It's now after the meeting. As usual, we got little in the way of answers from the committee. Most questions were met with, "I don't know," or "None of us are on that committee. You need to ask them," or a new and novel approach, a blank stare accompanied by, "Thank you for the question. Next question?" I went in hoping for at least some answers, but the fact that we didn't get answers doesn't mean the meeting was a waste of time.
Indeed, this was a very important meeting. There were well over 200 people in attendance, and Mark Sharpe had the opportunity to ask questions and to speak. For many, this was the first time they'd had an opportunity to see Mark and hear from him. Leaving the room and walking down the hallway afterwards, I heard snippets of conversations along the way, and people were saying things like, "I'm glad we got to hear Mark Sharpe. I think he's telling the truth." Or "I didn't know who Mark Sharpe was, but after hearing what he said, I really do think we've got problems." Or "I really do think God sent Mark Sharpe to Bellevue at this time."
This is what was accomplished this morning! People are one by one pulling their heads out of the sand and considering that this may be a lot more than just a small group of disgruntled members who don't like the music or who are just upset because Steve Gaines isn't Adrian Rogers.
Sister Pam Gremillion is writing a transcript of the meeting which she is publishing in the comments of this thread.
1. Did you attend the December 3rd meeting?
2. What were your impressions?
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Martha Eberhart said...
"I am in the 69+ category..I am 71. I have been at Bellevue since 1952, when I was 17. I have sung in the choir since 1960, after 4 years at Baylor. I sang solos during Tommy Lane's tenure, but never since. I have loved Bellevue and am heartsick over what is happening now. I went through the travesty with Dr. Pollard and his dissenters, and wept. I was at the service when we had to stand and vote whether we wanted him to stay or go. Dr. Rogers always gave Dr. Pollard credit for preparing the way for him, for passing to him a church that loved its pastor and each other.
I spent twenty-five years as a financial advisor, retiring two years ago. During all that time I was never allowed to talk to any groups concerning charitable giving, or any of the other ways a member could benefit Bellevue through his will or charitable trust. I once sent a letter to the seniors offering to assist them in retirement planning, etc., and received a very ugly letter from Bob Sorrell telling me "never to do that again". I offered to help with the counselling ministry, knowing that money is a constant source of disagreement between young married people. I was told "No". Now we have the Bellevue Foundation, after many years of asking for just such an entity. I realize that, because I am a woman, there will never be a place for me at Bellevue, but I have always loved it and supported it fiercely. Now my heart is broken. My Bellevue doesn't exist any more, at least not the Bellevue I have known and loved for so long.
Now I am one of the "old" people, although I find it hard to realize. I do believe that those of us who feel as I do should speak out. We are truly being pushed aside or pushed out. The music we sing tells us that. We were told from the beginning of Steve Gaines' ministry that we were going to target young people. As if no one ever had, what with our youth programs, mission trips, and the abundance of young people who represent fourth and fifth generation Bellevue members. My own parents were members of Bellevue, and now my grandchildren...that is four generations.
That is fine, but what about us...the ones who have been here and remain here? Where are we to go?
Martha Eberhart"
Martha, welcome and thank you for posting your concerns. You are in good company here. Can you come to the Communications Committee Meeting in the morning at 8:00? It will be in the room behind the Events Registration Center. We are expecting a good group of people. This may be our last opportunity to meet with the Communications Committee. We need you. No one will ask you to speak or call attention to you. Please bring your friends and help us. If we don't make our stand, we will have to accept the consequences.
This is my reply to Mrs. Eberhart from another thread:
Karen said...
HI MRS. EBERHART!!!!
I am so glad you posted - I know right exactly where your heart is - just hang in a little bit longer. I love you and Teresa so much! I'm attaching my "open letter" here so you can copy and paste to an email to everyone you know - we need to up the attendance at the Communciations Committee Meeting on December 3rd. Remember it's at 8:00; not 8:30. Email me at anytime!!
Love you!!! Karen
This is my open letter to Bellevue - feel free to copy it and send to any and all Bellevue members:
Dear Bellevue Member,
I would like to ask you a favor. Would you please attend the Communications Committee meeting this Sunday, December 3rd at 8:00 am. No one will ask you anything and you don't have to sign a roster to register your attendance. You also don't have to ask any questions unless you want to. Last week's attendance at the meeting was over 100 people. This week we'd like to double, triple even quadruple that number. Please forward this request to any and all Bellevue members. If people will just listen and then seek the truth for themselves, truth will be revealed. They don't have to take my word for it, or the blog or savingbellevue.com, but truth will be revealed.
Also, if you don't feel comfortable in asking people via email, will you make phone calls this weekend and invite people? I would do it for you if I could - feel free to send me any emails or phone numbers you wish and I promise to contact them.
Love in Jesus,
Karen Turk Marshall
1:29 PM, December 01, 2006
Mrs. Eberhart,
That is a problem that is going around the country. The baby-boom generation which you are on the front of is a huge group of people, and the echo boom generation, which is just now coming into their adult years (which is about 20% larger than the baby boom generation).
Each people group has specific needs that need to be met, and there is no easy solution. I have considered many times to start a church for folks 50 and up and build a ministry specific to their needs.
Most churches generally place most of their evangelism emphasis into the younger generation because of the statistics to get kids to Christ at an early age.
The scriptures are very clear to honor and serve the older generation, as of yet there has not been a large emphasis placed in reaching the folks 50+. I believe we (the country) is on the verge of a new movement of God that will force many churches to redefine how they do church. Change is never easy, but in the long run, all believers will benefit.
What is this change going to look like, I have not a clue. But let me tell you this, you are not alone, there are roughly 80 million people in this country in the age 50+ group. Seminaries and church growth consultants, nor any human being on the planet, has experienced this large of a population shift, all happening within a span of 10-15 years.
God has not forgotten you, nor are you a leftover. As we enter into the Christmas season, the birth of our Savior is surrounded by folks who were considered to be in the last half of life. Read the story of Zacharias in Luke 1, and Anna in Luke chapter 2.
God has great plans for you, they may or may not be at BBC, but He definitely has a job for you, that will be beyond your wildest expectation.
Thanks for posting that 25+
I'm writing to you from the Dallas area, and I have to say, I'm shocked and very concerned for the future of Bellevue, reputed to be one of the largest and strongest churches in the US. BCC appears to be imploding and disintegrating right before your very eyes. I'm no Bible scholar, but isn't this how Satan works? Attack the biggest and strongest, use their pride against them, and drag everyone around them down as well?
Posters like "Pastor" are tools for destruction. "Pastor" is NOT Gaines. I'd bet you can check his appointment schedule and figure this out in about 5 minutes. "Tim", "25+", this chicken will not reveal himself, but he's not Gaines. Stop worrying about what "Pastor" will preach this Sunday, because he's likely not even going on Sundays, but he is among you. Close enough to know Karen's past.
Face it, no Pastor of a 30,000 member church like BCC, no CEO, no government leader has the time, inclination, luxury, nor responsibility to rest on Blogs like this, and post the sewage Pastor has posted.
As for the 18 point demand list, good luck getting that heard. Demands, ultimatums, and the like do nothing but close off communications.
Karen, don't be ashamed of your past problems. Actually, embrace them. They are what made you what you are.
I know people who know Gaines, and have known him for over 25 years, continuously interacting with him. The Gaines I've heard about is nothing like the Gaines you blog about (well, maybe going over the fence is).
Give the guy a break, change is hard for everyone when churches bring in new leadership, especially after someone as popular and revered as Dr. Rogers. Gaines isn't intent on destroying BCC, only making it better. Do you seriously believe God would put Gaines in as pastor to destroy BCC? Do you think God would allow the Devil to disable ALL of the Leadership's mental capacity in selecting Gaines as your pastor? I'd bet against it, personally.
I've watched First Baptist Dallas and Prestonwood Baptist (also Dallas) go through very similar evolutions. Fortunately for them, there was no Internet anonymity behind which to hide. No blogs to spread misconception and hate, innuendos, accusations, hurtful disclosures like Pastor's, and so on. Issues had to be resolved face to face.
It's time to start being productive, instead of divisive. I'm not big on cliche's, but my mantra is Fix problems, Not blame. There's no way to really know the truth behind Coombs and the Alcohol, the cheerleading trips, the reimbursements, etc. You can ask for "transparency" all you want, but where does it stop? No pastor and leadership team can manage 30,000 members all wanting to scrutinize every decision they make. No amount of money or acclaim is worth that. Questioning giving money to another church becuase of who attends? Didn't Jesus walk directly among the sinners in order to convert them? You can't save the unsaved at arm's length. Frankly, I wish there was more inter-faith cooperation between the Catholics, Baptists, Methodists, etc. I was proud to hear what BCC did for FUMC. You should, too.
BCC has got to pull together to regain perspective and direction, as an entire community. Stop looking for problems, and start looking for solutions. You could even consider bringing in an experienced outsider like Chuck Swindoll, my pastor, to help. Otherwise, the Devil has won, easily. Remember, the Devil is the enemy, not the Church leadership. You MUST start believing your leadership is being led by God. If not, bail on the Church because the Devil will get you, too.
Open your hearts and minds, and pray for God to set the direction. We're praying for you in Dallas.
Yours in Christ,
Brian McGregor
Remember Sunday is the day we meet as fellow believers in Jesus Christ. Build do not destroy. Glorify the Lord through your actions and deeds. Church is not a building it is like minded people worshiping the God of the universe.
Ephesians 4:25-32
25 Therefore, laying aside falsehood, SPEAK TRUTH EACH ONE of you WITH HIS NEIGHBOR, for we are members of one another.
26 BE ANGRY, AND yet DO NOT SIN; do not let the sun go down on your anger,
27 and do not give the devil an opportunity.
28 He who steals must steal no longer; but rather he must labor, performing with his own hands what is good, so that he will have something to share with one who has need.
29 Let no unwholesome word proceed from your mouth, but only such a word as is good for edification according to the need of the moment, so that it will give grace to those who hear.
30 Do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, by whom you were sealed for the day of redemption.
31 Let all bitterness and wrath and anger and clamor and slander be put away from you, along with all malice.
32 Be kind to one another, tender-hearted, forgiving each other, just as God in Christ also has forgiven you.
Minor point, but BBC has a membership of about 18,000 or so - 12,000 of that regularly cited 30,000 figure is of "whereabouts unknown" based on the return mail BBC gets.
Brother Tim,
May I ask you something?
Tim wrote:
Of course, when your sermons are written by first year seminary kids and then re-written to become a self-serving rendition of sermon, what do you expect?
What's this about? Has a seminary student accused Dr. Gaines of plagiarism? When did it happen? Do you know if it was a Mid-America student?
Psalm43,
From the other thread....I don't want to debate grammatical issues and etc. but I just want to show you how unreasonable you are.
There is a difference between ignorance and tired fingers.
How do you know that Pastor didn't have tired fingers? your = 4 keystrokes... you're = 6 keystrokes.
Oh, nevermind...I see how your define each word. Ignorance belongs to someone who disagrees with you and tired is the excuse you use when you make a mistake.
I have no doubt that you know that word should have been capitalized. I was just illustrated a point that you're being too critical about things and you make mistakes too.
You obviously don't have a clue as to the meaning of the dialogue between "pastor" and me.
I've read the whole conversation. I know exactly what the dialogue has been, thank you very much.
Good try...now be a good little boy and go away so the grown-ups can talk.
Cute stuff...cute...
ace,
Could you truly defend the things "pastor" said about me yesterday and to Karen today?
NASS
sr-
Steve Gaines visited a preaching class at Mid-America and told the students that a seminary student at Southern Seminary acts as a sort of sermon starter for him. To be fair, other pastors of larger churches use homiletic secretaries to rough out sermons. Apparently, it caused a lot of talk among the students there since they are taught to craft sermons from start to finish.
Ezekial,
If you had a scrap going over on the other post, why did you bring it over here? Just spreading your confusion again, diverting attention?
No, I am simply following NBBCOF's instructions. Per his/her last post:
ATTENTION EVERYONE!!!
TIME TO TIE A KNOT IN THIS ONE AND MOVE UP.
I hope you will forgive me for following the blog owner's instructions....
NBBCOF,
Could you truly defend the things "pastor" said about me yesterday and to Karen today?
No, I don't agree with every single thing he said. But I don't disagree either with every single thing either (I'm talking about all his posts here....not just one or two).
psalm 43:3,
Thank you for your response. That's certainly not something MABTS students are taught, and I can imagine it creating a ruckus.
phil4:13,
Good points. God may have sent him here..but God could have other reasons we can't see. They can only be proved out as we follow through and stand on what we're convicted is right..either way...God will prevail.
concerned said:
Karen, don't be ashamed of your past problems. Actually, embrace them. They are what made you what you are.
I'm not ashamed, but I really didn't need to have them broadcast all over the world either. Granted, I revealed the depth of them and pastor never responded to to me via email and I don't think he ever engaged my in conversation again. To say that the Holy Spirit revealed my personal issues to him is a lot of bunk - I believe he has researched me or knows me from somewhere and is trying to use my past against. Looks like it backfired though. Everyone has been very supportive and has totally written pastor off. I feel sorry for any ministers that call themselves "pastor" if this heathen actually is one. Well, whatever, God will deal with him. I'm glad my husband doesn't know who he is - he REALLY wants to confront this man for what he did here today - in Christian love, of course. ;-)
Thanks to everyone on the blog who prayed for me today - I really could feel them.
Karen
Mrs. Eberhart,
I appreciate so much your post. My heart breaks when I think of how so many churches, including ours is treating the pillars of our church. Quite honestly, I find it completely disgusting.
Bellevue Baptist Church needs this group of individuals that are rich in wisdom. There is so much that we could and should learn from you and others like you.
The church needs to quit worrying so much about the political ramifications of who it is appealing to and who it is not appealing to and start worrying about the God that it is supposed to be serving. The very idea that we should target a particular age group or type of person is not supported by any Biblical principle. God has made one way and only one way, Jesus Christ, who was crucified and rose from the dead. There are not multiple ways that are more appealing to some people than others. We need to preach Christ. Period.
It is God that provides the increase, so we have no glory if we have great increase, nor do we have shame if there is none, provided that we have done what God has commanded which is to preach Christ and Him crucified. However, if we preach any other gospel, if we do anything to alter that gospel to make it more attractive or appealing, then we have forsaken the Word of God and are no longer worthy to be called by His Name.
"pastor"
Thanks for the change in tone. However, you wrote:
"Each people group has specific needs that need to be met, and there is no easy solution. I have considered many times to start a church for folks 50 and up and build a ministry specific to their needs."
RESPONSE: Isn't it amazing that when Paul wrote to NT churches that they had people in them of all ages. That way the older ladies could teach the younger and the older men could teach the younger... etc.
I don't think we need churches that specialize in reaching a certain age group. Bellevue once was doing quite well reaching all ages. And when you hear them singing together across the generations... well... that's how it sounds like it is in heaven.
You said, "there is no easy solution." But there is...
Love them all.
Tim,
Amen brother...any of you guys out there calling yourselves "pastors" who think you have a Biblical mandate to target only a particular age group or any other demographic, need to get in the Word you claim as your source. Heed the words of the Lord Jesus: "Do you love me more than these?....then feed my sheep." Notice he made no reference to age, gender, income...those of you who practice such things just to get notches on your own belts will have to answer one day.
ezekiel wrote:
"Pastor reminds me of "pastor David" from my post back on Nov 15 @4:27 pm."
Don't think so unless the same person created two accounts. However, I noticed "Pastor Dave" hasn't made his profile visible, so next time he posts, he's outta here.
NBBCOF
25+
Great post and I agree with you 100%.
Concerning the older teaching the younger, that is certainly the case in a lot of smaller congregations, but once a congregation gets above 500 people, the dynamics start to change to a more corporate environment, which concerned4you addressed correctly in his post earlier this evening.
FWIW...
I think the "pastor" on this thread was the same as on the previous thread...
And I think everyone knows who I think that was. At one point he wrote "I have not a clue."
I agree... but... jmo.
"pastor"
You mentioned "corporate environment"... Yes that is the problem. "Senior Pastors" and titles that echo the corporate world. God help us!
Churches are to be families of faith. The sad thing is that what you are describing is the relegation of the elderly to age specific churches that sound like nursing homes.
Real revival awaits real repentance over how we treat the elderly among us.
Dyanmics and demographics are not the issue..God's word and His commands are the issue.
cjesusnme
you have mail.
25+
I didn’t say having a church targeting 50+ was a good idea. You are correct, we are a family of faith, it is a delight when folks of all ages worship, serve and witness at the same time from the same congregation.
allof grace,
You are right, dynamics and demographics are not the issue, however, it is the world we live in.
"pastor"
Are you the same poster who called NASS a "rock star"?
pastor said...
"NASS,
You are a rock star. You are enjoying the attention you are recieving, for the first time in your life you did something that created a cultic following.
Matt 12:36 you will answer to, for instigating this format, and the occassional careless words you write.
The world of blogging will watch, and examine themselves.
Here is the test of what I am saying is true, if this is just my imagination, non of this will come true in the near future, if this is of the Holy Spirit, take heed.
1. You will lose big time on an investment.
2. Your job will be in jeopardy
3. Family situations will arise
4. Severe health situation will arise
Beware. I would walk around in fear, and degrade or delete this post so you will feel better.
To the rest of you, watch NASS's life and take heed."
4:00 PM, December 01, 2006
"pastor"
The prophecy above... was that your post?
karen posted: TO PASTOR:
FOR THE RECORD THIS IS KAREN'S HUSBAND. I DON'T HAVE A BLOG NAME ON THIS PARTICULAR BLOG NOR HAVE I INVOLVED MYSELF IN THIS SITUATION.
PASTOR, I REALLY DON'T CARE WHO YOU ARE! I'M ONLY RESPONDING AT THIS TIME BECAUSE YOU HAVE PERSONALLY ATTACKED MY WIFE! KAREN STOOD UP TO YOU AND ADMITTED SOMETHING THAT SHE IS NOT PROUD OF AND BELIEVE ME WHEN I TELL YOU THAT IT WAS A VERY DIFFICULT DECISION. YOU MAY NOT HAVE CAST THE FIRST STONE, BUT INDEED, SIR, YOU DID CAST A STONE. ARE YOU WITHOUT SIN? IT APPEARS THAT YOU ARE AMUSING YOURSELF BY PROVIDING SARCASTIC AND HURTFUL REMARKS. YOU ARE INDEED A COWARD AND A BULLY!
ON A PERSONAL LEVEL, I HAVE KNOWN KAREN FOR ABOUT A YEAR AND WE'VE BEEN MARRIED FOR 2 MONTHS. SHE BROUGHT ME BACK TO CHURCH. SHE AND HER FAMILY HAVE BEEN A GREAT INSPIRATION TO ME.
RANDY
REPLY: I totally understand why you are upset and defending your wife. I would do the same thing. What I DO NOT understand is why MOST on here just do not get they are guilty of this same HORRIBLE stuff every single day on this blog and other places.
It hurts when someone you love is attacked does it not?? Then WHY do MOST on here attack Brother Steve and a huge list of others every day. The double standard is UNREAL and make me SICK!! Many on here come to the defense of Karen and others ASAP (which I understand) BUT, then a few posts later attack Brother Steve or someone else with a horrible personal attack. Many on here make things PERSONAL every single day. They seem to enjoy it and that is scary.
MANY of YOU have put Brother Steve and his family and others through a great deal. You have hurt Brother Steve, His family, his wife, his children etc etc. Not to mention all the others that have been attacked and their families.
But somehow many on here try to justify their horrible attacks?? How??
It DOES NOT matter what has been done. What is true or what is not. Your hate filled personal attacks cannot be defended.
It makes me sick to my stomach to see many of you post in Jesus name and all this great sounding spiritual stuff. I hate to tell you, but most of the threads on here are in NO way what Jesus would post. Many on here need to open their eyes and READ their own posts. Most are filled with horrible attacks and hate and contain very little if any love.
This blog and many posts on it represent a great deal of what is wrong with the church today.
5% of this blog is serious issues that are posted or talked about in a loving way.
Many of you have gone to the other Committee meetings and will go tomorrow and have horrible attitudes. Many walk into Bellevue in 100% self/flesh and it is very easy to see. But you are in there trying to focus on someone else and their "issues".
try looking in the mirror
let me get this straight. Karen and others think "pastor" on here is Brother Steve??
HisServant-1,
How are you familar with the CC meetings? Have you been there?
some. please do not change the subject, you are very good at that, but not with me.
hisservant-1
We have a pastor that has been corrupted by wealth and power. Satan has used him to hijack our church. He is arrogant and untrustworthy. He is responsible for our losing much loved and godly servant-leaders. Karen has repented and been forgiven by God (as have the rest of us). Gaines continues in his sin and uses his power and the pulpit to justify or cover it up - along with the help of a handful of equally corrupt men. We will not sit quietly by and watch it happen.
Now I'm going to bed so I can be at an 8:00 meeting.
HisServant-1,
If you haven't been there then by what right to you even pretend to know the hearts of others. Even if you have been there you would not know the hearts of others.
It is truly sad that this blog came into existence because the leadership of this church feared the truth to the extent that they would not allow the fullfillment of Scripture to be executed.
It is doubly sad that people have had to come here to get the truth, because the church has been filled with "talking point" lies. If you have any part in that then you should be ashamed.
Great post, hisservant. You are so true...
Piglet: it does not suprise me to see you try and justify the hate filled attacks on this blog and other places. very sad
I am a rock star now, over 100 people have checked my profile and sending me some awesome email.
NASS and I can start our own rock band.
What do you think of Mrs. Eberhart's post hisservant?
"pastor"
Are you going to answer my question? Are you the one who called NASS a "rock star"?
hisservant-1,
If you wanted to really see very sad, then you need to go look in the bathroom mirror. You and your wife that post under the same name have forsaken the word of God to seek riches and you would be content to see the church do the same. Now that is sad.
my wife? you have no clue what you are talking about SIR! again, you can do nothing without some how some way making it personal. I am done responding to you. it is sad that you think you know who I am. you are forming a FALSE perception of someone because you are wrong about whoever you think I am. that is not fair to the person you think I am. i have no one time tried to find out who anyone is on here. not once
I usually check this blog once or twice a day to see what new things people are going on about. It amazes me to see how much time some of the people spend on this site, citing the same posts over and over again. I can appreciate the passion everyone has on here for wanting to speak their opinions, and to prove that they are right.
It bothers me to see that people are still posting during the church service times, talking about withholding tithes, and donations. I was always taught that we give our tithes to the Lord, not the church, and that when we give, we give with compassion and not with conditions.
I am prepared to be slammed for this post, cause I have been on here long enough to see what happens when someone posts an unpopular opinion. I also have decided that there is no benefit to me being on this blog and taking time away from my family reading about everyines gossip, and reading lists of demands that must be met. I wish you all the best and hope that this comes to a conclusion that everyone canbe happy with, if that is possible.
hisservant1 said...
"5% of this blog is serious issues that are posted or talked about in a loving way"
Sir, from the quality of your posts, you are most definitely in the other 95%. Your tone is decidedly spiteful and filled with animosity.
You need to go to bed now so you can be there at 8:00 am.
And for the rest of us - Good night, sleep tight, don't let the trolls bite:)
pastor said...
allof grace,
You are right, dynamics and demographics are not the issue, however, it is the world we live in.
Well...this "world we live in" happens to be owned and operated by the same God who wrote these words: "Do you love me more than these?...then feed my sheep."...dynamics and demographics do not change the command.
pastor wrote:
"NASS and I can start our own rock band."
In your dreams! (You know all about dreams, don't you?)
NASS
hisservant-1,
You could still look in the bathroom mirror and see what truly sad is. Truly sad is someone who doesn't care about the truth, because someone might get hurt by it. Truly sad is not caring about the people that have already been hurt by the lies. You are truly sad.
all of grace,
You are correct, we have to learn to work within the dynamics and demographics for the glory of God, in a Christian way.
tim wrote to hisservant-1:
"You and your wife that post under the same name... "
That's what I've been thinking, or it's some family member or acquaintance. Have you noticed how one time Mr. Deacon uses the "Shift" key properly, then the rest of the time he can't seem to find either of them except when talking about himself in the first person? Just my observation.
NASS
pastor said...
all of grace,
You are correct, we have to learn to work within the dynamics and demographics for the glory of God, in a Christian way.
No what we have to do is proclaim God's gospel as written in scripture..in other words the WHOLE counsel of God to ALL people...regardless of age, gender, economics...and FEED THE SHEEP.
cjesusnme,
I believe that HisServant has suffered enough embarassment from me. I hope that he is at the CC meeting tomorrow so that perhaps someone else can cause him the embarassment.
Poor fellow. After a point in time you have told so many lies that you no longer no the truth yourself and believe your own lies. Now that is truly sad.
Tim,
Poor fellow. After a point in time you have told so many lies that you no longer no the truth yourself and believe your own lies. Now that is truly sad.
Hmm...that looks familiar. Isn't that what someone told you a week or so ago? Wait a sec...I think it is....
Ace,
No wonder you don't have an opinion on anything. It appears that you can't remember anything from one week to the next.
Tim,
No wonder you don't have an opinion on anything.
I don't have an opinion? What have I been posting the past few weeks? I posted my views on the issues already. I have answered questions that have been directed my way. But you have already decided to reject everything I say before I say it, so...
It appears that you can't remember anything from one week to the next.
No, I have a great memory, thank you for your concern.
Shouldn't you be heading to bed soon? You want to be well-rested for that meeting tomorrow and not all grumpy. That is, unless you're still sick....
Ace,
If you are going to be such a waste of time couldn't you at least try to be more entertaining. Just a thought. I am going to head for bed. Someone else may care to waste their time with you.
Tim,
If you are going to be such a waste of time
So I'm a waste of time? How so? Because you disagree with me... Wow, great answer.
couldn't you at least try to be more entertaining.
No, not really. I'm not here to entertain you, Timmy. Turn on your TV if you want entertainment.
I am going to head for bed.
Goodnight, precious.
Someone needs to stay up and baby sit Ace. I know that this is a job that no one wants to volunteer for, but the kiddies shouldn't be up unsupervised.
WOW Tim,
YOU are the entertaining one! Spunk you have! And you are most certainly precious in God's eyes.
But alas, I am sorry, I am too old to babysit.
Tim,
Someone needs to stay up and baby sit Ace. I know that this is a job that no one wants to volunteer for, but the kiddies shouldn't be up unsupervised.
I am a big boy...I can watch myself. But if we have another volunteer that would be cool...my mommy said I could stay up as late as I want to tonight and I need someone to talk to.
mom4,
And you are most certainly precious in God's eyes.
As he is in Ace's eyes, as well...
Ace,
I am finishing up my sermon for later this morning, what would you like to talk about?
Where are you preaching "pastor"?
25+
In Church,
25+ I really like you (no sarcasm)
Pastor,
Have fun finishing it up...I hope you do well tomorrow, as I'm sure you will!
I don't really want to talk about anything in particular....I'm just here to mingle with others should anybody post anything that's worth discussing! :)
I need some help,
I am preaching on Mal 3:8-10, does anyone have a testimony of the faithfulness of God in their lives in relation to their tithing or giving they would be willing to share.
(hint 25+) put the pieces together after you go to church tomorrow.
Pastor, I do. Although I am not willing to discuss it publicly on here
flatfoot,
If you would like you can email it to me at pastorwho@yahoo.com
Thanks.
you can email me first
david just asked the $500,000 question... jmo
David,
You need to make your profile viewable otherwise your post is going to be deleted.
You can elect not to show your email address by editing your profile options. Just giving you a heads up!
david,
It's now a requirement for everyone who posts comments to make his or her profile visible. You don't have to have any personally identifying information in your profile, but you must make it visible. Otherwise, your posts will be deleted.
Thanks,
NBBCOF
and no email from pastor yet....
David,
The internet is a wonderful thing, however, one day all church arguments will end up on the web, technology never goes backwards.
With human nature being what it is, people will always vent. Iteresting thing, people did say the same thing about newspapers and telephones as well. I assume one day there will be so many blogs about church fights, people will no longer pay any attention to them.
25+ is still waiting for me to answer your other question.
David, you sound like a great pastor with a heart for people.
flatfoot, I sent you an email about 5 minutes ago.
reply coming
Ace said
No, I don't agree with every single thing he said. But I don't disagree either with every single thing either (I'm talking about all his posts here....not just one or two).
Does make sense?He is either hisservents or Bill Clinton's son
Ace,
There you go, I think confused wants to play with you some more.
Pastor, I sent you an email, and I pray that you are acting in the right spirit when asking me to share with you and that this is not some game.
ace said
I am a big boy...I can watch myself. But if we have another volunteer that would be cool...my mommy said I could stay up as late as I want to tonight and I need someone to talk to.
Speaks like an adult.
Are you working the late shift at Burger King tomorrow?
Confused,
Does make sense?He is either hisservents or Bill Clinton's son
Huh? What do you mean by "Does make sense?"
And, darn, you figured me out. Please don't alert the media to inform them that Bill has a son. They would have a field day with this info. So shhh...that'll be our little secret. ;)
Oh - and I am not related to HisServant, for the 100th time...
pastor Are you going tell another fortune tonight?
Confused,
Speaks like an adult.
It's called a joke. People laugh at them, you know. - Do you know what laughter is?
ace will you be at the metting tomorrow?
flatfoot,
You blessed my heart with that testimony, I will share it with my congregation as an email from a friend, I will not use your name.
Thank you for sharing, that was awesome! There will be some folks blessed and encouraged later this morning hearing that testimony.
Confused,
ace will you be at the metting tomorrow?
Somebody asked me that already and I answered it...but I'll answer it again. No, I will be unable to attend it due to previous commitments at Bellevue.
Somebody asked me that already and I answered it...but I'll answer it again. No, I will be unable to attend it due to previous commitments at Bellevue.
Seems you always have an excuse to not be there. Is it really a commitment? Once you see us and see the anguish that some people are going through ,you just might realize that there is something here.Try to see both sides of this issue on a personal level,with an open mind.Seriously Ace come to the meeting.
Confused,
Seems you always have an excuse to not be there.
What are you talking about? I do not always have an excuse. I have never stated if I've been at a previous meeting, so don't even think about putting words in my mouth. This is the first meeting I've ever been asked if I was going to attend/if I attended. Go do your research and you'll see I'm correct.
Is it really a commitment?
Yes, I have some responsibilities to take care of and that is of higher importance for me than going to that meeting. Why do you have to question every single thing I say? Can't you take my word for once?
Seriously Ace come to the meeting.
You don't understand the importance of a commitment, do you? I will not be at the Sunday a.m. meeting and I'm not changing my mind about that.
David,
Awesome post, you sound like a great pastor.
David,
Excellent post. Thank you for sharing your testimony of your church background and your thoughts... it was a really good read.
Yes, Josh. Homebound members don't get to hear the morning message until a week later.
Would you please summarize it and put it in context?
Thank you.
Wounded,
Brother Harry said that he was asked if Brother Mark Sharpe might ask some questions at the meeting and that he had given permission for this to happen.
You said that Harry was asked...so he answered the question. What's wrong with that?
This was confusing to Brother Charles, knowing that Brother Mark Sharpe is still a member of Bellevue and therefore has the same opportunity to ask questions as any member without the expressed permission from a church leader.
You shouldn't be confused at Harry, because as your specifically wrote, he was asked if Mark would be able to answer a question and he answer the quesion.
What am I missing here?
Anyone can listen to today's message on Bellevue's website.
At the close of the sermon the pastor apologized for his handling of Dr. Whitmire's resignation, his comments about Bellevue at Gardendale and in Union City.
You should listen and draw your own conclusions.
I'm just curious. I wonder how many bloggers on this site would be willing to post the following statement, without exception, elaboration, or qualification:
As of the end of today's morning worship service, I am willing to forgive Pastor Steve and move forward with a clean slate.
When is Steve Gaines going to start making changes to our Church policies and bylaws?
Why will he not speak to this?
Is he really going to change our bylaws?
maybejustmaybe,
Not without elaboration...
NASS
Anyone else? As goes the moderator, so goes the blog?
I really appreciate the sincerity and humbleness of your response, sw&w. In my opinion, it takes quite a man to stand and do what Bro. Steve did this morning, and I believe our church family's willingness to forgive and move forward say much about who we are (in Christ), as well. Thank you.
maybejustmaybe,
You specifically stated, "I'm just curious. I wonder how many bloggers on this site would be willing to post the following statement, without exception, elaboration, or qualification:
"As of the end of today's morning worship service, I am willing to forgive Pastor Steve and move forward with a clean slate."
I was simply honoring your request. I didn't say I couldn't forgive him. I said I would have to elaborate, and you asked that we not. You can't have it both ways!
NASS
True, NASS, true. Go ahead and elaborate. :)
maybejustmaybe,
Thank you. I was going to elaborate but after reading sw&w's comments, I don't think I can really add anything to that. So ditto to what sw&w said. We're three steps closer, but there's a long way to go. It's a good start in the right direction, and I applaud him.
NASS
Much love to both of you. I'm gonna go take a nap. zzzzzzz
maybejustmaybe said...
I'm just curious. I wonder how many bloggers on this site would be willing to post the following statement, without exception, elaboration, or qualification:
As of the end of today's morning worship service, I am willing to forgive Pastor Steve and move forward with a clean slate.
2:40 PM, December 03, 2006
------
Forgiveness is most certainly appropriate and given - BUT - don't confuse that with being a substitute for solving a problem that allowed the offense in the first place.
Andrew
maybejustmaybe,
I can only agree wholehearedly with NASS and SW&W. It's three times cleaner than it was yesterday, but there are still issues that need to be addressed.
Harry Smith said there would be no more Communications Committee meetings. I'm not through with my questions - what do I do now?
Karen
Does anyone know if there is a churchwide meeting tonite after the service?
andrew,
You're are correct - the leadership at Bellevue seems to give off an attitude of "it's easier to apologize than to ask permission". Does that make sense?
There's also an attitude of "ready, fire, aim" and and that causes all these mistakes of the head, not the heart. How many of those mistakes will we allow as a people before Steve Gaines realizes that the core of the problem is him an his associate pastor, and the hub of the men in charge at BBC?
Karen
piglet,
I heard there was, but after this morning, I have no idea. The deacons are supposed to be electing new officers today.
I think the Communications Committee's credibility is now gone since they decided not to hold anymore meetings. But then again, it seems to me that Harry Smith doesn't seem to want to answer questions. It seems like the only answer they know is "I Don't Know". I'm not really sure if I can continue attending Bellevue if leadership cannot be up front with the membership. Seems like leadership has tossed their honor aside!!!!!
Mark,
I'm not sure I'm in position to comment at this point. My previous comment was based on having seen a portion of the service this morning but not the whole. I'm just now hearing about what went on after I stopped streaming the service in.
From what I understand, there are still a massive number of issues that went unaddressed. I'm hearing that Dr Gaines spoke to some of the personal slights in question, but not at all to the broader issues of church government, accountability, transparency, and oligarchy.
Further, from my understanding, he said again that things are fine between himself and the Whitmires and I do not believe that is a correct statement. In fact, it is the same statement that has been fired off before and been patently false.
I would hope that the show of contrition was genuine. I would also be extremely cautious. It seems a coincidence of extreme proportions that the message seemed aimed at those asking questions and the show of contrition came immediately afterwards--resulting almost in a subtle distancing oneself from those doing such wrong things. In other words, it was politically useful to x, y, and z are wrong; and then to seemingly do the antithesis of x, y, and z.
And that goes to your point: how can you tell if it's genuine or not? Well, for one thing, the proof will be in the pudding--this will not be the only step toward reconciliation. Issues of staff treatment, non-disclosure agreements, out right lies, subtle half-truths, intimidation, and conduct unbecoming have yet to be addressed. Further, issues of church government and oligarchy have yet to be addressed, and those are the things at the root of all of this. As an example: To apologize for hitting someone with your car is one thing. To apologize for the drunkenness that gave rise to the accident is another.
We've gotten a part of the apology, but we've not gotten at the root issues. When those are dealt with, and when other twistings of the truth are dealt with, then we'll know what's really happening. And as a corollary of that, if we don't see those things, then we'll also know what is happening--the status quo.
Best,
Josh
Was there this morning.My veiws and discernment?Harry k Smith is a self serving man with a hidden group of self serving men trying to cover up.He is a deceiver and I don"t trust him and the truth is not in him. Please Harry Step down and let Honest Men who are not afraid of the truth take your place.I could never teach my children your legalistic double standards.If the affidavit is true we need to dismiss the pastor NOW.I will serve no man but my GOD....I honestly beleive that the pastor jumped the fence that night to intimidate Mark Sharpe.I beleive pastor Called Mark HeZbolah.I beleive David Coombs insulted Richard Enerson.(I Heard him)My wife won"t sing in the choir anymore.I can"t stomach going in the sanctuary anymore because I don"t trust the integrity of the pastor.I see the fruit of chaos growing in the church.James 3:16"For where envy and self_seeking exist,CONFUSION and every evil exist.DID YOU BROTHERS AND SISTERS SEE ORDER COMING FROM HARRY AND HIS CAMP OR CONFUSION?He who has an ear let him hear.Also JAMES 3:17 "But the wisdom that is from above is first pure then peaceable ,gentle,WILLING TO YEILD.Full of mercy and good fruits without partiality and without hypcrisy.Question ?Was Harrys Wisdom PURE?WAS Harrys Wisdom without partality?Was Harry willing to yeild?(only when it was convenient).Was Harrys Wisdom full of hypoccrisy?Pretending to care but not answering questions?Pretending to care but reminding us this was our last forum?Was Harrys conduct done in meekness of Wisdom or legalistic cover up to hide the truth?Has Wisdom from ther camp produced good fruit yet?Are they willing to yeild their positions in peace?No Brothers and Sisters.WHY?BECAUSE THEY ARE SELF SERVING.Did Harry and his camp Bear GOOD FRUITS Or Did it seem the fruit Was rotten without Color? There wisdom is described in James 3:15"This wisdom does not not desend from above but is earthly,sensual and demonic.Folks we are being deceived and we are heading towards Elder rule and Church leaders who work behind the Scenes with them.If we can"t stop them I know God will!He Reigns!
The Communications Committee and Dr. Gaines have done nothing but chop the tops off dandelions with their current contributions. The roots are still intact and true progress toward truth and reconciliation are choked out.
To fallethntheditch:
AMEN!!!
The following passage may be rather applicable given today. Our minds always try to connect ideas and things we observe--sometimes we're right in assuming connections and sometimes we're wrong. I lay no claim to being right or wrong here, but this following passage is at least of some interest:
Jeremiah 6:14-19
14They have healed also the hurt of the daughter of my people slightly, saying, Peace, peace; when there is no peace.
15Were they ashamed when they had committed abomination? nay, they were not at all ashamed, neither could they blush: therefore they shall fall among them that fall: at the time that I visit them they shall be cast down, saith the LORD.
16Thus saith the LORD, Stand ye in the ways, and see, and ask for the old paths, where is the good way, and walk therein, and ye shall find rest for your souls. But they said, We will not walk therein.
17Also I set watchmen over you, saying, Hearken to the sound of the trumpet. But they said, We will not hearken.
18Therefore hear, ye nations, and know, O congregation, what is among them.
19Hear, O earth: behold, I will bring evil upon this people, even the fruit of their thoughts, because they have not hearkened unto my words, nor to my law, but rejected it.
Custos,
Thanks for your response. You truly are a clear thinker.
The following statement is interesting:
"In other words, it was politically useful to x, y, and z are wrong; and then to seemingly do the antithesis of x, y, and z."
I thought I repost as to have some go back and think about it more...
God Bless - Mark
Thanks Mark, but I can't totally take credit for that line of thought. That observation came from a good friend of mine.
Hot off the presses (almost):
New book.
Book Description on Amazon
With so much attention given to the presentation aspect of modern worship services, is it possible that many people attending church today forget to focus on the primary purpose of actually being in God’s presence? Pastor Steve Gaines and coauthor Dean Merrill (Fresh Wind, Fresh Fire) fear this is the case and call for a return to the core point of corporate worship in When God Comes to Church.
The goal here is to "send people out the door saying not ‘What a sermon!’ or ‘What great music!’ but rather ‘What a Savior!’ . . . the only ‘Wow!’ in a church should be God."
With that in mind, Gaines and Merrill write thoroughly about what attracts God to our worship gatherings—sincere prayer, repentance, unity, etc.—and warn against the worldly hindrances to pure worship such as legalism, liberalism, and fanaticism.
As to the new book release....pa-leease
Ps 43:3 said
"With that in mind, Gaines and Merrill write thoroughly about what attracts God to our worship gatherings—sincere prayer, repentance, unity, etc.—and warn against the worldly hindrances to pure worship such as legalism, liberalism, and fanaticism."
Sounds like an inconruous mix.
My impressions on the CC meeting this morning:
Mark Sharpe did a great job of presenting himself, and put some hard pressure on a few folks. The responses came as no big surprise. I can't help but conjure up images of a politician's press secretary. I can't remember the name of the dear lady who stood up near the end of the meeting and bravely called a spade a spade...(referring to sin in the camp)..whoever you are dear one...blessings to you. I sensed your heart and the anguish you are feeling. How convenient it is to make the meeting with the greatest turnout the last one. One thing is certainly coming in loud and clear...as someone stated in an earlier post...Dr. Gaines is part of the problem...but he certainly is not all of it..BBC is being run by an inner circle of wealthy and connected men..perhaps that's one of the reasons God sent Dr. Gaines here and has allowed all this to happen..to reveal what's been going on under the surface for some time. I regret that I did not stay for worship this morning to hear the apologies from the pastor. I need your prayers right now as I'm really struggling with that issue. It's been very difficult for me of late to come to worship..even the times I just make myself attend are very difficult. I fear that the only thing that will resolve all these issues is a fruit basket turnover in leadership...I pray that is not the case, but it would appear it might be. I hope Dr. Gaines was sincere in his apologies and is truly contrite in spirit. I started listening to the streaming audio from this morning but had to run out before it was finished..does anyone know if his apology is on that?
All of grace,
I could not find this morning's service on the streaming video yet, but tonight's servce is on right now. We cannot sit thru the services either, we have attended other churches but the Lord has not given us permission to move our membership yet. For that reason, I firmly believe He is going to move on our behalf. I just pray that He does it soon as my family and I are missing the fellowship we were used to. My husband walked out of the 9/24 meeting and has not been back, he was to come to the CC meeting with me this morning but got called into work. I firmly believe that the group of men surrounding Gaines are the major part of the problem. Steve Gaines may or may not have been sincere, but unless we can get up close and personal, we will never know and that is how it will remain unless the Lord opens the door, because these men are dug in deep, both financially and positionally.
Not everyone who was at the CC meeting this morning was there because they have questions or don't trust leadership. Just because this morning's attendance represented "the largest group ever" does not mean that the number of people concerned about the "issues" has grown.
maybejustmaybe,
I have no delusions that every last person there this morning was there because they have questions. But I also think you should not assume that the number of concerned people is not growing...certainly not that the almost doubled number from the last meeting was due to mere observers or those who feel as you do.
Matthew 6:14-15
For if you forgive men when they sin against you, your heavenly Father will also forgive you. But if you do not forgive men their sins, your Father will not forgive your sins.
Matthew 18:21-35
Then Peter came to Jesus and asked, "Lord, how many times shall I forgive my brother when he sins against me? Up to seven times?" Jesus answered, "I tell you, not seven times, but seventy-seven times."
Therefore, the kingdom of heaven is like a king who wanted to settle accounts with his servants. As he began the settlement, a man who owed him ten thousand talents was brought to him. Since he was not able to pay, the master ordered that he and his wife and his children and all that he had be sold to repay the debt.
The servant fell on his knees before him. "Be patient with me," he begged, "and I will pay back everything." The servant's master took pity on him, canceled the debt and let him go.
But when that servant went out, he found one of his fellow servants who owed him a hundred denarii. He grabbed him and began to choke him. "Pay back what you owe me!" he demanded.
His fellow servant fell to his knees and begged him, "Be patient with me, and I will pay you back."
But he refused. Instead, he went off and had the man thrown into prison until he could pay the debt. When the other servants saw what had happened, they were greatly distressed and went and told their master everything that had happened.
Then the master called the servant in. "You wicked servant," he said. "I canceled all that debt of yours because you begged me to. Shouldn't you have had mercy on your fellow servant just as I had on you?" In anger his master turned him over to the jailers to be tortured, until he should pay back all he owed.
This is how my heavenly Father will treat each of you unless you forgive your brother from your heart.
maybe,
I am aware of that, one of the seat fillers sat in front of me, mocking and smirking. His name was Steve Tucker. He went on to make a snide remark at the end about having a "BIBLE" (emphasis applied) class to teach. I feel sorry for the poor souls in his class. There were others there that were just interested and this was actually my first meeting. For every one of us that was there, you can count on a hundred more who could not or would not come out of fear, but are disturbed over the ongoing events that are happening without regard to the heart of the congregation.
"Broad is the way that leads to distruction." I will follow the narrow road, thank you very much. Even if we are seen as just a "few" disgruntled individuals, our search for truth is greater than all the lies they can muster.
I wonder how the CC plans on addressing our questions from now on since they have cut us off.
"This is how my heavenly Father will treat each of you unless you forgive your brother from your heart."
You're making a broad assumption mjm..that Dr. Gaines isn't forgiven. Who has said that they haven't forgiven him? Since I wasn't there to hear his apology, perhaps you could enlighten me...did he ask for our forgiveness?..but either way...he's forgiven for the things he apologized for..and btw...He's OUR Heavenly Father...that is if you consider any of us as brothers and sisters.
It was Jesus speaking, calling God "my Heavenly father." I did not pick up any kind of brush to paint anyone as not my brother or sister.
I posted this earlier this afternoon:
maybejustmaybe said...
I'm just curious. I wonder how many bloggers on this site would be willing to post the following statement, without exception, elaboration, or qualification:
As of the end of today's morning worship service, I am willing to forgive Pastor Steve and move forward with a clean slate.
2:40 PM, December 03, 2006
The responses since then, if read, are very telling.
david,
Thanks. That's good to hear. As I said..either way since he apologized I forgave..it's good to know that he asked for forgiveness though.
mjm,
I might add that your own attitude is telling as well.
allofgrace,
Enlighten me, please.
Steve Gaines took the lord`s supper knowing that he was unworthy to do so and so did his power men.
mjm,
I'm referring to the fact that you and others have come here day after day and say that no matter what anyone says, we'll never be satisfied.
Then you come and place your own requirements on the blog for all to "prove" their forgiveness according to your own requirements. On top of that you quote scripture and declare that YOUR Heavenly Father will deal with us this way...perhaps you really don't see any of us as brothers or sisters in Christ...that's your prerogative. But that is what I'm referring to.
So..for the record..I forgive him for the things he asked forgiveness for...is that enough for you?
Thank you, David. God bless you.
I'm very glad to hear that SG has started on the road to reconcilliation . I think maybe there is something to the line of thought that the Lord is allowing all this to happen to BBC in order to clean up His house. There are still financial issues that haven't been addressed properly and resolved. A point made earlier about the profits from the ticket sales of the Holy Land trips is a real issue. Would someone with the contacts find out if SG is actually making a personal profit from those trips? Or is he donating that money or putting it into another ministry as has been stated that Dr. Rogers did?
Copied from a few posts ago, for allofgrace,
maybejustmaybe said...
It was Jesus speaking, calling God "my Heavenly Father." I did not pick up any kind of brush to paint anyone as not my brother or sister.
Thank God for your forgiveness, allofgrace. Our church will be better for it.
6:59 PM, December 03, 2006
A man robs 50 banks in Memphis over the course of a year, then one day he takes a few cookies off of an old lady`s windown sill.
He knocks on the old ladu`s door and apologizes for taking her cookies.
The paper runs an article about this humble man who came to apologize to the little old cookie maker.
They throw him a party.
He still has not confessed that he is a bank robber and yet his has become a hero!
How easy we are deceived!
Steve Gaines apologizes about the way Jim Whitmire was treated while many he mistreated watch this pathetic charade.
When will the pastor come clean on everything he has done here and in Gardendale and who knows where else??????
Sunday Night Report
Harry Smith just presented the CC report to the church. Notes follow:
Dr Gaines recognizes HS and says HS has been working as chair nearly around the clock for weeks.
HS says that the CC has been one of the shortest lived committees in BBC history, lasting less than two months. Goes on to say the CC has met "a lot" and produced with the help of J Barnwell the communications piece that every BBC household received.
The CC divided up and met with staff, sunday school teachers, the choir, and the forerunners to listen to concerns and answer questions.
The CC also met with members of the Bellevue Family to answer questions and hear concerns. Those concerns have been passed onto S Gaines. The CC decided last week that they would finish their commission this week.
The CC recommends that D Coombs take member recommendations and suggestions regarding church structure and possible changes to the appropriate committees and necessary members to determine whether or not changes need to be made.
HS says that the CC had a unity that could only have been provided by God.
At this point, HS announces that he will speak on a topic not directly related to the CC. He says that over the years some people have expressed concerns and that a lot of things came up this year all at once--like someone struck a match he said. He recognized that S Gaines said this morning that he wasn't perfect and that he had made mistakes and apologized. H Smith said that he wanted to ask S Gaines' forgiveness for what he had been put through over the last year.
H Smith announced that S Gaines would start a new series of messages in January entitled "A New Beginning." HS said he prayed that the church will be unified with our brothers and sisters and that we'll deal with issues of forgiveness.
Well folks, there you have it: Harry Smith just apologized for all of us. Make of that (especially when contrasted against this morning) what you will.
Does anyone have info on the Deacon election?
Comment from one of the bloggers on this site today,
the leadership at Bellevue seems to give off an attitude of "it's easier to apologize than to ask permission". Does that make sense?
Comment from the same blogger the other day:
I've never gossiped or spread a rumor without coming back here and apoligizing for it when I found I our I was fed misinformation
It appears this blogger is doing the same thing the staff is being accused of and as long as any blogger barks about specks over logs, the tide will turn against you and your opinions will remain in the land of nothingness.
Welcome back to the masquerade party, what is great about a masquerade party is all the people that attend understands their opinion does not count, because it is anonymous. I could be NASS posting under a different log in. Or I could be the son of 25+.
You really don’t know for sure if I am using more than one log in name. It could be possible to have one log in name where my fellow bloggers loved me, and called me blessed, and said folks are praying for me, and stand strong don’t let Pastor destroy you.
Then it could be possible I have this log in name and I have been called, Pastor of darkness, satan, pagan, unsaved, full of puke etc. (by the way, didn’t the religious people of Jesus' day say the same thing about Him?)
This is the fun of masquerade parties, if a person desired they could carry an extra costume with them, go change in the bathroom, and no one would no the difference.
It is absolutely beyond me that any of you respond to any of my comments on this blog and get all worked up over these things. You don’t know for sure if I make you mad using this log in name, that I have another log in name and you think I am your best buddy.
It's over folks, you have no more meetings to go to. They have forced you to go one by one to each respective committee and ask your questions.
There is no way in the world the CC could have all the answers, that all the people, would all be satisfied with concerning all their questions. Sometimes questions are like cut arteries, you have to apply a tourniquet to stop the bleeding.
When I came to Christ, I didn’t ask God to explain the trinity to me before I accepted Him as my savior.
mjm,
My apology for misconstruing the last part of your post..it appeared to be your comment on the end of it..I ask for your forgiveness.
allofgrace,
Forgiven, 100%.
Love in Christ,
mjm
The greatest masquerade party is not here with those who use anonomous names but with those in Bellevue leadership who give their real names while they masquerade as spiritual leaders and humble men of God.
bereconciled,
I think I would have to agree with that statement.
Is Harry Smith so deluted that he believes Bellevue is the root of Steve Gaines sin?
We caused him to be a liar?
We caused him to be deceitful?
We caused him to intimidate people?
ect, ect, ect, ect, ect,
This is a sick way of thinking.
Harry Smith is one of the BIG problems at Bellevue and now I see why the LORD said it is harder for a rich man to enter heaven.
How do you know beyereconciled, and myself are not the same person?
To those of you who are suggesting that we all should repent, please realize that there are some people who are prayerfully going forward with their search for the truth, not motivated by power, greed, money or position, but walking in the light that the Lord has given them. The "check" in their spirit, the evidence of wrongdoing that has been shoveled aside by those on a quest for preeminience, the false accusations and the attitudes of those in power towards the "underlings" - all these things are still there, why is an apology or forgiveness required for seeking the truth as laid out in scripture, when the Lord has not prompted an apology for doing His will?? The "pastor" and "david", "ace" and "hisservant" and others are readily available to provide diatribes and assaults on the character of the membership who is seeking the truth. Why is that? Are they only seeing one "side" of the issue? Are they part of the elite state? Are they at the beck and call of the leadership, or are they the leadership attempting to quiet the peasants?
Pastor, your constant attempts to distract people on this blog by pointing out the obvious are becoming tiresome. Let's just say who cares and move on. You are forgiven for spreading the seeds of doubt on this board. You need not ask for forgiveenss.
Is Bellevue using out money to back Donna Gaines new project while the profit for the sale of her project goes into the Gaines fund?
Mom4
Have you noticed that people are still defending what Steve Gaines apologized for?????
More innuendo and planting of doubt. More gossip. Raise your hand if you would recognize "truth" if it bit you on the ... big toe.
How do you all know beyond a shadow of a doubt I am not mom4?
Some people on this blog are asking for their staff to reveal everything and anything at their beck and call, just so that one person can FEEL GOOD.
Almost appears to be a double standard, they want to FEEL GOOD about their laborers in Christ, having no desire if they have helped those laborers in Christ, FEEL GOOD.
mom4,
The only things I ever feel the need to repent for are the things I'm actually guilty of. Looking for and needing to know the truth are not things I feel convicted to repent of. Only if I've sinned against the Lord or another person.
Josh,
Your stated earlier:
"Further, from my understanding, he said again that things are fine between himself and the Whitmires and I do not believe that is a correct statement. In fact, it is the same statement that has been fired off before and been patently false."
Has anyone tried to verify possible reconciliation?
Cordially - Mark
telos said...
Josh,
Your stated earlier:
"Further, from my understanding, he said again that things are fine between himself and the Whitmires and I do not believe that is a correct statement. In fact, it is the same statement that has been fired off before and been patently false."
Has anyone tried to verify possible reconciliation?
Cordially - Mark
8:01 PM, December 03, 2006
I did not hear Bro. Steve make this specific statement in the 11 a.m. service. Did he make it in the 9:30 one?
Mark,
My family stays in pretty decent contact with them, and I believe had it happened I'd know. The last impression I had, as of a couple of days ago, is that it is not at all reconciled. But the last thing I want to do is put words in their mouths.
Cheers,
Josh
PASTOR OH, PASTOR
You said that the Holy Spirit leads you to say the things you said to Karen yesterday and the shoe just happen to fit.
I ask you again
Who lead you to apologize to Karen last night?
beyereconciled posted: Harry Smith is one of the BIG problems at Bellevue and now I see why the LORD said it is harder for a rich man to enter heaven.
REPLY: WOW! you are so filled with hate and way out of line. You do not know Harry Smith and obviously have no clue what you are talking about. he is one of the most caring and most giving individuals I have ever known of. He is a GREAT man of God and I am so glad he is a leader at Bellevue
If Harry Smith is an honest man then God didn`t make little green apples and it don`t snow in Minneaspolis in the winter time.
Hey Josh - could you make a call home?
Your Brother In Christ - Mark
WOW, Blessme you are full of wisdom!
Harry Smith sat in the CC meeting today with eyes glazed over and lied like the liar he is.
He needs to get on one of his saddles and ride, ride, ride.
Indianapolis.
pastor said...
"How do you all know beyond a shadow of a doubt I am not mom4?"
By my fruits I am known, just as you are. A tree does not produce apples and oranges - "pastor" and "mom4" are on opposite ends of the spectrum.
All of grace, I agree.
pastor are you fighting with your self? Odd behavior.
pastor said...
How do you know beyereconciled, and myself are not the same person?
7:50 PM, December 03, 2006
BlessMeWithTheTruth said...
PASTOR OH, PASTOR
You said that the Holy Spirit leads you to say the things you said to Karen yesterday and the shoe just happen to fit.
I ask you again
Who lead you to apologize to Karen last night?
FOR SOME REASON I STARTING TO FEEL SORY FOR SG. AFTER THESE CC MEETINGS, IT SEEMS TO ME THAT ALL THE POWER BROKERS,.. SMITH , TUCKER AND THE LOT, HELPED RUN BBC WHEN ARE BELOVED PASTOR RODGERS WAS ILL AND THEY CAN NOT RELEASE THE POWER AND INFLUENCE THEY GAINED. DO NOT GET ME WRONG, SG IS RESPONSIBLE FOR HIS ACTIONS, BUT HE IS NOT ALL THE PROBLEM
jyoung,
Brother/sister...please turn off the capslock..it makes it look like you're yelling...btw..I agree about the power brokers.
Sorry, first time to blog other than email
j
j,
not a problem..just passing along a tip..all caps online means you're raising your voice...welcome to the blogsphere.
After hearing the apology from Dr Gaines this morning I pose these questions.
Did Dr. Gainse ask for forgiveness for forcing Jim Whitmire to resign or did he ask forgiveness for the way the announcement to the church was made?
Did he say about the Union City matter that IF I have offended any of you I ask your forgiveness?
I don't mean to be picky but those questions addded to this evenings service make me wonder if he is sincere or is he sorry that he got caught?
By the way I saw Harry Smith and Brian Miller hugging and congratulating each other in the hallway after church. They seemed extremely happy.
Just my opinion.
Pastor,
I am sorry to have to disagree with you about churches over 500 people. I am now a member of a church with about 1400 in attendance every Sunday morning. I am in a SS class with a teacher who is almost twice my age. Granted I am one of the youngest in the class but she readily admits she is old enough to be the mother of most of us. Also my husband is taught by a man who is close to being old enough to be his dad. At our church all ages are treated with respect. This was one of the first things I noticed about Bellevue after Steve arrived. I even wrote him a letter about how the children and seniors were not allowed to worship in the way they were familiar with. On Wednesday nights, our pastor walks among all in attendance as we eat a Fellowship supper and he speaks with everyone in there from the smallest of children to the oldest of seniors. Everyone respects and loves him and it is obvious he loves all of us. This is what we wanted to see from Pastor Steve - some love and respect. Unfortunately that is just not what is happening.
Sincerely,
Diana Hart
dianahart,
Would you mind telling me what church you're attending?..you can email me and tell me if you like. Blessings.
hisservant-1,
Most of us on this blog aren't hate filled - we are frustrated. No one can get a simple answer to a host of simple questions. I feel very sorry for Steve's family. However I also feel it is his fault for causing all this uproar. We didn't tell him to treat Rob Mullins, Jim Whitmire, David Smith and other ministers like dirt. I have seen this happen in other churches. Obviously it isn't anything new. However that doesn't make it RIGHT. We are to be humble before our Lord and Savior and do what He wants not what any man wants. I will never bow down to any man. I will only bow to Jesus.
Sincerely,
Diana Hart
For weeks some of you have vigorously defended the pastor. You denied that his Union City remarks were demeaning to the Members of Bellevue Baptist Church, and critized those of us who were offended by his critism of us.Now Steve Gaines has apologized for his Union City remarks.In light of his apology I belive that some of you should admit that you were wrong and apologize to us. This is a good lesson. Next time don't blindly trust your leaders, get the facts before you jump in and make clowns of yourself.
Ace, hisservent,Mike Bratton and others, maybe you should think about these other unresolved issues carefully ,you may have to eat your words again,and end up in a three ring circus.
David,
Your post from 1:21 AM is the most worthwhile thing I have heard you say. I think pairing up the seniors with younger people is wonderful. I wish all churches would at least try something like that. As you have stated, seniors are very important to minister to the younger ones. My husband and I are friends with 3 older couples at our church - I wouldn't classify any of them as seniors yet but they are older than us and we are crazy about them! I believe we should respect our elders and listen to what they have to say. After all they have years worth of experience that we just don't have. One of these couples has also "adopted" a younger couple who doesn't have family in the area. What a ministry!Thank you for your post.
Sincerely,
Diana Hart
Diana:
#1: if you are a member of another church and happy, why are you on this blog bashing Brother Steve
#2: again, you post rumors like many others with no facts. you seem to have no idea what you are talking about. you are way off when it comes to Rob and David Smith.
#3: very few on here seem to have their heart in the right place. you might to read more before claiming few are filled with hate and making excuses etc. frustrated, hurt, whatever, you are NOT the only ones and that is NO excuse.
#4: you and others can continue down this path of destruction all you want. i do pray that you will stop, but you are in control of you own actions. I can say that MOST at Bellevue are moving on from this stuff. we need to get back to worship and leading people to Christ.
Harry Smith in a dated article concerning Schilling Farms, said that a church was part of the long term plans for SF. Does anyone know if a church was ever built, and if so ,is it affilated with Bellevue BC
hisservant1,
Lay off. diana hart has been an encourager on this blog, and I haven't seen anything she's posted that's been said in a mean-spirited or hateful way.
confused posted: For weeks some of you have vigorously defended the pastor. You denied that his Union City remarks were demeaning to the Members of Bellevue Baptist Church, and critized those of us who were offended by his critism of us.Now Steve Gaines has apologized for his Union City remarks.In light of his apology I belive that some of you should admit that you were wrong and apologize to us. This is a good lesson. Next time don't blindly trust your leaders, get the facts before you jump in and make clowns of yourself.
Ace, hisservent,Mike Bratton and others, maybe you should think about these other unresolved issues carefully ,you may have to eat your words again,and end up in a three ring circus.
REPLY: i have never followed anyone blindly and have NEVER said that Brother Steve has not made mistakes. I have KNOWN the facts and exactly what happened from the start. he has made mistakes like ALL of us do all the time.
This morning was the first meeting of the cc that our family has been able to attend. We were there before 8 as it was suppose to start at 8. By 8:30 the committee finally arrived. No apologies.They just walked in with an air of arrogants.. They did not really care about the questions or concerns. They were only there for a show of supporting the Pastor...John Cauldwell did not even stay. He just walked from the front door to the back. He could have answered several questions.
This has been such a clown act on the part of the leadership and it is not funny...Bellevue Baptist Church is hurting. We left after the meeting as I was litterly sick to my stomach. Then to hear Harry Smith appology for the way the church has treated Dr. Gaines for the past year...What about the treatment of the sheep of Bellevue...Swallow and Follow or leave....I am still in tears....
hisservent how about some salt,pepper and a little ketchup for those words you need to eat.With all the hate filled words you have used it looks more like a buffet than a plate.
lwood: did you not read the sign that said 8:30?
lwood,
Sadly, I have to agree with you.
Confused,
You denied that his Union City remarks were demeaning to the Members of Bellevue Baptist Church,
And to this day, even after Gaines' apology I was not offended with what he said...so you can't speak for all of us.
and critized those of us who were offended by his critism of us.
Since you posted my name in your post, I will have you know that I never criticized anyone for this issue.
In light of his apology I belive that some of you should admit that you were wrong and apologize to us.
We were wrong about what? That Gaines' was wrong. That is a personal decision. If you were offended then it is your choice as to forgive Dr. Gaines or not. For myself, personally, Steve does not need to ask for my forgiveness as he has not offended me.
And for those who don't want to forgive Gaines...think about this. God sent his only son to die on the Cross for our sins and to be forgiven. Jesus lost His life over this. Gaines offended *some* people regarding his comments...can we not show the same love that God has shown us to Steve?
Diana,
I need to know where you go to church!!! We need that kind of leadership and we are not getting it at BBC, even my teens have left i2 - said it was more like a rock concert than church - we need to be fed, not entertained! If you have found a good church home, we are ready to leave as well, but we will not move our membership until this is resolved with SG. If there is a vote, we want to be able to vote! After all that we have been put thru, we deserve that little bit of justice! However, with the election of Brian Miller, from what I have already heard, we are due for more of the same. I cannot help believe that until the Lord reveals the sin in the camp of the leadership, nothing will change. My greatest concern is that even if the Lord does reveal it, the leadership will deny it and things will go on as usual and the flagship of the SBC will be doomed!
ylwood,
Then to hear Harry Smith appology for the way the church has treated Dr. Gaines for the past year...What about the treatment of the sheep of Bellevue...
Since you felt sick and didn't go to the service this morning, you missed Gaines' apology. I suggest you read all the posts in this thread...
Also, on the time issue, read your bulletin. It says it started at 8:30...
confused: again, we are moving on. trust me. i have never posted anything on this blog that has spread rumors, lies, hate, slander, libel etc etc. not once. you might not like what I have to say, but please just don't just make up your own version. i have not used people names and tried to ruin their reputation and their lives.
i am done responding to you
allofgrace said...
lwood,
Sadly, I have to agree with you.
9:20 PM, December 03, 2006
I also agree.
Did you notice that his eyes seemed to glaze over whenever a question was asked,it was like he was using self-hypnosis to escape from reality.
Mom4:
#1: so now you have already moved on to Brain Miller? do you know him??
#2: sounds good. you need to go where you are fed.
Lwood,
We are as well and as such attended Ellendale this morning. I told my wife that we could visit some other churches. I was hopeful after reading over the last few days that today would be a day that might change my mind about BBC. And before you chastise me for making up my mind without being there I've seen the truth come out on this blog and when people relate what happened I can easily feel the truth of their words. As such their is still much Pride and Deceit in His house. I also couldn't attend a service without trying breaking down the delivery of the message looking for fault which is why I felt a need to visit other places. I had hoped that what was reported from today would help put all that behind me. SG's apology is a start but like others have said I probably won't be able to overlook the fact that I know in my heart that I can no longer be lead by SG. Oh I could attend as thousands others will do and listen to him preach but in my heart his delivery of the Word will always be tainted. I forgive him for everything he's done. Forgiveness isn't forgetfulness. Some things can't be undone by mere words. I think SG will remain at BBC and maybe years from now he will mature into the Godly integrity filled man he replaced. Until then my family will find another church home.
here is a tip. we are moving on!
Is Brian Miller the new Chairman of the Deacons?
Isn't Brian Miller the President Of ECS?
Oh, the ECS connection again.
Someone post who the other Vice Chairmen officers are.
Someone post how many are ECS connections again.
HisServant-1 said...
i am done responding to you
Hisservent is this because you cannot admit you were wrong? Even your hero(sg) admited that he was wrong.And just you blindly defended him now he left you sitting there.
Pride is a hard thing to overcome isn't it.
ju: you seen the "truth" come out on this blog???
HisServant-1 said...
here is a tip. we are moving on!
9:32 PM, December 03, 2006
HisServant,
You may think we are moving, just wait and see. Who are you to say we are moving on. Do you think you are Harry Smit???
When one forgives - is it wise to forget?
When one forgives - does one begin to trust all at once?
I think both parties need to be on the same page before this healing begins.
Seems like there is still some red tape between the pulpit and some of the congregation.
I do agree with a lot of what Pastor Gaines said today... two things in particular:
A.One does not have to understand what is being said to understand that venom is present.
B.It is up to the Holy Spirit to direct each of us.
In its totality, there are so many players that need to be in sync, this healing will take time.
This has been said before and I will say this as well...I am left wondering why all parties cant be in one room to find resolution in light of all the pain.
May God's peace transcend all the bitterness that is hidden and all that is apparent.
Peace - Mark
Hisservant,
Aside from your obvious attempt to bait me the answer to your question is a simple yes. Seek the truth and you will find it. Can you stand and deny that today the pastor has applogized today for several things that have been brought to light on this forum?
ace, hisservant1, et al,
you guys tickle the heck out of me. You hate everything about this blog...the people on it and everything that's said...but you can't resist coming here...are you guys gluttons for punishment or what?
Stillwaiting,
Just an FYI...the meeting last week started at 8 so that's why it would be correctly assumed that the one today would start at 8.
No, not really. It started at 8:30 every week except for last week. On December 24th there is one service at 10am...does that mean that every week the service is now going to be at 10? Of course not...
ace,
You should have been on the CC..you've got the knack...or perhaps you were?
Allofgrace,
ace, hisservant1, et al, you guys tickle the heck out of me. You hate everything about this blog...
Who says I hate everything about this blog? I never said that. Please don't put words in my mouth.
the people on it and everything that's said...
Where I have I said I hate the people and everything that's said? Oh wait, I never said that...you're putting words in my mouth again. Please stop.
but you can't resist coming here...are you guys gluttons for punishment or what?
So if I disagree with what you're talking about I shouldn't come here? You disagree with a lot that Gaines does right? If he upsets you so much then why do you keep talking about him?
You're taking a stand for what you believe in, as I am doing the same. Is there a problem with that?
JU: many knew of those things that have never read this blog. I have NOT seen one new "fact" on this blog that I was not already aware of.
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