Monday, December 18, 2006

Today's Media Coverage - December 19, 2006

National radio talk show host, Michael Reagan, had a segment about Bellevue about 11 or 12 minutes into the third hour of his broadcast on December 18th. The relevant excerpt from that show can also be heard here in the December 18th entry.

Thanks to westtnbarrister for capturing this audio.

The Commercial Appeal ran this article on December 19th. (Scroll down on that page.)

Channel 5 News in Memphis ran this story on the 5:00 p.m. newscast on December 18th. A comments section is included.

Channel 3 News in Memphis ran a similar story at 6:00 p.m. on December 18th.

Both Channel 5's and Channel 3's stories featured interviews with Bellevue member Tim Coggins.

FOX Channel 13 in Memphis ran an interview with Jim Haywood regarding this same story December 18th at 9:00 p.m. and December 19th at 8:00 a.m.

Let's clear up something right now! A few people have implied that Dr. Rogers and/or Bob Sorrell may have known about this situation. This is a quote from FOX13's story:

"The wife of former Head Pastor Adrian Rogers called FOX13 about the situation.

"She wanted to make it clear that her husband had not been aware of these allegations. She said Williams himself told her that Pastor Rogers didn't know.

"Retired Associate Pastor Bob Sorrell also called FOX13 to say he wasn't aware either."


Some of these stations may rerun their segments during the day today (December 19th), and the story has been streaming in the news ticker along the bottom of the screen on FOX13.

318 comments:

1 – 200 of 318   Newer›   Newest»
Bin Wonderin said...
This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
Bin Wonderin said...
This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
WOUNDEDANDBLEEDING said...

NEWS 3 REPORT

Bellevue minister investigated for "moral failure"

MEMPHIS, TN -- Members of Bellevue Baptist Church are praying. Praying for one of their ministers whose possible sins of the past are haunting him today.

Church officials confirmed Sunday they've launched an internal investigation of Minister Paul Williams. A church spokesman released a statement saying Williams has been released with pay because of "past, but highly concerning moral failure."

During Sunday's service, Bellevue Pastor Dr. Steven Gaines admitted he's known about the "moral failure" for at least six months saying, "In June of this year he shared with me a discussion regarding the activity that took place 17-years ago. He told me the activity has ceased."

westtnbarrister said...

For anyone who wants to hear the Michael Reagan discuss Bellevue, check out the link below. You will find links to stations that carry the show on a delay.

http://streamingradioguide.com/radio-show.php?show=546

Anonymous said...

Mr. Haywood and his followers need to leave Bellevue, not our Pastor he is the best man for the task and he has proven himself to be a great man of integrity and strength. Dr. Roger would be proud that he passed his pulpit down to Steve Gaines who in time will prove to be just as strong as Dr. Rogers. He has and continues to handle himself in a godly way under the most difficult circumstances. Yes, I am giving him a standing ovation!

Anonymous said...

Mr. Haywood and his followers need to leave Bellevue, not our Pastor he is the best man for the task and he has proven himself to be a great man of integrity and strength. Dr. Roger would be proud that he passed his pulpit down to Steve Gaines who in time will prove to be just as strong as Dr. Rogers. He has and continues to handle himself in a godly way under the most difficult circumstances. Yes, I am giving him a standing ovation!

I will continue to fall on my face in worship and reverence of the Lord Jesus Christ while you partake in your standing ovations of a mere man in a pulpit.

New BBC Open Forum said...

bin wonderin,

Thanks for that information!

NBBCOF

New BBC Open Forum said...

billie wrote:

"Mr. Haywood and his followers... "

I wasn't aware Mr. Haywood had any followers.

"Yes, I am giving him a standing ovation!"

Wow. I rest my case.

chazzo said...

chazzo said...
Can you imagine....Because SG and SG supporters/current leadership have either stated or implied that
Pastor Rogers was aware of the PW
"indescretion", Mrs Rogers had to call channel 13 to defend her late husband's name. They replayed the SG audio from Sunday, and listening closely, he does blame unnamed past leaders. He HAD to know many would believe he was speaking of Pastor Rogers. His presentation was too practiced and polished to think a single word spoken was not carefully chosen.
God will treat Bellevue leadership with his Holy, Rightous, sword.
Where or where are our Deacons??

Anonymous said...

Head Pastor Adrian Williams? From the 4th paragraph in the thread description.

Joe Sumrow said...

You folks are sick!!! Steve Gaines did not harm anyone. This is a problem with Paul Williams. Why don't you spend your time praying for the Williams family instead of trying to tear apart this church. No one can say what Dr. Rogers knew or did not know. With all due respect to Mrs. Rogers, she cant say with certainty what Dr. Rogers knew.

Astounded said "I will continue to fall on my face in worship and reverence of the Lord Jesus Christ while you partake in your standing ovations of a mere man in a pulpit." You guys are so full of yourselves. Your self-righteousness makes me nauseous.

Anonymous said...

Anybody else see this post under the channel 5 article (posts):

The problem that is starting arguments appears to be that the church is not REALLY saying what this man did. That leaves room for speculation, and is leading to arguments...THE MAN HURT TWO
CHILDREN. Fact!
WMCTV.COM Visitor:

See: http://www.wmctv.com/Global/story.asp?S=5830492

Anonymous said...

Billie,

If PW did anything to any other child in the last six months, then you might have to start a prison ministry to keep listening to SG.

Dr. Rogers would have been shocked, grieved, and angry as the rest of the folks who found this out have been. What happened to common sense??

Based on some of the posts at channel 5, Brian Miller seems to have his hands full too. If he was part of the "paid leave" decision, I suspect others will question his judgment as well.

Anonymous said...

Steve Gaines ran off other ministers at West Jackson Baptist Church by making events in their lives appear as huge sins that were unforgiveable. There is only 1 unpardonable sin. May God forgive Steve Gaines for the same pride issues he had at West Jackson Baptist Church so many years ago. Paul Williams MAY have committed a sin 17 years ago but so did Steve Gaines and probably many other members of Bellevue. Don't let Steve Gaines be your personal moral compass...that's God's job!

Anonymous said...

Joe Sumrow,

We are actually quite sane. Please ask around and see how many Baptist pastors would have allowed a confessed pedophile minister to remain at their job for six months after finding out.

Get back with us and we'll pick up there.

Anonymous said...

I feel sorry for PW and his family. I know that what he did was wrong, but did he have to have his picture on the tv where thousands can see it. This matter should have been delt with by SG in June and none of this would be to the level it is now. This matter is discrediting our Pastor and our church. This is truly sad.

Bin Wonderin said...

Joe said:

You folks are sick!!!

Joe,

It is the child rapist who is sick.

Steve Gaines did not harm anyone.

The point is SG put BBC members in harm's way for the past six months. He should have terminated PW on the spot. It is a no brainer. Do you think it is a good idea to have an admitted child rapist screening and interviewing volunteers for the children's or any other department?

If the guy that runs ECS knew about this six months ago and supported keeping PW on staff I suspect his job may be toast too. Parent's take a dim view of overlooking known child sex offenders when it comes to staffing. Significant failure of the most basic job of leadership. Protect the safelty of the children. What were these guys thinking?

Anonymous said...

You folks are sick!!! Steve Gaines did not harm anyone.

If Steve Gaines new about this for 6 months and did nothing, he harmed EVERYONE connected with BBC.


This is a problem with Paul Williams. Why don't you spend your time praying for the Williams family instead of trying to tear apart this church.

I will pray for Paul Williams, his victims and his family. I will also pray for the people in collusion with him to retain him as a minister of BBC. I will also pray that the Lord will remove these ministers so that BBC can return to the mission of leading souls to Christ.


Your self-righteousness makes me nauseous

Please don't confuse me with Steve Gaines and/or other staff members of BBC.

Anonymous said...

Repost from anothter thread:

Kicked in the gut! said...
Hello Bellevue,

I have been in the stands watching this conflict for months. I can remain silent no longer.

More than twenty-five years ago I was repeatedly victimized by a family member. I vividly remember his warm breath on my neck, the odor of beer stinging my nostrils. I remember the scratch of his whiskers on my innocent face. Members of my family knew about this and did nothing. They remained silent and to this day refuse to openly discuss it. I was often left in this man’s care so my mother could go on dates and spend weekend with friends. My own mother enabled my abuse! This same man victimized others in my family as well. The Lord has strengthened me and has helped me lead a normal life in spite of what happened to me. His other victims have not been so lucky. I know first hand the heartache of incest. God can heal you, but you never forget. It is with me every day of my life. Incest ruins lives. It ruins families, usually for generations.

A few years ago I volunteered to serve in Bellevue’s nursery. As part of the screening process I admitted I was the victim of child sexual abuse, so I was asked to counsel with a Bellevue minister. I willingly submitted to the requested counseling. I told this man what happened to me in detail. He prayed for me and he described the tremendous efforts of Bellevue to prevent child molesters from accessing our children. I felt good knowing what our church was doing and it reassured me my own children were safe.

I have learned the identity of the child molester at Bellevue. I have learned the very man I counseled with is himself a pedophile. I cannot describe the anger I feel right now. I am grief stricken when I remember my counseling session with this “man of God.” He asked for intimate details. I thought it was strange at the time, but I answered him fully. What was he thinking about while I described my childhood terror? I was forced to relive my experience in front of a man who probably enjoyed what I told him. I call that spiritual rape! Am I the only one this happened to?

Bellevue, regardless of how you feel about any other issue in this conflict, please unite to condemn our church’s actions. This accused pedophile still works for Bellevue today! I have lost all respect for our pastor and anyone else who helped hide this man’s sin. I know the pain that I experienced when my family ‘looked the other way’ and kept silent. My heart breaks for the victims of this minister. I grieve for the additional pain heaped on them by those who knew and did nothing. The pastor and all of this man’s protectors must leave our church NOW!

Some of you have screamed “touch not mine anointed.” What are we to do when “mine anointed” have touched us?

1:31 PM, December 15, 2006

allofgrace said...

joe sumrow,
Anyone who witnessed the kind of relationship and marriage that Dr. and Mrs. Rogers had, would be right in assuming that Mrs. Rogers would know if her husband was aware of such a thing. Trying to lay this at the feet of Dr. Rogers is what's nauseating, not to mention cowardly.

And btw..what makes you so sure no one here is praying for the Williams family?...you couldn't possibly know that...right?...your own self-righteousness is showing through.

Anonymous said...

I think Steve Gaines tried to play this off on the previous administration. I think The Rogers family and the Sorrell family should roast Steve Gaines for this kick in the gut. Steve Gaines mishandles this 6 months ago so he blames others for his mistakes. Boy does this sound familiar. I guess it was a mistake of the head and not the heart again.

phil413 said...

Billie posted:
Mr. Haywood and his followers need to leave Bellevue, not our Pastor he is the best man for the task and he has proven himself to be a great man of integrity and strength.
Response:
Then please tell me why we have had more issues involving the lack of intregity from the pulpit in the last 14 months than in the last 50+ years combined.
Psalm 118:6
David Matlock

Joe Sumrow said...

Steve Gaines can't win with you guys. You see blood in the water and like sharks you attack. Why did PW come foward and admit this to Steve Gaines? You have more anger towards SG than you do PW. Thats what is sick.

And by the way....all of you that want to rebut my point...how about posting with your names.

Anonymous said...

"I think Steve Gaines tried to play this off on the previous administration."

Can Dr. Gaines do no right? I agree with you that Dr. Gaines should have handled this sooner; but as one commenter said in a previous thread, Dr. Gaines is very torn up about the ordeal, and he wants to resolve this issue. Not everything is about politics and money. I hope you will all join in with me in praying that God would grant Dr. Gaines wisdom and guidance, as God indeed was the one that placed Dr. Gaines at Bellevue and He has a purpose for him being here.

chazzo said...

SOS_2000 said...
I feel sorry for PW and his family. I know that what he did was wrong, but did he have to have his picture on the tv where thousands can see it.

WHY DIDN'T PW RESIGN???

The pedophile profile is one of great ego and control. To do what most any of us would believe as the "right thing" and quietly resign is outside his core nature. After all, why didn't he leave the ministry 17 years ago?
For the same reason. It is against his core nature. The nature of a pedophile.

Anonymous said...

Joe Sumrow said...
"No one can say what Dr. Rogers knew or did not know. With all due respect to Mrs. Rogers, she cant say with certainty what Dr. Rogers knew."

----

You are wrong!

You need to back off defaming Mrs. Rogers and calling into question her ability to speak to this matter. If she says he didn't know - then Dr. Rogers did not know.

She is an exceptional woman in every way and you owe her more respect than that. Obviously you are either unwilling or unable able to use logic, reasonable assertions and have no idea the quality and integrity of the woman of whom you speak. Further you are not taking into account how Pastor Rogers demonstrated his convictions and scriptural standards as he dealt with serious matters in the past. You shame yourself!

Andrew

phil413 said...

Joe Sumrow said...
"No one can say what Dr. Rogers knew or did not know. With all due respect to Mrs. Rogers, she cant say with certainty what Dr. Rogers knew."
Response:
Hey Joe,
Even Paul Williams has said that Dr Rodgers didn't know about this gross sin that the current administration calls "moral failure". I guess that means your going to have to find someone else to shift the blame to.
Psalm 118:6
David Matlock

Anonymous said...

graceupongrace said..I agree with you that Dr. Gaines should have handled this sooner; but as one commenter said in a previous thread, Dr. Gaines is very torn up about the ordeal,

Then why did he do nothing and endanger the thousands of children at Bellevue.

and he wants to resolve this issue.

He could have resolved it six months ago.

Not everything is about politics and money.

Are you referring to Steve Gaines,Harry Smith and Bruce Brooke

I hope you will all join in with me in praying that God would grant Dr. Gaines wisdom and guidance,

Yes ,Steve has not acted wisely in his handling of the molester.God gave man the Bible to speak to us .Maybe Steve should read it and apply its principals to his life.

as God indeed was the one that placed Dr. Gaines at Bellevue and He has a purpose for him being here.

Yes sometimes God places leaders over us to lead and somethimes to humble us .and sometimes to humble them.

Tim said...

The "moral failure" of one man has been compounded by the "moral failure" of another. It shouldn't take 6 months to determine what to do in a situation such as this. It shouldn't take 6 seconds. I suppose the reason that it is such a simple decision for most of us is that we don't possess a Phd in theology.

Can anyone honestly believe that they would trust the physical well being of their children to the decisions made by Steve Gaines? The lack of judgment in this situation alone is enough that I would not.

How much more important is the spiritual well being of our church and our children?

Anonymous said...

Regardless of whether or not you like Dr. Gaines... let me get this straight. Are you saying you will disobey the Biblical mandate to pray for our leaders?

Anonymous said...

Steve has said that Paul Williams confronted him with this information and that this had happened 17 years ago. Something is not kosher here. First, if this happened 17 years ago, why did Paul Williams go to Steve (knowing how Steve handles things and people - meaning, letting staff go because they do not agree with him or question him) on his own free will and disclose this information? Paul knew Dr. Rogers very well. He knew that Dr. Rogers would not have allowed it! Did Steve (or perhaps someone else) look in a file by chance in Biblical Guidance and call Paul Williams in and question him or his family members? I have a hard time thinking that Paul Williams would willingly go in (out of the blue)and disclose information of this nature to someone he has known possibly over a year. Could this be a diversion by Steve or his men? (Clinton was forever playing this angle).

There has been a statement made by Steve to someone, "You know something about me that you aren't telling me." (He said that with a look of fear on his face. By the way, I believe this statement was made before the first meeting that was held in Bartlett. Steve Tucker and Gene Howard both said that for the first time they saw real concern and fear in Steve. For those who attended the meeting that night, remember Mark Sharpe said that Steve had called around 11:00pm the night before the meeting and asked that some things not be shared. Maybe Steve is afraid that there is something known about him. It would explain the urgency of the late night phone call. It would explain the "Fence Fiasco". It would explain the cover-ups)
What is Steve Gaines hiding??
TRUTH! TRUTH! TRUTH! TRUTH! TRUTH!

Joe Sumrow said...

Andrew and David,

I am not questioning Ms. Rogers integrity. Quit adding to my comment. Dr. Rogers could have been aware of things that she was not. That was and is my point.

And on Matlocks point...I'm not looking for anyone to shift the blame. I am blaming this on Paul Williams...the man who committed the crime. Why did he come to SG in JUNE?

Anonymous said...

Laura: I believe, though someone correct me if I'm wrong, that Mr. Williams' son came out about the event around that time, and thus Dr. Gaines talked with him as a result.

Anonymous said...

graceupongrace ,
Let me ask you a question
Would you want a known child molester to counsel or teach your child?
I am a parent and am furious over this.I feel that my children were exposed to danger.In all honesty can you not see where we are comming from.

Anonymous said...

Trucker, I have already voiced my opinion that Dr. Gaines should have dealt with this earlier. I absolutely see where you're coming. But Dr. Gaines has put Paul Williams on a leave of absence now and I am willing to forgive him (Dr. Gaines). I don't want to be guilty of a fault-finding spirit, looking to criticize Dr. Gaines for everything he does. This is a very hard time for him and his family and I think prayer is my #1 duty.

phil413 said...

Hey Joe,
You actually seem to be questioning the intregity of Dr Rodgers by insinuating that he possibly knew of this situation. I didn't add to your comment. What PW did is the worst thing I can think of. My question is, why did SG not deal with this in a direct manner 6 months ago? And yes, you are trying to shift blame by questioning whether Dr Rodgers knew when you have NO facts to back you up. On the other hand SG admitted he has known about this for 6 months.

Finance Guy said...

to all re Billie and Joe,
There are lots of those at Bellevue. Keep in mind, there are lots of people in Ted Haggards former congregation that defend him TO THIS DAY and attack those who 'outed" him as "ungodly", "Sick" and "self rightouses."
Stay the course

dewaynehartsoe said...

When I first heard that SG was going to be our new pastor, I was elated as most BBC members were. I did not know the man, but I trusted the search committee. When he first came I thought that God had sent him to BBC. After all these things started happening I changed my thinking to maybe God had sent SG to BBC to reveal the "sin in the camp" and get us back on the right track.

Now I have begun to rethink my position, after having a good conversation with a very godly minister. Now I realize God could have sent us a man like Mike Spradlin or Ken Whitten and we would have kept going and growing in the Lord.

Instead the search committee was too focused on one man and did not do their homework or SG would never have become pastor of BBC. All they had to do was check with people in his former churches and they would have known he was not the man God wanted for BBC.

I think we need to quit blaming God for sending SG to BBC. GOD LOVES US TOO MUCH TO DO THAT TO US.

imho

Anonymous said...

Joe,

Quit adding to my comment.

Welcome to the forums. You will soon realize that a lot of these people love to put words in your mouth, twist your words around and etc. Some often quote you as saying stuff you never even said. It's pathetic, but true...so you might as well get used to it!

Finance Guy said...

I don't want to be guilty of a fault-finding spirit, looking to criticize Dr. Gaines for everything he does.

Grace,
Two questions:1)At what point is it not "criticisim" and is just plain ole accountability and 2)how much "poor judgment" are you willing to suffer under this pastor before enough is enough?

Anonymous said...

WHOA nhisname... now that's a big theological jump. Are you saying that something occurred outside God's control? That God did not ordain that Dr. Gaines become pastor of Bellevue?

Anonymous said...

NHisName,

You are wrong. And I will leave it at that...

dewaynehartsoe said...

graceupongrace said...

DO NOT TRY TO PUT WORDS IN MY MOUTH. I state my opinion and I stand by it. I will not respond to anything else you post so feel free to say whatever you like. It will be YOUR PROBLEM.

IMHO

Finance Guy said...

When Steve Gaines was presented to the church, one thing that struck me was that we were told that "certain" members of the search committee were unsure that Steve Gaines was strong enough to be Pastor of BBC. Looks like whoever that was, was prophetic. SG didn’t have the guts to remove a pedaphile from a leadership position until forced to by a group of "troublemakers".

Anonymous said...

To financeguy,

"1)At what point is it not "criticisim" and is just plain ole accountability"

1 Timothy 6 warns against "unhealthy interest in controversies," and the Bible says we ought to avoid foolish quarrels.

Is a pedophile on staff at Bellevue a big deal? YES. Don't get me wrong. But, for instance, one of our minister's sisters drinking alcohol is an example of a foolish controversy (someone talked about it in another thread on the board), seeing as how drinking alcohol isn't a sin (John 2, anyone?).

You ought to err on the side of compassion and forgiveness rather than cynicism. Again, I hope you understand my heart here, and I understand there are some major issues at Bellevue; however, some people go way too far.

2)how much "poor judgment" are you willing to suffer under this pastor before enough is enough?

That would imply that I'm suffering at Bellevue, but with all honesty I believe God has put Dr. Gaines in my life for a reason and his preaching has been a blessing to me.

I love my church said...

I just talked to WTB. He has the Michael Reagan recording up on Cafe Kudzu.

dewaynehartsoe said...

looks like we have a few new "deacons" on here tonight. Maybe I was wrong about just a few who need to be removed. We may need to remove about 86 of them.

Anonymous said...

nhisname, I have put no words in your mouth. I quote:

"I think we need to quit blaming God for sending SG to BBC. GOD LOVES US TOO MUCH TO DO THAT TO US."

You're right, your words speak for themselves. And they are very scripturally unsound.

Anonymous said...

FinaceGuy,

When Steve Gaines was presented to the church, one thing that struck me was that we were told that "certain" members of the search committee were unsure that Steve Gaines was strong enough to be Pastor of BBC.

It looks like Dr. Gaines is pretty strong. After all these lies surrounding him regarding expenses and other junk...if I were him I would have left a long time ago. I'd say, "You think I'm stealing from the church? C-yah later!" These things were proven as lies already so you have to applaud Gaines for his stand!

But instead of leaving, he stays strong and fights Satan's attack on him and the church. That is highly commendable

Anonymous said...

One question that needs to be investigated. I don't know the answer, but have know that the problem existed.

Find out if Steve Gaines is continuing to receive advances on his payroll. Then find out why the funds would be needed in advance. You might find some answers to a few questions. It is something that I wondered about, but don't have the answers.

Anonymous said...

ace said...
NHisName,

You are wrong. And I will leave it at that...


I have to agree wholeheartedly. God's plan was for Steve Gaines to be pastor of BBC. We should not even question whether or not that is the case. It goes back to the old saying "God works in mysterious ways." God ordained Saul as King of Israel. God ordained Judas as a disciple of Christ.

There is no doubt that Steve Gaines serving as pastor of BBC is part of God's plan.

Anonymous said...

Excellent post, astounded...my thoughts exactly.

Finance Guy said...

well Grace,
You and I are just going to have to disagree, and on your point about the alcohol...if you really think it's a foolish controversy to ask ministers and deacons to set an example to the congregation, and then ignore it when they don't, then Bellevue needs to revise it's code of conduct for deacons and ministers, and tell them they no longer have to set an example to the congregration, and are free to engage in whatever activity their personal convictions will allow.

Anonymous said...

I am amazed as to how many people are now blaming Dr.Rogers for the PW issue,via Steve Gaines at Sundays announcement.It's interesting that Dr.Rogers was so beloved by this congreation, that so many will now turn their backs and attack Dr. Rogers based on the words of Steve Gaines.

allofgrace said...

joe sumrow,
You keep asking why did Paul Williams come to Dr. Gaines in June. Do you know the answer to that?...if so, would you care to share that information?

Finance Guy said...

But instead of leaving, he stays strong and fights Satan's attack on him and the church. That is highly commendable
You think it's "Highly commendable" that he is quick to remove and runoff any and all people....those who are known to be godly...for the simple "sin" of questioning the pastors actions in light of Scripture...and yet he allows a CONFESSED child molestor to remain on staff with no words of warning to the congregation?

Anonymous said...

Financeguy, the problem is that it was the minister's sister, not the minister himself. But I do believe that church policy should be changed: God created alcohol, and it is possible to drink to the glory of God (i.e. not be drunk with too much wine, as the Bible says), just as Jesus did. But this is something most of you have agreement even with Dr. Gaines on, so maybe I shouldn't try to destroy that last bit of common ground left.

Finance Guy said...

Ace,
Do you also think it's commendable that he tells lies and half truthful deceptions from the pulpit on a regular basis? You think it's commendable that he preaches a sermon comparing the mother of Jesus to a Child molester?
Your thoughts?

Anonymous said...

Financeguy,
Did Dr. Gaines really compare Mary to Paul Williams in his sermon? I was in the 11:00 service, so maybe he said something at 9:30 that he didn't later.

Anonymous said...

I agree with Ace and Astounded that Steve Gaines was God's man for Bellevue to bring punishment for our prideful nature.
As more and more people see the real Steve Gaines, they are starting to scratch their head and wonder why?

Anonymous said...

Finance,

You think it's "Highly commendable" that he is quick to remove and runoff any and all people....

Who says he's running off all people opposed to him? Could you name a few people you're talking about? I was going to post something about some of those people but I want to make sure we're thinking of the same person.

for the simple "sin" of questioning the pastors actions in light of Scripture...

There is a difference between questioning and ambusing/attacking.

Tim said...

graceupongrace said...
WHOA nhisname... now that's a big theological jump. Are you saying that something occurred outside God's control? That God did not ordain that Dr. Gaines become pastor of Bellevue?


RESPONSE:

WHOA graceupongrace... now that's a bigger theological jump.

Are you saying that God does not allow things that he does not condone? I believe that you have made quite a theological jump.

WOUNDEDANDBLEEDING said...

Greeting to you in Jesus` holy name!

I am so grateful that Paul Williams personally went to Sister Joyce Rogers and told her that our beloved Pastor Rogers was never privy to what has now come to light. I don`t know when he did this but I am so glad he did.

If you ever hear anyone saying that Pastor Rogers knew this or even hinting that he did, please tell them that Paul has made it clear that Pastor Rogers never knew it.

Let`s thank the LORD for that news tonigth!

Under HIS wings and in HIS love,

Sister Pam

dewaynehartsoe said...

My last comment on this.

God has a perfect will and a permissive will. We can circumvent His perfect will and we do most of the time. When we do so we end up with His permissive will. God did allow SG to come to BBC, but what I am saying is this just may not have been His perfect will for BBC. I don't know about some of you who defend SG but I know that I and most who post here want the man God has for BBC.

I will keep doing whatever I can to remove those leaders who have strayed from the Truth.

I have already forgiven SG and the leadership for all they have done. I forgive you for blasting me, and I will go to bed with a clean heart tonight and hopefully most every night for the rest of my life. No, I do not profess to be sinless, but I do ask God regularly to show me any sin in my life so that I can confess it and forsake it. With God's help I will keep hearing God talking to me.

Anonymous said...

tim,
"Are you saying that God does not allow things that he does not condone? I believe that you have made quite a theological jump."

He does not condone evil, yet he ordained that evil be, and He is still the great king of kings. Remember, God even brings good out of evil: read Acts 14:16 and Genesis 50:20.

2006Huldah said...

To "graceupongrace", you asked as follows:

"...let me get this straight. Are you saying you will disobey the Biblical mandate to pray for our leaders?"

Dearest graceupongrace,
Since I and others have been praying for our leaders, I must accept this situation as it now stands as the result of our prayers. The Lord is chastising those who have sinned against him, particularly, those in leadership since he requires a higher standard of them. Can you not see?

Finance Guy said...

grace
"the problem is" , we have a church leadership that plays fast and loose with the truth. More concerned about protecting themselves, their empires, and maintaining a false appearance of "unity" than in Konina fellowship, and revival, reconciliation and restoration.
There are some deep problems at Bellevue. All this stuff about credit card charges and whatnot is a distraction. I believe we have not yet seen the end of all this.

Ace,
On this you and I agree. God is firmly in control, and will work this to His ends.

Anonymous said...

Finance,

Do you also think it's commendable that he tells lies and half truthful deceptions from the pulpit on a regular basis?

No, I wouldn't consider that commendable if he did that...but I have failed to see that.

You think it's commendable that he preaches a sermon comparing the mother of Jesus to a Child molester?

Did he specifically compare Mary to a child molester? Or is that something you're making up to fit your story and to make you feel better about this issue and just trying to find ammo to attack Steve with? You're reading way into his sermons.

Also - I heard it from a very reliable source of the topic of this Sunday's sermon is planned around a certain event that is talked about a lot as of recently... I can't believe that Steve is planning to talk about.... Christmas...this just proves that he writes his sermons to satisfy current events and etc. <-- note the sarcasm. This is how "silly" (for the lack of another word) you guys are acting.

Anonymous said...

Here are a few important changes that would help during these days of crisis in leadership:

I. Pastoral Accountability to the Congregation:
1. A business meeting in accord with Matthew 18 to deal with the issues that remain related to Mark Sharpe and "the Dream"... and any other loose ends that should have been dealt with months ago!!
2. The giving records of the membership and the ministers on staff at Bellevue should never be for pastoral review in any shape, form, or fashion.
3. No church credit cards.
4. An admission Dr. Gaines should have never given $25k to FUMC and an explanation of policy changes to prevent a repeat.
5. A policy for open books on Holy land trips and no overcharging of members. Free tickets for the host and wife are fine but not for anybody else.
6. Full disclosure of ministerial compensation: salary + benefit breakdown, etc.
7. Timely removal from office of ministers guilty of sexual immorality with immediate and timely coordination with the appropriate authorities if any laws have been broken by a minister (no matter how long ago), including thorough investigation of the matter when the minister’s conduct may have affected other church members or their children.

II. Congregational Church governance:
Some of the congregation has awakened to the reality that our church has a set of "lay-elders," a close knit group of men who manage to be appointed to key positions year after year. The rest of the congregation needs to be awakened.

1. Those who are part of this lay-elder "power block" need to step down from positions of influence for a long time. Bellevue needs “new blood” in these key positions.
2. There needs to be the signing of a public conflict of interest form for any member that has any business contract to provide services for the church. These people should not be allowed to serve on committees that review bids for their services.
3. Congregational nomination of and election of all of the Board of Directors as called for in the 1929 bylaws.
4. A quarterly business meeting with open mike Q&A with each committee chairman. **The current bylaws mention "monthly" business meetings! When were they changed??
5. A good updated set of bylaws similar to GBC.
6. A transparent committee selection process.
7. Much greater congregational oversight of the current budget with a transparent policy for consideration of non-budgeted expenditures exceeding a reasonable amount.
8. Thorough communication with the Congregation for ANY capital project well in advance of any vote. Building prayer buildings or any other type of building should be brought through proper channels to the congregation for prayerful consideration--not coerced "rubber stamping." [By the way, Dr. Rogers taught us quite a bit about prayer. As a matter of fact, I believe all of the current buildings ARE prayer buildings already. He and Dr. Whitmire also taught us quite a bit about worship also... but that's another topic].
9. Bellevue needs to reject Warrenism fully and finally.
10. Higher standards should be put in place for the hiring of "ministers." Seminary training should be considered a normal prerequisite.

III. Treatment of ministers on staff at BBC and members:
1. A whistle blower policy for ministers, staff, and members.
2. The end of heavy handed dealing with ministers, staff, and members; and the end of signing non-disclosure statements. All ministers who have been pressured or asked to sign such non-disclosure statements should be released from them in writing by BBC! Former staff should be allowed to address the congregation and/or the deacon body either in writing or in person without any fear of reprisal regarding their exit from BBC. Gaines has confessed to mishandling Dr. Whimire's exit... The congregation now needs to hear from Dr. Whimire--and several others--by letter or in person IN THEIR OWN WORDS. The congregation needs to know how their leadership has treated and is treating ministers who leave the service of our Lord through BBC.
3. Forgiveness for those in leadership who have allowed this to deteriorate to this point--AND consequences for their actions.

All in my opinion as usual.

We are to be “providing things honestly in the sight of all men” (Rom. 12:17). Revival, reform, congregational oversight... for there is level ground at Calvary and "he who would be great among you shall be the servant of all."

Anonymous said...

Can anyone here explain to me why there are people defending the harboring of aCHILD MOLESTERin a conservative Baptist Church?
Do you agree that a child molester is an evil person.If not would you let one move in with you?

Anonymous said...

To the board...

Please, please don't feed the trolls. As the main page for this blog says, we have a very serious problem.

Certain posters are not adding anything to this blog that is helpful.

Regardless of what they think of this blog, the fact of the matter is that without this blog PW would still returning to work in the morning.

I do not know of ANY reputable minister in the SBC who would condone keeping a confessed pedophile on as a minister for a moment... much less six months.

Some are coming to this board and are just now finding out. After the shock wears off, and after the disgust wears off, there will be anger.

It is not a matter of if, but when the media decide to handle this. Between that attention and the coming parental revolt, the leadership has major problems ahead.

Reality was: Bellevue had a confessed pedophile in a senior ministerial position and left him there for six months.

Perception was: nothing... the people didn't know--until this blog shed light on the matter.

Now Perception is beginning to catch up with reality.

This blog needs to be a place that makes sense and a place of clarity while the moral compass of Bellevue's leadership spins out of control.

Finance Guy said...

There is a difference between questioning and ambusing/attacking.

Ace,
I'm sorry. I forgot about the part where Mark Sharpe and his buddies in a show of force, crawled over his fence, and visited Steve Gaines house under cover of darkness, unannounced and "ambushed him"
My bad.

You gonna answer my question about it being commendable for the pastor to leave PW on staff the way he did? I'm starting to believe that in the twisted world that is the Bellevue executive offices, you all feel that somehow, the Pastor was justified to "keep this confidential" in June.

dewaynehartsoe said...

trucker said...
Can anyone here explain to me why there are people defending the harboring of aCHILD MOLESTERin a conservative Baptist Church?
Do you agree that a child molester is an evil person.If not would you let one move in with you?

AMEN AMEN AMEN AND AMEN

Anonymous said...

2006huldah,
While we may not agree about Dr. Gaines, let me be the first to personally thank you for praying for the leadership of Bellevue, and encourage you to keep on praying!

financeguy,
It may turn out in the end that Dr. Gaines is not good for Bellevue. But I hope you will at least consider developing a forgiving and not fault-finding spirit (not necessarily you, but there are many on this board who I think this applies to, and I'm not sure it's such a great witness to the world). I accept Dr. Gaines apologies he made a few weeks ago, as well as his explanation this past Sunday about the recent events, and if there actually is something wrong in his heart (I don't think there is), that's something he'll have to answer to before Jesus.

Anonymous said...

NBBCOF,

If I keep posting something like 25+years is posting, would my posts be deleted or will you allow them to stay?

I am thinking about putting my own list together and posting it 50 times a day for people to read.

If anybody is behind what I mostly say and would like to contribute to my list, please email me...my address can be found in my profile.

Anonymous said...

What in world is BBC asking for evidence for when Paul W. has confessed to molesting, raping, sodomizing, ect?????

They have him on leave with pay pending an investigation of WHAT?????

Anonymous said...

Bellevue enjoyed the ministry of a minister who had integrity for thirty years.

Surely there are no ministers without sin, but there are ministers with integrity who would handle situations like this with integrity. There are ministers out there who do not hide behind Communications Committees. There are ministers out there who do not fear the people in their church and who welcome free and open dialog in a business meeting.

Have we seen enough to disillusion many of us... yes. The antidote for this is fixing our eyes on Jesus. He never lets us down.

When an undershepherd fails, the sheep need to call on the Good Shepherd to help them.

Let's pray for Bellevue. Let's pray for Steve Gaines. Let's pray for the family involved in this crisis. Let's especially pray for the main victim in this matter. Let's pray for the congregation's eyes to be opened to understand that the lack of moral, ethical, wise leadership at Bellevue is what is shaking this church and not some internet blog.

dewaynehartsoe said...

25+yrs@BBC

Thank you for your calming post. Sometimes these things can take on a life of their own.

Tim said...

graceupongrace said...

He does not condone evil, yet he ordained that evil be, and He is still the great king of kings. Remember, God even brings good out of evil: read Acts 14:16 and Genesis 50:20.

Response:
So do you believe that evil may have been ordained at Bellevue.

Anonymous said...

To the rest of the board:

Let's keep this thread as clean as possible tonight and in the morning.

Remember the fruits of the Spirit and pass them out as posters come to this board...

Return good for evil if someone comes trying to shift the blame here. Let's stay with the facts and avoid name calling and feeding the trolls.

Consider the fact that the audience contains: 1) members of Bellevue who are not up to speed yet on what has been happening at Bellevue; 2) the press; 3) possibly law enforcement; 4) hecklers of various stripes.

If you are coming to this blog for the first time, please read the whole first page of the Forum in order to get an idea of what has been discussed here.

Jesus' letters to the seven churches were placed in God's Word for all to see. They included rebukes for sin that included fornication. There were rebukes for leadership and members. Only the two churches in persecution received no rebuke from Him.

What would the text of His letter be to Bellevue today?

Anonymous said...

Ace, Chuck Taylor made it clear that he did not want anyone to be on this blog.

You say you are under the authority of Steve Gaines.

Do you have special permission to be here?

IF you don`t could you tell us why you go against their wishes?

If you do, could you tell us for what purpose you have special permission to be here?

Finance Guy said...

Did he specifically compare Mary to a child molester? Or is that something you're making up to fit your story and to make you feel better about this issue and just trying to find ammo to attack Steve with? You're reading way into his sermons.

I was there Sunday morning, and heard the sermon. You know exactly what I'm talking about. What an opportunity for the Pastor to speak out about the consequenses of sin! But he chooses to admonish all of us to "not be like the Pharisies who would have stoned Mary". They would have stoned Mary because they rejected Jesus, and would not accept the truth of the baby she was carrying. Not because she had been playing fast and loose, and was now reaping the fruits of her sin. Do you really think we are that naive?

Anonymous said...

tim,
"So do you believe that evil may have been ordained at Bellevue."

We live in a fallen world, and sin abounds. Dr. Rogers wasn't perfect, and he sinned while he was at Bellevue. (pause)

Similarly, Dr. Gaines isn't perfect, and he sins.

Yet, even when evil happens, God works all things for the good of those who love them.

Anonymous said...

FinanceGuy,

I'm sorry. I forgot about the part where Mark Sharpe and his buddies ..."ambushed him"

I shortened your quote but I think I kept the general gist of what you're saying. Perhaps Mark didn't do that, but what about posts like "I think some of you men need to be there when SG pulls into his parking place at BBC in the morning, and tell him we want answers and action!" on these forums? Suggestions like that essentially equal ambushing.

You gonna answer my question about it being commendable for the pastor to leave PW on staff the way he did?

For a person to be commended, to they have to be perfect? No - so for the sake of this argument, let's say that he shouldn't have left him on staff. Alright, so there is a mistake. I guess that disqualifies him as being a pastor because he isn't perfect, right?

Anonymous said...

David commited adultery and murdered somebody and God still said he was "A Man after God's own heart".

Paul murdered Christians for being Christians, but he was still very effective in the ministry.

God forgave them, just like he has forgiven you.

Just because Paul Williams made a mistake, it doesn't mean he cannot still be a minister.

Anonymous said...

TruthHound said...
What in world is BBC asking for evidence for when Paul W. has confessed to molesting, raping, sodomizing, ect?????

They have him on leave with pay pending an investigation of WHAT?????

11:19 PM, December 18, 2006


Truthhound,
Please don't state the truth to the gaines junta and their puppets.It confuses them.

Anonymous said...

25+yrs,
Thanks for your commitment to pray for our leaders. I know Dr. Gaines deeply appreciates the prayers.

But, why do you insist on calling people supportive of Dr. Gaines "trolls"? I am not aware of me calling anyone on this board names, so I (if you are indeed referring to me, along with others) am not sure why I deserve the name-calling. If any of you see me calling anyone names, please point it out and I will repent immediately.

I hope, 25+yrs, that you will commit as I am to a God-honoring discussion.

allofgrace said...

graceupongrace,
You seem to have a grasp on sovereign decree...if so then I will assume you also have a grasp on human responsibility...case in point...Cyrus was God's chastening rod to punish Israel..yet he punished Cyrus for what he did to Israel. By decree he used an evil king to punish his people for their sin...by precept..He punished Cyrus for doing exactly what He decreed he should do. Can you see how that might fit in this situation?

Anonymous said...

sickandtired,

You cannot square that with the Word of God. The qualifications include "blameless." Not chargeable from within the congregation or from without from the world. PW is disqualified on both counts.

Finance Guy said...

Ace
Do you also think it's commendable that he tells lies and half truthful deceptions from the pulpit on a regular basis?

No, I wouldn't consider that commendable if he did that...but I have failed to see that.


Dr Rogers used to say that some people can find Jesus for the same reason a burgler can't find a policeman. Perhaps you can't see it because you don't want to.

We'll start with the "wednesday night preacher" outright lie and the "whitmire apology" half truth.

Anonymous said...

Truthhound,

Ace, Chuck Taylor made it clear that he did not want anyone to be on this blog.

I never received a message from Chuck telling me not to be here. Where has he made this clear because he never told me anything about it...

You say you are under the authority of Steve Gaines.

I am - and so are you.

Do you have special permission to be here?

No, why would I need that? Gaines didn't tell me not to be here either.

IF you don`t could you tell us why you go against their wishes?

When did Chuck or Steve tell me not to be here? Please enlighten me.

Anonymous said...

Did Paul kill anyone after the scales fell from his eyes?

Did King David pay a high price for his sin?

I believe Paul Williams can be forgiven, cleansed, healed, and used by GOD but he no longer firs the Biblical requirement for a minister or even a deacon.

Anonymous said...

FinanceGuy,

I was there Sunday morning, and heard the sermon.

Congatulations. Would you like a cookie?

You know exactly what I'm talking about.

Actually, I don't...because I choose to focus on the message and the Bible instead of issues surrounding the church. We go to worship at Bellevue for what...3 hours a week. Can't we devote our attention to God for at least that much time without focusing on Steve? Come on, now...

...Do you really think we are that naive?

Honestly? Yes.

Anonymous said...

Ace

Are you saying that your pastor approves of you participating on this blog?

Anonymous said...

grace upon grace,

I was addressing those who have been here for some time who know exactly what I mean by trolls. It is not meant as derogatory but as a description readily understood by bloggers. This is a blog expression. Welcome to the world of blogging. We have our regular posters who fit the classic description. jmo.

Anonymous said...

25+,

So should David had been removed from his position of leadership because he was not blameless.

Paul referred to himself as "the chief of sinners", sounds like he made several mistakes. Should he have still been able to pastor?

Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying what PW did was fine, but I also think we shouldn't be so quick to condemn.

Anonymous said...

Just because Paul Williams made a mistake, it doesn't mean he cannot still be a minister.

11:25 PM, December 18, 2006


If sodomizing your son is a mistake then evidently there is no more sin in the world. We don't need a church or a pastor any longer as we no longer sin we make mistakes.
Thanks Steve Gaines and your blind supporters my children will love the new theology of BBC.

Finance Guy said...

ace
Alright, so there is a mistake. I guess that disqualifies him as being a pastor because he isn't perfect, right?

This is the latest in a string of "mistakes of the head". At what point does a series of "poor judgments" does disqualify a pastor from serving a congregation?

Also, the "ambushes" you refered to where suggestions by random people....not actual events. Unlike the pastors actual ambush of a deacon..at his house...at night...with "others". Plus, this pastor invites that by refusing to meet with his flock. Word on the street is that the victim in question had been trying to meet with him for some period of time, and wasn't succesful until after there was already discussion creeping out on this blog.
How you like them apples?

Anonymous said...

FinanceGuy,

We'll start with the "wednesday night preacher" outright lie

Wasn't this resolved a long time ago? Gaines was saying that he uses Wednesday nights for meetings + other church related stuff so that he can free up his other nights to spend with his family.

and the "whitmire apology" half truth.

Half truth means that half is also a lie. Could you please expand on what exactly was truthful in his apology and what part was a lie? Thanks in advance!

Anonymous said...

25+,
"I was addressing those who have been here for some time who know exactly what I mean by trolls. It is not meant as derogatory but as a description readily understood by bloggers. This is a blog expression. Welcome to the world of blogging. We have our regular posters who fit the classic description. jmo."

I don't appreciate the derogatory tone of that comment. I have actually run online websites for 9 years now and started a blog way before blogging was big, and I know exactly what trolls are. And it's not a nice thing to say on a Christian blog.

I hope you will commit as I have to a God-honoring discussion here.

Anonymous said...

Truthhound,

Are you saying that your pastor approves of you participating on this blog?

No, I'm not saying that at all.

Anonymous said...

so what sins disqualify you from the ministry and which ones can you commit and still stay?

allofgrace said...

graceuupongrace,
would you please see my 11:28 post?

Finance Guy said...

sickandtired
So should David had been removed from his position of leadership because he was not blameless.

If David was a priest of the congregation, it would have been a different story.

Plus, I read in your comment that you think it's okay to have admitted child molesters as ministers in position of leadership and authority in our churches. You and the Catholic church share common ground on this issue. Unfortuntaly, society does not, and there are Catholic Parishes going bankrupt from the lawsuits.

westtnbarrister said...

Sickandtired,

You say we shouldn't be so quick to condemn. Please tell me what sin you would condemn?

Did you know we have such high standards for our deacons (volunteer servants) that we do not allow tobacco users to even be nominated? Do you believe BBC should have a higher standard of conduct for deacons than our ministers?

Anonymous said...

FinanceGuy,

This is the latest in a string of "mistakes of the head". At what point does a series of "poor judgments" does disqualify a pastor from serving a congregation?

It really depends. You and I both make mistakes of the head all the time. Shame on us, but when do OUR mistakes disqualify us as being considered Christians? Never because God forgives and etc. Perhaps it's the same for him...but I really don't know so please don't quote this and argue it because I....again, I don't know.

Anonymous said...

financeguy,

so if somebody molested their son they can never be in the ministry? Even if they confess and repent?

allofgrace said...

sickandtired,
you ask a good question...how much sin does it take to disqualify one as a minister?...unlimited...murder? adultery? theft?...please tell me.

Anonymous said...

sickandtired,

You are not comparing apples with apples.

Paul Williams is not a king.

Paul the apostle spoke of his sins when he was unsaved when he spoke of persecuting the church of God.

PW is a minister for which there are qualifications given in God's Word.

Please go ask any pastor of another conservative Baptist church what they should have done immediately upon finding out what Gaines found out.

Don't ask me... Ask the other 30,000 or so minister in the SBC. I know what you will find out. Ask...

Anonymous said...

west,

we should condemn all sin. What I meant was that we should be willing to give him a second chance, after all, have you ever sinned?

Finance Guy said...

SickAndTired said...
so what sins disqualify you from the ministry and which ones can you commit and still stay?

Apparently in the world you live in (and the executive offices at BBC), there are none. Oh wait, the sin of speaking against the Pastor. That will for sure get you booted.

Anonymous said...

FinanceGuy,

Also, the "ambushes" you refered to where suggestions by random people....not actual events.

Plans to ambush, actually ambushing...is there really much of a difference? No, not really.

Word on the street is that the victim in question had been trying to meet with him for some period of time, and wasn't succesful until after there was already discussion creeping out on this blog.

Are you talking about Sharpe here? If so, he keeped asking for a meeting + he finally got his chance to have one. So what's the problem?

How you like them apples?

I don't like apples, to be honest. Apple juice, on the other hand, is great.

Anonymous said...

allofgrace,
Thanks for pointing the post out, otherwise I wouldn't have seen it; it seems every time I submit a comment there are 20 new ones.

"graceupongrace,
You seem to have a grasp on sovereign decree...if so then I will assume you also have a grasp on human responsibility...case in point...Cyrus was God's chastening rod to punish Israel..yet he punished Cyrus for what he did to Israel. By decree he used an evil king to punish his people for their sin...by precept..He punished Cyrus for doing exactly what He decreed he should do. Can you see how that might fit in this situation?"

I think it is dangerous and unChristian to compare Cyrus, a pagan, to Dr. Gaines, a Christian man. With all due respect, as Romans 11 says, none of us know the mind of God, and we also ought not speak this way of men who have authority over us. Can we criticize their actions? Yes. But comparing them to Cyrus is going way too far.

Anonymous said...

SickAndTired said...
Just because Paul Williams made a mistake, it doesn't mean he cannot still be a minister.

Personally I do not think that a rapist should ever again be a minister of any church.

Personally I don't think that anyone that would harbor a rapist should be a minister of any church.

I guess what I am saying, if I were the Czar of BBC I would immediately remove all staff that were involved in the cover-up of a rapist serving as a minister of BBC.

That being said.....

If God wants Paul Williams to serve as a minister of BBC, he WILL serve as a minister of BBC, just as Paul served Christ's early New Testiment Church.

While I may have my own finite opinions on who should serve on the staff of BBC, I also understand that God's will shall be done.

Finance Guy said...

Ace said
disqualify us as being considered Christians?

What are you, some kind of closet Church of Christ? We were talking about qualifications to lead a church (or any organization for that matter) and suddenly you are talking about losing your salvation?

Anonymous said...

financeguy,

you are assuming that I think no sin should disqualify you from ministry (though not permanently).

But could you please tell me which sins you think should disqualify one from ministry? And is it an absolute thing, where no matter what they should be removed?

Anonymous said...

SickAndTired said...
25+,

So should David had been removed from his position of leadership because he was not blameless.


Did David hide a child rapist and give him a position of authority?

Wonder how understanding you woild be if your son was raped by a minister of your church.

Anonymous said...

sickandtired,

I am actually going to have to agree with the others on this one. The Bible indeed says leaders should be of good reputation, to start with; and secondly, to know the nature of pedophilia is to know that this isn't a sin one simply leaves behind with the snap of a finger. As Dr. Mohler says, even after conversion / forgiveness we still have "limps," sins from our past lives that, in some cases, will not go away until we are glorified.

allofgrace said...

sickandtired,
In your mind...what would it take to disqualify someone for ministry?

Anonymous said...

westtnbarrister

My brother was nominated as a deacon at a time when the congregation was allowed to submit names ( they may still allow this but I don`t know).

He was called in for an interview and when they found out that his wife has been married before, he was disqualified immediately.

It was my brother`s only marriage but because he married a woman who had been divorced he could not be a deacon at Bellevue.

I have no argument over their decision, although I felt my brother would have been a very dedicated deacon but I do have take issue with the fact that there is one standard for those who are trying to get in to work, volunteer, and minister and another for those who are already in.

Anonymous said...

FinanceGuy,

We were talking about qualifications to lead a church (or any organization for that matter) and suddenly you are talking about losing your salvation?

Why don't you read my entire post? I was making a comparison and I don't appreciate you quoting me out of context. I have made sure I have never done that to you but I really could have fun if I started doing that...

allofgrace said...

allofgrace said...

graceupongrace,
You seem to have a grasp on sovereign decree...if so then I will assume you also have a grasp on human responsibility...case in point...Cyrus was God's chastening rod to punish Israel..yet he punished Cyrus for what he did to Israel. By decree he used an evil king to punish his people for their sin...by precept..He punished Cyrus for doing exactly what He decreed he should do. Can you see how that might fit in this situation?

11:28 PM, December 18, 2006
Delete

Anonymous said...

allofgrace,

I really can't say as an absolute.

I would have to see the individual situation.

Anonymous said...

25+ keep posting that list.

westtnbarrister said...

Sickandtired,

I believe in the total depravity of man. I know how sinful I am. By the grace of God I have never had the temptation to molest children.

I believe in giving Paul a second chance as a brother and as a human being, but I am unwilling to give him a second chance in ministry at my church. You can give him a second chance with your children and/or grandchildren, but not mine. I'm sorry for Paul, but this is a sin of disqualification from ministry. Period. There can be no exceptions. There is simply no way to rationalize this away.

Anonymous said...

sickandtired

We've had had qualifications for deacons for YEARS that they cannot have had a divorce. Do you believe this qualification should changed or do you agree that leaders in the church are held to a higher standard?

Many here love the Williams family - but Paul no longer meets the requirements for being a minister, for heaven's sake.

dewaynehartsoe said...

SickAndTired

Do you not know that in a SBC church if man who has never been before marries a woman who has been divorced is NOT qualified even to be a deacon much less a minister?

Finance Guy said...

ace
Plans to ambush, actually ambushing...is there really much of a difference? No, not really.

First, there are no plans to ambush that I'm aware of, just some wishful thinking on someones part

Second, I have been trained in the law, and the law would disagree with you. Let's replace "ambush" with "murder" just to drive the point home. "Plans to murder, actually murdering someone...is there really much of a difference?"

Stop trying to excuse what the pastor did by saying "but they want to ambush".

And by "victim" I meant PW's son.

Anonymous said...

allofgrace,
Did I miss something from your latest post...? I had already responded to it at 11:41 PM.

Anonymous said...

graceupongrace said...
tim,
"So do you believe that evil may have been ordained at Bellevue."

Well in the case of Paul Williams the answer is YES
or do you believe raping your son is a mistake

Anonymous said...

west,

not even if it was an isolated event 17 years ago and he has repented?

Would you be willing to accept him as a minister if it was God's will for him to stay?

allofgrace said...

graceupongrace,
I guess you're not going to answer my question.

Finance Guy said...

Ace
Why don't you read my entire post? I was making a comparison and I don't appreciate you quoting me out of context. I have made sure I have never done that to you but I really could have fun if I started doing that...

Point taken and please accept my apology. I did read it too fast. That was a sincere post from you, (i think) and I appreciate it.

Anonymous said...

Grace upon grace said:

"I don't appreciate the derogatory tone of that comment. I have actually run online websites for 9 years now and started a blog way before blogging was big, and I know exactly what trolls are. And it's not a nice thing to say on a Christian blog."

Response: Grace upon grace you are new to this blog. Those who have been here for a while know exactly what I was talking about. Please don't wear your feelings on your sleeve. You don't understand what we have had to put up with from time to time.

What I said was bland and on target.

BTW, You can't hear my tone. It is relaxed and sleepy right now--just for the record.

Anonymous said...

allofgrace,
I responded to your question at 11:41 PM, or am I missing something?

Anonymous said...

FinanceGuy,

First, there are no plans to ambush that I'm aware of, just some wishful thinking on someones part

The posts from earlier imply different thoughts, but whatever...I'll go with you on this for now for the sake of argument.

Second, I have been trained in the law, and the law would disagree with you. Let's replace "ambush" with "murder" just to drive the point home. "Plans to murder, actually murdering someone...is there really much of a difference?"

Well, actually murdering someone will give you more jail time than just planning to murder someone. Planning to murder someone leads a person to jail too...doesn't it?

New BBC Open Forum said...

ace wrote:

"If I keep posting something like 25+years is posting, would my posts be deleted or will you allow them to stay?"

ace,

If you ever post something like 25+years is posting, I'd certainly allow it to stay! But you haven't so far.

"I am thinking about putting my own list together and posting it 50 times a day for people to read."

I thought you already did post your "list" 50 times a day.

"...what about posts like 'I think some of you men need to be there when SG pulls into his parking place at BBC in the morning, and tell him we want answers and action!'" Suggestions like that essentially equal ambushing.

I agree with that. It pains me to admit it, but I agree.

NBBCOF

allofgrace said...

graceupongrace,
I wasn't comparing Cyrus to Dr. Gaines...rather the working of decree and precept..per your previous argument for Dr. Gaines being here by decree...that was just one example of decree/precept. My point being that neither you nor I can know why God decreed that Dr. Gaines is at Bellevue..to presume either of us does is trying to take a crowbar and force our way into God's eternal counsels...only in hindsight will we ever have even a hint of His purpose...that was my point.

Anonymous said...

FinanceGuy,

Point taken and please accept my apology. I did read it too fast. That was a sincere post from you, (i think) and I appreciate it.

Apology accepted, thanks. It was indeed a sincere post otherwise I wouldn't have said 'I don't know' several times regarding the question. :-)

Anonymous said...

graceupongrace

I have thought about many things since the Paul incident has come to light.

Whoever knew about this from day one, and I mean from Paul`s counselor to his best friend to Steve Gaines. did him a great injustice by not taking him to the following scriptures and counsel him to step down from his ministerial position.

I know he already knew these scriptures and this is how I see this.

God gave Paul the opportunity to step down.

God sent others into his life who could have pointed ghim to the scriptures and counsel him to do the right thing.

Since none of the above was done, God allowed it to go public.

Now, Paul can still step down but he hasn`t.

His ministerial circle can still try to persuade him to do the right thing, but they haven`t.

Timothy 3:1 This [is] a true saying, If a man desire the office of a bishop, he desireth a good work.

I Timothy 3:2 A bishop then must be blameless, the husband of one wife, vigilant, sober, of good behaviour, given to hospitality, apt to teach;

I Timothy 3:3 Not given to wine, no striker, not greedy of filthy lucre; but patient, not a brawler, not covetous;

I Timothy 3:4 One that ruleth well his own house, having his children in subjection with all gravity;

I Timothy 3:5 (For if a man know not how to rule his own house, how shall he take care of the church of God?)

I Timothy 3:6 Not a novice, lest being lifted up with pride he fall into the condemnation of the devil.

I Timothy 3:7 Moreover he must have a good report of them which are without; lest he fall into reproach and the snare of the devil.

I Timothy 3:8 Likewise [must] the deacons [be] grave, not doubletongued, not given to much wine, not greedy of filthy lucre;

I Timothy 3:9 Holding the mystery of the faith in a pure conscience.

I Timothy 3:10 And let these also first be proved; then let them use the office of a deacon, being [found] blameless.

I Timothy 3:11 Even so [must their] wives [be] grave, not slanderers, sober, faithful in all things.

I Timothy 3:12 Let the deacons be the husbands of one wife, ruling their children and their own houses well.

I Timothy 3:13 For they that have used the office of a deacon well purchase to themselves a good degree, and great boldness in the faith which is in Christ Jesus.

westtnbarrister said...

Sickandtired,

To your first question absolutely not. How can you know it was isolated? You can never know that. I have some limited experience in this area as a lawyer. I learned all I need to know about pedophiles. Few are cured, if any.

How would you know it is God's will? I would need a burning bush or a set of heaven-carved stone tablets to guide me. To allow a child molester in ministry violates the qualifications He set out for ministry. Whenever a man starts to believe the Lord is leading him in a direction that runs contrary to Scripture, he needs to be scared because it isn't the Lord leading him. God revealed Himself in His book. We can know what He expects of those in ministry by reading His clear unambiguous Word.

Would you allow a divorced man to remain on staff?

Anonymous said...

Thanks Trucker for the encouragement on the list.

New BBC Open Forum said...

ace wrote:

"'Word on the street is that the victim in question had been trying to meet with him for some period of time, and wasn't succesful until after there was already discussion creeping out on this blog.'

"Are you talking about Sharpe here? If so, he keeped asking for a meeting + he finally got his chance to have one. So what's the problem?"


No, ace. FG wasn't talking about Mark Sharpe. He was talking about PW's son. This particular issue has nothing to do with Mark Sharpe. Last I heard, Mark was still waiting for his meeting with Steve Gaines.

Finance Guy said...

ace
Planning to murder someone leads a person to jail too...doesn't it?

True, but not near as much as doing it. The point was that you are incorrect that there's no difference in the two.

Anonymous said...

truthhound,

I have said on several occasions now that I think Paul should have been dismissed months ago, so I'm not really seeing the issue here.

What I am saying is that I hope we aren't so critical of Dr. Gaines that we reject everything from his apologies down to even the motives of his sermons. Don't we owe Dr. Gaines a fair treatment?

Now I have work in the morning as do many of you so I must bid farewell for the night. But I do hope that we all continue to keep Dr. Gaines and Bellevue in prayer and that we seek to reconcile as quickly as possible and not to hold on to grudges.

Anonymous said...

NHisName said...
SickAndTired

Do you not know that in a SBC church if man who has never been before marries a woman who has been divorced is NOT qualified even to be a deacon much less a minister?

How can a man be a deacon and chairman of the board member and be married and sleep with other women?

Again there is a different standard for the inner circle.

Bruce can sleep with whomever he wishes.

David C. can buy booze for others.

Paul W. can sodimize and rape

Is this the spotless bride that Jesus is coming for?

Anonymous said...

FinaceGuy,

True, but not near as much as doing it. The point was that you are incorrect that there's no difference in the two.

I believe I said that there wasn't much of a difference. I believe there is a difference in that difference.

And, yes, that sentence was meant to confuse you. Basically I never said that there wasn't a difference at all, but not much of one because with your murder example, both still lead to jailtime...

Anonymous said...

I have a dream...

That a time will come at Bellevue when sin will be treated as sin...

That a time will come at Bellevue when the pastor will have time to answer questions from the congregation in a real business meeting instead of having self-serving informational meetings...

That a time will come at Bellevue when the pastor will be accountable to the congregation...

That a time will come at Bellevue when there will be a new set of bylaws that will provide checks and balances on the power of the pastor's office, will treat the office of deacon scripturally, and will address the concerns of power plays among members of the laity...

That a time will come at Bellevue when ministers who serve the church will be dealt with scripturally when they sin in a disqualifying way...

That a time will come at Bellevue when ministers who serve the church well for years will be able to speak freely from the heart with joy about their years at Bellevue without having to sign non-disclosure statements...

That a time will come at Bellevue when many of the discerning christians who have left will return to help with Bellevue's restoration...

That a time will come at Bellevue when the elderly among the membership will be able to sing the hymns that they know and love and not be made to feel as though their church has disappeared over night...

That a time will come at Bellevue when the standing ovations for performances will cease and a chorus of "amens" will ring out in worship directed to God alone...

That a time will come at Bellevue when the giving of staff and membership will be an undistracted act of worship without any concern that the pastor will be making a list and checking it twice...

That a time will come at Bellevue when "We are one in the bond of love..." will be sung from the heart by all present with beaming faces...

That a time will come at Bellevue when the heaviness of this day will be lifted and this time of contention will be a distant memory...

Anonymous said...

graceupongrace said...

I was just sharing my thoughts with you because I agreed with some of the things you posted.

Anonymous said...

Bruce can sleep with whomever he wishes.

David C. can buy booze for others.

Paul W. can sodimize and rape

Is this the spotless bride that Jesus is coming for?


Actually it is, and praise the Lord for it.

The spotless bride does not refer to sinlessness. It refers to the fact the sins of the bride have been washed clean by the blood of Christ.

Finance Guy said...

Grace
What I am saying is that I hope we aren't so critical of Dr. Gaines that we reject everything from his apologies down to even the motives of his sermons. Don't we owe Dr. Gaines a fair treatment?

Mrs FG and I were discussing this, and it's true. The Pastor cannot even comb his hair without being second guessed. While I have sympathy for him, it's tempered by the problem that he has brought this on himself by his own actions (or inactions as the case may be). This could have been all over in time for school to start last fall, but instead, he executed the "isolate the resistors" play, instead of the "deal with the problem" play. This didn't work out as well as it was thought it would, and iit only went to arouse the suspicions of a whole bunch of other people. Now, Rick Warren is hiding behind every fiscus tree at Bellevue. Steve Gaines has only himself to blame for his problems. The "troublemaking" deacons are known to the congregation to be Godly men. They weren't out to just attack the Pastor. Dr. Rogers had primed us to love and accept the new pastor.

This mess did not have to happen just because we had a pastor transition.

Anonymous said...

FinanceGuy,

here is the complete list of Ace's whit wisdom and knowledge that he has graced us with over the weeks and well into the future

I'll check on it,I have to search the facts.you are pathetic,you are mean, you are hateful, don't put words in my mouth.I didn't say that, I don't have the facts yet,you are hateful,you don't know .blogmaster they are picking on me,you quoting me out of context. quoting me out of context,God annointed him,God Annointed him,God annointed him,God Annointed him,God annointed him,God Annointed him,God annointed him,God Annointed him,God annointed him,God Annointed him,God annointed him,God Annointed him,
Here isthe total depth of the rapier whitt of Acey, you need not try hsrd to find a little of it in every post.

Anonymous said...

25+

Were you in my dream last night????

We have the same dream!

westtnbarrister said...

An comment someone made on the WMC Channel 5 website:

"Baptist are interesting ,you can't gamble,drink booze,smoke pot or cigs,but you can molest little boys and be a minister in the largest church in Memphis."

Anonymous said...

25+yrs@BBC-
Bravo, my brother. Thank you for you 12:10am post. I share this same dream. By the grace of God, some day in the future, He will restore integrity, accountability, trust, and dignity to our pulpit and our leadership.

dewaynehartsoe said...

25+yrs@BBC

I wholeheartedly agree with you. We should all be dreaming of the same thing.

Bellevue Friend said...

Friends,

My heart is very heavy as I watch with you the multiple events unfolding at Bellevue.

Who is to blame? I believe behind the hurt and anger and pain is the enemy of our souls! The Father of all lies! Sin unconfessed unrestrained...unaddressed....can and has infested God's Church!

All have sinned and come short of the Glory of God...all of us! Sin while shared by all humanity, can only be dealt with by divinity...the Saving Grace of the Lord Jesus Christ!

Sin even when forgiven, causes scars....and ministers who sin grieviously, often cannot be restored to a postion previously held, because integrity, once lost....is very difficult to regain.
Can it happen? The Bible is filled with stories of refitted renegades and rebels....believers are all trophies of Gods grace!

That said once...credibility is lost among God's people...leadership has then forfited the ability to lead objectivly!

I have been a Senior Pastor for nearly 20 years, I believe that Bellevue has now reached a point where leadership has limited to no integrity left.

Senior leadership, from the Pastor to compromising deacons.... for the sake of our Lord Jesus Christ, and the legacy of Bellevue, and in order to begin to retain credibility in the eyes of a sceptical world.... must resign....then dear members of Bellevue...call an Intentional Interum like Dr. Jimmy Draper, let him walk with you for a couple of years...and let God bring healing back to Bellevue.

Praying for you!

Bellevue Friend

allofgrace said...

WTB,
And they say this blog sends the wrong message...go figure.

Anonymous said...

It is common knowledge that
Dr. Rogers was aware of Steve Gaines deception.

He met with Jim Whitmire one week before he was hospitalized and told him that "We have been decieved".

I was told this by a Whitmire family member and I have no reason to doubt it at all.

Finance Guy said...

ace
We'll start with the "Wednesday night preacher" outright lie

Wasn't this resolved a long time ago? Gaines was saying that he uses Wednesday nights for meetings + other church related stuff so that he can free up his other nights to spend with his family.


You are correct, it was resolved when Jim Haywood published the truth the next day. The truth that the pastor in fact does preach on Wednesdays....and Mondays...and Tuesdays...but at other churches.

We now know that he preaches at the contemporary Service on Thursday nights that he also mislead the congregation about, by saying he didn't believe in a "Contemporary service".
So at best, he omitted some important details at the 9/24 meeting when he "resolved" this.

As far as the Whitmires, it's common knowlege that they don't agree that there has been reconciliation as represented to the church by the Pastor. Certainly the meeting on the day of Dr. Rogers funeral was misrepresented.

Also, he led the congregation to believe on 9/24 he had apolgised to Mark Sharpe, when infact it was still some time before he actually spoke with MS directly on the subject. And that only after the outcry on this blog and the other site.

Do I really need to continue?

Finance Guy said...

truthhound,
this has been verified, but let's be careful about dragging the Whitmires into this. They've suffered enough at the hands of this pastor.

Anonymous said...

Astounded said...
Bruce can sleep with whomever he wishes.

David C. can buy booze for others.

Paul W. can sodimize and rape

Is this the spotless bride that Jesus is coming for?

Actually it is, and praise the Lord for it.

The spotless bride does not refer to sinlessness. It refers to the fact the sins of the bride have been washed clean by the blood of Christ.


OK, so we don`t have to repent.

I have never heard this before.

If you are correct, I have wasted a lot of time down on my knees repenting, and a lot more time and energy trying to teach my children that sin must be confessed and repented of.

westtnbarrister said...

Allofgrace,

When the Bellevue turmoil became public in August, my wife looked at me and said, "Now the world will have confirmation we are what they always thought we were." With the news Bellevue has allowed a known pedophile to remain on staff for six months, I believe we've even surprised the world.

If the church had so little disregard for the biblical standards, wouldn't you think they would at least been concerned with the practical implications of their decision. They were willing to bet their careers and our church on an admitted pedophile's word that he has not molested in 17 years and that he would not molest again.

In the past BBC was vehemently opposed to gambling.

Anonymous said...

Astounded said...
Bruce can sleep with whomever he wishes.

David C. can buy booze for others.

Paul W. can sodimize and rape

Is this the spotless bride that Jesus is coming for?

Actually it is, and praise the Lord for it.

The spotless bride does not refer to sinlessness. It refers to the fact the sins of the bride have been washed clean by the blood of Christ.

12:12 AM, December 19, 2006


Actually Astounded I'm astounded that your role models and admire as leaders ,adulterers and child rapist,you actually are thankful to have these type of men as spiritial leaders and role models for your children?? Well if your daughter comes home pregant one day or is raped at church don't get upset you are happy to serve under such men

Finance Guy said...

trucker,
There is no way astounded is a parent....or at least one with the concern of how the examples of the leadership affects the spiritual health of their famile...and thinks the way they do.

Anonymous said...

FinanceGuy,

You are correct, it was resolved when Jim Haywood published the truth the next day. The truth that the pastor in fact does preach on Wednesdays....and Mondays...and Tuesdays...but at other churches.

But he doesn't preach every single Wednesday...and neither did any of Bellevue's previous pastors.

We now know that he preaches at the contemporary Service on Thursday nights that he also mislead the congregation about, by saying he didn't believe in a "Contemporary service".

It's not referred to as a contemporary service. Have you ever attented i2? They sing hymns + other nice songs ("Center", "Turn Your Eyes," etc.)

So at best, he omitted some important details at the 9/24 meeting when he "resolved" this.

FYI: Gaines also preached every Thursday a.m. at the Morning Manna breakfast thing for men. Is that another "half truth" since he didn't mention that?

As far as the Whitmires, it's common knowlege that they don't agree that there has been reconciliation as represented to the church by the Pastor.

Since the apology from Gaines this has been common knowledge?

Also, he led the congregation to believe on 9/24 he had apolgised to Mark Sharpe, when infact it was still some time before he actually spoke with MS directly on the subject. And that only after the outcry on this blog and the other site.

Gaines actually apologized to Sharpe on that evening too. Go listen to the recording and you'll hear that it admitted he made a mistake.

Do I really need to continue?

Feel free to continue if you'd like to...

Anonymous said...

Folks,

There has got to be more to this story.

I could not imagine, a sin so vile concerning pw, that a pastor would for one second allow that minister to remain on staff, once discovered.

SG is not that naive, when pw told him about this sin, to honestly believe there could be any merit that what happened 17 years ago has been dealt with. Just the thought to say it is taken care of in counseling, and leave it at that, is complete total negligence on protecting the honor of the bride of Christ.

Absolutely inexcusable! If I had a staff person tell me about this heinous crime, after I finished throwing up, I would have him tell the congregation himself, immediately! Then have the police waiting to deal with him, I don’t care how much time passed for the following reasons:

I can not even remotely imagine the raping of a boy, by his own father!!!!!! What kind of man can do that and still continue to be a minister, much less carry on any normalcy of life? Connect the dots. What kind of man can commit this crime and listen to the preaching of Adrian Rogers, for 15 years, and not have his heart pierced! Judas betrayed Christ and was so grief stricken he hung himself.

This man continued as a minister of the gospel of Jesus Christ, employed by the bride of Christ. Imagine when Dr. Rogers quoted Matthew 18:6, Mark 9:42 or Luke 17:2, concerning children and a millstone, how could PW even remotely continue to serve as a minister without being a sinister.

Dr. Rogers told us pastors at a preaching conference one time that a person in the congregation will leave church every Sunday mad, glad or sad. How did PW leave church every Sunday? If he was truly a Christian, he would have been sad, sad, sad.

How many years of being sad can a person last before their committed for maniac depression? To continue and interview people for volunteer positions to work in the children’s department with a smile on his face, no way. Dr. Rogers could sum up a person pretty quick, PW continued to live a life with no discernable grief.

SG has dismissed other staff for difference of opinion, and no crimes were committed. SG is not the preacher I thought he was. Unless there is more to the story…

How in the world can a monster like this remain on staff for six months after “coming clean!” And the pastor took the monsters word that it was dealt with. I am writing this, as a lesson to myself and other pastors that read this blog, that might have similar monsters in their midst.

By the way, remember a few weeks ago I wrote if I told a lie, I would immediately call for a vote of confidence? Last week, I was accused of telling a lie by two leaders in my church, one being on my staff. We held a business meeting for the entire church, I allowed the parties to share their accusations and any and all member to ask me questions about anything they desired.

At the start of the meeting I prayed that God would reveal through their speech if they had wrong motives. I had documented proof their story was not correct; their own words showed they had ulterior motives. I called immediately for a vote of confidence, which I won by 98%.

Didn’t Dr. Rogers say the secret of a godly ministry is integrity. If I were SG I would call a church conference and have a confidence vote. If the vote allows him to remain as pastor, then he can take this ministry to the next level. It was a tremendous cleansing in my church!

By the way, I believe I had to endure that test due to the unkind things I said on this blog earlier. Take my example and beware.

allofgrace said...

WTB,
I'm trying to find where the plumb line is anymore...it seems to have gone missing..oh wait...it's still there..BBC has just moved so far off plumb we can't see it anymore. Sad day.

Finance Guy said...

Ace
It's not referred to as a contemporary service. Have you ever attented i2? They sing hymns + other nice songs ("Center", "Turn Your Eyes," etc.)

So a duck is not a duck as long as you call it a chicken?

Anonymous said...

WTB

My aunt who lives in another city, flew into Memphis and got baptized at Bellevue on her way to the casinos.

Is Bellevue still opposed to gambling?

Finance Guy said...

pastor,
There is no doubt in my mind that there is more to this story, and that in time, all the truth will come out, and there will be another "half truth" and deceptions to add to my previous list to Ace.

"Be sure your sin will find you out" and
"that which is done in secret will be shouted from the rooftops"

Anonymous said...

westtnbarrister said...
An comment someone made on the WMC Channel 5 website:

"Baptist are interesting ,you can't gamble,drink booze,smoke pot or cigs,but you can molest little boys and be a minister in the largest church in Memphis."

12:15 AM, December 19, 2006

WTB this is what Steve Gaines has shown the world about our church,that is the perception SG and the defenders of SG on this blog have told the world about the practices of BBC.
Unfortantly that perception is true, these are the beliefs of our leadership remember what one posrer here on this blog compaired sodomizing your son as a "mistake" I guess we do look like hypocrites

Anonymous said...

Finance,

What consitutes you saying it was a contemporary service? Have you been to one of those meetings before? If so, please share your thoughts for us to see. Just curious...

Anonymous said...

I'm going to bed. G'night everyone.

Finance Guy said...

Ace,
You are right. It's less of a "contemporary service" and more of a rock concert, complete with smoke and flashing lights. With a much different "tone" than those in the main auditorium during the SCT before you throw that one at me.

In any event, the origional point is that the Pastor finds time to preach everywhere but to his congregation on Wed night (the only service not on TV or radio I might add). I really don't care if he does or not personally. I care a great deal that he wasn't honest about it when questioned.

Anonymous said...

Pastor,

I appreciate your post and humble manner.

If we had a vote of confidence on PW he would still be in his office so
I don`t believe a majority vote is the answer.

Anonymous said...

TruthHound said...
Astounded said...
Bruce can sleep with whomever he wishes.

David C. can buy booze for others.

Paul W. can sodimize and rape

Is this the spotless bride that Jesus is coming for?

Actually it is, and praise the Lord for it.

The spotless bride does not refer to sinlessness. It refers to the fact the sins of the bride have been washed clean by the blood of Christ.


OK, so we don`t have to repent.

I have never heard this before.

If you are correct, I have wasted a lot of time down on my knees repenting, and a lot more time and energy trying to teach my children that sin must be confessed and repented of.


My apologies. I was speaking from strictly a Baptist view of salvation. My belief is that, Jesus has saved me from all my sins, past present and future.

I did not intend to impune your belief system. I do realize that there may be some who hold the Cambellite view that they must continually repent for sins they commit to renew their salvation.

It reminds me of the statements my best friend (a Church of Christ attendee) in high school made to me. "If I were Baptist, I would sin as much as I want to". Thanks to Dr. Rogers, I knew exactly how to answer that question....

I do sin all I want to. Actually a I sin MUCH more than I want to. I constantly strive for sinlessness. I just know that those future sins are already forgiven which makes me even more shamed when I do sin. Thats where repentence comes in.

westtnbarrister said...

truthhound,

"Are we opposed to gambling?" I no longer know where we stand on gambling or incestual sodomy.

Here are a few things we do oppose:

We oppose anyone who seeks accountability and openness. We oppose anyone who does not believe in a pastor as supreme ruler and authority. We oppose anyone who disregards "storehouse" tithing. We oppose fellow Southern Baptists who are Calvinists. And, we oppose church discipline. Just to name a few.

Anonymous said...

Quotes from our Leadership:

That must be a mistake of my mind -- S Gaines
I don’t know -- H Smith, Chairman of the CC
Swallow and follow -- C Taylor
I don’t know -- H Smith, Chairman of the CC
I’d rather be flogged than blogged -- S Gaines
I don’t know -- H Smith, Chairman of the CC
Don’t cast stones. Maybe David Coombs was trying to reach out to his sister (by buying her wine at dinner) -- S Tucker
I don’t know -- H Smith, Chairman of the CC
Itty-bitty (43” high) fence -- S Gaines
I don’t know -- H Smith, Chairman of the CC
The principles of Matthew 18 do not apply to the Pastor -- C Taylor & S Tucker
I don’t know -- H Smith, Chairman of the CC
Moral Failure -- B Miller
I don’t know -- H Smith, Chairman of the CC
I apologize if you were offended -- S Gaines
I don’t know -- H Smith, Chairman of the CC
Everything is juuuuuust fine -- C Freeman
I don’t know -- H Smith, Chairman of the CC
There are just 2 or 3 trouble makers -- S Gaines
I don’t know -- H Smith, Chairman of the CC
I don’t know -- H Smith, Chairman of the CC
I don’t know -- H Smith, Chairman of the CC
I don’t know -- H Smith, Chairman of the CC
I don’t know -- H Smith, Chairman of the CC


My brain hurts. Good night everybody!

Anonymous said...

trucker said...

Actually Astounded I'm astounded that your role models and admire as leaders ,adulterers and child rapist,you actually are thankful to have these type of men as spiritial leaders and role models for your children?? Well if your daughter comes home pregant one day or is raped at church don't get upset you are happy to serve under such men

12:30 AM, December 19, 2006


I am beginneng to see what Ace means when he starts talking about words being put in his mouth.

Trucker,

I am in full agreement with you in this matter as my earlier posts attest to:


If Steve Gaines new about this for 6 months and did nothing, he harmed EVERYONE connected with BBC.


Personally I do not think that a rapist should ever again be a minister of any church.

Personally I don't think that anyone that would harbor a rapist should be a minister of any church.

I guess what I am saying, if I were the Czar of BBC I would immediately remove all staff that were involved in the cover-up of a rapist serving as a minister of BBC.

That being said.....

If God wants Paul Williams to serve as a minister of BBC, he WILL serve as a minister of BBC, just as Paul served Christ's early New Testiment Church.

While I may have my own finite opinions on who should serve on the staff of BBC, I also understand that God's will shall be done.


Now, where did you come up with the ridiculous idea that I admire rapists and wish for them to serve in my church?

I merely stated that God's Will will be done in this as all matters.

Anonymous said...

Joe Sumrow said...
Andrew and David,

I am not questioning Ms. Rogers integrity. Quit adding to my comment. Dr. Rogers could have been aware of things that she was not. That was and is my point.

---

Joe. What I said was...

You are wrong!

You need to back off defaming Mrs. Rogers and calling into question her ability to speak to this matter. If she says he didn't know - then Dr. Rogers did not know.

She is an exceptional woman in every way and you owe her more respect than that. Obviously you are either unwilling or unable able to use logic, reasonable assertions and have no idea the quality and integrity of the woman of whom you speak. Further you are not taking into account how Pastor Rogers demonstrated his convictions and scriptural standards as he dealt with serious matters in the past. You shame yourself!

Andrew

----

Joe,

Please note - I have added nothing to your statement. Please reread mine – I suggested that based on your comment you can't possible be aware of who the Rogers were individually or as a team.

Note that my objection was and is that you are 'calling into question her ability to speak to this matter.' I did not suggest you questioned her integrity. Sir I ask the same courtesy of you...do not add to my words.

But since we are here again, allow me to clarify your own words and what is behind them.

By your introduction of the logical absolute that Mrs. Rogers in fact did not and could not know everything that came across Dr. Rogers's path you are stating the obvious either with or without motive.

I don't believe for a minute you are one to simply state the obvious without point or intent. Thus you must have a point to make and motive for it.

I believe your motive and goal is clear: cast doubt as to whether Dr. Rogers actually knew of the problem and if he did how he allowed PW to remain on staff; and to further use that to justify the current administration's decisions.

If that is not your motive you are carelessly and oddly specific on an obvious logical absolute everyone already knows. And again, you do not present yourself as one who has nothing better to do than to waste time stating the unimportant obvious.


Good night,

Andew

Anonymous said...

It was definitely wrong for the guy to molest the child and I don't take that lightly but....I am more bothered by the person/persons that keeps putting all this on the website. The problem should have been handled within the Church. The molestation only effects those molested but the website is being used in such a way as to hinder the witness for the salvation of many.....a sin of huge proportions.
How can you claim in your Mission Statement to "Honor Jesus Christ" when you are airing all the Church's laundry for the world to see. Can't you see you are only putting a stumbling block for many who need to be saved? The Bible clearly says that this should be kept within the Church. This kind of broadcasting on the web is nothing but self promotion and the work of Satan. The consequences of which frighten me.
It's time for all to come together for the Glory of God and put our energies in praying for the Church instead of trying to tear it apart.

Anonymous said...

Information please!

Has anyone heard of the personnel committee before?

If so, who is on it?

To whom may I address letters concerning PW?

Thank you

Anonymous said...

I suppose that Haggard should never have been on the news either.

Or maybe the Bakers should have been permitted to continue their ministry?

Many things shouldn't happen. Yes, in this media, some things are not communicated. Emotional responses are not seen/heard.

Tears. Weeping. Grieving.

If our pastor had dealt with the sin in the camp, if the church was permitted to have business meetings and open discussions, if the truth had been sought/spoken by the leadership instead of being obscured, clouded, hidden... if only the leadership acted with integrity.. if only they hadn't harbored a pedophile for 6 MONTHS, allowing him to do business as usual, interviewing victims of sexual abuse, leading prayer walks knowing that his family had asked him to step down as a minister... If only our pastor had loved his own congregation enough to protect them and tenderly care for them as a Shepherd cares for His sheep

If only If only If only

If only our church leadership feared the Lord and sought to glorify Him alone

May the Lord have mercy on us for our corporate sin of allowing things to progress to this point, for our own prayerlessness and lack of discernment, for our lack of love

Anonymous said...

Seeking God's Glory said...
It was definitely wrong for the guy to molest the child and I don't take that lightly but....I am more bothered by the person/persons that keeps putting all this on the website. The problem should have been handled within the Church. The molestation only effects those molested but the website is being used in such a way as to hinder the witness for the salvation of many.....a sin of huge proportions.

Please correct me if I am wrong. The above quote says that people posting on this website are creating a sin of much larger proportion than a man who RAPED HIS OWN CHILD??? This website is more sinful than a minister who RAPED HIS OWN CHILD???

So God wants us to allow a minister to RAPE HIS OWN CHILD so long as we witness for the salvation of many.


You then stated:

How can you claim in your Mission Statement to "Honor Jesus Christ" when you are airing all the Church's laundry for the world to see. Can't you see you are only putting a stumbling block for many who need to be saved?

I think it is just a tad difficult to "Honor Jesus Christ" when you hide for 6 months the fact that a minister of the church RAPED HIS OWN CHILD!!!


This kind of broadcasting on the web is nothing but self promotion and the work of Satan.

I think the apex of the work of Satan is a minister of the church RAPING HIS OWN CHILD!!!

God and put our energies in praying for the Church instead of trying to tear it apart.

Fear not my friend. If a church knowingly covers up the fact that a minister has RAPED HIS OWN CHILD, God will clense the problem himself, even if that means tearing the church apart.

"Suffer the children to come unto me."

Believe me. Children are VERY important to God.

Bereans said...

Charis-

I wondered when we got a personnel committee too. How did Bryan Miller become the chairman of it AND the deacons?

Did the church vote on the personnel committee or has Steve recently appointed yet another committee?

What are the duties of the personnel committee? How long has this committee been in existence? Who are the members?

Someone, please let us know where the personnel committee came from.

Anonymous said...

Astounded said...


That being said.....

If God wants Paul Williams to serve as a minister of BBC, he WILL serve as a minister of BBC, just as Paul served Christ's early New Testiment Church.

While I may have my own finite opinions on who should serve on the staff of BBC, I also understand that God's will shall be done.

REPLY:

God has already shown us his will by scripture.

Paul Williams does not qualify to be a minister according to God`s word.

No one`s opinion matters.

God has spoken.

pinker socks said...

You wolves in sheeps clothing standing up for your chief wolf(Gaines) grieve my heart! I have been a member of Bellevue for over 20 years and I know that our beloved Shepard that is now in heaven would never have known about this and let PW stay on staff. Dr. Rogers loved his flock, he loved the children of Bellevue, but most of all he loved his LORD and would never have done anything to disgrace HIM! You pack of wolves take your top wolf and leave! I have a history at Bellevue and I'm and I know many others are not handing it over to the likes of you!

And to ther person that feels sorry for Paul Williams picture being on TV, do you feel sorry for his son and the pain and anguish that he will never escape from. Who are you? Paul Williams made a choice to do that, he could have turned from tempation, but he didn't he raped his son. Do you hear what I said HE RAPED HIS SON!! I'M LIVID! You people have a lot to answer for defending him!

Anonymous said...

Seeking God's Glory said...

....I am more bothered by the person/persons that keeps putting all this on the website.

REPLY:

The Bible made every Bible character from Adam and Eve to the thief who hung nect to Jesus public. Does that bother you?


The problem should have been handled within the Church.

REPLY:
YOU are so very right about this. Unfortunately Bellevue has fallen into the hands of men who sweep things under the rug instead of applying scriptural mandates and solutions.

The molestation only effects those molested

REPLY:

This is not a true statement at all. What Paul Williams did has effected countless people.



but the website is being used in such a way as to hinder the witness for the salvation of many

REPLY:

The Holy Spitit is the one who calls a person to salvation. Please don`t try to give credit to anyone else.


.....a sin of huge proportions.



How can you claim in your Mission Statement to "Honor Jesus Christ" when you are airing all the Church's laundry for the world to see. Can't you see you are only putting a stumbling block for many who need to be saved? The Bible clearly says that this should be kept within the Church. This kind of broadcasting on the web is nothing but self promotion and the work of Satan.

REPLY:

Is satan for lies?

Is he for half truths?

Is he for harboring a rapist?

Is he for having ministers who rape, sodomize, and so on.

is he for having adultering ministers

Do these thigns bring glory to satan?

All answers being yes to all, I would say say Steve Gaines and many of the Bellevue staff are promoting saran.


The consequences of which frighten me.


REPLY:

There is no fear in TRUTH but I would be very afraid to support anything less than truth. The consequences of not following scriptures is just what is going on right now. If the leaders of our church would have followed scripture, we wouldn`t be talking about this today.


It's time for all to come together for the Glory of God and put our energies in praying for the Church instead of trying to tear it apart.


REPLY:

I agree that we need to pray but we also need to get up off our knees and be the light and salt of this earth.

Those who promote satan are not the light or the salt.

We careful that you know the truth about everything you speak.

Don`t just listen to what people are saying, go out and find the truth. This is what most of us on this blog have done.

Churchmouse said...

Bereans said:
"Someone, please let us know where the personnel committee came from. "

5:42 AM, December 19, 2006

Reply:

Remember Steve said after the sermon Sunday morning that there would be a committee appointed to
write some policy to deal with matters such as these?

Behind the scenes Gaines, Smith, Taylor, Tucker, Miller, and Coombs discussed what new name they would call themselves, and who they would invite to the group to enhance their image.

Oh, that sounds so cynical!

Anonymous said...

Churchmouse


The Personnel committee is just a "Shoot from the Hip" committee seemingly developed out of thin air to bring yet another illusion before the congregation that would make SG and company look better.

Now the Personnel Committee is calling for people to come forward with EVIDENCE so they can proceed with their INVESTIGATION about the matter.

I want to know who the script writer is for this dog and pony show?

Anonymous said...

Steve Gaines here is my Christmas wish list.

A resignation from you.

A resignation from Bruce Brooke.

A resignation from Paul Willuams.

A resignation from Harry Smith.

A resignation from Chuck Taylor.

A resingation from Chip Freeman.

A resignation from Steve Tucker.

A resignation from David Coombs.

A resignation from Mark Daughtery.

A resignation from the Pastor Selection committee members.

A resignation from every deacon who can not stand up for truth and honor.

A resination from every person who hid Paul Williams dangerous sins from us.

In other words, we want Bellevue freed from the grips of men who dishonor Almighty God by trampling the scriptures under their feet instead of walking in them.

If possible, send my presetn early.

And by the way, I have more respect for Santa Clause than any of you.

Santa may be make believe but he has more integrity than our elder ruling ministers.

Churchmouse said...

25 + said,
"This blog needs to be a place that makes sense and a place of clarity while the moral compass of Bellevue's leadership spins out of control."

REPLY:
Thank you, 25+, for helping us stay focused. I am always encouraged by your posts. Your wisdom has been noted and appreciated. Please stay with us and continue doing what you are doing. We need you.

COMMENT:
Thank you Joyce Rogers for speaking out for truth. We never doubted your husband, not for a moment. We have needed to hear your words.
Thank you Bob Sorrell for speaking out for truth. Your words also are very comforting.

MY HEART:
"By the rivers of Babylon, there we sat down, yea, we wept, when we remembered Zion. We hung our harps upon the willows in the midst thereof." Psalms 137:1,2

Anonymous said...

Thanks churchmouse.

God is light and in Him is no darkness at all. Truth does not fear light. Calls were made before this matter really hit the blog to no avail. It seems that some folks don't care about reality... but they do care about perception...

It is sad that it took a forum like this to get people to act; but that has been the pattern. Mark Sharpe asked for a much more private forum. He asked to be heard by all of his brother deacons--to no avail.

Some reading this will think or say, "but those were small matters." Small matters have a connection to integrity. When small matters are swept under the rug the bump left in the rug becomes a stumbling block for many. Truth is not a small matter.

Had those "small matters" been dealt with then in June there would not have been a need for leadership to be in damage control mode.

Anonymous said...

This statistic underscores the reason that it was important for leadership to do the right thing from the moment they knew:

"The average number of victims for a pedophile who molests girls is 20; for pedophiles who prefer boys, more than 100, according to studies."

http://www.news-
journalonline.com/
special/
sexualoffenders/
frtHEAD02042506.htm

Anonymous said...

I found this on Focus on the Family's website.

"In my mind was the Lord’s command to love our enemies and to bless those who hurt us. As a Christian counselor I was also familiar with 1 Peter 3:9-10 that encourages us to not repay evil for evil but with blessing. How weird, it seemed, to bless an abuser. God’s word can sometimes go against our most basic instincts about justice, right and wrong.

Reconciliation, not retaliation, is the way God would have us deal with the bad things that happen to us. Reconciliation is indeed possible with Jesus who really does take away sins. I believe in Heaven we will not be able to see our sins or anybody else’s.

Finally, love is the seed and fruit of real healing. To love an enemy is impossible by simple human willpower, but through Christ, for Whom all things are possible, it can become a sweet fruit on the tree of our faith.

allofgrace said...

With all due respect to Dr. Dobson, he's a psychologist not a theologian...forgive yes...love our enemies, yes...deal with real issues realistically...yes.

dewaynehartsoe said...

BlessMeWithTheTruth said...
Steve Gaines here is my Christmas wish list.

A resignation from you.

A resignation from Bruce Brooke.

A resignation from Paul Willuams.

A resignation from Harry Smith.

A resignation from Chuck Taylor.

A resingation from Chip Freeman.

A resignation from Steve Tucker.

A resignation from David Coombs.

A resignation from Mark Daughtery.

A resignation from the Pastor Selection committee members.

A resignation from every deacon who can not stand up for truth and honor.

A resination from every person who hid Paul Williams dangerous sins from us.

In other words, we want Bellevue freed from the grips of men who dishonor Almighty God by trampling the scriptures under their feet instead of walking in them.

If possible, send my presetn early.

And by the way, I have more respect for Santa Clause than any of you.

Santa may be make believe but he has more integrity than our elder ruling ministers.

7:43 AM, December 19, 2006

A very good list. Clapping, whitlings, screaming..... you get the picture, but I would add a couple of other things.

Repentance from the staff who have had their heads in the sand and did not attempt to find out the truth.

Repentance from the members who have also had their heads in the sand and did not attempt to find out the truth.

Repentance from members and possibly staff who have stood behind SG because they knew that they have been harboring sin in their lives and what SG and the others were doing was making them feel better about themselves.

I know this is too much to ask Santa for, but My (OUR) God is sufficient and He can accomplish anything that we ask if we ask in Faith with clean hands and hearts.

Memphismom02 said...

We don't need a resignation from Paul Williams. He should have been FIRED long ago!!!

Tim said...

Folks,

Six months ago Steve Gaines had a meeting with this minister. He was told at that time of the problem that existed 17 years ago. The minister stated that he had confessed to his family and sought restoration. The minister stated that he had sought counseling from a retired Bellevue Staff member. He also stated that he had received counseling in more recent months in regard to this issue. Then within the past several weeks the pastor was approached and asked to meet with the son that was involved and discovered at the time the issue was not resolved.

Why would this minister have sought counseling in recent months if this had not been a more recent problem of some sort?

Why would Steve Gaines not have sought out six months ago additional information to confirm that there was not a current problem?

Why would Steve Gaines not have sought out the son six months ago to ask if he would like to comment on the situation of which he had been made aware?

Why would Steve Gaines consider a crime that was reported to him six months ago to be confidential?

Why would Steve Gaines six months ago have trusted the integrity of a man that committed such a crime?

Why did Steve Gaines wait an additional few weeks after he realized that the issue was not resolved to remove the man from his duties?

Why is it wrong for me to have questions for which there are no reasonable and logical explanations?

Why should I not question the integrity and leadership ability of Steve Gaines for displaying such an utter lack of Biblical morality and credibility in his actions?

It would appear that "moral failures" abound within our leadership.

Why should I be asked to accept every "moral failure" that becomes apparent with each passing week?

Why are these "moral failures" not seen to some of the members of Bellevue Baptist Church as damaging to the cause of Christ?

Why do some members of Bellevue Baptist Church believe that it more damaging to purge the church of the “moral failures” of sin than to allow sin to fester within the church?

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