Tuesday, December 26, 2006

A Bellevue Grandma Weighs In

The latest: On 12-27 we received this.

You know, sometimes you receive an e-mail that is so incredible and so unbelievable, that it deserves its own 15 minutes of fame. I've received a series of e-mails from a woman who identified herself as "SendTheLight50," aka Billie, that is unlike anything I've ever read. (I won't publish her last name here in the interest of privacy.) I've been accused by some of suppressing the ideas of those whose ideas aren't in line with those of the "anti-Bellevue" crowd, so in the interest of openness and fairness, I hereby give "SendTheLight50" the stage.

She first wrote me on 11-25-06, apparently in response to the Purpose Driven thread, but didn't sign her name. Here are those exchanges.

I thought that would be the end of it, but on 12-19-06 I received these letters which had also been cc'd to a long list of people along with the request they be forwarded to as many people as possible.

This was Karen's response to "SendTheLight50" the next day. (Reprinted with Karen's permission.)

That same day I (and a lot of other people) received this.

On 12-22 even more people received this.

On 12-23 we all received this.

On Christmas Day, we received this.

On 12-26 we received this.

As I stated last week I have no intention of responding to any more of these letters.

Note: I would like to ask that any comments be directed at this person's comments and not at her personally. Try to keep the discussion focused on ideas, not personalities.

480 comments:

1 – 200 of 480   Newer›   Newest»
Anonymous said...

Hey folks,

I trust each one of you had a Merry Christmas and continue to do so. I read the letter from the 16 year old girl and believe her sincerity. 1 Corinthians 1:27 immediately came to my mind.

The reason for my interest in this matter, is I believe BBC will one day make national news and impugn all the SBC as not being hard on the grievous sin of PW. Which I choose not to speak about.

Allow me to share with you from a fellow pastor. I too went through an ordeal recently where one of my leaders said some unkind accusations against me. I heard about the grumblings and we held a church meeting to discuss these things. After the facts were laid out and it was demonstrated I had total honesty and integrity in all things. I allowed any member or guest to ask me any question they desired.

There were no accusations except by the one person who started this. I always believed where there is smoke there is fire, either the person being spoken of is on fire, or the person speaking is on fire.

After there were no questions relating to my honesty, integrity or character, I called (out of my own desire) for a church vote. The church leaders and staff said that was neither necessary nor required. I stated I wanted a vote of confidence, right then, so they had to honor my request. I won almost by a unanimous land slide and we ended the matter there. The man, and a couple of his friends, that made the unkind accusations is no longer a member or in leadership at the church I serve.

The reason for that story is to share with you my heart and to pass only my opinions; I am not stating anything on this blog is true other than those comments by all parties that have been verified. I believe SG Wednesday night was sincere and had no ill feelings toward Dr. Spradlin. I assume, however, as the week unfolded and SG received council from his advisors, the anger stirred inside of him, which led to the meeting on Saturday (I am not stating if the meeting actually happened or SG words were accurately portrayed.)

If the statement by SG is correct on Saturday that would contradict his statement on Wednesday. Correct me if I am wrong, but isn’t that what started this whole thing a year ago, contradicting statements by the pastor? I believe, a person in the middle of this fire storm, would be much wiser with his words and learn from his mistakes.

I am no better than SG and I wish him no ill will, however, I can boldly type these words because my actions speak louder than my words, and I would not recommend to any other pastor those steps which I would not be willing, or have taken.

For the sake of the honor of the bride of Christ, I would encourage the pastor at BBC to call for a meeting and allow full disclosure. Then proceed with a confidence vote. There must be some sort of closure on this matter, which I do not see in any other possibility outside of a confidence vote. Is it possible with 7000 members, I don’t know, what kind of format I don’t know. However, I do believe it would be easier with 7000 members rather than on a national format.

Maybe I am just naive, and believe open honest, timely communication between staff and members is possible, I understand not everyone is going to agree with the pastor. In issues of Christian character and honesty, the case should be as obvious as night and day. This has been true with Dr. Rogers, Billy Graham and numerous other godly men and women. In areas of processes and methods, there will always be gray areas and personal opinions, which your staff must have your confidence in.

I would also recommend for other pastors reading these words to examine your own ministry and ensure no one could possibly accuse you of non Christian character or honesty, surround yourself with folks who will hold you accountable.

I know there are many pastors learning from this blog so allow me to discuss another issue of accountability. We are all aware of the issue of horrible pornographic images on the internet. One step that I put in place a while ago was a program called covenant eyes
( http://www.covenanteyes.com ) $6.00 per month.

A weekly report is sent to two other pastors and my wife of all internet sites I have visited, and will also send an immediate email if I have visited an inappropriate site. I believe every pastor should have this service, and I believe every church should want this service for not just their pastor but all leaders involved with the ministry of the bride of Christ.

No I do not receive any moneys from CE (covenant eyes) for touting their product, this is strictly from my heart. I would not want any money from Covenant Eyes because then my testimony would be diluted. I was not asked to use this form of accountability, but I am also aware of the staggering percentages of church leaders that visit inappropriate sites, and because of them and myself, I wanted this layer of protection. I also am not allowed to turn off the monitoring of CE, if I do, an email is sent immediately to my accountability partners.

There is always room at the cross for repentance and heart changes, which I do not deny. However, we must go to the extreme to protect the children and show the world, as SBC people, we will not tolerate, even the hint, of our children, or anyone else for that matter, being mistreated by the bride of Christ. Furthermore, that we as church leaders are willing to go to the extreme to be held accountable for our actions whether they be perceived or real.

I will not copy and repost on all the various strings on this blog. If you have found my statements to be of some merit, please copy and paste on the different strings of this blog.

Kevin Landis

www.trailtoheaven.org
www.dentoncountycowboychurch.org

Anonymous said...

Oh, but it is not disturbing to read this blog and all the pure hate on it? And some posting the hate claim to be spirit filled Christians. Some would like to be "leaders" at Bellevue and think THEIR way is the right way.

NO, that is disturbing!

Anonymous said...

repost

swtt said...
Two interesting sights to check out as we all grieve over how Steve Gaines has impacted Bellevue Baptist Church this past year.

As the days pass by, there are a growing number of members who were Steve Gaines supporters months ago jumping the fence to the other view of Steve Gaines.

I know of two longtime members of Bellevue, both of whom are deacons that have had a change of heart in the past month. It appears that hiding a pedophile caused them to be awakened. Please pray that God continue to work in the hearts of Bellevue.

http://baptistblog.wordpress.com/2006/12/23/our-iron-lady/

www.ethicsdaily.com/article_detail.cfm?AID=8330

10:31 AM, December 26, 2006

Anonymous said...

4545,

Please don't confuse accountability on integrity issues with hate. People are not attacking steve gaines personally. They are just not condoning lying, law-breaking, intimidation, the love of money, the use of the pulpit for personal gain, wrongful termination of staff, and lack of judgement from the pulpit.

I pray that you realize people are not against Steve Gaines personally. Nothing could be further from the truth. The position of pastor is too important to not uphold the Biblical standards for this office.

If it were not for this blog, the truth would not be known on many issues that the congregation has a right to know. When the truth on these issues is known, people can make thier own decision on whether Bellevue should embrace a pastor with these issues and qualities.

I pray we demand a change.

Anonymous said...

I think you need to read more on this blog. Many posts are are full of personal attacks and pure hate. Many have personally attacked Dr. Gaines and many others and continue to do so. Please do not sugar coat it.

BR said...

Pastor Landis,
Your post was insightful and earnest. I appreciate your input and I am sure it is the desire of those who voice their concerns on this blog and are of a mindset that there must be full accountability in front of the congregation. Unfortunately, as the 16 year old wrote in her letter, there are those in the congregation who will drive us out with catcalls and standing ovations for the pastor, all on que. As for now, this is the only voice we have. The SBC has not stepped up to demand accountability, neither have other leaders throughout this country. The few persons mentioned in regard to Mike Spradlin's comment (which is being grossly misquoted by the Gaines' camp) have neither come forth to defend Dr Rogers' name or his integrity, which I find unfortunate. I would think that all in authority in the SBC and other credible ministries would be willing to put their integrity behind that of the ministry and life of Dr Adrian Rogers and his devoted wife, Joyce. For now, she is bearing that burden alone.
The Gaines leadership has brought destruction to the integrity of our church, torn apart families and staff. As the leader of our church, it was Steve Gaines' responsibility before Almighty God to take immediate action to protect HIS church from this scandal. He failed to do so and is relying on his "compassion" as an excuse for disobedience and inaction. I have seen no where in everything Steve Gaines has said or what has been released by the church, that he ever prayed over his decision and the Lord had given him peace to act upon that decision. He is shooting from the hip. Why? He has lost his ability to lead. Those in the Lord's will, sleep well at night, they stand strong and tall and are not grasping at every straw in an attempt to rectify yet another "mistake of the mind".
Dr Adrian Rogers did not know of the situation regarding the pedophile. He would have acted immediately and decidedly firm. He even went so far once as to fire an entire paint crew for violating a no-smoking agreement on church property - what would make anyone think that he would do less for a pedophile?
I am saying all of this to say that I believe that Steve Gaines has the potential of being a great man of God, but at this point in time, he is damaged goods at Bellevue and that is by his own hand.

MOM4 said...
This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
cjesusnme said...

Pastor,

Thank you for your insight! Your words of encouragement are very heartfelt and appreciated.

4545,

It amazes me how you recognize the hate on this blog, but have you not seen the hate from the pulpit and the men surrounding SG? Have you read any of these letters that this "sweet little grandma" has written on this thread? Perhaps you are blind to see the truth too? Are you following SG as we were informed of from the narcissistic article from last night. You might want to read that to open your eyes a little. I'm not trying to be hateful, just honest. If the truth hurts, then so be it. I leave you with Matthew 15:14 my dear brother/sister to read and follow.

Swtt,

Thank you for those article you posted. The first one touched me in a very special way. To reminisce about the love Dr. Rogers had for Mrs. Rogers, is a true love story! I think Mrs. Rogers is one of the strongest women I know. It is an honor to have been under Dr. Rogers leadership with Mrs. Rogers strongly standing by his side. What love, loyalty, leadership, integrity, and truthfulness, that came from our pulpit. Oh, how I long for that same integrity to be at our church now. Please don't mistake that I am talking about the man because I do miss Dr. Rogers, but it is the character issue that I am relating to now. INTEGRITY is the main issue that we are lacking.

I pray for Mrs. Rogers daily because I feel that she will have to become involved even more so because she is the only one who can speak for Dr. Rogers and it is clear that the current leadership will stop at nothing to win this spiritual war! Mrs. Rogers, if you are reading this, we love you, support you, and are praying for you! You are truly an inspiration to all of us!


Send our thy light 50,

I really don't understand how you can blatantly attack some of these people you have written to in such a venomous way. It's one thing to express your opinion, but you deliberately attack them and compare those who disagree with you to that of a child molester. How terrible! You should be ashamed of yourself for saying something like that! I pray that you are not teaching anymore because I would be concerned with you filling children with hate such as that which comes from your letters! As you stated in several instances that Steve Gaines is God's man.....Do you pretend to know the heart of God? I pity you for thinking that anyone who disagrees should repent and then come back to BBC. I leave you with this. Read Proverbs 14. See if God doesn't speak to you through his word! May God bless you and remove the scales!

Koragg said...

Hey NASS, I can't pull up those letters.

Anonymous said...

Pastor, cjesusnme, and swtt,

Great posts! I don't even have to respond to 4545 because you already did it for me. Thanks!

A good friend pointed out something to me today.

I have been grieved about all the standing ovations because I saw it as evidence that church members are not concerned about integrity of the pastor, but instead, have swallowed the world's view of tolerance and moral relativism.

My friend made a valid point when she said that if God is attempting to humble a man in order to use him, all these "admirers" are just getting in the way of His plan. The fanclub that is forming will only puff him up. Even people from Gardendale who liked Gaines admitted that he had quite an ego. What if God wants to work on this and John Caldwell and other who prompt these pep rallies are working against the voice of the Holy Spirit in Steve Gaines'life?

Afterall, if they want him to stay, would they not want God's will to be done in his life?

Just a thought.

Anonymous said...

I've been accused by some of suppressing the ideas of those whose ideas aren't in line with those of the "anti-Bellevue" crowd, so in the interest of openness and fairness, I hereby give "SendTheLight50" the stage……I just wanted people to see the mindset of some people. This woman is a Bible Fellowship teacher of young women, and with ideas like these, to me that is a very disturbing thought!


This is the introduction of being open and fair?? I am not saying she is right or wrong on anything, but if this is an example of being open minded on her opinions, then I am stumped. It sounds to me like it is a setup for her being made fun of. I just do not see this as being fair to her opinions and certainly not open minded. Am I the only one that read for intro in this way??? Also note that no one single person speaks for the people that support Gaines or the people that are looking for his resignation.

Please honor the request made:

I would like to ask that any comments be directed at this woman's comments and not at her personally.

"This lady has no business in a teaching position. She is apparently depressed if not emotionally disturbed."

Anonymous said...

Great post, Memphis...I noticed that same thing from our blogmaster. She acts like she's being fair and letting another side take the stage, then she is calling her being a teacher disturbing and etc.

NASS, if you want someone from the opposing side to take the stage, why don't you email myself or memphis? I'd be glad to voice my opinions in a new post, as I'm sure memphis would too.

cjesusnme said...

Piglet,

I agree with what you said about getting in the way of The Holy Spirit. Dr. Rogers taught us that Pride is a sense of independence from God. He also taught us that pride will do the following 5 things to ruin our lives:
1.) pride defiles God
2.) pride defiles Man
3.) pride divides society
4.) pride dishonors life
5.) pride destroys souls

I pray that these men don't stand in the way of the Holy Spirit during the cleansing of our church!

MOM4 said...
This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
Anonymous said...

I would like to add that this same friend overheard two separate conversations in two different restuarants regarding the PW situation. In both cases the parties discussing it seemed confused as to why a 17 year old incident could be brought up again. She was concerned that many people do not understand the nature of a pedophile. Not reporting an incident of this nature is against the law BECAUSE pedophiles are rarely, if ever cured, and usually continue their activity involving, sometimes, hundreds of victims. I, personally, thought most people would be aware of this since these type of occurances are so highly publicized these days, but apparently not.

Anonymous said...

Mom4, I understand it is sometimes hard to say something in writing, it took me 4 trys to get my post the way I wanted it. If you feel you need to redo your post, then I will leave that to you, I was just commenting on what I read.

Anonymous said...

I have reason to believe Ace might be Mark Spiller....

C'mon Ace...deny or sidestep the issue like you have so many others.....

Hecanhear said...
This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
Anonymous said...

Mom4,

Regarding your comment. I took your post the wrong wasy, also. It seems to me you are attacking the lady instead of the post. You called her depressed and possibly emotionally disturbed...you should have said her comments are disturbing if you disagreed with them... but you said the lady was those things...

Anonymous said...

Piglet,

I have reason to believe Ace might be Mark Spiller....

Wrong.

C'mon Ace...deny or sidestep the issue like you have so many others.....

Huh? What have I denied or sidestepped in this post? Absolutely nothing and that's your problem. Why did you even bring this up? Oh, I know...it's because you see 'ace' posted, so now it's time to attack and bash him.

cjesusnme said...

Ace,

The reason that the rest of us are anonymous is that we are among the "minority" as you all say and we have been threatened by the leadership and fear them trying to throw us out of OUR church. You, on the otherhand have NOTHING to lose if you truly feel that you are following God's man, so why don't you remove the mask and identify yourself to us all so that there is no mystery anymore and we won't accuse you of being someone you are not. I just thought it would be a really sweet gesture on your part sweetie!

Anonymous said...

Ace

Why is saying you are Mark Spiller bashing you? :)

And let's be honest, now, you don't always address the issues head on. You just try to discredit the blog and the opinions here.

That's okay. You don't really bother me.

MOM4 said...

MOM4 said... REVISED STATEMENT FOR THE BENEFIT OF ALL
NASS,
The emails from "Billie" are disturbing. These attacks are typical of the attitudes toward anyone who desires accountability at BBC. This lady has no business in a teaching position. HER COMMENTS ARE THOSE OF SOMEONE WHO IS EXPRESSING A DEPRESSIVE STATE OF MIND IF NOT AN EMOTIONALLY DISTURBING THOUGHT PROCESS. I am not stating that she is "disturbed" as a person, however her repetitive and attacking letters represent a disturbing chain of thoughts. I would block her from my email if I were you all!

Happy ACE:)

Anonymous said...

CJesusInMe,

You, on the otherhand have NOTHING to lose if you truly feel that you are following God's man, so why don't you remove the mask and identify yourself to us all so that there is no mystery anymore and we won't accuse you of being someone you are not.

I don't tell people who I am because there are some weirdos on this forum who hate my guts. I receive quite a bunch of hate mail so I can only imagine what would happen if people here knew my name. I'm sorry but my safety is more important than my identity to you guys. Like I previously posted, I am very fragile. You know, like a delicate flower...


I just thought it would be a really sweet gesture on your part sweetie!


I would love to, but like I said, my safety comes first.

Anonymous said...

Piglet,

Why is saying you are Mark Spiller bashing you? :)

That's not the part of your post that was the attack and you know that.

And let's be honest, now, you don't always address the issues head on.

And everyone else here does? I don't think so.


You just try to discredit the blog and the opinions here.


I do this sometimes, yes, because there is nothing to credit. It is mostly gossip and "I hate Steve" and "I hate Bellevue" posts.


That's okay. You don't really bother me.


That's good.

Anonymous said...

Ace

Who is sending you hate mail?!!

All the folks on this blog that I know are really good people...passionate, maybe, but don't hate anyone!

Occasionally a "weirdo" drops in but I don't know of any who have stayed.

(And the weidos I remember would not be sending YOU hate mail)

Anonymous said...

Please don't feed the trolls.

Ace said,
"I don't tell people who I am because there are some weirdos on this forum who hate my guts. I receive quite a bunch of hate mail so I can only imagine what would happen if people here knew my name. I'm sorry but my safety is more important than my identity to you guys."

Everyone reading this blog knows that Ace suffers from cronic lying. Nobody on this blog has sent Ace a threatening email and nobody hates Ace's guts.

If Ace has received one email, let him publish the email. He would have already done so if this were true.

The only hatemail I've heard of has come from the deacons at Bellevue and a few staff.

I call on the blog administrator to stop publishing the filth and lies that spew from Ace.

Ace and SG are obviously from the same bent. SG says anyone who blogs is a kook and a coward. This is the same babble from Ace. If you didn't know any better, they are one in the same. The blog has been incredibly successful in forcing SG and company to deal with issues that have always been able to be swept under the carpet.
The membership has control of the I-MAG now and SG and company can't stand it. They will do anything to distract truth.

Don't let Ace and his kind hijack this blog like they have Bellevue. We don't need to get down in the gutter with them. Truth is very hard for them to swallow so they try to divert with what they are good at, which is lying.

Anonymous said...

Ace

I don't think anyone here has insinuated they hate Steve or Bellevue.

We HATE what is happening to Bellevue because of the lack of integrity in our leadership.

We HATE intimidation and cover-up.

We HATE arrogance and the disregard for the concerns of the membership.

We HATE when loyalty to truth and righteousness is replaced by loyalty to a man with no regard to accountability.

By the way, I would like your thoughts on my 1:31 post.

Anonymous said...

Ace,

I am a bellevue member who would like to see Pastor Gaines resign. Not because of any ill will or hate, but because of the following:
1. Lack of checks and balances at the top of leadership (i.e. $25k donation to FUMC)
2. Lack of openness (unwilling to orchestrate an open mtg with Jim Whitmire, David Smith, Bryson McQuiston and Mark Sharpe etc... to get to the bottom of the arrogance issues [monies, intimidation and bullying])
3. Lack of shepherding (discussing BBC issues with other churches, demeaning those who oppose him etc...)
4. Lack of discernment (witholding the PW story from BBC leadership and church body)

I personally think Pastor Gaines is a great preacher and truly would have loved for none of this to have happened. However he has lost my trust by not being a shepherd to his flock.

May I ask you given the above 4 issues, why do you still support him as our pastor? Please answer as honestly and openly as possible, I truly want to undertand an opposing view.

Thanks

Anonymous said...

swtt

Point taken.

I do think Ace is Mark Spiller. But he needn't worry. I won't be climbing any fences to confront him.

Afterall, I'm just a little timid piglet...

Anonymous said...

Ace is still working on a response...

Karen said...

memphis,

sendthelight has embarrassed herself - she needs no other help from you or anyone else. I've kept some emails to myself for the very fact they spew hate DIRECTLY AT ME! I refuse to send them to NASS - the one I did send was so bizarre, I had to get confirmation that I wasn't the one who was going crazy. If you want hate fille speech, I have her emails. If you want to see them to bolster your "cause", please email me, reveal who you are and I will gladly share them with you. If not, be careful who you support - you have no idea what she's capable of. I'm not saying I have any idea either, but I bet Wayne Vandersteeg, Mike Spradlin, Wayne Addison, John Bramlett, Josh Manning, NASS, the Adult Ministry at BBC, Christian Publishers, Jamie Fish, Webb Williams, Doyal Long, Larry Ray and about 100 others she has bothered with these silly emails. Go ask these people; I have the emails with their addresses on them.

Karen

Anonymous said...

Still working.....

Or has left the building.

I've got to go. Will check back with ya'll later :0)

cjesusnme said...

Piglet,

You go! You are acting more like Tigger today than piglet! LOL We love your little pink posts!

ezekiel said...

It is Idol Worship. She appears to worship SG like some others. I posted this on another thread. Looks like it fits here as well. Nass, delete it if you don't think it fits...

I suggest all those on both sides of this conflict read the following scripture and see if you can identify your respective positions in this dispute.

6:25 And it came to pass the same night, that Jehovah said unto him, Take thy father's bullock, even the second bullock seven years old, and throw down the altar of Baal that thy father hath, and cut down the Asherah that is by it;

Israel was worshipping idols, Baal and the ashera pole. Who/what is worshipped today? Bellevue the building, Steve Gaines?

6:26 and build an altar unto Jehovah thy God upon the top of this stronghold, in the orderly manner, and take the second bullock, and offer a burnt-offering with the wood of the Asherah which thou shalt cut down.

6:27 Then Gideon took ten men of his servants, and did as Jehovah had spoken unto him: and it came to pass, because he feared his father's household and the men of the city, so that he could not do it by day, that he did it by night.

Hmmm, fear the men of the city, Taylor, Purdue, Miller, Smith? I guess you could say Guideon would use the internet these days, huh?


6:28 And when the men of the city arose early in the morning, behold, the altar of Baal was broken down, and the Asherah was cut down that was by it, and the second bullock was offered upon the altar that was built.

6:29 And they said one to another, Who hath done this thing? And when they inquired and asked, they said, Gideon the son of Joash hath done this thing.

Can't you just see Harry Smith asking NASS this question?


6:30 Then the men of the city said unto Joash, Bring out thy son, that he may die, because he hath broken down the altar of Baal, and because he hath cut down the Asherah that was by it.

6:31 And Joash said unto all that stood against him, Will ye contend for Baal? Or will ye save him? he that will contend for him, let him be put to death whilst [it is yet] morning: if he be a god, let him contend for himself, because one hath broken down his altar.

How much more apropriate could this be to the current atmosphere at BBC? Why not ask the 16 yr old, she appears to have more discerment than most in leadership these days.....


6:32 Therefore on that day he called him Jerubbaal, saying, Let Baal contend against him, because he hath broken down his altar.

It is idol worship folks. Some say showing love. If love were in abundance at BBC would anyone, Deacon, Usher or lay person be telling a 16 yr old to leave her church family. It is not about love for Steve Gaines. It is all about worshipping Steve Gaines. Don't be mislead any longer. Face the facts.

ezekiel said...

The book is Judges BTW if you don't recognize it.

Anonymous said...

piglet,

Hope you had a great Christmas.

As far as Ace, SG, etc. are concerned, it appears that God has given these folks a spirit of confusion.

Most of these folks are wealthy business owners or leaders in the church or their companies. It amazes me the decisions that are coming out week after week that just don't make sense.

Some recent examples:

Agreeing it's ok to check people's tithing when that's between the person and God.

Getting rid of the best Minister of Music in the Souther Baptist Convention.

Having personal charges direct billed to the church.

Telling folks about weird dreams like the "Amen" fellow in the pews and the weird dream at the "rock" in the Garden of Gathsemane while leading a Holy Land trip.

Actually upcharging tour tickets to put money in the back pocket of Steve Gaines.

Jumping a fence with a clearly marked "No Trespassing" sign displayed.

Lying.

Establishing a Communication Committee that gives false or no communication.

Hiding a known pedophile for 6 months instead of dealing with it properly.

Telling a seminary president that Matthew 18 doesn't apply to certain people in the church.

Getting in front of the church and telling false information.

Going to another church and trash your own sheep.

Telling Bellevue members that the church doesn't have bylaws.

Calling bloggers kooks and cowards.

Giving the pastor a compensation package of over $400,000 and then telling members it's none of your business what we pay the pastor.

Giving $25,000 to a church known for being pro-abortion and embracing homosexuality.

I could keep going on and on but I'm really getting that sick feeling in my stomach again.

I think everyone gets the point.
I know you could come up with this many more.

Karen said...

Please read this article -

http://www.worldviewweekend.com/secure/cwnetwork/article.php?ArticleID=1390

Sound familiar?

karen

ezekiel said...

Call it a cult or whatever, if the one worshipped is not God, it is Idol worship...

Karen, looks as if written especially for SG....

Karen said...

FYI, I lifted that off of savingbellevue.com. I don't think Jim Haywood will mind.

Karen

Karen said...

Ezekiel,

What's scarier still is that the article was not written specifically about Steve Gaines. The REALLY scary part is that this "idol worship" of pastors is prevalent enougt to warrant an article on the internet. It boggles the mind to think how many churches are hurting as ours is.

BTW, my mom bought me a little plaque for Christmas that I think I will adopt as a personal statement:

"Sometimes God calms the storm and sometimes He lets the storm rage and calms His child."

karen

Anonymous said...

I amazed that woman claims to be a Christian. I have never read such hatred come from one's heart. I believe that the venom being spewed from the pulpit is trickling down to our teachers. If your daughter has a "Ms. Billie" as a teacher - run for the hills before she brain washes your child! Our children are not safe at Bellevue anymore

Koragg said...

Thats definitely true. That might explain why I didn't feel like I fit in after I returned earlier this year. I'm too independent minded to blindly follow someone like Mr. Gaines. But then again, being independent minded is a good thing after all thats come out about Mr. Gaines.

Anonymous said...

karen,

This article is so familiar. Everyone needs to read it! Looks like a Worldview Weekend is not in our immediate future.

Why Many of Today’s Evangelical Pastors Are Cult-Like

from Christian Worldview Network at www.worldviewweekend.com

Anonymous said...

Karen,

I love the plaque your mother gave you.

So many times in my life I have been reminded of the story of Peter on the water. The storm can be raging all around you and you'll go down in a minute if you take your eyes off Jesus.

But with our eyes on Him we can walk on the water. Praise the Lord!

When I picture this moving scene I always think of the verse in Isaiah (26:3) "Thou wilt keep him in perfect peace whose mind is stayed on Thee; because he trusteth in Thee."

allofgrace said...

When the people of God gather to worship..all attention, focus, praise, adoration, and adulation belong to Him and Him alone...anything else is idolatry...period.

As to the posted emails: I find it amazing that this person believes that those with concerns about BBC are wealthy folks who've "always had it our way"...good grief. The venom and hatred come through loud and clear..but then is denied (hard to track the exact thinking). There is also an apparent obsession with Calvinism..though I doubt seriously this person even knows what it is...as neither do most who most vehemently rail against it...again, good grief. The unhealthy "Joshua" syndrome is quite disturbing..as are references to Bellevue as a "temple". All in all it appears that this persons views are shaped solely by an overwhelming obsession with Dr. Gaines. The conspiracy list is probably the most disturbing thing...quite a game of "connect the dots"..with one bad missing link...to my knowledge, Josh Manning doesn't have a wife..that is kinda fishy.

Karen said...

The part that strikes me as funny - read: sad - is that I've been told in past days (via radio and email) that I'm mad at Steve Gaines for the following reasons:

1. I wanted Ken Whitten for pastor.
2. I don't like the music.
3. Something about 5 point Calvinism. I have no clue what this means, but apparantly I'm mad about it.

The above 3 "reasons" I'm mad are complete BUNK.

The real reasons I am mad are:

1. Steve Gaines harbored and protected a pedophile - as an abuse victim myself I find that Steve Gaines non-action for 6 months are criminal.
2. Steve Gaines has personally hurt a family friend of mine and that makes me mad. The fact that he lied from the pulpit in regard to his "apology" to Dr. Whitmire also makes me mad.
3. Steve Gaines and 3 representatives of our church broke the law by trespassing over a fence - I don't care if it was 42 inches or 42 feet high, they broke the law and that makes me mad.

As you will notice, I am mad at the actions (or as in #1, inaction) of a man I respected when he first came to Bellevue. I am not mad at Steve Gaines in the least. I am mad at the things he has done - or not done. Please don't say this post is hate filled or libelous or slanderous. These are things we know happened without a shadow of a doubt.

God in in control of BBC - God has preordained the outcome of this situation long before we came on the scene. God will handle it. I feel God will reveal a resolution to this situation that will "please" all "sides" of this "fight" in such a way that all we will be able to do is fall on our knees and worship HIM. God doesn't need our standing ovations. He's got angels - what does He need my applause for?

karen

Anonymous said...

Is there anyone that disputes that SG has broken the law by his own admission at least (2) two times since he has been Pastor of BBC?

It is a sad day when the standards and morals of Christians and their churches have fallen so low that the Government has to come in to enforce the world's standards.

Think about that! The world used to criticize God's people for pushing God's standard on the world. Now the Government has had to step in and enforce their standards! Who can fathom?

allofgrace said...

Ok...off to have some leftovers...turkey, cornbread dressing with gravy, green bean casserole, deviled eggs, and potato salad...yea that's right, potato salad. yummmmmmmmm.

Karen said...

mmmm, turkey!

We had stuffed beef tenderloin at momma's house - it pays to be my friend at the holidays!

Karen

Karen said...

bbc refugee,

I never thought I'd see the day when the DA's office/Police/Child Protective Services would be interested in my church. Sure makes ya sit back and take a deep breath, huh?


AOG,

I didn't address this before, but I did find it "funny" that Josh has now acquired a wife. Hey, Josh where was my wedding invitation?

karen

allofgrace said...

I guess the most concerning part of the emails is that someone who got one or all of them might actually take it seriously.

Anonymous said...

swtt said:

Telling folks about weird dreams like the "Amen" fellow in the pews and the weird dream at the "rock" in the Garden of Gathsemane while leading a Holy Land trip.
****

WHAT??? what is this about? You mean he had ANOTHER dream? I knew about the amen dream, but not the garden of gathsemane. I thought he didn't believe in dreams, per his 'Morning Manna' book.

I'm so confused.

Anonymous said...

Poor Billie is following men instead of Christ. I am having a hard time believing she teaches SS. Her knowledge of scripture is very skewed in the way she interprets scripture including the story about Joshua.

These are not attacks...just observations.

If you read closely, she is more concerned with the issue of 'election' than she is about a child being molested by their minister father and her pastor covering it up and jeporadizing other children in the church.

Does she realize your pastor could still be charged with withholding this information from the authorities? This is very embarrassing. The civil authorities are more concerned with our children than our own church!

Anonymous said...

fedupatbbc,

Steve Gaines has retold an experience he had while leading a tour group to the Holy Land.

In this story, his group is at the Garden of Gethsemane and he's wanted to pray at the "rock" for years. The "rock" where Jesus supposedly prayed is proteced by some kind of barrier to keep people from getting close to it.

In this experience, he finds himself looking at a man dressed like a monk, motioning for him to come over to the rock. The man's face can't be seen. He's dressed in a black robe including cover over his head. Nobody else saw the monk, but SG tells of going over to the rock and kneeling while praying for an undetermined amount of time.

Then, a guard interrupts his prayer by tapping him on the shoulder. The guard says, you can't be here. How did you get over here? Get back.

Steve Gaines says, "It's ok. The monk said I could come over here and pray." Then the guard asks him, "what monk", and SG replys "the guy dressed in black".

The guard then tells him there is no monk and to get back immediately.

Anonymous said...

Piglet,

Who is sending you hate mail?!!

A bunch of people. Keep in mind, I get more positive letters than negative so it's fine in the end with me.

All the folks on this blog that I know are really good people...passionate, maybe, but don't hate anyone!

Perhaps the people sending the emails don't post here? I dunno. I'm pretty sure they got my email address from here because I don't publish it anywhere else.

(And the weidos I remember would not be sending YOU hate mail)

Well some people have...whether they have posted here or not, I don't know, nor do I care. I simply ignore those emails.

I do think Ace is Mark Spiller. But he needn't worry. I won't be climbing any fences to confront him.

I already told you that I am not Mark. Drop it.

then later you said...
Ace is still working on a response...

Actually, I wasn't. Unlike you, I have a life and I'm not constantly refreshing this site for new comments and stuff. :)

Anonymous said...

swtt,

I'm wonderin if there was a monk on the other side of that fence.

:)

allofgrace said...

ace,
You're a hoot.

Anonymous said...

swtt,

Everyone reading this blog knows that Ace suffers from cronic lying. Nobody on this blog has sent Ace a threatening email and nobody hates Ace's guts.

Let me ask you this. Do you have the password to my email account? No, you say? Then how exactly do you know what type of emails I get and don't get? Wait - you don't. You're the one lying. Grow up.

If Ace has received one email, let him publish the email. He would have already done so if this were true.

No. Like I previously mentioned, I don't address or reply to the hate messages. They are a waste my of time to deal with. And I certainly don't have to post the letters here for proof...otherwise I could type up my own letters of hate to myself...so if I posted anything, it still doesn't prove anything.

The only hatemail I've heard of has come from the deacons at Bellevue and a few staff.

And then you've heard of what I claimed to get. But, wait....Ace is talking so you automatically incorrectly assume that everything he says is a lie. You're truly pathetic.

I call on the blog administrator to stop publishing the filth and lies that spew from Ace.

I call on this too...too bad it's already in effect since I have never lied on this forum or provided "filth" unlike yourself.

Don't let Ace and his kind hijack this blog like they have Bellevue. We don't need to get down in the gutter with them. Truth is very hard for them to swallow so they try to divert with what they are good at, which is lying.

Well, well, well...look who's talking. Again, I have never lied on this forum. If you can PROVE that I did, I will retract that statement. Until then, my friend, you owe me an apology. You have absolutely no right to call me a liar. Again, I tell you to grow up. Start acting your age and quit crying.

Anonymous said...

swtt,

Let me clarify,

I meant to say, ' on the other side of mark sharpe's fence'

allofgrace said...

ace,
see?...i told you you were a hoot.

Anonymous said...

AllOfGrace,

see?...i told you you were a hoot.

Yes I see. Thank you for bringing it to my attention. :)

Anonymous said...

Now, I am getting off the computer to go do other things. I'm sorry I won't be spending the next few hours with you guys, I know that's such a disappointment for you.

Please don't cry, I'll be back soon, so no worries. Should you feel the need to cry, I hear that tissues are on sale at Walgreens....buy one get one free.

allofgrace said...

allofgrace's collection of "ace" jewels:
"grow up" "you're pathetic" "stop crying" "would a cookie make it better?" "I'm as fragile as a flower" "you're lying not me" "goodnight precious"

lol...you're the most entertaining person on this blog ace.

New BBC Open Forum said...

ace, memphis,

You made a good point. My goal has always been to present facts and evidence in the topic headings and reserve my personal opinions for comments. I'm trying to wear two hats, and sometimes it's difficult to separate the two roles (blogmaster and private citizen). Therefore, I have edited the topic heading to remove the one statement of personal opinion I made, and I'll repeat it below. Thank you for helping keep me in line!

NBBCOF

{Writer switches hats.}

This woman is a Bible Fellowship teacher of young women, and with ideas like these, to me, that is a very disturbing thought!

Note: Key word in that sentence is "ideas." It would be a disturbing thought to me that anyone with those ideas would be teaching SS, so it's not a personal attack on STL50.

NASS

Anonymous said...

Ace

Can you play any musical instruments?

Diana Hart said...

aog,

I am so offended. I thought I was the most entertaining person on this blog. By the way, you are the hoot here, not Ace!!

Karen and aog, please send me your addresses. Hubby and I are coming to lunch and/or dinner with you guys tomorrow. We are on vacation and want some good food. hee hee

As to that dream, I would be really wondering if I was seeing a monk. With all this "contemplative spirituality and prayer" going on I would be concerned about myself if I was seeing a monk. Sounds buddhist to me!

Blessings,

Diana

Diana Hart said...

Is the pastor who is posting on here now the same one who was prophesying against NASS? Just curious. Sounds like a completely different person to me.

For those of you who haven't read Brannon Howse's article on the front page of the SB website, at the very end he mentions checking the grape juice during Communion for Kool-Aid. Go Brannon go!!!!!!

Di

allofgrace said...

Lady Di,
I humbly stand corrected...you are the most entertaining person on the blog. But ace is still the court jester. :)

allofgrace said...

Once more on the emails: sheesh I didn't realize I had a PhD AND a fur coat..ok guys...who forgot to tell me that?

Diana Hart said...

aog,

It is about time someone started addressing me properly! (Getting down off throne now)....

Glad to see we all still have our sense of humor.

Di

New BBC Open Forum said...

allofgrace wrote:

"I guess the most concerning part of the emails is that someone who got one or all of them might actually take it seriously."

Somehow I doubt anyone in the customer service department of Wells Fargo Bank is going to take any of them too seriously. That was just one out of the long string of e-mail addresses they were sent to. Something tells me Mike Spradlin, who was also on the list, isn't going to put much stock in them either.

NASS

allofgrace said...

just read the Brannon Howse article...frighteningly familiar. Who checks the koo..er uh...grape juice?

Diana Hart said...

I, for one, wish Ace would publish the hate emails. I think that could be entertaining. He's gone to find something more productive to do though so I guess we won't be getting any of those tonight.

And no, I don't think it would be entertaining because I think it would be funny for Ace or anyone else to get hate mail. I think his idea of hate filled emails and mine would probably be different. I'm not a hateful person so don't anyone start that up.

Di

allofgrace said...

Di,
As ace would say..."grow up, stop crying, have a cookie precious"

Diana Hart said...

Hey NASS,

Spradlin and Wells Fargo have probably been pushing the delete button a lot lately. heh heh heh Both are probably wondering how that got on that list.

Diana Hart said...

aog,

I will never grow up or stop crying however a cookie is sounding really good right now. I have to load up before midnight because I have another one of those tests tomorrow where you can't eat or drink after 12:00. And for some stupid reason I took an allergy pill today and it makes me really thirsty. That is going to be a lot of fun. I'm going to be really hungry by the time I get to your place for lunch. Are we having scones with our turkey?

allofgrace said...

frankly i take exception to the nom de plume "faction"

allofgrace said...

tell ya what Di, I'll fix a plate for ya...no scones though...sorry....ask ace for a cookie :)

Anonymous said...

Ace needs to stop embarrasing himself and the other insiders who are surrounding SG in the inner circle.
Ace reminds me of Al Gore. Since nobody out here invented the ineternet and we don't know how many Ace's there are, how in the world could anyone send an email to someone they don't know, that doesn't even exist.
Ace cracks me up.
If I didn't know better, I've seen Ace on stage lately at Bellevue in one of the latest acts.
I wonder if Ace got a bigger raise in April than the rest?

Diana Hart said...

Aog, if you are going to serve Lady Di, one would think you could cough up some scones or crumpets or something. I am having peanut butter fudge right now made by my beloved mother.

You have lost me - what in the world "faction" are you speaking of? Did Ace call you that?

allofgrace said...

swtt,
LOL

allofgrace said...

Di,
No...the sweet lady who wrote the emails..we're a faction...conspirators.

Anonymous said...

Nobody on this blog would ever send Ace an unpleasant email since everyone on this blog loves ACE.

Ace,
We love you and hope that you see the Light and Truth one day soon.

Diana Hart said...

Methinks SWTT is trying to get us back on topic. Thanks for the monk story. That was some fascinating reading!!!

Di

allofgrace said...

actually I kinda like ace...in a quirky kinda way.

Ok swtt, give us something to chew on so we'll stop chewing on ace...or cookies and scones.

Diana Hart said...

Oh, I forgot about the grandma emails. I read them awhile back and have already mostly forgotten about her. I guess we are all either conspiring FOR or AGAINST the Lord if she wants to put it that way.

Diana Hart said...

There must be something great on tv. Everyone seems to have run off. I have to go as well. Goodnight AOG and SWTT!!! And the quiet ones out there in Blogland.

Diana

Koragg said...

Yeah. A funny thing about the e-mails is that...

I can't recall the exact scripture off the top of my head but...didn't Jesus say he did not come to abolish the written laws that were being followed at the time?

Couldn't the same be said about this, where the laws of the land still have to be obeyed? Seems like those defending Gaines and his crew are forgetting that point.

allofgrace said...

here's a thought on billie's thoughts:
Everyone keeps telling us we're in the minority..that the majority do not share our views. If that's true...then why is she worried? We're "just a handful on this blog". How could we take over the "temple" at Bellevue?...wouldn't that be like a hunter trying to kill an elephant with a peashooter? Could it be that the fear is that we could actually be right?

Anonymous said...

allofgrace said...
allofgrace's collection of "ace" jewels:
"grow up" "you're pathetic" "stop crying" "would a cookie make it better?" "I'm as fragile as a flower" "you're lying not me" "goodnight precious"

lol...you're the most entertaining person on this blog ace.

7:07 PM, December 26, 2006

Here is my collection of Ace's jewelsI'll check on it,I have to search the facts.you are pathetic,you are mean, you are hateful, don't put words in my mouth.I didn't say that, I don't have the facts yet,you are hateful,you don't know .blogmaster they are picking on me,you quoting me out of context. quoting me out of context,precious,God annointed him,God Annointed him,God annointed him,God Annointed him,God annointed him,God Annointed him,God annointed him,God Annointed him,God annointed him,God Annointed him,God annointed him,God Annointed him,

Thanks Ace for entertaining us.

Custos said...

Lol, yes, that was a highlight of my Christmas weekend--finding out I have a wife! Man, she is going to be SO mad when i show up having forgotten not only our anniversary(ies?) but . . . um . . . her name.

Still, it's kinda cool. Most people get clothes for Christmas. I get a wife.

I'll now accept suggestions for my "wife's" name. Anyone feel free to vote.

allofgrace said...

custos,
I vote for Agnes of God, since she's a miracle wife :)

Custos said...

Below is an absurdly long post constituting my response to Billie. She has replied to me but i'll withhold her response until she releases me to publish it. I would not that she only responded to one question I posed: She said the only thing that would cause her to withdraw support from Dr Gaines is for him to declare himself a Calvinist. I fear there is a problem in priorities in there somewhere.


Dear Ms _______,
I’m writing in response to your correspondence to Nass dated December 23, 2006. In that letter you enumerated a number of points constituting what you referred to as a conspiracy. If you’d be gracious enough to grant me a few minutes, I’d like to clarify some of those points.
1. Dr. Michael was the only known person who did not stand to vote for Pastor Steve Gaines - eye witnesses to both services

I’m afraid this is incorrect. My family and others saw a number of people stay seated that day—many from the balconies. We stood and applauded rather excitedly as our new pastor and his family arrived.

2. Josh Manning mother was very out spoken that she disapproved of the music.

This is not true. My mother mentioned to some friends that she did not especially like the new direction with the music, but she also fairly noted regarding the music that hers was a matter of preference—not a matter of right and wrong or something over which to divide fellowship. Do you argue that one should not express preferences that diverge from church policy? Is it your contention that I have done what I’ve done because on a matter of preference--not right, wrong, or biblical doctrine--my mom simply doesn’t like the music as much as she did before?

3. Josh Manning started up the blog against the Pastor around the same time that his wife remodeled the Pastor's office. (sounds fishy)

This is incorrect on multiple levels. First, I’m not married. Second the pastor’s office was redecorated in late summer of 2005. I didn’t start blogging until a year later—August of 2006.

Third, while my mother did redecorate the pastor’s office, the idea that that might lead me to write, as you “against” him, does not make sense. What motivation would I have to write against one giving my family business unless I believed that writing was the right thing to do? In no way that I’m aware of can this comport with “fishiness.”

Fourth, my blog was not against the pastor. My blog dealt with issues—not individuals—surrounding Bellevue’s leadership and laity (but since issues find their expression in individuals, I can understand how a cursory reading might confuse someone). The comments section had posts from others dealing with the Pastor specifically, but to the best of my recollection, I didn’t post “against” Dr Gaines. Indeed, to this point, I am not “against” Dr Gaines (though he may be against me). I am “for” him. I don’t want his ministry to be marred by disenfranchisement, lack of transparency, and conduct unbecoming of a minister. Unfortunately, as others have tried to help him with this, he has exacerbated the situation. A reading of that blog may clarify this further.

4. Jim Whitmire upset because he was not properly acknowledged when he announced his retirement. Pastor Steve acknowledges his regrets publicly and personally to Dr. Whitmire.

. . . Dr Gaines belligerently, and I don’t use the word to inflame, told Dr Whitmire that he would either be forced into retirement or be placed in a lesser position, and this for no fault of his own. Dr Gaines asked Dr Whitmire if Dr Whitmire was “man enough” to do this. Further, Dr Gaines apology that he cited before the church recently was one that anyone would consider insincere at best and insulting at worst—consisting of an agitated “Ok, ok, I surrender! I apologize” or something to that effect. Dr Gaines citation of that apology makes sense only as a political paper tiger, especially given the fact that he has again met with Dr Whitmire and seemingly genuinely apologized, seeking true forgiveness

5. Germantown Baptist splits-Jim Whitmire, Michael Spradlin, Bob Sorrel, and choir members (who did not like change) joined them.

Bob Sorrell was retired, and GBC needed someone who could help rebuild their church’s administrative infrastructure. To my understanding, GBC asked him to join them. As did they ask Dr Whitmire to be their interim music minister and Dr Spradlin to be their interim pastor. Also, I fail to see how them not liking change (which itself seems unsubstantiated in your letter) is consistent with their moving to GBC since moving is fraught with change.

6. Mark Sharpe (deeply involved in money issues) decided to try to discredit the Pastor's integrity and the Pastor did as anyone would, he was hurt and upset, and let his feelings be known.

This is untrue regarding Mark Sharpe. I know Mark personally. He actually only went to the pastor originally after Richard Emerson had trouble obtaining documents from the administration. Sharpe has consistently stated that he only wants to foster more transparency and accountability in the church—how does asking for documents to be made available and asking for witnesses with conflicting stories to be brought together in a room so that the truth can be established (how does this) fit the definition of discrediting integrity? Would not fact contained in released documents have the potential to do that, not the person asking the documents to be released?

7. Jim Haywood takes over the web site (his character)

I’m not sure what website you’re talking about. If you refer to my blog, then he has never taken that over. I and I alone have sole editorially power of that site. As for savingbellevue.com, Mr Haywood started that on his own and has never taken it over from anyone.
8. For several months, well known to all members, the faction has been soliciting people to join them.

The implication seems to be that this is wrong, but wouldn’t any moral judgment about recruiting for something be based on the morality of that something? Said differently, is it wrong to recruit for a good cause? Surely neither of us would say so. Which would imply then that you contend our desires are wrong. But I have to ask what is wrong with asking for transparency and accountability?

9. The faction has been doing a broad investigation digging for dirt, could not find anything on the Pastor.

Well, I’m not sure this is completely accurate. The church will not release all the credit card records. Not releasing records to lay leaders is not a positive sign in my opinion. The records that have been inspected were only inspected by a select group of men. Of the men who inspected them, (at least) Craig Parker’s opinion on the records was twisted by Harry Smith.
The pastor has, according to testimony from multiple staff members, intimidated and threatened, and has lied to cover his own statements about the alleged demon possession of a church member. The administration refuses to bring these men together in a room with the pastor, witnesses, and legal authorities to get to the bottom of the accusations.

The pastor has insulted, berated, and demeaned members of his congregation who asked for accountability. He has also broken the law and made light of such lawbreaking, arguing the size of the transgression was such that it was insignificant.

He continues a pattern of only apologizing once the dull roar gets loud enough. We have yet, to my knowledge, received an apology for anything before the membership was shocked at certain of the pastor’s actions. In other words, he only seems to apologize after his error has come to the congregation’s attention. Surely that is the wrong order of things.

10. A past moral failure (aledged abuse) surfaced (one that had been by all indications thus far) dealt with over 17 years ago under the ministry of Dr. Adrian Rogers (believed so far to his unknowing)

The abuse is not only alleged, but admitted by both the child and the rapist. The issue was not “dealt with” 17 years ago, hence the minister’s continued presence at the church in a leadership position. Dr Rogers did not know about this as voiced by Joyce Rogers and Paul Williams himself.

10. Pastor Steve Gaines opposed the teaching of 5 point Calvinism, creating more people to join the Germantown mad crowd.

I don’t understand this point since it is predicated on the idea that something changed regarding the treatment of Calvinism under Dr Gaines versus its treatment under Dr Rogers. But this cannot be correct since Dr Rogers vehemently opposed Calvinism regularly. He was well-known among reformed circles as being an enemy of Calvinism. That said, the argument seems to fall apart.

11. The now President of Mid America is acting interim Pastor in Germantown Church.

This is true.

12. Several members from the Germantown Church have stated they do not enjoy his preaching and many have left the Church.

I have no doubt that that is true, but wouldn’t that be true under any circumstances? Is it truly possible to please all of the people? Arguing that certain people’s dislike of Dr Spradlin constitutes proof that something is wrong with his preaching etc can only make sense if you apply that same rubric to Dr Gaines. If you did that, you would have to conclude that since some don’t like Dr Gaines, he is wrong for BBC. I don’t think this is an argument that either of us would consider good. So we can’t determine Dr Spradlin’s fitness for GBC based solely on the fact that some don’t like him, much like we can’t make the same judgment about Dr Gaines.

13. The possible degrading of Dr. Rogers integrity has Mrs. Rogers upset (I agree with her fear because if Dr. Gaines goes down the integrity of Dr. Rogers will always be in question. (not by me)

This is true.

14. Fact are not known in the media because the investigation is not complete and the faction activist are acting as fast as they possibly can to, "stone" Pastor Steve Gaines to death. Why?

I don’t believe this is the case. There is no desire to stone Dr Gaines. A legal investigation is under way. Those who desire accountability from the leadership, do believe that this is a truly heinous error on Dr Gaines’ part. And for many among those, this has been the straw that broke the camel’s back—they believe that Dr Gaines has forfeited his right to lead this beloved church. Those who are pushing for investigation simply want the truth to come out and right to be done.

Conspiracy is now unfolding:
Pastor Steve Gaines has a heart for Jesus Christ and he takes a firm stand in his believe (mine, and thousands of others across this land) that Church should not be ran by, "Those with greatest wealth, those who are Ph.D. of Mid America, those who have had everything done, "their way or no way" for years, but instead be a Church for all the people to share equally. This is evident by the fact that he desired to equally blend the music. The faction against Christ teaching's of Dr. Stephen Gaines said (paraphrase) If that is the way you are going to be I do not want any part of you!


Inconsistent with what you cite as Dr Gaines’ position, is the composition of the de facto leadership of the church—Smith, Tucker, Taylor, and Company. While we would all hope that the church would be as you describe above, BBC is not. It wasn’t under Dr Rogers and it isn’t now.

As for MABTS, its professors do not have great wealth as you imply, nor have they had everything done their way (the reverse seems to be the case since BBC provides great funding for MABTS, not vice versa.

I hope that this has helped clarify some details. You obviously are very passionate about this and that is to be commended. I hope and pray that you will have a great zeal, but also a zeal tempered with knowledge.
If you would indulge me just a moment longer, I’d like to ask a quick question. What would it take for you to withdraw your support for Dr Gaines continuing to fill his current office? Put differently: Is there a point past which you could not continue to endorse Dr Gaines as pastor; and if so, what is it?
If you’d like to respond to my comments, you’re more than welcome to. If you’d like to respond to my questions only, I’ve provided them at the end of this letter for your convenience. Thank you for your time and indulgence.

Blessings in Christ,
Josh Manning

Questions from above:
1. Do you argue that one should not express preferences that diverge from church policy?
2. Is it your contention that I have done what I’ve done because on a matter of preference--not right, wrong, or biblical doctrine--my mom simply doesn’t like the music as much as she did before?
3. How does asking for documents to be made available and asking for witnesses with conflicting stories to be brought together in a room so that the truth can be established (how does this) fit the definition of discrediting integrity?
4. Would not fact contained in released documents have the potential to do that, not the person asking the documents to be released?
5. The implication seems to be that this (recruiting) is wrong, but wouldn’t any moral judgment about recruiting for something be based on the morality of that something? Said differently, is it wrong to recruit for a good cause? Surely neither of us would say so. Which would imply then that you contend our desires are wrong. But I have to ask what is wrong with asking for transparency and accountability?
6. [Your words] Several members from the Germantown Church have stated they do not enjoy his preaching and many have left the Church. [My question]I have no doubt that that is true, but wouldn’t that be true under any circumstances? Is it truly possible to please all of the people?
7. What would it take for you to withdraw your support for Dr Gaines continuing to fill his current office? Put differently: Is there a point past which you could not continue to endorse Dr Gaines as pastor; and if so, what is it?

Karen said...

Diana,

You mean to tell me you didn't get your fur coat and entitlement papers when you joined BBC? HMMM, must've gotten lost in the mail somehow.

AOG,

Did you get another email or are you referring to one that NASS posted?

Karen

ezekiel said...

AOG,

Gideon routed 15,000 with 300. David just needed one rock.....

Course, it did help to have the angel of the Lord on his side....

allofgrace said...

Karen,
No the one posted already..ridiculous...she prolly has more money than me...which still isn't saying much.

allofgrace said...

ez,
Yea I know...I was just arguing from her apparent point of view.

allofgrace said...

trucker said...

allofgrace said...
allofgrace's collection of "ace" jewels:
"grow up" "you're pathetic" "stop crying" "would a cookie make it better?" "I'm as fragile as a flower" "you're lying not me" "goodnight precious"

lol...you're the most entertaining person on this blog ace.

7:07 PM, December 26, 2006

Here is my collection of Ace's jewelsI'll check on it,I have to search the facts.you are pathetic,you are mean, you are hateful, don't put words in my mouth.I didn't say that, I don't have the facts yet,you are hateful,you don't know .blogmaster they are picking on me,you quoting me out of context. quoting me out of context,precious,God annointed him,God Annointed him,God annointed him,God Annointed him,God annointed him,God Annointed him,God annointed him,God Annointed him,God annointed him,God Annointed him,God annointed him,God Annointed him,

Thanks Ace for entertaining us

Nice collection there, wouldn't you say trucker?..lol

Custos said...

Agnes. Nice suggestion AOG.

Anonymous said...

Billie,

If you are reading this, I understand your excitement about the path being cleared to build a "house of prayer" now that Paul Williams has been exposed (pardon the expression).

You stated that since PW was the minister of prayer, this is the main reason why the "house of prayer" was not constructed. Perhaps now, we can build a huge rising tower of prayer for all to pray in.

I want to remind you however that Steve Gaines is one Southern Baptist Pastor that doesn't give much respect for Wednesday night Prayer Meeting.

He's been here approximately 65 Wednesday nights and he's participated in how many of these 65 prayer meetings? Maybe 5. That may be generous.

I always thought the most important part of the church was Wednesday night prayer meeting. The foundation of the church is built on prayer. It's not built on preaching to 18 year olds on Thursday nights. It's not built on traveling all over the creation preaching at other churches for money.

When Steve Gaines told the Bellevue members why he didn't preach on Wednesday nights, he summed up his thoughts on prayer as far as I'm concerned.

In fact, after the church gave him a standing ovation for not preaching on Wednesday nights, that pretty much summed up our thoughts as a church of what we think about prayer.

I know $30,000,000 in the bank can build a really nice "House of Prayer", but I'd rather give the money away in other areas of ministry.

One last thing Billie, I really hope you take a leave of absence from teaching. You seem to be a little up tight at the moment. This can't be good for anyone sitting under your teaching.

Karen said...

Josh,

Please remind me in case I forget:

1. Never to get in a argument with you; and
2. If I ever do anything that would require a lawyer, I want you on retainer.

karen

New BBC Open Forum said...

ATTENTION:

Newest letter has just been published on the front page, right below the others. Also, still working on getting more bandwidth to get the topic heading back down to a manageable size. Thanks for your patience.

NBBCOF

Churchmouse said...

Ace argues like a girl !!! Check it out. I think she is a Gaines girl.

ACE said
Like I previously posted, I am very fragile. You know, like a delicate flower...

SWTT said
Ace and SG are obviously from the same bent. SG says anyone who blogs is a kook and a coward. This is the same babble from Ace. If you didn't know any better, they are one in the same.

allofgrace said
allofgrace's collection of "ace" jewels:
"grow up" "you're pathetic" "stop crying" "would a cookie make it better?" "I'm as fragile as a flower" "you're lying not me" "goodnight precious"

trucker said
Here is my collection of Ace's jewels: I'll check on it, I have to search the facts, you are pathetic, you are mean, you are hateful, don't put words in my mouth. I didn't say that, I don't have the facts yet, you are hateful, you don't know, blogmaster they are picking on me, you're quoting me out of context, quoting me out of context,precious, God annointed him, God Annointed him, God annointed him, God Annointed him, God annointed him, God Annointed him, God annointed him, God Annointed him, God annointed him, God Annointed him, God annointed him, God Annointed him,

Churchmouse says: remember, Donna Gaines told Steve that she and the girls were fragile like little flowers? He said that in a sermon.

Bin Wonderin said...

I am sorry I cannot help myself, must be the fruit cake kicking in...

Steve Gaines has retold an experience he had while leading a tour group to the Holy Land.

In this story, his group is at the Garden of Gethsemane and he's wanted to pray at the "rock" for years. The "rock" where Jesus supposedly prayed is proteced by some kind of barrier to keep people from getting close to it.

A barrier, that's swanky talk for fence, right? Oh, and don't tell anyone it's a fake rock like they have at Disney World, it'll spoil the mood.

In this experience, he finds himself looking at a man dressed like a monk, motioning for him to come over to the rock. The man's face can't be seen. He's dressed in a black robe including cover over his head.

Like in Animal House?

Nobody else saw the monk, but SG tells of going over to the rock and kneeling while praying for an undetermined amount of time.

A dream about jumping a fence?

Then, a guard interrupts his prayer by tapping him on the shoulder. The guard says, you can't be here. How did you get over here? Get back.

It was an itty bitty barrier.

Steve Gaines says, "It's ok. The monk said I could come over here and pray." Then the guard asks him, "what monk", and SG replys "the guy dressed in black".

Steve pleads it was a mistake of the head, not the heart.

The guard then tells him there is no monk and to get back immediately.

At which point he calls the guard Hezbollah, which could actually be true in this instance.

Karen said...

Josh,

The name I pick for your wife:

Chloe

I Cor. 11-12 (The Message)

I bring this up because some from Chloe's family brought a most disturbing report to my attention—that you're fighting among yourselves! I'll tell you exactly what I was told: You're all picking sides, going around saying, "I'm on Paul's side," or "I'm for Apollos," or "Peter is my man," or "I'm in the Messiah group."

Thought it was appropriate - check out http://christiananswers.net/dictionary/women.html

karen :)

Bin Wonderin said...

Josh,

The name I pick for your wife:

Billie

Karen said...

bin wonderin said...

At which point he calls the guard Hezbollah, which could actually be true in this instance.

TRULY a soda spewing moment if there ever was one!!!!!!!!!!

karen

Karen said...

bin wondering,

That is just wrong! :)

karen

Anonymous said...

The report that continuation of support to MABTS was conditioned on an apology from Dr. Spradlin, if true, is befuddling at best.

On one hand, Dr. Gaines approves $25,000 for a UMC church that is pro-choice, pro-female pastors and pro-gay.... and on the otherhand funds are subject to being withdrawn from a solid SB seminary based upon a personal offense taken by Dr. Gaines over an issue that is not doctrinal.

Why not rise above this, Dr. Gaines, and allow Dr. Spradlin's comment to go unchallenged as his right to express his opinion? Why threaten the education and training of godly seminary students?

How is the kingdom of God advanced by either supporting the liberal church or defunding MABTS?

Anonymous said...

Billie seems to be very preoccupied with Calvinism and the dangers therein.

Is it okay that a pastor is greedy, lies, mistreats people, and breaks the law?

Just thank goodness he's not a Calvinist?

Karen said...

Hey folks,

When I went to Union University in the late 80s, my Old Testament professor told us about "They Babaloynian Myth" and from what I recall it had something to do with Lilith, who was supposed to be Adam's 2nd wife. From what I understand, UU is no longer teaching such things, but is this a Calvinistic view? Just wondering - I really don't remember too much about that class because I dropped it - it bothered me too much to listen to the garbage the professor was spewing.

karen

Anonymous said...

EXCELLENT POST FROM ANOTHERONEPRAYING

(standing ovation with whooping and hollering) :)

Koragg said...

Maybe I'm dumb, but I don't even know what Calvinism is. lol.

Karen said...

I'll get your answers tomorrow - I'm tired and am going to bed!

karen

Churchmouse said...

Name for Custos's wife:
Integritas -- because she does count. 8^)

New BBC Open Forum said...

Check this out, particularly the entry from 12/23.

New BBC Open Forum said...

I understand there was an insert in the Bellevue Today bulletin Sunday morning that was a statement by Steve Gaines. If anyone has that, can you please scan it and send it to me at the e-mail address on the profile? The Bellevue Today is on the bellevue.org site, but they don't include the inserts.

Thanks,

NBBCOF

ezekiel said...

anotheronepraying,

I am not sure SG is interested in advancing God's kingdom, seems to be spending a lot of time on SG's kingdom lately.

Anonymous said...

What is poor Billie going to do when she gets to heaven and there stands Calvin with his arm around Arminius?

She will support Gaines in ANYTHING except if he claims to believe in Election. That just about sums it up, folks.

Harbor a pedophile, fine. Believe in election, horrible!

Wonder how she handles Romans 3 in SS?

Anonymous said...

Perhaps Billie was not predestined to be a Calvinist.

Ya think?

allofgrace said...

ok guys..here it is...karen...adam didn't have a second wife...no,that's not calvinism...calvinists aren't dangerous..i'm one...i'm a teddy bear...koragg, if you want to know what calvinism is visit my blog..sbdiscussionforum.blogspot.com...we talk about this kinda stuff...i'm sure billie wasn't predestined to be a calvinist.

allofgrace said...

esther,
If you're interested in joining the discussions you're welcome to join as well.

Custos said...

Lol, I love the suggestions. Right now I'm thinking about picking Lilith even though it wasn't a suggestion. I mean, since she didn't exist and my wife doesn't either, it makes sense as her name. Of course, Lilith was Fraiser Crane's wife too and she was an ice-cube in heels which is no good.

Karen, lol. Thanks. It helps when truth is on your side. =)

Also, Bin, you're a very bad person! =)

G'night folks.

Anonymous said...

My thoughts after reading "Billie/sendthelight's" letters:

Isaiah 5.20-21
20 Woe to those who call evil good
and good evil,
who put darkness for light
and light for darkness,
who put bitter for sweet
and sweet for bitter!
21 Woe to those who are wise in their own eyes,
and shrewd in their own sight!

Oh, wait! Those aren't my thoughts, those are God's - sorry.

Sheesh!

Bin Wonderin said...

I once attended a discussion group for Calvinists and Arminians. Unfortunately I arrived late and the meeting had already begun with the two groups evenly divided and huddled on either side of the room.

As I approached the Calvin supporters their spokesman asked why I was there. I explained I saw two groups and decided to join theirs. The Calvinist promptly declared no one could join their group based on their own free will and sent me to the Arminians.

As I approached the Arminians they were pleased to see me. Alas, when they realized I had been sent to their group and had not freely chosen them I was denied acceptance.

I would up in a Sunday School class taught by Miss Billie.

allofgrace said...

bin,
you would "up" in billie's SS class?

allofgrace said...

ahhh....wound?...sheesh.

Custos said...

Will Bishop,

If you happen to see this, would you please track me down on facebook? I'd love to catch up since it's been ages. Thank you for your writing so strongly.

Best,
Josh Manning

Bin Wonderin said...

bin,
you would "up" in billie's SS class?


Oops. Wound up in Billie's class.


Spell check is great, but I really need "thought check".

allofgrace said...

i just read billie's last letter to josh...just as i thought...she doesn't understand calvinism anymore than a man in the moon. actually calvinism is just a nickname for the doctrines of grace..good grief...worship John Calvin?...give me a break. She also needs to read up on SBC history if she thinks those beliefs just sprang up in the SBC.

allofgrace said...

she's going to have to explain these men...

John Broadus, James Pedigru Boyce, Basil Manly Sr., Basil Manly Jr., RBC Howell, John L Dagg..on and on and on...all early SBCers...all calvinists.

Anonymous said...

Someone help me out, please. What is " election'.

Thanks

allofgrace said...

fedupatbbc,
Here's a good website for you to find some info...Founders.org...then you can drop by sbdiscussionforum.blogspot.com...join the discussions sometime.

Anonymous said...

In response to Karen's comment to me:

memphis,

sendthelight has embarrassed herself - she needs no other help from you or anyone else.

I never offered her any help one way or the other, in fact I do not believe I even commented on anything she wrote.

I've kept some emails to myself for the very fact they spew hate DIRECTLY AT ME! I refuse to send them to NASS - the one I did send was so bizarre, I had to get confirmation that I wasn't the one who was going crazy.

I am not asking you to do anything with those emails.

If you want hate filled speech, I have her emails. If you want to see them to bolster your "cause", please email me, reveal who you are and I will gladly share them with you.

My cause? Are you sure you read my post right? All I asked was that people follow the moderators suggestion and not post about her personally.

If not, be careful who you support - you have no idea what she's capable of.

Really not sure what you mean there.


I'm not saying I have any idea either, but I bet Wayne Vandersteeg, (don't know) Mike Spradlin,(met him once) Wayne Addison,(don't know) John Bramlett,(don't know) Josh Manning,(don't know) NASS,(don't know) the Adult Ministry at BBC,(alot of people there) Christian Publishers,(don't know) Jamie Fish,(met him once) Webb Williams,(met him once) Doyal Long,(baptized my wife) Larry Ray (OK I know him)and about 100 others she has bothered with these silly emails. Go ask these people; I have the emails with their addresses on them.

Again, I had no postition on what she wrote in my post one way or another.

NASS, Thank you for your post and making a correction. I know sometimes when I write things, my brain moves faster than my fingers. ( I know that opened myself up to alot of comments, but I can take it.)

Hope you all had a Merry Christmas

Anonymous said...

Chuck (Ace)! Is that you?

If BBC has 30,000 Members and only 500 showed up this past wednesday to hear SG give his word that he loves Mike Spradlin and that BBC will always be committed to supporting MABTS, how many people showed non-support for not showing up on an important evening... 29,500?

Anonymous said...

bbc refugee

The flip side to that is the fact that only 500 showed up to hear him make his 'pledge' to mabts and mike spradlin. 29,500 folks don't know that he is now going back on his word, and furthermore, won't believe he ever pledged it. Oh sure, they could get the audio from the library, but we have learned by now that the sheeple don't bother to discern for themselves. They just follow and swallow.

ezekiel said...

AOG,

Reckon we could get Mahan to give SG a call? Sounds like covetousness is the major problem.

Covets men's praise? Check
Covets money? Check
Covets title/ high seat? Check

Good find. Worth the time!

allofgrace said...

fedupatbbc,
sad but true

allofgrace said...

ez,
yup..he nailed it didn't he?

ezekiel said...

AOG,

Yep, with a mighty big nail. Kinda sounded like he was talking with more than a fair share of authority too. Reckon Linda Glance would give an email with this attached to SG?

Might run him up under his desk looking for the bolt of lightening...

Anonymous said...

ez and aog,

Well, at the VERY least, he isn't getting to enjoy it as much as he would have due to this blog.

allofgrace said...

ez,
that's what i call REAL authority...not a position..the authority of the Word of God.

fedup,
I sure hope not.

Anonymous said...

Just thinking, too bad the folks at Gardendale didn't think to have a blog for themselves during the past 5 years. Things might have turned out much differently.

When (if) we ever run him off, all a search committee has to do is read over these blogs. Ol SG might be permanently looking for a job.

But I suppose he could always go to work as a tour guide.

allofgrace said...

fedup,
not our job to run him off...God will do that if it's His will..our job is to stand on the truth.

Anonymous said...

"When (if) we ever run him off,"

That comment says alot.

Anonymous said...

AOG,

You are absolutely right. I spoke out of frustration.

ezekiel said...

fedup,

I only hope we can get enough sand in the gears to get folks looking and examining what he says with the Word.

I had lunch the other day with my uncle (Baptist minister many years, seminary trained) and we discussed this stuff. He said we as a congregation (SBC) had been deceived....Church today is all about money, power and control. Not a lot of room for love and Jesus left anywhere.... kinda depressing. Happening everywhere.

allofgrace said...

ez, fedup,
Keep your chins up...God is bigger than all this..He's bigger than our hearts. He's shaking the wrinkles out of His bride..the SBC is under some judgement right now I think...but if we as a denomination repent...He'll bind up the wounds.

Anonymous said...

ez,

Then where do we go from here. Will it EVER be any different. Are we in the last days.

Scales on so many eyes these days. What I see as an absolute, many folks just make excuses for the sin. I don't understand how they sould sit under Dr. R. and not understand that sin is sin.

ezekiel said...

AOG,

Yep, real authority. A sermon like that one at BBC these days would have the doors swinging of the hinges.

allofgrace said...

guys,
Remember He said He'd shake whatever can be shaken...He always has a faithful remnant..don't forget that..what can be shaken will reveal what's of Him.

Anonymous said...

ez wrote

Yep, real authority. A sermon like that one at BBC these days would have the doors swinging of the hinges.
*

The doors swinging which way, coming or going?

ezekiel said...

AOG,

I have put a lot of thought lately into church organization. Problem I always come to is that as long as they have men in charge, there is always someone or several of them trying to exalt themselves and this mess just keeps happening.

The Missionary we had on several weeks ago that said "stop going to church and start being the church" has got me thinking....

Anonymous said...

President Ford has died.

So tired of all this said...

I am so tired of all the arrogant leadership and their poor ignorant followers that have destroyed Bellevue Baptist Church and now they are wanting to destroy other institutions like MABTS. Enough is enough...I am totally frustrated.

ezekiel said...

Fedup,

Good point. The offering would probably be pretty thin for awhile. On the good side, there would be plenty of room for a new prayer chapel....inside the current building.

Anonymous said...

Ms. Billie,

I post as Piglet, but in reality I am Steve Gaines.

I am a Calvinist.

Please stop trying to help me.

Anonymous said...

Fedup, you know they usually say famous people die in threes (James Brown, Pres Ford, ????)

allofgrace said...

folks,
listen to me...don't lose faith..whatever happens at BBC...God is still God..He's God today...He'll be God tomorrow..if your His child, He won't abandon you. You're under his wings.

Anonymous said...

piglet,


ROFL

TRULY LAUGHING OUT LOUD

allofgrace said...

piglet,
LOL

ezekiel said...

AOG,

Not shaken, stirred. Stirred to the point that I am wondering when to pull the "come out from among them" lever......

Anonymous said...

AllOfGrace,

allofgrace's collection of "ace" jewels:
"grow up" "you're pathetic" "stop crying" "would a cookie make it better?" "I'm as fragile as a flower" "you're lying not me" "goodnight precious"

lol...you're the most entertaining person on this blog ace.


Thanks for the laugh...really (I'm being serious!)

As ace would say..."grow up, stop crying, have a cookie precious"

This made me laugh even harder!

Anonymous said...

Piglet,

Can you play any musical instruments?

Yes.

allofgrace said...

well guys it's like this...in this world you will have trouble...but take heart..He's overcome the world

allofgrace said...

ace,
glad to see you've kept your humor

Anonymous said...

Diana,

I, for one, wish Ace would publish the hate emails. I think that could be entertaining.

And just what exactly would we accomplish by me doing that?

I think his idea of hate filled emails and mine would probably be different.

Err...probably not in this situation.

Anonymous said...

ez,

We pulled that lever on sunday when we worshipped at gbc. Not a single standing ovation. Mike Spradlin did not taylor make the sermon to serve himself.

It was refreshing to hear the Word of God spoken by a man of God, a man of integrity, a man who has the courage to stand for truth. Apparently, that is rare these days.

ezekiel said...

AOG,

It is odd that you say that now. As we have discussed, I was reading about Guideon this morning, how he was threshing wheat in a winepress, hiding from the midianites.

Repetitive theme. God was always fighting for Israel when they would trust Him and Obey Him. Always used a lot less people than we would think it would take...All so that God got the glory and not man.....

Anonymous said...

Swtt,

Ace needs to stop embarrasing himself and the other insiders who are surrounding SG in the inner circle.

I'm not embarrasing myself or anyone else. Just because I hit a sore spot with my last post to you, it'll all be okay, alright? So chill out.

If I didn't know better, I've seen Ace on stage lately at Bellevue in one of the latest acts.

But you know better, right?

Nobody on this blog would ever send Ace an unpleasant email since everyone on this blog loves ACE.

Everyone loves me? Pfft, yeah right.

Churchmouse,

Ace argues like a girl !!! Check it out. I think she is a Gaines girl.

I am a guy. That throws this scenario out the window...sorry.

allofgrace said...

but he is as fragile as a flower

Anonymous said...

Ace,

I thought you signed off earlier...you had things to do..but you are back.

Did you finish polishing SG's ring so soon.

Anonymous said...

Allofgrace,

but he is as fragile as a flower

Exactly. Finally some people are starting to get it!

ezekiel said...

Fedup,

Yea, we were there as well. Great sermon. Music service was a real joy.

My kids have been enjoying SS over there, teacher seems to have a good handle on what it takes to make the Bible interesting to kids.

Their comment was that they don't waste time with the corporate worship service and go directly into the Bible....

Right now, the wife and kids are leaving GBC a lot happier than they were leaving BBC on Sunday morning.

Anonymous said...

FedUp,

I thought you signed off earlier...you had things to do..but you are back.

That was over 4 hours ago...I am back much to the delight of you and others. You know, deep down inside you love seeing my posts. Go ahead and admit it...it'll make you feel better on the inside. :)

allofgrace said...

ace,
I think it's you who likes us...go on..admit...you like us..that's why you keep coming back here :)

Anonymous said...

Ace

Are your initials A.C.E.?

allofgrace said...

plays dragnet theme for piglet...da da da don

Anonymous said...

The ACE Fan Club!

Anonymous said...

AllOfGrace,

I think it's you who likes us...go on..admit...you like us..that's why you keep coming back here :)

Well, I came back tonight because I had some extra Christmas cookies left over and thought some people over here might be interested in them.

Piglet,

Are your initials A.C.E.?

Hmm...deep question....but a good one. I'd rather not answer that publicly, so I'll let you ponder that instead. Cheers

Anonymous said...

AOL

shhhh..you're blowing my cover:/

allofgrace said...

ace...man of mystery...lol ...and cookies.

Anonymous said...

Sorry - last post was to AOG.

It's getting late.

allofgrace said...

yes it is...ace...go to bed precious.

Anonymous said...

AllOfGrace,

yes it is...ace...go to bed precious.

I actually might do that soon. I have to work a double shift and Burger King tomorrow.

Anonymous said...

At Burger King, rather...

allofgrace said...

g'nite all..ace, burger king will make you fat

ezekiel said...

fedup said,
Then where do we go from here. Will it EVER be any different. Are we in the last days.

Scales on so many eyes these days. What I see as an absolute, many folks just make excuses for the sin. I don't understand how they sould sit under Dr. R. and not understand that sin is sin.

I don't know. As my uncle said, we have been deceived. Just look at the letters and the standing O's.

We have a pastor that is saying mercy and grace. Forgive that molester, pardon my sin..er..my mistake...er..my..effort to show love....

Many have always heard mercy and grace but just turn a deaf ear to repent from your sin, judgement is near....

Many want to hear peace, love not judgement and sin and death. It all goes together, just ask the nation of Israel....I suppose they have been judged, hmmmm.

But that doesn't fill pews, put millions in the bank....For men to fight over and hoard....

Anonymous said...

Ace

If you're still up,I'd like your thoughts on my 1:31 post today...

If not, sweet dreams.

Anonymous said...

We have a pastor that is saying mercy and grace.

Actually we have a pastor that is asking for mercy and grace for himself and those that support him.

It doesn't look like the mercy and grace should be extended to those that oppose him; Dr. spradlin, case if fact.

ezekiel said...

But it does have to be onesided right. SG is the only "annointed man of God" around these parts...

Mercy and grace are only extended to meee, mine, ours....just the ones trying to cover my tail, and in the case of PW, those that can expose it real bad.....

Anonymous said...

Apostacy in action

Anonymous said...

Piglet,

In regards to your 1:31 post...I don't think God is going to let Ace + other people clapping from stopping Him and His plans, do you?

My God is bigger than that.

Anonymous said...

After reading grandma's series of letters, her appallingly poor and self serving use of the Bible, and her statement that the Holy Spirit told her what the Holy Spirit was telling Adrian Rogers, one can only conlude that you longsuffering Bellevue members are dealing with mindless, mystical fringe element of people there.

To folks like her Steve Gaines is a rock star to be revered.

You have my sympathy from this distance.

allofgrace said...

waybackbbc,
What we have is a failure to take in the WHOLE counsel of God. We have God is love...God gives grace and mercy..God forgives...all true...but they've left out..God is a consuming fire...God is a righteous judge...God gives grace to the humble, but resists the proud..God commands that all men everywhere repent...but as ezekiel said...that doesn't fill the pews or the offering plates.

Anonymous said...

It was said that in a Deacons Meeting last year, after Katrina, Steve Gaines announced that HE sent a check (a BBC check of course) to New Orleans Seminary. He also stated he planned to send much more in 2007. Can someone explain to me how he could just walk in in send 75k+ over there without some kind of approval? Can any Deacon verify they voted on this sum of money? Did he follow through this year on his intent to send over 200K?

junior 5432 said...

BBC Refugee said...
It was said that in a Deacons Meeting last year, after Katrina, Steve Gaines announced that HE sent a check (a BBC check of course) to New Orleans Seminary. He also stated he planned to send much more in 2007. Can someone explain to me how he could just walk in in send 75k+ over there without some kind of approval? Can any Deacon verify they voted on this sum of money? Did he follow through this year on his intent to send over 200K?

A member of the missions committee told me that we sent $250,000.00 this year

Finance Guy said...

See the below extract from Bellevue Grandma(sendthelight50's) letter. Do you need any further evidence that verifies the recent post on cults in evangelical churchs that Jim Haywood just linked to on his site? Is there any sin or "mistake of the mind" that this pastor can commit before people will lay down their pom-poms? Criminal and unethical behavior okay as long as you say "sorry", but don't you DARE be a Calvinist. Is this the legacy that Dr. Rogers left us that we are unable to be discerning of the character of men? Is she also giving all the criminals in the world a "get out of jail free card"? (Just say "I'm sorry").

<-FG, not only feeling like a visitor in his church but also starting to feel like a visitor on the planet earth...>

Bellevue Grandma (sendthelight5))said in her letter..I can tell you that the one and only way that Dr. Steve Gaines can lose my support is by standing in the pulpit of Bellevue Baptist Church and say, "I did not mean what I said the first number of sermons that I preached from this pulpit this statement, "I am not a Calvinist, I am one" Then and only then will he lose my support as far as I and countless others are concerned ALL of these points that you and your crowd point out are merely sins that people commit every day and when confessed they are, "Under the Blood of Jesus"

Finance Guy said...

ace said...
I have to work a double shift at Burger King tomorrow.

Ace, you are way to classy a guy to be working at BK, I bet you really work at Chick-fil-A...or Outback Steakhouse!

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