Saturday, December 09, 2006
Latest on Deacons' Show of Loyalty
This week Chuck Taylor, current Chairman of Deacons, sent this letter to the deacon body. This Sunday's planned "show of support" for the pastor by having the deacons stand on the platform with him during the morning worship services has been cancelled.
Your thoughts?
Deacon Brothers,
In the December Deacons meeting, we discussed coming forward in the Sunday morning services on December 10 to express our love and support for our Pastor. Since it was uncertain if our Pastor was in favor of this or not, we voted to ask him to decide if we should. I talked with Brother Steve on Tuesday and he said he didn’t want to make that decision or even express an opinion. He asked me to make the decision. Since then, I’ve been praying for God’s direction and talking with several Deacons who are very close to the Pastor and this situation. I know it is our Pastor’s desire to move on and focus all our attention and energies on Jesus and in servicing Him. Last Sunday morning, we heard our Pastor humbly ask the Church to forgive him and the Church responded with a standing ovation in acceptance of his apology. Sunday night Harry Smith and Phil Weatherwax expressed their love and support for our Pastor and once again the Church responded with a standing ovation expressing love and support for him. God blessed in a wonderful way as our Pastor and Congregation reached out to one another. As I prayed about what the Deacons should do, I sense in my spirit that it is time to move on. Deacons coming to the platform to express love and support of our Pastor would be appropriate but I believe it should have been done before now. It’s time to move on. This Sunday begins a new chapter and Deacons should show their love for our Pastor by faithfully serving the Lord Jesus Christ and refusing to have anything to do with people, websites, meetings or conversations that rehash those things that have been proven false or the Pastor has asked forgiveness for. [emphasis mine] Brothers, it is time to think like and act like Jesus to reach a lost and dying world. Right or wrong, I hope you understand my decision to not go to the platform this Sunday.
Chuck
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I agree - it is a shame that there could not be some normal working folks on the board - you know, those that have the best interest of the congregation and the purpose of the church in their hearts??? Those folks that will follow the Lords leading!
For those concerned about paid instrumentalists and nepotism, Rich Wingo the guitarist, is the pastor's daughter's boyfriend.
Well, that explains a lot!
are you saying that the paying of these musicians all started once Gaines became our pastor?
That is correct. The drummer, bass guitarist, and guitarist were not paid until after Steve Gaines came.
flatfoot said:
are you saying that the paying of these musicians all started once Gaines became our pastor?
Yes, that is exactly what is being said.
Most people who know about this have no issue with members of staff being paid (Josh Stewart, Ryan Wingo) it is the non-staff musicians.
Iwasthere:
If you are going give info the do your research. His name is Ryan Wingo not Rich.
He is paid staff not just a paid instrumentalist.
You can find his photo and title on staff listing on the website.
no.rumors.please,
Do you know what Ryan Wingo's job title is at Bellevue and what his responsibilities are?
What is his background if you know that as well. Isn't he pursuing a singing career in Nashville?
Thanks for your help.
If he is paid staff that is not an unusual situation. For some time now, those who do extra above and beyond their work day have been paid extra - for example those that run the cameras work their usual 40 hours and rotate during the services. They are highly skilled and most are degreed professionals. I see no reason NOT to pay them for their services (unless they volunteer). We need things like that handled in a professional manner. Likewise with the other staff members unless they are salaried employees. For example the security staff - I was told that they are all now salaried so Steve Gaines can call them in any time he wishes and does not have to pay them any more - now THAT is a travesty!
Mom4 -
The paid instrumentalists that I and others are referring to do not include Ryan Wingo or Josh Stewart.
To set the record straight, there are three guitarists playing with the orchestra. One is on staff (Ryan Wingo) and the other two are paid instrumentalists.
And the 3rd paid instrumentalist is the drummer?
Mom4 -
Yup - you've got it:)
Informed is correct. I was not including Ryan Wingo, who is already a paid staff member.
The paid members (not including staff members Ryan Wingo and Josh Stewart) are the guitarist, bass guitarist, and drummer.
Whew - these things can complicate one's train of thought - if it weren't for this blog, think how confused I would be!!
Thanks!
no.rumors.please,
Do you know what Ryan Wingo's job title is at Bellevue and what his responsibilities are?
What is his background if you know that as well. Isn't he pursuing a singing career in Nashville?
Thanks for your help.
Does anyone know what Ryan Wingo's job title is at church and what is his responsibilities?
Does anyone know if he is working towards a singing career in Nashville?
For the sake of clarity, the practice of paying professional musicians (not staff members) did not start with the arrival of SG. It's been going on for a long, long time... back to Bellevue's midtown days, in fact. What's new is simply this particular instance of the guitarists and drummer, as I understand it.
And according to the BBC website, Wingo's title is "Music Assistant, Praise and Worship."
CH said...
For the sake of clarity, the practice of paying professional musicians (not staff members) did not start with the arrival of SG. It's been going on for a long, long time... back to Bellevue's midtown days, in fact. What's new is simply this particular instance of the guitarists and drummer, as I understand it.
Just for a tiny bit more clarity...
Those paid musicians from "back in the day" (midtown BBC) were from the Memphis Symphony Orchestra paid to play during Singing Christmas Tree and Living Pictures. When the Performing Arts Center at BBC was started and began "growing musicians" the Symphony Orchestra people were no longer needed.
Our pianist, (Margaret Lafferty and now Josh Stewart) and organist (Larry Luton and now whoever it is) were on staff and paid by BBC.
Karen is precisely correct. Thank you, ma'am!
Karen!
Missed you! Did you take some much needed down time or were you ill?
ch,
I think it's more accurate to say that it has "re-started" with a new twist under SG. I personally know people who were not Bellevue members, but who were brought in and paid for the SCT and Living Pictures (Passion Play), but that it was Jim Whitmire’s (Dr. J) desire was to wean off of that, and he had been successful as far as I know.
I will say it should be clear to anyone with their eyes open and with discernment that SG's vision of the orchestra is drums/guitars/keyboards, with no traditional instruments such as the organ, and the choir reduced to 6-8 people on stage.
To be fair, I really think he believes that "traditional church" turns people off, and he's trying to create a "non-threatening environment" for the "un-churched". A lot of people do disagree with this line of thinking, and I guess that's why we are being subjected to the "boiling a frog in a pan of water" approach.
Who knows?
I will say it should be clear to anyone with their eyes open and with discernment that SG's vision of the orchastra is drums/guitars/keyboards, with no traditional instruments such as the organ, and the choir reduced to 6-8 people on stage.
To be fair, I really think he believes that "traditional church" turns people off, and he's trying to create a "non-threatening envoirmonment" for the "unchurched". A lot of people do disagree with this line of thinking, and I guess that's why we are being subjected to the "boiling a frog in a pan of water" approach.
Does anyone know what Ryan Wingo's responsibilities are at Bellevue. What does he do all day long? I'm just wondering what he's in charge of? If there is anyone from his department reading this, perhaps you could let us know.
Thanks in advance.
And I think it's worth noting — for everyone's consideration — that at the time, those people were brought in to supplement the base of willing and able member instrumentalists, until such time as we could "grow our own" through the PAC.
I get the sense today that rather than supplement, the purpose (of course never presented this way publicly) is more to replace willing and able members who may not quite be up to snuff and ready for the polished performance bands "required" for worship these days. Either that, or our own highly skilled musicians are jumping ship fast enough and in such quantity that they have no other choice but to hire pros who are essentially required to be there out of job responsibility rather than a desire to participate in worship. I personally know of several extremely talented, long-time orchestra members who have "left the building."
Just my opinion, based on what I've seen. I could be wrong.
financeguy...
AMEN and AMEN!
Oops, I can get excommunicated for that:(
I believe SG's had a choir at GFBC. I've seen him in some video preaching with them behind them. It's nice to know that someone is behind you when you are preaching.
swtt wrote:
"It's nice to know that someone is behind you when you are preaching."
Guess it depends on who that someone is. ;-)
Anonymous Deacon said...
I want to sat that it is with deep sadness that I post this comment. I am frustrated, and I do not know what to do. I am obviously nervous about even posting at all. I am scared for my family, especially because I am their sole provider. It has become made clear to me that I am not able to speak openly about some things which I am aware of without "serious ramifications" upon my job situation. Please pray for me as I consider what steps we need to take. The current mafia-like mentality needs to come to an abrupt end. There is no excuse for such behavior within the church. I have no plans to carry on a conversation at this time, but I felt it necessary to speak out, if only for this one time. God Bless.
11:50 PM, December 10, 2006
You are not alone.
God is in control and he knows the men that are standing for the truth.
Remember he knows your name.
I pray that God will give you comfort and courage.
Let me see if I understood something. Ryan Wingo came from GFBC and was hired on staff at Bellevue as the praise and worship music assistant.
Is he in college or seminary or has he already graduated?
How old is Ryan Wingo? Just curious, he looks so young in the staff picture. Handsome looking fellow to boot.
Wingo Star's main job is to lead in worship at the i2 Contemporary worship service that we don't have. "Pay no attention to the man behind the curtain".
FinanceGuy said...
"Pay no attention to the man behind the curtain".
FinanceGuy,
Man behind the curtain?? You lost me.
"The Wizard of Oz" movie -the wizard was a sham..
Dear Anonymous Deacon,
Take heart! Be of good courage! God provided for men and women throughout the Bible when things look hopeless. When the forces against them seemed overwhelming. When there seemed no solution. He always provided and protected. He will do the same for us--and for you specifically. Do the right thing, trust God for the rest.
There is a good quote from Edward R Murrow that's appropriate here:
We will not walk in fear, one of another. We will not be driven by fear into an age of unreason, if we dig deep in our history and our doctrine, and remember that we are not descended from fearful men— not from men who feared to write, to speak, to associate and to defend causes that were, for the moment, unpopular.
This is no time for men who oppose Senator McCarthy's methods to keep silent, or for those who approve. We can deny our heritage and our history, but we cannot escape responsibility for the result. There is no way for a citizen of a republic to abdicate his responsibilities. As a nation we have come into our full inheritance at a tender age. We proclaim ourselves, as indeed we are, the defenders of freedom, wherever it continues to exist in the world, but we cannot defend freedom abroad by deserting it at home.
We at Bellevue have come into our full inheritance at a tender age. We must be found faithful with so great a cloud of witnesses around us. Be strong, Dear Friend! We stand together!
Anonymous Deacon
A message for you
Tim,
The man pretending to be the wizard hid behind a curtain. What you saw as the wizard was not real.
It was a quote from the movie.
tim,
It was a Wizard of Oz reference. It's talking about someone behind the scenes controlling the "public face". You're right though, I should quit using movie references. No one seems to understand me when I talk about "Jedi mind-tricks" from the pulpit (e.g. There are no problems at Bellevue). I also bet most people on here didn’t understand the pun on Wingo’s name either (Ringo Starr)
well Mr Finance Guy, I got em all!:))
But I don't know what that should mean - either I watched too many sci fi movies as a child or I remember way too many of them.
OK...duh...Just a little slow connecting the dots. The jedi-mind tricks I understand. I just can't figure out who Yoda is in all of this mess. Also, caught the Ringo Starr and get it.
So anyone have the answers to the two questions.
Is he in college or seminary or has he already graduated?
How old is Ryan Wingo? Just curious, he looks so young in the staff picture. Handsome looking fellow to boot.
By the way ,,"Youra minda tricks no worka ona me...Ooonllyy Money".
In response to comments regarding paid singers/musicians...I am a member of Bellevue, but I work as a paid singer at Christ United Methodist Church (one of the churches previously mentioned as having paid singers). I am constantly asked if I sing in the choir at Bellevue, and I always say "no", as I am part-time music staff at CUMC every Sunday (and Wednesday night). And, yes, I am paid to be there EVERY WEEK, but I do resent the assumption by some that because a person like me is being paid that their gifts are not to the glory of God or not being presented with the right heart. With my situation, I was a paid singer at CUMC (I have been there since 1996) long before becoming a member at Bellevue, and I feel that God called me to that ministry position. A little background: I earned a vocal performance degree in college, and even continued taking private lessons (which are not cheap) post-college. God revealed to me at an early age that I was created to sing and this was His plan for my life. In Memphis, if one wishes to earn a living as a musician, the options are pretty much in church music or singing on Beale Street. (Otherwise, move to Nashville and hope to get a job in a recording studio). And why should my vocation somehow be separate from my faith? Everything that we do should be for His glory! I feel blessed that God provided a job for me doing something that I love AND being able to minister for Him to others. You might ask, "Would I be at CUMC every Sunday if I was not being paid?" Probably not--I would be in my own church (just like any other Christian who might have a job requiring them to work on Sunday). But God has not seen fit to move me from that ministry job either. And to be honest--How many of you as church members do not sometimes wake up on a Sunday morning and for a brief moment wish you could sleep in? But you don't--you get up and go to God's house. However, there are some who DO decide to stay in bed, which brings me to another point. In a church as large as Bellevue, and in a church where talent is so readily available, I see no need for paid musicians. But I will speak to my situation, where at CUMC there are six DISTINCTIVE services that must be covered EVERY WEEK. We have lots of dedicated choir members and praise team singers, but with that many services, there is not always enough to go around to guarantee that the services will be covered adequately in case folks have to be out (and some volunteers sing at one or more services, just as some paid singers sing several services, so if one person is out, it affects more than just one service). If Bellevue had that many different services going on and a smaller talent pool, then I would say "yes", paid singers/musicians are warranted. But this is not the case from my observation.
Another point that I can not fail to bring forth: Why is there an attitude in churches that shows prejudice against singers being paid, yet we have no problem with paying the pianist, the organist, the preacher, the choir director, etc.? This always bothers me, as I feel that I studied just as hard and disciplined myself in my musical training as any other musician or professional in their field. Yes, I had natural talent, but I spent years perfecting the talent God gave, and yet there is this common mentality that a great singer just "opens their mouth and it happens." Not true in most cases. Otherwise, it would be too easy to win American Idol. :) We can pay the other professionals in church, but not in the area of vocal music.
bbcmember-cumcsinger,
Good points and no argument here. I am well aware of the training and time that any musical ability takes.
The only time I believe that I would have a problem would be with hiring a muscian making a living 'til 3:00am Saturday night on Beale and then coming to bless the church on Sunday morning with blood shot eyes.
mom4, I was sick this weekend (same thing as before) - thanks for noticing my absence. Email me!
Financeguy said:
I get the sense today that rather than supplement, the purpose (of course never presented this way publicly) is more to replace willing and able members who may not quite be up to snuff and ready for the polished performance bands "required" for worship these days. Either that, or our own highly skilled musicians are jumping ship fast enough and in such quantity that they have no other choice but to hire pros who are essentially required to be there out of job responsibility rather than a desire to participate in worship. I personally know of several extremely talented, long-time orchestra members who have "left the building."
You sir, I am sure have voiced the opinion of more than one present and past orchestra member!
I believe it is time to call on our leadership for willing and prayful worship instead of paid worship
ch,
Talking about musicians "leaving the building", I saw Mike Martin (trumpet player) at Faith Baptist on Sunday.
For ace, or hisservant-1 who always wants hard cold facts - how do I know that the musicians were from the Memphis Symphony Orchestra, the bass player was my 7th grade homeroom teacher's husband (Mr. Parker) and we'd always talk about SCT & LP every year at school - unfortunately Mr. Parker died a few years ago, but I still remember him playing in SCT and LP.
Karen
Karen
In regards to Ryan Wingo, hopefully he has a backup plan in case he and Ms. Gaines ever break up.
financeguy said...
Wingo Star's - I spit Coke on the screen again! Warn me when you're gonna publish a funny!
Man behind the curtain - Obscure Wizard of Oz reference, but I got it! (11th grade - Cowardly Lion - thank you very much!)
Karen (put 'em up, put 'em up!)
bbcmember-cumcsinger,
Just curious, how are you an active Bellevue member if you are "worshiping" at CUMC, and are paid to be there "every Sunday and Wednesday night"? You aren't clear on if you are there Sunday morning or not, but I'd be curious to find out that CUMC was paying for musicians and didn't want them there on Sunday morning.
I'm sure some of you on here are familiar with the Kevin Paige / Lindenwood Christian Church relationship and "W.O.W". There's an example of a professional musician who is playing on Beale Street Saturday night, (and is quite well-thought of by the "World") and leads in worship on Sunday morning. Not only is this not a problem for anyone, but they brag about it! Think it makes them more "Jesus-like" that they "fellowship" with the Beale Street crowd and then come lead in worship on Sunday morning. The problem is that yes, Jesus fellowshipped with sinners, but he didn’t “join” them in this since. This is exactly how it’s justified. The picture that keeps growing in my mind, true or not, is that this is exactly what Pastor Steve wants for Bellevue. (Certainly what C. T. would like!). I don't know his heart, but he probably believes that is what it will take to bring the "unchurched" into church so he can preach the gospel to them. If so, I take issue with this "ends justifies the means" mentality, and believe it would lead to same watered down gospel at Bellevue that Lindenwood is all about now.
Just my opinion, purely subjective, so MB probably thinks I'm not entitled to it.:)
Memphismom02 said...
WOUNDEDANDBLEEDING said:
We are concerned that our pastor has given our church a false impression about what really transpired.........
Memphismom02 - The account you read today from woundedandbleeding is 100% without question correct. It is sad when we can't get 100% truth from the pulpit, isn't it?
karen
bbcmember - cumcsinger:
You made some excellent points however as you so clearly stated In a church as large as Bellevue, and in a church where talent is so readily available, I see no need for paid musicians.
The main issue with the current paid orchestral musicians at Bellevue is - as financeguy stated - it is most likely being done to replace the traditional orchestra with a rhythm band.
"My favorite part of the welcome bag is the CD of our choir and orchestra".
The half-truths from the pulpit continue.......
Re: the security guards being paid...Just a question, but do you guys have a problem with the security being paid???
Just curious
Would anyone be interested in calling on the SEARCH COMMITTEE to hold weekly "Communication" meetings to ask them about these issues surrounding Steve Gaines' position on spending, hiring, firing, compensation, music, vacation, staff behavior, perks, time away, tithing investigators, sermon writers, finances, etc.? It would really be interesting to hear from them what they found out when they called on West Jackson and Gardendale staff and members. Surely we wouldn't hear that they didn't do their homework.
Does anyone remember the Pastor Search Committee? Here's who I can come up with. If I left anyone off, let me know.
Fay Hardy
Pat Caldwell (wife of John)
Harry Smith
Chuck Taylor
Bryan Miller
Mark Spiller
Steve Tucker
Bob Sorrell
Eric Brand
Jeff Arnold
I'm not sure who's idea it was but all I can remember is these folks patting themselves on the back on stage over and over before the church.
I recall about a month after Steve Gaiens arrived, all of them gave themselves a big oversized trophy or placque with their names inscribed in gold (I'm sure it wasn't real - it was just the color gold).
Did the search committee that called Dr. Rogers ever act that way? I knew then we were in trouble.
Information on W.O.W if you are interested.
Informedatbbc,
i actually believe he might be telling the truth. From what little I know about him that i've found out in places besides this blog and from the pulpit, I'll bet his iPod is full of hymns and choral type music. However, I will say the whole "go collect your prize" thing is a little distastful, but I do try to see it in the spirit he means it.
I don't think he's a "rock and roll" music fan, but he believes that's what it takes to reach young people. Again, a dangerous road to travel down. (My not-so-subjective opinion.)
flatfoot,
You must have missed my post - Unfortunately, I was told that the security guards have been put on salary so that Steve Gaines can call them in any time he wants to and he does NOT have to pay them.
I am a firm believer that if you are in a job, especially one where God has called you, and provisions are made for you to be paid, if you have peace after praying about it and it is OFFERED, you should feel the freedom to accept it (of course this does not include the renegotiation of hireling salaries).
There are paid security guards at BBC 24/7 and they should be paid, so should musicians IF they are hired. The problem comes in when there are ample, talented, gifted and dedicated musical talents at BBC that are being run off only to be replaced with hired talent - an unnecessary expense.
btw, has anyone seen some of the new guards? We used to call them "grandpa security guards". Now it seems more appropriate to call them the "Brute squad". (Another movie reference.)They have a more "scary" look than in the past.
Thanks for clearifying your thoughts on the security. I understand about the musicians, my mother was a church organist for many many years, and she was never paid. I remember all the hours she put in to prepare for services at home, as well as at the church and I always felt that she should have been paid.
Informed,
Actually, the comment you quoted at 2:30pm was mine, not Financeguy's. (Just didn't want it to have undue repercussions on him if it ever bites back!)
Flatfoot,
I have an issue with security guards being paid, yes. Because I have an issue with security guards in the church period, much as I have a problem with the surveillance cameras (I refuse to call them security cameras) everywhere you turn.
If the argument is that we need guards because the church is so big, then I'd reply by saying the church is too big. If the argument is that there are bad people lurking around, please tell me when that hasn't been the case? It's more of this same "give up some liberty in the name of safety and security" mindlessness we get from our present over-reaching government.
On the same note, I take some issue with the ever-present roaming Campus Safety vehicles. More than once I've been told by these gentlemen that I can't take pictures of my daughter on the church grounds, because if they let me (a member whose tithe paid for a small portion of those grounds) then they'd have to let everyone, and we just can't have that. So those beautiful grounds are just for lookin' at, folks. But don't you dare stop to pick a flower or take a picture.
Besides the picture-taking, there was an incident back in the spring when my daughter and I were walking around one of the ponds together, looking at the ducks and admiring the grass and trees, and talking about God's incredible creation. One of these "safety officers" stopped his truck, beckoned me over, and asked who I was and how long we planned to be there. "Papers, please." Admittedly, I'm a big ugly guy with a goatee, but at the time had my 4-yr old daughter on my shoulders while walking around a pond in the wide open in broad daylight.... do I look that much like a thug?
Just another way the whole corporation mindset has infected the body of Christ.
This is a church, folks. A church. Church.
finance guy -
Thanks for the information and now that you mention it I do remember the Pastor talking about the hymns he has on his ipod....
However, if he truly thinks (I believe you are right) that using rock music is the only way to reach the young people, then we are on a "slippery slope". I speak from a bit of experience on that; how will we ever appear set-apart?
CH, I do not know the policies of BBC's security (safety patrol) so I do not know why they attempted to run you off from the looking at the ducks or did not let you take a picture, as I see people all the time taking pictures of kids (done it myself).
As far as them patroling the parking lots, I am thankful. That parking lot is wide open and there are people out there that will break into vehicles at churches becasue they know how long they are in service and there is a good oppurtunity.
I respectfully doubt that the cameras you see are surveillance cameras, where they have someone following people around the church. To me it makes perfect sense for a church the size of BBC to have paid security and surveillance cameras.
ch: let me clearify about the surveillance cameras, meaning that someone is intentionally spying on people.
On a lighter note, this was on another blog. It may have been tweeked to fit here.
YOU'RE PROBABLY NOT A SEEKER SENSITIVE CHURCH IF;
1. You can get a place to park within a mile of your church
2. You've never heard of Rick Warren
3. You've managed to catch up significantly on lost sleep during the song service
4. You wish there was an alternative to rich donuts in the commons area
6. Your pastor is very poor
7. Your deacon officers are very poor
8. Your Bible Study class is listening to "Sinners in the Hands of an Angry God"
9. You are sick with your pastor going on about predestination
10. You bring a cushion to church
11. You don't know if you are a melancholy or a phlegmatic
12. You are not afraid to have a private conversation near a potted plant
13. The coffee pots offer regular and decaff
14 Your pastor can not sing or play a guitar
15. You are not sure what your purpose is
informed...
Therein lies the problem. The current thinking in church outreach seems to think that being "set apart" means we can't reach the world. I suppose the thinking is that we must become like the World in order to reach the World. It's not that blatant of course, but that is in effect, what the philosophy is. However, when we travel down that road, we shouldn’t act surprised when our ministers get caught in immorality, we have a constant need to “explain” questionable ethics on the part of leadership, blatant materialism runs rampant in our church, our children rebel, godly people feel uncomfortable or uneasy with what’s going on in church, people never grow spiritually beyond a certain point..etc…etc….etc. But hey, people are getting saved so it’s all okay….right?
churchmouse,
LOL ...priceless
Flatfoot,
Perhaps they've lightened up on their picture-taking policy. It's happened to me at least twice, if I recall. My wife and friends can back this up.
Regarding the surveillance cameras, they are indeed everywhere. Worship Center, all major hallways and meeting spaces, etc. Ask one of the guards sometime how many cameras there are. Ask them who monitors the cameras, and if they're recorded. I think you'll find that most of them are very hesitant to answer you or give any details. Which should be clue #1 that they are indeed for surveillance as opposed to mere security. If you're looking out for my own good, and I'm not suspected of anything, then why hide the facts from me — especially when it's my church and my dollars backing all this up?
As for the parking lot, I might agree with you on the size of the lot and the possible dangers. But that doesn't require a paid guard staff with multiple vehicles roaming at all times, and the attitudes which result from such a position. That's what I object to.
flatfoot,
what do you say about the "safety cameras" in the ceiling of the Worship Center? They are easy to spot if you know where to look. I've heard that Sunday School teachers have been approached and asked why they aren't standing and clapping for the pastor during the "spontaneous ovations". I don't know if that's true or not, but why are there cameras in the worship center that are trained on the congregation, and not the stage?
They may or may not be intentionally spying, but the possibility, the means — and recently, the motive — are all there.
financeguy,
agreed...no one has ever reached the world by becoming like the world...bad company always corrupts good character..we go into the world, but are not of the world.
Financeguy -
AMEN to that!!!! Thanks for putting those thoughts to paper. I bet more than one senior could tell us a few tales about what happens to children when you let to much of the world in.
BTW - did you read what churchmouse wrote at 3:34? That was a keeper...
Flatfoot,
Furthermore, if you don't think general monitoring of the congregation takes place — checking of tithes, attendance, participation, etc etc ad nauseum — I would suggest you think too highly of not only the church administration, but of our civil government. And that's not black helicopter conspiracy talk, that's just plainly evident in everyday life for anyone willing to open their eyes. You're monitored, in one form or another, to some extent, virtually everywhere you go these days.
My point, ultimately, is such monitoring has no place in the church.
(Sorry, feel like I'm off on a tangent here.)
I think the surveillance camera thing is getting alittle overblown, and people are a little paronoid. No, I do not have any knowledge of cameras in the worship service and have not heard about them monitoring who stands and claps, and if that is true, then maybe this blog has made some people nervous about..(nevermind that, not going there).
As far as them not teling us where the cameras are in the building, why would they? Security cameras do not do alot of good if they are marked and people know where each and every one is. Alot of the cameras could be "dummy" cameras which basically give the impression of a camera, but actually might not even work. Again I do not know.
And as far as the parking lot, you state that it does not require multiple vehicle roaming the lot to protect it, how else would you suggest they do it? It takes multiple vehicles on a lot that size.
ch, true, you are caught on some type of surveillance camera an average of 12 times a day.
churchmouse,
Cracked me up! Ok, I spit again, I'll have to admit.
flatfoot
Next time you are in church, glance up to the "messiah" and "redeemer" banners and look at the ceiling right above them. Tell me it doesn't make you just a little uneasy.
flatfoot,
ch, true, you are caught on some type of surveillance camera an average of 12 times a day.
I can assure you ch isn't being caught on camera 12 times a day!
I remember when we first got security guards at BBC in midtown - remember folks??? Dr. Rogers was attacked in the pulpit, remember? After that he had security all the time at the church. I don't have a problem with it. There is so much stuff in the church that I woulld hate it if someone broke in or hurt someone because we didn't have security.
Flatfoot,
Paranoid? I'm not the one posting anonymously.
And frankly, I think you're missing my main point (my fault, not yours).
I'm saying that all this high-tech security/surveillance stuff, the paid guard force, the cameras and roaming vehicles... all of it, if you take just a step back, seems strangely out of place in a church. If you can't see that, I'm afraid we'll just have agree to disagree.
We can still be friends. I'll just have to keep a closer eye on you.
CH
never mind the security/surveillance cameras....what do we need with umpteen widescreen tv's all over the place..good grief it's like what..100 ft tops to the sanctuary...could you possibly miss that much of the service from the lobby to the sanctuary?...between that and the cameras...very Orwellian.
Choice,
I can assure you if I ever find out any of the churches security procedures I won't discuss them on the web. Discussing the fact there are cameras all over the place, and little white trucks with flashing orange lights driving around is hardly disclosing state secrets.
Enjoy your holidays
choice, I have no secrets to give up! I have nothing to do witht he church security, just trying to make a point that it is a valid thing to have.
CH, if you would like to know who I am, please feel free to ask me, my email address is listed and I will be more than happy to introduce myself to you. No one has ever asked who I was! lol and I doubt anyone would know if I posted it
but we have our own starbucks too...really.....Saddlebackish
Choice,
Don't you get irritated when the New York Times announces one of our government's tools for tracking down our countries enemies?
No, frankly I don't. If more people were aware of what our government is really engaging in — all in the name of safety and security — we'd be far better off.
We have a thing called the Constitution. Call me crazy, but I think it matters. Have you ever actually read it? It's specifically designed to protect us — you and I — from an over-reaching government which has presently blurred the line between "enemies, foreign and domestic."
I promise, if you'll turn off Fox News (CNN, too) and do some homework, you'll be surprised at what you find. Email me if you want some material to get you started.
The next time you hear the government droning on and on about protecting us all from "terrorists", it might be prudent to go and check to see just exactly how the government defines the term "terrorist". You'll find it strikes a little closer to home than you think.
allofgrace,
are you talking about the Kononia (sp?) Cafe? Sorry, but I like coffee so I've enjoyed that part. Is that wrong?
Karen
flatfoot,
you have email! Karen
Before we leave the topic of security, which I'm not sure I advocate removing, with our location right off I-40 and all, aren't we forgetting the Psalm 127:1? God is the ultimate "security guard". Dr. Rogers preached a great sermon sometime in the late 1990's about how the "hedge of protection" had been removed from America. If Bellevue's "hedge of protection" is ever removed, all the security cameras and little white trucks in the world won't protect us.
Karen, I am not able to access my home email from here, but I will reply tonight.
and although I like the coffee, I have personally had a problem with the business run selling coffee and what nots.
At least certain people have been watched in the past. I know of a man who was asked by Mark Dougharty why he was reading a book during the preaching of Steve Gaines. The man was not sitting on the front row for MD to see. The man told Mark Dougharty he was reading a book. It's called the Bible. He chose to sit and read during the sermons instead of filling in the blanks. Has it come to this now that if you don't fill the blanks in you will be called on the carpet. (at least the carpet will be soft)
Choice,
Financeguy nailed it. We're not discussing anything which isn't readily apparent to the naked eye. You can relax.
Merry Christmas!
karen,
I happen to like coffee too...I just thought it was a silly way to spend some money..we had coffee already..in our assembly rooms..but I guess a coffee shop is gonna bring in droves of "unchurched" folk.
Financeguy, this applies:
A lock only keeps out an honest man.
flatfoot said...
and although I like the coffee, I have personally had a problem with the business run selling coffee and what nots.
Do you know where the money goes? In my ever postive mind, I would like to think it goes back into the church somewhere. I noticed that there are younger people (maybe youth) working the counter. Does the money go to the youth group?
I don't know and would like to know. Thanks!
karen
Karen,
and yes...you are soooooo so wrong...(tongue planted firmly in cheek)
allofgrace said...
karen,
I happen to like coffee too...I just thought it was a silly way to spend some money..we had coffee already..in our assembly rooms..but I guess a coffee shop is gonna bring in droves of "unchurched" folk.
You'd have to be a serious coffee hound to find the place - I thought it kind of an obscure place to put a "cafe". I've seen a few youth getting coffee there - are we talking about the same place? I know my dad gets coffee in the hallway by his SS room. Where I'm thinking of is on the 2nd floor - are we thinking of the same place?
karen
CM-
Great post at 3:34. I think we all needed a little chuckle. The sad thing is that it just further reiterates where we are…
Perhaps some additions to the list could be:
16. You don’t gulp and gag (or swallow and follow) at least one time on a weekly basis.
17. Your congregation does not offer standing ovations at a rate of at least 2 per Sunday morning.
allofgrace said...
Karen,
and yes...you are soooooo so wrong...(tongue planted firmly in cheek)
Figures! I'm always wrong about something around here - just ask "pastor"! :) LOL
swtt said...
At least certain people have been watched in the past. I know of a man who was asked by Mark Dougharty why he was reading a book during the preaching of Steve Gaines. The man was not sitting on the front row for MD to see. The man told Mark Dougharty he was reading a book. It's called the Bible. He chose to sit and read during the sermons instead of filling in the blanks. Has it come to this now that if you don't fill the blanks in you will be called on the carpet. (at least the carpet will be soft)
Ok, that's creepy! I wish MD would come and say something to me! :)
karen,flatfoot,
they don't sell it...it's just set up like a coffee shop...but I won't be surprised if the do start selling it...along with sunglasses and hawaiian shirts.
Karen,
I don't know about the coffee, but I recall that when it was decided that in the Young Marrieds. Donuts and drinks would now be sold instead of 'gratis', we were assured by Larry Ray they would be sold at "cost". Since they are charging $.50-$1.00 for a donut, and .75-$1.00 for canned drinks, someone really needs to find a new supplier. You can get drinks way cheaper than that at Sams! Oh wait, maybe they include imputed "rent" for the space in the church in the cost.
How do you all get time to keep up with all this. I leave for an hour and come back and have to play catch up. Choice, Mom4, Karen, CH, SWTT and others do you ever get off line? :-)
financeguy,
they're making y'all pay for stale donuts and cokes?
bbc observation said:
16. You don’t gulp and gag (or swallow and follow) at least one time on a weekly basis.
The red Kool-aid makes it go down easier.
Karen
norumorsplease,
only for donut holes and coffee...just kidding.
At least certain people have been watched in the past. I know of a man who was asked by Mark Dougharty why he was reading a book during the preaching of Steve Gaines. The man was not sitting on the front row for MD to see.
Now how do we know someone did not mention it to MD. Did he say he saw them on cameras? Again, I think people are going overboard ont he issue of cameras at the church.
allofgrace said...
karen,flatfoot,
they don't sell it...it's just set up like a coffee shop...but I won't be surprised if the do start selling it...along with sunglasses and hawaiian shirts.
What do you mean they don't sell it - when I went to the Engaged Couples class for a few weeks, you go around the corner and there's a huge open spot and they are selling lattes and coffee. I'm not kidding - I bought a donut too.
Actually it doesn't matter if the man was watched on camera or not...since when are we being monitored for reading in church by any means?
I refuse to buy a coke up there, but my wife forces me to buy donuts now and then, but they are actually donuts, with sprinkles and everything! unlike the donut holes in the rest of the building. The gormet coffee is free up there though.
(Hopes i just didn't give a free commerical for the moneychanger's on the third floor)
karen,
must be different ones then...the one in the singles dept is free..and we have donut holes in the assembly room....y'all come around the corner and scarf some up..LOL
Karen,
we are talking about two completely different parts of the building. You are both correct.
ALL, we were discussing the existence of surveillance cameras vs. security cameras, and that was the context of my post, not whether it is right or wrong to read in church.
karen,
now I'm bummed...we don't have lattes.
flatfoot,
I understood the context...I just think it's silly to be calling someone down for reading their Bible in church...what a terrible thing for a Christian to be doing.
Choice,
Please email me. I have some materials I'd like to send you, and I'd be happy to talk with you further.
As for the meeting up to witness on a forum, you've asked that of a number of people here, and I'm not sure I see that as being a very effective methodology. But we can talk about it more later.
If you're a "he", I'll be glad to meet you for lunch one day after the holidays. If you're a "she" we can still meet, and I'll just ask my wife to accompany us.
FinanceGuy said...
Karen,
we are talking about two completely different parts of the building. You are both correct.
Thanks finance! I thought for a minute that I was feeling the effects of the Kool-aid again!
karen
ps: you have mail!
Financeguy,
hehe, I got the Wingo Starr, but i am very sad to say that I did not get the " guy behind the curtain" reference, EVEN THO my brother and sisters and I would gather in front of the TV in the early 60's the once a year that one of the networks would put it on the air. We would plan all day for it. Ahh, the good ol days before VCR's...
Oh, by the way, did you say that we no longer have I2 worship? (or whatever it's called for the 18/29 y /o's)
PLEASE TIE A KNOT IN THIS ONE AND MOVE TO THE NEXT THREAD TO CONTINUE.
Thank you,
NBBCOF
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