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About Me
- New BBC Open Forum
- This forum was created to provide a place where those who are seriously concerned about the issues facing Bellevue Baptist Church and the SBC can come to comment and exchange ideas. Anonymous comments are welcome, but it is respectfully requested that instead of choosing the "Anonymous" option those who want to post comments without logging in select a unique screen name. This lets everyone tell the difference between one anon and another without revealing any personal information. Under the box where you compose your comment where it says "Choose an identity," just check "Name/URL" and type in the screen name of your choice. You can leave the URL field blank. It would be helpful if you'd use the same screen name for any subsequent comments. This makes reading and following discussions easier, helps avoid confusion, and doesn't result in one person being credited for writing something s/he didn't. Comments by posters whose only purpose is to disrupt (i.e. trolls) will be subject to deletion. Your cooperation will be appreciated.
444 comments:
«Oldest ‹Older 401 – 444 of 444I started out here by messin with ace and I guess yall too. I was just gonna leave it alone, but got to feeling bad about it, so I fessed up.
I'm glad I did, cause yall are some nice people...I aint met a whole lot of them since coming here
And yall got some real life church problems that probably aint gonna go away by talking bout'em here, but I can see how this could ease the mind a bit
I'd like to talk at yall again sometime if that'd be alright. You aint gotta talk back...I noticed most didn't; but every now and then I might say something that aint covered by my carnal nature, and you might hear it and not think so bad of it
all of grace
thanks, I'll check'em out...it's kinda cool to actually talk to someone who's read Pink...I have 200 copies of the ATTRIBUTES in storage back home...book store was gonna throw'em away-600 copies, done gave out 400
Mr. Gremillion- pronounced grim-e-yahn(silent n)? Man I thought that surely had to be a cajun name...I am very familiar with Opelousas, Washington, Plasianse, Eunice, Basile, Elton...Am I making you homesick? grew up in Allen, near Plainview...my people are real redbone Indians...came from near Creole...not much left
yall have some good sleep
John 20 talks about Thomas the doubter. Do you know what the difference is between being a doubter and a skeptic? Doubt is a resting place, skepticism is a permanent place. I preached at a nursing home for a year before I became a pastor. There are two kinds of people in the nursing home, sweet and skeptical. The sweet people lived a quiet life ( 1 Thess 4:11), loved the Lord and never said an unkind word about anyone, no matter how bad they have been mistreated.
The skeptical people lived lives of constant doubt about everyone and everything. We should all consider others as being more knowledgeable than ourselves (Phil 2:3)
The way a person retires at skepticism is focusing on their doubts too long. Eventually a doubter has to become like James and become a doer.
BBC is not going to have a monthly business meeting for 7000 people, close that doubt. If you try to corner him during church, you are going to affect his ability to deliver the message, which would not be of any benefit to anyone.
It sounds like they have these open door meetings on Sunday morning, but no one cares to attend them. Think about it...what message does tell the rest of the congregation about your efforts and concerns?
If only one person shows up, of course they are going to look like a rebellious person. It appears most people on this blog do not have positions of leadership or authority in their everyday lives so they want to take it out on the church.
Splitting hairs over a dinner meal, give me a break. Was it $39 or $49, who cares! A pastor is not perfect and obviously the some people that post to this blog has never led one single thing in their life, otherwise they would have more empathy for a leader that makes mistakes. Make no bones about it, if a person leads, there will always be those who will not agree. This why there is a leader, someone to lead the charge when there is confusion, and no one knows what direction to take.
A church this size can not be ran by consensus, a member either needs to see what the church is passionate about, and if that churches passion does not line up with theirs they need to find a church who shares their passion.
Some posters of this blog appear to be some overly concerned religious people, using the bible as their sword of choice, yet if they are such tremendous communicators of Gods truth, how come they are not in a teaching capacity and sharing this wonderful insight to a lost and dying world. People outside the church are clawing their way through darkness, trying to make sense of this thing called life.
Honestly, when someone posts a long post filled with scripture, I guarantee 99% of you scroll right past it because there is no dirt to chew on.
Ever heard the expression, can’t see the forest through the trees? It is human nature when we get too close to something we lose focus of the big picture, and our life gets distorted beyond the point of focusing on what is truly important.
If the church is ran by people with character flaws (which I am not saying it is or not) it will eventually blow up and become so easily recognizable for even the most marginal Christian will recognize the flaws. Just like Gamaliel’s advice in Act 5 38-39, if this church is ran by carnal men, nothing great will come of it, and it will become nothing. However, if it is of God, no blog or anyone else can overthrow it.
Get outside and enjoy life, be a blessing to others, share the love of Christ, serve the creator and master of the universe, He died for us, lets go tell the world about this great gift, who knows He might come back tonight.
Let me leave you with this advice, don’t stay in the doubt truck stop very long, the food will get you to the nursing home of skepticism faster than you care to get there.
Pastor: great post! truly great. you get the post of the year. very very well said
pastor,
you said...
"if this church is ran by carnal men, nothing great will come of it"
You are correct - but wouldn't we be disobedient to just stand by and watch it happen?
Did not Jesus and Paul warn us about the leaven?
Mark 8:15
15 And He was giving orders to them, saying, "Watch out! Beware of the leaven of the Pharisees and the leaven of Herod."
(NAS)
1 Cor 5:6-13
6 Your boasting is not good. Do you not know that a little leaven leavens the whole lump {of dough}
7 Clean out the old leaven, that you may be a new lump, just as you are {in fact} unleavened. For Christ our Passover also has been sacrificed.
8 Let us therefore celebrate the feast, not with old leaven, nor with the leaven of malice and wickedness, but with the unleavened bread of sincerity and truth.
11 But actually, I wrote to you not to associate with any so-called brother if he should be an immoral person, or covetous, or an idolater, or a reviler, or a drunkard, or a swindler-- not even to eat with such a one.
12 For what have I to do with judging outsiders? Do you not judge those who are within {the church}
13 But those who are outside, God judges. Remove the wicked man from among yourselves.
(NAS)
Gal 5:7-9
7 You were running well; who hindered you from obeying the truth?
8 This persuasion {did} not {come} from Him who calls you.
9 A little leaven leavens the whole lump {of dough.}
(NAS)
Andrew
Did you read it all?
Andrew,
I must be honest with you. I did scroll right past the scriptures.
You are correct as far as the leaven goes. But so what?
Live a quiet life, love the Lord, worship Him. You have doubts about the church, ok. Life is much too short to be leaven hounds.
I have a full plate just removing the leaven from my life: self centeredness, envy, selfish ambition, not being in a prayerful attitude often enough, thinking of myself before I think of others too often; the list could go on and on.
We have a golden retriever named Sandy and when she gets overly excited she starts chasing her tail in circles. If you will notice, the leaven hounds start chasing their tales and saying the same thing over and over again. Many times it is without the attitude of esteeming others better than ourself (Phil 2:3).
Thinking others are more knowledgable than me is a tough pill I had to swallow. I always want to be the expert because I have a maters degree in Theology from a major seminary. I have learned some of the most profound spiritual truths concerning scripture from folks with an eight grade education.
If being a leaven hound is your passion, go to it. Just make sure you got all the Galations 5 stuff going on also. I know in my life, when I became a leaven hound, i got depressed.
I'm not saying chasing your tail is a sin, it just doesnt get us out of the truck stop of doubt.
Pastor, is your heart at peace?
totally, why do you ask?
What you suggest would result in a conflict in my own heart.
Perhaps our hearts are different.
The size of the heart could be, but it is the same heart if it beats for the God man, Jesus Christ.
Ephesians 4 baby, all the way!
Andrew,
I believe you are correct, sir. Blackaby or someone like him is needed to come in and help resolve the conflict at BBC.
Perhaps one of James Dobson's staff would be willing to lead a "Weekend of reconciliation and healing."
Real revival could break out!
Who is the "Man of Peace" who will come and help in this time of need?
----------------------------------
In other news.....
It is my intention to foster some additional reflection on the FUMC donation issue.
Has anybody in this forum ever participated in non-denominational settings like Campus Crusade for Christ? Not everybody is on the Baptist road, people! And not everyone is on the Bellevue road, either.
What does 1 Corinthians 13 talk about?
Would it be alright if Bellevue helped out First Baptist Church in Memphis if their building were destroyed in a fire?
"Oh,......you are right. They are moderate. We cannot give to them."
Who qualifies for our charity and who doesn't?
The "so what?" attitude is what has already dragged some mainline denominations down in the last 20+ years. These days, in an everincreasing mindset of inclusiveness it seems we're becoming more and more willing to give up anything that distinguishes us as a denomination. The UMC, the PCUSA, and the Episcopal church of America, didn't wind up where they are now overnight...someone somewhere started saying "so what?" to some important issues...then over time, one compromise led to another till the current versions of these denominations bear no resemblance to what they once were or stood for. It would be foolish to think that the same thing can't happen to the SBC..or Bellevue.
A typical Baptist church today is made up of approximately 60% intentional Baptists and 40% unintentional Baptists. This will remain so for about the next twenty years.
The difference between the two is; intentional Baptists are Baptists because they have always been Baptist and they always will be Baptist no matter what. They will view the church as their "cause" and perhaps their social club, this is why many get attached to the buildings, programs etc. I would assume 85% of the intentional Baptist are probably unsaved, or at least have never shared their faith and brought someone to the Lord.
The unintentional Baptist are at the Baptist church because they have found a place to worship, get fed and to serve the Lord. These people dont care if the sign says Baptist or not.
These unintentional Baptists will simply leave if the church shifts direction or becomes over stifled with the intentional Baptists.
I am a SBC pastor, but I dont get involved with politics nor do I attend any of the meetings. I like the cooperative program, and think it makes a lot of sense, but remember each Baptist church is autonomous. There are too many lost and hurting folks out there that need the good news of Jesus Christ.
To All,
I haven't read any responses about my "convention type meeting" post yet. I need to ask you to pray for me today - I got some really serious health issues going on right now and would appreciate it if you'd keep in my prayer today.
Thanks! Karen
Has anyone ever given money to a beggar, and then thought later that the beggar might buy alcohol with it instead of food?
Why did you give that money? It was probably a "gut reaction" prompted by compassion in your heart for another human being.
Was your decision without risk? You couldn't control what the beggar did with the money. I believe God will honor your heart no matter what the one in need did with it.
"Freely you have received, so freely give."
I see a lot of Phariseeism rearing its ugly head about the FUMC donation issue. Remember the often quoted expression, "It's a might thin pancake that only has one side."
I believe that applies here as well.
Karen,
I've been a reader only thus far but I wanted you to know that I will be praying for you today.
I appreciate all you do and stand for. I've read many of your comments the past several weeks.
I'm not sure about your comment on the convention style meeting but I would suggest an outside neutral person who is an expert in the rules of running a meeting. If we could stick to set rules that are recognized such as "Roberts Rule of Order" or something similar, I think it would remain civil and be very productive.
I hope and pray for your needs today.
pastor,
Thank you for your posts on this blog. I have enjoyed reading them.
--
formerworkshipper,
I believe God will honor your heart no matter what the one in need did with it.
I have to agree with that! Good post!
--
Karen,
I need to ask you to pray for me today - I got some really serious health issues going on right now and would appreciate it if you'd keep in my prayer today.
Just said a prayer for you now. I hope all is well and that you get yourself better soon!
What we have folks is elder rule by a close knit group of power brokers. The congregation needs to be awakened to this. I agree with Bin Wonderin:
We need:
1. An apology to the congregation for mocking us at Union City. After all, some of us didn't fall off the cabbage truck yesterday!
2. An admission the cheerleader tickets are not a legit moving expense and reimbursement to BBC.
3. An admission Dr. Gaines should have never given $25k to FUMC and an explanation of policy changes to prevent a repeat.
4. A policy for open books on Holy land trips and no overcharging of members. Free tickets for the host and wife are fine but not for anybody else
5. A monthly business meeting with open mike Q&A with each committee chairman. Transcripts on the web within a week;
6. A transparent committee selection process.
7. A good updated set of bylaws similar to GBC.
8. The signing of a public conflict of interest form for any member that has any business contract to provide services to the church. These people should be recused from committees that review bids for their services.
9. No church credit cards. Pay your own way and then turn in an expense report like I do at my job.
AND I would like to add...
10. A business meeting in accord with Matthew 18 to deal with the issues that remain related to Mark Sharpe and "the Dream"... AND any other loose ends that should have been dealt with months ago!!
11. The END of heavy handed dealing with ministers, staff, and members.
12. A whistle blower policy for ministers, staff, and members. Also:
13. Full disclosure of ministerial compensation: salary + benefit breakdown, etc.
14. Much greater congregational oversight of the current budget with a transparent policy for consideration of non-budgeted expenditures exceeding a reasonable amount.
15. Forgiveness for those in leadership who have allowed this to deteriorate to this point--AND consequences for their actions.
Revival, reform, congregational oversight... for there is level ground at Calvary and "he who would be great among you shall be the servant of all."
Martin Luther refers to Matthew 18
Address to the Christian Nobility
of the German Nation
(1520)
The Romanists have, with great adroitness, drawn three walls round themselves, with which they have hitherto protected themselves, so that no one could reform them, whereby all Christendom has fallen terribly.
First, if pressed by the temporal power, they have affirmed and maintained that the temporal power has no jurisdiction over them, but, on the contrary, that the spiritual power is above the temporal.
Secondly, if it were proposed to admonish them with the Scriptures, they objected that no one may interpret the Scriptures but the Pope.
Thirdly, if they are threatened with a council, they pretend that no one may call a council but the Pope ...
Now may God help us, and give us one of those trumpets that overthrew the walls of Jericho, so that we may blow down these walls of straw and paper, and that we may set free our Christian rods for the chastisement of sin, and expose the craft and deceit of the devil, so that we may amend ourselves by punishment and again obtain God's favour.
.... The third wall falls of itself, as soon as the first two have fallen; for if the Pope acts contrary to the Scriptures, we are bound to stand by the Scriptures to punish and to constrain him, according to Christ's commandment . 'tell it unto the Church' (Matt. xviii. 15-17). . . . If then I am to accuse him before the Church, I must collect the Church together. . . .Therefore when need requires, and the Pope is a cause of offence to Christendom, in these cases whoever can best do so, as a faithful member of the whole body, must do what he can to procure a true free council.
By the way... "Pastor"
I found your posts to be arrogant and your confident assertion about no business meetings in the future might be of interest to your own church congregation... Which one was that? I don't believe you told us? Bellevue should have quarterly business meetings at a minimum--with advance notice given to the membership and no heavy-handed treatment of members.
I have had to muck my way through the posts for a couple of days because of two continual problems named ACE AND HISSERVANT and alias friends.
Morning, noon, and night they suck the life out of this blog.
They are Blog Vampires for the lack of a better description.
Why not set them up with their own blog and let anyyone who wants to converse with them, go to them so those who really have serious concerns don`t have to wade through their repulsive and ignorant posts.
Why are we playing into their rope-a-dope tactics????
Haven`t the sheep been beat enough?
Shepherd of this blog, please consider this ongoing problem and ban the disingenuous among us like ACE and HISSERVANT.
formerworkshipper posted: : Real revival could break out!
REPLY: you are right, but that will not be because we have some speaker or someone that comes in to lead a weekend. true revival will not happen until we are truly broken before God. we do not need one of those old fashion revivals that last a one weekend and then everything goes back the way it was. we must be broken before God and remove all the self and flesh that is in each of our lives. we must truly be dead people. we must truly die to self. search this board and see what percentage of the "issues" are related to self and flesh.
"Pastor" said:
"Let me leave you with this advice, don’t stay in the doubt truck stop very long, the food will get you to the nursing home of skepticism faster than you care to get there."
May I offer some advice in return. We are to love God and our neighbor as ourself. Love your people. I mean really love your people. Real love listens. Real love cares about the elderly in a congregation who were grieving over the loss of their former pastor only to look up and find that their church of a lifetime was being buried also.
In your posts I heard tinkling gong and clanging cymbol... Real love doesn't imply that the posters here have no positions of leadership outside of the church. That is the same "white-collar," "inner-circle" Bellevue mentality that has the current leadership circling the wagons now.
Pastor: thank you for your very wise words and posting on here.
25+yrs: i would ask you to search these great "lists" that you keep posting. they are full of self and flesh. they are YOUR "ideas" and your thoughts. your "list" will never exist at Bellevue Baptist Church and I am thankful for that. you have the nerve to say that post by Pastor and others are arrogant. you need to search your own and YOUR list of the way YOU think things should be run.
Christ love is represented by very very few on this blog. We are to Love one another. Period. you can use every excuse you want, but the fact is 90% of the posts on this blog are not in Love. the posts are about self and what you want and what you think is best etc etc etc.
formerworkshipper,
I personally don't just give money to a beggar...for the reasons you mentioned..many will ask for money under the guise of being hungry..when confronted with that situation I offer to go and buy some food..which meets a practical need without leaving money which could be used for something destructive..I've found that most, when made that offer..say no thanks.
praying4ewe,
I addressed what you're saying earlier...give me a list of companies that don't support such things and that's where I'll take my business..like I said before...many corporations hide what they support under layers of divisions, offshoot companies, etc...we all have to buy the necessities of life...if we have a choice based on information great....Bellevue was not under compulsion or need to give money to a church whose pastor openly supports things which we preach against...an alternative to cash may have been to let Impact ministries take over the distribution of clothing and food since that's the one ministry they have that we can agree with...rather than leaving the use of cash to their own devices...again I think your logic doesn't fit in this case. Respectfully.
hisservent-1,
On the contrary, love is what is prompting us to take a stand against the evils that are attacking the church. Who is the father of lies? We know there have been many that have flowed from our leadership.
To protect what you have hisservent-1, which would be power, access to a lot of money, the ability to make decisions without the knowledge of the congregation, etc., you once again attack and accuse good people for doing wrong. This again is a tactic Satan uses to deceive.
Satan uses two methods to destroy what is good. Lies and accusations against good. We have seen this over and over recently by a lot of our leadership.
The lies are well documented and the attacks on good people are well documented. You, ACE, and jcuitt need to stop this now. You are tearing Bellevue apart.
"Pastor" said:
"The difference between the two is; intentional Baptists are Baptists because they have always been Baptist and they always will be Baptist no matter what. They will view the church as their "cause" and perhaps their social club, this is why many get attached to the buildings, programs etc. I would assume 85% of the intentional Baptist are probably unsaved, or at least have never shared their faith and brought someone to the Lord."
Response: That has to be the broadest libel I have read in a long time. To say that those who are Baptist by conviction are 85% unsaved and view their church as a social club.
"Pastor"-- Many of those you labelled in this way are Baptist because they believe that our denomination is the closest to scripture. They believe that there are some things important enough to have convictions about.
If you want the ones who are "unintentional" then you want a shallow church that just passively goes with the flow.
All in my opinion of course.
Martin Luther refers to Matthew 18
Address to the Christian Nobility
of the German Nation
(1520)
The Romanists have, with great adroitness, drawn three walls round themselves, with which they have hitherto protected themselves, so that no one could reform them, whereby all Christendom has fallen terribly.
First, if pressed by the temporal power, they have affirmed and maintained that the temporal power has no jurisdiction over them, but, on the contrary, that the spiritual power is above the temporal.
Secondly, if it were proposed to admonish them with the Scriptures, they objected that no one may interpret the Scriptures but the Pope.
Thirdly, if they are threatened with a council, they pretend that no one may call a council but the Pope ...
Now may God help us, and give us one of those trumpets that overthrew the walls of Jericho, so that we may blow down these walls of straw and paper, and that we may set free our Christian rods for the chastisement of sin, and expose the craft and deceit of the devil, so that we may amend ourselves by punishment and again obtain God's favour.
.... The third wall falls of itself, as soon as the first two have fallen; for if the Pope acts contrary to the Scriptures, we are bound to stand by the Scriptures to punish and to constrain him, according to Christ's commandment . 'tell it unto the Church' (Matt. xviii. 15-17). . . . If then I am to accuse him before the Church, I must collect the Church together. . . .Therefore when need requires, and the Pope is a cause of offence to Christendom, in these cases whoever can best do so, as a faithful member of the whole body, must do what he can to procure a true free council.
swtt posted: On the contrary, love is what is prompting us to take a stand against the evils that are attacking the church. Who is the father of lies? We know there have been many that have flowed from our leadership.
REPLY: that is your definition of Love, NOT God's. I see very little "love" on this board. very very little. it is sad that you claim the slander, rumors, attacks etc etc etc on the blog and other places is love.
To protect what you have hisservent-1, which would be power, access to a lot of money, the ability to make decisions without the knowledge of the congregation, etc., you once again attack and accuse good people for doing wrong. This again is a tactic Satan uses to deceive.
REPLY: what you talking about? you have NO clue I am and I am far from what you described above. "good people". what does "good" mean? I do not want to be good, I want to be broken before God and spirit filled. the evidence is all over this blog and you can not change that. the actions and words from the "good people" on this board tell a great deal.
Satan uses two methods to destroy what is good. Lies and accusations against good. We have seen this over and over recently by a lot of our leadership.
REPLY: WOW. you might try looking in the mirror.
The lies are well documented and the attacks on good people are well documented. You, ACE, and jcuitt need to stop this now. You are tearing Bellevue apart
REPLY: wow again! you must be joking. you have VERY few facts and lots and lots of rumors, lies,personal attacks, slander, libel etc etc. we are the ones tearing Bellevue apart??
25+yrs,
If you have time, would you interpret the Lutheran quote and apply it to the current situation so I can understand your point? I have to admit I'm confused.
You've posted it 3 times, so you obviously feel it's important to understand.
Thank you.
SR wrote:
"25+yrs,
If you have time, would you interpret the Lutheran quote and apply it to the current situation so I can understand your point? I have to admit I'm confused.
You've posted it 3 times, so you obviously feel it's important to understand."
Response: SR, some have been calling for Mt. 18 since the beginning of these problems related to Mark Sharpe, Riad Saba, etc. Others have said either that Mt. 18 had not been followed, did not apply, or did not apply to the pastor. But, no one is above the Word of God.
The quotation comes from a time when there was a similar problem. Luther brought charges against the Pope; however, in Luther's day the Pope controlled any attmpt to bring about a free, impartial forum to resolve the differences that existed. The Pope said that he was above the tempral law, or that his interpretation of the scripture was the true interpretation, or when any attempt was made to call a council the Pope claimed to be the only one with power to call a council.
Bellevue is in a similar mess. There may be legal matters that need to be dealt with. There are those saying that Mt. 18 is not the way to handle these problems. All that is happening seems to be the current leader(s) blocking attempts at a scriptural forum.
Luther believed that it was necessary for true believers to do whatever was in their power to see to it that such a scriptural, free, forum that would seek the truth be established.
Since the biblcal process was short-circuited by leadership, similar forums have popped up on the internet.
Still, we need Mt. 18 to be exercised. And we need regular, quarterly business meetings so that the membership does not remain voiceless. In my opinion as usual.
Martin Luther refers to Matthew 18
Address to the Christian Nobility
of the German Nation
(1520)
The Romanists have, with great adroitness, drawn three walls round themselves, with which they have hitherto protected themselves, so that no one could reform them, whereby all Christendom has fallen terribly.
First, if pressed by the temporal power, they have affirmed and maintained that the temporal power has no jurisdiction over them, but, on the contrary, that the spiritual power is above the temporal.
Secondly, if it were proposed to admonish them with the Scriptures, they objected that no one may interpret the Scriptures but the Pope.
Thirdly, if they are threatened with a council, they pretend that no one may call a council but the Pope ...
Now may God help us, and give us one of those trumpets that overthrew the walls of Jericho, so that we may blow down these walls of straw and paper, and that we may set free our Christian rods for the chastisement of sin, and expose the craft and deceit of the devil, so that we may amend ourselves by punishment and again obtain God's favour.
.... The third wall falls of itself, as soon as the first two have fallen; for if the Pope acts contrary to the Scriptures, we are bound to stand by the Scriptures to punish and to constrain him, according to Christ's commandment . 'tell it unto the Church' (Matt. xviii. 15-17). . . . If then I am to accuse him before the Church, I must collect the Church together. . . .Therefore when need requires, and the Pope is a cause of offence to Christendom, in these cases whoever can best do so, as a faithful member of the whole body, must do what he can to procure a true free council.
Simply put SR... We need to pray for God to take away the walls erected by leadership, and grant us a forum so that real reform and revival can begin.
What we have folks is elder rule by a close knit group of power brokers. The congregation needs to be awakened to this. I agree with Bin Wonderin:
We need:
1. An apology to the congregation for mocking us at Union City. After all, some of us didn't fall off the cabbage truck yesterday!
2. An admission the cheerleader tickets are not a legit moving expense and reimbursement to BBC.
3. An admission Dr. Gaines should have never given $25k to FUMC and an explanation of policy changes to prevent a repeat.
4. A policy for open books on Holy land trips and no overcharging of members. Free tickets for the host and wife are fine but not for anybody else
5. A quarterly business meeting with open mike Q&A with each committee chairman. Transcripts on the web within a week;
6. A transparent committee selection process.
7. A good updated set of bylaws similar to GBC.
8. The signing of a public conflict of interest form for any member that has any business contract to provide services to the church. These people should be recused from committees that review bids for their services.
9. No church credit cards. Pay your own way and then turn in an expense report like I do at my job.
AND I would like to add...
10. A business meeting in accord with Matthew 18 to deal with the issues that remain related to Mark Sharpe and "the Dream"... AND any other loose ends that should have been dealt with months ago!!
11. The END of heavy handed dealing with ministers, staff, and members.
12. A whistle blower policy for ministers, staff, and members. Also:
13. Full disclosure of ministerial compensation: salary + benefit breakdown, etc.
14. Much greater congregational oversight of the current budget with a transparent policy for consideration of non-budgeted expenditures exceeding a reasonable amount.
15. Forgiveness for those in leadership who have allowed this to deteriorate to this point--AND consequences for their actions.
Revival, reform, congregational oversight... for there is level ground at Calvary and "he who would be great among you shall be the servant of all."
Sister Pam and Brother Charles,
We are so glad to hear you have been reconciled with Minister Long. I agree with you that it is time to move on now. Glory to God!!!!
Real Ace,
No I didn't personally ask Bro. Jim but my husband and I saw him a few weeks ago and we hugged him and I of course had to cry because that is what I do best. I didn't feel a need to ask him directly because I have heard the EXACT same story from several people who have spoken directly to him. The exact words have been spoken to me more than twice from several people who told me they spoke to him and these people don't even know each other so it wasn't like they were consulting one another. I know this still won't placate you. I would suggest that anyone who is reading this blog and doesn't believe any of this should go to these people themselves and not rely on what anyone else says. I am confident in my sources. If you aren't, then please feel free to go to the real source.
And while we are on this topic, for anyone who is newer to the blog and isn't too sure about Mark Sharpe's testimony, I would like to assure you that his story NEVER changes either. I have been here from the very beginning and he tells the same story every time. Most of the time when someone is lying their story will change over and over. Just something to think about. And no I don't know him. I was concerned about the direction we were heading long before Mark Sharpe ever spoke up. Mark, if you are reading today, I want to let you know that my husband and I saw you at the same dinner where we spoke to Bro. Jim. We wanted to meet and shake hands with you but you were talking to several people. So consider me to be shaking your hand right now!!!! God Bless all of you.
Diana Hart
In spite of Sister Pam's request that you delete your comments from the other thread, I'd like to respectfully request that you leave them for now. Pending permission from Pam, I'd like to start a new topic tonight and the contents of that thread are needed so that it will be in the proper context.
Thank you,
NBBCOF
To the "pastor" who inferred none of us posting were church leaders, let me assure you that my husband and I were servants when we were at Bellevue. I worked with children in SS for 5 years and also in the Summersing program (another wonderful program that has been scrapped) for 3 summers I think. We were also very faithful members of the Sanctuary Choir for 6 years or so and my husband was a member of the "pit choir" for at least 4 years. We left because we were continually disgusted by what was going on and I couldn't sit through any service without being nauseated. Let's just say discernment takes many forms. I have heard Mark Sharpe speak of nausea as well. I understand that pastors feel we are dumping on ours because many of you have been dumped on by your congregations. I don't think ANY of us started out ready to dump on anyone. Most of the posters have stated they sought to love Steve from the beginning. None of us want to go through this. Mark Sharpe did not ask for this nor did he start it. Neither did any of us. If it were up to all of us, just for the sake of our health we would call the whole thing off! We are doing what God is leading us to do. And we have stated here before if you didn't live it then you have no idea. Please don't pretend like you do.
Now we have posters such as Sister Pam and Karen speaking of health problems. I can tell you I went to the doctor last week for chronic stomach problems. I think it has to do with stress over this situation not seeming to have any end! All these people want is a meeting with protections in place and they have been repeatedly denied. And yes, Ace, I did hear that out of Mark's mouth. Of course he is nothing but a liar so it doesn't matter if I heard it or not, it still isn't true. Tell you what, you believe what you want and I'll believe what I want. I choose to believe Mark because what he says goes along with everything I've been feeling since October 2005. Yes, an entire YEAR ago. This has been dragging on forever.
Respectfully,
Diana Hart
Diana Hart,
The point you made about Mark Sharpe's story remainging constant was very, very good. I had not considered that before.
It is interesting how the information that we receive from our church leaders is a constantly evolving and endless stream of useless information.It reminds me of a three year old, who will only confess when there is no other alternative. Amazing that we have leadership behaving like three year old children.
25+yrs,
Thank you for explaining what you meant. You certainly have a good grasp of church history during the Reformation.
If I can grab a couple of your statements,
But, no one is above the Word of God.
Quite true. The Pope is not above the Word of God. However, Luther apparently thought he was. Although he later recanted, he sat in judgement of the Scriptures and tore pages out of God's Word that didn't suit his own purposes.
Luther believed that it was necessary for true believers to do whatever was in their power to see to it that such a scriptural, free, forum that would seek the truth be established.
Luther did not consider all scripture to be of equal value. Any forum he sought after could not have been scriptural in the sense you and I meant. As Baptists we believe that all scripture is God breathed and useful.
God's Word is the only solution to our troubles. Luther's words are powerful, but I don't think powerful enough to solve our problems. If we follow God's complete Word, victory is assured. If we don't learn from history, more destruction will come.
BTW, 25+yrs, I like the way you usually qualify your posts with "in my opinion". Anything I write is of course my opinion as well.
I will join you in praying for those who are appointed our church leaders.
Grace.
diana,
A few things 'pastor' wrote lead me to believe him to be a younger man. I don't think he realized he was judging us. We should pray for him and his congregation.
RESTORE JIM WHITMIRE TO HIS GOD ANOINTED POSITION AS BELLEVUE`S MUSIC MINISTER AND GIVE HIM BACK WHAT BELLEVUE STOLE FROM HIM
sr,
I am younger as well. No excuse. One thing I left out in my response to "pastor" is that my husband and I also left a church where the pastor was demonized from the minute he walked in the door. I do not believe in demonizing anyone and I will not stand by while God's anointed is treated like dirt. However, Steve has brought all this on himself by not having a real meeting with all the real players who have repeatedly asked for a meeting. I don't think it is an unreasonable request.
Thank you for your input sr. I agree with you that we should pray for him and his congregation as well. I wish him well in all he endeavors to do.
Diana
I bet this was good TV! At the TN Baptist Convention last week, some interesting exchanges took place. Rather than reprint excerpts from the lengthy article here, just scroll down about 2/3 of the way to the paragraph that begins with...
"In a show of strength from conservatives dissatisfied with the convention's leadership, messengers questioned the financial loyalty of some proposed nominees' churches to the SBC."
I found the reference a few paragraphs later to Bellevue's 1.54% giving percentage to the Cooperative Program to be well... interesting.
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