Congratulations, you posted over 360 comments in the "Another New Financial Thread" in under 15 hours -- a new record. So here's the latest "new" financial thread.
Just a note: Some of us blew off some steam last night which is bound to happen in a venue such as this sometimes. But today's a new day, so let's pledge to stop feeding the bears and trolls and return to some semblance of serious, civil discussion. Your cooperation is much appreciated!
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215 comments:
«Oldest ‹Older 201 – 215 of 215Man, what in the world is the deal with the word "hate" around here. I haven't heard it batted around this much since the last Democrat press conference I watched.
Guys, strong disagreements, strong words, and even occasional anger do not necessarily rise to the level of hate. Dislike and frustration maybe, but I've not seen a lot of hate around here.
I dare say that no one on this blog truly hates anyone in the Administration. I dislike some very strongly, but I do not wish them ill--only justice. I think not many here would wish anyone there anything but justice.
And for those of you on the other side who post here, I honestly don't think any here hate you. We get into strong disagreements and sometimes say things we shouldn't but does that happen more often with those we love or those we hate--I daresay the former?
Both sides, before you bandy about a term like "hate" think about it. It's probably not the right word.
custos,
I would like to give a few examples of the correct use of this word.
I hate sin.
I hate what sin has done to me.
I hate what sin had done to my brothers and sisters in Christ.
I hate what sin has done to our Church.
I hate what sin has done within our deacon body.
I hate sin in the pulpit and in the pew.
I love the sinner and bid them to come home. We have wandered so far from our first love, that we no longer recognize our first love. He knows us by each by name and longs for us to return.
Please Lord have mercy on this church. If only 10 can be found that fear your Name, please Lord turn from your wrath and lead us back to your arms.
hisservant, I'll agree that we'd lose any vote to oust the current leadership.
But, tell me, why do those that claim to stand on Truth ask ex-staff members to sign non-disclosure agreements and later on ask to meet with them, but tell the ex-staffer that he can only answer 'yes' or 'no' to any questions?
And you're going to tell us that we're deceived? I would say you are right in that we are deceived. We differ in who is deceiving whom.
You are right that "actions speak", which is why the two actions mentioned above (along with others) say "we don't want the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth to be known, only that part which doesn't embarrass the church or its leadership".
Ed Thompson
Well said, Tim. Well said.
Karen posted: The Ruth's Chris dinner is resolved (although it was pretty cheap per person considering the prices at that particular restaurant). The stuff we're talking about today is new.
REPLY: this has been part of the point all along. this Ruth's Chris deal is one issue MANY on the blog and others were going crazy about. it was one of the BIG problems and points. We have now found out the "facts" were way off. the number of people at a meal that like that changes things does it not? you through a meal that actually happened and add some mis-information to it and everything becomes different.
1. why don't you and others think this same thing can be the case for many of these terrible "issues"? why?
2. have you and others said you were sorry to Brother Steve and all involved about accusing him of things you have already been proven to be wrong about?
i will be honest. when this is all over, I think there is going to be a pretty large group of people with egg on their face and that will need to say they are sorry.
i would also agree there are many on both sides that will have to make things right. we have all made mistakes during this time.
xd9x19 said...
"hisservant, I'll agree that we'd lose any vote to oust the current leadership."
Sorry gentlemen, I beg to differ. When the full truth is available to the congregation and placed in the Light of the Word, there will be no problem with the Lord opening the exit door.
Mr. Gaines steam rolled his previous congregations and they let him because they felt he was a good preacher, and that he is, but so is Joel Osteen- look at the offerings and attendance he has and his church is adding members with each service-even baptisms have increased. But Bellevue Christians have been taught a better way by the men who walked before him (SG). They were taught to be keen and wise (well, most are anyway) and to walk in the way of the Truth and send forth the Light. There is no way, aside from full repentance and full apologies, that Steve Gaines will be allowed to stay. To scatter the flock and not only fail to minister to God's sheep, but send his henchmen out to destroy them will not continue!
The reason I know this is because of scripture. The Lord will not allow his sheep to be scattered, slaughtered or destroyed - not even their reputations!
I would be fearful of the wrath of the Lord if I were him.
As far as the other men involved, they will depart in shame when the truth about them is brought before the congregation and the world.
My faith comes from a promise in Jeremiah 23.
Attempting to bait the folks on this web site may be good entertainment for you, but the more you post, the more we recognize.
Good day gentlemen.
And yet, for something so simple, look what it took for it to get "resolved"? Why? If it was so easily refuted, why was Mark Sharpe & others not allowed to bring it up before the deacons and have it addressed in less than 5 minutes before all this became public?
All this still does not explain why the principle parties (Gaines, Sharpe, Emerson, Dougherty, etc.) have YET to be brought together in one setting.
this has been part of the point all along. this Ruth's Chris deal is one issue MANY on the blog and others were going crazy about.
I disagree. It may have been a big deal at the savingbellevue site but not here.
I can understand a nice meal for out of town honored guests. If BBC staff living high on the hog and were going to Ruth's Chris & other high end joints on a very regular basis then I'd have a problem.
I do have a problem with the cheerleading airplane tickets.
If the IRS does not call it a legit "moving expense" neither do I. If it was that important to his child he could have paid for it himself. He pulls a very good paycheck. Asking for BBC to pay for those cheerleader plane tickets is a slap in the face. I expect better than that from the Senior Pastor of BBC. It cannot be justified and Dr. Gaines unwillingness to apologize and reimburse the church bothers me in a significant way.
you might get your facts straight first, again, before calling out Brother Steve. It was NOT his choice and he did not expect for Bellevue to pay. This has been gone over in detail on this site. He intended to pay and Mark and others at the Church thought Bellevue should pay because they felt it was a part of moving expenses.
it is a decision. very simple. Mark and others made it and moved on.
you and others want to second guess every decision ever made.
that is not fair and not how things should be done. that is their job to make those decisions. you and I might not agree with every one of them and that should not matter.
it is a decision. very simple. Mark and others made it and moved on.
you and others want to second guess every decision ever made.
Please. It was a bad decision, people make them all the time. It is also a decision that is easily cured and forgotten about. It is the lack of the admission a mistake was made and fixing the problem that bothers me.
that is their job to make those decisions
Part of their job is being good stewards. Pagan accountants would not reimburse this. It is not a legitimate reimbursable moving expense according to IRS rules. That means BBC people were bad stewards. Admit your error, ask forgiveness for being a bad steward, fix it and move on.
Bravo, Ben Wonderin!!
Humility, admission of mistakes, genuine brokeness are necessary and should be displayed from the pulpit. I am just in shock over how the "rules don't apply" to some people,...to our leadership.
Wow! I am truly shocked at what you all are doing. After reading what you all have written, I see that not one person has personally gone to Steve Gaines and talked to him personally. He is not George Bush, it is not like he has secret service keeping you back. I truly believe that you guys love this and feed off of each other. I believe as a born again christian that MY GOD is bigger than all of this and if I truly believed as you all do, that my time would be well better spent on my knees asking God to make changes where needed. My Bible says Judge not lest ye be judged. I do believe that a pastor is held to a higher standard, but listening to you all one would believe him to be Stalin. He is a man of God and you all are truly hurting your "beloved" and I say that with a sincere heart church but carrying on the way you do. One would question your testimonies when your critical views are voiced. Do you not vote in your committees? Are they all hand picked by your pastor??? You all talk about the changes that are being made. I laugh to myself when you all talk about the music minister. I have no clue what took place with Dr. Whitmire/Jamie Parker, but Dr. Whitmire was a fabulous music director and I am sure that God has blessed him over and over again. Your church music has not changed in the sense that it is wrong it is just a different approach and I can honestly say that it is as spirit filled as with Dr. Whitmire leading it and his music was amazing. I watched as it changed and could see that they carefully did not do anything drastically. Instead of criticizing changes you should embrace them and see what God can deliver in your own life. You all are truly blessed with a wonderful church and your services are definitely God Filled. You need to be careful what you say and do regarding the Man of God who is filling your pulpit right now. You have no clear answer as to if your facts are correct and you need to heed what God's word says about things done or said against God's Chosen. You do not have the super natural ability to see into his heart and tell if he is wrong or not. I am just a lurker here. I know that church conflict does arise, but when I heard the one lady saying about "HOW DO WE OUST HIM" are you sure you all are doing things biblically or just "you don't like him" Not everyone is gonna like everyone in the world and it is not like your church is 400 people. Prayers said for all of ya involved and that the Lord works in a wonderful way to restore unity to all you again! HE IS MIGHTY! HE CAN MAKE IT HAPPEN!! TRUST HIM!!!
nice points DGE!
dge wrote:
"Do you not vote in your committees?
As far as I know, since we haven't had a business meeting in nearly 18 months, no.
Are they all hand picked by your pastor???"
Yes, along with a small inner circle of men.
So do you see the problem here?
"I heard the one lady saying about "HOW DO WE OUST HIM"
I didn't see that, but that's not what we're about here. It's about holding him accountable, not getting rid of him. It may come to that, but that's not our common goal. My heart's desire is reconciliation, but without transparency and accountability that will never happen. I still pray it does.
NASS
P.S. One word -- "paragraphs." In a comment that long, they're good things!
John 20 talks about Thomas the doubter. Do you know what the difference is between being a doubter and a skeptic? Doubt is a resting place, skepticism is a permanent place. I preached at a nursing home for a year before I became a pastor. There are two kinds of people in the nursing home, sweet and skeptical. The sweet people lived a quiet life ( 1 Thess 4:11), loved the Lord and never said an unkind word about anyone, no matter how bad they have been mistreated.
The skeptical people lived lives of constant doubt about everyone and everything. We should all consider others as being more knowledgeable than ourselves (Phil 2:3)
The way a person retires at skepticism is focusing on their doubts too long. Eventually a doubter has to become like James and become a doer.
BBC is not going to have a monthly business meeting for 7000 people, close that doubt. If you try to corner him during church, you are going to affect his ability to deliver the message, which would not be of any benefit to anyone.
It sounds like they have these open door meetings on Sunday morning, but no one cares to attend them. Think about it...what message does tell the rest of the congregation about your efforts and concerns?
If only one person shows up, of course they are going to look like a rebellious person. It appears most people on this blog do not have positions of leadership or authority in their everyday lives so they want to take it out on the church.
Splitting hairs over a dinner meal, give me a break. Was it $39 or $49, who cares! A pastor is not perfect and obviously the some people that post to this blog has never led one single thing in their life, otherwise they would have more empathy for a leader that makes mistakes. Make no bones about it, if a person leads, there will always be those who will not agree. This why there is a leader, someone to lead the charge when there is confusion, and no one knows what direction to take.
A church this size can not be ran by consensus, a member either needs to see what the church is passionate about, and if that churches passion does not line up with theirs they need to find a church who shares their passion.
Some posters of this blog appear to be some overly concerned religious people, using the bible as their sword of choice, yet if they are such tremendous communicators of Gods truth, how come they are not in a teaching capacity and sharing this wonderful insight to a lost and dying world. People outside the church are clawing their way through darkness, trying to make sense of this thing called life.
Honestly, when someone posts a long post filled with scripture, I guarantee 99% of you scroll right past it because there is no dirt to chew on.
Ever heard the expression, can’t see the forest through the trees? It is human nature when we get too close to something we lose focus of the big picture, and our life gets distorted beyond the point of focusing on what is truly important.
If the church is ran by people with character flaws (which I am not saying it is or not) it will eventually blow up and become so easily recognizable for even the most marginal Christian will recognize the flaws. Just like Gamaliel’s advice in Act 5 38-39, if this church is ran by carnal men, nothing great will come of it, and it will become nothing. However, if it is of God, no blog or anyone else can overthrow it.
Get outside and enjoy life, be a blessing to others, share the love of Christ, serve the creator and master of the universe, He died for us, lets go tell the world about this great gift, who knows He might come back tonight.
Let me leave you with this advice, don’t stay in the doubt truck stop very long, the food will get you to the nursing home of skepticism faster than you care to get there.
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