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- New BBC Open Forum
- This forum was created to provide a place where those who are seriously concerned about the issues facing Bellevue Baptist Church and the SBC can come to comment and exchange ideas. Anonymous comments are welcome, but it is respectfully requested that instead of choosing the "Anonymous" option those who want to post comments without logging in select a unique screen name. This lets everyone tell the difference between one anon and another without revealing any personal information. Under the box where you compose your comment where it says "Choose an identity," just check "Name/URL" and type in the screen name of your choice. You can leave the URL field blank. It would be helpful if you'd use the same screen name for any subsequent comments. This makes reading and following discussions easier, helps avoid confusion, and doesn't result in one person being credited for writing something s/he didn't. Comments by posters whose only purpose is to disrupt (i.e. trolls) will be subject to deletion. Your cooperation will be appreciated.
300 comments:
«Oldest ‹Older 201 – 300 of 300AOG, I can relate. My 4-yr old daughter fully understands (yes, already) that she can't date until she's 37, and then only under close supervision. I will be the supervisor.
I can't remember who said it, but a guest speaker at Bellevue some years back put it well: "I think when the guy comes over to pick up your daughter, you should be in the den. Cleaning your guns."
karen,
hehe yea..King Kongish...go to my personal blog at rfmd92.blogspot.com...i have a post there called Rules for Dating My Daughter...I got it off a website...you'll get a kick out of it.
Forreal,
I will stack my credentials up next to yours any day you want to compare them. I won't get into the tax code and all the court cases, but here are a few resources for you to consider:
IRS Package 1023, Application for Recognition of Exemption, lists churches, church auxiliaries, religious schools, mission societies, and youth groups as automatically exempt.
IRS Package 990, Return of Organization Exempt From Income Tax, p. 3, Section B of instruction booklet, includes churches, church-affiliated organizations, church schools, and mission societies on its tax-exempt list.
IRS Publication 1828, Tax Guide for Churches and Religious Organizations, p. 3, reiterates the tax-exempt status of churches, their auxiliaries, and associations of churches.
Next time, why not read what I said before blasting me? I said I was told by men who should know that we never filed for 501C(3) status. In my post I asked if anyone knew for certain we are a 501C(3) because I have no independent knowledge of our status.
I do know it is unnecessary for a church to file for 501C(3) status. How many applications have you filed? How many 501C(3) organizatins have you represented before the IRS? How many churches have you represented? I've done all those things in my career.
Check out the link below and get back to me, Sport.
http://www.irs.gov/charities/article/0,,id=96109,00.html
3:46 PM, December 12, 2006
Posted to New General Discussion Thread
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it's a pretty accurate reflection of my feelings.
aog,
King Kongish? Is he in the Bible? :)
You and I have the same train of thought re: 18 yr old and 29 yr old males (and you know darn well that the likelyhood of them being even older!). Your use of "crap" was warranted!
Karen
Ezekiel said:
" Then we run into folks like Dr. Gaines, Harry Smith and Steve Tucker that seem only to want power, control and authority."
Very ironic...it should be these very men and those like them who should realize that the power, control, and the authority belongs to Almight God, not man. God has no substitutions. They should realize that they are servants and it is their responsibility to feed the sheep...not destroy the body of Christ. They should honor and obey the commands of Christ. They should fall on their faces and ask forgiveness from Him...and repent. Satan has infiltrated these men in the form of PRIDE. They are to filled with PRIDE to serve God. We must pray for them.
WTB,
Tell it like it is bro.
WTB,
Please email me. I have something that you — as a tax attorney — should be very interested in.
ch,
I know what you mean...the boy my daughter is dating now has seen my trophy room..there's an empty space with a plaque under it reserved for him.
WTB,
You rock, as usual!
karen
AOG,
Don't let me confuse you - I deleted my "King Kong" post then reposted it - must be that dang Kool-aid again!
ez,
Yea I tried...he had time to retract...too late now.
CH..will do.
By the way, "former tax attorney" is more accurate.
karen,
lol...yea i saw it..now you'll have to read up to see my response.
WTB...
Can't speak for anybody but myself, but that about clears it up for me! :)
501(c)(3) is a correct classification for churches
It sure is.
...see IRS Tax Exempt Status for Organizations from Internal Revenue Code- Publ. 557...
I have. That is one boring document. Reading that is worse than watching Yentl.
You should probably do your homework or check your sources b/4 questioning something that is outside/beyond your field of knowledge
Hmmm... are you in a bad mood or something? I know reading tax law sure puts me in a bad mood, so it's understandable.
I also realize 501c(3) is an acceptable classification for churches. What I was uncertain about after reading Westtn’s post was whether BBC was a 501c(3). The reference to 501c(7) was an attempt at humor, but maybe you didn't find it very funny. Westtn seemed to have reason to believe BBC was not a 501c(3).
I could do the homework but I'd rather watch basketball. I'm hoping you have already done the homework and you’ll just let us copy yours. So, can you can enlighten us on BBC’s current tax status?
I promise it's not beyond me and I suspect westtn will manage to comprehend the answer also. ;-)
aog,
Loved the blog thingy about dating your daughter - you sound like my dad!
karen
karen,
yea i love that..every father should have that framed on the wall for all his daughter's suitors to see.
Mom4 said,
I would like to know how the attendance compares to the membership now though?? Anybody got a clue?
I'm going to tell you what I beleive is an accurate number for attendance compared to our rolls.
As you have already stated we have approximately 30,000 plus a few members on the roll. I can remember at a BFC meeting this year being said that we have bad addresses for 10,000 of our members that we can't get in contact with.
When Steve Gaines arrived, we were averaging about 8,600 to 9,000 in the two worship services combined. For the past several months, we have been averaging about 7,000 for both services combined.
I heard we were averaging about 7,300 in BFC attendance for the past several months which is down about 5% from a year ago. We are actually averaging more in Bible Fellowship Classes than the two worship services. This may be a first for Bellevue. I'm not sure what the reason is but I could take a good guess.
Hope this helps.
I don't have any figures on total giving from Jan 1 till today. The last numbers I heard were from July and the giving was still up but starting to tail off rapidly.
Mom4,WstTN
I did not intend to be "ugly", just direct...I am for truth and honesty no matter what the circumstance or whom it may concern. I encourage you and others to find the truth whatever it may be, but to be honest in attaining it. I also pray that you recognize and be able to discern the truth in all that you see and hear in your search. I apologize that my comment/s may have offended you or others because that was truly not my intent. WT, I have no desire to compare credentials or whatever with you. I am sure that you are fully capable in your field. I was trying to point to a simple fact in my comment. I apologize for "blasting" you, although I sincerely did not intend it as you characterized it.
foreal...
Apology accepted and appreciated.
Does anyone have any knowledge of the involvment of the church paying to have a set built for Donna Gaines so she can market her new Bible study? If the production of this Bible study is being paid for by Bellevue Baptist Church providing the set building, Bellevue cameras, and Bellevue personel, then we need to be made aware of the cost so it can be reimbursed.
With the discussion of the tax issues of non-profits etc., I believe there may be an IRS problem with the company that Steve and Donna Gaines has and Bellevue Baptist Church comingling money and resources. Could any of us use our church to help us make money? I doubt it. I've seen the tax forms on "Hope for Your Future" and they clearly show Steve and Donna Gaines as being the officers of the company and they along with Dana Street are on the payroll.
How about it WTB or anyone else? Any thoughts on that?
swtt,
Thanks for the numbers. I am sure there are folks like me who depart after BFC rather than sit in the service where they are not wanted (you know, like it or leave!). But that is probably just one of many reasons that members are departing rather rapidly.
Forreal,
Thank you and no big deal. I've got thick skin, so don't worry about it. You just happened to question me on something I know a lot about and it rubbed me the wrong way. I've received a slew of hateful emails today and I overreacted to what you said. I am sorry for the strong comeback.
swtt,
I see legal issues all over the place. I would be happy to talk with you privately, but I prefer to keep my specific legal opinions off the internet. Rest assured, however, I have shared them with those who might need to know.
WTB,
You're getting hateful emails?
bin wonderin said...
Hmmm... are you in a bad mood or something? I know reading tax law sure puts me in a bad mood, so it's understandable.
Bin,
boy, have you got the ability to read between the lines! I didn't mean to come off so grumpy... I would really rather watch the ballgame with you rather than the homework stuff. So maybe I'll save it for another day... God bless you, brother
Bellevue Friend said...
Is God Sovereign or Not?
He is!
Thank you for your wise post!
I would only add that even though God is all knowing and all powerful, he still uses weak little people to move his will along!
That still amazes me!
I've been reading some of the posts during the day today. As that I am 26, I can give you an idea of whats going on in the Career group. There have been some very drastic changes as it relates to the 9:30 Assembly time for Career I and Career II. When I first joined Bellevue approx. 3 years ago, Career I and Career II was completely separated except for the occassional road trip like to the beach or something like that. At the end of last year I was going through some issues and I wound up taking an 8 month leave of absence from church while I dealt with my personal issues. When I returned, they had both Career I and Career II COMBINED during assembly at 9:30.
The assembly seems to me to be a service within a service because there is worship music played in the room with a live band. As far as i2 goes, I have never been. This is mainly because on as others have already said, it makes no sense for college kids to be grouped together with single professionals.
I hate to say it, but there have been times since I returned from my sabbatical that I felt way out of place and considered changing churches.
Allofgrace,
Yes, I received four (I'm not sure that technically qualifies as a "slew") of them today.
I don't care what anyone says in an email. What frustrates me is when I receive email from someone who is supportive or just trying to be friendly, I am now wary. I'm hunting for hidden agendas and alterior motives. I don't like to be so cynical.
Thanks for the numbers. I am sure there are folks like me who depart after BFC rather than sit in the service where they are not wanted (you know, like it or leave!). But that is probably just one of many reasons that members are departing rather rapidly.
I'm like you, I usually leave after sunday school and not attend the service. I'm definitely not inclined to attend a service where the person giving the sermon has no honor.
koragg,
Do they study the bible or is it more of a preaching type of service? Any interaction or is the communication all one way?
---------------------------
Its more of just worship and then say hello to friends. After the music, someone goes up and gives out the announcements of upcoming events then we break off into our classes.
Koragg,
Do you ever have an opportunity to get into the word and study it?
I have visited several classes an have found more fellowship than bible study. Kind of leaves me hungry...
5:42 PM, December 12, 2006
----
I try, but most of the time I am too busy. I got saved in 2003, but my faith has gone up and down over the years.
Wow, it's quiet in here tonight.
Tell me... I just finished reading the article by Philip Rosenthal on "Why we shouldn't cover-up scandal"... see savingbellevue.com if you'd like to read it.
Personally, I believe that this article deals with many issues in such a way that is missing in much of our conversation. "come let us reason together..."
What do you think? How can we change OUR thinking in regards to this area?
How would you counsel someone grappling with the complex issue of exposing scandal?
Are we equipped to draw out truth-based decisions in our brothers and sisters?
Can someone tell me how this is different from LWF using Adrian's sermons produced at Bellevue? I am asking in sincerity...it just seems to be the same thing to me. Am I missing something?
swtt said...
"Does anyone have any knowledge of the involvment of the church paying to have a set built for Donna Gaines so she can market her new Bible study? If the production of this Bible study is being paid for by Bellevue Baptist Church providing the set building, Bellevue cameras, and Bellevue personel, then we need to be made aware of the cost so it can be reimbursed.
With the discussion of the tax issues of non-profits etc., I believe there may be an IRS problem with the company that Steve and Donna Gaines has and Bellevue Baptist Church comingling money and resources. Could any of us use our church to help us make money? I doubt it. I've seen the tax forms on "Hope for Your Future" and they clearly show Steve and Donna Gaines as being the officers of the company and they along with Dana Street are on the payroll.
How about it WTB or anyone else? Any thoughts on that?"
I would like to recommend to all of you to go to www.sliceoflaodicea.com and read Ingrid Schuelter's article, A Look at Religious Babylon, about Bro. Jeff Noblit. It was posted yesterday. Then scroll down in that article to where you can listen to one of his sermon's titled Religious Babylon. He has a series on this, and I cannot recommend highly enough how important it might be for you to hear these sermons. His website is www.anchoredintruth.com. The series is ongoing now and they are and will be posted on his website. It truly is like a breath of fresh air to hear a minister preach truth and to preach about this ongoing apostasy in the church. Bro. Jeff is in Muscle Shoals, Alabama and is the pastor of First Baptist Church there. He and his sermons are like a light in the darkness.
i-flyaway said...
"Can someone tell me how this is different from LWF using Adrian's sermons produced at Bellevue? I am asking in sincerity...it just seems to be the same thing to me. Am I missing something?"
I may not be entirely correct on this, but I believe that Dr Rogers' sermons were legally transferred to LWF ownership. I do not know the terms of the transfer, but I do know that LWF does not profit from them and neither did Dr Rogers. Also, Dr Rogers never received a salary from LWF until he retired from BBC and joined LWF staff. He never "double dipped".
i-flyaway,
There is a huge difference between LWF and Steve and Donna Gaines' company. Steve and Donna Gaines are two private individuals to gain financially off of this setup.
I'm told there was a time early on in LWF (it used to be called something else) that they had to stop using Bellevue resources because of IRS violations.
If you don't see anything wrong with this, then why not let any of us who are members of Bellevue have access to use the church resources to build a corporation selling Christian literature for financial gain. If Steve and Donna Gaines and Dana Street were no profiting from this setup, I'd not have so many concerns.
Since they are, they need to stop immediately and reimburse Bellevue Baptist Church for the expenses paid by Bellevue to date.
If we let this go, how much of the $30,000,000 (boy that's a lot of money to be hording) Bellevue Baptist Church is sitting on, could find it's way into other "personal" ministries controlled by Steve and Donna Gaines?
If you don't think this is a reality, you are wrong.
For anyone to use BBC funds to support or operate a private, for profit enterprise, regardless of what that enterprise is, or who's enterprise it is, is wrong.
allofgrace,
"Hope For Your Future" is set up as a non-profit corporation from what I've seen. I don't think being set up as a non-profit corporation is the issue. A non-profit corporation can still benefit the officers of the corporation financially if they choose to pay themselves huge salaries or royalties from the sale of merchandise.
To a pastor to benefit financially off the backs of the church he is pastoring is wrong, no matter which direction you look at it.
swtt,
I'm told there was a time early on in LWF (it used to be called something else) that they had to stop using Bellevue resources because of IRS violation
It was more than IRS regulations. It was liability, workmans comp rules, etc.
Other questions, then, that may need to be asked:
What type of consignment arrangement exists between the bookstore and BBC members who sell items in the store? A number of our prominent soloists have recorded CDs that are sold there, and it only stands to reason that there is some profit to be made from doing so. How is that set up?
What was the arrangement that existed for the sale through the bookstore of items generated by Pastor Rogers and Mrs. Rogers over the years? Even before I became a member at BBC, I don't know that I ever came to the bookstore that I didn't see a very prominent display of books and tapes by Mrs. Joyce, and a great display of Dr. Rogers' books near the front. What was the profit margin? How was it set up? Does anyone know for a fact that the Rogers' never made a profit off of items sold in the bookstore at BBC?
Did Dr. Rogers ever utilize paid time while he was on staff at BBC to write a book? Hold a book signing?
What is the arrangement when special speakers and singers come to BBC for engagements and set up "product tables" in the lobby and/or leave product behind in the bookstore to be sold after they've gone? Is the church reimbursed a publishing fee for the space in our bulletin that is used to promote booksignings and the like?
What is the arrangement for the use of the Bellevue technologies by other individuals (not the Pastor and his wife, but others -- say choir members who want to record a CD)? Do they pay the going studio/union rate for the use of the recording equipment and an engineer? Or is there some kind of "break" if they "know the right people?"
And what about the practice of charging exhorbitant fees for the usage of our facilities for weddings and funerals and the "I'm-sorry-but-you'll-have-to-use-our-staff" clauses that are written into those usage contracts? Does performing such duties fall under the auspices of the regular responsibilities of the ministers who perform them, or are there additional fees paid? And to whom are those fees paid -- that minister or the church?
maybejustmaybe,
Those are interesting questions, many of which I've wondered about myself. However, a word of caution. Let's not drag the Rogers family into this discussion. Just try to respect their feelings and act accordingly.
Thanks,
NBBCOF
Is Bellevue's bookstore owned and operated by Bellevue, or is it an outside entity operating on Bellevue property...I've always wondered about that...I know on college campuses..some bookstores are owned and operated by the college...some are owned by outside companies which operate on school property...just curious...i know the 2 aren't the same situation...just made me curious about that.
I see the real importance of bylaws now. At first my thoughts were why do we need to change. After keeping up with the happenings here at Bellevue, I now believe we must change our bylaws.
As an example, where in our bylaws does it speak of someone using the church for their for profit business? how do we handle the sale of members CD slaes in the bookstore? you can go on and on with this but there is nothing written down in the by that are posted on this site about this.
why are we scared to write new bylaws?
They're scared because bylaws act as checks against tyranny, much like Robert's Rules. As long as there's a governing body of rules and laws, their power is limited.
Also, while bylaws protect everyone from the leadership, Robert's Rules are designed specifically to protect the minority from beeing utterly trampled. That's why business meetings are viewed as dangerous by the Powers that Be. If we could actually get the floor, Robert's Rules would give us some protection and leverage.
This entire thing is politics and power plays, but since the church doesn't opperate like the world, we don't have a press to hold these people accountable. Well, we have a press, but it's run by the church. Not very convinient when it comes to shedding light on the questionable church behavior.
mjm,
You seem to be looking for something to justify your position of support for the Gaines administration. Perhaps you just need to sit back and wait before you start making accusations you know nothing about, especially about the Rogers' family. I suspect that maybe you are part of the Gaines' family??
At any rate, the bookstore is a self-sustaining part of the church. It stands on its own financially, unless there have been changes recently. The books and CDs are printed and recorded just like any other author, musician would do and they are sold just like any other items would be. Each book there has a publisher and each cd/dvd uses a recording studio unless they are recorded at BBC (for example the pastor's funeral service which was sold for $2.00 which was cost). The items are purchased at the standard rate from the publisher/studio and sold at whatever rate the bookstore sets and the bookstore would keep any profit to maintain it's financial position within the church. It is, however, accountable to the church financially, from my understanding and there is a committee that "pre-reads/reviews" the materials before it ever hits the shelves.
As far as the costs for weddings and funerals go, it is the cheapest place in town and the services rendered are elegant and the minister is "FREE" - they do require marriage counseling after which they will give you one "certificate" worth quite a large discount on your marriage license - one of the perks of membership!
If that's the case, then they broke the law (and lied). The Tennessee code states very clearly that the bylaws must be provided to a member of the organization within in 5 business days of written request. If they provided false bylaws they lied to me and broke Tennessee law.
swtt said...
Don Ware requested in writing to Bruce Brook for a business meeting. Our bylaws require Bellevue to abide by this request. Bruce Brook has ignored the written request other than Bruce leaning over in BFC to Don Ware as he wispered "there aint going to be a meeting".
So there you have it. Bruce Brook is now the man who is calling whether Bellevue holds a business meeting or not. Who is Bruce Brook? I've been told he may hold the keys to the vault at Bellevue. Does anyone know if he is a deacon?
9:54 PM, December 11, 2006
SWTT,
Mr. Ware does not have internet access so he asked me to post the following response:
To SWTT
12/12/06 11:35 PM
I received a phone call with a question about my communications with Bruce Brooke. The question was generated by your entry on the website. There may be a slight misunderstanding. For all to see and read, I am asking a friend to put the two (2) letters to Bruce Brooke on the website. The 1st is dated Oct. 11, 2006, and the 2nd is dated Oct. 29, 2006. The first got a verbal reply, as shown in the Oct. 29 letter. The second has gotten no reply. If I misspoke or misrepresented any of this to you, I am truly sorry. But, what I wrote is clear in black & white. The * shown in the text at "See attached" indicate scripture in KJV.
All For All Truth,
Don Ware
October 11, 2006
To:
Mr. Bruce Brooke, Chairman
Board of Directors Bellevue Baptist Church
-address omitted by Karen-
Dear Bruce,
Many faithful members have left our flock. It is obvious our church family is in a crisis, and trust in leadership contineues to decline. It is time to abide by our existing bylaws, and a process should begin to update them. In accordance with our current church bylaws, 2 Cor. 8:20-21*, Rom. 12:17*, and 1 Thes. 5:22*, it is time to immediately schedule a church business meeting in November, 2006. When the leadership made their presentation on Sunday night, September 24, 2006, it was made clear that was not a business meeting. The "adversaries" were referenced in the sermon on that Sunday night, but they had no opportunity to speak or offer any defense. Justice requires they have an opportunity to make a presentation, give a defense, and get their questions answered. Questions from the membership should be answered also. The veil of secrecy should be rent in twain!
The panel to which questions should be directed at the November business meeting should include: Dr. Steve Gaines, Rev. Mark Dougharty, Rev. Jamie Parker, Mr. Chip Freemen, all Board of Directors, all Budget Planning Committee, all Deacon Officers, all members of the Pastor Search Committee, Chairman of Committee on Committees, Chairman of Deacon Nominating/Selection Committee, Chairman of Finance Committee, Chairman of Long Range Planning Committee, and the new Ad Hoc Committee. The panel should be prepared to answer any and all questions.
Please arrange for this meeting and make proper, prompt notification to the membership. If there is any hesitancy to honor this request, the obvious remaining question is, "What do those listed above have to fear or hide?"
Brotherly,
Don Ware
October 29, 2006
- All addresses omitted by Karen -
Mr. Bruce Brooke, Chairman
Board of Directors Bellevue Baptist Church
Dear Brother Bruce,
Your comment this morning in our Bible Study classroom seemed to indicate that you had no plans to respond in written form to my October 11, 2006 letter. And, I was astonished when you said you and the Board of Directors had no authority to call a business meeting of Bellevue Baptist Church.
Would you be kind enough to write and advise me who does have the authority to call a scheduled business meeting?
Thank you so much.
Brotherly,
Don Ware
- any spelling errors are Karen's alone.
ezekiel,
Makes you wonder that if Harry Smith and Rex Jones invest their money in Ponzi schemes, what are they doing with the church funds that they are responsible for investing, as members of the Finance committee?
(Starting to figure out why the Communications Committee has declared it's work "done")
SWTT,
Email me, please...
Karen :)
FinanceGuy/Ezekiel,
Also brings up serious questions of discernment in these men. But then we already knew that, didn't we?
Josh -
If that's the case, then they broke the law (and lied). The Tennessee code states very clearly that the bylaws must be provided to a member of the organization within in 5 business days of written request. If they provided false bylaws they lied to me and broke Tennessee law.
I am sad to say I worry this is what has happened Josh. I hope not. I am worried because if the above is true then it reveals a rotten to the core situation and a blatant premeditated disregard for both man's law and God's law. This topic is worthy of it's own thread.
If this turns out to be the case it will reveal an incredible amount of hubris on the part of the ruling class that now appears to be in charge of BBC.
The correspondence between Bruce Brooke and Don Ware is also very revealing and at the same time very troubling.
custos,
check your email.
Karen
forgive my ignorance...what is the Ponsi Scheme?
Without going into details, Bellevue supported a ministry in the past led by a Bellevue member, that got caught up in something similar. That ministries money, along with the personal money of other Bellevue members was lost in a Ponsi scheme set up by a layman at another Memphis church whom is now in jail. My understanding is that the ministry had to shut down due to losing all it's moneyin the scheme. Whats sad is that the people running the "investment" used this ministries involvement to recruit other investors, saying that "surely they wouldn't put God's money in something risky?
I'm afraid that the love of money is overpowering the "love and fear of God" with certain individuals.
And it's all explained by "being good stewards" of tithes and offerings.
Things that make you go "Hmmmmm"...
AOG,
You can google it, but basicially, it's where someone gets you to invest money in something that promises above average returns.
They pay the first investors a "return" using subsequent investors money. The origional investors get dividend checks that make it look like the returns are really good. They then put even more money in the investment.
The money is usually "invested" in things like expensive meals at places such as Ruth's Chris, (i.e. maintaing a high-class lifestyle for the fiduciary), and they are explained away as normal business expenses. Eventually this all comes crashing down, and there is no money left to pay fake dividends out. (sometimes they just take the money and go to South America, but the end is that the investors get left holding the bag)
Bin and One Member,
Where is this info coming from about Fargason and Brooke's Law Offices having a different set of bylaws? This is the first I've heard of it, and it's a serious allegation since truth to it would prove the church broke Tennessee state law.
Josh Manning
custos,
I've been told by some long time BBC members (one who's dad was a deacon under R.G.Lee), that they are almost certain there was more to the bylaws than the one page, and it's possible that there are people out there who may have a copy at their house.
If true, and those persons are reading this, I'm sure you could communicate with custos privatly and anonymously.
FG,
Absolutely. I too have a hard time believing that into the 50s and 60s we only had a single page of bylaws.
Mom4, you've got mail.
Josh
Note the Communications Committee has taken down the website they put up. (Link is still on the front page of this site.) They say they "believe this website has served its purpose and have chosen to take it down."
Never mind we've never gotten a straight answer to a question, it's time to move on!
NASS,
It really doesn't matter. There was never anything informative on there anyway. Except of course for all the current Bellevue polices with revision dates of November 2006.
Bin and One Member,
Where is this info coming from about Fargason and Brooke's Law Offices having a different set of bylaws? This is the first I've heard of it, and it's a serious allegation since truth to it would prove the church broke Tennessee state law.
The first I heard of the Fargason and Brooke scenario was via onemember’s post at 10:03 AM, December 13, 2006.
I also have no direct knowledge that any set of bylaws other than the one-half page 1929 set you received exist. It just boggles my mind to think the 1929 set has never been amended for any reason.
The Don Ware and Bruce Brooke correspondence posted at 11:17 AM, December 13, 2006 posted by Karen is interesting in the sense that the 1929 bylaws do not prohibit the BOD from calling a business meeting. Absent the removal of this power to call a meeting from the BOD I would assume they are still empowered to call a meeting by simply voting to do so. It would seem they should be expected to at least set the time for the regular monthly meeting referred to in the bylaws. How could Bruce Brooke tell Don Ware that the BOD does not have the “authority” to call a meeting unless the authority was removed by an amendment?
Stating the BOD does not have authority to call a meeting just makes no sense, unless there is some amendment we don't know about made subsequently to the 1929 bylaws.
bin,
email me - Don Ware asked me to give you a message privately. Thanks!
The post at savingbellevue about abusive ministries hit home.
I went through some of this at Bella Vista, the Spanish/Hispanic mission of Bellevue that meets in the Chapel at 2:00 pm. The Pastor is Mario Maldonado. He also used intimidation and false accusations. He often turned the tables around on his "enemies" by making it seem like they were the problem.
I stayed for a long time because I thought things would get better.
Needless to say, my family wasn't the only one abused and eventually driven out. I didn't speak out because of the language barriers between any witnesses and the Bellevue staff. Others didn't speak up either for the same reason. Only a few of us command the English language enough to hold sufficient conversations required for a "defense."
Anyway, when the truth started to surface about Gaines, I saw so many similarities that it was quite frightening.
We are still members of Bella Vista and by extension, members of Bellevue. We have been members of Bellevue long before Bella Vista even existed.
This is just one more example of the nonsense that Belluevue leadership hashes out to their members in the quest for power.
housewife,
I read that article as well...very eye-opening, and yes, scary. I'm sorry for what you've been put through. I pray that soon, the Lord will intervene and put an end to the abuses that are being heaped upon His people who dare to disagree.
financeguy wrote:
"It really doesn't matter. There was never anything informative on there anyway. Except of course for all the current Bellevue polices with revision dates of November 2006."
As members, we all received hard copies of that, less the update, but it was nice having it online for our visitors. Did anyone happen to capture a copy of the update part?
NASS
Bellevue's State Charter says>>
Due notice of any election must be given by advertisment in a newspaper, personel notice to the member, or a day stated on the minutes of the Board Of Directors 6 months preceding the election.
There we have it. If you look on savingbellevue.com, under featureed items, then under Church Government, then click on "state charter.
This is what must be referenced concerning "any" election at Bellevue.
If due notice hasn't been given any of the 3 ways stated above, then it has not been handled correct and sould be voided.
This is the language in the Bellevue State Charter that we should enforce.
financeguy, ez,
Thanks for the info on the Ponsi Scheme. Does sound rather...squirrely.
Statecharter,
Would you please email Nass and ask for my email address. I'd like to discuss something with you when it's convinient.
Thank you for the info.
Best,
Josh Manning
Couple of questions.
New BBC Open Forum said...
maybejustmaybe,
Those are interesting questions, many of which I've wondered about myself. However, a word of caution. Let's not drag the Rogers family into this discussion. Just try to respect their feelings and act accordingly.
Thanks,
NBBCOF
8:27 AM, December 13, 2006
Question for NBBCOF: Are you implying that you felt my questions were disrespectful to the Rogers family in any way, or were you just cautioning me in case I decided to "go there?" I assure you, I meant absolutely no disrespect to Pastor Rogers or Mrs. Rogers or the family.
Then there was Mom4:
MOM4 said...
mjm,
You seem to be looking for something to justify your position of support for the Gaines administration. Perhaps you just need to sit back and wait before you start making accusations you know nothing about, especially about the Rogers' family. I suspect that maybe you are part of the Gaines' family??
I wasn't making accusations, Mom4. I was asking questions, questions about financial policies and practices in our church -- some of which you answered very nicely, and I thank you. And no, I am NOT a member of the Gaines family. I am not paid staff. No one has asked me to come here and post on Bro. Steve's behalf. I have no agenda.
I just feel, in the spirit of seeking truth, we need to have pure hearts. The questions I asked this morning were not intended to malign, but instead to perhaps get us thinking as to why all this "mess" might have gotten to where it is today? Is this just a continuation of practices that began years ago? Honest, objective questions. That's all. Please don't accuse unnecessarily. I'm not a bad person just because I love and support my Pastor.
mjm,
Agreed that there are definitely some problems with the way financial decisions and disbursements are made. Some I'm sure that were in place before Dr. Gaines came. Much of this is due, imho, to the fact that our by-laws are pretty much "in the air" for all practical purposes, which leaves administration with a carte blanc means of doing pretty much whatever they want without being called to account. That not only goes for financial matters, but in all matters pertaining to the church. Without any checks and balances in place, and a tight inner circle of leadership which has held powerful positions in the church for a period of years, with little or no change, is a recipe for trouble. As always, imho.
Thank you allofgrace. I also hope the Lord will intervene. The article gave me chills. Our thought were, 'that's exactly what happened.' I left before everything in the article came to pass. But enough happened, several points in fact. And others went through worse.
<*)))><
mjm wrote:
"Question for NBBCOF: Are you implying that you felt my questions were disrespectful to the Rogers family in any way, or were you just cautioning me in case I decided to "go there?" I assure you, I meant absolutely no disrespect to Pastor Rogers or Mrs. Rogers or the family."
Actually, I was cautioning others who might go there. We've heard a lot of "Dr. Rogers did it that way" comments that (1) weren't always factual and (2) were irrelevant since he's not here to defend himself. Also, the Rogers family has been through quite enough without being dragged through anything here. No problem with your questions. I've wondered about some of those same things myself.
New BBC Open Forum said...
mjm wrote:
"Question for NBBCOF: Are you implying that you felt my questions were disrespectful to the Rogers family in any way, or were you just cautioning me in case I decided to "go there?" I assure you, I meant absolutely no disrespect to Pastor Rogers or Mrs. Rogers or the family."
Actually, I was cautioning others who might go there. We've heard a lot of "Dr. Rogers did it that way" comments that (1) weren't always factual and (2) were irrelevant since he's not here to defend himself. Also, the Rogers family has been through quite enough without being dragged through anything here. No problem with your questions. I've wondered about some of those same things myself."
To Everyone,
I also in no way meant any disrespect to the Rogers family! I and my family love them and miss Adrian terribly!! I'm so sorry to have given that impression.
Karen said:
bin,
email me - Don Ware asked me to give you a message privately. Thanks!
Sorry I missed your message yesterday. There is now an email link address on my profile.
bin,
You have email! :)
karen
While the pastor took a step or two in the right direction there is still a long way to walk... Here are a few important changes that would help during these days of crisis in leadership:
I. Pastoral Accountability to the Congregation:
1. A business meeting in accord with Matthew 18 to deal with the issues that remain related to Mark Sharpe and "the Dream"... and any other loose ends that should have been dealt with months ago!!
2. The giving records of the membership and the ministers on staff at Bellevue should never be for pastoral review in any shape, form, or fashion.
3. No church credit cards.
4. An admission Dr. Gaines should have never given $25k to FUMC and an explanation of policy changes to prevent a repeat.
5. A policy for open books on Holy land trips and no overcharging of members. Free tickets for the host and wife are fine but not for anybody else.
6. Full disclosure of ministerial compensation: salary + benefit breakdown, etc.
7. Timely removal from office of ministers guilty of sexual immorality with immediate and timely coordination with the appropriate authorities if any laws have been broken by a minister (no matter how long ago), including thorough investigation of the matter when the minister’s conduct may have affected other church members or their children.
II. Congregational Church governance:
Some of the congregation has awakened to the reality that our church has a set of "lay-elders," a close knit group of men who manage to be appointed to key positions year after year. The rest of the congregation needs to be awakened.
1. Those who are part of this lay-elder "power block" need to step down from positions of influence for a long time. Bellevue needs “new blood” in these key positions.
2. There needs to be the signing of a public conflict of interest form for any member that has any business contract to provide services for the church. These people should not be allowed to serve on committees that review bids for their services.
3. Congregational nomination of and election of all of the Board of Directors as called for in the 1929 bylaws.
4. A quarterly business meeting with open mike Q&A with each committee chairman. **The current bylaws mention "monthly" business meetings! When were they changed??
5. A good updated set of bylaws similar to GBC.
6. A transparent committee selection process.
7. Much greater congregational oversight of the current budget with a transparent policy for consideration of non-budgeted expenditures exceeding a reasonable amount.
8. Thorough communication with the Congregation for ANY capital project well in advance of any vote. Building prayer buildings or any other type of building should be brought through proper channels to the congregation for prayerful consideration--not coerced "rubber stamping." [By the way, Dr. Rogers taught us quite a bit about prayer. As a matter of fact, I believe all of the current buildings ARE prayer buildings already. He and Dr. Whitmire also taught us quite a bit about worship also... but that's another topic].
9. Bellevue needs to reject Warrenism fully and finally.
10. Higher standards should be put in place for the hiring of "ministers." Seminary training should be considered a normal prerequisite.
III. Treatment of ministers on staff at BBC and members:
1. A whistle blower policy for ministers, staff, and members.
2. The end of heavy handed dealing with ministers, staff, and members; and the end of signing non-disclosure statements. All ministers who have been pressured or asked to sign such non-disclosure statements should be released from them in writing by BBC! Former staff should be allowed to address the congregation and/or the deacon body either in writing or in person without any fear of reprisal regarding their exit from BBC. Gaines has confessed to mishandling Dr. Whimire's exit... The congregation now needs to hear from Dr. Whimire--and several others--by letter or in person IN THEIR OWN WORDS. The congregation needs to know how their leadership has treated and is treating ministers who leave the service of our Lord through BBC.
3. Forgiveness for those in leadership who have allowed this to deteriorate to this point--AND consequences for their actions.
All in my opinion as usual.
We are to be “providing things honestly in the sight of all men” (Rom. 12:17). Revival, reform, congregational oversight... for there is level ground at Calvary and "he who would be great among you shall be the servant of all."
as usual 25+ you are 100% correct with your comments.
Thanks! Karen
25+yrs@bbc:
AMEN! AMEN! AMEN!
Keep posting it! Keep on with it until it soaks into everyone's head who reads this wonderful list.
25+,
Keep up the good work.
When you get a chance, would you email me? I have a few questions for you.
westtnbarrister@yahoo.com
WTB,
You've got mail.
Ezekiel said...
"Folks, we are being urged to not ask questions, follow our leaders and obey their demands."
The next time someone urges you to not ask questions please ask them to square that policy with Scripture. According to 1 Thessalonians 5:21, we are to "prove all things, hold fast to that which is good."
Anyone else see a problem with a no questions policy?
AOG,
The mice need to run faster, so far no mail...
WTB,
check your yahoo account.
AOG,
I did (several times). You might go with the backup. Yahoo must be bogged down. It will show up eventually, but we may be amidst Christ's millenial reign by that time.
You just can't get good free stuff anymore can you?
25+ -
I appreciate your comments posted at 10:52 A.M. concerning steps being taken in the right direction. Under Pastoral Accountability to the Congregation, is #7 new on your list?
WTB,
Just forwarded it to the backup account.
1 Peter 3:21 "To the elders among you, I appeal as a fellow elder, a witness of Christ's sufferings and one who also will share in the glory to be revealed: Be shepherds of God's flock that is under your care, serving as overseers--not because you must, but because you are willing, as God wants you to be; not greedy for money, but eager to serve; not lording it over those entrusted to you, but being examples to the flock."
sheesh..make that 1 Peter 5:1-3
Psalm 43:3 wrote:
"25+
I appreciate your comments posted at 10:52 A.M. concerning steps being taken in the right direction. Under Pastoral Accountability to the Congregation, is #7 new on your list?"
It is a new item...
It reads:
"Timely removal from office of ministers guilty of sexual immorality with immediate and timely coordination with the appropriate authorities if any laws have been broken by a minister (no matter how long ago), including thorough investigation of the matter when the minister’s conduct may have affected other church members or their children."
And this item needs immediate attention from S. Gaines. So there is no mistake... this thing is known far and wide by now due to the fact that leadership has not handled this properly at all. This is the "scandal" vaguely referenced on the SavingBellevue site. We need to pray for Bellevue! There is no excuse for the many weeks of delay in this matter.
25+ said...
And this item needs immediate attention from S. Gaines. So there is no mistake... this thing is known far and wide by now due to the fact that leadership has not handled this properly at all. This is the "scandal" vaguely referenced on the SavingBellevue site. We need to pray for Bellevue! There is no excuse for the many weeks of delay in this matter.
May God bless you for your courage to bring this back up. We really do need to pray for Bellevue, but also the people involved in this scandal. If it all comes out, there will be no going back. God, please help us!
Karen
WTB...
I sent you a note via yahoo. When the mice catch up I'll look forward to your return note.
25+
aog,
I looked up your scripture reference because sometimes I just don't get it - The Message version of that passage says:
1 Peter 5:1-7
1-3 I have a special concern for you church leaders. I know what it's like to be a leader, in on Christ's sufferings as well as the coming glory. Here's my concern: that you care for God's flock with all the diligence of a shepherd. Not because you have to, but because you want to please God. Not calculating what you can get out of it, but acting spontaneously. Not bossily telling others what to do, but tenderly showing them the way.
4-5 When God, who is the best shepherd of all, comes out in the open with his rule, he'll see that you've done it right and commend you lavishly. And you who are younger must follow your leaders. But all of you, leaders and followers alike, are to be down to earth with each other, for—
God has had it with the proud,
But takes delight in just plain
people
6-7 So be content with who you are, and don't put on airs. God's strong hand is on you; he'll promote you at the right time. Live carefree before God; he is most careful with you.
cool, huh?
Karen
Let's just face it.
There are two schools of thought here;
One is to keep on doing things like they are currently being done. Accept that there are a handful in control and be satisfied with whatever decisions they make right or wrong. The only thing that makes this different than a dictatorship is that you aren't killed for leaving.
The other is to update our by-laws to allow more congregational control and governance. For crying out loud, we don't even elect the deacons that aren't allowed to vote on anything right now.
The majority of people in our church believe that have the idea that at our deacon meetings, ideas and issues are presented. Then the deacons deliberate and debate and come to democratic solution or agreement. !! WRONG !!
The deacons are presented with whatever issue or idea is brought forward, they are not given the opportunity to express any opinion or deliberate and they stamp approved on whatever the item may be.
They are involved in none of the decisions affecting our church. The deacon position at Bellevue is merely a figurehead with no power.
Tim,
Did you get my email?
Bellevue has a minister who has been on staff for many years who, while serving on staff at Bellevue, sexually molested and sodomized his own pre-teen son and continued for some time thereafter.
The son is now of age and he confronted his minister father and the minister confessed in front of witnesses at the church.
Gaines has known about this for well over a month and little to nothing has been done. Gaines said that it was "under the blood."
While that may be true, it still does not relieve the minister of consequences in this life. If he would do such a thing with his own son, then perhaps it would be easier with someone else's. Usually this kind of thing can involve many other children.
To make matters worse, this minister has been over the record keeping for children's workers for quite some time.
This is far bigger than some private, family sin. Gaines should have removed the minister from Bellevue the MOMENT he found out about it.
Ministers of Bellevue have been removed in the past for adultery... how could Gaines have thought that incest and sodomy were not as serious?
God is cleaning house at Bellevue... The membership needs to wake up! It is time to stop all the standing ovations and get down on our faces and seek God.
Mothers of Bellevue find your voices and fathers of Bellevue find your courage! Your leaders have been quiet and spineless.
It is way past time for light and truth.
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