Wednesday, December 13, 2006

Apologies and Forgiveness

We've heard a lot about forgiveness recently, and we've heard apologies from several people. I'd like to discuss just a couple of these here. A topic was started a few weeks ago regarding a conversation between staff minister Doyal Long and Pam Gremillion. Mrs. Gremillion gave a detailed description of that conversation which is available from a link in that topic heading. (Check the November archives for "Conduct Becoming a Minister?")

A few days after that topic was started, we received the wonderful news that Minister Long paid an unexpected visit to the Gremillions for the purpose of apologizing to them for things he said to Mrs. Gremillion during a phone call she made to the church two days earlier. The Gremillions explain in their own words what happened during this visit.

Praise the Lord! This is most assuredly conduct becoming a minister! I am heartened by Mr. Long's ability to recognize that his words were hurtful to the Gremillions and his willingness to ask their forgiveness quickly and face to face and that he and the Gremillions are now fully reconciled in Christ.

It was my hope that this is a sign that some of those in leadership positions at Bellevue are beginning to realize that many of the sheep they're supposed to be shepherding are hurting and scattered. Could this represent just a glimmer of hope that they are finally hearing the sheep?

In the morning service on December 3rd, Brother Steve apologized to the congregation for the way he'd handled three things -- the "retirement" of Brother Jim Whitmire, the Gardendale remarks on July 10, 2006, and the Union City remarks on September 25, 2006.

I accept his apology for the last two things, but I and many others still have doubts about the first. Dr. Gaines' version of what happened and accounts from the Whitmire family about what happened at that meeting in November 2005 still differ greatly.

Read his apology here.

The Whitmire family has requested that their account of the apology not be published here, so in deference to their wishes I am honoring their request. Suffice it to say their account differed significantly from Steve Gaines' description. I will reveal this: After everyone had spoken, Steve Gaines reportedly angrily slammed his palms down on his desk, then raised both hands in an "I surrender" gesture and yelled, "Okay! I'm sorry!" So, technically, I guess he "apologized."

Please try to keep this thread "on topic" and use the General Discussion threads for other topics of discussion.

261 comments:

1 – 200 of 261   Newer›   Newest»
Anonymous said...

Nass,

Very well put on the front page, you kept the main thing the main thing.

Instead of discussing various topics you nailed it down to one. (no sarcasm)

Custos said...

Regarding Dr Gaines apology: Perhaps a bit of a gulf between the Letter of the Law and the Spirit of the Law?

Further, had I been in Dr Gaines shoes two Sundays ago, I believe I'd have made sure Harry Smith made no comments that evening that could be in any way construed as condemning of the sheep he had just apologized to. Harry Smith basically, however, did just that and said what amounted to, "Well, Dr Gaines may have made a few mistakes, but you guys did too."

I believe Harry was dancing closely with moral equivalence.

Finance Guy said...

It occurred to me that some may read this and decide that the Whitmires were being petty and lacked humility for being offended that they weren't properly honored.
You should keep in mind that this was the "last straw" in the disrespectful attitude that Pastor Steve had exhibited toward the Whitmires, even before he (SG) had shown up at Bellevue. I'm sure there are people on here who know the specifics, and in my opinion they don't really need to be discussed in the open. It's sufficient to know that that this offense was icing on the cake.

However, none of us should be surprised that Pastor Steve would have a dim view of the Whitmires. His apology not withstanding, he did have a view of Bellevue, which came from his own lips, that we were "doing things wrong". Jamie has apologized to the choir for saying this, but he did indicate when he came that he didn't think Bellevue knew how to worship. I'll accept their apologies at face value, but at least at that time, this is how the Steve/Jamie duo felt about the Worship service in general, assumable Dr. Whitmire, since he was the Worship leader.

Whatever Pastor Steve’s good qualities are, people skills are not among them. It’s interesting to see who his ‘favorites” appear to be on staff, and it’s staff members who also lack people skills.
(sitting on my hands before I say more)

Finance Guy said...

custos,
There has been a tremendous amount of "I may be a sinner but so are you", (or as the kindergarten taunt puts it,"I know you are but what am I?".)
This has been coming from the 'usual suspects' in the lay leadership, as well as from staff ministers.
This combined with the "ends justifies the means" attitude, exhibits some dangerous thinking (IMO) on the part of church leadership.
This sort of thinking could possibly lead in the future to senior staff ministers admitting to very serious immorality, and being allowed to continue to serve on staff. I know that would never happen now, but it could....

Karen said...

Steve Gaines lied from the pulpit and broke the law (remember the itty bitty fence?) - when are people going to wake up and see these 2 things are just the tip of the iceberg that's gonna sink Bellevue Baptist Church. I will go to the grave thinking Steve Gaines and the leadership that protects him have done terrible, irreparable harm to us a church body and to us as a non-profit organization. Please people! Get everyone you know to read this blog and pray that their eyes will be opened to the truth.

Karen

Karen said...

financeguy,

You have email. Karen

Anonymous said...

There seem to be a lot of 'apologies' going around these days that include the phrase "I'm sorry if you were offended".

Apology 101 would teach us that a sincere apology does not include the words -"if you were offended"

That being said. Forgiveness does not require an apology from the one who offended. We are to forgive. Period. Forgiveness is a choice and is more for our own good than for the the one being forgiven.

Finance Guy said...

lucy
I noticed that as well. All his apoligizing is "qualified". It's almost like "I don't think I did anything wrong, but if you do, then I'm sorry". Not very Biblical. Pastor Steve understands this. In fact, he told the deacons that the only apology he would accept from Mark Sharpe would have to be without and "If" or "but" qualifications. Sounds like Pastor holds himself to a different standard.
(I'll just ignore the fact that I don't understand what MS has to apologize for. It's not like he climbed over Steve Gaines fence and showed up at his house unannounced in the middle of the night or something.)

Custos said...

Great observation, Lucy.

I think the "If I offended you" qaulifier is akin to saying, "I'm sorry you took it that way." The implication there clearly being that the fault is ultiamtely in the overly sensative offended, not the offender (aka innocent victim of circumstance). In some cases I think qualifiers like that nullify the original statements they're attached too--effectivly making the apology mean nothing at all.

Anonymous said...

Finace guy

You have mail

cjesusnme said...

My thoughts in all of this, especially the two apologies after his explanation with the Whitmires is this: I know for a fact that he "misrepresented" the truth in the least (my mom always taught me that was called a lie!), so the other two apologies didn't hold a lot of truth either. I don't feel that ANY of his apologies have truly been heartfelt. Kind of like getting his hand caught in the cookie jar--I think he's sorry he got caught and just doing damage control! Probably being advised from some high powered attorney out of state or something!

I'm sick of all the questioning about this and that....People wake up.....the lack on integrity from the pulpit speaks volumes about EVERYTHING else going on behind the doors at BBC! That is the worst part of all of this THE LACK OF INTEGRITY OF OUR PASTOR!

Bellevue Friend said...

What should have happened.

As a Pastor let me begin by saying, that when going to a new field of service it is critical to observe, and walk with your new congregation with loving caution. I have long since learned that I am (As the Senior Pastor) not necessarily the most spiritual person in attendance! ( Smileing)

Newly arriving ministers must take time to walk with God’s people, to celebrate their past, and sadly in your case grieve the deep loss of Dr. Rogers’s departure … (To be with Christ which is better by far)

Before I get to the heart of what I want to say I want to reiterate, what I think of Bellevue.

I want you all to know that Adrian Rogers was and always will be my hero.

I thought that Ken Whitten’s comments at Dr. Rogers’s funeral, was spot on, and He said what my heart felt. When I heard him, I thought he should be the one to succeed Dr. Rogers.

I cannot possibly imagine Dr. Whitten (If Called to Bellevue) not spending time with Dr. Rogers, learning at the feet of the one who walked with you and Bellevue for 32 years!

May I say if I had been called to Bellevue, the Roger’s would have had to change their number and move…because I would have been over so much!

I have no idea how much Dr. Gaines spent with Dr. Rogers, but to neglect that opportunity (If it was in fact neglected) is simply unthinkable.

If spending every second you could with Dr. Rogers would put your best foot forward as the new Pastor of Bellevue , the second most important thing, and What Should have happened is to honor Dr. Whitmire!

I mean seriously, the man is incredibly gifted and no one knows where the landmines are at Bellevue better than he does.

He walked with Dr. Rogers through the most thrilling years of advancement Bellevue has ever seen!

If God had sent me, and yes I know he didn’t and so why speculate…but I am telling you from my heart I would have invested all the time I could, building a relationship with him…..and I would have pleaded for him not to retire, and please, Jim walk with me into this new beginning and retire if God leads you too…Jim when He wants you to!

Ken Whitten wasn’t called, I certainly was not sent your way, but I will always believe that when it came to succeeding one of God’s choicest saints in Dr. Rogers…whoever came….this is what should have happened!

Finance Guy said...

bellevue friend
There is so much I could say in response, but true, a lot of us are mystified by the reports of disrespect on the part of SG toward Dr. Rogers.

Many of you may be familier with the saying "If "if's" and "buts", were candy and nuts, we'd have Christmas every day".

No point in speculating on "what might have been's". What's done is done.

youwillknowthem said...

Aside from the lack of truth, apologies that are mitigated by explanations and qualifications are particularly odious. I never allowed my children to include “if” or “but” in an apology. My children and my children’s children are being taught just that by Mr. Gains. Some home shepherding opportunities have appeared to us.

cjesusnme said...

Bellevue Friend...

AMEN! Very well put! I agree wholeheartedly, but instead we get SG with his attitude that He's good enough (or perhaps better than with his comments of He's gonna teach us how to become a praying church) without the guidance of Dr. Rogers. I think we all knew what a jewel we had in Dr. Rogers and knew that it would be almost impossible finding someone to fill his shoes, but I never dreamed it would come to this. I hurt for the entire Rogers family! He was just my pastor and I feel hurt for all of the things being done so quickly after Dr. Rogers retirement and death, but I can only imagine the pain they must suffer.

To the leadership at Bellevue........DO YOU NOT SEE THE OBVIOUS HERE? WAKE UP AND SMELL THE COFFEE! READ THE WORDS OF BELLEVUE FRIEND AND SEE WHAT OTHERS ARE SAYING! You may want to pinch those pennies too because those tithes are getting fewer and fewer unless some of the bigpocket men you are surrounded by are putting in the plate. The sheep are scattering and so is their tithes. I won't leave, but others have, but you won't see me in worship....just in my bible fellowship class where I know I can hear the truth!

Karen said...

bellevuefriend! AMEN! There are alot of "shouldas" but what can we do now?

We were a hurting people when Dr. Rogers died and here comes this bulldozer in the form of a new pastor and his "henchman" ready to change everything. There's a really good article on savingbellevue.com about "culture crashing" and that's exactly what happened. We had no transition period in which to recover from the retirement of Dr. Rogers, his death then the loss of our Dr. Whitmire. We were (and still are) stinging from those things then Dr. Gaines began changing everything with seemingly no regard for the people who were hurting. The response from the leadership to anyone who questioned the changes was "if you don't like it, leave". WOW! Another stinger! How would you feel? Try drinking from a wide open fire hose - you may get an inkling of how we felt. (This is not my original methaphor - I borrowed this from SW&W)

Karen

Bellevue Friend said...

Karen,

When you asked what can we do now.

I was reminded of a woman who was very sick, and she asked the Doctor “Is there anything that can be done” He replied, you can pray! She said has it come to that!

(Smiling)

But Prayer as Dr Rogers once said: though it will not get you everything you want, it will get you everything God wants you to have!

Praying for you! And for what God wants for Bellevue!

WOUNDEDANDBLEEDING said...
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WOUNDEDANDBLEEDING said...
This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
WOUNDEDANDBLEEDING said...

Dear Ones,

Greetings to you in the healing name of Jesus!

I just wanted to encourage all who love Pastor Steve and clearly see that he is on the wrong path, to write to him personally and let him know that you care about his soul!

Let him know that the love you have for Jesus extends to him!

Let him know that the reason you care so deeply about these unresolved issues are directly related to the love you have for Jesus and for him as a brother in Christ and for Christ`s Spotless Bride!

You can write to him at
sgaines@bellevue.org

And while we`re at it, let`s write to our other brethren in leadership who have engaged in unChRISTlike behavior and blemished Christ`s Beautiful Bellevue.

We could even send a sincere CHRISTmas card to each one of these brothers with a letter enclosed sharing our concerns mingled with our love.

Maybe some will want to encourage their little children to write to some of them as well and make pictures for them that express how important it is for truth to shine constantly before them. Our four daughters will be doing this.

Those of you who are not members of our church, could also write to them!

Let`s give them a LOVE SHOWER and bathe all of them in Truth and love for CHRISTmas!

Under HIS wings and in HIS love,
Sister Pam

Karen said...

bellevuefriend,

I agree - I have been way short on prayer where this whole situation is concerned. I think a lot of people are realizing this fact in their own lives as well. I'm ashamed to admit, but I never once prayed for the Search Committee - so I guess my lesson is "be carefule what you ask for (or don't ask for) because you just might get it. God forgive my laxness.

WOUNDEDANDBLEEDING said...

I greet you again in the lovely name of Jesus!

Our daughters are from West Africa and Christmas was never part of their lives until they came to be our daughters.

The first year that our little Blessing Joy was part of our family, she would see these funny looking animals at the barn where we kept our horses, and make funny looking expressions, so Pappa and I would point at the shaggy pasture creatures and say "Goats" over and over to her. with hopes of her learning what they were.

When Christmas time rolled around that year, she heard a song she had never heard before called "Frosty the Snowman" and she would just kick her little legs to the music in such a way to let us know she loved that song! She was too young to sing it but she sure could kick at it!

That song stuck with her and by the next Christmas season, she was humming it all day long but when it came to the part where it said Thumpity, Thump, Thump, she would chime right in and sing but what she would sing went like this:

Thumpity, Thump, Thump
Thumpity, Thump, Thump
Look at that Nasty Goat
(instead of look at Frosty go)!

We laughed and laughed at her new found lyrics and still do!

This year our precious Liberian Jewel is four and a half years old and she has taught her two younger sisters her lyrics to Frosty the Snowman! When they get started we get well entertained!

It`s fun!

It`s sweet!

It`s precious and unique!

BUT it`s incorrect.

If she was misquoting the Bible like she misquotes this song, we would JUMP to correct her for more than one reason.

First we would want her to understand the WORD correctly so she could have the advantage of knowing the right way to walk.

Seondly, this daughter has the ability to greatly influence her younger sisters and they will do what she does, so we would hurry to correct her for their sake.

Pastors have the ability, as we all do, to go astray or sing the wrong song lyrics in life, and they have the ability to greatly influence many as they travel through life and preach the WORD.

A Pastor`s life should match the WORD that he preaches because it is not what we say that shows what we believe, but what we do that proves what we really believe.

The same is true for all of us and we should all learn to appreciate and love personal accountablilty and those the LORD places in our path to be part of holding us accountable.

Love does not overlook a brother or sister in sin but lovingly offers a hand to help those who have fallen to get back up again and join the race of faith.

Where there is a true lack of accountability there is a true lack of Love.

May the true meaning of Love be manifested to those who do not love their fellow sojourners enough to keep them accountable.

@Just for Jesus Ministries

Anonymous said...

I was always taught that it is not my job to judge how genuine an apology is, it is my responsibility to accept it and forgive. If the actions after that still create bad vibes, then you deal with those, but you do not keep rehashing the same arguments over and over again.

I am not sure what you guys want from the preacher. First you want an apology, so he does that, then it is not geniuine enough, then it is his preaching and you do not get anything out of it (which I always heard you only get out of a service what you put in, meaning the frame of mind), then it was the music has changed ( I do not see that much of a difference from before Jamie actually), then we went to donuts being sold, to musicians, to security, the bylaws were thrown in the mix at somepoint, back to the fence jumping, and now back to apologies.

I understand we all miss Dr. Rogers, he was great and I am not speaking bad of him, but no matter who came in after him, we will never get anothe Pastor Rogers!

So far the only valid issue (which covers many, many things on here) is that the bylaws should be updated. Much of this stuff went on before Gaines!

I am not trying to be a funny, mean spirited or anything else, but honest.

If someone asked me what was on this blog, waht should I tell them based on all the posts???

Karen said...

Sister Pam,

You have again taught me something today. You are so wise and profound - even a child can understand the deeper meaning of your post.

Thanks! Karen

MOM4 said...

flatfoot,
You are missing the point(s) entirely! It is the lies, half-truths, abuse of power and money, AND the by-laws, etc, etc.
Personally, I do not care how many donuts they sell, but I most certainly care if the pastor has questionable character issues! (and this has nothing to do with Dr Rogers other than he taught us better than to "swallow and follow"!

Karen said...

flatfoot,

Please read the 2 links provided at the opening page of this thread on the home page of the blog - you will see the "apology" from the pulpit far differs from the angry "ok, I'm sorry" Dr. Gaines offered the Whitmires. I don't know how you were raised, but I know without a doubt my momma wouldn't consider that an apology - I consider it a temper tantrum by a grown man.

Now don't get me wrong - I have forgiven him for his treatment of Dr. Whitmire, but that was no apology.

By the way, the Whitmire account has never waivered from everyone I've heard it from - from the Whitmires, to my mother, to other choir members. It has never waivered from the absolute truth.

Unfortunately, I cannot say the same about what's printed in the Communications Committee FAQ handout. I cannot find that link anymore on bellevue.org, but I'm sure you've seen the handout.

Karen

Karen said...

woundedandbleeding said...

You can write to him at
sgaines@bellevue.org

FYI, I sent an email and got this back:

The following recipient(s) could not be reached: Gaines, Steve on 12/13/2006 3:20 PM
The e-mail account does not exist at the organization this message was sent to. Check the e-mail address, or contact the recipient directly to find out the correct address.

Anonymous said...

Karen, you know, I have read the account of the office apology, but I of course was not there. I was at the service where he said he handled it wrong and he was sorry. I felt that was a genuine apolgy from the pulpit, regardless of how it went down in the office. In my mind, everyone is asking for apologies involving someone else.

This is just getting tiring, and I think how much time it has taken to read the blog, that I am disappointed in myself that so much of my time is going to this rather than anything else, so after today, I will not be accessing this site anymore, but I hope you all get the desired results you all are after and Bellevue becomes complete.

**I say after today, only because I feel someone will want to tell me how clouded my judgement is, or how blind I am being, and if I write something I will hear the feedback, and not just write and run.

Good luck, and Merry Christmas

Karen said...

FYI, I just called the church and spoke to Linda Glance - she said to send email to her and she will print it out and give it to the pastor. I flat out asked her if she prints out everything as sent and she said yes.

lglance@bellevue.org

Karen

Finance Guy said...

flatfoot,
I'm just glad that Martin Luther, George Washington, Winston Churchill, the Apostle Paul, and many others didn't feel the same way you do.

Anonymous said...

financeguy, me too, and thank you for that remark

CH said...

Karen,

Here's the link you were referring to:

Bellevue Communication Committee

Apparently the site, much like the Committee, has "served its purpose."

cjesusnme said...

Flatfoot said...
"I was always taught that it is not my job to judge how genuine an apology is, it is my responsibility to accept it and forgive. If the actions after that still create bad vibes, then you deal with those, but you do not keep rehashing the same arguments over and over again."

reply:
Flatfoot, another thing we were taught is that if you are truly sorry for your actions, it will show IN your actions after you apologize. I think we are continuing to see more of the same, followed by an apology...see a pattern?

Flatfoot said:
"I am not sure what you guys want from the preacher. First you want an apology, so he does that, then it is not geniuine enough, then it is his preaching and you do not get anything out of it (which I always heard you only get out of a service what you put in, meaning the frame of mind), then it was the music has changed ( I do not see that much of a difference from before Jamie actually), then we went to donuts being sold, to musicians, to security, the bylaws were thrown in the mix at somepoint, back to the fence jumping, and now back to apologies."

reply:
INTEGRITY....I think that's one thing I would love to see in our pastor, be it Steve Gaines or whoever takes his place!

Flatfoot said:
"I understand we all miss Dr. Rogers, he was great and I am not speaking bad of him, but no matter who came in after him, we will never get anothe Pastor Rogers!"

reply:
Agreed! We knew we had a jewel in the Rogers Family and I knew it would be hard but this is like Day and Night and the fact that we all know that he didn't even try to let Dr. Rogers mentor to him and he claimed to think so highly of him......blah, blah, blah.....another half-truth in my book!

Flatfoot said:
"So far the only valid issue (which covers many, many things on here) is that the bylaws should be updated. Much of this stuff went on before Gaines!"

reply:
Agreed....many of these men in leadership were planting the seeds but wouldn't do things so blatant in the presence of Dr. Rogers because they new he wouldn't stand for it! He stood up to the SBC and would stand up to any of them to uphold the word of God! Evil breeds evil and I see it multiplying daily at BBC!

Flatfoot said:
"I am not trying to be a funny, mean spirited or anything else, but honest. If someone asked me what was on this blog, waht should I tell them based on all the posts???"

reply:
I think you should tell them the truth, which is what the blog was started for, for us to get to the truth, because we are not getting there with our leadership! We are members who have been hurt either directly, or indirectly through these few men running our church! Did you understand that? OUR church. Many of these folks have been there LONG before Chuck Taylor, Steve Tucker, Harry Smith, Steve Gaines, or others, and have sacrificed greatly to glorify Christ and bring honor to HIM, not to those men mentioned. Those of us who have made those sacrifices want no part of the kudos for that big fine building at 2000 Appling Road! We know it was not of any doing on our part, but only done through the blood of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ! Just as He has helped build it, he can tear it down and I fear that is what will happen if some people don't wake up and take a stand! It makes me sick at my stomach to think of many of the older members who are hurting now, but feel to weak to share their pain about our church being torn apart! I just pray that those of you who come here and read these posts will not set back and let these people continue to intimidate you! There are many of us, and our numbers are growing daily! We may not ever get our wonderful church back, but we will not continue to let it slip away without a fight and they won't be getting our tithes anymore either! Pray people and let God direct you through his word! God help us all!

Anonymous said...

cjesusname, just a warning, expect some flack from "our church" I understood your meaning though.

Karen said...

No flak here - it's our church building and it's HIS church, not his church - get my meaning?

Please don't give up, flatfoot. This is not about apologies, the issues go much deeper and will all come to light soon. I've taken many breaks from the fight and I feel refreshed anew and am ready to stick it out. Try it - get away from BBC altogether, go get fed on a fresh word from God, fellowship with people with no "agenda" and come back, please? It works!

Karen

moosergs said...

I am tired and confused!!! I don't know what to do or where to worship. The one thing I do know is that it is hard to go into the worship service with SG as our pastor. I believe that many of his sermons are self-serving. I have read another post where someone stated they just went to their Bible fellowship class. I guess thats a good idea. Getting to the point, I do not believe any of SG's apologies are sincere, but that they are self-serving damage control. I do not believe he has a humble bone in his body. Is there any hope that he will be replaced, or are all the blogs and complaining for nothing? I am tired and confused!!!

Anonymous said...

Bellevue's State Charter says>>

Due notice of any election must be given by advertisment in a newspaper, personel notice to the member, or a day stated on the minutes of the Board Of Directors 6 months preceding the election.


There we have it. If you look on savingbellevue.com, under featureed items, then under Church Government, then click on "state charter.

This is what must be referenced concerning "any" election at Bellevue.

If due notice hasn't been given any of the 3 ways stated above, then it has not been handled correct and sould be voided.

This is the language in the Bellevue State Charter that we should enforce.

MOM4 said...

moosergs said...
"I am tired and confused!!! I don't know what to do or where to worship."
We are tired as well, but when you take Karen's advice and get into a good worship service and BFC, begin feeding on God's Word and HE will renew your strenth.
A lot of us go to BFC and then go home and watch Dr Rogers at 11:00. Some attend GBC where Dr Whitmire and Dr Spradlin lead a magnificant worship service. It Works!

Anonymous said...

I'm sorry if you were offended is NOT an apology. Furthermore, it is not apologies we need to hear but confession of sin. Sin needs to be confessed and owned up too, not,"I'm sorry becuase you caught me in a lie or, or if it offended you, I sorry you were offended" sort of thing.

rod Almond-

Custos said...

Amen

phil413 said...

Apologies are generally harder to give than to receive. I'm not so sure that is the case in this instance. One of the principles of the apology that I'm struggling with is the "Gardendale apology". Was the Pastor saying he was sorry for saying BBC needed to be changed, or was he saying he was sorry for making those changes, or is he sorry that we all heard him say what he had planned for us.
I don't know about the rest of you on here but I am a member of the BBC congregation and at no time did I give Harry Smith authorization to apologize on my behalf. I believe he really spoke with no authority when he apologized for the congregation.
Psalm 118:6
David Matlock

allofgrace said...

phil413,
Amen. The night of the 24th is a case in point...2 of the men who needed to apologize weren't even there..on top of that the 2 that were, apologized on behalf of the other 2. By what authority?..and to what good? Sin is personal...confession and asking for forgiveness should be personal..and let me be clear...adding "if" or any other conditions is not an apology.

Anonymous said...

Bellevue Friend

I just read your 11:16 post.

I SO agree about Ken Whitten. I often wonder what he thinks about what is happening to Bellevue (surely he knows?). I could just burst into tears thinking about how different things would have been if he were here! He so loved Bellevue and Dr. Rogers. I doubt he thought we needed to be taught how to pray or how to worship. He would have loved and respected us.
Ken, are you reading this blog? We love you!!!!!!

I feel like a child whose father has died and now suffers at the hands of an abusive stepfather.

Anonymous said...

Piglet said...

"I feel like a child whose father has died and now suffers at the hands of an abusive stepfather."

I feel the same way!!! Since he died, it's like love left our building. Does that make sense to anyone?

ezekiel said...

Yes, and it all started with "if you do not like it leave".

Had the new pastor decided early on that he was indeed a brother, accountable to his congregation, the whole Mark sharp incident would have resulted in an entirely different outcome and the chain of events that have occurred up to this point would not have happened.

All because of pride in the pulpit and deacon body.

By the way, Deut 13:1-6 is an excellent read for today.

Anonymous said...

I strongly suggested for you pastor Steve Gaines to contact peacemaker ministires. Now we will see what he will do. I told him I have heard of churches that split, but never did they say they had peacemaker minstries helping them and were not able to help them. You all at Belleve here keep me posted if you hear that your church is working with them. I don't think he will e-mail me back. I really do have an e-mail address.

Anonymous said...

Sin is both public and personal When you sin against one brother you go to that brother and confess to that person alone. However, sin is most definately public when you sin against the body or it involves more people. Peter and Paul are an example of public chastisement and for a very important reason. Peters behavior affected many people and it was essential to correct him publically. When a brother doesn't repent, or sister, one of the final stages of seeing it through is most definately public confession and public repentence.

rod almond

Anonymous said...

I think that we all are aware that the source of pride is not from God. I think we are all aware that the source of lies is not God. We know confusion is not from God either.

What was said on the Gardendale tape about what sg felt towards Bellevue was true. How do we know that? Because of his actions towards Bellevue since he has been here.

I think many of us were put on alert with revealing statements like "Even you people at Bellevue...."

Much at Bellevue has changed and is still changing and it has only been a year that all these changes have taken place.

The greatest change for me and my family though is the change in spirit at Bellevue. It used to be a spirit of love, reverence and respect for God and the Sheep. Who do you suppose built Bellevue up into the church it was when sg took over? It was the LORD.

Now there is division, anger, mistrust and wondering what is a lie and what is truth. Bullying and arrogance and "if YOU don't like it get used to it!" Sheep getting smacked and threatened from the pulpit by using the Word of God, as a battering ram.

So, what is there to say about the Gardendale tape but, AHA!

ROD ALMOND

Anonymous said...

ROD ALMONDA
as someone else on these discussions said problems at bellevue started long before Gaines. Believe me Bellevue Baptist Church was hurting sheep before Pastor Steve Gaines, now everybody else is feeling hurt. Ezekiel 34 hurts were done to people before S.G.
Just because people have not heard, does not make it not true. Bellevue Baptist church did not change really just now everybody is seeing it. But the person who set up this want the discussion to stay on Apoliges and Forgivenss and this may really be a general discussion.

Anonymous said...

Thank you Mr. Whitmier for your grace and Christian character as well as that fantastic program you put on at MABTS, THE MESSIAH.

The contrast in your behavior to what we have been exposed to gave me faith in the integrity and grace of Christian men, once again. You graciously acknowledged jamie for his being there and taking part in the program. Your gentleness and meekness touched our hearts and confirmed that we recognize right from wrong.

We also noticed that jamie was in the front center row and the only person in the entrie production without a tie. We could not help but wonder if this was because he was the only one who was not informed on how to dress properly or if it was perhaps a statement or rebellion? But if it was rebellion on his part, the contrast was manifest between grace and other.

Rod Almond

Anonymous said...

to noemailaddress

Who is the "everybody else" you refer to in your last missive? I don't understand what you are saying. Also, what is it that people haven't heard until now? Are you refering to Dr. Rogers lieing to people? Are you refering to other pastors of Bellevue using God's Word as a Batteing ram against His sheep? Has it always been policy to buy tickets for "pom=pom, rah! rah!" tickets with the Lords tithes and offerings? Did church leadership always climb over fences posted no trespassing to intimidate a sheep that would not, could not keep silent when he saw things not becoming of any leader, let alone Christian leaders?

Are you telling me all of this was going on before sg and we all just were not aware of it?

rod almond (NO a on the end)

Custos said...

Noemailaddress,

Are you a Bellevue member; and, if so, for how long have you been at Bellevue?

Best,
Josh

Anonymous said...

Peace Makers ministry? Peace comes when sin is confessed and repented of. It is very simple, actually. It takes a dying to self and pride and confession of sin and fellowship is restored.

rod almond

Anonymous said...

While the pastor took a step or two in the right direction there is still a long way to walk... Here are a few important changes that would help during these days of crisis in leadership:

I. Pastoral Accountability to the Congregation:
1. A business meeting in accord with Matthew 18 to deal with the issues that remain related to Mark Sharpe and "the Dream"... and any other loose ends that should have been dealt with months ago!!
2. The giving records of the membership and the ministers on staff at Bellevue should never be for pastoral review in any shape, form, or fashion.
3. No church credit cards.
4. An admission Dr. Gaines should have never given $25k to FUMC and an explanation of policy changes to prevent a repeat.
5. A policy for open books on Holy land trips and no overcharging of members. Free tickets for the host and wife are fine but not for anybody else.
6. Full disclosure of ministerial compensation: salary + benefit breakdown, etc.
7. Timely removal from office of ministers guilty of sexual immorality with immediate and timely coordination with the appropriate authorities if any laws have been broken by a minister (no matter how long ago), including thorough investigation of the matter when the minister’s conduct may have affected other church members or their children.

II. Congregational Church governance:
Some of the congregation has awakened to the reality that our church has a set of "lay-elders," a close knit group of men who manage to be appointed to key positions year after year. The rest of the congregation needs to be awakened.

1. Those who are part of this lay-elder "power block" need to step down from positions of influence for a long time. Bellevue needs “new blood” in these key positions.
2. There needs to be the signing of a public conflict of interest form for any member that has any business contract to provide services for the church. These people should not be allowed to serve on committees that review bids for their services.
3. Congregational nomination of and election of all of the Board of Directors as called for in the 1929 bylaws.
4. A quarterly business meeting with open mike Q&A with each committee chairman. **The current bylaws mention "monthly" business meetings! When were they changed??
5. A good updated set of bylaws similar to GBC.
6. A transparent committee selection process.
7. Much greater congregational oversight of the current budget with a transparent policy for consideration of non-budgeted expenditures exceeding a reasonable amount.
8. Thorough communication with the Congregation for ANY capital project well in advance of any vote. Building prayer buildings or any other type of building should be brought through proper channels to the congregation for prayerful consideration--not coerced "rubber stamping." [By the way, Dr. Rogers taught us quite a bit about prayer. As a matter of fact, I believe all of the current buildings ARE prayer buildings already. He and Dr. Whitmire also taught us quite a bit about worship also... but that's another topic].
9. Bellevue needs to reject Warrenism fully and finally.
10. Higher standards should be put in place for the hiring of "ministers." Seminary training should be considered a normal prerequisite.

III. Treatment of ministers on staff at BBC and members:
1. A whistle blower policy for ministers, staff, and members.
2. The end of heavy handed dealing with ministers, staff, and members; and the end of signing non-disclosure statements. All ministers who have been pressured or asked to sign such non-disclosure statements should be released from them in writing by BBC! Former staff should be allowed to address the congregation and/or the deacon body either in writing or in person without any fear of reprisal regarding their exit from BBC. Gaines has confessed to mishandling Dr. Whimire's exit... The congregation now needs to hear from Dr. Whimire--and several others--by letter or in person IN THEIR OWN WORDS. The congregation needs to know how their leadership has treated and is treating ministers who leave the service of our Lord through BBC.
3. Forgiveness for those in leadership who have allowed this to deteriorate to this point--AND consequences for their actions.

All in my opinion as usual.

We are to be “providing things honestly in the sight of all men” (Rom. 12:17). Revival, reform, congregational oversight... for there is level ground at Calvary and "he who would be great among you shall be the servant of all."

Anonymous said...

Rod Almond

I do not know everything thing that B.B.C has done wrong,only the L-RD knows everything and when it started, I only know what I know. and wonder about what I have heard from someone I know. but I know that trouble started over 3 years ago. and nothing has changed since that day, they do not listen to you or anybody but themselves, they do not listen to the word of the L-RD. they simply do not care at. everyone at bellevue should know that it is a fact.
you said " Now there is division, anger, mistrust and wondering what is a lie and what is truth. Bullying and arrogance and "if YOU don't like it get used to it!" Sheep getting smacked and threatened from the pulpit by using the Word of God, as a battering ram." you tell me everyone they are hurting now. way to many people hurting. poor people.

Peace be to you Rod Almond

To answer you Josh,

No I am not a member of Bellevue, and I do not want to be. those in Authority only hurt people.

previous
know as
noemailaddress

New BBC Open Forum said...

noemailaddress wrote:

"Also, what is it that people haven't heard until now?"

I think what the writer may have been referring to was this little band of rich, powerful men who seem to be running every aspect of BBC, and that began before Steve Gaines came. Dr. Rogers apparently turned over much of the day to day operations of the church to Mark Dougharty and a handful of others, and it seems some may have, ahem... shall we say, taken advantage of their authority.

Here, in my humble opinion, is a big part of the problem today. This one person serves on over 25 boards and managing committees in the area??? Is there that much of a shortage of qualified people in Memphis that one person has to do all this? Just from BBC we know he's on the finance and missions committees, was chairman of the short-lived CC, was last year's Chairman of Deacons and Vice Chairman of the pastor search committee, has ties to ECS, was on the BOT of MATBS, and is still on the board of LWF. He's Chairman of the Board of Union University, and Steve Gaines is on the Board of Reference. Is this the same "deer-in-the-headlights, I-don't-know-the-answer-to-that" Harry Smith from the CC meetings? In the words of our friend, hisservant, "Wow." Remember, Union University wanted to take over control of MATBS at one point. Something just... reeks.

Custos said...

Noname,

Given that you're not at Bellevue, I'm not sure you're qualified to comment to the church's past. Certainly I believe that the current situation grew from seeds sewn before Dr Gaines came to Bellevue. Mark Sharpe and Richard Emerson both noted that Dr Gaines had been set up for failure given the lack of governing oversight.

While there may have been errors at the church before Dr Gaines got here, there are two issues which were left out of your post that need to be mentioned: First, Dr Rogers' presence obviously prevented the current circumstances from arising earlier--it's no coincidence that these things have happened along this timeline. Those who would take over the church knew they couldn’t overcome him when he was pastor. Second, Dr Gaines has had manifold opportunities to deal with the fruits of those seeds and to deal with the men at the root of the problem—the power players; and he has refused. He was also approached with concerns about the lack of oversight and he choose to plug his ears.

Given what we know of Dr Rogers, it is obvious that these men were only allowed to continue at the church because they concealed their ambitions from him, knowing that he would immediately stop them and likely eject them from leadership were he to discover their motives. It is clear that Dr Rogers incredible integrity intimidated them and protected us.

Contrast that picture against what we've seen in one year under Dr Gaines: Deceit, obfuscation, intimidation, law-breaking, lack of transparency, and defiant willfulness regarding all of the above. If Dr Rogers' integrity protected us before, and now we're open to all manner of evil, what has changed? It can't be simply the lack of a great man, it must be the replacement of that man by one who apparently is 1) a puppet of these men, 2) a willing accomplice, or 3) one who doesn’t see the above list as a list of wrongs. None of those possibilities are palatable to me or acceptable for a pastor.

I say all of this to say that while things may not have been perfect under Dr Rogers, he acted as a bulwark to keep this mess from crashing down on us. While the situation leading to this failure can't be completely laid at Dr Gaines' feet, it can be laid at both his feet and, further back, at the feet of these men who apparently long thought Dr Rogers to be "the spinmeister." We were rooked by these fellows too, and even now, many of the flock still are.

Suffice it all to say that though these men shouldn't have gotten into the positions they have, they never would have been able to act had Dr Gaines dealt with them once he saw them for what they are. After all, they’ve shown their true colors to him; and unlike Dr Rogers would have, Dr Gaines, having seen their true colors, refuses to deal with them. In fact, he seems to be either cooperating or colluding. For now, my money says colluding (and probably leading) given his words, deeds, and deceptions.


Best,
Josh

Karen said...

Josh,

Bravo! I am so glad to call you my friend. You make me feel smart! :)

Custos said...

Thanks Karen. And I realized I needed to add one thing:

We can't hold responsibile leaders accountable for knowledge that was concealed from them. However, we can, and should, hold any leader accountably who sees wrong doing and turns a blind eye to it.

westtnbarrister said...
This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
westtnbarrister said...

Rod Almondmartanti said...

"Has it always been policy to buy tickets for "pom=pom, rah! rah!" tickets with the Lords tithes and offerings?"

Was that a reference to the church buying tickets for the Grizzlies? If you know details, please elaborate.

I love my church said...

WTB,

I've asked about those Grizzlies tickets too. Someone explained to me Dr. Gaines had the church purchase hundreds of tickets so they would let him sing the national anthem at a game. The church sold some and made up the difference.

Anonymous said...

In my list above I added a new item:

"Timely removal from office of ministers guilty of sexual immorality with immediate and timely coordination with the appropriate authorities if any laws have been broken by a minister (no matter how long ago), including thorough investigation of the matter when the minister’s conduct may have affected other church members or their children."

And this item needs immediate attention from S. Gaines. So there is no mistake... this thing is known far and wide by now due to the fact that leadership has not handled this properly at all. This is the "scandal" vaguely referenced on the SavingBellevue site. We need to pray for Bellevue! There is no excuse for the many weeks of delay in this matter.

New BBC Open Forum said...

i love my church wrote:

"I've asked about those Grizzlies tickets too. Someone explained to me Dr. Gaines had the church purchase hundreds of tickets so they would let him sing the national anthem at a game. The church sold some and made up the difference."

Are you kidding me???

Karen said...

I went to that game and bought tickets - they weren't exactly cheap. We rode buses, some of the pastoral staff (Doyal Long, Webb Williams, Scotty Shows - I think) played basketball prior to the game, Steve sang the National Anthem w/ his daughters. It was fun - I didn't know if there was deal tied in with the Grizzlies or if it was just "Bellevue night at the Grizzlies". Never really occured to me.

Karen

I love my church said...
This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
I love my church said...

NBBCOF,

I cannot confirm this story. I have two sources who have the same basic information.

My first source was in position to know. He isn't lying to me, so he believes it.

An alternate source confirmed the same story. She added the additional detail that Bellevue had to purchase 500 tickets.

I guerss singing on local television every Sunday morning isn't enough for him anymore.

ezekiel said...

Ok, sometimes I catch on a lttle slow....

Do you mean tto tell me that we bought 500 tickets so that the Grizzlies would have Bellevue night and Steve Gaines sang the national anthem? Did they suspend beer and liquor sales that night?

Weren't the billboards tacky enough? How many people actually attended on the 500 tickets? How many did we have to eat?

moosergs said...

Can we pleasehave Dr. Spradlin now?

Karen said...

moosergs said...
Can we pleasehave Dr. Spradlin now?


From your fingers to God's ear?

karen

westtnbarrister said...

Ezekiel and NASS,

I've heard the same story. I have considered calling the Grizzlies about this. It should be easy enough to confirm what it takes to sing the national anthem.

If you think about it, unless Bellevue instigated it, why would the Grizzlies have asked him to sing? If they wanted someone from Bellevue to sing, why not someone from our music ministry? Imagine Audry Lawrence (sorry if I misspelled her name) singing the national anthem. She could blow it out!

ezekiel said...

Anybody out there still wondering if the billboards were Stev's idea?

It has been awhile since I have seen anyone with the need to self promote like this guy does.....if ever.

ezekiel said...

A cnat even type..to mad right now.
Sory for the mispesll

I love my church said...

Ezekiel,

Don't forget the Gaines shrine in the church hallway.

Anonymous said...

25+yrs@BBC said...
In my list above I added a new item:

"Timely removal from office of ministers guilty of sexual immorality with immediate and timely coordination with the appropriate authorities if any laws have been broken by a minister (no matter how long ago), including thorough investigation of the matter when the minister’s conduct may have affected other church members or their children."

And this item needs immediate attention from S. Gaines. So there is no mistake... this thing is known far and wide by now due to the fact that leadership has not handled this properly at all. This is the "scandal" vaguely referenced on the SavingBellevue site. We need to pray for Bellevue! There is no excuse for the many weeks of delay in this matter.

4:09 PM, December 14, 2006



23+years@BBC,

We heard at the Wednesday night meal that this Minster came up from Florida to Bellevue some 25 to 30 years ago. Is this what you
are hearing? I dont know many of the minsters or where they came from but any insight for our Church would be helpful to all members.

Do you think the Pastor will address the Church about his problems? Will he have to resign from working on our Church Staff?
Has anyone contacted his son?

ezekiel said...

PLAZA LEVEL
US $36.00 - US $225.00


CLUB LEVEL
US $84.00 - US $104.00


TERRACE LEVEL
US $5.00 - US $33.00

Karen, do you remember what level you sat in? How much was your ticket if you don't mind me asking? Who did you pay for your ticket. Did you pay face value?

Anonymous said...

Bellevue has a minister who has been on staff for many years who, while serving on staff at Bellevue, sexually molested and sodomized his own pre-teen son and continued for some time thereafter.

The son is now of age and he confronted his minister father and the minister confessed in front of witnesses at the church.

Gaines has known about this for well over a month and little to nothing has been done. Gaines said that it was "under the blood."

While that may be true, it still does not relieve the minister of consequences in this life. If he would do such a thing with his own son, then perhaps it would be easier with someone else's. Usually this kind of thing can involve many other children.

To make matters worse, this minister has been over the record keeping for children's workers for quite some time.

This is far bigger than some private, family sin. Gaines should have removed the minister from Bellevue the MOMENT he found out about it.

Ministers of Bellevue have been removed in the past for adultery... how could Gaines have thought that incest and sodomy were not as serious?

God is cleaning house at Bellevue... The membership needs to wake up! It is time to stop all the standing ovations and get down on our faces and seek God.

Mothers of Bellevue find your voices and fathers of Bellevue find your courage! Your leaders have been quiet and spineless.

It is way past time for light and truth.

Anonymous said...

NASS's request:
Please try to keep this thread "on topic" and use the General Discussion threads for other topics of discussion.


So, do you think Gasol will be back this week? :-)

Anonymous said...

Sackcloth&ashes,

Do you know the details of the Bellevue board member who has had a longterm affair?

It's time for the truth.

Anonymous said...

Yes, I am aware of that too. It seems that Bellevue needs to mourn instead of clap.

Anonymous said...

From the pastoral leadership to the ministerial staff, to the board of trustees, to the lay leadership... to many members of the membership that have hands over their eyes, ears, or mouth... God is cleansing His church.

Anonymous said...

custos wrote:
Certainly I believe that the current situation grew from seeds sewn before Dr Gaines came to Bellevue.

karen wrote:

Josh,

Bravo! I am so glad to call you my friend. You make me feel smart! :)


I agree wholeheartedly, Josh. BTW, can you come up to Tipton county and help me 'sew' some seed this spring?

(forgive me, I couldn't help myself)

moosergs said...

I really respect and appreciate everyones willingness to stand-up and speak out on this blog and in some cases to the church leadership about the troublesome issues we are facing at BBC. When will enough be enough though. We can only talk and have our lives disrupted for so long. It is time for some action. The leadership of this church must be removed and replaced, starting with the Pastor. If we are right in our thoughts and concerns, and I believe that we are, then we should have the courage to take this action. What is the next step?

Someone suggested going to bible study at BBC and going elsewhere for worship & church. With all due respect, that is NOT a solution. I want my church back!!! Will we be on this blog next year? There are some very intelligent people and I sure many people that have a lot of influence at BBC. Let's have some suggestions on ways to do something concrete. I'm sorry this is off the subject of this thread but this blog is so large and fast I have a hard time keeping up.

Robert Smith



Robert Smith

Anonymous said...

This is something. we have a minster on staff and a Board Of Directors member that are involved in things that scares me to describe as I hear it from many now.

Is the Pastor not going to bring this before the church?

WOUNDEDANDBLEEDING said...

Dear Ones,

I greet you in Jesus` powerful name!

This is the letter we sent to Pastor Steve moments ago. We also sent it to other Bellevue mininsters in hopes of hearing from at least one of them.

Should any of you have concrete evidence that the things herein mentioned are true, please write to us with that evidence so that we can move forward to protect the children of our church.

We would also like to encourage all of you to write directly to our pastor with your concerns.

Under HIS wings and in HIS love,

Sister Pam
gremillionp@bellsouth.net

12-14-2006

Greetings to you in the most holy name of Jesus!

Pastor Steve, Brother Charles read me some very disturbing mail today that has been posted in a public forum for the whole world to see.

I want to share the exact words that were written with you and so I will include them at my letter`s end for your reading.

Pastor Steve, if these people are telling the truth, then surely you must see the downhill journey that our church is on and there is no way that Brother Charles and I could live with ourselves if we stayed silent on this.

We don`t want to believe that there is a minister currently on staff who is a child molester or adulterer and we certainly don`t want to believe that you would have knowledge that this is true and not have moved quickly to remove them as ministers. so I beg you dear brother to tell us if any of this is true so that we can know the truth.

Pastor Steve. we hope that you will enlighten us but should there be any concrete evidence brought forward to prove these writings to be true, Brother Charles and I will move hastily to do whatever we must do to protect the children of Bellevue if our church leadership will not and we will give this issue our full time attention until the church is safe for all of Bellevue`s children.

Please be sure and read the messages that follow and contact us as soon as possible.

Remember we love you and care for your soul.

Under HIS wings and in HIS love,

Sister Pam Gremillion

Sackcloth&ashes said...
Bellevue has a minister who has been on staff for many years who, while serving on staff at Bellevue, sexually molested and sodomized his own pre-teen son and continued for some time thereafter.

The son is now of age and he confronted his minister father and the minister confessed in front of witnesses at the church.

Gaines has known about this for well over a month and little to nothing has been done. Gaines said that it was "under the blood."

While that may be true, it still does not relieve the minister of consequences in this life. If he would do such a thing with his own son, then perhaps it would be easier with someone else's. Usually this kind of thing can involve many other children.

To make matters worse, this minister has been over the record keeping for children's workers for quite some time.

This is far bigger than some private, family sin. Gaines should have removed the minister from Bellevue the MOMENT he found out about it.

Ministers of Bellevue have been removed in the past for adultery... how could Gaines have thought that incest and sodomy were not as serious?

God is cleaning house at Bellevue... The membership needs to wake up! It is time to stop all the standing ovations and get down on our faces and seek God.

Mothers of Bellevue find your voices and fathers of Bellevue find your courage! Your leaders have been quiet and spineless.

It is way past time for light and truth.

5:54 PM, December 14, 2006

Get the truth out now! said...
Sackcloth&ashes,

Do you know the details of the Bellevue board member who has had a longterm affair?

It's time for the truth.

6:07 PM, December 14, 2006

Sackcloth&ashes said...
Yes, I am aware of that too. It seems that Bellevue needs to mourn instead of clap.

6:10 PM, December 14, 2006

Sackcloth&ashes said...

From the pastoral leadership to the ministerial staff, to the board of trustees, to the lay leadership... to many members of the membership that have hands over their eyes, ears, or mouth... God is cleansing His church.

6:15 PM, December 14, 2006


Whoever welcomes this little child in my name welcomes me; and whoever welcomes me welcomes the one who sent me. For he who is least among you all--he is the greatest. (Luke 9:48)

Custos said...

Faithnhope,

I swear, I can't spell for anything! And homonyms are the worst because spell check won't get them. =)

Imagine what my posts would look like if I didn't run the longer ones through Word first!

Cheers,
Josh

New BBC Open Forum said...

Well, so much for staying on topic in this thread! Just continue as you are. One word of warning though. I do NOT want to see any names associated with the topic of discussion from the last few comments! These people have families, and their feelings are an important concern. So continue to discuss the situation if you wish. Just don't bring names into it.

Thank you,

NBBCOF

phil413 said...

Moosergs, (Bob)
I have had many days where I felt discouraged but we must be diligent in our search to bring forth the truth. There are still so many people who don't know the truth about many of these issues. We are taught from the Bible that the spirit is longsuffering and this may be a long conflict so we must "dig in our heels". We are at about the same point that GBC was after 6 yrs, so we may be moving faster than it appears. God bless you and your family and please hang in there.

Nass, Thanks so much for maintaining such a classy blog, I shudder to think what this might become if not for your constant monitoring of the comments
Psalm 118:6
David Matlock

New BBC Open Forum said...

phil413,

"Classy"? LOL! You're too kind. I'm afraid we haven't achieved that goal sometimes, but I hope everyone is trying to keep it civil.

Thanks,

NBBCOF

Karen said...

Yeah, we love our "momma sheep"!

Karen

Anonymous said...

Not not it's a biggie...but Rod_Almond said:

Thank you Mr. Whitmier for your grace and Christian character as well as that fantastic program you put on at MABTS, THE MESSIAH.

And continued to say...
We also noticed that jamie was in the front center row and the only person in the entrie production without a tie.

This seems a bit ridiculous to bring up, wouldn't you say? Nonetheless, since you brought it up I should note that you are wrong...more than one person wasn't wearing a tie that was involved in the production...

Anonymous said...

Wow! I'm overwhelmed with all this revelation. Something seems rotten to the core. Is it any wonder why the "leadership" doesn't keep the ceo accountable? I cannot believe that someone who has committed the crimes mentioned here, (child molester and his own son) would ever be in a position of leadership. You'd have to throw out the Bible to do that! And to have him in connection with the Sunday School in some way? This simply cannot be true. If it is Bellevue has gone to the dogs.

rod almond

Anonymous said...

Hay ace, we looked and didn't see one single person without a tie except jamie. That's why I mentioned it.

rod almond

Anonymous said...

Rod,

Hay ace, we looked and didn't see one single person without a tie except jamie. That's why I mentioned it.

Hey! Well, I am 200 percent sure there was at least one other person... :-) Just for your information!

Anonymous said...

Ace use your connections to find out what is going on with this sexual abuse story that will not die.

Anonymous said...

Ouch! Sounds like I hit one of your nerves, ace. I'm sure your reply isn't for my sake, because I was there. It must be for another reason.


rod almond

Anonymous said...

Trucker,

Ace use your connections to find out what is going on with this sexual abuse story that will not die.

How about this...I challenge you to go look for answers yourself instead. But when you do it, do it in a loving way. Don't shoot down anything that you disagree with even before you get answers. Have an open mind. Good luck...I look forward to seeing what you can find out soon.

You know what? I'll even help a little... If you need phone numbers for any specific person at Bellevue or contact methods then please email me and I will give you all the info you need. Again, good luck.

Anonymous said...

Trucker,

It won't die because it is true.

Anonymous said...

Rod,

Ouch! Sounds like I hit one of your nerves, ace. I'm sure your reply isn't for my sake, because I was there. It must be for another reason.

My reply was not meant to offend you, as of the smilie I posted. (You know...the :-) )

I'm not angry about this issue I just don't understand why it was brought up in the first place and why it even matters that he didn't wear a tie. You suggested that it was because he wanted to show his rebellion? Come on, now, you know that's silly...

I was there too which is why I know he wasn't the only one not wearing a tie. Go ask Whitmire...I'm pretty sure he saw a second person without one...

allofgrace said...

Personally I could care less if Jamie was wearing a tie or not. We've got much weightier issues going on here.

Anonymous said...

Ace, should this turn out to be true I just can't wait to hear what lengths you will go to to defend the inaction of the church leadership .
Ace,you better think about your blind faith in the leadership of church.This issue should open your eyes to the deception of the leadership.
BTW like 25yrs at BBC it believe that it is true.

CH said...

Ace said:

You know what? I'll even help a little... If you need phone numbers for any specific person at Bellevue or contact methods then please email me and I will give you all the info you need.

So you've got access to contact info for "any specific person at Bellevue", huh? And you're willing to divulge such? Sounds like you just inadvertently admitted to being a staff member, and a scalawag one at that.

I do hope and pray you don't have such access, and if so, that you don't misuse it.

Anonymous said...

Trucker,

Ace, should this turn out to be true I just can't wait to hear what lengths you will go to to defend the inaction of the church leadership.

So are you going to research this for us and gather up some facts to share?

Ace,you better think about your blind faith in the leadership of church.

Even though it's not "blind faith," perhaps I'll think about this some more. But only if you promise to open up your mind a little and not automatically assume that everything at Bellevue is wrong and corrupted. Sure mistakes have been made by people....but I'm wondering this...have you ever made a mistake or two...or one hundred in your life?

phil413 said...

There are many of these issues that won't go away. As 25+ said the reason is "truth". That was the reason for this blog to begin with. Many of us continue to ask for the truth to be made transparent and the leadership continues to run from it. Harry Smith said this is all over and BBC is moving forward. Personally, I don't believe BBC can move forward under the current climate of hiding from the truth.
Psalm 118:6
David Matlock

Anonymous said...

ch,

So you've got access to contact info for "any specific person at Bellevue", huh? And you're willing to divulge such?

It's called a phone book. They come in handy at times, yah know...

Sounds like you just inadvertently admitted to being a staff member, and a scalawag one at that.

Maybe it sounds that way...but that doesn't mean it's true.

I do hope and pray you don't have such access, and if so, that you don't misuse it.

Again, the yellow/white pages is a wonderful tool to find out information. If people don't know how to use it, then I'm more than willing to help out to provide phone numbers.

Anonymous said...

Trucker,

I know its true.

And Ace... this isn't about mistakes... it's about iniquity and crime.

allofgrace said...

ace,
There's not a person ever born who hasn't sinned...that's not much of a defense..and yes it's called sin...not mistakes. When I sin...it's sin..not a mistake.

CH said...

Ace said:

Sure mistakes have been made by people....but I'm wondering this...have you ever made a mistake or two...or one hundred in your life?

Ah, the old relative standard. What a load of malarkey.

I for one am a completely depraved sinner, saved by the immeasurable grace and mercy of Christ alone. I think most everyone on this blog would say the same of themselves. Does this mean we're to mindlessly ignore anything and everything others do wrong?

So many of the administration's apologists loudly proclaim the (indeed) scriptural concept of removing the plank from your own eye before pointing out the speck in another's.

Those same apologists seem to think that's the end of it, however. It's not. And those apologists also seem to want to ignore the rest of the Bible which forthrightly denounces sin and instructs believers to flee from it, not excuse it and cozy up.

Anonymous said...

CH said..So you've got access to contact info for "any specific person at Bellevue", huh? And you're willing to divulge such? Sounds like you just inadvertently admitted to being a staff member, and a scalawag one at that

Well you nailed him on that. I think Ace is closely involved with Jamie Parker he seems to be hypersensitive about Jamie and his tie.

from Ace Hey! Well, I am 200 percent sure there was at least one other person... :-) Just for your information!
Ace I believe that you are the other one without the tie

cjesusnme said...

Ace,

Sorry, but as a Mom I'm not stupid enough to think this staff member "accidentally" raped his own child. Come on...call it like it is! That's not a mistake! It's sick and I am ashamed for you to call it that and to think anyone should be open-minded about that person still being on staff!

New BBC Open Forum said...

ace wrote:

"This seems a bit ridiculous to bring up, wouldn't you say? Nonetheless, since you brought it up I should note that you are wrong...more than one person wasn't wearing a tie that was involved in the production..."

I was in the same room with ace? Wow.

As much as it pains me to say this, ace is right. There was more than one person in that performance not wearing a tie. One man besides Jamie wasn't wearing a tie. (He was wearing a pullover sweater which would have looked odd with a tie.) And I don't believe any of the women were wearing ties, so over half the group wasn't wearing neckties. And I agree it was a bit nitpicky to mention it in the first place. The lack of a tie didn't detract from Jamie's dimples in the least.

NASS

Anonymous said...

AllOfGrace,

There's not a person ever born who hasn't sinned...that's not much of a defense..

Maybe you're right that it's not a great defense but people here are acting like they are perfect and Bellevue isn't. People need to face the facts and realize that they sin too and they're not perfect.

and yes it's called sin...not mistakes. When I sin...it's sin..not a mistake.

You know what I meant...and, by the way, mistakes can = sin. If I am faced with a problem I can choose to lie or tell the truth. If I lie, that would be a sin...which is also a mistake on my part because I shouldn't have lied in the first place.

ezekiel said...

Mistakes that affect 8-10,000 people? It does say somewhere that leaders are held to a higher standard I think.

One day the leaders want to be the rulers of men, then it gets hot and they just want to be regular guys....

Anonymous said...

What Trucker and most people are discussing here is sin, not mistakes. There is a big difference between the two. You can make a mistake on a math paper or about who is wearing a tie, but if you look at what these folks are concerned about, they are not by any stretch of the imagination, mistakes.

rod almond

David Brown said...

To Ace and other defenders:

Let me make this point first. I do not a dog in the fight with Dr. Gaines. But I do have concern when children may be in danger.

I do have the phone numbers and I have made the attempts to get to the bottom of this. I left a message for Dr. Gaines yesterday. Ask Linda if you do not believe me.

Please read my previous post of last Friday afternoon. I do not hide behind anonymous names. I am an advocate for victims of sexual abuse by clergy. I am the area rep for SNAP. Survivors Network of Those Abuse by Priests. I too am a victim. If you spend the time to read my previous post, you will find the link to my story and the abuse I sustained.

I am very concerned for this family, the abuser and the victim. I deal with this everyday. I am a long time member of Bellevue since 1985. I moved our membership to a sister church recently for personal reasons. So I do identify with Southern Baptists and Bellevue.

You challenged some others to make the phone calls personally. If you have any influence with Dr. Gaines would you have him return my phone call? Would you help me?

I am intent at getting to the bottom of this. My sole purpose is to see that no other child is harmed.

One more suggestion, if looking up my old post is too hard try this. Go to this link: http://www.rememberthesurvivors.com/haasrapeoffaithbrown.htm I know there have been so many posts it may be hard to locate it. Hope this will help. It evens has my photos, one when I was pure at the age of 15 before my abuse and more recent one.

Let me warn you abut my story that was printed last year. It is very explicit. I was silent for over 35 years about my abuse and then another 9 before I was actually able to tell what really happened.

I pray that there are no other victims. But we will never know unless Bellevue is transparent and truthful. I will have much more to say about this later.

I am used to the Catholic Church stonewalling me, but I still speak and continue to seek the truth when I hear of things that I have heard of this situation. Oh for the record not all my information came from this blog.

Like I said earlier I am not afraid to use my identity. If you check my profile you will find my email addy. If anyone wants to contact me, please do it. NASS can vouch for me. I am real.

I would urge all to be in prayer over this. Please pray for all and our beloved Bellevue. God is at work.

In HIS hands
David Brown

Anonymous said...

Trucker,

Well you nailed him on that. I think Ace is closely involved with Jamie Parker he seems to be hypersensitive about Jamie and his tie.

Think as you like. I'm not even the one who brought up the tie issue.

Ace I believe that you are the other one without the tie

Hmm...again, believe as you like.

allofgrace said...

ace,
Noone on here is acting like they're perfect..we all know we're sinners. Calling sin a mistake is being soft on sin...in me, you, anybody. So what do we do?...just say well we're all sinners so let's just ignore our sin?...if that's the case Bellevue may as well close up shop.

Anonymous said...

You know...

in the Bible there is a sin offering, a trespass offering, a guilt offering...

Never seen a "mistake" offering?!

CH said...

25, you nailed it.

If the above accusations are true, and if many of the other allegations are true, we've moved far beyond the "mistake" category and on into outright lawlessness and gross moral corruption. This is to be excused because we've all made mistakes? Tell that to the minister's son, and remind yourself of that next time you drop your children or grandchildren off to be cared for by a stranger who just might have been "approved" as a worker by this very man.

Anonymous said...

CJesus,

Sorry, but as a Mom I'm not stupid enough to think this staff member "accidentally" raped his own child.

I never said it was an accident. The only thing I posted in relation to this accusation was for trucker to research and report back to us. You should be ashamed of putting words in my mouth.

It's sick and I am ashamed for you to call it that and to think anyone should be open-minded about that person still being on staff!

Guess what? Again, you shouldn't be ashamed of me but yourself because you are telling yourself that I said that and I never did.

Anonymous said...

NASS,

I was in the same room with ace? Wow.

:-)

As much as it pains me to say this, ace is right.

Thank you.

And I agree it was a bit nitpicky to mention it in the first place.

Thank you again.

Anonymous said...

AllOfGrace,

Noone on here is acting like they're perfect..we all know we're sinners.

Actually, there are quite a few people who act like they are perfect. I won't call them out because I don't work like that but if you read posts from the past month or so you will see of a certain few who act this way. And deep down inside they know they are sinners, yes, but for some reason they can't admit it to other humans.

Calling sin a mistake is being soft on sin...in me, you, anybody.

True, but in my mind a sin is still a mistake...even if it's a soft term for it and I think you'll agree with me on that.

Anonymous said...

25+years,

in the Bible there is a sin offering, a trespass offering, a guilt offering...

Never seen a "mistake" offering?!


No offense, but you are getting a little on the pathetic side. You don't have to take my word choice and diagnose it and through it all out of context.

Anonymous said...

Ace said:

I never said it was an accident. The only thing I posted in relation to this accusation was for trucker to research and report back to us. You should be ashamed of putting words in my mouth.

Ace let me ask you 3 direct questions - I don't I won't be accused of putting words in your mouth.

If these allegations are true about this minister do you:

1. Call this act a sin?
2. Believe there are consequences for sin?
3. Should this minister be allowed to stay on staff?

Anonymous said...

David Brown, I will send you an email in a little bit.

Anonymous said...

Ace said..Sure mistakes have been made by people....but I'm wondering this...have you ever made a mistake or two...or one hundred in your life?

Yes Ace I've made mistakes in my life.BUT this is not a mistake it is a CRIME,and depravity. How dare you call incest a mistake.What are you thinking?What bible teacher ,preacher or teacher has taught you that this is a mistake.I dare you to look in the eyes of a child whose life is destroyed by incest and tell them it's just a mistake.I was a victim of a pedifile (not my parents but someone I trusted)I personally know what it is it like.
Why are you trivilizing this,you should be outraged by this,and demanding answers.
You are obvipously a young person ,one day you may have children then I wonder if you will consider sexual abuse of a child a mistake.

Anonymous said...

No Ace,

A mistake is trivial, but a sin is against God.

A mistake can stay hidden, but sin will not be hidden.

cjesusnme said...

Ace,

I apologize if I misquoted you, so I am copying parts of your posts to show why I "put words in your mouth" as you mention.

Ace said:
"Even though it's not "blind faith," perhaps I'll think about this some more. But only if you promise to open up your mind a little and not automatically assume that everything at Bellevue is wrong and corrupted. Sure mistakes have been made by people....but I'm wondering this...have you ever made a mistake or two...or one hundred in your life?"

reply:
Once again, I will state that what this staff person did is not simply a "mistake"! Are you really insinuating this act of sexual sin was a "mistake"? I pray that you are not!

Ace said:
"How about this...I challenge you to go look for answers yourself instead. But when you do it, do it in a loving way. Don't shoot down anything that you disagree with even before you get answers. Have an open mind. Good luck...I look forward to seeing what you can find out soon."

reply:
Are you serious? An open mind about this when we are dropping off our kids to be cared for and there is a paid staff person who doesn't think that he needs to step down after him doing this sick thing to his own child? I'm enragged that you condone this and ask us to have an open mind! What will you want us to do next? I'm going to pray an extra special prayer for you tonight Ace!

CRRV said...

why should names not be said! If you know who this is and you do not divulge the name, you are just as guilty. May God have mercy on your soul if another child at Bellevue is sodomized and you did not reveal his name in an attempt to expose such groos actions. How dare anyone suggest that a person aware of such accusations keep their mouth closed, thereby in effect protecting the molester. Jesus would demand the exposure of such a man.

allofgrace said...

ace,
any way you slice it..calling sin a mistake is just rationalization...God doesn't call it mistakes. Adding 2 plus 2 and coming up with 5 is a mistake. Lying, stealing, immorality....God calls it sin. I think we should too..without rationalizing it into merely a mistake. This isn't a debate over tomato or tomahto. Words carry weight.

Anonymous said...

Words are what we communicate with ace. Either say what you mean and mean what you say or be quiet

rod almond.

CRRV said...

by the way, the word sin in the greek means literally "missing the mark", which implies mistake. Other words in scripture are used to imply gross misconduct such as: abomination like... sodomizing children.

Anonymous said...

crrv,

Take your righteous anger out on Gaines. He is the one who let him stay. I and others outside the loop have already spoken with authorities. They know his name.

CRRV said...

well, if the authorities are not doing anything, you must protect the children yourself

Anonymous said...

Ace

I don`t think the Tennessee State Attorney thinks we need to have an open mind anout this!

Child Molestation And Abuse

Let's face it. Almost all the rules and tips about increasing children's personal safety have to do with your two big fears for children: sexual molestation and physical harm.

Each year an estimated 100,000 U.S. children suffer some form of sexual abuse. The average age of the child victim is 10 years old.

Teaching stranger rules is smart, but not enough. In the majority of cases, the child sexual molester is known to the child and the child's family. That's why only a minority of abuse cases is reported to the police. The abuser is often a parent, relative, baby-sitter or close family friend. Children may give in to adult's sexual advances because they fear losing their love, or fear their punishment. Therefore, they are especially vulnerable to sexual abuse by someone they know, like people who care for them regularly. Children are trusting and defenseless. Make sure you check carefully the references of baby-sitters, day-care centers, and recreation leaders.

A child may not recognize sexual abuse when it happens, or even know it's wrong, especially if the abuser is someone the child knows. Children must learn what appropriate touching is. Discuss it with your child. Many children instinctively know what proper distance should be kept between them and other persons. Sometimes a child may be uncertain about the intentions of another person. In this situation, children should know it's O.K. to respond in a way that makes them feel safe and more comfortable. Children usually know that genuine and gentle affection is different from someone who tries to touch their genitals or fondle them in any way that makes them feel unsafe. They should pull away immediately if someone suggests such actions, even if they're offered a present as a bribe.

HOW TO RESPOND

Children often make up stories, but they rarely lie about being victims of sexual assault. If a child tells you about being touched or assaulted, take it seriously. Your response is very important and will influence how the child will react and recover from the abuse.

Stay calm. In a reassuring tone, find out as much as you can about the incident. Explain to your child that you are concerned about what happened. Don't be angry. Many children feel guilty, as if they had provoked the assault. Children need to be reassured that they are not to blame, and that they are right to tell you what happened.

A child may need to be taken immediately to a doctor or an emergency room. Sometimes the child may need to be treated for V.D. and checked for pregnancy.

Law enforcement, special hot-lines or a child welfare agency should be contacted right away.

Sometimes, a child may be too frightened or confused to talk directly about the abuse. Be alert for an change in behavior that might hint that the child has suffered a disturbing experience.

Is the child suddenly more withdrawn than usual, refusing to go to school or afraid to be alone?
Is the child having trouble sleeping, waking up with nightmares, or wetting the bed?
Is the child complaining of irritation of the genital areas?
Are there signs of increased anxiety or immature behavior?
Does the child show a marked change in behavior toward a relative, neighbor or baby-sitter?
Other Child Abuse
Including sexual abuse, an estimated one million child abuse incidents are reported every year. Other forms of child abuse include physical violence, emotional cruelty and deprivation and physical neglect.

Child abusers are persons usually known to the child. This means most cases are not reported to authorities and children continue to suffer because abusers are repeat offenders.

Child abuse is dangerous and against the law. Many abused children will grow up and victimize their families, and others, later in life. It is your duty as a citizen to report suspected cases of child abuse by contacting a special hot-line, the police, or child welfare agency immediately. The children need help and treatment as soon as possible.



Child Abuse - A Public Health Epidemic

Is This Really An Epidemic?

Yes! One in five girls and one in ten boys have been sexually abused before the age of eighteen.

Who Are These Abusers?

90% of the victims of child sexual abuse know their abusers--they are the fathers, mothers, siblings, close relatives, friends, or other caretakers of children. They are rarely the monsters we imagine lurking in the corners of our playgrounds and parks.

Can Abusers Change?

Experts say YES! But sending abusers to prison without treatment does not stop further abuse. Those prosecuted for their crimes and assigned to specialized treatment have learned to control their behavior. A recent study in Vermont showed that without treatment, 38% of abusers returning to the streets abused again. With treatment, this incidence of re-offending dropped to 6%.


Tennessee Sexual Assault Crisis Centers

Anonymous said...

InformedAtBBC,

Ace let me ask you 3 direct questions.

Okay...

If these allegations are true about this minister do you:
1. Call this act a sin?


Yes.

2. Believe there are consequences for sin?

Yes.

3. Should this minister be allowed to stay on staff?
If 100 percent of the facts have already been presented on this forum (which they haven't) then no. More details (and facts) are needed though for me to come up with a definite answer. If he works with children then my answer in no, regardless of his past. Yes, he sinned before and he is still human and may sin in the same manner again.

Anonymous said...

CRRV,

Gaines has known for many weeks now. Let that sink in.

Others are just now finding out and they are acting on it.

Anonymous said...

Ace,

Sin, Mistake - what are you discussing? Peoples well being are at risk. If it is true, it is tragic for all. Prayer is needed. However, if it is true, dont try to figure what shade of gray this is. Meet leadership at their office and protect your children.

Anonymous said...

Ace,
for the love of gumbo, jus' say you wuz mistaken for saying mistake; or am I mistaken for suggestin'?

Anonymous said...

Ace I asked how would you defend the leadership on this now from your own words it was a simple "mistake" WOW Ace you are totally pathetic.

Anonymous said...

CJesusInMe,

Once again, I will state that what this staff person did is not simply a "mistake"! Are you really insinuating this act of sexual sin was a "mistake"? I pray that you are not!

When I used the term 'mistake' I wasn't talking about any in specific or a specific sin. I was talking about this whole ordeal at Bellevue in general... i.e. with Gaines and stuff. I'm sorry for the confusion.

Are you serious? An open mind about this when we are dropping off our kids to be cared for and there is a paid staff person who doesn't think that he needs to step down after him doing this sick thing to his own child? I'm enragged that you condone this and ask us to have an open mind!

Yes I'm serious. But again, you're putting words in my mouth. I do not condone such actions so I would appreciate it if you would take that statement back.

I'm going to pray an extra special prayer for you tonight Ace!

Thanks, I love it when people pray for me. (I'm being serious here!)

Anonymous said...

Read this part

v-e-r-y
c-a-r-e-f-u-l-l-y Ace

Child abuse is dangerous and against the law. Many abused children will grow up and victimize their families, and others, later in life. It is your duty as a citizen to report suspected cases of child abuse by contacting a special hot-line, the police, or child welfare agency immediately.

CRRV said...

Did Rogers know?

Anonymous said...

Rod,

Words are what we communicate with ace. Either say what you mean and mean what you say or be quiet

Okay, if that's the way we're going to play then I could have a lot of fun here. Oh wait, I don't twist people's words around because that is just downright low.

Anonymous said...

CRRV,

No he didn't.

MOM4 said...

Ace,
Please answer this question for me.
The minister abused and defiled his own son for some time during the son's pre-teen years, then the minister stopped and he says he has not done it since - to his son - this very same son who is suffering to this very day is the one that "outted" the minister.

In your opinion, all is well??? In your opinion, there is no accountabiliy?? In your opinon, it was a mistake??

On what, sir, do you base your opinions? Scripture??

We are talking about a minister at Belleve Baptist Church! Are you NUTS? How can you face God Almighty and condone this?
THIS IS SIN, THAT WHICH IS NOT NATURAL IN THE EYES OF GOD, SODOM & GOMORRAH WOULD HAVE CONDONED IT, BUT NOT THE MAJORITY OF THE MEMBERSHIP OF BELLEVUE BAPTIST CHURCH!

CRRV said...

How do we know that he didn't know? Didn't this happen while Rogers was the pastor?

Anonymous said...

Trucker,

Ace I asked how would you defend the leadership on this now from your own words it was a simple "mistake" WOW Ace you are totally pathetic.

Who is the pathetic one? You posted a general statement and I responded with one too. You disagree with most of my points so therefore I am pathetic. Nice logic.

Anonymous said...

I thought that was you the second you posted!

David Brown said...

Please folks:

Let stop picking on ACE. Fellow saints lets focus on getting to the bottom of this and the truth.

Let all agree to be in prayer tonight and tomorrow and that the truth comes out, good or bad. We MUST protect our children. As I have said so often "I DO NOT WANT TO SEE ONE MORE CHILD HURT AS I WAS."

We must take steps to protect our children and being truthful about this is the first step.

So please quit nick picking each other and let's join our Spirit as one over this situtation.

It is late and I am going to bed. NASS does have my phone number if ANYONE feels they need to talk to me.

I love all of you.

Anonymous said...

Ace -

You have still not answered my questions from my post at 10:39 earlier - I know you were writing an email to David, but would you please take the time to give us your answers:

If these allegations are true about this minister do you:

1. Call this act a sin?
2. Believe there are consequences for sin?
3. Should this minister be allowed to stay on staff?

Anonymous said...

Where I'm from, child sexers can get the death penalty, sometimes even 'fore they arrested

Anonymous said...

Crrv,

How do we know that he didn't know? Didn't this happen while Rogers was the pastor?

We don't. And based on what people posted here, this happened during the Dr. Rogers' time as pastor...

Anonymous said...

CRRV,

I'm sure some may try to spin this that way, but this came to light only because the son pressed it now.

Anonymous said...

Mom4,

In your opinion, all is well??? In your opinion, there is no accountabiliy?? In your opinon, it was a mistake??

Read my posts and not the posts people are quoting me in. You will see that I never said all is well and people here are trying to make me look like a creep.

Anonymous said...

Informed,

You have still not answered my questions from my post at 10:39 earlier - I know you were writing an email to David, but would you please take the time to give us your answers:

I answered your questions at 10:53

CRRV said...

so the fact is, this went on under rogers ministry and nothing was done. We don't know for sure that he didn't know.

Anonymous said...

trucker said...
Ace said..Sure mistakes have been made by people....but I'm wondering this...have you ever made a mistake or two...or one hundred in your life?

Yes Ace I've made mistakes in my life.BUT this is not a mistake it is a CRIME,and depravity. How dare you call incest a mistake.What are you thinking?What bible teacher ,preacher or teacher has taught you that this is a mistake.I dare you to look in the eyes of a child whose life is destroyed by incest and tell them it's just a mistake.I was a victim of a pedifile (not my parents but someone I trusted)I personally know what it is it like.
Why are you trivilizing this,you should be outraged by this,and demanding answers.
You are obvipously a young person ,one day you may have children then I wonder if you will consider sexual abuse of a child a mistake.

REPLY:

Trucker I am sorry that you were the victim of child abuse and I am sure it really hurts for you to hear what is going on at Bellevue.

When we do nothing, we take part in the sin we defend or ignore.

Our pastor is a partaker in this man`s sin and so are the other leaders who have sat there and done nothing about it.

And so are you Ace, if you dare to have this information and do nothing with it except write your little comments here in defense of your sin soaked ministers at Bellevue.

Anonymous said...

Ace,

Dr. Rogers absolutely did not know!! Had he known he would have treated this as he did other cases of immorality. Immediately remove the minister. If you are old enough to remember...

Anonymous said...

25+yrs@BBC said...
CRRV,

Gaines has known for many weeks now. Let that sink in.

Others are just now finding out and they are acting on it.

10:54 PM, December 14, 2006


This is unbeliveable.This a Church. The company I work for would NEVER tolerate this.But the pastor of a Southern Baptist Church will keep it hidden and endanger innocent children.And members like Ace call it a mistake.I am in total shock. Someone , please tell us who this pervert is,that is the moral thing to do.

CRRV said...

maybe he was friends with this guy. Maybe there were other factors. Rogers wasn't perfect. It went on under his ministry and nothing was done. That is the fact.

Anonymous said...

crrv,

Get lost speckulating on Rogers knowledge of this. Were you sent here to smear him when he can't respond? BOARD... leave him out of this!

The fact before is is that Gaines knew and did nothing for weeks. That much is true... anything else is spin.

CRRV said...

i agree! the secrecy must come to an end. All of you who know are participating in the cover up like Gaines and possibly Rogers!

MOM4 said...

crrv,
You must have never known Dr Rogers. Had he known, I believe he would have tried to lead him to repentance, probably suggested biblical counseling, perhaps put him and his son in the room together to reconcile biblically, then personally escorted him to the door where a police car was waiting.

Anonymous said...

Ace,
(i was pseudo ace/ new prospect, 'member?)

I dont think people trying to make you look like a creep. but there some people on here that have also been sexed on by adults; and generally, that is met with outrage. Your objectivity on de subject might be seen as 'downplayin' it. but i'm sure it disgust you too if it be true, right?

CRRV said...

I dont know that Gaines knows who this is, why should I not believe Rogers knew

Anonymous said...

Trucker,

And members like Ace call it a mistake.I am in total shock.

What is your problem? You just love to stir up trouble don't you? People who are following my posts will realize that you are acting immature and misquoting me. You are unbelieveable...you really are...

Anonymous said...

Ace -

Sorry missed your 10:53 answer...

can you clarify your last answer please? I will paraphrase what I think you said:

If he works with children he should be removed, but if he doesn't he should stay?

Please clear this up because I can't believe you think it's OK for a man to remain an Ordained Minister with this in his past.

CRRV said...

you see, I dont know either because there are people reading this who know and are not telling. I am not leaving my kids at Bellevue!

dewaynehartsoe said...

crrv

I would be very careful when you start to assume something. Dr. Rogers is not with us anymore and there is none of us who know what Dr. Rogers knew. I have known Dr. Rogers a long time and I don't believe he would have condoned this for a second.

He would have loved him if he repented but he would not have just dismissed it.

MOM4 said...

oh yeah, and fired him on the spot!

CRRV said...

I do not know that and neither do you. Everyone sins. Covering this up could have been one of his many sins.

Anonymous said...

Backhome,

Your objectivity on de subject might be seen as 'downplayin' it. but i'm sure it disgust you too if it be true, right?

Yes.

Anonymous said...

CRRV you are absolutely scarry! You are talking about something you know absolutely nothing about and trying to smear Dr Rogers! Why are you doing such an evil thing?

CRRV said...

I am trying to wake people up. Covering up is worse than the act. Because there is so much cover up we dont know who is involved in the cover up. I am just stating the fact. It went on during Rogers pastorate and nothing was done. The time for inaction is over.

Anonymous said...

Ace,
Thank you, maybe they lay off now, but dont be breathholdin'

Anonymous said...

IN REGARD TO Dr. Rogers - I think this post needs to be reconsidered. This is part and parcel to the problem or problems.



Custos said...
Noname,

Given that you're not at Bellevue, I'm not sure you're qualified to comment to the church's past. Certainly I believe that the current situation grew from seeds sewn before Dr Gaines came to Bellevue. Mark Sharpe and Richard Emerson both noted that Dr Gaines had been set up for failure given the lack of governing oversight.

While there may have been errors at the church before Dr Gaines got here, there are two issues which were left out of your post that need to be mentioned: First, Dr Rogers' presence obviously prevented the current circumstances from arising earlier--it's no coincidence that these things have happened along this timeline. Those who would take over the church knew they couldn’t overcome him when he was pastor. Second, Dr Gaines has had manifold opportunities to deal with the fruits of those seeds and to deal with the men at the root of the problem—the power players; and he has refused. He was also approached with concerns about the lack of oversight and he choose to plug his ears.

Given what we know of Dr Rogers, it is obvious that these men were only allowed to continue at the church because they concealed their ambitions from him, knowing that he would immediately stop them and likely eject them from leadership were he to discover their motives. It is clear that Dr Rogers incredible integrity intimidated them and protected us.

Contrast that picture against what we've seen in one year under Dr Gaines: Deceit, obfuscation, intimidation, law-breaking, lack of transparency, and defiant willfulness regarding all of the above. If Dr Rogers' integrity protected us before, and now we're open to all manner of evil, what has changed? It can't be simply the lack of a great man, it must be the replacement of that man by one who apparently is 1) a puppet of these men, 2) a willing accomplice, or 3) one who doesn’t see the above list as a list of wrongs. None of those possibilities are palatable to me or acceptable for a pastor.

I say all of this to say that while things may not have been perfect under Dr Rogers, he acted as a bulwark to keep this mess from crashing down on us. While the situation leading to this failure can't be completely laid at Dr Gaines' feet, it can be laid at both his feet and, further back, at the feet of these men who apparently long thought Dr Rogers to be "the spinmeister." We were rooked by these fellows too, and even now, many of the flock still are.

Suffice it all to say that though these men shouldn't have gotten into the positions they have, they never would have been able to act had Dr Gaines dealt with them once he saw them for what they are. After all, they’ve shown their true colors to him; and unlike Dr Rogers would have, Dr Gaines, having seen their true colors, refuses to deal with them. In fact, he seems to be either cooperating or colluding. For now, my money says colluding (and probably leading) given his words, deeds, and deceptions.


Best,
Josh

Custos said...
Thanks Karen. And I realized I needed to add one thing:

We can't hold responsibile leaders accountable for knowledge that was concealed from them. However, we can, and should, hold any leader accountably who sees wrong doing and turns a blind eye to it.

Anonymous said...

Informed,

can you clarify your last answer please? I will paraphrase what I think you said:

I will in a little bit, but I need to ask you a question or two first.

If he works with children he should be removed, but if he doesn't he should stay?

Before people start misquoting me, no, that's not what I meant fully.

Please clear this up because I can't believe you think it's OK for a man to remain an Ordained Minister with this in his past.

Let me ask you this...totally different scenario. Let's say there was a teenager (13 years old), not a Christan who comitted murder. He was sent to jail but somehow he got released when it was let's say...35. During his time in prison he became a strong Christian. After being released he went to school and seminary and got a Doctor of Divinity degree and everything...would it be wrong of this person to be a senior pastor of a church at age 55?

Anonymous said...

By the way, I want Informed to answer that question not anyone else. I don't want to deal with a hundred people answering my question, please....just Informed.

Thanks.

Anonymous said...

crrv...

I said leave Rogers out of this.
He would have fired him. You brought him up as did Ace and that smells of spin.

I know Gaines has known for weeks period!

Anonymous said...

BackHome,

Thank you, maybe they lay off now, but dont be breathholdin'

I hope so...I've been saying that I think it's wrong for quite a while now but people just aren't recognizing that. I appreciate your attitude with me...I really do...thanks.

CRRV said...
This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
CH said...

CRRV, has it not dawned on you that perhaps the reason why people here with any substantial knowledge of the situation (which would not include me) aren't naming names at this point... is solely to protect the son and the family?

You're dealing with incredibly serious issues, life-altering revelations. This blog, interesting and useful as it is, is certainly not the place to reveal such information.

CRRV said...

I can appreciate that except it bothers me when it appears that nothing is being done. This cannot be allowed to remain in the shaddows for another day

Anonymous said...

CRRV,

I do know for sure! You sir or mam are smearing his good name and I detest that! Go awaaaaay!

CRRV said...
This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
Anonymous said...

ace said.If he works with children he should be removed, but if he doesn't he should stay?

Well said Ace, once again you show your ignorance.As long as you consider child abuse a mistake(your words)and not a serious issue if he dosen't work with children it's ok.
My children will no longer be at BBC.I'll die before I let anyone abuse my children.

CH said...
This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
Anonymous said...

CRRV,

I know he did not know because the son just came forwward this Fall. Period.

CRRV said...

Ya'll are crazy to think that Dr. Rogers was perfect. He would probably be the first to tell you that he was not. It is not impossible. It is not a ridiculous question to ask if he knew what was going on while he was the pastor

Anonymous said...

Trucker,

I never said what you said in your 11:24 PM, December 14, 2006 post. Administrator: please delete that post or trucker, if you have the guts, delete it yourself.

You are acting like a criminal here.

allofgrace said...

CH said...

CRRV, of course we can't know for sure. The man is dead and gone. Let it be, will ya? Good grief...

Agreed...let it go...He's not here to answer, so it's pointless..all you're accomplishing is casting aspersions on his character.

Anonymous said...

CRRV- If the whole world knew and did nothing, does that excuse another person from knowing and doing nothing.

NO!!!!!

Your point is useless and really a pathetic attempt to bring Dr. Rogers down to Steve Gaines level!

Anonymous said...

CRRV,

We don't think he was perfect. But you are spending alot of time trying to shift this in his direction. Now why is that? hmmm

CRRV said...

My point is not useless. I am attempting to show the problems associated with not revealing the identity of a child molester who has access to kids

CRRV said...

this is an attempt on my part to merly ask questions that should be asked if those who know are committed to remain silent

Anonymous said...

BBC'ers,
you have had concerns about bunches of things for a while now.
all these things make you wonder 'bout your preacher... if this new stuff be true, how he deals with it may cause there to be not as much wonderins'

allofgrace said...

Good grief this is worse than trying to resurrect Elvis...leave Dr. Rogers out of this...AND GIVE HIS FAMILY SOME PEACE, FOR CRYIN OUT LOUD.

CH said...

CRRV said:
Ya'll are crazy to think that Dr. Rogers was perfect. He would probably be the first to tell you that he was not. It is not impossible. It is not a ridiculous question to ask if he knew what was going on while he was the pastor

Good grief man, what's wrong with you? No one here has claimed infallibility on the part of Dr. Rogers. To the best of my recollection, in fact, he himself was the first to say he was far from perfect.

And no, it wasn't a ridiculous question the first time you asked it. It has, however, become incredibly ridiculous since you won't let it go. You seem to want to pin some sort of guilt on a beloved pastor who is now in heaven, rather than deal with the perpetrator and his current enablers.

CRRV said...

what if the molester was close to Rogers. I dont know because I dont know who the molester is!

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