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- New BBC Open Forum
- This forum was created to provide a place where those who are seriously concerned about the issues facing Bellevue Baptist Church and the SBC can come to comment and exchange ideas. Anonymous comments are welcome, but it is respectfully requested that instead of choosing the "Anonymous" option those who want to post comments without logging in select a unique screen name. This lets everyone tell the difference between one anon and another without revealing any personal information. Under the box where you compose your comment where it says "Choose an identity," just check "Name/URL" and type in the screen name of your choice. You can leave the URL field blank. It would be helpful if you'd use the same screen name for any subsequent comments. This makes reading and following discussions easier, helps avoid confusion, and doesn't result in one person being credited for writing something s/he didn't. Comments by posters whose only purpose is to disrupt (i.e. trolls) will be subject to deletion. Your cooperation will be appreciated.
254 comments:
1 – 200 of 254 Newer› Newest»Friends,
Just thinking about you and Bellevue and the challenge you have before you.
I appreciate Jim Whitmire's sons’ thoughts. As I reflected on what he wrote, and when I think of Bellevue’s wonderful past...and all the memories you all have...remember no matter how things turn out, if there is the much needed revival and restoration or not, you have such rich memories!
Now please don't read this as conciliatory or council to throw in the towel etc....just realize that the Church isn't a series of buildings located at 2000 Appling Road. It’s you, it's me, it's every Blood bought child of God!
And we know that God's word teaches us that as much is possible for you, live at peace with all men. Sometimes peace is illusive, but warm, comforting, memories of Bellevue will remain.
I am still praying for a miracle, and a new beginning, for everyone involved...and of course the Church will continue, because it belongs to Jesus.
It might not be what you remember....but what you remember...will stay with you until we all see Jesus.
To me...there's a lot of comfort in that!
25+ years,
Interesting word "agenda" that you used in your 11:58 pm post from yesterday. I used that term in a letter I wrote to the pastor in February. He was kind enough to write back and among other things, tell me he doesn't have an agenda. Now you are using the word agenda. hmmmmmm.............
Diana
Does anyone know of the Tennessee Nonprofit Tax Act of 1998? I may be wrong on the year.
It's my understanding that in cases of nonprofits including churches that havn't updated their bylaws in the past 50 years, this set of bylaws steps in on any area the old bylaws don't address. Since our bylaws at BBC haven't been updated in 79 years, I would think this new set of bylaws will determine what can and can't be done at Bellevue. I've seen the 3/4 page document that is supposed to be the whole set of bylaws and there isn't anything to them. You can read them if you go to the savingbellevue.com site and enter into the sight and then go to Church Government.
Any legaleagles out there that would know.
This may address the problem of every man (handful of men) doing what's right in his own eyes.
I am across the country for a while, but will be returning next year. I have been at Bellevue since I was 4. I was married there, and worked in the nursery. I still do when I visit. I have been out of the loop for a couple of years, though, for the most part. I am deeply, DEEPLY saddened by all of this. I check the saving Bellevue site regularly, and truly see the Light in Mark Sharpe's points, among others. I am praying over the situation. I would love to recongregate at Bellevue when we return, but I may have to consider Germantown, or something, as many others have. Thank you all for writing these things so that I have been able to know what has been going on.
In Him,
Jessica Harvey Fiveash
WOUNDEDANDBLEEDING said...
Dear Ones,
Good Morning and loving greetings to you in the powerful name of Jesus, who is worthy to be praised!
I just wanted to recount the truth concerning the apology from the good deacon to the Whitmires.
In a quest for truth. Brother Charles and I made a decision to talk directly to brothers and sisters who were directly involved in any allegation that came to our attention.
During that time we spoke with one of the officer deacons and ask him to please tell us the truth about Brother Whitwire`s retirement and why he left Bellevue.
The deacon gave us much information in that conversation.
We then went directly to the Whitmire`s and found out that the information was incorrect.
We went back to the good deacon and told him that he was giving out false information and reminded him how important it was to be truthful in all things.
The good deacon told us that he thought he was being truthful.
We assured him that the information he was giving was false.
He spoke to the Whitmire`s directly.
After he spoke to the Whitmires, he let us know that he was indeed giving out false information and that he had never known the truth about the Whitmires.
We ask him if he was going to reconcile with his brother before he took the LORD`s supper, which was coming soon and the next day he shared that he had gone over to the Whitmire`s home and apologized in person.
When we learned this, we asked him if he was going to go to the other Bellevue Leaders and to the pastor to share that he had learned the truth about Brother Whitmire and ask them to do as he did, which was to reconcile with their brother. He said he was going to do just that.
We had great hopes and expectations that this good deacon would go and confront other brothers and sisters at the church and that everyone who was involved in abusing Brother Whitmire and his family would soon come forth. one by one, in true humility to admit what they had done, that it was wrong and then apologize to the Whitmires and to the congregation for the multitude of sins laid upon our dear Brother, Jim Whitmire and his family. We also expected apologies for passing along rumors and false informaion, and for willingly deceiving the entire congregation to come forth, but we have never heard from the good deacon again.
His apology was a personal apology for him giving out false information and perhaps things he did not share with us.
We were very blessed wirh the deacon`s apology but we also want to be quick to point out that no one should mistake the deacon`s personal apology for anything more than it was. Remember no one can apologize for another person`s sin.
We have the letters to prove everything I have written here and I am sure Josh can confirm that what I am sharing is the truth.
I hope that this adds some light to the deacon`s apology to the Whitmires.
Under HIS wings and in HIS love,
Sister Pam
12:11 PM, November 29, 2006
ace said...
JOshua Whitmire,
Steve Gaines wanted to bring Jamie Parker along as soon as he could, so my father decided to retire 6 months early.
Perhaps you can clear up something here. 1) Did your father decide to retire 6 months on his own will? or 2) Was he forced to retire 6 months earlier than planned?
You used the term 'decided to retire' like it was his decision and I want to make sure I'm understanding you correctly on that.
Thanks for your post, by the way!
12:19 PM, November 29, 2006
25+yrs@bbc said...
Ace... You conveniently left off the part of the quotation that explained the obvious.
JoshuaDavidWhitmire said:
"Second, My father was NOT planning on retiring long before Steve Gaines came to Bellevue. The family always talked long ago with my father that one day, after Dr. Rogers retired, that the new pastor might want to bring in his own Minister of Music. This is a fact that happens all the time with churches. My father was planning on retiring in June of this year. Steve Gaines wanted to bring Jamie Parker along as soon as he could, so my father decided to retire 6 months early."
12:35 PM, November 29, 2006
Comment Deleted
This post has been removed by the author.
12:45 PM, November 29, 2006
WOUNDEDANDBLEEDING said...
I greet you again in Jesus` holy name!
On November 7th, Brother Charles and I brought our concerns about the racial remarks alleged to one of ministers at our church, to the attention of Pastor Steve, Deacon Chairman Chuck Taylor, and Deacon Secretary Mark Spiller and to date, we have recieved no reply from anyone.
We called the brother minister who allegedly made racial remarks and he said he has never spoken one racial word to anyone.
He also said that he does not know who the man that made these allegations could possibly be.
The man who made these allegations did so in a public way.
He said he was on staff at Bellevue for 6 years.
He said that this minister and I think one other minister were speaking in a prejudice manner towards African Americans.
He said he has witnesses.
Brother Charles amd I minister in West Africa, we have African children, but even if we didn`t we would still find these allegations offensive and worthy of investigation.
We want to proceed with trying to clear this up because it is the right thing to do.
We want to believe the Bellevue minister but if this man has proof of these allegations, we would like for him to bring it forward.
If it was not true, we would like for him to remove the brothers name from his open letter to the public.
If anyone knows the identity of the man who was on staff for 6 years, who made these allegations, we would greatly appreciate you letting us know so we can go to him in person and in love work towards truth and reconciliation for the Glory of GOD alone.
12:56 PM, November 29, 2006
Flatfoot said...
I heard that Mark Sharpe was not an "active" deacon at the time this all started to boil. As I understand, deacons serve a 3 year term, then they go inactive for a time period. If anyone knows, including Mr. Sharpe, please answer, and then explain what an inactive deacons does. Thanks
1:09 PM, November 29, 2006
WOUNDEDANDBLEEDING said...
Dear Brothers and Sisters in Jesus, we were so blessed that the pastor apologized to Brother Mark Sharpe for his Hezzbolah remark and for trespassing private property!
His apology is a wonderful step toward complete reconciliation with our dear brother Mark!
We would like to encourage the pastor to take the rest of the steps that are required before true reconciliation can be celebrated.
One of those remaining steps is for Brother Mark Sharpe to be restored to his previous position as deacon.
It will be a wonderful day when all parties who have offended our brother, should come forth to apologize and be totally reconciled with him and his family.
We can not continue to take the LORD`s supper with all of these issues unresolved and without reconciliation among the brethren.
Let`s do the right thing today and get all of these issues under the Blood of Christ.
1:24 PM, November 29, 2006
swtt said...
flatfoot,
A deacon serves for 3 years at Bellevue and then automatically rotates off for 1 year. I believe that is what you are referring to as innactive. This is done as to not burn a deacon out by overworking them. The duties are to counsel in the services, man the telephone lines when people call during the televised services, and serve the Lord's Supper.
Once your 1 year of being innactive is over, you are then offered an opportunity to return as a deacon as long as you still meet the qualifications of a deacon. The deacon and his wife are interviewed by a team of deacons who are on the Deacon nominating interview committee.
This is the committee that John Caldwill has chaired for the past 10 years in a row. There have been deacons in the past several years that have complained about John serving as chairman of this committee for this long but only to deaf ears. In fact, John Caldwill actually served as this chairman several years ago while he was the actual chairman of the deacons. This position is a very powerful position to have because they control who gets to be a deacon and who does not. John Caldwill also has a tremendous amount of power for not asking deacons back on to serve.
Once you are elected to be a deacon at Bellevue and any other SBC church, you are always a deacon for that church. You may not be an active deacon, but as long as you are a member of the church, you are considered a deacon. For years, inactive deacons were always invited to Dr. Rogers birthday party each year even if they hadn't been active for years.
If you are removed as a deacon, it's my understanding you have to be brought before the church body and be voted off.
Your question as to what does an inactive deacon do is probably that he enjoys the time off by not having to come to meetings or have to answer the telephone calls when people call in.
I think people are getting hung up on active vs. inactive. I don't think anyone ever said Mark Sharpe was kicked off being an active deacon. Ask Mark Sharpe and he'll tell you that Mark Dougharty just said "you are no longer a deacon at Belleuve any longer. Mark Dougharty knew Mark Sharpe wasn't active when he made that statement".
I don't beleive Mark Dougharty has the authority to remove any deacon from his position at Bellevue whether they are active or inactive.
I hope this clears things up for you flatfoot.
By the way, why do you call yourself flatfoot?
1:37 PM, November 29, 2006
Flatfoot said...
yes it does clear up some things, thank you.
and: FLATFOOT
Definition: slang for investigator
Synonyms: G-man, P.I., Sherlock Holmes*, agent, analyst, beagle, bird dog*, bloodhound*, bull*, constable, cop, copper, eye*, fed*, ferret, fink*, flatfoot*, fly ball, gumshoe*, informer, nark*, peeper*, plainclothesman, policeman, private eye, private investigator, prosecutor, reporter, roper, scout, sergeant, shadow*, shagger, shamus*, shoofly*, sleuth, slewfoot*, snoop*, spy, tail*
1:44 PM, November 29, 2006
New BBC Open Forum said...
OKAY, EVERYBODY! TIME TO TIE A KNOT IN THIS ONE AND MOVE TO THE NEXT TOPIC (AT THE TOP).
Thank you,
NBBCOF
1:50 PM, November 29, 2006
Diana Hart said...
Flatfoot,
cJesusnme wasn't being sarcastic. I am referring to a post from last night. She(he?) was being serious. Have you read Sister Pam Gremillion's posts? She and her husband have been trying to get in touch with Steve for maybe months now. At least weeks. He seems to be unreachable. I'm remembering a time several months ago when a senior relative of mine spoke to Steve and told him she needed some counseling. I think she said he told her he didn't have time for that. I don't suppose he does but would it have killed him to offer her some support and maybe mention someone's name who could counsel with her? Maybe offer to pray with her? He was going to show us how to pray after all. Let's get real here. And I'm not being sarcastic either. I'm being quite serious. And no I didn't hear this from my sister in law's cousin's uncle. I heard it from this senior relative herself.
Diana
2:02 PM, November 29, 2006
swtt said...
I am not sure if I understand everything in your post.
Are you saying that Mark Sharpe did not say he was kicked off the deacon body?
Sister Pam,
Thank you for going the sources you've persued for the truth. I agree that if we continue to gripe and moan, nothing will be accomplished. I REALLY admire Josh Whitmire for his post last night (thanks for your email, Josh!) I am praying and focusing on Jesus this week in the hope that Sunday night's church service will be a big step towards healing our church.
For those of you who wish to answer: If Steve Gaines shows true humily and a broken spirit on Sunday, will that be enough for you? Of course repentance (turning away) will have to be evident. I've never wanted him to leave; there are others in the leadership that I believe will continue on the same path of dividing the church into these "camps" so some of the leadership needs to change, but I don't think Steve needs to leave.
Any thoughts? And remember to be kind to each other; you don't know who's reading. :)
Thanks! Karen
blessmewiththetruth,
I'm sorry to confuse you. Mark S said Mark Dougharty told him he was kicked off the deacon roll at Bellevue. Mark Sharpe said Mark Dougharty told him he was no longer a deacon. Mark Sharpe asked him on who's authority he was speaking and Mark Dougharty would not give him an answer. That's when Mark Sharpe said he told Mark Dougharty he didn't have the authority to do that because only the church can remove someone from being a deacon at Bellevue.
Hope this helps.
Karen,
I will pray for repentance from the leadership, especially Steve Gaines, however I will be very cautious in regards to the words vs deeds. He has been know to speak "convenient truths". The proof is in the puddin as the old folks say:)
Karen,
To answer your question, if there is humility, brokenness, and repentance on Sunday then my family will absolutely wholeheartedly forgive and move on with our life at BBC. BUT, if we see another apology that is along the lines of the "itty bitty fence" apology or another "informational meeting"....then we will not be returning to Bellevue. It's the three strikes and you're out thing. AND, if ANYBODY gets up there and speaks on behalf of Dr. Gaines while he is sitting on the platform or in the congregation for that matter, then we will not be returning either. Dr. Gaines MUST do this by himself. But, we are all just speculating that there will be an apology and a move toward healing on Sunday. I guess we will see.
And Josh Whitmire, if you're still reading this.....BLESS YOU and YOUR FAMILY!!!! You have NO idea what you mean to me and my family. Thank you for having the courage to speak up - I know this has been hard for you to "sit back and watch" and I am so thankful you found the courage to do so.
Did anyone notice that Mark Sharpe's name is absent from the "Lay Ministries 2006-2007" booklet that was handed out at Sunday's (11/26/06) CC meeting Look on page 2 "Active Deacons Years in Which Terms Expire" - the year's listed are 2006, 2007, 2008 - if Mark Sharpe was an active deacon in 2006, should not his name be listed? The booklet was published in 11/06. Draw your own conclsion. I'm just curious...
Karen
If the pastor admits ALL of the lies he has told, and ALL of the deception he has used to manipulate all of us with, and All of the intimidation tacics he has used to make other bend to his will, and All of the mean hateful words he has spoken in and out of meetings and in and out of church about all of us, and IF he admits that he was wrong to take money from the church for moving expenses when cheerleading expenses are definintly not moving expenses, and he admits it was wrong of him to cause many of his flock to stumble, stray, and scatter because of his own words and things that he has done, and If he admits that it was wrong for him to have ever used the church credit cards for any personal use, and if he admits it was wrong to allow others in leadership to tell lies to others when he knew they were lying, and if and if and if and if...........this list to so long that I will stop here.
And having done all of the above IF he then admits that he is unworthy to be a Shepherd of anyone`s pasture and he agrees to step down for counseling
AND
Order ALL financial books to be open to a group chosen by the church body
AND
IF he makes personal reconcilitaion with ALL of those he has personally offended
AND
then asks for forgiveness and repents.
I think Bellevue can be restored.
Oh and one more thing, Karen, I agree with you. I have never wanted Dr. Gaines to leave. I believe if he did, we would still have the problems we are having today. I believe the "behind the scenes" issues, so to speak, have to do with our poor leadership that was here before Dr. Gaines came. The timing of Dr. Gaines coming and Dr. Rogers passing away was terrible (understatement), for lack of a better word. It seems to me that our leadership may have "spread their wings" to be able to do things that Dr. Rogers would never have allowed to happen. But since the timing of his death and the timing of Dr. Gaines coming here was so close, it looks like it was all of Dr. Gaines' doing. Am I making sense?
NASS, forgive me for jumping in off topic.
Sister Pam:
I am not going to reveal my name and I have my own security as well as that of my family to be concerned with. This is neither exaggeration or deceit. While I have chosen to post these things that you bring up on my blog it is because they are true and hurtful.
If you read my entire blog, you will see that my intent is not to smear or malign anyone's ministry. It is, however, to prove that these people who have the nerve to think they are above the Word and beyond the grasp of the church most certainly are not.
When I left my staff position I was maligned and threatened, called names and lied about, as have been countless others.
The actions of these people don't just effect their core group of friends but they spread through the church, causing many of the issues we see now.
To whom much is given, much shall be required.
I also have the freedom of speech to tell my story because that is what it is - MY story.
I have taken this "brother's" name out of my blog but the blog will remain and as I have done in the past I encourage everyone with stories - good, bad, ugly - to do the same.
I know also how this "brother" works and I want no part of his antics around my family or my home, period.
I had taken the race issue to the church on more than one occasion before leaving and each time it was squashed ... much like you are getting no response from the hierarchy now. It's also what ultimately led to my departure from the church.
Do not get me wrong, there are issues such as racism and adultery, etc, in churches everywhere - I am not trying to pick on BBC or dump on the church in it's dire time. But when these people come out with attacks against brothers who either disagree or have concerns, then the truth should come out as well.
I will say this again so everyone hears me - BBC is a GREAT PLACE and GOD WORKS THERE IN THOUSANDS OF HEARTS, in MYRIADS of ways! There are AMAZING MEN AND WOMEN OF GOD THERE whom are vessels of gold, useable and used.
We can and do respectfully agree many points, but squelching the freedom to speak is not one of them.
God bless you, sister Pam, for the reconcilitory spirit He has given you, and may He continue to use you mightily as well as this open forum of discussion for His glory and our good.
Thanks again NASS.
NPYFIM
And If he given back all the things he has taken away from members of the church as in:
Mark Sharpe`s deaconship
and makes sure that every deacon who resigned over the Loyalty Letter gets called back to their deaconship
And If he calls back every member he ran off and invited them back home
And if he sends a written letter of apology to Union City and asks them to forgive him for cutting down his own flock in their presence
There is so much he will need to do to reverse what he has done to so many people!
Never put your faith in men! said...
NASS, forgive me for jumping in off topic.
Sister Pam:
I am not going to reveal my name and I have my own security as well as that of my family to be concerned with. This is neither exaggeration or deceit. While I have chosen to post these things that you bring up on my blog it is because they are true and hurtful.
If you read my entire blog, you will see that my intent is not to smear or malign anyone's ministry. It is, however, to prove that these people who have the nerve to think they are above the Word and beyond the grasp of the church most certainly are not.
When I left my staff position I was maligned and threatened, called names and lied about, as have been countless others.
The actions of these people don't just effect their core group of friends but they spread through the church, causing many of the issues we see now.
To whom much is given, much shall be required.
I also have the freedom of speech to tell my story because that is what it is - MY story.
I have taken this "brother's" name out of my blog but the blog will remain and as I have done in the past I encourage everyone with stories - good, bad, ugly - to do the same.
never put your faith in men
It is all too sad that so many of us have had to keep our names secret because the of what those in power can and will do to us.
I just have to ask you why you are going to take the man`s name down if you know he did this. I don`t think you should. If your story is true than stick to it and if I were you I would find a way to help those who want to put an end to this.
Maybe there is some way you can help without revealing who you are????
Since it is your story and you have the details, you should jumo at the chance to help put an end to this.
I do know personally from my own eyes that these things occurred. However, I took his name off of my blog out of respect of the members of the church.
These things happened a few years back, so of course I don't expect anyone who was involved to "remember".
I tried the reconciliation thing and used every avenue possible, to no avail 3 years ago. That is why I simply told my story and left it at that.
I did receive an email from the Gremillions a few weeks back and I am now (right now) in the process of responding in hopes that things have changed and these people do not still hold these views.
I am hoping I can help out and remain anonymous, and I am praying (and I would covet prayers from you all as well) about the best way to handle the entire situation.
Thank you for your candor and response.
never put your faith in men
That`s great! I will be praying and I hope those who hurt you will also come into the light and admit what they have done and seek forgiveness!
If every issue gets settled except for yours, then our church is still not healed.
If someone is going around using racial slurs about people God has made and people he loves and people who are equal to every other human being,then we have to include this on our list of question to the CC and get to the bottom of it!
blessme,
Is this the way you have been loved, treated, and "forgiven" by others? Just curious.
Karen,
The original issues started with humility, humbleness and apoligies being necessary. Unfortuantely, the issue has evolved to a question of credibility and integrity. Do I believe that Dr. Gaines can be forgiven? Absolutely! Do I believe that it is possible to restore credibility and integrity with an apology? No. Unfortunately, when someone destroys their integrity the only thing that can restore it is time. Also, our church can not spend months upon months still questioning the credibility of the apology and the integrity of the man behind it.
By the way don't hold your breath waiting for that to happen either.
I think love confronts sin and holds the person`s hand while they do what the Bible tells them to do.
I would be happy to make phone calls to find a good counselor for our pastor.
I would support him as he gets help.
I would help him anyway I can
BUT
I will also be truthful to him or anyone else that asks.
He needs to reverse everything he has done if he can and get some well needed help.
The Lord requires me to do just what I believe it require our pastor to do.
blessmewiththetruth,
Regarding all your "ifs"... it would take a lot longer than an after-the-Sunday-night-service meeting.
As for the "brother" NPYFIM referred to...
1. There's a whole thread devoted to a letter he wrote to Josh Manning in the October archives of this blog.
2. Anybody remember Mark Fuhrman?
NASS
David, There was also a consequence for David`s sin and I as recall Moses was not allow to enter the promise land for his sin.
Hi Tim,
You might consider: How long did it take for God to restore Peter or David?
Our credibility as Believers comes from the forgiveness given to us by the Son. We rest Christ's credentials, not ours or we would all stink the place out.
Those two examples (David, Peter) are interesting because both men were leaders, and continued to lead after a rocky period. In fact, some of the best leaders come out of personal failure.
Sometimes God has to cause us leaders to "limp" before he can really use us. You may yet see S.G.'s greatest day.
Also, when a pastor asks for forgiveness the church becomes stronger as it helps him heal and sees him rise to his full potential.
david,
I understand what you're saying and agree with you about David and Peter becoming great leaders after some really dark times. Unfortunately, Steve Gaines treated Gardendale staff and members the same way he's treated BBC staff and members. I can forgive, but I know BBC will never forget this dark time. With my financial background, a popular phrase is "past performance does not indicate future results", but it seems that history is repeating itself in this case. I know God can perform miracles - I hope He will in this.
It's been said on this blog (I don't know if it was you or not) that BBC will never be satisfied with any pastor because that pastor won't be Dr. Rogers. I don't think that's true - I think Mike Spradlin or Ken Whitten or David Jeremiah (My personal wish as I attended his church when I lived in San Diego) would be wonderful fits in BBC. Again, I'm not saying I want Steve Gaines to step down; I'm just giving examples to reiterate my point.
Karen
I guess it just sounds like setting up an awful lot of hoops to me. And I don't personally think that's our job. What you're offering sounds like "conditional forgiveness," not "seventy times seven" or offering a cloak. Trust me, I believe you're entitled to your opinion, and if this is what God requires of you when you have wronged someone else, then that's between you and the Father. But respectfully, can we really bind this on someone else? Perhaps this reveals the greatest gulf of all -- and it exists not between pastor and people, but between fellow members and our many diverse interpretations, opinions, and belief systems.
Also, with all of these conditions you've outlined that he MUST meet in order to forgiveness to be given and restoration to be accomplished in your mind, is there any allowance made for the things that have been alleged that are NOT true, or may yet be proven to be not true?
Blessmewiththetruth:
"David, There was also a consequence for David`s sin and I as recall Moses was not allow to enter the promise land for his sin."
Yeah, that's very true. In all those cases (Peter, Moses, David) there were consequences. None of them were "finished" though. They continued to lead and probably out of deeper, better humility.
New BBC Open Forum said...
blessmewiththetruth,
Regarding all your "ifs"... it would take a lot longer than an after-the-Sunday-night-service meeting.
As for the "brother" NPYFIM referred to...
1. There's a whole thread devoted to a letter he wrote to Josh Manning in the October archives of this blog.
2. Anybody remember Mark Fuhrman?
NASS
NASS i think a thread should be started about the racial slur allegations. May if enough attention is given to it, they will really clean house!
You all should be smiling. I just thought before publishing and deleted a whole post.
Let's keep praying for each other, okay?
Hey I wanted to say one more thing... I know I am one person, with one story and that this all boils down to my word against the word of these tenured "men of God".
I do not expect an apology nor an admission or anything from these people; that would be career suicide for them.
And for me, it doesn't matter who thinks what or who says what because at least people are THINKING NOW. I am in no way, shape or form trying to change anyone's view of anyone else.
I am most blessed to see all these posts, from all different people in all walks of life - because we are THINKING! God gives each of us common sense and a brain for a REASON and God bless everyone who is using that gift in dealing with and praying through these tough days!!!!!
maybejustmaybe wrote:
"You all should be smiling. I just thought before publishing and deleted a whole post."
NASS certainly is!
"Let's keep praying for each other, okay?"
Amen.
At least praying for each other gives us something to do while we're sitting here "forsaking the assembly," huh?
(maybe sneaks a peek to see if NASS is blogging from a laptop in the sanctuary ...)
Does anyone have insight into Bellevue's policy on social drinking? Staff and deacons in particular.
theophilus wrote:
"Does anyone have insight into Bellevue's policy on social drinking? Staff and deacons in particular."
Goin' somewhere with this, are ya?
NASS
maybe bestows on NASS the Sherlock Holmes Award for Most Astute Grasping of the Obvious ...
maybejustmaybe wrote:
"At least praying for each other gives us something to do while we're sitting here "forsaking the assembly," huh?"
(maybe sneaks a peek to see if NASS is blogging from a laptop in the sanctuary ...)
Oops! NASS got caught bloggin' in the balcony.
(MJM looks up)
I wanted to know Bellevue's policy before saying anything definitive.
maybejustmaybe wrote:
"maybe bestows on NASS the Sherlock Holmes Award for Most Astute Grasping of the Obvious ..."
Why, thank you, maybe! But weren't you wondering the same thing?
Actually, yes. Stop that!
theophilus,
Just a guess really, but I'd say they're probably against it.
NASS
I get lost in this blog thing from time to time. Is there a meeting of some type this Sunday?
I've heard there's going to be "something" Sunday evening after the worship service. Don't know what.
moosergs said...
I get lost in this blog thing from time to time. Is there a meeting of some type this Sunday?
It's been said there is supposed to be a MAJOR CHANGE being announced in Sunday's night service. Don't shoot the messenger (me!) if it doesn't happen. But I think something will be said, but I have no idea what or from whom will be said.
Theophilus said...
Does anyone have insight into Bellevue's policy on social drinking? Staff and deacons in particular.
I would think social drinking is a sin. I would like to know what you're referring to, but please make sure you have undisputed proof of whatever you say. Thanks!
Karen
I do- very disturbing to me, but I want to check about a policy first. Under the "don't shoot the messenger" rule, and unrelated to the staff social drinking issue, I think MD is going to resign.
I am certain that if you dig deep enough you can find one recorded sermon where Dr. Gains specifically says "none, not one drop" for staff, deacons or members...
Not that that position is any more supported by scripture than the tithe.......
I feel sure it's a teetotaling policy..I'm curious too...what's up?
The major announcement Sun. is that the communication committee will be no more. This came from a deacon source. This should not come as a surprise. The growing concerned have outgrown the Sun. am meeting room. Hopefully, SG will address his congregation as many of the concerned have requested, asked and have been praying for.
theophilus,
Here's some scripture against drinking...
Leviticus 10:8-10
Instructions for Priestly Conduct
8 Then the Lord said to Aaron, 9 “You and your descendants must never drink wine or any other alcoholic drink before going into the Tabernacle. If you do, you will die. This is a permanent law for you, and it must be observed from generation to generation. 10 You must distinguish between what is sacred and what is common, between what is ceremonially unclean and what is clean.
Numbers 6:3
3 they must give up wine and other alcoholic drinks. They must not use vinegar made from wine or from other alcoholic drinks, they must not drink fresh grape juice, and they must not eat grapes or raisins.
Judges 13:4
4 So be careful; you must not drink wine or any other alcoholic drink nor eat any forbidden food.[a]
Ezekiel 44:21
21 "No priest is to drink on the job—no wine while in the inside courtyard.
I heard from a deacon's wife that the deacons are meeting on Sunday afternoon to elect new officers.
Karen
WTB,
Good and well informed points as always. Good to see you back.
That would be a big mistake. If the CC disbanded now it would be too obvious that they were nothing more than window dressing. Were they completely disingenuous when they told concerned members that "we don't know/don't have the answer to that but will get back to you" if they pack up and move on?
Theophilus,
They are definitely against drinking. The qualifications for Bellevue deacons plainly prohibit drinking of any kind.
Not only that, they prohibit smoking (it may actually prohibit all tobacco use).
I understand the traditional SB position on alcohol. However, many Southern Baptist leaders are now questioning the alcohol prohibition. It was the subject of some controversy at this years' Convention. It will be interesting to see what happens with it in the future.
While I am an ardent nonsmoker, I disagree with the tobacco ban. If we are prohibiting tobacco, the only reason is on health grounds. Why single out smoking? Why not add transfats? Perhaps sun bathing too? While we are at it, why don't we have a gluttony provision. After all the Bible names it as sin, whereas alcohol and tobacco use are not so labeled.
In times past, there were ashtrays in the deacon meetings. And many will remember that Dr. Pollard loved cigars.
I think this is an example of someone singling out sins they dislike while leaving sins they enjoy alone. I don't think it can be justified.
Karen,
Paul set us free from the LAW in Galations....
Tithe is part of the Jewish law as well.
Unless you want to go back and perform every letter of the law, failing in even one of them is = total failure
Theophilus said...
I do- very disturbing to me, but I want to check about a policy first. Under the "don't shoot the messenger" rule, and unrelated to the staff social drinking issue, I think MD is going to resign.
Theophilus
Do you have information that D.C. has been wineing and dining folks too?????
I do believe consuming or buying alcohol is not an accepted practice in our church and neither is gambling.
When the leaders of the church don`t mind buying a little booze, then we might as well put a liquor store next to the church.
Does anyone here mind if I sit down and buy my buddy a beer while I try to witness to him?
I`m sick of all the charades at Bellevue.
They preach one thing and do another all the time!
Where are our leaders leading us?
ezekiel,
I couldn't find a New Testament verse against drinking, but I'll look harder. :)
Karen
I guess it is no secret then.
Paul tells Timothy to take a little wine for his stomach problem........
2000 years before Mylanta...
Theophilus said...
I guess it is no secret then.
What's no secret?
Karen
Ask crunch
Theophilus said...
I guess it is no secret then.
Theophilus
How in the world is D.C. going to straighten our church out while he goes around using provisions from God to wine and dine folks.
He obvious doesn`t care who knows or he would not be doing it in public!
The dining is fine but the wineing is sinful and shameful and doubly so when it is a new minister at Bellevue or any minister at Bellevue.
Is Bellevue beyond being shamed by it`s ministers?
Crunch,
What are we talking about here? Please be specific - I had a root canal today and my pain killers have kicked in and I'm kind of dorky tonight. Thanks!
Karen
karen
we have a minister at Bellevue purchasing alcohol for his friends while our teens are being taught in sunday school to abstain from alcohol and other things and while our pastor preaches how terrible alocohol is.
What kind of leadership is this?
Yes, guys. Spill it if you have proof -- i.e. names, places, dates. Otherwise, don't spread rumors.
NBBCOF
crunch,
You really have to put some more details out there. That is a HUGE issue, if true, and you need to be able to back it up.
Thanks! Karen
theophilus wrote:
"Under the "don't shoot the messenger" rule, and unrelated to the staff social drinking issue, I think MD is going to resign."
Seems we've heard that one before -- the Sunday it was announced David Coombs was coming on board. It didn't happen then, and I'll have to see it to believe it's going to happen Sunday.
NASS
**The list is growing...
Some of the congregation has awakened to the reality that our church is elder ruled by a close knit group of men who manage to be appointed to key positions year after year. The congregation needs to be awakened to this. I agree with Bin Wonderin:
We need:
1. An apology to the congregation for mocking us at Union City. After all, some of us didn't fall off the cabbage truck yesterday!
2. An admission the cheerleader tickets are not a legit moving expense and reimbursement to BBC.
3. An admission Dr. Gaines should have never given $25k to FUMC and an explanation of policy changes to prevent a repeat.
4. A policy for open books on Holy land trips and no overcharging of members. Free tickets for the host and wife are fine but not for anybody else
5. A quarterly business meeting with open mike Q&A with each committee chairman. Transcripts on the web within a week
**The current bylaws mention "monthly" business meetings! When were they changed??
6. A transparent committee selection process.
7. A good updated set of bylaws similar to GBC.
8. The signing of a public conflict of interest form for any member that has any business contract to provide services to the church. These people should be recused from committees that review bids for their services.
9. No church credit cards. Pay your own way and then turn in an expense report like I do at my job.
AND I would like to add...
10. A business meeting in accord with Matthew 18 to deal with the issues that remain related to Mark Sharpe and "the Dream"... AND any other loose ends that should have been dealt with months ago!!
11. The END of heavy handed dealing with ministers, staff, and members.
12. A whistle blower policy for ministers, staff, and members. Also:
13. Full disclosure of ministerial compensation: salary + benefit breakdown, etc.
14. Much greater congregational oversight of the current budget with a transparent policy for consideration of non-budgeted expenditures exceeding a reasonable amount.
15. Forgiveness for those in leadership who have allowed this to deteriorate to this point--AND consequences for their actions.
16. Building prayer buildings or any other type of building should be brought through proper channels to the congregation for prayerful consideration--not coerced "rubber stamping."
By the way, Dr. Rogers taught us quite a bit about prayer. As a matter of fact, I believe all of the current buildings ARE prayer buildings already. He and Dr. Whitmire also taught us quite a bit about worship also... but that's another topic.
17. Bellevue needs to reject Warrenism fully and finally.
18. Congregational nomination of and election of all of the Board of Directors as called for in the 1929 bylaws.
19. Public apologies to and restitution (compensation, office, freedom to speak freely) if necessary made to former staff and deacons who have been treated roughly, unfairly, been intimidated, or who have resigned due to concerns of conscience.
All in my opinion as usual.
Revival, reform, congregational oversight... for there is level ground at Calvary and "he who would be great among you shall be the servant of all."
Folks,
What we have here are a couple of new bloggers (Theophilus & Crunch). It seems that they are intent on starting a little rumor and trying to get us to bite on it. The intent is to convince everyone of how easily rumors get spread. Well, fellas or ladies as the case may be. So far the folks on the blog here have spoke of things that they have personally, seen or heard or acquired from first hand sources.
Nice try, but we do our homework here and verification has been a must. So far, there have been many, many verified and precious little refuted.
Mat 11:18 For John came neither eating nor drinking, and they say, He hath a devil.
11:19 The Son of man came eating and drinking, and they say, Behold a man gluttonous, and a winebibber, a friend of publicans and sinners. But wisdom is justified of her children.
Romans 14 talks about it as well.
Kinda comes down to "if you think it is sin, don't do it. If I know you think it is sin, I should not drink in front of you to cause you to stumble"
Psalms has a statement where God created wine for man....
At the bottom of the pile, not sure we can ever get to a definative point of agreement, much like "once saved always saved" Try Ez 18:24, John 15:2, Romans 11:20-21 or Ex 32:33
32:33 And the LORD said unto Moses, Whosoever hath sinned against me, him will I blot out of my book.
theophilus
You may have the floor and give the details since you already said you had them.
I don`t have time right now.
Yes, theophilus. By all means do. The floor's all yours. Spill it or drop it.
NBBCOF
I have them, but I will check on the policy first. If you are the one who saw him in the restaurant and talked with the waitress, speak out. If not, let's end this part of the thread.
We need to be cautious in all things for we are commanded so. Interesting that our old friends HisServant and ACE are not here and some new fellow Theopolus and Crunch have shown up.
If this is a plan to decieve, then
#1) It is pathetic
#2) Some have sank to new lows.
If it is not, then you better be sure that your info is verifiable because it will be checked out.
I recognize the alcohol question is a sticky wicket for Southern Baptists, but I am unsure a biblical case for total abstinence can be made. I suspect the SBC position on alcohol has more to do with tradition arising out of the American temperance movement of the late 1800's and early 1900's than the Bible.
If we examine John 2:1-11 and Luke 7:33-34, Jesus clearly used alcohol. Certainly He was not ungodly so how can we be ungodly for doing something Christ did? The Bible clearly says drunkenness is sinful, but where does it say drinking is sinful?
I'm not an advocate for alcohol. Rather, I am advocate for the sufficiency of Scriptures. Is our doctrine based solely on Scripture, or do we also incorporate tradition and history?
This question will continue to come up among Southern Baptists. It is a natural outgrowth of the Battle for the Bible.
trolls
or worse, deacon plants
The policy lately is like the writing on the barn wall in the book animal house... It tends to change with no notice to the rest of the barnyard animals...
So far as past policy was concerned, it was absolutely, positively, totally BBC dry county.
Who remembers "the finished product of the brewers art"(drunkard pictured in gutter passed out) billboard story??
is there a difference?
But if they're fishing for takers to jump on a rumor... let's not be biting.
I have got to post a few things...
1. Tithing records are reviewed- Who cares??? I won't boast about my giving to others, but if anyone wants to look it up, why would it bother me? No one knows my finances, so how could they determine if I give 10%? Maybe they want to ensure people who serve the church actually give...without tax records no one knows where its 10% or not. I don't see a problem with it. Considering how the majority of folks on here demanded to see every financial detail of the church, why would they then be bothered if the church reviewed there giving? It's a double standard any way you play it, but I know I am not convincing anyone anyhow, because everyone here "loves BBC" and "feels hurt". Good to know everyone is so consumed with the damage to themselves and not the thousands of people being hurt by this side show.
(Please don't respond by telling me since you give(tithe) you have a right to know everything. How about putting trust in those who serve and handle the BBC business. Better yet, walk into your CEO's office tommorrow and demand to see his financial records because after all you do contribute to company stock right??? Better check his credit card purchases, benefits package, and moving expenses to ensure the money you are contributing to stock or 401k.)
2. Has even one person noticed the snowball effect going on here...Mark Sharpe (whom I have the pleasure of not knowing) is offended..demands everything from an apology to an all out resignation. He has a few issues. As those are addressed, the "truth seekers" pick apart the answers in order to construct new issues. With each answer, at least one additional (If not about 20) is brought up. You wonder why people shy away from the people here who only ask questions to seek out further issues??? Gee I wonder. I would love to answer a question honestly only to get thrown under a bus...a carivan of buses.
3. The Communication Committee is formed to give everyone a voice, a platform for their concerns. Do people remember complaining how they had no voice? Now they have a voice, but huge surprise here, its not good enough. Its never enough. The truth is, nothing will ever be enough. No you shouldn't leave. You should stay and continue to divide and try to destroy. Why let people worship the Lord in peace and love? Nah...hang around and make trouble. Oh its trouble your seeking right, its the truth? Does it actually feel good to sit around here and complain and feel so mistreated? I have read some incredible posts...including a bunch from a woman who needs more than an apology, she needs some serious counceling. Don't help her out though...pour some gas on the fire.
Oh I know you are doing it for the greater good right...well after reading these posts I hope the Lord I serve does not judge me like others have chosen to judge leaders of the church. How does it feel to demand apologies and even set out conditions of those in order to "forgive them". Whatever...this is going to be deleted, but at least I can stand behind my words with my real name.
Ricky Dyer
PS I really enjoyed the posts concerning how low the love offering was. Way to celebrate.
One of the things that long time members of Bellevue might remember that we were taught concerning wine.
The passover supper consisted of unleavened bread and wine.
Would it not be inconsistent to have unleavend bread with leavened wine. Leaven was always spoken of to represent sin and leaven is a key ingredient in the fermenting process of alcholic wine.
WTB....
And I would add, a direct result of a bunch of folks depending on the message from a Pastor than digging it out of the Word.
Do a word study on "oinos", the word used for wine in the NT and you'll change your opinion.
It looks like rickey gave up his attempt to start a rumor as "crunch" and reveal himself.
Of course it could be that a lot of us just aren't used to a pastor that lies to us.
Tim...
bravo (sound of clapping).
Also, who would want to place temptation at the Lord's Supper before a recovering alcoholic.
It is not for kings (Prov. 31), It is not for the wise (Prov. 20:1), It is not for priests (Lev. 10)...
By the way, what the Jews did then and what they do now are two different stories also. As Tim's post points out.
theophilus wrote:
"I have them, but I will check on the policy first. If you are the one who saw him in the restaurant and talked with the waitress, speak out. If not, let's end this part of the thread."
Well, you're the one who brought it up! As I said before, spill it or drop it.
ricky dyer wrote:
"Whatever...this is going to be deleted, but at least I can stand behind my words with my real name."
Wouldn't dream of it, Ricky. That was classic!
NBBCOF
If we examine John 2:1-11 and Luke 7:33-34, Jesus clearly used alcohol. Certainly He was not ungodly so how can we be ungodly for doing something Christ did? The Bible clearly says drunkenness is sinful, but where does it say drinking is sinful?
I don't think it does, so I agree with your position that drunkeness is a sin but a drink is not. Still I think it is a wise polciy to forbid drink for staff, deacons and teachers so they do not cause others to stumble.
I personally do not drink because of alcoholism in my immediate and extended family. I want to teach my children total abstinance is the only choice for our family given our history. There is very little good that comes from booze, but loads of heartache does.
Tim,
We need to be cautious in all things for we are commanded so. Interesting that our old friends HisServant and ACE are not here and some new fellow Theopolus and Crunch have shown up.
I was not here because I was at the GREAT BBC for church tonight. And you're implying that we're one of those people? You're wrong, Tim. Why would we post lies concerning our leadership? That wouldn't make any sense at all.
If this is a plan to decieve, then
#1) It is pathetic
#2) Some have sank to new lows.
I don't know what their intentions are, were they got their info, etc. But how do we know that you didn't post that to try to make myself look bad by blaming me? We don't.... You see, this could go both ways.
If it is not, then you better be sure that your info is verifiable because it will be checked out.
Good advice.
I'm actually from Seattle but stumbled upon these blog threads and as a brother in Christ felt I needed to give you an unbiased perspective on what you look like to the outside world. You look like a bunch of grumbling Isrealites who are unhappy with your leadership and trying to find fault with anything and everything. I've never been to Memphis but made a mental note to stay as clear from this church as is physically possible if business brings me that way. I suspect the Isrealites would have had overactive blogs if the technology was available. Unfortunately the whole world has to see this ungodly murmuring. For Christ's sake, please stop it.
NASS,
And I thought that I had posted some stuff to be ashamed of. Ricky (Crunch) just wrote a book of them.
Seattlebrother...excellent post and you are so true....
Bin Wonderin,
I agree there is much wisdom in abstaining from alcohol, I just don't believe the Bible mandates it.
I also think it is perfectly fine to hold staff and deacons to a higher standard.
bin wonderin, wtb, tim, et al.,
It's a diversion tactic. Interesting discussion but not going anywhere.
(I don't think ace was involved.)
So... think if they're disbanding the CC they'll still meet this Sunday morning?
Ace,
I just came from church myself. You must have a longer drive home than I do.
And no I am not saying you and they are the same. But I do believe that there is a group of "itty-bitty" deacons that would love to come here start some wild-eyed rumor and then glory in the fact that it was so readily received.
It is a church Ricky....A church.
Supposed to be all about humble service and the body of Christ with One head, JESUS and worshipping HIM.
Not racking up salvations (counting warriors was dangerous in David's day) and tithes to build a monument to a man's ego. Not a corporation.
If answering questions makes leadership queasy.........
Ricky wrote...
I have got to post a few things...
1. Tithing records are reviewed- Who cares??? I won't boast about my giving to others, but if anyone wants to look it up, why would it bother me? No one knows my finances, so how could they determine if I give 10%? Maybe they want to ensure people who serve the church actually give...without tax records no one knows where its 10% or not. I don't see a problem with it. Considering how the majority of folks on here demanded to see every financial detail of the church, why would they then be bothered if the church reviewed there giving? It's a double standard any way you play it, but I know I am not convincing anyone anyhow, because everyone here "loves BBC" and "feels hurt". Good to know everyone is so consumed with the damage to themselves and not the thousands of people being hurt by this side show.
(Please don't respond by telling me since you give(tithe) you have a right to know everything. How about putting trust in those who serve and handle the BBC business. Better yet, walk into your CEO's office tommorrow and demand to see his financial records because after all you do contribute to company stock right??? Better check his credit card purchases, benefits package, and moving expenses to ensure the money you are contributing to stock or 401k.)
2. Has even one person noticed the snowball effect going on here...Mark Sharpe (whom I have the pleasure of not knowing) is offended..demands everything from an apology to an all out resignation. He has a few issues. As those are addressed, the "truth seekers" pick apart the answers in order to construct new issues. With each answer, at least one additional (If not about 20) is brought up. You wonder why people shy away from the people here who only ask questions to seek out further issues??? Gee I wonder. I would love to answer a question honestly only to get thrown under a bus...a carivan of buses.
3. The Communication Committee is formed to give everyone a voice, a platform for their concerns. Do people remember complaining how they had no voice? Now they have a voice, but huge surprise here, its not good enough. Its never enough. The truth is, nothing will ever be enough. No you shouldn't leave. You should stay and continue to divide and try to destroy. Why let people worship the Lord in peace and love? Nah...hang around and make trouble. Oh its trouble your seeking right, its the truth? Does it actually feel good to sit around here and complain and feel so mistreated? I have read some incredible posts...including a bunch from a woman who needs more than an apology, she needs some serious counceling. Don't help her out though...pour some gas on the fire.
Oh I know you are doing it for the greater good right...well after reading these posts I hope the Lord I serve does not judge me like others have chosen to judge leaders of the church. How does it feel to demand apologies and even set out conditions of those in order to "forgive them". Whatever...this is going to be deleted, but at least I can stand behind my words with my real name.
Ricky Dyer
PS I really enjoyed the posts concerning how low the love offering was. Way to celebrate.
9:17 PM, November 29, 2006
bin wonderin
John 2 and the other passage... most translations read "wine" but the word can indicate unfermented grape juice as well. Since at the wedding he made about 150+ gallons of the stuff... You have a theological problem if you say that it was alcoholic... drunkards will not be in heaven!!
NBBCOF,
(I don't think ace was involved.)
Thank you. You are correct in that statement.
Tim,
I just came from church myself. You must have a longer drive home than I do.
Nope, only 10-15 minutes...I have other stuff to take care of than just the service...I just don't go for that. Glad to hear you attended tonight, though!
Be ashamed of giving an honest assessment of the truth??? hardly... and who is crunch? Sorry I don't get the whole "blog" nickname thing. Notice I didn't have to judge your actions with my personal opinion? Notice I didn't even ask you to stop or demand an apology? Whether or not I am offended isn't the point when it comes to serving the Lord or an excuse not to. If me simply highlighting the movements and words of this forum that I find interesting is something to be ashamed of...wow you got me...will there be a thread of posts outlining how i need to apologize now? maybe even with the conditions? By the way, if Pastor Steve wants to come to my house, I will welcome his fellowship annouced or unannounced. It would not be trespassing at my house. Speaking of...how could Pastor Steve intimidate another grown man??? Are we 5 and he threatened to take his lunch money or something??? (The last part is a light hearted joke- don't throw me under the bus..
Ricky Dyer,
Who cares about someone checking on tithing?? I'd say staff at Bellevue have a little different problem than you do. Perhaps the administration of Bellevue doesn't know what your 100% is... But they know what their employees make... Hmmmmmmm.... How would you feel about your giving?? compulsion? intimidated?? It would really free you up to feel like you were giving from the heart wouldn't it?
NASS,
Just a thought on what could be coming about on Sunday, pure speculation, but something that I believe we need to consider.
I have a suspicion that there might be a vote to confirm Dr. Gaines as our pastor in an attempt to silence those that oppose him by presenting an overall majority of the church supporting him and attempting to shame those that do not.
If we are told Sunday morning that a business meeting is being held that night, then you better hold on to your seat.
Purely an opinion, but it I believe that it is worthy of thought. I also, do not believe that anyone within the leadership or upper crust deacon set are ready to cave in and admit anything at this point.
I find it interesting that Pastor Tom Ascol’s resolution on church discipline was not voted on at this years Southern Baptist Convention, yet Resolution 5 (the alcohol resolution) was voted on and passed. Church discipline has explicit biblical support while banning of moderate drinking of alcohol does not (it is at least debateable). Even Al Mohler agrees there is no biblical support for a complete alcohol ban.
To Ricky Dyer
You seem to be upset. Take some mood adjusters and setdown. We are not blaming Steve Gaines for everything but he is our leader and he should be the one taking the lead on resolving the problems. This still could be settled quickly if he would have all parties meet and clear the air. We would accept the Truth if really given. The answers we have been receiving have been half truths or just out right lies. The Truth will find you out.
WTB,
I think Dr. Ascol's proposed resolution also called for integrity in reporting membership numbers as well...discounting those that are "inactive" or can't be found.
Allofgrace,
It did indeed. Ascol is concerned we have an unregenerate denomination, which is a sobering thought.
Doesn't the discipline thing deminish Pastoral control/domination while the alcohol thing strengthens it?
Ezekiel,
On the surface, enforcement of church discipline and a seeker-sensitive strategy do not seem complimentary.
Back to RW huh...
Back to RW, Bill Hybels and their church-growth ilk.
Did you know the founder of Southern Baptist Theological Seminary, Dr. James Boyce, actually decried the initial SBC alcohol resolutions as being "not germane to the business of the Convention?"
WTB,
Paige Patterson has expressed concerns over unregenerate church members as well...I think his estimates are somewhere around 33% of the average SB church being born again believers.
Can I have your attention, please? Tim was right about crunch and theopolus (or whatever his name is)...They've got us discussing the alcohol policy of the SBC instead of issues specific to BBC. Nice try, you two!
Karen
karen & nass,
I suppose my speculation on Sunday is lost in the discussion. Look at this from a political stand point and you might be able to see why it is that I have come to be suspicious.
Well I just posted my final thoughts on the PD issue at Bellevue on that thread..if you want to occupy a few minutes.
Also, think of the other political posturing and postioning that has already taken place...if form holds true...
Wow, sudden cold still silence.
tap..tap..tap...anyone home
Tim
I caught it and think you could be on to something. We need to be prepared for anything.
Most of all we need to find out about a new set of bylaws.
Did anyone catch the post earlier today about a Tennessee nonprofit tax act of 1998? Someone posted that a law was passed that if the bylaws had not been updated in 50 years that the new law would replace the old bylaws.
I guess that even that could be a diversion but it would no thurt to see in anyone heard the same thing.
nhisname,
I did see that earlier on the non profit act of 1998. I had forgot about it. Give me a moment and I can do some quick research. I have stored Tenn tax info on my laptop here. Be right back.
In the meantime, suppose that this does come out as a shrewd political move. We need to be prepared as to how we intend on responding. I realize that it is not a pleasant thought, however, none of this has been pleasant so far and I don't expect the road to become any less bumpy.
Did the Rapture happen???
I'm all alone!!!!!
:)
WHEW!!!!
I thought I was the only one left.
I am so happy. :)
nhisname,
Sorry, I had to scan thru 64 pages of an adobe document.
tim wrote:
"In the meantime, suppose that this does come out as a shrewd political move. We need to be prepared as to how we intend on responding."
How do you "prepare" to keep your seat?
I guess we just need to have as many of us there as we can so that we will be able to show that everyone is not ready, willing and able to jusp on the first crumb that is thrown to us.
The charter act of was effective Jan 1, 1988. It required that certain documents be filed to qualify as a non-profit organization. Non-profit organizations that existed prior to Jan 1, 1988 did not have to update their record to include a charter.
jump
I believe that this is probably what someone was referring to concerning TN tax law act of 1988 for non-profits.
Well, I guess we are back to square one.
Personally I have no issue with a glass of wine at dinner; however I would be shocked to see my pastor drinking a glass of wine. Now that may be a double standard, but that's how life is sometimes.
Also I heard that same rumor that mD would be stepping down (and no I have no proof)
And I also thought the service was great tonight!
GNite All!!!
See you in the funny papers or back here tomorrow.
Well, I don't necassarily believe that we need to keep our seat, but I do believe that we need to be prepared to stand even if it is against the crowd.
I also, believe that what is being seen as politically shrewd will wind up being political sucide, especially for those that may just be going along because they believe that no one would stand in oppostion.
Tim, no offense, but I really do not think anyone will stand in opposition if given a chance.
OK, so I have either completely depressed an entire group or all have gone to bed. I think that I will head to bed myself.
Goodnight, Ya'll. We'll talk more tomorrow.
flatfoot,
I Will, even if I stand alone.
and Tim, I will not try to convince you otherwise. I respect that you have strong feelings and will represent yourself.
I appreciate that. I am headed to bed. Everyone try to sleep well.
G'night, Tim!
To whomever it may apply:
You'll pay. The knowledge of your acts will weigh
Heavier on your mind each day.
The more you climb, the more you gain,
The more you'll feel the nagging strain.
Success will cower at the threat
Of retribution. Fear will fret
Your peace and bleed you for the debt;
Conscience collects from every crook
More than the worth of what he took,
You only thought you got away
But in the night you'll pay and pay.
R. G. Lee "Payday Someday"
Karen,
Oink! You have mail!
Tim,
In regards to your suggestion about standing in opposition- I will have to stand behind someone. I'm not sure if I'm scared of Steve Gaines but I have always been afraid of Phil Weatherwax.
Just a few thoughts and question that need to be answered whenever our next business meeting may occur. I believe that we should be prepared to ask these questions concerning any motions that may or may not be presented if a business meeting does occur.
What constitutes a quorum of membership that must be present to validate a vote?
Is this stated in our by-laws?
What constitutes the margin by which a motion must be approved in order to be adopted by our church?
Is this stated in our by-laws?
What authority is given to bring a vote before the church?
Is this stated in our by-laws?
The list could be endless and these questions need to be answered before a congregational vote is made on any issue. The intent being to insure that there is any validity to a vote that is not defined in our by-laws.
Again, I would like to reiterate that the timing or occurance of a business meeting is purely speculative.
I do believe that we need to be prepared to have questions answered concerning the validity of a vote, according to our current by-laws, even if it takes until 3:00am to answer them all and finally reach the point of calling for a vote.
piglet,
are you sure you emailed me? I don't have any new email.
Thanks! Karen
I am not a member of Bellevue, but I just want to suggest to you all please call "Peacemaker Ministries". The website is www.hispeace.org
You can go to the link get help with conflict at the top of the web page. I am praying. For this trouble to end for you. I am praying you all grow in forgiveness to one another, and love with all sincerity and I pray you will show each other mercy. Don't talk bad to the authority at Bellevue even if they are doing wrong, speak to them gently as one should speak kindly is explaining something to a parent. And don’t forget to cry to the L-RD, they hurt me; they are hurting all of Bellevue. Maybe the authority and all of Bellevue might want to think why this is happening, let everyone examine themselves; did they do something that should be repented of?
Communications Committee Membership.
Brothers and Sisters in Christ
I attend a sister church in Alabama that is having identical issues as those of Bellevue. If one took Carol Pemberton's letter #2 and changed the name to my church it would apply 100%. Satan has chosen to attack our churches in this manner. In looking at those in leadership throughout this attack there is a common name, HARRY SMITH. I know nothing personnally about Mr. Smith. But noticed that he was on Pastor Search Committee, Communications Team, Finance Committee, Deacon and reviewed the credit card. With 30000 members I think one should diversify and not allow one individual to be part of so many important organizations. It would protect him and the body...It raised too many eyebrows....
cd ward wrote:
"I attend a sister church in Alabama that is having identical issues as those of Bellevue. If one took Carol Pemberton's letter #2 and changed the name to my church it would apply 100%. Satan has chosen to attack our churches in this manner. In looking at those in leadership throughout this attack there is a common name, HARRY SMITH. I know nothing personnally about Mr. Smith. But noticed that he was on Pastor Search Committee, Communications Team, Finance Committee, Deacon and reviewed the credit card. With 30000 members I think one should diversify and not allow one individual to be part of so many important organizations. It would protect him and the body...It raised too many eyebrows...."
Thank you for stating what several thousand BBC members seem to be missing! NASS passes the coveted "Sherlock Holmes Award for Most Astute Grasping of the Obvious" to our Alabama brother/sister. May God bless you in waging this battle we're both facing. And please keep us up to date on how it's going.
NASS
It is also worthy of mentioning that this same fellow answers all of the questions posed to the communication committee. And most of the time the answer is "I don't know". It looks like if any one would know that this would certainly be the man.
Father in Heaven,
Thank you for today. Thank you for the food you give us in holy scripture. Help us to be more like Jesus.
In His name,
AMEN.
Today's Good News from Luke.
Click on my profile to see the archive of previous studies as well as how to go to Heaven and what BBC stands for.
Luke 5:27-39 (King James Version)
27And after these things he went forth, and saw a publican, named Levi, sitting at the receipt of custom: and he said unto him, Follow me.
28And he left all, rose up, and followed him.
29And Levi made him a great feast in his own house: and there was a great company of publicans and of others that sat down with them.
30But their scribes and Pharisees murmured against his disciples, saying, Why do ye eat and drink with publicans and sinners?
31And Jesus answering said unto them, They that are whole need not a physician; but they that are sick.
32I came not to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance.
33And they said unto him, Why do the disciples of John fast often, and make prayers, and likewise the disciples of the Pharisees; but thine eat and drink?
34And he said unto them, Can ye make the children of the bridechamber fast, while the bridegroom is with them?
35But the days will come, when the bridegroom shall be taken away from them, and then shall they fast in those days.
36And he spake also a parable unto them; No man putteth a piece of a new garment upon an old; if otherwise, then both the new maketh a rent, and the piece that was taken out of the new agreeth not with the old.
37And no man putteth new wine into old bottles; else the new wine will burst the bottles, and be spilled, and the bottles shall perish.
38But new wine must be put into new bottles; and both are preserved.
39No man also having drunk old wine straightway desireth new: for he saith, The old is better.
allofgrace said...
WTB,
Paige Patterson has expressed concerns over unregenerate church members as well...I think his estimates are somewhere around 33% of the average SB church being born again believers.
10:17 PM, November 29, 2006
Was he saying only 33% of church staff are regenerate?
Was he saying only 33% of deacons are regenerate?
Is it possible that pessimistic because he has come to this blog and seen the apparent unregenerate behavior of some of the trolls and bears? Perhaps he is truly giving a prophet's warning to us?
These kinds of statistics were referenced in a previous Luke's Good News text.
Choice,
From the Alvin Ellis/Rob Teutsch email exchange:
"Remember Dr. Rogers preached on 2 separate occasions that he feared as much as 80% of BBC is NOT saved; Dr. Gray Allison preached 75% and Billy Graham has said he fears that as little as 15% of the Church is saved."
If those men were correct, we have our explanation for the colossal apathy and lack of discernment of so many Bellevue members.
Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.
Matthew 7:21-23
Tim posted: Again, I would like to reiterate that the timing or occurance of a business meeting is purely speculative.
REPLY: purely speculative?? you paint a false picture and a POSSIBLE false motive by Brother Steve and others with nothing to back it up?
purely speculative? it seems that most of this blog and info on it falls under that same catagory
NASS, this is under the "Whatever" thread:
Unless I missed something, I did not hear how this year's love offering compared to years past. Does someone know?
A warning for all of those so opposed to Pastor Gaines. Remember he is the Lord's anointed servant. Something not taken lightly in the eyes of God.
Psalm 89:19-24
19 Once You spoke in vision to Your godly ones, And said, “I have given help to one who is mighty;
I have exalted one chosen from the people.
20 “I have found David My servant; With My holy oil I have anointed him,
21 With whom My hand will be established; My arm also will strengthen him.
22 “The enemy will not deceive him, Nor the son of wickedness afflict him.
23 “But I shall crush his adversaries before him, And strike those who hate him.
24 “My faithfulness and My lovingkindness will be with him,
And in My name his horn will be exalted.
I thought the Love Offering was a great blessing. It seems many on here are hoping that giving was way down. Pretty sad. anything to further your agenda. Mom4, I am not directing this at you, just at those on the blog in general.
Nehemiah: I agree and have posted this several times. Brother Steve is God's anointed and it is VERY SCARY to see amd hear how some talk about him and even to him. It is not just their "concerns", but the horrible, dispectful manor in which it is done.
Karen,
Sorry. Check your mail again...
Nehemiah .. HisServant-1,
We are each anointed in the New Testament.
Also, I am so glad that you came to teach us how to be disrespectful.
piglet,
got it! :)
I posted this a few days ago, but I think Nehemiah and hisservant-1 should read it. At one time Saul was God's annointed and then God was sorry he made Saul king.
Karen said...
I don't know if this passage with speak to anyone, but it speaks to me. My favorite verse has been verse 14 - don't you hate it when you hide things from God and then somebody finds out and calls your bluff??? If God can be sorry that He made someone a king, can't I be sorry that He appointed the leadership at Bellevue? Just wondering....Karen
1 Samuel 15:10-40 (The Message)
10-11 Then God spoke to Samuel: "I'm sorry I ever made Saul king. He's turned his back on me. He refuses to do what I tell him."
11-12 Samuel was angry when he heard this. He prayed his anger and disappointment all through the night. He got up early in the morning to confront Saul but was told, "Saul's gone. He went to Carmel to set up a victory monument in his own honor, and then was headed for Gilgal."
By the time Samuel caught up with him, Saul had just finished an act of worship, having used Amalekite plunder for the burnt offerings sacrificed to God.
13 As Samuel came close, Saul called out, "God's blessings on you! I accomplished God's plan to the letter!"
14 Samuel said, "So what's this I'm hearing—this bleating of sheep, this mooing of cattle?"
15 "Only some Amalekite loot," said Saul. "The soldiers saved back a few of the choice cattle and sheep to offer up in sacrifice to God. But everything else we destroyed under the holy ban."
16 "Enough!" interrupted Samuel. "Let me tell you what God told me last night."
Saul said, "Go ahead. Tell me."
17-19 And Samuel told him. "When you started out in this, you were nothing—and you knew it. Then God put you at the head of Israel—made you king over Israel. Then God sent you off to do a job for him, ordering you, 'Go and put those sinners, the Amalekites, under a holy ban. Go to war against them until you have totally wiped them out.' So why did you not obey God? Why did you grab all this loot? Why, with God's eyes on you all the time, did you brazenly carry out this evil?"
20-21 Saul defended himself. "What are you talking about? I did obey God. I did the job God set for me. I brought in King Agag and destroyed the Amalekites under the terms of the holy ban. So the soldiers saved back a few choice sheep and cattle from the holy ban for sacrifice to God at Gilgal—what's wrong with that?"
22-23 Then Samuel said, Do you think all God wants are sacrifices—empty rituals just for show? He wants you to listen to him! Plain listening is the thing, not staging a lavish religious production. Not doing what God tells you is far worse than fooling around in the occult. Getting self-important around God
is far worse than making deals with your dead ancestors.
Because you said No to God's command, he says No to your kingship.
24-25 Saul gave in and confessed, "I've sinned. I've trampled roughshod over God's Word and your instructions. I cared more about pleasing the people. I let them tell me what to do. Oh, absolve me of my sin! Take my hand and lead me to the altar so I can worship God!"
26 But Samuel refused: "No, I can't come alongside you in this. You rejected God's command. Now God has rejected you as king over Israel."
27-29 As Samuel turned to leave, Saul grabbed at his priestly robe and a piece tore off. Samuel said, "God has just now torn the kingdom from you, and handed it over to your neighbor, a better man than you are. Israel's God-of-Glory doesn't deceive and he doesn't dither. He says what he means and means what he says."
30 Saul tried again, "I have sinned. But don't abandon me! Support me with your presence before the leaders and the people. Come alongside me as I go back to worship God."
31 Samuel did. He went back with him. And Saul went to his knees before God and worshiped.
32 Then Samuel said, "Present King Agag of Amalek to me." Agag came, dragging his feet, muttering that he'd be better off dead.
33 Samuel said, "Just as your sword made many a woman childless, so your mother will be childless among those women!" And Samuel cut Agag down in the presence of God right there in Gilgal.
34-35 Samuel left immediately for Ramah and Saul went home to Gibeah. Samuel had nothing to do with Saul from then on, though he grieved long and deeply over him. But God was sorry he had ever made Saul king in the first place.
8:37 PM, November 27, 2006
Can't you just see Saul trying to back peddle when Samuel asks about the bleating of sheep and lowing of cattle (the stuff that was left over when Saul was supposed to have slain EVERYTHING)
Karen's own interpretation follows:
"But Samuel, it was just a little bitty sheep!"
Just a suggestion for Bellevue's new animated logo.
NASS (with tongue in cheek)
headoutofthesand,
Please e-mail me.
NBBCOF
Tim,
I sent you mail....
NASS,
I'm cold - give me back my wool! :) BRRRR, BAAAA, BRRRRR!
Hey, that "itty bitty sheep" thing was funny! How come nobody spits coffee when I make a funny! :(
Karen (feeling needy and unvalidated!)
Karen,
I laughed...
How do you delete a post? I only laughed once.
Tim,
“Nehemiah .. HisServant-1, We are each anointed in the New Testament. Also, I am so glad that you came to teach us how to be disrespectful.”
Read this with a smile because I think you usually think I’m screaming at you. This is a gentle Mr. Rogers voice.
You seem confused about “anointed” leaders. Anointing in Scripture usually refers to the giving of the Holy Spirit. Thus when a leader was “anointed” in the Old Testament it was a promise of God’s presence on their life. In the New Testament we are promised (especially in 1st John) that all Believers have an “anointing.” That is, all who believe possess the Holy Spirit.
Because all believers have the Holy Spirit does not mean that God has not chosen leaders from among His anointed. God continues to use human leaders that we are commanded to “obey.”
“Obey your leaders and submit to their authority. They keep watch over you as men who must give an account. Obey them so that their work will be a joy, not a burden, for that would be of no advantage to you.” Heb. 13:17
In Church there are a plurality of leaders. In the N.T. there are two given offices: Pastors and Deacons. It seems that most on this site have a problem with those serving in both those offices. You are afraid of deacon spies and have a list of complaints against pastor. Could an entire church’s leadership really be so corrupt? How did Dr. Rogers survive?
At least give thought to what I’m suggesting.
You have my sincere love in Christ.
nehemiah....
David had Nathan...... Praise God!
2SAM 12:1 And the LORD sent Nathan unto David. And he came unto him, and said unto him, There were two men in one city; the one rich, and the other poor.
12:2 The rich [man] had exceeding many flocks and herds:
12:3 But the poor [man] had nothing, save one little ewe lamb, which he had bought and nourished up: and it grew up together with him, and with his children; it did eat of his own meat, and drank of his own cup, and lay in his bosom, and was unto him as a daughter.
12:4 And there came a traveller unto the rich man, and he spared to take of his own flock and of his own herd, to dress for the wayfaring man that was come unto him; but took the poor man's lamb, and dressed it for the man that was come to him.
12:5 And David's anger was greatly kindled against the man; and he said to Nathan, [As] the LORD liveth, the man that hath done this [thing] shall surely die:
12:6 And he shall restore the lamb fourfold, because he did this thing, and because he had no pity.
12:7 And Nathan said to David, Thou [art] the man. Thus saith the LORD God of Israel, I anointed thee king over Israel, and I delivered thee out of the hand of Saul;
12:8 And I gave thee thy master's house, and thy master's wives into thy bosom, and gave thee the house of Israel and of Judah; and if [that had been] too little, I would moreover have given unto thee such and such things.
12:9 Wherefore hast thou despised the commandment of the LORD, to do evil in his sight? thou hast killed Uriah the Hittite with the sword, and hast taken his wife [to be] thy wife, and hast slain him with the sword of the children of Ammon.
12:10 Now therefore the sword shall never depart from thine house; because thou hast despised me, and hast taken the wife of Uriah the Hittite to be thy wife.
12:11 Thus saith the LORD, Behold, I will raise up evil against thee out of thine own house, and I will take thy wives before thine eyes, and give [them] unto thy neighbour, and he shall lie with thy wives in the sight of this sun.
If you want to compare David with Dr. Gaines...
You Deacons need to do your job, supply a little Nathan love....Help him. Stop the rubber stamping or your David may turn out to be a Joash.
piglet,
Use the itty bitty trashcan at the lower left just below your comment. You have to be logged in for it to show. Click on it and follow the instructions.
I took care of this one for you. Everybody's comment has a little trash can on my screen.
Stick around. We'll probably make you laugh again.
You didn't e-mail me. :-(
NASS
Communication Committee Meeting is on for this Sunday at 8:30 a.m. in Fellowship Hall-Fellowship Meeting Room #3
I called the church and spoke with Linda in the pastor`s office and she said she thought the last CC meeting was this past sunday.
Then she offered to call Harry Smith to make sure as I held on the phone and I accepted the offer.
She came back and said that there will be a CC meeting this sunday. I already posted the particulars above.
Nehemiah said...
A warning for all of those so opposed to Pastor Gaines. Remember he is the Lord's anointed servant. Something not taken lightly in the eyes of God.
Psalm 89:19-24
19 Once You spoke in vision to Your godly ones, And said, “I have given help to one who is mighty;
I have exalted one chosen from the people.
20 “I have found David My servant; With My holy oil I have anointed him,
21 With whom My hand will be established; My arm also will strengthen him.
22 “The enemy will not deceive him, Nor the son of wickedness afflict him.
23 “But I shall crush his adversaries before him, And strike those who hate him.
24 “My faithfulness and My lovingkindness will be with him,
And in My name his horn will be exalted.
11:30 AM, November 30, 2006
CHURCHMOUSE asks: David was annointed King of Israel. How does this apply to a New Testament Church?
Can you find a verse in the New Testament that warns New Testament Church members not to question the actions or doctrine of teachers or preachers that come their way?
WTB,
I respect Dr. Allison as about as close to a modern-day prophet as anyone.
For a moment, let's forget about BBC.
Let's think of First Baptist Church of XYZ-ville (FBCX), in thw town of "XYZ-ville" in rural Arkansas.
FBCX is purely fictitious.
FBCX has a majority UNregenerate membership. People say they are saved but are either confused or lying. Maybe they alternate between confused and lying at different points in time.
But hey, who can really blame an unregenerate for being confused or lying? After all, they are unregenerate.
Let's consider the consequences of a membership body which is 80% unsaved.
Well, they will nominate unregenerate deacons occasionally. How could they tell which deacons were regen and which were not?
Well, they will send unregenerate members to seminary. They will even give them good recomendations and boast of their call stories and salvation stories.
(I know for a fact there is at least one case documented of a student who was admitted to Mid-America who later confessed that he had **thought** he was saved but in fact was not.)
They will hire unregenerate contractors to supply services like lawn care, etc.
They will make unregenerate changes to policies and by laws.
Is this not the consequence of have an SBC church with 80% unrengenerate membership?
Choice
P.S. For a future conversation we need to discuss 100% regenerate, but only 20% spirit-filled. Note: it will be **identical** in behavior as to the above.
Nehemiah said:
"A warning for all of those so opposed to Pastor Gaines. Remember he is the Lord's anointed servant. Something not taken lightly in the eyes of God...
...“I have found David My servant; With My holy oil I have anointed him,"
And Hisservant wrote:
"Nehemiah: I agree and have posted this several times. Brother Steve is God's anointed and it is VERY SCARY to see amd hear how some talk about him and even to him."
RESPONSE:
Pastor Gaines is not "the" Annointed One (Jesus), or an Old Testament king, or a High Priest, or a prophet in the biblical sense. His office at times may be prophetic as he declares the Word of God, but he does not foretell the future or give new revelation.
He is a pastor which is an office to which he was called by God to serve and lead Christ's sheep. He was also called by BBC and should be accountable to the sheep.
There is nothing wrong with church members disagreeing with their pastor. The pastor should listen carefully to them and never bully them. They should be able to comunicate with him without a committee, without constant threats of sickness or death or fear mongering of the type quoted above.
Yes they should be respectful of his office. But he is to be accountable to the congregation and he is not above the Word of God (Mt. 18).
All of the members of the congregation are priests. In that they are equal to him and have the same access to God. The sheep and all they have belong to Jesus--not to the pastor. The pastor is an undershepherd entrusted with caring for ALL of the sheep.
I'm so glad that Jesus doesn't send any of His sheep away from His fold (John 6:37).
We follow Jesus because we know He truly loves us. When sheep do not follow an undershepherd closely, perhaps they have reasons that would interest the True Shepherd.
King Saul was the Lord's anointed servant, and let's see what David did
to him. David gathered up a group of armed men, and was pursued by
Saul(the anointed one) and his army. Given the opportunity to kill
Saul, David just used his knife to cut off part of his robe. David
eventually fled to the land of the Philistines, if I remember correctly,
and was even willing to fight with their army until the Philistines
decided against using him for fear of him turning against them.
I think it is pretty clear that David was opposed to the Lord's anointed
servant, Saul, and the bible clearly said that David was a man after
God's own heart. Furthermore, even though David waited on God to kill
King Saul, David still didn't serve in Saul's army, or participate in
helping prop up Saul's reign as king.
Granted, by the time of the above events, Saul had disobeyed God and
lost favor with God.
If the below person wants to try and make an Old Testament application
here, the question he/she should be asking is if the actions of pastor
Gaines in response to the issues being raised equates him with a
disobedient and unrepentant King Saul, or if it equates him with a
repentant King David after Nathan confronted him regarding his murder
and adultery. Does Gaines response to the issues he is being confronted
with align him more closely with King Saul's response or King David's
response?
Are annointed men called to do harm to the flock that Christ puts them in charge of?
Although David brings up the Ark of the Covenant to Mount Moriah, he is not allowed by God to build the Temple. A number of reasons are given. One is that the Temple is a house of God and a house of peace and David has blood on his hands from subduing the enemies of Israel. However, he is promised that his son will build it.
david, you have smeared me.
david, I forgvie you.
Choice,
I smeared you? Not on purpose. I will remove the post if you're serious.
David
Well said 25+yrs-
You reminded me of the parable of the lost sheep. Not only did the shepherd care enough about his sheep to know that one was missing (he counted them), he also cared enough to go out and get the one that was lost. It bothers me when shepherds take a "if you don't like it then leave" mentality.
Shepherds are concerned when they lose their sheep.
david, if you want to compose a new comment using my words with integrity, please continue.
God bless you,
Choice
Anyone,
Am I wrong to continue to use 1 Samuel to bolster my point about God being sorry that he appointed Saul as king? I don't want to cause a brouhaha about Old and New Testament teachings. Doesn't the Old Testament point to the New Testament.
25yrs+,
I liked your post.
Comment Deleted
This post has been removed by the author [david].
12:32 PM, November 30, 2006
david said...
Choice,
I smeared you? Not on purpose. I will remove the post if you're serious.
David
12:41 PM, November 30, 2006
david, it would have been better to leave the post there and simply move forward.
We are not looking for anything to be covered up.
What you just did was "destroy evidence."
Don't do that again.
You are more than welcome to delete for spelling, etc. But you smeared me (yes: "on purpose"). I confronted you. I forgave you. I asked you to move forward. I blessed you.
And you paid me back by destroying the evidence.
I forgive you for destroying the evidence. Please move forward. God bless you.
Choice
Choice: “Let's consider the consequences of a membership body which is 80% unsaved. Well, they will nominate unregenerate deacons occasionally. How could they tell which deacons were regen and which were not?”
You are building on an earlier post that suggested up to 80% of the modern church could be unsaved. I do not think that’s a realistic number. It may be realistic concerning attenders, but I’m not sure about members. I am not aware of a “study” that gives us the number 80%.
The reason for my concern is that your conclusion is correct: If 80% of a church were unregenerate then they would elect unregenerate leaders. This of course leads to the natural conclusion that unregenerate leaders will treat the church not as “holy” but as a business or power structure.
But I don’t see where you can get the number 80%. Besides, I would assume Bellevue to be an unusual church since it has such a high emphasis on salvation. Most of the membership in place now joined during Dr. Rogers tenure.
I did not intend to smear you, brother. I apologize and hope I stated this better.
Karen, you analogy of Samuel/David/Saul is workable in my opinion. However, there is another side to that thinking. Remember, God did anoint a new leader (David) and when David sinned he did not remove the “anointing.” The difference was their heart that chased after God.
(offline)
Choice,
I didn't destroy evidence. I didn't smear you on purpose. thank you for your forgiveness.
David
November 30, 2006
david said...
Choice: “Let's consider the consequences of a membership body which is 80% unsaved. Well, they will nominate unregenerate deacons occasionally. How could they tell which deacons were regen and which were not?”
You are building on an earlier post that suggested up to 80% of the modern church could be unsaved. I do not think that’s a realistic number. It may be realistic concerning attenders, but I’m not sure about members. I am not aware of a “study” that gives us the number 80%.
The reason for my concern is that your conclusion is correct: If 80% of a church were unregenerate then they would elect unregenerate leaders. This of course leads to the natural conclusion that unregenerate leaders will treat the church not as “holy” but as a business or power structure.
But I don’t see where you can get the number 80%. Besides, I would assume Bellevue to be an unusual church since it has such a high emphasis on salvation. Most of the membership in place now joined during Dr. Rogers tenure.
I did not intend to smear you, brother. I apologize and hope I stated this better.
Karen, you analogy of Samuel/David/Saul is workable in my opinion. However, there is another side to that thinking. Remember, God did anoint a new leader (David) and when David sinned he did not remove the “anointing.” The difference was their heart that chased after God.
12:53 PM, November 30, 2006
david said...
Choice,
I didn't destroy evidence. I didn't smear you on purpose. thank you for your forgiveness.
David
12:55 PM, November 30, 2006
25yrs,
Thanks so much for your insight. I have wondered many times and even debated that very point. How could we know that someone is appointed by God. I prayed for the selection commitee and for our new pastor but I don't pretend to know God's will as it pertains to a certain pastor being selected. The only way I feel that I know God's will is what I get from his word and I've never read that any one certain man should be our pastor. God Bless you and thanks again.
Psalm 118:6
David Matlock
I invite anyone to read my post from which david is quoting.
He has quoted my words which are immediately preceded by a two paragraph disclaimer making it virtually impossible that I am discussing Bellevue.
I simply can not believe that david missed the disclaimer.
Now, I said, "(offline)" but after clicking "login and publish" I waited for the screen to tell me if there was an error.
Now here there is more from david.
david, I reserve the right to go off line here with no additional notice.
Keep saying whatever you want. If I don't respond now, I will read it later.
The 80% statistic is not from me. If you will back up and read you will see that westennesseebarrister gave out that information. Allofgrace had soething similar and a few days ago someone else gave out that statistic, as I already mentioned.
Peace with you, And goodbye for now if I don't stay online.
choice_is_yours said...
allofgrace said...
WTB,
Paige Patterson has expressed concerns over unregenerate church members as well...I think his estimates are somewhere around 33% of the average SB church being born again believers.
10:17 PM, November 29, 2006
Was he saying only 33% of church staff are regenerate?
Was he saying only 33% of deacons are regenerate?
Is it possible that pessimistic because he has come to this blog and seen the apparent unregenerate behavior of some of the trolls and bears? Perhaps he is truly giving a prophet's warning to us?
These kinds of statistics were referenced in a previous Luke's Good News text.
10:51 AM, November 30, 2006
westtnbarrister said...
Choice,
From the Alvin Ellis/Rob Teutsch email exchange:
"Remember Dr. Rogers preached on 2 separate occasions that he feared as much as 80% of BBC is NOT saved; Dr. Gray Allison preached 75% and Billy Graham has said he fears that as little as 15% of the Church is saved."
If those men were correct, we have our explanation for the colossal apathy and lack of discernment of so many Bellevue members.
Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.
Matthew 7:21-23
11:09 AM, November 30, 2006
The commandment test says: if you can willfully and knowingly sin against the will of God with no conviction, no compunction, and no remorse, you need to get saved. A lot of people say, "Well, I walked down an aisle somewhere, and I got saved. I know I'm just an old backslider now, but I'm still saved and going to heaven."
No, you are not. If you are living that way--high, wide, and handsome--and it does not break your heart, then you do not know the God of the Bible.
Notice it doesn't say, he who has believed; it says He who believes. It is always present tense. Have you ever asked someone, "Are you saved?"
They say, "Yes, I'm saved. I remember walking down the aisle when I was nine years old, giving my hand to my pastor and my heart to Jesus Christ. Now, I may not be living for God right now, I'll admit. But I know I'm saved, because I remember what I did when I was a nine-year-old boy. I remember believing on Jesus Christ." The Bible never uses such an experience as proof of salvation. It never points back to some time when you believed on Jesus Christ.
I even hear people say, "If you cannot show me the place and the moment when you received Jesus Christ, you are not saved." That is not biblical. The Bible never says you know when or if you are saved by something you remember in the past. It says, "He that believes."
I am not saying there is not a time when you received Christ. There was a day. Absolutely. But that is not the test. The test is, do you believe in Jesus Christ now? Are you trusting in Him today? Is there evidence in your life today that you are the offspring of the living God? That is the proof of your salvation.
Whoo Hooo! Pastor David likes me! :) Seriously, though....I know Steve Gaines must have a heart turned toward God - how can we as a people help him with his attitude towards us and the staff? Any thoughts on that? Don't tell us to go to him as individuals or write letters or emails; there are too many examples on this blog and SB that have proven that those methods don't seem to work. Also, from emails I've received and posts I've read from Gardendale members, they are glad Steve Gaines is gone. One email I got says the "staff is refreshed" since Steve's absence. I just have to know that Steve's attitude and actions are not "against Bellevue" so to speak, but it's hard to convince me that his attitude is in check. Does that make sense?Thanks!
choice,
I'm sorry you got hurt. I wish I knew how to help you, but since you forgave david, you must being doing okay. Email me if you need me.
Karen
FYI,
SB is asking if anyone didn't get their questions answered by the CC.
Karen
David,
No one I know disagrees submission to authority is taught in Scripture. Believe me, we all know what Hebrews 13:17 says. But if theat authority becomes anti-biblical, we have the responsibility to obey the word of God.
The obedience suggested in Hebews 13:17 comes as a result of persuasion, not dictation. The Hebrews were to allow themselves to be persuaded to obedience. Their obedience was not to be blind obedience, but obedience that came by persuasion from those who have the rule.
This passage has been illegitimately used to set up ministerial dictatorships that take prisoner-of-war anyone who sincerely questions the teachings and practices of the ministry. This is not the point of the verse. In context the author seems to imply that the authority given to those who have the rule is the authority of the Word of God (Hebrews 13:7). If it is the Word of God, and the passage implies that those who have the rule are to do some persuading, then the obedience being spoken of not some uncritically accepted, blind obedience to anything anyone in the ministry says, but the responsibility of the saint to heed to the authority of the Word of God being spoken by the man of God. Nowhere does the Bible teach that the saints must obey those who are not teaching God's Word, but rather their own doctrines. Jesus called these the doctrines of men and rebuked those who advocated them and followed them as though they were God's Word (Mark 7:7-8; See also Matthew 15:9; Colossians 2:22). The authority of the ministry is rooted in the Word of God.
Nowhere does the Bible teach that a man's opinion becomes as binding as the Word of God simply because of his position, yet some illegitimately teach from Hebrews 13:17 that if the ministry says "Jump," the response of the congregation should be "How high?". Such a teaching is unbiblical. The ministry is not equal with God so that they can teach and do whatever they like without accountability to someone. They are shepherds over God's flock to lead it and guide it to Him, not to themselves. They are under-shepherds to the Great Shepherd, and thus cannot simply make up their own rules for all to follow. Their teachings must be rooted in the teachings of the Great Shepherd.
The saints are to be submissive to those who have the rule, following them as they follow Christ, but they are also to be convinced that they are following the direction and truth of God being expressed through the man of God, and not the man himself.
For some interesting info on the unregenerate Southern Baptist Church, please see:
Article 1
and
Article 1
Adrian Rogers Warns Pastors: Sin Fascinates, Then Assassinates
by Debbie Moore
WAKE FOREST, N.C. (BP)--Sin often is a combination of three things: an undetected weakness, an unexpected temptation and an unprotected life. "Put those three together and you have the making of tragedy," says Adrian Rogers, pastor of Bellevue Baptist Church, Cordova, Tenn.
If pastors don't stay on guard, Rogers says, they can easily fall into sin, creating a chain reaction of consequences. The sin of casualness leads to carelessness, which develops into callousness, he says, for "sin fascinates and then assassinates. Sin is so deceitful."
Over the years, a person may become careless, especially those who have been in the ministry a long time because "we can think that we'll never be overcome by that sin or this sin."
"Then I've seen strange alchemy, a devilish metamorphosis takes place," Rogers says, of watching pastors stumble. "I've seen them do and say things that they would never have dreamt of doing or saying before they were hardened by the deceitfulness of sin."
Rogers challenges pastors to study the lives of the great men of God who committed sin. When they fell, "you'll find almost every one of them fell not at the point of their weakness but at the point of their strength," such as Abraham, who is known for his great faith, but did not have faith to trust God for the care of his wife, and Simon Peter, who is known for his courage but was reduced to cursing and denying Christ "at the finger-pointing of a little girl."
A Christian can be used for evil "if you take your eyes from Jesus Christ and become casual and careless," Rogers says. Before long that person will become callous, and that's when disaster can strike, including death.
Sin has a cost, so "deal with sin quickly," for a life of unconfessed sin leads to "spiritual dryness" and a lack of joy, Rogers says.
When a Christian sins, Rogers says God has four steps he can take that person through:
Conviction. Conviction is a feeling of being dirty, along with a desire for cleansing. However, "If you're living in sin and there's no conviction, let me just tell you plainly, you need to get saved," Rogers says. "If God's hand is not heavy upon you, you are lost." If a person does not get his life right with God because of conviction, then God uses a second step.
Chastisement. Chastisement can take a variety of forms, Rogers says, citing sickness, sorrow, failure and heartache. If after conviction and chastisement the Christian has not turned from his sin, Rogers says God uses a third step.
Challenge. "You don't want to be there," Rogers said. Usually a challenge "will come only one time," from either a preacher, a family member, a tragedy or a sermon, "but God in some way will say, 'You are the man'" who did something wrong, as the prophet Nathan told King David. If a Christian still has not repented after conviction, chastisement and challenge, Rogers says God brings about a fourth and final step.
Consummation. At this point, Rogers says, God is saying, "Something is going to be done about this" because if a person is truly a child of God he cannot continue in sin. "I'm telling you, there is a line that you cannot cross," Rogers says. "God will kill you because you're his child. If you're living in sin and God kills you, you'd better thank God for it because if you're living in sin and God doesn't kill you, you've never been saved."
Rather than being casual, careless and then becoming callous toward sin, Rogers says, "I want to plead with you from my heart: Pay the price, stay pure." Though other ministers may give way to sin, "you cannot," and, he adds, "When you've been on the trail as long as I've been on the trail, I can promise you, you'll be so glad you did."
west,
I don't think I was using hebrews as an example of blind obedience. I was using it to point out that there are still leaders set aside in the N.T. This is becuase all Believers have the "anointing" of the Holy Spirit, the question becomes: Are there still leaders today? i think Hebrews tells us there are still leaders. Also, there are a plurality of leaders (at Bellevue, Deacons/Staff/Pastor).
Anyway, I want to be clear: I was not advocating blind total obedience to a man over the Word of God.
STILLWATERS! Where did you find that? That is soooooo good! Thanks for sharing that. Even in death, Dr. Rogers heart still rings true.
Karen
Karen,
God bless, you!
Yes, I completely forgive david. I'm not even waiting for him to bring up the thing I have forgiven him for again. It's history, but it should **remain** history, not be deleted.
He is more than welcome to continue the conversation that wtb and I were having. Unfortunately, I will probably be logging off here shortly and will have to resume the discusion with wtb later.
Perhaps wtb and david should continue since they both have interesting points of view in application specifically to Bellevue.
Apparently my attempt to talk about a fictitous church were not appreciated. I'm not comfortable talking about bbc with these 80% statistics.
I think they should discuss Bellevue as they both already have. I'll just let them go ahead if so. I'll excuse myself until we can agree to talk about a fictitous place.
Choice
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