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About Me
- New BBC Open Forum
- This forum was created to provide a place where those who are seriously concerned about the issues facing Bellevue Baptist Church and the SBC can come to comment and exchange ideas. Anonymous comments are welcome, but it is respectfully requested that instead of choosing the "Anonymous" option those who want to post comments without logging in select a unique screen name. This lets everyone tell the difference between one anon and another without revealing any personal information. Under the box where you compose your comment where it says "Choose an identity," just check "Name/URL" and type in the screen name of your choice. You can leave the URL field blank. It would be helpful if you'd use the same screen name for any subsequent comments. This makes reading and following discussions easier, helps avoid confusion, and doesn't result in one person being credited for writing something s/he didn't. Comments by posters whose only purpose is to disrupt (i.e. trolls) will be subject to deletion. Your cooperation will be appreciated.
106 comments:
Quotes from our Leadership:
> “That must be a mistake of my mind” -- S Gaines
> “I don’t know” -- H Smith, Chairman of the CC
> “Swallow and follow” -- C Taylor
> “I don’t know” -- H Smith, Chairman of the CC
> “I’d rather be flogged than blogged” -- S Gaines
> “I don’t know” -- H Smith, Chairman of the CC
> “Don’t cast stones. Maybe David Coombs was trying to reach out to his sister”(by buying her wine at dinner) -- S Tucker
> “I don’t know” -- H Smith, Chairman of the CC
> “Itty-bitty (43” high) fence” -- S Gaines
> “I don’t know” -- H Smith, Chairman of the CC
> “The principles of Matthew 18 do not apply to the Pastor” -- C Taylor & S Tucker
> “I don’t know” -- H Smith, Chairman of the CC
> “Moral Failure” -- B Miller
> “I don’t know” -- H Smith, Chairman of the CC
> “I apologize if you were offended” -- S Gaines
> “I don’t know” -- H Smith, Chairman of the CC
> “Everything is juuuuuust fine” -- C Freeman
> “I don’t know” -- H Smith, Chairman of the CC
> “There are just 2 or 3 trouble makers” -- S Gaines
> “I don’t know” -- H Smith, Chairman of the CC
> “…just helping another church (FUMC) in the community” (even though FUMC supports abortion, homosexuality, etc.) – H Smith
> “I don’t know” -- H Smith, Chairman of the CC
> “I don’t know” -- H Smith, Chairman of the CC
> “I don’t know” -- H Smith, Chairman of the CC
> “I don’t know” -- H Smith, Chairman of the CC
Requests from our Members:
Steve Gaines, Paul Williams, Mark Dougharty, David Coombs – please resign.
Steve Tucker, Harry Smith, Chuck Taylor, Bryan Miller, John Caldwell – please resign.
Interesting blog sight from Gardendale:
http://www.al.com/forums/gardendale/index.ssf
Here are a few comments about Steve Gaines from Gardendale, AL:
For one we allowed him to tkae over and gave him ultimate authority. That is not biblical. He treated godly men we loved like dirt and we did not stand up to him and hold him accountable. He changed our services to be seeker-sensitive. I applauded at the time. Now I see it as a violation of the Bible. We had no transparency and no openness. No one could challenge or question him, just like at Bellevue. He damanded absolute loyalty and conformity and he got it. We were stupdid to allow it. Some of us were deceived into believing it was the right thing because our attendance was up. He bragged about the baptisms and the giving. The Bible says God gives the increase, not the pastor and not any of the rest of us. I knew better and foolishly went along because on the surface it looked like we had success.
Those are just a few thoughts.
------------------------------
I am stunned Steve admitted he knew he had a child molester on staff for six months. He fires people for anything but not this? Something is not right about this story. Was this molester blackmailing Steve? It has to be something like that or he would never keep him on staff. Either that or he has become a lot more toleraant since he moved to Memphis.
------------------------------
The matters in Memphis should be of great concern to all who are of faith. Especially those of GFBC. Because of the events in Memphis, GFBC will also be dragged into the spotlight. The events have been put out on a public forum for ALL to see. As a member of GFBC I think I would want to know what is going on so that when someoone asks how I can defend the actions of other Christians then I'll know how to respond. To bury my head in the sand and say "it doesn't concern me" would be to say "I don't care".
There are those who don't believe and will use these events to further their cause. BBC is a mega church in the SBC, just as GFBC is. Both have an impact on the shape of the SBC.
Would you pray for them? Not if you're not concerned. Not if it's none of you're business.
------------------------------
Bellevue has been the most important church in the Southern Baptist Convention for 60 years since the days of R.G. Lee. Steve himself told me Bellevue is the "cornerstone church" for Southern Baptists. I believe what happens at Bellevue should concern all Southern Baptists everywhere.
------------------------------
I've been following the situation in Memphis and have learned a lot about church doctrine, Matthew 18, transparency in church leadership, church bylaws, Warrenism and other various items.
I stated earlier, "a smart man learns from his mistakes, but a wise man learns from the mistakes of others."
----------------------------
to catch on to Gaines. The people in Memphis were led by Adrian Rogers and most of them were paying attention to his leadership. The more I read the more convicted I am that GFBC has made serious mistakes.
I received this kind, thoughtful letter today with the request it be forwarded to as many people as possible, so here it is:
From sendthelight50@aol.com:
"Facts are that I am one of many voices who are crying out for Jim Haywood, Mark Sharp (sic), Mattock (sic), etc., to immediately resign their new job of speaking for all of Bellevue. We have a voice and we are becoming righteously angered enough to publically (sic) denouce (sic) them as one of our members. What you and this web site is doing is as bad as or worse than what Bro. Paul did to his son and do you think that you will be spared. He thought he was for 17 years and then it came and so will yours. My prayer is for our Pastor Steve (our Joshua) to stand firm against the forces of evil and that God will use this evil plot to purify him and make him stand tall like Joshua and led us through with him. We do not hate those who are pursing (sic) evil but let it be known IT IS TIME FOR YOU TO GET YOUR HEARTS RIGHT WITH GOD OR BE THROWN OUT. I am sending this message to our Pastor and all church leaders it is time to vote some people out of our midst; they have made their choice and as for me and countless others we have made ours also we choose to go forward with our beloved Pastor.
"You may contact me and I also ask that you forward this to as many people as possible. It is time for us to rally behind the man that God has placed over us! Let us do it with Peace knowing that He will pave the way for us. It is time to March to Zion under the Banner of Grace!"
NBBCOF
sendthelight50@aol.com,
E-Mail Sent.
Simple. Just call a business meeting. Ask all of us that oppose the man that has allowed a pedofile to remain on staff to stand. Call a vote and boot us out. I dare you to do it. I sincerely dare you to call a business meeting and call it to a vote. You will be surprised at how lonely you have become in your self-righteous arrogance.
p.s.
I am not certain that you are marching to Zion. You might need to turn around and get headed in the right direction. You are supporting a man that has supported what God calls an abomination.
Tim,
I particularly "appreciated" the part where our actions here were said to be "as bad or worse" than what PW confessed to doing to his son. I wonder, if given a choice, whether that little boy would have preferred to be behind closed doors with his father back then or with one of us. I think that would be a no brainer, wouldn't you?
I might add the person who sent me that is a BFC teacher!
NASS
I am sending this message to our Pastor and all church leaders it is time to vote some people out of our midst;
That's a deal. Call a business meeting and let's have a vote
NASS,
It is quite incredible that the person who sent that letter has an email address with "sendthelight" in it.
If they truly wanted light, then they would 1) appreciate the light that has been shed on this dark matter covered up by Bellevue's pastor for six months with no investigation, etc. and 2) ask for their leadership to be transparent.
The Lord is sending out his light and truth. What was spoken in secret has begun to be shouted from the rooftops...
Sure, it has made some angry. This has been one more symptom of a continuing problem with SG. He plays the role of a victim.
Now if some more real victims of PW come forward, then I suspect any outcry against SavingBellevue will begin to quiet down.
Yet people like "sendthelight" have their hands over their eyes, ears, and mouths. I suspect that they wouldn't if their child had been a victim.
When Mt. 18 is not an option for a deacon and intimidation and stonewalling are the rule of the day; when Communications Committees don't take notes, answer questions, but pat themselves on the back; and when a pastor allows a confessed pedophile to be anywhere on the campus for six months disclosing the matter only when this blog made it public.... in such a day... people like "sendthelight" have been in the dark so long they don't know who to thank when light is sent.
Some of us knew this for a week or so before Gaines dealt with it and could not sleep. Gaines knew for months... What can I say?
This has come to light by the grace of God--hopefully before there were any more victims. jmo.
What has happpened to cause the majority of folks to abandoned their mind and clear thinking and the mind of Christ? Send the light, your missive was all built on emotions and feelings. Truth and what the Lord requires of us is to renew our minds and to have the mind of Christ. The anger of men, we are told, does not do the work of the Lord. The ememy works in the area of feelings and emotions.
The Lord warns us as to how decitful our hearts can be, and emotions and feelings come from the heart.
Your voice is crying out for Haywood and Sharp etc to resign. Why? Because you don't like what was brought out from the dzarkness into the light? Why are you not calling for PW resignition? Or SG resignation? You lash out at the messenger of truth and defend the perpatrators of darkness.
How is it possible you believe the bloggers are worse than a pedifile? That is beyond reason and is an emotional outbreak.
You defend PW and say nothing at all of his victem. You defend man and look to man and not to God who makes it clear what is REQUIRED of someone who seeks to be a leader.
You need to turn to God and not trust and follow a man for what is right and what is wrong. Don't trust your heart and emotions but turn to the Word of God.
You will not be marching to Zion with sg under a banner of grace with unconfessed sin, deception, pride and a Diotraphes attitude.
All of this has come about for one reason: the resusal of bbc leadership to deal with sin in the camp when it was first found out. The refusal to deal with dishonesty in leadership and forgetting that GOD requires HIS leaders to be humble, not prideful and arrogant. God says HE hates pride! But, He deals with the humble. Humility is missing from the leadership at BBC
Expect a quote by a local prominent Southern Baptist leader (known to all readers here) in the Commerical Appeal tomorrow. He states that SG should resign if he knew for six months that PW was a pedophile.
Wow...what a mess! My wife and I were members at BBC for 10 years 1987-1997 until we moved to Birmingham. God graced us with children while we were at BBC (2) a boy and girl. To think that PW was molesting and raping his own son during that time frame makes me shudder. I would be OUTRAGED and LIVID if I was a current member of BBC that the pastor allowed an ADMITTED Pedophile to remain in a position of leadership is simply DEPLORABLE. As Dr. Rogers always said.."We love the sinner but hate the sin"..Steve Gaines should be held accountable as a shepherd to his flock that he allowed a wolf in the midst..KNOWINGLY.
I realize that my opinions do not really matter to those of you at BBC. I am just so saddened by this event. I have read some of the other allegations and responses on the Saving Bellevue web site. I think full disclosure is best and the leadership of the church should stand before the congregation and answer questions all night if need be to clear the air. I am not sure why there is such an aversion to this by Steve Gaines and staff.
What does Mrs. Rogers have to say about all this? What does Jim Whitmire say?
What is Steve Tucker's contention? (we were in his SS class while at BBC)
What does Sonny Tucker have to say? (is he still alive?)
What does Bob Sorrell say? What does Scotty Shows say?
Just curious.
We will pray for you and the situation!
Bart Clayton
SendTheLight50@aol.com wrote:
you may be surprized how alone I'll stand but you will also be equally surprized how strong I'll stand against you
Reply:
As long as I stand with God, I am not concerned with where you stand. That is not something that I am in control of. I am also not concerned with how strong you may stand, God is big enough to handle it and will. Go gather up some support if possible and take your stand. I have already taken mine. Please call a business meeting a bring it to a vote.
sendthelight,
You remind me of a cockroach running around in the dark when the light comes on. He runs to darkness to hide before someone gets him. While in the dark, he can run around and have fun getting things dirty and multiplying. When the light comes on, it hurts his eyes and he's exposed for who he is to he runs back to darkness.
My question to you is, "Have you ever been a pedofile? You don't seem to have that much problem with Pedophilia.
I will count it a joy for you or anyone else to vote me and my family out of Belleuve Baptist Church. Let us know Sunday morning when the next business meeting is and let's roll.
Hello,
i just wanted to put my feelings out there for everyone. i am NOT a member @ Bellevue, but i have attended for a very long time w/ my family. in lieu of joining the church due to my love for the way Bro. Steve touches my heart as he preaches God's Word..... i thought i would sit back and see how this all turns out. i would first like to state that i think this whole web-site and the originators should be ashamed of themselves. i did in fact read the "Mission Statement" and really find it hard to believe that you people followed the Principles of Matthew 18. this web-site reminds me of the democratic party and their hatred for OUR President. i personally feel that Bro. Steve IS indeed the pastor of BBC and he is NOT Bro. Adrian Rogers! If you people that call yourselves Christians would take a moment to realize that the Church sitting on Appling Rd is GODS church and if there is anything that Bro. Steve is doing wrong he will be judged by our Father in heaven. it disgusts me that you want to take a man who has devoted his life to God and serving God and try to get his focus cought up in some conspiracy theory as he tries to spread Gods word. i think that you should end this rigmarole and let Bro. Steve do the work that God has sent him there to do. i will also say that Bro. Steve could NOT have said it better when he said (If you dont like it.... go somewhere else)..... you people that say that you have been there forever, gave this, did this, went w/out this and that!!! Dr. Adrian Rogers cleansed the feet of Bro. Steve and anoited the feet of the man we are so lucky to have leading us.... i can also assure you Bro. Steve has NO secret agenda, so lets all Praise our God and rejoice as we bring those lost to the blood of the lamb..... so that they will have eternal life and rejoice in Heaven one day!!
(Reposted from the other thread in hopes that Joe Sumrow and others of like mind will be more likely to see it...)
SeekingGod'sGlory said,
I am more bothered by the person/persons that keeps putting all this on the website. The problem should have been handled within the Church.
I doubt there is a person here who would disagree with your second statement above. We would have strongly preferred that ALL of these issues, from day one, would have been handled within the church. If you cannot see what is plainly before you — the fact that THEY HAVE NOT BEEN HANDLED WITHIN THE CHURCH, and this because THE ADMINISTRATION REFUSES TO DO SO — then I am not sure anything any of us says is going to help.
Gaines was told of the PW situation in JUNE. SIX MONTHS AGO. Others on staff and in leadership at the church were told WEEKS AGO, if not before. Was it handled? No. Paul Williams remained on staff until THIS BLOG, and those who are willing to stand up and confront an extraordinary lack of integrity in our leadership, made it an issue which finally had to be handled. And as a result of it being mishandled by the administration from the start, it's now the talk of the nation.
Hear me, and please hear me clearly: If ALL of these issues, from day one, had been handled appropriately, according to Scripture, this blog WOULD NOT EXIST, for it would not need to.
This blog, with all of its shortcomings and inadequacies, and with all of its participants, both well-meaning and ill-intentioned (on all sides), has been the ONLY reason these issues have been handled AT ALL.
Wake up, friends. Stop shooting at those who are fighting to SAVE the church, not harm it.
And Joe Sumrow, I admire that you posted with your name. I wish more folks here were not anonymous, but that's their call. My name and contact info is in my profile for all to see if they want to contact me. However, Joe, I think it's mighty small of you to show up here one day calling US sick for simply asking WHY sin is being covered and allowed to flourish within the church.
Self-righteous? No, that would be your pastor and his ilk. I'm genuinely sorry for the anger in my post, but at this moment I think it's warranted.
For all of you who claim that we have no basis for judging people because we've all made "mistakes" and we all sin, how about looking at the other definition of "judgement"? I'm not pronouncing judgement on anyone. I'm asking for us to all use discernment (judgement based on Scriptural principles and Godly wisdom) in looking at these issues.
The Bible clearly tells us how to discern sheep from wolves: You will know them by their fruits.
I see little else but rotten fruit from these trees.
And that's why, while my family and I have left so that we can be spiritually nourished and free to worship without distraction elsewhere, I'm still here fighting for the church I know and love. I grew up here, I've worked here, and I have countless hours and tears invested here. Most of all, I have dear friends and precious family members here who I pray will SEE THE LIGHT and wake up and save their church.
If this makes me self-righteous, Joe, then I guess I'm guilty as charged.
Collin Houseal
josh stone
i can also assure you Bro. Steve has NO secret agenda,
Whether or not this is true, how can you know this for a fact? Do you have some sort of inside info, or is that just a "feeling"?
Josh Stone said,
"this web-site reminds me of the democratic party and their hatred for OUR President."
****
This is an interesting comment considering 100's if not 1,000's of folks out here in churchpewland think Steve Gaines reminds them of Bill Clinton. I guess you were against some of the republican party that stood against sodomy in the white house. I hope your comment was just an immature statement and you are not old enough to remember Bill Clinton.
The folks I know personally taking a stand are not doing anything out of hatred. On the contrary, their love for the Lord and love for Bellevue requires the stand being taken for righteousness no matter who sits behind the desk in the pastor's office.
By the way, I don't think you will see party lines drawn in heaven.
Josh Stone said:
this web-site reminds me of the democratic party and their hatred for OUR President.
Josh, I personally have no hatred for our president. But much like the situation with Steve Gaines and others in leadership at Bellevue, however, I would like to ask what evidence you see in the life of George W. Bush that he is indeed the Christian he and others claim that he is.
Perhaps this is a conversation best handled via email or in person, so if you'd like to discuss further, please contact me. Suffice it to say that I can supply you with overwhelming evidence that George W. Bush and the Republican Party in general have played the Christian community for fools for far too long. (And before you go there, that is NOT to say the Democrat Party is any better. If it's possible, they're worse; at best, they're just as mistaken.)
Any and all who are interested, please contact me. It's time Christians throughout these United States woke up to the truth and started seeking God rather than Republican (or any other) Party politics.
Josh Stone said...
"i just wanted to put my feelings out there for everyone. i am NOT a member @ Bellevue, but i have attended for a very long time w/ my family."
May I ask WHY you have never joined the church? Are you a Christian? Do you tithe?
If you are not a member and only a bystander, then you have no business sticking your nose in on this issue.
If you do not tithe and support the church financially, then I can understand why you do not object to the blatant, ungodly spending habits of the leadership.
If you are not a Christian, then I can understand where you are coming from and why you would support the leaderships' failure to follow scripture in the dealings with the Church. Looks to me that either way you fall is not scriptural, but exactly which is it?
Sendoutthelight,
You most definitely need The Light of God's Word shed on these issues! The darkness at Bellevue speaks volumes. Ask HIM to reveal HIS will to you before you blindly follow a man of questionable character and integrity!
Many on this blog have been sitting on this information for weeks and did not contact authorities.
You are guilty of the same crime you are assailing your preacher about.
A week or two is just an "itty bitty" amount of time so you aren't really guilty? Is that how it goes?
Seems the church is just as full of hypocrites as it has always been.
(Reposted from another thread in response to the exact same question...)
Plankeye,
Are you seriously trying to equate those here and elsewhere who have simply heard allegations floating around to those with direct, unquestioned, detailed knowledge of an incident?
Good grief, friend, can you not see the difference?
Most of us here knew precious little beyond the fact that an incident had occurred and it was being kept quiet. Many did not even know names to attach to the incident. What, pray tell, were they to report?
If I may suggest to the moderator. I'm a former GFBC member. I was there during Bro. Steve's tour. Do I hate him? No, but I do believe there is more to the man than many are willing to admit.
I've followed this blog for quite awhile and am familiar with whats been posted. However, there are a lot of people who are being steered toward this blog due to recent media events and they are walking in to the middle of a discussion. Unfortunately, when the view the blog all they see are the heated discussions that are currently active. They come here seeking information but can't find it for having to wade through the 500+ comments per thread that are mostly composed of arguments, points, counter-points, facts and allegations(on both sides).
I think it might be beneficial to those just joining the blog to have a place to go see what the "allegations" are regarding the leadership at Bellevue. A one stop location where they can read for themselves the facts as they have been presented. Then once they're aware of what all the "rigamarole" is about, they can then formulate an educated, spirit-led opinion of what they heard and experienced before commenting.
I think too many people are logging on without full knowledge of what is being discussed and already harboring a pre-conceived notion of what they think is right based on emotion more than fact.
I know that had I not followed this from the start then I'd be jumping to conclusions. As it is, I've been able to wade through it all and have derived an opinion of my own.
I've listened to everyone and have tried to keep an open mind. This blog has taught me a great deal and I'm apprecative of all who've participated.
May the Love of Christ be with you,
Tony Ponder
plankeye,
You are either trying to deflect attention from the real responsible parties, or you have "logic deficiency disorder".
Collin, don't waste your time with this character.
Joe said
Again...why did Paul Williams come foward in June.
Joe,
There is what I understand is only a theory at this point, that PW did not in fact come forward, but that SG found out from some other source (unknown at this time....former staff, snooping through Biblical Guidence files, whatever).. and actually did the confronting.
While it would be disturbing if he was snooping through files, it would be to SG's credit if he did infact confront PW. Why in the world he then went on and dropped it on PW's "assurance" that it was in the past is beyond me.
I can tell you one thing, it was clear from Bryan Miller's comments Sunday morning that they don't trust PW to tell them the truth at this point.
Financeguy,
Not really, there were recent events to be reveales later.
ezekiel
I thought all this was 17 years ago. Guess we are going to find out more via the "death by slow drip" rather than Steve Gaines dragging all this out at once and deal with it. Guess he likes the publicity too much.
If you listened carefully to SG, he didn't say it was all "17 years in the past", he said that PW had led him to believe in June it was 17 years in the past".
Its clear that at least by now, more recent activity is known...or at least there is reason to suspect there is.
The real question to me is, did SG have the same reasons to suspect that PW wasn't telling the truth back in June? That's where the real culpability will come from. Of course, I still maintain that regardless, PW should have been put on the "paid leave of absence" immediatly, and an investigation done. But hey, i'm just a lowly "sheep". What do I know?
For those of you who in the past have complained that this blog has caused nonchristians to avoid Bellevue, tell me what did they think when last night on every Memphis TV news broadcast, was the news that Bellevue has a pedophile minister.Boy that will bring them in.Thanks Sreve Gaines for putting bellevue on the map.
Joe,
Correct! 6 months or 6 years, it would have made the news - but the difference would be that it would have been handled properly immediately regardless of the consequences or the media coverage. There lies the difference between a man of wisdom and integrity and one that is not.
Joe,
Why did Paul come to Steve Gaines in June to confess? Answer that please!!!
To my understanding, PW did not come to SG of his own volition. Someone brought this to SG's attention, possibly even PW's son himself. It makes no sense whatsoever that PW would bring this up, after all these years, in the midst of all of the existing turmoil, on his own.
People on this site are actually saying that Steve Gaines should be prosecuted... give me a break. I don't have all of the facts, maybe you do.
I'm not a lawyer and I don't know the relevant Tennessee statutes. It may very well be that SG is guilty of harboring a pedophile rapist in a legal sense; or maybe that's somehow covered under some clergy privilege. At the least, he's guilty (ethically speaking) of not protecting the church family from possible harm.
The fact that PW committed this despicable act 17 years ago and has allowed HIMSELF to remain on staff as a minister of the Gospel, even counseling victims of similar acts, speaks volumes of PW's lack of spiritual conscience and repentance.
I am so tired of people using scripture as a sword to indict anyone and everyone that disagrees with them. If they are going to be so bold to use scripture and accuse SG of every possible sin, then yes they should use their names and not be so spineless.
Joe, I hope you do not truly believe that people will leave their home church, put their family through untold duress, lose friends and much more over mere disagreements. Despite what's been spouted from the pulpit and those who really have no idea what they're talking about, from day one this has NOT been about styles of worship music, dress codes, preaching style, etc etc ad nauseum. This IS about rank intimidation, egotistical men with too much power and influence and little or no oversight, outright sin that gets swept under the rug. If you don't believe me, PLEASE continue to read the older sections of this blog for more information. There is an extraordinary body of evidence leading to the inescapable conclusion that those in positions of authority and leadership have grossly abused their power.
Pay close attention to the ever-increasing number of voices coming forward from SG's former churches. Their comments are quite insightful, I assure you.
All I and others ask is that you open your heart and mind to nothing but the truth. Follow the evidence and let the Scriptures guide you, and sooner or later you will understand. This has nothing to do with not "liking" SG or anyone else. This has everything to do with seeking the truth at any cost, for the glory of God.
If the newscast had revealed that Gaines had removed the the molester as soon as he learned of him ,back in JUNE .He would look like a leader with morals, instead of someone who keeps secrets from the sheep he is supposed to protect.
You may think it is good and proper to hide a molesting minister from the sheep but I don't.
Paul W. has recent activity, not just 17 years ago.
trucker said...
You may think it is good and proper to hide a molesting minister from the sheep but I don't.
Trucker
Yesterday you stated that I wanted child molesters to serve on the staff of my church.
Today you state that another poster thinks that it is proper to hide a molesting minister from the sheep.
In both cases neither Joe nor myself even insinuated such feelings.
Your posts are either made from poor understanding of what the other poster actually wrote or you are purposefully posting inflammitory responses merely for the sake of argument.
astounded
Accusing those of us here of anything other than concern for the welfare of our church is also inflammatory.
someone said..
Today you state that another poster thinks that it is proper to hide a molesting minister from the sheep.
If you are defending Steve Gaines inaction in dealing with that pervert for SIX months(then giving him what amounts to a paid vacation), then you support hiding a molester from the sheep.That is the way I see it.
Do you think that Gaines did the right thing with PW?
trucker
Has astounded left the building?
I have talked to many friends who bring up the issues of: "Nobody is without sin." "Who are we to judge?" "He's only human." "Let God be the Judge--we are commanded to forgive." "We just need to pray about it and let the Lord take care of it."
While I completely agree that none of us is without sin, and that we should be praying FERVENTLY about all of this, I have been reading some scripture that seems to be quite clear about how to handle such situations as we find ourselves facing today. I'm definitely NOT a Bible scholar, so my understanding of these verses may be incomplete. I would really appreciate feedback concerning the following:
1 CORINTHIANS 5 (NASB version)
1 It is actually reported that there is immorality among you, and immorality of such a kind as does not exist even among the Gentiles, that someone has his father's wife.
2 You have become arrogant and have not mourned instead, so that the one who had done this deed would be removed from your midst.
3 FOR I, on my part, though absent in body but present in spirit, HAVE ALREADY JUDGED him who has so committed this, as though I were present.
4 In the name of our Lord Jesus, when you are assembled, and I with you in spirit, with the power of our Lord Jesus,
5 I have decided to deliver such a one to Satan for the destruction of his flesh, so that his spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.
6 Your boasting is not good. Do you not know that a little leaven leavens the whole lump of dough?
7 Clean out the old leaven so that you may be a new lump, just as you are in fact unleavened. For Christ our Passover also has been sacrificed.
8 Therefore let us celebrate the feast, not with old leaven, nor with the leaven of malice and wickedness, but with the unleavened bread of sincerity and truth.
9 I wrote you in my letter not to associate with immoral people;
10 I DID NOT AT ALL MEAN with the immoral people of this world, or with the covetous and swindlers, or with idolaters, for then you would have to go out of the world.
11 But actually, I wrote to you not to associate with any SO-CALLED BROTHER if he is an immoral person, or covetous, or an idolater, or a reviler, or a drunkard, or a swindler--not even to eat with such a one.
12 For what have I to do with judging outsiders? Do you not judge those who are within the church?
13 But those who are outside, God judges. REMOVE THE WICKED MAN FROM AMONG YOURSELVES.
(NKJ Version)
1 It is actually reported that there is sexual immorality among you, and such sexual immorality as is not even named* among the Gentiles--that a man has his father's wife!
2 And you are puffed up, and have not rather mourned, that he who has done this deed might be taken away from among you.
3 For I INDEED, as absent in body but present in spirit, HAVE ALREADY JUDGED(as though I were present) him who has so done this deed.
4 In the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, when you are gathered together, along with my spirit, with the power of our Lord Jesus Christ,
5 deliver such a one to Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that his spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.
6 Your glorying is not good. Do you not know that a little leaven leavens the whole lump?
7 Therefore purge out the old leaven, that you may be a new lump, since you truly are unleavened. For indeed Christ, our Passover, was sacrificed for us.
8 Therefore let us keep the feast, not with old leaven, nor with the leaven of malice and wickedness, but with the unleavened bread of sincerity and truth.
9 I wrote to you in my epistle not to keep company with sexually immoral people.
10 Yet I CERTAINLY DID NOT MEAN with the sexually immoral people of this world, or with the covetous, or extortioners, or idolaters, since then you would need to go out of the world.
11 But now I have written to you not to keep company with anyone NAMED A BROTHER, who is sexually immoral, or covetous, or an idolater, or a reviler, or a drunkard, or an extortioner--not even to eat with such a person.
12 For what have I to do with judging those also who are outside? Do you not judge those who are inside?
13 But those who are outside God judges. Therefore "PUT AWAY FROM YOURSELVES THE EVIL PERSON."
John MacArthur, who writes a commentary in my Bible, explains verse 5 in the NKJ version as follows:
DELIVER...TO SATAN--"DELIVER is a strong term, used of judicial sentencing. This is equal to excommunicating the professed believer. It amounts to putting that person out of the blessing of Christian worship and fellowship by thrusting him into Satan's realm, the world system."
THE DESTRUCTION OF THE FLESH--"This refers to DIVINE chastening for sin that can result in illness and even death.
THAT HIS SPIRIT MAY BE SAVED--"The unrepentant person may suffer greatly under God's judgement, but will not be an evil influence in the church; and he will more likely be saved under that judgement than if TOLERATED AND ACCEPTED IN THE CHURCH."
Piglet said...
astounded
Accusing those of us here of anything other than concern for the welfare of our church is also inflammatory.
Concern for the welfare of your church does not give you carte blanche to libel someone by misstating their quotes.
trucker said...
someone said..
Today you state that another poster thinks that it is proper to hide a molesting minister from the sheep.
If you are defending Steve Gaines inaction in dealing with that pervert for SIX months(then giving him what amounts to a paid vacation), then you support hiding a molester from the sheep.That is the way I see it.
Do you think that Gaines did the right thing with PW?
Maybe I am not as diligent as you in reading the posts on this blog.
Could you point out to me just who advocated Steve Gaines covering up for 6 months a rapist being on staff?
Joe Sumrow said,
"It would have made news no matter when it was reveal...now, 6 months ago, or 6 years ago"
I don't know if this would be true. Did you ever hear about the other ministers from Bellevue who were dissmissed on the news. If this situation would have been delt with accordingly, all this would not be as escalated as it is now. Many members were not aware of the ministers who have been asked to leave in the past.
astounded
Many are posting here, slamming us for discussing these things. Our family has been at Bellevue for 25 years. Until September of this year, we supported the pastor even though we missed Jim Whitmire and disliked changes in the music program. We just decided that these were part of an adjustment we would have to make under new leadership.
Then, many longtime friends, loyal staff and lay leaders were being intimidated and pushed out. Those that stayed and had questions were demonized in a manner we KNEW these people did not deserve. After much research, we were dismayed to find our leaders had been lying to the church body. What does a member do that knows this?
Please know this is the only forum we have been able to use and it has been very productive because many matters have come out that were once hidden - INCLUDING the recent Paul Williams situation.
I am so grieved that those of us here continue to be demonized but I am more grieved that many of our church friends believe what they are being told by leadership.
Prayingcollosians1
It is interesting that Paul admonishes the believers in this text to not associate with the immoral in the church while the immoral in OUR church admonish members not to associate with those of us who seek the truth in these matters of morality (or the lack therof) within our own leadership.
Astounded said...
someone said
Bruce can sleep with whomever he wishes.
David C. can buy booze for others.
Paul W. can sodimize and rape
Is this the spotless bride that Jesus is coming for?
Actually it is, and praise the Lord for it.
The spotless bride does not refer to sinlessness. It refers to the fact the sins of the bride have been washed clean by the blood of Christ.
12:12 AM, December 19, 2006
Your response in bold gives me every appearence of defending the leadership of BBC.
Do you agree with the way Gaines has handeled the PW affair?
astouded said..Could you point out to me just who advocated Steve Gaines covering up for 6 months a rapist being on staff?
10:49 PM, December 19, 2006
Actually Steve Gaines did .On Sunday morning when he told the church that he has known of this since June.Did you not hear him?
astounded
I agree that the sins of all of us that have accepted Christ are washed clean. But the Bible also speaks of repentance, consequences of sin, standards for ministers and deacons, etc.
I think we all know that none of our leaders have, or ever will be, perfect. I don't expect that. I do expect them to be honest, transparent, and blameless (dealing with sin and confessing it immediately).
Astounded,
Get used to trucker. He/she is known for misquoting people + adding words to people's mouth around here.
Astounded do support the manner in which Gaines handeled the Paul W. affair?
Corrected post
trucker said...
Astounded do yousupport the manner in which Gaines handeled the Paul W. affair?
11:07 PM, December 19, 2006
Does anyone know if Bruce Brooke's law firm is still going to be representing Bellevue in our legal affairs?
here is the complete list of Ace's whit wisdom and knowledge that he has graced us with over the weeks and well into the future
I'll check on it,I have to search the facts.you are pathetic,you are mean, you are hateful, don't put words in my mouth.I didn't say that, I don't have the facts yet,you are hateful,you don't know .blogmaster they are picking on me,you quoting me out of context. quoting me out of context,God annointed him,God Annointed him,God annointed him,God Annointed him,God annointed him,God Annointed him,God annointed him,God Annointed him,God annointed him,God Annointed him,God annointed him,God Annointed him,
Here isthe total depth of the rapier whitt of Acey, you need not try hsrd to find a little of it in every
Trucker,
Thanks for showing your lack of maturity. I'm sure a lot of the blog readers are realizing how crazy you are.
Crazy maybe but at least I'm not Steve Gaines water boy.
I also happy that I don't have to defend a pastor who endangers children by leaving a child rapist on staff for six months then gives him a paid vacation.
acey
I've got a 5:00 Am run tomorrow .So I cannot stay up and play,but thanks to modern technology I will keep up while on the road . See you sometimes tomorrow night.
Have a good night.
Ace/Trucker,
In the spirit of Christmas, and considering the greater purpose and importance of all this, can y'all call a truce? Shoot, just ignore each other.
I for one won't be posting much (if at all) over the next two weeks, for a number of reasons.
Until I return, grace and peace to each and every one of you. May the Christ of Christmas truly bless you and yours, and give to us all abundantly of His unsearchable wisdom, for we shall surely need it.
Piglet said...
astounded
Many are posting here, slamming us for discussing these things. Our family has been at Bellevue for 25 years. Until September of this year, we supported the pastor even though we missed Jim Whitmire and disliked changes in the music program. We just decided that these were part of an adjustment we would have to make under new leadership.
Then, many longtime friends, loyal staff and lay leaders were being intimidated and pushed out. Those that stayed and had questions were demonized in a manner we KNEW these people did not deserve. After much research, we were dismayed to find our leaders had been lying to the church body. What does a member do that knows this?
Please know this is the only forum we have been able to use and it has been very productive because many matters have come out that were once hidden - INCLUDING the recent Paul Williams situation.
I am so grieved that those of us here continue to be demonized but I am more grieved that many of our church friends believe what they are being told by leadership.
Prayingcollosians1
It is interesting that Paul admonishes the believers in this text to not associate with the immoral in the church while the immoral in OUR church admonish members not to associate with those of us who seek the truth in these matters of morality (or the lack therof) within our own leadership.
10:58 PM, December 19, 2006
Piglet
I agree with you wholeheartedly. My problem is with posters that distort the words of other posters, regardless of which side of the fence thay stand on.
Ch,
In the spirit of Christmas, and considering the greater purpose and importance of all this, can y'all call a truce? Shoot, just ignore each other.
I have no problem with this...I've actually asked to get this whole issue resolved previously but I was ignored and such. So trucker, what do you say?
Trucker,
I've got a 5:00 Am run tomorrow .So I cannot stay up and play,but thanks to modern technology I will keep up while on the road . See you sometimes tomorrow night.
Have a safe trip.
trucker said...
Astounded said...
someone said
Bruce can sleep with whomever he wishes.
David C. can buy booze for others.
Paul W. can sodimize and rape
Is this the spotless bride that Jesus is coming for?
Actually it is, and praise the Lord for it.
The spotless bride does not refer to sinlessness. It refers to the fact the sins of the bride have been washed clean by the blood of Christ.
12:12 AM, December 19, 2006
Your response in bold gives me every appearence of defending the leadership of BBC.
Do you agree with the way Gaines has handeled the PW affair?
10:59 PM, December 19, 2006
That is exactly my point. You misunderstand a post and then you blast the poster. If you would delve into my other posts you would see that I would be the first to clean house of ALL the church staff. Their actions are despicable and I am including the staff members that do not agree with Gaines' action but remain quiet.
But that does not reduce the fact that BBC is still the spotless bride of Christ.
stillwaitingandwatching
AMEN,AMEM AND AMEN
Thank you.Your post is on target.Just think if she had a child rapist for a helper do you think she would be upset about it.
These people are always complaining about what the world will think about the church because of this blog,well I hate to tell them that when worldly people read that SS teachers are defending child rapist in the church the world will think that we at BBC are a bunch of dangerous nuts.
trucker said...
Corrected post
trucker said...
Astounded do yousupport the manner in which Gaines handeled the Paul W. affair?
At the current time I support nothing Steve Gaines does. And when it came to view that he harbored a child rapist on staff, I have come to the conclusion that the only alternative of for him to go.
But I still think that Steve Gaines coming to Bellevue is part of God's plan. I also think that this blog is a cog in God's plan. That doesn't mean that I believe that God intends for Gaines to remain at BBC for 30+ years.
ace said...
Ch,
In the spirit of Christmas, and considering the greater purpose and importance of all this, can y'all call a truce? Shoot, just ignore each other.
I have no problem with this...I've actually asked to get this whole issue resolved previously but I was ignored and such. So trucker, what do you say?
11:32 PM, December 19, 2006
I saw this just before shutting everything down.I really do agree you and CH ,yeah ,lets have a truce and who knows we may get used to it.
When we have that lunch with piglet I'll even eat some crow with you, If I don't get online before I get back all of you have a safe Christmas
As a member of GFBC, it is with great sadness that I hear of the turmoil at BBC. I pray that somehow, in all this mess, Christ will reign victorious and use this situation to "refine" where refiner's fire is needed. Although my family felt some "uneasiness" during the time that SG was our pastor, I always felt that SG did love the Lord with all his heart, mind and soul. I did sense that at times he seemed to struggle with "his ego", he did at times elude to this and I always prayed that God would use this "thorn in his side" to keep him in check. As a matter of fact, when he was called to Bellevue, I wondered if God sent him there as a place for refinement in order to be able to mature him and use him as an instrument of His word. We had visited BBC a couple of times when in Memphis on business and supported and subscribed to LWF ministries for a number of years. I felt that the "atmosphere/style of worship, etc." at BBC was much different than at our church. I will also say that at times I felt that our church willingly gave SG too much "power" and did not maintain the checks and balances that are needed for oversight when humans are involved in trying to further our Father's name. I feel a certain amount of guilt myself for not questioning more regarding the administration during his time of service here. I think as a new Christian, I was too wrapped up in my own relationship with God and maybe sometimes overlooked or excused somethings that just didn't seem "right". I did feel a sense of "if you don't like it, get out" at times, but I think I tried to pass it off as coming under the "need for unity" in the body of Christ. Also, I often found myself thinking that no church is perfect and as long as the Word was preached (which I feel was for the most part) I could continue to grow spiritually even if I didn't agree on everything. I will say that under SG, my family did grow tremendously and he did instill in us a "hunger for the word" which has continued and has increased tremendously with our new pastor. I will definitely give the credit for that to SG, despite his imperfections. As a matter of fact, I am fairly sure that my family would have been victim of the sin of divorce had it not been for his teaching regarding what the Bible tells us about marriage and family. Also, his wife is an UNBELIEVABLE teacher of the word and I have nothing but utmost respect for her. I am so saddened by the pain/turmoil that she and the children must be experiencing. I guess what I am trying to say is that while I absolutely believe that the manner in which the circumstances surrounding the fallen minister (PW, I think)were handled (or more not-handled) was unmistakenly WRONG and demonstrated an extreme lapse of judgement, I pray that somehow God can take this situation and use it for His absolute glory. I don't know if SG will be able to be further "refined" while serving at Bellevue or if it will necessitate his resignation. My prayer is that true humility will be shown in the leadership at BBC with the hope that trust and forgiveness can be restored for all of those hurting. (for ALL parties involved, especially the victim of the sexual abuse and his father) I am not sure if this can be accomplished with SG at Bellevue, but I do know that if all parties are able to give this over to the Lord and submit to his Word, He can and will restore. I do thing that SG is a man who loves God and I really believed he will be "refined" whether at Bellevue or not. I am so sorry things had to come to such as this to get attention of all. But I know that some of the most painful experiences in my life have served to "break" me and draw me closer to Him so that I might serve Him. I can only imagine how grieved our heavenly Father is over this sin against a child and to see the awful path this event and the mismanagement of it must grieve Him beyond belief. I know a little about this kind of pain as I was a victim of sexual abuse as a child. Also, my daughter was sexually abused as well. The anger is so hard to give up, but Christ has showed me that I alone cannot carry it and that He is willing to shoulder it for me. And forgiveness and reconciliation in NO way gives up accountability. There has been partial restoration and reconciliation in our family for the parties involved, but it is something that has to be given up to the Lord daily in order to not let it consume you so that you may still honor and serve Him. Accountability also makes for some slightly "uncomfortable" situations that we have to institute while. It sometimes seems that when you are forced to hold someone accountable, it may appear to others that you have not truly forgiven, but for the victim AND the perpetrator accountability is a MUST. In fact, it may be sinful if you do not hold someone accountable for such a situation.
Please do not take this as a "give SG a chance" request. I have no idea what is best or where God will take you all with these circumstances, but most of all I pray for healing by His loving hand.
Also please note that my comments regarding SG tenure at GFBC reflect my own observations/feelings and that in no way means they are factual. They are simply that-my own observations.
God Bless You ALL, especially the young man who was heinously victimized. I can hardly even bring myself to type the truth -raped by his own father.
In His Love
cjcnme (member GFBC)
cjcnme,
Thank you so much for your words. I feel very similarly about Dr. Gaines - a man who truly loves God and who has been a blessing to me and my family, though he has his own flaws, as with any other pastor, that he must learn to work out.
m2much
Thanks for caring enough about us to post. I am sorry for your family's pain in regard to sexual abuse.
Interesting column, well worth reading:
Honest Sinners and Phony Christians by Paul Proctor
...CH now returns to his holiday vacation from the forum...
Steve Gaines:
"Some people have questioned why I waited for several months. It's simply this: I acted out of a heartfelt concern and compassion for this minister because the event occurred many years ago, he was receiving professional counseling; and I was concerned about confidentiality. In light of the events that have unfolded, I realize now that I should have discussed it further with this minister and brought it to the attention of our church leadership immediately."
So,he acted out of heartfelt concern and compassion for an admitted child rapist. What about heartfelt concern and compassion for the children that are possibly at risk due to the presence of a child rapist on campus that he has known about for 6 months?
And, he was concerned about confidentiality. Is the confidentiality of an admitted child rapist more important than the safety and security of the children that may come in contact with this admitted child rapist?
This man is unbelievable.
Praise God. Dr. Mike Spradlin has spoken for countless thousands of people who share the same opinion. Steve Gaines must resign. We are a forgiving church. We are a loving church. However, there are still consequences. As a husband, as a dad, and as a long time BBC member, how dare you retain a confessed pedophile in a leadership on staff for 6 months!! This is unacceptable.
Bryan Miller: You are President of ECS. Would you allow a confessed pedophile to remain on staff of your school? I certainly hope not. You allowed this to happen at our church!! What are you thinking? You knew about this for at least 2 weeks.
Steve Gaines – Please resign.
Bryan Miller – Please resign position.
Mark Dougharty – Please resign.
David Coombs – Please resign.
factsonlyplease wrote:
Steve Gaines – Please resign.
Bryan Miller – Please resign position.
Mark Dougharty – Please resign.
David Coombs – Please resign.
Good list - If you don't mind, here's a few others:
Steve Tucker - Please resign
Harry Smith - Please resign
Chuck Taylor - Please resign
John Caldwell - Please resign
Finally! Somebody with a NAME speaks out and gives us nobodies some crediblity! Boy, that was long overdue!
THANK YOU THANK YOU Dr. Spradlin!!
Plenty of folks will dis a little pink pig but won't mess with a seminary prez!
Woohoo!
InformedatBBC said...
factsonlyplease wrote:
Steve Gaines – Please resign.
Bryan Miller – Please resign position.
Mark Dougharty – Please resign.
David Coombs – Please resign.
Good list - If you don't mind, here's a few others:
Steve Tucker - Please resign
Harry Smith - Please resign
Chuck Taylor - Please resign
John Caldwell - Please resign
I think the above list is a good start. I would like to carry it a bit further, though. I qualify my succeeding list with the following statement. Any staff member who has conspired with the current senior pastor in the many documented events should resign due to their act of commission. Any staff member that has been aware of the many irregularities, sins and crimes that have been prepetrated by any staff member and remained silent, should resign due to their acts of omission.
So if any of the following people have come out publically to rebuke the actions of comission of certain staff members, I apologize for their inclusion on the following list. I will not do the honors of including the child rapist on the list since he should have far greater issues to worry about than resigning.
Adams, Paul
LIBRARIAN
Alexander, Mark
DIRECTOR, DESIGN SERVICES
Barnwell, Jim
DIRECTOR, COMMUNICATIONS
Beal, Andy
DIRECTOR, SPORTS OUTREACH
Bowman, Mark
MINISTER, BIBLICAL GUIDANCE
Brown, Kelley
DIRECTOR, ACCOUNTING
Clarke, Darrell
MINISTER, BIBLICAL GUIDANCE/PASTORAL CARE
Cowart, Steve
DIRECTOR, MEDIA PRODUCTION
Dougharty, Mark
ASSOCIATE PASTOR
Eanes, Eric
DIRECTOR, CHURCH GROWTH/OUTREACH/EE
Fish, Jamie
MINISTER, BIBLICAL GUIDANCE
Freeman, Chip
CHURCH ADMINISTRATOR
Fussell, Chris
MINISTER, INDOOR RECREATION
Gaines, Steve
PASTOR
Gary, Leslie
GIRLS MINISTRY DIRECTOR
Gates, Mark
MINISTER, ADULT EDUCATION
Gatewood, Todd
MINISTER, OUTDOOR RECREATION
Haley, Kevin W
DIRECTOR, FOOD SERVICES
Hatley, Keny
MINISTER, WORSHIP PRODUCTION
Hauss, Gregg
MINISTER, SENIOR HIGH
Houseal, Deborah
DIRECTOR, CHILDREN'S PROGRAMMING
Howard, Jeff
DIRECTOR, STUDENT DISCIPLESHIP
Jerkins, Ron
ASSISTANT, PASTORAL CARE
Jerkins, Sara
ADMINISTRATOR, CHILDHOOD EDUCATION
Jernigan, Joe
MINISTER, BIBLICAL GUIDANCE/PASTORAL CARE
Jolly, Rita
CHURCH HOSTESS
Jones, Rick
BOOKSTORE MANAGER
Kilpatrick, Richard
ASSISTANT MINISTER, BIBLICAL GUIDANCE
Lenow, Marge
DIRECTOR, WOMEN'S MINISTRIES
Long, Doyal
MINISTER, BIBLICAL GUIDANCE/PASTORAL CARE
Maldonado, Mario
MINISTER, HISPANIC MINISTRY
Marcum, Steve
MINISTER, MISSIONS
Mathis, Kent
MINISTER, MISSIONS
McQuiston, Bryson
MINISTER OF CARE MINISTRIES
Morris, Tony
DIRECTOR, TECHNICAL SERVICES
Newberry, Phil
MINISTER, STUDENTS
Parker, Jamie
MINISTER, MUSIC
Pyron, Jason
MINISTER, MIDDLE SCHOOL
Ray, Larry
MINISTER, EDUCATION
Reich, Ken
MINISTER, STUDENT MUSIC
Robinson, Robin
DIRECTOR, HUMAN RESOURCES
Scott, David
MINISTER, OPERATIONS
Shelton, Tim
MINISTER, SINGLES
Shows, Scotty
MINISTER, RECREATION
Stewart, Josh
CHURCH PIANIST
Street, Bill
MINISTER, BIBLICAL GUIDANCE/PASTORAL CARE
Stroube, Adam
DIRECTOR, SPORTS OUTREACH
Swafford, John
DIRECTOR, FINANCE
Tallent, Jason
MINISTER, MERIDIAN, SR ADULTS, DISCIPLE LIFE
Threlkeld, Carter
MINISTER, INSTRUMENTAL MUSIC
Tyner, Jon
ASSISTANT MINISTER, MUSIC
Weatherwax, Phil
MINISTER, COMMUNITY MISSIONS
Williams, Webb
MINISTER, NEW MEMBER ASSIMILATION
Wingo, Ryan
MUSIC ASSISTANT, PRAISE AND WORSHIP
Worrell, Karen
DIRECTOR, INFORMATION TECHNOLOGY
facts_only_please,
informedatBBC,
astounded,
Amen. Amen.
God will prevail. Now, a leader has spoken. Fellow Bellevue members, it is time to move. These staff members and leaders listed need to go immediately.
I also agree. My wife and I have been shocked with what has happened to our beloved church over the last fourteen months. These men must go.
Dr. Spradlin: Thank you for your courage! Thank you for your leadership. God bless you and your family.
"sendthelight50@aol.com" sheds more light:
NBBCOF replied to STL's previous statement with this:
"You've made your position crystal clear. Now, please remove me from your mailing list (to quote some of our deacons). You might want to invest in a good spellcheck program, too. Correct spelling and grammar add so much credence to what you're trying to say, even if what you're saying is ludicrous. Is this an example of Christian love that you're expressing? So sad."
I would like to take this opportunity to apologize for the spellcheck/grammar remark. That was spoken in a moment of frustration, was "below the belt," and uncalled for.
Ignoring the request for no further e-mails, STL responded:
"I might need a good spell check program but you need some good sense which I could teach you some things about the love of Jesus Christ. I also wonder if David could pass your spelling and intelligent test? Spelling didn't knock down Goliath and this little old grandma apparently hit you between the eyes or else you would not have said 'Remove me from your mailing list' Yes, I am one of the Old timers in Bellevue who is ready to tell people to repent from your sins and turn toward God under the leadership of Dr. Steve Gaines or get out! The only reason you have not heard from any of the old timers until now is because we have been patient waiting for you all to grow up. We were there with Dr. Rogers for more years than most of your ages and no some of us are not highly educated like some of you but we have something that your generation needs and that is time with God going through fires of life. Now send this to all your deacon friends and they had better be looking over their shoulders because as they are exposed they are going to go and IF Brother Steve for some reason decides to leave Bellevue, Ichabod" will be written across the door post and you all can pat yourself on your back as you sit back and gloat in your glory in a beautiful building whose reputation and integrity has been torn down not by Pastor Steve but by you and your people.
If you don't want some more truth of yourselves exposed shut your mouths. It is time for you all to be placed under the microscope instead of Pastor Steve."
NBBCOF didn't and won't respond again, but STL seems to be trying to rally the troops with this statement which was sent to multiple recipients:
"It has been brought to my attention by one of the, 'highly intelligent' web blasters of Pastor Steve that I need to invest in a spell check program. I do wish to apologize for misspelling some words. I wrote him back, even though he apparently lacks in common sense and enjoys destroying the fine reputation that Bellevue has maintained for numerous years, informing him that I am one of the old timers in Bellevue, a grandmother who does not have the, 'Intelligence of he and his friends' I have something far better. I also informed him that David did not knock down Goliath with his proper use of words or correct spelling, he did it alone and he did it with a single rock. This arrogant trouble maker is a mere Goliath and has been shot between the eyes. He requested that he be removed from my email! See how easy it is to get rid of these people! Don't let this grandmother have to do the work of a bunch of men. Get in there and just speak up in the name of Jesus Christ for our Pastor. We have got to become men and women like Joshua, Caleb, Paul, Peter, Mary, and Esther. No one is too young and no one is too old and everyone has a voice (trumpet) make a sound for Pastor Steve like the Israelites did for Joshua and the walls will come down!"
No comment.
NBBCOF
Get in there and just speak up in the name of Jesus Christ for our Pastor. We have got to become men and women like Joshua, Caleb, Paul, Peter, Mary, and Esther.
I guess I need to reread my Bible. I missed the parts where these men and women harbored child rapists.
"and the walls will come down!"
This is what concerns me the most. If this mess is not straightened out and the carnality of this church is not cleansed, the walls will definitely come down, much like Sodom and Gomorrah.
Lest we forget where the root word for Sodomy.
Astounded, NASS, and others...
This is further evidence of what I've feared: The vast majority of the church body and much of the staff — ESPECIALLY the elder generations, since they're not web savvy — have no idea what's really going on. They don't know about the real issues, and they don't know any details. Bottom line, they know nothing other than what is/has been presented from the pulpit, and we know all too well what that consists of.
Sorry, I need one of those grammar checking programs.
Lest we forget where the root word for Sodomy originated.
CH said...
Astounded, NASS, and others...
This is further evidence of what I've feared: The vast majority of the church body and much of the staff — ESPECIALLY the elder generations, since they're not web savvy — have no idea what's really going on. They don't know about the real issues, and they don't know any details. Bottom line, they know nothing other than what is/has been presented from the pulpit, and we know all too well what that consists of.
My concerns also. While expecting wheat the sheep are being fed chaff.
Cjesusnme is right. Stay the course and stay tuned... ! It's all about integrity.
NASS
I would like to see a timeline.
I have followed, read, and sometimes posted in this blog ever since I found out about it, not long after it started. I also read the first blog, the one with the interviews of Mark Sharpe and more.
It's all starting to run together for me, and I've been reading it. For those who can't/don't/haven't been reading this all along, I'm sure it's near to impossible to catch up and understand what has been happening.
Would someone be willing to make a clear presentation of the timeline of events, with a concise description of these events and MAIN grievance of each issue, complete with scriptural references... AKA-sin/lies/poor judgement calls that have been committed
It seems that this timeline might need additions in the future, because of the shroud of secrecy spread by the administration. However, it would be helpful for those who are just discovering there are problems in the church, especially for people who think that most of the "troublesome" church members just don't like SG or the music.
I'll help, but I need help with the timelines.
My email is in my profile
What happened to Chuck Taylor, who is chairman of the deacons? Where is the leadership? Please Chuck, address the church Sunday and let us know how Steve Gaines is going to be handled. Silence from the Chairman of the Deacons is not acceptable and is not being a leader.
David,
The love letter was received on December 19th. :-)
SWTT,
I know they re-elected deacons and the new Chairman is Bryan Miller (I'm right on that, aren't I?). It is weird that Chuck's so quiet. Well, no words speak volumes, do they not?
Karen
Please add to David's list that as Steve Gaines reached his 1 year anniversary at BBC, he was quoted in the Messager as saying he loved it when people said "amen" during his sermons. This was after his dream about Mark Kelly saying "amen" too much.
Karen
Thank you, Karen and David
david,
Thanks for the list - I hope you had that written down somewhere. I got a headache from just reading it.
Charis,
I hope you see the building of issues. First was an "itty bitty" fence, now we're dealing with child molestation. What's next? Wait, don't answer that - I don't think I want to know.
Karen
Yes, Bryan Miller is the new Chairman of the Deacons.
He is also President of ECS.
David
Wow- great list. Thanks for that recap :)
swtt
Great post (although, as someone else said, Bryan Miller now gets the honors).
Love ya, man!!!!!
To pass blame on B. Miller for this is absurd. Not only did he not know about this until 2 weeks ago, but he had to put Williams on leave for legal reasons to protect the church. I'm sick of people who don't understand what they are talking about or know any facts asking for innocent goldy men to resign when there are a few other men who have done wrong. If you were hired and qualified for a job that would greatly help your company or church and then found out soon after that your boss had made mistakes long before you started, would you expect to be blamed and asked to resign? That's ridiculous. Why tear down Goldly leaders that will be vital to the church recovery from all of this regardless of what happens with the pastor's fate?
Facts only please - it would be nice if you had some. I pray God has mercy on you for the slander of these godly men!
To 'Rational'
Bryan Miller knew for 2 weeks. As Chairman of the Deacons, he should have IMMEDIATELY pushed for action. Why did he not??? Are you ok with child molesters being on staff? Would he allow a staff member at ECS to remain on staff for 2 minutes, let alone 2 weeks, if the person CONFESSED to being a molester? God help you.
Miller was required to handle the way he did to protect the church for legal reasons.
I am not OK with molester remaining on staff. I believe that Gaines should have let him go immediately in June. So have the issue with Gaines, not Miller or any of these other men who continually sacrifice themselves for the good of the church.
I have only been reading all the posts for days now. I am very shocked and sad for everybody they hurt and are hurting because those placed in positions of authority in BBC are doing nothing, but adding to the hurt. I already know they did not care, but I did not know they did all those things too. Now I know I am right they are capable of anything. Power and money corrupt some people. People who are control freaks and who want to hurt people always seek positions of authority, church or government. So people will trust them, and people will say no they will never do that. I don't have all the evidence people will like I just know too much. I am waiting and praying for the L-RD G-D to unveil all I believe at least 2 members are guilty of. I have been praying since some month after Jan 2003. I am not ready to say more, I am praying about saying more. One of the men is a layman he said. People at Bellevue want to support the Authority figures over there but look at what John said in the 3rd book of John.
3John 1:9 I wrote unto the church: but Diotrephes, who loveth to have the preeminence among them, receiveth us not.
10Wherefore, if I come, I will remember his deeds which he doeth, prating against us with malicious words: and not content therewith, neither doth he himself receive the brethren, and forbiddeth them that would, and casteth them out of the church.
11Beloved, follow not that which is evil, but that which is good. He that doeth good is of God: but he that doeth evil hath not seen God.
What I am trying to say here is that just because one person or more does evil does not mean anyone should go along and do nothing those people did not, now he got into trouble with John, you know he dealt with him. All sin is evil, but who is repenting of those people who hurt people? BBC is the L-RD's house of prayer, not private property. But they have degraded it (BBC to that) That church building and all the property listed as BBC property and all the money is Property of our L-RD G-D and I will be praying it stays with his people, those who hate evil I know he hates all these thing mentioned. See I told you Ezekiel 34 hurts Paul W. and all those people every one of them has no rights over BBC.
BBC security men support their layman. When I say BBC is capable of anything what does that mean? Anything is Every Thing
I don't hate Bellevue, I love you all. I pray for BBC just follow G-D's commandments, for BBC to be nice to people and not hurt them, I pray BBC will be people who love with all sincerity, BBC people to be forgiving people. I pray blessing, but if there is more evil for the L-RD to even now make even if anyone even knows of evil that was done, that nothing will be left unveiled. Pray with me if you love first the L-RD our G-D and love BBC to stand as a pure bride.
Peace BBC
James Dobson called Mike Spradlin today to offer support. Also, Mrs. Joyce Rogers has made a statement that should be on the news tonight.
Article just released on Baptist Press:
Bellevue's Gaines should resign, seminary president says
Dec 20, 2006
By Staff
Baptist Press
CORDOVA, Tenn. (BP)--A call for the resignation of Bellevue Baptist Church senior pastor Steve Gaines has been voiced by the president of Mid-America Baptist Theological Seminary, which has a longstanding relationship with the prominent Southern Baptist congregation.
At issue, according to comments to the Memphis Commercial Appeal by the seminary president, Michael Spradlin, is Gaines' six-month silence after learning of a sexual abuse allegation 17 years ago against a longtime Bellevue staff member.
"If Steve Gaines found out that a child had been sexually molested by one of his ministers and if he did nothing to address it, then he needs to step down immediately," the newspaper quoted Spradlin as saying in a Dec. 20 article.
"We cannot take chances with other people's children," said Spradlin, who also is interim pastor of nearby Germantown Baptist Church. "If he [Gaines] knew about this and kept quiet, then he's put Bellevue in a very dangerous position and possibly put children and the emotionally vulnerable at risk."
Gaines, in a Dec. 19 statement quoted by the newspaper, wrote: "The past few days have been difficult ones as I have worked through an issue that no pastor wishes to face. We have had to place a minister on a paid leave of absence due to a past moral failure.
"I learned about this in June from the minister involved and believed the issue was settled. Two weeks ago I was surprised to find out that the issue was not settled.
"Some people have questioned why I waited for several months," Gaines acknowledged. "It's simply this: I acted out of a heartfelt concern and compassion for this minister because the event occurred many years ago, he was receiving professional counseling; and I was concerned about confidentiality. In light of the events that have unfolded, I realize now that I should have discussed it further with this minister and brought it to the attention of our church leadership immediately."
Spradlin, in his comments to the Commercial Appeal, also referenced controversy that has buffeted Gaines since he was called as Bellevue's pastor in July 2005 succeeding Adrian Rogers, who had retired after leading the church for 32 years. Rogers died of cancer in November 2005.
"There's a sense of Steve Gaines being the measure of what's right and what's wrong," Spradlin was quoted as saying. "If you agree with him, you're right and if you disagree, you're wrong.
"But I think he's spent all his credibility and people are losing trust in him," Spradlin said.
The Commercial Appeal did not report a response from Gaines.
The newspaper identified the Bellevue staff member accused of sexual abuse 17 years ago as Paul Williams, a 34-year staffer. The newspaper did not identify his position at the 30,000-member congregation, although Bellevue's website previously listed him as minister of prayer/special projects. Williams has been placed on paid leave while an investigation of a "moral failure" is conducted, the paper reported.
Bellevue's director of communications, Jim Barnwell, told the Commercial Appeal, "I think the important thing to remember is that Steve Gaines realized he made a mistake, he's taking ownership of that and trying his best to fix it." Barnwell added, "I don't believe there was a deliberate attempt to hide anything."
Describing the investigation, the Commercial Appeal said it will include Bellevue members "and independent sources" during which "Williams will not perform any ministerial duties or be on the Bellevue campus."
Earlier this year, Gaines' brief tenure at Bellevue encountered a stormy challenge from a former deacon, Mark Sharpe, and other opponents whose accusations -- aired on the Internet and in the Commercial Appeal -- include Gaines' alleged intimidation of those who disagree with him, his alleged forcing out a popular music director and his alleged refusal to disclose his salary, which they contend is nearly $500,000.
Barnwell told Baptist Press at the time that "the allegations are simply not true," noting that "not one" former or current staff member, past deacon chairman or member of what Bellevue calls its board of directors had "broken ranks and joined the opposition."
Gaines and other church leaders devoted the Sept. 24 Sunday evening service to the controversy. Gaines told the congregation that the session was not a "business meeting," but a time for church members to receive information "from this pulpit from the leaders of this church."
Gaines, deacon chairman Chuck Taylor, Harry Smith, a longtime member of the church's finance committee, and Chip Freeman, the church's chief administrator, reportedly addressed various allegations point by point.
Compiled by Art Toalston.
TRUTHSEEKER,
I like your idea. For now you can send your statement to Saving Bellevue. I just saw where they are posting letter of support for Dr. Spradlin.
Rational said...
Miller was required to handle the way he did to protect the church for legal reasons.
1:40 PM, December 20, 2006
As an educator, Bryan Miller was obligated to inform Child Protective Services (or whatever it's called in this town). He is bound by law to report just like day care workers, doctors, nurses, etc. I think he should know better and he didn't. He didn't pick up the phone or write an email. He just went on his merry way based on the word of the pastor and of a child molestor. Hope he can sleep at night. If I were an ECS parent, I would be concerned.
rational said...
I'm sick of people who don't understand what they are talking about or know any facts asking for innocent goldy men to resign when there are a few other men who have done wrong.
Innocent and Godly men indeed. Surely you jest? Not 2 weeks not 2 days not 2 minutes nor 2 seconds would have passed before this man was turned into the proper authorities if SG didn't propagate a lack of integrity through-out his immediate circle. Only when SG and the people from his administration that keep up with this blog realized that this Tiger was out of the bag did they decide to take action. There is absolutely NO denying the FACT that without this BLOG there would have been no admission to the Congregation. It is clearly evident I need not offer you any proof so don't bother asking. The question is what will we do? When is as Bro Ray says "Enough" really enough? If SG doesn't resign tonight it had better be Sunday or Sunday night. The clarion call for this to happen will only build I can promise you that. The Lord's WILL will be done. SG was brought to Bellevue by God to cleanse his house. It is taking place as we speak. It is absolute and undeniable.
josh stone Isn't it a little off balance to say you agree with sg when he says "if you people don't like it go somewhere else" ? Afterall, you are not even a member of Bellevue and sg is a new commer. You are speaking to many who have been members of Bellevue for years! Now it is no longer their chruch but they can leave because they don't agree or question the actions and words of the pastor that are deceptive or bullying or a power trip? The church does not BELONG to sg just because he is the new commer and pastor nor does it belong to you, to make such a statement. It is not up to either of you to state who can come and who cannot. or who is welcome and who is not. What arrogance!
One of the news stations said that SG will address the congregation this evening. It might be streamed on line.
Yep, he did. I thought for a minute he was actually going to resign. He did mention that Dr. Mike had called for his resignation and then said that he would like to continue to be the pastor if that was okay. Then, the inevitable standing o. I was actually very impressed with how he handled the situation as far as not blasting Dr. Mike. Now, we will have to see if his actions match his words. I really hope so. I know that Dr. Spradlin was very upset about the article- The CA sort of ambushed him apparantly. Came to interview him about something else-then asked about Bellevue. If you know Dr. Mike, you know that he is not one to sidestep. I am thankful for that- Praying for Bellevue, etc.
Good grief...he should be in politics.
repost:
Napoleon said...
Is anyone familiar with the "secret list" that Bellvue has maintained for the past several years? It was kept under lock and key by its caretaker Paul Williams. Anyone of any "questionable character" who became a member of Bellevue was placed on this list. Anytime an individual volunteered to serve in any capacity within the church, their name was flagged, and the caretaker (PW) unlocked his list to see what, if anything the individual had been blacklisted for. If the ministry area fell within the confines of what they had been accused of(not necessarily guilty of), then that person was not allowed to serve in that area. Any takers?
11:03 PM, December 17, 2006
I got an email with information about a "list"...
> Would you please send this out to our class encouraging each one to pray for Bro. Steve and Bellevue. Also, encourage each person to call the church to give him their support. I was told today that they are making a list of those who call regarding their love and support for Bro. Steve. They will show this to him and hopefully, lift his heart.
> Thank you.
(name withheld)
What do you think of this?
OK, I can't sit back any longer without saying something regarding the statement "those that don't like Gaines need to leave the church". First of all I've been a member there since 1984, moved away in 1993 and came back in 2004. I came back to Memphis partly because of Bellevue. You can imagine my dismay when I heard Dr. Rogers was retiring. I learned so much from him during all my years. (Even when I was living away, I watched Love Worth Finding.) I knew it would be hard to follow a new pastor, but I knew I could as I have moved around quite a bit in those years away from Memphis and had different pastors. I was one of those that stood for Gaines when he came to the church. I was excited to have a pastor. I believed that the pastor search committee had truly prayed this man into our church. But almost immediately I found Gaines to be very arrogant and not too sure how much I could sit under his preaching. But I was going to give him a chance. Then Dr. Whitmire "retires" so Jamie can be the Minister of Music. I was excited that Jamie was coming to Memphis (I hadn't been under his direction most of his time at Bellevue). But he apparently had been with Gaines too long...he and his wife came back "home" to Bellevue with the same arrogance. I went to the first choir practice with Jamie as the minister of music and was shocked at his speech he gave his new choir. He spoke so poorly of his time at Bellevue and Rogers and sang Gaines praises...I was SHOCKED!!! I'm sure he was trying to help us know how great Gaines was, but it was done in such poor taste...I never went back. (I have been in the choir everytime the doors were opened at Bellevue (even when I lived out of Memphis and came home to visit), and in all the major productions. He stated that he had never learned how to worship in any other church he had ever been in except Gardendale with Gaines. He also stated something about not learning under another preacher except Gaines. (Now I have to wonder if Gaines put him up to it????)
For those of you that say we need to get over it, leave the church because we miss Dr. Rogers...then you aren't hearing what savingbellevue.com is doing or these other blogs!!! It isn't because of Dr. Rogers or because (as the old grandma stated) of the politics or money (I had neither, but still trusted what the church did because of her leader!) it is because of the lack of INTEGRITY!!!
Yeah Gaines had big shoes to fill, but I think he was arrogant enough to think he could fill them and more in a very short time. Gaines doesn't care about Bellevue and her integrity and history, he apparently only cares about Gaines.
Also, all of those that think he is a great preacher...anyone can read the Bible, get on the internet and get understanding about what you are reading, read commentaries, make notes and get up in front of people and preach but not mean a word of what they are preaching or live it! Look at PW for example? He pulled the wool over all our eyes!
Also, if Gaines wants to stay then he needs to confess. He is such a personable person, good personality on stage that he can say anything and people believe him. Gaines says one thing and when he lies, savingbellevue.com is there to set the facts straight. By the way, I also keep hearing that Gaines apologized personally to Whitmire...on good authority I know that isn't true. So, if Gaines will humble himself and admit his sins, then Bellevue as a church could forgive him, keep him accountable for his actions and Bellevue may be able to get back on track. I personally would like to see Gaines gone, but I can forgive and give him another chance if he sincerely and humbly apologizes.
I'm still a member at Bellevue although am assisting at another church. I'm not one of the ones that followed the others to Germantown and I don't want to go to another church, but if I have to I will as the Lord leads. I have a history with Bellevue and have been happy to say I was a member...now I'm embarrassed. I cry when I drive by the three crosses and think of the shame that has been brought to what they represent.
In much prayer for Bellevue and her leadership!
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