It's now after the meeting. As usual, we got little in the way of answers from the committee. Most questions were met with, "I don't know," or "None of us are on that committee. You need to ask them," or a new and novel approach, a blank stare accompanied by, "Thank you for the question. Next question?" I went in hoping for at least some answers, but the fact that we didn't get answers doesn't mean the meeting was a waste of time.
Indeed, this was a very important meeting. There were well over 200 people in attendance, and Mark Sharpe had the opportunity to ask questions and to speak. For many, this was the first time they'd had an opportunity to see Mark and hear from him. Leaving the room and walking down the hallway afterwards, I heard snippets of conversations along the way, and people were saying things like, "I'm glad we got to hear Mark Sharpe. I think he's telling the truth." Or "I didn't know who Mark Sharpe was, but after hearing what he said, I really do think we've got problems." Or "I really do think God sent Mark Sharpe to Bellevue at this time."
This is what was accomplished this morning! People are one by one pulling their heads out of the sand and considering that this may be a lot more than just a small group of disgruntled members who don't like the music or who are just upset because Steve Gaines isn't Adrian Rogers.
Sister Pam Gremillion is writing a transcript of the meeting which she is publishing in the comments of this thread.
1. Did you attend the December 3rd meeting?
2. What were your impressions?
Saturday, December 02, 2006
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412 comments:
«Oldest ‹Older 201 – 400 of 412 Newer› Newest»allofgrace: trust me, I am gone after today. as I have posted, MOST of us are moving on.
ace,
no man..i've got no kick with you being here..and I'm not putting words in your mouth...I'm just observing...you're welcome to disagree with me all you want..I'm all for that..but just in case I am putting words in your mouth...I apologize..I'm just thinking from the standpoint of how I'd feel about a hate filled blog..in fact I've visited a couple from folks outside of BBC who've posted here and didn't care to stay and comment because of that very thing...but my apology stands.
Hisservant,
You've just validated the existance of this Blog. You obviously have access to inside information that normal members just didn't. You may have known but others had no idea about some of the activities going on behind the scenes. Is the majority of the congregation's mass ignorance of the inner workings of the church a reason not to listen when the truth is presented? Is it your position that this blog should never have existed?
Stillwaiting,
Please dont insult me with the Dec. 24th comment.
My intent was not to insult but to illustrate a point.
It is obvious that Dec. 24th is Christmas.
Actually, December 25nd is Christmas.
Note: That was a joke. It's okay if you smile... :-)
Allofgrace,
i've got no kick with you being here..and I'm not putting words in your mouth...I'm just observing...
I have never said I hate anyone on this forum so that would be putting words in my mouth. Hate is such a strong word, wouldn't you say?
you're welcome to disagree with me all you want..I'm all for that..
Oh, believe me, I do! :)
but just in case I am putting words in your mouth...I apologize..
Thank you..Apology accepted.
Allofgrace,
Some of these guys are done posting here, the CC committee completed their "work," and the pastor "apologized." Do you think they believe they have successfully defended the pastor and can now bring the troops back home?
stillwaitingandwatching said...
HisServant-1 said...
here is a tip. we are moving on!
Sounds like something h(arry)is(mith)servant-1 would say.
Could YOU be HIM????
9:36 PM, December 03, 2006
SW&W great deduction, are you a detective? Love it
Hisservent, do your eyes glaze over when you avoid questions?
Glad to know you are moving on I'm sure ace "the hisservent wannabe" will follow with you.
PS there is room for you at the bratton report ,he needs some clowns for his circus.
My fellow brothers and sisters in Christ. DO NOT ENGAGE PASTOR. He spouts confusion and reveals old wounds (and much more). Christ promised to forgive us our sins and He will not be the one to bring them back up. Only the Holy Spirit has the power to deal with pastor and his kind.
There is something sulfurically wrong about pastor's postings. I believe the Holy Spirit is "checking" me on this.
Karen, a man of Christ would have NEVER brought that up in private unless there were a healing purpose, much less in public where the goal is to destroy.
Please, I'm telling you. Do not engage him.
A.
So - just curious - who here elects to not forgive Dr. Gaines?
HisServant-1 said...
Mom4:
#1: so now you have already moved on to Brain Miller? do you know him??
To know of him is to know that he is more of the same.
#2: sounds good. you need to go where you are fed.
You need to move on as well, you have no business on this blog, you are part of the problem, you have never made one comment toward finding the truth, you have blindly walked like a mule with blinders on..come on, sir, do some digging! I hope you don't think that this is an "evil" or "hate filled" comment, because it is not intended to be so, I am just fedup with your lack of knowledge on the issues.
Custos said..."H Smith said that he wanted to ask S Gaines' forgiveness for what he had been put through over the last year."
7:29 PM, December 03, 2006
------
Let me make sure I'm seeing this clearly...
Harry is asking SG to forgive us for SG's actions and the consequences they brought us all?
Somebody help me out here.
Andrew
Stillwaiting,
Yeah, well, it was insulting
I'm sorry - will you forgive me?
and your logic was faulty.
Perhaps it was, but again I was just trying to illustrate a point and I think you get it.
Well finaly you guys got your answers. You got your apology so what is the problem now.
It turns out that the real hurt and pain that was caused Jim Whitmire is nothing but the fact that he got his pride hurt a little bit. Big whoopity do!! After reading all the garbage on here for the past several weeks I thought that were a hundred different things that had been done to him. There was even a post from his trash talking son about how bad his dad got treated.
You guys must think Gaines is some kind of idiot if you think what he would say something about Whitmire that's not true. Gaines said what was true. He knows that if he didn't that Whitmire could dispute it. This should shut the mouths of a bunch of you that have been talking trash for the past several weeks. Bunch of lies about talking to Whitmire and he said this and that. You guys are incredible. Get over it.
Don't bother responding to me I am done reading all your trash and lies and won't respond. If you guys want to talk about the truth then you need to find out what it is.
Barrister,
25-30 Million dollars can buy you a lot of cover and garner you a lot of support. The corporation lives on it's CEO and board of directors insulated from any real change or challenge to their leadership. The ONLY way the members will ever be able to affect change in that place is to do exactly what you do to a corporation that isn't acting in a consumer friendly way. Stop supporting them. If you can stomach attending church and not tithing then be my guest. We cannot. And no doubt about it the pocketbook is the only way you will ever get anything changed there.
Confused,
Glad to know you are moving on I'm sure ace "the hisservent wannabe" will follow with you.
Wouldn't that be a glorious day when I disappear for you folks? FYI: I have no intentions on leaving anytime soon. Some of you will be disappointed to hear this, but others will be happy because I know how much I am loved around this part of the internet.
Cheers!
WTB,
It would appear so...all quiet on the Western front I suppose..NOT
beyereconciled said...
A man robs 50 banks in Memphis over the course of a year, then one day he takes a few cookies off of an old lady`s windown sill.
He knocks on the old ladu`s door and apologizes for taking her cookies.
The paper runs an article about this humble man who came to apologize to the little old cookie maker.
They throw him a party.
He still has not confessed that he is a bank robber and yet his has become a hero!
How easy we are deceived!
Steve Gaines apologizes about the way Jim Whitmire was treated while many he mistreated watch this pathetic charade.
When will the pastor come clean on everything he has done here and in Gardendale and who knows where else??????
7:29 PM, December 03, 2006
Great post, this is exactly what is going on.Ace and his dad Harry (hisservent) Smith need to take this lesson to heart
allofgrace and mom4,
Thanks for your kind words. I will email you both - mom4 if your email address isn't on your profile - mine is - you can email me! I don't want to get into specifics on here for OBVIOUS reasons. My pastor is very humble - probably wouldn't want his name all over the place.
hisservant-1,
Glad to know you are moving on. We were members for 14 years which is our entire married life. We learned and grew from Dr. Rogers and Jim Whitmire. We are appalled at the shameful way Dr. Whitmire was treated. We are appalled by the way Dr. Rogers was treated before his death. Dispute me all you want. I have the facts. Others here do as well. My best friends have spoken to David Smith as they are at GBC and so is he. He's very easy to find. Maybe you should locate him and ask him to his face? I hear he wouldn't sign the disclosure form. Good for you, David Smith! I will someday see you and shake your hand! I applauded you when I heard the news. I wish more people would stand up for their beliefs. That is the whole problem here.
Back to you, hisservant. Ummmmm, you must not be the same hisservant-1 that was praising me the other day. You know what? My heart hurts for ALL of you. Not just on one side or the other. I freely admit we are ALL frustrated, angry or whatever. I do not condone rudeness from any side and can only speak for myself. If I have ever said anything on these blogs that was hateful or mean spirited, I ask for forgiveness right now. I hope allofgrace is right in saying I have not acted in that way. I strive to live for my Lord and Savior EVERY DAY as the Bible commands me to do. I love all of you in Christ. I will stop commenting here as the Lord leads. I will bow to NO MAN only to my Lord and Savior.
Sincerely,
Diana H.
ace,
I don't know you..disagreeing with you doesn't = not loving you. You're a member of BBC and a brother..I don't have any choice.
getoveritbbc....said....
This is the same attitude that has permeated the church since Steve Gaines came. Is this what we are to expect from now on?
Hey ace!
Don't leave! Some of us like you (at least a little)!
Diana,
Don't leave! Some of us like you (at least a little)!
Wow, that must've taken some courage to post. I think that's possibly the first time I heard something like that on this forum... thanks! :) And - again - I'm not planning on going anywhere.
"I think Harry Smith needs to be removed as Dr. Gaines' spokesperson and move on to something more non-verbal like clerking for the church or data entry."
Priceless.
New Deacon Officers:
Chairman: Brian Miller
Vice Chairman: Ted Minor; Beau Pittman; John Caldwell; Derrick Duncan; Bob Vincent; Mark Smith.
Secretary: Jeff Pearson
Asst. Sec: Terry Brimhall
Asst. Sec: Spence Ray
Stillwaiting,
HELLO ACE!!!!! I do belive I told you I thought you weren't so bad after all!!!!
Oh yeah, I remember that...Correction Diana, 2nd time! :)
Oh, and ace....I stated in a previous post that I forgive Dr. Gaines for the things he has asked forgiveness for.
That's good to know. Does anybody else forgive him?
Oh I forgive him. I can't forget though which is why we're leaving.
Read up ace.
andrew said...
"Let me make sure I'm seeing this clearly...
Harry is asking SG to forgive us for SG's actions and the consequences they brought us all?
Somebody help me out here."
Ask hisservent or getoveritbbc AKA RM to explain it I'M sure it makes sense to them.
perfect sense to them
AllOfGrace,
Read up ace.
What exactly am I looking for?
Housewife said...
My fellow brothers and sisters in Christ. DO NOT ENGAGE PASTOR. He spouts confusion and reveals old wounds (and much more). Christ promised to forgive us our sins and He will not be the one to bring them back up. Only the Holy Spirit has the power to deal with pastor and his kind.
There is something sulfurically wrong about pastor's postings. I believe the Holy Spirit is "checking" me on this.
Karen, a man of Christ would have NEVER brought that up in private unless there were a healing purpose, much less in public where the goal is to destroy.
Please, I'm telling you. Do not engage him.
A.
9:57 PM, December 03, 2006
-------
Good Word!
Andrew
ju,
Oh I forgive him. I can't forget though which is why we're leaving.
God forgives and forgets...isn't that great?
"For I will forgive their wickedness and will remember their sins no more."
Jeremiah 31:34
It's a shame we can't do that too...
ace,
You asked who else has forgiven him.
Good point however I'm not God and have faults of the flesh like everone else. One of them is I can't forget what he's done and can't submit my family to his authority as such in good faith. Like I said though I have forgiven him. I think that it's not my forgiveness that he should be seeking. I truly feel that if he really searched his heart and asked Lord for forgiveness he would recieve it but would be lead by the Lord to step down.
stillwaitingandwatching said...
Brian Miller + President of ECS = New BBC Deacon Chairman
10:26 PM, December 03, 2006
+ or - $500,000.00 to ECS from BBC foundation
It doesn't end does it?
Allofgrace,
You asked who else has forgiven him.
I did, but I didn't see your response? Sorry if I overlooked it....but I still don't see it? If you did post your decision, whats the time stamp on that post? Thanks..
I have been reading these posts for weeks now. I would encourage all of you to read Barna's newest book about the future of the church in America and what the Spirit of the Living God is doing to move the Body on to really impact this world.
What is happening at BBC is a sympton of the endemic sickness that is inherent in the institutional church. God is doing a new thing and those who have stepped out of the mess that has become the western church are experiencing the reality of freshness that is the Body of Christ which is the presence of Christ on earth.
The ekklesia is relationship not form and function. All these disputes are inherently flawed because they are trying to be settled through malfunctioning and flawed forms and paradigms. In a generation, the church is going to look completely different than anything that we have today.
Quit "going to church" and become the church. I was a part of this flawed system for 45 years, even went to Mid-America Seminary when it was down on Poplar, have served on staff at churches and finally came to the realization that the paradigm that has become what is called the "church" will never be the presence of Jesus as His Body on earth.
Anytime it takes millions and millions of dollars to foster the bureacracy and the institution itself when there is so much that could be don through relationship and love,then something tragic has happened to what Jesus died to give birth to. Is Jesus really pleased with million dollar edifices, exorbitant salaries, and operating expenses that could solve the poverty problems, and the injustices not just there in Memphis, but all over the world?
I think all of the discussions here are irrelevant on both sides because they only serve to foster the continuation of what is already severely wrong.
Please think about it.
First Vice Chairman is Ted Minor.
I don't know the rest.
I know I said I was leaving but I had to come and see how everyone reacts to the morning service, and it is just as I told my wife it would be. Nothing is good enough for you people, it was not genuine or sincere (I believe someone wrote).
I for one forgive the Pastor and I believe his sermon today was great!!!
The one thing that bothers me is this; our Pastor knew he offended some and what he did took alot of guts, and I respect that. But what I cannot believe is the hate, selfish, self serving filled words of the membership on this "chat-blog" It is an embrassment to know that some members of the great BBC act this way.
Commence the slamming of me, I do not care.
and Ace, you are alright with me on this blog (#3)
Flatfoot,
Thanks for the post...I agree with everything you've said...it's so true.
And thanks for being #3...maybe there are more people here than I thought.
ju said...
Good point however I'm not God and have faults of the flesh like everone else. One of them is I can't forget what he's done and can't submit my family to his authority as such in good faith.
I don't believe this is necessarily a fault of the flesh. On the contrary, sometimes, it is necessary to not trust the person who has wronged you.
Forgiveness is one thing. Trust is another. We know that Gains cannot be trusted so as to put ourselves under his authority. He has asked forgiveness and he has received it. But his behavior has changed little to none.
Here's a drastic example but it hits the point just the same:
A man abuses your child. He asks you to forgive him. You do. Now, do you trust this man by giving him access to your kids again? It would be a mandate to you as a parent to NOT trust him again!!!!! Forgiveness or not, you could not in good conscience hand your kids over to him again.
This would not be considered a fault of the flesh!!!
A.
stillwaiting, read up, there are statements from people saying exactly as I wrote. I am not going to name anybody becasue I am not in a confrontational mood.
Many say that they will forgive but not forget. I pray and depend that the Lord my God will forgive and forget all my sins once I ask him for forgiveness.
ace,
3:02pm, 3:23pm, 3:45pm, 3:54pm,6:54pm, 7:05pm, 7:41pm
Andrew: Bad pronoun reference on my part. HS apologized for the way the church had treated SG.
Hisservant 1:
Diana isn't far off, at least as far as Rob goes. Dr Gaines virtually ignored Rob until he learned Rob was leaving, then he was his best friend all of a sudden. In fact, that's exactly how we treat dirt-we ignore it until it falls out from under our feet then we cling to it like crazy. Call Rob and ask him. I can't comment to David Smith directly.
THAT DOES IT! I told my husband that the apology about Whitmire was misleading and that now the clueless church members will think "Oh. Is THAT all that happened? Big deal. Why all the fuss?" That's exactly what transpired. And since when has Jim Whitmire's son engaged in any trash talk?!! He has shown much restraint in his posts and others have actually been more forthcoming about the details of the humiliation Jim Whitmire suffered.
I DO forgive Dr. Gaines for the things he apologised for. It was a step in the right direction and I hope he has learned from these mistakes. Time will tell.
We still need MAJOR structure changes and the congregation should demand updated bylaws approved by the church body.
Mark S.
Did I understand you to say in the CC meeting that Gaines had agreed to meet with you this week? Will David Smith, Bryson, and Mark D. be there?
kingdomrevolution,
Brian McClaren I presume?
Flatfoot,
You do understand that humans just don't work that way correct? Of course the Lord will forgive and forget. The issue is human people aren't designed that way. Would that it be that the Lord made us that way but he didn't.
Mark, I talked to home about an hour ago. As far as we know, the situation is still unresolved. That's not airtight, but since we've had multiple contacts with them this week, I'd say it's pretty up-to-date info.
JM
kingdomrevolution said...
I have been reading these posts for weeks now....
10:36 PM, December 03, 2006
------
Interesting...I agree with you that the church buildings and the people, lost or saved, have become the church as we know it ; the building, it's organization, budget, mission statement, committees and the like have become what we know as being called the Church.
My thought is to fix it or seperate from it. (the building and structure NOT the body)
The body needs to fellowship with the body - but does it need a christian country club environment or coffee bar?
I could but won't go on...I'm sure this is an issue that will further define and divide.
I love you each and pray that we will all keep it simple: Love God, share His love with others, do good works, bear the fruit of the vine through the power of the Holy Spirit, and grow, grow, grow.
Good evening to you all,
Andrew
BTW ju,
I realized that I may have seemed like I was contradicting you. I was actually trying to back you up on the decision you made about not putting your family under SG's authority.
If I offended you, I'm sorry. I really didn't mean it that way. =)
A.
Ju:
You do understand that humans just don't work that way correct? Of course the Lord will forgive and forget. The issue is human people aren't designed that way. Would that it be that the Lord made us that way but he didn't.
Reply: You are correct, so why even try to be like the Lord??
No you didn't Housewife. Your comments were well taken.
Hisservant 1:
I should also add regarding Rob that if you talk to him, you should ask about how his resignation was handled. Ask if he was pressured to say certain things or not say certain other things. You'll find the answer is yes to both.
Allofgrace,
kingdomrevolution sounds like an emerging man doesn't he?
That is probably the difference between you and I. I'm not trying to be like the Lord. I'm trying my best to be my sinful self. I know there's no hope for me other than to submit myself to Him and constantly ask for forgiveness. I can't even come close. The best I can do it attempt to make decisions for my family based on what I know and feel.
Custos,
I believe Rob's resignation letter was rewritten by someone else.
WTB,
Oh yea..big time...just what we need...become "emergent"..he needs to hook up with "pastor"..i think they both have watched the Wizard of Oz way too many times.
I agree with a point that kingdom revolution made, about the millions of dollars spent on "the church". I don't see how any pastor can put his hand in the pot and pull out what our pastor does.
We will not contribute to the Gaines empire. Our tithes go to Focus on the Family and Love Worth Finding.
WTB,
Either that or they've been smokin some of that wacky tobaccy
piglet,
beware of this guy's philosophy though. these emergent types are full of eastern mysticism, iconism, and a load of other stuff
All of Grace
Consider me warned - I won't be buying any crystals.
Piglet said...
All of Grace
Consider me warned - I won't be buying any crystals.
LOL....good.
Andrew,
My brother - actually "NO". Brian Mclaren and I are about as far apart theologically and ecclesiologically (a word?) as could be. I have read some of his books and writing and find them disturbing on many fronts.
In fact, I am very conservative, lean toward a reformed theology and love Jesus with all my heart. I am now serving overseas in a ministry to bring the light of Jesus to those who have never seen it.
My experience isn't born out of bitterness, but awareness and I am not saying that all that institutions like Bellevue do are bad - not at all - I admire the tradition and heritage of Dr Lee and Dr Rogers. I am just know that the church is relationships and like Jesus said - we are to be one as He and the Father are one. I am not saying this can't happen in the institutional, western church, just that it is hard as the systems are about self-preservation. That is why change is so hard as all of you are experiencing.
If the church becomes the outposts in the darkest places - little communities of believers loving each other and being His hands and His feet to the least, then all the other stuff really pales.
It is hard to have koinonia when it is about dinners in the "fellowship" hall and big rallies in the auditorium. It is about the living of life together. In these countries like where I serve, that is all the church really is as it impacts the world.
None of what is damaging the health of BBC would be possible without the system that is flawed in and of itself is all I am saying. Even those who decry the "corporationalism" (ok I know that isn't a word) of the church on this blog, are in fact supporting it by the machinations of elections, "business" meetings, (reckon Jesus and the 12 had those?), and the power struggle, which really is what this is all about to some extent on both sides.
Jesus wept.
Allofgrace,
Based on some of the nonsense being peddled as truth, it seems lots of folks have hit the wacky tobaccy.
Piglet,
I understand your position on your tithes. We have a fundamental problem with financial integrity. A lack of proper controls and accountabililty is a significant part of that issue.
As allofgrace said, beware of the emerging church movement. There are sharks in those waters.
kingdomrevolution,
The church is not without structure though..without some structure there's no discipline or mutual accountability..that's God's way..not mine.
Why not push for a change to the SBC that would limit churches to 2000 people per church? Eliminate Mega Churches by not allowing them to occur. This would keep the business of churching to a manageable state. I believe there are other denominations that do this.
Well, I am saddened that I simply wanted to share some of my heart with other brothers and sisters as here in this country there is little as less than 1% are followers of Jesus and I get labeled a new ager, an emergent, and on and on.
I have prayed for you and this situation every day as I have beein in my prayer closet. I will continue to do so, but I will have nothing else to share.
Now excuse me as I retreat to pull out the arrows, my brothers and sisters.
ju,
most of the Presby denominations tend to start new works once a congregation gets to a large size.
JM,
Thank You for making the call...
Let me ask you this... Does ones character change in a life time?
Was Paul's character changed. Is this what Pastor Gaines was suggesting?
telos
Is there a meeting planned this week with all the parties involved? You made reference to it in the CC meeting.
WTB,
Oh yea..big time...just what we need...become "emergent"..he needs to hook up with "pastor"..i think they both have watched the Wizard of Oz way too many times.
Does anyone else find irony (or sadness) in the fact that someone who labels themself as "all of grace" would say something like this to an innocent brother or sister?
kingdomrevolution,
exactly what kinda church movement or whatever are you connected to?...you say you lean toward a reformed theology...but you don't sound like any reformed person I've conversed with...but you do throw out some of the buzzwords of the emergent/emerging church movement/conversation. You mentioned serving overseas...where exactly?
Piglet,
You may have me confused with another brother named mark. I was not at the CC meeting.
Mark
Telos isn't Mark Sharpe.
Oops. Sorry.
Guys, be nice to "kingdomrevolution." I didn't see anything he said that could in any way compare to anything "pastor" has said.
Welcome, kingdom. Some of us just had a very long day! Forgive us.
NBBCOF
Custos said..."H Smith said that he wanted to ask S Gaines' forgiveness for what he had been put through over the last year."
...then later Custos said...
Andrew: Bad pronoun reference on my part. HS apologized for the way the church had treated SG.
--------
Thanks Custos, but your pronouns were fine.
To restate my comment...
"Harry is asking SG to forgive us for SG's actions and the consequences they brought us all?"
Let me explain...
HS either apologized for his own actions or the actions of others. And, in the context of our situation, seeing the patterns of behavior and position, I believe HS asked SG to forgive the church for making his first year so hard on him.
My response to that is - give me a break!
Certainly, if Steve had lived a perfect life and been a perfect pastor and leader for the last twelve months he would no doubt have encountered people who didn't like him or his decisions or something.
But, I believe the greater amount of difficulty he has found himself in is a clear and direct result of either the trouble he created for himself or the trouble created by the church leadership, or both.
I don't believe Harry Smith would ever say the following outright, but for the life of me and in light of all that is before us, it's the only way I know to interpret his "forgive us" comment.
accountability is wrong.
seeking truth is wrong.
standing with our wounded family is wrong.
following scriptural convictions is wrong.
stating an opinion is wrong.
responding strongly against sin is wrong.
refuting a lie is wrong.
staying to fight for the bride of Christ is wrong.
meeting to discuss the above is wrong.
Andrew
all of grace,
I serve in Thailand with a Christian ministry.
I am "NOT" a part of the "emergent conversation" and find it all to be insipid, and too empty in that I don't see where they stand for anything except "let's all feel good about whatever it is we believe". Relativism's ultimate conclusion.
I regularly listen to teachings over here from America and especially those of John Piper, Mark Driscoll, and Dr Rogers which I listen to through OnePlace.
I am part of the Jesus' church movement. We don't have the church as you do there and I used to live about 4 miles from BBC's very impressive campus.
As you have already hurt me by your labels and misperceptions, please let's not communicate anymore. It is hard enough being in this environment without having a brother verbally assault me. I am truly sorry I wrote anything.
Since I must have offended you with my views, please forgive me. I no longer wish to defend or discuss any of this.
New BBC Open Forum,
Please check your e-mail
kingdomrevolution,
Everybody seems to think they have the solution to the problems of the church(universal)..there are so many movements and differing philosophies claiming to have the answers to what the church could/should be..there have been so many over the last several years it's hard to even keep up with the number of them. I'm naturally going to be suspicous when yet another one comes along. My remark about you and "pastor" was probably too harsh...for that I apologize and ask your forgiveness...but I make no apology for being on guard against every new idea coming down the pike, seeing that much of it is unsound.
NBBCOF,
Thank you. I do care deeply about what is happening to the part of the Bride called BBC as I have many friends who are a part of BBC. And anyone who grew up in the SBC as I did reveres (Or should) Dr Rogers. When I first moved to Memphis, my family and I were members of BBC and one of my daughters was baptized there. I since have served on staff at churches in the Memphis area until called to this ministry I am a part of now.
I will continue to pray as I did this morning for this situation to find resolution and reconciliation soon.
Kingdomrevolution,
Sir, thanks for your comments. Your experiences are very interesting and enlightening.
You are correct in expressing that Jesus is about relationship. I believe that Jesus told his disciples to take nothing but their sandels and their cloaks. We have come a long way since then.
I think you came in to this forum with good intentions and good info. People are tired and in the middle of a battle. As you say, it is about relationship. As you state, new paradigms are always hard to accept, especially when you are tired and need resolution.
May I ask that you form some relationships with some in this forum. Your insight and love of Christ will be apparent in the long run and your wisdom could be helpful.
I hope you can accept this apology. We greatly need your prayers and I humbly ask for your thoughts.
God Bless - Mark
Greetings in the name of Jesus. I have not posted in a long time. But, after reading a recent post, that truly made me sick to my stomach, I had to respond!
getoveritbbc said:
"It turns out that the real hurt and pain that was caused Jim Whitmire is nothing but the fact that he got his pride hurt a little bit."
I know you said not to respond, however, after reading your arrogant, uninformed and most of all - malicious comments I must respond. Sir or ma’m - whoever you are - you are what the Bible refers to as a FOOL! I am a personal friend of Jim Whitmire and pride is the furthest thing from his reasons for being hurt by SG. AND, Josh Whitmire is anything but a trash talking son - boy, you are 0 for 2 and I'm barely getting started! So far, your record stinks. I would be more cautious before letting my tongue wag without knowing what I'm talking about!
Sounds like you might be Jamie Parker! It is interesting that you say others have been trash talking when you, yourself, use malicious words and rhetoric in your blog. YOU ARE THE ONE WHO NEEDS TO GROW UP! We, who are very much concerned, are in search of truth - nothing more! If you can't handle that - then by all means, don't read this!!
I'm not here to convince you that you are wrong - but I have talked with Jim Whitmire on more than one occasion and know the truth. Whether you choose to believe it is totally up to you. However, after reading your KIND comments (obviously sarcastic), I don't expect that you have a good taste of reality anyway!
I do find it interesting that SG took a year to finally apologize to the church body. BUT, he has yet to apologize to the Whitmire's face to face. To me, he is a coward! His apology is in vain. Biblically, if he has offended someone, he must go to them personally!! And of course, he knows that all too well! If he says he knows that it was wrong to treat the Whitmire's that way, and yet it took a year for him to apologize - any of you out there that are still undecided about SG'S ability to lead Bellevue, should finally be silenced. NO HE CAN'T AND SHOULD NOT!!!
I also find it interesting that you say: "Don't bother responding to me I am done reading all your trash and lies and won't respond. If you guys want to talk about the truth then you need to find out what it is." Sounds a bit cowardly in itself. You come on and spout off your distaste for what you read - but others shouldn't dare to respond to your shameful comments. . . interesting. I hate to say it - but I really don't think you're ready for the truth! So, just bury your head back in the sand where it was in the first place and carry on as you were.
Jim Whitmire, I love and respect you and your family so very much! I know that you are a man of integrity and much humility. I'm sorry that you and your family have had to experience such pain from a church that you have served faithfully for 30 years. But, God knows your heart and so does the church! Thank you for teaching us to 'make His praise glorious!' Thank you for investing yourself in others! May those that come behind you prove as faithful as you are and have been!!
And, one more thing. To getoveritbbc, I pray that God will bless you and that He will grant you peace. We want the best for Bellevue, and whether you like it or not, we have not been getting the best from Steve Gaines! It is time to wake up to that FACT
Wayne
Some of the congregation has awakened to the reality that our church has a set of "lay-elders," a close knit group of men who manage to be appointed to key positions year after year. The rest of the congregation needs to be awakened to this.
While the pastor took a step or two in the right direction there is still a long way to walk... Here are a few important changes that would help during these days of crisis in leadership:
1. Harry Smith, John Caldwell, Steve Tucker, Chuck Taylor, Bruce Brooke, and others who are part of this lay-elder "power block" need to be relieved of positions of influence for a long time.
2. The signing of a public conflict of interest form for any member that has any business contract to provide services for the church. These people should be recused from committees that review bids for their services.
3. Former staff should be allowed to address the congregation and/or the deacon body either in writing or in person without ANY fear of reprisal regarding their exit from BBC. Gaines has confessed to mishandling Dr. Whimire's exit... The congregation now needs to hear from Dr. Whimire--and several others--by letter or in person IN THEIR OWN WORDS. The congregation needs to know how their leadership has treated and is treating ministers who leave the service of our Lord through BBC.
4. The END of heavy handed dealing with ministers, staff, and members. AND the END of signing non-disclosure statements. All ministers who have been pressured or asked to sign such non-disclosure statements should be released from them in writing by BBC!
5. A business meeting in accord with Matthew 18 to deal with the issues that remain related to Mark Sharpe and "the Dream"... AND any other loose ends that should have been dealt with months ago!!
6. A quarterly business meeting with open mike Q&A with each committee chairman.
**The current bylaws mention "monthly" business meetings! When were they changed??
7. A transparent committee selection process.
8. A good updated set of bylaws similar to GBC.
9. No church credit cards. Pay your own way and then turn in an expense report like I do at my job.
10. A whistle blower policy for ministers, staff, and members. Also:
11. Full disclosure of ministerial compensation: salary + benefit breakdown, etc.
12. Much greater congregational oversight of the current budget with a transparent policy for consideration of non-budgeted expenditures exceeding a reasonable amount.
13. Thorough communication with the Congregation for ANY capital project well in advance of any vote. Building prayer buildings or any other type of building should be brought through proper channels to the congregation for prayerful consideration--not coerced "rubber stamping."
By the way, Dr. Rogers taught us quite a bit about prayer. As a matter of fact, I believe all of the current buildings ARE prayer buildings already. He and Dr. Whitmire also taught us quite a bit about worship also... but that's another topic.
14. Bellevue needs to reject Warrenism fully and finally.
15. Congregational nomination of and election of all of the Board of Directors as called for in the 1929 bylaws.
16. Higher standards should be put in place for the hiring of "ministers." Seminary training should be considered a normal prerequisite.
17. An admission the cheerleader tickets are not a legit moving expense and reimbursement to BBC.
18. An admission Dr. Gaines should have never given $25k to FUMC and an explanation of policy changes to prevent a repeat.
19. A policy for open books on Holy land trips and no overcharging of members. Free tickets for the host and wife are fine but not for anybody else.
20. Forgiveness for those in leadership who have allowed this to deteriorate to this point--AND consequences for their actions.
All in my opinion as usual.
Revival, reform, congregational oversight... for there is level ground at Calvary and "he who would be great among you shall be the servant of all."
All of grace,
I am sorry it took so long to respond. The internet is pretty unstable over here and I lost it for awhile. Hope you are still around or will see this tomorrow. It is 13 hours ahead over here so it is Monday afternoon.
Of course, I forgive you, my brother.
I would only ask one other thing. Be skeptical, if you must (and today that seems to be necessary on many fronts), but be kind. Just because you recognized "buzzwords" doesn't mean that the situation is as you think.
If those that know me, saw me being associated with the "emergent conversation" or "new age" it would be as someone said here before, "it would be a coffee-spitting moment".
I covenant to pray each day for your body and the healing to take place and that Bellevue will continue its great legacy and with a more radiant chapter as a church of remarkable reconciliation, forgiveness and repentance.
Wayne...
I think that many would be interested to know whether there has been a full and acceptable apology made in person by S. Gaines to the Whitmires... If not, that surely sheds a much different light on the Sunday AM service.
Telos,
Thank you so much. This is a great opportunity for Bellevue to shine. I admire and treasure the position Bellevue's members and leaders have always had as truth-seekers and fighting for it.
Dr Rogers is and always will be a "hero" to me. I was a young pastor attending the Southern Baptist Conventions in the mid-80's at Dallas and Atlanta and remember standing with my godly father (who has sinced died) and him telling me that there is a man (Dr Rogers) who is making history at a great cost. Those days were filled with controversy and animosity, too, but Dr Rogers was always a gracious and gentle leader.
The SBC was saved because he was a man "born for such a time". Who will be that man in this situation is the question. This must be resolved in the same spirit in which Dr Rogers lived his life. The stakes are too high and the cost too great if not
Just a nibble of food for thought.
Forgiveness is an act of the will, not something of which we are capable or not capable. In other words, our response to someone's apology is, "I will forgive you," or, "I will not forgive you" -- not, "I can forgive you," or, "I cannot forgive you."
"I can do all things through Christ which strengtheneth me." (Phil 4:13)
The process of forgiveness is one of bringing our will in line with the Father's will. He has commanded us to forgive seventy-seven times (or seven times seventy) when we have been offended by another. We will either obey Him or we will disobey Him.
As for Harry Smith's apology on behalf of our congregation for what Bro. Steve has been put through for the past year, although I think the timing may have been a bit poor and, yes, I agree with the two-steps-forward/one-step-back analogy -- I am grateful someone said it to him. I have said it to Bro. Steve and his wife and his in-laws myself. I am grieved and embarrassed over the witch-hunt that has been executed at the expense of this precious family. As a church body, we had the opportunity to embrace, love unconditionally, and extend a long measure of grace -- and instead, we blew it, in my opinion. We have the opportunity yet again -- to forgive as we have been commanded and to forgive as we have been forgiven, blanketly and unconditionally -- yet there are many who post here who are still untrusting, and yes, unforgiving, and those who are still looking under every seat in the balcony for the next victim or rabbit to chase.
Much has been said about "the underlying problem at Bellevue" and much speculation has been offered in these past weeks and months about exactly what that problem is that is at the root of all of this. The problem, in my estimation, is not Steve Gaines or Harry Smith, nor is it Mark Sharpe or Jim Haywood. The issue is not blogging or off-campus meetings, nor is it meetings behind closed doors or donations to ECS and MABTS.
The problem is an unwillingness to forgive as we should.
Until we do, Bellevue will remain the same.
Maybejustmaybe,
I agree with you on many of your points. I was reading your post as Chuck Swindoll was on the radio in the back ground. He states these three things:
1. Fractured relationships begin to be healed when we are willing to hear and admit the truth.
2.Reconcilitation continues when we quit controlling and manipulating the other person.
3. Final relief comes when we release all resentment and take ownership of our responsibility.
This sermon can be heard on insight.org.
Peace - Mark
maybejustmaybe...
The problem is the inability of the leadership to see the gravity and serious nature of the problems that exist. You need to quit judging who forgives and who does not.
The real root of the problem is not an unforgiving spirit, but it began when the leadership, in violation of scriptural command, blocked brother Mark Sharpe's attempt at following the biblical steps found in Matthew 18.
Though you may think it is a small issue, the "dream" episode has never been resolved biblically. It will ALWAYS be there to undermine the authority of Gaines as he speaks to the congregation because it was the first "elephant in the room." Problems need to be faced--not swept aside or put under the rug. Truth does not fear light.
The church once operated with complete trust in the pastor. That has been demolished and it calls for a new day of accountability.
I hear your opinion... but I can read the Bible.
Luke 17:29 "If your brother sins, rebuke him, and if he repents, forgive him. If he sins against you seven times in a day, and seven times comes back and says, 'I repent,', forgive him."
1 Cor. 7:10 "Godly sorrow brings repentance that leads to salvation and leaves no regret, but worldly sorrow brings death."
Luke 2:35 "Produce fruit in keeping with repentance."
My mentor taught me that this is what Godly sorrow looks like:
confess=admit to God, and come into agreement with Him that what you did was sin.
repent=turn from and forsake the sin, and by God's grace endeavor to not commit it again.
restitution=go to the one/s you sinned against, admit your sin, without qualifiers or excuses, ask forgiveness, and restore what needs to be restored ie: if you stole, pay back with interest, etc.
maybe and others.....
The problems are not forgiveness, BBC is a forgiving people and a people seeking to walk with the Living Christ, so for you to "demand" forgiveness and the proof thereof on this blog, is disingenuous as best.
Even if Mark Sharpe was wrong from the very beginning, there are still problems with lying, misappropriation of funds and attempting to cover it up, intimidation tactics, ungodly behavior from the pastor on down thru the leadership chain, malicious slander of members and staff, coercion of present staff, failure to follow scripture as REQUIRED in Matthew 18 and we go on and on..
If you require "proof" of forgiveness from those of us who still have questions that have been unanswered by the plastic CC, then you will be waiting a while for we have only to answer to God Almighty for our forgiveness or lack thereof. Especially since the church does not believe in honoring the scriptual demand of Matt 18., how are we to know that the politial tribute from Steve Gaines is not another ploy to silence the masses. I was appalled that Harry Smith had the gall to seek forgiveness from the "church" for the mistreatment of Steve Gaines when Harry Smith should be on his knees seeking forgiveness for the charade he hosted as a "Communication Committee". I am also personally offended at the condescending attitude and smirks by Steve Tucker during the CC meeting yesterday. Should I demand an apology from him? Do you think he would seek my forgiveness for offending me? I doubt it, for you see, I do not believe he cares what I think or how I feel. That was my first meeting and I sure did get a good look at some folks that were supposed to be there to "meet" with us. Shallow at best! So "maybe", you are wasting your time, as we did yesterday.
kingdom revolution,
In light of what the Lord has convicted me of this morning, I confess to you my brother my failure to observe the command to "be slow to speak". I obviously bruised your spirit without cause, and without excuse, which is sin. I also sinned by failing to prefer my brother over myself. I ask for your forgiveness.
If it were in my power to take back my words I would, but since I can't I'll just admonish my brothers and sisters to not take part in my sin by adopting the same attitude, and to accept you as a dear brother, loved of God, for whom Christ died.
If I have caused anyone to stumble, I ask you to come to me and make it known so that I can make it right.
I'm going to take a day or two away from blogging...my body, soul, and spirit are in much need of rest and restoration. Pray for me as you are in my prayers.
Rom. 8:35-39 "Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? Shall trouble or hardship or persecution or famine or nakedness or danger or sword?.....No, in all these things we are more than conquerers through Him who loved us. For I am convinced that neither death nor life, neither angels nor demons, neither the present nor the future, nor any powers, neither height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God that is in Christ Jesus our Lord."
Blessings.
choice_is_yours,
As I heard Dr Rogers say many times, "There are things that we can't be dogmatic about, but there are certain things that we better be bull-dogmatic about". I fully embrace and agree with the beliefs you asked about and always have. I don't believe that anything that I previously posted in any way controverted those core essentials.
I looked at the website you linked to and am not sure exactly from where that originated, but don't believe it is Thai. Thailand has a unique conglomeration of religious thought, all of which is truly syncretic and extremely convoluted. Though Buddhism is the religion most conspicuous in name, it is nevertheless not really practiced in the region of Thailand that I am now living in. Here the beliefs of the people are much more animistic, and spiritistic with all its attendant thoughts.
As a good example of this is that tomorrow is the revered King's birthday here. This will be a holiday (holy day) here. To the Thai, he is the embodiment of the 5 Precepts and is worshiped on a level that would make the Catholic Marian worship seem shallow.
Something that is not really understood (I still am trying to fit into the context), is that the Thai mind in no way thinks as the western mind. To explain to a Thai, whether a practicing Buddhist or not, the truth of the gospel would not even begin to compute with him. Of course, the power of the Holy Spirit and His convicting work can not be excluded from the equation. It is just different. There is a reason that there have been missionaries in Thailand for over 150 years and still there is less than 1% of the population that even claim Christianity as a belief system.
The workers here are facing a dark world of spiritual assault that is incomparable with most any other country, even others in Asia. And the real danger can be that it is so insidious in that on the surface Thailand is this place of beauty and happy, friendly people, but underneath that facade is something totally different.
I doubt others on this blog are interested in this discussion, so I won't go on.
So, to answer your question, I am daily in relationship with Thai people and through these relationships are seeing the light of the gospel make some headway in the darkness. Trust me, trying to win an argument with a Buddhist on a website would prove much more frustrating than the conflict and battles you are fighting there in Cordova at BBC.
Please pray for all those who are working in this place.
all_of-grace,
If you are still around - thank you for your kind and gracious words. I do understand the stress and weariness that comes in times like you are facing. Having been in the church and the Southern Baptist church my whole life, I have experienced my share of conflict. It is never pleasant, but can be edifying when all seek the heart of Jesus first and the love each other as the Father first loved us.
I have been and will continue to pray for each of you.
It is now getting late here. I have been up all day while you all got what rest you could in light of the circumstances you find yourselves in.
I will pray for you all as I retire to bed and will again tomorrow just as I covenanted that I would. My heart grieves for the pain the Body of Jesus is suffering there today.
May the God of all comfort, comfort you.
This is my first time posting because I have tried to stay out of this. While I agree with some of the issues brought up by this blog, I can no longer sit on the sidelines and tell you that I agree with how the people on this blog have handled themselves. I would like to say that I was on your side until yesterday for 2 reasons.
1. I attended the CC meeting for the first time. It appeared to me as a first time attendee and basically a “nobody” at BBC that the people who were there to ask the CC questions were like a mob or a union. I cannot believe the venom and hatred that came out of so many of the people who asked questions. And, did you all think that the CC would answer your questions when all you did was hurl accusations and hatred at them. This was the worst display of Christianity I have ever witnessed. I am ashamed to be a part of you. Again, I repeat, I had some of the same concerns, but the mob like attitude that came across from those asking questions has led me to believe that the CC was the Christ-like mature acting people. Many of those that blasted the CC, called them liars and garbage, I have to say, I unfortunately have lost all respect for and could never support such behavior. It doesn’t matter if you are right, if you do it the wrong way!
2. My second reason I can no longer be a part of this is the most important reason. I am grieving today. You may ask why? Well, let me tell you about my friend MK. MK and I have been close for many years. MK is not a Christian. I have been steadfastly witnessing to MK for probably 4 years! I have wept over MK! Pleaded with God for MK’s salvation! And, have shared the Gospel with MK countless times. Since September, I have sensed a softening of MK to the Gospel. MK has been asking questions! I have never seen such brokenness in MK’s life toward the things of God. MK even told me recently that she was open to the things of Christ. I was praising the Lord. You cannot imagine how I wept as I was seeing God break MK of her pride and sinful nature. Well, this is why I grieve. MK found this blog! She spent the entire week reading every part, unknown to me. And, now, …..my heart is so broken……and I can hardly work today…..because MK told me last night that she never wants to be a Christian because of what she has witnessed on this blog. MK is going to spend eternity in hell because of the behavior she witnessed on this blog!! Please tell me, it is not true! I am so broken over this. So broken! My heart grieves that what she has witnessed on this blog is what caused her to make the decision to reject Jesus and go to Hell.
So I ask you all, please stop this! That is all I can say right now! Please, please stop. If you ever had a reason why people disagree with this blog, I guess now we have living proof in my dear friend MK!
custos wrote:
The following passage may be rather applicable given today. Our minds always try to connect ideas and things we observe--sometimes we're right in assuming connections and sometimes we're wrong. I lay no claim to being right or wrong here, but this following passage is at least of some interest:
Jeremiah 6:14-19
14They have healed also the hurt of the daughter of my people slightly, saying, Peace, peace; when there is no peace.
15Were they ashamed when they had committed abomination? nay, they were not at all ashamed, neither could they blush: therefore they shall fall among them that fall: at the time that I visit them they shall be cast down, saith the LORD.
16Thus saith the LORD, Stand ye in the ways, and see, and ask for the old paths, where is the good way, and walk therein, and ye shall find rest for your souls. But they said, We will not walk therein.
17Also I set watchmen over you, saying, Hearken to the sound of the trumpet. But they said, We will not hearken.
18Therefore hear, ye nations, and know, O congregation, what is among them.
19Hear, O earth: behold, I will bring evil upon this people, even the fruit of their thoughts, because they have not hearkened unto my words, nor to my law, but rejected it.
(repeated for emphasis)
"Our minds always try to connect ideas and things we observe--sometimes we're right in assuming connections and sometimes we're wrong. I lay no claim to being right or wrong here..."
Now, custos. Don't be a wimp. Jesus wants us to be either hot or cold, not lukewarm. Didn't you also write,
"Further, the idea that being Christlike equates to just loving and sitting quietly by is obnoxious. Jesus wasn't a kindly grandmother. He spoke and laid low a mob, He ran despicable thieves from the Temple, He single handedly dealt with men possessed of demons. When He comes again He will lay low the nations with the Sword proceeding out of his mouth."?
Don't just show us the Sword, go ahead and swing it.
healme,
I understand your grief as I have a personal family member who is as lost as a goose and has been for many years, he was receptive to Dr Rogers and was beginning to attend under Steve Gaines when he started questioning some of the "things" that were said. He personally emailed Dr Gaines and was given a set of predetermined talking points. This dear family member has turned his back because of STEVE GAINES, not this blog. He agrees with this blog. He has seen what I have gone thru and knows that the Lord I serve has made a change in me and has seen it, but he has also seen my pain at the grief that Steve Gaines and his team of millionare business men have bestowed upon the membership. This man gave to the church, was willing to listen and at times he responded somewhat, even volunteered for Katrina relief, but is lost, lost, lost!!!
My point is this, I see what you are saying, but from a different viewpoint. I will also say that if this person is looking for an excuse NOT to be saved then that is what MK has found - another excuse. Dr Rogers said that even if there was no heaven or hell that he would still be a christian, because there was no better way to live. WE are in pain over this situation, but tell your friend that this pain is worth the battle we are enduring, because there is "no better life" than being a Christian and HE who saves is the Only giver of life, even with struggles, HE is there. As I go, my family member sees me cry out to God for direction and sees me ask the Lord to show me any impurities in my heart that would stand in the way of his salvation and the resolution of this situation. This is my witness, that he will see that Steve Gaines, or any other christian is not the answer, but the LORD is.
healme,
I grieve with you over your friend, MK, and I will covenant to pray with you daily for her salvation. Please allow me to apologize for anything that I, personally, have said that may have been offensive or led MK (or anyone else, believer or nonbeliever) astray. I beg your forgiveness. May we all continue to put our hearts before God and ask Him to cleanse us from any impurities that are not like His Son. May we all strive to be more like Jesus every day.
Does any human being really have the power to prevent someone from being saved?
--Mike
I would again remind people who visit this site. There are those who hate for truth to come out and they will engage in any kind of rhetoric to spew venom at those who are seeking the truth.
I can tell you this, it is God who judges the heart and I can say for certain that my heart is pure, and I do not pray daily, I do not pray weekly, but I pray almost constantly because I am so grieved that lost people come here and have to read the venom before they can get to the truth.
I do not believe that the vast majority who post here are responsible for the venom that comes out. It comes mostly from those who blindly follow thier shepherd to the slaughter, but some here who are blind read a few comments without knowing the background, then jump to the conclusion that everyone who posts here is full of hate and venom.
I believe that I speak for most of you here that if the pastor and "his gang" had been open and honest from the start that this blog would never have any reason to exist.
I also believe what the Bible says.
The Bible says that when you search for me with all your heart you will find me. I am not going to let anyone here cause me to have a guilty concience because of anything they say on here. God alone will convict me when I have said or done anything that I need to repent of.
God help anyone that will not stand for truth. I would be afraid to lay my head on my pillow at night with unconfessed sin in my life.
"And if it seem evil to you to serve the Lord,choose you this day whom you will serve; whether the gods which your fathers served that were on the other side of the flood, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land ye dwell: but as for me and my house we will serve the Lord. Joshua 24:15
Mike B,
No,
However, read Romans Chapter 2, and look closely at vs. 24.
Then post your thoughts.
(I am using no sarcasm, baiting or taunting on this post)
Mike Bratton said...
Does any human being really have the power to prevent someone from being saved?
I whole heartedly agree with the above comment. God is not going to send someone to hell because of something you or I did.
healme,
I am truly saddened to hear of your friend MK. I will pray for the both of you, and I'd ask everyone else who calls themself a child of God to do the same. The Lord still moves mountains, and he wants to move this one too.
You post has truly pierced me to the heart, and I've come under deep conviction for contributing to this blog. As I write this, I am cut to the quick.
I worked in ministry nearly 60 years, but now I've moved into assisted living where I don't have much contact with the outside world.
I originally started to contribute with the intent of encouraging others to more closely examine God's holy Word, which has been shamefully shredded for personal gain. Only by rightly thinking about God's Word can this ever be resolved, and I had hoped in some small way to encourage that from where I am.
However, as I kept on reading I found myself confronted by feelings of anger, resentment, and even hatred. These are not from God. They have moved me further from Him.
I've read that a lot of the senior members are feeling forgotten by the church. I felt that way a long time before Dr. Gaines was called, and it felt like I was getting involved again. It was a mistake, I see that now.
Satan's biggest victory is that he has rendered us unable to show love to each other. I do believe that while the people here love one another, they simply don't know how to express it, and come across as bitter. It's a shameful witness to a watching world.
Therefore, I must obey the Spirit's leading and leave.
If anyone is listening, I have one final word of advice. Seek God's will. You'll find whatever you look for in the Bible. If you're looking for a verse to prove yourself right, you'll find it. If you're looking for a way to rebuke your brother, you'll find that, too. Whatever selfish motive you're trying to justify, you can do that by misquoting God's Word.
However, if climb the holy hill and truly search the Scriptures with clean hands and pure hearts to discover God's truth, you'll find so much more. You'll find life itself.
I remember when Dr. Rogers was the youngster, and came under attack for wanting to start a TV ministry. A lot of us were suspicious of him for a long time, and were so unfair. It wasn't so much his preaching that won me over but the stand he took. He said you can't really judge a man by the way he acts, but you can by the way he reacts. Adrian always reacted with grace, compassion and love. He reacted like a Christian.
I truly pray that those of us who sat under his teaching will start bringing honor to our teacher. If we don't act like Christians, we certainly won't react like Christians.
healme wrote:
"Many of those that blasted the CC, called them liars and garbage, I have to say, I unfortunately have lost all respect for and could never support such behavior."
You must have been at a different meeting than the one I attended yesterday. Harry Smith accused Mark Sharpe of "questioning my integrity" when Mr. Sharpe questioned the accuracy of something Mr. Smith said. That's not the same as calling him a liar. In fact, if you were listening, Mark apologized if he was misquoting Mr. Smith and said he'd listen to the tape again to make sure.
If your "garbage" label refers to Ray Saba's story about the garbage man, you also weren't listening then either. At no time did Mr. Saba or anyone else refer to Steve Gaines, any committee member, or any other person as "garbage." He likened the words of Steve Gaines to the congregation in Union City on 9/25 to garbage. I have to agree.
There has been bad behavior on both "sides" of this, and I would encourage everyone to carefully consider your words before publishing comments. However, some of the worst behavior I've witnessed came yesterday from Harry Smith and Steve Tucker. Steve Tucker sat in the CC meeting and mocked people and made snide remarks the whole time. David Perdue wasn't much better. Harry Smith, with his blank stare and non answers to every question asked, was pitiful. He's the chairman of the information committee! Then for him to stand in the pulpit last night and pat himself and the other committee members on the back for all their long hours and hard work and brag about all the questions they've answered, was shameful. He said, "Our work is completed." I'm sorry, Mr. Smith, but you haven't even gotten started.
Finally, to see Phil Weatherwax praised, after all we've seen and heard from him -- I'm surprised the tree didn't fall over on all of them. That performance was a disgrace.
"MK is going to spend eternity in hell because of the behavior she witnessed on this blog!! Please tell me, it is not true!"
If MK spends eternity in hell, and I pray she doesn't, it will be because she rejected Jesus as her Lord and Savior, not because of the behavior of any person -- not "us," not Steve Gaines, no one. We've heard this same argument from others, including our own pastor, and folks, it just ain't Scriptural!
NASS
I must comment on one other aspect of yesterday's meetings (as well as other meetings) that I've attended. It concerns the matter of applause after someone says something that the majority in attendance agree with. In all fairness, people are simply exhibiting the same behavior we've been encouraged to display in our worship services. I'm not saying clapping in church is wrong. What I am saying is that clapping during and after every musical number, every baptism, every time the pastor praises someone or says something the majority agrees with, ad nauseum, to me tends to detract from the reverence of the occasion and focus our attention on man, not on God.
If the abbreviated clapping that occurred during the CC meeting was "mob mentality," then what would you call the standing ovations that occurred during, say, the 9/24 "information meeting"?
NASS
I know I am viewed as an interloper here in this forum. As I mentioned earlier, being in Thailand, it is now late and I was already in bed, but I felt impressed (it concerns me how easily we throw around the term, "the Lord said to me)... anyway, I felt like I needed to make a suggestion. What if as an offering of sacrifice this forum was temporarily suspended for a day or two and all involved commit to a fast and time of intense prayer and intercession.
Pray specifically for those who you are upset with, stop talking about them and begin to talk to God on behalf of them, bless them. Make this avenue of verbal release through the internet unavailable. Then, after this time, if there is freedom to reinstate it, then do it.
As I mentioned earlier, I was in the midst of the SBC conventions in the mid-80's and I watched men like Dr. Rogers and David Miller and others, stand for truth and light, but they did it with grace and gentleness and God honored that. Who will be the "man of peace" for Bellevue now?
I recieved an email from the pastor guy that had been posting here, I also got an email from two other people that were on this site.
They said the person who owns this blog deleted a lot of the pastors comments, and did not show the comment was deleted.
If this is true, would the owner of this site, who wants transpearancy in all things be doing the same thing she is accusing BBC of doing.
Would that be hypocricy?
terry, and concerned,
Yes she did delete those posts, which speaks volumes of the motivation behind this blog.
flatfoot,
I sent you an email thanking you for your testimony you shared with me.
I read it in church yesterday. I had numerous people come up to me and told me how your testimony changed them and gave them a renewed faith.
Thanks again.
a word from Dr. Rogers,
You Are Very Important to God
by Adrian Rogers
"And Jesus entered and passed through Jericho. And behold, there was a man named Zacchaeus, which was the chief among the publicans, and he was rich." Luke 19:1-2
In Luke nineteen we read the story of a man named Zaccheus, who was a publican. Now, the publicans were tax collectors, and most of them were crooks; and it is doubtless that Zacchaeus was one of these crooks. But Zacchaeus sought to see Jesus as He passed through his town. Because he was a small fellow and could not see over the crowd, Zacchaeus ran ahead and climbed a tree in order to see Jesus. When Jesus passed by, He looked up and saw Zacchaeus and said to him, "… Zacchaeus, make haste, and come down; for to day I must abide at thy house" (verse 5). And Zacchaeus came down and said, "… Behold, Lord, the half of my goods I give to the poor; and if I have taken any thing from any man by false accusation, I restore him fourfold" (verse 8). Jesus said to him, "… This day is salvation come to this house … For the Son of man is come to seek and to save that which was lost" (verses 9-10).
Zacchaeus Meets Jesus
Now, Zacchaeus doubtless thought that he was not very important to anyone except to himself, and he was out for number one. But he was very interested in this man named Jesus, and he was in for the surprise of his life. I'm certain that three thoughts jumped into the mind of Zacchaeus as Jesus spoke to him in verse five:
• "He sees me." Jesus looked up into the tree.
• "He knows me." He called Zacchaeus by name.
• "He wants me." Jesus asked to go to his house.
Did you know you are very important to God? Let that sink into your heart. The Lord sees you. He really sees you. He knows all about you, and He wants you. Have you ever thought about the fact that He loves us one by one? Even the very hairs of our head are numbered.
There's no need to be out on a limb without Him. Zacchaeus was out on a limb, but oh, thank God, Zacchaeus found Jesus, but only because Jesus found Zacchaeus.
The Faith of Zacchaeus
Now, how did Zacchaeus come to know the Lord? I want you to notice his faith.
He had an intelligent faith. Verse three says Zacchaeus "sought to see Jesus Who He was." Zacchaeus wanted the truth about this man Jesus. It's not enough for you to have a passing relationship with Jesus; you need to see Who Jesus Christ really is.
He had an experiential faith. Being a Christian is not just intellectually believing things about the Lord; it is receiving the Lord. You are not saved by the plan of salvation, you are saved by the Man of salvation; and His name is Jesus. Zacchaeus knew more than facts about Jesus, Jesus went home with him.
He had a transforming faith. When a man like Zacchaeus starts talking about giving away his money (verse 8), perk up your ears because something has happened! This doesn't sound like Zacchaeus; it sounds like Jesus. His life was changed. No longer was Zacchaeus a money grabbling, penny pinching, dishonest, crooked skin flint.
The Grace of God
He had been transformed by the grace of God. Do you know the grace of God? It is a saving grace. Zacchaeus was saved not from hell, he was saved from his sin. The Bible says in Matthew 1:21, "… thou shalt call his name Jesus: for He shall save His people from their sins."
It is a sustaining grace. The Scripture says that Jesus went home with Zacchaeus. That is illustrative of the fact that Jesus Christ abides within our hearts.
Finally, it is surviving grace. Jesus is able to keep Zacchaeus, and we will someday see him in heaven.
That same grace is available to you. When Jesus Christ comes into your life; He will save you, abide with you, and keep you for eternity.
Friend, let me tell you something: if you're out on a limb without Him, one of these days, the devil is going to cut that limb off from behind you, and you're going to find yourself under the sod without God — lost — forever lost.
But you are important to God. He sees you, knows you, and wants you. You don't have to stay out on a limb without Him.
terry, pastor,
As "cjesusnme" said, can you not read the purpose statement on the front page of this blog? Yes, I did delete the posts you're talking about. They were obviously intended only to disrupt the forum, and so I deleted them. Note that your other posts were not. And in the future, any further comments that are attempts to hijack and disrupt this blog will be deleted as well. I have lots of time and everyone's comments have little trashcans under them. I know how to use them -- and I will. If you can't play by the rules, pick up your marbles and go home! Pastor, if you really are a pastor of a church, you are one sick puppy, and I hope you are exposed to your entire congregation (heaven help them all) for what you are.
NBBCOF
cjesusnme,
thanks. He was out of line, but shouldn't the comments have shown deleted as a warning to others.
conchrch,
thank you, I think I remember that sermon. Dr. Rogers had such a way to touch my heart.
SR said:
[Custos said:]"Our minds always try to connect ideas and things we observe--sometimes we're right in assuming connections and sometimes we're wrong. I lay no claim to being right or wrong here..."
Now, custos. Don't be a wimp. Jesus wants us to be either hot or cold, not lukewarm.
SR, what was I thinking? Of course you're right: not claiming that I'm incontrovertibly right is the definition of "lukewarm." ;-)
Also, I prefer to swing my sword when I deem appropriate, not when others do. Safer for everybody that way. Discretion is the better part of valour.
Cheers,
JM
CREDULOUS SIMPLETONS
by Arthur W. Pink (1886-1952)
-----
"A simple man believes anything, but a prudent man gives thought to his steps" (Proverbs 14:15). As we all know, there is a class of people who are so gullible that they believe almost everything they hear, every story that is told, every promise that is made them. They are easily imposed upon, for they do not think for themselves, and never properly outgrow their infancy. Thoroughly unsophisticated, they are ready victims for any retailers of fairy-tales who come along.
But there is another class which, concerning natural things, are more cautious and on their guard; who instead of believing every tale, require proof; and who instead of forming estimates by the first glance of the eye, examine things carefully. This second class to which reference has just been made is, in the affairs of the world, particular, shrewd, not easily imposed upon. We say "in the affairs of the world," for when it comes to things concerning their eternal destiny, many of this very class are, strange to say, most credulous and easily duped. In matters concerning their never-dying souls, they throw caution to the winds, stifle any suspicions they might have, cease to examine things with due care, and allow themselves to be deceived. Let a man styling himself an "evangelist" come to their community, and they will flock to hear him; let him affirm that he believes the Bible to be God's word, Christ to be God's Son, and faith in His blood to be God's way of salvation--and he is at once received as "orthodox." Satisfied thus of the "evangelist's" orthodoxy, they are as ready to receive what he presents, as the poor heathen are to blindly follow what their "priests" tell them.
Or, just as those born in Papist families pliantly yield unto the awful dogma that the Virgin Mary is to be worshiped, so others reared by those belonging to a Protestant denomination which teach that water baptism is requisite in order to obtain the forgiveness of sins, mechanically assent thereto. In like manner, if others sit under a preacher who tells them "All that is necessary in order to salvation is to believe in Christ," thousands of credulous simpletons believe him, to their eternal undoing. Yes, we greatly fear that not a few readers of this Magazine, if they received a letter from the editor addressing them as "Dear Brother" or "Dear Sister," would be likely to exclaim, "Well, if Brother Pink thinks I am a Christian, there is no need for me to worry about it."
Yes, "the simple man believes anything." There is no doubt in the writer's mind that one of the factors contributing much unto the babel of tongues now existing in Christendom, is the gullibility of the public. Almost any man (or woman) can start a new religion today: providing he has a pleasing personality, a forceful delivery, or a sensational message--he is sure of a following.
Again, the conflicting sects already in existence are perpetuated because so many of their adherents blindly accept some man's say so, believing their "church's" interpretation of the Scriptures, instead of prayerfully searching the Word for themselves. Here too we have the explanation of why so many are in a state of mental confusion, knowing not "whom to believe" or "what to believe." They hear one preacher after another, attend this Bible conference and that, read numerous magazines and books; and finding the speakers and writers differing so much, these credulous simpletons know not where they stand. Now this feverish rushing around from "church" to "church," this readiness to accept almost anything that is heard or read, this lightness of belief, is a most dangerous thing.
God has bidden His people to "Believe not every spirit, but test the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world" (1 John 4:1); and "Prove all things; hold fast that which is good" (1 Thes. 5:21). O how great is the need for so doing: never more requisite and urgent than in these evil days. How often does that warning occur in the New Testament, "Take heed that no man deceive you" (Matt. 24:4; Eph. 5:6; 1 John 3:7 etc.) To take things on trust is the height of folly. Emulate those spoken of in Acts. 17:11, "These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so."
"A simple man believes anything, but a prudent man gives thought to his steps." Not only does he measure what he hears and reads by the unerring standard of God's Word, but the prudent man also scrutinizes his own heart, to see if he can find there the evidences and fruits of regeneration and sanctification. He wishes to make sure that the Holy Spirit has wrought a miracle of grace within him. Deeply impressed with the solemnity of eternity, knowing how prone man is to give himself the benefit of the doubt, he dares not to take anything for granted, he cries, "Test me, O Lord, and try me, examine my heart and my mind" (Psalm 26:2).
"A prudent man gives thought to his steps." Yes, he takes warning from the empty profession all around him, and is fearful lest he should prove to be one of the foolish virgins. He refuses to be beguiled by the voice of flatters, who tell him that all is well with his soul. Even though a preacher assures him that he is saved, that satisfies him not. He demands something more than a head-knowledge of the letter of Scripture: he wants to know that the law of God has been written on his heart (Heb. 8:10). And in seeking proof of this he spares no pains, and considers no diligence or effort too great.
"A prudent man gives thought to his steps." Observe well the tense of the verb: it is not that he is concerned about the matter and then takes stock once and for all. No, he continues to be exercised before God as to the state of his soul. The "simple" may rest satisfied with the fact that they "believed on Christ" so many years ago, but the "prudent" are tender about their present relation to God. They realize that nothing but an obedient following of Christ now, a walking with Him now, a communing with Him now, furnishes any satisfactory proof that they were born-again at a certain date in the past.
"A prudent man gives thought to his steps." Yes, he not only examines diligently his heart, but he is deeply concerned about his "steps." Instead of complacently assuming that the warning belongs unto others, he is filled with alarm when he reads that, "There is a way which seems right unto a man, but the end thereof are the ways of death" (Proverbs 14:12). Is it possible that, after all, he may be deceived? Yes, very, very possible; yes, exceedingly likely. Such a soul, truly awakened by the Holy Spirit, can have no rest until he makes sure that he is in that "Narrow Way" which leads unto life, and which FEW indeed find.
Reader, which are you: a credulous simpleton, or a prudent soul that "gives thought" to your going? If the former, may it please the Lord to shatter your false peace, and make you feel your imminent danger. If the latter, may the Holy Spirit grant increasing diligence to "make your calling and election sure" (2 Peter 1:10).
-----
To whom it may concern.
Some have read this information elsewhere but I thought that in light of the "end" of our CC meetings we might tune in to what T. Williamson has to say about Pastor Rule According To The Scriptures. We are not alone in our grief and struggles. The schemes of the Devil are not without willing participants. May we be so informed of what God says that when we read information like this that we are then motivated to search out the Word of God so as to personally be equipped so as to stand and to be ready when asked, to give an answer for our certain hope as we obey God’s Word. As I have read here somewhere and you all seem to enjoy… and I quote thusly and so…
"Today's Bible-thumping bullies and tinhorn tyrants in the pulpit claim more authority for themselves than the Apostles did. In doctrinal matters, the Apostles never said, "You must accept whatever I teach, no matter what, without question, based on my personal authority, because I say so." Paul specifically renounced such grandeur of authority in Galatians 1:8, and we are not told that he ever rebuked the Bereans who searched the scriptures to see if what Paul said was so. Acts 17:11.
What about the claim that a pastor must be obeyed in all his directives over the believer's lifestyle and personal actions? Peter disclaimed any authority over his members' finances and property. Acts 6:4. In 1 Corinthians 16:12, we find that Paul asked Apollos to go to Corinth on a special mission, and that Apollos refused he just didn't feel like going. Apollos was not rebuked by Paul, but he would have been bitterly denounced as a miserable rebel in some churches today, which has embraced the lordship model of leadership, which Jesus condemned. (If Jesus is the Lord and head of each true church, Ephesians 5:23, then who is in charge of a church where the pastor is barking commands and demanding absolute obedience? Has not that pastor usurped the Lordship of Christ?)
Preacher rule is a dangerous heresy that should be rebuked, reproved and opposed whenever it rears up its ugly head within Baptist ranks. Most of the readers of this article will be personally aware of one or several churches that have been wrecked by pastors who attempted to establish a coercive, abusive dictatorship over their congregations. The dictatorial preacher is a self-centered man who caters to his worldly desires under the guise of true religion and feeds his own ego instead of his flock, thus negating by his way of life the central Christian principle of self-denial, Luke 9:23."
FYI for all,
Regarding Sister Pam's Part 11 post: Rusty Shelton was the man who stood up and asked the questions regarding Dr. Rogers and Steve Gaines.
Karen, Do you have the Shelton's contact info you can get to me? You can contact me thru NASS. Thanks!
mom4,
I don't have it - I just know Rusty through youth group a hundred years ago! :) I'm not a hundred, but I feel it today.
Karen
Mom4 posted: HisServant-1 said...
Mom4:
#1: so now you have already moved on to Brain Miller? do you know him??
To know of him is to know that he is more of the same.
REPLY: wow! so you are questioning Brian Miller as a person and as a Christian leader and you have NO personal knowledge of him??? Is that right??
#2: sounds good. you need to go where you are fed.
You need to move on as well, you have no business on this blog, you are part of the problem, you have never made one comment toward finding the truth, you have blindly walked like a mule with blinders on..come on, sir, do some digging! I hope you don't think that this is an "evil" or "hate filled" comment, because it is not intended to be so, I am just fedup with your lack of knowledge on the issues.
REPLY: ourt of line as usual, but I can take it. You have no clue who I am. I have never blindly followed anyone and never will. digging? I have known about this stuff from the very beginning. I have known about this stuff a long time before you and most on here.
move on?? yes, most of Bellevue is going to move on and get busy for the Lord. I am staying at Bellevue. God is doing a mighty work at Bellevue and I for one want to be a part of what He is doing. I know Bellevue is where God wants me and my family to serve and worship.
There were thousands that stood in support of Brother Steve last night. He is my pastor and I thank God for him.
You and the others on here can continue to do whatever you would like, but the rest of us are moving on. I am VERY glad the CC is not meeting anymore.
hisservant said:
"I am VERY glad the CC is not meeting anymore."
Would that be because you served on it? By the way... this is not over... All of those concerned here who are saved will know each other forever. Truth does not fear light. I'm not afraid...
I hope that the leadership realizes that this is not over. Jesus is the head of the church and not a pastor or a deacon. He knows our deeds and He will cleanse His church.
All that has happened here has been due to the violation of ministry principle set by the Apostle Paul:
"Providing things honestly in the sight of all men." Rom. 12:17
That simple, scriptural pattern would have saved us all great pain.
Harry Smith’s own words on September 24th, 2006.
“But there’s some people that don’t like the model. They feel like it is not effective and they feel like there should be more information disclosed to the church. They feel like compensation for some of the staff members should be furnished, along with other financial information. They even believe that some of the expenses of the church are not appropriate. Well I believe in and support the model that our church operates under. And I believe that at any other large church like Bellevue it would be hard to operate any other way. I’ve also heard the comment that a few of the people run the church. My name has been associated with that group.”
“The budget planning committee is selected each year by the pastor. And it’s made up of those who are past and present members of the finance committee.”
“And the first thing that we do when we meet- the budget planning committee meets with the pastor, the associate pastor, and the executive staff- is they sit down and they talk about what kind of increases (are seen with the marketplace) as far as staff increases. And before we leave that meeting, we come up with a percentage number that we give the executive staff to work on for staff increases for the coming year. Now, in the last 3 years, we’ve asked the staff-the executive staff team to use those increases both for merit increases and for cost of living increases.”
“They meet with executive staff to look at possible future staff decisions that might come up in the coming year. And also look at increases for our staff. Once they finish their work, they bring this information back to the Budget Planning Committee- the full committee- where they review and they approve, and of course this becomes a part of our budget.”
“Now, during the year personnel changes that happen as new people are added- that’s always been handled in the past by the office of the pastor. Now, in this past year, that same thing has happened. Those increases and additions are handled the same way. Now, Bro Steve where he came from in Gardendale, they had a committee that helped him with this. And he’s asked the budget planning committee if they would help assist the office of the pastor in the future with any new staff additions and also with their compensation.”
“Now with the staff members that have been hired this year, I kinda just took it on myself, and I went back and I looked at the people who were added and I looked at their compensation, and in my opinion, they all looked very adequate and acceptable. I think they were all fine.”
25+ years and to all,
You are very right - this is not yet over. But I have come to the end of my fight. I love you all and am sorry to say this, but God told me today that I have permission to find another church. Do you know how painful that will be for me? But God knows what he's doing. I am going to be completely out of my comfort zone and I know God knows that. Time to buck up and do what God wants, huh? Good luck to all who remain - the truth will be revealed.
Love, Karen
25+ yrs: hisservant said:
"I am VERY glad the CC is not meeting anymore."
Would that be because you served on it? By the way... this is not over... All of those concerned here who are saved will know each other forever. Truth does not fear light. I'm not afraid...
REPLY: no, I did not seve on it, but I am glad it is over.
I hope that the leadership realizes that this is not over. Jesus is the head of the church and not a pastor or a deacon. He knows our deeds and He will cleanse His church.
REPLY: so if you acknowledge Jesus is in control. then how can you continue to say what is going to happen etc etc. how can you continue to post YOUR lists and YOUR agenda?? those lists of yours are just that, yours. The lists and the things on them are yours and NOT God's.
All that has happened here has been due to the violation of ministry principle set by the Apostle Paul:
"Providing things honestly in the sight of all men." Rom. 12:17
That simple, scriptural pattern would have saved us all great pain.
REPLY: blaming all the hate and horrible things you and others have said on something/someone else. how very very sad. it should not matter what anyone says or does. that should never "make" you or anyone else do anything. you are in control of your own actions. we will ALL be accountable for what we do and there will be NO excuses.
many of you want things done like it was in the past. many of you want things done like they were 30 yrs ago. 30 yrs ago, many of you would have been kicked out of most Baptist churches for the actions you have been a part of and continue in.
hisservant,
may be bart beretta
or
Ace may be bart beretta
or hisservant and Ace may be bart beretta
terry smith wrote:
"I recieved an email from the pastor guy that had been posting here, I also got an email from two other people that were on this site.
"They said the person who owns this blog deleted a lot of the pastors comments, and did not show the comment was deleted.
"If this is true, would the owner of this site, who wants transpearancy in all things be doing the same thing she is accusing BBC of doing.
"Would that be hypocricy?"
Well , that's a scary thought... that anyone is corresponding with this person, but as I said before, I did delete the comments from "pastor" that were intended simply to cause dissent.
As for your assertion that this is somehow akin to anything being done by the leadership at BBC, you're comparing apples to oranges. Nobody's tithes are paying me (nor is anyone else), and although I don't consider myself the "owner" of this blog (your words), I am in ultimate control of it since I've taken on the responsibility of hosting it, so I suppose in that respect, that gives me the right to delete any comment I see fit. Believe me though, it's a privilege I don't take lightly and one I exercise rarely. It's not fair to people, regardless of their opinions, who want to come here and discuss things in a civil manner to have some troll like "pastor" come on here and attempt to hijack it and draw attention to himself.
"He was out of line, but shouldn't the comments have shown deleted as a warning to others."
The only "special power" I have to delete commments is that I can delete anyone's comment. The reason I've been going through and cleaning out the comments that are left after someone deletes his own post is to try to shorten these increasingly long comments pages. The authors could have done the same thing by checking the little box that says "Remove forever." That's all I'm doing. There's been no ulterior motive whenever I've done that. I was merely cleaning up the "litter" left after people delete their comments.
However, in the future, in the interest of being "transparent," I will leave those "traces" in place. Deleted comments will say "Deleted by author" or "Deleted by blog moderator."
Also, please be aware that some people are unable, for some unknown reason, to see the little trashcans below their comments, even when they're logged in. I've had several people ask me to delete their comments when they've been unable to delete them themselves. So just because you see a comment that says the moderator deleted it, does NOT mean I deleted it on my own. I hope this clears up any misunderstanding.
NBBCOF
maybebart posted: hisservant,
may be bart beretta
or
Ace may be bart beretta
or hisservant and Ace may be bart beretta
REPLY: sorry, but no
I did say I was gone and your are right I have posted today. I wanted to respond to a few more things and did not have time before now.
My name is Bart Berretta. A friend of mine, Karen, called to ask if I had been posting on this blog. I told her no, that I have never posted on any blog. She said that someone was speculating that a blogger had posted using my name.
If someone is posting as "maybe bart" - please know that it is not me, Bart Berretta.
Karen said...
mom4,
I don't have it - I just know Rusty through youth group a hundred years ago! :) I'm not a hundred, but I feel it today.
Karen, I prayed for you and your health. This can drag anyone down and sometimes we have to "come apart" before we "come apart". We all need a physical break, or we will end up sick. I will seek the info another way,
Thanks and hope you feel better:)
Brother Steve also asked for forgiveness for ANYTHING he had said or done to ANYONE!
I guess some want him to go down a list of the 1000+ accusations. no big suprise there
He did so in the service I was in. Cannot speak for the other
maybebart said...
hisservant,
may be bart beretta
or
Ace may be bart beretta
or hisservant and Ace may be bart beretta
3:21 PM, December 04, 2006
If you are going to impersonate someone, please get the right spelling of the last name. Bart spells his last name Berretta.
PS: Pastor, you're not fooling anyone.
I don't want to meddle, since I am only a former BBC member from some years back, but would you mind my asking those of you who are stridently opposed to the pastor, at what point would you consider laying down the fight? If the church scheduled an honest, open vote on the present pastor or church leadership?
I have sympathy for your plight. There seems to be an integrity problem with the pastor and some organizational sclerosis that needs fixing. The former may be unfixable and, regardless of the short term resolution, will likely cause problems again. The latter certainly is.
You have my prayers.
I think that most on here know that we must forgive even when the offender has not asked to be forgiven. This is certainly the case for me. With God's help I will not allow myself to be controlled by any person on this earth. I know what unforgiveness and bitterness can do to the vessel that contains it.
That does not mean I have to suddenly start trusting as if nothing had happened. I was certainly aware things were not as they should be with our lay leadership at BBC, however I was not aware of the POWER they have to do anthing they want almost at will.
At first I thought that we needed to get rid of ALL deacons but I have since learned that there are many deacons at BBC that love the Lord and will not allow themselves to be run over.
There are several that I would not allow to serve on any committee or teach until I had seen repentance and a complete change of heart. This could not happen in the twinkling of an eye. Trust has to be earned especially after they have proved that they cannot be trusted.
To the staff at BBC:
My heart goes out to you and I pray daily for you that you will be able to stay strong, pure, and safe. God bless you all.
COPIED ...
Billy Graham and Oprah
Last year I watched Billy Graham being interviewed by Oprah Winfrey on television. Oprah told him that in her childhood home, she used to watch him preach on a little black and white TV while sitting on a linoleum floor.
She went on to the tell viewers that in his lifetime Billy has preached to twenty-million people around the world, not to mention the countless numbers who have heard him whenever his crusades are broadcast. When she asked if he got nervous before facing a crowd, Billy replied humbly, "No, I don't get nervous before crowds , but I did today before I was going to meet with you."
Oprah's show is broadcast to twenty-million people every day. She is comfortable with famous stars and celebrities but seemed in awe of Dr. Billy Graham.
When the interview ended, she told the audience, "You don't often See this on my show, but we're going to pray." Then she asked Billy to close in prayer. The camera panned the studio audience as they bowed their heads and closed their eyes just like in one of his crusades.
Oprah sang the first line from the song that is his hallmark "Just as I am, without a plea," misreading the line and singing off'-key, but her voice was full of emotion and almost cracked.
When Billy stood up after the show, instead of hugging her guest, Oprah's usual custom, she went over and just nestled against him. Billy wrapped his arm around her and pulled her under his shoulder. She stood in his fatherly embrace with a look of sheer contentment..
I o nce read the book "Nestle, Don't Wrestle" by Corrie Ten Boom. The power of nestling was evident on the TV screen that day. Billy Graham was not the least bit condemning, distant, or hesitant to embrace a public personality who may not fit the evangelistic mold. His grace and courage are sometimes stunning.
In an interview with Hugh Downs, on the 20/20 program, the subject turned to homosexuality. Hugh looked directly at Billy and said, "If you had a homosexual child, would you love him?" Billy didn't miss a beat. He replied with sincerity and gentleness, "Why, I would love that one even more."
The title of Billy's autobiography, "Just As I Am," says it all. His life goes before him speaking as eloquently as that charming southern drawl for which he is known.
If, when I am eighty years old, my autobiography were to be titled "Just As I Am," I wonder how I would live now? Do I have the courage to be me? I'll never be a Billy Graham, the elegant man who dr aws people to the Lord through a simple one-point message, but I hope to be a person who is real and compassionate and who might draw people to nestle within God's embrace.
Do you make it a point to speak to a visitor or person who shows up alone at church, buy a hamburger for a homeless man, call your mother on Sunday afternoons, pick daisies with a little girl, or take a fatherless boy to a baseball game?
Did anyone ever tell you how beautiful you look when you're looking for what's beautiful in someone else?
Billy complimented Oprah when asked what he was most thankful for; he said, "Salvation given to us in Jesus Christ" then added, "and the way you have made people all over this country aware of the power of being grateful."
When asked his secret of love, being married fifty-four years to th e same person, he said, "Ruth and I are happily incompatible."
How unexpected. We would all live more comfortably with everybody around us if we would find the strength in being grateful and happily incompatible.
Let's take the things that set us apart, that make us different, that cause us to disagree, and make them an occasion to compliment each other and be thankful for each other. Let us be big enough to be smaller than our neighbor, spouse, friends, and strangers.
Every day, may we Nestle, not Wrestle!
I thought this was nice and seemed applicable,
The song of the humpback whale is one of the strangest in nature. It is a weird combination of high- and low-pitched groaning. Those who have studied the humpback whale say their songs are noteworthy because these giants of the deep are continually changing them. New patterns are added and old ones eliminated so that over a period of time the whale actually sings a whole new song.
There's a sense in which the Christian should be continually composing new songs of praise around the fresh mercies of God. Unfortunately, many of us just keep singing the "same old song." Most certainly, we must repeatedly affirm the fundamentals of our faith. But as the psalmist tells us, the works of God's deliverance in the lives of his people are many and give us reason to express our praise to him in new ways. His works are more than we can count (Psalm 40:5).
So then, why is our testimony of God's saving grace expressed in the same rote way year after year? A fresh experience of the mercies of the cross and of Christ's resurrection power should continually fill our hearts and minds with new songs.
The gospel story never changes. Thank God for that. But the songs of our praise should be endlessly new.
--Martin R. De Haan, "New Songs," Our Daily Bread (Grand Rapids, Mich.: Radio Bible Class), 5 December 1992.
pastor said...
Mike B,
No,
However, read Romans Chapter 2, and look closely at vs. 24.
Then post your thoughts.
(I am using no sarcasm, baiting or taunting on this post)
Such thoughts as are expressed in chapter 2, particularly following ver 24, are part of the reason I asked what I asked.
--Mike
Thank you, David.
NASS
Yesterday morning's meeting was intended to be a serious time, and I had comported myself thusly and resisted the urge to applaud, but when Harry Smith wanted to cut it off at 9:15 and that lady went out to the lobby and came back in carrying that huge "Communications Committee Meeting 8:30 - 9:30" sign -- NASS nearly lost it! That was a Kodak moment!
And yes, it did say 8:30, but they had agreed to start at 8:00 beginning the week before so it wouldn't run so late.
NASS
These are my impressions of the final CC meeting.
They wasted our time with half-truths and political rhetoric. It should be painfully obvious that our church is being rail roaded by this same group. They exhibited arrogance and indifference to the membership that was present. They complain about the fruit but refuse to examine the root. Then they have the audicity to report to the church body that they have completed the work.
Please read Matthew 18 carefully, pay particular attention to the final passage.
Matthew 18:15-17
15 ¶ Moreover if thy brother shall trespass against thee, go and tell him his fault between thee and him alone: if he shall hear thee, thou hast gained thy brother.
16 But if he will not hear thee, then take with thee one or two more, that in the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established.
17 And if he shall neglect to hear them, tell it unto the church: but if he neglect to hear the church, let him be unto thee as a heathen man and a publican.
We are at the final point of vs.17. There has been no attempt, none, to hear the cries of the church. Do not confuse the CC as anything more than a politically motivated attempt to silence the voice of those that are informed.
Where are we to go from this point? It is apparant that there will be no resolve forth coming from our leadership.
but if he neglect to hear the church......
So consider the options that are left and ask the Lord for guidance in what we are to do now.
Is it time to search for a church that is Christ serving instead of self-serving or are those there that believe that we war a good warfare?
stumblingservant wrote:
"In answer to the question of our impressions:
"1. Harry Smith is arrogant and too presumptuous to assume that he speaks for me or can apologize for me (if I need to apologize for anything, I'm plenty big enough to do it myself.)
"2. Why did they pick someone with such limited communication skills to head the Communication's Committee?"
You and I were definitely at the same meetings.
NASS
HISSERVANT wrote to me:
"blaming all the hate and horrible things you and others have said on something/someone else. how very very sad."
REPLY: I have not said anything that was hateful or even close. Hate and horrible things have generally been left behind by posters like you who come here to argue and demean the posters here who are hurting because their church of a lifetime is headed in a direction that is causing them great pain.
I wrote that "All that has happened here has been due to the violation of ministry principle set by the Apostle Paul:
"Providing things honestly in the sight of all men." Rom. 12:17
The truth about the "dream" would have been evident to the whole deacon body if Mark Sharpe would have been allowed to address them. The truth about the credit cards would have been known if the above would have been provided. The truth about the treatment of staff would be known if their were no "non-disclosure" statements signed by them upon exit. And so on...
HISSERVANT SAID:
"We will ALL be accountable for what we do and there will be NO excuses."
REPLY: Amen.
HISSERVANT wrote:
"many of you want things done like it was in the past. many of you want things done like they were 30 yrs ago."
REPLY: Thirty years ago there would have been a business meeting where the priesthood of believers would have respectfully handled the business of the church with open dialogue. The relationship between the leadership and the congregation would have been one of mutual trust and respect. Questions would have been treated with seriousness and respect--and they would have been answered.
HISSERVANT wrote:
"30 yrs ago, many of you would have been kicked out of most Baptist churches for the actions you have been a part of and continue in."
REPLY:
Is that what you want? You want to kick out anyone who disagrees with their pastor? anyone who takes issue with the leadership? any whistleblower from the staff? Many have told members who had questions to just leave. Others have been told to leave repeatedly. I'm glad the Good Shepherd has more patience for His sheep... and they are His.
Hisservant and the gang here to beat us over the head for our disagreements... I can say from the heart that I love all of our family of faith. ALL of them I hope remain. I am not angry. You don't know me. Why are you judging me? I have one Master--and my conscience before Him is quite clear.
If you don't like my list, then please don't read it. It is meant to bring together comments made by various posters here. If the leadership and the congregation truly want peace with truth and honor, then those are my suggestions. I did not say they were floated down from heaven on a parachute... but my agenda has nothing to do with money, power, fame, etc.
I refrained from posting for many days until I saw you and others come here to assault those who were hurting over their church.
I don't like bullies... Running interference is an old habit that I'm not going to break now.
Karen...
Best wishes... in marriage, life, and your future church. You have a good sense of humor and your tea spitting habit is almost contagious.
May God bless you and your husband of 2 months.
Tim...you've got mail.
25+yrs@bbc,
Sorry it has taken so long to respond to your request - long day at work!
You said, "I think that many would be interested to know whether there has been a full and acceptable apology made in person by S. Gaines to the Whitmire’s... If not, that surely sheds a much different light on the Sunday AM service."
As of this morning, Monday, December 4th - there has been NO apology in person to the Whitmire’s. In my opinion, this speaks louder than SG's public apology this past Sunday morning! I am simply amazed at the number of people who are saying "He apologized and the subject should be closed." That is a bit premature, I'm afraid. Yes, we need to be forgiving, however, let's not be naive!! SG has covered this up for a year, made excuses, told others that he did nothing wrong - that it was totally Jim Whitmire’s decision. THIS IS A CHARACTER ISSUE or THE LACK OF CHARACHTER!!
Individuals want to shame those of us who still have concerns. They are simply amazed that after Sunday we still are not trusting Steve Gaines. We must look at these issues at closer glance. You can't always judge the strength of a tree by what you see on the outside or what is simply in plain sight above ground - you must look at the roots! You may see a tall tree that appears to be strong - but if you look at the roots - it could be dry, decayed, weak and ready to fall. We have yet to get at the ROOT of BBC's problem - its LEADER!!
People want us to trust Steve Gaines as if he has been a proven leader at BBC for 30 years -in other words simply take over where Dr. Rogers left off. Interesting enough, however, SG has experience more controversy, conflict and has made a fiasco of his first year as Pastor. How long are we going to be so blind to see that pointing fingers at each other or even at issues will never heal this church until we deal with the leader - STEVE GAINES!!
I pray that God will give us all wisdom and guidance in these most crucial days!
Wayne
I will state for the record that I did not go to any of the Communication Committee's meetings. The reasoning for this is simple....I can tell when something's a load of bull when I see or hear it, and the committee was just that, a load of bull. When reading the recap of the last meeting, I saw a common theme. I don't know. Seems like that was the only answer they gave. It really discourages me when I hear this. I haven't been to church in two weeks, and I'm not really inclined to go back until there is some legitamite progress made toward a resolution.
I thought it was appropriate to have both Harry Smith and Phil Weatherwax on the platform on the same night. This is the picture of Bellevue.
SBC-R, I'm going to say that it's more the responsibility of those joining in here to do a little bit of background before asking one of us to recap this entire ordeal. There are a number of links NASS has been kind enough to post on the front page of the blog that will help get you up to speed. Also, feel free to read back through past threads that cover the back and forth between sides ad nauseam.
Welcome aboard.
Cheers,
Custos
your Love Offering numbers are WRONG both years
that Billy Graham post was great, I would love to have his grace.
Thanks for posting that.
I never have really been that involved in church. I attend every week, worship my savior, listen to the God's word preached and just really enjoy being with people who have the same father.
I try to stay away from the business part of the church, I just figure the ones taking care of the business are more knowledgeable about those things than I am.
It seems the people at the CC meeting, which I did not attend because of the anger I saw in here, would not have accepted too many of the answers anyway. But I did have a great worship experience Sunday.
Thanks for letting me post.
great post Terry
Mr. Deacon,
I deleted my comment containing the Love Offering numbers for an entirely different reason, but suppose you tell us the correct Love Offering amounts for this year vs. last year. I mean, it's a bit lame to just say, "You're wrong" without offering a correction.
NASS
terry smith wrote:
"It seems the people at the CC meeting, which I did not attend because of the anger I saw in here, would not have accepted too many of the answers anyway."
Did you really come by the meeting room? Or are you just assuming there was "anger" in the room? I saw lots of friendly, smiling faces when I walked in before the meeting began, and other than the smirks and snide comments from Steve Tucker and David Perdue, I didn't see any anger. Well, Harry Smith seemed to be getting a little hot under the collar near the end, but all in all, mostly what I witnessed as the meeting progressed was a strong sense of hurt. People are hurting, and the pastor and staff really don't seem to care. At the least, they don't see it.
One point you made I agree with. I've always said the less you know about what goes on in any church, the happier you are in that church. Or as they say, "Ignorance is bliss."
Unfortunately, the truth began to become apparent almost a year ago and hit me in the face almost three months ago, so now I can't ignore it. If I could have ignored it, I'm sure I'd still be a happy camper, too.
NASS
newbbc,
Where do we go from here? I know there will always be differences of opinion, but that Billy Graham post really made an impact on me.
In my opinion, Billy Graham has done more, showing the love of Christ, than any person I have ever heard of, other than the heroes of the bible, obviously.
Is it wrong for me to just ignore these differences, and just try to be nice, showing the love of Christ?
I know Dr. Gaines is not going to be perfect, but I just try to look beyond those things. I know he is a christian, so I believe God will change him in the areas (like we all do)he needs to improve.
Hisservant,
Your attitude is a perfect representation of why so many have a problem with the Bellevue leadership. When folks ask honest questions they get attitude for daring to make an inquiry. I have never seen so many men work so hard to create the appearance they have done something wrong. Your attitudes invite our skepticism. Why not try modeling Christ's response when Thomas was skeptical?
Instead of taking glee NASS was wrong, instead of immaturely SHOUTING, why not just state the correct figures for the offering?
NASS said it was her "understanding." She did not swear a blood oath her figures were correct. She did not deserve a snide post.
You treat our church members as if they were your enemy. Perhaps that is indeed how you see them.
And for the record, I heard with my own ears one of the new deacon officers say the 2006 love offering was $1.3 million. He said it to a group of men I was with. He said it twice for emphasis. He went on to say roughly $300,000 was cash and the rest pledged. He said this the very day the offering was taken. I still have the note where I wrote it all down.
Am I to believe I cannot trust our new deacon officers?
Wayne,
Your post was one of the most important posts that I have seen in a while. I hope that many read it carefully and understand the full gravity and implications of it.
NASS said...
If the abbreviated clapping that occurred during the CC meeting was "mob mentality," then what would you call the standing ovations that occurred during, say, the 9/24 "information meeting"?
NASS
11:15 AM, December 04, 2006
~Nicely stated and good point.~
-------
HisServant-1 said...
your Love Offering numbers are WRONG both years
11:15 PM, December 04, 2006
~OK - so what are the real numbers?~
Andrew
25+,
You are exactly correct. The pastor said, "...Donna and I sat down on the day Dr. Rogers was buried, back last November, we talked with Jim and Linda, I told him then that I was sorry for the way all of it happened, I took full responsibility for that..."
The sermon is available for download on itunes and you can also hear it on the church website. I downloaded it and transcribed the apology portion.
Hey folks it is me,Pastor, or otherwise as you like to call me pastor of darkness.
I recieved this email from a friend of mine, who is also a pastor (whom I believe is much more thoughtful than I am).
Just wanted to post it, because I think it makes a decent point.
I met Dr. Adrian Rogers at his PTI meeting in TN in the August just before his home going. However, I have been learning from him since 1996 though his writing and preaching. I was a “nondenominational” (i.e. Pentecostal) pastor who was being led by the Lord to the Baptist way but being pulled, by people, toward a narrow-minded extremism. It was the preaching, teaching, and writing of Dr. Rogers that saved me from extremism. Although I did not have “conversations” with him I have heard him preach so many times that I feel that I know him. I called him my pastor and thanked him in letter for his encouragement. I wept and I weep for our loss of him. There was a calmness, a certainty, a settledness about this man that encouraged me to be a better man and a better pastor. The only explanation I have is that the “Spirit of the Lord” was upon him.
I have wept, but if Dr. Rogers knew what was happening at his dear pastorate I believe he would weep. There are forces within and without that seek to rip apart the body of Christ at Bellevue. I don’t know Dr. Steve Gaines and I don’t need to. Here is what I do know. Dr. Rogers was a great man who had great men around him. If half of the things that www.savingbellevue.com is accusing Dr. Gaines of are true then Dr. Rogers was not the man I thought he was. In order for Dr. Gaines to do the things he is being accused of he would need accomplices. Do we really think that those men whom Dr. Rogers and the congregation of Bellevue have put their trust in are that carnal and weak? I don’t. Do we really think that Dr. Rogers was a poor judge of character and far off from the will of God when he said, “I knew that Steve Gaines was supposed to be the next pastor of Bellevue?” I don’t.
Bellevue, do you remember what your esteemed former pastor taught you about authority? “You must be under what you are supposed to be under before you can be over what you are supposed to be over.” Here is another quote, “God has instituted three things the home, the church, and the government, and he has put a human head on each of them.” I am an outsider who has read the reports, blogs, and web sites. Since I first heard of the trouble I have prayed everyday that God would put a hedge around Dr. Gaines and Bellevue.
I see three groups in this trouble.
Group 1 is a group of disgruntled people who are hurting because they deeply miss Dr. Rogers and they have allowed their pain to sour their souls. Your whole life is consumed with your vinegar. Everywhere you go you talk about it. You bring it up in every conversation. You go from door to door, from phone call to phone call, from person to person trying to enlarge your constituency. Hear me—who could have followed Dr. Rogers and pleased you? Answer: no one. Why, because he was a man without compare in his generation. Are the meager money and the un-Rogers like tendencies of Dr. Gaines enough to make you forget that what you do to Bellevue you do to Christ? It is the local New Testament Church. It is the Body of Christ. If you oust the pastor, divide the body, wound tender souls, and shame the name of Christ will you then be happy because you won the argument? Do you really think that what you are trying to accomplish can end well? I plead with you to understand that Dr. Gaines is not Dr. Rogers. That is the way God intended it. Like it or not Dr. Gaines is where he is because God has put him there. You may not like the choices he makes but they are his choices to make—not yours. Have you considered the pressure and anguish your words and actions have brought to his family? Do you care? Do you not realize that every moment of every day his heart, mind, soul, and body, are in turmoil over all of this. Do you not care for him? If you succeed in criminalizing him will you then have a party and rejoice amidst the rubble of a once great church? You need to deal with the real issue—you miss Dr. Adrian Rogers as do I. Before you make another derogatory statement or publish another mis-characterization find a surrendered place of prayer and ask yourselves what Dr. Rogers would he say if he were here? Here is something he said, “Small people find it easy to criticize what other people do.” Is it easy for you?
Group 2 is a group of people in the middle. They are teachers, church members, visitors, and workers—Christians. They couldn’t care less about the controversy however, they have people in their lives that do care and those people will pressure them to choose sides. People that are productive in the body of Christ or will be one day are now being pressured and pulled. Many of them will ultimately be offended, ostracized, and uninvolved in the work of Christ—all because of a needless controversy. Ultimately this group will suffer the most. They just want to go to church, teach their classes, sing in the choir, be a deacon, take up the offering, be excited about their church, and just love the Lord, love the pastor, and love people. But, that is no longer possible. Deacons who would have supported the pastor will become antagonist because of their forceful friends. Sunday School teachers who helped forward the mission of the church now become stumbling blocks because of lifetime loyalties. Others who never suspected the pastor or leadership of any evil will have their minds poisoned with the seeds of doubt and discord. They are now thinking and doing things, left to their own walk with God, they would have never said or done. They know that if they are friends with some people they can’t be friends with others. The church is supposed to be the one place where human loyalties and affections don’t alienate—but it now happens that this is no longer the case. Some who might one day become the homes of preachers, teachers, missionaries, godly mothers and fathers will feel the uncomfortable pressure, and if it continues long enough, they will find something else to do on Sunday. Those who stir the controversy will give an account for these poor souls.
Group 3 is the pastor and those who support him. Since when was it unspiritual to support the pastor? But, now all those who do will be labeled by the “bitter and gall” group as compromisers, spineless, and sell outs. Because of the “self-righteous” they will begin to question their own faith. Their pastor is a man who preaches the Word; he is faithful to his wife, family, and his Lord. He probably will do some things differently than they would do, or even Dr. Rogers would have done. Everyone has their own perspective but he is the pastor he is doing the best he can and he isn’t committing sin. He loves the Lord. Now these good men are asking themselves questions that no good deacon should ever have to ask himself. “The Pastor is a good man but would it be better for the church if he leaves?” Suddenly expediency rises above ethics—pragmatism trumps right. Who can blame them for thinking this way? The pressure they feel is great. Even their character and integrity has been insulted. They, like the pastor, are distraught in heart and soul. Not because they have done anything wrong but because of the pressure of accusation. Do you remember who the accuser of the brethren is? I pray for them that God will give them the strength and encouragement they need.
The final words of this outsider to Bellevue Baptist Church would be this. Go out into your foyer and look up at the chandelier that Dr. R.G. Lee purchased many years ago. Remind yourself that when he purchased this he did so without a church vote and because of that some wanted to expel him from the pulpit. Then ask yourself this question. “Where would Bellevue be today if those who criticized R.G. Lee had gotten their way?” I think the answer is obvious: It wouldn’t be where it is. Wise men learn from the past.
In case NASS deletes it before you get a chance to read it, you can find this comment at
http://pastormorton.wordpress.com/2006/12/03/dr-adrian-rogers-weeps/
The link would have sufficed, but I won't delete it. I think it speaks volumes about the cluelessness of its author. But that's just my opinion.
NASS
Thanks Nass for keeping it up.
I don't have the time to respond to a lot of the posts here but I saw one post who someone said they think I am Bart Berretta.
I just wanted to say that you are wrong. That is all. See you tomorrow everyone! :)
Pastor:
Thank you for the "forward" from your friend who is a pastor. I truly believe there is a lot of wisdom in his observation for everyone to consider.
Many people from everywhere are praying for BBC during these turbulent times. BBC has weathered storms before and has come out stronger, on the other side. God allows things to happen for certain reasons. The Refiners Fire is painful, but the end product is stronger.
Our prayers will continue to be with our friends and family at BBC for a swift resolution and restored fellowship.
Hello JCSUITT,
I have not posted in weeks. I feel I must share something with you because I feel I see your heart in your words. With all my heart I want to agree with every word you said. I want to forgive and forget and move on. I want my church healed. I want her spirit back.
With tears in my eyes I tell you I am unable to side with you.
I have talked to the Whitmires, what Dr. Steve Gaines said on Sunday was a lie. He has never apologized to them. I know Brother Whitmire was hurt by the pastor. However, he would not lie to hurt the pastor. He is a man of tremendous integrity.
During this time of crisis, if a man is willing to stand in the pulpit and lie about that issue, what else is he willing to do?
Every member of Bellevue Baptist Church should seek the truth on this one point for themselves and then form their own opinion. I did just that and was forced to chose between the word of our pastor or Dr. Whitmire. That was no choice at all.
Choice is yours:
You bring up a very interesting subject, one which is being "debated/discussed" at MANY churches today. My own included (I live out of state now, but until 14 years ago BBC was my home church).
The Bible does not give a specific "recipe" for worship; however it does give us an insite about what worship is not. The main thing that worship is NOT is "me/us". Worship is ALL about God and it should be directed toward God. God is our audience, it is to Him we offer our praises.
Music is a method of worship, it is not the whole of worship. Within music, it is not necessarily the melody or the meter (although sometimes the meter can be more of a distraction) but the MESSAGE of the music. So much of today's "worship" music is directed more towards the worshipper than the Object of our worship...God, who alone is worthy of our worship.
Honestly, I am not sure that any of us can truly comprehend what true worship is this side of heaven. I think that we will all be in awe of the worship that takes place in heaven.
"pastor" wrote:
Quoting an article by another pastor...
"The final words of this outsider to Bellevue Baptist Church would be this. Go out into your foyer and look up at the chandelier that Dr. R.G. Lee purchased many years ago. Remind yourself that when he purchased this he did so without a church vote and because of that some wanted to expel him from the pulpit. Then ask yourself this question. “Where would Bellevue be today if those who criticized R.G. Lee had gotten their way?” I think the answer is obvious: It wouldn’t be where it is. Wise men learn from the past."
I believe the chandelier about which the author writes was a gift by an anonymous donor, not purchased by the church or Dr. Lee. Therefore, no "vote" was ever needed.
“Where would Bellevue be today if those who criticized R.G. Lee had gotten their way?” I think the answer is obvious: It wouldn’t be where it is. Wise men learn from the past."
I don't think the issue here has anything to do with who "bought" or donated the chandelier. You folks who make such ridiculous statements like the one above need to learn the difference between God's secret decretive (secret) will and His preceptive will (commands, precepts as revealed in scripture). That's a big part of the problem. You assume since B happened, then A must have been right. Get in the Bible and grow up for crying out loud. I don't think God invites you, me or anyone else into His eternal counsels.
totally ticked wrote:
" I feel that the problem could have stemmed from the complacency of the congregation and as a result the 'powerful ones' seized the opportunity to take control and are now the ones who seem to be protecting the Pastor but instead are protecting themselves."
That's how the problem began, I think. However, Steve Gaines is now in charge, and he needs to do some housecleaning -- something I've seen no evidence of to date.
NASS
totally ticked wrote:
"I feel the time has come for ALL to prey like they have never preyed before... "
I hope to goodness that was simply a misspelling because I already feel like I've been preyed upon by the leadership.
What we need is prayer.
(I know what you meant but had to point out the irony in your mistake.)
NASS
choice_is_yours said...
My tone is pleasant and cheerful.
To pastor, Karen,
As you leave, I want you to both know that I wish you peace in the name of Christ. Please return often, both of you.
Pastor, I may have missed it, if so, please repeat your apology to Karen.
Karen is either the all-time most sweet, kind person on this board or she is at least in the top 5.
You have fallen on her like an avalanche and crushed those of us who were here adjacent to her with your ferocity.
Please,as an act of worship to God Almighty repeat your apology to her, your sister, before you leave.
Thanks,
Choice
Thank you so much, you sweet thing, you! I'm fine - I'm recovered - I'm blessed. My husband and I have been thinking for weeks that we need to look around for another church. That doesn't mean we're DONE with BBC. We're looking for a bible based church that will satisfy both our needs.
No further apology from pastor is necessary. I have it on good authority that pastor is a nobody and knows nothing about me, so in my mind, it's a non-issue.
Love y'all!! Karen
Choice,
A resounding AMEN to your last few posts esp. beginning with the one to pastor about apologizing to Karen. I also believe she would win the congeniality award for being sweetest, most open, and kindhearted to all who are posting here. She is one of the few who posts her real name and I think we now know more about her than we know about anyone else on here. Thanks for reminding pastor that he hasn't apologized to her yet. I don't recall him apologizing to NASS for "prophesying" against her either. NASS is pretty cool as well!
Love your posts on worship too. I am raising my hands to God and prostrating myself on the floor right now......
Diana
David:
Thank you for your post about the altar. I've never really thought about it in that light before, but I believe you are on to something!
Maybe a thread should be started about this topic, this one is getting rather lengthy (?).
By the way, my name is Lisa Crawford
sheesh...diana hart...you've got mail
Just listened to a program on WCRV, AM 640. The question about the transparency of finances of the church and accountability to the congregation was asked. The scripture II Cor 8:20 was given as a reference. Paul used a man that was well known in the church to be of the highest integrity to handle finances, lest he (Paul) be held accountable to the church for misusing the gifts of the people.
If the Apostle Paul saw the need, why does our leadership not see it? It is written in God's Word, why not obey?
choice and dianahart,
My is now twice the size from the compliments - stop! :)
I will let you know how the "Marshall Church Search" goes - do you know of anyone who goes to Faith Baptist? Email me if you do - every time I try to think of going to another church, my eyes well up so I'm trying to find myself a "touch stone" at Faith so I'll have something to grab on to before I go.
Karen,
We've been visiting Faith Baptist and it's a wonderful church, with a wonderful pastor who is humble and loves his sheep. The members have been very friendly and kind. You would be pleased to know that the membership actually knows details about their finances. That's funny because I heard Steve Tucker say the other day that a large church can't operate in that way. Faith is already a large church and growing. They are getting ready to break ground on a new sanctuary in the next couple of months.
mom4
I heard the same broadcast and thought it was timely.
cjesusnme
I wholeheartedly agree with you about Steve Tucker. To think he was my sunday school teacher years ago and I admired him. It is so tragic to see the change in his character ..but it has been changing over time and I had seen it before now. I just wonder if he realizes how bitter and cynical he has become.
Steve, do you remember many years ago telling our , then small, sunday school class that in the area of finances we should all decide "how much is enough" in order to avoid greed and concentrate on God's priorities in our lives? You invited us to your , then modest, but very nice home and spoke of how God had blessed you with it.
Did you ever decide how much was enough?
Did you ever decide how much power is too much?
I am glad that some of you are finding church that you like where you and your family can worship. that is the truth. I am very happy.
What I DO NOT understand is why you have to continue to disrespect and bash Brother Steve and others and Bellevue every chance you get. You find a way to include some of that in every post no matter what the subject is. Many of you seem to get true enjoyment out of making jabs against Brother Steve and even Bellevue in general.
Are you going to bash Bellevue at the new churches you are attending?
Steve Tucker is not the one that has "changed"
An Open Letter to Bellevue Baptist Church,
I have given great thought to the subjects of forgiveness and repentance. Forgiveness was granted before it was ever asked for. Repentance was something that could only be initiated by the offending party and that has been done in the form of apologies for the offenses. With that being said, I would add that there are still issues that have not been addressed, but will certainly come to light in the weeks to come. It should be the ultimate goal however, to avoid having these issues to begin with and that is the primary concern.
The primary issue that caused these concerns has still to be addressed and that is accountability. We are currently under governance, which has no methods of controls or balances of power.
Harry Smith was at one time a CPA and may still be. He should be very aware of the lack of controls that are in place. I would seriously doubt that he would allow his own business interest to be controlled in the manner that our church business has been handled. I would further expect that Steve Tucker, his partner in at least one business venture, is well aware of the controls that are in place in that business. It seems to me that these men would be at the forefront to revise our by-laws so that these controls are in place within our church business.
Our entire deacon body should make this their number one priority. We can no longer operate under by-laws that were written in 1929 for a membership of fifty people. The fact that they have been sufficient until now is irrelevant. It is enough to know that they are insufficient to accommodate the needs of our membership now.
This issue is something that we should expect to be addressed immediately by our deacon body. It is my greatest hope that they will exercise their ability to implement change in this area.
Tim,
Excellent points. Without mutual accountability among the leadership and between leadership and congregation, these issues will continue to be a problem. Now and in the future. I hope you got my email yesterday.
br: you might try reading the posts on the blog. it does not seem that you have.
try reading the rest of my post and putting what you quoted in context.
many have said they are leaving and or have already left. so NO, many on here are not Bellevue
Hey folks,
Just visited Mike(anti-Bellevue)Bratton's blog and saw this revealing account of the "Music CC meeting". It seems that Mr.Bratton is upset that so many people are upset with the way things are going at the church(obviously there are more than 2 or three malcontents in the music dept.).I'm suprised that he did not keep this inside the church walls. well here is his account of that meeting.
Mike's Blog
Monday, December 04, 2006
The best defense
I am personally offended...
Never minds that "anti-" speak (in or out of the Bellevue difficulties) is riddled with this phrase and its variants, and that the phrase is often considered to be an excuse for any number of responses, from passive-aggressive to hyperbolic. Last night I was able to hear this phrase (and its variants) actually coming out of some folks' mouths at the Music Communication Committee meeting. It was an eye-opener, to say the least.
The song "You Humble Me"? Personally offensive to some.
Percussion, and upbeat, "modern" arrangements in general? Personally offensive to some.
Praise teams? Personally offensive to some.
The casting process for church productions? Personally offensive to some.
It was very much a blessing that I had to leave when I did, because the meeting was degenerating from a question-and-answer-and-comment session to a talk-over-one-another, don't-give-the-people-running-the-meeting-a-chance-to-respond session. (And no, I didn't say anything; I did put my hand up once, but then took it back down.) It's my hope that the meeting got back under control, but you never know.
You've heard the expression "The best defense is a good offense," have you not? I hope the "personally offended" among us will consider a permutation on that old axiom, something along the lines of "The best defense is not to give too much credit to being personally offended." No, it doens't flow quite as trippingly from the tongue, but it gets the point across. When something is a matter of taste, one's own personal tastes cannot be elevated to too high a position--and when something is a matter of objective truth versus subjective opinion, opinion loses out ten times out of ten.
Or, at least it ought to.
--Mike
posted by Mike Bratton at 9:54 AM 3
cjesusnme: thank you for your post.
what has happened to Ace, david, myself, and other on this board. the EXACT same thing you have accused Steve Tucker of and more. we DO NOT have the same view as most on this blog and for that we have been attacked in every way possible. we have been called names, personally attacked, and on and on. It has been going on for weeks. and as you posted, just because we have a different view.
as far as the CC meeting etc. I have witnessed VERY few people that have asked their questions and brought up their concerns in a respectul manor. very few. most have been very disrespectful and attacking.
the people on the CC had a very very tough job. they of course made mistakes like we all would have. we all make mistakes every single day in many ways.
your point br?? I already posted I was there Sunday. and? I guess you think you know who I am and I am just part of the big conspriracy??
you are wrong
Karen, I sent you email. Call me if you would like to talk.
choice posted: I think we might see a resumption of the CC meetings at Bellevue if we were able to have 200 of us show up at some other church this coming Sunday.
Just my humble opinion.
REPLY: blackmail? the CC meetings did no good and I am glad they ended. I only attended a few and that was more than enough for me.
HisServant-1 said...
... the CC meetings did no good and I am glad they ended. I only attended a few and that was more than enough for me.
Counter Reply:
I believe that we have reached agreement on something. The CC was pretty much worthless. Perhaps if they had been open and honest, instead of protective and divisive they may have done some good.
What time is worship at Faith?
Weekly Schedule
Sunday
8:30 am Worship & Connection Groups
10:00 am Worship & Connection Groups
hisservant...
Please go away. We hear how happy you are that there are no more CC meetings... Was it because the crowd was growing??
We hear you are "very happy" because people are leaving.
Just as many were told "if you don't like it, then leave..." You are parroting their abuse with only slight modifications in a chorus line that has been bitter to hear from fellow believers...
See: Psalm 94:9
This is not over. Some will stay and continue to press for reform one way or another. Regardless, those of us who are truly saved will know each other forever. Your childish jabs at the posters here have gotten old.
Our Lord taught us to be peacemakers. Is that what you are helping to accomplish here?
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