Monday, November 20, 2006

Financial Issues or Whatever...

The last thread is approaching 500 comments and needs to be cut. Please continue here.

Please try to maintain some semblance of civility, and please don't feed the bears or the trolls!

478 comments:

1 – 200 of 478   Newer›   Newest»
Anonymous said...

Regardless of the beliefs that the Methodists may have, if our pastor viewed it as a worthy charity, we should support him in it.

It's not that hard...many of the 'faithful' should really give it a try.

Tim said...

phil413,

I will take your lack of response to indicate that you have either missed my first & second and now third attempt to insure that you were not offended or that you feel stongly enought that you will not respond.
I appreciated the point that you were making and wanted to point out also the importance of maintaining the integrity of the church.

Tim said...

ace,

are you saying that we should blindly follow a man, because he is a pastor.

allofgrace said...

WTB,
If you're still around...I sent the email on the 18th...2 days ago. Let me know if you can't find it and I'll resend. Blessings.

Anonymous said...

Tim

no, we should follow the man (not just any man) that God appointed to us as pastor; anything less would be disobedience

Anonymous said...

ace,

you make a good point. Also, to everyone:

The Baptists raised Jimmy Carter and Bill Clinton.

The Methodists raised George W. Bush.
Whose autograph would you like to have? :)

Anonymous said...

Or, maybe we could all include on every envelope of every offering we give exactly to whom or where we would prefer it to go

Impossible to do, so why split hairs over one offering that may or may not be used in a way contrary to what we believe.

Tim said...

ace,

You are going to have to qualify that a little bit.

The man appointed as pastor of all churchs, should they be afforded the same support in everything that they do?

Anonymous said...

formerworkshipper

I really wouldn't like any of their autographs, but I would support them as president no matter what policies they endorse, regardless if I differ on some issues.

As with our pastor...the same goes. I will not agree with every word, but I will support him through thick or thin...and right now in many of your opinion, it is thin...or thick...or whichever one is considered bad

Anonymous said...

Tim,

are you saying that we should blindly follow a man, because he is a pastor.

No, not at all. I'm saying that God has placed Dr. Gaines in authority over us. Say whatever you want, criticize me, attack me...whatever. But he is my pastor, and as long as you continue to stay around Bellevue, he is YOUR pastor too.

You may not agree with everything he does or says. Or you may not even agree with the ties he wears...whatever your problem of the day is with him. But in the end this Man of God has been brought to Bellevue for a reason. I don't believe God made a mistake, do you? Again, everyone is a sinner....but isn't forgiveness great? The man isn't perfect, but who is? (besides our LORD and Savior Jesus Christ!)

Anonymous said...

I did not post the following posts:
11:10 PM, November 20, 2006
11:12 PM, November 20, 2006

Somebody is using my name...NBBCOF, could you please delete those posts?

You see, this is how low some of you guys will go because you disagree with me. Pathetic.

Anonymous said...

Tim

It is not necessarily supporting an action, but supporting the man. He is error prone, as we all are, so why point out every flaw as if it were a surprise to us that he is imperfect.

The majority of the church are willing to support him...how about the rest?

Anonymous said...

I didn't post the 11:16 PM, November 20, 2006 post either....

-the REAL ace (check my profile to prove it)

Anonymous said...

Someone is claiming that I am not me on:

11:18 PM, November 20, 2006

Please delete their post; really low guys

Anonymous said...

11:19 PM, November 20, 2006 isn't me.

Please, stop it. If you profess to be a Christian you are hurting your testimony. Why do you have to stoop so low? Why???

Webmaster, I trust that these posts will be deleted.

-the REAL ace

Anonymous said...

11:21 PM, November 20, 2006
is not the real ace, I am


Webmaster, I am the real ace...go back and check my other posts and your will see that my previous comments are consistent with my recent ones..

Go away fake ACE!!
It is you who hurting your testimony!

Tim said...

ace,

We obviously disagree on this issue. God may place men in authority and he will serve his purpose, but it does not mean that we are to follow them as if they were God.

Anonymous said...

Ace,
Jave you ever heard of Jim Jones?
I believe you have a cult type belief and you should be careful with that.

New BBC Open Forum said...

the "real" ace,

I can't keep up with this. Please just change your screen name or use your real name.

To whomever is posting as the "new" ace, cut it out!

NBBCOF

Anonymous said...

11:21 PM, November 20, 2006
11:25 PM, November 20, 2006

neither of these are the real ace

Guys,

I have been on another thread, and someone told me of some odd comments in my name...I am here now though, so face Aces, scram!!

Anonymous said...

Ace, I believe Steve Gaines was Gods' man when he came to Bellevue. I don't believe he is the man now to lead us.

Anonymous said...

NBBCOF

Amen!!

Anonymous said...

Ace, It would help if you would use your real name and come out from behind that door.

Anonymous said...

NBBCOF,

This topic has really hurt my name. I am kindly requesting the following posts being deleted:

11:10 PM, November 20, 2006 (FAKE ACE)
11:11 PM, November 20, 2006 (response from somebody to FAKE ACE)
11:12 PM, November 20, 2006 (FAKE ACE)
11:13 PM, November 20, 2006 (response from somebody to FAKE ACE)
11:16 PM, November 20, 2006 (FAKE ACE)

Posts 11:18 PM, November 20, 2006 THROUGH 11:25 PM, November 20, 2006

Please...thanks.

Anonymous said...

Silentnight,

do you believe then that God made a mistake?

allofgrace said...

I think "ace" is just playing games...nice try.

phil413 said...

phil413 said...
Tim,
I'm not sure what post your referring to but you would have to hit me over the head with a baseball bat to offend me. I do not wear my feelings on my sleeve and probably tend to think everyone should be that way. You brother, are a blessing to me and you have not offended me in any way, so you can rest easy I will not be showing up at your house with 3-4 brothers to confront you.
Phil. 4:13
David Matlock
PS I'm sorry it took me so long to respond but I've been chasing kids to bed and making bologna sandwiches.

Anonymous said...

Don't answer that question from the above Ace, it's not me.

-the REAL Ace

Anonymous said...

What we have folks is elder rule by a close knit group of power brokers. The congregation needs to be awakened to this. I agree with Bin Wonderin:

We need:

1. An apology to the congregation for mocking us at Union City. After all, some of us didn't fall off the cabbage truck yesterday!

2. An admission the cheerleader tickets are not a legit moving expense and reimbursement to BBC.

3. An admission Dr. Gaines should have never given $25k to FUMC and an explanation of policy changes to prevent a repeat.

4. A policy for open books on Holy land trips and no overcharging of members. Free tickets for the host and wife are fine but not for anybody else

5. A monthly business meeting with open mike Q&A with each committee chairman. Transcripts on the web within a week;

6. A transparent committee selection process.

7. A good updated set of bylaws similar to GBC.

8. The signing of a public conflict of interest form for any member that has any business contract to provide services to the church. These people should be recused from committees that review bids for their services.

9. No church credit cards. Pay your own way and then turn in an expense report like I do at my job.

AND I would like to add...

10. A business meeting in accord with Matthew 18 to deal with the issues that remain related to Mark Sharpe and "the Dream"... AND any other loose ends that should have been dealt with months ago!!

11. The END of heavy handed dealing with ministers, staff, and members.

12. A whistle blower policy for ministers, staff, and members. Also:

13. Full disclosure of ministerial compensation: salary + benefit breakdown, etc.

14. Much greater congregational oversight of the current budget with a transparent policy for consideration of non-budgeted expenditures exceeding a reasonable amount.

15. Forgiveness for those in leadership who have allowed this to deteriorate to this point--AND consequences for their actions.

Revival, reform, congregational oversight... for there is level ground at Calvary and "he who would be great among you shall be the servant of all."

allofgrace said...

anybody ever heard of the "shell game"?

Anonymous said...

Ace,
I believe SG came here maybe to reveal what is happening behind the closed doors at Bellevue. Has it occured to you that it may be time for him to go? When do you believe or how do you decide when it's time for SG to go?

New BBC Open Forum said...

To all the "aces":

Cut the crap!

EVERYBODY,

WE'VE GOT TWO PEOPLE CLAIMING TO BE THE "REAL" ACE. PLEASE KINDLY REFRAIN FROM RESPONDING TO EITHER OF THEM. IT'S JUST ANOTHER PLOY, AND IT'S NOT GOING TO WORK. GROW UP!

phil413 said...

Hey Nass,
Why not just delete any post that begins with ACE. I'm sure most on here wouldn't mind at all.
JMHO,
David Matlock

Anonymous said...

Ace,
How many more members have to leave before it's time for SG to leave?

New BBC Open Forum said...

Anyone who finds himself a "victim" of someone assuming his identity has only to change his screen name and/or sign his real name.

NBBCOF

allofgrace said...

aceseses...you're 15 minutes are up

Anonymous said...

Fewer Aces in the deck... How nice... Something tells me hisservant 1 just got a call... jmo

Anonymous said...

Ace,
I agree and it's obivious to many that God may be closing the door for SG. Just look what is happening all around us.

Anonymous said...

SG may be error prone, but is he a responsible leader. A church leader deals with weighty issues everyday. Integrity must be at the core of the man's life or every decision he faces becomes a potential grenade. Either he's annointed or he is not. God's man recognizes God's will.

westtnbarrister said...

I think the seminal issue in all of this is one of pastoral authority. I believe our church, like so many others, has moved toward a warped view of pastoral authority. Some have defended the pastor on the basis that only God can remove a leader or hold him accountable. This is not the traditional Southern Baptist view of the pastor. However, as long as there has been a church, some have granted more authority to pastors than I believe the Bible mandates and the clergy have been all too willing to accept that authority.

Below is an article on pastoral authority that speaks to my point.

NASS, if it is too long, feel free to delete my post. I won't be upset.

"Those who are supposed to rule over the Gentiles lord it over them, and their great men exercise authority over them," Jesus said to his disciples, "but it shall not be so among you!" Rather than being lords, he went on to say, disciples are to be servants of one another and the greatest is the one who is servant of all (Mark 10:42-43).

By these words Jesus indicates that an entirely different system of government than that employed by the world should prevail among Christians. Authority among Christians is not derived from the same source as worldly authority, nor is it to be exercised in the same manner. The world's view of authority places men over one another, as in a military command structure, a business executive hierarchy, or a governmental system. This is as it should be. Urged by the competitiveness created by the Fall, and faced with the rebelliousness and ruthlessness of sinful human nature, the world could not function without the use of command structures and executive decision.

But as Jesus carefully stated, "...it shall not be so among you." Disciples are always in a different relationship to one another than worldlings are. Christians are brothers and sisters, children of one Father, and members one of another. Jesus put it clearly in Matthew 23:8, "One is your Master, and all you are brethren."

Throughout twenty centuries the church has virtually ignored these words. Probably with the best of intentions, it has nevertheless repeatedly borrowed in toto the authority structures of the world, changed the names of executives from kings, generals, captains, presidents, governors, secretaries, heads, and chiefs to popes, patriarchs, bishops, stewards, deacons, pastors, and elders, and gone merrily on its way, lording it over the brethren and thus destroying the model of servanthood which our Lord intended. Christians have so totally forgotten Jesus' words that they frequently have set up the world's pattern of government without bothering to change the names, and have operated churches, mission organizations, youth organizations, schools, colleges, and seminaries, all in the name of Jesus Christ, but with presidents, directors, managers, heads and chiefs in no way different from corresponding secular structures.

It is probably too late to do much about altering the many structures that are commonly called "para-church" or "quasichurch" organizations, but certainly Jesus' words must not be ignored in the worship and training functions of the church itself. Somewhere, surely, the words of Jesus, "...it shall not be so among you," must find some effect. Yet in most churches today an unthinking acceptance has been given to the idea that the pastor is the final voice of authority in both doctrine and practice, and that he is the executive officer of the church with respect to administration. But surely, if a pope over the whole church is bad, a pope in every church is no better!

It is clear from the scriptures that the apostles were concerned about the danger of developing ecclesiastical bosses. In 2 Corinthians 1:24 Paul reminds the Corinthians concerning his own apostolic authority, "...not that we lord it over your faith; we work with you for your joy..." In the same letter he describes, with apparent disapproval, how the Corinthians reacted to certain leaders among themselves: "For you bear it if a man makes slaves of you, or preys upon you, or takes advantage of you, or puts on airs, or strikes you in the face" (2 Corinthians 11:20). Peter, too, is careful to warn the elders (and he includes himself among them) not to govern by being "...domineering over those in your charge, but being examples to the flock." And John speaks strongly against Diotrephes "who likes to put himself first, and takes it on himself to put some out of the church." These first-century examples of church bosses indicate how easily churches then (as in the 20th century) ignored the words of Jesus, "it shall not be so among you."

But if the church is not to imitate the world in this matter, what is it to do? Leadership must certainly be exercised within the church and there must be some form of authority. What is it to be? The question is answered in Jesus' words: "One is your Master." All too long churches have behaved as if Jesus were far away in heaven and he has left it up to church leaders to make their own decisions and run their own affairs. But Jesus himself had assured them in giving the Great Commission, "Lo, I am with you always, even unto the end of the age." And in Matthew 18:20 he reiterated, "Where two or three are gathered together in my name, there am I in the midst of them." Clearly this indicates that he is present not only in the church as a whole but in every local church as well. It is Jesus himself, therefore, who is the ultimate authority within every body of Christians, and he is quite prepared to exercise his authority through the instrument he himself has ordained---the eldership.

The task of the elders is not to run the church themselves, but to determine how the Lord in their midst wishes to run his church. Much of this he has already made known through the scriptures, which describe the impartation and exercise of spiritual gifts, the availability of resurrection power, and the responsibility of believers to bear one another's burdens, confess sins to one another, teach, admonish, and reprove one another, and witness to and serve the needs of a hurting world.

In the day-to-day decisions which every church faces, elders are to seek and find the mind of the Lord through an uncoerced unanimity, reached after thorough and Biblically-related discussion. Thus, ultimate authority, even in practical matters, is vested in the Lord and in no one else. This is what the Book of Acts reveals in its description of the initiative actions of the Holy Spirit, who obviously planned and ordered the evangelizing strategy of the early church (Acts 8,13, etc.). The elders sought the mind of the Spirit and, when it was made clear to them, they acted with unity of thought and purpose. ("For it has seemed good to the Holy Spirit and to us to lay upon you no greater burden..." Acts 15:28.) The authority, therefore, was not the authority of men but of God, and it was expressed not through men, acting as individuals, but through the collective, united agreement of men whom the Spirit had led to eldership (Acts (20:28).

The point is: no one man is the sole expression of the mind of the Spirit: no individual has authority from God to direct the affairs of the church. A plurality of elders is necessary as a safeguard to the all-too-human tendency to play God over other people. Even then, the authority exercised is not one of domination and arbitrary decree over anyone. The ability of a servant to influence anyone else does not lie in ordering someone around but by obtaining their voluntary consent. This is the nature of all authority among Christians, even that of the Lord himself! He does not force our obedience, but obtains it by love, expressed either in circumstantial discipline or by awakening gratitude through the meeting of our desperate needs.

The true authority of elders and other leaders in the church, then, is that of respect, aroused by their own loving and godly example. This is the force of two verses which are often cited by those who claim a unique authority of pastors over church members. The first is found in 1 Thessalonians 5:12,13, "But we beseech you, brethren, to respect those who labor among you, and are over you in the Lord and admonish you, and to esteem them very highly in love because of their work." The key phrase is "and are over you in the Lord"; the Greek word in question is prohistamenous. Though this is translated "over you" in both the Revised Standard and King James versions, the word itself contains no implication of being over another. The New English Bible more properly renders it, "...and in the Lord's fellowship are your leaders and counselors." The thought in the word is that of "standing before" others, not of "ruling over" them. It is the common word for leadership. Leaders can lead only if they are able to persuade some to follow.

Another verse used to support command authority is Hebrews 13:17, which the Revised Standard Version renders, "Obey your leaders and submit to them, for they are keeping watch over your souls, as men who will have to give account." The imperative translated "obey" is from the word peitho, to persuade. In the middle voice, used here, Thayer's lexicon gives its meaning as "to suffer one's self to be persuaded." Again there is no thought of a right to command someone against his will, but the clear thrust is that leaders are persuaders whose ability to persuade arises not from a smooth tongue or a dominant personality, but from a personal walk which evokes respect.

At this point many may be tempted to say, "What difference does it make? After all, the pattern of command authority is too widely established to alter now, and besides, many churches seem to be doing all right as it is; why try to change now?"

In response, consider the following:

1. The Bible indicates that any deviation from the divine plan inevitably produces weakness, division, strife, increasing fruitlessness, and, ultimately, death. The present low state of many churches is testimony to the effects of ignoring, over a long period of time, God's way of working.

2. A command structure of authority in the church deprives the world of any model or demonstration of a different way of life than the one it already lives by. Worldlings see no difference in the church, and can see no reason why they should change and believe.

3. A command authority inevitably produces resentment, repression, exploitation and, finally, rebellion. It is the law, which scripture assures us we can never redeem or restore, but which must, by its very nature, condemn and repress.

4. The desire of the Lord Jesus to show to the world a wholly new form of authority which is consistent with grace, not law, is nullified by a command structure among Christians, and the gospel of dying-to-live is denied even before it is proclaimed. This means that God is robbed of his glory and distorted before the watching world. Nothing could be more serious than this!

Admittedly, a call for a change of this nature is radical, even revolutionary. But since when was the church called to be a conforming society? Is it not high time we took seriously our Lord's words: "it shall NOT be so among you"?

Anonymous said...

It is very unlikely that SG is going to leave unless he wants to leave. He has the support that he needs and the church has the money it needs already in the bank.

Bellevue will be different, but that was going to be the case even if Mickey Mouse became the Pastor after Dr. Rogers.

Anonymous said...

Ace,
Why won't SG himself sit with the committee and answer some questions?

phil413 said...

Good Night and God Bless you all, even the 12 aces.
Phil. 4:13
David Matlock
Hey Tim,
E-Mail me when you get a chance.

Anonymous said...

silentnight,

How many more members have to leave before it's time for SG to leave?

IMO, it doesn't matter. Just because people are leaving does not mean Dr. Gaines is at fault. This is the work of Satan in our church.

Think about this- Let's say for this example that all the accusations are false. If you were the pastor and all the allegations came out, I don't know about you, but I would have left a long time ago. I'd say, "Fine, you accuse me of stealing, I've had enough of this...cya later!"

But no - he has stayed, showing us what a strong man of God he is. Do you think he wants to deal with all of this? Of course not. Do you think he wants this to come to an end? Of course. :)

Anonymous said...

stillwaiting,

Why won't SG himself sit with the committee and answer some questions?

I don't know. Perhaps it is because of his already busy schedule? But again, I have no clue, you'll have to ask him that yourself!

Anonymous said...

SG may be error prone, but is he a responsible leader?? A church leader deals with weighty issues everyday. Integrity must be at the core of the man's life or every decision he faces becomes a potential grenade. Either he's annointed or he is not. God's man recognizes God's will.

Anonymous said...

"A bishop then must be blameless"

Where does this qualification stand? This doesn't mean sinless, but without moral or ethical failings that would damage the witness of the church. It is important for the church's witness to the community and it is important for the flock's desire to follow.

Anonymous said...

Ace,
I guess jobs paying a total package of $400,000 plus are not found everyday.

Anonymous said...

silentnight,

Even though the salaries have never been published...if it's true that he makes $400,000 do you really think he'd be stealing? How stupid do you think he is?

allofgrace said...

WTB,
Excellent work brother. Did you find my email?

Anonymous said...

the REAL ace said...
stillwaiting,

Why won't SG himself sit with the committee and answer some questions?

I don't know. Perhaps it is because of his already busy schedule? But again, I have no clue, you'll have to ask him that yourself!

11:52 PM, November 20, 2

So his schedule is tooo heavy to meet with the members during this crisis. I'm not buying that.

Anonymous said...

silentnight,

So his schedule is tooo heavy to meet with the members during this crisis. I'm not buying that.

I said I don't know why. I offered one possible reason, but I said I really didn't know. Why don't you approach him next Sunday and ask?

Anonymous said...

Ace,
Ok, I'll do just that and where will he be taking questions at?

Anonymous said...

Ok, I'll do just that and where will he be taking questions at?

Which service do you go to? Go near the front of the worship center before and after each service...he is usually there talking to people, shaking hands, hugging people, etc. He is there in the a.m. and p.m.

Anonymous said...

If we agreed to 400,000 before a proven track record in our church, then WE are to blame!!

Anonymous said...

Ace,

Thanks, but I'm not really interested in huggs or shaking hands. We have real questions that may take a little more time to answer than that. OK, I understand now there is no time or place to meet with him for that. Ok I get it.

Anonymous said...

The $400,000 figure is purely gossip. It has not been published anywhere or confirmed.

Anonymous said...

silentnight,

Thanks, but I'm not really interested in huggs or shaking hands.

It actually might be a good idea to shake his hand...he is a real friendly person, have you ever talked to him before? He's real nice...

We have real questions that may take a little more time to answer than that.

Why do you try asking anyways? It can't hurt. Then report back here with your findings.

Anonymous said...

Ace said

the REAL ace said...
The $400,000 figure is purely gossip. It has not been published anywhere or confirmed.

12:06 AM, November 21, 2006

Ok there is part of the problem as it is not published anywhere and so here we are in the dark again. I have heard at a meeting with people in the know that 400,000 is even low.

Anonymous said...

Ace, You just answered one of my questions so I dont need to go to the CC meeting.
Can we talk to SG ourselves and your answer is no.

Anonymous said...

silentnight,

Ok there is part of the problem as it is not published anywhere and so here we are in the dark again.

How much did Dr. Rogers get paid? We don't know that, but did you see anyone complaining back when he was our pastor?

Anonymous said...

Ace,
I have heard Mark Sharpe and Richard Emmerson and Ray Sabba speak and may I ask who have you spoken with?

Anonymous said...

silentnight,

"You just answered one of my questions so I dont need to go to the CC meeting. Can we talk to SG ourselves and your answer is no.

Actually, I said yes. Don't change my words around. You have to be willing to approach him though...believe it or not, he will talk to you....

I don't mean to talk to him every Sunday, but I do....we just always run into each other. He's not that difficult to find.

Anonymous said...

Ace said


How much did Dr. Rogers get paid? We don't know that, but did you see anyone complaining back when he was our pastor?


Ace,

You see people complaining now so shouldn't we now be open?

Anonymous said...

I have heard Mark Sharpe and Richard Emmerson and Ray Sabba speak and may I ask who have you spoken with?

Spoken to regarding what? The issues being addressed on these forums? I've talked to numerous deacons + other leaders in the church.

Richard Emmerson...that name sounds familiar - could you remind me who he is again? And Ray Sabba...isn't he just a Bible Fellowship Teacher? Or does he hold a position in the church? Sorry, I can't remember their titles and such. (this is a legitimate question, by the way)!

Anonymous said...

"The $400,000 figure is purely gossip. It has not been published anywhere or confirmed."

The fact that it's not published sends a message. All this hush hushness...We want our senior pastor to be successful. We want a comfortable life for God's man. But, did we do our homework with SG?

We should have examined his track record. We should have interviewed his people. etc...Did the search committee seek God's will?...really? I can understand how he seemed like the right choice. But, from a leadership standpoint, it's never a good sign when someone turns down a job and then changes their minds.

Anonymous said...

silentnight,

You see people complaining now so shouldn't we now be open?

No, because quite frankly it's none of your business (or mine, for that matter) how much he makes.

Anonymous said...

It's never a good sign when someone turns down a job and then changes his mind. He's been "pulling our strings" a while now.

Anonymous said...

msdream,

The fact that it's not published sends a message.
Again - it has never been published. Why is that the issue now? In Bellevue's 100 years this has never been a problem, has it?

it's never a good sign when someone turns down a job and then changes their minds.

Why? When he turned it down he was acting in the flesh. He was doing what HE wanted and not what God wanted. He had his own plans for his job, but you know what God told him? "Steve, I have better plans for you."

Anonymous said...

Ace,
I guess most of the membership are really no very important to you but God known everyone children by name, and that's what counts.

That may be part of the problem, you have to be a name brand to speak.

stillwaitingandwatching said...

the REAL ace said...
silentnight,

Ok there is part of the problem as it is not published anywhere and so here we are in the dark again.

How much did Dr. Rogers get paid? We don't know that, but did you see anyone complaining back when he was our pastor?

_______________________________

Yes, but Dr. Rogers was our pastor for how long??? I doubt he started at $400,000. *IF* Dr. Gaines is making that much in a year, how much will he be making in 30 years?? Is this the only place in America where the person replacing the retiree picks up in salary and perks where the retiree left off? Not trying to be smart, just making an observation.

Anonymous said...

Ace said,

the REAL ace said...
silentnight,

You see people complaining now so shouldn't we now be open?

No, because quite frankly it's none of your business (or mine, for that matter) how much he makes.

12:19 AM, November 21, 2006

ACE,

That's dangerous!

Anonymous said...

Let me say, I do not want to be in a position to wonder about his salary. I want to trust God's design. I agree that we don't want or need to see the salary. I have never cared. Frankly, I hope Dr. Rogers was paid twice that much. I'm just saying, now knowing what all we know, what all we've experienced INDIVIDUALLY with SG that we jumped the gun a little!!

Anonymous said...

silentnight,

I guess most of the membership are really no very important to you but God known everyone children by name, and that's what counts.

And why do you say that? The statement about me is incorrect. I am losing friends over this issue, how do you think that makes me feel? I am very much concerned about the accusations going around, you just have to deal with the facts and realize that they are false.

And so true about God...isn't He amazing?

westtnbarrister said...

Allofgrace,

I can't find it. I don't know if it is the email program or the emailee...

Anonymous said...

stillwaiting,

Yes, but Dr. Rogers was our pastor for how long??? I doubt he started at $400,000.

True, but you never know because salaries have never been posted... We don't even know that Gaines is making this! Again, nothing but gossip!

Is this the only place in America where the person replacing the retiree picks up in salary and perks where the retiree left off?
About the salary...nobody knows that. Perks? Like what...his car? Read the CC booklet for info on that, it's church policy. So once we get a new pastor we erase half of the rules? I don't think so.

Tim said...

Ace,

Are you Steve Gaines mother?
Just wondering, but even that wouldn't make good sense to me. My own mother wouldn't support me if I had done 1/4 of things that have been done. She would still love me, but she would certainly expect that I should pay the consquences for my actions.

Whats more I would expect it as well.

Anonymous said...

I am head off to Chicago @ 5:00am for a week. I will catch up on this later from the North. Good night to everyone.

stillwaitingandwatching said...

the real ace,

I am sorry you are losing friends over this. I haven't been speaking to any of my friends about this. So sad that people, well, atleast I, don't feel comfortable talking with my friends about these major issues at our church. Just goes to show how desperately this situation needs to be resolved. People are hurting, friendships are being severed or injured, families are being split apart.

I am so sorry you have been hurt over this. I thought it was only those who are concerned that have been hurting.

Anonymous said...

msdream,

I agree that we don't want or need to see the salary. I have never cared.

Thank you - this is the kind of attitude we need.

Frankly, I hope Dr. Rogers was paid twice that much.

Dr. Rogers deserves 100x that amount. :)

Tim said...

silentnight,

Silent Night.

Anonymous said...

silentnight,

I hope you have a safe trip! Talk to you later, I hope! Have fun too, and happy Thanksgiving!

Anonymous said...

Bellevue is one of the few Baptist churches that keep the pastor's salary secret. It is time for it to be known (and probably adjusted). The congregation should know, but currently I believe that no one other than Steve Gaines and the CFO know. And given that there is a huge block of money in the budget for that area... who knows what it is with all benefits, etc. The only reason that it is secret is that the figure would be embarrassing to the leadership. By the way... I think this strikes a nerve with certain posters... Such publication would affect the whole gravy train. Just my opinion.

Anonymous said...

Tim,

My own mother wouldn't support me if I had done 1/4 of things that have been done.

And again- how many things have been done that are proven and not gossip? I think your mother wouldn't believe the accusations until they are proven, to say the least.

Anonymous said...

Ace,

One last word as i cannot let this go. Who made up the church policy and who voted the CC members in and when did the church get to vote on that policy?

Anonymous said...

PS... Our late Pastor came to such a well-deserved figure after a lifetime of service... I suspect he started at a little bit lower figure.

Anonymous said...

stillwaiting,

I am sorry you are losing friends over this.

Thank you.

I am so sorry you have been hurt over this. I thought it was only those who are concerned that have been hurting.

Who says I'm not concerned? Would I be on this forum if I wasn't? I have a lot of other stuff I could be doing with my time..trust me.

Anonymous said...

God's work is weighty. Why do many prideful leaders think they are so deserving? think there is no accountability?

Tim said...

Ace,

I suppose that is a big difference here. I rarely wait for things to be uncovered and for people to have dig around to try and uncover the truth.

I have found that once it is out there. There is nothing else to dig for.

It seems like in this case every time we turn over a rock that theres another nice fat worm up under it.

How simple would it have been to have gathered the people together in one room and covered all of this 8-9 months ago and then nobody would have had to gone thru any of this? Of course, I believe if that had happened, then we would have had a new pastor already by now.

Anonymous said...

silentnight,

Who made up the church policy and who voted the CC members in and when did the church get to vote on that policy?

I don't know who made up the church policy as it was here before Gaines came, obviously...so it wasn't him. That's a good question for the CC, not Ace! :)

From their website:
The Communication Committee was appointed by the deacon officers and approved by the Pastor. The Deacons affirmed the appointment of this committee, and the committee was presented to the church family.

Anonymous said...

Silentnight....

The CC was not voted on by the deacons but appointed "down from above" from their number. Even with a few additions it is not representative of the deacon body as a whole. It was composed to maintain the status quo for the ruling few. In my informed opinion of course.

Anonymous said...

Ace said,

From their website:
The Communication Committee was appointed by the deacon officers and approved by the Pastor. The Deacons affirmed the appointment of this committee, and the committee was presented to the church family.

12:38 AM, November 21, 2006


Ace,

Where is this process written down that you speak of?

Anonymous said...

Ok. Speak the truth in love. Don't feed the trolls.

Please.

There are so many people who are just now finding out there are serious problems in the church, that there's sin in the camp. When they come in here to find truth, what will they find?

It's obvious that people on "both sides" are posting in less than a loving way at times. I know that emotions are running high. I've cried and grieved too.

Really, to have a change in mind concerning these matters, one begins a journey. It's not like flipping a light switch off and on. Gradual dawning of the truth. And it's painful to discover that those you've trusted and respected may not be trustworty or respectable.

If truth-tellers do not speak with grace, the seekers may decide not to seek.

Let's not be clanging cymbals :)

Anonymous said...

Tim,

I rarely wait for things to be uncovered and for people to have dig around to try and uncover the truth.

How would you like it if you were framed for murder? Somebody was killed (not by you) and the police arrest you. Now that they have the suspect in custody, who cares if the charges against him are true? Let's give him the death penalty!


I have found that once it is out there. There is nothing else to dig for.


I guess you'll be on your way up to Heaven real soon, eh? :)

Anonymous said...

25+years,

You are right. We also speak of doing things at BBc and when it's questioned, we call it policy. Where is all of this policy written down?

Anonymous said...

silentnight,

Where is this process written down that you speak of?

What do you mean? I got that info off the CC website. http://www.bellevuecommunicationcommittee.org/

stillwaitingandwatching said...

stillwaiting,

I am sorry you are losing friends over this.

Thank you.

I am so sorry you have been hurt over this. I thought it was only those who are concerned that have been hurting.

Who says I'm not concerned? Would I be on this forum if I wasn't? I have a lot of other stuff I could be doing with my time..trust me.

__________________________

I'm sorry, I didn't mean to say you weren't concerned. I don't know what to call most of the people on this blog.....we have been referred to as "anti-Bellevue," of which, I certainly am not. So, I just used the word "concerned" for lack of a better one....maybe....truth seekers??? I don't know. Putting people in "groups???" I don't want to call you "Pro Gaines" and I don't want to call me "Anti Gaines" because I certainly am not that either. So....in order to keep from labeling people, I just used the word concerned. I'm sorry if I offended you.

Anonymous said...

charis,

Ok. Speak the truth in love. Don't feed the trolls.

Just curious - who exactly are the trolls here?

When they come in here to find truth, what will they find?

Gossip.

If truth-tellers do not speak with grace, the seekers may decide not to seek.

That's true.... I hope you can tell by my posts that I am very wise with my word choices, I do not mean to offend anyone.

Tim said...

silentnight,

The deacon officers are:

Jeff Arnold

Dr. Scott Foster

Mike Hobday-who reportedly has applied for a church job.

Rex Jones-who is Harry Smith's son in law

Dr. Gary Passons

Chuck Taylor-who I guess voted himself on the committee

Steve Tucker-who also voted himself on the committee


I haven't ever thought about it before, but there appears to be a bit of conflict in 4 out of the 7 deacon officers, doesn't it.

Anonymous said...

Silentnight...

It's not written down... It's written as they need it. The writing on the wall can change any morning... It's about the power of a few... And Jesus knows our works.

Anonymous said...

Stillwaiting,

I'm sorry, I didn't mean to say you weren't concerned.

I understand. No apology is needed. Thanks, though! :)

Anonymous said...

Ace,
You don't get it. The CC committee should even be questioned as to what authority they have. The members never got to elect and vote on these people. Why, I'll tell you because nothing is written down. What is written down is usually just made up on a need basis and then we call it policy.

Anonymous said...

25+years,

It's not written down... It's written as they need it.

And you know this...how?

Anonymous said...

silentnight,

Why, I'll tell you because nothing is written down. What is written down is usually just made up on a need basis and then we call it policy.

I assume, like 25+years, you have something to back up this statement?

Anonymous said...

Ace, Please show us where this has been written down. It must have been from long ago as I have been around maybe 10 years.

Anonymous said...

Ace, Please show us where this has been written down.

I am not in a position with access to that information, so I cannot do that, sorry.

Anonymous said...

Ace...

This is the only time in the history of Bellevue that such a committee was formed... But surely you know that.
There was no pre-existing policy for the creation of an Ad-hoc committee to de-rail Matthew 18... Many of the deacons resented calls for resignations and the appointment of a committee that was not by the consent of the full body of deacons selected.

Goodnight.

Anonymous said...

Ace said,

the REAL ace said...
Ace, Please show us where this has been written down.

I am not in a position with access to that information, so I cannot do that, sorry.

12:52 AM, November 21, 2006


ACE,

That's what i figured. 25= years you might as well go to bed and get off of this merry-go-round. I off to bed and to the windy city I go....

Tim said...

silentnight or anyone else for that matter,

I really do not know a whole lot about the other three guys.

Jeff Arnold

Dr. Scott Foster

Dr. Gary Passons

I would be interested to know if there what the background information may be there.

Anonymous said...

(I added some thoughts to this earlier post)

Ok. What is the infrastucture that will benefit from the CC? What is the plan for the points that are being communicated, being given and received?

Have we sought good counsel with, not pastors who've been "there", and not even BBC people who've "been here," but with a Christian Industrial Psychologist, Special Projects Manager, etc....an outside firm which specializes in change management for large organizations? Like Dr. Rogers always said..."A Big Church has Big Needs."


We need consultation from project specialists while examining everything they might suggest in the light of God's Truth from His WORD. It is all in the Bible. Truth, Honesty, Integrity, Patience, Kindness, Joy, Long-suffering, God hates pride.

But, we must either put all the personnel back in place that we've lost and let them do their jobs (I personally believe God put those ministers/Staff members here already and we had no right to change that) (In the least, former staff members could be invited to reapply.)

We need to put them in place alongside our pastor and a steering committee that is working with the project specialists to arrive at a single purpose (not necessarily a unified purpose, but the God-directed purpose and plan) so, we will not end up facing the truth of devastation and destruction in the wake of flesh's path.


Of course Satan is going to hurt us in the area of music and peace. Prior to his fall, he was the shining, beautiful creation and leader of music. Then, God created man and woman, and they were beautiful as well as cabable of loving Him and He was pleased.

Bellevue has stood for light and truth. Bellevue has extended God's light and truth!

Bellevue has surely been favored and blessed by God. I believe Dr. Roger's was annointed, favored, and blessed, also.

Anyway, we just haven't had our guards up, armed for battle. Have any of you read the Eldredge book, enttitled Captivating? She, our church, was a sitting duck.

Are we going to rebuke Satan's attack, the claim he's probably boasting?

Were we fasting, praying, seeking God's man for BBC? Are we fasting, praying, seeking God's annointed man now? Stop the in-fighting. Read Proverbs. Dealing with people from a christian standpoint is very simple. Speak the Truth. NO, be SLOW to speak! Then, speak the truth. Quit belittling others. Each person is on a different place in his walk in the faith. Be patient.

There is hope climbing this mountain that, who knows, might even lead BBC to a whole new altitude at the mountaintop and might even include SG. We have NO idea what God wants to do here.

We need to focus on making our church the priority again. What is a church anyway?

1. A venue to worship freely without fear while receiving renewal from the Holy Spirit.

2. A place/time to absorb fellowship with other believers.

3. A practical platform of direction and resources for the ministry of which a Christian church member feels called to by God.

4. A place to grow spiritually through study of God's word.

Forget tithes, forget committees, forget changes. Look to the hills, and expect God's man who has leadership skills, love, and intelligence that are ensconced in humility, integrity and, most importantly, fear of God Himself.

9:29 PM, November 20, 2006


Derrick Calcote said...
HOOTS,

Thanks for the kind words.

I've always said that if there is a legitmate issue out there I am more than willing to address it.

To me this is certainly a legitmate issue. And with no offense meant to anyone here, once I can determine the validity of this for myself I will certainly address it.

What can be done about this at this point, I really don't know. My wish would be that this could be undone.

At this point I am going to do what I've always suggested others do. Handle this using the proper channels by talking directly to those involved.

In my opinion I have already sinned by failing to do that. It was not my intention when I engaged in this conversation, but looking back on it I have. It is something I need repent of and seek to make right.

9:40 PM, November 20, 2006


westtnbarrister said...
Derrick,

FWIW I disagree with some, but certainly not all, of your conclusions, but I love your integrity and heart. I don't expect everyone to agree with my positions on this conflict at Bellevue. I do expect civility and honesty from our leaders. You have exhibited both and you always appeal to our better angels.

Thank you

9:40 PM, November 20, 2006


HisServant-1 said...
koragg posted: So let me get this straight. Instead of doing the Christian thing and provide assistance, your willing to let your differences decide who to help and who not to help?

What if you had for the sake of this arguement, a Muslim neighbor who lost his house in a fire? Would you turn your back on him and his family because of their beliefs or would you open your arms to him and use this as an opportunity to spread the Gospel and be Christlike.

Seems like theres some hypocrasy on this side of the battle by some people besides the Bellevue leadership.



REPLY: interesting post! I wonder why everyone is ignoring it and not responding? anyone care to respond??

9:42 PM, November 20, 2006


Derrick Calcote said...
Barrister,

One note, you used the word "leader" I think in reference to me.

As a deacon, that is not a title I am comfortable with, nor do I think it is biblical.

So while I sincerly apprecaite what you said, I think that "servant" is a more appropriate title.

Thanks

9:45 PM, November 20, 2006


HisServant-1 said...
25+yrs posted: 13. Full disclosure of ministerial compensation: salary + benefit breakdown, etc.


REPLY: totally disagree.

9:45 PM, November 20, 2006


ace said...
NBBCOF,

I've just looked through all the comments in this thread, and I've seen no one posting as "HISSERVANT." They all say "hisservant."

Click on the profile name of the post @ 1:39 PM, November 20, 2006

Now click on hisservant-1's profile. You'll notice they are two different people. The 1:39 post should be deleted.

9:46 PM, November 20, 2006


JU said...
Just like there are factions of United Methodists that are not preaching the things that Martha Wagley are there are Muslims who don't hold to the beliefs that radical Middle eastern muslims hold. Hopefully, in your for instance you would know your neighbor well enough to know whether he and his family were the type that would sooner see you dead at their hands for being an infidel or whether they were moderate and didn't hold the belief that it was better to die by their own hand for their faith than live side by side with you. As you can see your arguement isn't an easy one. My position on this donation aside from the fact that I don't believe it is right to support their ministry with 25k$ in donations, is that it should have been voted on. With all facts out in the open. There would surely be people on both sides but the point is the process would be transparent. People would know what was happening. I do not for one second doubt that we as a church would have made some form of gesture or outreach to this church. As many have stated it is the christlike thing to do to reach out to these people but not in the way we have not as enablers of their flawed views.

9:51 PM, November 20, 2006


ace said...
choice,
You are not face-to-face here.
I am aware of that. But I have a feeling if I were to sit in a room with all of you folks you would beat me up with a baseball bat... ;)

Surely if you can spare a whole day to come here you must have a few minutes to witness to people also.

Who is to say I don't do that? I can assure you I make it a goal of mine to witness on a regular basis. Every single week.

Wouldn't that be better stewardship of your time? How can you justify to the Lord that you spent so much time today with people who you seem to think insult you and hurt your feelings and are unkind and libelous and slanderous and gossipy etc etc?
Yes, it probably would be a better use of my time. That should always be a better use of my time, no matter what I'm doing...I should be spreading the word of God and the message of His Grace constantly. How would I justify it to the Lord? Hmm... Do you think God is angry with me for supporting what I truly believe in? Is He upset with me for taking a stand? Or should I sit back and watch everyone here bad-mouth my church, and my PASTOR? I'm not going to stand in silence, I can guarantee you that.

What about everyone else? Couldn't everybody else be witnessing too? You see, this issue isn't only about Ace.

Unless you are on a paycheck and you have been instructed to be here I can't honestly see why you would take what you say is constant abuse from total strangers.
If you are on a pay check you should disclose that to us.
Paycheck from who? Bellevue?


If you are a paid representative then that means that we should conduct our conversations with you in a different way.
Again, please clarify.

People who are lurking need to understand why you are so sure about your postions. Has it come from seeking truth or seeking money?
It's all about the Truth. Nothing but it!

9:56 PM, November 20, 2006

Anonymous said...

Ace,

Really my last word is. Save yourself some time as that information is nowhere to be found. You answered your own question.

Tim said...

silentnight,

It has always been traditional that the deacon body appoint the committees of the church. It has been that way at every Baptist Chruch that I have ever been in. That doesn't necessarily make it right, but there was nothing unusual about the deacons appointin a committee.

Anonymous said...

Tim,

Thanks for the input. But where is it written down. You see that is the problem with policy at BBc, nothing is written down and boy do we need it now.

Anonymous said...

Hey, How do I delete all those extra posts I accidentally copied with mine?

Anonymous said...

Tim

THe deacons didn't appoint this committee... The officers did with the pastor. The overlap witht the search committee etc. is obvious.

Tim said...

25+years,

Perhaps you can help me with this.

I had not heard that the deacons did not vote for the committee.

Anonymous said...

silentnight,

Save yourself some time as that information is nowhere to be found.

Ask the CC about this. They will be able to help you out more than I can.

Anonymous said...

Let's not forget...

why would a pastor send someone else to tell one of his flock that his amen-er was too loud?

and in the next services still ask his congregation "can I get an amen" ?

Why wouldn't he ask his own sheep with his own voice if it bothered him so much? Why ask for amens if they bother him?

Wow, I wonder how that sheep feels now? Do you think he wants to go to church and worship?

Let's do the love test. Love Jesus, Love the sheep. Keep all the sheep's fleece and hard earned tithes for yourself? Is that love? Threaten and shame them for not giving enough? Tell them you're checking to see if they give? Love? hummmm.... The Son of Man had nowhere to lay his head. He gave up His life.

That's the point. What seems visible is lust of the flesh, lust of the eyes, pride of life. Not love. Everything the current administration does to show that things are wonderful just blows up in their face. Just love the sheep. Feed the sheep. Protect the sheep.

Most of these sheep know the voice of their Great Shepherd. And His banner over me is love

Tim said...

25+years,

We posted at the same time.

Wow! This is news to me.

Do you know anything about the other three deacon officers?

I have already, recognized a conflict of interest in 4 out 7. I would be interested to know if it got worse than that.

Anonymous said...

Oligarchy... elder rule... such words and phrases come to mind over and over. Bellevue needs congregational governance.

Anonymous said...

After this I'm going to bed. You see, the whole problem is there is no policy written down until there is a need. Then we write something down and say we have a policy on this...Joke

Tim said...

true..

Good Night...Sleep tight...
don't let the bed bugs bite.

but if they do...
hit 'em with a shoe.

Anonymous said...

Tim,

Check the SB site for the lists of past trustees, etc. Note past deacon chaimen. Note who was on the selection committee. This has become apparent to the outer circle of deacons. There must be sweeping change.

Tim said...

25+yrs,

Do you know anything of the other 3?

Tim said...

25+yrs,

If you don't mind my asking are you a deacon, either active or inactive?

Anonymous said...

I do and hinted at it in my last post.

Anonymous said...

What did SG mean during the prayer on Sept. 24 11 AM service when I thought I heard him say..."We are sacrificed to the world and the world is sacrificed to us?

Tim said...

Ok, enough said. You would certainly never catch my wife telling you that I ever caught a subtle hint.

Anonymous said...

Goodnight... I'd rather stay anonymous. But I love Bellevue and am praying for our hurting body of believers.

Anonymous said...

silentnight said...
After this I'm going to bed. You see, the whole problem is there is no policy written down until there is a need. Then we write something down and say we have a policy on this...Joke

uhhhmmmm.... could the deacons who are opposed to the status quo and other concerned members possibly do this? And present it to the CC as a reasonable question/request for church governance? I know that this was intended as a joke, but why not write some new bylaws? I'm sure someone else has already thought of this, though. Right? Even if they say no to reasonable bylaws, it's a win/win situation for concerned members

Just a thought

Tim said...

msdreamwise,

I must have missed that. If that is what was said then I really would have to think about it for a bit.

Tim said...

charis,

Good Point!

Let me see if I understand what you are saying though.

Have the bylaws written then present them to the communication committee and ask them if they will consider adopting new by-laws.

Anonymous said...

Tim,
OK..I wrote it down that morning. It was said during a prayer.

Anonymous said...

Yes.

If they say no, it looks bad for them. Why wouldn't a Christ-honoring Baptist church not want appropriate governance?

If they say yes? Well, that's self-explanatory

Tim said...

mrsdreamwise,

To be honest with you, it has the ring of something that is close to scripture, but not quite scripture. I would have to do a little scripture searching to see if I could find something like that.

Tim said...

charis,

I like your thinking. Have you been at Bellevue long?

Anonymous said...

Updated bylaws should be given to the CC for consideration.... Why must we do it all!!!??? LOL Just kidding...that would be a great first step in congregational posturing for more of a leadership and advisory role.

Tim said...

Well, the idea of putting in their laps and saying here turn this down, would certainly turn the heat up.

Anonymous said...

Tim, I have been thinking about that statement for awhile now. It really bothered me, but many times words can come out wrong, and by the time of the 2nd service, I'm sure a speaker is more fatigued. However, I don't like shady, grey-area, confusing talk.

Anonymous said...

I've been there more than a few years. Long enough to have grown under the teaching of the Word :) Also long enough to know that the current dilemma is not new. I was told to "like it or leave it" several years ago by a staff member.

I just didn't know how deep it ran. I wondered for a long time if I just missed it, or if many of the leaders just seemed lacking discernment (not to be judgemental, just honest about what has happened to me)

Also long enough to know that the Bible teaches that my Lord likes impossible situations- because that's when we see Him

Goodnight :)

psmpastor said...

When love is lacking suspicion abounds. I pray dear ones that you will abound in love. It is a sad day when one acts in love to a human being and is criticized for the act, especially from a people who are to be known as followers of Jesus Christ because of their love for one another. Let’s try to give some credibility to the gospel. Let’s really show the world that Jesus can make a difference.

concernedsouthernbaptist said...

As an outsider watching these developments closely because of my own church, I would suggest that a Prayer meeting be called where prayers of confession repentance be made rather than just complaining about the situation. I know it is so much easier to complain, I can be the worlds worst. It is vital that you all that have concerns be Clean before the Lord (I am not saying that you are not) so that you can ensure that you are seeking the Glory of God rather than the glory of Bellevue.

As I have read these posts over the last few weeks, my heart is sadden at the actions of the Pastor, Deacons and members of Bellevue. It is time for Prayer and Repentance. You may say that you have no need of Prayer and Repentance, are you sure?

Let me ask this question as I go, who do you Treasure more, Jesus or Bellevue?

In Christ's love!
Terry

lightandtruth said...

JU said...
I think if and when the day comes that they decide to stand in support of the Pastor that all Deacons that do not stand for the pledge should wait until after the other sit and then all rise and in unison say AND WE DO NOT. In front of the entire congregation. There will be no question then and no uninformed members. Everyone will then know that we are in a true crisis. Maybe at that time a business meeting could then be initiated. There is NO way this is going to work its way out unless we bring this before the entire congregation at a time and place of our choosing and NOT the Administration's. They must be unprepared unscripted and out of sync. Only then will their true nature be exposed. What do you think that Pastor Gaines' reaction would be to an attempt to stop the service? Would he react in a loving fashion or would he attempt to quell any dissent? Attempt to force anyone who stood up out of the service? If he did such a thing it would only prove out the dire state the church is in. Slowly as evidence gathers the lowly members will gain the ability to force the hands of the Administration with the help of the Deacons and anyone else in the Administration who is not happy. Is it possible that if SG is ousted or an attempt is made to do so that any and all of those Non-Disclosure agreements could be nullified? If we could get those people to speak out about the true nature of their "calling" away from Bellevue and stand with us what could we accomplish?

9:09 PM, November 20, 2006

While I understand JU's sentiments, I do not agree with this method. In writing to the church at Corinth (a divided church I might add), Paul said in 2 Cor 10:3-6 the following: "For though we live in the world, we do not wage war as the world does. The weapons we fight with are not the weapons of the world. On the contrary, they have divine power to demolish strongholds. We demolish arguments and every pretension that sets itself up against the knowledge of God and we take captive every thought to make it obedient to Christ. And we will be ready to punish every act of disobedience, once your obedience is complete."

I viewed the original pledge as a carnal method in contradiction to James 5:12. I posted this idea via this forum, talked to a deacon whom my family has "adopted" as ours, and voiced this concern in public forum before the Communication Committee. In fact, I told our deacon that if the deacon body had reviewed all of the credit card statements and were satisfied that there were no improprieties, they should restrict their resolution to the facts about the allegations, the internal and external auditing, and their acceptance of these reviews. This would exonerate our pastor on the allegations without providing an open-ended pledge which I believe goes beyond scriptural bounds.

We must continue using spiritual methods to address all concerns within our church body. For our struggle is not against flesh and blood... (Eph 6:12). Prayer and wielding the sword of the Spirit which is the Word of God are our best means of serving the Lord Jesus.

I personally view this time in our church as an opporunity to draw closer to the Lord and to seek more counsel from His Word. Speaking for myself, I think I had become complacent and satisfied with our programs et al. John MacArthur pinpointed this perspective on the church at Sardis (Rev 3:1-6) in his bible study entitled "The Believer's Armor." In our household, we have renewed our commitments to study of Scripture as a means of hearing from God.

While we all may not agree on matters expressed in this forum, I believe we as a church will fail as Sardis did if we do not follow Scriptural means to accomplish the legitimate end of glorifying our risen Savior. I would encourage participants here to not only post but to attend Communication Committee meetings, submit questions and comments both in person and in writing (and in love), and to continue praying for reconciliation within our church which is part of His body. Let's leave to God how He chooses to move in our midst with His answers so that in all things Christ would be honored and glorified. Only He is able.

Bin Wonderin said...

It has always been traditional that the deacon body appoint the committees of the church. It has been that way at every Baptist Church that I have ever been in. That doesn't necessarily make it right, but there was nothing unusual about the deacons appointing a committee.


It would depend. If a church follows Robert's Rules of Order the process is as follows:
1. Committees are voted on by the congregation at a business meeting.
2. A nominating committee (this could also be the deacons or a group of deacons) would offer names for vacant committee spots. Nominations are also taken from the floor. The rules for establishing a nominating committee can be set forth in the bylaws or a nominating committee can be established via a regular motion followed by a vote at a business meeting.
3. After discussion of the candidates ballots are cast for the committee positions.

Caveat #1: If there is a section in the bylaws that specifically sets forth a method to create committees and select their members, then the bylaws section would supercede the Robert’s Rules method for committee selection.

Caveat #2: The copy I have seen of the BBC bylaws does not stipulate that business meetings are to be held using Robert’s Rules of Order as the parliamentary guide. The implications of this are unclear. It is possible the BOD pass a motion authorizing authorize another parliamentary method – even one they write themselves to suit their purposes. The congregation could amend the bylaws to stipulate Robert’s Rules would be used at business meeting.

My Humble Opinion #1: The 1929 bylaws are woefully inadequate for the governance of an organization with the size and budget of BBC.

My Observation #1: If the 1929 bylaws are not the current up to date bylaws, then the BBC staff person who gave these 1929 bylaws to Josh Manning lied to him and violated Federal Law. They are required to provide an up to date copy of the bylaws upon request.

Bottom line: It is unclear whether the BOD or the Senior Pastor has the authority to establish a committee and appoint the members to said committee. By all appearances the Golden Rule is in play with respect to BBC governance. By that I mean “He who has the Gold Makes the Rules”.

Truth Hunter said...

WTB,

I printed your 11:47pm comment and read it twice. Everyone else should read it twice too.

Anonymous said...

msdreamwise asked:

What did SG mean during the prayer on Sept. 24 11 AM service when I thought I heard him say..."We are sacrificed to the world and the world is sacrificed to us?

msdreamwise,
Pastor Gaines was praying Galatians 6:14, "But God forbid that I should glory, save in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom the world is crucified unto me, and I unto the world."

Bin Wonderin said...

Updated bylaws should be given to the CC for consideration.... Why must we do it all!!!??? LOL Just kidding...that would be a great first step in congregational posturing for more of a leadership and advisory role.

The bylaws can only be amended in accordance with the existing bylaws at a business meeting via vote of the congregation.

BBC Bylaws:Section VI. AMENDMENTS These By-Laws my be altered, amended or repealed by the affirmative vote of a majority of the members of the congregation at any meeting of the congregation provided a week's public notice be given of such contemplated action.

The CC has no authority to amend the bylaws, neither does the BOD.

The bylaws my friends are what saved Germantown Baptist from a hostile take over and a path they were unwilling to travel. They had a good set of bylaws and Robert’s Rules of Order to protect their church. I would also add their bylaws stipulated there would be a business meeting at least every 90 days. That would certainly be a nice bylaw provision for BBC to have right about now.

New BBC Open Forum said...

This was asked by someone a while back, but I don't recall ever seeing an answer. When exactly was the last business meeting held at Bellevue? I can't remember one. Anyone? I want a date, not just an approximate time frame.

NASS

Bin Wonderin said...

One more comment:

Robert’s Rules (properly followed) don’t really protect a minority very much. They are designed to discuss and vote on issues to reflect the will of the majority in an orderly fashion at a business meeting. Under Robert’s Rules properly followed you can’t stand up and speak unless there is a motion on the floor. Your speech much be germane to the motion at hand. The majority can via 2/3 vote end debate at anytime. Furthermore a simple majority can vote to adjourn the meeting at any time, regardless of who is waiting to be heard. In other words, the business meeting can be adjourned with no motion and no discussion ever reaching the floor by a majority vote.

Anonymous said...

What we need are six words:

Full Disclosure and open the books.

Anonymous said...

Things At our Church remind me of when MGMT is trying to keep the Union out.

When is the next business meeting?

Let's bring our questions there.

stillwaitingandwatching said...

openbooks,

We don't have business meetings. The last one we had was when we voted SG in, if I remember correctly.

I asked this question earlier, and I think it got overlooked. Bin wonderin, you are very wise, what do you think the end result of the CC is? I mean, are they going to go around and answer questions forever? Do they have a timeline to appease us?? Are they taking our concerns into consideration, really, or just listening? What is going to come of this? So what if they sit around and listen and answer questions, what actions are going to be taken to heal our church as a result of what they hear??

I know you don't really know exactly what the CC is about, Iwould just like your opinion. Thanks.

LibertyInChrist said...

I must commend 25+yrs@BBC for this noble saints laundry list of what Steven Gaines and the leaders of the church need to do to repent, restore and reconcile with their brethren. But I would add one more critical ingredient. PASTOR STEVE GAINES, DEACON DERRICK, AND THE REST OF THE GANG OF FOUR MUST MAKE FINANCIAL AND PERSONAL RESTITUTION TO ALL OFFENDED PARTIES!!!!!!! For this too is biblically mandated!

MOM4 said...

If you are a pastor or a knowledgable member of another church, would you mind posting the salary and perks of yourself and your upper staff as well as the size of your congregation? I know Billy Graham said that he made about $100,000.00 several years ago and Jerry Falwell made a similar amount. I guess Joel Osteen and Pat Robertson make a lot more, but if you look at the true men of faith, their salaries are in line with their congregation.

How about Germantown BC? Is that pastoral salary range available?

How about you RM, how much do you make and what are your perks?

Also the staff members of BBC who are posting here, care to reveal just how much most of you are paid in relation to the rest of the staff, especially the women!! You would be surprised that some of the ministers on staff are paid very little, they have families and their wives have to work...give me a break men!! Lay it all out and pay the wages where the wages are due. Without the clerical help, you would have no clue what goes on, yet some hardworking ladies make barely 20K.
Why not put it all out there and let the congregation see where the greed and inconsistancies lie....

Churchmouse said...

Someone told me that they were told by the CC that it might be up to two years before they got back to them with an answer. The reason given was that it might take that long to find the answer. More stalling?

Tim said...

openbooks said...
Things At our Church remind me of when MGMT is trying to keep the Union out.

You are absolutely correct. Harry Smith did the exact same things..
ie..meeting in small groups..having a question answering forum...
back over 20 years ago when an automotive labor union was courting employees at Memphis area car dealerships.

Our problems are being "handled" in a very business like fashion.

Anonymous said...

SR, Thank you for looking that up!! I need to study up on the meaning. There's some doctrinal teaching that I could use for growing spiritually!

Anonymous said...

There are as many opinions about what should be done, what questions need to be answered, and how financial resources should be spent as there are people in the membership.

It appears that unless the group that is calling for change gets the kind of business meeting they want, that they are prepared to move on to greener pastures or to hang around and continue to hurl grenades at the people they don't seem to put confidence in.

What about hiring a conflict resolution specialist from the SBC to come in help resolve this dispute?

And, yes, you may call me a troll, but this forum is being advertised as an open forum.

New BBC Open Forum said...

churchmouse wrote:

"Someone told me that they were told by the CC that it might be up to two years before they got back to them with an answer. The reason given was that it might take that long to find the answer. More stalling?"

Tell me that was a typo! Two years? Did you really have to ask?

Unfortunately, that seems to be the m.o. now. Deny, delay, and dance around the issues, and eventually all the ones asking the questions will go away. Seems to be working pretty well so far. {shrugs}

Anonymous said...

What about hiring a conflict resolution specialist from the SBC to come in help resolve this dispute?

Who would do this hiring? The current administration doesn't seem interested in asking for help from anyone, much less from "outsiders"

New BBC Open Forum said...

formerworkshipper,

I don't think the "troll" fits in your case! You're cool.

NBBCOF

Tim said...

New BBC Open Forum said...
Unfortunately, that seems to be the m.o. now. Deny, delay, and dance around the issues...

BBCOF,

We need to harness up our six shooters and see if we can get 'em dance a little better.

Looks like a line dance, moves like a waltz.

Anonymous said...

charis,

Conflict resolution specialists are available to churches in the Southern Baptist Convention and are usually contacted by the Pastor and/or church leadership.

The purpose is to resolve the conflicts that have arisen by using an independent party who has no loyalties to either "side."

The longer I see this conflict played out, the better this option appears to be. Ideally, some sort of compromise could be reached on policies and procedures with the wise leadership of an independent conflict resolution specialist.

This would help those who want to air their problems without being rebuked for it and would also be a welcome relief to those who are caught in the crossfire trying to honestly answer questions but trying to defend the Pastor at the same time.

I honestly think this is the best way for all to heal from this struggle.

Tim said...

Folks,

I still would like to know if anyone is familar with them and their background. These are three of our deacon officers that appointed the CC.


Jeff Arnold

Dr. Scott Foster

Dr. Gary Passons

Tim said...

By the way, for those that may attack my wondering. This is not a personal issue. I just want to know if there are any conflicts of interest that may be present.

New BBC Open Forum said...

formerworkshipper wrote:

"Conflict resolution specialists are available to churches in the Southern Baptist Convention and are usually contacted by the Pastor and/or church leadership."

Your suggestion has some merit. However, I seem to recall one of these "conflict management specialists" coming on here a few weeks ago and just blasting us all to pieces for questioning our pastor about anything. He didn't sound very "neutral" to me. Also, having the pastor and church leadership select the person to arbitrate seems to be a bit of a conflict of interest to me.

NASS

Anonymous said...

Her is the new starting point or question to keep asking.

WHEN IS THE NEXT BUSINESS MEETING?

Someone call the Church and then post the date on the blog.

Anonymous said...

After we know the date, next hire a Christian attorney to come to the business meeting to speak for the members or to ask for another meeting to discuss specific issues.

Anonymous said...

Tim,

If I remember correctly, Dr. Scott Foster used to be heavily involved in EE. He used to be in a leadship position. Brian Miller did too.

That's all I know right now

Tim said...

charis,

Is Scott Foster married to one of Dr. Rogers daughters or am I thinking of someone else?

Anonymous said...

One of Dr. Roger's daughters lives in Atlanta. Gail and Mike ? Foster. I've seen Gail's husband and Scott Foster's not him

Karen said...

Tim,

Gail Rogers is married to Steve Foster. He used to be on staff, but they moved to TX. They both do Premier Jewelry last I heard.

karen

Anonymous said...

oh, she moved! :0
I didn't know that

Karen said...

charis is right - it's Mike Foster. Steve Rogers is in Florida; David Rogers is in Spain.

Anonymous said...

just remember. when you bring up these financial "issues", you are not only doubting the integrity of Brother Steve, but also everyone else in the Pastors Office and others around the church. Some that have worked for many many years at Bellevue under Dr. Rogers. Some of the most loved and trusted in our church you are doubting also.

Karen said...

Charis, I could be wrong about Gail, but that's the last I heard.

Anonymous said...

I wonder if Janice is willing to speak up?

Has anyone asked her?

Anonymous said...

the real ace posted: Guys, are you still beating the 'gonna get'em at the next business meeting drum'?

Conflict specialists are for conflicts...the only ones who have conflict are the ones who are attacking our pastor without merit.

Maybe we can get him to look into your little 'trash the pastor' party every day, and see if he can resolve that.



REPLY: great post! it is unreal, that this blog is suppose to be a blog of peaceful Christians. I see you had to change your name also. they will do whatever they can to confuse and deceive and only allow one side to be told. many on here seem to could care less about the "truth" and or reconciliation.

Tim said...

Ok, I just knew there was a Foster married in there somewhere. I just couldn't remember the name.

I knew for sure that it wasn't Jimmy or Greg. :) Smiles to those that have been around for awhile :)

Anonymous said...

Please forgive this far-too-extensive intrusion by an outsider. I have watched from a distance the problems with which BBC has been grappling for some months, and I am moved to tell you these things.

I was raised in a Southern Baptist church not far from Memphis. I was a member, and actually worked on the staff of several SBC congregations until the 'control wars' started in 1979. I left the SBC to avoid the hurt that was created during that period, and I am now a member of a sister denomination. However, most of my family members are still SBC folks.

I don't know who's right or who's wrong in these issues. I only know that good people on both sides are being hurt, and I can't believe that's what God intends for his church. In the final analysis, it doesn't matter who started the problems; it only matters who will find a means of ending them, of reconciling and reaffirming those in both camps.

Many years ago, when BBC was still downtown, my family brought my mother to Baptist Hospital for surgery. We found, as a result that she had a tumor that eventually took her life, some 18 months later. While trying to cope with the overwhelming shock and grief of this discovery, my dad -- the finest man to walk the earth since Christ Himself -- stopped in to visit with a minister at Bellvue. This ministare didn't know my dad at all. Dad is a deacon in our small SBC church in my hometown, and just needed somewhere to turn for comfort, assurance and prayer. He received all this and more from the Bellvue minister. Until the day of my death, I will be continually grateful for the ministry you provided in our hour of need.

I am deeply sorry that I have no answers to your present difficulties. But I do know someone who DOES have the answers, and I would encourage each of you to focus on Him and turn to Him for your resolution. Then begin finding ways to help each other, especially those who are in such pain over the matter.

In the eyes of Christ, I believe that there is no right or wrong in this issue. There are only those people who are working as healers and those who are not. There is no need for qualification, exception, explanation or anything else. I think right now you're being called to heal those who are hurting. Anything else that is happening is a tragic loss of time.

Sorry to be so wordy. I'll be praying for each of you, and for Bellvue Baptist.

Anonymous said...

sure am Ace. and they want to accuse us of confusion and or deceiving?? wow

Tim said...

charis,

My understanding, and it may be wrong, is that the Matriarch has made it clear in no uncertain terms that they are to keep themselves out of this mess. I have a lot of respect for them in that. They are absolutely not wanting their influence to be brought in to question in any of these troubles.

Anonymous said...

Well, before I go off to lunch...

I respect their decision, but, well it seems that the Rogers family's point of view would carry a lot of weight. Of course, the drop in attendance and tithes (especially Love offering money) seems to be carrying a lot of weight too.

Been Blessed,
Thank you for sharing that.

Anonymous said...

charis: please explain. the services Sunday were great. Both morning services and Sunday night with great attendance. Also, giving is up over the last year and the Love Offering was great as usual.

you see what you WANT to see.

Karen said...

hisservant-1,

I have a serious question for you:

Remember when we (not you and me - the blog in general) were discussing the possibility of having a church wide business meeting? You suggested "one mike and 7000 wouldn't work" or whatever you said.

What about having a meeting kind of like the Republican Convention. Each issue could be covered by a "delegation" if you will from each side of the issue to "debate" in front of the church. This format would probably be over a series of meetings, but this would give the membership the chance to pick which meetings they wanted to attend on what issue.

I think this is the only way that all sides of the issues will be heard. If Bellevue can entertain the TN Baptist Convention, why can't we do this? Inconvenient - yup, but in the long run, worth it. Long hours of hard work - yup, but in the long run, worth it. Bloody - let's hope not.

What night/day should we do these "conventions"? Pick one - I'm sure there are enough sheep that are hurting that would be willing to do anything, any day to get all the issues out on the table and completely hashed out.

If the SBC can remain civil during their conventions, surely we as a church body can do the same.

Just a suggestion,

Karen

Karen said...

Tim,

Got that obscure Jimmy/Greg reference! Finally, I get you! :)

Karen

Tim said...

karen,

I think you must be a yankee!

Tim said...

karen,

the rednecks laugh immediatiely, just so we can identify whose who here. so you guys that laugh immediately know who you are.

Karen said...

Tim,

Bite your tongue!

What do you think of my post to hisservant-1? I would have no problem w/ Charles & Pam Gremmillion, Riad Saba, Mark Sharpe, Richard Emerson, the McClerkins, you, andrew, NASS, SW&W, truth hunter, mom4, or WTB speaking for me in a meeting like that.

Tim said...

Well Folks,

I think I'm going to lunch as well. Somebodies got to many aces up their sleeve.

Bereans said...

For the record:
In the time of Dr. Lee and Dr. Pollard, all staff salaries, including those of the pastor, were published as part of the annual church budget.

Jeff Arnold: one-time deacon chairman and frequent deacon officer, was on the pastor search committee, current chairman of the Long Range Planning Committee; he's the "Arnold" in Fisher & Arnold, a large engineering firm in Memphis.

Dr. Gary Passons: current deacon officer, opthalmologist

Scott Foster: current deacon officer, Mgr of aircraft engineering at FedEx

Tim said...

karen,

so you are saying you wouldn't mind having a redneck like me speaking up for ya. well yeehah filley..:{)

Off to lunch now. I'll come back as stuffed as a tick at the pound.

Tim said...

Bereans,

Thanks for the info.

Anonymous said...

I hope the moderator empties the deck of Aces... just my opinion

Karen said...

Tim,

Sounds like a good idea - I'm going to lunch too.

Anonymous said...

What we have folks is elder rule by a close knit group of power brokers. The congregation needs to be awakened to this. I agree with Bin Wonderin:

We need:

1. An apology to the congregation for mocking us at Union City. After all, some of us didn't fall off the cabbage truck yesterday!

2. An admission the cheerleader tickets are not a legit moving expense and reimbursement to BBC.

3. An admission Dr. Gaines should have never given $25k to FUMC and an explanation of policy changes to prevent a repeat.

4. A policy for open books on Holy land trips and no overcharging of members. Free tickets for the host and wife are fine but not for anybody else

5. A monthly business meeting with open mike Q&A with each committee chairman. Transcripts on the web within a week;

6. A transparent committee selection process.

7. A good updated set of bylaws similar to GBC.

8. The signing of a public conflict of interest form for any member that has any business contract to provide services to the church. These people should be recused from committees that review bids for their services.

9. No church credit cards. Pay your own way and then turn in an expense report like I do at my job.

AND I would like to add...

10. A business meeting in accord with Matthew 18 to deal with the issues that remain related to Mark Sharpe and "the Dream"... AND any other loose ends that should have been dealt with months ago!!

11. The END of heavy handed dealing with ministers, staff, and members.

12. A whistle blower policy for ministers, staff, and members. Also:

13. Full disclosure of ministerial compensation: salary + benefit breakdown, etc.

14. Much greater congregational oversight of the current budget with a transparent policy for consideration of non-budgeted expenditures exceeding a reasonable amount.

15. Forgiveness for those in leadership who have allowed this to deteriorate to this point--AND consequences for their actions.

This would be a good start in my opinion!

Anonymous said...

Have you ever seen a cartoon where one of the characters swepts the dirt under the rug?

Some things I have observed from one of these cartoons.

It usually starts off by someone pointing out the house needs a cleaning because company`s on the way.

Here is what happens next:

First comes a big sigh because they don`t want to sweep the floor ( They really don`t mind the dirt themselves)

Then they begrudingly get out a broom and start to hit at the dirt

They are far too lazy to sweep it all up the right way so they pick up one end of the rug and start to sweep in under there because they are content to HIDE IT instead of get rid of it!

Then they smile because they aer satisified with less than a clean house and have worked their way into believeing the house is clean...ENOUGH for company s

Then another character comes in and accidently trips over the hump in the rug created by the dirt that has been hidden there.

Then the person who trips over the hump, goes staggering across the room, hits their head,falls down, breaks their arm and leg and ends up in the hospital.

I wonder if there is something spiritual we can reap from this.

I think we are all in the Bellevue hospital right now in need of tender loving care and all the Bellevue hospital staff has taken leave.

We are calling 911 from our own hospital beds!

Anonymous said...

the "real" ace...

"Headhunters"... hmmm... are you loosing your civil tone?

Anonymous said...

25+yrs@BBC said...
hisservant, Ace, MB, and the other lurking minions of the Bellevue oligarchy... Gooooo awaaaay! Shoo! Scrammmm! Your comments are predictable, devious, and unwanted here.


Whoever you are, that was a marvelously well-turned phrase!

"Lurking minions of the Bellevue oligarchy"? It looks great in writing, and rolls mellifluously from the tongue.

Apologies for my delay in applauding your use of the language.

--Mike

Anonymous said...

For any reading this who may be new... There are posters here who are trying to interfere with those trying to genuinely communicate.

They are transparent after a while.

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