The Commercial Appeal's December 30th letters to the editor are here. You may recognize the writer of the letter entitled "The case calls for a dismissal."
Read the latest (December 27th) from the former "formerly brainwashed Bellevuer" aka "never put your faith in men!" and just think about it. A link to his blog, "Bellevue Baptist Church - My True Story" is in the sidebar on this page.
As he states, he is only expressing his own thoughts and observations which aren't necessarily the thoughts of those on this forum. This was merely a topic meant to generate discussion.
WCRV Radio (AM 640) interviewed Dr. Michael Spradlin, President of MABTS, on Thursday. The show is scheduled to be rebroadcast Saturday at 7:00 a.m., 6:30 p.m., and Sunday at 2:00 p.m. The 30-minute interview can also be accessed here.
Bellevue's website now has the 12-17 and 12-19 statements by Steve Gaines and the video from the 12-20 Wednesday night service here and a description of the Christmas Eve morning and evening services here.
Subscribe to:
Post Comments (Atom)
484 comments:
«Oldest ‹Older 201 – 400 of 484 Newer› Newest»OK watching,
What's your point? I did not realize that when you put your age in that Goog automatically puts your zodiac sign in.
And about my profile. I have the guts to put my name out there. How about you?
Heaven help us! I just went to Bellevue.org to view the Bellevue Today for 12/31, and in looking through it came across something stunning!
In the Career and Singles Ministry Announcements, the following is printed:
"New Year's Eve Party - Singles in their 20's and 30's are invited to the "Black and White Hollywood Night" at Quetzal at 8:00 p.m. tonight. Cost is $10.00."
Did you think you would ever see a Bellevue function advertised as "Hollywood Night"?
All we need is Bill Clinton as guest speaker!
mark,
Yes, i have been reading about it all day, off and on. It is sickening. I did not grow up baptist. I've only been a baptist for about 15 years.
I am beginning to understand why people have ' home churches'
Mark
Charles Page, please don't boot me
mark wiley,
Twelve men changed the world. First we need to get Bellevue back on track with Godly leadership, from the pulpit to the deacons to the laymen. Then we need to get into the SBC and start doing some serious house cleaning.
I have been thinking quite a bit about the working of the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit is to convict of sin, convince of righteousness and convert unto salvation. It seems that we have a lot of preachers working on an easy believism that preaches the convert unto salvation withou the conviction of sin or the convincing of righteousness. I just don't believe that the Holy Spirit can accomplish his complete work with only 1/3 of the sermon being preached.
Mark Wiley & Other readers,
Actually one man changed the world and split time in half for eternity. Twelve men did nothing but tell the story of one man and changed the world.
Brad,
Just checked out your link. Your baby girl is precious. You have a nice looking family.
I live in Cordova. LOL, i'm embarassed to admit that I do not know if you won or not!! LOL ( hanging head in shame)
I do not remember who i voted for in the primary, but rest assured, if you made it to the general election, i voted for you!
I tend to follow national politics more than local, and here lately, i have only been following the church politics. I can only absorb so much at once!!!
Watching,
I'm not the moderator.
Fedup,
Thank you for responding. I'm glad to see that ya'll are not sleeping on the job.
tim,
Without doubt the WHOLE counsel of God is missing from much of the preaching these days...but such is the result of unbelief in the sufficiency of scripture to "make one wise unto salvation"...resulting in methods instead of message.
Tim,
Check out Mahan's "The Missing Note in Present Day Preaching." It fits nicely with your last comment. It's about how men are led to make decisions for Christ without ever being convicted of their sin. It's a scathing indictment of modern preaching.
allofgrace,
Amen! The entire Word is not preached as it should be.
I was listening to Mahan earlier tonite and a thought occured to me.
It isn't about style or preference. Mahan was great in that message. J.Vernon McGee has been incredible in several that I have heard. Dr. Rogers was astounding in the messages that he delivered. Compare those three. Of course Mahan and J.Vernon McGee are somewhat similar in their delivery, but they are all different. It is the message not the man.
Same goes for the situation that we are in now. It was the message that was preached before the "informational meeting" that really caused me to start investigating deeper. I don't care how gifted a speaker is, if they can't rightly divide the Word of Truth they aren't that impressive.
Guys,
I think I just heard the Serta Sheep baaing in my bedroom. I think that they are lonely and looking for a good shepherd to come count them and make sure they are all there. However, if one of those sheep keeps me up baaing tonite then tomorrow I'm gonna be having lamb chops.
Goodnight all.
WTB,
He also pointed out repentance from original sin as well as actual sin.
Tim
Goodnight.
I posted something concerning the PW issue about a week ago, and I got no response. I'm going to try again, because to me, it leaves no room for personal opinions either way about how SG handled the situation. I've prayed about this, and I hope that I don't come across as some babbling, over-emotional person.
Let me just say, I, too, am a survivor of incest. My step-father was a deacon in our Baptist church, and he molested me from the time I was 3 yrs. old unitl I was 12,(when I ran away.) My mother knew and did nothing. When I was 10yrs. old, I couldn't take it any more, and told a school counselor. Of course, it all blew up in my face. Our family had to undergo "counseling" with our church Pastor, who blamed my mother for not being a good wife, and me for "ENTICING" my step-father. We ended our sessions with my mother and I having to APOLOGIZE to my step-father and telling him we loved him. He remained a deacon in that church for as long as we attended there. The thing that I remember the most vividly about the whole situation, was when my step-father was initially confronted with the accusations, he became enraged and yelled at me, "Where's your forgiving spirit, CHRISTIAN!!!???" Need I point out that he continued abusing for another two years following our "Godly Counseling". OK, enough personal details.
My husband and I came to bellevue about 5 yrs. ago and attened PW's BFC for several years. We have sat under PW's teaching about marriage, child-rearing, making Christ LORD, etc... I also had to be "counseled" by PW because I checked the "yes" box when questioned about prior abuse.--I guess emotionally why I'm so disgusted at the way SG handled the situation and why these standing "O"s turn my stomach is because when I saw SG get behind the pulpit and "address" the issue concerning PW and heard him say that he had known since JUNE, I felt betrayed all over again by a Pastor who , having not "just fallen of the turnip truck," should have known the Biblical mandates as to how to handle such a situation--not to mention just having the common sense to at least seek Godly counsel if he was so stunded or confused by the situation! I can't look at SG's face as he speaks anymore, much less give him an "O"--All I can see is the face of PW's precious little boy as I look at the face of my own darling son, (with his dimples and freckles, and his missing front tooth,)and I can see in my mind the image of PW's baby crying and begging him to please stop. I know the fear that PW's son probably felt any time his mother had to leave him alone with his father for any reason, (I remember begging my Momma not to leave me with "him", and the terror and dread that would wash over me as I would watch her walk out the door,) and I can imagine the DISGUST that PW's son must have felt every time he watched his father get behind the pulpit to lead in prayer or teach others about Jesus. And now, PW's son and his son's family are going to have to live with the stigma and sometimes overwhelming memories of the past. Maybe I'm getting too graphic here, and if so, NBBCOF, please delete my post.
Personally, I don't believe for a minute that SG is ignorant in matters concerning Biblical principals in how to handle such matters. 1 COR. 5 spells it out VERY clearly and answers any who continue to say "Who am I to judge--I have sinned in my life," "We should forgive PW--it happened so long ago--and he HAS BEEN IN COUNSELING, after all!" I believe SG made a foolish decision in direct oppostion to scripture, and yes, I DO expect more than that from my pastor! I'm sure some will say that I'm just spewing hate and anger--I hope that's not how I come across.
I have been praying for PW and his family, and I have forgiven my step-father, although I can't forget, (especially when things like THIS come up at CHURCH!) I am just so STUNNED and ASHAMED at the things that have been happening at our church.
Anyway, to all of the others out there who have lived through abuse--I'm praying for you.
And one other thought--I know we are all so angered and disturbed by the fact that SG put our children in harm's way--as well we should be. But, we should all be equally concerned that SG, in many instances, has gone against the instructions found in God's Word since he's been at Bellevue.
I'm going to copy 1 Cor. 5. I'm not a Biblical scholar, but it just doen't seem that God could have been any clearer in this matter. If I am not correctly understanding this passage, I would appreciate any other interpretations!
1 It is actually reported that there is immorality among you, and immorality of such a kind as does not exist even among the Gentiles, that someone has his father's wife.
2 You have become arrogant and have not mourned instead, so that the one who had done this deed would be removed from your midst.
3 For I, on my part, though absent in body but present in spirit, have already JUDGED him who has so committed this, as though I were present.
4 In the name of our Lord Jesus, when you are assembled, and I with you in spirit, with the power of our Lord Jesus,
5 I have decided to deliver such a one to Satan for the destruction of his flesh, so that his spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.
6 Your boasting is not good. Do you not know that a little leaven leavens the whole lump of dough?
7 Clean out the old leaven so that you may be a new lump, just as you are in fact unleavened. For Christ our Passover also has been sacrificed.
8 Therefore let us celebrate the feast, not with old leaven, nor with the leaven of malice and wickedness, but with the unleavened bread of sincerity and truth.
9 I wrote you in my letter not to associate with immoral people;
10 I did not at all mean with the immoral people of this world, or with the covetous and swindlers, or with idolaters, for then you would have to go out of the world.
11 But actually, I wrote to you not to associate with any so-called BROTHER if he is an immoral person, or covetous, or an idolater, or a reviler, or a drunkard, or a swindler--not even to eat with such a one.
12 For what have I to do with judging outsiders? Do you not judge those who are within the church?
13 But those who are outside, God judges. REMOVE THE WICKED MAN FROM AMONG YOURSELVES.
You can go to Crosswalk.com and find any passage of scripture in numerous different versions along with commentaries. Some of the things on this blog could be discussed and argued about until the cows come home because they are based on our personal opinions. Concerning this issue, I think it's clear--our opinions don't matter.
allofgrace,
One last thing. Thanks for pointing that out. I heard it but didn't recognize it, until you pointed it out. Now, there is something that I can put my head upon my pillow and pray about tonite. Thanks for pointing it out. That is special.
To notaclapper, wontclap4steve, chazzo, and friends:
RE: Sitting down front together at church.
Don't you think it would also be a good idea to say "amen" with great frequency while Steve is preaching?
I don't mean to use the word irreverently, but at times that we would mean it. I honestly do say "amen" a lot during the service. Little children turn around in their seats and look at me like I'm a fruit loop (or Froot Loop, if you prefer brand names.) I guess my doing so never bothered Dr. Gaines because I don't sit close to the front. At least nobody has ever contacted me yet with a personal request from the pastor to cease and desist with the "amens" as was requested of one other saint.
I see a lot of questions on here that really need to be answered. I also see some sincere requests such as those from Brad Jobe for prayer for his marriage. Brad, I WILL pray for your marriage. I can give you some great advice that I once heard a very excellent pastor teach on a marriage tape. He said that when he counsels prospective brides and grooms he gives this advice to the groom:
"Love her; love her; love her."
He gives this advice to the bride:
"Love him; love him; love him."
Plus it was an eye-opener to me to learn from Dr. Rogers' teachings that "to love" is a command, and that we DO it in obedience to the command. In other words, don't confuse the unselfish act of loving someone with the sensual type of "love" which might actually be more like "lust".
My husband and I have been married for almost 34 years, and I have to say that THAT advice helped us when we had been married about 27 years.
I DO LOVE my fellow Bellevuers. I love to encourage those that I meet at church when they are going through difficult times. I loved working in Community Missions and doing my own thing aside from the EE planned stuff. I never wanted to be "taught" (how to witness) but rather to be led by the Spirit (and HE DOES do it--tells you to go down there and witness to this one or that one.) I would call myself the "clean-up woman" because that is how the Lord uses me. For those of you who think we are causing discord, think again. We may be considered "the last" to some of you; but you know the Bible says, "But many that are first shall be last, and the last shall be first." (Matt. 19:30)
We love the Lord Jesus. We serve Him and Him only. There are many solid, tried and tested Christians over here. We have been chosen for this. This is not an easy thing to do. We do not want to cause trouble, but we ARE moved in our spirit to act and we do so in obedience to the Lord. We know the difference in the Lord speaking to us and the devil putting ideas into our heads. We know about testing the spirits (1 John 4:1) to see if they are of God. Oh, that you could see that this is of God.
Dee
P.S. For those of you who would criticize our being seated together near the front of the church and saying "amen", please be advised that our number one desire is to have a legitimate, open meeting with the pastor, the BBC leadership, and parties that have been wrongly treated, dismissed, bullied, condemned, and so on by said BBC pastor and leadership. This web log would have never come into existence had matters and members been properly and lovingly responded to by the previously mentioned persons. This particular web log was the offspring of the Commercial Appeal article which first informed the city and the world of our new pastor's having climbed over a posted, no trespassing fence.
prayingcolossians1,
You have every reason to be upset. There is a severe misunderstanding of forgiveness vs consequences. Rest assured God has no such confusion. There is also some really confused ideas about submission. From your story, I would assume both of these confused ideas were at work. My heart goes out to you.
praying
I am overwhelmed by your testimony.
I don't think that others realize the devastation that incest does to us. If they did, they would not give SG a standing O.
I foolishly checked the 'yes' box, too, and had to be further humiliated by bearing my sole to a pervert.
By the way, PW was still counseling people at the first of Dec. Guess SG didn't have a problem with that, either.
Please know that i understand your anguish and disgust. I am praying for you!!
prayingcolossians1,
I am so glad that I caught your post just before I shut down. Thank you so much for the insight. You could not be more correct. Our opinions all added up and bundled together would not come close to balancing against the Word of God. Let those that argue, argue with the Word.
AOG,
Yes he did.
1 Corinthians 15:1-2 says:
Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand;
By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain.
The words in bold ought to give us all great pause. Here are John MacArthur's comments on that text: "by this qualifying statement, Paul recognized and called to their attention that some may have had a shallow, non-saving faith. Some believed only as the demons believed (James 2:19), i.e., they were convinced the gospel was true, but had no love for God, Christ, and righteousness. True believers "hold fast" to the gospel.
Piglet:
Brad Jobe is talking about the verification letters that are all squiggly and sometimes sort of hard to read. You know, the ones you have to type into the box to verify that it is really you who is getting ready to post?
WTB,
We have to be convinced and convicted of the fact that we have sinned (actual sin)...and we are sinners (original sin), and of our absolute helplessness in our condition.
Can you honestly say that the Lord would want you to purposely disrupt a Sunday morning worship service?
I understand youhave your views, but is that really the best way to get the desired results you are after?
ok, so this is gonna be sooo off topic.
HOw do those little squiggly letters verify who is blogging?
I don't get it.
I thought that maybe it was an IQ test.
fedup,
It prevents spammer systems from logging in and distributing spam, since a program can't read.
I think the squiggly letters are harder depending on your views here!
(just a joke)
Just an outsider looking in, but the # you need to call is for DCS, not DHS. Child abuse investigations are handeled by the Department of Children's Services. I know some of the news stations continue to say DHS, but that is incorrect. The local # for DCS is 578-4000, but it is often difficult to get through to a live person. If you have knowledge of child abuse or neglect you should call their toll free hotline, 1.877.237.0004, but it should not be called to express concern about an ongoing investigation unless you have new information. DCS will not be able to give you any info about the investigation because of confidentiality.
I am not a member of BBC, so I am not trying to weigh in on anything regarding the leadership; however, as Christian, a member of an SBC church, and as a person with a calling to the field of social work, I am very disturbed by the lack of knowledge, concern, and information people in the SBC and community at large appear to have as it relates to sex abuse, consequences of the abuse, and the importance of reporting the abuse, no matter how old.
I don't think leaving the demonation is the answer, becuase this will just allow the atmosphere of ignorance to continue. I think we should take this as an opportunity to educate not only our leaders, but our congregations about all aspects of sex abuse. I often find that people do not want to talk about abuse because it is too disturbing to think about. If it is too disturbing for us to even think about, imagine the effect it must have on victims. The church (and by this I do not just mean the SBC) has claimed ignorance of this issue for far too long. We cannot continue to use "ignorance" as an execuse in 2006. The statistics on the prevelance of sex abuse are astounding, meaning that many of the those in the world hurting and lost are victims of the very thing the church is ignoring.
While I understand this is a personal issue for those who are members at Bellevue, I see it as a wake up call and opportunity for the rest of the church to take notice and start taking action. I guarantee you that while the details may be different, there are more of these situations out there in the church than any of us can imagine. We should all be standing up and demanding that our individual churches, our convention, universiities, and seminairies begin proving more infomration and teaching on this issue. I will continue to keep Bellevue and this situation in my prayers.
memphis wrote:
"So what do you think Saddam said when he met his maker?"
I don't think Saddam met his Maker in the place he went. But to answer your question, several things come to mind.
1. "Uh oh."
2. "What! No virgins?"
NBBCOF,
ROFL!!!
Reading over this, I can't find just one thing that I want to say. Mostly - that I'm praying for you all...and for Bellevue, and for Steve Gaines, and for the other leadership of our wonderful church. I fully 100% stand behind my pastor and our church's leadership. I felt like someone needed to say that. I don't agree that PW should remain on church staff - though I understand that investigations and legal issues have to be resolved before he can be officially let go. However, I DO NOT Believe my pastor should resign. I also think that anyone who posts libel against men with Godly character and integrity (and I can say this because I know one in particular personally and very well and I know beyond a shadow of a doubt that untruths have been posted on this site about him - and it brings me to tears) anyway --- those people who post libel about Godly men will be dealt with.
I'm praying for you all.
bellevuefrined61
How much character integrity does it take to look the other way while a pedofile roams the halls?
bellevuefriend61 wrote:
"I also think that anyone who posts libel against men with Godly character and integrity (and I can say this because I know one in particular personally and very well and I know beyond a shadow of a doubt that untruths have been posted on this site about him - and it brings me to tears) anyway --- those people who post libel about Godly men will be dealt with."
By all means, if you know of an inaccuracy ("libel" is by definition intentional, and I don't think anyone's intentionally posted anything untrue), then please correct the record. That's what we're about here -- truth. Just to say, "You're wrong," and not back it up with evidence is a hollow argument.
When you say your prayers, don't forget PW's son and all the other victims of incest/rape we've heard from today.
bellevuefriend61
How much character and integrity does it take to allow a pervert to continue to counsel women after he had ADMITTED to raping his own son?
BellevueFriend,
Do you realize that PW would STILL be on staff were it not for the leaks on this blog? How much character does it take to not be able to be decisive where such a horrible, henious sin has occured?
Where is YOUR line in the sand?
Fedupatbbc said: Do you realize that PW would STILL be on staff were it not for the leaks on this blog? How much character does it take to not be able to be decisive where such a horrible, henious sin has occured?
Where is YOUR line in the sand?
I drew my line in the sand long ago - do not judge me for it is not your place.
From the way I hear it, this came out due to a complaint in the family --- not from your website.
I want it understood - before I am stoned to death - that I do not in anyway defend the acts of PW - nor do I agree with the way the pastor handled the situation...but I'm not ready to throw him out.
I cannot comment on the integrity and character of Steve Gaines - except from what I have received from his preaching...which...by the way...I'd like it to be known that I have grown much closer to my Savior through this man's preaching.
The integrity I am speaking of is that of DC. I do not like his name being thrown around as just anyone on this site...he is a Godly Man with incredible amounts of integrity.
bellevuefriend said:
From the way I hear it, this came out due to a complaint in the family --- not from your website.
****
and you got your information from..... the bellevue leadership?
'nuf said about that..
I notice you did not answer my other questions, so i wil post them again, for your convenience:
1) How much character and integrity does it take to look the other way and allow an ADMITTED pedofile to roam the halls?
2) How much character and integrity does it take to allow a pervert on staff to continue counseling women?
bellevuefriend,
If you stand behind your pastor 100%, then you must agree with his decisions he made on these two questions?
Just curious.
Memphis:
Answers to your 1:04 AM post are as follows:
No, but it might wake up some sleeping daddies.
No, but did you not read my P.S. message?
1) How much character and integrity does it take to look the other way and allow an ADMITTED pedofile to roam the halls?
2) How much character and integrity does it take to allow a pervert on staff to continue counseling women?
I have no problem answering any of your questions. I addressed these already - please read the above posts.
I'd like to say to Brad - as your friend, please do not let your thoughts be swayed. I'm praying for you and your family - as I have been for awhile.
I said I stand behind him 100% -- not that I agree with him 100%.
I may stand behind my spouse 100% of the time...doesn't mean I always agree.
bellevuefriend61 wrote:
"The integrity I am speaking of is that of DC."
Was his ex-sister-in-law lying when she quoted him here?
bellevue friend said:
The integrity I am speaking of is that of DC. I do not like his name being thrown around as just anyone on this site...he is a Godly Man with incredible amounts of integrity.
****
If DC has such integrity and character, why did he lie to DAvid Brown about when the pastor knew it? He SPECIFICALLY told David Brown that the pastor had only known for a week or a week and a half. David Brown even called back to confirm it and DC told him that he was speaking for SG in an official capacity.
Who would have more reason to lie, David Brown or DC?
Please note that longtime poster "bellevue friend" and "bellevuefriend61" aren't the same person -- just to avoid confusion.
NBBCOF
Seems to me that everyone is lying EXCEPT DC
I haven't said anyone is lying. I think that Dottie, David's sister in law, took what he told her out of context. Knowing this man - he never would have said the things she said. Not in a million years. I know that beyond a shadow of a doubt.
As far as whatever was said to David Brown, I am sure David meant he, himself, had only know for that amount of time. If anything else was mentioned in that conversation, it must have been a misunderstanding. David Coombs does not lie for anyone.
To Prayingcolossians1:
Sorry to say I missed your post of a week ago. You certainly have it all together tonight. You are exactly right in your belief, your scripture cited, and your conclusion. Excellent thoughts and exactly right! I suggest you keep putting your entire post on this site over and over again so that people who have missed it tonight will eventually see it. Several of our brothers/sisters are doing that, and I can tell this method reaches many more people. Thank you for your determination and your contribution of truth and the Word to this cause for Christ.
Dee
This is just a question...and it's an honest one. If you don't like what's going on at Bellevue, why don't you just go somewhere else? I'm not telling anyone to go anywhere else -- I'm just saying...why? If I were unhappy, I'd simply move on to another church.
bellevuefriend61
I can tell you that you are 100% mistaken about this statement you made:
As far as whatever was said to David Brown, I am sure David meant he, himself, had only know for that amount of time. If anything else was mentioned in that conversation, it must have been a misunderstanding. David Coombs does not lie for anyone.
Let's send this statement over to David Brown via email and I am quite certain that he will want to respond to it on this blog.
I'll concede that Dottie Coombs could have taken that out of context, although for the life of me, if that's a quote, I can't imagine what the proper context for a statement like that would be.
As for David Brown, I've talked with him several times, and he said he called DC back and specifically asked him to verify how long SG had known about PW. He was told "about 1 1/2 weeks." There's no doubt on this one. David Brown says it was crystal clear.
NASS
Fed up - you do whatever it is that you think you need to do.
I will stand behind anything I have said on this blog...100%
I'd like to know if David said this before or after the announcement was made from the pulpit.
fedup,
I just sent a copy of bf61's statement to David Brown for his response. He explained what happened last night in the previous thread, so he may or may not respond again.
I'll concede that Dottie Coombs could have taken that out of context, although for the life of me, if that's a quote, I can't imagine what the proper context for a statement like that would be.
--------------------------------
I can tell you - this wasn't a quote, though she used quotation marks - which is libel. If he told her that wives are to be submissive - she would have said that he told her her ex could hit her if he wanted to. That is the way she told her stories.
bf61,
Which David?
DC made his statements to David Brown on the Friday two days before Sunday's announcement from the pulpit -- if that's what you were asking.
Nass,
Can you copy and paste david's comments on this page for the benefit of bf61?
Thanks
I'll be watching for that post. however for now I am going to bed. I'm afraid that what I have said is being taken to harshly - and I am not a harsh person. I am praying for all involved.
Here is my thought - it was all new to him, and since he had just been told, he assummed the pastor had just been told. I feel that he no idea the pastor had prior knowledge of this. There was so much chaos going on...there is no telling what happened. This is just my thought. Just because someone misunderstands a question - or whatever - doesn't mean they lied or covered up something.
bf61,
I don't know the woman personally, so I can't say. All I did was check with Jim Haywood who posted that on savingbellevue.com to see if he'd verified the story. He said he'd spoken with her personally and had her contact information so he had verified she was indeed who she claimed to be. She has to be the one responsible for her statements though.
again - these are my thoughts solely - not the idea of any parties involved...I have no idea what their take on the situation is. It's just that - since I've known this man for so long, I can't imagine him being anything other than what he's always been.
I feel sorry for DC - I mean...he just came aboard and has had so much thrown at him suddenly -- wow.
anyway goodnight.
David Brown's account of his conversation with DC:
David Brown said...
"MJM: Unless you have spoken to David Coombs or you are David Coombs, you do not know what he said. I do. You have not spoken to me either. And you have the facts wrong as to what he told me. I would say your 'investigation' is flawed. You failed to memtion that I called David back and I asked David if he was speaking in an official capacity for Dr. Gaines and he told me he was. So once again what you have 'assumed' facts that are wrong. Do you think that the 'official' spokesperson for Dr. Gaines would not have the correct information? Come on, I did not fall off a turnip truck.
"Next time contact me directly and I will tell you what he said. My name and email adddress has been out there all along. Please don't speak for me. I am very capable of doing that myself."
5:50 PM, December 28, 2006
westtnbarrister said...
"Maybejustmaybe,
"I talked with David Brown about one minute after his conversation with David Coombs. David Coombs told him they had only known for a week and a half. He was very clear about that. When David Brown called me he expressed relief because he had been under the impression the church had known about the molestation for months. He felt like a week and a half was still too long, but it was not as bad as he had feared. Of course now know they had known at least since June.
"Later that same day David Brown called David Coombs again for clarification. David C. repeated they had only known for a week and a half. He also emphasized he was officially speaking for the pastor."
7:23 PM, December 28, 2006
I will attest that this is virtually the identical conversation I've had with David Brown on at least two occasions.
NASS
Nass,
Thank you for posting that.
I think it's time for me to go to bed.
Thanks for all your hard work in keeping this blog going.
bf61 wrote:
"It's just that - since I've known this man for so long, I can't imagine him being anything other than what he's always been."
This isn't meant in any way as a comment about DC personally, but I bet a lot of people have said the same thing about PW in the past couple of weeks.
Obviously we disagree about some issues, but I thank you for your civil and respectful tone. We can ask questions and have these kinds of discussions without being rude or disagreeable.
G'night all!
NBBCOF
Thanks fedup. Good night!
E-mail me. I've got something for you.
NBBCOF
bf61 said:
I'm afraid that what I have said is being taken to harshly - and I am not a harsh person. I am praying for all involved.
****
No, BF, you have not come across as harsh at all. You seem like a very nice person. Thank you for your prayers.
Thank you for the kind and encouraging responses to my post at 12:47am. I will be praying for all of you, too. As we are praying for each other, please agree with me in prayer that we "...may be filled with the knowledge of HIS WILL in all SPIRITUAL WISDOM and UNDERSTANDING,
10 so that you (we) will walk in a manner worthy of the Lord, TO PLEASE HIM in all respects, bearing fruit in every good work and increasing in the KNOWLEDGE OF GOD;
11 strengthened with all power, according to HIS GLORIOUS MIGHT, for the attaining of all STEADFASTNESS AND PATIENCE;joyously
12 giving thanks to the Father, who has qualified us to share in the inheritance of the saints in Light."
**(Colossians 1:9-12)
Fedupatbbc--I would appreciate it if you would e-mail me. I just want to share something with you.
prayingcolossians1,I was curious on one thing on your previous testimony concerning your step-father. How was he allowed to continue to be a deacon in a Baptist church? I am of the understanding that men are not allowed to remain deacons in a Baptist church if they divorce (unless for one specific reason), remarry or if they marry a divorced woman...???
All,
Joe Jernigan is preaching both services tomorrow with some excellent music. See the Bellevue Today! I can't wait to hear a message from God's Word! FINALLY!
Forreal,
If i may speak for Collosians, I think that you are confusing HER experience with Mine. I am the one with the stepfather perpetrator and Collosians perpetratr was her birth father.
Hope that answers your question.
Colissions,
How do I email you? I don't see a link on your profile :(
I dont have one on mine, either becuase my teenager hasn't shown me how to post one yet. :)
fedup,
Iwas referring to prayingcollosians1 post 12:47 a.m. 12/30...I think she was sharing her experience... please correct me if I misunderstood...
foreal,
I stand corrected. I went back and re-read her testimony and she did, indeed mention her stepfather as the perp.
I want to comment on the statement David Coombs made to David Brown. He definitely told him the PW situation had been known for a week and a half both times they spoke that Friday. In David Coombs defense that may be what he had been told. I am sure he had not known about it since June, so he was only able to discuss the PW situation based on the information he had been provided. This brings up the problem of sending out a spokesmen who does not know the whole story. I believe this also happened with Jim Barnwell as well as the Communications Committee. I doubt all of those folks are horrible liars. I bet they honestly believe some of the answers they have been given. Remember, few of them had any firsthand knowledge of the issues they were sent to address.
I think the question we should be asking is not whether or not David Coombs was lying, but who sent him to "officially" speak for the pastor with half the story.
Folks,
I want to point out that there is a common thread between all victims of childhood sexual abuse.
Everyone of them has this in common:
Somewhere, somehow, an adult knew and did nothing to protect them. They did not speak out. They maintained their silence.
Pedofelia THRIVES in secrecy.
Secrets destroy people.
4real said this.
"I am of the understanding that men are not allowed to remain deacons in a Baptist church if they divorce (unless for one specific reason), remarry or if they marry a divorced woman...???"
I really want you folks to help me out with this. Specifically the IF THEY MARRY A DIVORCED WOMAN. I have a real problem with this in that it is my understanding that a man who marries a divorced woman should not be a deacon. In my church there have been at least three men who fit this category who have been deacons in the church. I think this is wrong. Give me your understanding of this please.
imaresistor,
I wish I could give you some insight into this, but I have never been divorced, and neither has my husband, and not being raised Baptist, I can't explain these things.
However, between my mother, my brother, and my two sisters, we can count 13 divorces. Hey, my family put the "fun" in dysfunctional!!!
Paul Williams and Steve Gaines:How they have impacted me.
I have been involved with the BBC Prayer Ministry for a number of years as a "prayer warrior". One aspect of this prayer commitment involves setting aside a specific time every week to pray for specific prayer requests given by the prayer ministry office. My time to pray is very early in the morning during my most private and special quiet time with the Lord and his Word. I call a dedicated prayer line to hear the recorded prayer requests at the beginning of my quiet time. The voice giving me these prayer requests was the voice of Paul Wms until the day after he was put on paid leave. This means that I and other prayer warriors have received our prayer instructions from the voice of an incestuous homosexual pedafile just prior to our most holy time before the Lord.
I feel that Steve Gaines allowed me personally to be violated before these prayer times for six (6) months by permitting Paul Wms to continue giving recorded prayer requests and continue as head of the BBC Prayer Ministry. I would have expected Steve Gaines as my Pastor to protect me from such a violation of trust and violation of prayer time by immediately firing Paul Wms when he found out six months ago. Dr. Gaines has a devotional book, "Morning Manna", that I used to treasure, but now it rings very hollow and fake.
Prayer is of the utmost importance and is foundational. Steve Gaines, in my view, has allowed the prayer ministry to be compromised for 6 months. He has disqualified himself to lead as Pastor of BBC and should resign immediately. Paul Wms should resign immediately. This is my personal and true experience.
fedupatbbc,
I was just reading up to your 1:00 AM post about the letters you have to type in being an IQ test. That is pretty funny. I always think I have failed the test whenever my post doesn't go through. And if you think that is bad, you should see the way it looks when yahoo asks you to type it in. They have a line drawn through the letters so you really can't see them.
Diana
Morningprayer,
My MORNING MANNA was picked up by the garbage men yesterday. That's where it belongs.
morningprayer,
Yours was a very interesting response from a prayer warrior. Thank you for your heartfelt testimony.
Diana
fedupatbbc and colossians,
I would appreciate it if you email me at westtnbarrister@yahoo.com. I have something I would like to share with both of you.
Thank you!
Amen fedupatbbc!
I have a client who has that book and I have literally had to cover it up with a newspaper when I'm at her house because it nauseates me to look at it.
Diana
INSTRUCTIONS for Adding an E-mail Address to Your Profile...
Go to the front page and click on the Blogger logo in the far upper lefthand corner. On the resulting page, click on "Edit Profile" in the upper righthand corner. On the next page, under "Privacy," make sure "Share my profile" and "Show my email address" are checked. (You do not have to supply or show your real name.) Then under "Identity," make sure the e-mail address listed is the one you want made public. If you registered using your personal e-mail address and want to use an anonymous e-mail address such as a Yahoo, Hotmail, or Gmail address, then delete it and type your "anonymous" e-mail address in the blank. Finally, scroll to the bottom of that page and click on "Save Profile."
NBBCOF
Bellevuefriend: I am reluctant to get involved anymore in this "what he said, she said stuff." I have made it very clear what David told me was in his capacity as spokesperson for Dr. Gaines. I requested a meeting with Dr. Gaines but did not get that. Instead I get someone I was not sure was even on staff when he called. That was my reason for calling him back to verify what he had just told me. I do have his cell phone number if you doubt it and I will be glad to produce my cell phone records that will show the 2 phone calls, one to me and then the latter one to him and it will show how long we spoke
The reason I called back because I had understood that this was known for about two months. That is why I was suprised to hear they only knew about it for a week and a half. I was releived and accepted what he told me until what I heard on Sunday.
Once again. I ASKED DAVID IF HE WAS SPEAKING ON BEHALF OF DR. GAINES AND AS AN OFFICIAL FROM BELLVUE. HE TOLD THAT WAS CORRECT. Now people are trying to suggest someone is lying.
Folks this is all a smoke screen. The fact is they knew about this in June. That all that is necessary to know. I do have opinions as to why this week and half thing is coming out now as an issue but it just does not matter. I do not know David Coombs personally. I am sure is a honest and Godly man. So please drop the arguments of what I was told on that Friday. Concentrate on what was said from the pulpit on Sunday. There is the real issue. It was known about it in June yet no action till now. Why the delay?
I will say once again we must not take chances with our children. I hope you have read my previous post about googling the two items I asked you to.
To Bellevuefriend why didn't you just call me? I have also made it abundantly clear if you have questions all you have to do is contact me. Trust me I have heard from many people when I suggested that the other day. I will talk to you or exchange emails with you if you still want to hide your identiy.
I would like to hear your commnets to that post where I asked folks to search those two items on google. Please go back and do your homework to see where I am coming from, then let's talk. Ok? But don't you dare suggest that either David Coombs or myself are liars. You don't want to go down that road.
Once again please in prayer for everyone concerned. A lot of innocent people have been hurt and previous vicitms have been made to relieve their nightmares again. Too many people are being hurt.
We are about to begin a New Year and I have one resolution to suggest we all adopt. Let's all committ to seing our children safe and not stop until we have truth and transparency from our religious leaders. Reagardless of church or denomination.
in HIS Hands,
David Brown
Thank you, David. I'm sorry it was necessary for you to have to explain that again.
Dear friends,
I am not a member and reside in a different part of the state. I recently became aware of your situation. My heart goes out to you and my prayers are for you and HIS church. I lift up Bellevue as a stalwart within our convention. Most of the world does not understand the autonomy of the local church and because of your prominence, the actions of your church reflect on all of us in the eyes of the world.
I am a deacon and a former deacon chair and I must share that I have gone thru similar experiences in a SBC church with an autocratic pastor who came about three years ago and who does not react well to those who disagree with him.
Worship services under his leadership became almost more than I could bare.
A few months ago I and some others finally fell on our face before God praying that HE would either change my heart or the pastor's heart. Since the heartfelt (and ongoing) prayer, I must say that things are much better. I'm not sure who changed - but there is definitely a change
I share this experience only to say that consistent, specific prayer for your pastor and your church does work. God does not always answer the way we want, but He does answer.
I know this does not address the many issues with the leadership of your church, but I must emphasize that the more you disagree, the more you must pray for that very person with whom you disagree.
God bless you and Bellevue. May you always be salt and light.
bereans wrote:
"In any event, I keep waiting for SG's vigorous defenders to wake up and say, "Hold on there! You've crossed the line! Enough is enough!" I thought the PW situation would be the last straw for most, if not all, BBC members. Boy, was I wrong."
The problem with this is that the line and the truth are moving targets.
NASS
Late last night this was posted;
BellevueFriend61 said...
This is just a question...and it's an honest one. If you don't like what's going on at Bellevue, why don't you just go somewhere else? I'm not telling anyone to go anywhere else -- I'm just saying...why? If I were unhappy, I'd simply move on to another church.
1:55 AM, December 30, 2006
Reply:
I appreciate the sincerity of your questions. My answer would be this.
It would be far easier to move on to another church. However, it would be in disobedience to where God has called me to be. There have been several others that I am personally aware of that have been called to another church.
I cannot in my finite mind understand the infinite wisdom of God. It doesn’t make sense in my mind that God would call some to stay and others to go, but I have resolved that it is not my responsibility to understand, only to obey.
I believe with all my heart that many of those that have been directed to another church have acted upon the Holy Spirits’ moving in their life. God has always worked in unusual and mysterious ways that we cannot understand.
God used John Mark to cause a division between Paul and Barnabas and send them out in different directions (which should cause pause to some concerning “covenant relationships”). God later used John Mark to minister to Paul shortly before his death. We have the benefit now of seeing the end result and the working of God thru Scripture in that situation.
So why do I stay? I stay in obedience to the direction of the Holy Spirit. I would far prefer to be somewhere that I am happy (Heaven would be great), but it is not about what makes me happy in this time. It is about what makes Him happy and leads me to be Holy before God. It is about the admonishment and edification of the church in a time of apostasy within the church.
I would just like it to be known that I haven't called anyone a liar - that is a horrible word...a dirty word in my household. My suggestion was simply that there was a misunderstanding...and not necessarily on the part of David Brown. I'm not pointing fingers, just trying to figure out facts. I will say that I know beyond a shadow of a doubt, David Coombs did not know of this incident in June.
bellevuefriend61,
I read thru each of your post very carefully this morning and sincerely appreciate your sincerity and concern. I agree that you have been extremely civil in your discourse and you are to be commended.
BellevueFriend61 said...
I cannot comment on the integrity and character of Steve Gaines - except from what I have received from his preaching...which...by the way...I'd like it to be known that I have grown much closer to my Savior through this man's preaching.
The integrity I am speaking of is that of DC. I do not like his name being thrown around as just anyone on this site...he is a Godly Man with incredible amounts of integrity.
-------------
You sound like a very nice person and it's admirable to stand up for DC.
I'm not as concerned with DC purchasing alcohol for a dinner guest at a local restaurant on Germantown Road or his comments to his sister-in-law as I am his official stand as a Bellevue spokesperson and a Bellevue lay person.
It has been said that Steve Gaines has spent his integrity and now he's spending the integrity of other men.
DC has chosen to be a part of the Communications Committee. This is where I believe he has let all of the Belleuve membership down.
The Communications Committee has printed half-truths and lies that were distributed at a tremendous cost to the Bellevue sheep.
David Coombs allowed his name to be associated with the dis-information not only printed but stated in the Communications Committee Meetings.
David Coombs is an insider and could have stopped the dis-information flow but chose to be a part of the coverup.
David Coombs now, appears to have continued in the coverup process for Steve Gaines. He stated something that wasn't true to David Brown of SNAP concerning the Paul Williams timeline.
From here on, can we believe anything that David Coombs tells us or represents to us?
I think not until he addresses all concerns. The Communications Committee disbanded as it was growing in number. The last meeting had about 300 people in attendance. More questions were left unanswered than answered. With so many unanswered questions, Harry Smith told the church that they were done because it had gone so well.
Anyone who served on this Communications Committee owes the Bellevue congregation an apology for being a part of the coverup. They need to report the truth if even if they are the only ones who will do so.
I'm still not sure why the Communications Committee was renamed from the Ad Hoc Committee. It seems to me the first name was more appropriate because the comminicatin from them deffinately added hoc.
Having lived a little closer to the 'professional' ministry than I care to think about, I would assume most readers of this blog should be aware that many of the 'upwardly mobile' pastors actually hire consultants to help them position themselves for greater prominence and success in their chosen fields. Several years ago I was on staff of a fairly prominent church (not SBC) and worked closely with a guy who was becoming involved in marriage seminars across the country. His writing skills were deplorable and his ministry skills were not necessarily impressive.
He retained the services of a consultant who specialized in creating a path to success. Part of this criteria was to start publishing. I thought that would be interesting to see! Well, in a few months his writing became very polished. And within a year he published his first book. He obviously had found a ghost writer! While I don't question his heart to serve God in as great a ministry as possible, this approach was more than foreign to my understanding of how God raises up a man / woman for ministry. No surprise given all this that today his is a very prominent name in marriage encounter seminars.
Point is that SG has all these same markings. I make no judgment, but I certainly have a responsibility to recognize that man can develop the ability to influence great numbers of people, make a lot of money, use the Word of God irresponsibly, etc.
I read an interesting article sometime ago, I think by someone from Moody, about the danger in the Church today of making merchandise of Jesus. I fear that we have let materialism become a major part of our church experience today.
May God give all of us light to determine His path.
Larry Mayall
Bellevuefriend: What in the world does David Coombs' statements to me on behalf of Dr. Gaines have to do with this? If Dr. Gaines knew all this stuff why didn't he meet me himself instead of sending David out with half truths? Now where is your arugment with that? I DID NOT MISUNDERSTAND ANYTHING!
But you quickly gloss over the fact this issue was KNOWN about for over 6 months and nothing as done until that Sunday. That is not protecting our children. And THAT IS MY ISSUE and MY ONLY ISSUE! Yes I am shouting.
I have no issues with David Coombs. I am sure that David is a man of God. He at least had the courage to speak to me on behalf of Dr. Gaines when others would not. I do admire and respect him for that. Period. Some people are beating a dead horse here.
Now will you answer me this? Do you think not taking any action for 6 months is appropriate? Why wasn't an investigation begun then? Why wait until it was all over the internet and in the media before taking action?
Don't our children deserve our best?
In HIS hands,
David Brown
S.N.A.P. coordinator for West Tennesse and Memphis area
swtt wrote:
"It seems to me the first name was more appropriate because the comminicatin from them deffinately added hoc."
Uh... would that be like horse hoc'?
NASS
SWTT,
You've got mail
westtnbarrister,
You've got mail.
FYI....
I understand the offical language that applies to anyone knowing about this cover-up and and not informing the authorities is....
Obstruction of Justice.....
This is a felony.....
Statecharter,
Anyone intimidating witnesses could have a problem too.
4545 responded to my posting with "your post is hate filled and horrible". I learned long time ago that to be hate filled is to destoy one's own life. I also learned it was counter productive in any situation to belittle others that disagree with one's personal viewpoint. To those of you who post and provide very relevant portions of the Word and how they apply to this current situation, I thank you.
I found this comment on another blog. I am so happy all pastors have not lost their moral compass.
"For those of you who may not know, there is a huge 'scandalabra' at Bellevue Baptist Church in Memphis. This is the former church of Dr. Adrian Rogers who recently passed away. If you have been around Southern Baptist circles, you have heard his name. He was loved by many.
Bellevue has a membership of about 30,000. I am sure that many do not attend each week but like other megas, this is the figure that is tossed around in the media.
In any event, we have a very large church who called Dr. Steve Gaines over a year ago, as pastor, to fill the very large shoes of Dr. Rogers. As most new leaders mistakenly do, Dr. Gaines came in and made some sweeping changes. Some long time well loved staff were let go and new ones hired at higher salaries. New methods, programs and events were introduced. So, there were a few who were not happy campers and rightly so.
Just briefly, I want to point out that this is a mistake many new leaders make. They lead with their egos and not their common sense. Unless the organization is drowning in red ink and drastic changes must be made at once, it is best to spend the first year getting to know the place and building trust before making ANY drastic changes such as firing long time staff. Since this is a ‘church’ that advice is even more important. After all, Jesus is the head of the church and all drastic changes must be prayerfully considered in light of His Word.
(The picture to the left is Dr. Rogers)
Ok, flash forward to the recent scandal. Unless you have been living in a cave and have not heard, Dr. Gaines found out 6 months prior to the public announcement that the Minister of Prayer, Paul Williams a staff member of Bellevue for 34 years, had sodomized his own son 17 years ago. (Take a deep breath before we plod on because you are going to get even angrier.)
Let me repeat: Paul Williams worked at Bellevue for 34 years. Evidently, the abuse occurred 17 years ago. We do not know if the abuse occurred more than once. We do not know if it happened again recently. We do not know if there are others who have been abused. We do not know who knew this outside the family. We don’t know much about that part at all.
Here is what we know:
One of Paul Williams' jobs at Bellevue was to interview people who signed up to work with children. He asked them questions about abuse. Background checks were done on potential candidates. If they admitted to being abused, he asked for details.
Paul Williams was going through professional counseling so SOMEONE knew about this. We do not know if the counseling started recently or years ago. You know, the counselor is liable here too. Unreported felony!
Paul Williams claims that Dr. Rogers did not know about this.
Since Paul Williams, as an ELDER (Minister of Prayer), did not publicly confess this CRIME/ SIN 17 years ago, he is unrepentant. This is a public sin that affected the entire church and should have been confessed publicly.
Why publicly? Because he is an ELDER and according to Titus, Timothy and parts of James there are certain standards for someone in his position. Obviously, a public confession would have meant he would have to resign and be out of the ministry forever. There are consequences to sin...even forgiven sin.
So he was ‘ministering’ to the congregation all the while an unrepentant pedophile.
Enter Dr. Gaines, the new pastor. According to his own words, he found out about the abuse 6 months before it became public. I still do not understand what prompted this to finally become public. There have been vague references to the fact that he was told the abuse did not really stop.
Dr. Gaines told the congregation (and the media) that he did not tell anyone because the sin had been confessed and Paul Williams was in counseling. He claims he did not want to put their family through anymore humiliation.
When it became public (how and why?), Dr. Gaines put Paul Williams on administrative leave which I assume is paid leave. (If so, I am furious that tithers are paying a pedophile.) The church leaders are ‘investigating’ and it looks as if the government is also investigating.
Dr Gaines refers to this father (who is also a minister) sodomizing his own son as a ‘moral failure’. (Has Dr. Gaines forgotten what God did to Sodom and Gomorrah over this sin?) I think it is more of a felony, myself. Nothing less than a prison sentence is warranted. Preferably, Sing Sing.
( Dr. Gaines)
Now, there are blogs and websites dedicated to this entire scandal. Why? Because, as you can see by each point above, a lot of information is missing. The blogs serve as a place people can post what they know or ask questions. It also serves as an unofficial church business meeting because the leaders refuse to have a vote on whether Gaines should step down as pastor for HIS ‘moral failure’ (my words) in harboring a pedophile. The leadership is also not forthcoming on many missing points of information. Evidently, they do not think it is anyone’s business but their own as the church 'leaders'.
Just to give you a sampling of how badly this is being handled check out this statement from the personnel committee. Here is a line from this statement that blows me away in light of the fact this 'minister' sodomized his own son:
"Paul will continue to be supported through outside Christian counseling and the support of our Biblical Guidance Ministry. However, he will have no church responsibilities and will not be on campus during this review process."
Wow, he can't be on campus during the review period! What punishment for a minister sodomizing his own son! What is to review? He admits he did it! He had to because someone outed him! How nice we are to be to a 17 year, unrepentent, minister of prayer...who sodomizes his own son....a pedophile! (Ok, went to take a chill pill)
So the church has split into the ‘We love Gaines’ and the “Gaines must go’ camps. (This whole scandalabra would make a great case study for what not to do as a pastor.)
(Picture of the unrepentent pedophile who for 17 years posed as a minister of prayer: Paul Williams)
The blogs are serving a much needed role -- shining light into a vague and dark place. The blogs are getting information out about quite a few strange incidents, too. One example: Pastor Gaines and a few other leaders ignored a no trespassing sign and climbed the fence of a gated community in order to confront one of their detractors. They did not even call him first to tell him they were coming over. Go here to read this man's account of this bizarre incident propagated by grown Christian men. Make that: Pastors, Deacons and leaders in the Body of Christ.
The blogs serve as the only place where information can be shared. It has become the virtual church community. Many comments are speculations which their detractors call rumors and gossip. But what else can they do when their leaders are not forthcoming and keep saying, ‘Let us handle it’ but then don't?
The leaders so far have done a very poor job and have made bad decisions that may even be prosecutable. (Is that a word?) Besides, they are hiding information as you can see by the mac-truck size holes where important information is missing in this scandal. Until those holes are filled with truth...there will be more speculating.
Right now, the best thing for everyone is total open communication about everything that happened since this information came to light.. even if it was 17 years ago. People need to start talking truth...fast. That is how real leaders handle a scandal. Since this is the Body of Christ, nothing is to be hidden. We are all equals in the Body. The leaders are ‘servants’. Jesus Christ is the Head of the Church. (Whatever happened to the Priesthood of the Believers as all good Baptists believe?)
I can hear the groans now... 'What about the victim'? 'Won’t discussing it publicly make it harder for him'?
The answer is yes and no. The victim has already been victimized several times by others besides his own father because they protected his abusing dad. This includes the mother, the counselor and anyone else who knew. Think about this: If the son talked, dad is out of a job. More victimizing of the victim.
So what message did 'protect the abuser' send this poor kid who is now a young man? This message: Keep your mouth shut.
The abuse is then compounded because the Body of Christ protected the abuser... again! Who can this young man ever trust if he cannot trust his own Christian leaders? The blogs show this young man that there are people out there that are outraged about what happened to him.
Count me in as having righteous anger. I am livid. Praying but... still...livid!
And, there are other victims…victims of lies, of course, but victims nonetheless: The church members who trusted their ‘minister of prayer’. The people who were interviewed by him so they could work with children at the church. His own staff. The Body of Christ…everywhere. That's right, Mr. Williams, your unconfessed sin, as a minister/pedophile for 17 years, affects all of us in the Body of Christ.
I am still reeling from knowing that a pedophile walked the halls of that church as a staff member… for what may be 34 years! We do not know…it could be 17 years he was there as a pedophile/minister. Does it matter? Would it be less horrible if it were 30 days? In his heart, he is a pedophile. In his actions, he is a pedophile. If you know anything about pedophiles, you will know this does not just go away…especially since it was not repented of publicly for accountability.
Pastor Gaines and the other leaders have actually enabled Paul Williams’ sin. Do they not care about Paul Williams’ eternal life? St. Paul, in Corinthians, tells us to kick the sexually immoral person out so they ‘can be saved’. By doing this, the sinner has to depend on God. Yet, Paul Williams could ‘pose’ as a minister of prayer for 17 years doing his dirty deed known only to a few. Was this appropriate to the sheep he lead? Is it Biblical? NO!
But there is irony: Because they enabled sin, now the whole world knows. Pastor Gaines looks like a pastor who learned nothing of scripture in seminary but is driven by ego instead. Perhaps he has been reading too many GCM books. Wait! He wrote one!
The other leaders look like men who are protecting their power. None of them look like Christians. For crying out loud, If church leaders do not protect children, who will? The secular pagan authorities are looking pretty good right now, don't you think?
I thank God for blogs. I know many hate them and think they are rumor mills but I disagree. These ‘hirelings’ (see John) must be outed and held accountable by real Bereans in the church.
Think about this: People who abuse authority hate blogs. So, don’t abuse authority. Don't sodomize your child. Don't hide it... especially if you are the pastor. Tell the whole truth no matter how ugly it is. Tell it no matter how badly it may reflect on you. Tell the truth even if it means you may lose your job, your home or your income. Why? Because your eternal life depends on it:
Revelations 21
5And he who was seated on the throne said, "Behold, I am making all things new." Also he said, "Write this down, for these words are trustworthy and true." 6And he said to me, "It is done! I am the Alpha and the Omega, the beginning and the end. To the thirsty I will give from the spring of the water of life without payment. 7The one who conquers will have this heritage, and I will be his God and he will be my son. 8But as for the cowardly, the faithless, the detestable, as for murderers, the sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars, their portion will be in the lake that burns with fire and sulfur, which is the second death."
habukuk
WOW!! That's just all i can say!!!
Thanks for posting that!!!
Ok, folks
I am not so good on the computer. My kids aren't home. So somehow, in trying to get my profile to show up,I posted that i am 1951 years old. I do not know how that happened, and I was not even born in 1951. I typed in my correct date of birth, and mr. google and his friends decided i was 1,951 years old. Must be new math.
ok, I could use a nip and a tuck here and there perhaps, but i am not THAT old!!!
habukuk
That pretty much covers it! Interesting how someone who doesn't even go to Bellevue (at least it appears that way) can see things so clearly!!!
A comment from influential blogging pastor Wade Burleson:
Wade Burleson said...
Volfan007,
You may be right,
However, pedophilia is a crime.
I served on a police task force in the state of Oklahoma focusing in on sex crimes. The statistics are alarming. The only way to help a pedophile, like a drunk, is to ban the man from children (or in the case of the drunk, alcohol).
I am of the opinion that a child abuser who is serving as pastor disqualifies himself, permanently, from pastoral ministry, no matter the repentance, no matter the counseling, no matter the forgiveness.
Pedophilia should have consequences for the perpetrator until death (never alone with children, tight accountability, etc . . . ) even though he may be forgiven of his sin by God's people.
I realize that false allegations are often made, but it seems that the pastor in question has made some sort of confession.
If Dr. Gaines had information, he is on treacherous ground not reporting it.
In other words, I would not consider this nonreporting by Dr. Gaines a 'small' thing.
His blog:
http://kerussocharis.blogspot.com/2006/12/call-to-prayer-for-young-girl-her.html
From Wade's blog:
irreverend fox said...
Wade,
you are a pastor of a big church so maybe you can help us/me understand this.
why is that there are THOUSANDS of wonder men of God pastoring churches that are not big...single staff types...that would have enough common sense to know how to deal with this situation in the right way...
and yet it seems like the pastors of big churches act like fools? I'm serious and I'm not trying to be sarcastic.
what is it about a large congregations and fools/ closet homosexuals/ adulterers... am I out of line or is my observation that the larger the congregation the more suspect the pastor is?
why is pastor Charles Whitlock or Roger Larison or Martin Jones not house hold names? these men have a deep love Christ, have absolute integrity, humility and have a true, genuine, spirit filled pastoral heart for people? why are these men not mega church pastors and yet so many who are have no such qualities?
once again I'm just bewildered at the american evangelical church...
Wednesday, December 20, 2006
From Wade's blog:
JohnJaxtheBaptist said...
Irreverand fox: Do the names Homer Lindsey, Homer Lindsey, Jr.; Jerry Vines (over 60 years of leadership at FBC Jax without any hint of scandal); Jerry Falwell, Criswell, Adrian Rogers, etc. ring any bells? They seemed to have pretty good sized churches. Maybe it is not the problem of mega churches. Those were built over many decades by men of conviction and integrity. Maybe the problem lies with the younger men, who did not do anything to build those places up over many decades who just got the "gig" due to their talents as "pulpiteers" and their ambition to pastor a mega church, that is the root of the problem.
Wednesday, December 20, 2006
From Wade's blog:
Bob Cleveland said...
Wade:
The events speak for themselves, but I think it's evidence that the end times are upon us. If so, folks in the ministry and maybe even the laity had best get the act cleaned up. It looks like God may be cleaning up the bride for the marriage ceremony.
While previewing this, I noted JohnJax's comment about "the majority of those who post on your blog could make great arguments that the "parameters" need to be broadened to include repentant child abusers..". I'll let you comment on its appropriateness, but I object on my own behalf to any inference of that, at all.
I agree with Wade's statement, only moreso.
Wednesday, December 20, 2006
From Wade's blog:
John Fariss said...
A lot of those who have responded to this article want to make it broader than it is, don't they? Some want to make it about megachurches, about Adrian Rogers, about Steve Gaine's pastorate, about those called to established megachurches, about Richard Land, even about the CBF! Pardon me folks, but your (Freudian) slip is showing. Consider whether your comments reveal more about where your focus is than what is going on at Bellevue.
Both as a police detective and as a pastor, I have had some dealings with sexual predators. And I discovered two things: one, they often do not understand their own actions, or like their actions, and may feel terrible shame, guilt, or even remorse over it; and two, none of that stops them from repeating it--at least none that I have been familiar with. It is not just a bad habbit one can break by will power or even through faith. Opportunities also must be limited, one way or another, as the act is often not about sex, but rather about control--which is why the gender, age, and physical attributes of the victim are irrelevant.
I appreciate the focus Wade has: let us unite in prayer for those affected by it.
Wednesday, December 20, 2006
From Wade's blog:
Alycelee said...
I've been observing comments here as well as the other female staff members at my office.
I have to tell you we are shocked at some of the comments.
We published a series of stories about abuse among Christians. According to the Christianity Today poll of 1808 women, 18% were sexually abused. According to several other reports, 1 in 4 women in the church are abused in some manner.
The Center for the Prevention of Sexual and Domestic Violence provides guidelines for pastors and staff who ministers to women who have been abused: UNDER THIS LIST WAS DONT DO NOTHING,
This sounds like what has been done-NOTHING
VOLFAN-the reason they made a big deal is because it is a BIG DEAL. It's a reallly big deal. This isn't about Steve Gaines, it isn't about making him look bad, its about a crime.
I'm amazed that your prayers go out to the church, this fine pastor and I hear nothing for this young lady? That is what is really sad!
Wednesday, December 20, 2006
CB Scott said...
ALL,
I agree with Wade Burleson completely word for word in this matter as he answered Volfan.
I guess it is because he is of a similar background as I that he sees the "line" so clearly between pastoral ministry and obeying the law of the land.
Pastors and seninary officials alike had bettwer learn that not to report at once this crime is against the law regardless of their rational for not doing so.
We are mandated to obey the law of the land in both the O.T. and
N.T.
There is no valid excuse in this situation for disobedience. Not even the plea of ignorance will stand.
cb
Wednesday, December 20, 2006
From Wade's blog:
Roger Simpson said...
Gmay:
I agree that bringing up this issue does not or should not "help" any "facet" in the SBC. As you say, it does not cut one way or the other relative to "Moderate" vs. "Conservative" or "Mega Church" vs. "Smaller Congregations". That being said, it does not logically follow that people should get a free pass from having to face the consequences of actions. Sometimes it takes exposing things to the light of day before people will take action.
I think anyone looking at the various "situations" in recent history with leaders in the "church" in the USA will admit that more often than not there was no contrition or acknowledgement until external circumstances finally blew the cover.
I just don't see how anyone can look the other way when sexual abuse is involved. I just don't see how one can just "let this stuff ride". The Catholic Church is seeing the ramifications of what happens (a) when their has been abuse, and (b) when many who should have taken action to stop and/or expose it just "looked the other way".
If BLOGGING is in any way instrumental in stopping or exposing sexual abuse in the church then this should be encouraged not discouraged.
Roger Simpson
Oklahoma City OK
Wednesday, December 20, 2006
notaclapper- You are very deceived if you think the actions you posted is what God would want you or anyone else to do. Your post was all about self and self serving. Just like alot of others on here.
Bob Cleveland said...
In the insurance business, there's an old saying: "Once a thief, always a thief". That refers to the fact that "Employee Dishonesty" Insurance excludes anyone who has ever stolen from an employer and either caused a claim, or been convicted. And that follows them the rest of their life.
There can be external causes which drive someone to the desperation of stealing, to feed their family, provide life-saving medical treatment for a loved one, etc. But no such external causes are behind molestation of a child. Or an adult, for that matter.
Said that to say: how in the world can a church, any organization naming the name of Jesus, have anything but ZERO TOLERANCE for that? EVER? It has nothing to do with forgiveness. God forgives and we must, too. But we must not confuse forgiveness with the idea that sin does not have consequences that will not ever disappear, this side of heaven. One of those ought to be, and to have been, that the perpetrator must be removed from ministry, period.
Of course we need to pray for the church and for the family. And we must not do so through gritted teeth, from our lofty positions of righteousness, but rather as sinners whose offenses were as disgusting to God as anyone's.
Also: does anyone think that "the problem" is limited to the Catholic Church? And is there anyone who hasn't had "those thoughts" about the Catholic Church and its (a) covering up the whole matter, or (b) refusing to recognize and deal with it?
CB's right. This needs attention from the SBC, at the convention. As events have indicated, it's been needed for years, if not decades.
Thursday, December 21, 2006
John Fariss said...
volfan007,
Can the power of God break the power of sin? Of course. Me, you, all of us could give volumes of examples. But then we would have to get into the "hows" of that happening, as well as the motivation of the perpetrator. I suppose it is possible for a person to go to God in deep anguish, contrition, and repentance, confess such a sin, and have God supernaturally take away the desire to repeat as well as forgiving the act itself.
Possible. Theoritically. But I have never seen it happen that way with a pedophile.
I suppose a person may commit such an act once and once only (although I say this only as a possibility). I have seen a person "redirect" such sick desires and attribute it to God--and usually those have been redirected at targets less public but still perverted (i.e., porn) or violence, even in a socially acceptable form (contact sports, boxing, etc.). The problem is that those folks are a time bomb ticking away. Do you think Satan is going to quit tempting that person? I don't; my experience is that he keeps needling me where I am weakest. Keep in mind: assuming it happened, we do not know if the motive was sex directed to a highly (in fact criminally) inappropriate target because of some perversion, or something else. Either speaks of deep-seated problems, but very different problems. Sex crimes such as this are often not primarily about sex, but about control. You have heard, I'm sure, people use a vulgar expression, "F___ you!" That is an "everyday" example of control using an expression of sex as a vehicle. What it really says is, "I am so powerful and so in control of you that I can have my way with you any way I choose!" Most people go no further with it than this verbal expression, but there are a few. . . .
It is for those persons that the age, gender, and physical attributes of the victim are irrelevant, because their act is about control, albeit expressed in a sexual way. They also may exert control in other ways--few if any of which are healthy.
And finally we get to the "hows" of God taking the desire for such acts away. Again, we can talk all day about possibilities, but the facts and statistics are that child molestors rarely (if ever) cease their activities without significant accountability. God can act anyway He chooses, but He rarely chooses to act in a vacuum. He most often acts through His servants--whether those are counselors, pastors, psychiatrists, chemicals, or prison guards. Removing targets, or at least making targets more inconvenient, less accessable, goes far in reducing pedophilia. Intervention is the key, and is vital. I am in prayer for the church and all involved.
Thursday, December 21, 2006
I read something on a blog a couple of days ago that suggested that the rape of PW's son was probly just a one time " slip up" and they doubted that he had ever done it again.
Can you believe that? A " slip up"????
Another thought about the ' slip up' comment.
DO the throngs of admirers who are heaping such adulation on SG...is this what they think?
Do they think it is much ado about nothing?
Amazing.
notaclapper (or a nut either for that matter),
It seems that "4545" is quite concerned that the open displays of support be brought to a screeching halt. I would suggest the right side of the sanctuary close to the cameras would be an appropriate spot. Although, they don't broadcast live it would present some proplems in broadcasting what might appear to be a united standing "O".
Of course, I suppose that "4545" has a point in assuming that it might be disruptive for some to actually come to church to worship God and not man. NOT!!!
Why would it bother anyone that a "few" people chose not to behave unseemingly.
I am heartbroken over a comment a deacon made this week concerning the state of Bellevue.
His comment was " I think things are ok now after seeing the church filled with folks who gave Steve a standing ovation on Chistmas Eve."
With the lack of integrity not only behind the pulpit but within the ranks of our church leadership, it appears that right is based on whether you support Steve Gaines now.
This kind of thinking permiates our church now. Throw out the Bible. Right is now judged on whether you are a follower of Steve Gaines, not what is lined up with scripture.
Does the Bible condone lying, being a lover of money, pride, using the pulpit as a bully pulpit, trespassing, harboring a pedophile, lying, running good ministers off from the church, intimidation, keeping church business a secret, lying, condoning the purchase of alcohol by some but slamming others for it, buying people off with supporting certain ministries, lying, cheating people on Bible tours, operating a church in secrecy, not believing the masses need to know, wanting more and more money, lying, and dividing longtime friends and family members?
What is next? How are we going to heal with this attitude?
4545
I am supposing that the intent of "notaclapper" is to be heard. The leadership has yet to have a forum for the membership to be heard. Descriptions of the church services convey the idea that the entire membership is in support and giving the standing ovations.
Does it not make sense that, in the leadership's zeal to silence the opposition, that opposition has become more desperate to be heard?
What I think is self serving is following along the road of least resistance. Support the pastor just because he is the pastor and the world is a beautiful place...
Now, when the band program raised their fees, I heard an outcry from some of the SG supporters because this affects them personally. I paid the higher fee and wasn't happy about it but I hardly see that as a major problem to raise a fuss over.
How Is this selfish to want leadership deserving of our trust?
From prolifeblogs.com:
Dr. D. James Kennedy Hospitalized
D. James Kennedy, author, theologian, broadcaster, biblical scholar, pastor of the 10,000-member "Coral Ridge Presbyterian Church" in Fort Lauderdale, Fla., and founder of the highly influential Coral Ridge Ministries, suffered a major heart attack last night and is in grave condition, ministry officials tell WorldNetDaily.
Since 1973, Dr. Kennedy has been a leading pro-life voice, speaking out on behalf of the unborn and in opposition to the atrocity of abortion. The theology that led him to develop Evangelism Explosion (can you answer these questions?) also enabled Kennedy to speak confidently about the intrinsic value of each human being. Recently he wrote:
Christ honored women and did more to exalt women than anyone in history. We must also seek to protect them from sexual exploitation, including abortion. Christ valued children and tenderly blessed them. We, too, must love them into the world, because all life is created in the image of God.
Rev. Rick Philips, provides an update on the Reformation21Blog:
I want to thank everyone who is praying for Dr. D. James Kennedy. His condition is improved, though very serious. I spent a good deal of time with him today, praying and reading Scripture. He recognized me and was clearly responsive, although his condition remains very serious. Please pray for continued improvement and a full restoration to health. I was able to assure him of the prayers of many Christians and he was able smile in response.
It is my sincere hope that our readers will pray for Dr. Kennedy and his family in this time of need.
Habbukuk: Wow, you put my entire blog post in comments! Please feel free to comment on this at my blog as I want to be sure I have all the information straight as we know it. And to add what has been left out. http://coffeetradernews.blogspot.com/
Or, you can click on my name and get to the blog profile and click on the blog name.
One thing that really concerns me is the preaching against blogs from the pulpit. We are hearing this from Saddleback and other GCM churches. Truth is getting out and people do not like it. They have forgotten that pastors/elders are servants.
Is blogging a perfect venue? No. There will always be problems with it but still, it is a way to shine light on sin that is being purposely hidden.
There are bloggers in both the GCM and reformed community that are bringing many things to light. I did go and listen to Mahar's sermon and what he said about false teachers is right on. One area where bloggers are really making an impact is publishing the very high salaries of many pastors or 'ministry leaders of non profits'. It is quite shocking that ministry has become a path to wealth. One reason why pastors work so hard with image, etc.
You can NEVER go wrong with scripture in context. It is amazing, isn't it, that so many can see the sin, lying and deception as plain as day where others see shadows and make excuses. Why? They have been taught that all judging is wrong. They have been taught to follow leaders blindly.
If you have read my blog at all, you know that I am a refugee from the GCM movement. I worked in it. I am sooooo guilty of perpetuating a lie. My prayer is that many will be warned and will open their Bibles and read it ALL in context as I finally did to know the character and truth of our Savior. HE is not what has been presented in so many churches today.
One last thing: I am NOT a guy even though I have a guy's name. I am named after a guy, though...my Dad, who thought it was a sissy name.
God Bless you all who stand for truth.
(Praying Corinthians: I love you and thank you for your testimony. I am grieved you were treated so harshly and blamed for crimes committed against you. Your testimony should convict everyone here of the cruelty of paying this man now and harboring him for 6 months. Your quoting of all the scripture in I Corin is exactly what is NOT happening at Bellevue. Why do our pastors ignore such plain scripture?)
Just another friendly reminder- I do not believe the term "moral failure" was meant to downplay how serious this is.
SG was speaking to a large congregation of people, including CHILDREN. I think it was a fairly appropriate term given the circumstances.
I know most of you have moved on from that, but I have just heard a few more references to it lately so I thought I might point that out again.
my 2 cents on the Blogging- I don't think blogging in and of itself is so much of an issue- I think the anonymity is the problem (I am casting stones at myself as well don't get me wrong.) Think how different this would be if we all had to sit down face to face and talk about this. I am betting a lot less people would care if they actually had to show up somewhere and the conversation would be much more respectful and understanding.
There is no accountability in blogging unless you are required to put your real name and that is pretty hard to verify.
I think that is where the dangers lie. Not so much in the act itself, but in what it can lead to.
For all we know,anyone here could be someone who truly hates Bellevue and is fueling this for his own purposes. And I personally know plenty of people out there that have an active hate for Bellevue and would be thrilled at the prospect of bringing it down or getting people to leave.
Satan can work his way in to things like this so easily. That is the scary dangerous thing.
I am wondering if there is anyone here that would defend SG in his decision to keep PW on the payroll after SG was made aware of the fact that PW is a pedofile.
.
Are any of you SG supporters happy knowing that your 'undesignated' tithe is paying the salary of a pedofile.
Do you feel that this was a wise decision on SG's part?
I'd really like to know what you are telling yourself about this to make it ' ok', and allows you to fervently support him with your applause, your standing ovations, and your wallet.
Thanks.
bepatient,
I hear what you're saying, but I wouldn't worry too much about anonymity here - no one on this blog is anonymous to the Lord, and He's who matters. How's that for accountability?
And as far as the theory about the blog being fueled by a "hater" - it's just a shame that there seems to be so much material (i.e. evidence) being provided by the leadership, and that is what is adding fuel to the fire. JMO
socwork said:
"no one on this blog is anonymous to the Lord, and He's who matters. How's that for accountability?"
We are all accountable to God, but it does say in the Bible that we are accountable to each other as well.
SG is accountable to God, but most everyone here agrees that he is to be accountable to us as well... you can't have it both ways.
Like I said, my real name isn't on here either so I am not trying to attack, just more or less thinking out loud.
One other thing- I do not wish to specifically imply that someone here is trying to make things worse only that is a possibility and that there is some danger there. I was referring to the general idea that several pastors/preachers (not just SG) have mentioned the dangers of it.
I just caught up...as much as I can stand to ...I have not been on the blog since before Christmas. I relate and affirm the comments from fedupatbbc and praying. You have said what I want to scream but still some want to deflect or pluck out a scripture to defend (as SG did when he so pitifully told the church he would like to remain the pastor )or maybe still think they are "saving Bellevue" by putting their heads in the sand.....I don't know or understand their hearts and I have tried from the beginning to just do what I believed God was leading me to do. I chose not to get involved in all the accusations prior to the PW thing. I actually thought the jumping of the fence had to be gossip... here is what I have to say and I apologize for the long lead in. I also do not believe in a one time or "reformed" abuser and PW is and has been a "preditor" while a minister at Bellevue. I made the mistake of asking him a Biblical question several years ago. He responded not with the wisdom I later got from a Charles Stanley sermon concerning that scripture...but with repulsive,sick, sexual questions...I can remember 2 of the 3 but the 3rd one paralized me(fedupatbbc and praying will understand when I say that the "wolf smells his prey")...the point I want to make without wearing you out with the details is that this has not just happened to me at Bellevue. I have heard from at least 5 others since I said this on the Mike Fleming show the same day Mrs. Rogers called in. How scary that this man with a perverted heart was in a position to "screen" people that told the truth on their application to teach SS at Bellevue. Some that I have talked to were asked the same deviant questions he asked me. So whether PW was answering a question about scripture or supposedly keeping the children of Bellevue safe from willing hearts that had been victimized as children, it seems very clear PW had his own perverted agenda that was not about protecting.This man has been preying on the wounded or helpless long since his confessed crime of 17 years ago. But for some PW and SG are the ones that should be protected...or Bellevue???? My precious daughter reminds me often that people who have not suffered can be blind or insensitive to things that seem so black and white to those of us who have lived thru the devastation of sexual abuse...especially from those in positions of trust and leadership. fedupatbbc,you won't give up...maybe you won't go to Bellevue again until God purges and cleanses what and who needs to be...but those of us in this nameless club(that we didn't choose to join) won't give up. We will continue to seek the truth,we will fight with all we have to keep our focus on THE face that is always trustworthy,God will continue to heal and strengthen us, and hopefully He will use us to encourage and protect those who cannot protect themselves. Even if SG and PW are not held accountable by Bellevue members...they will be held accountable. I pray for healing for all involved .
Had I gotten to Habbukuk's 12 o'clock blog...I probably would not left my earlier comment.....you said it all.Thank you.
Gmommylv
Oh my goodness, thank you for your kind words, but there are so many others on here who have suffered as much, if not more, than I have.
I shared only in an attempt to get others to understand what it feels like. Many have responded with heart felt kindness. Many have responded with their own abuse stories. If only those who applaud SG could understand the hurt and frustration it heaps upon us as the thunderous applause shouts " so what"...It does not validate the hurt and betrayal we have already experienced at the hands of a sexual pervert.
I would pray that God would be glorified thru the healing that has taken place in my own heart.
If he can bring you TO it, he can bring you THRU it.
Aside from the abuse, God has so richly blessed my life with my two chidren and my sweet husband of almost 25 years. When we learned that we would be unable to conceive ( a product of the sexual abuse) I fell on my face before the Lord and pleaded with him for a child of my own to love. I did not care how he chose to put that child in my arms, either thru adoption or birth, but I just wanted children to love and to be loved back.
God heard my prayers and he did put two of the most beautiful children he EVER created in my arms. He did not abandon me. He has always been faithful to me, even when I have not been faithful to him.
Our daughter is now a sr. in college, will graduate with a BSN in Nursing in Dec. of 07 and we have a son who is 15 and is a terrific teenager, who is almost an Eagle Scout.
All this to say, " When I find he's all i have, I find he's all I need."
Ezekiel:
Thank you for your post of Ezekiel 9:1-11 this morning. This was an excellent and pertinent scripture for our present-day situation. I hope that everyone will not skim by your post. It is a shame we often do take His wonderful word for granted. The Lord was speaking to us through you and His word on this lesson. Keep on relaying His message to us. Perhaps, we will take better notice from this day on.
Kindly,
Dee
bepatient,
I didn't mean to indicate that accountability doesn't matter - I'm sorry if that's what it sounded like. i meant my comments in the context of the blog. My point was that even if our identities our hidden on this blog, they are not hidden to the Lord. Hope that helps.
Ema said...
Heaven help us! I just went to Bellevue.org to view the Bellevue Today for 12/31, and in looking through it came across something stunning!
In the Career and Singles Ministry Announcements, the following is printed:
"New Year's Eve Party - Singles in their 20's and 30's are invited to the "Black and White Hollywood Night" at Quetzal at 8:00 p.m. tonight. Cost is $10.00."
Did you think you would ever see a Bellevue function advertised as "Hollywood Night"?
All we need is Bill Clinton as guest speaker!
12:26 AM, December 30, 2006
They have been e-mailing me about that party tomorrow night. I e-mailed them back saying I want nothing to do with Bellevue until Gaines resigns. Needless to say, I haven't gotten response.
Larry Mayall:
Your post of 11:09 PM was very informative. I just wanted to say that I first got a glimpse of the "business side of Bellevue" a few years ago when I was working with Community Missions. More than just a few "regular" Bellevuers like me were working at the new Impact Ministry site trying to get it ready to open. We were going through donated clothing and household items, trying to guess sizes, hang them on the right racks, and just generally trying to put things in order. A group of Bellevue's staff ministers--about 6-8 or them--came walking in there one day on what looked like a sightseeing tour. Almost everyone who is a BBC member would recognize their names. Two out of the whole bunch did not act like snobs. The rest of them were not friendly and in fact looked at us as though we were the scum of the earth. It still irks me when I see or hear any kind of godly mention of the main one in particular after seeing firsthand how he and most of the others conducted themselves. It was pitiful! One of the "good guys" was Randy Redd who is now on the "casualty list" of Bellevue. That is why I mention him by name.
I will have story two posted here shortly. Some may think this is trivia. It certainly doesn't pertain at all to Steve Gaines since it was way before he came to BBC. The "business" of the church today is a shocking thing to see, though. I understand exactly what you are talking about.
Dee
Habakkuk:
Wonderful, pertinent 12:01 PM post! Keep it up!
Everybody:
Don't be scared away from any of these posts because they appear to be "long". They are a true blessing and will help you get through these difficult times.
Dee
swtt – great post at 2:12pm today.
I agree 100%! I believe that we are in sync with God’s Word by asking questions when something does not seem to be in line with the Scriptures.
-------
Many of us have been asking our leadership for a business meeting for many, many months. The requests have continued to fall on deaf ears – or on covered ears not wanting to have the truths exposed to the bulk of the membership.
Thus, the trust factor came into play many months ago. Trust is earned over a period of time. Conversely, the gap between trust and distrust widens or decreases over a period of time, based upon the behavior. Today, the gap is wide – and it is sadly growing wider by the week.
I am aware that a certain Sunday School teacher recently asked why “everybody was so mad at Steve Gaines.” I personally know this SS teacher; he is a Godly man, and he is also a current deacon. He has continued to defend our Pastor by saying that “this many Godly men just can’t be wrong.” He is referencing many of our lay-leaders and some staff members who have already been mentioned throughout other posts. These leaders are the ones who have been defending every action of the Pastor. Some of them were on the pulpit search committee, and they served on the ad hoc Communications Committee. From the very beginning (and even up to now), this SS teacher / deacon refused to go meet with his Deacon brothers to ask questions and conduct his own research. I will note that some Deacons have been asking questions and researching the truth. Unfortunately, many of our deacons are just like this one who never went to ask questions. They adopted and embraced the philosophy that they needed to “support” our Pastor, regardless of the situation. They decided to “go with the flow” (and to swallow and follow).
I believe this mentality has taken on an entire life of its own. The standing ovations, the Communications Committee meetings, the sub-committee meetings, the speed to defend Steve Gaines AFTER Paul Williams had already confessed, and the ongoing blind-following is speaking volumes regarding some of our current leaders. Sadly, many members follow along. They feel too uncomfortable to remain seated when those on either side of them jump up, clap, and whoop and holler as if it we were at a sporting event. My wife and I no longer stand and clap. Actually, it is quite a pathetic scene, and rather embarrassing for our church, to see these standing ovations.
In my opinion, all of the other incidents, personnel issues, half-truths, whole-lies, and situations that have occurred over the last 15 months pale in comparison to the fact that we have a confessed pedophile on staff at BBC, and our Pastor protected him for 6 months.
PW will be held responsible for his actions.
Steve Gaines should be held responsible for his own actions – by maintaining the secrecy and not reporting PW as a child molester. Is our Pastor hiding anything else? Why did our Pastor not remove this pedophile from staff, rebuke him, and report it to the proper law enforcement agencies back in June? There is no good answer – at least not one with any credibility or integrity to it.
I am a husband and a dad. The mere thought of any child having to endure the filth of what Paul Williams subjected his very own son to is sickening. My family and I do not know PW’s son, but we have prayed for the son (and his family) since hearing of these despicable actions. In the days to come, we may find out if there were additional victims. We already know of several women who had to endure the psychological abuse by PW by being subjected to his vile questioning as he “counseled” them.
If just half of the energy were to be put into actually spreading the gospel as has been put into the efforts by our leaders to maintain power, control, and secrecy AND by us who have been reading or posting on a blog, just think of the impact of what could happen.
We are not here to stand up and clap for Steve Gaines every time he walks up to the pulpit. For some, the blinders have come off, and the true awareness of what is going on is becoming clearer.
Unfortunately, Truth is absent from our leadership. Integrity is a thought of the past. We need to restore accountability, trust, integrity, and love to our church. We need to pray without ceasing. We need a change in leadership – sooner than later.
God will work in His time, not ours. I have to keep reminding myself of that very thing!
Ezekiel:
Thank you for your reply of 6:19 PM. Yes, He is with us when we are typing on here. He is with us; He is in us; He is for us. Hallelujah! I love Him so much. I wasted years as a Christian by not reading every single word that He had written to us. I guess I set out to read through the Bible about 5 or 6 times but always fell away from my reading by the time I got to Joshua. One day, after a lot of prayer and a revival in my life, the Lord lead me to not be fooled into starting over if I put the Bible down for days or weeks, but rather to just put a dot at the end of each chapter and to resume at the point where I had last read. That was exactly what I did and, praise His Holy Name, I finished the whole Bible. Now, I have read it several times, but still not enough times. Never enough times! I came to the realization, though, that the Word of God is the closest tangible thing we have of Him. If you want to talk to your very best friend, pick up the Bible and listen to Him.
Sorry, I didn't mean to go on so long, but I perceive a closeness to the Lord that not many possess--all from what you just replied to me. It has been nice conversing with you about our Lord.
Dee
FACTS ONLY PLEASE.
Thank you for your insight. I was blessed to read your posts.
It seems that from the Press Release on BBC website that SG may be suited well to go to one service, and cancel Bible Fellowship in the future. It seemed to work well, since many members don't stay for service anyway. it forced everyone to show up.
What will happen tommorow? No Holiday to draw from. People will return to their BFC.
What will Joe J feel like in the morning if he receives no rock star introduction and Standing O's? This is the new standard.
What will SG feel like if Joe gets the same thunderous applause usually reserved for the chiefest annointed? Careful how you respond tomorrow BBC. Better yet, just keep an eye on John Caldwell. He will lead you through this. He is usually right on cue.
By the way, for those who justify the fence jumping b/c SG has a 43" inseam. What about John's. HE was not happy about climbing that fence! He never claimed to step over. I bet it would have been funny to see Daugherty. He probably had to climb the most...
Koragg said...
Ema said...
Heaven help us! I just went to Bellevue.org to view the Bellevue Today for 12/31, and in looking through it came across something stunning!
In the Career and Singles Ministry Announcements, the following is printed:
"New Year's Eve Party - Singles in their 20's and 30's are invited to the "Black and White Hollywood Night" at Quetzal at 8:00 p.m. tonight. Cost is $10.00."
Did you think you would ever see a Bellevue function advertised as "Hollywood Night"?
All we need is Bill Clinton as guest speaker!
THANK GOD YOU ARE NOTICING!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
THIS IS MORE WARRENISM!!!PURPOSE DRIVEN!!! CGM!!! RICK WARREN!!!RICK WARREN!!! BILL HYBELS, ETC!!!
Please take the time to look up these websites I am providing you with! The Hollywood Parties started at Saddleback!!! Here is proof!!!
Please don't lose sight of what has happened...the core of your entire problem is purpose driven or one of the movements like it. Rick Warren, Bill Hybels...it really doesn't matter. It is ALL watered down, seclularized...the church has become like the world! The Paul Williams incest has surfaced due to this movement...which is a good thing. I wonder if you would have ever discovered this pedophile among you had this movement not invaded you first.
I am a victim of PD...I know first hand how horrible it can become. It is a nightmare! I am only trying to help. My life has forever changed because of it...but I would take the same stand against it and for Jesus again. No questions asked. I just want you to see and understand what is going on there. Steve Gaines must be removed and so must the guys attached at the hip. My prayers are with all of you every day.
HERE IS YOUR PARTY AND MORE...PLEASE TAKE THE TIME TO READ THESE!!!:
Here is where your Hollywood Party comes from…Saddleback. Rick Warren. Purpose Driven. CGM. PLEASE…go to this site. You can see it for yourselves!
http://www.saddlebackfamily.com/home/todaystory.asp?id=7855
Join other Saddleback singles and dance the night away on Friday, February 10, in the Worship Center! The theme is "Hollywood Glitz and Glam," so dress as your favorite TV or movie personality or come as your own glamorous self. Please remember to be conservative and appropriate in your choice of dress. No date is required, so come alone or bring your friends for a great evening of dancing, desserts, and meeting new people. Prizes will be awarded for the best dressed!
Where: The Worship Center
When: Friday, February 10, from 7:30 p.m. to midnight
Tickets are $30 and may now only be purchased at the door.
The comments here:
http://www.sliceoflaodicea.com/archives/2006/01/saddleback_spon.php
http://forums.crosswalk.com/m_744899/mpage_6/tm.htm
Blessedhope says:
I think having something like this and associating it with church is cheap and tacky - a costume party dressing up as your favorite movie star, come on. This sounds like something that would be more fitting to have at the local tavern, but come on, a sanctuary? To me, it's an insult to the sanctity and sacredness of Christ, his church, and those who are supposed to be representatives of Christ. This is mixing the world with church. I think the following verses describe it taken from 2nd Cortinthians, chapter 6:
“For what fellowship has righteousness with lawlessness? And what communion has light with darkness? 15 And what accord has Christ with Belial? Or what part has a believer with an unbeliever? 16 And what agreement has the temple of God with idols? For you* are the temple of the living God. As God has said: "I will dwell in them And walk among them. I will be their God, And they shall be My people."+ 17 Therefore "Come out from among them And be separate, says the Lord. Do not touch what is unclean, And I will receive you.”
I posted something concerning the PW issue about a week ago, and I got no response. I'm going to try again, because to me, it leaves no room for personal opinions either way about how SG handled the situation. I've prayed about this, and I hope that I don't come across as some babbling, over-emotional person.
Let me just say, I, too, am a survivor of incest. My step-father was a deacon in our Baptist church, and he molested me from the time I was 3 yrs. old unitl I was 12,(when I ran away.) My mother knew and did nothing. When I was 10yrs. old, I couldn't take it any more, and told a school counselor. Of course, it all blew up in my face. Our family had to undergo "counseling" with our church Pastor, who blamed my mother for not being a good wife, and me for "ENTICING" my step-father. We ended our sessions with my mother and I having to APOLOGIZE to my step-father and telling him we loved him. He remained a deacon in that church for as long as we attended there. The thing that I remember the most vividly about the whole situation, was when my step-father was initially confronted with the accusations, he became enraged and yelled at me, "Where's your forgiving spirit, CHRISTIAN!!!???" Need I point out that he continued abusing for another two years following our "Godly Counseling". OK, enough personal details.
My husband and I came to bellevue about 5 yrs. ago and attened PW's BFC for several years. We have sat under PW's teaching about marriage, child-rearing, making Christ LORD, etc... I also had to be "counseled" by PW because I checked the "yes" box when questioned about prior abuse.--I guess emotionally why I'm so disgusted at the way SG handled the situation and why these standing "O"s turn my stomach is because when I saw SG get behind the pulpit and "address" the issue concerning PW and heard him say that he had known since JUNE, I felt betrayed all over again by a Pastor who , having not "just fallen of the turnip truck," should have known the Biblical mandates as to how to handle such a situation--not to mention just having the common sense to at least seek Godly counsel if he was so stunded or confused by the situation! I can't look at SG's face as he speaks anymore, much less give him an "O"--All I can see is the face of PW's precious little boy as I look at the face of my own darling son, (with his dimples and freckles, and his missing front tooth,)and I can see in my mind the image of PW's baby crying and begging him to please stop. I know the fear that PW's son probably felt any time his mother had to leave him alone with his father for any reason, (I remember begging my Momma not to leave me with "him", and the terror and dread that would wash over me as I would watch her walk out the door,) and I can imagine the DISGUST that PW's son must have felt every time he watched his father get behind the pulpit to lead in prayer or teach others about Jesus. And now, PW's son and his son's family are going to have to live with the stigma and sometimes overwhelming memories of the past. Maybe I'm getting too graphic here, and if so, NBBCOF, please delete my post.
Personally, I don't believe for a minute that SG is ignorant in matters concerning Biblical principals in how to handle such matters. 1 COR. 5 spells it out VERY clearly and answers any who continue to say "Who am I to judge--I have sinned in my life," "We should forgive PW--it happened so long ago--and he HAS BEEN IN COUNSELING, after all!" I believe SG made a foolish decision in direct oppostion to scripture, and yes, I DO expect more than that from my pastor! I'm sure some will say that I'm just spewing hate and anger--I hope that's not how I come across.
I have been praying for PW and his family, and I have forgiven my step-father, although I can't forget, (especially when things like THIS come up at CHURCH!) I am just so STUNNED and ASHAMED at the things that have been happening at our church.
Anyway, to all of the others out there who have lived through abuse--I'm praying for you.
And one other thought--I know we are all so angered and disturbed by the fact that SG put our children in harm's way--as well we should be. But, we should all be equally concerned that SG, in many instances, has gone against the instructions found in God's Word since he's been at Bellevue.
I'm going to copy 1 Cor. 5. I'm not a Biblical scholar, but it just doen't seem that God could have been any clearer in this matter. If I am not correctly understanding this passage, I would appreciate any other interpretations!
1 It is actually reported that there is immorality among you, and immorality of such a kind as does not exist even among the Gentiles, that someone has his father's wife.
2 You have become arrogant and have not mourned instead, so that the one who had done this deed would be removed from your midst.
3 For I, on my part, though absent in body but present in spirit, have already JUDGED him who has so committed this, as though I were present.
4 In the name of our Lord Jesus, when you are assembled, and I with you in spirit, with the power of our Lord Jesus,
5 I have decided to deliver such a one to Satan for the destruction of his flesh, so that his spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.
6 Your boasting is not good. Do you not know that a little leaven leavens the whole lump of dough?
7 Clean out the old leaven so that you may be a new lump, just as you are in fact unleavened. For Christ our Passover also has been sacrificed.
8 Therefore let us celebrate the feast, not with old leaven, nor with the leaven of malice and wickedness, but with the unleavened bread of sincerity and truth.
9 I wrote you in my letter not to associate with immoral people;
10 I did not at all mean with the immoral people of this world, or with the covetous and swindlers, or with idolaters, for then you would have to go out of the world.
11 But actually, I wrote to you not to associate with any so-called BROTHER if he is an immoral person, or covetous, or an idolater, or a reviler, or a drunkard, or a swindler--not even to eat with such a one.
12 For what have I to do with judging outsiders? Do you not judge those who are within the church?
13 But those who are outside, God judges. REMOVE THE WICKED MAN FROM AMONG YOURSELVES.
You can go to Crosswalk.com and find any passage of scripture in numerous different versions along with commentaries. Some of the things on this blog could be discussed and argued about until the cows come home because they are based on our personal opinions. Concerning this issue, I think it's clear--our opinions don't matter.
Thanks, NBBCOF, for the instructions for putting my e-mail address in my profile. All this blogging stuff is pretty intimidating and new to me! It took me a LONG time just to figure out how to actually post! Anyway, I think I did it right.
Sorry, Fedup--I think you should be able to get in touch with me now. :-)
We have been busy today trying to acclimate a new dog to the family--now THERE's a good time! I'm just now catching up on the blog for today.
I was asked about the issue of my step-father being a deacon....I really don't have an answer to that. It doesn't make a lot of sense to me either, because our church was EXTREMELY legalistic--so I don't know how they got around that issue.
I'm just so thankful for this blog and all of you who are so courageously standing up for the Lord and the Truth He reveals in His Word. What an opportunity! What a blessing to be able to stand for Him in these days of darkness and testings and trials. And, because we are in the Ladocian church age, there will be more trials and tougher days ahead.
It is sure a blessing for me to see the use of discernment and read the scriptures you all quote.
Thanks also for sharing so deeply of yourselves and the hurts and trials some of you have been through. It has given you a keen insight into the ramifications and failure of our "leadership" or total lack thereof.
The Lord is on His Throne! I see Him high and lifted up and His trane fills the temple. His judgements are sure and His mercies endure forever. He reigns! The omnipotent reigns!
imaresistor quoted:
"Come out from among them And be separate, says the Lord. Do not touch what is unclean, And I will receive you.”
Thank you, im, for taking time to pray for us, encourage us, and yes, blog with us.
BTW, im, I like your blog name.
Churchmouse...
Thank you so much.
I wanted to link all of you up to the fact that this Hollywood Party that your youth is being exposed to on New Year's Eve is from Saddleback...Rick Warren himself. The same man who sang Jimmy Hendrix's Purple Haze at Saddleback's 25th Celebration. They start this purpose driven dribble in the children's and youth's departments for Pete Sakes! If none of you have read Transitioning by Dan Southerland and recommended by Rick Warren (and taught at Saddleback) PLEASE read it! Dan Southerland also teaches seminars in transitioning your church from program driven to purpose driven in North Carolina, the home to and owner of Transitioning, Inc. Google it. You must understand what you are up against. And I realize that you do...to an extent. What may be coming your way may be worse than what you are expecting. Maybe not...just on my experience alone, I would have to mention that.
Thank you again for your kind words...and may God bless you all.
Did anyone else get the church magazine in the mail today and read SG's request for us all to move on in the Letter from the Pastor?
Does anyone one know where Joe Jernigan stands on these issues concerning SG?
prayingcolossians1, I doubt you'll get any response from ace or any of the other "SG can do wrong, but we'll support him no matter what" crowd. I'd love to hear some of them attempt to explain away SG's actions to you.
Has anybody thought about this: according to almost any study you find, in a BBC church service every Sunday morning, there are somewhere around 500-600 people who have suffered or are suffering some type of sexual abuse, if we go with the general statistic of 1 in 4 women. What do you think those people were feeling that morning as they heard their pastor state his case for protecting a sexual predator like the ones that preyed on them?
It breaks my heart to think of it, but in the 10 years we spent teaching 3rd graders, it's almost a certainty that some of those kids were being abused that were showing up in our class each Sunday.
Would I have been fit to teach if I had ignored such actions if I had ever discovered them? If I had stayed silent for 6 months, 6 weeks, 6 years, does it make it OK to just say, "I'm sorry, I talked to the parent and he/she said it was just a one-time thing. I showed them grace and compassion and never reported it." I think not, but apparently Ace, Brad Jobe and some others wouldn't have a problem with it, at least nothing I couldn't get out of by saying, "Oops! I'm sorry. It was a mistake of the head, not the heart."
imaresistor,
Some of us have put in a great deal of time studying up on the PD/CGM. I've been concerned about this shift for some time...mostly because of the watering down of the gospel, and the entertainment approach to worship and evangelism. Know that your input is appreciated, and like you...i know this has the potential to get much worse than at present. Blessings.
imaresistor:
Thanks for the links to Saddleback on the "Hollywood Nights" event. This is unbelievable!
Compromise is settling in on our churche like a fog straight from Satan.
I cannot believe that our leaders, who are supposed to be basing their ministries on the same scriptures you quoted, could possibly think this is the right way for young Christian people to be "entertained"!
The Saddleback function you referenced even told them:
"So dress as your favorite TV or movie personality or come as your own glamorous self. Please remember to be conservative and appropriate in your choice of dress."
Since when has anyone in Hollywood been "conservative and appropriate" in their dress???
Can anyone say, "IDOLATRY"???
Koragg, keep resisting, and God bless you for keeping your standards high and having the discernment to know this isn't right!!
I just pray there are more young people like you who will not participate.
ju,
is that something we can read online somewhere? or can you tell us more about what was said about moving on?
Unfortunately I don't have the time to respond to a bunch of posts here and I won't for the next few days....but I wanted to tell Ed to grow up.
Ed, you need to stop assuming what people are thinking/saying and actually read the opposing views for a change. It might do you some good and won't make yourself out to be a fool to the others who have been reading my posts.
Cheers...happy new year.
nthepew, I was in Joe's SS class which is now the "pastors class" and he made it clear he thought we were fortunate to have sg as our pastor. He could have changed his mind since all this new stuff has come to light, but last I knew he was very much pro sg.
nthepew said...
"Does anyone one know where Joe Jernigan stands on these issues concerning SG?"
I do not know if he has said anything to anyone about his position on SG or PW. I do know that due to his health issues, he is not in a position to loose his job, but I believe that if it came right down to the job or the truth, he would take the high road and stand for the truth and God's Word. I am anxious to hear him preach a gospel message fom the pulpit tomorrow morning and evening. It will be good to hear God's Word preached at Bellevue on Sundays again.
I want to also say that my children did NOT go to Gatlinburg this year and that is by THEIR choosing, I did not have to say a word against it, they can see SG for what he is. It is a shame that there are those established church members, (taught under Dr Rogers!),in our midst who have less discernment that some teens. Where were they when the scriptures were being taught and preached? Asleep?
well if it ain't ace...where you been, you cookie monster?
Wow, that Hollywood party is really something. I knew things like this would start to happen when the pastor started preaching to single people.
Why can't they just go to Beale street for New Years like respectable singles?
Rod Almondmartanti
Thanks, Since he's still on staff I had my suspicions. I had always thought highly of him, I guess the personality and power of sg is more overpowering or seductive than taking a moral stand.
socwork:
I had to fish the Bellevue Messenger out of the garbage (where it belongs), but here is the letter:
Dear Church Family,
We have officially arrived in the new year of 2007. It's hard to believe that 2006 is a memory. I appreciate the month of January. It's a time for new beginnings. Holding a fresh calendar, we have the opportunity to refocus, begin anew, and move ahead.
As Christians, we should ask the Lord to help us avoid the pitfall of living in the past. There's nothing wrong with looking at the past and learning from the past. But as Christians, we must avoid the temptation of living in the past. We must not be paralyzed by past mistakes, nor should we be petrified in how good things “used to be”. Life is meant to be lived one day at a time. We are to ask God to lead us into His will each day and live for His glory.
As we begin this new year, I encourage you to follow Paul’s advice in Philippians 3:13-14, “Brethren, I do not regard myself as having laid hold of it yet; but one thing I do: forgetting what lies behind and reaching forward to what lies ahead, I press on toward the goal for the prize of the upward call of God in Christ Jesus.”
I pray that the year 2007 will be “A New Beginning” for you. God bless you.
III John 2,
Bro. Steve
(Note: In the second paragraph, the words "looking", "learning" and "living" were in italics for emphasis.)
You can also view this on bellevue.org. There is an icon on the main page for "Bellevue Messenger".
imaresistor-
Thank you for your insight and your comments.
-------
The whole Purpose Driven Life (PDL) movement is a scary, but true reality that we are dealing with at BBC. Our Pastor and leaders mock those of us who have asked the candid questions about whether BBC is going the way of Rick Warren.
The facts are there. They have stated they are “going to teach (our) children how to worship.” There has been more of a tendency for our conservative BBC to conform to the world over the last 18 months or so than ever before. We want to “reach out” to people and not “cast stones” at them. We want the “unchurched” to “feel comfortable” at BBC. This is Warrenism....
faithnhope,
WTB and I both left responses to your comment on my blog, if you haven't seen it yet...also I'll post a thread on the subject...I have one or two new ones I may post first, but I promise to put it up in the near future.
LOL, thank you ema!
You can go put it back in the trash now :)
given the context of what was going on in some of the churches I tend to think that "husband of one wife" would mainly be referring to polygamy and the guilty party of divorce, but there is a difficulty in how "guilty party" is interpreted.
Sounds like somebody is really anxious to forget the past year and move on. Sounds like they want everyone else to forget the past year and all his mistakes and to move on also. Hummmmmmmmmmmmm I wonder why..........
Will the problem and handling of PW go away, just like that too?
How about the threat to MABTS of removing BELLEVUE'S support, because sg has a personal vendeta against the the man of God, Dr. Spradlin? Forget that and move on?
How about the way Mr. Rogers was treated and her request for keeping her beloved husband's reputation from being draged through the mud and muck, denied? Fkorget that, another mistake and move on? Or how about the attack on Dr. Spradlin when he stood up for truth and the Lord, accusing him of wanting sg job? Hummmmmmmmmmmmmmmm Yep, I bet he wants to move on and forget it all happened. Yet, I cannot wonder if that letter isn't once again using scripture for personal benefit. Don't know it is but it sure looks like it might be.
rod,
you mean like "propaganda?"
propaganda: information, ideas, or rumors deliberately spread widely to help or harm a person, group, movement, institution, nation, etc.
just a thought!
Facts Only Please, All of Grace, Ema...Others,
If I can say anything at all which will shed some light, I am humbled. May God lead all of us to discern His Word and share with others.
Some of you will be aware of this...others may not. I would just like to interject here how infiltrated the Southern Baptist Convention is with the purpose driven life and more recently the emergent church movement...new age. If you are not aware what this emergent movement is, please go to Ingrid Schuelter, Brit Kjos, Deborah Dombrowski and google one or all of them and learn what it is. Our SBC president, Dr. Frank Page, along with the rest of the SBC is promotiing these ecumenical movements. Please know what all of this is. It is like knowing how to spot counterfeit money...you must know what the real thing looks like. Anyway, Dr. Frank Page had this to say...I was so shocked when I first realized what the SBC had turned into. Here is his statement:
I
Total Truth: Dr.Frank Page Answers Questions for SBC Bloggers
http://pastortad.blogspot.com/2006/05/drfrank-page-answers-questions-for-sbc.html
SBC President Frank Page said: "I see many valuable contributions to the SBC coming from the Emergent Leaders Movement. I believe it is a positive thing to see a broader number of participants in our convention’s direction. I personally applaud this movement."
aog,
Speaking of cookies I emailed you earlier today. Are you incredibly busy or are you ignoring the Princess?
Diana
ima,
I'm familiar with the movement...the problem with it is that it's hard to pin down because of the broad spectrum of thought within it...I do know there's a lot of mysticism, iconism and the like involved in it. It's a very fluid movement and morphs quickly.
Lady Di,
Yes I got your email...and will respond..sorry for the delay...thanks for the cookies...the cyber variety are especially low cal :)
Socwork and Rod...
You have got it! This is exactly what they do. Exactly! I realize you may not be serious in your statement, but you are exactly right! They actually start rumors on people who are resisting their changes, the abuse they are dishing out to certain ones, etc. They do this in order to divide and conquer. It is that simple! This way, they get rid of those who are objecting to what they want. You are a resistor, a pillar (those who hold things up), and a leader from hell.
And they do tell people to move on. Forget what has happened. They will even tell them if they haven't already to not even talk about it. Can you not already tell that people have turned on you and that they think SG...well lets just say they will swallow and follow without hesitation. And to heck with you people. It becomes unbelievable if it hasn't already.
God bless you.
How can you fight this new age movement in the church when they have an entire system to combat the believers that resist it? Look at what's happening at Bellevue. The godly men who stood up against sg were villified and cast out. Look at what they are trying to do to Dr Spradlin. What Bellevue memeber doesn't know what a man of God he is and yet look at the blood they screamed for Barabus! How can you stand up and succeed against this juggernaught. ( I don't have spell ck on this and my brain and fingers don't work together. sorry)
bereans,
unfortunately it is a bad dream...but one we can't wake up from
Now you are trying to make something out of the "Hollywood night" the Singles are having? WOW!! That is REACHING and on the same level as when some tried to make something of the i2 memphis ads. This is past ridiculous!!
The problem I'm having is that I simply cannot believe that a true believer would not see that these tactics are from satan. Even if they were deceived by the angel of light and bought into this movement, they have to know it's tactics are from hell itself. They are the antithesis of Christianity.
4545,
actually it's not the ads I have a problem with...it's i2 itself
aog,
No problem and no rush. Sometimes my emails vanish into cyberspace never to be heard from again!
Rod,
I hate to be the bearer of bad news but there are Bellevue members out there who WILL villify Spradlin and the Rogers family. It has already begun. I can't explain how it has happened but I can tell you it is happening.
4545 Just a thought. Isn't it interesting there was a rape on Bellevue campus this past month. I don't know that that has ever occured before. I do not know the details, and I don't know who the parties were, but you cannot help but wonder when you advertise in such magazines that it would attract a certain type of crowd. It is just a thought.
AOG said
"I'm familiar with the movement...the problem with it is that it's hard to pin down because of the broad spectrum of thought within it...I do know there's a lot of mysticism, iconism and the like involved in it. It's a very fluid movement and morphs quickly."
In reading you for some time now, I have come to respect your thought process, as I have most of the bloggers here.
However, I tend to disagree with you on this issue. Please hear me out. It isn't hard to pin down, in fact I am of the belief that you have already pinned it down. That is why you are on this blog fighting for your church. It morphs quickly? No, I disagree again. In fact, if they go about this the way they are trained to, it should take several years just to get it in like they want it. It is the 'slow boil' theory. Once it is in, it is in. It is a long process...many changes to be made.
there's no scriptural mandate to allure the world into the church..nor to adjust the church in order to lure them in...we do have a mandate to go out into the world and win them to Christ..the church is for the building up of the body to do the work of evangelism and discipleship.
ima,
my understanding of this movement is that it's a reaction to postmodernism...I say hard to pin down, referring to it's theology.ie. McClaren's "A Generous Orthodoxy"...plus they refer to it as a "conversation"..which again keeps it fluid...also there is divergence in thought....say Mark Driscoll could hardly be compared to Brian McClaren...different ends of the emergent/emerging "conversation"
4545:
If we are so wrong about "Hollywood Night", would you please tell us the Godly purpose of this party?
Remember, isn't Bellevue the same church that asks our little children to come for a Harvest Festival at church on Halloween to give them something wholesome to do while others are celebrating a Pagan holiday?
How different is celebrating something glorifying Hollywood? Everyone in Hollywood is a poster child for Paganism!
That is not REACHING, that's TRUTH, and it is described fully in God's Word!
Rod- What exactly is of Satan? Would you care to give facts on this "rape"??
Rod said, "How can you fight this new age movement in the church when they have an entire system to combat the believers that resist it? Look at what's happening at Bellevue. The godly men who stood up against sg were villified and cast out. Look at what they are trying to do to Dr Spradlin. What Bellevue memeber doesn't know what a man of God he is and yet look at the blood they screamed for Barabus! How can you stand up and succeed against this juggernaught. ( I don't have spell ck on this and my brain and fingers don't work together. sorry)"
I know...I know. Look what they did to Jesus. You must remember that the majority is not always right. In fact, this is the case at Bellevue right now. And thing is, there may well not be anything the resistors can do to stop all of this...but you must know that regardless you must stand for Jesus Christ at all cost. This may well be the separation of the wheat from the tarres. You all have already sounded the trumpet...you are all watchmen. And what a magnificent job you are doing. You are being persecuted...just look at Mark Sharpe, Jim Whitmire, and others. I don't even know who all...but you do. My heart is so troubled to see all of you hurting so. But know that SG is not the man for Bellevue. He is not.
Are there enought people as it stands right now if this came to a vote that the resistors would be victorious. I must tell you even at this, that it has been known to happen that they use predetermined votes. Just be sure to follow the procedure Germantown used for votes. But...are there enought people? Which way would the vote go right now? I strongly suspect they have got things going there way.
AllOfGrace,
well if it ain't ace...where you been, you cookie monster?
I just have better things to do with my time then spend it here with gossipers/crybabies.
Ema,
Everyone in Hollywood is a poster child for Paganism!
Huh? Everyone?
4545, I posted this earlier, and i would really like to hear from you, specifically on this:
I am wondering if there is anyone here that would defend SG in his decision to keep PW on the payroll after SG was made aware of the fact that PW is a pedofile.
.
Are any of you SG supporters happy knowing that your 'undesignated' tithe is paying the salary of a pedofile.
Do you feel that this was a wise decision on SG's part?
I'd really like to know what you are telling yourself about this to make it ' ok', and allows you to fervently support him with your applause, your standing ovations, and your wallet.
Thanks.
They are not celebrating Hollywood. You do not know what you are talking about and you are making something out of NOTHING! Seems like the thing to do around here.
Unfortunately, GBC is still "tainted" with Pd. Unfortunately, too many people don't see it for what it is. We can blame some of that on our pastors and teachers in that they are not getting out the entire counsel of God. God meant His entire Word to be taught IN CONTEXT. ALL OUT OF CONTEXT IS PRETEXT. Now we get watered down sermonettes that are based on the one who is preachings idea of what he wants to get acroxx to the audience, and some scripture thrown in to give validity to their points.
When was the last time we went through a book of the Bible and let the Word of God speak for itself? Hebrews gives a severe WARNING. If we continue on milk there is a promise: WE WILL BECOME HARD OF HEARING. Perhaps we have become hard of hearing.
Theres actually 2 reasons why I'm not participating in the party tomorrow night. Neither of them deals with Rick Warren because I didn't know this was something Warren came up with.
The reason I am not participating is because:
1. I cannot support a church where the senior pastor harbors pedophiles.
2. I make it a rule not to go downtown after dark for safety reasons (I live out in Fayette County).
Though I will say this much...I do a mean Elvis impersonation lol.
bepatient said:
“Just another friendly reminder- I do not believe the term "moral failure" was meant to downplay how serious this is. SG was speaking to a large congregation of people, including CHILDREN. I think it was a fairly appropriate term given the circumstances.”
2:52 PM, December 30, 2006
-------
I read this earlier today, and I was not going to comment. However, it has been on my mind, and I feel that I need to put my two cents worth in. First, I don’t in any way, form, or fashion pretend to understand what goes on in the mind of Steve Gaines. He has clearly demonstrated in some of his messages and addresses that he is not bashful to say anything that is on his mind.
In other addresses or messages to the congregation, he has not held back, regardless of whether any children were present in the congregation. In Steve Gaines’ sermon on Sunday morning, September 17, 2006, our child asked how to spell bestiality. Now, that is quite sobering to have your child ask about this, especially in the middle of the sermon. If you would like to confirm this, please do so. It was in point “IV. Pattern of Marriage.” SG referred to four sins that defile a nation: adultery, abortion, homosexuality, and bestiality.
The only reason I bring this up is that I do not believe for one second that Steve Gaines used the phrase “moral failure” to be nice when he was addressing “a large congregation of people, including children.”
A Thought-
Maybe our illustrious leaders could be so kind as to start using a rating system for the comments that will spew from the pulpit. The lay-leaders could each have a sign that they hold up and parade across the front of the church at the appropriately designated time. I can see it now: “Applause” (oops…that doesn’t need a sign); “Here Comes a Big One” (nope…that one is a weekly thing); “Swallow and Follow” (strike that…it has already been implemented); “Don’t Ask and Don’t Tell” (oops…that one is already being used, too). They could even include the nice little bags that are found in airplanes in case somebody gets sick….
Ace, dear Ace,
You are here to defend Hollywood, now!
I was speaking of "Hollywood" in the sense of the entertainment industry. I am sure there are a few Christians in the population of the city of Hollywood, CA., but the majority of the Hollywood stars are as pagan as they can be and promote Kabala, Scientology, Buddhism, etc., etc.
Please explain to me why a gathering of our Career and Singles Group would be called "Black and White Hollywood Night"?
I don't get it!
AOG said, "ima,
my understanding of this movement is that it's a reaction to postmodernism...I say hard to pin down, referring to it's theology.ie. McClaren's "A Generous Orthodoxy"...plus they refer to it as a "conversation"..which again keeps it fluid...also there is divergence in thought....say Mark Driscoll could hardly be compared to Brian McClaren...different ends of the emergent/emerging "conversation"
Yes, I would have to say the theology would be hard to pin down. It is fluid...you are right. It is contemplative prayer. This goes way back. It is all a movement to the 'one world rule'...the ecumenical movement. If you will pay close attention to Rick Warren, you will see that is where he is headed as well. It may have been you that posted to me that the youth is being taught this at the youth camps. I just don't think we should have to handle that...anymore than the pedophilia thing. If it's sick, it is sick.
You will have to forgive me, but I am very strong in this. I don't take kindly to seeing Jesus being offended. And that is what these movements are doing. I don't need the Purpose Driven Life books, or others that are watering down my Lord's words...I do just fine with His Word...The Holy Bible. I am terribly offended knowing that these missionaries are going out into the world and passing out Rick Warren's books instead of the Bible.
Did you happen to notice the Homelife Magazine, the November or December issue (can't remember which)? Erwin McManus was on the front cover. He has been delving into the emergent church.
I have never said Dr. Gaines has not made mistakes. He has made many, just like ALL of us. PERIOD! ALL of us, every day, make mistakes. Some big and some small. Dr. Rogers made a TON of mistakes.
Regarding the PW's deal, WE do not have even close to all the facts yet. Did Dr. Gaines make a mistake, probably. What does that include? Not sure at this point. This is a serious legal deal and we do not know all the facts right now. We will soon.
BTW, call me dumb, but what does CGM mean?
ace wrote:
"I just have better things to do with my time then spend it here with gossipers/crybabies."
Well, there we go with the name calling. But I guess it's okay if it's Ace doing it.
Actually, I don't think it's okay for anyone to be doing it! And I'd like to take this opportunity to ask that everyone refrain from this sort of behavior.
BTW, Ace. When are you going to bring some facts to the discussion? Just wonderin'.
NBBCOF
CGM = Church Growth Movement
Post a Comment