Extended prayer meeting tonight at 6:30 at church. Streaming video should be available here. Audio is available here and here.
FOX Channel 13 is supposed to broadcast interviews with David Matlock and Josh Manning at 5:00 p.m. today. They said to stay tuned for more coverage at 5:30, and they may rerun the story at 9:00 p.m. More information is available here.
Channel 5 is scheduled to broadcast interviews with Mrs. Rogers and David Brown at 6:00 p.m. They may rerun the story at 10:00 p.m. More information is available here.
Be sure to tune in!
Channel 3's coverage is here.
The Commercial Appeal's coverage is here, here, and here.
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479 comments:
«Oldest ‹Older 201 – 400 of 479 Newer› Newest»David,
I gave you a list and your response was: Well, it's just not true!
Please let me know the timestamp of the post from when I said that. Thanks.
FinanceGuy,
What's exceptionally sad is that those OUTSIDE the church walls — Leno, for instance — have no trouble understanding.
ace said...
Astounded,
Okay, so besides a Wednesday night, when would a good time to measure attendance? The following Sunday? That would be New Years Eve, though...so the next?
I would be very interested to watch the trends. I would say keeping a tab from noe to March should be interesting. However I so not believe the attendance wil drop significantly.
Thanks. And I'm sorry if you think I am angry at you...I'm not. You people here don't make me angry despite what most of you think. Nonetheless, I think I've offended you. Will you forgive me and accept my apologies?
No apologies needed. I took no offense. I just wondered if my post was misunderstood.
You are free to believe as you like. But for anyone reading this post, I stand by all my posts and I support Steve Gaines.
Until you become convinced otherwise, you should.
As far as my personal views, I could no care less about the locks being changed, the climbing of fences, or any questionable credit card charges. If true, I agree with Steve Gaines that the were mistakes of the head.
I cannot supoport a man that would allow a child rapist to hold his staff position for 6 months, and I do not need to see the results of an investigation to know that it is true.
CH said...
FinanceGuy,
What's exceptionally sad is that those OUTSIDE the church walls — Leno, for instance — have no trouble understanding.
I'm continually amazed that I'm so in the minority on this issue. Does anyone else see that the Emperor has no clothes?
David,
(And I pointed out that 6 wasn't even being contested... it was admitted to, but you don't agree with it?)
You said earlier: I gave you a list and your response was: Well, it's just not true!
I'm failing to see where I said that. I guess you were just putting words in my mouth, right?
If I don't 100 percent agree with something, that could also mean that I 99 percent disagree with it...so don't jump to conclusions.
OK PIGlet,
How much did Adrian earn? Huh? You don't know do you? And what proof do you have that Steve earns 500K p/y.
Don't forget the possible files on PW that have been on hand for a long time.
Who said that Steve was trying to change us over to a Purpose Driven Church? Jim Haywood did. Did Steve say that. And even if he did, is that so bad. Did not Adrian encourage everybody to read Rick's book. And he had special classes on it.
I do admit that climbing over the fence was a foolish mistake. BUT! If one of your execs in your organization was undermining you and your administration and refused any efforts by Steve to talk, you would get frustrated too. You might even do something irrational.
If he had fired PW immediately back in June, who knows PW could have sued Steve and BBC for slander and libel. Steve probably figured that "well the church has known about him for some time and if they don't think he is a threat then I will watch him, pray for him, and let God tell me what to do about this later.
I know that this does not prove anything, but you can't prove anything either.
Ace/Astounded/whomever
Sunday morning worship is down significantly...perhaps 1,000-1,500. That fact can be easily verified, but it was in the "Bellevue Today" a couple weeks ago to the discerning reader.
What's interesting is that even with the exodus to GBC and elsewhere, Sunday School attendence is steady to up. This speaks volumes IMHO. New people are joining SS, but aren't necessisarily going to Worship, or "oldtimers" are going to SS, but not going to Worship.
Everyone write letters to the President of the Southern Baptist Convention asking for Steve Gaines to resign.
I feel really sorry for Dr. Gaines and the staff at Bellevue. I think Dr. Gaines understands that he probably should have handled this situation differently and even said as much on Sunday morning. To think that these "members" truly feel they are doing the Lord's work by running this site is alarming.
Lies and gossip from this blog destroying Bellevue?...hmmm...from what you guys say we're just a small minority of troublemakers and malcontents...how could we possibly be strong enough to destroy Bellevue? Besides aren't you guys the ones who are so discerning that you should be able to just see past all this and move on?...we just come here and talk about issues. Just continue your standing ovations, patting each other on the back, giving the ole "thumbs up" and hitting that "hate-filled gossip" key on your keyboards...pretend none of this is happening..that should do it...it's been working for you so far.
David,
I agree, but write your letters letting him know what is going on. Who knows, maybe he will suggest resigning to Steve.
Bellevue Friend said...
I have a sincere question.
Does anyone blogging, really believe that this blog or the saving Bellevue site would be running, would there have been any articles in the Comercial Appeal, or a Seminary President calling for the resignation of:
Ken Whitten
James Merrit
Kie Bowman
Ronnie Floyd
Mac Brunson
if any of them had been called to Pastor Bellevue?
bellevue friend,
You must be new here.
You are dealing in hypotheticals. Ace has much to say on this subject...ask him. Actually, he refuses to answer hypotheticals, so asking him won't do any good.But since you brought it up, If they behaved toward us the way SG has, then i say a big "YES".
Don't think I don't understand you just accused the blog administator, Jim Haywood, Dr Spradlin & Co of lacking integrity, and that this is just a personally motivated "lynch mob". You show your lack of understanding on what's going on here.
David,
It appeared your argument was that you did not feel those were valid concerns. Am I correct?
When I said I was not 100 percent behind those things I was saying I disagree with the way they were handled....sorry for the confusion. Yes, I believe that Steve Gaines should have acted upon the knowledge 6 months ago, as Steve Gaines has already admitted that. Regarding the donation, I support it...but at the same time, I believe it could have been spent in other places and been more productive with the funds...and I could go on...are you getting my point?
Ask,
Every pastor in the southern baptist convention that has internet access knows what is going on at bellevue...
"Steve probably figured that "well the church has known about him for some time and if they don't think he is a threat then I will watch him, pray for him, and let God tell me what to do about this later."
You guys crack me up...so Steve has a direct pipeline to God now for what to do? From God's mouth to Steve's ear eh? Good grief, listen to yourself.
Wark Wiley
These hardly qualify as lies and gossip.
Craig Parker left his job in finance at Bellevue over Gaines highly inflated salary and misuse of BBC accounts.
Jim Haywood posted Rick Warren's toolbox on his website so we could all draw our own conclusions.
I don't care if the files on PW are 100 years old - ask Tenn. state lawmakers what THEY think of sitting on information like that?
Climbing a fence out of frustration? Yeah, okay, I might HAVE done that myself. I don't know - don't care. I didn't have to forgive Dr. Rogers every Sunday for all his mistakes during the week. If we're going to hire a pastor and pay him a huge salary I hope he's more qualified than I am, for heaven's sake.
You don't require much from a fella before following along behind him, do you?
I'm teaching my own children to be more discerning than that.
Hey allofgrace,
You need to change your screen name. There is "No Grace" with you. We are all supposed to have a direct pipeline to Abba Father and if you don't then you need to quit posting on here.
David,
So don't you feel the mishandling of the PW matter is pretty serious stuff?
When did I say that? Of course this whole issue is serious... I never said it wasn't.
Mark,
Sorry, I didn't misspell your name on purpose.
repost:
Napoleon said...
Is anyone familiar with the "secret list" that Bellvue has maintained for the past several years? It was kept under lock and key by its caretaker Paul Williams. Anyone of any "questionable character" who became a member of Bellevue was placed on this list. Anytime an individual volunteered to serve in any capacity within the church, their name was flagged, and the caretaker (PW) unlocked his list to see what, if anything the individual had been blacklisted for. If the ministry area fell within the confines of what they had been accused of(not necessarily guilty of), then that person was not allowed to serve in that area. Any takers?
11:03 PM, December 17, 2006
I got an today email with information about a "list"...
> Would you please send this out to our class encouraging each one to pray for Bro. Steve and Bellevue. Also, encourage each person to call the church to give him their support. I was told today that they are making a list of those who call regarding their love and support for Bro. Steve. They will show this to him and hopefully, lift his heart.
> Thank you.
(name withheld)
What do you think of this?
Wiley,
My "direct pipeline" to God is His infallable word...you know..the book that has the instructions? And I like my screen name tyvm...it's the title of a book...All of Grace...CH Spurgeon..ever hear of him?...it's about salavation...you know..being all of grace? I post here because I like to..you're the one who seems to hate this blog...which begs the question...why do you blog here?
I was told today that they are making a list of those who call regarding their love and support for Bro. Steve. They will show this to him and hopefully, lift his heart.
The list isn't for deciding who is for or against our pastor and going to be kept on file, but instead to let our pastor know there are people who support him and are praying for them.
David,
Do you think the mishandling is serious enough for the Pastor to step down?
Honestly? No. He made a mistake, he admitted it was a mistake, he has my forgiveness.
And I know you will disagree with me, so you don't really have to reply arguing back to me because I know where you stand. :-)
The list isn't for deciding who is for or against our pastor and going to be kept on file, but instead to let our pastor know there are people who support him and are praying for them.
I called today and added my name to the list that I was praying for SG. The lady that I spoke to was very sweet. I alos apologized to her for having to answer all of the phones from both sides, I know she never expected this
I am sure I will be accused of being judgmental again or simply ignored as I am most of the time, but I am very sad over what Steve Gaines did in this situation (I don't feel there is anything to be gained in arguing the others at this point).
But the only thing that has brought me to tears is to watch some people here attack each other with so much sarcasm and so many cruel words. If you don't think what is happening here tonight is damaging the family of Bellevue please take a minute to read through here again. I am not saying it is the same as what he did but two wrongs do not make a right.
Just think through your words and consider if you would say them if the person was sitting next to you in the sanctuary.
Wiley,
Go back and read my 11:45 post...3 quotes from your posts...sound grace-filled?
Back in late Aug or early Sept. is when I first found out about all this turmoil. After spending hours on Jim's blog and reading all the hatred that was being spewed, I called Gardendale and spoke with a prayer counselor. I asked him point blank if they were glad or sad that Steve had left. The man already knew about the turmoil here in Memphis. He emphatically said that it was a great loss for them and they missed Steve immensely. It did not sound to me that Steve was a bad man.
And use logic for just one minute instead of "Salem Witch Hunt" mentallity. Do you honestly think that Steve approves of pedophiles? Of course not! I'm telling you we are missing some facts here and probably being mislead by some malicious people.
Oh, I just remembered. There was an issue about Colonial Country Club. Bellevue has had the membership for years and nothing was said, because no one questioned Adrian. Steve doesn't even play golf. But the LIARS made it sound like he had to have a membership there.
I'm telling you. You all are being played like fools.
Hey "GraceLess"
I'm not the one claiming to have all grace. You do. And you are a coward not to post your name.
StillWaiting,
My question is....how can someone truly support Dr. Gaines in light of the recent events?
A lot of the issues surrounding this whole ordeal (CC being misused among other things) have been proven as lies. So when you are are saying recent events I'm going to be referring to the P.W. issue.
Had Gaines not admitted sitting on this information for 6 months was incorrect on his part, you would probably be seeing a different side of Ace right now...or I probably wouldn't even be here. But here's the deal...he acknowledged a mistake was made...he understands that he was wrong. Can we not offer him forgiveness in this situation? It was an honest mistake.
Are you supporting the person or the position?
Define the position you're talking about please then I will answer this question.
But when people say that they support the pastor, what are they supporting?
Our pastor has been attacked constantly over the past few months. A lot of what has been posted has been lies and gossip (you have probably realized that). When I support Gaines it is because I don't believe the gossip that is going around because there are facts that dispute the so called "evidence" that is going around...it's as simple as that. Gaines has made some mistakes, sure, but haven't we all? His life is under a microscope right now and no matter what he does he just can't do anything right for most of the people here. When I support Gaines, it's because he has asked for forgiveness when it's needed and etc. If he has been ignoring the issues, again...that would be a different story.
Sorry if this post is confusing. Feel free to follow-up with another question if you need me to clarify.
Please hear my sincerity. Thanks.
Sorry about that last line...that was part of Stillwaiting's post, not mine in case someone else reads it!
Hey grace,
I blog here because I am tired of you people trying to destroy a godly man. And I will stand up and fight for him.
ace said...
David,
Do you think the mishandling is serious enough for the Pastor to step down?
Honestly? No. He made a mistake, he admitted it was a mistake, he has my forgiveness.
Ace
Does this mean that we as Christians should forgive PW and allow him to remain on staff as long as he gets up in front of us on Sunday and says "sorry"?
Wiley..no one has the corner on grace....salvation is all of grace...your own words are pretty graceless....we're "fools", "satan", "haywood worshipers"...we can't think for ourselves...again..listen to your self...ace disagress with us too...but he's not calling us names..not to my knowledge.
to everyone calling this Haywood, NASS, this blog (and presumably Dr. Spradlin) the "tool of Satan", Remember the little dustup we had a few years back called the "Civil War"? Just as there were Godly people on both sides of that dispute, you should know there are Godly people on both sides of this issue. We are still brothers and sisters in Christ, dispite this disagreement, and we should address each other with this in mind. You need to tone down the hostile talk. One day, we may all know who each other is. Keep that in mind when you post.
To take a suggestion from an earlier blogger (I don’t remember who) this will be combined response to a few different posts.
First, my thanks to the precious people who have supported and defended me tonight. I’ve been out to dinner and figured I’d have a mountain of stuff to respond to (never anticipated questions about my love life, but then these are strange days), but when I logged on I saw that you guys had take up for me. Thank you dear friends.
Now, MJM. I know where you’re going with this. You’re going to say, that I said words mean things, and then you’re going to cite my use of “our” regarding children (and women?) in the interviews. Well, MJM, you know as well as I do that “our” has an obvious use as a collective adjective, eg our comrades, our friends, our country, our ideas. The use of “our” on a collective sense in every way comports with the idea that “words mean things.” Now, regardless of whether or not you accept my contention on “our,” your attempt to hold me to trip me on my own statement painfully overlooks the use of “hate” that I referred to. And, to answer your question, no I don’t have any children. As for how many women I have, well I’m also a practicing Mormon so I’m working on a vast progeny to populate another planet. ;-)
Faithnhope, you’ve made a comment that you can in no way substantiate. Though my word may not carry much weight with you, I can fairly authoritatively—being the only person aside from the Holy Spirit with access to my own mind—let you know that I’m not consumed with hate. In fact, I don’t hate anyone. Words mean things, FNH. Hate is something that in no way comports with anything I’ve done.
Trustandobey, you share your nom d’blog with a wonderful song. Another song that could be based directly on Scripture would be “Try Every Spirit.” While I admire your use of the question mark and exclamation point (not to mention the ellipses), I’m not a fan of answering questions that look like fodder-elicitors. If you’ve got information about something like that, you should come forward. Ju, I don’t think TNO was implying that I’m gay. I think this was more of a baiting question. If TNO was trying to imply that I’m gay, then that’s an especially tasteful little slam from the other side that I will offer up to the Lord as something I should count as gain. If I suffer for Truth, for Righteousness, for doing what He asks of me, then that’s fine. But, I choose to give TNO the benefit of the doubt on this one (and in case he was, then I’ll ask him to overlook the French I used just above and refer him to the mormon comment in the MJM section of this post). =)
MarkWiley, I’m not sure who the “he” was you used in your post regarding myself and Mr Haywood. For my part, I was just interested in getting my thoughts out on the issues—deacons, staff, and Dr Gaines raised. That evolved into my take on current events at the church, and eventually into how things were being handled . Also, it’s dubious to conclude that those responding to the pastor “started” anything. By definition doesn’t “started” refer to the prime mover? The one who began things? Doubtless that was Dr Gaines when he acted irresponsibly on multiple fronts.
Hey grace,
I did not call any one person a fool. I said ya'll were acting like fools. And for the rest of it. I stand by what I said. Ya'll have been deceived by Satan and ya'll will not rest until a godly man is destroyed. That is ultimately what Satan wants.
And instead of distracting, answer some of the false accusations. Start with Colonial Country Club. Or are you one of those "don't confuse me with the facts" person?
FinanceGuy,
Does this mean that we as Christians should forgive PW and allow him to remain on staff as long as he gets up in front of us on Sunday and says "sorry"?
Whatever P.W. has done, yes, you should forgive him. Should he remain on staff? It depends on what the investigation reveals. If most of what has been posted here is true, then no, he should be gone. But I won't answer that for sure until the investigation has been completed.
Mark Wiley said...
Or are you one of those "don't confuse me with the facts" person?
I'm one of those "your actions are speaking so loud, I can't hear a word you are saying" people
Ace,
you have email.
Ace,
Then you are either inconsistent, or you believe that people should be held accountable for their actions while in leadership.
And since you won't say what the line is, I can only assume it's a shifting one depending on who is being held accountable.
Hey custos,
You speak in riddles. Talk normally. And when all of this started back in the summer, you have to admit that there was a whole lot of knit-picking going on. And if you don't admit it, then God help you. All of your knit-picking created doubt. Then it escalated into outright hatred. And the anti Steve crowd will say they have no hatred, but I don't believe it. And you or Jim did CENSOR my posts. What were you afraid of? And if you are Josh Manning then why did you start this garbage and then run off to college a couple of weeks later? You left us with a wounded church and you destroyed the reputation of Steve. I think that is extremely callous and evil.
Finance,
You just don't understand me, I guess...if that's the case, then don't address me anymore. You know exactly where I stand on these issues so you really don't need to ask me anymore questions.
You are just asking me questions in order to use it as an argument against me and I don't appreciate that.
BePatient,
Reply sent!
Hey finance,
WTG. You proved me right. "Don't confuse me, uh, uh, I'm thinking."
Mark,
And if you are Josh Manning then why did you start this garbage and then run off to college a couple of weeks later?
You know, I was wondering the same thing. And yet when the media gets involved and the TV cameras are on, then he's in town and gets on TV. He hasn't been here for the past few months so he really shouldn't be speaking like he is all-knowing.
I wondered why they did not talk to someone that supported Gaines as well
Well Ace and Memphis,
I guess all the "witch hunters" have gone to bed. I guess I will go too.
David,
It does not matter to you that there is a strong possibility that some people at church knew about PW long before Steve got there. Does it? When the WTCs were brought down 8 months after GW took office, the Satanic, I mean Democractic, Party actually accused him of having foreknowledge of the attack. Don't you see the parallels.
Mark Wiley said...
David,
It does not matter to you that there is a strong possibility that some people at church knew about PW long before Steve got there. Does it? When the WTCs were brought down 8 months after GW took office, the Satanic, I mean Democractic, Party actually accused him of having foreknowledge of the attack. Don't you see the parallels.
And what parallels might those be?
Mark,
You've got email.
And kindly refrain from calling us "witch hunters", if you don't mind. It's a cheap shot, and it's really not doing you any good.
CH said...
Mark,
You've got email.
And kindly refrain from calling us "witch hunters", if you don't mind. It's a cheap shot, and it's really not doing you any good.
I fear with Mr. Mark you will just have to consider the source. Reading into his posts it is quite clear his intentions. He has already stated he is "mad". He perceives this blog as a personal attack on Mr. Gaines and, instead of handling this perceived personal attack in a Christlike manner, he is picking up his sword and slaying the dragons.
I appreciate posters I might disagree with such as Ace. They attempt to illustrate their allegiences without personal attacks.
But, then again, God also has uses for the hotheads.
Wiley,
I'm not confused...country club membership...my first post on that...months ago..."I'm still mulling that one over..I'm not sure if it's appropriate"...country club membership canceled..dead issue...anything else?
actually wiley you didn't say anyone was deceived by satan..you called someone satan.
Mark Wiley,
I didn’t mean to speak in riddles. I know there are a couple of typos in that post, but I don’t think those obscure the meaning. I’ll be glad to try to clear up what’s indecipherable if you’ll let me know.
I’m not sure what knit-picking you lay at my feet. Feel free to go to my blog and look for knits I picked at (the bylaws aren’t knits, the idea that the leadership won’t tell us the direction Dr Gaines has for the church isn’t a knit, nor was interviewing one of the men at the core of the controversy a knit). And speaking of that blog, read my posts regarding any deleted posts. You’ll find that no posts were done away with based on ideas. The prupose behind the deletions is that many posts had crept in that were filled with bilge. The fact that you’re speaking to this makes me think that you’ve not even bothered to read the reasoning behind those deletions. Your accusation of fear over posts is rather hollow given that Mr Haywood and I have opened ourselves to enormous criticism, as demonstrated here. If we were afraid, then we’d never have done this.
I can assure you that I am Josh Manning. What might make you doubt that is beyond me. I didn’t start anything (yet again, someone is failing to actually take up a point and argue it (that of a prime mover in the person of the pastor) and instead is appealing to repetition of a debunked point). Further, I left for grad school because that was where God was directing me. I’m not entirely sure how my geographical location affects my standing. Would you care to clarify? Finally, it’s interesting that I am the one credited with wounding a church and destroying a man’s reputation. How can asking honest questions and citing Scripture (scrupulously contextualized) be said to destroy anything that is worth keeping?
Truth can destroy, but it only destroys that which is unworthy of saving. A corollary question might be: Can concealing facts, telling questioners to leave, and breaking the law do anything but wound a church and destroy a reputation? What has happened to Steve Gaines’ reputation has happened at his own hand, not ours. Yet our asking for answers and accountability is enough for some to decry us as shedders of “innocent” blood. Such reasoning is beyond my admittedly limited ability to comprehend.
Best,
Josh
Josh, thanks for answering my questions. I was bothered that in your appearances on the news channels you used the terms "our women" and "our children" when I was under the impression you had neither at this time. No, I was not calling your sexuality into question. Actually, it was nice to see your face -- if I were my daughter's age, I'd probably say you're cute.
But since words mean things, as you have so succinctly stated, please refrain from using the literary "our" when referring to things that are not yours. I'm not trying to be overly nitpicky here -- it's just that you stood and spoke so eloquently for the news media and may have portrayed yourself as something you are not -- a) a husband and father, and/or b) someone who speaks on behalf of those of us who are married and have children.
You do not speak for me. The protection of my children is my responsibility -- not yours, or Bro. Steve's, or anyone else's. Someone said earlier this evening that they would never again let their children walk the halls of Bellevue unless one of their parents was with them. Well, sounds like wise counsel to me. I've never allowed my preteens to "roam" unsupervised in ANY church I've attended. With or without known child molestors in our midst. That's just good parenting in my book in this day and age.
But back to my point -- you do not speak for me when you say "our women" nor for my kids when you say "our children." I do not agree with you on most points. And your deliberate use of the collective pronoun could have easily been replaced with a more accurately simple "women and children" or "other people's women and children."
When all of this is over, I wonder if you will be finding another camera to which to play, or will you be satisfied with your 15 minutes of fame and move on to something more worthy of your time. Or, will you find yourself disfellowshipped from the church you love so much, whose grounds could be so clearly seen behind you on TV as you held your interviews and maligned our pastor -- and will you perhaps be recovering from that disfellowshipping as you try to raise funds and prepare arguments to fight the personal defamation suit that should, by all rights, be coming your way?
Yes, I'm glad to finally be able to place a (cute) face with your name, but I am still not at all impressed by your words.
maybejustmaybe said...
...and will you perhaps be recovering from that disfellowshipping as you try to raise funds and prepare arguments to fight the personal defamation suit that should, by all rights, be coming your way?
I take it from your statement that you would approve of Dr. Gaines filing a lawsuit for defamation against Mr. Manning.
Could you quote me the Bible book chapter and verse that advocates one Christian filing a lawsuit against another? The only verses I can find advocate exactly the opposite.
As long as we are discussing legal options, I think you should be grateful that many of these "bellevue haters" have taken 1 Corinthians 6 (see below) into account and have not taken the church to Chancery court for the many issues in which the church is delinquent, notably the failure to follow their own bylaws. The issues that have been mentioned could have easily ended up in court as we all saw happened with Mississippi Boulevard Church.
1If any of you has a dispute with another, dare he take it before the ungodly for judgment instead of before the saints?
2Do you not know that the saints will judge the world? And if you are to judge the world, are you not competent to judge trivial cases?
3Do you not know that we will judge angels? How much more the things of this life!
4Therefore, if you have disputes about such matters, appoint as judges even men of little account in the church!
5I say this to shame you. Is it possible that there is nobody among you wise enough to judge a dispute between believers?
6But instead, one brother goes to law against another—and this in front of unbelievers!
If there is no defamation suit against Josh Manning, it will be because once again, our Pastor chooses to extend GRACE and not take him to court over his comments. I believe he certainly has grounds after watching Josh's limelight moments on all the news channels. Now a disfellowshipping? That would, indeed, be a matter to be kept within church walls and handled privately.
maybejustmaybe said...
If there is no defamation suit against Josh Manning, it will be because once again, our Pastor chooses to extend GRACE and not take him to court over his comments. I believe he certainly has grounds after watching Josh's limelight moments on all the news channels.
No, it would probably be because Dr. Gaines would choose to be obedient to God's word as laid out in 1 Corinthians 6. Unless you are suggesting 1 Corinthians 6 does not apply to pastor Gaines.
maybejustmaybe said...
Now a disfellowshipping? That would, indeed, be a matter to be kept within church walls and handled privately.
Yes, a much better way to handle the situation....Retaliation in lieu of grace.
I am beginning to see the big picture. Dr. Gaines spoke last night of forgiving. Remember? He said it should be easy to forgive since Christ forgave all of us.
Maybejustmaybe wishes for law suits and disfellowship of a member. No grace or forgiveness here.
Mark Wiley is "mad" and proceeds to berate posters on this board because they are "trying to destroy the reputation of a godly men." No grace or forgiveness here, either.
Grace and forgiveness are traits that are devoid in many of these fervent Gaines supporters. I purposefully omitted Ace from this because I personally see the godliness in his posts.
pinker socks said...
maybe,
Gaines would never take Josh to court. Everything Josh said would be proven under oath and Gaines would be out of his SPIN ZONE.
There will be no law suits. Regardless of his past mistakes, Dr. Gaines will not ignore on instructions so clearly laid out by Paul.
Thank you for more judgment from the anti-Gaines camp. I'm not surprised.
And pinker? Sorry to burst your bubble, but defamation of character has everything to do with damage done to a person's reputation by the words of another. The burden would only be on the part of the plaintiff to prove that significant damages were incurred by someone getting on multiple TV broadcasts and saying that said plaintiff is a liar, intimidator, lawbreaker, has committed financial impropriety, and is "harboring child molestors." The defense of, "It's all true!" wouldn't be worth very much in defending the one who spoke such defamatory remarks so publicly. And no, before anyone challenges that -- I am not saying any of it is true. I'm just saying the truth or untruth of the statements does not apply when proving or disproving defamation.
As far as my willingness to forgive, that is between myself and my Lord. He knows my heart and you don't. If there was an apology that the actions made by Josh yesterday were wrong and if there was repentance, then that might be pertinent to the discussion. Personally, as I've followed the remarks of "custos" on this board and others, I don't know that I have ever seen him apologize for much of anything he says. Others of us (on both sides of the issues) have regularly delivered apologies to one another for attitudes, words spoken in haste or anger, etc. Josh just takes on his next opponent with another volley of his impressive wordsmithing. It is clear to me that he is promoting dissension among the brethren and that much of the impending split in our church can be credited to his quest to do just that under the auspices of "bringing truth to light" and "standing firm." Applaudable actions, but for questionable motives. Time for disfellowshipping? Hmmmm ... good thing that's not my decision.
I feel like we are in old testament times when the Israelites slayed and murdered the prophets because they didn't like them speaking out the truth and pointing out their sin. Woe are we when we call evil good and good evil. We protect the guilty and crusifiy the godly and innocent. We fire the man of God and keep the sinner. Rid the chruch of the spiritual discerning and keep the flock that stays in the darkness and manipulate them. UNBELIEVABLE What havoc has been brought to not only Bellevue but now sg is going to destroy the seminary and bring it down, whether by default or directly. SG if you really loved the chruch you would leave! Look at the mess you have stirred up!
Without exception every sg follower has added not one good thing to this blog except excuses for sin and reaons why the sins are ok or not so bad or someone elses fault. They all fight and defend their leader sg. It is sickening not to have them defend the truth for once or even see it. The Bible said that pride blinds you and now I see it in action before my eyes and it is most frightening.
I never thought I'd see the day when there was so little discernment and embracing of sin at Bellevue. as if that wasn't enough, the war and lashing out against the Word of God, and God Himself. Do you think for one moment sg followers that Josh or anyone else has pulled out of thin air what sin is? Look in you Bible and stop confusing what love and grace is with what God calls sin and demands us to deal with. How far you have fallen to even dare to call a "mistake" what God has called a PERVERSION. And yet you would rather destroy the chruch and now the seminary rather than give up the one you follow.
Let`s get this straight.
A minister comes to SG and confesses that he raped and sodomized his own son.
SG says ok, go back to work and I`ll keep your dirty little secret.
Then David Brown reads about a senior staff person who has committed sexually immorality and gets really concerned.
David cries out for information.
Favid contacts SG and asks questions and gets no answers.
Information finally comes to David from a source other than SG.
David reports the sex crime to the authorities at the department of children services.
David Brown calls Bellevue and finds out that Paul Williams is still there at work.
Ace gets David Coombs to call David Brown.
David Coombs confirms that Paul Williams is the minister who raped and sodomized his son and says he has been placed on leave with pay.
David lets David C. know that Paul was at work the day before their call.
David C. says the church is investigating the matter.
DCS makes a visit to Bellevue.
SG tells the church an investigation is underway and Paul W. is on leave with pay.
So, if you are a confessed pedophile Bellevue says now now, take some time off and relax at our expense and let us investigate this.
If your confession turns out to be true we may have to let you go.
If you have raped anyone else we want to know about it so hang on and take your pay until we know more.
We just aren`t ready to say what we are going to do until we really get involved and see if your confession is accurate.
BELLEVUE USED TO BE KNOWN AS A FAMILY OF FRIENDS, NOW IT IS KNOW AS A FAMILY OF PEDOPHILES SUPPORTERS.
I've not been one bit surprised by the way this whole situation has been handled...if you've been paying attention you could have guessed it fairly easily. What does astound me however, is how loud the cry is for "grace" to be extended to PW...and his victim has been all but forgotten. Either there is a severe misunderstanding of grace, or there's a willingness to sacrifice whatever and whomever for the sake of Dr. Gaines and the rest of the leadership. It's strange how your sympathies lie with churches who support homosexuality and abortion, ministers who rape their own children, ministers who trespass, etc etc...all in the name of grace. Yet you have no qualms about coming here and pronouncing judgement against everyone here, calling us satan, speak of disfellowshipping us, calling us hate-filled gossipers, etc, etc. For folks who believe so strongly that grace is universal, it seems to be applied very selectively by you. I guess I'd rather be hated by you than accept your ideas about grace.
In law, defamation is the communication of a statement that makes an express or implied factual claim that may harm the reputation of an individual, business, product, group, government or nation. Most jurisdictions provide legal actions, civil and/or criminal, to punish various kinds of defamation.
No, I'm not a teenager. And I'm not being pious. I apologize for sounding that way. I guess I'm just growing weary of the attacks on my church and my Pastor and the willingness of others to hang both out like filthy garments.
I heard SG say that Gardendale kept him on as their pastor even when he could not feed himself.
If anyone has any informaion on why SG could not feed himself, please post it.
Thank you for the definition of defamation.
Now I can see that SG and company have defamed many members of Bellevue.
The list is too big for me to write right now.
AOG -- I have plenty of sympathy and compassion for the victim of PW's abuse. I thought NASS had instructed us not to discuss him here. A desire to extend grace to PW as this unfolds, to continue to love him as a brother in Christ and see him restored instead of continuing to march in the parade to destroy his life DOES NOT MEAN that I do not care about his son! I care very deeply for him, and I cannot imagine the horror of what he has gone through.
I have not called ANYONE Satan. But I do think those who have made direct accusations in the media should be disfellowshipped if they do not apologize and put their shoulders to the wheel of restoring what has been damaged. This is my opinion -- I am not trying to be pious or self-righteous. I am also not speaking of those who were interviewed who expressed opinions about the situation -- only the ones who made defamatory statements that only served to stir this mess up even more. And I do not include Mrs. Rogers in those who should be disfellowshipped, before anyone goes there. She is a godly woman, and I love her dearly. I appreciate what she did to defend the honor and integrity of her husband, and I am sad that it was necessary. I have great tenderness in my heart for what she must be going through with all of this.
What kind of medication is SG on?
What is the name of his disease?
Myasthenia gravis. It's a form of muscular dystrophy.
pinker socks said...
In all of Gaines' whining last night, did anyone hear him voice concern for the VICITM? No, just the rapist! And he got a standing ovation for that?! What has happened to Bellevue???
I am afraid we are beginning to see the fruits of the incorporation of the Warrenistic Purpose Driven model into an existing Bible-literate church.
The Purpose Driven model is no more than a politically correct marketing tool used to increase membership and thus, revenue and influence of the leadership. Terms are sanitized. The lost become the "unchurched". This brings into the church theologically uneducated, what you might call "baby Christians" who follow the pastor with a blind allegience. As the number of these "baby Christians" grow. their allegience allows the pastor and the ruling elders to establish a vocal majority foothold.
The more charismatic pastors will actively solicit audience participation for an "Amen" to his statement and well placed pauses in his sermon allow for frequent rounds of applause.
I attended a purpose-driven church in this city for several years and have seen first hand how the operation is laid out.
The music is contemporary in order to appeal to the "baby Christians" thus continuing to increase their attendance.
Now the following statements are things that I observed in the purpose driven church that I attended. I am not accusing BBC of following this path. It is just somthing to be aware of.
Once the "baby Christian" population has been sufficiently grown, the influence of the mature Christians is diminished. when these more mature Christians voice objections, my experience has been that they receive an email that states something to the effect, "we seem to have reached an impasse that we cannot cross. I appreciate you convictions and pray that you can find a more suitable form of worship elsewhere. I have personally read some of these emails and the wording is nearly identical. It doesn't ask you to leave. It just suggests that you will be happier somewhere else.
I cannot comment on the switch to a lay-elder form of church government since this church had this style of government in place.
The next thing I noticed was the change in the message. Evangelism takes a back seat to missions, and church works. Membership to the church is only possible with the completion of a 6-week new members class. In the class, much emphasis is placed on identifying one's spiritual gifts. These gifts are recorded as part of the new members profile. Before one can become a member he must sign a contract vowing to finacially support the church and to serve in some volunteer capacity at least one day a month. If a member does not fill out a yearly pledge to the church, he will receive a letter from his assigned "caring deacon" reminding him of his financial commitment.
Purpose driven model churches are also very heavily influenced by high tech multi-media presentations within the church service. Clips of secular movies are shown quite often and sermons are based on the clip. Sermons will also be offered on Saturday evenings to grab people who will not attend on Sunday mornings. One of the favorite mottos of a purpose driven church is, "we don't shoot our wounded."
Sunday nights are reserved for special counseling events. You will find a wide range of classes at the church on this night. Alcoholic Anonymous courses are normal especially ones tailored to teens. The church I attended had some other specific courses. They included courses for battered wives, battering husbands, dads that no longer lived with their children because of divorce, sexual molestation victims, and Internet pornography addicts.
The most glaring omission that I realized under the purpose driven church model is the small emphasis place on the teachings of Jesus. I attended this church on a regular basis and I know that the pastor preached an entire 6 week sermon series and the name of Jesus Christ was never mentioned. The pastor never in that 6 week period told a single soul listening to his sermon how to recieve salvation.
I am not writing this as a forecast of things to come at BBC. But it may explain some things that are currently happening.
A couple of weeks ago I logged on and made a couple of comments which were totally from my heart and not "at" anyone. I got called a new ager, an emergent, had crystals, etc, etc. And, I was totally understanding what was going on at BBC.
I have been very leery to stick my toe back in the water after what happened to me last time.
So, being an innocent person who was a member of Bellevue, had a daughter baptized there, was a Southern Baptist pastor who stood with Dr. Rogers in the mid-80's, attended MABTS, honors Dr. Rogers as without a doubt one of the greatest men who lived in the 20th century, I do have to say that it is hard to understand the harshness and judgementalism. I believe Dr. Gaines needs to resign, but I can't imagine another man who would come there with the understanding that they could and most likely would be identified with those whose abrasiveness has been often demonstrated here.
allofgrace said...
To all,
Regardless of where you stand on this current issue, there are some realities that must be faced. In light of what has been revealed concerning PW, he must step down or be removed from his position permanently. Why? Because obviously he has a particular temptation in his life that has overtaken him. Is this sad?...of course...should BBC seek to restore him to fellowship and use whatever means it has to counsel, bring healing and restoration to him, his victim, and his family?...of course, I believe that is Biblical. Can he or should he be restored to his ministerial position?...no...why? Because God holds leaders to a higher standard. Whether you like it or not, it's just not possible. Are we all sinners?..yes...are we all capable of the same heinous sins? Yes...we never lose our capacity for sin in this life because we still carry with us the corruption of the flesh. But just because we all have the capacity does not relieve us from the responsibility of holding one another accountable. Do elders have God ordained authority in the local body?..yes..that is a Biblical concept..but with authority comes heavy responsibility and accountability. Over and over in the scriptures leaders are rebuked for sinfulness and leading the people astray. I pose a question...remember Jimmy Swaggart?..for a moment forget the doctrinal differences...if, for the sake of argument, you were a member of an Assembly of God church..would you want to sit under his leadership?..he is one who supposedly was restored to ministry...would you trust him?...regardless of whether or not he has repeated his sin, he has lost credibility. That is the sad reality of what happens when a leader fails morally. There are more warnings in the scriptures regarding sexual sin than any other...why? Because sexual sin causes more destruction than any other sin..marriages are destroyed..families are destroyed..reputations are destroyed..confidence is destroyed..and the Bible tells us we sin against our own bodies when we sin sexually. Look at how far reaching David's sin with Bathsheba was. David was never the same man again..Uriah was murdered, a child conceived in adultery was taken, David's own son took his wives and concubines in tents on the roof of the palace before all Israel, another son raped his own daughter, another son struggled his whole life with sexual issues, though he was given more wisdom than any other man in history, and at the end wrote in Ecclesiastes "all is vanity". A very sad end. An important question must be asked in this. Why is this particular problem so rampant within our churches' leadership? I have been close to a couple of men in pastoral ministry and I can tell you from that experience that vocational ministry is sometimes a lonely position..and leaders often feel isolated from the body because of the position and the responsibilities that it entails. Add to that, the current trend of putting leaders on a pedestal, and endowing them with great authority above and beyond scriptural warrant, with little or no accountability..and you have the recipe for failure and disaster. Leadership by plurality of elders is a Biblical pattern I believe...but the elders of a church should be nominated and approved by the congregation, not handpicked by a senior pastor...that way the wisdom, discernment, and giftings of the congregation are brought into these important decisions. There should be mutual accountability among the elders, between elders and congregation, and to each other individually. The problem I believe, is a result of poor church government...even a new set of by-laws..or for that matter, any form of church government, still depends on mutual accountability and integrity for it's success. Our first president, in great wisdom understood that our nation's form of government could only work for a moral people. So it is I believe with governing our churches. Just as our country can only survive as a moral nation with God as it's head, so it is with the church. From it's leaders to the congregation we must be submitted and loyal to Christ, who is over the church and all things. Think on these things beloved.
7:18 AM, December 18, 2006
Delete
mjm,
Does this post from 3 days ago indicate a lack of grace to you? Does it in anyway sound like a "march" to destroy anyone's life? If so point it out to me.
kingdomrevolution,
I believe, unless I'm remembering it wrong, that I apologized to you and asked your forgiveness...if I'm remembering it wrongly, then tell me.
I can be silent no longer after hearing and watching my church turn into something I don’t recognize anymore. My heart is heavy as our pastor (who I used to support) has completely destroyed what used to be a beacon of light going out into a dark world. Today, the light has been turned off and the cloud of darkness is growing.
Pastor Steve, please step down as our pastor. I heard last night a selfish man who wants what’s best for HIMSELF! Why does everything have to evolve around your desires? You pastor around your own desires. It’s always about you. Even in the reporting of statistics, you try to pump yourself up. I’ve seen in recent years a change in leadership that paints a picture of greed, power, secrecy, a focus on things other than Jesus, no clear direction, elitism, and pride.
Truth doesn’t matter any more at Bellevue from what I've heard in the past several weeks. Answers from our leadership in the Communications Meeting were packed with lies. The Communications Committee booklet (that our tithes paid for being printed and shipped to all members) was packed with lies. Pastor, you have lied repeatedly from the pulpit and in front of the deacons about Jim Whitmire and others with no sense of remorse or regret. It seems like lying flows so easily from your mouth and the mouth of our leaders. We don’t know what we can believe any longer.
If we are not going to be a church that stands for truth, I believe we should take the three crosses down. To leave them up is a mockery of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. We are at a crossroads in the life of our church. We are going to stand for truth or we are going to except lies and deceit. To proclaim to be a bible teaching, God fearing, Lord loving church and walk another walk is despicable in the eyes of our Lord. Pastors and Deacons are called to a higher standard.
Jesus died for the sins of the world. He forgives those who know Him as Savior. If you confess your sins, He is faithful and just to forgive you of your sins and cleanses you from all unrighteousness.
I am heartbroken.
Karen
It is Paul Williams fault for raping his son
It is Paul Willaims fault for not stepping down
There are others who stumbled into sin because of Paul Williams.
If is SG fault that he did not act on releasing Paul Williams when he did not step down.
And it is the fault of every person who knew this and did nothing.
There are levels of sin here, one built on top of the other.
This is a very sad situation.
NO ONE RESPONDED TO MY POST LAST NIGHT SO I'M GOING TO SHOUT THIS MORNING!!!!!! STOP TEARING EACH OTHER DOWN, STOP LOOKING FOR THAT ZINGY COMEBACK AND START LOOKING AT WHAT IS HAPPENING TO OUR CHURCH!! I DIDN'T STAND FOR THE OVATIONS LAST NIGHT BECAUSE I DIDN'T WANT TO! I AM CONCERNED ABOUT PAUL WILLIAMS SON AND WHAT'S HE IS FEELING RIGHT NOW! I KNOW WHAT IT'S LIKE TO BE ABUSED AND NOBODY SHOWS UP TO RESCUE YOU! LET THAT SINK IN FOR A MINUTE BEFORE YOU THINK OF THE NEXT THING YOU WANT TO SAY TO ME! I WAS ABUSED BY MY EX HUSBAND AND NO ONE HELPED ME! DO YOU FEEL THE HELPLESSNESS? THAT'S WHAT HIS SON FELT LIKE! IF YOU DO NOT SEE THAT THIS IS ALL ABOUT AN ABUSIVE FATHER RAPING, SODOMIZING AND HUMILIATING HIS OWN CHILD AND NOT ABOUT "US" VS. "THEM", THEN THERE IS SOMETHING SERIOUSLY WRONG WITH YOU! DON'T BLAME THE PEOPLE ON THIS BLOG FOR BRINGING THIS SHAME ON BELLEVUE. BLAME IT ON THE RAPIST - PAUL WILLIAMS!
I (OR ANY PARTICIPANT ON THIS BLOG) DIDN'T BRING THIS ABOUT BY BEING ON A BLOG. I COULD NO MORE BRING DOWN BBC BY TYPING ON A BLOG THAN I COULD KNOCK A HOLE IN BBC WITH A PEA SHOOTER!
CAN YOU HEAR ME NOW? THERE WAS A MOLESTOR/RAPIST AMONG US FOR 17 YEARS AND WE WANT TO SIT ON THIS BLOG AND DEBATES WHO'S FAULT THIS IS. IT'S PAUL WILLIAMS FAULT! GET IT??????
Karen Turk Marshall
blessme,
Don't let me confuse you - I had to delete and repost because I mentioned a name I shouldn't have.
Karen
AOG,
You did and so did the blog administrator. I acknowledge that. Thank you. I just want everyone to recognize how it comes across sometimes. I am sitting here 9,000 miles away. I have friends, even three who are deacons at BBC, and because of the role Dr. Rogers and BBC has played in my life, that it is important to realize that from a dispassionate, but deeply concerned brother.
Also, I have visited your blog site. I appreciated the reference to the audio sermons by Steve Hartland on Discernment and the will of God. I had to spend many hours traveling here in Thailand over the last couple of weeks and those messages helped and I also was edified (though I do have to say, Rev. Hartland's delivery is a little too sonorous might I say, but nevertheless edifying)
blessmewiththetruth,
Would you e-mail me, please? You can remain anonymous. E-mail address is in profile.
Thanks,
NBBCOF
Brothers and Sisters in Christ, where do you stand? I have asked myself this question almost every night as I waded through the arguments and words on this blog. Many have said that it is not right to question the anointed Pastor appointed to Bellevue. I can not express to you the guilt and remorse I feel when I consider all that this man of God has been through over the last year and the things I have considered, said, and blogged. Brothers and Sisters, where do you stand?
I have listened to messages laden in grace and garnished with scenes from a manger. The other night (SCT), as the angel Gabriel descended from the ceiling of Bellevue, my eyes welled as the story of our past and future hung above the sanctuary. I was left wondering – did he jump a fence? I have prayed and searched my Bible and fasted to cleanse my soul – I am left wondering, did he intimidate? I have spent hours monitoring the blog listening to those outraged over not being able to fairly and justifiably bring their concerns to the body of Christ called Bellevue – I am left wondering, have the people been heard? Is this an intellectual problem or is a moral one?
The reality is that I have been paralyzed. I have been rightfully asked to consider my own sins before taking the first step of action. I am truly humbled for all that I have been forgiven. This is not about hate. This is about being presented that Jesus Christ is Lord, and upon knowing this, making a stand in His name.
Brothers and Sisters, if we remain ambivalent ,do we stand for Jesus? As we walk with the Lord and consider the message, are we to be transformed to Him, with Him and in Him? What are willing to risk when we see habitual mistakes from leadership and I dare say the Pulpit? Do we let the pragmatism of those in office who oppress us with the law extinguish the Spirit that lives within. Dare we question? Do we remain puzzled as Leadership equates the blog to pornography and a small and limited rebellion? Why is there not transparency and openness?
To those who state that what is on this blog is rumor or gossip – I can agree in part. Gossip is after all something that is communicated by word mouth rather than first hand experience. Some of the behaviors on this blog have been very wrong. However someone reminded me that the very Bible that we read was passed along this very way for many generations. That is, by word of mouth. How can we deny this? Each of us becomes a witness based on the truth that rings within and the word that brings His life to our own personal temples. This is a personal relationship, one that no manly law can intrude or impose upon. If one truly looks, the truth lies within this mess of a blog.
I am left numb by this experience. And that is the problem. I have been afraid to question with conviction. I have been afraid to go forward in faith. I asked all those who are invested in the work of the Cross to pray for all those involved.
Lastly, there is more to this than personal sin. We all make mistakes. We are taught to hold each other up for we are family in faith. Unfortunately, the word that I go to hear strangely looks and resembles the world. Yes, there are moments when God speaks through our troubled Pastor – however, the light that shines is casting a shadow on the political posturing of this leadership, the half truths, cold and callous dismissals of beloved staff, messages designed to oppress rather than liberate, and a seemingly cold tribute to Pastor Rogers. I am heart broken, but this is not about me. This is more than personal sin. This is about benevolence and integrity from the Pulpit worthy of our Lord and Savor Jesus Christ. Pastor Gaines if we have hurt you or your family, I am truly sorry. But Pastor, your actions, whether from the head or the heart, have hurt this congregation. I pray for you and your church.
bellevue friend
My apologies. It's true that I'm becoming rather cynical about the motives of people nowadays and I'm finding it hard to keep up with the flurry of activity on here the past couple days!
You are correct, any of those men would have returned our love for them, and all this wouldn't have been necessary.
LibertyInChrist said...
SUBJECT:
STEVE GAINES REFUSES TO RESIGN TO A CHEERING ESTIMATED CROWD OF 500 AT BELLEVUE BAPTIST CHURCH
A FELONY HAS BEEN COMMITTED FOLLOWED UP BY A COVERUP OF THE FELONY AND THE CROWD CHEERS THEM ON? DON'T ANY OF YOU WONDER IF THESE 500 WERE HAND-PICKED? ISN'T IT GLARINGLY SUSPICIOUS TO ALL OF YOU THAT THERE WAS NOT EVEN A SINGLE VOICE OF OPPOSITION?
Steve Gaines refuses to hearken unto the appeal of Dr. Spradlin to resign. Note that there is no mention of the host of members of Bellevue calling for Gaine's resignation. Still no repentance on the part of Pastor Steve Gaines and now they want to go from the frying pan into the fire by working with FOCUS ON THE FAMILY on this crisis (another principality of psychological counseling).
David Coombs: "a self-imposed deadline of 30 days for this investigation" and report?" More insanity! Who in their right mind believes 30 days is enough time to resolve this and the final disposition? How is 30 days even their decision to make? So Mr. Coombs has grandchildren at the church he is worried about? If that's true then why did the staff continue to leave Paul Williams on staff? They should have thought about that before they allowed Paul Williams to continue on staff for months since June. This leadership has demonstrated NO WISDOM AND DISCERNMENT. You should have NO CONFIDENCE in these men! So Steve Gaines, the Personnel Committee and Mr. Coombs wants people to report to the foxes guarding the chicken coop? So who now wants to volunteer to become a victim a second time by confiding in these leaders?
Last night on the news, a 32 year old teacher was arrested for sodomizing her own son at a motel in front of her baby sitter and two other small children. This is a FELONY. She will get 8-15 years in prison plus a $500,000 fine if convicted. Now aiding and abetting or covering up a felony is also a crime (in some cases a felony too). Does this story sound familiar? How about $500,000? The story was reported on FOX News (National). According to the attorneys and prosecutors, the law makes the crime far worse when it is committed in a relationship of trust (teacher vs. student). This would also apply with pastor vs. parishner. So I don't think it is time to simply ask that Steve Gaines resign, but demand it immediately. It is high time to file a police report and formally charge BOTH Paul Williams and Steve Gaines. At least Paul Williams would then be arrested, like the teacher in Colorado.
Steve Gaines and David Coombs have laid down the gauntlet. It is now time for all of you to lay down the gauntlet publicly at a morning church service as well as all of you reporting this to the police and filing felony charges.
No wonder the Lord cancelled my flight yesterday because of snow storms in Denver and the Midwest, or there would be no way I would know this or be able to post this RED ALERT! Well you are in the storm of the Century, spiritually speaking, so I pray that you will all be equipped for it which by the way, will not pass in 30 days! These speeches by Gaines and Coombs could rank among the GREATEST SHAMS OF ALL TIME!
8:54 AM, December 21, 2006
Mark Wiley,
You have some serious problems. You are spewing hatred and venom that goes beyond the worst "anti-bellevuer" on this blog.
Perhaps you need to seek counseling..or get back on your meds.
rod Almondmartanti said...
Without exception every sg follower has added not one good thing to this blog except excuses for sin and reasons why the sins are ok or not so bad or someone elses fault. They all fight and defend their leader sg. It is sickening not to have them defend the truth for once or even see it. The Bible said that pride blinds you and now I see it in action before my eyes and it is most frightening.
That is hurtful and untrue. Go back and read every post I have written and tell this applies to me.
These forums are supposed to be about issues attacking the church not attacking each other.
I really challenge anyone here to go and read my post and tell me that I have not added one good thing or been prideful or not defended the truth. we may not agree on everything, but I have not attacked anyone and this is really hurtful. I have attempted to share the way I feel, ask for clarification, and always speak kindly.
Is Joe Jernigan supporting Steve Gaines on the Paul Williams incident?
Choice and Bellevue,
Merry Christmas:)
http://www.angelfire.com/in3/amazed/MaryDidYouKnow.html
Thank you Choice,
Merry Christmas to you as well! I hope to celebrate Jesus' birthday with you on Sunday at Bellevue.
Karen
PS: Sorry for yelling at everyone this morning, but BOY do I feel better! :) Take what I've written to heart - maybe you'll hold hands with me in the sanctuary as we celebrate Christmas together.
choice said...
"P.S. Isn't amazing to think that God has a book in Heaven with all of us saint's names in it?"
Amen and Amen.
Thank you for the Christmas Greeting and Thank you for your excellent posts. Have a Happy and Blessed Christmas from our home to yours! In Jesus Holy Name!
If Paul Willlimas had been a teacher at Evanelical Christian school, would the Bryan Miller and his board have left him on staff to teach our children because they wanted to keep his confidentiality?
What would the parents have done if they choose to keep his secret and teach?
Karen said...
"S: Take what I've written to heart - maybe you'll hold hands with me in the sanctuary as we celebrate Christmas together."
My heart will be there, but my hands will not. We will be worshiping at another church while ours is being cleansed. We need to be able to worship in truth and peace.
Love you girl! Have a good Christmas!
cjesus,
I sure will! I am anxious to meet your clan and introduce mine to you - if nothing else good comes out of this mess - I beleive I have found some lifelong friends who are grounded in the Word! To God be the Glory!
cjesus,
oops, pardon the typo - my keyboard has too much water on it these days..please email me! Thanks
bellevue friend said:
"I must say listening to the audio of the service last night, and the thunderous response to Dr. Gaines saying I want to stay...shocked me to the core. Are the people really so misguided, and uninformed?
A buiness meeting with a vote of confidence is critical, if the majority support Dr Gaines after all that has happened......I would in the words of Dr. Rogers saturate that place with my absence!"
Please don't let any of this, anything that comes from the lips of the leadership shock you! I am telling you this is already 'in the bag'. Pre-determined, pre-planned. Even to a vote if it is taken. And yes these people are all misguided. They are not uninformed...they are misinformed. You can know that rumors have been abounding for months on end about you people deemed to be the discerners, the resistors, the pillars...the 'leaders from hell', remember? There is no telling at what lengths the leadership has gone to discredit you good people! Don't forget any of this! Don't let the issue of Paul Williamms lead you astray...this is all symptomatic of the purpose driven movement/aka church growth movements. The Paul Williams incest case is something they hadn't counted on...but they are turning it around to suit their needs. Steve Gaines is having a 'pity party'...poor ole Steve Gaines...having to deal with this now on top of everything else. He is milking it for all it is worth. You people are going to have to take a stand inside the walls of the church. I would say a business meetinig, but they are the ones likely to call for a business meeting...at which time they will vote you all out. You may just have to take a stand and approach the pulpit. I had rather see you do that than to wish later that you had done that, if you understand what I mean. But I strongly suspect that when you do...the tides will turn on you. I strongly suspect that it will be you good people, the discerners, who will be turned out. And if it turns out that way, know that it is the 'church' that has been cast out...the 'the Body of Christ'. There are many of us, the resistors...those this has already happened to, out here who are behind you, who support you, and who are praying for you. We are not members of Bellevue Baptist Church...we are members of the Body of Christ who understand you. We are one. I pray that God will give you the courage to undergo what you are facing. And stand strong in knowing you are standing up for Jesus Christ. God bless you all...
imaresistor:
I hear you loud and clear! We keep getting new symptoms, but the original cancer is still abounding. Don't lose heart; things are still ongoing regardless of this new wrinkle.
karen
bepatient, you're right - I did paint with a broad brush. Not everyone of those backing the pastor labels the opposing arguments as "hate speech".
I should have been more precise in my words. Sorry.
Desiring to have a pastor's heart is great and wonderful; however, using that as an excuse to expose our children to the potential acts of an admitted child molester is inexcusable and just more evidence of the lack of wisdom this man has to lead this church.
To quote that great philosopher Forrest Gump: "Stupid is as stupid does."
Ed T.
Disclaimer: This may very well have been an issue ONLY involving PW's family 17 years ago, but knowing the recidivism rate for child molesters is high, who is willing to take the chance with their children?
MJM,
I’ll make a deal with you. I’ll stop referring to “our” women and children (in extemporaneous interviews) if you stop referring to “our” country. You don’t own the country, so for accuracy’s sake, let’s not have you ever use that term again. =) This is a tad absurd. I do take an interest in the protection of BBC children (much like you, I’m sure, take an interest in our country). The protection of the helpless is important in God’s eyes. I won’t forsake that simply because you don’t like my legitimate use of a word. Also, I didn’t purport to speak for you. There’s nothing in those interviews that indicates that.
As to the my purported cuteness, thank you. =) I’m never thought of myself as cute, but instead more like a love-able, harmless fluff ball. But again, thank you.
Also, I’m not sure where this business about 15 minutes of fame comes from. Folks, I DO NOT like the limelight. Any of my good friends can tell you that. I prefer to stay rather quietly to myself when it comes to important things. But there’s an interesting contention implied in your comment, namely that if one benefits from getting truth out, he should not pursue it because it might taint his judgement. The only problem with that is that getting the truth out there benefits everyone. Certainly there are people who use the spotlight for personal gain. For my part, I have no ecclesiastical ambitions, I’m not in law school, and if I ever ran for office it would be based out of Arkansas not Tennessee. Given that I don’t really like attention and the fact that is attetnio can’t really help in my career goals, this appeal to a conflict of interest falls flat.
I was not at BBC or anywhere near it when either of the interviews was done. You’re completely wrong.
I did not malign the pastor. Everything I said was incredibly accurate. His resignation has been called for before, for the same reasons I cited. He did harbor a child molester.
A defamation suit? That won’t happen. Following are defenses against slander/libel:
Defenses to claims of defamation include:
• Truth is an absolute defense in the United States as well as Canada. In some other countries it is also necessary to show a benefit to the public good in having the information brought to light.
• Statements made in a good faith and reasonable belief that they were true are generally treated the same as true statements; however, the court may inquire into the reasonableness of the belief. The degree of care expected will vary with the nature of the defendant: an ordinary person might safely rely on a single newspaper report, while the newspaper would be expected to carefully check multiple sources.
• Privilege is a defense when witness testimony, attorneys' arguments, and judges' decisions, rulings, and statements made in court, or statements by legislators on the floor of the legislature, or statements made by a person to their spouse, are the cause for the claim. These statements are said to be privileged and cannot be cause for a defamation claim.
• Opinion is a defense recognized in nearly every jurisdiction. If the person makes a statement of opinion rather than a statement of fact, defamation claims usually cannot be brought because opinions are inherently not falsifiable. Some jurisdictions have eliminated the distinction between fact and opinion, and allow any statements suggesting a factual basis to defeat a defamation claim.
• Fair comment on a matter of public interest, statements made with an honest belief in their truth on a matter of public interest (official acts) are defenses to a defamation claim, even if such arguments are logically unsound; if a reasonable person could honestly entertain such an opinion, the statement is protected.
• Consent is an uncommon defense and makes the claim that the claimant consented to the dissemination of the statement.
• Innocent dissemination is a defense available when a defendant had no actual knowledge of the defamatory statement or no reason to believe the statement was defamatory. The defense can be defeated if the lack of knowledge was due to negligence. Thus, a delivery service cannot be held liable for delivering a sealed defamatory letter.
• Claimant is incapable of further defamation–e.g., the claimant's position in the community is so poor that defamation could not do further damage to the plaintiff. Such a claimant could be said to be "libel-proof," since in most jurisdictions, actual damage is an essential element for a libel claim.
Merry Christmas to all of you!
This year has been less about the shopping, the gifts, the parties, the baking....with all that has transpired, I gaze upon our Christmas tree with more appreciation and thankfulness than ever before. At times the world seems like a very dark place. But the light of Jesus shines all the brighter. Praise God for His gift to us , for which we are in desperate need...
Emotions set aside......the question to consider is "who is accountable for the status of the local church?" If you answer the local pastor....it gets to a serious junction when it pertains to the current Bellevue situation. However, accountability becomes blurred by those who assume the position of being a "victim". Popular thinking teaches and promotes that victims cannot be accountable because circumstances are happening to them versus being caused by them. Biblical truth lies in accountability and not victimhood posturing.
Has anyone else noticed that Ace is basically agreeing with what we are saying, but his attitude is "So what?. We are sinners too"
I think that's the prevaling attitude of the people who stood up and clapped last night.
I'm glad this congregation continues to pour out it's love to this Pastor. It's the right thing to do. What's frustrating is how he returns that love.
1)Before he even gets here, he tells our long time beloved minister of music, called the "Dean of SB Music ministers" that he can stay under Jamie "If he's man enough". (We've all heard the rumblings that he showed less than deferential respect to Dr. Rogers, to put it mildly.)
2)Long time, Godly church members, sunday school teachers, deacons, etc go to him with scripturally based concerns, and instead of at least listening and appearing sympthatic to them, he dismisses them with "perhaps you should go worship elsewhere"
3)Staff members who've been widely respected, with long and deep roots at Bellevue, when they go to Pastor with their concerns (which as someone who doesn't know BBC, you would think he would at least be open too hearing), he tells them that "perhaps it's time for you to find another place of employment"
4)When finally so much pressure is brought that he's forced to respond, he gets up from the pulpit and misleads his flock with half-truths and ommisions. (Which have gotten so bad, he has to filter his statements to the congregation through legal counsel)
5)When the concerns get so great they can no longer be ignored, he sets up a "committee" to further put distance between him and the sheep.
Granted, he's apoligised for some of the above, but the damage is done. "you can't unscramble eggs"
If this Sheperd loves his sheep more than himself, he's got a funny way of showing it.
cjesusnme
When is the Sunday service at GBC?
Nobody said last night.
It would really do me a world of good to hear a choir under Jim Whitmire....
BlessMeWithTheTruth said...
Is Joe Jernigan supporting Steve Gaines on the Paul Williams incident?
It's not a matter if JJ is supporting SG on this, it's a matter that JJ cannot go off and start a business or walk off like other staff mysteriously did after meeting with the Biblical Guidance people early this year. He and others (DL) could ill afford to be without medical insurance as they have health issues.
Setting all emotions aside......the question at hand is "who is ultimately accountable for the status of the local church?" If you answer the local pastor..... it brings you to a serious junction regarding the current situation at Bellevue. However, today's worldly culture promotes and teaches that if you can place yourself in the position of being a "victim" you can never be accountable because circumstances happen to you versus being influenced or caused by you. Biblical truth has always rested in accoutability (individual & community)versus victimhood. Therefore we all find ourselves responsible for choices and not circumstance or environment.
Guys, I am just an average member of some 18 years that has tried to limit my voice to this forum. Steve Gaines would not know me from Adam. I am friends with some of the men in leadership but have no one on staff that I would call a friend. I am not a deacon, was asked but declined some years ago. I am sure that many who post on this board would not know me by name but my face would be familiar as I’ve been involved in a number of things at the church. I say all this to provide a perspective outline of who I am and where I am be coming from with my comments. I am not a Steve Gaines apologist but am only a lowly sinner yet saved by the grace of God.
First of all I agree that Steve Gaines has created most all of his problems. He has asked me to forgive him and I have. I do expect a higher standard for a pastor at Bellevue than what Bro. Steve has provided. My personal opinion is that he has allowed his ego and need to be right to override doing the right thing and making the right choices. I pray that God will guide him and he will seek out wiser consultation than he is currently getting.
My opinion on the savingBellevue.com site is that while it has provided some much needed communication it has also shown some irresponsibility in some of the postings and headlines. By the church withholding information it was inevitable that a website be created to allow for some dissemination of information. If the church had made effective utilization of the Communication Committee then the need for other outlets would have diminished. But I cannot overlook the mean spirited and misleading headlines which were posted on the site.
With regards to this blog I have taken the time to follow most of the postings on a regular basis. The postings have ranged from sincere concern to vile mean spirited attacks. While I will scroll on by much of the trash talk and meanness I must confess that it has left a distasteful thought for some of you. I have a difficult time understanding how we Christians can profess the love of Christ and accept God’s forgiveness only to tolerate some of the harsh words we write for the world to see. I do find it difficult when gossip outweighs the known facts. One case in point involves someone I’ve known at Bellevue since joining. He was the deacon who counseled my family when we walked the aisle. We are on a first name basis and I see him regularly at church where we will exchange a greeting but are not intimate friends. I come on this board to find that he has been accused of adultery by some. This is the type of gossip the Bible clearly says that we should refrain from. I happened to hear Dr. Laura (man, would she have blasted Bro. Steve on keeping a child molester on our staff) and she was pointing out how evil it was to gossip. The problem as she stated is that one day when that person has asked for and received forgiveness for their actions we are still left with the residual gossip. This is why is could be difficult for someone to seek salvation knowing that our mindset is to gossip about one another. I understand the consequences of sin but as those of us who are new creatures we would expect Christians to have an attitude of forgiveness. I am a friend of a former minister who was rebuked in front of the church by Dr. Rogers. I am aware of the consequences that sin has created in his life. He was immediately terminated and suffered both personal and financial loss. But I know his heart and he’s been forgiven for that particular sin. It will be difficult for some of us to reconcile ourselves if we continue to use hardened tones and harsh words.
May grace prevail on this board.
To add to my above list,
If there is any further evidence of the lack of love he has for the congregation, how about his "mistake" in allowing an admitted Pedophile to roam our halls with a position of trust because he "wanted to protect his confidentiality". I believe he loves PW, and he should. But he should love us as well. How can we trust him now to be on guard for the flock?
"Be on guard for yourselves and for all the flock, among which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers, to shepherd the church of God which He purchased with His own blood Acts 20:28.
Justmyopinion
While I will scroll on by much of the trash talk and meanness I must confess that it has left a distasteful thought for some of you
I repeat what I said earlier that you should all remember that you are talking to fellow brothers and sisters, whom they may one day find out who you are.
Although why some of you put your name on your hatefilled comments (Mark Wiley) is beyond my ability to comprehend.
cJesus,
You're too sweet. =) Dinner was a lot of fun the other night. I agree that we all need to get together again soon. Nass can get you my email address. Stay strong out there! God is in control, and who can tell what tidings he might bring in the next few days.
Thanks again. =)
Josh
To JMO:
Brother you could not have said it better. God Bless You.
justmyopinion: Your Dec. 21, 11:31 am post was wonderful. I think you hit the nail on the head and speak for MOST of Bellevue.
I have a legitimate question: Why is it that so many seem to be taking sides in this situation?(Gaines vs. Spradlin) "Go with me to Germantown; we'll show 'em. Spradlin is our hero." That seems very petty and childish to me. Spradlin has further drug Bellevue through the mud by making his personal comment to the paper that was read by thousands and thousands. He poured gas on the fire with his comments that were not necessary. Adrian Rogers would not have done that. Gray Allison would not do that. Why do his opinions matter so much? He does not have the corner on right and wrong. Believe me, I know from personal experience that he is not one who needs to be handing out advice at a time like this.
ranjikar
Spradlin has further drug Bellevue through the mud by making his personal comment to the paper that was read by thousands and thousands.
Spradlin would appear to be a hypocrite to the hundreds of student pastors he leads if he taught them one thing (deal with child molesting ministers in your church swiftly) and didn't make it very clear that the example across the street was the wrong one to set.
Back off of Dr. Spradlin. He's in probably the worst position of his ministry. He's known to be a Godly man of integrity.
ranjikar
Adrian Rogers would not have done that. Gray Allison would not do that.
First, you are in no position to speak for those two men.
Second, both of them have been quoted WAY more times in the paper over the years concerning the SBC, saying as harsh a things.
ranjikar
Are you kidding? I DO believe Dr. Rogers would speak out.
Here we go again - kill the messenger no matter how true the message.
A senator who was pro life brought in pictures of babies who had been dismembered in the abortion process, hopefully to wake up folks on the pro "choice" side.
As he expected, they WERE shocked and apalled - but NOT at the awful barbaric procedure of abortion. No, they were shocked and apalled that he would have the audacity to show such awful pictures. It did not change their mind on abortion - it only made them pass judgement on the messenger.
This is happening in our church.
I am convinced that this is a spiritual battle that must be won on our knees. MUCH MORE PRAYER,FOLKS! I'm talking to myself here.
The scales need to fall from the eyes of those who are condemning the messengers.
No argument will prevail where the deceiver has been successful.
Ok, I've changed my mind - I'll join y'all wonderful, cute, fluffball folks at GBC on Sunday! :)
Karen
Has anyone noticed a pattern to Spradlin's behavior? He lent his support to the opposition group at Germantown Baptist back in April. He gave them space in the seminary for free and publicly approved of their mission. The SaveGBC group, much like this one, won the vote, but lost the church. Germantown Baptist is now a hollow shell of what it once was - it has lost its vitality and its ministry, not to mention three quarters of its attendance.
Be careful what you wish for - Bellevue is not much different from GBC. Spradlin is now the interim pastor at GBC. Does no one see that as disturbing or ironic? Apparently he now has his sights set on the pulpit at Bellevue. Beware of anyone that creates division among the brotherhood, and anyone who publicly does what Spradlin did - make accusations and condemn a Christian brother in the local media - does not deserve your support. That is unmitigated sin.
"For the time is coming when people will not endure sound teaching, but having itching ears they will accumulate for themselves teachers to suit their own passions." 2 Timothy 4:3
ranjikar said...
Adrian Rogers would not have done that. Gray Allison would not do that.
You have no idea what they would have done - I do know that Dr. Rogers kept things in house and DEALT WITH THEM SWIFTLY thereby eliminating the need to go to the Commercial Appeal. Mrs. Rogers has stated that PW came to her and said Dr. Rogers did not know so you really have no legs to your arguement about what he would have done. He didn't know.
karen
Steve Gaines told us last night to call Paul Williams. Everyone, let's all call Paul Williams and ask him to resign.
Does anyone know his phone number?? I know many who now have told me that they are willing to call Paul Williams up and ask him in a nice way to resign. Hey, that's what Steve Gaines told us to do is call him.
Who has Paul number to put on this blog so we may call him?
Karen, I believe the point was that Dr. Rogers would NEVER have condemned a fellow Christian brother in the local media.
Calling for a resignation smacks of political maneuvering, not Christian love. Dr. Rogers would NEVER have been guilty of that.
My heart is broken with all this. To go to a brother or sister and administer justice is a sober thing.
We must stay in step with God and allow Him to use us as He sees fit.
We must be on guard against our own flesh and anger and sense of timing.
We must not be "Jonah" who wishes destruction on those who repent before Him.
We must be careful and pure in our own walk.
We must proceed faithfully in the power of the Holy Spirit, with tenderness, meekness and gentleness.
We must faithfully act in accordance with His Word and not stop until the job is done.
We must not fail and we must be on guard against our own flesh, this world and the devil.
We must march on and stand with our Lord but we must do this with Him being the leader and initiator.
We are His ambassadors – He is not ours.
I love you brothers and sisters.
Patrick
I really expected the headline inthe newspaper and TV news to read:
"Bellevue calls for the Resignation of Paul Williams"
Someone please Paul Williams phone number.
Call Paul Williams and ask him to resign.
Germantown Baptist is now a hollow shell of what it once was - it has lost its vitality and its ministry, not to mention three quarters of its attendance.
This is simply not true. I still teach and minister to the children in the class each week with enthusiasm. Praise God they are all saved, asking great apologetic questions and are memorizing scripture with enthusuasm and gusto. They are like little sponges drinking it all in. It would do anyone's heart good to see these little ones respect for their Bible and the truth it holds
Also, GBC has lost no where near 3/4 of attendance. The first service is packed, while the second service is way down. Not that that numbers are the only way to judge things.
Many of the people who no longer attend GBC have formed a new church and are also saving souls. Praise God for that and good for them. We should rejoice that there is now another new church reaching out in Germantown. We cut our budget by 20% (not 75%) and we are on target for the fiscal year.
Even if it were true GBC was a shell it would be inappropriate to gloat about such a thing as you have done.
I am back to lurking but wanted to set the record straight.
Sorry, I ment to say......
Post Paul Williams phone number on this blog so we may call him and ask to to resign
Steve, a phone number is very easy to get in the age of the Internet. I am sure you should be able to find it if you try.
Folks,
Mail out.
Steve, perhaps you should study what it means to biblically restore a brother in Christ. It's not a recommendation, it's a requirement.
Using Paul Williams in your political games is inappropriate, dangerous, and sinful.
Feom David Coombs sister-in-law
Several years ago, I had the opportunity to discuss the subject of wife abuse with the man who is now in charge of the investigation of the situation with Paul Williams at Bellevue Baptist Church. I remember his exact words because I was so surprised by them at the time. He said, "As Christians, we are all slaves of Christ without rights. A Christian wife cannot demand the right to not be hurt physically by her husband." It will be interesting to see what conclusions the Bellevue committee reaches concerning Christian children under this man's leadership.
I felt a responsibility to share this with people who may not have had direct experience with Bellevue leadership. I was saved at Bellevue and was a member for 14 years. I feel very sad about what is going on and has gone on there.
Sincerely,
Dottie Coombs
Good grief, Germantown Baptist Church is a SISTER church. I cannot believe someone would be so stupid to call it an opposition church. Come and think before your fingers hit the key board, better yet please pray and allow the Holy Spirit to guide those fingers. If you did that a whole lot of what is being said would not be said.
You all are really having a good time trying to destroy God's church aren’t you? The really interesting thing or should I say the MOST interesting thing to me is that 95% of you are hiding behind your "little made up to post in secret screen names." I can see the smiles on your anonymous faces and the froth on your mouths and hearts as you type your evil gossip seeking to destroy God's church. Some of you are so giddy while doing the will of satan and so eager to spew your venom that you can't spare even a few seconds to check your grammar! I have a name, my name is Brad Jobe and I have seen you kind of people before. Kind of like those who play gotcha politics. It goes like this; you don't like someone already, so you lie in wait, just waiting, waiting... and then they make a blunder.....BAM! GOTCHA!! You pounce like a rabid lion with satan at the reins! Ripping, snarling, laughing, and killing your long sought after prey. You seize the opportunity to destroy, besmirch, and ruin the character of a Godly man.
Do I like everything he does? No. Did Brother Steve make a mistake? YES! It was a stupid one too. But if it wasn’t that one, you people would have found another, and that is something that a majority of Bellevue agrees with me.
You post bible verses to try to bolster your point while at the same time you tear people down with cowardly anonymity. Where is the honor in that? Seriously? I have lots of verses I’d like to remind you of but you have thrown them around so callously it seems unnecessary.
One of you were so misguided that will calling for the resignation of Brother Steve you said you believed it was God’s will he came here! What!
If you get your way, and you may, I wonder how long it will take you people to find something wrong with the next pastor. Why don't you just go away if you think Pastor Steve is so bad? Take your perfect sinless selves and depart from us sinners.
Again, my name is Brad Jobe. Merry Christmas.
Experto Creed said...
Steve, perhaps you should study what it means to biblically restore a brother in Christ. It's not a recommendation, it's a requirement.
Using Paul Williams in your political games is inappropriate, dangerous, and sinful.
12:36 PM, December 21, 2006
Experto Creed,
Are you serious in your remarks above. SG asked us to call him last night. Who do you think you are telling me what to say to this man. I forgive but as a member I believe Paul Wiaaiams needs to go.
I dont hear you discuss contacting the victims to see how we may help them.
Again, Everyone, if you think Paul Williams needs to be forgiven but also needs to go, just call him.
2 Tim 4.12
preach the word; be ready in season and out of season; reprove, rebuke, and exhort, with complete patience and teaching.
1 Tim 5.20
As for those who persist in sin, rebuke them in the presence of all, so that the rest may stand in fear.
Rebuke is Biblical. Looks like even public rebuke is Biblical.
I would also say that for the facts that we all know, assume there are many more we don't know. So making assumptions about someone's character based on a limited amount of information is foolish.
Matthew 12.36
I tell you, on the day of judgment people will give account for every careless word they speak,
Think about this before you post, please!
Steve, my take is that SG asked us to call PW to love on him and try to restore him, not badger him to resign, I think there is a big difference between the two calls.
It would certainly not be Christlike to make harassing phone calls to the Williams home. Please think about what you are doing. The man has a family.
Colleen Crenshaw... DOes that name ring a bell with you?
Colleen was the lady who worked for Home Land Security in there immigration office.
At our fouth of July church celebration she would swear in the new US citizens.
Well, Colleen knew SG before he came to Bellevue and when she heard that he might become our pastor she told a few members that he was a man without INTEGRITY.
When he became the pastor, she left Bellevue.
I wonder what she knew about SG?????
C
brad jobe......
I am a reader of the blog. Not a participant. Altho a BBC member, I know no one on here and only very few at the church.
Whoever or whatever you are is at the same level as the rest of the posting group. In my opinion if you have any need to be credible, you have lost. You come across as a condescending jerk, just like some of the rest.
I really doubt that any of you, real name disclosed or not, are like this face to face.
Whatever social or Christian grace you have certainly gets clouded in the action blog arena. If not for the subject matter as a common point of interest, I don't think there would be much evidence here to prove you guilty of being a Christian.
And my name is....
Larry Mayall
Brad why on earth would you call Steve Gaines stupid while you rant and rave in judgement of others.
What a hypocrite you are.
The reason why so many people choose a blog name is because the leadership at Bellevue likes to PUNISH people in some very interesting ways.
Brad Jobe, your preacher friend likes to hurt people and so do a lot of your other buddies at church.
Brad Jobe, your pastor likes to play GOD instead of following him.
I just wonder how you could defend such actions from church leaders.
Ate you the Brad Jobe who ran for the State House?
O know the Bellevue Baptist constituency backed you (if you are the Brad I know) in your polical race for the State House, maybe you are paying them back with blind loyalty????
If you are the young republican that I think you are, should you run for any office, be sure to tell what you stand for so they can cast an knowledgable vote.
If you are not the Brad who loves to play politics, disreguard.
Brad Jobe
Nice to see you back today posting.
I thought you would have come up with something new to say. You still haven't checked your proper nouns.
I saw the statements Gaines made last night on the news. He seemed to be for the first time humbling himself before the congregation. If it is legit, then theres some progress being made on that front. While I say that, I still feel that Gaines must resign because of the magnitude of the indiscretion he committed by failing to alert the congregation about Mr. Williams. The lack of inaction put all of the children of Bellevue in danger.
I saw the statements Gaines made last night on the news. He seemed to be for the first time humbling himself before the congregation. If it is legit, then theres some progress being made on that front. While I say that, I still feel that Gaines must resign because of the magnitude of the indiscretion he committed by failing to alert the congregation about Mr. Williams. The lack of inaction put all of the children of Bellevue in danger.
Well put Brad Jobe! - finally someone has the guts and integrity to post the truth and not hide behind a nickname. Let's hear more. Don't let the "rabid lions" discourage your speaking of the truth and calling it like you see!
JMO, thanks for your 11:31 AM post.
My heart is broken as well over many things that have been said on both sides on this blog.
On the one hand, I have seen comments calling Dr. Gaines' supporters baby Christians, or comments saying that no true Christians could be accepting of Dr. Gaines.
On the other hand, I see posters demonizing those calling for Dr. Gaines' resignation, calling them witch hunters and hate-filled.
Myself, I support Dr. Gaines, and I have prayed about this and sought God's guidance and I believe Dr. Gaines should remain pastor at Bellevue. Many times I really struggle to see how in the world savingbellevue posters could have the opinions that they do, or what I see as a fault-finding spirit.
I know many of you who want Dr. Gaines to resign, on the other hand, are also God-fearing men and women who have prayed about this and sought God's guidance. Similarly, as I have seen from your comments, you simply can not understand how people could be so "blind" to the truth.
Brothers and sisters, I think we all must acknowledge that there are godly men and women on both sides of this issue. When we attack certain posters on the board, we are attacking people who were created in the image of God and who have real concerns and emotions.
As we approach Christmas, I hope we all can remember Christ's example and extend love and care to people on both sides of this issue.
It's ironic that Truthhound is the one who continually publishes known lies. Comments that I know for a fact before God are untrue. You will be accountable for placing comments on this site from a lying known mentally unstable women with an axe-to-grind like dottie coombs. She made up stuff about her ex (David's brother)to try to validate her divorcing him. She has been after David ever since he chose not to believe her lies and trust, love, and keep a relationship with his own brother. Any one who knows David knows that this statement could not have been made the way it was presented by this bitter woman. I guess this site is at the point of posting anything anyone says that is degrading the character of a leader of our church regardless of truth.
custos wrote,
Faithnhope, you’ve made a comment that you can in no way substantiate. Though my word may not carry much weight with you, I can fairly authoritatively—being the only person aside from the Holy Spirit with access to my own mind—let you know that I’m not consumed with hate. In fact, I don’t hate anyone. Words mean things, FNH. Hate is something that in no way comports with anything I’ve done.
Josh,
You shouldn't assume so much. Your word does carry weight with me since you're a brother in Christ.
What exactly are words? Maybe an outward expression of what's inside? Do you really not hate anyone? I don't believe it. That's not a biblical statement. David boasted that he hated God's enemies. Try to distinguish between emotional and volitional hatred. Then turn away from it.
Hatred doesn't care about tomorrow.
I'm not very optimistic for the future of our church if Dr. Gaines is removed by hatred.
whynotask said...
"Question to All on either side of this argument? What would you say to Steve Gaines if he was to ask YOU how he could restore all things at Bellevue? What advice would you give him today? What could he do today to restore our beloved Bellevue where it needs to be? I think of the old movie " SARGENT YORK " . Shows my age. That movie covers a multitude of evils and answers"
I wanted to ask Steve Gaines a question and called the church office earlier today. The switchboard (very nice) transferred me to Diane Mills(also very nice). I asked what they were doing, taking tallies, comments, whatever? Mrs. Mills told me that they were taking support calls and passing them on to the pastor. I told her that I had a question, but did not know if it could be considered one of "support" or not. I then told her that I had read everything that as been released, watched every broadcast on TV and online and at no time has Steve Gaines ever said that he had prayed over any of his decisions and that I felt that that needed to be addressed. Mrs. Mills promptly thanked me and hung up.
So that will be my question to Dr Steve Gaines - How much time have you spent seeking the Lord on the decisions you have made and did the Lord give you peace over your decisions before you acted upon them? I feel the answer to this question will be the tale-tale sign of what it will take to restore Bellevue.
AND Sgt. York is a wonderful movie!
Worldview Weekend, Christian Worldview Network
Bellvue Baptist Crisis Deepens
The problems at the church Adrian Rogers pastored have deepened this weekend with the revelation that one of the ministers there, Paul Williams, reportedly molested a young relative several years ago according to several sources.
Michael Reagan discusses Bellevue Baptist controversy surrounding one of their pastors on his national radio program.
The new pastor, Steve Gaines, around whom so much controversy has swirled since he took over last year, reportedly knew about the situation six months ago and did nothing. As the blog begun by members of the congregation began reporting on the shocking revelations, Gaines was forced to address the situation and announced yesterday that the church is investigating the situation.
A Christian Worldview Network reporter has personally talked to Mrs. Joyce Rogers, wife of the late Pastor Adrian Rogers. Mrs. Rogers has reportedly talked to Pastor Williams who confirmed that Pastor Rogers did not know about this prior to his death. This fact needs to be stressed because Pastor Gaines said before the church on Sunday, December 17, that Pastor Williams had been counseled by a retired staff member from Bellevue. Understandably, Mrs. Rogers and others want to make it clear that the retired staff member was not Dr. Adrian Rogers and that Dr. Rogers would not have allowed any pastor who confessed such an unspeakable act of sin to remain on the church staff for an additional six months much less 6 minutes.
What do we learn from these situations? That the evangelical churches across America are in serious trouble. The moral corruption from the top down is so endemic that I could limit my news blog at Slice of Laodicea to only sex scandal stories involving pastors and church workers and still have too much material to use. (I just posted earlier today on another executive staff member resigning at Haggard's church over immorality.) When you realize we are only hearing about the ones who are found out, it is chilling to ponder how much lurks below the surface in churches, undiscovered or deliberately covered over. One conservative Baptist church in our area currently has a pastor who was arrested at the library where my children and I spent a great deal of time. He was arrested for lewd conduct after he failed to show up at our WVCY studios to record his weekly radio broadcast. When I saw the police blotter in the morning paper and it said, "Baptist pastor arrested", I had a sickening hunch as to who it was. (The blotter didn't give the name.) I went to the police station and got the arrest record and, voila! The pastor who had repeatedly missed recording sessions at our station had been busy, doing other things, so to speak, in the library that my children frequented. I personally interviewed the library staff and the primary witnesses and have no doubt as to what the man was doing. He remains in the pulpit today, after convincing his church he was the victim of a Satanic plot to disrupt the church's building program. This is why these things continue--willful blindness, denial and in some cases, active cover-up. I can honestly say there is nothing I won't believe any longer when it comes to sexual perversion and the ministry. It breaks my heart to say that.
You can hear Pastor Gaines own statement by going to this link. The mp3 of his remarks will load and begin to play a few moments after you load the site:
http://www.savingbellevue.com/paulwilliams.htm
Truthhound - you conveniently left out the EX part before sister-in-law when identifying who dottie Coombs is. You know every trick in the book, don't you. You wouldn't dare to reveal your identity with all of your blunders here!
Rational said...
Truthhound - you conveniently left out the EX part before sister-in-law when identifying who dottie Coombs is. You know every trick in the book, don't you. You wouldn't dare to reveal your identity with all of your blunders here!
2:17 PM, December 21
Is Rational your real name or is it David Coombs?
FYI Dottie Coombs`s letter is posted at savingbellevue.com
I don`t know the lady but you certainly are giving her a word beating in public.
How do you know Dottie Coombs?
graceupongrace
I keep hearing this term "fault-finding spirit". I will never forget the message Dr. Gaines preached on this.
A week or so before, he had been speaking on authority, how it is ordained by God, and how we should not challenge it. Both my husband and I looked at eachother and mouthed the words "Nathan and David".
The sermon on faultfiding came from this very passage a week or two later. We were very concerned about the spin placed on this passage. Gaines said that when David was confronted with the sin of the man stealing a sheep that he was so outraged but blind to his own sin of stealing a man's wife. The idea is that we bloggers are pointing out the sin of Gaines while harboring sin in our own lives, I suppose.
It is interesting, that in that story he would have labeled Nathan a"faultfinder" just like he did Mark Sharpe. He skipped right over Nathan's faultfinding.
How many Gaines supporters would have told Nathan to mind his own business?
Please ask David Coombs why he believes it is appropriate behavior to for a leader of our church to purchase liquor for family members or anyone else?
I believe he needs to resign as well.
stillwaters,
Why don't you tell Jesus that it's wrong to drink alcohol? God created alcohol, and we can drink to the glory of God just as Jesus did.
Though you do have a point if you're saying it's hypocritical with our church rules to purchase alcohol.
Either way, something to think about.
As I visit this site and "saving"bellevue.com I become more and more sympathetic for those of you that continue to spread rumors and half truths. The website presents no hard facts and is based entirely on hearsay.
I venture over today and see that Dottie Coombs is making very serious accusations against her former brother in law, David Coombs. I would suggest to Dottie Coombs to provide proof,through writing or recordings to back up her claim.
What "saving"bellevue and this josh manning blog, fail to realize is that you as the accuser bear the responsibility to PROVE what you are publishing.
I've seen no hard evidence to show that Dr. Gaines or Bellevue leadership has acted inappropriate with regards to these matters.
Could things have been handled differently? Yes, Dr. Gaines has even stated that mistakes were made. For this blog and the website to try to tear down Bellevue and its Pastor is a disgrace.
I know josh manning, jim haywood, mark sharpe and others feel that they are doing a great service, that is what is truly scary. This group is so blinded by hatred that they have lost all compassion for Bellevue or its leadership.
Reading through all of this I have to ask how is it that so many of the Gaines supporters can be so supporting and understanding of Gaines who is supporting a minister who has been hiding under the disquise of a pedophile for seventeen years that we know of and yet treats a Godly man like Mark Sharpe like he has treated him? And Jim Whitmire? And many others? Seems he is protecting/upholding a man of dispicable character to those men in good standing? Help me out here.
lllllllllll
Stillwaters - David decided to pay for the bill when his entire family went to dinner not knowing that his sister at the other end of the table had ordered 1 glass of wine. Why would you try to tear down a godly man who unknowingly accidentally purchased 1 glass of wine!!!! You obviuosly do not know this man at all! Hey, I ask you to resign from whatever it is you do because I know you about as well as you do him, obviously. I guarantee this man is more strict on alocohol policies than 99.9% of those reading this including you. He has never even tasted a drop in his life and has always been as strict as possible on any issue that involves alcohol. However, you just want to spread dirt instead of researching facts. Shame on you! God have mercy!
If you have a problem with decisions the pastor has made then fine. I do to. But you folks will have to answer to tearing down the character of godly innocent men who only want to serve the Lord and heal our church! Shame! Shame! Shame! Shame! Shame! Shame!!!!!!!!!!!!!
graceupongrace
You did not respond to my 2:26 post. Would you be so critical of Nathan the prophet?
piglet,
I did not respond because I have read it over 4 times now and do not understand what you are trying to say.
600 WREC will be discussing this issue today at 4:00
I am so confused as to why some BBC members are holding so tight to SG. What will it take for people to realize that he has betrayed the trust of BBC members? What will it take for people to get their heads out of the sand and do research for themselves? If you take one sides opinion and go with it then you have no right to have an opinion until you reseach the issue. If Steve Gaines waited six months to share this heart breaking news then how can people not see that he's covered up other things? If the truth was being told through the leadership then why do issues keep coming up? The answer is that they're not telling the truth.When false things are brought upon a person it's usually revealed as non-truth after some time but when things keep coming up then you have to wonder what's going on? I think he should resign now!
I am not David, by the way. I know him well enough to know what I am talking about, I can promise you that. Dottie used to be a member of the church so many know her and her situation. David tried to save the marriage. He was much harder on his brother than he was Dottie. However, she didn't like the verses in the Bible that he led her to that talked about submitting to husband and against divorce. She took that as him taking his side only and not hers even though both most likely had some blame.
gopher said...
600 WREC will be discussing this issue today at 4:00
Yeah, the talk show host is Mike Fleming. You beat me to it, gopher. =)
confused:
What else is Dr. Gaines covering up? Where are your facts to support these accusations?
graceupongrace
II Samuel 12:1-25
Nathan was a prophet sent by God to confront David for his sin with Bathsheba. In other words, according to Dr. Gaines, he was a faultfinder.
Men of God in authority NEED to have sin pointed out in their lives. Mark Sharpe approached Dr. Gaines IN PRIVATE and in accordance with Matt. 18. Instead of coming clean and repenting like David, he resolved to cover his sin. Mark attempted bringing others with the proof (so many of you THINK he doesn't have) to meet together and resolve issues but Dr. Gaines would not allow the meeting to take place. That is how ALL of this originally started.
Gaines has things to hide. He is not ready to come clean. Mark Sharpe and others with REAL concerns and REAL proof are not faultfinders any more than Nathan the prophet.
This is all so sad to me. Our church has been so damaged by all of this being in the media and all the attention we have gooten from this. I think SG made a huge mistake and although I have forgiven him I think he must either resign or be very appoligetic to the congregation. I listened to the news and the clips on the computer and heard all of the hoopin and hollarin that people made. I dont think they take all of these things quite as serious as they should. These are serious and sloemn times for our church and we should have that type of air about us when announcements are made. The good name of church has been blemished and could take years to restore. If SG doesnt humbly apologize for all of his mistakes then he should leave.
Bereans said...
They are taking a (phone) POLL!
How do we know the count is accurate? I wouldn't trust them to give us the correct amount if it turns out that more people call for his resignation than for his staying.
How convenient.
piglet,
I think even those most set against Dr. Gaines would admit there have been things carried way too far on your side. The picture comparing Dr. Gaines to the Nazis; the false accusations of credit card spending at Colonial Country Club; and the downright silly rants about Dr. Gaines sending his daughters to a Calvinist school (ECS, which is a great school by the way), not preaching Wednesday nights, preaching set-up sermons on Sunday mornings, the list goes on. I think we all ought to examine our hearts and make sure we have the right spirit as God commands us.
Piglet:
You say Mark Sharpe has proof, where is it?
It doesn't matter if he humbly apologize. He still needs to resign.
Let me clarify. He DOES need to be humble and apologize. AND he NEEDS to resign.
He needs to do both.
OH yeah, take that pedophile off of the payroll!!! He shouldn't be kept on salary in any way. Investigation or not, it's already been established that he raped his own son. Why is that not enough?
billy,
I know a lot of these people you mention and they are not filled with hatred. They are gentle spirit filled men and women who love the Lord like you do. It sounds like you may new to the sight. I encourage you to go back into the material that is available and concentrate on what Steve Gaines has said with his own words. To me, this is the most damaging evidence of the problems we are facing at Bellevue.
It all boils down to integrity. I think all of the folks I know who love Bellevue, are interested in restoring integrity to our leadership. Steve is the one who told Gardendale the day he accepted the call that he was going to make a lot of changes at Bellevue. Steve is the one who told staff he was going to check their pay stub with their tithing checks. Steve Gaines is the one who has misled the church body on issues surrounding Jim Whitmire, David Smith, Rob Mullins, etc. Steve Gaines is the one who went to Union City and trashed his own sheep. If these alone were the only issues, it would be enough to show you the heart of this man. I pray that we can all agree that something needs to be done to restore Bellevue to a point we can all worship together again as One.
I pray this doesn't sound harsh to you. I believe you are interested in what's best for Bellevue as well. God bless.
piglet,
As an addenum, take a look at John 5; notice the things Jesus accomplished, and look at what the Pharisees attacked him for.
Jesus just healed a man and told the man to pick up his bed and walked, and the Pharisees said Jesus was wrong to do this because it was the Sabbath and you can't carry your bed on the Sabbath.
This is what is called a fault-finding spirit.
Dr. Gaines has done some great things at Bellevue, and yet many people are really nitpicking to try to find things wrong with him.
(Now, as I've stated before, the case with Rev. Williams is not a minor thing; however, even here, we see people truly nitpicking Dr. Gaines and Bryan Miller for things like their choice of words (mistake of the head; moral failure), not explicitly saying he prayed about his decision to say (does anyone really doubt he did pray?), and for making an honest mistake of not acting on Rev. Williams' admission earlier, which he has now repented for).
I'm not sure what the correct forum is to deal with all of these accusations. It seems to me that the only thing that will bring Bellevue back together is some sort of mediation between all parties, with a public audience. Get all the parties together in one place and air all the laundry, clean or dirty.
swtt:
I don't know the people personally that run these sites, but I do know that they are AT LEAST contributing to bringing a great Church Body to its knees.
Yup. Like I said, how convenient!
Don't forget that at 4:00 Mike Fleming's show begins on AM 600 on the radio and at wrecradio.com on the net. (Click on the link to listen live.)
He will be addressing the problems at Bellevue.
And to it's knees is exactly where it belongs. It never should have been as far upright in the sight of the world as it has become. Down on our knees is where we belong.
Rational said...
I am not David, by the way. I know him well enough to know what I am talking about, I can promise you that. Dottie used to be a member of the church so many know her and her situation. David tried to save the marriage. He was much harder on his brother than he was Dottie. However, she didn't like the verses in the Bible that he led her to that talked about submitting to husband and against divorce. She took that as him taking his side only and not hers even though both most likely had some blame.
WOuld you have any facts to back up what you are saying about Dottie Coombs?
It appears that she has stepped forward to be a first hand witness of her history with David Coombs.
I can`t just believe what you have said about her unless you can prove it and I would be very careful about slandering her in the fashion that you have.
I would like to thank you for confirming once again that David did purchase alcohol.
You say that he did it accidently.
Do you have any proof of that?
Maybe you could pursuade him to speak for himself and visit the blog and at least give us first hand information like Dottie Coombs has done.
graceupongrace
I DO agree with you that some petty issues have been raised. Not all the issues you raised, do I see as petty - for instance, I would have rather he just admit he had other speaking engagements on Wednesday night instead of letting us find out on our own that he's moonlighting when he should be being our pastor on Wed. Night.
That said, I will respond also to
billy
Mark Sharpe had testimonies of those on staff who approached him with concerns. This evidence was supposed to be presented with all concerned parties present but the pastor would not allow it. Wonder why?
To date no meeting has taken place (I believe this came up in May). I'm sure some staff are remaining quiet on this in order to keep their jobs until such a meeting becomes possible. Some staff ARE gone, but maybe you've already heard that staff sign "nondisclosure statements"on the way out the door. Sounds like Gaines has his bases covered, doesn't it?
swtt
You are so right. Before all this blew up, my husband and I saw and heard so much for ourselves that we decided to investigate the matters on the blog. We were tired of hearing, in our bible fellowship class, that it was all about the music - for months on end. If we only knew what WE have seen and heard it would have been enough to cause us to have serious doubts....but now we know more.
Tim,
Dear Lord say it isn't so. :(
I want to know why the pedophile is still on salary. What's the point? Does Gaines see him back on the job? Will he be doing the same job? What possible job will they give him?
After all of this, after the investigation, Gaines must think he can still bring this pedophile back on campus. Gaines must still have a place for him. What exactly is that place???
If not, there would be no need to keep this guy on salary during the so-called investigation.
I wonder if the purpose of the investigation is so Gaines can find out how much info the pedophile has on SG. I guess this way, SG can weigh the pros and cons of getting rid of this guy.
I know, I know. The willfully blind SG followers will ignore the first three paragraphs and concentrate on the 4th.
I am simply amazed at many of you who are so critical of us which have legitimate concerns about the leadership at Bellevue. You suggest that we are workers of 'satan' and 'evil.' And, you even attempt to criticize someone’s grammar and spelling mistakes – please tell me you have more of a credible argument than that! By the way, it would do you a far better service to read ‘what’ people are saying, rather than ‘how.’ Folks, let’s put it down, plain and simple:
WE, WHO HAVE HEARTFELT CONCERNS, ARE NOT EVIL, NOR ARE WE WORKERS OF SATAN. HOW DARE YOU CHEAPEN OUR CONCERNS WITH YOUR CHILDISH AND FOOLISH ENUENDO’S. WE DO, HOWEVER, SEE HUGE DISCREPENCIES IN THE PASTORAL LEADERSHIP OF OUR CHURCH. SOME OF YOU FEEL THAT WE ARE AGAINST STEVE GAINES – NO MATTER WHAT HE DOES – INCORRECT!! WE HAVE INVESTED OUR LIVES, OUR FAMILIES, OUR MONEY AND OUR PRAYERS IN THIS BODY OF BELIEVERS WE CALL BELLEVUE! WE LOVE AS MUCH AS YOU DO! WE BELIEVE THAT BELLEVUE DESERVES THE BEST FROM US AND THE LEADERSHIP! WHEN THE LEADERSHIP COVERS NUMEROUS THINGS UP, LIES AND MAKES ‘LIGHT’ OF ‘MISTAKES OF THE HEART’ AND HIDES THE FACTS BEHIND A CHILD MOLESTOR AND RAPIST BEING ON STAFF – THEN I CAN’T SEE HOW YOU CAN DEFEND THEM – BUT THAT IS ON YOUR CONCIENCE, NOT MINE!
I believe that we all need to look at the FACTS!!! I would think we could all agree that it is the FACTS that should count - not our opinions, likes or even our dislikes. With that said, let’s remember the FACTS or even more grammatically correct the TRUTH:
(1) SG dismissed Jim Whitmire for NO reason and he lied about it - remember he said it was Jim's decision and it was not, AND waited a year to even apologize-- FACT!
(2) SG has given himself and his newly appointed staff member’s huge salary increases ($500,000.00 for his first year of service!) when Dr. Rogers only made half of that after 30 years of service - FACT!
(3) SG used church credit cards for his own personal use! Bellevue lost Rev. Craig Parker because he knew what was going on and could not, in good faith, stay there under SG's leadership - FACT!
(4) SG has publicly insulted the members of Bellevue Baptist Church on more than one occasion - remember being called 'kooks'; remember Union University; remember 'Hezbollah?'- FACT!
(5) SG willing gave $25,000.00 to a church that does not have the SAME doctrinal values and practices as Bellevue, and in addition, PROMOTES homosexuality and has a women minister - FACT!
(6) SG has his team of men go to a dear man of God and ‘tell’ him that he must top saying ‘AMEN’ in the service. And, yet, he stills wants to hear ‘AMEN’ for his sermons points – FACT!
(7) SG has told members: “If you don’t like it, find another church!” – FACT!
(8) SG has had deacons ‘dismissed’ from being an active deacon simply because they disagreed with him or questioned him on certain issues – FACT!
(9) SG has had to apologize to the church body more in the past few months for using inferior wisdom and poor judgment – FACT!
(10) He lied to the church yesterday, Wednesday – December 20th, when he stated that he had no ‘ill feelings’ toward Mike Spradlin. Anyone who knows Dr. Mike and the situation know that SG LIED – FACT!
Now, I am going to stop there. Obviously, there is much more. But, the one thing I know is this: “YOU CAN NOT, HOWEVER HARD YOU TRY, ARGUE WITH FACTS! Brothers and sisters, you may call me names, criticize my grammar and spelling and even say that all I am doing is being negative about SG! HOWEVER, YOU CAN’T CHANGE THE FACTS – IT IS THAT SIMPLE!
What we must decide is this: What is it going to take for Bellevue to wake up and see that the root of our problems is the LEADERSHIP or may I say THE LACK OF LEADERSHIP!
I am very much ready for Bellevue to be the church that she needs to be – a lighthouse to our community and to the world.
DON’T DO WHAT IS BEST FOR DR. GAINES, DR. SPRADLIN OR EVEN YOURSELF (ME INCLUDED), DO WHAT IS BEST FOR GOD’S CHURCH!!
MERRY CHRISTMAS EVERYONE! I PRAY THAT GOD WILL BLESS EACH OF YOU IN THIS NEW YEAR!
Wayne
The fact that this seems to have become a "popularity contest" only further confirms to me that this whole situation reeks of a lack of integrity.
Where are the men who are going to honor the Lord by being men of integrity and having enough of a backbone to stand up for truth no matter how hard it is or what the backlash might be? Like Dr. Spradlin for example... for those who have criticized him, no one is claiming that he is an infallible man, worthy of worship. But he is willing to be a man and take a stand for something, which is sadly lacking in the church today.
Just my two cents...
graceupongrace
Also, just let me add that, originally, I was told that Gaines was using church funds for his own benefit, NOT that he misused a credit card. The big credit card investigation was launched by the leadership to prove no fault could be found. It was admitted that in atleast two cases he used a Bellevue account and reimbursed the church. This is against tax law and also means he received TAX FREE goods and/or services, does it not?
So the original question was about church funds and was found to be true - just not necessarily in the form of a credit card....
Also, waht great things has Gaines done? If any souls are saved, isn't that God's doing?
Does the end justify the means?
Who was it that said
Steve Gaines get ready to REAP THE WHIRLWIND?
Well, the whirlwind has arrived!
There are people all across this country who are taking the Paul Williams rape and sodomy sex crime and the Bellevue cover up more seriously that most of the members in our own church and there are now wheels in motion that will put an end to all of this.
Y'all stop fighting each other - fight for the victim here! PW's son is a victim. Please read my post from this morning and remember it when you decide to keep bickering about who's the better bunch of Christians at BBC:
STOP TEARING EACH OTHER DOWN, STOP LOOKING FOR THAT ZINGY COMEBACK AND START LOOKING AT WHAT IS HAPPENING TO OUR CHURCH!! I DIDN'T STAND FOR THE OVATIONS LAST NIGHT BECAUSE I DIDN'T WANT TO! I AM CONCERNED ABOUT PAUL WILLIAMS SON AND WHAT'S HE IS FEELING RIGHT NOW! I KNOW WHAT IT'S LIKE TO BE ABUSED AND NOBODY SHOWS UP TO RESCUE YOU! LET THAT SINK IN FOR A MINUTE BEFORE YOU THINK OF THE NEXT THING YOU WANT TO SAY TO ME! I WAS ABUSED BY MY EX HUSBAND AND NO ONE HELPED ME! DO YOU FEEL THE HELPLESSNESS? THAT'S WHAT HIS SON FELT LIKE! IF YOU DO NOT SEE THAT THIS IS ALL ABOUT AN ABUSIVE FATHER RAPING, SODOMIZING AND HUMILIATING HIS OWN CHILD AND NOT ABOUT "US" VS. "THEM", THEN THERE IS SOMETHING SERIOUSLY WRONG WITH YOU! DON'T BLAME THE PEOPLE ON THIS BLOG FOR BRINGING THIS SHAME ON BELLEVUE. BLAME IT ON THE RAPIST - PAUL WILLIAMS!
I (OR ANY PARTICIPANT ON THIS BLOG) DIDN'T BRING THIS ABOUT BY BEING ON A BLOG. I COULD NO MORE BRING DOWN BBC BY TYPING ON A BLOG THAN I COULD KNOCK A HOLE IN BBC WITH A PEA SHOOTER!
CAN YOU HEAR ME NOW? THERE WAS A MOLESTOR/RAPIST AMONG US FOR 17 YEARS AND WE WANT TO SIT ON THIS BLOG AND DEBATES WHO'S FAULT THIS IS. IT'S PAUL WILLIAMS FAULT! GET IT??????
Karen Turk Marshall
piglet,
Technically, all "great things" must be attributed to God, such as winning souls, so by that route Dr. Rogers never did any "great things" either. But I think you know what I meant in saying this.
Wayne,
"(10) He lied to the church yesterday, Wednesday – December 20th, when he stated that he had no ‘ill feelings’ toward Mike Spradlin. Anyone who knows Dr. Mike and the situation know that SG LIED"
I would be extremely, extremely, extremely careful about throwing around the word "lie."
Lying is all about a person's intent, so you're really in an uphill battle to prove Dr. Gaines lied. How do you know he does not respect Dr. Spradlin? And what if it aroused anger in him (as I'm sure it may have) but he repented of that anger and thus now has no ill feelings towards for the man? What if he extended Christ-like forgiveness towards Dr. Spradlin?
Rational said...
Stillwaters - David decided to pay for the bill when his entire family went to dinner not knowing that his sister at the other end of the table had ordered 1 glass of wine. Why would you try to tear down a godly man who unknowingly accidentally purchased 1 glass of wine!!!! You obviuosly do not know this man at all! Hey, I ask you to resign from whatever it is you do because I know you about as well as you do him, obviously. I guarantee this man is more strict on alocohol policies than 99.9% of those reading this including you. He has never even tasted a drop in his life and has always been as strict as possible on any issue that involves alcohol
Rational,
You no not what you say. I talked to the man who witnessed this and what you say is not the case, sorry. I'm sure David Coombs may be the may you say he is. But your account is wrong.
The alcohol was seen by David Coombs.
piglet,
Sorry, forgot to respond to the earlier part of your post as well. Do you have any way of proving Dr. Gaines purposely used the church credit cards in this way so that his purchases would be tax-free?
You might want to see this:
http://www.sliceoflaodicea.com/archives/2006/12/seminary_head_c.php#comments
Rational and justnotso,
Would you treat Jesus in the same manner you are treating David Coombs' sister?
(Hint: What do both have in common? They both drank wine!)
I'm sorry for your pain Karen. I don't want you to think that I don't care. Please know that from the bottom of my heart I hope the Lord heals you, if He hasn't already.
But how do we help PW's son? If there is something we can do, I'm sure we would be willing. But he'd have to ask us. In other words, the things we could do for you (to help you) may not be the same that PW's son needs us to do for him because we all deal with abuse differently.
I'm not saying either abuse is less or more than others. It's just true. Different people need different kinds of help.
But that said, I think we ARE helping PW's son. I think it does help him to know that he is no longer alone. I think PW's son knows we love him, even though many of us don't know who he is.
I think it helps to know that we share his righteous anger. I think it helps for him to know that we will stand up for other children in an effort to prevent further abuse. And I think it helps to know that we are also standing up to his father and anyone else who will harbor the pedophile. (Hint hint SG et al.)
WREC just opened the hour with news about BBC. It has an interview with the ADA (I think). He said that it is the law that you must report child abuse. And even if it wasn't, shouldn't you??? He said that it's not a law that you have to report someone breaking into your neighbor's house but shouldn't you?
GraceUponGrace,
Do you really think that Jesus Drand wine the was fermented?
The Bible says that wine is a mocker and strong drink is raging and whoever drinks therefore is not wise.
I ask you, do you think Jesus was wise?
Go read your Bible
FYI,
Fox News had a pre-cursor blurb on stating DFS has gotten involved with the BBC investigation.
Blessme, could this be the "whirlwind?"
Karen
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