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- New BBC Open Forum
- This forum was created to provide a place where those who are seriously concerned about the issues facing Bellevue Baptist Church and the SBC can come to comment and exchange ideas. Anonymous comments are welcome, but it is respectfully requested that instead of choosing the "Anonymous" option those who want to post comments without logging in select a unique screen name. This lets everyone tell the difference between one anon and another without revealing any personal information. Under the box where you compose your comment where it says "Choose an identity," just check "Name/URL" and type in the screen name of your choice. You can leave the URL field blank. It would be helpful if you'd use the same screen name for any subsequent comments. This makes reading and following discussions easier, helps avoid confusion, and doesn't result in one person being credited for writing something s/he didn't. Comments by posters whose only purpose is to disrupt (i.e. trolls) will be subject to deletion. Your cooperation will be appreciated.
300 comments:
1 – 200 of 300 Newer› Newest»no.rumors.please said...
How do you all get time to keep up with all this. I leave for an hour and come back and have to play catch up. Choice, Mom4, Karen, CH, SWTT and others do you ever get off line? :-)
4:21 PM, December 11, 2006
At least certain people have been watched in the past. I know of a man who was asked by Mark Dougharty why he was reading a book during the preaching of Steve Gaines. The man was not sitting on the front row for MD to see. The man told Mark Dougharty he was reading a book. It's called the Bible. He chose to sit and read during the sermons instead of filling in the blanks. Has it come to this now that if you don't fill the blanks in you will be called on the carpet. (at least the carpet will be soft)
4:10 PM, December 11, 2006
Sister Pam,
I agree with you that these issues can't be over just because Steve Gaines says he done.
It seems like Pastor Steve would do good to get with all of the parties he's offended face to face and reconcile. Has anyone out there had the opportunity to sit down face to face with Pastor Steve in the last month and reconcile?
In order for reconciliation to occur, it would be good to notify the church body that these people who have been offended have met with Pastor Steve one by one until there isn't anyone left.
Perhaps then, the church can start the healing process. Until then, the sickness can't be cured until the cause of the sickness is gone.
Swtt,
That carpet comment was inspired--it gave me one of those slap-the-table-and-laugh moments. And, as we all know, there's nothing worse than not-luxurious-enough carpet in your conference room. Gosh, if we could just eliminate that problem around the world, imagine how much suffering we could do away with. It hurts my feet, and sense of human decency, just to think about all that carpet not piled high enough.
JM
Custos,
I detect sarcasm, sir. Are you denying the seminal importance of soft carpet to any man who prances around barefooted while playing his guitar? Think about how rough industrial carpet might irritate that man's bunions.
HEHEHE, financeguy, I DID get the reference to Wingo Starr, and chuckled, but sadly, I did not get the joke about the "man behind the curtain". Although, back in the early 60's my brother and two sisters and I would plan all day to watch the Wizard of Oz when it was shown on one of the networks. That was in the good ol days, before VCR's.
Did i understand you to say that we are no longer have I2 worship for the 18/29 y/o's? Also, do they check your ID at the door? :)
WTB,
Prancing? With guitar? Ohhh, that is not a pretty picture my friend.
*shudders*
But maybe that's why walking around all day on tile and hardwood doesn't bother me--I never prance.
So, WTB, could we take from this that perhaps the worldwide scourge of high-pile, but not high enough piled, carpet would actually not be a problem if we humans modified our behavior. This sounds suspiciously like an argument that could be made about the third world--problems there might change were human behavior in those regions modified. I think we could make that argument successfully.
Now, to bring it full circle: How would the BBC administration do if we dropped them in an unpopulated sub-Saharan region? My prediction is one word: Cleptocracy! (And perhaps continued prancing.) ;-)
Just a little joke folks. I've had a long day and needed a laugh so don't take it too seriously!
Thanks for a great setup WTB,
Josh
I can stand the carpet...and the guitar...just give me some wayfarers and a Hawaiian shirt so the picture will be complete.
oh...and a Starbucks half-caff, and a krispy kreme donut.
and don't forget the pocket edition of PDL
Hey Guys,
For those interested, the Singing Christmas Tree can be streamed tonight also. It starts at 7pm and you fire up the sream by going to
this link and clicking the "Click Here to Watch Now button. Enjoy!
Merry Christmas,
Josh
ez,
No, they are two totally different people.
ezekiel,
Are you familar with Ryan Wingo, the assistant praise and worship?
I was trying to find out if he had already graduated or was in college or seminary somewhere.
I would also be interested to know how old he is.
Just sneaking in to make a quick comment about the surveillance cameras (although I realize that was left on the other thread). As a woman, I appreciate knowing those cameras and security men are there. A few years ago, there was a young man who was a "regular" in the youth group, who was engaging in some stalking-type behavior that made one of our young ladies very uncomfortable. He was approached by security guards and found to have a number of weapons in his possession in a gym bag and was summarily escorted off campus. This same young man's father also attempted to do a little "peeping" at young girls in the SCT cast around the same time -- hence the contingent of big burly men who are now sitting in the middle of the hallways blocking access to those dressing rooms. These two males (the young man with the weapons and his father) are BBC members and not just a couple of pervs who wandered in off I-40. I assure you every time they set foot on the campus, they are being watched to make sure they do no harm to anyone else, and for that I'm grateful.
These incidents happened long before Bro. Steve came to BBC. Talk about an area where church discipline (and perhaps criminal charges) might have been in order. I wonder why that was never done.
mjm
mjm,
I would wonder that as well. What type of weapons were involved? Surely not firearms?
Peeping Tom? Good night, I would have thought that would be enought to have some one in some deep trouble.
mjm,
good question
A loaded pistol and big knives.
mjm,
Wow! That is scary!
How did you find out about it?
I've talked to the young lady he was "stalking" and my son says he has heard the young man brag about having weapons on him at church. He admitted to my son that the scenario, as reported by the young lady, is true. And then HE added the stuff about his father ... which I confirmed with someone who was directly involved in the situation.
AH! Jim Whitmire's there and he's getting a stand ov! Finally a standing ovation I can get behind!
MJM,
I remember that, and I know their names. They were and still are "watched" from the minute they walk in the door until they leave the parking lot, and I for one am glad of it. The entire family is "different". I went on a ladies retreat with a group and the mom of the guys you referenced was talking about "packing" her gun for protection - Some people need to be watched - for OUR protection. On another occassion, a young man walked into the music offices on a Wed night and walked off with a ladies purse. He was ID'd later from the surveilance video (which is not necessarily monitored all the time-but should be in my opinion). We have English is a second language classes and I was in the book store when a lady in full muslim dress, veil and all, came in to take the class. I have nothing against the ministry of trying to reach the lady thru this class, but who is to say that she or another person could not have come in with not so nice motives. Just how much would it take to devastate our church. We have had all kinds of people come in off the interstate, some were wonderful Christians - even former Muslims - and I do not mean to typecast anyone, but WE NEED THE SECURITY AND IN FULL FORCE! In this day and age, prevention is the best security we can have. I believe that most of the older men there are retired police/sheriff's officers and they still know what to look for and some of them may be able to handle themselves pretty well!
So if you security guys are reading this - THANK YOU FOR BEING THERE!!
Brothers and Sisters in Christ…we must follow Dr. Rogers’ lead and reclaim the Southern Baptist Convention. Please read the following in its entirety. You will want to follow up on these links posted here as well. Your present pastor and thousands like him have fallen prey to this hypocrisy and the churches are in a state of apostasy because of it. Thank you for reading/listening…
I ask all of you…please do not let Dr. Rogers’ work be in vain. Please let his church take the lead in bringing this apostasy to an end! You have an opportunity to shine in the name of Jesus. The world is watching you.
Thanks again…
____________________________________________________
“Just as Pastor Ken Silva (http://www.apprising.org/) has been warning, the Southern Baptist Convention has now openly embraced the emerging church by featuring one of its leaders, Erwin McManus, on the cover of its magazine. Here's the story from Brannon Howse today.” (this segment taken from http://sliceoflaodicea.com/)
The article Southern Baptist Convention Embraces the Emerging Church in a Cover Story is taken from: http://www.worldviewweekend.com/secure/cwnetwork/print.php?&ArticleID=13 Following is the full story:
“I am sad to say that the Southern Baptist Convention is on its way back to liberal land. Some of you may remember several years ago when Dr. Adrian Rogers and others were successful at reclaiming the SBC from the liberals. Well, it looks like the time has come to clean house again …
One of America's Emerging Church leaders is Erwin McManus. Erwin is an author as well as pastor of a Los Angeles church called Mosaic. Erwin is featured on the front cover of the SBC magazine, HomeLife. Inside the December issue is a puff piece that pushes Erwin and his church and books as something to be admired and read. Mosaic is reported to be a member of the Southern Baptist Convention.”
Erwin does not appear to be as extreme as Brian McLaren and the Emergent group. Erwin does defend some essential Biblical doctrines. However, Erwin is promoting Emerging Church philosophies by promoting the merging of Christianity with mysticism. In his book, The Barbarian Way Erwin R. McManus writes (emphasis mine):
"Somehow Christianity has become a non-mystical religion. It's about the reasonable faith. If we believe the right things then we are orthodox. To know God in the Scripture always went beyond information to intimacy. We may find ourselves uncomfortable with this reality; but the faith of the Scriptures is a mystical faith. It leads us beyond the material into an invisible reality." (p. 60-61)
"We are mystic warriors who use weapons not of this world." (p. 109)
According to Webster's dictionary, mystical is "having a spiritual meaning or reality that is neither apparent to the senses nor obvious to the intelligence." Webster's dictionary defines mysticism as "vague speculation, a belief without sound basis."
Biblical Christianity requires intelligent thought and reasoning. In fact, Jesus said, "seek and ye shall find." I don't find Biblical Christianity to be based on vague speculation without sound basis, do you? Biblical Christianity is not mystical, and I am not a mystic warrior, are you?
This promotion of mysticism is also on the website of Erwin's church which is called the Mosaic. Erwin has symbols used by various other religions to describe the beliefs of their church. These symbols include Earth, Wind, Fire, Water, and Wood. The symbol for water is the same symbol of the Yin and Yang which is a Chinese symbol associated with Tai Chi, a form of martial arts.
I was further shocked when I visited Erwin's church website and played a short video clip on his sermon series. The background music was a song by the vulgar rapper Eminem entitled "Lose Yourself." The song plays for about 36 seconds and it is a good thing. When I looked up the words to the song and read them, I found that Eminem takes God's name in vain and it is connected to a swear word, and he uses a four letter word that starts with an F. Why would a church and pastor use a song by Eminem as the soundtrack to promote his upcoming sermon series? Does Pastor Erwin not see anything wrong with the music or worldview of Eminem?
Ephesians 5:11 says, "And have no fellowship with the unfruitful works of darkness but, rather reprove them."
In order to reach the lost are we to mix Christianity with mysticism and use the music of a blasphemous, vulgar rapper? Is this what it takes to be cutting edge, relevant, cool, and postmodern?
Essentially a manmade worldview and religion, Emerging Church teachings have also alarmed author and talk-…relies heavily on mysticism, a great danger to believers of all denominations. Some leaders will tell you that you cannot know truth. An EC service will often meet in homes, and will rely on extra-biblical paraphernalia, extra-sensory images, sounds, smells of candles and incense, silence, mystical meditation, making the sign of the cross, touching icons, statues of saints, rosary beads for Protestants, liturgy, yoga-like deep breathing, contemplative prayer, and sacraments-all for a full sensory immersion with the divine. In other words, they are looking for an encounter with the Lord using all their senses. Worship is stressed, but some would say more than the Word. show host Jan Markell. Jan perhaps describes it as well as anyone. The Emerging Church, she writes:
Concerning the Emerging Church, the president of the SBC wrote this in response to an open letter written by some concerned members of the SBC. President Page wrote:
When I encouraged the involvement of emerging churches and leaders, I was referring only to those whose message and methodologies which are biblically based. When I made that statement, I was referring to the emerging churches of which I had at that time become aware. I was referring to a group of young leaders in churches who were reaching the lost with the clear message of Christ. They are biblically sound in both message and methodology. The groups, pastors, and churches to which you refer are obviously not among the group to which I refer. I do believe that there are ways to be relevant in today's culture without sacrificing the very clear commands of Christ.
Why has President Page allowed for Emerging Church leader Erwin McManus to be on the cover of HomeLife? Why is the magazine pushing Erwin’s books and website with a puff piece? Does President Page agree with Erwin’s worldview and methodology? If President Page does agree with Erwin’s theology and methodology then he should say so and we can all be clear where he stands and the mistake that was made in electing him President of the SBC. If he does not agree then he should put out such a public statement and fire the Emerging Church disciples helping him lead the SBC. Dr. Page should also fire the individuals responsible for pushing Erwin McManus and his theology and methodology to thousands of SBC churches and families in the HomeLife magazine. The ball is in the court of President Page. We are waiting to see he does because actions speak louder than words.
Why would any Christian want to mix Christianity with mysticism? Why would a Christian minister mix truth with evil? Why has it become more important to look like the world than to be set apart? Why is it about appearing culturally relevant rather than Biblically committed? Why is it about making people comfortable rather than convicted? Why is it about being ecumenical instead of evangelical? Why is the sound of the music more important than sound doctrine? Why is the focus on a mystical Christianity instead of a Biblical Christianity?
It is beyond me how the SBC can justify being involved in promoting the EC Movement when it is so clearly unbiblical is so many ways. What would Dr. Rogers say and do if he were still here with us?
Colossians 2:8 we read, "Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of the world and not after Christ."
Additional Information:
Erwin's Church, Mosaic:
http://www.mosaic.org/
Distributed by www.ChristianWorldviewNetwork.com
maybejustmaybe wrote:
"He was approached by security guards and found to have a number of weapons in his possession in a gym bag and was summarily escorted off campus. This same young man's father also attempted to do a little "peeping" at young girls in the SCT cast around the same time -- hence the contingent of big burly men who are now sitting in the middle of the hallways blocking access to those dressing rooms. These two males (the young man with the weapons and his father) are BBC members and not just a couple of pervs who wandered in off I-40. I assure you every time they set foot on the campus, they are being watched to make sure they do no harm to anyone else, and for that I'm grateful."
Why would these two nuts not be arrested on the spot, and even more important, why in the world are they still allowed to set foot on church property and walk among us??? There is no excuse for this. I don't care how closely they're being watched! This is just irresponsible and wrong!
imaresister,
this mysticism is really nothing new...it's gnosticism repackaged.
mjm,
I remember that - I also posted on the other thread that the reason we have security guards now is that they started in midtown after Dr. Rogers was attacked. I was in 4th grade and my dad was out of town. Mom was in choir so I was sitting in "big church" by myself when this dude took a flying leap onto the platform. Quite the scary experience for a 10 year old.
ezekiel said...
Hey guys, I had a question posed to me today. "Is Sonny Tucker the same as Steve Tucker"?
6:36 PM, December 11, 2006
ezekiel, FYI, Sonny Tucker was a big bald headed dude with a great laugh. If you've read Colin Powell's book, Sonny is mentioned (I think by name).
Karen
nbbcof,
I agree completely. From what I heard, there were those in the church that felt that they needed help (DUH!), I felt that they should have been helped out the door and banned from entering at all 9aside from attending counseling. Some of the problems were that they had 3 other younger children that were in classes at BBC, somewhat normal children I may add. I haven't seen them in a long while, so they may have been given the boot, but I bet every security guard there has their pictures!
Karen,
Also, Sonny Tucker is an infamous Vietnam War Vet and speaks regularly on the 4th of July. He has a BFC class of Seniors (or he did at one time) and is a wonderful, gentle man. Dr Rogers allowed him to speak many times and he was a good friend to Dr Rogers.
- Now, Steve is another story as we all know, but I do not know if the 2 are related?? Does anyone know?
Anybody that wants to investigate the "ignore the man behind the curtain" remark made earlier..."The Wizard of Oz" is on TNT right now. :)
Karen
karen,
enter the paper tiger..all growl and no bite.
aog,
you need a latte, buddy!
Karen
AOG said:
"this mysticism is really nothing new...it's gnosticism repackaged."
Yes, I understand that. Did you read this article? This is new age and it has crept into our churches along with the church growth movements. It is on the front cover of December's HomeLife...thousands of these magazines are distributed every month to members of SBC. This is very serious. I love Bellevue, I loved Adrian Rogers, I love Jesus Christ... I pray this will be taken in the context in which I posted here.
karen,
lol...i'm having a cup of seattle's best as we ...type
imaresistor,
yes i read it...i keep up with the latest trends in the SBC..this has been going on a while...i read an article some time back about a youth camp at Ridgecrest where the camp pastor lead the youth in a "centering" prayer...when the responsible party at Lifeway who puts the youth camps together was confronted about it...he just said he was sorry if anyone was offended but he could find nothing wrong with it...i can't remember all that was recorded (prayer), but it was very new age stuff....scary
imaresistor,
That article scared me in a way - I lived in the Los Angeles area and San Diego area for the better part of ten years. I met some seriously "unchurched" young people out there. On the surface, I can see the need to express church views in the way Mosaic does, but I'm not infomed enough to see it deeper (thanks for the inspiration to look deeper). The "whatever gets them in the door" approach may work and be fine in the more "liberal" states, ie., California and New York, but this being the "Bible belt" I can see how this approach would bother people. I'm on the fence on this one, but will investigate on my own. Thanks for bringing this up.
Karen
I wondered what was going on the evening of the 9/24 "information meeting." There were security people visible everywhere. Steve Gaines was standing down front talking with people afterwards, and there was a crowd of a hundred or so people waiting to speak with him. As we walked past him, he was smiling and talking with a little girl, then leaned over and asked her if she'd give him a hug. Just as he leaned down and she eagerly reached up to embrace him, a man walked up and said something to him. All I heard was the word "security." The smile instantly drained from his face, he immediately stood up, and he had that same look President Reagan did when he was shot. Without another word to the child or anyone else, he turned away and two men quickly escorted him out of the auditorium, leaving all those people standing there still waiting to speak with him. What was up with that?
the only thing that really "works" is the gospel contained in the Holy Scriptures...iconism, mysticism and the like are forbidden by scripture.
AOG...thank you for responding. This is scary stuff! Any suggestions on how we can get this out of the SBC? It must come out. We don't have Dr. Rogers to do it for us this time. This is the very stuff that our serminary students are being taught and it has been going on for a long time. Our Sunday School books are full of it. I found in one of my books that the author of the lessons for that quarter was by one of the pastors at Saddleback. I nearly stroked out...
This madness has got to stop! And it has to start somewhere.There are many discernment ministries out there fighting all of this...but they need help.
Thoughts?
the best defense is to have one's spiritual senses trained by Scripture...knowing God's word is our best defense...only when we know the truth can we spot error and heresy...can we get it out?...the SBC is a voluntary association of churches..not a heirarchy...only in terms of the local body can we keep it out...although the higher ups in the SBC leadership should have better discernment than to allow association with churches who practice what is forbidden by scripture. But such is a sign of the times we are in. The Lord warned us of these things...now they are with us...God is shaking His church...it's going to become tough to be a true Bible-believing orthodox Christian...Christ is shaking the wrinkles out of his bride.
Karen...
You are most welcome. Didn't mean to frighten you. When I first started catching on to all of this, it freaked me out. I am SO offended to any attack on my Saviour. The Bible tells us we must study to shew ourselves approved. And this is what we must do. Jesus Christ is being totally abused...and as His children we must do everything we can to stop it.
Start reading Karen...there is much to learn. Educated yourself so you will know...
AOG said...
"a youth camp at Ridgecrest where the camp pastor lead the youth in a "centering" prayer...when the responsible party at Lifeway who puts the youth camps together was confronted about it...he just said he was sorry if anyone was offended but he could find nothing wrong with it..."
Yes All of Grace...it is my experience that normally these movements are started with our youth. Parents really need to monitor what is going on in their children's church life. Sad...oh! so sad, but oh so true! In my church, the youth had been taken through the 40 days of purpose and we didn't even know it! Please pay attention. It is good to know that you are watching and educating yourself on all of this.
imaresistor,
that's kind of my thing....watching for the wolves.
Someone earlier asked about Ryan Wingo. Try "googling" his name. . very interesting.
ez,
amen...my mentor always would tell me...brother..it's the word the word the word..let it be the last thing you put down at night, and the first thing you pick up in the morning.
well there's at least one!! (smile)
imaresistor,
If I had to pick a man that I personally felt was capable of leading the SBC in the direction that it should be lead, then it would be Ken Whitten. There are probably quite a few others, but this fellow came up in Bellevue from a long way back and he has the backbone to take on a mountain lion if he needs to.
ez,
actually there's many as a result of his ministry..he's a discipler of men. been doing it a long time.
AOG said...
"that's kind of my thing....watching for the wolves. "
You are exactly right! And sounds as though you are good at it. The problem lies wherein there are those who are not. The problem also lies, in my opinion, that people are not well read on the Scriptures. These two actually go hand in hand. Then there are discerners...and I must say sounds like you might have a gift in this area.
abc,
I googled earlier on Ryan Wingo. It was interesting. Nothing that I saw wrong with anything. I listen to contemporary Christian music all the time. You know at one point in time the hymns from a 100 years ago were contemporary.
I still prefer traditional worship services however. Having been at Bellevue for over 20 yrs, I saw the orchestra grow from nothing and I grew to really appreciate the music.
imaresistor,
i just had a good teacher...steeped in the word...the brother who led me to the Lord took me under his wing..we met every friday or saturday night for 3 years till i got my spiritual legs under me...the most important thing he taught me was how to study the Bible....he also let me raid his extensive library on a regular basis.
Perhaps the biggest problem that I see with i2 is that it appears that it is becoming a replacement for a Sunday worship service. I enjoy almost all types of music, so the style is not an issue, but worship is more than pure entertainment.
tim,
my biggest problem with it, is that it divides the worship of the church...i don't see a Biblcial warrant for that.
it creates a church within a church.
Tim said, "has the backbone to take on a mountain lion if "
Tim...the condition that the SBC is in will require somebody with the skill to take on a mountain lion. How could this have come so far from the teachings of Christ? Do you folks think we come anywhere near to being what God expects us to be? Now before you say it...I know that we all fall short of the glory of God. That is not what I am talking about. I mean the state that the church is in today...the entertainment, our form of witnessing, etc...all of it.
allofgrace,
True, I'm with you on that. I have been doing a lot of thinking and studying of the New Testament church, recently. (Wonder why.)
One of the things that suddenly occured to me is that the New Testament church did not divide out into age groups. It struck me as very interesting and thought wouldn't it be cool to be in a class that had some folks like say, Sonny Tucker in it and also some like Ryan Wingo. I hate to even use the term perspective, because it doesn't sound like a Biblical term, but a class like that would be awesome. I think a better word than perspective would be balance and I believe that the Word teaches balance in all things.
tim,
what you described is the biblical pattern for the church.
imaresistor,
old errors and heresies never die..they just morph. much of what we see in the church today is a result of the German higher criticism of the fundamentalist/modernist controversy, and Finneyism.
choice,
i make a distinction between age graded worship services and SS classes..when we gather for worship...it should be as one body. imho of course.
tim wrote:
"Perhaps the biggest problem that I see with i2 is that it appears that it is becoming a replacement for a Sunday worship service."
The biggest problem I've heard about it is that for some in attendance, it's become a substitute for parking at Lookout Point on a Friday night! They have to go through the building and lock classroom doors and patrol the restrooms because they've reportedly found some youthful couples in uh... how shall I put this delicately, some very compromising situations. This isn't the high school prom. It's church, for pete's sake!
LOVE WORTH FINDING UPDATE
The LWF ministry needs to receive $1,677,320. before December 31 in order to start 2007 on a strong foot. Bellevue Baptist Church has been a large contributor to LWF in the past, but I, personally, have only recently begun to give to them on a more substantial basis. I was curious if BBC had been donating since the death of Dr. Rogers since the $1.6 million sounded sort of large.
After inquiring from LWF, I am fairly comfortable that BBC, as of April, 2006, has still been contributing to LWF. The staff at LWF will not know until approximately April, 2007 (Bellevue's new annual budget time), whether or not LWF will still be receiving a donation from BBC. Hopefully, they will and I think we should encourage this.
If you would like to help out with the continuing ministry of Dr. Adrian Rogers, you can donate at the following web address:
www.lwf.org
I do not work for Love Worth Finding, but I sure do enjoy seeing Dr. Rogers on television and hearing him every morning on Christian radio. It would be extremely sad if his LWF ministry ever had to go off the air due to lack of funding.
Thank you,
Dee
nass,
the worst part is...these are 18-29 yr olds...quite an age spread for one thing...and they're supposed to be adults for cryin out loud...time to worship with the grown-ups.
2006huldah,
thanks for the updated info.
choice,
you're not rude....i was referring mostly to dividing by age...not 2 services...although it would be nice if we could gather in one.
NBBCOF...
Amen and amen! Heard somebody say recently that the church has become worldly and that the world has become churchly. Worst part of this is...it has reached the point that one can't distinguish one from the other.
I'm with you...
allofgrace wrote:
"the worst part is...these are 18-29 yr olds...quite an age spread for one thing...and they're supposed to be adults for cryin out loud...time to worship with the grown-ups."
With all due respect, I think what I'm talking about is worse! But I agree with everything else you said. I don't think it hurts the younger kids to come to "big church" either. It seems like they have to be "entertained" now.
NASS,
I didn't realize that there were other problems being created by getting the adrenline going in this age group. On second thought it probably is a poor idea.
Allofgrace,
It does like since they have put the pampers awy some time ago that they would be ready to sit at the big table. I have seen some of these type "services" and I really believe that they more closely resemble a concert only a bit more interactive.
It bothers me when the church starts promoting worship as being an emotional experience. Worship is to be in spirit and truth, sometimes that may involve emotions, but most of the time it will not.
tim,
agreed...worship is for the Lord..not to entertain us.
nass,
lol...i'm bad about using the phrase, "and the worst part is"...my intent wasn't to minimize or give subordinance to what you said...considering the spread in age...and as tim put it...adrenaline driven entertainment..it's what can be expected.
Just a side note on worship being promoted as an emotional experience. This is why I don't like the praise team. I don't like having a song or two in every service that you are compelled to clap your hands or some other hand motion. Sometimes I like to meditate in my spirit on the words that are being sung, quietly and reverently. Has any one been able to do that in a song service at Bellevue recently?
It is odd that someone had to leave Bellevue to learn how to worship and came back to teach us how it is to be done and now it is virtually impossible to do.
tim,
you hit the nail on the head...and no..i haven't been able to do that for a while
Does Jamie Parker have any role in the i2 "service'?
imho, the music portion of worship should be scripture driven...given the differing types of literature, and differing modes of the scriptures it would seem the songs should include celebration, thanksgiving, adoration, reflection, lamentation, wonder, awe, focus on His attributes and perfections, etc.
NBBCOF..."I don't think it hurts the younger kids to come to "big church" either. It seems like they have to be "entertained" now. "
So...how did this all happen anyway? I grew up sitting with the adults in church. Nobody gave two thoughts about entertaing the kids! We were taught to revere God...and that was it. When did it all get so turned around that the kids are the gods and we should be entertaining them...that they should be catered to? I don't mean to be harsh, but we need to be teaching our children respect. It has gotten so out of hand!
Tim..."It bothers me when the church starts promoting worship as being an emotional experience. "
Truly, the only emotional experience I am interested in being displayed in church is when one is fighting back the tears because they have just accepted Jesus Christ as their personal savior. We don't need to display anything, other than that, which will bring attention to ourselves. Do we?
Does Bellevue need 4 full time music minsters?
I mean, what do they do all day long?
Can any member ask for their schedule?
What could all 4 men do all day long?
Does any staff go on out and visit members, sick, visitors during the week?
Which daughter of Steve Gaines' is Ryan Wingo dating?
I thought that was interesting. I a also can't quite see how Ryan, who I believe is orignally from Memphis, wound up in Gardendale, AL. Then when Steve Gaines came back to Memphis he trailed along as part of the crew. Was it just a coincedence that Ryan was in Alabama? I wondered about that earlier today. I don't know if many folks are aware of it but I believe that Harry Smith is from Sheffield, AL. As much as his name crops up in everything, I wondered if there was a connection here as well.
oldtimer,
I have no idea...good question.
I'm sorry, I am told we have at leasy 5 full time music minsters.
allofgrace,
Try this one on.
As a member can we get the job description of everyone on staff from the Pastor to the clerks?
Has anyone heard if Harry Smith ever announced who the person is behind the "no talk" document that Bellevue is asking anyone leaving to sign? I remember at the CC meeting, he said he didn't have a clue who was behind it. Dr. Rogers never had any minister that was leaving sign the "no talk" document.
What is going on inside the walls of Bellevue that the congregation or the world doesn't need to know? I think there is a lot of information we don't know but need to know for them to go to this much extreme to silence people.
Does anyone know which Bible Fellowship Class Harry Smith goes to? Let's go to his class Sunday and sit with him and ask him very politely each Sunday until he admits that he (I'm sorry, I meant to say Pastor Steve) is behind this document. It sounds a lot like a document that could have been used in his car business.
This is a serious question that doesn't need to be forgotten. We need an answer to this. If anyone has information on this, please let us know.
If you listen to the audio found on savingbellevue.com , it sounds like Harry Smith is being less than honest to a whole lot of folks. The scary part is that he did it so naturally. As the chairman of this committee, his behavior bothers me a great deal.
When is the next Communications Committee meeting?
did anyone ever get the Church to say when the next business meeting is? Let's keep calling until we get the answer. Maybe the Chairman of the Deacons would tell us.
oldtimer,
Not sure about that one...on bellevue.org..there's a list of staff people with the title of their position..but no job description...no details anyhow...i don't know if you can get that info...seeing how little we can get on other issues.
imaresistor,
When we start catering to any group with entertainment (better known as amusement), then do we really wind up being a church anymore. It makes you wonder if our churches are not becoming social clubs. Of course our most recent donations support the fact that we have become a civic club, but that's another issue.
One of the original spins that was put on the "disgruntled" members was that it was a style issue related to the music service. The idea is that we should be chastised because there was not a Biblical mandate for style. I was doing a little Bible study earlier this week and ran into a Hebrew word that debuncts that thinking. The word is HogWash.
swtt,
No more CC meetings
tim,
excellent exegesis!!!
tim,
the absence of a Biblical mandate i think can be found in the book of Speculations 2:1..or maybe it's Hesitations 2:1...i forget.
Tim said...hogwash. :)
That word could easily be turned around to suit the accusors, don't you think? I like that word...hogwash.
Tim
His oldest who at Union. A bit of age difference.
Allofgrace,
We need to ask who decides when the next business meeting is?
Linda Glance in the pastors office should be able to help with this.
Maybe we should email every deacon officer, staff, board of directors, until we have an answer.
oldtimer,
might work...has anyone asked a deacon or committee member about that lately?
allofgrace,
LOL! There are some things that are spiritually mandated.
The Lord didn't accept Cain's offering sacrifice. Worship is a sacrifice of praise. Does the Lord accept all worship? I think not.
Don Ware requested in writing to Bruce Brook for a business meeting. Our bylaws require Bellevue to abide by this request. Bruce Brook has ignored the written request other than Bruce leaning over in BFC to Don Ware as he wispered "there aint going to be a meeting".
So there you have it. Bruce Brook is now the man who is calling whether Bellevue holds a business meeting or not. Who is Bruce Brook? I've been told he may hold the keys to the vault at Bellevue. Does anyone know if he is a deacon?
Allofgrace,
I don't think so. This may indeed be the best way to get the answers.
Chuck T. did say if you have any questions to ask.
tim,
of course those 2 books can only be found in "The Message"...jk
swtt,
the name doesn't ring a bell with me.
oldtimer,
true that's what he said...unfortunately if that works anything like the CC...expect "i don't know", blank stare, or "you'll have to ask so and so"...of course so and so won't know either.
Tim said
"makes you wonder if our churches are not becoming social clubs"
They are not 'becoming' social clubs...they have been social clubs for a long time. Do you think the focus of the body of Christ is really where it is supposed to be? I have been dealing with this question for a long time. In the meantime, this church growth movement comes into our churches under the radar like a stealth bomber. I woke up one day and realized that we are all missing the mark. I feel such a desperation to correct all the wrong we are doing to our Savior...I am truly ashamed for all of us...all the Christians. I am speaking for myself...I realize there are those who don't agree with me. But I pray there are those.
allofgrace,
Are you serious? I thought they were just taking time off for the Holidays.
Surely they are going to start back up after January 1st.
There are so many unanswered or unsettled questions out there along with the many more new ones created by the old ones.
swtt,
I wish I wasn't serious...Harry Smith announced last Sunday night that their work was completed.
Something that I haven't thought about in quite a while, but seems to come to my memory.
Harry Smith was originally from Sheffield, AL, if my memory is correct. Also, unless I am mistaken, I believe that He transferred His membership to Bellevue from another denomination. It might have been Presbyterian. I really don't remember though. Maybe someone else will know. It might help shed some more light on this mess.
Everyone should call Bruce Brook at home, work, email, mail telegram, morris code or whatever. Let's put him to the test and ask for answers.
his information is on savingbellevue under church government, i think.
To "imaresistor":
I agree with you %100 on the fact that our churches have become "social clubs" and that we need to correct it.
Dee
aog,
According to Steve the music is all "scriptural" and has been prayed over and none of us esp. those of us in choir were supposed to say anything against it. I think my friend said his exact words when he first came were to "zip it." Also the seniors were put on a guilt trip because who wouldn't want their grandchildren in the service listening to this new wonderful music???? Who doesn't want their grandchildren to be saved?
Tim,
As far as Jamie going to AL to learn to worship, it looked to me like he was brainwashed when he returned. Steve came in the choir room one night to show us how to raise our hands and Jamie's face turned red and he giggled like a school girl the whole time Steve was in there.
Diana
Correction on my last post:
100%
I was writing about money right before this one. Sorry. I'm gettin' a little old.
Dee
P.S. Man, I knew something didn't look right with that %100...
2006hulda,
haha...i know what you mean...we got it anyhow.
diana hart,
the "gospel according to Steve"
aog,
Well that is the root of the problem isn't it? Welcome back to your area of expertise. I liked the new books of the Message. I hesitate to call it a Bible.
DH
tim wrote:
"One of the original spins that was put on the "disgruntled" members was that it was a style issue related to the music service. The idea is that we should be chastised because there was not a Biblical mandate for style. I was doing a little Bible study earlier this week and ran into a Hebrew word that debuncts that thinking. The word is HogWash."
Or "baloney" in Greek.
Bruce Brooke is on the board of directors. I do not know if he is a deacon or not.
I am fed up with the administration if it's true that the church is done answering questions. How can we go forward when we've gone backwards for the past several months with no answers to anything? Just because a few men say they are done doesn't mean it's over. Come January 1, we have got to demand answers and stop taking this.
I'm sorry if I seem a bit upset but I just can't help it tonight.
I'm convinced that what little we know is nothing but a fraction of what we don't know. If these men are going to be this arrogant to the membership of our Bellevue Baptist Church with secrets, we have got to do whatever it takes to break down the walls and find out what's going on behind them.
I hate to say it, but I think the law of the land is on our side.
nass, tim,
you guys have great mastery of the languages...i like it.
diana hart,
I'm no expert...some of this stuff is so blatant it doesn't require expertise...just eyes and ears.
diana hart,
oh yea..and you have to be breathing...but I think even the dead could see some of this stuff.
huldah said:
"I agree with you %100 on the fact that our churches have become "social clubs" and that we need to correct it."
I read on Slice of Laodicea just a couple of days ago about this very thing. The post from people everywhere were incredible. This one girl said she felt rejected because she wore Wal-Mart skirts and carried a cardboard Bible. She said she couldn't keep up with the more fortunate and just quit going because she felt they were disgruntled with her. On another note, there are many that are 'home' churching all over the country now due to all this purpose driven dribble...so many people will not accept the watered down version of the Bible. I won't accept it...no way. Felt needs sermons, etc. Uh uh. Not for me. And if I want nightclub entertainment, I will go to a nightclub. (which I won't and don't). Thanks for standing for Jesus.
disillusioned
nhisname,
Who should we ask concerning a business meeting?
diana hart,
If you're still here...I noticed the NLT was quoted from Sunday morning...sign of things to come?
I honestly do not know. I don't think at this time anyone will let us have a business meeting unless it is kept a secret until the night of the meeting. They do not want us to have a business meeting, but the bylaws require a meeting before the end of the year to elect new directors. At least that is the way I read them.
nhisname,
It's my understanding that according to Tenn. law, a 501c3 non-profit has to hold at least 1 business meeting/yr.
Diana said:
"Steve came in the choir room one night to show us how to raise our hands and Jamie's face turned red and he giggled like a school girl the whole time Steve was in there."
To show you how to raise your hands? Come on...you must be kidding... Is he trying to shape and mold you people?
nhisname said:
"the bylaws require a meeting before the end of the year to elect new directors"
Is it possible they have changed the bylaws? Have they already mentioned the bylaws and constitution. You have a long range planning committee don't you? What are they doing?
fedeup..
my point was that Steve Gaines tells another half-truth when he gets up in the pulpit and insists that he does not belive in a contemporary, but a "blended" service, because he doesn't want to split the congregation, and then he goes right ahead and has the separate service, that he insists he is not having! It's just not on Sunday, the traditional "church" day. I don't know this, but I'd be willing to bet was some of the issues Rob Mullins was having with the Pastor. His lack of integrity on the issue.
Harry Smith is in the 8 AM Charlie Brand class.
I met Bruce Brooke, he was on a mission trip with the youth a few years ago.
I personally believe that there is another set of bylaws that the church didn't disclose to us. IMHO. Pure speculation, no proof. I just don't see how in the world that NOBODY updated the bylaws.
financeguy,
I brought that up once before...pretty slick plan huh? He makes many "accurate" statements...but doesn't tell the whole truth...just like a politician.
allofgrace
Yes it does but they are trying to say that we had a couple of business meeting this year already. Once when we approved messengers to the convention and I don't remember what the other time was. They wern't really business meetings bu tthe congregation "voted" and that qualifies as a business meeting. The greek word for that is "hogwash"
charis,
If they have another set of by-laws and did not deliver them upon request, then they are in violation of the law.
Is it possible that this has been done? Highly! These fellows have put themselves above the laws of God so what difference would governmental laws mean to them.
charis...
RE the bylaws - or lack thereof -
I suspected the same and have been checking around to see what we could be missing. I honestly believe the leadership has made one too many "mistakes of the mind" to be legal!
They have said that the bylaws have not been updated since they were written in 1929
nhisname,
well ain't that just ducky...you guys are masters at this greek thing (wink)
fedeup....
I had another thought. It's another example of him saying "pay no attention to what I'm doing, only pay attention to what I say I'm doing".
Really starting to tick me off that "they" think i'm so stupid I do see through it.
Well this Greek "expert" Is going to knock it off for tonight and get some sleep.
Gnite All
I sure hope Charlie Brand has a talk with Harry Smith. I'm not sure what Charlie is going to be teaching on Sunday, but I could give him a few ideas.
When is this country club atmosphere going to end? Can we be ignored that easily? I don't care if I'm all by myself, I'm not going to stop fighting for truth if I'm all by myself which I know isn't the case because of the wonderful folks that take the time to write on this blog. I praise the Lord for each one of you. Even though I don't know you by name, I love you in the name of Jesus and pray that God gives us the Grace to continue to stand for righteousness even if it takes 10 years.
May the Lord give you a good night of rest.
Good night!
finance guy,
I agree..we're all fed up with it.
swtt
If you listen to the audio found on savingbellevue.com , it sounds like Harry Smith is being less than honest to a whole lot of folks. The scary part is that he did it so naturally. As the chairman of this committee, his behavior bothers me a great deal.
I was in that service, and if ever a man was acting guilty it was him. "Cotton mouth" and eyes darting around, as they say "nervous as a cat in a room full of rocking chairs".
I spoke with two people that had been in the deacons meeting he had just come out of, and they said he did not accurratly represent what had gone on in there.
Question that has never to my knowleged been answered. Why didn't David Coombs get up and speak that night as well, like we had been told he would?
One last comment. Don't hold your breath waiting for Charlie Brand to say anything that might set Harry Smith straight. I saw and heard him at one of the CC meetings. He was just there to praise the leadership and let us know that he did not agree with us.
Is there any truth that SG sent someone to intimidate Dr. Spradlin, or is this just rumor?
It seems as if many of the members with the most "position" like to keep it that way by supporting the pastor and the current regime. (Many, not all)
Just an observation.
Pray that the bride will not be pleasers of men.
nhisname wrote:
"They wern't really business meetings bu tthe congregation "voted" and that qualifies as a business meeting. The greek word for that is 'hogwash'"
No, the Greek word is "baloney." The Hebrew word is "hogwash." Of course, I can't say what the English word is. My mama would wash my mouth out with Lifebuoy soap.
NBBCOF...
"My mama would wash my mouth out with Lifebuoy soap. "
...and rightfully so!
G'night!
rod..
SG sent SG to intimidate Mike Spradlin. There's an almost funny story about that, but I"d probably not share it here, as it would break a confidence. I don't think SG was successful in doing anything other than ticking him off though.
It's been such a relief the past two days to realise I can get Mike Spradlins sermons at GBC off a podcast. Finally, sermons I can sink my teeth in.
Has anyone else heard that "someone" presumably Chuck Taylor and the Saddlemaker tried to get Dr. Spradlin to say that SG was the "best preacher ever", and he told them to "get lost", (or words to that effect)?
Email me the true story on that if you've heard.
To all,
Mrs FinanceGuy suggested that if you are having a hard time with the Wizard of Oz reference, perhaps you will understand a "Winnie the Pooh" reference'. It's a song, so it's gonna be hard to to justice here, but imagine Winnie the Pooh, covered in mud, floating up while holding a blue balloon, trying to make a move on some honey in a bee's nest in a tree. The song goes something like this
"I'm just a little black raincloud, pay no attention to meeeeeeeee"......"Everyone knows that raiiiiinnncloudddd, is harmless, as harmless, as it can beeeeee....."
Anyway, that should help everyone get the point now about the "right hand left hand" modus operindi of the Pastor.
Financeguy,
Stoppit! Knowing both you and Mrs. Financeguy, I'm having a hard time with the visual...
CH, I finally replied to your email. Thanks
lol, I guess I'll stop now. I guess i'm getting a little silly due to the hour. It's a good movie though everyone should watch it, even if you don't have preschoolers in your house!
Now, I've got to go do all the work I didn't do while participating in this discussion today.
Good night!
Steve Gaines sent Chuck Taylor and Steve Tucker to "counsel" Dr. Spradlin. What a joke! I don't think it worked out too well for them.
Steve also tried to bribe (my word) Dr. Spradlin by offering to help him gain status and position within the SBC.
After the MABTS takeover attempt, Dr. Spradlin was able to oust Harry Smith from the board. I believe Rex Jones (Harry's son-in-law) is out too.
Just putting togther pieces of what I've heard, it looks like SG sent the two guys that keep seeming to show up everywhere over to try to talk some sense into Dr. Spradlin, Spradlin sends them packing (Someone should ask the defunct CC if Steve Tucker and Chuck Taylor have ever been rebuked in the name of Jesus by a SB Seminary president. Just curious of course).
SG then goes by himself and tries the "old buddy buddy" approach. It's disturbing to think that he might have taken Mike Spradlin to the top of the mountain and said "all this can be yours if you will just follow my lead". Good for him if it's true, and Dr. Spradlin resisted.
It's very clear to me that SG's vision of himself is Pastor of BBC, and President of MABTS resulting ina very prominat role in the SBC. (This also fits all the speaking engagements.) There's teaching in scripture about he who would be great, let him be servant of all. Bellevue knows what that man looks like. We saw him twice. R.G.Lee and Adrian Rogers.
Anyone has Dr. Alison's ear, tell him that we are praying for him and Dr. Spradlin.
StumblingServant,
Why "discipline" Dr Spradlin? He's one of the only people at Bellevue who could directly challange Gaines. As such, he's a potential threat and it's possible they felt the need to get him on their team or at least keep him quiet if he didn't approve.
There's more to this, and they had exchaged words before the "visit," but I don't have it firsthand (hint about whom you should ask!) so I'll refrain.
JM
Good Morning All - and it IS a good morning. I get LWF devotions every day and this one applies so well to the situation at BBC - hope you get blessed!
December 12
BIBLE MEDITATION:
“How that in a great trial of affliction the abundance of their joy and their deep poverty abounded unto the riches of their liberality.” 2 Corinthians 8:2
DEVOTIONAL TREASURE:
A man watched a butterfly trying to emerge from a cocoon. Thinking that he would help, the man took his pen knife and slit the side of the cocoon and the butterfly flopped out. It lay there for a while, feebly beating it’s wings, then collapsed and died. “How tragic,” you say, and you are right because God had a plan for that butterfly. The struggle to break free built the strength he would need to fly. God doesn’t want you to live weakly and to die feebly. He wants you to grow and mature.
ACTION POINT:
Find the wings in your trial today. Strengthen them by the promises in God’s Word, and venture on new heights of freedom in Christ today.
Karen,
We just signed up to get the LWF Devotionals. I thought today's was especially encouraging. Thankyou for posting it.
Ezekiel,
I believe we are all questioning ourselves daily. "Am I doing the right thing? Am I doing the Lord's will in this struggle?" What better place to go than to God's Word for insight and for comfort.
Your posts are always insightful and reassuring.
Tim, AOG, Custos, Charis
Thanks for your discussion of Law v. Grace and the Love of Christ. This process of discussion has been a real blessing for I am a relatively new Christian. I listened to Dr. Rogers' ministry this morning and he tied together all the points you all shared quite nicely.
Custos - I miss Dr. Rogers as well.
Peace - Mark
ezekiel,
You're doing the right thing - preach on brother!
churchmouse,
Thanks! I got a "Discovering your Spiritual Gift" booklet in the mail from LWF and it is so interesting to me that it was mentioned on the blog the other day about how no one at BBC seems to be interested in teaching about spiritual gifts anymore.
Karen
In regard to last night's dicussion about i2:
1. I thought there was a young pastor brought to BBC to head up that worship service. What happened to him? I think I know the answer, but just confirming.
2. If we brought in a young preacher to head up i2, why wouldn't another young preacher be brought in to continue? Was Steve Gaines the only with a hole in his Thursday night schedule - or was this the plan all along?
3. How did Ryan Wingo get such a plum assignment with BBC with no educational background that I can find (if he has the education, someone please enlighten me!) - what the heck does he do to be on staff at BBC as a Worship Leader? I thought Jaime was the Worship Leader on staff?? (this is sarcasm!)
4. Does anyone else get bothered by the large age range covered by i2? Isn't 18-29 right? There is a big difference in an 18 yr old high school student and a 29 year old professional person, don't you think? Why do you think Phil Newberry and the youth staff keeps the youth as "the youth". And the college people as "the college people"? This age range covers people in the Singles II department as well, does it not? What I don't understand is why are the Sunday Schools for Youth, College and Singles all separate, yet BBC allows this worship service to run such a large age range. In the Singles Department, the 20+ are separated from the 30+ and they are all officially adults.
There is so much that bothers me about this - it's got that "ick" factor all over it.
Someone mentioned SG daughter at Union - and she's dating Wingo? See - more "ICK"! (What Gaines do as parents is their business, but I'm not so sure that belief should be forced on other's children-and 18 year olds are still kids to me!
I think BBC leadership should consider the phrase "Just because I can doesn't mean I should".
All this IMHO,
Karen
We were blessed for so long with the best of everything. I think we are without excuse.
The politics and posturing have been astounding to me personally. It is something I would have never dreamed in my life that I would have seen at Bellevue Baptist Church. I am convinced that it existed prior to now and by ignorance I was unaware. I am unaware no longer. I firmly believe in times past that the Holy Spirit and the leader that we had in Dr. Rogers kept the political wrangling of the church in check. I am not ignorant to the fact that Dr. Rogers was not perfect, but he was a Godly man. I further believe that as a church we no longer have Godly leaders in place. This may sound like strong words but Godly leaders would not behave in the manner that has been exhibited and would have avoided all appearance of the lack of financial integrity and the desire for worldly power. Godly leaders would support other Godly men and women and not attempt to destroy them. Godly leaders would not promote a small group of men that have exhibited ungodly character in their dealings with the church.
Unfortunately, the only area that I see as being able to effect the outcome is congregational disapproval. Our deacon body is virtually powerless to illicit change even if they were in 100% agreement on the necessity of change. It is my thought that the vast majority of our church is too uninformed to formulate an opinion on these issues. Beyond that the vast majority are misinformed of the truth on these issues. The pulpit has become a political podium to promote disorientation and that is something that I do not say without well thought out reasoning. The most recent formation of the Communications Committee, that was either pastor appointed or self-appointed and not approved by the deacon body, is a prime example of this. The Communications Committee reported this past Sunday that there work was completed, the questions had been answered and was then confirmed by Chuck Taylor’s address to the deacon body that it was time to move on. The problem with this scenario is that there are approximately 300-400 people that know that this is not the truth, but the pulpit has been used to convince 5,600 other people that it is true. Furthermore, those that chose to promote the disorientation of the congregation are full aware that they have not spoken the truth.
It is my belief that we have reached a point where our battle must be advanced outside the confines of a few spattered small meetings, outside the confines of a web site, outside the confines of a blog, outside the confines of attempting to inform members on an individual basis. The time has come in my opinion that we must use the sources that are available to disseminate as much information as rapidly as possible.
I further believe that we must engage in this battle with Authority. The Authority of Scripture will provide the credibility necessary for our arguments. Issues that do not have a basis in the Authority of Scripture have proven to be an unnecessary distraction and need to be removed.
Ezekiel,
I've known my spiritual gifts are mostly service and partially administration for a long time - I envy those with the gift of discernment, but not in a jealous sort of way. Unfortunately for BBC, I do not have the gift of giving! :)
Karen
tim,
AMEN! I had to read that post 3 times to get it all, but that was great!
Karen
I personally believe that there is another set of bylaws that the church didn't disclose to us. IMHO. Pure speculation, no proof. I just don't see how in the world that NOBODY updated the bylaws.
I suspect this may be the case also. It is very hard for me to believe that not one single amendment has been offered since 1929. Maybe a long time member can help us out here. If the 1929 bylaws are not the current bylaws, then the leaders lied when they presented them to Josh Manning as the current set of bylaws [and perhaps violated the 501c3 law by withholding the current set of bylaws].
Don Ware requested in writing to Bruce Brook for a business meeting. Our bylaws require Bellevue to abide by this request. Bruce Brook has ignored the written request other than Bruce leaning over in BFC to Don Ware as he whispered "there aint going to be a meeting".
If this account above is true, it lends some credibility to the suspicion that the 1929 bylaws given to Josh manning are not the existing bylaws. The reason being the 1929 bylaws do not mention that someone has the right to request a business meeting in writing (unless i missed it).
Yes it does but they are trying to say that we had a couple of business meeting this year already. Once when we approved messengers to the convention and I don't remember what the other time was. They weren't really business meetings but the congregation "voted" and that qualifies as a business meeting. The Greek word for that is "hogwash"
I agree on the hogwash, but I fear we ain’t see nothing yet folks.
I am about to launch into a prediction of what may happen. If your eyes easily glaze over during discussions of parlimentary procedure scroll on by.
As long as there has not been a vote on the BOD for this year then another business meeting should take place according to the 1929 bylaws. I suspect if another meeting is held it will be done during or immediately after the morning worship service so the elders can totally control the setting and the atmosphere. Also, it will be termed a “special meeting” under Robert’s Rules. I suspect Dr. Gains will act as moderator. A “special meeting” means there is a very limited agenda (the BOD vote) and thus there can be no “new” motions made from the floor. The only business conducted is what is specifically listed on the agenda of the “special meeting”. This set up is designed to allow Dr. Gaines and the elders to control the mood and thus not allow for nominations from the floor for new directors nor speeches for or against the proposed nominees. Unless someone has the guts to stand and ask for a point of order to allow nominations and / or speeches for or against nominees from the floor. Remember, this will be done during a morning worship service to control the numbers in favor of the elders and control the crowd's mood. If a point of order is raised, the moderator can alwsys just rule against the point of order (whether the ruling is accurate or not). Next, if the person that raised the point of order "appeals the ruling of the chair" do you really think 50% of the congregation will vote to overrule the chair (Dr. Gaines) and allow nominations and/or speeches on candidates from the floor? I doubt it. That is what I expect them to do if they hold any more meetings. It is a way for them to say they “hold meetings” and yet prevent the kind of meeting where someone can ask questions or make a motion from the floor. Of course this is not a real "business meeting", but I am not sure the congrgation will notice the difference. It is pretty easy to work the Robert's Rules system to your benefit if you (1)have the majority on your side, (2) want to stifle the minority, (3) have no concern for "fair play". This is what a benevolent dictator might do.
Also, this is right in line with the Rick Warren playbook. Drive the resistors away. Especially #6 and #9.
Tim,
Great summation! Looks like something to be posted on that other site as well.
Final comment: the above is pure speculation on my part. I have no "inside information" about plans. The elders could just as easily appoint people to the BOD and move on down the road with no meeting if they think that's their best option.
Tim
I believe that God is going to have to intervene or He is going to have to apologize to Prescilla and Aquilla. God allows godly men and women to stray from the Word for a period of time that only He determines. How long is that? I don't know but I do know that His Word is true, and that reckoning will happen.
God always warns His people when they have strayed from the Word. The leadership have been "warned" in several ways.
1. By His people talking directly to the leadership.
2. By the information that has been discussed in the CC meetings.
3. By letters and emails sent directly to leadership.
4. By visits from Godly saints who confronted them face to face.
5. By letters and emails that have been posted on SavingBellevue.com.
6. By the information that has come to light via this blog.
There are probably other ways they have been warned but these should have been enough for them to "see" the light, but their hearts are hardened.
I would not want to be in their shoes because I know a Holy God cannot and will not allow that to happen for a long time. God is patient, but He also has his limit that He will allow. I, personally would be afraid to lay my head on my pillow at night without making amends for the wrong some of these have caused fellow brothers and sisters in Christ.
By leadership, I am including staff and lay people.
At this time the only thing I know that we can do is to pray like we have never prayed before, share the facts with as many unenlightened people as we can, make sure we are only dealing with facts, keep our hearts pure, and ask God to intervene sooner rather than later.
There could be several ways of sharing the facts with the unenlightened and we should get together somehow and discuss the best and most efficient ways of doing this. I know that I have shared some facts with friends who had their heads in the sand and when they "heard" just a few facts they opened their eyes and wanted to know more.
We need to be ready to stand up and be counted when God gives us the green light, but we must be patient and praying until that happens.
Just my opinion.
Ezekiel said:
"We have to find a way to break down decades of brainwashing to "don't question God ordained authority".
Oh my! Amen and Amen!!! Are you familiar with the Hegelian Dialectic? I am sure there are amy phases of brainwashing techniques out there, but Saddleback teaches this one. And of course don't forget their principle of "Whatever it takes!" Pragmatism. It will be hard, but you are right...you are going to have to find a way to break this. People are praying for you.
I believe we have to remove the base of support Steve Gaines has - one at a time - and that will start with prayer - one at a time.
Who should we bathe in prayer first? Harry Smith, John Caldwell, Steve Tucker, Chuck Taylor, who,who????
"If my people who are called by MY name shall humble themselves and pray......"
I propose that we start with Harry Smith and we start right now. Pray for everything about him...and that the Lord would either show him the light or remove him.
There shall be VICTORY IN JESUS!!!
ezekiel
I agree with you too. We must stay the course and keep listening to God and He will reveal any truth He wants us to have. I don't believe we have to search it out, because God wants truth to be known and He will give it to us at the appointed time.
In the meantime we need to keep doing what we are doing until God tells us to do something different. What does that look like? I'm not sure, but for me I think it means for me to keep standing for the truth and not allowing anger and bitterness to creep in and short circuit my connection to God.
God loves us too much to allow sin in the camp without dealing with it. I know God loves those who are in sin on either side of this issue just as much as he loves you and me. Hard to understand from the human perspective but God does not deal in human perspective.
There is going to be a day of reckoning and I just want to be on the right side when that happens.
ezekiel said...
WTB,
Last night we were discussing the Steve Tucker and Chuck Taylor intimidation visit to Dr Spradlin.
Do you have any details on who dispatched them and exactly why they were dispatched?
I was told by a deacon at the church that Dr. Spradlin was told by the Bellevue mofia that Matthew 18 did not apply to the pastor and that Spradlin rebuked them for that statement.
Dr. Spradlin has been grumbling about Gaines for a long time but suddenly grew quiet for some reason. The deacon did not understand why.
Dr. Spradlin doesn`t want to openly discuss all the nasty little facts that he is personlly aware of because of his position at the seminary.
I think it would be great if he did speak up and take an open stand and come to the aid of our soon to be, if not already, apostate church,
Let`s pray that Dr.Spradlin will have a change of heart and come out from behind his position to help us.
bmwtt,
This is my own opinion, but I can't think of a reason why Mike Spradlin would put himself on the line for BBC. He's done all he can do - he's moved on as Interim Pastor of GBC, just as Dr. Whitmire has moved on, Peggy Perkins, Bob Sorrell, David Smith, ad nausem. Please don't take that as dispariging agains them, but Mike Spradlin has done all he can do (IMHO) to change the hearts of leadership at BBC.
This whole thing for me is like hitting my head against a brick wall - can you imagine what it's like to be a minister at BBC and see it all go to pot?
Again this is purely my opinion, but it's something to think about.
Karen
Karen,
I agree, it sounds like Mike Spradlin has already had his share of grief dumped on him. I honestly believe that we will have to pray pray pray and commit the results to God to finally see results, however, until the Lord tells us to stop pursuing the truth, we need to move forward, with or without Mr. Spradlin. It is his call, not ours, but if the Lord leads him to speak out, I am sure he will.
I have seen several references to Bellevue as a 501(c)3. Based on my conversations with men who should know, Bellevue is not a 501(c)3. If someone knows this is incorrect, please let me know.
Some have asked me for details about Dr. Spradlin and MABTS, please know I have not talk with him directly. I have, however, talked with several men who have. I have heard a lot of details of the various stories, but I am the wrong person to confirm them. I believe the basic facts have appeared on the board.
If this account above is true, it lends some credibility to the suspicion that the 1929 bylaws given to Josh manning are not the existing bylaws.
Josh, didn't you send a certified letter to the administration requesting a copy of the bylaws in accordance with Tennessee law? If what they returned to you was indeed not the current bylaws, then you have a case of fraud on your hands. Since you wrote the original request, I believe you should be the one to follow up. There could very well be some legal opportunities here which could in turn reveal a lot of underlying truth.
If it is true, that is. I realize the 1929 bylaws may very well be it, and we've just been ignoring them all these years.
Hey Custos,
This blog is so busy. I have a hard time keeping up with it. I vote for a forum. It would make topical discussion much more convenient and seemingly less random.
I posted a couple of days ago about the Purpose Driven Church. I had not heard of a PDC movement until a couple of months ago and I find the criticisms very unlike my experience of a PDC church.
I can say that the gospel message was never watered down at my church. The Bible was preached in its entirety and sin was addressed as such. The messages were relevant to today’s culture but were far from being soft on sin or shallow in content. My pastor’s messages contained something for all the baby Christians to cut their teeth on and also really delved into some deep theological issues causing a more mature believer to search the scriptures and use the brains that God had given them. The practice of criticizing all PDC churches for the lack of content is as useful as criticizing all Baptist churches for their Bible thumping. Anyone who has visited churches with the intent to find a new church home will know of what I’m speaking. Just because the sign out side says BAPTIST you cannot count on the full gospel being preached or the Bible being taught as inerrant or confidence there is no snake pit!
I liked that the PDC church has stripped away a lot of the religion, religious lingo, and ritualistic behavior. The church today is often so caught up it denominational affiliation, traditions, and the belief that they are the only ones who have figured out how church is supposed to be as if they must be the only church God smiles upon.
Don’t get me wrong – I’m not just blindly defending Rick Warren or his PD anything. I just know what my experience was. And it was a beautiful thing to see that church in action
mom4,
Thanks for agreeing with me - nice to have someone on the same page with you. I got another one for ya...
What do you think of the idea that Dr. Rogers was lied to by Gaines and/or the search committee? Or what if Dr. Rogers was so worried to leave us without a pastor that he simply made a mistake? If he were here, I truly believe he'd be the 1st to step up and say ENOUGH.
Just a random thought (I get those from time to time)
karen
lucy said...
Just because the sign out side says BAPTIST you cannot count on the full gospel being preached or the Bible being taught as inerrant or confidence there is no snake pit!
Amen to that sister! If BBC brings out those serpents I am outta there! I really did like your post and thanks for being a part of the blog.
karen
I have seen several references to Bellevue as a 501(c)3. Based on my conversations with men who should know, Bellevue is not a 501(c)3. If someone knows this is incorrect, please let me know.
Okay, maybe BBC files under 501(d) Religious and Apostolic organizations, or some other section. We can hope it is not under 501c(7) "social and recreational clubs". Maybe someone can find out for sure.
Could be a bad assumption to use 501c(3) but that’s what is posted at savingbellevue.com, and so I just assumed it was under that authority Josh got a copy of the 1927 bylaws.
lucy,
I realize that you were not addressing me, but I would like to offer a response.
I believe that there is a great mis-communication in catagorizing anything as PDC, Baptist, Catholic, Methodist...etc...
We need to be more concerned about whether it is a Biblical church model or not. The Bible also gives us a clear picture of an apostate church and that is also a measuring point.
The line that I would like to draw in the sand is this. There are some churches that would call themselves PDC that are indeed a New Testament model. At the same time there are some churches that would call themselves PDC that are indeed apostate. The same could be said of Baptist or any other denomination.
It would be the exception however for a church to have adopted the PDC philosophy and not become apostate in the process. It is possible, but difficult and by the true definition of PDC they are not in fact purely PDC if they are a Biblically based New Testament church, neither are Baptist for that matter.
I feel certain that I have done very little to create a clear stream from muddy water, but I tried.
Karen,
I have heard that Dr Rogers admitted he had been "duped" (that was the word used), so I do believe that Steve Gaines lied to him either directly to his face or with his actions. If Steve Gaines promoted himself as Dr Rogers greatest fan and he stated that Dr Rogers was his mentor, then why in the world did he not only lock him out of the pastor's offices, but not even bother to call the man but once from the time he took "office" until Dr Rogers died. And another thing (I am on a roll:), a certain person on the search committee was upset that Gaines had PROMISED not to make any changes for the first year, and what did he do right off the bat - rolled up the carpets and began tossing folks out the door with the rugs!
We started questioning things right away when Gaines came,we knew something was not right, but kept attending until it was obvious that there were serious problems.
I also have problems with these supposed men of God who lie, twist the facts to suit themselves, mock the flock, and just plain old be "ugly" to their brothers and sisters in Christ.
And the financial dealings - WOW that is a story all in itself! Reminds me of the Tennessee Waltz!
Where is the FBI when you need em??
so tired...
Welcome to the fray! Hope you'll stay around because I think you're as like-minded as most of us around here. I really think you're right about the numbers - I lived in California for 10 years and never moved my membership away from BBC - therefore I was still counted on the role as a member. If they purged the church records, I bet they'd find MANY, MANY out of date, dead or no longer attending folks on them. I really believe God is in control of this whole situation and he's gonna work it out in HIS way, in HIS time.
Good post - keep them coming!
karen
Bellevue Friend
Great Post. Thanks for taking the time to share and for the words of wisdom and encouragement
Tim
Thanks for responding. I think we are on the same page concerning church identification/denomination being meaningless. After some study and a lot of prayer, I am not convinced the ol’ BBC is necessarily a biblical model of a new testament church.
I believe the church is ill right now and the current issues are all under God’s control. And not just at BBC but churches around the country. I really believe that God is working in all of this. Sorry Benjamin, but God is with us!
Lucy said...
"I believe the church is ill right now and the current issues are all under God’s control. And not just at BBC but churches around the country. I really believe that God is working in all of this."
I agree whole heartedly, there are many churches around the country that are in trouble just like we are. And I agree the just because the church says "Baptist" does not mean there are Bible believers there. I do also believe that Warrenism is more dangerous than you think it is. Behind the "warm and fuzzy" facade, there lies the promotion of men and an agenda that is questionable. The verdict is still out for a lot of people, personally I believe that the PDC movement is sly, deceptive and filled with unholy principles, but then look at the devil - he was the angel of light - so we may recognize him as "light" if we do not compare what he offers with the true "Light of God's Word".
bin & westtn,
501(c)(3) is a correct classification for churches...see IRS Tax Exempt Status for Organizations from Internal Revenue Code- Publ. 557...You should probably do your homework or check your sources b/4 questioning something that is outside/beyond your field of knowledge
forreal said...
Karen,
This post is what I meant by "ugly".
Mon4 said:
“Behind the "warm and fuzzy" facade, there lies the promotion of men and an agenda that is questionable.”
From what I understand the agenda of the PDC is to present the gospel to the lost and edify the believers. Both take place within the PDC church. I agree with you that it is imperative that we as believers check what we see and hear against scripture, I never encountered anything in my former church countered God’s Word.
Keeping 30,000 ‘members’ on roll and tracking tithers sounds much like power trips and an agenda to me. What would be the advantage of keeping membership rolls outdated? Are there tax benefits? Or is it an attempt to look big in the Southern Baptist Convention? (promotion of men) Regardless, I find it less than truthful if not completely dishonest. These things were taking place long before SG came along.
I agree, however, the rolls are regularly purged and there are members added and removed each week. Sometimes the attendance is not factored in when someone is claiming that they have the numbers behind them, but I do know for a fact that the rolls are purged on a regular basis. The only rolls that may not reflect the accuracy one would prefer, would be the college rolls. When these young folks go off to college, sometimes they join other churches without transferring their membership and that may present a problem. But for all intents and purposes - the membership count is basically correct.
I would like to know how the attendance compares to the membership now though?? Anybody got a clue?
Lucy,
And I agree about the checking of tithes. That is an act of worship between us and God. For anyone to intervene in that would make them not only a control freak, but they are tampering with God's annointed form of worship. That is dangerous.
mom4,
I got that...don't worry about it.
Karen
Ezekiel said:
" Nothing like God's hand on your life to turn you around, humble you and get you looking for answers in the WORD."
Nothing like it...and I speak from experience. My life is forever changed as a result of just this. What a humbling experience it is to stand for Jesus...and at any and all cost! I have read a couple of post on this blog where deacons are afraid to take a stand for fear of losing their jobs, etc. Do they not understand that it is for God they need to take a stand? And who better to protect them than Him? Man will let them down...God will NOT! They are not seeing clearly on this issue. I pray these deacons will take a close look at this. Our first responsibility is to God. Period. May we continue to pray for all involved.
Bin Wondering...
On your comments on the 501(c)3...I assume Bellevue is incorporated? If so, when? Some of this is not making any sense. However, I am not into corporate law as such. Do you not have to be incorporated to have this 501(c) 3 standing? Wouldn't all of this had to have major changes at some point to qualify for the 501(c)3 rating? If I remember correctly, our church had to incorporate to become eligible for this? Maybe I am wrong...
forreal,
WTB is a tax attorney
Karen...
"about the numbers"
Right! About the numbers. Nickels and noses so to speak. Where I was a member, there were names on the rolls who had never been there! It is all to make them look good. If we look good and show folk a good time, the seekers will come. And keep coming. More money. It isn't about Christianity anymore...it is churchianity. The numbers game is a joke. And I am not being sarcastic...I am being serious.
Hey ya'll,
I went to irs.gov and the only 501(c)(3) is the Bellevue Foundation - sooos - somebodyis a
tellin' tales out of school!
Mom4...
Hey...smart girl! Now, if you don't mind telling me...I would assume the Foundation is separate from Bellevue Church? Has to be...but clarify for me if you don't mind.
Bellevue is in fact incorporated. I called the accounting office several months back, and was told by someone who claimed to know that Bellevue is indeed a 501(c)3, and that we do not receive any Federal faith-based funding.
Based on records with the Tennessee Secretary of State (who handles incorporation issues), Bellevue was incorporated on March 25, 1929.
Look for yourself here:
TN Secretary of State
Enter "Bellevue" in the search box and you'll get Bellevue Baptist Church as well as Bellevue Foundation (among many other records).
Under Bellevue Baptist Church's record, take note of who the registered agent is... The "Brooke" in the name of the law firm is Bruce Brooke.
I should add that I for one am very glad we do not receive any Federal faith-based funding. Anyone in the know (do some research) can see that the strings attached are grossly unscriptural in that they set up an entirely inappropriate relationship between the Federal gov't and the church.
I am, however very disappointed that Bellevue (or any church for that matter) is incorporated at all, regardless of what flavor (501c3 or other). For the very same reason: it puts the incorporated church in a voluntarily submissive position under the authority of the state.
The scriptural principles "we ought to obey God rather than men" and "you cannot serve two masters" come to mind...
It's precisely what happened in Germany in the 1930s.
aog,
See my post re: i2 - any comments??
karen
karen,
Yes I read your post...the age spread I think is out of line for sure..my daughter is 18 and I would beat the crap out of a 29 yr old hitting on her...so for the safety and well being of all 29 yr old males I won't ever encourage her to attend something like that. Of course I'm against i2 anyhow for other reasons, but on that point alone that's where I stand.
Ima,
I have been told that the Foundation is indeed separate, but I have not looked it up. I will and get back to you, but it won't be today - I won't forget - I promise:)
pardon my use of the "c" word..in matters concerning my daughter I tend to get rather King Kongish.
Based on incorporation records with the State of Tennessee, Bellevue Baptist Church and Bellevue Foundation are indeed separate entities.
Bruce Brooke is the registered agent for BBC; Bob Dawkins is the registered agent for BF.
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