Sunday, December 17, 2006

It's Time for More Truth!

Here's some interesting information straight from Bellevue's website. I wonder if they know this is still there or if Steve Gaines has ever read it. As the person who brought this to my attention asked, "Will Bellevue follow her own advice?"

Following the invitation in both Sunday morning services on December 17th, Steve Gaines announced that Bryan Miller was going to read a prepared statement. This is that statement and a transcript of Steve Gaines' comments afterwards.

I would like to ask again that even though the minister's name has been revealed by Steve Gaines himself, no mention of the other Williams family's names be made in this forum.

1. How could Steve Gaines possibly think it's okay to cover this up for six months?

2. Whether anyone else knew about the situation at the time, why would Paul Williams "counsel" potential nursery workers who answered affirmatively to abuse in their own backgrounds? I've received correspondence from people in these situations who said he asked a lot of explicit and personal questions about the details of their abuse. He's asked other people in counseling for unrelated issues for details about their sex lives. For lack of a better word, that's just creepy!

3. What about the philandering board of directors member? Has he really been asked to step down? Has he been disciplined in any way? Will there be any mention of this situation in a worship service, too?

4. What about the "forcible rape" which occurred at the church that was reported to the Memphis police on 12/12/06? What really happened? Have extra security measures been implemented to protect everyone?

5. Why have members of a family, one of whom was reportedly caught stalking a young woman in the church while carrying a bag containing weapons, including a gun, and another "sneaking a peek" near the women's dressing rooms during a SCT performance, still allowed on church property? Were the authorities notified when these events occurred?

6. Why has the media been so quiet?

309 comments:

1 – 200 of 309   Newer›   Newest»
Anonymous said...

Ace said...

I love my church,

Several posters asked you to make a biblical case for allowing a child molester to be in ministry at Bellevue. I've noticed you conveniently ignored those posts.

Why don't you read all my posts? I have already address my thoughts concerning this issue and I don't have to post a Biblical case for this. I believe that consequences are due if the allegations are true. Go use the search feature on your internet browser and you will see my posts that back up that statement.

10:13 PM, December 17, 2006
allofgrace said...

Well there should also be some consequences for those who've know about this and waited 6 mos to do something about it.

10:17 PM, December 17, 2006
New BBC Open Forum said...

YOUR ATTENTION, PLEASE!!!

PLEASE TIE A KNOT IN THIS ONE AND MOVE TO THE NEXT THREAD TO CONTINUE.

Thank you,

NBBCOF

10:19 PM, December 17, 2006
JU said...

Ace,

If if if. When will you stop hedging your bets? Don't you think that when someone admits to a "moral indiscretion" and the pastor brings it before the congregation it would be well past time to use if in conjunction with that situation? It is as you so often ask a FACT. Face the facts and elaborate on what those consequences should be.

10:20 PM, December 17, 2006

Anonymous said...

Tim,

I believe that he meant Mike Spradlin, of course Mark Sharpe would have been far better than Steve Gaines.

Mark better than Steve? Now *that* is funny.

Mark Sharpe has more integrity in his little finger-nail than Steve Gaines has in his entire group of self-serving ego maniacs.

I beg to differ....Mark is a troublemaker. And I'm NOT just talking about Bellevue issues but other stuff too which I won't publicly post here.

Steve Gaines is not annointed of God.

How do you know this?

If you believe that he is, then could you please tell me when it was that he was annointed?

I don't know, I'm not God.

Where you there when it happened?

Nope.

Oh..I forgot...you weren't there...you didn't see it happen...so you really don't have a clue do you.

And you have a clue? Please, I'd love to hear your case on why he isn't annointed by God.

Anonymous said...

Ju,

It is as you so often ask a FACT. Face the facts and elaborate on what those consequences should be.

It depends on what the investigation reveals. The most serious consequence in the form of Bellevue leadership would be to remove him from staff. But if you actually read my other posts you would have already known that...

allofgrace said...

King Saul was annointed...didn't make him a righteous king did it?

Anonymous said...

I believe SG was appointed not anointed. Just my opinion.

Anonymous said...

Phil.4:13

Loved your last post!!!!!!

Finance guy -

I really feel for you and do not judge you at all. We are all in a difficult place. It WOULD be really cool, though, if the choir just stopped showing up. Would like to see him put a spin on THAT.

Oh, ACE

I am MORTIFIED that I have lost credibility with you. Bet you're glad I'M not the pastor, huh?

Anonymous said...

trucker said...
ace the real reason you won't answer my question is because you can't. There is no biblical basis to support your position and you know it. You are also a coward because you are not man enough to admit that you are wrong.You sir are a hypocrite for telling Ilove my church that he was gossiping then turn around and ask for more info about the so called gossip.
How does it feel to be SG's water carrier? Keep up the good work maybe SG will let you share an office with a molester.
BTW you wern't misquoted the other night.

10:23 PM, December 17, 2006

Tim said...

Ace,

If you are so certain that he is, then I believe that burden of proof is upon you.

Oh..I forgot...you can't ever prove anything that you say...or don't say...or decide that you don't know enough to have an opinion...or have an opinion if...and...or but...

Anonymous said...

NBBCOF,

I'm wondering where/who you got your transcript from?

Piglet,

I am MORTIFIED that I have lost credibility with you. Bet you're glad I'M not the pastor, huh?

Please don't be scared, it'll be alright. And, yes, as a matter of fact, I am glad you aren't my pastor.

Anonymous said...

Trucker,

ace the real reason you won't answer my question is because you can't.

I can assure you that I didn't even read your question. I just a question mark in your post and assumed it was directed towards me.

BTW you wern't misquoted the other night.

Yes I was. You are a liar. Would you like for me to find the exact post for you?

allofgrace said...

Time to face reality..we have a politician not a pastor..and he's surrounded by political cronies..everything is calculated..(including this morning's sermon, ace), to survive politically.

Anonymous said...

Ace says "liar,liar,pants on fire!"

Tim said...

trucker,

Good Point! I didn't realize that he was the water boy. I thought he was the bat boy. It seems more to me that he is hanging upside down in the dark.

cjesusnme said...

I have an idea:

Let's all pretend that Ace doesn't exist just like the leadership of BBC think PW's situation didn't exist for 6 months, and Bruce Brooks sin didn't exist, and other problems don't exist. If we have the mentality they have, maybe it will go away....isn't that what they were thinking? NOT! Face it folks, SG wouldn't have addressed this today if it wasn't for David Brown breathing down their necks and ACE....you know it's true! Answer the question from earlier.....Do you think Paul Williams should remain on staff? Do you like the fact that your tithes are continuing to pay a known rapist? And we want the truth from you!

Anonymous said...

Is there a rock around here that I can throw?

Anonymous said...

Piglet you and I are in good company we have no credibility with ace.Look who he holds in high esteem.Would you want to be ranked with Gaines,MD,HS,and the rest of BBC junta.
I'lltake Tim.Mark Sharp,Custos and all the "troublemakers" on the blog.

Anonymous said...

Houston, we have a problem. Ace, pull up...Ace, pull up now! Just keep the parachute handy....

Anonymous said...

CJesusInMe,

SG wouldn't have addressed this today if it wasn't for David Brown breathing down their necks and ACE....you know it's true!

How do you know what I know is true? Oh wait, you don't...so stop thinking you do.

Answer the question from earlier.....Do you think Paul Williams should remain on staff?

I already answered this question and am tired of repeating myself so go read my previous posts. Thank you.

Anonymous said...

Trucker,

For starters... http://www.blogger.com/comment.g?blogID=36564514&postID=116601897304044886

Look @ your 1:24 PM, December 14, 2006 post. I never said that. You are a liar. Point proven. Have a great night.

Anonymous said...

Correction...I mean the 11:24 post.

Anonymous said...

cjesusnme

I'll ignore Ace after I'm done venting my frustration. Right now he's serving a purpose.

(We should do lunch.) :)

Anonymous said...

Piglet said,
“Ace says ‘liar, liar, pants on fire!”

Ace said,
“Trucker, ‘you are a liar.”

I say,
“I know you are, but what am I?”

I also say,
“I’m rubber and you’re glue, whatever you says bounces off of me and sticks to you.”

Pttttthhhhhhht.

Anonymous said...

Piglet,

(We should do lunch.)

Am I invited?

Anonymous said...

Does anyone know what has happened the Chairman of the board in reguards to his adulterous affair? Was that mentioned from the pulpit today?

allofgrace said...

trucker,
No, it wasn't. How convenient.

Anonymous said...

Facts_Only_Please,

Does it humor you that I called someone a liar? Because with a post or two up from myself it just proves my point....you guys should be careful who you listen to. It's incredible how low some of you folks will go.

Anonymous said...

Ace,

Sure you're invited. I'll order you crow and pay for it myself.

Tim said...

Ace,

You are the biggest source of comic relief on the blog. I'm not sure that you have intended on being such a clown, but I do find your post comical.

ezekiel said...

Ace,

I am still waiting on the scriptural basis for submit to your God ordained authority.

Paul Williams is/was a minister. Right? God ordained authority? On staff at Bellevue, paid with church money. Rapist, pedophile, sodomizer. SS class worker authority?

Oh, I forgot, never question God ordained authority. Hmmmm

cjesusnme said...

Piglet,

I would love to do lunch, but Ace is not invited! He may slip some of that kool-aid into our drinks! Sorry Ace :(

Trucker:

The adulterous affair of Bruce Brook, no that was not mentioned today....but if you wait another 5 1/2 months....it probably will be!

Anonymous said...

Tim,

You are the biggest source of comic relief on the blog. I'm not sure that you have intended on being such a clown, but I do find your post comical.

I'm glad I serve some purpose to you on this blog and am not completely worthless. Is there a particular post you find extra comical?

Anonymous said...

CJesusInMe,

I would love to do lunch, but Ace is not invited! He may slip some of that kool-aid into our drinks! Sorry Ace :(

First Piglet says I am invited and you say I'm not...what's the deal with that? And I don't like Kool-Aid...I prefer Dr. Pepper. Do you mind if I slip a little of that in your drinks?

Tim said...

Ace,

No most every thing that you post is humorous. Of course, a great portion of it is just sad. But I honestly believe that you are just one of those Bellevue troublemakers trying to stir things up.

Anonymous said...

Facts only said..Pttttthhhhhhht.

How about"I know what you are but what am I?"

Thanks for the comic relief,with all of these issues that affect my family.I really enjoyed the laugh.

Anonymous said...

Ezekial,

I am still waiting on the scriptural basis for submit to your God ordained authority.

What exactly is being questioned here? I mean, what are you looking for? Scripture that shows us that we should submit to authority in general or in regards to pastors? Just want to make sure I know what you're asking for before I post the wrong thing.

Anonymous said...

Skip off to bed, Ace. It's getting late.

I don't need you anymore.

Anonymous said...

Tim,

No most every thing that you post is humorous.

I see.

But I honestly believe that you are just one of those Bellevue troublemakers trying to stir things up.

Believe as you like, I'm not stopping you.

P.S. - was this post funny? ;-)

Anonymous said...

Tim said...
trucker,

Good Point! I didn't realize that he was the water boy. I thought he was the bat boy. It seems more to me that he is hanging upside down in the dark.

10:35 PM, December 17, 2006

Tim just think if he was an adult he could be "batman"

Anonymous said...

who is it that gives 'christian' rapists and sodomizers counseling?

advice 1- QUIT RAPING
advice 2- QUIT SODOMIZING
advice 3- YOU ARE A CHILD OF SATAN
advice 4- MINISTRY IS A NO NO

Anonymous said...

Trucker,

Sorry we are making fun. I was so mad I was about to break something...that's why I was so glad to find Ace online.....

Anonymous said...

Piglet,

Skip off to bed, Ace. It's getting late.

I'm not planning to go to bed anytime soon. Thanks for the suggestion, though, I appreciate it.

I don't need you anymore.

Anymore? So was there a point in your life when you did need me?

Kidding of course...

Anonymous said...

Is anyone familiar with the "secret list" that Bellvue has maintained for the past several years? It was kept under lock and key by its caretaker Paul Williams. Anyone of any "questionable character" who became a member of Bellevue was placed on this list. Anytime an individual volunteered to serve in any capacity within the church, their name was flagged, and the caretaker (PW) unlocked his list to see what, if anything the individual had been blacklisted for. If the ministry area fell within the confines of what they had been accused of(not necessarily guilty of), then that person was not allowed to serve in that area. Any takers?

Anonymous said...

napoleon
please say you're joking

New BBC Open Forum said...

ace wrote:

"I'm wondering where/who you got your transcript from?"

I sat right here and listened to the tape from this morning's service and transcribed every word of it myself.

You can listen to it here and read along to make sure I didn't make any errors. Please let me know if I did.

NBBCOF

Anonymous said...

paid leave for 'christian' child rapists...

ace...come on...tell us how this is good policy

Anonymous said...

Piglet said...
Ace,

Sure you're invited. I'll order you crow and pay for it myself.

10:48 PM, December 17, 2006
Let me pay for half,

New BBC Open Forum said...

napoleon wrote:

"Is anyone familiar with the "secret list" that Bellvue has maintained for the past several years? It was kept under lock and key by its caretaker Paul Williams. Anyone of any "questionable character" who became a member of Bellevue was placed on this list. Anytime an individual volunteered to serve in any capacity within the church, their name was flagged, and the caretaker (PW) unlocked his list to see what, if anything the individual had been blacklisted for. If the ministry area fell within the confines of what they had been accused of(not necessarily guilty of), then that person was not allowed to serve in that area. Any takers?"

Two months ago I wouldn't have believed you, but after reading the first comment on this page, I'm not so sure you're not on to something.

NASS

Anonymous said...

bloggers leave
troublemakers leave
if you question authority, leave
if you are a deacon with concerns, leave

if you rape your own children, stay, but take a paid break on us

what planet do they live on?!

ezekiel said...

Ace,

Pastors/ministers/priests/elders.

The rest of it was Jesus pertaining to submission to governmental authority/Rome.

Lets try to keep it in contxt of the church, among the flock shall we say.

New BBC Open Forum said...

Just a word of caution from your friendly moderator: If you continue all this banter with ace, et al., you may find yourselves scrolling through 1000 comments in this thread by tomorrow afternoon.

NBBCOF

Anonymous said...

Ace:

Going back to the the Mike Spradlin - Mark Sharpe post. You are RIGHT ON THE MONEY!

Anonymous said...

I though he meant Mark Sharpe also!

Anonymous said...

anyone, please answer...
where do 'christian' rapists go for counseling? (I always thought it was jail)

Anonymous said...

Ezekial,said..

I am still waiting on the scriptural basis for submit to your God ordained authority


Ezekial,you won't get an answer. Ace doesn't know enough scripture to give an informed answer.Remember MD wants SG's followers to read the screen not the bible.
Doesn't suprise me after he admitted he didn't know who Anne Frank was,so we know he is not well read.

Anonymous said...

Ezekial,

I will try to get back to you with Scripture tomorrow. If you don't hear back from me, send me a message to remind me. There's a book I have that will help me address that point and I won't be able to get it until tomorrow.

Meanwhile, until then, http://www.streamingfaith.com/community/editorials/editorial.aspx?EditorialId=543&bhcp=1 is an interesting read...

Anonymous said...

Mike,

Going back to the the Mike Spradlin - Mark Sharpe post. You are RIGHT ON THE MONEY!

What exactly was I "right on the money" with? I can't tell what exactly you talking about and if sarcasm is maybe involved...if you could clarify, that'd be much appreciated!

Anonymous said...

Memphis,

I though he meant Mark Sharpe also!

Thanks, it's nice to know I'm not the only one who misunderstood!

Anonymous said...

Trucker,

Doesn't suprise me after he admitted he didn't know who Anne Frank was,so we know he is not well read.

Once again, you're putting words in my mouth. Congratulations. I said I never saw the movie, which is what Tim asked earlier. He didn't ask me anything else. Grow up.

Anonymous said...

Ace:

You CORRECTLY separated the wheat from the chaff so to speak. You know who likes to make trouble. No sarcasm at all. You simply made a very accurate statement. Refreshing to read on this blog.

ezekiel said...

Ace,

The only book you need is the Bible. I would hope you have one handy. Put no trust in man... Satan uses him to deceive. Started back in Genesis.

Anonymous said...

1000 certified letters to the pastor stating...RESIGN

no emails, no phone calls, no secretaries

1000 certified letters to the deacons or whatever committee...LET US HOLD A VOTE OF CONFIDENCE FOR THE PASTOR!!

let's see how many standing ovations there'll be

stillwaitingandwatching said...

Finance Guy,

You've got mail.

Anonymous said...

Isn't it just like Satan? The one whose prayers would be hindered in charge of the prayer ministry?

I KNEW something was wrong. I just had no idea it could be this bad

Anonymous said...

mark sharpe...concerned deacon, trouble maker...LEAVE

PW...honorable staff member, holder of divinity degree, keeper of the gate, and raper of his own child...STAY

twilight zone material!

Anonymous said...

Ezekiel,

Okay...quoting from that article I posted a link to earlier:

"The local church is a community. Wherever there is a community there is a government. Wherever there is a government there are people. Wherever there is a community that has a government that is run by people.."

So, for starters...go read Romans chapter 13.

Anonymous said...

and whereever the govt is corrupt, there needs to be new govt

Anonymous said...

My family and I were affected by PW's list in 1998. We left Bellevue over it. It turns out that after we had volunteered to work in a certain area of ministry, I was not allowed to, due to an accusation against me that they kept hidden for ten years. It was in the form of a letter to Dr. Rogers. The letter was placed in a file with my name on it. Anytime I volunteered to serve anywhere in the church, my name was flagged. According to PW, no evidence or witnesses existed and I was refused the right to see the letter, being told that the letter was the personal correspondence of Dr. Rogers. When my wife and I invoked Matthew 18, PW told us that he "didn't have the time. In the past seven years, we've come across others who have been victimized by PW's list and Bellevue's policy of "secret character assasination. I'll sign my name to this one.

Leland D. Hopkins

Anonymous said...

To the board...

Please, please don't feed the trolls. As the main page for this blog says, we have a very serious problem.

Certain posters are not adding anything to this blog that is helpful.

Regardless of what they think of this blog, the fact of the matter is that without this blog PW would still returning to work in the morning.

I do not know of ANY reputable minister in the SBC who would condone keeping a confessed pedophile on as a minister for a moment... much less six months.

Some are coming to this board and are just now finding out. After the shock wears off, and after the disgust wears off, there will be anger.

It is not a matter of if, but when the media decide to handle this. Between that attention and the coming parental revolt, the leadership has major problems ahead.

Reality was: Bellevue had a confessed pedophile in a senior ministerial position and left him there for six months.

Perception was: nothing... the people didn't know--until this blog shed light on the matter.

Now Perception is beginning to catch up with reality.

This blog needs to be a place that makes sense and a place of clarity while the moral compass of Bellevue's leadership spins out of control.

Anonymous said...

Can you imagine teaching a class every Sunday as an immoral "minister of the gospel" ?

Can you imagine teaching classes on parenting after doing that to your own son?

What about the spiritual gift classes? Teaching your class that if you want your "flashlight" to work, you need the batteries, the power from the Holy Spirit... all the time knowing that you were WRONG in your own walk?

Having Sunday School fellowships? Making relationships with married couples and giving them spiritual advice?

grieved

CH said...

Ace,

Serious question for you:

Assuming that all authority is there by the will and good pleasure of our sovereign God, are we to submit to that authority at all times, regardless? Is there ever a limit or point at which that authority is no longer to be viewed as legitimate and worthy of our submission? I'm speaking here of authority in general — church, civil (government), parental.

If your answer to the first part is yes — that we are to submit to authority at all times, regardless — then what say you to the groups trying to smuggle Bibles into communist China against the edicts of that governmental authority?

What say you to the millions of Jews who were gathered and executed by the Nazis? Should they have marched themselves into the gas chambers as they were instructed by that authority?

What say you to our revolutionary forefathers who refused to submit any longer to the authority of the king of England and instead fought for our independence as a nation?

What say you to the authority of a rogue president who asserts that our Constitution is nothing more than a "g**d*** piece of paper" and therefore has no qualms about ignoring it? (Some of you may be quite startled to discover exactly which president said this.)

What say you to the authority of a father who for 17 years has, in one manner or another, persuaded his son to keep quiet about one of the most perverse, despicable acts one can commit?

What say you?


(PS — NASS and all readers, please forgive me for even posting the censored version of that horrible phrase above. I did so to illustrate the point, and to hopefully awaken more people to what's happened/happening to our country.)

Anonymous said...

none of us could keep our job or even get a job with a record as a child rapist...are living in bizzaro world?

Tim said...

Mike,

Welcome to the blog. I notice that you are a new poster here. Have you been reading along before now or just trying to get some of the facts.

Anonymous said...

Ace I thought you were going to ignore me.I guess that makes you a liar.

Tell you what ,save your time responding to me I'll do it for you in your own words.

"ace will say. inever said that. you haven't read my post. you are hatful.you are pathetic.I don't have the facts.blog master he is picking on me, you are mean,i'm not going to respond to you any more, he is annointed,he is annointed,he is annointed,he is annointed,he is annointed,and i will follow him,you are a bunch of trouble makers "

CH said...

For an excellent look at Romans 13, please click here. This is an interview between Pastor Chuck Baldwin and Dr. Greg Dixon.

ezekiel said...

Ace,

Did not have time yet..

To busy reading the other link you sent. To quote:

"The essence of 1 Corinthians 13:9 says “…we know in part and we prophecy in part…” God tells us that our pastors' knowledge is limited and what He reveals to them will often be incomplete. Although God’s word is perfect it is delivered through an imperfect vessel. This means that sometimes what is spoken will reflect the personal idiosyncrasies of whoever is speaking. This explains why some pastors preach a political message and others a prosperity message, both messages can be found in the scripture but the pastor preaches where he or she is as well as where they think their congregation is. Truth is like a jig saw puzzle and we need all the pieces in order to see the big picture. It is not possible for your pastor to know everything because omniscience is a characteristic that is reserved only for God. Believers not only have the responsibility to seek the scripture themselves but to pray that their pastors are truly hearing from God."

Ace if you swallow this, well God help us all.

Although God’s word is perfect it is delivered through an imperfect vessel.

(When did the Bible become imperfect?)

This means that sometimes what is spoken will reflect the personal idiosyncrasies of whoever is speaking. (What about the holy spirit? Is this mans word or God's word?)

This explains why some pastors preach a political message and others a prosperity message (wow, whatever happened to the gospel Paul lost his life for)

Ace, I am speechless....Going to bed.

Anonymous said...

there is a word that usually describes someone who would keep a confessed child rapist on staff for six months after discovery...

FIRED!!!

Anonymous said...

Ace,

Assuming that all authority is there by the will and good pleasure of our sovereign God, are we to submit to that authority at all times, regardless?

No. Again, I urge you to read the article I posted a link to just a few minutes ago...it's an interesting read. It addresses that concern.

Anonymous said...

charis,

you ask how can an immoral minister teach class ect...

he cant...a child rapist with a religious degree and job can though

Anonymous said...

You know, "they" are so hard on the members, the troublemakers, the wounded, the blacklisted ones, the divorced, the outcasts, yet "they" want grace. It's different when the shoe's on the other foot.

Leland Hopkins and family- I'm truly sorry you went through such an un-Christlike attack.

Anonymous said...

Ezekial,

Surely I'm missing the point of your last message.

The article said:
"Although God’s word is perfect it is delivered through an imperfect vessel. "

Then you said:"When did the Bible become imperfect?)"

The Bible is of course perfect...it would be the preacher that is imperfect. I think you know this and I'm misundertanding your last post and if that's the case, I'm sorry and would like for you to clarify what you mean.

Anonymous said...

Here are a few important changes that would help during these days of crisis in leadership:

I. Pastoral Accountability to the Congregation:
1. A business meeting in accord with Matthew 18 to deal with the issues that remain related to Mark Sharpe and "the Dream"... and any other loose ends that should have been dealt with months ago!!
2. The giving records of the membership and the ministers on staff at Bellevue should never be for pastoral review in any shape, form, or fashion.
3. No church credit cards.
4. An admission Dr. Gaines should have never given $25k to FUMC and an explanation of policy changes to prevent a repeat.
5. A policy for open books on Holy land trips and no overcharging of members. Free tickets for the host and wife are fine but not for anybody else.
6. Full disclosure of ministerial compensation: salary + benefit breakdown, etc.
7. Immediate removal from office of ministers guilty of sexual immorality with immediate and transparent coordination with the appropriate authorities if any laws have been broken by a minister (no matter how long ago), including thorough investigation of the matter when the minister’s conduct may have affected other church members or their children.

II. Congregational Church governance:
Some of the congregation has awakened to the reality that our church has a set of "lay-elders," a close knit group of men who manage to be appointed to key positions year after year. The rest of the congregation needs to be awakened.

1. Those who are part of this lay-elder "power block" need to step down from positions of influence for a long time. Bellevue needs “new blood” in these key positions.
2. There needs to be the signing of a public conflict of interest form for any member that has any business contract to provide services for the church. These people should not be allowed to serve on committees that review bids for their services.
3. Congregational nomination of and election of all of the Board of Directors as called for in the 1929 bylaws.
4. A quarterly business meeting with open mike Q&A with each committee chairman. **The current bylaws mention "monthly" business meetings! When were they changed??
5. A good updated set of bylaws similar to GBC.
6. A transparent committee selection process.
7. Much greater congregational oversight of the current budget with a transparent policy for consideration of non-budgeted expenditures exceeding a reasonable amount.
8. Thorough communication with the Congregation for ANY capital project well in advance of any vote. Building prayer buildings or any other type of building should be brought through proper channels to the congregation for prayerful consideration--not coerced "rubber stamping." [By the way, Dr. Rogers taught us quite a bit about prayer. As a matter of fact, I believe all of the current buildings ARE prayer buildings already. He and Dr. Whitmire also taught us quite a bit about worship also... but that's another topic].
9. Bellevue needs to reject Warrenism fully and finally.
10. Higher standards should be put in place for the hiring of "ministers." Seminary training should be considered a normal prerequisite.

III. Treatment of ministers on staff at BBC and members:
1. A whistle blower policy for ministers, staff, and members.
2. The end of heavy handed dealing with ministers, staff, and members; and the end of signing non-disclosure statements. All ministers who have been pressured or asked to sign such non-disclosure statements should be released from them in writing by BBC! Former staff should be allowed to address the congregation and/or the deacon body either in writing or in person without any fear of reprisal regarding their exit from BBC. Gaines has confessed to mishandling Dr. Whimire's exit... The congregation now needs to hear from Dr. Whimire--and several others--by letter or in person IN THEIR OWN WORDS. The congregation needs to know how their leadership has treated and is treating ministers who leave the service of our Lord through BBC.
3. Forgiveness for those in leadership who have allowed this to deteriorate to this point--AND consequences for their actions.

All in my opinion as usual.

We are to be “providing things honestly in the sight of all men” (Rom. 12:17). Revival, reform, congregational oversight... for there is level ground at Calvary and "he who would be great among you shall be the servant of all."

Anonymous said...

china shop bull said...
anyone, please answer...
where do 'christian' rapists go for counseling? (I always thought it was jail)

11:15 PM, December 17, 2006

Sadly they end up on the Bellevue staff in a highly paid position where they counsul victims of abuse
and evidently keep secret files on church members and act as quality review ministers for Bellevue.

Anonymous said...

sg is a well paid talking head who is now way in over his head, and now it is time for his head to roll (metaphorically speaking)

Anonymous said...

china bull,

FYI, the intent of the comment was not to minimize his offense. Just to make the point of how grossly hypocritical (and word that doesn't do it justice either) to live such a lie.

Anonymous said...

sadly enough, after sg resign or is fired, another 'mega' church will probably scoop him up...and then there will be another blog like this one... 'lion king quote': 'it's the sbc circle of life'

Anonymous said...

That has to be a huge room to keep files on all "30,000" members!

Anonymous said...

charis,

didn't think you were minimizing (I was hoping to augment that thought);
my point is that this is not the character or conduct of 'any' minister...only a religious worldling

sad that the bbc 'goodfellas' dont understand this

CH said...

Memphis,

Take away the 20,000+ who don't show up any given Sunday, then subtract the vast numbers who don't volunteer to serve in any ministry or otherwise get involved in anything outside the worship service... suddenly that list becomes far more manageable.

Anonymous said...

Memphis,

That has to be a huge room to keep files on all "30,000" members!

The files are actually kept at a secret undisclosed location only known to 3 people. It is off of the Bellevue Campus so no one will accidentally cross paths with all those files.

Anonymous said...

maybe the 'room' can be used as a counting room when they tally the votes for the pastor to leave

CH said...

25,

Something's wrong with your computer. You keep posting the same list of changes over and over again.

Oh, wait... that list actually makes sense! (Keep it up! Maybe more people will read it and open their eyes.)

Anonymous said...

Oh well, there won't be any little pink pigs teaching a class anytime Mikesoon,I guess. :(


Mike,

Afraid to respond to Tim? He's really a sweet guy.

Anonymous said...

suddenly that list becomes far more manageable.


So there is someone on staff paid to dig up dirt on anyone that volunteeers? C'mon

Anonymous said...

when a pastor is voted out, is it by voice, show of hands, or ballot?

oh right, the 50 word set of bylaws dont cover that

Anonymous said...

Next somone is going to say that they are tracing ISPs to find out who posts on here.....oh, wait a minute, is that possible???

Anonymous said...

Memphis said...
That has to be a huge room to keep files on all "30,000" members!

11:46 PM, December 17, 2006


Not really any decent computer could do it.

Tim said...

china shop bull,

Not to terribly long ago, I believe the correct way to handle this situation would be to contact the local road building contractor. Then you would need to go to the nearest Tyson processing plant and viola you have everything needed for a good old-fashioned tar and feathering.

Anonymous said...

there is someone paid to dig up dirt on the members. other rigorous parts of their training include:
-fence jump training
-'i dont know' recitations
-proper voice inflections for 'like it or leave it'
-printing out 'i support my pastor' bumper stickers

just check your brain and conscience at the door

Anonymous said...

Sorry, it's late. Here's my amended post:

Oh well, I guess there won't be any little pink pigs teaching a class soon, I guess. :(

Mike:

Scared to respond to Tim? He's really a sweet guy!

Anonymous said...

tim,

is the tar and feathering a process whereby paid leave is involved?

is tar removable a reimbursable expense?

do the deacons get first bids on the tar contract?

Anonymous said...

They are really printing out thsoe bumper stickers?

Anonymous said...

Let's pray for Bellevue. Let's not become skeptical of all who are in the ministry.

Bellevue enjoyed the ministry of a minister who had integrity for thirty years.

Surely there are no ministers without sin, but there are ministers with integrity who would handle situations like this with integrity. There are ministers out there who do not hide behind Communications Committees. There are ministers out there who do not fear the people in their church and who welcome free and open dialog in a business meeting.

Have we seen enough to disillusion many of us... yes. The antidote for this is fixing our eyes on Jesus. He never lets us down.

When an undershepherd fails, the sheep need to call on the Good Shepherd to help them.

Let's pray for Bellevue. Let's pray for Steve Gaines. Let's pray for the family involved in this crisis. Let's especially pray for the main victim in this matter. Let's pray for the congregation's eyes to be opened to understand that the lack of moral, ethical, wise leadership at Bellevue is what is shaking this church and not some internet blog.

Anonymous said...

Bravo China Shop Bull!

(enthusiastic clapping and whistling)

Anonymous said...

tim,
i forgot...

is tar and feathering worthy of a standing ovation?

New BBC Open Forum said...

china shop bull,

Just curious about something. Are you a Bellevue member?

Tim said...

china shop bull,

The tar is a deductible moving expense. Similar to airline tickets for cheerleading camps.

The feathers are considered a by product of a reimbursable meal for VIP guests.

All contracts are usually run by the staff first to see if anyone has a business activity with which to fleece the flock. Then if there are none they allow the deacon body to collect wool.

Anonymous said...

china shop bull said...
there is someone paid to dig up dirt on the members. other rigorous parts of their training include:
-fence jump training
-'i dont know' recitations
-proper voice inflections for 'like it or leave it'
-printing out 'i support my pastor' bumper stickers

just check your brain and conscience at the door

11:57 PM, December 17, 2006

Don't forget how to address questions from the peons in the pew training with such responses as
"I don't know"
"next question"
"I'll get back to you"
and the classic " a blank empty glazed expression then the words next question"

Anonymous said...

Memphis said...
suddenly that list becomes far more manageable.


So there is someone on staff paid to dig up dirt on anyone that volunteeers? C'mon

11:53 PM, December 17, 2006


Memphis,

When you become a volunteer in any capacity and/or a staff member, they go through everything about you from your credit (not necessarily credit for ALL volunteer positions) to your FBI background file.

And there are staff members paid to do this. I used to deal with them on a weekly basis.

The statement about taking away 20,000 of the member-base and using a computer is right on the money. They know everything from how much you tithe (which, under SG WILL keep you from even volunteering) to how many times you have been to service.

It has always been a complaint for me because it seems to simply be about numbers.

Sorry, just wanted to chime in. Y'all always seem to have so much fun on here :P

NPYFIM

Anonymous said...

nbbcof; (NASS, i believe)

yes, i posted here before using my first and middle name, and lo and behold, someone commented to me about it; nothing really negative, but was amazed

i really do think there are those who lurk and record, not that it matters...just a nobody...who is fed up

Anonymous said...

tim
trucker

you guys so crazzzzy!!

New BBC Open Forum said...

It's no joke, folks. You really will be scrolling through 1000 or more comments if you keep this up because I'm not going to be near the computer during the day tomorrow to start a new thread. We've blown off some steam tonight, which I realize is a necessary release sometimes, but enough is enough.

These are serious issues affecting our church. Please go get some rest and come back tomorrow refreshed and ready to address these things in a serious manner. We're losing credibility with all the silliness and troll feeding tonight.

Thank you,

NBBCOF

Anonymous said...

NPYFIM, I am familiar with background checks, but my question is how does the Church obtain all that information? Unless you give them the SSN, and account information, and when I volunteered, I know I did not give any of that information.

Now some of the higher up postitions I would have no problem with them doing a background check, but to say they do this on all volunteers sounds little far fetched to me.

Anonymous said...

Memphis,

Most of the time they request it from volunteers. When I started as a volunteer in the gym they asked me for it, well at least my SSN.

When I went to staffer they did a more formal background check.

Hopefully they have changed their ways, but I know there is SO MUCH information on people, even in the gym computers alone.

NPYFIM

Anonymous said...

China Shop Bull

I'm sure somebody is taking names and tattling on us. That's why I doubt any little pink pigs will be teaching any classes....

I'm going to listen to the MaMa sheep and get some sleep.

G'nite all!

Anonymous said...

nbbcof

sorry for all steam blowing, silliness, tomfoolery, and other things of a shenanigan like nature

may your wisdom only be exceeded by your blogmercy and forgiveness

Anonymous said...

NPYFIM, did they tell you they were going to do an extensive background check on you?

Anonymous said...

So Bellevue has it`s own version of the FBI!

Well, it`s looks like we are the Bellevue CSI!

We`re dealing with criminals at Bellevue and they dare to rate volunteers and blacklist people for writing letters to the pastor?

Paul Williams was the person who made decision about who could or could not volunteer while he was raping, abusing, sodomizing, confusing, and assaulting his own son?

Bellevue has had a homosexual pedophileing ministry and no one cares.

What in world do we even offer care groups for? Is it so these types can find more victims to abuse and rape?

What else are we going to find my CSI friends?

I think there is a lot more we have yet to discover!

Anonymous said...

NPYFIM

Did you happen to know about Paul Williams while you were on staff at Bellevue?

Anonymous said...

Memphis,

When I was a volunteer, no, they didn't even ask my permission. they told me that the SSN was necessary for employment, which I could understand at the time.

I did not find out they had run a preliminary background check until I was a staffer and was able to access my "file".

And here is something else that I will say that may freak some people out ... I can remember people sitting at the desk in the gym and pulling up info on members - the files replete with personal info - and either commenting on it or gossiping.

I certainly hope that they have done a better job of keeping a lid on personal info.

And the reason they keep these "files"? I quote, "We always want to be relevant to the needs of our members."

When the pieces start to come together, it makes quite a picture.

NPYFIM

Anonymous said...

I worked with PW some but moreso for me I was involved in the prayer ministry under him. Nothing of this matter ever came out to anyone, at least not us lowly staffers.

I also was in the college ministry with his kids and went to college with his son.

I was involved on one incident with him as far as counseling, when I left my staff position at BBC. It is in more detail on my blog but basically it all came down to me "having secret sin" in my life (yes, He did tell me that) because I disagreed with some blatantly sinful things I saw behind the scenes. Knowing then that my heart was clean before the Lord and hearing this now, it is too painful.

I am not sure if I am more shocked or more hurt by it all, but I will keep praying for him and his family.

NPYFIM

Anonymous said...

china shop bull said...

i really do think there are those who lurk and record, not that it matters...just a nobody...who is fed up



And you would be so right. His name is ACE.

Hey, Ace take a bow.

Ace reports anything that he feels is noteworthy back to the church staff.

The only good reporting he has ever done was to put one of KING STEVE`s jesters in touch with David Brown.

From that connection we find out that David C. is also an untrustworthy liar but at least he confirmed that the Paul Williams sodomizing rape of his son was true. Thank you David for that one gem of truth.

BTW now I know at least two new things about David C.

He is a liar and he has no problem buying booze for his family.

Anonymous said...

NPYFIM,

I understand your blog name. It's most definitely applicable.

So, how do we recover from the disappointment, disillusionment, discouragement? Have you recovered?

CH said...
This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
Anonymous said...

Charis,

For me, it took God leading me into situations where all I could do was look to Him for strength and guidance, and not my personal experience or my bible fellowship attendance or anything else. I see so much of what is happening at BBC in this light - it is ABOUT A RELATIONSHIP!

My blog name has formerly brainwashed bellevuer in it, but what I mean by that is I (ME) replaced my personal relationship with Jesus with service to men and church. I think a lot of people would heal faster by taking a step back and letting God talk to them in the silence of their own hearts.

It is certainly not a bad thing to be involved and we are required to use our talents that we have been given.

When BBC turns back to it's first love, which I truly feel (esp from this blog) that it is, the disillusionment and discouragement will be gone.

So will the people whom God has not truly ordained to be where they are now.

I am still healing but I am also thankful to meet so many people on the same path. God breaks us to mold us into a new vessel when He has a new job for us.

He is doing mighty mighty things in His people for such a time as this.



NPYFIM

Anonymous said...

NPYFIM,

I read somewhere that ole`Phil Weatherwax couldn`t recall who you are from reading your blog information.

Really timely amnesia, don`t you think?

I just imagine you feel like a lot of others who were counseled by Paul Williams.

A little scarry to think someone so dark and sinister could be privy to your personal thoughts and then dare give your spiritual counsel.

Do you think the prayer ministry was effected or tainted by Paul Williams being the Prayer Minister?

Remembering that Steve said he was going teach us how to pray, wee all I can say is WOW, It sure takes on a new meaning for me.

Do we all need to sink to Paul Williams depth of depravity to be in the prayer ministry King Steve?

Anonymous said...

The whole church mentality has been too wrapped around buildings and programs. The church is the pure spotless bride.

May we keep our eyes on the Author and Finisher of our faith

Anonymous said...

Charis, amen to your words.

Truth - I was certainly not surprised about Weatherwax (he really can't do anything to surprise me) but I have to say that when I learned of the Paul Williams stuff my heart SANK. So many times, so many prayer requests, and while God is in control and thankfully He answers the prayers of His people, I have thought about the PM all day and what may have been different? I mean nothing jumps out but now we will be wondering...

And also, like you said about the counseling, it just caused me to sink further in my chair and simply stare. To have someone say the things that were said to me, and rush me out and say "I really don't have anymore time for this" ... and for this to come out now?

Thankfully, God is on the throne and not some of these ministers who seem to act like they borrow it from time to time.

NPYFIM

Anonymous said...

Do you think the prayer ministry was effected or tainted by Paul Williams being the Prayer Minister?

How could it not have been affected?

How many people received a word from man rather than the word from the Lord they were hoping to find in Biblical guidance?

Grieved. Grieved.

Anonymous said...

Please remember that we all view the things that happen in this world through a filter of our own experiences. We are all human. You need to really and truly seek peace with God before you voice your opinions, don't just react with your human emotions and mind.

For those of you who truly believe that the path of Bellevue is at risk- I advise you to step up and be positive and get involved in a productive way. If you truly believe in Bellevue, you can see that maybe the solution is not more complaints and talking but action. I am referring to positive action- if you do not believe that Steve Gaines is appointed by God, perhaps you can view that his appointment at Bellevue has served to bring things to light that have been a part of our church for many years. Instead of condemning people for not doing enough to protect our children, why not volunteer to work in the nursery to help insure that they are safe and protected every week? The childcare ministry is always in need of workers.
Search your heart and see if you can find a resolution that would leave you at peace with Bellevue- if you can you have a responsibility to be a force of good in our church. I find it hard to believe you can be a force of good while typing hateful things regarding intangible things that you have no way of verifying (ie. whether God appointed Steve Gaines). There is nothing to be gained by arguing about it.
Your goal and mission as a follower of Christ is to evangelize and bring others to know Him. Every time you post a comment please consider if it is helping to further the kingdom of God. Because I can tell you that the things that are happening and the way it is being handled are not endearing many non-believers to the church. It is only serving to further alienate them. Every time you hit the "publish" button please stop and be thankful for a moment that you live in a time and place where you have the freedom to speak your mind. Be thankful for a church that inspires this much passion in people- just try to do everything in your power to channel that passion into a desire to bring more people to Christ and that for all the faults you can find in the 'establishment' of Bellevue somewhere along the way there was something that drew you there in the first place. A large portion of our church is made up of hard-working Christians who sacrifice their time and money to bring others to the Lord and when you make a blanket attack against the church you are attacking these people as well.
I will not tell you to be "sheep" or just go along with things you don't believe in but in every action you take please think how it impacts others and how it fulfills the great commission. Pray for God's will for our church- He is all-powerful and if everyone here spent as much time in heartfelt prayer seeking God's will as they did typing I believe God's plan for our church would be fulfilled and we could have peace in our church family again.

And Jesus came and spoke to them, saying, "All authority has been given to Me in heaven and on earth. Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all things that I have commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age." Amen. (Matthew 28:18-20)

Anonymous said...

bepatient said: Your goal and mission as a follower of Christ is to evangelize and bring others to know Him.

My goal is not that. My goal is "to know Him in the power of His resurrection" To make disciples, one must first be one. To be a follower, a learner of Christ. Not seeking the approval of men.

He said, "I didn't come to bring peace, but a sword." By nature, the truth divides.

To harbor someone who committed such a heinous crime? Inexcusable. There can be no peace with such sin in the camp

The Lord's reputation and the reputation of His bride is His business. Never sacrifice the truth for the sake of the reputation of a building.

Anonymous said...

To add:

I do agree that some matters discussed have been a "non-issue" and could be divisive when they shouldn't be. Each member is finding their own way through the fog caused by darkness, lies, coverups... And it's painful to have our church home ripped apart. Some things, however should be LOUDLY protested. Harboring/supporting a pedophile? inexcusable.

Anonymous said...

Charis,

Again right on point. We are called to witness and serve but we are never called to blindly leave our brains at the door.

The 6 month prior knowledge and proverbial "sweeping under the rug" is absolutely baffling, if for no other reason for the sake of what would happen if it got out ....

Oh, and how it has. I just cannot understand the logic behind that decision especially in light of Scripture.

How interesting that this comes out this week and they just recently ended the Communications Committee (I can't ever spell committee right so please forgive me) meetings on Sunday morning.

Lots of coincidences going around, huh?

Anonymous said...

I am not seeking to preserve a reputation. I am seeking to preserve a body of Christ that has been bringing people to the Lord for many years.

Jesus commanded us to evangelize. You don't get to forget that part while you are focusing on finding "the truth". And I don't believe those things have to be mutually exclusive. But you don't get to pick and choose what parts of the Bible to focus on while you are doing something like this.

As far as your comment "To harbor someone who committed such a heinous crime? Inexcusable. There can be no peace with such sin in the camp"

- If the church didn't harbor sinners, there would be no church. I promise that in a church this size there are many many others who have committed heinous acts. That does not mean that they cannot serve God. God's forgiveness covers them just as it covers your sins and it is an insult to the power of God to say that He cannot heal them from this.

Now, I would like to say that under no circumstances am I trying to say that we should just give total amnesty to anyone who sins and wants to be in leadership at the church. I just don't know enough about him personally and the situation to say what the answer needs to be.

Anonymous said...

I am not asking or encouraging anyone to turn a blind eye to anything they feel is unacceptable! Please do not mistake that. I am just reminding everyone to slow down and pray about the action that you take and the way you respond to things.

And I think that we can both agree that if you take the time to search for God's path you will have true power in the actions you take.

I just don't want anyone to lose sight of ministering to others as we go through this process. From what I have read here most of it is focused on blame, arguments, and name-calling instead of trying to find a solution. I know that is probably not a true representation of everyone here but I am speaking of the overall tone.

Anonymous said...

bepatient,

Most of the people on here are truly concerned brothers and sisters, and your words ring true as far as ministering to each other and also being careful with posts in the light of evangelism.

Thanks for your words and prayers, and please know that even though there are those who do name call and act silly on here at times, people are thinking again and truly seeking the truth.

Thanks for joining us by posting.

NPYFIM

allofgrace said...

To all,
Regardless of where you stand on this current issue, there are some realities that must be faced. In light of what has been revealed concerning PW, he must step down or be removed from his position permanently. Why? Because obviously he has a particular temptation in his life that has overtaken him. Is this sad?...of course...should BBC seek to restore him to fellowship and use whatever means it has to counsel, bring healing and restoration to him, his victim, and his family?...of course, I believe that is Biblical. Can he or should he be restored to his ministerial position?...no...why? Because God holds leaders to a higher standard. Whether you like it or not, it's just not possible. Are we all sinners?..yes...are we all capable of the same heinous sins? Yes...we never lose our capacity for sin in this life because we still carry with us the corruption of the flesh. But just because we all have the capacity does not relieve us from the responsibility of holding one another accountable. Do elders have God ordained authority in the local body?..yes..that is a Biblical concept..but with authority comes heavy responsibility and accountability. Over and over in the scriptures leaders are rebuked for sinfulness and leading the people astray. I pose a question...remember Jimmy Swaggart?..for a moment forget the doctrinal differences...if, for the sake of argument, you were a member of an Assembly of God church..would you want to sit under his leadership?..he is one who supposedly was restored to ministry...would you trust him?...regardless of whether or not he has repeated his sin, he has lost credibility. That is the sad reality of what happens when a leader fails morally. There are more warnings in the scriptures regarding sexual sin than any other...why? Because sexual sin causes more destruction than any other sin..marriages are destroyed..families are destroyed..reputations are destroyed..confidence is destroyed..and the Bible tells us we sin against our own bodies when we sin sexually. Look at how far reaching David's sin with Bathsheba was. David was never the same man again..Uriah was murdered, a child conceived in adultery was taken, David's own son took his wives and concubines in tents on the roof of the palace before all Israel, another son raped his own daughter, another son struggled his whole life with sexual issues, though he was given more wisdom than any other man in history, and at the end wrote in Ecclesiastes "all is vanity". A very sad end. An important question must be asked in this. Why is this particular problem so rampant within our churches' leadership? I have been close to a couple of men in pastoral ministry and I can tell you from that experience that vocational ministry is sometimes a lonely position..and leaders often feel isolated from the body because of the position and the responsibilities that it entails. Add to that, the current trend of putting leaders on a pedestal, and endowing them with great authority above and beyond scriptural warrant, with little or no accountability..and you have the recipe for failure and disaster. Leadership by plurality of elders is a Biblical pattern I believe...but the elders of a church should be nominated and approved by the congregation, not handpicked by a senior pastor...that way the wisdom, discernment, and giftings of the congregation are brought into these important decisions. There should be mutual accountability among the elders, between elders and congregation, and to each other individually. The problem I believe, is a result of poor church government...even a new set of by-laws..or for that matter, any form of church government, still depends on mutual accountability and integrity for it's success. Our first president, in great wisdom understood that our nation's form of government could only work for a moral people. So it is I believe with governing our churches. Just as our country can only survive as a moral nation with God as it's head, so it is with the church. From it's leaders to the congregation we must be submitted and loyal to Christ, who is over the church and all things. Think on these things beloved.

youwillknowthem said...

AOG,

What a magnificant post!

Anonymous said...

Please everyone, stop trying to"reason" with ace. It's not possible and he is not able to learn anything at this point. Don't confuse him with the facts, his mind is made up. He has
blind faith in a man he likes and thats that.

It is boring and worthless reading anthing he says and no one can help him see the truth.

Anonymous said...

AOG-
Amen. Amen. Amen.

Anonymous said...

Let's remember to pray for our ministerial staff. Put yourself in their shoes. They feel a call to minister at Bellevue under Dr. Rogers and are serving gladly until the last year. Since associate pastors and staff give up the right to criticize the senior pastor openly, their only recourse is to leave (which some have chosen to do) or stay and be publicly supportive. It is a hard place to be.

Anonymous said...

Good morning board,

Allofgrace,

I like that name. It is certainly all of God's grace. I liked your earlier post with a single exception. You wrote:

"Leadership by plurality of elders is a Biblical pattern I believe..."

The idea of multiple elders or pastors is a misunderstanding of the NT's portrait of the mid-first century leadership. At Jerusalem and Ephesus (and other large metropolitan places) there were house churches served by pastors. Read Acts 20:20-21 carefully ("and from house to house"). Our Lord wrote the letters to the churches at the end of the century to "the angel of the church." That's "angel" in the classic sense of messenger--singular.

This thread is not for that issue; however if you would like to discuss this just email NASS and ask her to forward it.

I enjoyed the rest of your post, but the last thing Bellevue needs right now is for anyone to suggest that a new set of bylaws should reflect multiplicity of elders. Ask anyone at GBC...

It is all of grace though. For we were dead in trespasses and sins.

To the rest of the board:

Let's keep this thread as clean as possible today. Remember the fruits of the Spirit and pass them out as posters come to this board...

Return good for evil if someone comes trying to shift the blame here. Let's stay with the facts and avoid name calling and feeding the trolls.

Consider the fact that the audience contains: 1) members of Bellevue who are not up to speed yet on what has been happening at Bellevue; 2) the press; 3) possibly law enforcement; 4) hecklers of various stripes.

Another poster mentioned the importance of evangelism. It is important; however, worship is primary and evangelism flows out of worship. The Father seeks those to worship Him in spirit and in truth. Right now the latter part of that is under assault.

If you are coming to this blog for the first time, please read the whole first page of the Forum in order to get an idea of what has been discussed here.

Jesus' letters to the seven churches were placed in God's Word for all to see. They included rebukes for sin that included fornication. There were rebukes for leadership and members. Only the two churches in persecution received no rebuke from Him.

What would the text of His letter be to Bellevue today?

Anonymous said...

A snip from Snap

Victims of Baptist clergy abuse urge SBC leaders to take action
By Hannah Elliott
Published September 27, 2006


NASHVILLE (ABP) -- Members of the coalition that fought the Roman Catholic Church's hierarchy over sexual abuse by priests are asking the Southern Baptist Convention to prevent similar clergy abuse in the denomination's churches.

Members of the Survivors Network of those Abused by Priests, or SNAP, delivered a letter to the SBC Executive Committee at its Nashville headquarters Sept. 26. It asks convention leaders to form an independent review board to receive and investigate charges of clergy abuse in Southern Baptist congregations.

Abuse from clergy is a "systemic" problem, the letter said, and must be addressed by the denomination's main permanent governing body, the Executive Committee. SNAP members also mailed the missive to South Carolina pastor Frank Page, who was elected to the SBC presidency in June.

The letter is the second one they have sent to Southern Baptist leaders.

"Just as [a] family member cannot properly investigate a molestation claim made against a close relative, local church leaders cannot properly investigate a report of clergy abuse made against a much-loved minister," SNAP members wrote. "The usual dynamics dictate that there cannot possibly be a proper inquiry without outside intervention."

Part of the difficulty the SBC faces in taking aggressive action involves the autonomous nature of local churches in Baptist polity. Since individual congregations have full control over their decision-making and governing processes, the SBC can't dictate rules or punishment to them.

Christa Brown, 54, who said she was abused by a Southern Baptist youth minister in 1968, told Associated Baptist Press she believes if SBC leaders cared enough to focus on protecting kids, they would not let congregational autonomy be an impediment to action.

"For denominational leaders to use congregational autonomy as an excuse for inaction strikes me as a rather Pharisee-like focus on an ecclesiological legalism," said Brown, who maintains www.stopbaptistpredators.org , a website aimed at challenging Southern Baptist leaders to "get tough" on sex abuse by clergy. "And it's a misplaced focus that is very dangerous because it leaves kids at risk."

In January, Brown won an apology from the Texas Baptist church that employed the youth minister she says sexually abused her when she was 16. Officials took no legal action against the man at the time, and he was employed by other churches for more than two decades. Brown filed a lawsuit that was settled out of court last year.

Abuse survivors complain that too often abusive ministers move on to other churches without being punished, only to repeat the abuse in another location.

The SNAP letter said that, given the frequently reported pattern of church officials failing to respond to clergy-abuse allegations, the SBC must provide national leadership to rid the ranks of such repetitive predators.

"When kids are at stake, there is no place for passivity on the part of denominational leaders," it said.

David Clohessy, Mike Coode, Miguel Prats and Brown said in their letter that the denomination's structure is no excuse for Executive Committee inaction.

Southern Baptists have shown themselves capable of cooperative endeavors when they choose, they wrote, so, "given that congregational autonomy does not preclude a cooperative denomination-wide effort for these other endeavors, why should it preclude a domination-wide effort at protecting kids from clergy predators?"

SBC president Page responded to SNAP's first letter. After stating how disturbed he was by the egregious abuse of power in some local churches, Page said he would meet with SBC officials to see whether they "might provide this kind of assistance without infringing upon the autonomy of these state-level or local-level entities."

Requests in the latest letter call for a victim hotline, church-wide education about sexual abuse, and a "zero tolerance" policy for Southern Baptist churches that hire someone with any report of having sexually abused a minor. Another issue in the letter highlights the fact that the Baptist General Convention of Texas keeps confidential a file of ministers who reportedly committed sexual misconduct. The SNAP representatives said parents nationwide should have access to the list.

The SNAP letter asks the SBC Executive Committee to recommend the establishment of a review board to messengers at the SBC's 2007 annual meeting, set for San Antonio.

According to the Tennessean of Nashville, SBC officials have said they will continue to provide support for abuse victims and will fully support criminal prosecution when necessary.

pinker socks said...

bepatient,
The church does not harbor sin or sinners. The church ministers to sinners, shining in the light of truth so that the sinner may see their sin for what it is and repent. You will not find any scripture that tells the church to harbor sinners. In fact Paul came down very hard on the church that had sexual sin among them.
Jesus stated that it would be better to have a millstone put around your neck and be thrown into the see rather than cause a little one to stumble. Please don't be weak spined about this. This is a harsh sin and should be dealth with in a harsh way. This man is arrogant to have continued as a MINISTER OF GOD knowing what was in his heart and knowing what he has done. That is a common trait of pedophiles; they are very arrogant self serving people.

PS Please ignore ace. I have to scroll so much to get past all of the rediculous arguments.

cjesusnme said...

25+years:

Thank you so much for your words of wisdom! We value it and your support as we search for the truth and in the process, continue to glorify our Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ! I think the biggest part of our responsibility as Christians, is to continue to be in prayer for ALL involved at BBC. Thank you again for your healing words. You are a blessing to all of us!

God Bless

Bereans said...

25years-

Great question: What would Jesus write in a letter to Bellevue today?

I think it would look a lot like the letter Paul wrote to the Corinthian church in I Cor. 5.

That church was dealing with an immoral member (not minister) and Paul rebuked the church for being prideful of their tolerance toward this man. They thought they were doing a good thing in respecting his confidentiality and keeping it quiet. Paul did not advise them to seek legal counsel or hold an investigation. He spelled out what the decisive action should have been. Remember, this was just a member and not a minister. Imagine how much stronger his response would have been in that case.

Paul set the qualifications for ministers. He said they should be blameless and of good reputation. We've all heard many sermons on what that means.

At any rate, your question is worth some thought. Thanks-

Anonymous said...

Amen Bereans.

The part in that chapter about "purge out the leaven" is clear. By the second letter the member evidently repented and was allowed to remain in membership--but, since they were not "blameless" for those within the congregation or without for that matter since even the Gentiles did not commit such heinous acts--they were disqualified from leadership in the church--office of pastor or deacon.

Anonymous said...

In the letter to the church of Pergamos the Lord Jesus praised Antipas, whose name means "against all." He stood up for truth to the death. He stood against idolatry and fornication and said that it was not compatible with the faith of Christ. Jesus called him "my faithful martyr."

We haven't struggled quite that hard yet.

When leadership will not take notes when people ask questions of the Committee that they assigned... When a pastor separates himself from the sheep when they have questions... When a pastor thinks of themself as above the mandates of Matthew 18... We all should work toward the end of bringing about the scriptural forum required by the Word of God!!

Bro. Gaines should have allowed Mark Sharp to meet with all of his brother deacons and deal with the "dream" episode. Had that occured then he would not have been in damage control mode in June when PW's situation came to light. When the "little things" are swept aside then the big things become stumbling blocks.
jmo

Anonymous said...

BePatient

After visitors make a decision for Christ and walk the aisles of Bellevue they are being taught by our leaders to stay in their sin. I`m ok, you`re ok!

If something isn`t done about this, we could easily end up with a church full of pedophiles, perverts, child abusers, liars, decievers, fornicators, adulterers, and every kind who feel no need to repent.

Bellevue is currently an EVANGELISTIC STUMBLING BLOCK TO THE WORLD.

They give an invitation, people walk the aisle, and Bellevue has it`s long foot out to trip them at the alter.

Finance Guy said...

piglet said
It WOULD be really cool, though, if the choir just stopped showing up. Would like to see him put a spin on THAT.

I understand where you are coming from, and once, I had a similar attitude. I really feel that instead of being really cool, it would be really sad, and we should be grieved that things are in such a state that what you suggested is even thinkable. When I read your comment, I couldn't help but think of the peacenik slogan "What if they gave a war and no one came?" What if they gave 'church', and no one came?

Dr. Rogers, in preaching about the last days said something to the effect of "God's judgment is beating against the dam of His mercy". (Wasn't he great with word pictures?) I wonder if Dr. Rogers was in fact Gods' "dam of mercy" at Bellevue, and once removed, we are watching the judgment be unleashed?
Time will tell

Anonymous said...

Martin Luther on Matthew 18

Address to the Christian Nobility
of the German Nation
(1520)

The Romanists have, with great adroitness, drawn three walls round themselves, with which they have hitherto protected themselves, so that no one could reform them, whereby all Christendom has fallen terribly.
First, if pressed by the temporal power, they have affirmed and maintained that the temporal power has no jurisdiction over them, but, on the contrary, that the spiritual power is above the temporal.
Secondly, if it were proposed to admonish them with the Scriptures, they objected that no one may interpret the Scriptures but the Pope.
Thirdly, if they are threatened with a council, they pretend that no one may call a council but the Pope ...
Now may God help us, and give us one of those trumpets that overthrew the walls of Jericho, so that we may blow down these walls of straw and paper, and that we may set free our Christian rods for the chastisement of sin, and expose the craft and deceit of the devil, so that we may amend ourselves by punishment and again obtain God's favour.
Let us, in the first place, attack the first wall.
It has been devised that the Pope, bishops, priests, and monks are called the spiritual estate; princes, lords, artificers, and peasants, are the temporal estate. This is an artful lie and hypocritical device, but let no one be made afraid by it, and that for this reason: that all Christians are truly of the spiritual estate, and there is no difference among them, save of office alone. As St. Paul says (i Cor. xii), we are all one body, though each member does its own work, to serve the others, This is because we have one baptism, one Gospel, one faith, and are all Christians alike; for baptism, Gospel, and faith, these alone make spiritual and Christian people.
As for the unction by a pope or a bishop, tonsure, ordination, consecration, and clothes differing from those of laymen-all this may make a hypocrite or an anointed puppet, but never a Christian or a spiritual man. Thus we are all consecrated as, priests by baptism, as St. Peter says: 'Ye are a royal priesthood, a holy nation (i Pet. ii. 9); and in the book of Revelation: 'and hast made us unto our God (by Thy blood) kings and priests' (Rev. v. io)....

And if it should happen that a man were appointed to one of these offices and deposed for abuses, he would be just what he was before. Therefore a priest should be nothing in Christendom but a functionary; as long as he holds his office, he has precedence of others; if he is deprived of it, he is a peasant or a citizen like the rest. Therefore a priest is verily no longer a priest after deposition. But now they have invented characteres indelibiles, and pretend that a priest after deprivation still differs from a simple layman. They even imagine that a priest can never be anything but a priest-that is, that he become a layman. All this is nothing but mere ordinance of human invention.
It follows then, that between laymen and priests, princes and bishops, or, as they call it, between spiritual and temporal sons, the only real difference is one of office and function, and not of estate. . . .

Therefore I say, Forasmuch as the temporal power has been ordained by God for the punishment of the bad and the protection of the good, we must let it do its duty throughout the whole Christian body, without respect of persons, whether it strike popes, bishops, priests, monks, nuns, or whoever it may be....

Whatever the ecclesiastical law has said in opposition to this is merely the invention of Romanist arrogance. . . .

The second wall is even more tottering and weak: that they end to be considered masters of the Scriptures. . . . If of our faith is right, 'I believe in the holy Christian church,' the Pope cannot alone be right; else we must say, 'I believe in the Pope of Rome,' and reduce the Christian Church to one man, which is a devilish and damnable heresy.

Besides that, we are all priests, as I have said, and have all one faith, one Gospel, one Sacrament ; how then should we not have the power of discerning and judging what is right or wrong in matters of faith ? ...

The third wall falls of itself, as soon as the first two have fallen; for if the Pope acts contrary to the Scriptures, we are bound to stand by the Scriptures to punish and to constrain him, according to Christ's commandment . 'tell it unto the Church' (Matt. xviii. 15-17). . . . If then I am to accuse him before the Church, I must collect the Church together. . . .Therefore when need requires, and the Pope is a cause of offence to Christendom, in these cases whoever can best do so, as a faithful member of the whole body, must do what he can to procure a true free council.

Finance Guy said...

evenbmwtt..
They give an invitation, people walk the aisle, and Bellevue has it`s long foot out to trip them at the alter.

How sad, but this is exactly the picture I'm getting. Pastor Steve is so anxious to reach the "unchurched" (lost), that he will implement whatever new "tool" devised by man to reach the "modern world", all the while, seemingly oblivious to the fact that he is pastor of an increasingly shallow and carnal congregation, that is probably so chock-full of unsaved (but not "unchurched"), that he could fulfill the Great Commission within the four walls of our church!

Do we really need more evidence of this than what has been revealed over the last week?

I understand what Jesus was saying when he refused the rich man's request in Luke 16:19-31 to go back and tell his brethren about the lake of fire.
And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded...

I feel it really doesn't matter how much "evidence" there is that Bellevue is a sick church, the self appointed leadership continues to trumpet the Pollyanna story of "offerings and numbers up (btw, not true)", "People are getting saved" and my favorite given what we were told Sunday "Lives are being changed". You bet lives are being changed...in such a way that at least one young man is facing years of therapy to recover from his "life changing experience".

Sick to my stomach

Anonymous said...

cjesusnme,

Thanks.

ezekiel said...

bwtt, 25yrs...

This looks particularly relevant today. If we remain so backsliden as to accept a sermon comparing the compassion shown to Mary, the mother of Jesus by Joseph, (instructed by an angel) to the compassion due a child molester/rapist/sodomizer what is left but God's judgement.

Is Paul ashamed? Apparently not enough or he would have resigned. Is Steve Gaines ashamed, apparently not, He allowed Paul to continue in his job as a minister for 6 months and them defends Paul and his own decision with a tortured twisting of scripture.

Jer8:5 Why [then] is this people of Jerusalem slidden back by a perpetual backsliding? they hold fast deceit, they refuse to return.

8:6 I hearkened and heard, [but] they spake not aright: no man repented him of his wickedness, saying, What have I done? every one turned to his course, as the horse rusheth into the battle.

8:7 Yea, the stork in the heaven knoweth her appointed times; and the turtle and the crane and the swallow observe the time of their coming; but my people know not the judgment of the LORD.

8:8 How do ye say, We [are] wise, and the law of the LORD [is] with us? Lo, certainly in vain made he [it]; the pen of the scribes [is] in vain.

8:9 The wise [men] are ashamed, they are dismayed and taken: lo, they have rejected the word of the LORD; and what wisdom [is] in them?

8:10 Therefore will I give their wives unto others, [and] their fields to them that shall inherit [them]: for every one from the least even unto the greatest is given to covetousness, from the prophet even unto the priest every one dealeth falsely.

8:11 For they have healed the hurt of the daughter of my people slightly, saying, Peace, peace; when [there is] no peace.

8:12 Were they ashamed when they had committed abomination? nay, they were not at all ashamed, neither could they blush: therefore shall they fall among them that fall: in the time of their visitation they shall be cast down, saith the LORD.

8:13 I will surely consume them, saith the LORD: [there shall be] no grapes on the vine, nor figs on the fig tree, and the leaf shall fade; and [the things that] I have given them shall pass away from them.

8:14 Why do we sit still? assemble yourselves, and let us enter into the defenced cities, and let us be silent there: for the LORD our God hath put us to silence, and given us water of gall to drink, because we have sinned against the LORD.

8:15 We looked for peace, but no good [came; and] for a time of health, and behold trouble!

8:16 The snorting of his horses was heard from Dan: the whole land trembled at the sound of the neighing of his strong ones; for they are come, and have devoured the land, and all that is in it; the city, and those that dwell therein.

8:17 For, behold, I will send serpents, cockatrices, among you, which [will] not [be] charmed, and they shall bite you, saith the LORD.

8:18 [When] I would comfort myself against sorrow, my heart [is] faint in me.

8:19 Behold the voice of the cry of the daughter of my people because of them that dwell in a far country: [Is] not the LORD in Zion? [is] not her king in her? Why have they provoked me to anger with their graven images, [and] with strange vanities?

8:20 The harvest is past, the summer is ended, and we are not saved.

8:21 For the hurt of the daughter of my people am I hurt; I am black; astonishment hath taken hold on me.

8:22 [Is there] no balm in Gilead; [is there] no physician there? why then is not the health of the daughter of my people recovered?

Finance Guy said...

25+
Very timely quote. You should keep in mind that Martin Luther's actions did not result in a "reforming" of the Catholic church. It resulting in a splitting off. Many people rejected Luther, continued to buy into the lie of the Romanists of the day, and it still exisists (although in much weaker form) to this day.

I'm just not sure if that's not what's going to happen here is all.

Also, am I the only one who disagrees that we need to Personnel polices to handle something like this? That sounds like a "blanket" that's being used to cover up and excuse the fact that our church does not in fact practice what it preaches. That is we do not follow the Scripture in running our church. (Read Romans 1 for further clarification...professing godliness, but denying the power there of).

How about this for a personnel policy?

1)deal with sin according to the Bible.
2)People guilty of gross immorality are not to be in positions of leadership and example. Period, no exceptions.

What else to we need?

Robert Winthrop, descendant of famous Pilgrim & Governor John Winthrop, made this profound statement:
...Men, in a word, must necessarily be controlled, . . . either by the word of God, or by the strong arm of man; either by the Bible, or by the bayonet...

When we don't follow God's Word, that's when we have to develop all these "policies and procedures".

I sat in a Bible Study once under Bob Fargason (One of Bruce Brooke's law partners) where he lamented how Man seeks to write contracts to bind other men, and then turn around and try to get out of those very contracts!

If we (man) develop rules and procedures, man can devise ways to circumvent those same rules.

To Bryan Miller,
We didn't have written polices and procedures under Dr. Rogers because they weren't needed because HE FOLLOWED GOD'S WORD TO THE LETTER. You only need them now because we have a pastor who apparently lacks a moral compass to guide his actions as pastor.

How low we have sunk.

Anonymous said...

Psalm 43:3

Thanks for the gentle reminder about the need for prayer for the current Bellevue Staff.

There are many, many Godly people still on staff who know that what is going on is wrong and are deeply grieving. I know they find it difficult to come into work each day and face our Pastor. Please we must pray for them as the try to continue on in this darkest hour.

Tim said...

I would like to put something in perspective, just for the record.

There are detractors that post here and most of us are well aware of who they are. However, there are many new readers who will not go back and try to figure out who the detractors are. By simply choosing to ignore them, we give credibility to their ridiculous statements. We have a responsibility to respond in truth to some of this and a bit of humor in the process can serve a purpose.

It should also serve to be a light to others that may have the same views as to how absurd some of these arguments are. If we are not intent on confronting anyone, then we should pack it up and head to another church. There will be much more formidable opponents to confront in the future and some of these detractors are giving us great insight into their reasoning and thought processes. It may seem to be a waste of time because we are not going to change their minds, however there is a purpose in understanding them. That purpose is to know in the future where the lines have been drawn in the sand.

Anonymous said...

Amen Ezekiel.

I have a dream...

That a time will come at Bellevue when sin will be treated as sin...

That a time will come at Bellevue when the pastor will have time to answer questions from the congregation in a real business meeting instead of having self-serving informational meetings...

That a time will come at Bellevue when the pastor will be accountable to the congregation...

That a time will come at Bellevue when there will be a new set of bylaws that will provide checks and balances on the power of the pastor's office, will treat the office of deacon scripturally, and will address the concerns of power plays among members of the laity...

That a time will come at Bellevue when ministers who serve the church will be dealt with scripturally when they sin in a disqualifying way...

That a time will come at Bellevue when ministers who serve the church well for years will be able to speak freely from the heart with joy about their years at Bellevue without having to sign non-disclosure statements...

That a time will come at Bellevue when many of the discerning christians who have left will return to help with Bellevue's restoration...

That a time will come at Bellevue when "We are one in the bond of love..." will be sung from the heart by all present with beaming faces...

That a time will come at Bellevue when the heaviness of this day will be lifted and this time of contention will be a distant memory...

Anonymous said...

I would like to say I appreciate how genuine and respectful most of you see to be.

I will give you a little bit of where my personal feelings on this as far as where I come from and why I say I believe that there must be a better way... (I have changed a tiny bit of this info to protect my family-they are easily identifiable and I don't want to put them on display)

My stepmother is unsaved. The rest of my family as well as my husband, son and I all attend Bellevue. For years we have prayed for this woman who was raised to hate religion and has resisted God all her life. Over the years I have seen her heart slowly soften as she sees God work in our lives. But this current situation has sent her right back to church hatred. All she sees is the hatefulness, division, and others exposing people's sins to the world.
I know that is not the intent of anyone here, but you must be careful in your actions.

I believe in the great commission and believe that we have a responsibility to always be mindful of the impact we are having on the people around us who may not have a strong faith or any faith at all.

Please stand up for what you believe in- I am not trying to defend this man or his actions. But I also know that if most of our lives were put under a microscope and judged by men we would be found unworthy to serve God. Should someone who had an abortion be banned from working with children or counseling unwed mothers? Someone who had premarital sex banned from counseling couples? Or someone who got into large amounts of debt not be allowed to counsel people on their finances? Sometimes you can learn more from someone who has made the mistakes before you than someone that has never struggled in the area you need help with.

I will also say that sexual abuse is something that is very real to me. It has taken me many years to come to this point but if the abuser that I know was helping bring people to Christ, as long as he was living his life as an open book and not putting himself in the path of temptation I would have no problem with that.

I am not saying that we should just allow anyone to be on staff who wants to. I don't think that it is wise or prudent to let someone work in an area where they could be tempted. Perhaps he should be removed- but I will say that letters in the churches were referencing people who were currently engaging in these sins.

I don't know the answer here. If it were my decision to make I would need a lot more information. I do have faith that even though there will be some missteps along the way most of the people in charge at Bellevue have a true desire for Gods agenda for our church and not their own.

Anonymous said...

Repost from anothter thread:

Kicked in the gut! said...
Hello Bellevue,

I have been in the stands watching this conflict for months. I can remain silent no longer.

More than twenty-five years ago I was repeatedly victimized by a family member. I vividly remember his warm breath on my neck, the odor of beer stinging my nostrils. I remember the scratch of his whiskers on my innocent face. Members of my family knew about this and did nothing. They remained silent and to this day refuse to openly discuss it. I was often left in this man’s care so my mother could go on dates and spend weekend with friends. My own mother enabled my abuse! This same man victimized others in my family as well. The Lord has strengthened me and has helped me lead a normal life in spite of what happened to me. His other victims have not been so lucky. I know first hand the heartache of incest. God can heal you, but you never forget. It is with me every day of my life. Incest ruins lives. It ruins families, usually for generations.

A few years ago I volunteered to serve in Bellevue’s nursery. As part of the screening process I admitted I was the victim of child sexual abuse, so I was asked to counsel with a Bellevue minister. I willingly submitted to the requested counseling. I told this man what happened to me in detail. He prayed for me and he described the tremendous efforts of Bellevue to prevent child molesters from accessing our children. I felt good knowing what our church was doing and it reassured me my own children were safe.

I have learned the identity of the child molester at Bellevue. I have learned the very man I counseled with is himself a pedophile. I cannot describe the anger I feel right now. I am grief stricken when I remember my counseling session with this “man of God.” He asked for intimate details. I thought it was strange at the time, but I answered him fully. What was he thinking about while I described my childhood terror? I was forced to relive my experience in front of a man who probably enjoyed what I told him. I call that spiritual rape! Am I the only one this happened to?

Bellevue, regardless of how you feel about any other issue in this conflict, please unite to condemn our church’s actions. This accused pedophile still works for Bellevue today! I have lost all respect for our pastor and anyone else who helped hide this man’s sin. I know the pain that I experienced when my family ‘looked the other way’ and kept silent. My heart breaks for the victims of this minister. I grieve for the additional pain heaped on them by those who knew and did nothing. The pastor and all of this man’s protectors must leave our church NOW!

Some of you have screamed “touch not mine anointed.” What are we to do when “mine anointed” have touched us?

1:31 PM, December 15, 2006

Anonymous said...

bepatient...

please read the repost above.

Karen said...

be patient said ...

Please stand up for what you believe in- I am not trying to defend this man or his actions. But I also know that if most of our lives were put under a microscope and judged by men we would be found unworthy to serve God. Should someone who had an abortion be banned from working with children or counseling unwed mothers? Someone who had premarital sex banned from counseling couples? Or someone who got into large amounts of debt not be allowed to counsel people on their finances? Sometimes you can learn more from someone who has made the mistakes before you than someone that has never struggled in the area you need help with.


You have a valid point about learning from someone who's "been there". Unfortunately, the examples you give of abortion, premarital sex and bad finance handling are not illegal although they are sin. Molestation of a child is both.

Karen

Finance Guy said...

bepatient
unfortunatly, I see your comments as symtomatic of the "he who is without sin.." and "we are all sinners, so we ought to ignore it and just accept people as people" mentality creeping in our culture and church.

A minister of the gospel is held to a higher standard than laypeople. Scripture is clear on that. Infact, it's my understand that (at least today) if you have a divorce in your past, you cannot serve as a deacon or minister at Bellevue. We ask our deacons to refrain from "questionable amusements", as well as alcohol and tobacco use. We ask our deacons to be examples, especially in tithing (even though that is supposed to be private).

What PW did would get you fired from most private companies. Why should he be allowed to remain a minister of the gospel, a leader in the church who is responsible for "setting the tone" of the congregation?

(so whiplashed by all this not sure I can think straight)

Tim said...

25+,

Absolutely! It is imperative that folks get down off the fence and plant their feet firmly on this issue. If the unsaved see us waiver on this issue then what will identify us from anything else on earth. Nothing!

Your dream of our church is beautiful and it is a dream of victory, but that victory will not come without a battle. That battle will not be fought without soldiers. It is time to report for duty and be counted, our Commander in Chief has called us to attention to lead us into battle. If we neglect the Word of God at this point then it may never be regained.

Anonymous said...

Amen Tim.

Anonymous said...

bepatient,

I pray that your stepmother's heart is not so hardened that she makes the right decision soon but she is responsible as we all are for our choices we make in life. God gives us all free will.

I ask that you consider why we are having this discussion to begin with. You have to start somewhere with truth being the determining factor in your thinking.

As a result of men in leadership making the wrong choices months and years ago, we find ourselves where we are today. Does that mean that we justify what they are doing by asking everyone to just pray about it and let God deal with it when God has let us realize right from wrong. Do you think God wants us to turn out back on righteousness?

Unfortunately, the consequences of sin are devastating. It reaches out with its long tentacles across a multitude of people. Some sin carries on for generations. Sin left unchecked will continue to grow like a cancer and effect people's lives exponentially.

This is why it's so important to nip things like this early and decisively before the snowball gets rolling. The church is so critically important we can't ignore leadership that's not operating under God's Word.

Finance Guy said...

goodness
I just read your kind words on the previous thread.
I don't know if I'm having emotional response right now, or if God is giving me a reason to stay.
You are right in making sure that God is guiding my actions. I don't want my kids to one day be having sex in church bathrooms during an I2 concert, because I didn't want to give up my comfy little life.
Sick, Sick, Sick

Anonymous said...

Tim,

I have a sling-shot and five stones. Where do I sign-up?

Anonymous said...

I will say one final thing. Everyone is making a lot of assumptions about what I believe and where I stand on this issue and others. I will say that I am on the fence- because I believe is very dangerous to plant your self somewhere with another person speaking for you in a situation like this. I will remain an active member of Bellevue. I believe there is still much good being done in spite of the things that are bad. I will pray that God will give me a spirit of wisdom and a willingness to take any action I need to. But I am relying on my personal relationship with God to navigate me through this and not the words of someone else. I have very firm opinions on everything that has happened. But my thoughts on it are not black and white just as the issues are not black and white.
We have a responsibility to help our church be as close to a Biblical model as humanly possible. But there are many many factors and verses in the Bible that define a church and the people in it. We must approach this with patience and forgiveness. These are human beings that are in charge.

I DO NOT want you to mistake my words and say I think you should blindly forgive and ignore. I think we should face each of these issues with a heart that is ready to forgive and an empathy for others and take action from there.

I think that these events mark a sad day for our church.

But automatically condemning every action that is made is just as dangerous as blindly accepting everything that happens.

Finance Guy said...

But automatically condemning every action that is made is just as dangerous as blindly accepting everything that happens.
Bepatient,
I don't think that's what is happening. We are just becoming increasingly jaded and cynical at the seemingly never-ending "mistakes of the head". Or as some might say, poor judgment.

Finance Guy said...

ace
...And I don't like Kool-Aid...I prefer Dr. Pepper. Do you mind if I slip a little of that in your drinks?

I like Dr. P. I'd love the opportunity to sit down and drink one with you.

Anonymous said...

financeguy said:

"We are just becoming increasingly jaded and cynical at the seemingly never-ending "mistakes of the head". Or as some might say, poor judgment."

Some might say that 'poor judgement' stems from a complete lack of integrity.

Custos said...

Tim and Nass, please check your mail and call me asap. My number is in the email.

Josh

Karen said...

custos,

did you just get the email I got?

karen

Bepatient said...

God does not call us to have a spirit of cynicism. When you let your anger and frustration take over you can become just as much of a detriment to the integrity of our church as those you strike out against.

Someone mentioned the fruits of the spirit earlier....

love, joy, peace, patience, goodness, long-suffering, faithfulness, kindness, and self control

I think is is wise to reflect on each of these whenever you speak about this very serious situation.

I will go back to my first post and encourage everyone here to spend their energy trying to find a solution instead of complaining. Perhaps savingbellevue and this forum would be a more powerful positive force if you used it to bring people together for times of community prayer, fasting, or brainstorming for ways to help. Just a suggestion.
I hope that each step of this journey will bring each of you to a more powerful relationship with Christ.

Anonymous said...

Since I was labeled as having low moral values on a previous blog, I want to make it clear. I do not think a man should be working as a minister who is a child molester.

I also wonder what the laws in TN say about firing someone for their actions of 17 years ago. Is it that cut and dry that they can be fired for offenses occuring that long ago? This is just a question and maybe a possibility as to why it took 6 months for them to do something.

Finance Guy said...

I also wonder what the laws in TN say about firing someone for their actions of 17 years ago.

If you listened closely to what the pastor said yesterday, it's not clear we are talking about just "actions of 17 years ago."

This could have been going on a lot more recent than that. Apparently the family didn't think the actions were "resolved" 17 years ago...whatever that means.

Finance Guy said...

Karen
You Got Mail

Anonymous said...

Financeguy, I am only going by what has been admitted too. I certainly know of no other incidents, and I pray there are none, but since that is the consensus that it did in fact happen 17 years ago, that is what prompted my question.

Karen said...

finance,

Have not received any email from you - did you get mine?

karen

Anonymous said...

Memphis,

in TN you can fire someone and not even give them a reason. So far as TN state law is concerned, WTB made the correct observation that the standard of ministerial judgment in such matters is not the TN code annotated... It's the Bible.

Finance Guy said...

Karen,
Got it.
Thanks,

Anonymous said...

What is deal with Bruce Brooke? Also, if all of you hate the church, then leave. That is what I will do when I get to that point or if I do. Also, does anyone know if Dr Rodgers knew of Paul WIlliams???? And are you saying that a kid was raped by a staff member? Sorry this is my first time to post. I am troubled by this site and some of the things going on.

Billy said...

Is this Paul Williams the man I know as, "Mr. Paul" that worked in the 2 year old nursery / Sunday School?

david S said...

I find it interesting that Brian Millar does acknowledge that the pastor does preach sermons to “prepare” hearts for coming news.

“God could not have given our pastor a better message to prepare our hearts for uh, what we are going to share with you.”

So sermons aren’t so divorced from the church situation.

Anonymous said...

bothered,

I don't know of anyone posting here who hates Bellevue. You have a little reading to catch up on. Welcome. Please understand that if everyone just leaves who disagrees with leadership, then there will never be any corrective for leadership that is headed in the wrong way. If this blog had not brought this stuff to light then it would still be the case that Bellevue would have a confessed pedophile as a seior minister.

No Dr. Rogers did not know about it.

Go to the main page of this blog and read the introduction to the last thread regarding the rape question.

I am glad you are troubled, but don't leave. Stay and help your church heal and reform.

Anonymous said...

Great observation David...

It seems that it Sunday's sermon was a parable after all...

jmo

Anonymous said...

Let me express my sorrow over the struggles at BBC. Before his passing, Pastor Rogers was a real blessing to me.

From what I understand, things have really taken a bad turn since his passing. My prayers are for you, even as I type this, and that the Lord would help everything be brought to light and exposed and dealt with according to God's Word.

Again, my thoughts and concerns are with you.

Anonymous said...

Billy,

Many are now concerned that he may have substituted in children's areas. He was the minister put in charge of the records for children's workers. He taught one Bible Fellowship hour, but he may have substituted or helped out in those areas the other hour. I can assure you that many parents would be interested in the answer to that question.

Are you saying that you remember him teaching two year olds?

Anonymous said...

bepatient said:
I will go back to my first post and encourage everyone here to spend their energy trying to find a solution instead of complaining. Perhaps savingbellevue and this forum would be a more powerful positive force if you used it to bring people together for times of community prayer, fasting, or brainstorming for ways to help. Just a suggestion.

response:
The people on this blog are trying to be part of the solution. If you go back and read the past several months, you will find a call for Steve Gaines and various other leaders to resign. This will be the start of the healing process and getting Bellevue Baptist Church back on the right track.

Everyone I know on this blog loves Jesus and loves His church.

Anonymous said...

Let me express my sorrow over the struggles at BBC. Before his passing, Pastor Rogers was a real blessing to me.

From what I understand, things have really taken a bad turn since his passing. My prayers are for you, even as I type this, and that the Lord would help everything be brought to light and exposed and dealt with according to God's Word.

Again, my thoughts and concerns are with you.

Karen said...

swtt,

Glad to see you - hadn't seen you in awhile.

Karen

Anonymous said...

25+yrs@BBC,
I've only been at Bellevue for a couple of years and I don't know Paul Williams. When my daughter her teacher was a man that we all called, "Mr. Paul". I have no idea whether or not this is the same man. But I can tell you that there was a man, that was regularly in charge of 2 year olds named, "Mr. Pail".

Karen said...
This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
Anonymous said...

Karen, is this some type of media release?

Karen said...

memphis,

I don't know - I just got it in an email and she said I could share.

Anonymous said...

I cannot find the information about Bruce Brooke? Also, I see an alleged rape but not anything about ages or where? I guess my thoughts are if you cannot any longer worship God at the Church, then why stay? Different perspective. I have not been on the site much because I felt like it was a bunch of Steve haters. This site has alot of hateful tones on it. We need to pray for all these involved.

Anonymous said...

Bothered...

We love truth and we hate sin...

In that respect you are right.

Anonymous said...

No Paul Williams never taught in the preschool or children's areas.

He was not a teacher of the 2yrs that you are asking about.

Anonymous said...

I heard that the alleged rape was between two teenagers. It supposedly happened on Saturday but the party involved didn't tell her parents or anyone until Tuesday. They then reported it.

Anonymous said...

No rumors please,

Since you seem to know...

Did he substitute in the childrens area(s)?

«Oldest ‹Older   1 – 200 of 309   Newer› Newest»