Thursday, November 09, 2006

Deacons to Pledge Loyalty to Pastor Steve Gaines

The following letter was written by deacon chairman Chuck Taylor to the deacons:

Brothers,

At the conclusion of our Deacons meeting that followed the evening service, all who were present unanimously approved the following motion:

"The 2006 active Deacon Body of Bellevue Baptist Church met November 5th after the evening service and unanimously approved the following motion. We the active Deacon Body of Bellevue Baptist Church wish to convey to our Church family our affirmation of Dr. Steve Gaines as God’s appointed and God’s anointed Pastor of Bellevue Baptist Church. We commit ourselves before God and our Church family to serve with loyalty under his leadership and to free him up to do the work to which God has called him to do. We publicly demonstrate our loyalty to Pastor Gaines by signing our name to this motion and standing before the Church congregation in each of the morning worship services on November 19, 2006."

Over the next few days, each Vice Chairman will be calling the men in their group to go over the motion and answer any questions. The motion requires each Deacon to sign his name to the motion indicating his public approval of the motion, so please go to the Events Registration Center to sign it. If you have any reservations in signing this motion, please discuss it with your Vice Chairman. I want to reiterate that every Deacon that was present in the Deacons meeting following the service unanimously approved this motion, with the understanding they were to sign it and to stand before the congregation on November 19th. Our congregation needs to know where the Deacons stand during these challenging days.

Chuck


Interesting article: Preacher Rule According to the Scriptures

What do you think of this?

One answer per person, please.

Do you think it's Biblically sound for the deacons to sign a pledge of loyalty to the pastor?
Certainly. He's the spiritual authority of the church.
I don't know, but I see nothing wrong with it.
I don't know, but it bothers me.
No. We are to pledge allegiance to no man, only to God.
Free polls from Pollhost.com

257 comments:

1 – 200 of 257   Newer›   Newest»
New BBC Open Forum said...

Chuck Taylor wrote in the letter:

"Our congregation needs to know where the Deacons stand during these challenging days."

Yes, Mr. Taylor, we do. And we'd like to hear it from them.

NASS

StumblingServant said...

Yes, and we'd like to hear it from them without coercion.

New BBC Open Forum said...

Does any of this sound familiar?

Be sure to read the letter from pastor Micah Davidson about halfway down that page.

And there are comments here.

Am I the only one who finds it just a little spooky that the name of the church was "Gardendale"?

NASS

Tim said...

CONCERNING THE PLEDGE OF ALLIEGIENCE TO THE PASTOR

I know that there a few deacons who read these post daily, perhaps more than I am aware of.

Your alliegience belongs to no man. Your alliegience belongs to Christ and his church. There is absolutely no Biblical mandate that require or supports such a pledge.

The apostle Paul when faced with those that wanted pledge as his followers told them directly that Apollos planted and Paul watered but God provided the increase. It was also Paul that told the church follow me as I follow Christ. If Paul would not accept the alliegience of followers then by what right does Dr. Gaines have to do so.

I WILL PERSONALLY CONSIDER THIS AS HIGH TREASON AGAINST THE THRONE OF GOD, JESUS CHRIST AND HIS CHURCH.

I ALSO WILL CONSIDER THAT OUR CONGREGATION NEEDS TO BE IMMEDIATELY CALLED INTO A BUSINESS MEETING, DISMISS ANY DEACONS WHO SWEAR THERE ALLIEGIENCE TO ANYONE OTHER THAN CHRIST JESUS AND BEGIN REPLACING THEM WITH GODLY, GOD FEARING MEN.

THIS IS WRONG. FLAT WRONG. BLATANTLY WRONG. AND ABSOLUTELY UNBELIEVABLE THAT IT WAS APPROVED BY OUR DEACON BODY.

WHEN THE CHURCH IS NO LONGER STRIVES TO BE A REFLECTION OF CHRIST, THEN THE CHURCH NO LONGER HAS A PURPOSE FOR EXSISTENCE.

THESE ARE DESPERATE TIMES.

Bin Wonderin said...

This is the kind of thing you expect Catholics to do for the Pope.

I'm shocked anyone would even consider something lke this, much less sign it.

LibertyInChrist said...

This "pastor is master" action by unanimous vote of all deacons present at Bellevue Baptist church meeting reads right out of the playbook of Rick Warren's Purpose Driven Church and his Global Peace Plan. It is also almost exactly what happened at Gardendale Baptist Church in Corpus Christi, Texas, resulting in the ousting of 165 members (see: http://www.letusreason.org/Current61.htm), also documented in my book Rick Warren's Global Peace Plan vs Scriptural Teachings on Peace which describes what happens to members of churches who refuse to sign loyalty pledges to the pastor and/or refuse to sign Rick Warren covenants.

This only further confirms and corroborates my recent commentary entitled:

PURPOSE-DRIVEN TENNESSEE BAPTIST CONVENTION AT BELLEVUE BAPTIST: RICK WARREN COLLABORATORS

&

RESPONSE TO BELLEVUE BAPIST CHURCH DEACON DERRICK CALCOTE'S CHARGES OF SLANDER

The link to the post is on the Purpose-Driven thread at:
http://newbbcopenforum.blogspot.com/2006/10/purpose-driven.html
Scroll down to November 8 post, but the article is dated November 6, 2006.

SupportsGodsMan said...

Praise God for the Godly leadership of Chuck Taylor and our active Deacon Body.

Praise God that they are not ashamed to publically support God's Man for our church and for this time -- Dr. Steve Gaines.

Hopefully and prayerfully this will be the final measure needed to begin purging Bellevue of those
who refuse to support our Pastor....those who make it their practice to falsely accuse others with NO concrete proof of wrongdoing (only hear-say).

Hopefully and prayerfully your gossip and nit-picking will cease, and this "Blogspot" and others like it will shut down.

Anonymous said...

Interesting to note that "...every deacon that was present in the Deacons meeting..." unanimously approved the motion.

I wonder what percentage of the entire deacon body was present? I also wonder how the "vote" was taken. Voice? Individual? "All those opposed?"

New BBC Open Forum said...

Re the deacon body. How does something without a backbone stand?

NASS

Anonymous said...

"Saving Bellevue" is done.

You may stick a fork in the group.

If you men and women are in a mood to criticize a group of people, come read this morning's article at my place, and note the accompanying photo, straight from the pages of savingbellevue.com (before it vanished).

Your responses (or lack thereof) will be telling.

--Mike

BellevueFoundationHelp said...

I donn't really see a place to put this, so I'm going to post here. I believe this is a very important question to ask. This needs the front page!!

Why for the last 3 years has the Bellevue Foundation given current Deacons David Hamilton and Wayne Vander Steeg organization almost $600,00.00 ?

Can we get an account of how these men spent this money?

Who is the head of the Bellevue Foundation??

Why does the president of "ECS"
Evangelical Christian School, who is a deacon at Bellevue and former Chairman of the Deacon Board, paid almost $200,000.00 a year from "ECS" ?

Karen said...

Mike,

What are you talking about - what photo? I'm not being confrontational; I really want to know.

What happens to the deacons that didn't sign this pledge?

Karen

headoutofthesand said...

MB,

For (maybe the first time) once you are right. If, in fact, that picture was posted on the Saving Bellevue site, it was without a doubt the most ill-advised, inflammatory posting this whole mess has ever seen. It should be unanimously condemned.

Now, having said that...this site did not make that posting and for you to claim that anyone here who questions the leadership of the church is de facto supporting what the SavingBellevue site did is preposterous and offensive.

I realize you are having trouble getting people to comment on your site anymore, but really...

Karen said...

bellevuefoundationhelp,

Bob Dawkins is in charge of the Bellevue Foundation.

I don't know the answers to your other questions. Go to the other thread on the blog - there's a form you can download to get that question answered. Go the the meeting on Sunday morning and see if they'll answer your question.

Karen

New BBC Open Forum said...

Mike,

I don't need to read your article to know which photo you're talking about. I think it was in poor taste and told them so in no uncertain terms. We're all prone to the occasional lapse in judgement, and this was a definite lapse in judgement, a big one at that, or perhaps you could say it was "a mistake of the mind but not of the heart."

The point was being made (firsthand knowledge) that Steve Gaines is acting like a dictator. I can't argue with that, but I wouldn't have used a photo like that to illustrate my point.

Tell me, though, how is that any different from Steve Gaines standing in the pulpit and calling those members of his own flock with whom he disagrees "devils," "adversaries," and "witches"? I can provide the references for those if you're interested, but just go listen to the Sunday evening sermons from 9/24, 10/8, and 10/22. Also, the beginning of the 10/8 morning sermon. It doesn't justify publishing that photo, but I don't see any difference.

As "whatif..." just reminded everyone, this forum and the savingbellevue site are not affiliated other than through mutual links on the two pages. "We" don't control what's posted there, and "they" don't control what's posted here.

NBBCOF

Will McKay said...

Foundation Help,

Do you even have the slightest clue how the Bellevue Foundation works?

Why not ask Bob Dawkins instead of broadcasting your ignorance for all the world to see?

New BBC Open Forum said...

A must read.

New BBC Open Forum said...

Just a request, please. This particular thread is being linked to from another site and needs to stay "on topic" as much as possible. While the BF questions are interesting and no doubt legitimate, would you mind taking any discussion of that topic to the "New Financial Thread"?

Thank you for your cooperation!

NBBCOF

Will McKay said...

Ezekiel,

"Good questions that I doubt you will ever get answers to."

More pessimistic speculation.

I repeat... ASK BOB DAWKINS HOW THE BELLEVUE FOUNDATION WORKS.

Once you get the answer, you'll then laugh at your own ignorance.

Anonymous said...

"But what about..."

"But what about..."

No.

No answer is satisfactory, no attempt at mutuality enough. Committees and sub-committees form, but the public flaying continues.

Why, Steve Gaines is a dictator!

Why, they're demanding loyalty oaths!

Nonsense.

Tell me, though, how is that any different from Steve Gaines standing in the pulpit and calling those members of his own flock with whom he disagrees "devils," "adversaries," and "witches"?

Did he name names? Get all specific and such? Or did he decry the mindset?

It doesn't justify publishing that photo, but I don't see any difference.

Then more's the pity, because the difference is gaping. As with the movie Flags Of Our Fathers, sometimes one photo can capture a mindset--in this case, the mindset of the "saving Bellevue" types.

They're done.

And Forum regulars such as yourselves should be the first ones to tell them that enough, frankly, is enough.

--Mike

deceivedagain said...

Bob Dawkins is a wonderful Godly man who is in charge of overseeing the Bellevue Foundation. I've known Bob Dawkins for a long time and he's a man of conviction.

It's always been my understanding that the board of directors which is public information determine how money is distributed.

All of the ministries that the foundation contributes to are wonderful opportunities.

ezekiel said...

Straining, NASS...

Sorry about getting so deep in the well there....

The point I am trying to make is there is a reason for all this PDC stuff including the signing of statements. It is just part of the takeover happening now at Bellevue and other churches. The focus appears to be more on the Love offering, Building committee and exalting Dr. Gains. All made possible throught the generous donations of well meaning people. Do you not feel violated? 2 Cor 11:20

First Deacons sign allegiance, who is next, BFC teachers, Members?

I try to support my thoughts through the Word because I know we can trust what it says. What ever happened to yea,yea and nay,nay?

Tim said...

IT BECAME YEA, YEA

OTHERWISE LEAVE.

Bin Wonderin said...

First Deacons sign allegiance, who is next, BFC teachers, Members?

Yes. That is the purpose driven model. Everyone has to sign a covenant or "membership agreement" and abide by the rules.

Sunday School teachers will be the next group required to swear an oath of allegience to Dr. Gaines.

Forget about business meetings. We will probably not see one for a long time. If we do they will ignore Robert's Rules, set the agenda and not allow any questions or motions from the floor.

Accept and move on or leave seems to be the order of the day.

So tired of all this said...

I just can't understand why our leadership continues to resist truly dealing with the issues at hand. They CAN be dealt with in a positive manner and I really feel they can be resolved. I think both sides can get through this and we can all move along and be the church that the Lord expects to be. Let's just look at the election on Tuesday. President Bush because of his arrogance and I suppose to some extent ignorance cost the Republicans the control of Congress because he would not deal with a situation concerning Secretary Rumsfeld. Yes, I know there were other issues, but this was the BIG one. So, he deals with it....one day too late!!! I can't understand for the life of me why our leadership does not TRULY deal with these issues before it is too late. I sincerely plead with you leaders to deal with this NOW...not one day too late. I continue to believe that if the issues are TRULY dealt with, (not what has been done up until now...but truly dealt with), that ALL will be ok, those that need to be forgiven WILL BE, and we will be on our way to being an even stronger body of Christ.

Sincerely in Jesus name,

so tired of all this

So tired of all this said...

Let me clarify one thing from my last post. I WAS IN NO WAY TRYING TO COMPARE PASTOR GAINES WITH SECRETARY RUMSFELD AND I AM NOT SAYING THAT PASTOR GAINES SHOULD BE REPLACED. As a matter of fact, I love and respect Pastor Gaines and he was the man that I had hoped would be our new pastor. If he or any one else has been in error, that is what I was speaking of and, as I said, if things are truly dealt with, I am sure there is plenty of forgiveness in our great church. Just wanted to make this clear.

so tired of all this

CRRV said...

Honestly, I can't believe there is not an absolute overwhelming outcry against the picture that was posted on the SB site. It seems that posting such a picture is the worst thing that has been done by anybody on any side. The people who posted such a picture should loose all credibility as they have clearly lost objectivity. Also, anyone who does not denounce such an act WITH NO EXCEPTION OR EQUIVICATION has clearly equally lost objectivity in the matter. There should be outcry!

MOM4 said...

So Tired,
We are all tired of this and I agree that there are issues that should be dealt with immediately. The only reason that most of us can see is that there is something they do not want known. If you listen to Steve Gaines when he speaks about these issues, (especially at Union City)he has been stumbling all over himself. He knows that if we find out the truth about him and all this mess, he will be shamed. There is WAY too much smoke for no fire.

I was told by a DEACON that most of the deacons actually left before the meeting adjourned. The ones that left were told that they had to sign the "covenant" of support. This is blasphemy! If the deacons who are NOT in support of this do not make a stand on Nov 19th as well, we are in bigger trouble than we ever knew existed.

There was chastisement over a walkout that was suggested, yet Steve Gaines promotes such division in a worship service and the leadership and the deacons (those who are blindly following the leader)are allowing this charade, farce and unmitigated act of intimidation to go forth.
I am afraid that the lightening will strike!

choice_is_yours said...

Many people in this blog seem to be bothered. Just to clarify, are you asking for a chance to negotiate a tiny change in the wording (like the following)?


"We the active Deacon Body of Bellevue Baptist Church wish to convey to our Church family our affirmation of Jesus Christ as God’s appointed and God’s annointed Sheppard of Bellevue Baptist Church. We commit ourselves before God and our Church family to serve with loyalty under his leadership and to free him up to do the work to which God has called him to do. We publicly demonstrate our loyalty to Jesus Christ by signing our name to this motion and standing before the Church congregation in each of the morning worship services on November 19, 2006."

Over the next few days, each member of Bellevue will be calling and emailing the deacons whose last name starts with the same letter as their own to go over the motion and answer any questions. The motion requires each Deacon to sign his name to the motion indicating his public approval of the motion, so please sign this and turn it in to the Events Registration Center. If you have any reservations in signing this motion, please discuss it with Jesus. I want to reiterate that every Deacon that was present in the Deacons meeting following the service in his heart, should have unanimously approved this alternative motion, with the understanding they were to sign it and to stand before the congregation on November 19th. Our congregation needs to know where the Deacons stand during these challenging days.


MOM4 said...

Correction of this paragraph from the previous post:

"I was told by a DEACON that most of the deacons actually left before the meeting adjourned. The ones that WERE left were told that they had to sign the "covenant" of support"

CRRV said...

Yet again another post from a person who doesn't seem to have much of a problem with the picture. I am just amazed at the apparent hatred that has developed and that so many people are ok with the expression of such hatred through the picture that was posted. Is this typical of Christian response to conflict? (regardless of who is right)

MOM4 said...

Choice,
This is where the "rubber meets the road" and I would gladly sign it! Any Deacon who wouldn't needs to step down, likewise, any deacon who signs their allegiance to a mortal man, needs to step down as well.
All I can say to these Deacons is:
"Think, Man, Think!!!"

DeaconSolider said...

You must be kidding?
What in the world is next? I'm sure the pastor will take some scripture out of context to support his position.

Please Chuck, get real!!!

I guess after the signing, the deacons will be asked to then drink the cool aid?? Not me..

Truth Hunter said...

So tired of all this,

"if things are truly dealt with, I am sure there is plenty of forgiveness in our great church."

I agree with you. The problem is they have given us the impression nothing is being truthfully dealth with.

I can forgive a lot of things. I for one, cannot forgive the pastor, if he lied about use of the credit cards. Their use and a subsequent admission would have been forgiveable. Their use followed by an emphatic denial is unforgiveable. Likewise, I cannot forgive deacons who are complicit in covering over the truth.

Let me be clear, I can forgive in the Christian sense. My use of the word "forgive" means I cannot overlook and remain under their leadership. If that has happened, they have forfeited their right to lead me and my family. The rest of you can decide how much forgiveness you have.

How's that for defining terms, MB?

CRRV said...

does nobody seriously care? Is everyone hoping that the picture will just go away? "Let's just ignore it and it will go away." Good strategy - I guess.?

DeaconSolider said...

I think the problem is we have some Democrates running the Church.

Sorry, a littlr humor.

Truth Hunter said...

crrv,

What photo are you talking about? I just went to Saving Bellevue and did not see a photo?

Someone please help me here.

New BBC Open Forum said...

choice,

You've got the right idea, but perhaps a little more editing is in order.

Try this:

"We, the active Deacon Body of Bellevue Baptist Church, wish to convey to our Church family our affirmation of Jesus Christ as God’s One and Only Appointed and Annointed Shepherd of Bellevue Baptist Church and pledge our allegiance to no man. We commit ourselves before God and our Church family to serve with loyalty under His Divine leadership and to prayerfully and Scripturally hold ourselves and our leaders accountable to God. We publicly demonstrate our loyalty to Jesus Christ by signing our name to this motion and standing before the Church congregation in each of the morning worship services on November 19, 2006.

"Over the next few days, each member of Bellevue will be calling and emailing the deacons whose last name starts with the same letter as their own to go over the motion and answer any questions. The motion requires each Deacon to sign his name to the motion indicating his public approval of the motion, so please sign this and turn it in to the Events Registration Center. If you have any reservations in signing this motion, please discuss it with Jesus. If after prayerful consideration you decide you should not sign this resolution, you will be removed from your position as a deacon at Bellevue Baptist Church and offered Christian counseling as it would appear you are in need of an attitude adjustment. I want to reiterate that every Deacon that was present in the Deacons meeting following the service, in his heart, should have unanimously approved this alternative motion, with the understanding he was to sign it and to stand before the congregation on November 19th. Our congregation needs to know where the Deacons stand during these challenging days."

CRRV said...

check mike bratton's blog. He mentions it earlier in the comments this morning and posted it on his blog before SB took it off. It is horrible and sinful.

Anonymous said...

crrv,

Yes, people are outraged by the posting you are referring to; however, the post is down (except for Mike's website since he prefers to keep the controversy alive). Most of us on this forum prefer not to visit and/or participate on Mike's forum, for various reasons. It is somewhat disingenuous of you to criticize the posters on this blog for not criticizing something most of them have not even seen. The post is gone. It was in bad taste. Let it go...

Ed_T said...

Mike, you seem to not understand that there are not "folks" who run the web site. Only one person is responsible for what shows up on the web site as far as I know and I've had several issues with things there. You are misinformed if you think that site has the "stamp of approval" of all concerned.

This "loyalty oath" is senseless. I haven't heard anybody that I can recall say Steve Gaines is not God's appointed man for Bellevue; however, that doesn't mean he is above being questioned about any actions he may take as pastor.

This is the equivalent of political grandstanding and shows to me that the pastor and deacons have no intention of addressing any other issues, nor do they care about those with concerns, regardless of what they may say.

I also find it interesting that to date all we have heard from the Rogers family about this is "no comment". While they may desire to stay above the fray, I find their silence deafening.

Ed Thompson

Truth Hunter said...

crrv,

Thank you. I agree with you it is reprehensible and outrageous.

For a long time I have believed Mr. Haywood has done his cause harm by sensationalizing his site. I agree with his mission, not his methods.

wondering said...

This is not a 3 ring circus, this is our Church. Will we also have the marching band and a parade after the signing. Will this document be put on display out in the hall. Who knows, maybe the pastor will mail all members a copy. Will the media be allowed in? I guess this is a historical event.

Karen said...

God Bless you, Sister Pam!

Thank you for your eloquent and to the point email. I feel bad for you that your last letter were received and dismissed by so many deacons. That's not a way to act for men that we trust to lead our church.

Jim Jones needed loyalty, didn't he? He demanded it and killed everyone that gave it to him. I'm not saying there's hit out on me or anyone else, but I am scared for my church.

God is in control, but I don't know what He's up to. I'm holding steady, but physically ill over all this.

Have a great day!

Karen

CRRV said...

here is my problem. I know nothing of what is going on. I have never attended Bellevue and I will never attend Bellevue. But I have just recently started reading all of this stuff because I am concerned about what appears to be serious allegations. In a day when pastors like Haggard are going through his problem, allegations of impropriety should be taken seriously. Clearly, many on this blog have serious concerns... but, like it or not the SB site has become the "standard voice" for those who are concerned. When something like that is posted it is in everyone's interest to severely reprimand our brother or sister not only that they might feel a need to publicly apologize but so that important issues are not discredited. Take me for example. I no longer give much credence to accusations levied by the SB site, since it embodies great hypocrisy to accuse one for Christian misconduct while executing grievous sins yourselves. Finally, it also says something a bout a group of people who are involved and do not speak out against such wrongdoing. I would hope that your lack of response does not indicate the attitude of your own hearts.

CRRV said...

by the way. I resent having someone tell me "let it go." It is a serious sin which occurred especially considering the current environment. (Pastor impropriety, war on terror, and other various examples that I could use) It should not be let go by anyone until we know that the one who has done such an obvious wrong thing is contrite. How can he or she demand apology from anyone if apology is not demanded from this?

CRRV said...

one other thing. Like I said I am new to learning of these accusations and am not aware of "enemy blogs" that I should not reference

ezekiel said...

crrv......... I have not seen the picture, assume it was pretty bad. Apparently someone had enough sense to realize their mistake and take it down. Apparently Mike doesn't have enough sense to keep it down. Now just who is using this as a statement?

choice_is_yours said...

MIKE BRATTON: see disclaimer at the end :)

About the picture on Bratton's blog. He calims it came from Saving Bellevue but he has no proof. It is just his word.

For all I know the picture got posted on some website by accident. There seems to be no supporting text other than this public loyalty commitment thing.

Oh, wait... Bratton is spreading rumor and gossip... he didn't actually see the image himself. I quote him thusly and like so, "A friend e-mailed me about a disturbing image he found on their website".

MIKE BRATTON: all of the above is satire. There was some sarcasm but I clicked "no sarcasm" on my spell check and checked again.

You invited (below) this comical reply, so please don't be mad :)

I never would have seen the picture but that you invited me to your blog.

----------------------------
Mike Bratton said...
"Saving Bellevue" is done.

You may stick a fork in the group.

If you men and women are in a mood to criticize a group of people, come read this morning's article at my place, and note the accompanying photo, straight from the pages of savingbellevue.com (before it vanished).

Your responses (or lack thereof) will be telling.

--Mike

9:24 AM, November 09, 2006

Bell22 said...

I have a question How many deacons were there at the end of this meeting,there were reports that I have seen on this blog that there were some that left.I would like a truthful answer not a silly one either.Mike take that picture down please and Saving Bellevue you should remove this blog from your site also. Neither you or Mike are being Christ like at all right now.

CRRV said...

Deciding that something was a bad idea and seeking forgiveness are two different things. Just to clarify... I am not the offended party. I find the picture offensive but I am not the offended party. However it seems as though if he is sorry for his sin, it should be expressed to all who might have seen it and who did find it offensive. I do not know whoever put up the picture so I can only assume that whoever would post such a hateful picture would want to make it clear of their contriteness if it were so. Besides, I am not talking about the poster of the picture. I am merely surprised that there is not more outrage from those in this blog. (who do have access to the picture)

Anonymous said...

xd9x19 said...
Mike, you seem to not understand that there are not "folks" who run the web site. Only one person is responsible for what shows up on the web site as far as I know and I've had several issues with things there. You are misinformed if you think that site has the "stamp of approval" of all concerned.


It is the hub of your group's activity, is it not? There are reciprocal links, are there not?

This "loyalty oath" is senseless. I haven't heard anybody that I can recall say Steve Gaines is not God's appointed man for Bellevue; however, that doesn't mean he is above being questioned about any actions he may take as pastor.

Referring to something as a "loyalty oath" when it is not is... well, let's just say it's disingenuous.

This is the equivalent of political grandstanding and shows to me that the pastor and deacons have no intention of addressing any other issues, nor do they care about those with concerns, regardless of what they may say.

Committees and sub-committees devoted to just such things notwithstanding, is that right?

I also find it interesting that to date all we have heard from the Rogers family about this is "no comment". While they may desire to stay above the fray, I find their silence deafening.

The technical term for that is "projection," Ed. When people do not voice an opinion on an issue, the only legitimate inferences possible are that they either do not have an opinion, or have not chosen to publicize it. Since it would, no doubt, be mistaken to presume that the Rogers family would not have an opinion, the only other legitimate option is that they choose not to express it.

Trying to pin a "why" on that is wishful thinking, Ed--sheer projection. Please don't engage in it.

--Mike

SundayNov19 said...

Are we suppose to clap after the signing and activities.? Are we suppose to say amen?? Are we suppoes to pray after? Are we suppose to sing after the pastor signes his name? Are we supppose to stand and salute?

If all the deacons don't sign their names, is it a sccuess? Are we going to sing Kum-ba-yah??

After the deacons sign their names, does that mean everything is ok??

WOW, where do we go from here and what's next??

lightandtruth said...

I am concerned that this pledging of support does not square up with Matthew 5:34-37 and James 5:12.

This is how the world operates -- a carnal means of dividing a group of people. I think light and truth are the only real Scriptural means of division.

Interesting to me that the only real oaths that are good and valid in Scripture are those that God Himself makes. There are however many examples in Scripture of oaths made by men to do evil.

Anonymous said...

Outrage? Not so much.

Cries for public repentance? Not so much.

Accommodating behavior that compares deacons to Fascists? Yes, there's plenty of that, sadly.

The early returns are in, and the response are, indeed, telling. And as I've shared with someone else earlier today, it brings me nothing but sadness to see it.

--Mike

SundayNov19 said...

Is the pastor going to sing another solo after the signing? I'm not being mean, but the pastor has sang more solo than any choir member. If he does, he should just join the choir.

CRRV said...

does anyone have a comment on any Biblical principles about what Scripture says about a person who would post a picture of Steve Gains and Bellevue Church dressed up as terrorists saluting Hitler? Does Scripture have anything to say about that type of action or that type of person or people who defend it by not forcefully preaching the need for repentance.

CRRV said...

again, why muddy the waters if you have legitimate concerns by complaining about solos? why? It does just make you sound mean and moreso like you are trying to pick a fight. Again, I am just speaking about perception. Do you know how you look to an outsider like me? You are giving credibility to Gains! It is ironic that you are defeating your own purposes.

Anonymous said...

Mike said:

Referring to something as a "loyalty oath" when it is not is... well, let's just say it's disingenuous.

Ah, another dismissive MB post...here, let me try to help you, Mike.

Loyalty
: the quality or state or an instance of being loyal


Loyal
1 : unswerving in allegiance: as in : faithful to a private person to whom fidelity is due.


Oath
1 a (1) : a solemn usually formal calling upon God or a god to witness to the truth of what one says or to witness that one sincerely intends to do what one says (2) : a solemn attestation of the truth or inviolability of one's words b : something (as a promise) corroborated by an oath



"We commit ourselves before God and our Church family to serve with loyalty under his leadership and to free him up to do the work to which God has called him to do. We publicly demonstrate our loyalty to Pastor Gaines by signing our name to this motion..."

I'll let everyone else decide for themselves if the above constitutes a "loyalty oath" or not since you seem to have your own opinion as to that term's validity.

headoutofthesand said...

CRRV,

Then I don't know what to tell you except that you start your own blog with the express purpose of getting the poster to be "contrite". How you plan to do that I have no idea, but as woundedandbleeding pointed out, it has been taken down and none of us know the reasons behind that except that person and God.

I am content to let God judge a person's heart without needing to have a person's "contrite", public apology, flogging, or whatever else you feel is appropriate.

So, if you simply can't let it go, it is very easy to make your own blog, post here to let everyone know about it and then you are free to pursue this issue to your heart's content.

By the way, if you yourself weren't offended by the post (as you stated earlier), then how exactly can you be so outraged at the lack of outrage by others?

choice_is_yours said...

Why not give Pastor Gaines and the staff a pledge that neither he nor any of the staff will lose their jobs as the result of cooperating in investigating these matters?

Nobody has called for the pastor to be fired.

He/they need to stop feeling threatened about their jobs and careers.

And perhaps all concerned should go ahead and pray about forgiving him/them for whatever might be hidden?

Jesus tells us to forgive so many times: friends, family, enemies... unconditionally.

There should be an attempt to reassure these people.

It is a matter of trying to biblically address systemic issues.

There is no need to change name plates on the doors.

What happened in the U.S. elections this week is not what anyone is contemplating for BBC.

Just give them that assurance.

Then they won't be doing this pledge at all in the first place.

Show unbelievable amounts of inspirational Christian charity.

Everyobdy knows that Dr. Rogers is gone and business as usual just won't work any more because nobody can ever fill his shoes.

It is patently obvious that the thirty years worth of standard procedure need careful review to be more standardized and allow for Dr. Gaines to do more works for Jesus.

He's getting a lot of pressure, and he is beyond any mortal person's ability to respond to the situation. He's being pushed into sin. It does not excuse him, but there needs to be a toning down.

Again, I feel I have elevated my voice slightly, please forgive me.

Moderator, I apreciate so many things you have doen, but
every thread on this blog to date has been about controversial things or their near-parallels.

We have to get some balance with non-controversial Christian living topics on this blog.

Please take this comment gently as I want it to be perceived.

SundayNov19 said...

Mike, FYI... we understand the meaning of loyal. For those who don't, have a dictionary so we don't need the difinations.

I believe we {deacons} know the contex the pastor is using the term.

Sunday Novenber 19, 2006 pledge does not line up with scripture...

CRRV said...

I am disturbed by apparent hypocrisy of people who do not demand one seek forgiveness for some gross conduct and yet turn around and demand an act of contrition from someone else. Correct me if I am wrong but some of the main thrusts behind the SB site is to work so that Gains seeks forgiveness from his sins- not behind the scenes but publicly. I think it is interesting that nobody here has a problem with that same person demanding apology from Gains not asking for forgiveness themselves for a much more outrageous public act of sin.

Truth Hunter said...

"Why not give Pastor Gaines and the staff a pledge that neither he nor any of the staff will lose their jobs as the result of cooperating in investigating these matters?"

My answer--Because we don't know what they have done.

We can forgive things like the mistreatment of Brother Whitmire, the fence incident, the Union City fiasco.

However, how can we NOT fire someone who misused credit cards (IF he did it, and that is a big IF), stood in the pulpit and lied about it, and then drug us through this for months?

Will McKay said...

Choice,

"Nobody has called for the pastor to be fired."

Ummm... are you sure about that? No wait... you're right... he was asked to RESIGN. I guess that makes it palatable.

It's funny... those calling for crrv to "let it go" wouldn't dare do so with anyone they've attacked.

Again... DOUBLE-STANDARDS ABOUND!

Buried in garbage and sloshing through filth,

Gnats

CRRV said...

Let me again site one more example of hypocrisy. It has been suggested that I leave and go start my own blog. This sounds very similar to many peoples complaints about the pastor who says "if you have a problem leave and go find another church." hypocrisy hurts an argument. If you believe the allegations to be true, the best thing you can do is not fall into the same acts yourselves.

Will McKay said...

CRRV,

Excellent point.

Unfortunately, it is logical and basic, and therefore will probably be wasted with most of those here.

You've entered into a fool's debate. You'll never win and only lose.

Bellevue Friend said...

Friends,

As I have stated before I have a deep love and respect for the Lord's Church that is called Bellevue. I also have deep love and admiration and appreciation for Dr. Rogers. As a Pastor I have had my share of conflict and hurt.

I know what your experiencing is so very hard. Warren Weiersby once wrote that: When we go through a testing time God holds in one hand a thermomater and in the other a stop watch! When it gets to much He will end it.

You must wonder Why are we going through this? I don't know fully, I will say that we know "the trying of our faith is more prescious than Gold"

As a Pastor may I say that the Deacons support and affirmation is critical.

I don't see it as blind affirmation, but rather the collective deacon body after examining concerns, finds the Pastor to be a man of integrity and are standing in support of His leadership... but not in deference to their supreme loyalty to our Lord Jesus Christ. In the absence of a Business Meeting it appears your only course of expressing concerns is through the Ad hoc committee.

I have been suprized by the relativly few concerns recived by your ad hock committee. Not that each concern should be treated with careful and Godly consideration.

Please know that I firmly believe that a Pastor should be in his own Church on Wednesday nights. It is not to much to ask and expect that staff has only so many aloted days to be away in revival and other ministry settings.

I further believe your Finance team should not only know what staff makes but be in charge and control (Granted from the Congregation) to approve of rases. Accountability is a good thing!

Bellevue, you have always been a wonderfully generous people, and I know you understand the particular challenges in Pastoring a Church of your size.

Dr. Gaines should be well compensated, and I know you agree...but I believe there should be more openess about the finances.

To the young lady who has yet to begin a walk with the Lord Jesus...be assured often his people act in ways that can make you wonder is it worth it. It is....Jesus will never let you down!Go to www.MarkCahill.org He has a lot to say about the importance on giving The Lord Jesus access to your heart!

Someone well said: How many prodicals (seekers) are kept out of the Kingdom of God by those who claim to be in it!

On a final note....I wish this blog had spell check:)!

Ed_T said...

crrv, let me toss out something that has nothing to do with the web site.

Dr. Gaines stood before 4000+ members of BBC on September 24th and admitted to "stepping over an itty-bitty" fence. To illustrate, he bent down and put his hand at knee-level when saying this. Said fence is KNOWN to be 4-4.5 feet high.

So is this:
1) deceitful
2) lying
3) irrelevant
4) truthful

Do we need to post the video?

Will McKay said...

Oh goodness, the ever-moving target...

Dot said...

I do not understand how someone so arrogant as Gaines can possibly think that a list of signatures is going to make any difference in mess. Too bad he doesn't spend as much time trying to solve the problems as he does in creating new ones. This is just another mistake that anyone with wisdom can see through.

cccrvc said...

To: gnats astraining and crrv,

The truth hurts sometimes doesn't it? Don't be afraid of the truth. There have been some things said and done on both sides of the issues that I'm sure people wish they had never said or done. My problem is with anyone who does something and refuses to admit their wrongdoing. I never saw a picture on the web but evidently whoever put it up took it down. Is this issue the only issue you can talk about? Does it not concern you that the pastor is asking deacons to sign this document? What is going to happen to a deacon that refuses to sign the document. What if the Holy Spirit doesn't permit them sign it? Is it ok for the pastor to then remove that deacon from serving? I'd like to know more about the intentions of the pastor and the leadership that surround him as to what they are going to do to ones who don't sign. I hope no man signs anything by intimidation.
This issue we are discussing about the pastor's view that he is the "Supreme" ruler of the church is what every other issue for the past 6 months surrounds. Take away the pastor's position on being the "Supreme" ruler and everything for the past 6 months goes away.

CRRV said...

xd9...,
you have mistaken me for one who is defending Gains. I am not. I do not know him. Until I saw "the picture" I was beginning to think that Gains had obviously done wrong. I became suspect of the legitamacy of some of the accusations when I saw the picture as only a deeply sinning heart would post such a despicable image. Know I have no idea who to believe as there appears to be great sin on all sides. Even from most on this blog who have little more than unfortunate displeasure toward the unrepentant poster of the picture.

Anonymous said...

I share this with amazement and tears in my eyes...there is a warning here for us all! We must be careful with whom we associate and align ourselves. We must align ourselves with God and His Word alone. Do not look to any man, any group, any cause. We must be willing to stand alone, and through obedience to God, even lay down our lives in devotion to Him. God reigns eternal.

Is the purging, which is an obvious result of not signing the deacon’s resolution, is it from God or man? While God in His permissive will may be allowing it, is it His best for us? Are we acting on our own and forcing God to “work all things together”?

Do not restrict the mysterious and miraculous from God. Do not use human reason. Obey God’s Word. Let the Holy Spirit of God Himself speak loudly to each one of his servants and may he judge in righteousness and remove quickly those who are not of His flock. May His will be done.

In Daniel 6, the officials had evil intention in their heart. They wanted power and were willing to do what it took to get it. They didn’t have anything in particular against Daniel, except, he had what they wanted – the king’s favor.

King Darius lacked wisdom and insight. Perhaps he was blinded by his pride and deafened by their proclamation of loyalty. Whatever his heart, his decision to join them, empowered them. Please hear and understand, I am not assigning guilt, arrogance, evil intent, or any other negative attribute, or positive attribute for that matter, to any person or party of this dire problem. I merely suggest we all listen to the Word of God and ask Him to clearly and loudly speak to us individually. For me, as I read this passage during my morning devotional, a warning came: “be careful with whom you align yourself”.

Am I led by justice, humility and kindness? Is wisdom my guard? Am I obeying the command to love God and man, to forgive quickly, and hold no grudge against another?

Consider…

Dan 6:1-28
1 It seemed good to Darius to appoint 120 satraps over the kingdom, that they should be in charge of the whole kingdom,
2 and over them three commissioners (of whom Daniel was one), that these satraps might be accountable to them, and that the king might not suffer loss.
3 Then this Daniel began distinguishing himself among the commissioners and satraps because he possessed an extraordinary spirit, and the king planned to appoint him over the entire kingdom.
4 Then the commissioners and satraps began trying to find a ground of accusation against Daniel in regard to government affairs; but they could find no ground of accusation or {evidence of} corruption, inasmuch as he was faithful, and no negligence or corruption was {to be} found in him.
5 Then these men said, "We shall not find any ground of accusation against this Daniel unless we find {it} against him with regard to the law of his God."
6 Then these commissioners and satraps came by agreement to the king and spoke to him as follows: "King Darius, live forever!
7 "All the commissioners of the kingdom, the prefects and the satraps, the high officials and the governors have consulted together that the king should establish a statute and enforce an injunction that anyone who makes a petition to any god or man besides you, O king, for thirty days, shall be cast into the lions' den.
8 "Now, O king, establish the injunction and sign the document so that it may not be changed, according to the law of the Medes and Persians, which may not be revoked."
9 Therefore King Darius signed the document, that is, the injunction.
10 Now when Daniel knew that the document was signed, he entered his house (now in his roof chamber he had windows open toward Jerusalem); and he continued kneeling on his knees three times a day, praying and giving thanks before his God, as he had been doing previously.
11 Then these men came by agreement and found Daniel making petition and supplication before his God.
12 Then they approached and spoke before the king about the king's injunction, "Did you not sign an injunction that any man who makes a petition to any god or man besides you, O king, for thirty days, is to be cast into the lions' den?" The king answered and said, "The statement is true, according to the law of the Medes and Persians, which may not be revoked."
13 Then they answered and spoke before the king, "Daniel, who is one of the exiles from Judah, pays no attention to you, O king, or to the injunction which you signed, but keeps making his petition three times a day."
14 Then, as soon as the king heard this statement, he was deeply distressed and set {his} mind on delivering Daniel; and even until sunset he kept exerting himself to rescue him.
15 Then these men came by agreement to the king and said to the king, "Recognize, O king, that it is a law of the Medes and Persians that no injunction or statute which the king establishes may be changed."
16 Then the king gave orders, and Daniel was brought in and cast into the lions' den. The king spoke and said to Daniel, "Your God whom you constantly serve will Himself deliver you."
17 And a stone was brought and laid over the mouth of the den; and the king sealed it with his own signet ring and with the signet rings of his nobles, so that nothing might be changed in regard to Daniel.
18 Then the king went off to his palace and spent the night fasting, and no entertainment was brought before him; and his sleep fled from him.
19 Then the king arose with the dawn, at the break of day, and went in haste to the lions' den.
20 And when he had come near the den to Daniel, he cried out with a troubled voice. The king spoke and said to Daniel, "Daniel, servant of the living God, has your God, whom you constantly serve, been able to deliver you from the lions?"
21 Then Daniel spoke to the king, "O king, live forever!
22 "My God sent His angel and shut the lions' mouths, and they have not harmed me, inasmuch as I was found innocent before Him; and also toward you, O king, I have committed no crime."
23 Then the king was very pleased and gave orders for Daniel to be taken up out of the den. So Daniel was taken up out of the den, and no injury whatever was found on him, because he had trusted in his God.
24 The king then gave orders, and they brought those men who had maliciously accused Daniel, and they cast them, their children, and their wives into the lions' den; and they had not reached the bottom of the den before the lions overpowered them and crushed all their bones.
25 Then Darius the king wrote to all the peoples, nations, and {men of every} language who were living in all the land: "May your peace abound!
26 "I make a decree that in all the dominion of my kingdom men are to fear and tremble before the God of Daniel; for He is the living God and enduring forever, and His kingdom is one which will not be destroyed, and His dominion {will be} forever.
27 "He delivers and rescues and performs signs and wonders in heaven and on earth, who has {also} delivered Daniel from the power of the lions."
28 So this Daniel enjoyed success in the reign of Darius and in the reign of Cyrus the Persian.
(NAS)

Will McKay said...

C3,

1. I've personally experienced no pain from the truth, other than the fact that you and others refuse to acknowledge it when it is presented.

2. I'm not afraid of truth; I have no reason to be considering I haven't fought against it (as some here have).

Truth is never equal to unsubstantiated accusation. Check and look at all of the SB, Mark Sharpe, and NEWBBC allegations that have been squashed with factual evidence.

allofgrace said...

Something occurred to me this morning…this whole mess has had my life consumed for the last several weeks. What occurred to me is the simple question…why? The simple truth of the matter is….God doesn’t “need” me, Steve Gaines, you, Bellevue Baptist Church…or for that matter, the whole SBC. The very fact that any of these even EXIST is due to nothing more than the sheer condescending grace of Almighty God…what could any of those in that list possibly ADD to God? I’m quite certain of one thing….His kingdom was advancing before Bellevue was a thought in anyone’s head…or you or I or anyone else were even a twinkle in our daddies’ eyes, and if tomorrow all of us and Bellevue Baptist church disappeared from the earth and became nothing but a byword, His kingdom will still advance. God has and will always have a faithful remnant, preserved by His OWN power. I came to Bellevue looking for stability in a church, and one that had a singles department to meet my particular “needs”. Now I see I made the same fatal error Israel did when they cried out for a king like the other nations had…and boy howdy did God ever give them one….in spades. As I see it the real choices here are simple….for those who feel that Bellevue is going the way of Balaam…find a part of that faithful remnant and worship and serve there…for those who are of the “my pastor right or wrong” group, or who are convinced that Dr Gaines is the “appointed, anointed” man of God’s choosing…then by all means stay and have him…worship at his feet…hang on his every word…build a shrine to him if you want…do whatever you think God would want you to do….all I want is a church that worships God alone….not the pastor, not the programs, not the “worship” itself, or the church and all it’s trappings. Lord, help us to see that YOU and your GLORY alone are all that matters.

Truth Hunter said...

Gnats,

It takes actual evidence to squash allegations. No evidence has been presented.

The pastor's word is not evidence of anything. Same goes for reports from Chip Freeman, Chuck Taylor and Harry Smith.

Ben said...

For what it is worth, I would like to submit the perspective of an outsider.

I know that the internet, blogs, and emails, etc. offer a convenient and practical way to communicate. I realize that it seems to be the most expeditious method for getting answers to your questions, and I realize that the lack of disclosure of information is the basis of many church members' frustration. Seemingly, this ongoing public internet conversation is the solution to your problems, but I think it is actually exacerbating your pain.

This blog (and the other blogs that came before it), the savingbellevue website, the youtube video, the audio files, the emails, etc. are all being made available to any internet spectator -- me, for example. Do you really want this? Let's suppose that your church leaders are all as shady and suspicious as many of you are suspecting. Do you really want that to be broadcast around the Baptist Convention, around the nation, or even the globe?

Love covers sin. Love also hopes for the best. It doesn't sweep sin under the rug, or let it fester. If sin is present in the body, love addresses sin with confrontation, for the good of the offender. It lovingly corrects error. But love does not broadcast sin. Whether your pastor and leaders are righteous or unrighteous, the way they are being treated by you, their flock, is unloving. Your specualtions and gossip are harmful to his reputation, and to your own reputations.

Moreover, the comments that are being posted and the emails that are being published are not in a temperament that manifests an aroma of Christ. Most of what I am reading is not kind or humble. These words are laced with bitterness, suspicion, covetousness, pride, selfish ambition, and sarcasm. Is this the reputation that you want to achieve for your church or your Christ that you claim to love?? You may feel that you are defending the truth, but in my humble opinion, you are shaming yourselves. I wouldn't want to associate myself with a church that is biting and devouring itself to death.

You can cast the blame on your leaders, and you can point your fingers at their mistakes, but you could also do well to step back and examine yourselves. Let all bitterness wrath and clamor be put away from you. Crucify your flesh and its desires. Spend the time you might have spent reading these comments or writing these comments and devote yourselves to prayer instead.

ezekiel said...

allofgrace...

Make sure you let me know where you are when you find it! I have been thinking the same thing!

Anonymous said...

ScaredOfTheTruth? said... I'll let everyone else decide for themselves if the above constitutes a "loyalty oath" or not since you seem to have your own opinion as to that term's validity.

Thing of it is, whoever you are, either a thing is or it isn't. (Try saying that three times fast.) Opinions don't fly here. Either the statement of affirmation is a loyalty oath to Pastor Gaines, or it isn't; since it isn't, to say otherwise is wrong.

SundayNov19 said...
Mike, FYI... we understand the meaning of loyal. For those who don't, have a dictionary so we don't need the difinations.

I believe we {deacons} know the contex the pastor is using the term.


I take it, then, that you're another deacon who just can't bring himself to sign his name?

And, last I checked, it was Chuck Taylor's letter, not Pastor Gaines'.

Sunday Novenber 19, 2006 pledge does not line up with scripture...

In what way? Because it reaffirms the standard job description of a deacon as someone who supports his pastor and frees him to do other work? Because it acknowledges that God is in control of filling a pastorate? What, precisely, "does not line up"?

--Mike

Anonymous said...

Truth Hunter said...
Gnats,

It takes actual evidence to squash allegations. No evidence has been presented.

The pastor's word is not evidence of anything. Same goes for reports from Chip Freeman, Chuck Taylor and Harry Smith.


Have you stopped beating your spouse/parent/child/pet? (Your pseudonym precludes my being more specific, unfortunately.) I haven't seen any evidence that you haven't stopped.

Remember, your word isn't evidence of anything. I demand to see hard evidence that your spouse/parent/child/pet is recovering from the vicious beatings you've administered, and that you've ceased administering them. We need actual evidence to squash those nasty allegations.

--Mike

Custos said...

A bit of a sham resolution. A prerequisite for it being legitimate is for everyone to sign it. So to achieve the prerequisite it needs, the resolution demands its prerequisite. In other words, the text requires everyone to sign it so that it can require everyone to sign it.

This is like passing a law that says "Under this law that is signed by everyone, everyone must sign this law."

Will McKay said...

Hunter,

"It takes actual evidence to squash allegations. No evidence has been presented."

That is an absolute joke.

But you'll accept spurrious, unqualified allegations from others before documented proof from the names you listed.

You have more problems than pastoral leadership and integrity.

Custos said...

Deacons, if you're going to stand for your convictions, now is the time. The choice is upon you, whether you have wanted to take a side or not.

As of November 19, complacent assent will equal capitulation and compromise of conviction. Stand strong men--you are priests and kings. It's time to act accordingly.

Josh

CRRV said...

ok so let me review quickly what we have seen today...

The day began with a picture of bellevue dressed up as terrorists saluting Hitler. Then when I objected and suggested that we all rise up and demand accountability for such a disturbing posting I was told to leave and go start my own blog by someone objecting to Gaines telling them to leave bellevue and find another church. Then, very few people express almost no concern for the picture since it was taken down (I guess you can do anything without seeking forgiveness if you immediately stop). And then we have the outrageous example of accusing someone of beating children and/or wife/husband. I am glad to know that Jesus is smiling at all of our behavior. I know he is thinking, "that is exactly how I would handle it." Excuse the ostentatious sarcasm but I am greatly saddened by what I am seeing. If this (and other activity which I have witnessed but not commented on for lack of space) is representative of Bellevue, Christians, or Jesus Himself, then I just may consider atheism. Because I know some atheists and most of them would never treat people the way many comments dealing with this issue does.

SundayNov19 said...

I would like to hear frome deacon Rob Teutsch, how he stands on the Nov 19, 2006 signing.

Next, I would like to ask Mike Bratton a fair question. Why are you not on the Deacon Board?? You blog with all of the answers to the problems??

Anonymous said...

CRRV said... And then we have the outrageous example of accusing someone of beating children and/or wife/husband.

Just to be clear, I was making a point, not an accusation. I would've thought that using the term "spouse/parent/child/pet" would've made that clear. Consequently, I apologize for being less then transparent.

--Mike

choice_is_yours said...

CRRV said...
does anyone have a comment on any Biblical principles about what Scripture says about a person who would post a picture of Steve Gains and Bellevue Church dressed up as terrorists saluting Hitler?
...said above.


I condemn AS SIN referring to BBC people as terrorists. This has been done on both sides of the Steve-Mark fence.


I forgive the SINNERS who have referenced BBC people as terrorists.

Will McKay said...

Crrv is right. Both the forum and material posted are absurd. I doubt many of you would talk like this to the world if your name was attached to your comments (I wouldn't either).

Continue marching in your fool's parade. The Piper has returned and called you to action.

choice_is_yours said...

Mike Bratton said...
CRRV said... And then we have the outrageous example of accusing someone of beating children and/or wife/husband.

Just to be clear, I was making a point, not an accusation. I would've thought that using the term "spouse/parent/child/pet" would've made that clear. Consequently, I apologize for being less then transparent.

--Mike

4:44 PM, November 09, 2006







Mike Bratton said...
Truth Hunter said...
Gnats,

It takes actual evidence to squash allegations. No evidence has been presented.

The pastor's word is not evidence of anything. Same goes for reports from Chip Freeman, Chuck Taylor and Harry Smith.

Have you stopped beating your spouse/parent/child/pet? (Your pseudonym precludes my being more specific, unfortunately.) I haven't seen any evidence that you haven't stopped.

Remember, your word isn't evidence of anything. I demand to see hard evidence that your spouse/parent/child/pet is recovering from the vicious beatings you've administered, and that you've ceased administering them. We need actual evidence to squash those nasty allegations.

--Mike

4:08 PM, November 09, 2006

SundayNov19 said...

Mike, why won't you answer the question below??

SundayNov19 said...
I would like to hear from deacon Rob Teutsch, how he stands on the Nov 19, 2006 signing.

Next, I would like to ask Mike Bratton a fair question. Why are you not on the Deacon Board?? You blog with all of the answers to the problems??

Kevin Furniss said...

If everybody commenting on this blog is a member of Bellevue, then I am saddened to call myself a member there as well. The love of Christ is not being shown through anybodies comments (no matter what side they are on). I am away at college right now, and it pains me to see the body of Christ acting this way. Why is there a new accusation against Pastor Steve and the deacons of Bellevue every day? Does anybody in this blog have time to share the Gospel with others amidst all of the bickering or are you too wrapped up in this saddening issue? I don't understand why you would be a member of a church, but not trust the words of the pastor that is over you. I will unashamedly say that I have gotten to spend some quality time with the pastor over the last few months and love him to death. He is a man of God that I trust because the Lord has placed him in a leadership role at our church. I have told myself I would not get involved again with this blog but the hatred expressed by both sides of the issue saddens me to the point of tears. So this is my last response in hopes that you would search your hearts and see that this is not pleasing to the Lord!

disciple of Jesus Christ,
Kevin Furniss

choice_is_yours said...

Mike Bratton,

I'm going to start a prayer for Sister Pam.

I'm asking you to carry on after me and pass it on to someone else.

Father in Heaven,

Father, we adore you
lay our lives before you
How we love you

Please comfort Sister Pam. Please comfort Brother Mike.

Please be with all of us who carry the crosses you have given us to carry.

All of us believe we are serving your best interests.

Give us discernment.

We want to be unified and we want to serve you.

Hear our prayers....

(...squeezing Mike's hand, the next person in the circle...)

Truth Hunter said...

MB,

You think that nonsense about beating my wife is cute, but your analogy doesn't work. In this instance, actual proof is available. There is no need to take anyone's word for it.

Please work on your arguments and get back to me. You are smarter than that. I will not be bullied by your rhetoric.

Gnats,

I have no problems with proper authority. I have problems when authority creates doubt about its honesty and integrity.

Thank you for your concern.

New BBC Open Forum said...

crrv,

You said, "Then when I objected and suggested that we all rise up and demand accountability for such a disturbing posting I was told to leave and go start my own blog by someone objecting to Gaines telling them to leave bellevue and find another church."

You also said that you do not go to Bellevue and never will; therefore, with all due respect, you are not a part of "we." This forum is "open" for all who want to come here and discuss things in a civil, respectful manner. Numerous people like mkw and Derrick have posted opinions similar to yours but have done so in a respectful, thoughtful manner. You have made numerous contentious comments in this forum this afternoon, all of which say basically the same thing. It's getting old, and the next "you're a bunch of hypocrites" post I see from you is going to be deleted. And if you post another one in that vein after that, it'll be deleted, too. Enough is enough already! Same for Mike Bratton and gnats. I'm tired of your venomous attacks. Next one's outta here! I hate to sound like a first grade school teacher scolding the class, but you're acting like a bunch of children and need to be treated as such.

And just for the record, I saw that photo last night and was appalled as well. I wrote the web master of that site and asked if he'd please take it down and left a comment in this forum at 9:46 this morning expressing my displeasure that something like that was posted. Perhaps you missed it. And also just so you'll know, I did write him again this morning and asked if he'd consider issuing an apology. I've received no reply, nor does he owe me one. It's up to him what he does.

NBBCOF

reasons said...

Mike, I agree with SundayNov19 request. I have been reading this blog but now feel lead to blog as well. It seems to me people will not answer questions that will put them in a bad light. I see this from both sides so I'm not picking on you. Let's be fair Mike, and answer everyone's questions.

I aslo want to know, why are you not on the deacon board?

reasons said...

I call on the Deacon leadership to step down if you refuse to bring this to a business meeting with an open mic. Please reconsider.

CRRV said...

I appreciate tim's response to my concerns and am saddened by the response by new bbc open forum. tim, thank you for your comments as they help give me some encouragement. To new bbc, I am sorry that I have apparently hurt you in some way that would cause you to attack me and my concerns. I apologize for what you have labeled as unthoughtful and disrespectful. I can assure you that i meant to do neither. I am only concerned when I see people who claim the name of Christ, express attitudes which the world would condemn. Christians are called to a higher standard. That is why I have concerns over Gaines' activities. But I am sure that Jesus is not pleased with insults hurled at a person who is only attempting to get people that claim the name of Christ to speak to one another in love. My comments are not intended to be disrespectful to individuals only disrespectful towards sinful attitudes and behavior. I again apologize if my thoughts that I am expressing are unthoughtful. Thank you for that loving correction.

Tim said...

In defense of bbcopenforum,

I have not been subjected to near the critism, that has been dumped at their feet. Nor have I had the responsibility to try and maintain the civility of the blog. It is a difficult task and I am grateful that they have taken it on.

Josh Tucker said...

It is almost impossible to continue to sit on the sidelines.

Tim,

The mother of the fedupwiththis had left her name on previous posts, so you could actually trace who both individuals were, and she stated in a now deleted post that she wanted to protect the identity of her daughter.

You stated, "I have myself tried to direct these conversations aways from unsubstantiated accusations. I wish others would do the same. It absolutely destroys credibility."

Very true, then why did you engage in the very behavior you seek to turn away from? You accused an unknown source of engaging in a political smear campaign and suggested a conspiracy of sorts with regard to the saving bellevue website and the photo. For informations sake, it has been documented that Jim Haywood will post items of interest on his website only to shortly take them down later when they are considered negatives for his position (i.e. the supposedly scandalous i2 ad).

NBBCOF,

Bratton and Gnats are verbally sharp and pointed in their posts, but calling their posts venemous is neither a fair nor well balanced perspective. Equally harsh posts by individuals who have similar views to yourself have neither been condemned nor threatened with censure.

StumblingServant said...

Pledges? Alliegences? WHAT? Is this a bunch of GROWN MEN or a kid's club. When do they get the secret password and the super-secret decoder rings? I am so embarassed by this bunch of deacons.

Josh Tucker said...

NBBCOF,

^ Case in point.

Tim said...

Josh,

I stated that it was odd that this picture suddenly apppeared and disappeared. Perhaps you can explain why the "comment deleted" are gone from the blog as well as the comment itself. Someone other than a 12 year old knew what they were doing. Secondly I appreciate that you say the mother had left her name, if it is there I have not seen it. Indeed, where is it? Fact not Ficition.

I indeed have seen items on Mr. Haywood's site that I did not agree with nor did I think that they were appropriate. However, since the "fedupwthis" was not the work of a 12 year old, then who do you presume that it was. It is odd to me, perhaps not to you, but I do have a right to my opinion as you do to yours.

Finally concerning, stumblingservant, I agree with him, why on earth wouldn't our deacons behave like grown men and yes, it is an embarassment.

Anonymous said...

To the Bellevue leadership:

Only YOU can restore YOUR integrity!

Only do those things which restore trust.

Humble yourselves and stop presenting yourselves as a force of opposition.

Steve: humble yourself, confess your shortcomings, admit the wrongs you are responsible for - (little bitty fence? your kids and Wednesday nite yet still you're gone), be gentle, make a public invitation to meet with your accusers that they can't refuse, deal quickly with rumor and speculation, eliminate "leaders" around you that are making the situation worse, get to know the people you are responsible for, "slow down", do ALL you can do to make right what is wrong and get along with your new family. I do love you - see you Sunday.

Anonymous said...

To all:

There are bullies harming the bride of Christ and you had better get right or get ready for the groom.

Who are you?

reasons said...

It looks to me like we are going to continue to do business behind closed doors. Case in point: Chuck Taylor's letter that he wrote and will force the deacons to a sign or be kicked off the Deacon Board.

I believe before the signing, the language of the letter will be changed to get more deacons to ink it.

Mark said...

Brothers and Sisters in Christ:


My hope is that these words dont insult or anger anyone. I am speaking after some prayer.

I would like all of us to Pray for the Rogers family. It seems that there is an anniversary coming up. Have we forgotten?

May we also pray for Brother Sharpe.

Perhaps we can pray for Pastor Gaines. He was asked to come to Bellevue. God's Church is restless.

The fruits of the spirit are Love, Joy, Peace, Patience, Kindness, Goodness, Faithfulness, Gentleness and Self - Control. Some of us have lost our way.

Brothers and Sisters - we have turned love into politics.

Who is going to take the lead? Who is going to come forward?

Why does a deacon board have to stand? Dont we all stand for Christ?

Dear Pastor - you ministered to me this weekend. You addressed my sins. You showed me the way in the Bible. The Holy Spirit is at work. I hope you can sense my Love.

Pastor how can I express to you how you are needed out front. Please be the Hands and Feet of Christ.

Your Brother In Christ - Mark

David Brown said...

Fellow Bellevue Members: This is getting very nasty. I am troubled when someone posts an opinion, they are challenged. I have had my encoutners with Mike in the past. I firmly believe Mike is a fellow saint in Christ. True he can be sharp pointed but Praise the Lord that He made us different. We serve a great God. That is what makes Bellevue so awesome. I do have questions and concerns but instead of posting them here I have decided to take to the One that counts. Now let me ask this, let's say the rapture is in the next moment. How are we going to respond to Him when He asks what have we been doing for Him? Think before attacking some that we do not agree with. Remember these folks that are posting, we are going to be spending eternity with them. Please lets love each other.

Housewife said...

Dear brothers in Christ,

It really pains me to say this, but I have had this incredibly strong impression since this all started. Over the course of reading personal accounts and first hand experiences, this impression has become stronger and more honed. Please don't think that I am being frivolous with what I am about to say. And please know that I am not saying this for shock value or even to offend anybody. But here goes. The one impression I get from the intimidation tactics and the double-speak of Pastor Gains is that which we saw from former President Clinton. Clinton had a knack of looking straight into the eyes of the American people and flat out lie to us. He could also intimidate people very easily. The episode of Gains putting his arm around a brother/deacon (?) and telling him, "This never happened" really hits home. Clinton also fired those who would not play along. As a matter of fact, he destroyed countless of people who didn't "drink the Kool-Aid." I'm sure I could go into many more similarities. But we get the picture.

Again, I'm sorry to offend many or all of you by this. But so much has come out that makes me ask, "How can Gains do these things, behave this way toward his brothers and sisters in Christ and continue to preach the word of God? Does he not fear God???" He cannot be oblivious to his actions. I believe that like Clinton, Gains knows what he is doing and has become calculating. This pains me to say because I was also there when we "voted" him in and when our dear Pastor Rogers washed his feet and handed over the "reins," so to speak.

Disclaimer: I know Clinton had other scandalous sins, which hurt our country. We all know what I am referring to. I only mention this because in making similarities between Gains and Clinton, I don't wish anybody to conclude that I am suggesting Gains has also taken this particular path or committed these particular sins. I have no knowledge of anything like this from Gains. I make no such insinuations. Please don't take my words out of context to suggest that I have made any such insinuations. The similarities I make concern his ability to deceive and intimidate. I would only add that Gains also seems to need the rush of power since he has abused his position.

God bless us as we fight for our Bellevue. I know it really belongs to Christ Jesus, our Lord and Savior. But Bellevue is our home. The Lord has blessed us here. The Lord has allowed us to love and grow here. I pray we can recover our church and God will restore and correct where needed.

In Christ,
Ana.

momandmember said...

I posted a statement of explanation last night and then promptly deleted it, as well as all the posts made by my daughter. I will not be pushed into revealing who I am, because I wish to protect the identity of my daughter (she's 24, not 12), who is unsaved and was very much wounded by what she felt was a lack of concern demonstrated toward her and her opinions. She said two people were kind to her and seemed like they cared, but everyone else just kept on fighting with each other and arguing with her, as well. Her opinion, not mine. And just FYI, if you want to delete your posts and remove them "forever," then go to the trashcan at the bottom of your post, delete it, then hit the "back" button on the top of your browser. It will ask you if you want to "remove comment forever," and you log in again with your name and password and voila, it's gone. I chose to delete her posts because I have every desire to see her not hurt any further, and I really wish to protect my own identity where this is concerned, too. You can continue to think if you wish that this was an attack by someone who was up to no good, but it was not. It was a sincere plea by an unsaved young woman to let those involved in this forum know how they were coming across to her. My heart broke as I read her posts and deleted each of them, wondering if harm had been done to her seeking spirit. I really did not know she was aware of all of this, nor that she was honestly seeking again or using my computer to post her thoughts. Please pray for her and our family. She's been through several rough years and we really long to see her come to the Lord.

Tim said...

David,

I have indeed have taken my questions before the throne of God and have done so boldy because of the blood of Jesus Christ.

I have been convicted, however, that I should not only pray. I appreciate your convictions as I am sure you will appreciate mine.

Anonymous said...

choice_is_yours said...
Mike Bratton,

I'm going to start a prayer for Sister Pam.


Choice, I appreciate that. Since this business was taken to the Internet, I've been praying for everyone involved, even the anonymous folks. God knows who they are, even if no one else does, and He knows best how to address the needs of each individual.

SundayNov19 said... Next, I would like to ask Mike Bratton a fair question. Why are you not on the Deacon Board??

I'm not on the Deacon Board because I'm not a deacon.

Truth Hunter said... MB, You think that nonsense about beating my wife is cute, but your analogy doesn't work. In this instance, actual proof is available. There is no need to take anyone's word for it.

No, actually I think that analogy is horrible. However, its hyperbolic nature matches with the running accusations made against members of Bellevue's staff and lay leadership.

Please work on your arguments and get back to me. You are smarter than that.

I appreciate the compliment regarding my intelligence, but you'll forgive me for not taking debate tips from you.

I will not be bullied by your rhetoric.

Branding that with which you do not agree never facilitates dialogue.

tim said... Dr. Gaines was not truthful in telling us the reasons that he did not preach on Wednesday nights. PERIOD. It was not a mistake of the mind but of the heart. It was flat out, blatant deceit.

How long does it take you to prepare a message, Tim?

New BBC Open Forum said... Same for Mike Bratton and gnats. I'm tired of your venomous attacks. Next one's outta here! I hate to sound like a first grade school teacher scolding the class, but you're acting like a bunch of children and need to be treated as such.

Again and again I ask for quotes to back up spurious allegations of "venomous attacks," and I still can't get one. Did you "sound like a first grade teacher" when you told the savingbellevue.com contingent how "venomous" their attack was, or was your tone more collegial?

And has it crossed your mind that comparing those with whom you disagree to children, instead of actually engaging in discussion and debate, reinforces the notion that you as a group are interested in neither discussion nor debate?

The "next one's outta here" business isn't surprising, but keep in mind that when (and if) you do follow through with your belligerency, your forum can no longer be legitimately referred to as either "New" (since you will be employing the same tactics used on the old board) or "Open" (for obvious reasons).

Josh Tucker said... Bratton and Gnats are verbally sharp and pointed in their posts, but calling their posts venemous is neither a fair nor well balanced perspective. Equally harsh posts by individuals who have similar views to yourself have neither been condemned nor threatened with censure.

StumblingServant said... Pledges? Alliegences? WHAT? Is this a bunch of GROWN MEN or a kid's club. When do they get the secret password and the super-secret decoder rings? I am so embarassed by this bunch of deacons.

Josh Tucker said...
NBBCOF,

^ Case in point.


Thank you for the timely and succinct observation, Josh.

--Mike

Tim said...

momandmember,

Then I owe you an apology, along with what I thought was quite an odd coincidence concerning MB's blog site.

As you can see from my communications with your daughter I was as kind and civil as could be. I tried as well to explain what was going on here and relate to her as much as possible.

My apologies to MB as well.

momandmember said...

Thank you Tim. I do accept your apology.

Hecanhear said...

Your problem people is Steve Gaines - and only Steve Gaines, PERIOD! Quit dancing around it and making excuses for him and his group of supporters who appear too dumb to know what Gaines is doing. He is a dishonest preacher without integrity whatsoever! But, he is a good talker, puts on such great sermons, none which include him.
Quit whining to each other. Stop quoting Bible verses to show off your Bible knowledge and that you are above all of this terrible nitpicking stuff. You are not solving anything. Spend some energy and brain power to see how to GET RID OF GAINES AND THE PROBLEM IS SOLVED. How much clearer does God have to show you the enourmous cancer Gaines is spreading. Pluck it out. Stand up to him in numbers and tell him to hit the road. He is not God's man. He was thrown in you face by the search comittee. And, because they made a lousy choice and forced it upon the church that same comittee is now protecting and shielding Gaines. God expects you to do more than just sit there and whine. He expects for you to see the obvious and act upon it. If you don't God will tear down Bellevue. It has become an abomination and in the very near future there might just stand a truck stop and parking lot on Appling Road in place of Bellevue Baptist Church.
I refuse to address Gaines as Dr. or Pastor, so don't lecture me. Gaines is a slick lying phoney preacher.

momandmember said...

And I think this is exactly the kind of ugliness that was so offensive to my daughter. Just food for thought.

choice_is_yours said...

Praise the Lord!!....

Here is a sincere apology, true repentence, contrition....

...and in return a gracious open-ended grant of forgiveness.

We need more B.F. "grants" like this ("Bellevue Forgiveness").

PRICELESS.


Tim said...
momandmember,

Then I owe you an apology, along with what I thought was quite an odd coincidence concerning MB's blog site.

As you can see from my communications with your daughter I was as kind and civil as could be. I tried as well to explain what was going on here and relate to her as much as possible.

My apologies to MB as well.

8:32 PM, November 09, 2006


momandmember said...
Thank you Tim. I do accept your apology.

8:37 PM, November 09, 2006







Come on people!! This is how revivals start!!

Who wants to be next?

Somebody, anybody!!

Step up to the "altar" and repent.

Did you go five miles over the speed limit today?

Did you yell at the family pet?

Did you think sinful thoughts when you got a big bill in the mail?


Come up here and repent.

In front of the whole world.

Let everyone know that Jesus loves you and forgives you.

Praise God!

Isn't anyone feeling broken yet?

Tim said...

Mike Bratton said,

How long does it take you to prepare a message, Tim?

It take long as our sometimes to construct a single sentence, which actually make gould sense. If I wont to spile it write then it take longr.

Tim said...

momandmember,

I appreciate your forgiveness, contrary to what many may believe it is important to me. I will keep your daughter in my prayers.

RickyD said...

I wonder as I read over some of these comments how the people who spread lies and hear say gossip sleep at night, all the while publicly professing their love for Bellevue and God? It seems to me, just your average Bellevue member that a lot of people associated with this site are simply baiting those in authoritative positions to respond to unfounded gossip just so they can then twist their responses and spew more hatred and just plain evil in an attempt to grow further controversies based on nothing. The Deacon Body giving a vote of confidence is so petty, yet you have (not surprisingly) turned it into some issue of placing loyalty to Dr. Gaines over God. Do you even realize how ridiculous that sounds? I love to hear all the comments about how this Blog is helping because it is causing its readers to dive deeper into The Word. Well, that in itself is awesome, however, what about the non-believers who might read this? Does this help lead the lost ones to the Lord? Are souls being saved by this Blog and Website? Is contributing to gossip and unfounded claims your way of being the Light? Glad to see everyone is getting the speck out of everyone else’s eye. This site is truly uplifting and I can defiantly see how Christ is being glorified by the existence of this Blog and SavingBellevue.com. I don’t see a need to hide behind some “username” when people feel it necessary to publish everything about the Deacon Body.

Ricky Dyer
totallm@yahoo.com

Tim said...

Ricky,

Support for the pastor is one thing, a demand of alliegience to the pastor by the deacon body is another.

History has proven that men and women of faith have made an everlasting differnce in the church. When wrong exist, especially in the church it must be brought into the light.

Can we and should we follow all pastors, every where at all times? Certainly, not. Should we accept all doctrine, from all faiths? Of course not.

Remaining silent, when you are aware of truth is a sin of ommission.

As for leading the lost to Christ, that is one of the mandates of the faith, but it is not the only one. We are also called to admonish one another to good works and to correct one another.

There have been issues that I have asked for understanding on as well and when given sound Biblical doctrine have readily accepted it.

Finally, I would submit that the same things were said within the SBC at the time that Dr. Rogers sought to restore the infalliality and inerrancy of the scriptures to the Southern Baptist Denomonation.

Tim said...

I have seen a few renditions of the pledge of loyalty and would like to submit another that I believe to be appropriate.


A Pledge of Loyalty to Bellevue Baptist Church

As the Senior Pastor of Bellevue Baptist Church, I Steve Gaines do herby pledge my love to the Body of Christ, which I shepherd at Bellevue Baptist Church. I wish to affirm all members of the church as accepted and loved. I commit myself before God to our Church family to lead in love, humbleness and humility. My desire is to be no respector of persons and to treat all members with loving kindness, always willing to submit myself to the service of Jesus Christ. As my predecessor humbled himself to the washing of my feet, so do I on this day in the year of our Lord 2006 on November 19.

Anonymous said...

Tim said...
Mike Bratton said,

How long does it take you to prepare a message, Tim?

It take long as our sometimes to construct a single sentence, which actually make gould sense. If I wont to spile it write then it take longr.


Dude, spell-check is your friend.

Seriously, though, I asked for a reason. If you're a pastor who speaks on Sunday mornings and Sunday nights, you have to devote a lot of hours in your work week to developing those messages, right? So where do you pull the time to develop a Wednesday night message as well?

Pastor Gaines (and for those following along, he is your pastor if you're a member of the body of believers known as Bellevue) is, contrary to popular opinion, generally at Bellevue on Wednesday nights--as he's said before. His Wednesdays generally consist of committee meetings, which frees up other time on other days for his family.

If you want to pillory him for it, that's your prerogative. I see someone using the "Hecanhear" feels comfortable enough to say things like (and I quote thusly and like so):

"Quit dancing around it and making excuses for him and his group of supporters who appear too dumb to know what Gaines is doing. He is a dishonest preacher without integrity whatsoever!"

"Stop quoting Bible verses to show off your Bible knowledge and that you are above all of this terrible nitpicking stuff. You are not solving anything. Spend some energy and brain power to see how to GET RID OF GAINES AND THE PROBLEM IS SOLVED." (emphasis in the original)

"How much clearer does God have to show you the enourmous cancer Gaines is spreading. Pluck it out. Stand up to him in numbers and tell him to hit the road. He is not God's man. He was thrown in you face by the search comittee."

"God expects you to do more than just sit there and whine. He expects for you to see the obvious and act upon it. If you don't God will tear down Bellevue. It has become an abomination and in the very near future there might just stand a truck stop and parking lot on Appling Road in place of Bellevue Baptist Church."

"I refuse to address Gaines as Dr. or Pastor, so don't lecture me. Gaines is a slick lying phoney preacher."

Nass, if you're reading along, it's just my opinion, but I'd suggest that one post from "Hecanhear" contained actual, toxic "venom." I can't speak for Gnats, but I know that of the posts I've read, Gnats hasn't gone anywhere near making comments like that about anyone; since I can speak for myself, I know that none of my posts has ventured into "slick lying phoney," he-spread-a-cancer territory.

As I've noted more than once today, your response--and the response of others who read that diatribe--will be revealing.

--Mike

Isawit said...

The orchestrating of these dramatic events is very similar to the first "Baptist" church I joined. My whole family was caught up in the hysteria of "protecting our pastor". The "meanspirited" deacons were after him. ( We have alot of friends in the ministry and know that it happens frequently)
He really started preaching to the troublemakers and we were cheering him on. It seemed to be over the music.. then it was over something else simple. Our preacher compaired himself to Stephen and Jesus and every other wronged preacher in the gospel. My family continued to cheer him own, participating in orchrastated standing ovations for his support.
After a year of turmoil, we left and came to Bellevue. What was refreshing was the fact Dr. Rogers never preached the church problems or to them.
The church we left had to ask the pastor to leave as did the seminary where he taught. There was a big problem but he was hiding behiding the little ones.
He left threatning to sue the church in a letter delivered to the members. I think he still had 45% support after the letter. This just supports the idea some people can pledge loyality no matter what.

Please be careful to not take up an offense for anyone. You really never know.

Tim said...

Just to add a not in case any one should think that I am suggesting a literal washing of feet. I am not. It is figurative. Perhaps there could be some other act of humlity that could actually be displayed that would be more illustrative.

Lwood said...

To BBC Open Forum
I really think it is time for the Mike Bratton blogs to stop.He is doing nothing but trying to make every one at Bellevue Blog look unchristian and causing turmoil on purpose. It would be best if we as you suggested scrooled by him but other outsiders do read them and connect him with us. He has his own blog... Let him post on it and quiet arguing with every post on this site. Was a great pic of him on the other post by doh :) Check him out... I think I have seen him around..

New BBC Open Forum said...

lwood,

I really think we've seen enough photos for one day.

Bereans said...

This whole idea of making the deacons pledge their allegience to Steve reminds me of a story in the Old Testament.

". . .that at the time that ye hear the sound of the cornet, flute, harp, sackbut, psaltery, dulcimer, and all kinds of music, ye fall down and worship the golden image that Nebuchadnezzar, the king, hath set up; and whoever falleth not down and worshipeth, shall the same hour be cast into the midst of a burning fiery furnace." Daniel 3:5-6

I hope that among the deacon body there will be a Shadrach, Meshach and Abednego who refuse to bow down.

choice_is_yours said...

Click here for more of Luke's Good News for Bellevue. This also has links to how to go to Heaven and what BBC stands for.

Luke 2:1-20 (King James Version)

Luke 2

1And it came to pass in those days, that there went out a decree from Caesar Augustus that all the world should be taxed.

2(And this taxing was first made when Cyrenius was governor of Syria.)

3And all went to be taxed, every one into his own city.

4And Joseph also went up from Galilee, out of the city of Nazareth, into Judaea, unto the city of David, which is called Bethlehem; (because he was of the house and lineage of David:)

5To be taxed with Mary his espoused wife, being great with child.

6And so it was, that, while they were there, the days were accomplished that she should be delivered.

7And she brought forth her firstborn son, and wrapped him in swaddling clothes, and laid him in a manger; because there was no room for them in the inn.

8And there were in the same country shepherds abiding in the field, keeping watch over their flock by night.

9And, lo, the angel of the Lord came upon them, and the glory of the Lord shone round about them: and they were sore afraid.

10And the angel said unto them, Fear not: for, behold, I bring you good tidings of great joy, which shall be to all people.

11For unto you is born this day in the city of David a Saviour, which is Christ the Lord.

12And this shall be a sign unto you; Ye shall find the babe wrapped in swaddling clothes, lying in a manger.

13And suddenly there was with the angel a multitude of the heavenly host praising God, and saying,

14Glory to God in the highest, and on earth peace, good will toward men.

15And it came to pass, as the angels were gone away from them into heaven, the shepherds said one to another, Let us now go even unto Bethlehem, and see this thing which is come to pass, which the Lord hath made known unto us.

16And they came with haste, and found Mary, and Joseph, and the babe lying in a manger.

17And when they had seen it, they made known abroad the saying which was told them concerning this child.

18And all they that heard it wondered at those things which were told them by the shepherds.

19But Mary kept all these things, and pondered them in her heart.

20And the shepherds returned, glorifying and praising God for all the things that they had heard and seen, as it was told unto them.

choice_is_yours said...

Scheduling note:

Everyone please take a day of from all of this every week. Sunday is coming come up. Please prepare your hearts for worship of the living God. Please go to Appling and remember you may be sitting next to some of the people you all talking to here.

Please, either don't come here at all for 24 contiguous hours once per week, or if you do come here: just talk about Jesus's finnished victory and not Bellevue's temporary problems.

Please join with me in requesting that this forum's commenting tools simply be shut off 24 hours once per week.

God bless you and I hope today is wonderful for you.

Choice

Housewife said...

Dear brothers and sisters in Christ,

I would like to add one more observation to the comment I posted before concerning Gains' behavior. I know this sounds trivial but his nervous laugh makes me nervous. I'm not being facetious. I think it reveals a lot about him when he's speaking and he brings out this nervous tick of his. He does it quite a bit.

I have noticed several times that when he is addressing accusations about is behavior, this nervous tick increases. He will give his "half-answer" then ask the congregation to for an "Amen" response and give off his nervous/frustrated giggle. It's almost as if he is implying that he doesn't want any more questions about that particular subject. His gritting-his-teeth demeanor implies that he is bothered by having to give account and he means to intimidate the congregation into "dropping the subject."

I wonder how much more increased this nervous giggle of his would be if we were allowed to ask questions in an open-mike-type forum at one of our business meeting.

There is another pastor who also has a nervous laugh similar to Gains' tick. This other pastor also mistreats his sheep. I won't get into specifics but suffice it to say, he also giggles like this when he is in similar situations. Others have made this same observation about this other pastor so when I saw it in Gains, it was obvious.

Just a thought....

In Christ,
Ana.

nope said...

what does everyone think about pledging allegiance to the flag and to the United States of America and to the republic for which it stands, one nation under God with liberty and justice for all?

Housewife said...

With all due respect, Nope, I disagree with your analogy.

When we pledge allegiance to the US, we reserve the right to disagree with our country and its politicians, including our president - without fear of being punished or kicked out of the country.

We also have a choice to pledge allegiance or not to pledge at all in the first place. If we choose not to, we are still allowed to live and thrive here just the same. Given, we must abide by the law, but abiding by the law doesn't require us to pledge allegiance. It is a choice. And again, if we don't pledge, we won't get fired from our jobs or kicked out of the country.

The difference here is that given Gains' treatment of those who disagree him, it is reasonable to conclude that those deacons who don't sign the pledge will be "fired" or otherwise ousted from their positions. We've already seen other deacons ousted for disagreeing with Gains and/or questioning his behavior and/or decisions.

Likewise, there have been other people who were forced out of the church. Too many have also seen (from Gains and/or from his followers) outward attempts to destroy those who oppose him.

So you see, it's not the same at all.

A.

Ed_T said...

Oh goodness, the ever-moving target...

gnats, are you referring to my post just above yours?

If so, then you miss my point. You discard the stuff on the web site, but I take more issue with how these issues are being handled, or rather how they are NOT being handled. Can you honestly tell me that there was not a lack of honesty when Dr. Gaines gave his account of the notorious fence incident? One does not "step-over" a 4 foot high fence. I have the same type of fence in my backyard and I can tell you it is neither knee-high nor can one step over it. He who is faithful in the little things will be faithful in the bigger things. If the pastor cannot give an accurate and honest version of something like the fence incident, why should I or anybody else believe that all these other things are just rumors and the accusations of troublemakers?

Why does the church attempt to hide behind non-disclosure agreements with at least one - if not all - former staff member (who did not sign it)? It reeks of cover-up.

Why is the pastor's compensation package such a secret? Why should the church - or more than a handful of deacons - not know at least the range within which the pastor's salary/compensation package falls. The churches that my brother has pastored have known the general range of his salary. If you drop by the Bellevue history exhibit at the church, you will find Dr. Lee's salary of $7500 printed in a Messenger issue back in the church's early days (judging from the other items listed, I doubt this was an "office of the pastor" figure that included his salary).

I and another friend had lunch with a deacon friend and I asked why the two sides are not brought together to get this all over and done with. We were given some completely lame excuse that by not doing so, the pastor was "protecting the church". I wanted to shake this deacon and say, "Why don't you wake up and smell what you're shoveling?"

I think the only thing being protected is those in authority, either staff and/or lay leaders. Why do I think this? Because of the ineptitude with which this situation has been handled up till now, regardless of the merits any of the accusations may have. They're afraid of letting anybody near the church's Pandora's Box for fear of the embarrassment it may cause. If ALL of these issues are nothing but rumors and are so easily dismissed, then there is no sensible reason to not embarrass the accusers with the TRUTH and be done with it.

ET

WOUNDEDANDBLEEDING said...

We teach our four daughters to pledge their allegiance to the Lamb of Calvary and nothing else and no one less.

When others rise to say the pledge of allegiance to the flag at school, my school age daughter simply exchanges the words here and there to reflect where her allegance lies.

We do not ask anyone else to do as we do but we do feel convicted to teach our daughters in this way and to do this ourselves.

We love our country and we pray that GOD blesses America but we pledge our alligiance to KING JESUS and thank GOD for having the choice to do so!

Under HIS wings and in HIS love,
Sister Pam Gremillion

New BBC Open Forum said...

Sister Pam,

Thank you, thank you, thank you! I have wanted so long for someone with a lot more connections than I to summarize once and for all the concerns many of us have. It's so difficult to sum it all up, but you've done an outstanding job, and I salute you (no, I'm not wearing a black mask). I know I speak for many when I say, please click here.

As for Dr. Gaines claiming he "never" used the credit card, I was there, and he didn't say that. He pulled out a credit card and said, "See, here it is." (My reaction was, "So?") He said he's had a church credit card since he was 30 (again, not sure why that was relevant), and he said he's never used it for anything inappropriate. But he never claimed he hadn't used it at all. It's my understanding the receipts that were reviewed last week were from one of his church credit cards.

NASS

choice_is_yours said...

Concerning the Bible text for today from Luke's Gospel.

More anonymous angels.

But notice... a sign is given to prove the angels are telling the truth. A babe will be found in a manger.

So the shepherds hurried to investigate just like Mary hurried. And they find the Christ child.

Also notice another common similarity of these angel accounts. There is fear (we are to fear God and these messengers are from God). But there has been reassurance in each case to reassure the recipients of the messages.

A recap of the pattern of angels from God in Luke so far. This is 100% consistent for each of the three encounters we've seen.

1) Arrival of the angel
2) Fear on the part of the mortal
3) Reassurance from the angel
4) A message
5) A method to test the message
6) Departure of the angel
7) The testing of the message
confirms the angels are from God

Tim said...

I also express my appreciation my dear Sister Pam.

I sincerely pray that your words of encouragement are so. This has been going on for nearly a year. So few members of the church realize that. I was first made aware about 8 months ago and my heart has been broken.

cjesusnme said...

MKW,

I must intercede on behalf of Sister Pam. I don't think her choice of words when describing the abuse which has occured at Bellevue with some members is out of line. This IS NOT simply feelings being hurt. There are jobs lost, and more importantly people being fired or let go, when God called them to the ministry they were serving and let go from. I call that much more than feelings being hurt.

While I appreciate your imput here and how it has had a loving tone, let's call things what they are and I feel that Sister Pam and her husband have been some of the few who have had the courage to stand up for the truth and determine exactly what the truth is and not just look through those "smokey mirrors" which some of the "committee members" would like use to look through.

Just my opinion, but I think others on here will agree that it is much more than hurt feelings.

choice_is_yours said...

MKW,

We're talking about spiritual abuse.

Spiritual Abuse Profile

Cult or Cultic?

Elements of Spiritual Abuse

What is Mind Control?

Mind Control and the Cults

Destructive Mind Control



Most importantly,



TOOLS FOR RECOVERING FROM SPIRITUAL ABUSE



Mike Bratton also has some information on this under the Bear story.

IMPORTANT: BELLEVUE BAPTIST CHURCH IS NOT A CULT AND THAT MAKES TO HARD TO ADMIT THAT THESE WORLDLY TACTICS HAVE MOVED IN, but the bear story on Mike's blog proves it.

That's not gossip. Mike has testified of the story himself publicly in print and online.

choice_is_yours said...

Thursday, October 19, 2006
The Bears
No, I'm not writing about the Chicago Bears, who (as of this moment) are 6-0, with a two-and-a-half game lead over the Minnesota Vikings in the NFC "Norris" Division. I'm writing about something a friend of mine reminded me of recently with respect to the disappointing bombast directed at senior Bellevue leadership.

As we were conversing, I expressed concern and compassion for those in the so-called "saving Bellevue" group; with a furrowed brow, he nodded and said to me "Mike, I love them--I just pray the bears don't run out of the woods on 'em." That remark stuck with me, and has been an additional reminder to me that any conversation should be about ideas and viewpoints, and should studiously avoid self-inflated opinions and personal potshots.

If I may synopsize for you the true story my friend referenced, thusly and like so:

A long time ago, there was a man of God who was anointed to be a leader. He had been the apprentice of a well-known, Godly, much-loved figure--one could even call him a prophet. This prophet was someone who received adulation not just in his immediate vicinity, but throughout their nation. After this well-known, Godly, much-loved figure had completed his ministry (and immediately before he went on to be with the Lord), he passed his mantle on to his apprentice, this man of God who was chosen to be the successor to the prophet's ministry.

The man of God had barely picked up his mentor's mantle when some of his mentor's followers began pining for the mentor. Ignoring the apprentice's appeals, they badgered him until they were allowed to search the countryside, a search which came up empty. After that, most of the congregants began to settle in with their new leader, taking their concerns to this man of God--even concerns they hadn't taken to his predecessor.

Not everyone, though, was so warm and receptive. As he was out one day, on his way to meet with other believers and share what heady things God had been doing in his life, he was accosted by a mob, dozens of young people. Their taunts had nothing to do with how this man of God was doing his job--these were people who made a habit of mocking others, and they repeated their jeers so this man of God couldn't help but hear them. Your mentor is dead, right? Why don't you join him, you bald-headed idiot? Yeah, you heard us! Why don't you die and go up to heaven, too, bald-head?

This was crossing a line. They were mature enough to know better, but that didn't matter. These young people weren't disagreeing with how the new leader was doing his job, but rather ganging up on this man, attacking the new leader personally, publicly, and repeatedly. Their attacks were at once insubstantial and vindictive.

The man of God turned around, and stared at them for what must have been a long moment. It was God's prompting that caused him to utter the curse--what a horrible thing it must be to be legitimately cursed in the Lord's name!--and then, it happened.

Meeting up with one wild bear would be bad enough. Two of them would be a multiplied danger, particularly when God has given them their marching orders. The entire mob, all 42 of them, died in the divinely-ordered bear attack. They weren't just killed, they were shredded, torn by two she-bears. And why? Not for debating policy or doctrine, but for verbally attacking people. Verbally, mind you.

And the man of God? He went about his business.

--Mike
posted by Mike Bratton at 11:55 PM 16 comments links to this post

choice_is_yours said...

I forgive whoever told this Bear story to Mike.

Bell22 said...

I ask this question yesterday and did not get a answer How many deacons left during this meeting last Sunday and how many were left in the end. I feel their is a great divide in the deacon body over this whole mess.The 19th will tell alot ,but we all know it will not end there.By the way we need to start tellig every member we can of this site Nass keep up the good work this is the only true and godly site to get information.

CRRV said...

new bbc open forum,

I am sorry to see that you think the picture attempting to show Christ's bride as a bunch of terrorists hailing Hitler is funny. It was a subtle remark, yet a telling one. I try not to make light of unrepentant sin. whether it be from a pastor or an accuser.

Tim said...

The Bear Story.

To those wondering,
it can be found in IIKings 2:23-25.

I don't believe that we have called go up bald head however, the man does have hair. We have not mocked him as he has mocked us. The issues are of credibility and integrity.

Ed_T said...

Yo, MB, you may not be aware that we no longer live in a theocracy, so your "bear story" is of no relevance here.

crrv, it's time to let the picture go! I never saw it and it must have not been up there for long. I did visit the blog of the church's unofficial Minister of Propaganda to view it. Are you not aware that SG associated MS with "Hezbollah"?

As for classifying this as a "Hitler salue", I doubt any Hezbo yahoo is going to salute a dead Nazi. And I can't really tell if that's SG behind the masks or not.

*** begin satire ***
crrv, you may not be familiar enough with this situation to understand this, but MB will - since the brother who posted it has taken it down, maybe he is willing to say, "It was a mistake of the head, not the heart."
*** end satire ***

Ed Thompson

P.S. Sister Pam...excellent "Statement of Issues". May have to 'copy-and-paste' for future reference. Also, you may want to add David Smith to your list of purged former staffers.

cjesusnme said...

crrv,

What is meant by your post? Do you not know that the majority of us in this forum did not like that picture and agreed that it was in bad taste? Furthermore, the web site which posted it has NOTHING to do with this site. Please let it go.....or deal one on one with the person who was responsible for it. Last time I checked, his name is not signed to any of these posts. We do however, welcome differences of opinion when they are stated in a civil manner.

Thanks

Truth Hunter said...

WTB,

Great post!

CRRV said...

I am beginning to become frustrated as it appears for some reason I am not making my position clear. (1)I have always attempted to be civil. (2) I have never suggessted anyone apologize aside from whoever posted the picture. (3) The only thing this has to do with this site is that I thought people would be outraged by it and people are not. (4) I am not supporting Gaines in this fiasco. (5) I only desire truth to emerge and this can never happen when cheap shots are taken at people or objectivity is not maintained. I have one simple concern that drives me to bring up this issue (although in actuality I did not bring it up, I was only commenting on a previous comment) My concern is that rather than searching for truth when we act as if a pastor going to see a church member (as wrong as that may be) is so much worse than a so called "Christian" posting the fore-mentioned picture with a clear intent, we have begun to loose objectivity and credibility. And that is never a good thing in this situation. Instead I have been attacked and ridiculed for having what has been called a ridiculous notion that the picture incident is a serious sin which should require a call for repentance from all Christians.

CRRV said...

p.s. why is only Gaines' sins worthy of mentioning "ad nauseum"?

CRRV said...

I Tim. 5: 21-22

The whole chapter applies to the entire situation at Bellevue. But my concerns focus on these verses. Verse 21 is referencing how to admonish an elder in sin.

Tim said...

My Dear Brother Charles and My Dear Sister Pam,

I am so grieved for you. I am so sorry that this has happened to you both.

I have no idea, what to say to be of comfort to you. I love you both in Jesus.
Tim

youwillknowthem said...

Woundedandbleeding said:
“Just the confirmed facts….”
and “More Facts….”

Sister Pam has written two wonderful posts that transcend this forum. She has so clearly given context to the many various discussions swirling here, on other blogs and websites and in the pews, passageways and parking lots of Bellevue. Real harm has been done to real people. Careers ended, fellowship and hearts broken.
Many months ago issues were raised that were handled horribly. Horrible things have continued to happen. Hiding and minimizing the issues as well as assailing those with concerns only adds to the trauma.
If we stand firmly on God’s word, seek His face and His will and His glory we’ll find ourselves on common ground.

Tim said...

crrv,

The picture that was posted was on another web site. There have been countless people that have told you that they in no way, shape form or fashion supported it.

The simple fact of the matter is this. It was done. It was wrong. It has been condemned, by those posting. There are hundreds of things on the internet that I am outraged over, but this site was not activated as a forum for that topic.

We can not devote a blog to Bellevue Baptist Church and then proceed to discuss every thing else that is going on in the world.

Perhaps, you believe me to be uncivil in saying so, but I am not. I am setting forth the fact that this does not direct the concerns of this blog.

Anonymous said...

Choice, when angels share good news, I agree that they don't have to give their names.

However, anti-Bellevue types aren't angelic in either nature or behavior, so your repeated attempts to excuse anonymous sniping fall short of the mark.

For the folks referencing my article "The Bears," you might have glossed over the part of the story regarding love and concern for those who bear ill will towards the Bellevue senior staff and lay leadership.

Yo, Ed. The Bible is always, one way or another, relevant.

--Mike

Housewife said...

I am terribly grieved to learn that Brother Jim Whitmire has been abused. I knew he was pushed out but I didn't know he actually had to endure outright abuse. I cannot express how horrible this is! Can anybody tell me what actually happened during those last days of Brother Whitmire's "retirement" or can anyone at least tell me where I can get that information? Thank you sister Pam for giving me this insight. My husband and I are sick and saddened over this.

In Christ,
A.

New BBC Open Forum said...

crrv wrote:

"new bbc open forum,

I am sorry to see that you think the picture attempting to show Christ's bride as a bunch of terrorists hailing Hitler is funny. It was a subtle remark, yet a telling one. I try not to make light of unrepentant sin. whether it be from a pastor or an accuser.


If you think I thought that photo was funny, you are delusional! Did you not read my two posts in which I stated that not only did I not approve of it (I think the word I used to describe my reaction was "appalled"), I wrote the webmaster of sb.com, a site that neither I nor anyone here is affiliated with, and voiced my disapproval, requested he remove it, and even suggested he consider issuing an apology. I can't make him apologize!

p.s. why is only Gaines' sins worthy of mentioning "ad nauseum"?

Why is a photo published by one person who has nothing to do with this site worth mentioning "ad nauseum"? For heaven's sake, we've covered that! If the webmaster of sb.com issues an apology, maybe you can comment on how disingenuous it seems to you, but until then, I really don't know what more there is to say about it.

I seem to recall you stated earlier that you neither attend nor will ever attend Bellevue. Why, then, if you don't mind my asking, does any of this matter to you in the least?

NASS

Josh Tucker said...

Bellevue has had problems with how various people on staff have been dealt with and treated over the years, and not just during Pastor Gaines tenure. I'm not condoning anyone's behavior, but this is not news.

However, personnel issues give no one a valid reason for going after the administration in the current manner based on unsubstantiated allegations regarding financial misconduct. 1 Timothy 5:19.

Tim said...

Josh,

If this is not news to you, then you should be absolutely ashamed of yourself for not bringing it to the attention of the chruch body.

cjesusnme said...

Josh,

I think the point is and we have covered this on this blog site and the old one.....the abuse is not condoned now, nor would it have been then (whenever you are referring to). The other point is that everyone knows of inappropriate behavior occuring now and we want it stopped. I have never heard of anything from the past, or I would have wanted the truth then too, as I am sure anyone of us would have. I am so tired of living in "the past". It's time to address what we have in front of us now and get back to gloifying God, there just seems to be some committees preventing us from doing just that!

Brother Charles and Sister Pam,

We love you and feel the pains with you. Praise God for the good that has come out of this though.

phil413 said...

Sister Pam and Brother Charles,
Your posts show so much love, faith and courage that they are truly indescribable. You both have inspired so many of us through your undeniable desire for the truth. May God bless you and your ministry.
Phil.4:13
David Matlock

Churchmouse said...

“There were ninety and nine that safely lay in the shelter of the fold, But one was out on the hills away, Far off from the gates of gold – Away on the mountains wild and bare, away from the tender Shepherd’s care, Away from the tender Shepherd’s care. ‘Lord, Thou hast here Thy ninety and nine’ Are they not enough for Thee? But the Shepherd made answer: ‘This of Mine Has wandered away from Me; And although the road be rough and steep, I go to the desert to find My sheep, I go to the desert to find My sheep.’ But none of the ransomed ever knew How deep were the waters crossed; Nor how dark was the night that the Lord passed thru ere He found His sheep that was lost. Out in the desert He heard its cry—Sick and helpless, and ready to die; Sick and helpless, and ready to die. But all thro’ the mountains, thunder riven, and up from the rocky steep, There arose a glad cry to the gate of heaven, ‘Rejoice! I have found My sheep!’ And the angels echoed around the throne, ‘Rejoice, for the Lord brings back His own! Rejoice, for the Lord brings back His own.” The Ninety and Nine; Elizabeth C. Clephane; Ira D. Sankey
Matthew 18:12 “How think ye? If a man have an hundred sheep, and one of them be gone astray, doth he not leave the ninety and nine, and goeth into the mountains, and seeketh that which is gone astray? 13: And if so be that he find it, verily I say unto you, he rejoiceth more over that sheep than over the ninety and nine which went not astray."

Churchmouse said...

Yes, Sister Pam, that is what I was trying to say! He cares for each of us and would not want even one of us out of the shelter of the fold. He is the Good Shepherd who would go out and find us and bring us back to safety. Thank you

Josh Tucker said...

Personnel and staff issues aside, whenever there are complaints or problems with the church, it is of the absolute utmost importance that everything is handled properly and correctly by those with the grievances or concerns. With any church, you are usually going to run into problems or issues at some point or another because people are human. Moreover, with a church the size of Bellevue, the number of issues or problems are bound to increase.

But should every complaint be deemed actionable? A large part of the difficulty for church leadership occurs in determining the legitimacy of the complaints. There is a fine line between biblical concern and personal preference at times. Moreover, how issues are taken before the church are almost as important as which issues.

Personally, I believe that becoming involved and taking on leadership roles yourself helps to allow you address concerns you might have. As a leader, your voice carries greater weight as well. It might take longer, but the process is a lot smoother. Nevertheless, all concerns need to be biblically based and taken care of with tact, grace, and wisdom or, at least, that's what we should aspire to.

Lwood said...

Lwood said

Josh

Duhhhhhhh, Where have you been???
Not listening evidently!!!!!!!!!
Maybe you need to start over and read the post..

Josh Tucker said...

lwood,

I'm not quite sure what you're getting at? Your "duhhhhhh" comment is not very specific. My post was an oblique critique of this blog and many of the individuals who are posting here since good number of people are ignoring scriptural instructions on how to deal with church related conflicts when dealing with elders in the church.

New BBC Open Forum said...

lwood,

Remember -- "Think before hitting 'Send.'" Let's all please try to let cooler heads prevail.

Thanks,

NBBCOF

Ed_T said...

Yo, Ed. The Bible is always, one way or another, relevant.

I didn't say the Bible wasn't relevant. I said the "bear story" wasn't relevant, at least your friends rather imaginative interpretation and embellishment of it.

A similar story surrounding Moses and the destruction of some Israelites who oppose him was told as "advice" to an ex-deacon friend of mine by a deacon officer. Of course, the deacon officer said, "I'm not saying that's going to happen to you." (Yeah, right.)

Maybe we should pause here and relate the story of Ananias and Sapphira who weren't completely open and honest with their financial dealings when handling the Lord's money?

phil413 said...

Josh,
Do you really believe that to ask a long time minister to leave the church and to tell the congregation that the minister left on his own accord is handling it in a tactful and Biblical manner? Do you have scales over your eyes as it relates to issues with the pastor and upper mgmt? Along with the things that SG has done to hurt our Church, I still see things he has done for the glory of our Lord. For instance while he was preaching on Wed. night in Union City he took his own time to go and share Jesus with the football team at UTM. One of the most intriguing aspects about this whole thing is that people can't look at the issues and see them for what they are. Even though I admire SG for the many good things he does, it still doesn't make wrong, right.
Phil. 4:13
David Matlock

Josh Tucker said...

Mr. Matlock,

I do not wish to imply or suggest that I am operating with blinders on.

I am not in a position of leadership at our church, nor am I a personal friend of Pastor Gaines, and neither am I anything close to being a peer of his. Unless I have been aggrieved personally, as a layman outside of the leadership structure, I am not in a position to deal with issues pertaining to church leadership (as in - it is not my place to directly chastise, exhort, chide, or admonish the church leadership, especially publicly). Likewise, an issue such as the one you referenced, even amongst the leadership, should be dealt with in private, and not in a public manner.

Tim said...

Josh,

And once those that have done that have been ignored, belittled and bullied, what should we do then. Evil depends upon good men doing nothing.

Tim said...

THE CHURCH CHOIR PLEDGE

Yep, get ready, because that is what is next on the agenda. The choir was approached this Wednesday to find out who had problems with the way things were being done in the church...heh..heh..and are planning on breaking the group down into smaller groups of 10-20 at a time to facilate our understanding and willingness to "conform" to our leaders.

Incredible isn't it.

I think there must be something in the water. This could get quite interesting. I don't think that there is any doubt where I stand on this issue. Let me know if you need some clarification.

Tim said...

I pledge that I will clap on demand, wave my hands in the air when requested, jump around like a nut if you want. Shoot, I'll even turn cart wheels up and down the aisles in the name of facilitating the enticement of the crowd into praise.

New BBC Open Forum said...

Tim,

That could be hazardous to your health! Just look what happened to these unsuspecting souls!

NASS

Churchmouse said...

From Merrium-Webster's Collegiate Dictionary Eleventh Edition: "abuse (noun) 1. a corrupt practice or custom, 2. improper use or excessive treatment 3. a deceitful act, 4. language that condemns or villifies, usually unjustly and angrily 5. physical maltreatment...mean, vehemently expressed condemnation or disapproval. ABUSE the most general term usually implies the anger of the speaker and harshness of the language"
MKW, I think what you are referring to would be classified as torture. In my opinion, the word abuse fits. It's not pretty, is it?

Bin Wonderin said...

Abuse carries a connotation that may be somewhat inaccurate. Perhaps there is another word that could be used?

"Abuse" is a loaded work in today's societal use. In everyday useage "abuse" typically infers physical abuse unless a qualifier such as "verbal abuse" is used. When I hear the word "abused" I picture physical abuse. It is a strong word as it is used today. When I hear "harass" I picture the verbal type of abuse. However, Sister Pam's use of the word does fit within the selections offered by the dictinary definition of the word.

Several of these look like they would work. Not that you'd want a leader to treat staff in a way that makes any of these words applicable.

—Synonyms
alternative words.
1. misapply. 2. ill-use, maltreat, injure, harm, hurt. 3. vilify, vituperate, berate, scold; slander, defame, calumniate, traduce. 6. misapplication. 7. slander, aspersion. Abuse, censure, invective all mean strongly expressed disapproval. Abuse implies an outburst of harsh and scathing words against another (often one who is defenseless): abuse directed against an opponent. Censure implies blame, adverse criticism, or hostile condemnation: severe censure of acts showing bad judgment. Invective applies to strong but formal denunciation in speech or print, often in the public interest: invective against graft.

—Antonyms
praise.

Anonymous said...

Tim said...
I pledge that I will clap on demand, wave my hands in the air when requested, jump around like a nut if you want. Shoot, I'll even turn cart wheels up and down the aisles in the name of facilitating the enticement of the crowd into praise.

1:38 AM, November 11, 2006


New BBC Open Forum said...
Tim,

That could be hazardous to your health! Just look what happened to these unsuspecting souls!

NASS


I appreciate a good bit of hyperbole as much as the next person. Even if the next person is Jon Lovitz.

However, good jokes are based, at least to a minute degree, in the truth. Since there has never been a demand for clapping, hand-waving, jumping, cartwheels, or any other form of "enticement" provided by the choir, perhaps you can explain the presumed truth that gave birth to such hyperbole?

Otherwise, you people are just mocking those who worship in a different way than you do--and surely, that can't be the case.

--Mike

phil413 said...

Josh and MKW,
Would you have us sit idly by and not even express our displeasure? There have been long time ministers, some I considered friends, mistreated to the extent that I am ashamed. If I pretend there is no problem, as some of my close church friends have done, then I feel that I am an accomplice to the deeds myself. I still have some good friends on staff and I know that they cannot express their true feelings for fear of being demonized or losing their ministry. I guess the worst thing that could be done to me would be not letting me coach ball teams or teach. I truly pray that doesn't happen but that would be a small price to pay for doing what I feel the Lord wants me to do.
Phil. 4:13
David Matlock
PS Josh, Please don't call me mister, That would be my Dad. LOL

Bell22 said...

How many of you would sign a agreement to pledge of allegiance to the pastor? Josh,Mike,NASS,xd19,sg,others.What if you did not sign and it cost you your BFT job chior ,coaching ,parts in plays, would you sign just to keep your postion? I want a answer not a statement that has nothing to do with this question.

Churchmouse said...

NO

cjesusnme said...

NO

ilovebbc said...

Bell22,

It's rather ironic that you just posted about a pledge to the pastor and asking how many would sign such a pledge. I just drafted one that I think I'll drop in the container tomorrow along with my love offering. If anyone else wants to join me, feel free to copy this and sign your own name and drop it in the slot tomorrow. I expect those retrieving the checks would prefer that we not put our slips of paper in the envelope - just drop it in separately. . . . . .

"I, an active member of Bellevue Baptist Church wish to convey to my Pastor, Steve Gaines my affirmation of him as God’s appointed and God’s anointed Pastor of Bellevue Baptist Church. I commit myself to serve God and our Church family under his leadership and to free him up to do the work to which God has called him to do. I demonstrate my support for Pastor Gaines by signing my name to this motion and placing it in the annual Love Offering container in the morning worship service on November 12, 2006."

___________________________
Signature

phil413 said...

NO

Tim said...

Mike,

On the contrary, It is those who mock the way that I worship because it is not as charasmatic as what they prefer. Unfortunately, these are the people that are supposed to be our leaders.
And they mock us.

Tim said...

mkw,

Please tell us what Biblical basis you have to make a grand stand show of support. Do tell also, what Biblical basis you have to pray and let God handle it all, while we do nothing else. Remember to keep your text within context. God has Biblically sent men and women to confront and condemn evil for a long time. I don't know why God chooses to use men and women to something that he could so easily do for Himself. His ways are not my ways, but I follow Him, in whatever direction that may lead.

ilovebbc said...

MKW,
I agree. We should sign a pledge of allegiance to no one. To avoid any misunderstanding or confusion that's why I put the word "support" in place of the word "loyalty" in the pledge posted above.

choice_is_yours said...

unposted

Mike Bratton said...
Choice, when angels share good news, I agree that they don't have to give their names.

However, anti-Bellevue types aren't angelic in either nature or behavior, so your repeated attempts to excuse anonymous sniping fall short of the mark.

For the folks referencing my article "The Bears," you might have glossed over the part of the story regarding love and concern for those who bear ill will towards the Bellevue senior staff and lay leadership.

Yo, Ed. The Bible is always, one way or another, relevant.

--Mike

5:20 PM, November 10, 2006



My goal for being at this blog is to help brothers and sisters in Christ worship God and fulfill the Great Commission.

Mike Bratton, don't ever change! (much). You are beautiful in Christ. Go with me to a Mormon or Bhuddist blog sometime. We can witness to them together.

When I read your words, with God's love and help, here is the gentle statement that comes through:

"Choice, when [one] share[s] good news [(truth)], I agree that they don't have to give their names.

However, [some] aren't [loving] in either nature or behavior, so [one should not] excuse [their statements]."




My statement a few days ago was that messages should be considered only on the basis of loving conduct and truthful content.


***So you and I continue to be in agreement in truthful content. We just need to be more gentle with each other in loving conduct.***






You are also comparing angels to non-angels. Let's do that with biblical examples, but let's first continue to compare angels to angels.

I've already compared three godly angelic encounters in Luke.

An example of a "good angel" giving "(true) bad news" is Matthew 2:13 when an anonymous angel brought (true) bad news, "...Herod is going to search for the child to kill him."

An example of a "bad angel" giving (false) "bad news (which was tempting to think was good news/true)" would be the serpent in the garden telling Eve to eat fruit from the forbidden tree.

For application to carrying out the Great Commission let's consider the conduct and content of an extra-biblical angelic account.

Consider how you could explain the night Jesus was born to a Muslim. They are familiar with what they call the "Night of Power." That's the night the Koran was "born."

Tell the Muslim about the night Jesus was born. Especially tell about the angel that spoke to the shepherds.

1) Arrival of the angel
2) Fear on the part of the mortal
3) Reassurance from the angel. (Emphasize this).
4) A message
5) A method to test the message. (Emphasize this).
6) Departure of the angel
7) The testing of the message confirms the angel is from God. (Emphasize this).

Then ask the Muslim if that sounds like the "Night of Power." Ask him to tell you the story so that you don't say it wrong and offend him. You'll note the conduct and the message content of the one speaking to Mohammad on the "Night of Power." As he tells the story listen and try to follow using the Luke outline. Especially note parts 3 and 5. Listen for the last part:

7) Mohammad doesn't know how to confirm the anonymous messenger was from God and is in fear all night. Finally he goes to someone he thinks is a Christian for help.

Ask the Muslim if he believes Muslims should follow in Mohammad's footsteps.

Then say to the Muslim, "Mohammad, in a time of spiritual uncertainty, turned to someone he believed was a Christian. You should do like Mohammad in this way."

At this point you have access to all available Christian witnessing tracts and Evangelism Explosion materials. You now have a way to go directly into any of those materials.

Tim said...

mkw,

Also, no one has asked you to detail things of which you know nothing about. We do however, ask that those that do be allowed to speak. It is heresay and innuendo to say that their claims are pointless.

My brother you have written much, without saying anything.

New BBC Open Forum said...

Since the subject is being discussed in here, too, I'll repost this:

ilovebbc,

While your heart may be in the right place, your note, I think, would not. This would be no different than the person back in the "Tithes" thread who commented, "I have been putting my tithe envelope in each week with a message such as 'I am withholding my offering until all business of the church has been resolved.'" Both may reflect your opinions about everything that's going on right now, but neither is the time nor the place to express your opinion or to "send a message," regardless of the message, to the pastor or anyone else. Anyone who can't give an offering without making a written "political statement" along with it should just not give -- in my humble opinion.

Tim's right. Don't turn the offering chest into a ballot box which is what you'd be doing.

NASS

New BBC Open Forum said...

bell22,

NO

NASS

BBCDad said...

Titus 3
Doing What is Good
1Remind the people to be subject to rulers and authorities, to be obedient, to be ready to do whatever is good, 2to slander no one, to be peaceable and considerate, and to show true humility toward all men.
3At one time we too were foolish, disobedient, deceived and enslaved by all kinds of passions and pleasures. We lived in malice and envy, being hated and hating one another. 4But when the kindness and love of God our Savior appeared, 5he saved us, not because of righteous things we had done, but because of his mercy. He saved us through the washing of rebirth and renewal by the Holy Spirit, 6whom he poured out on us generously through Jesus Christ our Savior, 7so that, having been justified by his grace, we might become heirs having the hope of eternal life. 8This is a trustworthy saying. And I want you to stress these things, so that those who have trusted in God may be careful to devote themselves to doing what is good. These things are excellent and profitable for everyone.

9But avoid foolish controversies and genealogies and arguments and quarrels about the law, because these are unprofitable and useless. 10Warn a divisive person once, and then warn him a second time. After that, have nothing to do with him. 11You may be sure that such a man is warped and sinful; he is self-condemned.

Tim said...

bbcdad,

An interesting thing about Titus 3, it is preceded by Titus 1 and 2.

Titus 1:10-14

10 For there are many unruly and vain talkers and deceivers, specially they of the circumcision:
11 whose mouths must be stopped, who subvert whole houses, teaching things which they ought not, for filthy lucre's sake.
12 One of themselves, even a prophet of their own, said, The Cretians are always liars, evil beasts, slow bellies.
13 This witness is true. Wherefore rebuke them sharply, that they may be sound in the faith;
14 not giving heed to Jewish fables, and commandments of men, that turn from the truth.

This can be a difficult passage and it well may be misdirected to those of this blog. I will however, expound upon it.

Verse 10-refers to religious leaders in the church with a deceitful message.
Verse 11-refers to their purpose, which is dishonest money.
Verse 12-refers to their sin in demoralizing men.
Verse 13-verifies that it is true and commands that these be dutifully reprimanded.
Verse 14-states that these should be restored to the truth

Titus 2 proceeds to detail the qualifications of a deacon and Titus 3 is a description of the unity that should exist within the Chrurch.

My dear brother before we can get to Titus 3, we must first go thru Titus 1 and 2.

deceivedagain said...

MKW,
There are a lot of websites on "spirtiual abuse". This sight is just one of many.

http://www.spiritualabuse.org/introduction.html

Anonymous said...

Thanks Tim. Well said and said well.

deceivedagain said...

Another good explanation that "All Believers" are annointed.

http://www.spiritualabuse.org/mywritings/authority.html

deceivedagain said...

Apiritual abuse defined:

Spiritual abuse is the misuse of a position of power, leadership, or influence to further the selfish interests of someone other than the individual who needs help. Sometimes abuse arises out of a doctrinal position. At other times it occurs because of legitimate personal needs of a leader that are being met by illegitimate means. Spiritually abusive religious systems are sometimes described as legalistic, mind controlling, religiously addictive, and authoritarian.

COMMON CHARACTERISTICS
#1) Authoritarian
The most distinctive characteristic of a spiritually abusive religious system, or leader, is the over-emphasis on authority. Because a group claims to have been established by God Himself the leaders in this system claim the right to command their followers.

This authority supposedly comes from the position they occupy. In Matthew 23:1-2 Jesus said the Scribes and Pharisees "sit in Moses' seat," a position of spiritual authority. Many names are used but in the abusive system this is a position of power, not moral authority. The assumption is that God operates among His people through a hierarchy, or "chain of command." In this abusive system unconditional submission is often called a "covering," or "umbrella of protection" which will provide some spiritual blessing to those who fully submit. Followers may be told that God will bless their submission even if the leadship is wrong. It is not their place to judge or correct the leadership - God will see to that.

moosergs said...

I have been reading this blog for approximately two months. I agree with most people that are dissatified with the current leadership. I've been wondering, how wide spread is all of the dissatifaction? I personally know two deacons and I would be shocked if they signed a loyalty pledge to anyone. Is there really anything that can be done or are we just complaining. I know I've been visiting another church, waiting to see what happens. I don't really think anything will change.

phil413 said...

MKW,
Do you not think my choice of words are appropriate? You obviously don't mind that our pastor Called Mark Sharpe Hezbollah. I don't understand the double standard. Where do you draw the line on taking action? When we were in need of a pastor should we have sat by and said God will send us one when he is ready. If you see someone being robbed do you walk by and pray for that individual? I would ask God for strength and do everything I could to stop the crime. I guess that's the difference between our personalties. I pray for our beloved Bellevue daily but I think God gives us Christians the discernment and ability to know and do what is right in our hearts.
I believe that the point in Phil.4:13
David Matlock

Anonymous said...

choice_is_yours said... Mike Bratton, don't ever change! (much). You are beautiful in Christ. Go with me to a Mormon or Bhuddist blog sometime. We can witness to them together.

Send me an e-mail whenever you have someplace in mind. I became involved in Internet witnessing and apologetics well over ten years ago, and it has been gratifying over that time to see how God uses people like us working in this medium to spread the Gospel message, and to see people radically and dramatically saved.

--Mike

Anonymous said...

I have waited a while to see if this mess would get better. Apparently it is not. I never thought I would say that I was ashamed to be a member of Bellevue but I am. I am going to look for a new church home. One where leadership respects its membership more than current leadership at Bellevue is.

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