David Perdue, a member of the Board of Trustees for Mid-America Baptist Theological Seminary, reportedly called a meeting of the board this afternoon for the express purpose of calling for Dr. Michael Spradlin's resignation. The good news is no vote was taken, but it is strongly believed that David Perdue may have been the lone vote, or one of only 2 or 3 votes, against Dr. Spradlin.
Dr. Spradlin has issued this statement.
In it he states...
"On Wednesday, the Commercial Appeal published the story on the front page and the seminary began to receive calls. The number of calls and emails were overwhelmingly positive but some negative responses were received. Three responses of note were James Dobson, who I spoke with at length, a vice president with the international mission board, and a Baptist college president. All expressed support and appreciation for someone taking a stand on ministry ethics and the wrong of child molestation. Dr. Dobson emphasized to me that 'When prominent leaders have no accountability and make these kinds of decisions, other prominent leaders must stand up and hold them accountable.'
"My friend from the IMB said, 'Mike, thank you for your stand in this matter of child sexual abuse. I deal with this matter far too often, and feel that we must take very strong stands against such abuse, and the coverups that far too often accompany it.' These men reflect the teaching of our school. We must follow Scripture and obey God no matter what the cost."
Thank you again, Dr. Spradlin, for your stand for Truth!
This is the Commercial Appeal's latest article.
This is a duplicate of the Commercial Appeal poll which accompanies the article.
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184 comments:
FWIW, David Perdue was also a member of the illustrious "Communications Committee."
Yes, thank you again, Dr. Spradlin, for having integrity and courage in the midst of very difficult circumstances.
NASS,
If it is true about the vote over at the Seminary I have 2 observations:
1. It is interesting that Mr Perdue had a chance to voice his opinion.
2. It also is interesting after he voiced his opinion he got to vote.
telos,
There was no vote. If there would have been, David Perdue likely would have been in the minority, but there was no vote.
WTB,
Drop me an email if you would..thanks.
Last night our pastor stood in the pulpit all teary-eyed and said he had forgiven Mike Spradlin. He also claimed to have a pastor's heart.
Dr. Gaines, Mike is a member of your church. Even though he is the interim at GBC, you are still his pastor. Should I assume it was your head and not your big "pastor's heart" that collaborated with David Perdue to try to have Mike removed as President of MABTS less than 24 hours after you claimed you had forgiven him? I am truly puzzled because I know David Perdue did not act without discussing it with you first.
Please answer, inquiring minds want to know.
WestTN,
Should I assume it was your head and not your big "pastor's heart" that collaborated with David Perdue to try to have Mike removed as President of MABTS less than 24 hours after you claimed you had forgiven him?
G-O-S-S-I-P
Who are these "people" you are talking about? Were you there to hear this information firsthand or did you hear it from your best friend's cousin's neighbor's sister-in-law's nephew?
Ace,
Some of us know things and people too.
Why don't you admit you are David Coombs?
WestTN,
Some of us know things and people too.
Then start talking, please? Quote your sources.
Why don't you admit you are David Coombs?
The same reason you don't admit you're the Keebler Elf.
"We must follow Scripture and obey God no matter what the cost."
Sums it up.
Thanks Dr. Spradlin for knowing the Word, loving our Lord, obeying Him and leaving the consequences is Him. Thank you sir for the solid example.
I think Dobson summed it up well too.
Andrew
Then start talking, please? Quote your sources.
And be cited for gossiping? Or even worse, have you guys attack them? I think not.
Call me a gossip all you want. I know a lot of things that Bellevue members would find interesting that have never appeared on the blog. In particular, I know a whole lot about how Steve Gaines behaved at West Jackson. He hasn't been forgotten.
WestTN,
And be cited for gossiping? Or even worse, have you guys attack them? I think not.
Fact vs. gossip - there is a difference.
Call me a gossip all you want.
Believe me, I will as long as you do continue to post gossip...'cause that's exactly what you are.
I couldn't find the poll you're referring to.
ace,
Play nice...I was starting to like you...don't disappoint me
AllOfGrace,
What did I say? I am just saying quit gossiping and start posting facts. Quote your sources. Otherwise you are post is not credible.
Thank you Dr. Spradlin for standing up for little children and for what is right.
Thank you for teaching and preaching the gospel of our LORD Jesus Christ.
Thank you for doing all the things that you do in His name.
We are obviously going through a cleansing at Bellevue. And, with David Purdue's action today, MId-America may be going through a cleansing, too.
When the train leaves the station at Bellevue with passengers Steve Gaines, Harry Smith, Chuck Taylor, Mark Doughtery, Phil Weatherwax and other inner circle Bellevue folks, I hope it stops at Mid-America and picks up David Purdue.
Ace,
Quote your sources. Otherwise you are post is not credible.
And your posts are credible? You claim you know the truth but you never post any truth. All you say is we are wrong. Why not start telling us the truth instead of telling how wrong we are? The only reason this forum exists, as imperfect as it is, is because no forum was offered within the church. Bellevue members are left to find answers however they can find them. Is some of what is posted here wrong? Sure, that is the nature of human communication. But I cannot tell you how many times I have dismissed what I thought was a rumor only to have it unexpectedly confirmed weeks later. If the church started telling the truth, and the whole truth, you would be surprised how quickly this forum would die.
Servant,
If that train that you speak of leaves the station, there will be many more cars behind it. Be careful what you scheme for as it very well may happen. Many good men have to be corrupt for you to be right. 90 to 95% of the congregation disagree with you. Think about what happens to Bellevue if this train leaves the station.
WestTN,
And your posts are credible?
Honestly? Yes.
You claim you know the truth but you never post any truth.
Find a post where I have said something not true and then I will believe you. OH wait, you can't do that because I don't gossip.
All you say is we are wrong.
Maybe because...you are wrong? Wow, what a concept!
WTN,
Amen! If ace or anyone else from BBC would be forthcoming with the truth and stop hiding behind their egos, we would not exist on this blog. I don't care what his/her name is, but I can almost guarantee that he/she is on staff or in a leadership position - too much inside knowledge.
By the way - do you know bratton's blog address? I want to see what this outlandish (but reformed?) thespian has to say!
ace,
Come on..be fair here...you have to post something besides a denial of someone else's post before you can rightly claim you haven't said anything that's not true.
I just wish you all would read what you are typing. What is going on on this blog? You are acting like little children. This will be my last post and viewing of this filth. Good luck to you all and I hope you feel better and refreshed each day after your daily cessions with the blog. I should have listened to my sunday school teacher and never come here to begin with. I should be reading my devotional Experiencing God right now. I have also been reading on and developing my Spirt filled life. It's funny...I promise the Holy Spirit just told me to type this and to never return. He whispered in my right ear and in my left. I will obey. Merry Christmas, I love you in Christ, and I'll be praying for Bro. Steve and Mrs. Donna and family as well as the rest of the cast of characters in this drama. In closing let me say I forgive Bro. Steve. I wish he wouldn't burst out singing sometimes :O) j/k but I love him and I support him. He is a Godly man.
To “let there be real harmony,” allow for no “divisions” and “be of one mind, united in thought and purpose” does not require everyone to believe exactly the same. There is a difference between having opposing viewpoints and being divisive. A group of people will not completely agree on every issue, but they can work together harmoniously if they agree on what truly matters: Jesus Christ is Lord of all. In your church, speak and behave in a way that will reduce arguments and increase harmony.
Mom4,
I don't care what his/her name is, but I can almost guarantee that he/she is on staff or in a leadership position - too much inside knowledge.
From me? I have never posted any "inside knowledge." But whatever.
AllOfGrace,
Come on..be fair here...you have to post something besides a denial of someone else's post before you can rightly claim you haven't said anything that's not true.
First Mom4 accuses me of posting inside information then you say I haven't posted anything of importance...I wonder which one is true. You guys are confusing me.
ace,
I must have missed the inside info you're referring to. Can you give me the time stamp on the post?..thanks
everytime i do that they make me have to register
ez,
thanks.
ace,
Ok...we'll see if it comes on tonight or tomorrow.
anyone..do they stream the broadcast at 10:00?
AllOfGrace,
I must have missed the inside info you're referring to. Can you give me the time stamp on the post?..thanks
Ask Mom4 about that. I never claimed to have any inside information.
Actually, I may be mistaken....the story probably ran at 5pm...
I'll research and get back to you.
AllOfGrace,
anyone..do they stream the broadcast at 10:00?
I don't think so...I don't see anything at wmctv.com
I have been a bellevue member for 22 years and I am deeply saddened by what Satan has been able to do with our church and the legacy Dr Rogers left behind.
I have been hesitant to participate in the blogs and websites because I know a lot of what has been said is pure speculation. However, I can no longer support a Pastor or church leadership team that breaks man's law by trespassing and not reporting child rape as well as God's law by not following his rules set out in scripture as it pertains to conflict resolution and spiritual leadership.
I applauded Doctor Spradlin and fully support the resignation of not only our Senior Pastor but all who have been involved.
I believe it is about time that the pastor and his team sit down and open the pulpit to the people of the church! We have questions and we want them answered without a script and legal preperation.
I do not want to see my church home destroyed because some of the leaders have been blinded by Satan.
all of grace, you have mail.
ace,
you were right about the 10pm broadcast
brad jobe,
i may not be able to read it till tomorrow...i'm having problems with the yahoo server
bereans,
LOL...good idea..thanks for the info
AllOfGrace,
you were right about the 10pm broadcast
I think the full story aired at 5pm but they showed some of the positive comments again at 10pm...
I wonder why the positive story wasn't linked here...hmm...
Ace,
So you must be Jim Vandersteeg.
May I offer a suggestion? I have noted that many of you are attending other churches, which I can certainly appreciate. However, it is a trick of the trade of this movement to spring a preplanned business meeting after phoning all the cronies to be sure to show up to vote...and then vote you resistors out. It happens all the time led by the leadership of these purpose driven transitioning churches. Don't let this be pulled over on you.
Tim,
So you must be Jim Vandersteeg.
So you must be Tim Coggins? I just wanted to know if you were related to Daniel, that is all. I'm not making a list.
Ace,
What do you make of the church administrations refusal to honor Mrs. Rogers request to clarify that the previous people mentioned in being familar with the PW issue?
Do you believe that it would be the right thing to make sure that people aren't confused?
Tim,
We'll see what's said about this issue on Sunday. Make sure you are in attendance or you might miss the issue being addressed.
And if that statement about Mrs. Rogers request was denied then I disagree with that....but I will wait until Sunday to see what is going to be addressed.
Ace,
Ok, so I no longer believe that you are Jim Vandersteeg. As a matter of fact, I believe that I might be some one that I know better than that. Possibly have a younger brother in Texas I believe.
ace said...
And if that statement about Mrs. Rogers request was denied then I disagree with that....but I will wait until Sunday to see what is going to be addressed.
Are you insinuating that Mrs. Rogers is less trustworthy than Dr Gains? That is, "yeah, she said that, but I"ll wait to hear the REAL story from the wagon circlers Sunday."
Tim,
Ok, so I no longer believe that you are Jim Vandersteeg.
Good, because I'm not him.
As a matter of fact, I believe that I might be some one that I know better than that. Possibly have a younger brother in Texas I believe.
I'm sorry, but I don't understand what you're saying here? It looks like there might be a typo or two...could you please clarify what you mean or reword what you said? Thanks!
Ace,
Do you have a younger brother that lives in Texas?
FinanceGuy,
Are you insinuating that Mrs. Rogers is less trustworthy than Dr Gains?
No, not at all. What I'm saying it, I did not hear the radio interview with her yet so I don't know what she said. If what you guys are posting is true, then like I said, I disagree with the decision. Alright? Is that good enough for you?
Tim,
Do you have a younger brother that lives in Texas?
Nope.
Everyone Here:
I have only been keeping up with this for a few weeks, but I have noticed that Ace really hasn't posted anything as someone who actually has witnessed anything. I would encourage all of you to simply ignore Ace's posts, as it seems (s)he is only trying to antagonize everyone to pettiness in order to bring shame on the church body(BBC and beyond).
Tim: did you get my answer about the Assistant Pastor? Mark Daugherty
Would you ever have thought in your wildest imaginations that you would have heard speculation on the local TV news that the pastor of Bellevue Baptist Church might face criminal prosecution? Not for preaching the Word of God like in Communist China, but for a simple "mistake of the mind".
When will this all end?????
Hurt,
I would encourage all of you to simply ignore Ace's posts,
That's an excellent way to avoid the opposing side...by simpling ignoring them. Great suggestion...let's just censor everything you guys disagree with.
Interesting letters to the editor in today's Commercial Appeal. Four letters, all "pro Gaines" and "anti Spradlin," and all four contained things that were factually wrong. I find it difficult to believe they didn't receive any letters with opposing views or even any letters expressing similar views without all the inaccuracies.
I disagree with the decision. Alright? Is that good enough for you?
Ace,
It's good to hear you say that, but quite frankly, unless you are one of the...uh...well...unless there were people the pastor would listen to, and you were one of them, doesn't really matter now does it?
Anyone interested,
I went ahead and updated my profile with my real name.
Tim Coggins.
Yes the Tim Coggins from the Monday news broadcast. It was something that I planned on letting be known anyway.
I informed Ace in an e-mail, but Ace prefers to remain hidden. No skin off my nose.
By the way I don't live in a gated community so if a deacon or two or more want to come visit they won't have to jump any fences.
Ace
That's an excellent way to avoid the opposing side...by simpling ignoring them. Great suggestion...let's just censor everything you guys disagree with.
Kinda like how the pastor tells people who have an opposing view that "maybe they should go find another place to worship"
not so much fun when you're on the other side of that is it?
Tim,
I informed Ace in an e-mail, but Ace prefers to remain hidden. No skin off my nose.
I receive a lot of hate mail. I could only imagine what would happen if my name got out there. I prefer to stay physically safe as I am quite fragile like a little flower.
hurtexbbcer,
Yes, I saw it.
I really wondered if it might have been Bob Sorrell. I was going to be really disappointed in him if it had been. I am sure that he is not perfect, but I have always regarded him as very good and Godly man.
Tim,
You better be careful. If SG is forced to resign, or is criminally prosecuted, you, Haywood and Josh will be blamed. (Like you really have that kind of power).
When Ted Haggard resigned, the people who outed him as a drug-using homosexual hypocrite, got hate mail, recieved death threats, and reports are that at least one has had to go into hiding. These leaders are put on pedestals by some people,(like Ace) and they do nothing wrong, and when they are wrong it's someone elses fault and we should just "forgive and forget". (unless you are a deacon who doesn't tithe, and then we should exercise disicpline of course)
You know what? I am sorry, I didn't mean it exactly the way it came out. I just meant Ace's posts that are of the antagonizing nature, that have nothing factual to back them up.
sorry Ace
New BBC Open Forum said...
Interesting letters to the editor in today's Commercial Appeal. Four letters, all "pro Gaines" and "anti Spradlin," and all four contained things that were factually wrong. I find it difficult to believe they didn't receive any letters with opposing views or even any letters expressing similar views without all the inaccuracies.
It's not surprise that liberals usually defend and protect the immoral. After all, they LOVED Clinton and swear he was the great president of all time, aside from the equally womanizing and cowardly Kennedy. And we all know how liberal the C.A. is! (Or Mike Flemming calls it, the "morning publication" because he refuses to give it publicity and can barely stand to utter the title.)
Hurt,
You know what? I am sorry, I didn't mean it exactly the way it came out. I just meant Ace's posts that are of the antagonizing nature, that have nothing factual to back them up.
sorry Ace
No problem...though I will have to disagree we all have our own opinions. Some people will disagree with you and other will agree...that's just the way it goes. :-)
I am a husband and a father. We go to a church in Memphis. I know that I speak for many that have decided to simply watch and listen rather than post. Humor me with my thoughts as I decide to finally share a post.
FIRST A FEW DISCLAIMERS:
It goes without saying that emotions cloud all of our ability to speak and respond in a way that honors Christ. We must strive for discernment that only comes from Christ on these important issues. God can use times like this to refine us as individual Christians. My hope is that God will do that for everyone who is involved in the debate. Satan is also at work wanting to distract Christians and non Christians from future maturity or salvation in Christ.
I have friends at Bellevue and have respect for many of the members who are supporting Steve Gaines.
I also know that both sides in the argument concerning Steve Gaines are not 100% correct. Both sides have acted out of flesh rather than the Spirit and I am no exception to that.
:END OF DISCLAIMERS
However, what is clear based not upon gossip but solely upon the words spoken by Mr. Gaines and his actions is this - he has not been a responsible pastor. His way of dealing with issues has shown his character. I hate this is happening but he must be held accountable. The best thing for him to do to maintain respect for his position is to humbly step down with a repentant heart.
Mr. Spradlin has shown boldness and courage when most in his position would be afraid to speak. Dr. Dobson has correctly encouraged Mr. Spradlin and has spoken up as well.
BELLEVUE MEMBERS – I know this might seem intruding for a non-member to say this, but I truly want to encourage you to do one thing:
Through prayer and complete submission to Christ, ask that all your ties to the social and business benefits of being part of Bellevue be removed from your thought process long enough to objectively discern the leadership at your church. Ask yourself what your position would be if you were a member at a different church yet knew all the FACTS at Bellevue. STOP – please reread this paragraph again and take it seriously. I am not someone trying to just get a point across in a creative way. I truly want to encourage you to step back and truly evaluate this situation.
Before you get all worked up over that last paragraph let me say that I am by no means saying that all or even the majority of people going to Bellevue have those strong ties that cause distractions.
But you know who you are. You know if you are supporting the leadership simply because you would hate to loose your status in the church or would hate to loose your connections or power. Check your own heart on this.
One of my motivations for posting is that I am concerned with how we as Christians fall into the temptation of lowering God’s standards and then justify it by calling it “love”. We can love someone and call them to be accountable for their actions at the same time. We must never forget that.
I hope not to post again as I regret to use a BLOG to discuss such important and sensitive issues.
notashamedofchrist,
You said something I would like to repeat:
"We can love someone and call them to be accountable for their actions at the same time."
Absolutely! There seems to be an either/or mentality about this, but it is a both/and situation. Just like Jesus does with His followers - like I mentioned earlier, the Lord disciplines those He loves.
(and if we are proud (arrogant, self-righteous, etc.), He will humble us!)
Of course the blame will be shifted. It's already being shifted.
Haywood, Manning, NASS (because of the blog), bloggers, Spradlin, and even Pastor Rogers! (Just to name a few, of course.)
They are already blaming everybody else but those who are actually to blame!
Paul "Pedophile" Williams, Steve Gains, and ANYBODY else who knew about it, concealed it and didn't report it. This includes whoever didn't protect the victim to begin with!
Tim,
I have thought very highly of Mr. Sorrell as well. I remember a few instances where there were moral failures over the years. It was always sad, however Dr. Rogers & Bob Sorrell always handeled them in a biblical manner.
You know it occurs to me that many of the folks who are supporting the notion that truth is not important, are new to BBC, and do not know her rich heritage of integrity. Just a thought.
financeguy,
Well, whatever comes my direction. I have followed my convictions and in that I have done the right thing. Whether anyone else believes that it was right or not is irrelevant. I followed the direction that God led me.
Steve Gaines has broken the law at least twice since he has been the pastor at Bellevue.
Tonight officials all across Memphis Tennessee have confirmed that SG is a lawbreaker.
If the District Attorney decides to prosecute Steve Gaines, he coule get three months in jail or fined up to $25,000.00
He no longers meets the scriptural requirements to be a pastor.
These are the verifiable
facts and now there is no need to ever debate again whether Steve Gaines is a law breaker or not because he surely and positively is.
One thing that's starting to really get rediculous is the claim that the majority of the church is pro-Gaines.
IF that's true, it's not hard to imagine since everyone else has been run out!
Also, I highly doubt that. I would believe it more if it were closer to being equal on both sides.
But after the lastest attrocities, I would say that if a TRUE count were to be taken, Gaines would rue the day he allowed people to be polled.
Do you think a pastor is called by the Lord to be at a particular church (i.e. Steve Gaines - BBC)?
Or is it really just a job that someone has been given special skills to perform (i.e. accountant, engineer, etc.)?
I wonder what Dr. Spradlin's view on this is?
Has anyone looked at the possible connection between the effects of high dosages of prednisone & personality changes?
Someone from GFBC posted recently an observation about SG having changed about 5 years ago. He was diagnosed and began treatment for Myasthenia gravis in 2000 and he talked quite a bit about his prednisone medicine. I have been at GFBC for over 20 years. I was determined to outlast SG at GFBC.
Might be worth investigating...
Prednisone - Prednisone may cause euphoria, insomnia, mood changes, personality changes, psychotic behavior, or severe depression. It may worsen any existing emotional ...
www.healthsquare.com/newrx/cx1121b.htm - 35k - Cached - Similar pages
Oops, I misspelled ridiculous. =)
"I receive a lot of hate mail. I could only imagine what would happen if my name got out there. I prefer to stay physically safe as I am quite fragile like a little flower."
ace,
LOL..a little flower?...if I were a betting man I'd bet you're over 6' and probably 190-200 lbs.
Allofgrace,
LOL..a little flower?...if I were a betting man I'd bet you're over 6' and probably 190-200 lbs.
Yes, just like a little flower. ;)
allofgrace,
Did you hear the broadcast that Mrs. Rogers spoke on today?
In hell, one fallen angel speaking to another, “Watch what is going on in Memphis. A pastor of 35 years has confessed about a truly heinous act. The best part is now the Christians are pitted against each other, trying to tear the other side down even though none of them had anything to do with the first sin. Even their leaders are bashing each other in front of the world. This should keep any unbelievers from going over to the enemy, especially now only three days before their sacred holiday of Christmas. The best part is we do not have to do anything; they will take care of everything for us. Hope they don’t remember the adage, ‘If it wasn’t for Christians there would be more Christians’.”
tim,
No I didn't..I heard about it though. I hate that she had to contact a radio station to clear her husband's name.
NASS, fellow bloggers, lurkers, and other concerned Southern Baptist and Christians watching this, concerned about this conflict being broadcast around the city and world.
Someone gave me a word picture today. (You know who you are)
Most of us would agree that over time, our garages, once the perfect picture of organization, become disorganized, filled with trash and clutter, and become increasingly difficult places to work in.
We know there’s a problem, and “one day” I’ll get out there and clean it out. In the meantime, the tools get tangled, the cardboard boxes and newspaper rot, the fast food containers decay, and the old lumber and stuff collects dust, and with the humidity around here, mold grows everywhere.
Finally, the problem gets so bad; you have to deal with it. So, you open the garage door; haul everything out in the driveway, trash and all, where your neighbors walking by can see it.
Finally, you have a nice clean organized garage again, and over time, the neighbors forget the trash in your driveway, and see how you once again have a workshop that can be used the way it was originally intended, with everything in it’s place.
Bellevue, in this analogy, is the garage. For over 30 years the trash and clutter have piled up, yet we continue to work to keep the garage door shut, and figure that no matter what the problem, it’s more important that the neighbors think we have a “clean garage” than we are actually able to use the space to it’s full potential. Problem is, it’s known. The ‘neighbors’ have gotten glimpses of the mess over the years. How many people have had someone come up to you at work or school over the last 10-20 years and mention some “story” that they knew or heard about some problem at Bellevue? You probably felt the need to defend her, or somehow attack the people behind the “gossip”.
Like it or not, over the past several months, the garage door has been swung wide open, and the entire neighborhood is at the end of the driveway looking at the mess.
Now, the questions is, are we going to clean out the garage, or are we going to force the door shut again, and pronounce to the neighborhood that “you didn’t see what you just saw”? (Also get more mad at the people that opened the door than the people who made the mess in the first place, but I digress)
Dr Rogers stated vision for Bellevue was a “shining light on the hill”. Right now, we are far from that, but we can be even brighter when this is all over. It’s your choice, People of Bellevue.
It would be a terrible tragedy if Dr. Gaines were to be “forced out”, and the garage remains “cluttered”.
I am optimistic. I see the hand of God moving even today. Stay strong, Stay the course.
Bellevue used to have such a high regard in the community. If you said you went to bellevue the only thing some thought of as a negative was it was too big for them but thought it was a great church had a great pastor and did some much good for the community. Now we are all in the papers and the news. Spradlin and Dobson feel that Gaines has acted wrongly and should resign. People have lost the positive things they thought about bellevue because of this scandal surrounding our pastor. all the good our church does is far outweighed by this overwhelming negative publicity.
Nehemiah,
There is a problem with your thought. It isn't Biblical. Over half of the New Testament involve problems within the church so do you believe that it was inspired by the Holy Spirit or Satan.
allofgrace,
I am wanting to verify that Steve Gaines had personally denied her request to clarify that in the reference to past people he was not speaking of Dr. Rogers.
tim,
Yes I'd like to know exactly what happened about that myself.
financeguy,
that's a good analogy...food for thought.
HurtExBBCer said:
"You know it occurs to me that many of the folks who are supporting the notion that truth is not important, ARE NEW to BBC"
Housewife said:
"If that's true, it's not hard to imagine since EVERYONE ELSE HAS BEEN RUN OUT!"
Do you folks see a pattern developing here? Surely you don't think this is a coincidence. It is called securing a majority vote.
Tim,
Possibly conflict is referenced throughout the New Testament so frequently first by Paul and then Jesus in Revelation because God knew the ease we would fall into this trap of fighting each other. It was possibly His warning to us not to let it happen. Church, the people not the establishment, is the bride of Jesus. I hate to see it tarnished by people on all sides who love the Lord.
Nehemiah,
It is also there for our direction. I believe that the story that you were conveying might also hold true if one fallen angel told another, look the churches are involved in open sin and no one within the church even cares. We can take off for the holidays, there is no work for us to do within the church.
Tim,
I think you're on to something there...
"...look the churches are involved in open sin and no one within the church even cares."
That's what our enemy wants isn't?
Tim,
Dialog like this is much more edifying then having each blog insulting the next blog. Thanks for keeping the focus on glorifying the Lord. If we all focus on Him when posting comments Satan will be kept out.
I wish that I could stay up later, but I am wore out.
You guys have a nice evening.
Good night all...blessings
Like many others, I have been praying, sitting back, watching and listening for some time now. I am not currently "on a side" as my spouse puts it to me, but I am concerned as all seem to be. I have my opinions of course, my feelings, and I also have some questions. I'm of the opinion that anything I "hear" is just that, only what I've heard, until I have seen it, heard it or experienced it myself. I'm not saying that anyone with firsthand knowledge of things is not being honest, I'm just saying that I know there are always two sides to everything as far as a "story" goes. My feelings are, that I am very distraught about what is happening to my church. What hurts the most is to see that brothers and sisters in Christ that have been fellowshiping and worshiping together for years are now on "sides". My family has to make a decision, do we stay and wade through all the confusion that is going on or do we leave and look for another church home? I don't have an answer to that yet, but I do believe that the pulpit should be used for preaching and teaching and when I go to church, I want to go to worship and to fellowship, not to hear the latest about what's been going on. For those of you Veggie Tales folks it reminds me of the Rumor Weed Episode "Have You Heard The One About Alfred?" LOL :-) I'm not saying that I want to stick my head in the sand, but if issues need to be addressed I'd rather come at a separate specified time to hear them and not during worship.
Now for my questions some of which may have been asked and answered already but I haven't read every blog or article on the site.
1. There are statements made by some about issues such as the Pastor's salary being too much or it being changed after he came, where is the actual documentation that show's these things? Certain individuals seem to have so much inside information, surely there are copies of these things that could be scanned and put on the site.
2. I could be wrong on this, but from some of the things I've read on here, certain individuals besides the pastor knew about the molestation allegation before it was made public. If this is so, why was it OK for these people to keep silent for any period of time and not for the pastor? If ANYONE knows of a crime commited shouldn't it be reported to proper legal authority immediately? Didn't I read that a Bellevue staff minister counseled with this man years ago but is now retired? If this is true, doesn't the first break in the link lie there?
3. If our church is an elderled church and there are a few chosen ones that are running it for their own financial or self serving gain, where's the actual documentation to prove this? I understand that some men in leadership positions have business dealings with one another but isn't that natural for people that have been closely linked for years? What I mean is, if we meet a Christian brother or sister at church don't we sometimes end up in their office or store or place of business because we know them from church?
4. So far our pastor has shown that he's had some poor judgement and made some mistakes. Ok, who here hasn't? Didn't Jesus say let him who is without sin cast the first stone? I can't help but to compare what our pastor does in leadership of the church to what goes on in a marriage. Husband and wife work together to glorify God right? Well, if the the husband makes some poor decisions, be it financially or whatever, does the wife have the option of telling her husband to step down from being her huband because he makes mistakes? You might say, well the pastor has made too many mistakes. Hmmm, how many does the grace of God and Jesus' blood cover? The pastor has apologized for some things and yet I don't see the apology being accepted because he didn't phrase it right.
5. Anyone that speaks in public, or even on this forum, is subject to having every word analyzed from top to bottom. That's a tough spot to be in. I wouldn't want it. Although I realize this message will be analyzed. So what's up with the magnifying glass? I'm sure if it were used on me there would be things to point out about me that aren't Christian Like. We are to strive to be like Christ, but as we all know, there was and is only one sinless person and that is Jesus himself.
6. Is there an actual petition that could be started or is already in progress to request a congregational meeting with an open platform and a possible chance for the members to take a vote on the issue of resignation? I mean a true petition with real names, addresses and phone numbers.
I praise God that Jesus died for me and my sins, past, present and future. And I pray for the future of my church, the leaders, the congregation and all. And I pray for all of those that are confused, concerned and hurting right now.
Paul Williams needs to resign immediately on his own. If he does not tender his resignation by noon today, his "administrative leave with pay" needs to be terminated, along with his employment at Bellevue, by 2 p.m. by our Pastor.
Those who have information to contribute to an investigation of child molestation need to make two calls, and in this order: 1) The first call should be made to DCS, registering all information you know with the legal authorities who are handling this matter. 2) Your second call should be to the church's internal investigation committee, the one being led by David Coombs and others. You should then carefully document your information in writing and send it by certified mail to DCS, our Pastor, and David Coombs, clearly indicating that you are copying all the above individuals. By doing the above steps, transparency will take place and a documentation trail will be established to assure that all parties have been given the same information.
I appreciate so much Mrs. Rogers' statements on Mike Fleming's program, though I truly regret that she had to make them.
I do still have one question, though. Was PW lying to Bro. Steve when he claimed that someone on staff had known about this incident at the time it happened 17 years ago, and that he had been receiving counseling through our own Biblical guidance staff for his issues? If he was not lying, and we know the person in question was not Dr. Rogers, then who knew and failed to act then? Does anyone know the answer to this question? Can that answer be posted here?
If anyone knew, I'm sure it would be.
Mrs. Rogers was on the Mike Flemming show yesterday and she spoke to defend her husbands' integrity and reputation. She herself stated she requested them to made it clear her husband had no knowledge of this and THEY REFUSED. She also said PW himself told her that Adrian knew nothing of this.
I was horrified to hear of the leaderships refusal to honor her request. It seems like there must be some animosity there against the Rogers.
Ace said,
... I prefer to stay physically safe as I am quite fragile like a little flower.
10:52 PM, December 21, 2006
Reply:
Ace, are you Donna Gaines? When Steve was preaching one of his first sermons as our pastor,he used that illustration to describe Donna and his daughters. When he was too confrontational with them, they 'closed up like a little flowers'.
I have the recording of Mrs. Roger's call to Mike's show last night. What is email address for the site admin of the savingbellevue.com website and this blog administrator.
I am a Bellevue member of about 10yrs and am active in the church, bible fellowship and a regular tither. As I have followed this saga over the past months, I have had mixed emotions concerning it. I have friends and family on both sides of the issue.
Here are a couple of observations from someone who is NOT super emotional about the happenings. I say this because I believe Christ is in control and all this will pass at some point.
First, I think some serious mistakes have been made by the leadership of the church, from SG on down the line. I think Gaines has a lot of work to do to mend this Church family if he is to remain in his current position. However, I don't think anything has transpired that cannot be corrected. All these mistakes have been well documented. I won't rehash them.
That brings me to my second observation. I watched the news interview with Josh Manning this week. I'll have to say that, any respect I may have had for him has dissapated. I am a pretty good judge of people and there was simply too much oportunism contained in his message to the reporter. In my view, he is merely a self-serving antagonist to SG and the Bellevue leadership and feels it necessary to magnify any negativity he can at every opportunity. How many of us would want a person like that following us around looking for opportunities to trash us whenever possible? The term Pharisee comes to mind....
I think far too many people are concerned with discipline, accountability, being a watchdog, etc... The question I would ask is, are you expending as much energy trying to save the lost as you are trying to push your agenda of getting SG to resign?
Sent to both site admins and to a couple of other people. Who were asking.
Notonaside said,
1. There are statements made by some about issues such as the Pastor's salary being too much or it being changed after he came, where is the actual documentation that show's these things?
Craig Parker who was the head of the finance department at BBC verified this allegation. David Purdue verified this. Harry Smith in front of the church verified this. If you were not there to hear it doesn't change the truth. Do you not have a problem with your church not letting you know what the pastor makes? Every church I've ever been a member of has do so. Check with your friends around Memphis in Baptist churches and you will find that salaries are not hidden.
you also said,
2. I could be wrong on this, but from some of the things I've read on here, certain individuals besides the pastor knew about the molestation allegation before it was made public. If this is so, why was it OK for these people to keep silent for any period of time and not for the pastor? If ANYONE knows of a crime commited shouldn't it be reported to proper legal authority immediately? Didn't I read that a Bellevue staff minister counseled with this man years ago but is now retired? If this is true, doesn't the first break in the link lie there?
You are correct that is appears that there were others inside the church that may have known about Paul Williams much earlier this year. As far as a retired person at Bellevue, I'd check with Bob Sorrell. He's one of the few that was around 17 years ago that may know something. He's been very quiet on these issues but I heard he denied being involved in the cover up.
you also said,
3. If our church is an elderled church and there are a few chosen ones that are running it for their own financial or self serving gain, where's the actual documentation to prove this? I understand that some men in leadership positions have business dealings with one another but isn't that natural for people that have been closely linked for years? What I mean is, if we meet a Christian brother or sister at church don't we sometimes end up in their office or store or place of business because we know them from church?
All you have to do is go back the last 5 years and look at the same group of about 10 men who have all been the same chairmen of the finance committee, deacon selection committee, pastor development committee, long range committee, etc. You can find this in the committee books on some of these committeess and the others are just hand picked without the church ever voting on them. John Caldwill for instance has been the man in charge of whether a man can be a deacon or not for 10 years.
you said,
4. So far our pastor has shown that he's had some poor judgement and made some mistakes. Ok, who here hasn't? Didn't Jesus say let him who is without sin cast the first stone? I can't help but to compare what our pastor does in leadership of the church to what goes on in a marriage. Husband and wife work together to glorify God right? Well, if the the husband makes some poor decisions, be it financially or whatever, does the wife have the option of telling her husband to step down from being her huband because he makes mistakes? You might say, well the pastor has made too many mistakes. Hmmm, how many does the grace of God and Jesus' blood cover? The pastor has apologized for some things and yet I don't see the apology being accepted because he didn't phrase it right.
You seem to not have much regard for the qualifications of a pastor. This pastor has made a lot of error in judgement. Appologies have been offered many times well after the offense had been made and only because he was publicly exposed by this blog. I praise God for this blog. We have a right as members to know what is going on. Our pastor has not told the truth on numerous occasions, he's now broken the law at least twice, he's a lover of money (if you need references blog back), he's given away large amounts of the churches money on several occasions without the vote of the church (seminary in New Orleans $250,000 and First United Methodist Church $25,000), he's threatened the staff with firing as he was going to check their tithe with their paystub. The list could go on longer if you need more. All of these are documented and staff have verified over and over. If you haven't read all of the information available do so if you are interested in knowing the truth. The truth remains whether anyone believes it or not.
The internet site is a wonderful tool to expose and hold these men accountable. I would not know of these things if it weren't for this freedom of information. The question you need to ask yourself is why didn't the leadership allow a meeting to discuss these issues? Why did the communications committee not answer 70% of the questions that were asked? Why won't the church leadership be open and transparent? If the pastor's salary package isn't over $400,000, why don't they just prove it by making the financial decisions public? The answers to your questions really lie with the leadership of the church. Why do you think all of the staff members to date have left since Steve Gaines arrived?
These questions you raise are very good ones and they deserve an answer but I'm afraid you are asking the wrong people. The answers need to come from the leaders.
I pray for our church as we seek the truth out in these matters. Only when the truth comes out and we get back to being open and honest with each other will be have healing. God bless you as you struggle with these issues. For me, I've seen enough.
Dr. Spradlin should have gone to SG privately to ask him to resign. See my comments on http://oesmolly.blogspot.com
As an MABTS Alumni I am disgusted with Dr. Spradlin and the way he handled this situation.
hifriend,
Did you read Dr Spradlin's response yesterday? He had no intention of asking for SG's resignation and he didn't do such. The reporter applied Dr Spradlin's comment to a hypothetical question to the SG situation. Even so Dr. Spradlin is very correct to standby his logic and statement. You should be proud of him.
FinanceGuy said...
Hifriend said...
Dr. Spradlin should have gone to SG privately to ask him to resign
Well, apparently Dr. Dobson and other Baptist leaders disagree with you. Go read Dr. Spradlin's letter on the MABTS website.
Also listen to John McArthur's broadcast today. Its Christmas story related, but he talks extensively about the corruption of the religious leaders of that day, mentioning specifically Jesus cleansing the temple (with "violence") of the money changers.
If you are sincere in your feelings, I can only assume that you would have been "disgusted" with Jesus actions, and would have suggested that he go privately to the chief priest and ask that he resign and/or stop the money changing operations going on, instead of acting like a bull in a china shop.
Dr. Spradlin had to speak out. Anything else would have been dishonest to his students.
Hifriend said...
Dr. Spradlin should have gone to SG privately to ask him to resign.
HIfriend
DId you go to Dr Spranlin to tell him that you had a problem with the way he addressed this with SG?
If not, please tell why you didn`t.
Would someone please post Dr.Dobson`s comments and Dr. SPradlin`s clarification state,emt as I can not open the link.
bmwtt,
I think someone posted the Spradlin letter in one of the threads over one of the several recent threads.
FInanceguy
I will search for it but in the meantime can you tell me what he said please.
Mike Spradlin said Dr. Dobson called him to offer support of his stance. I don't think there has been an official statement posted anywhere by Dr. Dobson or Focus on the Family. This was simply Dr. Spradlin's statement in his own response to the Commercial Appeal's reporter's tactics which were seemingly used to trick him into becoming "tomorrow's headline."
As a mabts alumnus of some years ago, and a former BBC member, I applaud Spradlin for standing by his response to the generic scenario presented to him by the CA reporter. How else could he have responded than with the principle he expects the faculty and students of the seminary to hold?
The series of mistakes, errors in judgment, and missteps by BBC leaders and staff is appalling.
What do you mean by saying the reporter was trying to trick Dr. Spradlin?
junior 5432 said...
Thank You
I am so upset today. I want to share a little of my heart with whoever might want to listen. Now, where do I start? I started attending Bellevue when I was 16 years old- I didn't grow up in church and the few times I went as a child, I really didn't understand what the preachers were talking about. Then I heard Dr. Rogers. For the first time, the Bible made sense- and he taught me how it applied to my life. Fast forward a few years- my husband and I were married at Bellevue. Fast forward- we joined Bellevue, I was baptized, we had children, dedicated them to the Lord, grew in our relationship with each other while we grew in our relationship with God. (By the way, the fast forwards were times when we weren't walking with God) All this to say that Bellevue means the world to us. The friends we made in our young married sunday school class are still dear to us-- 15+ years later. Even though we don't live in Memphis any more, both of our families (parents) are still there. One side had what some have termed "a check in their spirit" about Steve Gaines from the very beginning. The other side, wasn't sure but they liked his preaching. Personally, I (from afar) didn't think that what I was hearing about Steve Gaines was true. I talked to friends who told me that the changes were good, Bellevue was growing, preaching was awesome. A few months ago a minister at my church came to me and asked me about the goings on at Bellevue. I told him that I didn't believe all the negative stuff, I felt like God was blessing Bellevue and that it was more about some of the older members not being happy with music, etc. Sadly, I had to go back to him within a couple of weeks and tell him that I was afraid I had been wrong. Since then, I have been privy to information usually before it surfaces on this blog. I have not only been sick to my stomach but have shed many tears. All that to say, I am devastated that this situation is beginning to tear apart our family. The one side still has their head buried DEEP in the sand. The recent events and Dr. Mike Spradlin's response (Praise God for his courage) is what realy has me torn up. Part of our family is so mad at him- said they had lost respect for him-. My husband and I don't completely agree about all of this. I want my husband to be a man that will stand up in the face of the enemy, regardless of what the consequences are. No offense but I am so glad that we are not there. I just can't imagine what you all are going through. Some days I wish I could bury my head in the sand and get away from all this. Please, don't tell me that I am not a member so I should stay out of it. This is tearing my family apart whether I am physically there or not. If anyone has spent the time to read this, May God Bless you and your family! I am praying for you all.
cjesusnme,
I have a hard time with some people's claims of lawbreaking. I tend to drive a few mph above the speed limit and I know that I am technically breaking the law, but I would just chuckle at someone for pointing that infraction out to me. I also have walked onto property and jumped a fence or two to look at properties for sale and whatnot and I assume that I could be brought up on trespassing charges, but I don't think it would be vigorously pursued by law enforcement. In those situations, as with SG, I don't feel like the intent was there for someone to make a case for arrest.
SG's actions have been well documented and if the proper authorities deemed it necessary to charge him, I feel like they would have done it by now. Why do you feel that you are responsible to carry that torch? Why do you allow yourself to become so emotional about it?
As for your comments about JM, I have formed my stated opinion about him after watching his actions and listening to his words for several months. I don't believe he has anyone but himself and his agenda in mind with his relentless pursuit of damaging the reputation of SG. Jim Haywood has been a very effective tool for him throught this ordeal.
As for my anger, I have none as it pertains to this. Your perception that I do comes from your own emotion/anger that veils what you read and hear. It comes through fairly strongly in your comments.
Here you are my friends.
http://www.filecrunch.com/file/~ihwy7y
bws said
I know that I am technically breaking the law, but I would just chuckle at someone for pointing that infraction out to me. I also have walked onto property and jumped a fence or two to look at properties for sale and whatnot and I assume that I could be brought up on trespassing charges, but I don't think it would be vigorously pursued by law enforcement.
There you go folks. Could there be a more clear example that we are at the end of a 50 year+ push by "them" to move our culture toward moral relativism? "i'm not so bad am I? "This is a primary plank in the Rick Warren/emergant church movement. Down play what's right and wrong, as long as we all agree that Jesus lives in Heaven.
(a very disgusted and saddened FG, who is also a sinner like the lawbreaker quoted above)
I read Dr. Spradlin`s statement and the scripture "Open my mouth, and I shall fill it" comes to mind!
I believe that the Lord was directing this and that the time had come for those words to be spoken before the world.
FG,
Quite a stretch to acquaint moral relativism with speeding...
I am sorry you are saddened and disgusted...
scmom
This is tearing my family apart whether I am physically there or not.
This is tearing many families in the church apart. And Dr. Gaines is either unaware or doesn't seem very concerned about it. I would think if he truely cared about his flock, and his presence was tearing it apart, he would do the honorable thing and step down.
But to quote our friend Ace, "A'int gonna happen".
Bless Me with the Truth said,
"Open my mouth, and I shall fill it."
Please...I'd like you to refer me to this in the Bible. There are times, I would like to reference this. Blessings...
If the other link isn't working to well.
http://www.gigasize.com/get.php/249399/MrsRogers.mp3
Psalm 81:10 (New King James Version)
10 I am the LORD your God,
Who brought you out of the land of Egypt;
Open your mouth wide, and I will fill it.
Let`s see how this goes finacneguy
Someone comes here and reads that Steve Gaines is a lawbreaker.
They defend SG by saying WHERE IS THE PROOF!! HE NEVER BROKE THE LAW!
We tell them the truth and give them the proof.
They don`t trust what we say so they defend SG by saying THAT JUST WHAT YOU SAY.
Then we post evidence showing that we are telling the TRUTH.
They defend SG by saying what we share is GOSSIPP!
We enoourage them to go and find out the facts on their own.
They say the BURDEN OF PROOF is on us.
Aftet we endure their name calling, we continue our STAND ON TRUTH.
Then the media brings the TRUTH.
We use that as more evidence of being TRUTH TELLERS.
They defend SG by changing the definition of words and twisting the scriptures.
Is that about how it goes?
Michael Reagan Calls On Mega-Pastor To Resign.
For the second time this week, Michael Reagan, eldest son of President Ronald Reagan, is speaking out on his national radio program about the controversy taking place at Bellevue Baptist Church in Memphis, TN. Mike is more than qualified to speak to this issue. At the age of eight, Mike was repeatedly molested by a day camp leader. Today, Mike uses his national voice to speak out about many issues facing our nation including the growing epidemic of child sexual abuse. Listen to these two clips from Mike's Tuesday night, December 19th radio program. These two clips are a total of nine minutes long.
Mike calls on Pastor Steve Gaines to resign now. Mike also shares an e-mail from a Bellevue member that describes her experience as "spiritual rape"
http://www.worldviewweekend.com
bws,
Not quite a stretch to acquaint your attitude of "it's okay to break laws as long as they are little, or you have a good reason"
btw, I currently am holding a piece of paper given to me by an MPD officer where he disagrees very strongly with your statement. It's going to cost me $137. And that was just for a few miles (7mph) over the 40MPH speed limit.
Ima,
That's Psalm 81.10.
And just for the sake of review, let me repeat a verse I posted yesterday:
1 Tim 5.20
As for those who persist in sin, rebuke them in the presence of all, so that the rest may stand in fear.
Looks like Paul encouraged some public rebuke here...
And as some of you have mentioned, Dr. Rogers did the same thing years back when a staff member was engaging in adultery.
Just some food for thought this morning...
bws,
Your attitude about winking at the indiscretions of Steve Gaines reminds me of the liberals defending Bill Clinton while he was in office. This attitude of liberalism is why his wife Hillary is actually a serious contender for becoming president of the U.S.
I'm afraid what we are seeing here folks in bws, is liberalism that has crept into Bellevue Baptist Church. This leberalism is in Steve Gaines and his men that surround him. In fact, many on staff have crossed the line into this liberalism in the church.
It's a sad day when we stop holding our pastor and leaders accountable. Does the word integrity mean anything today? We are talking about a minister. We are talking about Holy things here. We are talking about the Word of God. Doesn't that mean anything anymore?
Our beloved Bellevue is in danger of turning into something nobody will recognize in another year or two if we don't take it back.
bws, I'm not going away. Steve Gaines and anyone else involved in his strategy to continue Bellevue down the road of liberalism better be prepared for a marathon.
I will not go away. If I'm the only one standing, I will not go away. May God continue to cleanse His church.
bmwtt,
"the blind can't see no matter how bright the light"
cj,
Harboring a child molestor? You make it sound as if PW had gone through a trial, been placed in jail and was on the run, wanted by authorities and that SG was providing a hideout for him in a tucked away closet at the church. GIVE ME A BREAK! Can you step out of your cloud for a minute and possibly see that the revelation that something happened 17yrs ago and along with that counseling for extended periods, not to mention the fact that SG is new in his position and PW had been on staff at Bellevue during the past 17yrs and many years before, could possibly have led to SG making the mistake of maintaining confidentiality of this meeting? You are ready to pull the executioner's switch at all times. All you need is to hear something that can be interpretted in your favor....opportunitsic to say the least.
Having said that, I do agree that this was a huge error in judgement. I would not have handled it that way, nor would most people. I am not absolving SG for that, but again, I don't think his intent was criminal.
I have a child as well, so I am not insensitive to your comments about our children's safety. I am not naive enough to think that everyone my child comes in contact with at Bellevue or anywhere else is beyond reproach.
Likewise, I too have been counseled by Paul Williams and had concerns about his effectiveness and the scope of his questions and statements to me and my wife.
Again, I think all the emotion and anger here are counterproductive. Cooler heads need to prevail, otherwise more and more damage will be heaped on the pile.
Again, a charge of opportunism has arisen regarding the interview the other day.
Since apparently we've got people who don't read back posts, I'll try this again. There's absolutely payoff for me to appear on Memphis TV. My career options and education almost inevitably direct me to New England, DC, or Europe. Why in heaven's name I'd need to make a name for myself in Memphis is just beyond me since I don't plan to work here. This is so utterly confusing. I don't like the limelight, but I'm willing to put my dislike for it away when it comes to Truth. But as we all know, anyone who actually speaks out is opportunistic about it--kinda like, oh, the prophets, apostles, Jesus, etc. Yeah, they were such opportunists. Also, I guess abolitionists should never have spoken out about the injustices done so many because their speaking out would have put them in the spotlight which obviously means they were in it for personal gain. Does anyone else see the absurdity of this argument?
As far as my being pharisaical, well, I'd fail utterly if I were. If we had the opportunity to meet, you'd realize that that charge couldn't be farther from accurate. I'm probably gentler regarding sin than most in the SBC. Pharisees would blow a gasket witnessing to and loving the people who are my ministry. Also, definitionally, pharisees held people to "laws" that they shouldn't have been held to--they were also very prideful about their holiness. I've no pride in my holiness because I don't have any. I can only boast in Christ and Him crucified for me. As for my holding people to the law, there are scriptures that say we should obey God's laws and man's. Gaines has done neither. He harbored a child molester which is against man's law. He has lied to the membership of the church which breaks God's law. He has intimidated members and other ministers which is against God's law and I suspect Tennessee's law as well. And the man refuses to repent of these things until he's caught. That's not the profile of someone I'd want being my pastor, friend, or confidant.
But, on the more entertaining side, I like the fact that while Dr Gaines broke the law by harboring a child rapist, some of you choose to attack my non-existent motives for personal gain and then call me a pharisee. Priorities folks. Priorities.
bws
I don't think his intent was criminal.
I'm not sure that what SG did was a "specific intent" crime.
You lawyers out there know what I'm talking about.
Basically bws, his intent doesn't matter. Only the fact that the law was broken.
It's really starting to tick me off that people aren't concerned about the victim. Only about "poor Paul" and "poor Steve".
Some more food for thought this morning:
1 Peter 3:17
It is better, if it is God's will, to suffer for doing good than for doing evil.
FinanceGuy,
What is your problem? I mean, come on. You know you do have one, don't you? It's called putting words in other people's mouths.
You said: Not quite a stretch to acquaint your attitude of "it's okay to break laws as long as they are little, or you have a good reason"
Nobody every suggested this except for yourself. So don't go saying this is what anybody means because nobody means that and you know it.
btw, I currently am holding a piece of paper given to me by an MPD officer where he disagrees very strongly with your statement.
Uhm, excuse me? It was your statement, not anyone else's....
It's going to cost me $137. And that was just for a few miles (7mph) over the 40MPH speed limit.
Aww...you poor thing. Would a cookie make things better? (kidding, just trying to lighten up the mood)
cJesus,
Thanks for your sweet post. I'm struck by the lack of priorities here. For everything from worries about selfish motivation to saving the lost instead of working for Truth.
Dr Rogers spent an incredibly amount of energy fighting for Truth, but seeing the responses of some of our brothers and sisters who sat under him, it appears they would ask him to have not fought for the Truth and instead focused on evangelism. Which poses the question, if we are evangelizing when we won't stand for truth, what exactly are we evangelizing people into? Sounds like we'd be evangelizing them into any typical, dead, American church these days. I didn't realize we had so many closet dead-churchers at BBC.
Again, thank you for the help while I was away. I'm in and out for the next week as far as the blog goes, so who knows when I'll get to post. cJesus, you're great. =)
Josh the fuzzball
Josh,
I can tell that your speaking out for the right reasons. For that I respect you. While on some things I may have disagreements, I think we all have a common interest, the future of Bellevue.
FG, you are right. It is so easy to forget that a child was sodomized. I can think of few (or no) things that are more devastating to a child.
This is different than, say, if PW was unfaithful to his wife once (that's not ok either, don't misunderstand me), but we are talking sexual deviancy with a child. And research does indicate that for every child that speaks up (even later as an adult), many more children are victims in hiding.
Internal Tithing Service
Thank you for taking time to read and respond to my post.
I'm still confused about something in particular. With the following being the case: "All you have to do is go back the last 5 years and look at the same group of about 10 men who have all been the same chairmen of the finance committee, deacon selection committee, pastor development committee, long range committee, etc. You can find this in the committee books on some of these committeess and the others are just hand picked without the church ever voting on them. John Caldwill for instance has been the man in charge of whether a man can be a deacon or not for 10 years."
These men were put in place, or allowed to be in place before our current pastor came. If there is a self serving plan that these men have and the pastor is part of it, wouldn't that mean that he's been scheming for years to get in this position, or these men have been scheming for years and just now have the opportunity to act? Who put these men in place to begin with and did their character not show potential for this situation long ago or did they change over night when the new pastor came?
Josh,
There's absolutely payoff for me to appear on Memphis TV.
You might want to correct this statement otherwise people like me will have a field day with this quote. ;) I think you meant to say something different, so if you did, now is the time to correct yourself before people start quoting that.
Bws,
Harboring a child molestor? You make it sound as if PW had gone through a trial, been placed in jail and was on the run, wanted by authorities and that SG was providing a hideout for him in a tucked away closet at the church.
Ha, I was thinking this same thing. I was wondering where Gaines was hiding him...on the fourth floor? in the bus barns? in a secret closet?
ju,
Thanks for posting the link. I had to hear that for myself before I could accept it and believe it.
I have a lot more to say about this, but cannot express myself properly about this at the moment, other than to say that the men that are responsible for this are cowards.
Of course, if it is allowed to go uncontested then we are greater cowards.
I think you are correct. SG's initial intent in keeping the conversation confidential is no longer of import. It is plainly stated as fact as having happened and why it happened is no longer of consequence. However, the repercussions of that specific action is of continuing import not only to BBC but now to law enforcement as well as many around the country as we've seen.
Here is some truth for you.
Six months ago Steve Gaines listened as Paul Williams confessed his rape and sodomy to him.
He decided to bless Paul by keeping his sex crime quiet.
He also believed Paul Willaims when he said he has never done it since.
That day Paul was released of the burden he had hidden from SG and he was also released by Steve Gaines to roam the halls of Bellevue at will.
He has always had the opportunity to rape again, that goes without question, but SG was in a position to hold him accountable the day he confessed his sex crime to him and he choose not to.
Now he roamed the halls of Bellevue knowing that he was not being held accountable. This could have easily embolden his passions.
From the day Paul confessed his sex crime to SG our children were in more danger than they ever had been before because Paul was given the taught by SG that it can be a secret sin.
SG did Paul Williams a great injustice by not reporting him to the officials while supporting him with all the help he could offer.
SG did his church a great injustice by keeping Paul`s sex crime a secret and allowing him to have access to every child at Bellevue.
I pray no one find a secret closet at Bellevue that reveals more than we already know but I am afraid it is just around the corner.
Notonaside,
It's been said from the pulpit by Dr Rogers that he knew LONG before SG was called to BBC that he would be the man for BBC. It is not outside the realm of possibility that SG would have felt that as some point he would end up at BBC. So take that as you may but plans for anything could have been bouncing around his head for many years.
BTW if you hadn't seen it here before Dr Rogers also made the statement to the Whitmire's that he felt they were deceived after SG came.
Is anyone else amused that just a few weeks before it came out that Dr Gaines has harbored a child rapist, Dr Gaines tried to have the deacons sign a loyalty pledge to him? Could this not be an amazingly terrible way to force deacon support in case the truth came out (which it has and is)? I wondered why in the world a pastor would need such a document. Now it's perfectly clear! And he tried to play the deacons for fools. Thankfully a huge number of them refused to take the bait.
custos,
Thank God for people like you and Jim Haywood who are willing to publicly call a wrong a wrong unashamidly so.
You are not pharisiacal. You are more like a prophet. Steve Gaines and company are pharisiacal. They say anyone calling their actions wrong should shut up, get lost, and let God handle it.
I wonder why Steve Gaines doesn't take the same approach when it comes to tithing. As you can see by my name, Steve Gaines ticked me off (http://www.youtube.com/user/saveingbellevue) when he's publicly and on tape talked about checking the tithes of people and then threatening them if they don't. Tithing is between the person and God. Why doesnt' he practice what he preaches and let God handle it?
It's because he wants his hands on the money. If the money isn't flowing in, he can't have his bodacious salary and spending liberties with church money.
Josh, I pray you don't go away. We need people like you to help save Bellevue from leberalism.
custos,
Have you listened to the link to the radio show?
And I honestly think that a large number of them refused to sign that document because of this very blog. Because of the Godly men and women that reminded them of their obligations to the church and God and not SG. We know some deacons watch this blog. So what was said here surely must have been the catalyst to at least some of them not signing.
It seems like some people are upset because they believe SG is being attacked. Just a few observations...
First of all, whoever knew about PW's abuse of his son should have reported it immediately - there are no good excuses for not doing this, and for those who failed to report this abuse, they failed his son.
Second, one of the reason's that the attention is on SG is because he is a PASTOR. What is the role of a pastor? A shepherd to the sheep right? One who seeks to protect the sheep... herein lies the problem -- sure, those others (whoever they are) also need to be held accountable, but whether we like it or not, pastors are held to a higher standard (which is also why some will so blindly follow a pastor without question).
I think as well that when all is right with the spirit that myself as a God fearing church member should be able to blindly follow my Pastor. I should not be burdened by the thoughts that he could have hidden sin in his life. If he is an integrity filled man of God I will see that and follow him to the ends of the earth. When SG's actions do not portray him to be integrity filled then what we have left is that he claims to be God's man. I have my doubts which is why my family can't sit under his authority.
BWS said:
Harboring a child molestor? You make it sound as if PW had gone through a trial, been placed in jail and was on the run, wanted by authorities and that SG was providing a hideout for him in a tucked away closet at the church. GIVE ME A BREAK! Can you step out of your cloud for a minute and possibly see [...blah blah blah some stuff in the middle...] Having said that, I do agree that this was a huge error in judgement. I would not have handled it that way, nor would most people.
Ummm... ok? Interesting thought process you've got going there.
I also have walked onto property and jumped a fence or two to look at properties for sale and whatnot and I assume that I could be brought up on trespassing charges, but I don't think it would be vigorously pursued by law enforcement. In those situations, as with SG, I don't feel like the intent was there for someone to make a case for arrest.
Again, more evidence of moral relativism. Apparently you don't think the law should apply equally to all? It's more up to them to see what fits their schedule and sentiments? "No trespassing" means "no trespassing unless you're a nice guy who's just looking at property for sale and don't think this should apply to you"?
Trying really hard to understand...
Bellevue Friend
Don't forget the great scandal where Dr. Pollard would smoke a cigar now and then, and his wife wore a fur coat.
OH! if that were the scandal we had now, and the most we could talk about Dr. Spradlin is what he wore to the athletic fields!
Has anyone given any thought to the fact that PW waited until Dr Rogers was gone to confess this sin to the Senior Pastor of BBC? Was it because in SG he saw a man that he thought he could deal with? That would be lenient on him? Possibly allow him to stay in his position? Interesting to think about. We are well aware of what would have happened to the man if he had done this during Dr Rogers term.
Perhaps I'm being redundant or naive, but I still ask the question, What about a good old fashioned petition, in writing, with names and addresses and phone numbers of our church members? In this day and age there should be a way to set up a meeting for members to come and sign this without it having to be at the church or approved by the church. If our church is truly split and half the congregation has left or is unhappy, and you get an actual petition in front of the media, wouldn't that hold alot of weight?
I asked this question late last night and got no response. It may have too late, so I'll ask it again.
I've always wondered what most people think about this issue -
Do you think the Lord 'calls' a pastor to a church or does the church select the pastor it wants to lead them?
Is being a pastor a 'calling' or a job where one looks for advancement, higher pay, etc.?
grs198grs wrote:
"Do you think the Lord 'calls' a pastor to a church or does the church select the pastor it wants to lead them?
"Is being a pastor a 'calling' or a job where one looks for advancement, higher pay, etc.?"
I don't think you can say it's the same for all churches or all pastors. Surely there have been many pastors who were called by God, but there have no doubt been a lot who were lured by the power, money, and potential fame that accompanied the position. Certainly pastor search committees, for whatever reasons, sometimes have "agendas." I imagine in more than a few cases that while it was a true calling in the beginning, the power and money that came later "went to the head" and it became a very lucrative job. As they say, "Power tends to corrupt; absolute power corrupts absolutely."
Dgrs198grs said...
Do you think the Lord 'calls' a pastor to a church or does the church select the pastor it wants to lead them?
Is being a pastor a 'calling' or a job where one looks for advancement, higher pay, etc.?
I think it's a good question worth looking at. When the Holy Spirit is free to work, I think a church calls the right man and the right man is led to the church. If the church is not ready spiritually, I think a church can select a man to fit their needs thus ending up with the wrong man.
It's always been intersting to me that it's rare that a pastor is called to a smaller church with a smaller salary.
Almost always, a pastor seems to be called to a larger church with a larger salary.
Did Steve Gaines have his eyes on more money (more tithers) and advancement in the Southern Baptist Convention? Some of the early statements made by him may lead someone to think so.
God has allowed a lot of leaders to rule thru history that have been poor leaders.
Was Bellevue ready for a new pastor? Looking back, I'm not sure we were looking for God's man.
I've heard a lot of people claim that Steve Gaines was Dr. Rogers man. I loved Dr. Rogers but I wasn't praying that we get a man's request. I was praying that God bring His man to us. If Dr. Rogers were here today, I don't think we would be having this discussion about Steve Gaines. Dr. Rogers would have been quick to call it like it is and deal with it.
Just some thoughts to ponder!
Bereans said...
Does it seem to anyone else that BBC church services have become a one-sided pep rally to show support for Steve Gaines?
The Gaines supporters jump up and clap and cheer on que while the other side is forced to sit in silence lest we be accused of disrupting the service.
I'm really tired of sitting silently at someone else's pep rally.
7:08 AM, December 22, 2006
I know how you feel - I REALLY wanted to shout out "what about PW's son!! Is anyone going to stand up for him?" But I didn't - I did sit during the ovations though.
Someone mentioned it before, but it was REALLY weird seeing Steve Gaines stand behind the pulpit on Wednesday night - just making an observation, not trying to start a fight.
Karen
bws,
I'm not advocating violence, but in some parts of this town if you hop, climb or scale a fence that has a "NO TRESPASSING" sign on it, you may find yourself with a hiney full of buckshot (or a bullet between the eyes). If you are TRESPASSING, you are breaking the law and ain't no police that I know of that will be sympathtic to your buckshotted hiney.
Your argument about going over the speed limit: That's sin too - I'm guilty as the next person. If you get caught by the police, do they not issue a ticket for your breaking of the law?
Why is Steve Gaines immune to being called a lawbreaker? I know he thinks Matthew 18 doesn't apply to him. Surely he doesn't think he's above the law? I hope not since he's broken another law (THIS IS A BIGGIE!) by not reporting abuse. I think DFS should look into Bryan Miller's role in not reporting the abuse. As an educator of children, I'd be wary of his leadership of ECS.
karen
He said that the reporter was wanting info concerning MABTS and he just added the Bellevue problems. As I read the Cammercial Appeal, Dr. Spradlin said more than just a few comments. Therer were 6 paragraphs saying that Gaines should resign and the reason for his resignation. As an Alumni of MABTS I am disgusted with Dr. Spradlin getting involved publicly with this situation. This should have been a private matter between Gaines and Dr. Spradlin. Should the situation with Williams been handled differently by Gaines? Yes! But the comments by Dr. Spradlin to the CA was uncalled for. He should have gone to him in his office and asked him to resign if that is what Dr. Spradlin wanted him to do. And then to wash it over by saying I only made a few comments to the CA and spoke more about MABTS. Maybe so, but the reporter gave more info about Bellevue than MABTS. And you should have known the outcome. You slandered a brother publicly and you need to ask forgiveness publicly. http://oesmolly.blogspot.com
hifriend,
How do you know that this conversation didn't happen between Spradlin and Gaines?
We don't know - that's my point.
Even if that conversation didn't happen, no slander has occured here. Spradlin only addressed what Gaines spoke with his own mouth from the pulpit. Slander is an awfully big charge for you to throw out there. (And if it's not true, it sounds an awful lot like bearing false witness against your neighbor).
hifriend
But the comments by Dr. Spradlin to the CA was uncalled for.
How in the world can you know all that's gone on over the last six months, all that the Apostle Paul wrote, and say such a thing? You should go apoligise to Dr. Spradlin for your disrespect for him on this blog.
He said that the reporter was wanting info concerning MABTS and he just added the Bellevue problems. As I read the Cammercial Appeal, Dr. Spradlin said more than just a few comments. Therer were 6 paragraphs saying that Gaines should resign and the reason for his resignation. As an Alumni of MABTS I am disgusted with Dr. Spradlin getting involved publicly with this situation. This should have been a private matter between Gaines and Dr. Spradlin. Should the situation with Williams been handled differently by Gaines? Yes! But the comments by Dr. Spradlin to the CA was uncalled for. He should have gone to him in his office and asked him to resign if that is what Dr. Spradlin wanted him to do. And then to wash it over by saying I only made a few comments to the CA and spoke more about MABTS. Maybe so, but the reporter gave more info about Bellevue than MABTS. And you should have known the outcome. You slandered a brother publicly and you need to ask forgiveness publicly.
Since when is it slander for one leader to suggest another leader should resign because they believe that leader acted in a grossly negligent manner that placed children at risk?
Dr. Spradlin has the option to make his views known. Ineded I think he has an obligation to answer the questions asked of him by the local newspaper. If our leaders like Dr. Spradlin are afraid to take a stand to protect the kids in their flock against child rape then they are not leaders that are worth following. I am thankful Dr. Spradlin spoke up to let people know not every Baptist leader believes it is okay to let an admitted child rapist roam the halls of a Church and interview workers for the children's department.
How can a graduate of a seminary think we should remain quiet about something like this?
I apolgise to Ace and the board for the "nursery" comment. It was uncalled for and motivated out of frustration. I've removed it.
Who is Steve Gaines going to trash next?
So far Chuck Taylor, Steve Tucker, Harry Smith, Phil Weatherwax, Mark Doughtery, David Coombs and David Purdue have become fallen gofers for him.
Who will be the next point man or woman to be sent into the fray and be defeated for Steve Gaines?
You can find these comments left on the bratton report.
I also believe that public apologies are due Dr. Spradlin for at least two incidents he's gone through with Bellevue leadership in recent months, incidents whose details I do not have permission to cite in detail.
Seems that Mike Bratton can't site the "full" details for us yet. You must know this is true as Mike Bratton only deals in facts.
Could someone help me out..I am curious as to how long PW has been a counselor at church. The reason I ask this is because in 1996, I had to go for so-called 'counseling' because i was a victim of incest. I do not remember who the counselor was. was PW the one doing that at that time...
thanks
bmwtt,
If you never found that letter, email me and i'll send it to you.
fedup,
It could have been him at that time, as he was a counseler on staff then.
Behold the handmaid of the Lord; be it unto me according to thy word.
Narrator And the angel departed from her.
CH said...
BWS said:
I also have walked onto property and jumped a fence or two to look at properties for sale and whatnot and I assume that I could be brought up on trespassing charges, but I don't think it would be vigorously pursued by law enforcement. In those situations, as with SG, I don't feel like the intent was there for someone to make a case for arrest.
Again, more evidence of moral relativism. Apparently you don't think the law should apply equally to all? It's more up to them to see what fits their schedule and sentiments? "No trespassing" means "no trespassing unless you're a nice guy who's just looking at property for sale and don't think this should apply to you"?
Trying really hard to understand...
11:14 AM, December 22, 2006
"No trespassing" means "no trespassing" just like "don't touch me there daddy" means "DON'T TOUCH ME"!!! There isn't really any gray area here!
ace,
Please respond when you get a chance.
Ace, are you a girl?
Cause if you're not, you come across as the girliest man I've ever heard. The girly comments, the little winks and smiles on your comments...you're a chick right?
David Perdue's actions just don't make sense.
David Perdue is on the Trustee Board at Mid America Seminary.
David Perdue thought Dr. Mike Spradlin was God's annointed man for being the President of Mid America Seminary.
David Perdue and the rest of the Gaines gang have said over and over it's a sin to question God's annointed. They say be quiet and let God handle it.
David Perdue, why did you ask for the resignation of Dr. Mike Spradlin yesterday? If you have changed your philosophy on questioning authority, why is it wrong for others to call for Steve Gaines to step down?
Could it be that this rule only applies to certain people? Where's the consistency? Where's the integrity.
This reminds me of liberals working their way into the church. Rules apply only when it benefits them. When the rules don't benefit them, they ignore them even if it means breaking the law.
How is the tithing record of the staff these days? Is Steve Gaines going to let any of them go? How about the deacons, soloists, and teachers? Are any of them going to be fired at the end of the year?
Are you still working on Steve Gaines TV deal? Did you purchase a TV station for Steve Gaines?
I call on all staff and deacons to stop paying their tithe with their personal checks and start dropping in the offering plate cash, or a money order. This way the ITS can't check your tithe. Let's see how long it will take Steve Gaines to call you onto his new soft carpet for a little chat. At that time, you can tell him it's none of his business. Tell him your tithe is between you and God. Steve Gaines can't fire you for not tithing with a personal check. If he does, there's a big billboard with Johnny Cochran's law firm ready to hear from you.
No integrity behind the pulpit, no tithing with personal check.
No accountability in the leadership, tithing money sent somewhere else where it's used properly.
The blog has reported $30,000,000 in the bank right now. Can anyone come up with a good reason for this?
Financeguy,
My comments addressed to Dr. Spradlin were saying that he should not be commenting to the press. Say it privately to SG. If he did, great. But regardless, say nothing to the press. You state that SG said it himself and so it was OK for Spradlin to tell it. Remember, he said that to the church not the press. At least follow some resemblance of Matthew 18. After the third admontition tell it to the Church, not the press. Should SG resign? That is a question for him and the members of Bellevue to answer. I will apologize for a word I used, slander. Yet I do feel very strongly that a leader of Dr. Spradlin stature should not be involved in talking to the press about internal things in a church. Should he speak out against any kind of moral failures in a church? YES! But there is a proper Biblical forum for that. Merry Christmas to all.
hifriend,
did you see Dr. Spradlin's explanation of how the article came about? He was asked a hypothetical question by the journalist and the journalist superimposed those words on the SG situation. Now, Dr. Spradlin, stands by his answer, but you might find it helpful to read his statement as to how the article came about. www.mabts.edu
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