Saturday, December 09, 2006
Latest on Deacons' Show of Loyalty
This week Chuck Taylor, current Chairman of Deacons, sent this letter to the deacon body. This Sunday's planned "show of support" for the pastor by having the deacons stand on the platform with him during the morning worship services has been cancelled.
Your thoughts?
Deacon Brothers,
In the December Deacons meeting, we discussed coming forward in the Sunday morning services on December 10 to express our love and support for our Pastor. Since it was uncertain if our Pastor was in favor of this or not, we voted to ask him to decide if we should. I talked with Brother Steve on Tuesday and he said he didn’t want to make that decision or even express an opinion. He asked me to make the decision. Since then, I’ve been praying for God’s direction and talking with several Deacons who are very close to the Pastor and this situation. I know it is our Pastor’s desire to move on and focus all our attention and energies on Jesus and in servicing Him. Last Sunday morning, we heard our Pastor humbly ask the Church to forgive him and the Church responded with a standing ovation in acceptance of his apology. Sunday night Harry Smith and Phil Weatherwax expressed their love and support for our Pastor and once again the Church responded with a standing ovation expressing love and support for him. God blessed in a wonderful way as our Pastor and Congregation reached out to one another. As I prayed about what the Deacons should do, I sense in my spirit that it is time to move on. Deacons coming to the platform to express love and support of our Pastor would be appropriate but I believe it should have been done before now. It’s time to move on. This Sunday begins a new chapter and Deacons should show their love for our Pastor by faithfully serving the Lord Jesus Christ and refusing to have anything to do with people, websites, meetings or conversations that rehash those things that have been proven false or the Pastor has asked forgiveness for. [emphasis mine] Brothers, it is time to think like and act like Jesus to reach a lost and dying world. Right or wrong, I hope you understand my decision to not go to the platform this Sunday.
Chuck
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While the discussion concerning grace and law may seem a bit off subject, read the following passage from Galatians. Verses 20-21 will be very familar. The part that I had never noticed before was the beginning of this passage, please pay particular attention to verses 11-12.
It seems that Paul had a dispute with Peter concerning the seperation of Jews & Gentiles. The dispute was initiated by James the brother of Jesus. The seperation was evidence in Barnabas also. This is no small matter for the early church to have had a dispute between these that are considered to be pillars of the church.
The issue of the dispute centers around an elite group of Jewish believers seperating themselves from the remainder of the church and the Gentiles. Compare this to the most recent letter that was written to the deacon body by Chuck Taylor.
Galatians 2:11-21
11 But when Peter was come to An'ti-och, I withstood him to the face, because he was to be blamed.
12 For before that certain came from James, he did eat with the Gentiles: but when they were come, he withdrew and separated himself, fearing them which were of the circumcision.
13 And the other Jews dissembled likewise with him; insomuch that Barnabas also was carried away with their dissimulation.
14 But when I saw that they walked not uprightly according to the truth of the gospel, I said unto Peter before them all, If thou, being a Jew, livest after the manner of Gentiles, and not as do the Jews, why compellest thou the Gentiles to live as do the Jews?
15 We who are Jews by nature, and not sinners of the Gentiles,
16 knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.
17 But if, while we seek to be justified by Christ, we ourselves also are found sinners, is therefore Christ the minister of sin? God forbid.
18 For if I build again the things which I destroyed, I make myself a transgressor.
19 For I through the law am dead to the law, that I might live unto God.
20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.
21 I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.
It seems to me that a standard has been set by Paul by which we are to hold leaders accountable and that standard is based at least partially on the abolishment of elitism.
I have to get out and do some Christmas shopping this afternoon so I will check back later. This just really struck me earlier today and I thought that I would share it.
MJM said..I would rather know that people who sing in the choir at my church are singing to the Lord because they LOVE him, wouldn't you?
I very much agree with you on this issue.I once listened to a recording of the members of small Primitve Baptist Church in rural W.Virginia. To listen to these people sing out with nothing but a heartfelt love of God was more moving and beautiful to me than any of the slick professional "shows" we see today.
tim, custos, telos, all,
Let me clarify what I mean by "law"...when I saw "law" I'm referring only to the moral law...the decalogue..not the ceremonial law. And I agree with custos, that all things come together in Christ. Christ is indeed the fulfillment of all things...He is the fullest and final Revelation of God to man. In Him is all the fullness of the Godhead bodily. He fulfilled all the law..including the ceremonial law without leaving anything out...so that He might be Lord and Christ to both Jew and Gentile.
maybejustmaybe wrote:
"I would rather know that people who sing in the choir at my church are singing to the Lord because they LOVE him, wouldn't you? Thank God, He has put enough talented folks at BBC to populate the choir without having to resort to such practices."
I agree. Do you feel that way about the orchestra, too? Because some of the Bellevue orchestra members are paid now.
Personally,
I think a church should use whatever God has provided for it..regardless of how talented or untalented, seeing that it is God who forms the local body...imho, going outside and hiring professionals is kind of like saying what God has provided isn't good enough...I don't think He's impressed with how professional we sound...more the attitude of the heart..I think 20 people singing off key with an out of tune piano is just as pleasing to God, if that is what He's provided, and they sing and play with grateful hearts that beat for Him
I think that's a good point, Tim. And that passage is so important also because it shows that even those who have literally walked and talked with the Lord, who are certainly ordained of Him, still make mistakes and need to be corrected. I love Paul's certainty: "I withstood him to the face, because he was to be blamed."
Another thought: Was Paul wrong to bring up Peter's sin? After all it was under the blood (as so many at Bellevue are fond of claiming about administrative transgressions). I think this is a case of God showing that while the penalty of sin is dealt with in Christ, many of the consequences are not. Based on the wording of Mr Taylor's letter, I have to wonder if he would condemn Paul for citing Peter's failing in this passage.
custos,
sin is always sin...and we have a mandate to reprove it, rebuke it.
Galations 6:1 "Brothers, if someone is caught in a sin, you who are spiritual should restore him gently. But watch yourself, or you also may be tempted."
Mr. Taylor's letter reminds me of Mr. Tucker's quote at the CC meeting last Sunday:
"I have a 'BIBLE' class to teach."
Steve Tucker was quick to emphasis the fact that his teaching a "BIBLE" class was more important that wasting time with us mere mortal brothers and sisters in Christ. It was opportune that Chuck Taylor used the very same emphasis.
Sad commentary on the love of Christ.
AOG, I agree. That attitude seems to often be, "Oh, but it's just so much trouble--why bother?"
Apathy. Alive in well at BBC?
Mom4, isn't it just so gracious of them to even speak with us peons?
Custos,
And so humbly they grace us with their presence.
oops - there goes my monitor again - that fishbowl look is beginning to grow on me..
Yes. Humbly. ;-)
Watching the SCT streaming - have you seen it?
NBBCOF is correct about some of the orchestra members being paid. However, as far as we know, it is only 2 guitarists and the drummer. Most of the orchestra members don't know or don't agree. The decision to pay these people was made after Steve Gaines arrived. Quite frankly, it is a shame as Dr. Whitmire worked for years to remove all of the paid musicians and have an all volunteer orchestra.
Watching it now. The shepherd's scene is just SO good. When they first did it a couple of years ago I got to help rig one of the angels. That is such a great number!
Can't wait for Shine Down, No Room, and It is Finished!
To be very specific, the paid members are the drummer, bass guitarist, and guitarist. I saw this question posed earlier. And yes, some orchestra members are aware – many are not.
informed,
It is a shame, expecially since the previous orchestra was of the utmost quality and talent. Their performances were a cut above the classic elite! The present orchestra is good as well, but there is definitley something lacking now. I am thinking that it could be the music that they are given to play, but I think there have been several that have quit. Have you heard that?
Custon,
My daughter was an an angel for 2 years in a row and in the tree for a couple of years, when she went off to college, she was not here to participate. Sad for MOM.
It is winding down now (or should I say "winding up") I missed the first part of it - did they have an intermission?
I missed the first part too. Looks like neither I Have Seen the Light nor Do You Hear What I Hear made the cut this year.
Custos, (sorry aboout misspelling your name on prev post-just a typo)
I think they are getting there -
This always brings me to tears of joy!
IT IS FINISHD!
Folks we have been using professional orchestra people for years, even when we were downtown. Before someone jumps down my neck and ask how do I know, my former neighbor that lived two doors up played in the Memphis Symphony and was recruited to play in the SCT. She did for over 11 years and she was a member of another denomination. She loved it and yes she was paid.
This tone of saying it is wrong is crazy and very self-righteous. I am also very active in the Bill Glass Prison Ministries. We use famous people that have come to know the Lord to deliver the messgae and they used my Harley Davidson and my 4 tattoos when I was taking it into the prisons. Now I know there are some of are going to say that is bad too. The point is God has given us many, many resources to use to spread the Good News. Use them. I can assure you that HE was glad to have my Harley and my 4 tattoos. And I can guarantee you the inmates that I have led to the Lord over the years are grateful too.
Saying the use of paid professionals is wrong is also wrong. It is amazing how all this got started. It was over a question about one singer and who is was. And from there it has gone off on something that is disgraceful.
Once again, before folks get down on me. I too have been critical of some things that have gone on at Belleuve so I am not part of "that other group."
Please take a breath before you type and ask the Holy Spirit to guide you.
Bellevue is, was and will be a great church. It does have a special place in God's heart. Regardless of who is guiding it, it will survive. Please consider what you are saying when you post of this stuff.
david brown,
You're certainly entitled to your opinion.
Many orchestra members are no longer playing because of frustrations with the music as well as the leadership. The numbers have greatly reduced over the last 12 months. Some have even left the church. Others are still members, but they have chosen to sit out for a while.
The primary reason that the PAC (Performing Arts Center) was formed several years ago was to groom our (Bellevue) own musicians that could someday play the music that is used for the productions – Passion Play (former Living Pictures), Singing Christmas Tree (SCT). In the early years of the orchestra, the volunteer members played throughout the week and in most of the productions. However, a huge number of professional musicians were hired for the SCT.
There are many excellent musicians in the orchestra – and have been for many years now. For the past several years, there have been no paid musicians in the orchestra…until recently with the drummer, bass guitarist, and guitarist.
David B...
Sorry if I offended you. I was not aware that we used paid musicians and just asked about it. From what was posted here, we had gotten away from paid musicians and were using our own talent - which I think is great. I agree that the Lord can, has and will use anybody anywhere and we are to provide ourselves sacrifically to Him for His glory. I personally thank you for your testimony and your work in prison ministries. That is possibly one of the most difficult groups to reach and it is admirable that you have given yourself to that end. May the Lord bless your efforts and those whose lives you touch with your efforts.
In Christ Alone,
MOM4
Ooo, a Shine Down reprise. I approve.
And apparently a version of Joy to the World written by Bob James. =) Jazzy and fun.
On another note - the version of "Joy to the World" completely dampened my spirit of worship!
I am showing my age -re: JOY to the World ;-)
Sorry to hear that. It's no classical Joy to the World, but for what it was I liked it ok. I don't think it was especially right for the Tree, much like the new song they play for the wise men processional. But with certain key voices from I Have Seen the Light having fallen casualty to BBC mess, the options may have been limited. =)
Wow, this thread has wandered all over the place since it started. We've hit deacon letters, theology, preaching style, PDC stuff, darker issues, orchastra payments, and SCT play-by-play reviews.
custos,
LOL
True, True,
I cannot help but admire Ken Reich. He is SUCH a professional. I would love to have seen him succeed Dr Whitmire one day when Jim decided to retire in his own timeframe. Ken would have been perfect by then (although he could handle it right now), he has matured musically so much under Dr Whitmire and has a wonderful voice and is very talented instrumentally as well as vocally. And the best thing is that he loves the Lord with all his heart and the choir and orchestra love him as much as he loves them -from the oldest to the youngest!
Ken is one of the most gracious people I've ever met. An endorsement for a current staff member from any of us is probably dubious at best, but Ken has mine nonetheless. =)
You might have given Ken Reich the kiss of death :)
On the Gardendale blog, responding to a comment about what Steve Gaines did to the Minister of Music someone said this:
2108.1. To two Ministers of Music.....a youth minister; and anybody else that he thought might have a following. His term for himself was, "benevolent dictator". How are you both...you cannot dictate and be benevolent. I tell you our staff, NOW, are like birds out of a cage. One of them was asked one Wednesday night "have you talked with Steve?" His response, "not in about 5 yrs."
Unlike other staff members, he has kept himself above the fray from either view.
I'm curious as to why we even NEED an 'lectric guitar, thumping bass and little drummer boy in the church orchestra, especially if we have to pay them? Does the music quality suffer significantly if they are absent? Is the worship lacking without these instruments?
David B, how do you know "Bellevue has a special place in God's heart"? Is there some scriptural criteria for this assessment? I'm sure there would be a lot of churches who would like to know how to become "special" to God. Or could it be the oft-mentioned mega-church ego that makes us think we're more special than others? If you're really brave, I'd like for you to post that thought over at the baptistlife.com message boards and see what others think about Bellevue being "special". I have a friend who left BBC a few months back and they are in a small church and I'll bet they'll say their church is just as special.
P.S. Man, we need a message board. These blog posts are quite messy. Custos, you might find the baptistlife message boards a good place to talk politics & such. You and I are political blood brothers, I believe....I vote Republican with strong Libertarian leanings. Republicans disgust me only slightly less than Democrats. If you didn't know, Dr R also had strong libertarian leanings, or so I was told by Greg Addison, who used to be on staff at BBC a few years ago.
RE: the Kiss of Death,
There would be no call for something like that to happen just because we commended a young man for being above reproach in his Christian walk and gave him kuddos for a job well done. I would hope that Steve Gaines would not hold our respect for Ken against him. That would be dubious at best if Ken were to be let go, especially now! I would also think that we would loose more members over something like that, but then again, I do not believe Steve Gaines cares about any of us. Steve Gaines is all about Steve Gaines. Custos, should we delete our posts?
custos/swtt,
I think Mike Bratton it the "designated clapper" for the pastor, but I'm pretty sure he designated himself!
Ed_t and Custos,
"You and I are political blood brothers, I believe....I vote Republican with strong Libertarian leanings. Republicans disgust me only slightly less than Democrats."
and then there were three!
We need to start a local Libertarian Party here, because my hubby & I are the same - that makes FIVE!
most all politicians disgust me
so i guess i won't be invited to anyone's $500/plate fundraisers..LOL
We have politicians in our church, some in leadership positions:)
mom4,
I think they've been taking lessons.
For what it's worth, "I Have Seen the Light" was the featured special music in this morning's service and it was awesome. Also, I just came home from the SCT and in my opinion, it was incredibly good both musically and theatrically. The "tried and true" songs that they kept were just the right ones, and many of the new ones were very well-done. And I agree, you can't beat "I Have Seen the Light" for the kings' pageant -- I didn't particularly care for the song they used this year for that, either. And "It Is Finished" made me cry like a baby just like it always does. We had to leave as Bro. Steve was starting his portion because our little one was very restless -- so I missed the finale. But I was very glad we took the time to go tonight. Such a blessing.
custos,
The choir sang "I have seen the LIght" this morning in worship. I've always loved that song, but I just realised this morning it starts out "I was a seeker..." and I got Rick Warren induced shivers!
Lessons in politics or leadership? Neither seem to have passed the final exam - perhaps the lessons were taken in the City of Memphis.
("I Have Seen the Light" was sung this morning by Steve McCune, Greg Parchman, and Michael Fields, by the way ...)
mjm,
I agree. "It Is Finished" is one of the all time greats! Worth every tear.
Allofgrace,
"most all politicians disgust me"
Same here, ergo the libertarian leanings.
I'm with President John Adams who said, "Nip the shoots of arbitrary power..." Our country should have listened to him.
Arg, then I tuned in too late to hear it this mornign, and I do love it when Parchman sings that song. Steve McCune is my all time favorite. Former Sunday school teacher of mine and all around great guy.
As for the politics, I find it hard to believe that there are so many of us rare libertarianish types here. Could it be that the value we place on individuals and their right to govern themselves is part of what drives us in the Bellevue mess. Also our extreme appreciation for strict construction--whether it be biblical or consitutional. Just a thought . . .
Ed, WTB, Mom and Co.,
Nice to find fellow lib types. I want a message board too. There are some great programs out there, but our little band probably doesn't want to fundaraise for one. Of course, it never hurts to ask. =)
Josh
WTB, custos,
I guess my disgust is rooted in the "unrealness" (if that's a word) of the majority of the politicos. They talk a good game, but no real substance. They have their own language...which is just Orwell's "newspeak".
They hand us a pb&j and then try to convince us that it's really t-bone.
Or with Repubs, they promise not to hand us pb&j and then cram t-bone down our throats! Can anyone say Bridge to Nowhere? And that was a bloody republican!
Don't think so ez
I saw "Needful Things" - and oh wasn't it full of "Human Nature"!!
Just imdb'd it. A faust tale. I think it's going into my netflix queue. Thank Ez!
Add one more to the libertarian group. Although, I do wish that they could get there act together on military necessities.
Just a quick note on politics, no matter where you find them. They do seem to turn up in places that they don't belong ... ie church. Has anyone ever noticed that when a political ship begins to fill with water that they start throwing men overboard before cargo? I wonder in our situation who is going to throw who out first. I believe that I can see it coming from a mile away. If I had to guess I would say that the one postured in front of the public will ultimately hold the power to dismiss the cabinet.
Just a little food for thought. By the way I didn't create this political mess but it doesn't take a seasoned professional to figure it out.
could I get a brief synopsis?
ez,
you got that right.
And you can guess who the proprietor of the store really was???
ps.
I had meant to say politicians show up in the oddest places...ie church and not government politicians either.
Custos,
"Could it be that the value we place on individuals and their right to govern themselves is part of what drives us in the Bellevue mess."
I cannot speak for everyone else, but that is certainly a factor for me. And in times past it would have been for most Baptists.
Anyone who has studied Baptist history knows freedom of conscience has always been a major Baptist principle. Baptist minister Thomas Helwys died in an English prison after boldly proclaiming his belief in liberty and freedom of conscience. I believe it was King James I (of the King James Bible fame) who threw him in prison for his "radical" beliefs.
Roger Williams founded the first Baptist church in America after being kicked out of Massachusetts by religious authorities because of his commitment to freedom.
In the 1800's Henry Vedder wrote the "glory of Baptists" was that "they were the first to advocate religious liberty for all people. The corollary of this doctrine," he continued, "was the rejection of all human authority and the assertion of the right of all persons to interpret the Scriptures for themselves, as inspired by the Holy Spirit."
Nearly 100 years ago, E.Y. Mullins, an early president of Southern Baptist Theological Seminary, wrote, "The great principle underlying religious liberty is this: God alone is Lord of the conscience."
Dr. Mullins also said, "the significance of the Baptists in relation to the individual is soul freedom." Further, "the doctrine of the soul’s competency in religion under God is the distinctive historical significance of the Baptists."
WTB, that post made me want to stand and cheer. Then I was afraid that that might be construed by some as approving of the administration at bellevue. Also i had a cookie in my hand which complicated matters. All that aside, I LOVE that post, especially the last two paragraphs. Is Baptist history a hobby of yours?
I do believe that's the visit during which Steve Tucker referred to Dr Rogers as the "spinmeister." Correct me if I'm wrong.
ezekiel,
I've not talked to Dr. Spradlin about that visit directly, but two men who have talked to him told me the same story. As you said it was Steve Tucker and his buddy, Chuck Taylor. Talk about hubris!
I would love to have been a fly on the wall. I believe they received their comeuppance.
EZ,
From what I have heard, there were a other confirmations as well. I am praying that some may yet reach the light of day this week.
The Lord is definitely moving.
the one problem I have with Mullins' thought is...if the scriptures are open to individual interpretation, then how is truth defined? In other words...what's truth for me IS truth..what's truth for you IS truth. See my point?
Custos said...
I do believe that's the visit during which Steve Tucker referred to Dr Rogers as the "spinmeister." Correct me if I'm wrong.
Josh,
You have got to be kidding me. Was that a well placed knife in the back or did Tucker consider that to be a compliment. I can not recall a single solitary instance that Dr. Rogers put a spin on anything. He never had to. When he goofed up he said so and one thing that we could always depend on was the truth.
ez,
that's the general consensus...control freak.
And why Mike Spradlin did not get a nod from the Search committee.....I wonder??? Could it be that those IN power would have lost it??
Harry Smith was all over that whole merger thing regarding Mid-America and Union.
Tim, I'm not joking in the least.
The context was as follows, "BBC had a lot problems before Dr Rogers left. It's just that now the spinmeister isn't here . . . "
That's not a direct quote. It is the context. The word "spinmeister" was used were I placed it.
It made my blood boil.
There was a meeting held at MABTS on Thursday, 08/24/06. It was set up by Chuck Taylor. He wound up taking Steve Tucker with him to meet with Dr. Mike Spradlin. It was in this meeting that Steve Tucker said that “the principles of Matthew 18 do not apply to the pastor.” It was in this meeting that Steve Tucker and Chuck Taylor were both rebuked. Interesting that the Deacons haven’t said anything about this….
I should add, that came to me indepndently from two different people--both of whom would know for sure. Hate to say it, but I can't reveal the IDs.
these guys have completely lost it.
We all know that that is not the first time Tucker has acted inappropriately, disrespectfully, arrogantly and ignorantly. If the saddle fits....
custos,
First time that I have heard it and it makes me want to jerk a knot in someones tail.
That has to be one of the most hateful remarks that I have heard.
I'm surprised that I'm not shooting blood thru my pores at this moment.
WTB,
Didn't Chuck Taylor get removed as a trustee at MABTS after that?
mom4,
If the saddle fits... then put your skinny little smart aleck fannie on it and ride into the sunset.
I don't believe that I have heard anything yet that has made me so livid.
ez,
The judaizers in Galations were trying to enforce ceremonial law on the gentile believers..circumcision etc.
Just to put my 2 cents in…it is definitely true that Chuck Taylor took Steve Tucker with him to visit with Dr. Spradlin. In this meeting, ST did state that “the principles of Matthew 18 did not apply to the Pastor.” It is also true that Tucker and Taylor were both rebuked by Dr Spradlin for saying that.
Taylor & Tucker are part of the church leadership...and I believe they are part of the problem. What are our leaders thinking???
mom4,
by the way not you...I was just finishing that sentence for you.
Custos,
I studied Baptist History and Christian History in college. It has been 20 years, but I remember a thing or two. Also, I fondly remember my father's empassioned expositions of Christian and civic principles at the dinner table. As a boy I found it tiresome. As a man I find it priceless.
I have been concerned for some time about the drift of the SBC. The Conservative Resurgence was an absolute necessity, but we seem to have lost our moorings to some of the great historical Baptist principles such as the "priesthood of the believer" and "soul competency." Combine that with the overall paucity of critical thought among evangelicals and you get a mess. You end up with folks in the pews who do not know why they are Baptist, if they ever knew.
Allofgrace,
It is my understanding Chuck Taylor was summarily removed from the Board.
Who knows, perhaps he just "rotated off."
WTB,
LOL..I'm sure that's the "spin" anyhow.
I had the opportunity to see the last taped message Dr Rogers made. It was handled by Global Pastor's Network for the Pastor's Training Institute via LWF I think. I remembered those last days of Dr Rogers and I talked to him momentarily on the Monday or t may have been Tuesday prior to his final hosptial admission - he was meeting with Spradlin - they were touring the then unfinished MABTS - you could see on the taped message and I could see in person that he was not himself, but still a great man of God.
All that to say this - this was soon after the time of the "key" incident and I could see that he was not himself. The arrogance of this leadership from the top down the ranks - with very few exceptions - is an abomination. Their time is coming and coming from the Lord, not from us. I know in my "knower" that the Lord has placed us where we are for such a time as this. He is cleaning house at Belleve Baptist Church and has used Steve Gaines to open the door. I am honored to be there, but I will have to turn away when they leave, then shake the dust off my feet.
I know, Tim. Dr Rogers the "Spinmeister."
There's a passage in Nehemiah where he threatens to come off the wall and lay hands on either Sanbalat or Tobias. Needless to say, I felt similarly after hearing that.
One more time for effect: Dr Adrian Rogers, hero of the faith: "Spinmeister."
Truly the enemy was alreay in the gates.
Tobiah, not Tobias. Sorry.
Ez, I put it in context in an above post.
WTB, EZ, Mom4,
I talked to Mike Spradlin right after "the visit". You are right - they (Chuck Taylor / Steve Tucker) did get their comeuppance and then some!
If I can post more specific details I will.
Line from I Have Seen the Light...
"I looked for truth but settled for lies."
Sounds like a description of a CC meeting.
ez,
Thou shalt never question thy pastor, even if he be apostate. Ye shall also have no pastor before him.
Mom4,
I did not ask anyting about the child and I have no qualms about the child in question performing in the SCT, as long as she is a member.
I know you didn't ask anything about her...my comment wasn't directed towards you.
You are saying that we have non-members in the choir? How & when did that happen?
Yes...it's been that way for a while. Youth are allowed to participate in SCT if they are members of the Senior/Junior High Choir. Is there something wrong with that?
And I'm off to bed folks. Sweet dreams.
ace,
not one person has said there was anything wrong with the girl being there singing.
Let us not forget, too, that it was Steve Tucker who argued that it is ok for a Bellevue staff member to purchase alcohol...if...if...if...if...if...if...if...if....
At the CC meeting (for music participants) last Sunday evening, he argued (and mocked and rolled his eyes and interrupted and mumbled) that “we should not cast stones” and that this could have been an opportunity for this staff member (David Coombs) to show love to his sister (who had the wine). Steve Tucker…what a leader.
custos,
sleep in peace brother
WestTN,
This forum is about Bellevue, that is why she matters to this forum.
Okay then...let's talk about the 3 year old classes next, mkay? Even if something is Bellevue related does not mean it should be posted on this forum.
I don't care who you are
Good for you.
you have no right or ability to control what we discuss or what we think. If you don't like it, don't read it.
Take a deep breath....it's gonna be alright.
Also, I thought you guys were under orders to stay away from the forum.
If I was, that would be my business and not yours...right? Right.
We've not heard her sing before and wondered why.
Were you at Tree last year? She had a solo...what about when the Sr. high choir sings? She is actually featured quite a lot...
It's hardly surprising my question made no sense because you have proven yourself incapable of understanding a lot of things.
Oh really? Tell yourself that if you want to.... that must help you sleep at night. ;)
ez,
LOL
The sad thing about all of this is that the leadership has told (or tried to tell)everyone not to read this blog or anything else that may provide the truth. And the saddest thing is, these people are following those directions. They don't think for themselves, they don't pray about it, they don't see what God's Word says about it - they just do what they are told. Dr Rogers always said for us NOT to take his word for things - look it up and see what GOD says about it - How can that many people sleep thru this????
trucker,
it's his nature to attack the questioner and forget the sustance the question.
Where have I attacked someone? Oh wait...I haven't!!!! Get your facts straight...oh wait...that's probably impossible for half of the people here... (not an attack, just the truth from what I've seen here already)
Why Ace... you are NOT supposed to be here - did you not read the letter??? You may be cast into utter darkness if they find out:)
Mom4 -
You've asked some specific questions about the orchestra:
The reason for "something lacking" is pretty much as you stated. First of all they have lost many members to both the mess at church and ongoing problems with the music leadership. The second MAJOR problem is the type of music they are now playing. Quite frankly it's "back-up" music with no real musical quality - it can be played by the rhythm section. Many in the orchestra feel like they are not needed and it's only a matter of time until it is reduced to keyboards, drums and guitars. Some might ask "then why do they stay and play?" Because it is their ministry and they play for the Lord.
Good night Custos, enjoyed the play by play.
Mom4,
The orchestra played the theme from "Star Wars" & other songs from the latest and greatest the world could offer.
Give me a break. There has always been a movie section of the program for as long as I can remember. What exactly is wrong with that?
Although all of the performances for BBC productions are mostly on the up & up, one can't help but see some of the world sliding in and the majority of folks accepting it without question. One in particular I personally remember was the "lounge lizard trumpet bling" with Charles Billingsly and Carter Threlkeld.
I actually enjoyed that piece...just my opinion, though!
I guess that is another case of the devil creeping in and fools that we are, we let him.
This I disagree with. So Rev. Carter is helping out the devil by playing his trumpet? Again, give me a break. That comment was uncalled for.
Whatever happened to Gospel Music, or the songs of the founding fathers of our faith who were devout theologians and wrote the music inspired by God?
Go to any service and you'll get your dose of hymns. Worship is worship whether the song is 100 years old glorifying God or 1 hour old.
here's a fact..ace, you're one grumpy person.
InformedatBBC,
However, as far as we know, it is only 2 guitarists and the drummer. Most of the orchestra members don't know or don't agree.
FactsOnlyPlease,
To be very specific, the paid members are the drummer, bass guitarist, and guitarist. I saw this question posed earlier. And yes, some orchestra members are aware – many are not.
And those three people should be paid. Do you know exactly what they do each week? Do your research and you'll see that the devote tons of hours a week to the services.
custos,
I had to check away from my laptop for a few minutes to walk it off (it didn't work either).
This coming from an enemy would have been terrible, but from a trusted friend or what was thought to be a trusted friend anyway. I find it appauling.
Not to mention that it reveals what he truly believes of our church. Or the fact that he realizes that they have a need to put a spin on things.
It's my understanding the Chuck Taylor has never been on the Board of Trustees at the seminary. It was HarrySmith that was voted off the Board of Trustees.
Harry Smith was manuevering behind the backs of the other board members trying to "do a deal" without the knowledge of the rest.
Boy, does that sound familiar. Harry Smith's philosophy is if his money is in it, it's his.
This is nothing new to the folks that have dealt with him for years.
Bellevue is the same. Since his money is in it, his philosophy is that it's his.
Dittos to what ‘informedatbbc’ said regarding the music. Let’s just say that he/she ‘hit the drum right on the head.’ The post at 10:55pm is correct, and I could not have stated it any more accurate. Thanks!
Sport,
"Even if something is Bellevue related does not mean it should be posted on this forum."
I will decide for myself, based on my own conscience, what I should and should not post. I certainly will not take my cues from you or our church "leaders."
Yes, your earlier post irritated me and I responded. It was an irritant because you turned a simple, innocent question into something it wasn't. You have learned from your leader well. He does not like questions either.
FactsOnlyPlease,
Many orchestra members are no longer playing because of frustrations with the music as well as the leadership.
How exactly do you know this? Please give us some more information on this...I'd love to hear it. And is everyone leaving because of the issues on this forum? What about illness or sickness that prevents several members from playing anymore (at least 4 I can think of off-hand...) what about them? Are you counting them in your stats?
The numbers have greatly reduced over the last 12 months.
Again - you know this how? How many people have we lost?
The primary reason that the PAC (Performing Arts Center) was formed several years ago was to groom our (Bellevue) own musicians that could someday play the music that is used for the productions – Passion Play (former Living Pictures), Singing Christmas Tree (SCT).
No, that's not the primary reason...get your facts straight. Call the office tomorrow or view their website to view their mission statement.
Ed_T,
I'm curious as to why we even NEED an 'lectric guitar, thumping bass and little drummer boy in the church orchestra, especially if we have to pay them? Does the music quality suffer significantly if they are absent?
Yes it lacks a lot, actually...
"Were you at Tree last year? She had a solo...what about when the Sr. high choir sings? She is actually featured quite a lot..."
Is there a point in there somewhere?
Ace... Carter was and has been reprimanded by Dr Rogers in the past for trying to "get away" with playing inappropriate music. I heard him with my own 2 ears and saw it with my own 2 eyes and it was no where near as bad as the Billingsly/Threldkeld routine.
By the way, Carter's piece in the SCT was fantastic! Enjoyed it, I did!
ace,
take a break...we'll still be here tomorrow...don't spend so much time brooding over the existence of this blog...you'll get ulcers
ACE SAID...
And those three people should be paid. Do you know exactly what they do each week? Do your research and you'll see that the devote tons of hours a week to the services.
10:58 PM, December 10, 2006
Ace,
If we pay the guitar player, should we pay the Sunday School Teachers?
Mom4,
Why Ace... you are NOT supposed to be here - did you not read the letter??? You may be cast into utter darkness if they find out:)
Then I guess I'll just have to deal with that, won't I?
Allofgrace,
here's a fact..ace, you're one grumpy person.
Thanks for the observation, buddy.
Tim...
getting back to the "saddle" comment - I knew what you were talking about - I was actually referring to Baalam's donkey...you remember ...the talking one...
InformedatBBC,
First of all they have lost many members to both the mess at church and ongoing problems with the music leadership.
Wrong.
The second MAJOR problem is the type of music they are now playing.
Wrong.
Quite frankly it's "back-up" music with no real musical quality - it can be played by the rhythm section.
Wrong.
Many in the orchestra feel like they are not needed and it's only a matter of time until it is reduced to keyboards, drums and guitars.
Wrong again, pilgrim.
Give us some info on how many people we lost...I'd like to hear that.
WestTN,
Is there a point in there somewhere?
Yes, and you obviously missed it. you said you never saw her before and I listed some previous productions for you.
mom4,
Interesting that you mentioned that and suddenly one showed up.
David Brown,
Prior to the recent practice of paying some orchestra members, the Bellevue orchestra has NOT used paid members as part of the regular orchestra in years. I know this as an absolute fact.
You are right, it was a common practice while the church was downtown, but as "facts_only_please" stated that's the reason the PAC was started over 20 years ago. It was to be the building program for an all-volunteer orchestra.
Mr. Brown, since you are no longer a member of Bellevue I think you may be basing your opinion on old information.
crrv,
You are correct. Harry Smith first started this several years ago. He was "outed" and exposed two years ago.
This has been in the works for some time. I think the "elders" running Bellevue have been working with Gaines for quite some time.
Gaines has had big ties to Union for years.
Is it ok, to let players work at clubs on Bill's Street on Saturday nights andthen show up at Church to serve on Sunday morning?
Mom4,
Carter was and has been reprimanded by Dr Rogers in the past for trying to "get away" with playing inappropriate music.
Like what? Could you list an example or two for me...I'm really curious.
I heard him with my own 2 ears and saw it with my own 2 eyes and it was no where near as bad as the Billingsly/Threldkeld routine.
And another question...why was that a "bad" piece? I'd like to hear your resoning behind that statement.
Allofgrace,
take a break...we'll still be here tomorrow...don't spend so much time brooding over the existence of this blog...you'll get ulcers
Huh? Am I posting too much? I'm sorry if I've upset you...but I have nothing else to do right now so I will spend my time here...
"Thanks for the observation, buddy."
no problem...seriously ace, all that anger is going to eat you alive.
Ace,
You are turning this into a "Hooters Club". Payed musicians playing at night clubs and then letting them serve at Church
Ace,
I did see the Christmas Tree last year. Thank you for asking.
For the record, I saw the very first Singing Christmas Tree. I must wonder if you were even born.
Tim,
I have tears in my eyes from laughing so hard, my family is in bed, I almost laughed out loud! You know, the outbursts of laughter from reading this blog is good medicine! A merry heart thing....
Allofgrace,
no problem...seriously ace, all that anger is going to eat you alive.
What is your problem with me? I have no posted any posts with anger. You called me grumpy and I said thanks for the observation....how is there anger in that post? You're not making much sense here.
Dare I say it...I'm sorry for being polite?
Ace-
You just about made me choke on my late night snack I was enjoying. These three musicians are not the issue. The issue is that they are paid, and the rest of the orchestra is not. I have done my research. I know the hours that all of the orchestra members put in. I do agree that these 3 are putting in extra time on Sunday mornings now with the sound checks, but it is because they are getting paid.
Oh, and yes, several orchestra members have left due to problems with the music and the leadership. This is factually 100% correct. I have done the research.
As for the PAC, my previous statement is correct. Ace…please get your facts correct.
Now….maybe I can continue with my snack without coughing….
ace,
post as much as you want...I'm just worried you're going to blow a gasket.
WestTN,
I did see the Christmas Tree last year. Thank you for asking.
You're quite welcome.
For the record, I saw the very first Singing Christmas Tree.
Congratulations.
I must wonder if you were even born.
Hmm...good thought...keep wonderin'!
and actually i don't even know you...so how can i have something against you?
I don't think Harry Smith really cared then or cares now about Steve Gaines. If Harry Smith could have used Steve Gaines then to help to merge the seminary with Union, he would have used anybody he could.
Quite frankly, I'm still not sure what Harry saw in Steve Gaines. If Harry Smith or the rest of the search committee had done their homework like many others who were not on the committee have done, they would have found out that he has been a dictator everywhere he's ever been.
Now, the Southern Baptist Convention is learing about the real Steve Gaines. This is actually a good thing.
Facts_Only_Please,
You just about made me choke on my late night snack I was enjoying.
Please stay safe.
These three musicians are not the issue. The issue is that they are paid, and the rest of the orchestra is not. I have done my research.
I disagree but it's nice to hear that you did your research...
I do agree that these 3 are putting in extra time on Sunday mornings now with the sound checks, but it is because they are getting paid.
Here's the deal...it's not just Sunday a.m. - that's where you're not 100 percent correct with posting your facts.
Oh, and yes, several orchestra members have left due to problems with the music and the leadership. This is factually 100% correct. I have done the research.
Really? You first said 'many' left but now you say 'several'...there is a huge difference.
As for the PAC, my previous statement is correct. Ace…please get your facts correct.
I know all the PAC staff and it's primary purpose is not to train kids to play for PP, SCT, etc. It's to help them develop their God-Given talents to glorify God and to actually help them learn how to play. If they want to play in the orchestra in later years, then by all means let them...I wouldn't complain!
Now….maybe I can continue with my snack without coughing….
Again...stay safe.
wtn,
I was at the first SCT's as well, but unfortunatly I did not get to see them for some years. My parents made me stay in the nursery and have juice and crackers!
Ace -
I have done my homework - I know what kind of time each dedicated orchestra member puts in - and guess what? They put in the same amount of hours without being paid!!! Did you know that one of the members has served as the librarian for years without being paid. Do you have any idea how many hours that takes each week?
If YOU did your homework you would know that some of the new "paid members" never put in the hours until they were paid.
Please I beg you do not demean what some of these members do - they are there week in and week out. They spend hundreds of hours each year praticing and preparing as a group for the many programs at Bellevue.
You insult each one of them if you actually defend the practice of paying some.
TURNONTHELIGHT,
I have to step in now. You are right, some of our musicians play at clubs and Carter allows them to play at Bellevue and also pays them
ace said...
Mom4,
Carter was and has been reprimanded by Dr Rogers in the past for trying to "get away" with playing inappropriate music.
Like what? Could you list an example or two for me...I'm really curious.
ONE prime example was at the Gary Smalley conference a few years ago. Carter & his band stopped playing when Dr Rogers came in.
Dr Rogers was so irritated, he said "He knows I would never let him get away with playing that kind of music in the church"
I heard him with my own 2 ears and saw it with my own 2 eyes and it was no where near as bad as the Billingsly/Threldkeld routine.
And another question...why was that a "bad" piece? I'd like to hear your resoning behind that statement.
My reasoning is that I was not saved until I was 33 - I heard the very same music in ungodly places. There is absolutely nothing edifying about it - it glorifies no one but themselves. My outlook on music is - if it does not glorify God, it is not Godly and should not be played in God's house.
If they want to have their own jam session in their garage - they can have at it, but please refrain in the Lord's house.
11:08 PM, December 10, 2006
I am just not sure how the MABTS/ Union thing has anything to do with Gaines?
crrv,
are you serious? Does it really have to be pointed out to you? Perhaps you are ace's cousin
WestTNBarrister, AllofGrace, Mom4, Ed_T, Custos, and Tim (and any others of like mind): please contact me regarding libertarian leanings, being fed up with Republicans, various other political subjects and setting up a forum. I think we all need to get together.
My email and other contact information is available on my profile.
InformedAtBBC,
I have done my homework - I know what kind of time each dedicated orchestra member puts in - and guess what? They put in the same amount of hours without being paid!!!
Since you did your research, how many hours exactly do these people put in each week?
You insult each one of them if you actually defend the practice of paying some.
I beg to differ...I have not insulted anyone in the BBC Orchestra. Here's something not mentioned here yet...Josh Stewart (the church pianist) gets paid too! How dare they pay him...
What is going on with P.W. ??
Great Point crrv!
It's a little known fact, but I collect a stipend from the music office each week to NOT sing in the choir!
ch,
will do
crrv,
I don't believe that Gaines orchestrated anything. But it is interesting that the search committee would have wanted someone that they knew nothing about so badly that they would ask over and over. The search committee or at least some of them probably knew full well that Gaines was on the borad of directors at Union.
Now as this political boat begins to take on water, who the first man overboard will be is anyone's guess.
finance guy,
LOL...you too eh?
I have seen the Light was sung in the morning worship service, and it was great!
Crrv,
There is nothing wrong with paying those people, no. I agree with you....except for when you called me ridiculous ;)
Ace -
you have disputed everything I said. I can say this with certainty: Unless you are Carter Threlkeld it is you who are wrong.
I don't think we need to bog down the blog with this, so if you would like to email me please feel free to do so.
Suffice it to say I have VERY specific first hand information.
Lighthouse,
What is PW?
Ezekiel,
When I first learned about the key incident it sickened me. That was months ago and it still bothers me.
He is really proud of that office.
Are you aware he ordered his brand new carpet replaced? His reasoning: "it's not soft enough for my feet."
The suggestion was made to install a thicker pad, but that wouldn't do. He had it all ripped up and replaced.
Ask Mark Daugharty about this, he backed up the pastor's directive to replace the carpet and told them to do whatever he wanted.
The men who hold the Bellevue checkbook in their hands are spendthrifts.
Tim,
You mean who is P.W. at Bellevue.
Chuck Taylor said,
This Sunday begins a new chapter and Deacons should show their love for our Pastor by faithfully serving the Lord Jesus Christ and
refusing to have anything to do with people, websites, meetings or conversations that rehash those things that have been proven false or the Pastor has asked forgiveness for.
Chuck,
Can you tell us just one thing that has been proven false?
Let's see. There was the dream that never happened and then it did happen. There was never any salary renegotiation and then there was. There was never any intimidation of employees, and then there was. There was never any misuse of Belleuve money on personal items and then there was. There was never any trespassing and then there was.
We could go on and on but why don't you save us the time.
Please, can you tell us one thing that was proven false?
And by the way, if you find out the identity of current leaders blogging or even speaking to anyone who does not support Steve Gaines, are you going to have them removed from leadership?
lighthouse,
Who is P.W. at Bellevue?
Tim,
Think about it???
WTB,
Tell me you're kidding about the carpet
I can vouch for the carpet. Steve Gaines walked into his new digs and stepped onto the beautiful carpet inside the study. It was new and fresh but it wasn't soft enough for his feet. Mark Dougharty thought ripping it up and putting down another type of new carpet would be better than telling Steve Gaines a thicker pad would do.
Perhaps Mark Dougharty should be asked how much money has been spent redoing his office in the past couple of years.
I call for an immediate investigation into the expenses surrounding office expense in the office of the Associate Pastor Mark Dougharty.
By the way, is David Combs and Mark Dougharty going to share the same office?
lighthouse,
if you are refering to what I think you are refering too, you should tread very very lightly.
Ezekiel,
NO
Wouldn't it be better for Bellevue to purchase some "soft souled" (get it) slippers for Steve Gaines to put on while inside the church?
lighthouse,
sorry no time for charades and not interested in exchanging any rumors. I would suggest that you do the same.
swtt,
I personally believe that he would be more comfortable in the back of a cabbage truck, but that's just my opinion.
Allofgrace,
I wish I was kidding. Who could make this stuff up?
Well, ace has spoiled my fun for the evening (as he grins with delight).
I'm going to get some much needed sleep. Goodnight ya'll!
Night mom!
I want to sat that it is with deep sadness that I post this comment. I am frustrated, and I do not know what to do. I am obviously nervous about even posting at all. I am scared for my family, especially because I am their sole provider. It has become made clear to me that I am not able to speak openly about some things which I am aware of without "serious ramifications" upon my job situation. Please pray for me as I consider what steps we need to take. The current mafia-like mentality needs to come to an abrupt end. There is no excuse for such behavior within the church. I have no plans to carry on a conversation at this time, but I felt it necessary to speak out, if only for this one time. God Bless.
Ace,
Several years, the orchestra had a stage band as part of the Singing Christmas Tree. The band played “In the Mood.” Several band members had flowery shirts and wore shades. That specific song was played on 1 night only – the opening night. It was pulled from the show in a meeting held AFTER the performance. It was not played any more because Dr. Rogers felt it sent the wrong message. This is a fact. Thanks and sleep well.
Sleep well, and thanks for helping my tired brain do a recall on an older Tree!
And...by the way...Josh has been on staff for a while. And, I might add, he is an excellent musician!
Oops...Make that "several years ago...."
Lighthouse,
I'm with Tim. Spill it or drop it, please. And spill it only if truly relevant. This is not the place for games.
Anonymous Deacon,
I am lifting you up even as I type. I am praying specifically for God to provide an extra measure of wisdom, discernment, and courage. God bless you for your service to our church and to our Lord.
I'm sure you know it was never true the deacons were united. Over the weeks I have spoken with, and received email from, a sizeable number of the deacons. Many are dealing with the same problem and they share your sentiment. Some have admitted they know what is right, but they don't know how to get there from here.
Dr. Rogers has been gone one year. How did we fall so far so fast?
lighthouse,
What's Phil Weatherwax done now? Written another letter to Josh?
WTB,anon deacon,
it's rarely ever a fast fall...it's by degrees...this whole mentality has been creeping into the church bit by bit over a period of years...it's just that now is it's comeuppance. The church has been lulled to sleep and lost it's discernment...or the will to discern...and now it's paying.
G'night, all. It's been a long day!
NASS
g'nite nass
Allofgrace,
But of course, you are right.
In have not responded to Chuck Taylor's most recent missive, but this passage from Isaiah immediately came to mind:
Woe unto them that call evil good, and good evil; that put darkness for light, and light for darkness; that put bitter for sweet, and sweet for bitter!
Woe unto them that are wise in their own eyes, and prudent in their own sight!
Ezekiel,
American Christians have been lulled into a sense of security few in history have known. Today many Bellevue men are being called to stand up for their beliefs for the first time when it might exact a cost. It's very easy to talk about biblical authority and truth when everyone around agrees with your position. Suddenly, it's not as easy.
Brothers,
Let's remember Jeremiah, our Lord, Paul, Luther, Calvin, Rogers....they all stood against the tide of popular opinion and dark times...let's take heart from their examples.
You are right, Allofgrace. As the wise spinmeister (what a farce!!) once wrote, "It is better to stand alone with the truth than to be wrong with a multitude."
G'nite all!
1. It is December 11, 2006. Did I miss an earlier business meeting this year and if so when did it occur?
2. Does BBC use Robert's Rules in business meeings?
3. Robert's Rules allows for nominations for offices such as BOD director from the floor unless the bylaws specifically set forth an alternative nomination process. I see no alternative process, so I'm thinking nominations from the floor for Mark Sharpe, West TN, AllofGrace, Mom4, Nass, Tim & maybe some others I left out would be pretty good nominees that we could make from the floor.
Is there a second?
Section III. DIRECTORS
The directors of the corporation shall be seven in number, shall serve for one year or until their successors are duly elected and qualified and shall be elected by the members of said Bellevue Baptist Church at the last monthly business meeting prior to the end of each calendar year, beginning with the year 1929.
aog,
You have mail.
Diana
For The Main Characters on the Boards of Union University, go to www.uu.edu and click on "main".
You will see Harry Smith AND Steve Gaines. They have been together a while!
Harry is top dog, while Gaines is down the list. I am sure a take over of MABTS would have been a feather in his cap!
See if you recognize any other names from BBC and let us know.
bin,
I have sat on 2 boards in the past, and do not want to get on this one. At this point in my life, I am not physically able to stand the challenge unless the Lord heals me. HOWEVER, our buddy, WTN has the know how AND the education!
Although I do appreciate your opinion of my worthiness!! Thank you!
Mark Sharpe, West TN, AllofGrace, Mom4, Nass, Tim & maybe some others I left out would be pretty good nominees that we could make from the floor.
Tell me their real names and there might be a sceond!
Flatfoot - no thanks! I am not ready to put my family thru what Mark Sharpe and others have been thru.
Ain't gonna happen!
bin----BEWARE
EZ,
This is blatant error! Made me ill! (then made me angry)
Tell me their real names and there might be a second!
Well, if we had business meetings we would know everyone's name. I'm pretty sure Mark Sharpe is his real name.
It is a fantasy anyway. The ruling elders would never allow it.
Good post, Bin. Sad too.
Am I the only one thinking about Les Miserables right now? "Who's going to cut the fat ones down to size," etc. I frequently see visions of M. Thenardier these days.
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