Tuesday, November 14, 2006

Another New Deacon Loyalty Pledge Thread

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386 comments:

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Anonymous said...

I Timothy 3:2 A bishop then must be blameless, the husband of one wife, vigilant, sober, of good behaviour, given to hospitality, apt to teach;

I Timothy 3:3 Not given to wine, no striker, not greedy of filthy lucre; but patient, not a brawler, not covetous;

I Timothy 3:4 One that ruleth well his own house, having his children in subjection with all gravity;

I Timothy 3:5 (For if a man know not how to rule his own house, how shall he take care of the church of God?)

I Timothy 3:6 Not a novice, lest being lifted up with pride he fall into the condemnation of the devil.

I Timothy 3:7 Moreover he must have a good report of them which are without; lest he fall into reproach and the snare of the devil.

I Timothy 3:8 Likewise [must] the deacons [be] grave, not doubletongued, not given to much wine, not greedy of filthy lucre;

I Timothy 3:9 Holding the mystery of the faith in a pure conscience.

I Timothy 3:10 And let these also first be proved; then let them use the office of a deacon, being [found] blameless.

I Timothy 3:11 Even so [must their] wives [be] grave, not slanderers, sober, faithful in all things.

I Timothy 3:12 Let the deacons be the husbands of one wife, ruling their children and their own houses well.

I Timothy 3:13 For they that have used the office of a deacon well purchase to themselves a good degree, and great boldness in the faith which is in Christ Jesus.

Are we suppose to follow scriptures or not?

Anonymous said...

Some of this thread is mind boggling to me.

The world is waiting to see someone who will keep their word.

The world is waiting to see someone keep GOD`s word.

It does appear that there are some on here who really have a desire to see that GOD`s word is lived out.

I find that most refreshing and I think a good many in the world would agree with me.

There is enough phoney baloney Christianity in the world.

What new about one more fallen pastor?

If you hold your pastor and church officials accoutable, the world will, so keep up the good work!

Anonymous said...

Please make that

If you DON`T hold your pastor and church officials accoutable,the world will, so keep up the good work!

Karen said...

To ilovebbc,

My list of hurts done directly to Dr. Whitmire was posted at 2:08 pm 11/14/06 on the other "New Deacon Loyalty Pledge Thread".

Thanks! Karen

Anonymous said...

Custos - welcome back. Your intellect is much needed. I hope this does not interfere with your walk nor your studies.

Pastor Dave - Thank You for your discourse and your convictions. Your desire for balance is a needed rudder in this forum.

Matthew 18 and/or 1 Corinthians. I dont know the answer. I do know Christ asks us to approach things as a child.

"I will destroy the wisdom of the wise; the intelligence of the intelligent I will frustrate."


I come as a child to ask this question. Where is BBC shepherd amongst these waves?

John 10:4-5

4 After he has gathered his own flock, he walks ahead of them, and they follow him because they recognize his voice. 5 They won’t follow a stranger; they will run from him because they don’t recognize his voice.”

Like a blind child - I just ask to hear his voice.

God Bless - Mark

New BBC Open Forum said...

Reposted from the other thread:

Andrew said...

Did you and all the other deacons, during your statement review session, personally examine all the credit card statements and reciepts or did you review a power point presentation rather than most of the actual credit card statements?

9:42 PM, November 14, 2006

Tim said...

Can our deacon body possibly believe that this strong arm tactic will possibly make things any better?

Do they not see that this would do nothing to unify our church, but only cause further division?

Why instead of desperately seeking an answer of politics, do they not seek to investigate and do what ever is necessary to rectify the situation?

whynotask said...

Truth Hunter
I like one that seeks the truth no matter what the cost! May God's wisdom help you in your quest. We will continue asking the tough questions.

Anonymous said...

I think that we need someone to step up and help us through this.

Surely there must be a Godly man somewhere who would bring trust and patience back into the situation and put a stop to the problems and help God bring healing and restoration.

Is there no one who can lead us home?

*

Ed_T said...

I think many of us need to ask THE question: Is Bellevue still the place for me and/or my family?

As the Lord used the persecution of the saints in Jerusalem to spread them out into the world after Pentecost, so He may be using all this to send some of us out to minister elsewhere. Just a thought.

As much as it would pain me to leave after 25+ years, we are praying about it. Bellevue may just not be the place for some of us to worship and serve any longer. (Yes, I hear the "AMENS" even now from the "if you don't like it, leave" crowd.)

Many of the children's BSF teachers spent 2 1/2 hours in a Children's Leadership meeting the other night with most of the Communications Committee. It was somewhat encouraging and I think that if they didn't know already, they found out that those hurting and concerned are probably up in the 30%+ range of membership - as opposed to just a "handful" - if the 1st-5th grade leadership was any representative sampling. Still, I'm not sure any significant changes will be forthcoming.

The irony of all this is that Mark Sharpe and Richard Emerson originally went to Brother Steve under the concern that SG was being put in a position that set him up for failure - the position being that there was little oversight and by-laws to regulate accountability within the church.

In my opinion, "it's been done that way for 30 years" is oblivious to the reality that "BBC, Inc" is much bigger than it was years ago - more money, more responsibility. If the church doesn't have by-laws to govern administrative behavior or to oversee it, then we're asking for an Enron-like situation to develop.

Ed Thompson

P.S. Some may call it trivial, but back to one of the credit card issues. Regardless of whether or not the card was misused, wasn't one of the charges in question regarding a dinner at Ruth Chris steak house involving some visiting ministers?

Why should the tithes of the members of BBC be used to pay for dinner at one of the most expensive restaurants in town? I can feed all 5 of my family at some relatively nice restaurants for what one person would pay there. However, since most of the "elders" at the top of the deacon ladder are quite well off, I imagine they think nothing of signing off for $60-$75 per person dinners to allow the pastor to entertain visitors. However, I don't think this is wise stewardship of the church's money - thus the earlier reference to "BBC, Inc".

Anonymous said...

Though I admire and respect the retraction, I think the picture on SB was a huge error and a wrong thing to do. But frankly there is plenty of that to go around.

Certainly there are legitimate times to identify and deal with a wrong but please don't just lob it out there for no good reason. And just to clarify, gripping is not a good reason, confessing for the sake of repentance is. Got any of those you want to start us off with?

Honestly people, put the rocks down.

We really need to be pure, holy, blameless and full of love for God and each other and controlled by the Holy Spirit not the flesh. We need to forgive quickly and deal firmly with sin (our own first) but always with grace and mercy. Seeking to teach and to train and to nurture each other.

Don't get me wrong, let's get the leaven out but let's deal with one another as Christ would have us. He alone is the Head. He is the Groom. He alone will ultimately handle all our sin. Let's be faithful in loving devotion to him and give Him every reason to be proud of us.

Hey how about a foot washing gathering where we all see who can wash the most feet and confess the most sin?

Should that happen before or after we get the leaven out?

*

New BBC Open Forum said...

david wrote:

"After seeing the picture Mike presented, it is hard to think that anyone connected with savingbellevue.com is very interested in 'unity.'"

Let me repeat this ver... y... slow... ly.... "We"... are... not... con... nect... ed... with... sa... ving... belle... vue... . com. Now, how many times must I repeat that?

NBBCOF

stillwaitingandwatching said...

Wise words, Andrew....

I will start by washing Pastor David's feet and Mike Bratton's feet.

My sincere humble apologies for acting in the flesh in dealing with you two brothers in Christ.

Anonymous said...

Amen waitingandwatching...

I know you just pleased your Father very much.

Let's all keep and eye on ourselves and each other. Isn't that what all this is about anyway?

Let's do what we want done.

Let us go first, and in His strength and forgiveness, move forward toward personal reconciliation with one another.

Let love cover what it will and let us all be humble in the rest that must be dealt with.

*

Anonymous said...

MKW posted: Your hatred for your brother is appalling. If your defense is that he is "not your brother," because you deem him to be unrepentant, perhaps proving in your mind that he is unsaved, then why the vociferous bile? Scripture teaches us to treat the LOST better than some are treating Dr. Gaines.

Hisservant, you have labored hard today, and I wouldn't blame you if you shook the putrid dust of this blog right off your feet.

Sister Pam, I really try to give you credit, but continuing to post "abuse-abuse-abuse-abuse-abuse-abuse" is irresponsible, at best, and severely damaging to the credibility of those who are accusing our Pastor, let alone a complete sabotage of any attempt at reconciliation between the Whitmires and Dr. Gaines. If you truly want to see reconciliation, then please keep silent about this from this point further. You have made your point.

So many posts have implored you all to stop all this, and others have claimed in a positive vein that it looks like healing and restoration are taking place, and you are actually rejoicing! I see NOTHING to rejoice over here as the character of a man is being destroyed by continuing to post what you think you know.

Please, let the committee do its job. If the committee fails, invoke Matt. 18 on them and follow the Scripture. If there are truly as many of you as you claim, THEN step out of your anonymity and take this before the church (not just your accusations, but your identities, as well) -- surely you have nothing to fear if there are thousands of you and if the truth is on your side!

I am not stating things I don't know as fact. I'm doing my best to speak reasonably and to implore you all with all my heart. This is damaging to all concerned. You are accomplishing NOTHING but the advancement of your own agenda.




REPLY: GREAT post and thanks!!

Anonymous said...

many of you claim Matthew 18 has not been able to be fulfilled and are using that as a crutch and an excuse for this blog and other things. there is NO excuse.

where in matt 18 does it talk about a time limit? where does it say if things cannot be handled according to matt 18 than you have the "right" to do whatever it takes?? where? many think Matt 18 has been tried by both sides. that is not the point though. the point is, there is no excuse for this blog and others. some still have concerns and that is fine and ok, but do things the right way. slander and lies and feeding off of each other is not the right way. many have admitted they have let their emotions get the best of them etc. the entire WORLD is seeing this.

some have stated that you have the "right". you are Americans and you have the "right".

the real question should be do you have a right as a Christian. if we are truly dead to Self as we should be, we have NO rights. our rights, emotions, etc etc are not ours if we are a child of God.

Anonymous said...

posted: Are we talking about the "Bellevue" in Cordova, Tennessee? Just wondering. There are many things being done at the Bellevue in Cordova that are very Rick Warren like. Plenty of examples have been discussed in earlier threads, so I need not list them all here.

NASS



REPLY: I for one would love to see this list.

Anonymous said...

After months of reading SB & the blogs, I'll wade in and then go away. I've been a Christian for 40 years. I'm by no means perfect and struggle with the world about me but I trust in the Grace of God for my Salvation through the shedding of the Blood of Jesus Christ.

I'm somewhat of a Cynic and have little faith in men. I pray daily for God's will to be done on Earth as it is in Heaven and I know that he is well able to bring it about in His time.

I grew up at Berclair Baptist, went to Briarcrest Baptist when Brother Allen was forced to separate the church and then to Bellevue for quite some time. My mother has been at Bellevue for over 20 years. Like so many, she is now visiting GBC.

I teach Sunday school to 5th grade at another church and I facilitate a Small Group of Christians that has met for the last 3 years in each of our homes.

I often feel self conscious of my own sin and thus feel inadequate to engage however I'll press on to offer a few thoughts.

In keeping on topic let me first say that I recoil at the thought of the pledge. There have been many Scriptures cited that should give pause. I can appreciate the show of support but not with "dismissal" of those who have been "disenfranchised".

If the Pastor and Deacons had sat down with those who had concerns and given a full accounting to THEIR satisfaction maybe none of us would be here now.

Going forward:

Some people posting to the site appear to be ill-informed of the facts. And though they have a love for the church, it does not appear that their heart and spirit are sensitive to those who are hurting. They discount the alledged "inproprieties" and seem to be focused on shutting down the blog. They keep on bringing up Matthew 18 as though it has not been tried and that's somewhat irritating.

They are bothered by the concerned people who want to discuss the church business "out there" for others to see. I must say that I am personally inspired by the Testimony of these men & women who love God & their church enough to discourse and I can't help but think it's a good thing...I hope that I'm not wrong.

I'm reminded that Job questioned God... but never sinned. And in the end he was RESTORED.

There are Deacons writing on the blog who want to assure everyone that they KNOW the facts and ALL IS WELL. I guess we could all take a deep breath and rest in that assurance...but that won't do. Yes, I know that they love God & their church and want nothing more than reconciliation as we all do.

Some of the allegations seem petty when reading from the sidelines but some of the FACTS are quite offensive & I agree with Tim...Sinful.

Question: If the Pastor & Deacons met with MS and others and answered their concerns with a full accounting where would it lead? Why wouldn't he want to take this step of reconcilliation?

Question: If the Pastor addressed the congregation and apologized (for what some would say was "sinful" behavior in that he told "half-truths" & demeaned the Bellevue congregation)would it help the church & himself going forward? If so, why wouldn't he want to do it?

Question: If the Pastor & a group of men jumped a fence to reconcile with MS, why haven't they "jumped the fence" on the way to the Whitmire's house? If things were "handled badly", why do we need "committees" to straighten them out?

I have many more questions but I don't want to overstay my welcome.

In closing let me say that I and many more Christian men & women who do not go to Bellevue are in prayer for each of you on this site, the Pastor & the the entire congregation. We are all the body of Christ and when one part of the body is in pain, we are all affected and desire healing & comfort.

There are those who say that it is too late for SG to reconcile and indeed it may be. But I think that attitude might not give deference to the Will of God.

Pray that God's Will Be Done & Seek the TRUTH.

Respectfully,

BFG

Anonymous said...

Amen

BFG - I love You Brother

Anonymous said...

"truth hunter" posted:

The pastor's conduct is understandable. After all, what can he say about: arrogance, accepting kickbacks for holy land trips (he has done this for years, he can't hide it), allowing the church to pay for a country club membership with tithes, booting beloved staff, shamelessly promoting his book through a Bible study, employing the relatives of two of the search committee members (what chutzpah that takes), calling Mark Sharpe "Hezbollah" in front of witnesses, standing in the pulpit in Union City and laughing about not allowing others to speak, kicking a deacon out for having the temerity to question his actions, refusing to call a business meeting, marketing the church like it is a cheap six-pack of beer in ads designed to look like strip joint ads (in a magazine that prints strip joint ads), mistreating Doctor Rogers before he died (get the facts on this, it will infuriate you), bullying people, lying about why he went to Mark Sharpe's house the night of the fence incident (if he wanted to reconcile he would have done it long ago, clearly that was not his purpose), sending emissaries to quiet down a saint of God who says "Amen" too loudly (I believe he really did tell Mark D. he had that dream. If not, Mark D. is an inveterate liar. Clearly one of them is.), agreeing to sell the church organ, etc. That is hardly an exhaustive list. I do not need to delve into credit cards or purpose-driven life to know we have a problem. Notice, that all happened at Bellevue. I took pity on him and withheld his actions at Gardendale and Jackson.



REPLY:

1. WOW
2. I will never resort to the kind of anger and threats you have posted. truly sad!
3. so your thoughts and actions depend on what people post on here? that is very sad! VERY. your threats speaks volumes about your "truth".
4. country club membership?? Dr. Rogers had one for years and years without one word said. Dr. Gaines has canceled his.
5. he did not call Mark Sharpe "Hezbollah". the word was used, BUT that did not happen
6. promoting his book? you must be joking!! they GAVE EVERYONE (800+) the book.
7. the i2 ad?? WOW is all I can say. you might want to go to any Christian bookstore anywhere and look at the cover of praise CD's. there was NOTHING even with close to wrong with that picture/ad. Brother Steve does NOT design those things. we have a department that does and they do a great job. it is beyond me how anyone could see what you and others have discribed when looking at that ad.
8. mistreating Dr. Rogers? what next, unreal. seems you need to get a lot of facts straight
9. there was no dream. period. it is very simple

it is unreal how you will sit on this website and disrespect and slander Brother Steve that is God's anointed. there is NO excuse for your slander and the Bible is very clear on this matter. crystal clear. regarding Brother Steve and his past churches etc. so ALL of the search committee members and the entire SBC and it's pastors are in the dark about all these things you are saying? if he was so bad at Gardendale, why no problems like here? to be honest, I will go no further on this, because your post full of anger does not deserve my time or anyone elses.

Anonymous said...

David,

We are about love and relationship. The medium, in my opinion, is exclusive or irrelevant. I understand your concern, but my concern is more of another world rather than the world we live in.

God Bless, Mark

Anonymous said...

david posted : You hit the nail on the head. The excuse being given for this blog is that the Bible can't be carried out, so other means are being sought. However, this not only dishonors Matthew 18 but the command of Paul not to present our case before the world.

I know it annoys some of you to keep harping on Matthew 18 and 1 Cor. 6 and the Scriptures; but you are at this point doing real damage to the Church. (By the way, friends, when you slap the Bride how do you think her husband will react?)


REPLY: thanks and very well said

Anonymous said...

David,

My brother. The medium I seek is His spirit. It is not limited to TV, Radio, Pulpit, Friends, Parents, or this blessed discourse. I love the Lord and I will not allow the arithmetic to get in the way of mathematics, so to speak. I Love you brother. I seek God and I look for His Voice everywhere. God Help me - We, Perhaps get perplexed in our complexity

In Him, Mark

Anonymous said...

phil413 posted: Hisservant said,
REPLY: "NO, he did not lie about that. it is very simple and has been explained 100 times."
Please explain it to me one more time. I guess I'm a little dense. SG told the congregation on Sunday night that he doesn't preach on Wed. nights so he can raise a Godly family. That very night he was supposed to be in Union City but was at Bellevue having the info meeting. Do you think he didn't know he would be preaching there wed night. There were flyers all around Union city advertising this. Do you believe they told him on Mon. that he would be preaching on Wed. I may be dense but I'm not gullable


REPLY: for the 100th time. these revivals and preaching deals have been scheduled for months and months and months! yes he knew. you are splitting hairs big time like with everything else. i guess because he said what he said he could never be gone on Wed. somewhere? never? this stuff is just nuts. should he have called a meeting to tell us all there might be a few Wed. he will be gone doing revivals etc? he will not be doing this in the future like he has been. that is a fact. and if he was, i have NO problem with it at all. none

Anonymous said...

Thank you Job.

You reminded me of how big the body is and how incredible God is.

You know I wonder how many are really part of the body. If we practice sin and live with sinful ways can we have a hope of heaven and eternity with Jesus?

Consider...

Matt 7:23
23 "And then I will declare to them, 'I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness.' (or perhaps lovelessness?)

Rom 1:29-32
29 being filled with all unrighteousness, wickedness, greed, evil; full of envy, murder, strife, deceit, malice; {they are} gossips,
30 slanderers, haters of God, insolent, arrogant, boastful, inventors of evil, disobedient to parents,
31 without understanding, untrustworthy, unloving, unmerciful;
32 and, although they know the ordinance of God, that those who practice such things are worthy of death, they not only do the same, but also give hearty approval to those who practice them.

Gal 5:14-21
14 For the whole Law is fulfilled in one word, in the {statement} "You shall love your neighbor as yourself."
15 But if you bite and devour one another, take care lest you be consumed by one another.
16 But I say, walk by the Spirit, and you will not carry out the desire of the flesh.
17 For the flesh sets its desire against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh; for these are in opposition to one another, so that you may not do the things that you please.
18 But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the Law.
19 Now the deeds of the flesh are evident, which are: immorality, impurity, sensuality,
20 idolatry, sorcery, enmities, strife, jealousy, outbursts of anger, disputes, dissensions, factions,
21 envying, drunkenness, carousing, and things like these, of which I forewarn you just as I have forewarned you that those who practice such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.


My dear friends, I encourage you to read the surrounding verses...there is so much more.

And remember, doing good in His name is not the same as being called by His name.

Also, be careful of thinking that merely calling out "Lord, Lord" now or later will be sufficient for real salvation.

Faith is given to all, decision is ours, the walk is with Him and eternity our destination.

Take a moment before your God.

Loving you each.

*

Anonymous said...

mom4: the Deacons did not just see a spreadsheet, they saw the statements as well. ALL of them and had access to the actual credit card receipts. Brother Steve goes above and beyond in this area.

Anonymous said...

"truth" hunter: from your posts it seems you are doing everything but hunting the "truth". you now accuse men of defending the Pastor for business purposes?? unreal

Anonymous said...

Is there an unwritten code? Do pastors protect other pastors at the expense of hurting and dying sheep? Do the church leaders blindly protect one another's reputations for fear that their own sin might find them out (as if their own reputation might be the next one in question) ?

I would expect that from the world, not from the saints.

I have family members who have, in the past, been gravely ill. One continued to be progressively more ill due to physician error. Medical attention was actively sought for his problem, and almost noone would treat him. His primary doctor refused, and almost all other doctors refused to see him. There seems to be an unwritten code- protect your fellow doctors at all costs. Finally, a doctor was found that would address the issue- the first physician's error that could be remedied if treated- but ONLY if it were treated.

I have heard a pastor speak to his congregation with such openness and honesty that I was moved to brokenness and tears. He shared his own faults and failures, trials and tribulations, heartache and helplessness. He offered to step down as pastor. He loved his sheep so much that he would allow them to choose another if they didn't trust him anymore, so that they would not be without a shepherd. His sheep loved him. Sheep know when they are loved, cared for, and fed.

And this is how we know what love is, that Jesus Christ laid down His life for us.

Sheep also know when they have been mistreated... or worse. This sheep has been looking for another shepherd- one who treats his sheep as the Shepherd does, while grieving and praying for the flock that has been wounded.

The church is not a building, but a living body. Members of the church are unique, specially gifted and precious in the sight of the Head of the Church. Members are broken and bleeding. May we love one another, stop condemning the wounded, and speak with meekness and fear, in TRUTH and in LOVE.

"If any man offend not in word, the same is a perfect man and able to bridle the whole body"

Anonymous said...

i think many on here should listen to the sermon by Dr. Rogers on Unity in the Church he preached just before he died.

Anonymous said...

Hisservant,

I was told by someone at the meeting that the power point was used after the "I don't need to see this" dialogue and I understood him to further say that for the sake of time they didn't review all the actual paper statements after the powerpoint was introduced.

Were you there too?

And yes, the sermon is good isn't it?

*

Anonymous said...

Hisservant,

You know I am not concerned about the credit cards, spreadsheet, ect...It is more about his spirit in these matters. Let me go down wondering - but did (SG) demean the congregation of saints. One saint I have fallen in Love with is Dr. Adrian Rogers. He made Bellevue a praying church, an obedient church - why has this history been overlooked by current leadership. Is God's remnant inconsequential?

Humbly Questioning, Not beyond Rebuke. - Mark

Anonymous said...

karen posted:hisservant,

You said "where in matt 18 does it talk about a time limit?"
I'm not a Bible scholar, but doesn't Matthew 18, in essence, say go to your brother once, then twice then be done? Isn't that a "time line"? Mark Sharpe did all that. Just wondering.

This blog came out of the frustration of the failure of Matthew 18 - not before it was attempted and rebuffed by BBC leadership.


REPLY: frustration? so that is your excuse for the slander, rumors and lies that are on the blog?? frustration??

Anonymous said...

Maybe more aptly stated, Dr. Rogers continued the discipline of prayer.

choice_is_yours said...

Amazing grace! How sweet the sound
That saved a wretch like me!
I once was lost, but now am found;
Was blind, but now I see.

’Twas grace that taught my heart to fear,
And grace my fears relieved;
How precious did that grace appear
The hour I first believed!

Through many dangers, toils and snares,
I have already come;
’Tis grace hath brought me safe thus far,
And grace will lead me home.

The Lord has promised good to me,
His Word my hope secures;
He will my Shield and Portion be,
As long as life endures.

Yea, when this flesh and heart shall fail,
And mortal life shall cease,
I shall possess, within the veil,
A life of joy and peace.

The earth shall soon dissolve like snow,
The sun forbear to shine;
But God, Who called me here below,
Will be forever mine.

When we’ve been there ten thousand years,
Bright shining as the sun,
We’ve no less days to sing God’s praise
Than when we’d first begun.

choice_is_yours said...

Our Father,
Who Art in Heaven
Hallowed be thy name
Thy kingdom come
Thy will be done
On Earth as it is in Heaven

Give us this day our daily bread
And forgive us our trespasses
As we forgive those who trespass against us

And lead us not into temptation
But deliver us from evil

For thine is the kingdom and the power and the gloty

Forever and ever

Amen.

choice_is_yours said...

Dr. Gaines, Mark Sharpe,


I am glad that the two of you have come here to talk.


Please introduce yourselves to each other in the name of Christ.


And let's stop for the night before the moderator comes in and shuts down the commenting options.


It is a joy to see the two of you talking.


Let's all get some sleep.

Nothing good will come this late at night.

Peace be with you.

Anonymous said...

"truth" hunter posted:

hisservant,

How dare you? Your treatment of Karen is shameful. You have provoked me and I must respond.

I don't know where Karen got her list. What I do know is I got the SAME list from DR. WHITMIRE personally. I then confirmed it with others who had direct knowledge. I have known those things for several weeks. Many others know of this as well.

If men like you and Derrick Calcote do not stop accusing posters like Karen of spreading rumors, I will start posting all of the things I KNOW. Some of them will not be pretty and they will paint an even worse picture of the pastor. I am sick of the bullying some of you are doing of honest church members expressing their opinions. It has become all too common for leaders in our church (see I still assume you are a deacon since you never denied it) to bully the flock. No more! This behavior has to stop. These dear church members are Christian brothers and sisters who don't want to argue and hate to fight, especially in the church. They are too nice for their own good. They are too nice for the good of Bellevue.

I am ready to fight back and I am strong enough to fight back hard. My sword is the truth. You are on notice, some of us see through you and the pastor. Some of us know things and we are not going to let you sink our church. I have the money to buy every billbord in Memphis and Birmingham to broadcast what I KNOW. If you do not stop your disgusting treatment of the church and start leveling with the people, I may be in the billboard business real soon. I will buy airtime on rock radio stations (just like our church is doing) and broadcast the truth. Stop dissembling. Stop covering. Start thinking for yourself.

I want to be clear. I have not spoken with Mark Sharpe in several years and I am in no way involved with Saving Bellevue. When this started I did not know what to believe. At first I was furious about the internet site and I cheered along with everyone else for the pastor. I complained to the Commerical Appeal. However, after studying the pastor's demeanor, I decided to investigate for myself. I grew concerned I might be on the wrong side. My point: I speak for myself. I speak based on what I learned through the staff at Bellevue, Mid-America, Union University, and Southwestern. I have also made trips to Jackson and to Birmingham to investigate. I talked with deacons and staff of both churches. I talked to men who knew the pastor at UTM and Dyersburg. He can't escape his past. He is remembered.

I wanted to KNOW for myself. When I see a stonewall I figure out a way around it. In this case, it was easy. It is amazing what people will tell you, show you, and do for you if you just ask. There is information available to anyone seeking it. I wouldn't waste time with those surrounding the pastor, you will get the politically correct answer every time. I contacted Chuck Taylor in September and I am still waiting on a response. His silence left me no choice but to search for the answers myself.

Once you look into this it will not take you long to determine either the search committee knew or should have known the pastor should not have been called. If they had researched his activities and reputation at his previous churches, this would have been abundantly clear. They did our church a tremendous disservice and now the same group realize their error, yet they are going to the mat primarily to protect their own reputations. I really believe it is as simple as that. If they were not acting out of self-interest, do you think the pastor would have been allowed to drag this out this long? He has a small group who use their influence and position to protect him. They insulate him from questioning. Ask yourself why they have behaved that way. Why wouldn't they want everything out on the table to clear the pastor's name. After all, if they had laid it all out for Mark Sharpe when he asked, this would not have been made public. For some reason, they did not lay it out for him (even though he is a deacon). Why not?

The pastor's conduct is understandable. After all, what can he say about: arrogance, accepting kickbacks for holy land trips (he has done this for years, he can't hide it), allowing the church to pay for a country club membership with tithes, booting beloved staff, shamelessly promoting his book through a Bible study, employing the relatives of two of the search committee members (what chutzpah that takes), calling Mark Sharpe "Hezbollah" in front of witnesses, standing in the pulpit in Union City and laughing about not allowing others to speak, kicking a deacon out for having the temerity to question his actions, refusing to call a business meeting, marketing the church like it is a cheap six-pack of beer in ads designed to look like strip joint ads (in a magazine that prints strip joint ads), mistreating Doctor Rogers before he died (get the facts on this, it will infuriate you), bullying people, lying about why he went to Mark Sharpe's house the night of the fence incident (if he wanted to reconcile he would have done it long ago, clearly that was not his purpose), sending emissaries to quiet down a saint of God who says "Amen" too loudly (I believe he really did tell Mark D. he had that dream. If not, Mark D. is an inveterate liar. Clearly one of them is.), agreeing to sell the church organ, etc. That is hardly an exhaustive list. I do not need to delve into credit cards or purpose-driven life to know we have a problem. Notice, that all happened at Bellevue. I took pity on him and withheld his actions at Gardendale and Jackson.

Karen, don't let them bully you. What you said was TRUE. No one needs to review credit card statements to verify what you said. Sister Pam may be able to confirm much of this based on her discussions with one good committee member.




REPLY: BBC Forum, i would love you know how an anger filled post like this one and others are acceptable? have you forgot the "mission statement"?? you have said things to some on the "other side" for no reason, but let HORRIBLE posts like this one slide. how convenient

Anonymous said...

the search committee did a GREAT job by the way!

New BBC Open Forum said...

karen wrote:

"I'm not a Bible scholar, but doesn't Matthew 18, in essence, say go to your brother once, then twice then be done? Isn't that a "time line"? Mark Sharpe did all that. Just wondering.

This blog came out of the frustration of the failure of Matthew 18 - not before it was attempted and rebuffed by BBC leadership."


hisservant replied:

REPLY: frustration? so that is your excuse for the slander, rumors and lies that are on the blog?? frustration??

"Slander, rumors and lies" is your opinion. And no, it wasn't a result of frustration. It was plain, old failure. Failure of the first three steps of Matthew 18 to work. I think Karen made it plain that Matthew 18 has been followed and didn't work because (1) Steve Gaines wasn't receptive to Mark Sharpe when he went alone, (2) or when he tried to go before the deacon body. I believe there may have been other one-on-one meetings that didn't get any farther than the first, and (3) Mark Sharpe was denied the opportunity to address the deacon body. So Step 4 is, according to Matthew 18, to bring the matter to the church. That would be either in a business meeting or on campus meeting of the membership. The opportunities for both have been denied by the leadership.

May I then ask you what Step #5 should be? Previous bloggers thought in this day and age and considering the sheer enormity of BBC that the internet was the most expeditious way of getting the truth out, but since you seem to have all the answers, please enlighten us. I'm quite serious when I say I'd really like to know.

Of course, I suppose I already know what you're going to say Step #5 isn't, so I'll save you the time. You can come here and "demand" this blog be shut down all you want, but it will be shut down when the Lord tells me to shut it down, not when Pastor David or "hisservant" or anyone else says to. I say that to save you the time of typing it nearly every time you post a comment and in the hopes of not wasting as much space as has been wasted today.

NBBCOF

Anonymous said...

slander is a fact, has nothing to do with opinions. regardless if certain things on here are true or false. slander is all over this blog and cannot be defended.

the Lord is in know way being glorified through this blog.

then why have it? we should try to glorify Christ in all we do.

this blog is ALL about flesh and self and your "rights".

as Christians, we have no rights. we are to be dead to our flesh/self. our rights, emotions, etc etc are not ours if we are a child of God.

Anonymous said...

see above

NBBCOF Forum, i would love you know how an anger filled post like this one and others are acceptable? have you forgot the "mission statement"?? you have said things to some on the "other side" for no reason, but let HORRIBLE posts like this one slide. how convenient

Custos said...

Telos, thanks for the kind words. Good to be back, though I wish circumstances were different.

David and Co.,

I'm afraid you've dropped in here not having the months of background info that many of us have in this conflict. I envy you that, but at the same time it makes much of what you're saying rather old hat.

I don't want to give you a reading assignment, but I would ask that you go to the Sharpe interviews at
bellevuetruth.blogspot.com

Those at least would bring you up to speed and would do away with this silliness about Sharpe and others not having gone to those involved. There is no way on this earth that one can contend Sharpe hasn't gone as far done the line of Matthew 18 as possible--at least there's no way to do that and maintain any intellectual integrity. David, this has been tried ad nauseum. Your encouragement in that direction is not unwelcome, it's simply untimely and therefore frustrating because we've tried and tried to no avail.

Further, the need to deal with sin in our midst trumps a need for unity. A lot of us have a "can't we all just get along" mentality. That mentality, friends, is deadly. On central issues we need unity. On peripheral issues diversity is ok. Sin is not a peripheral issue.

Finally, this silliness about those of us wanting truth disregarding Matthew 18 bothers me. Did you happen to read the link I sent you? It is very difficult to contend that what's happening here (as far as a meeting place to address issues) does not comport with Matthew 18. Lots of people like saying that it doesn't, but I've yet to see one argument that successfully makes that point or successfully negates what's found at that link.

Best,
Josh

Anonymous said...

I think it is a crying shame the way some of you hide behind a call for reconciliation but don`t seem to see that they are causing more damage to the body of Bellevue by hurling harsh words to people to are broken.

Some of you have said that you went out and found the facts and then came back here and stateed the facts. I believe this is the right thing to do.

What I don`t understand is why there are some who are contributing to these discussions in a way to silence those who have sought the facts, but give no evidence of going out to do their own fact finding.

This is where I have a big problem.

Those of you who are calling anyone slanderers or saying that others are spreading rumors, need to get off this disscussion board long enough to get the facts for yourself and then come back informed with the truth. Just talking for the sake of talking yields nothing good.

Those of you who do not like hearing the facts, need to stop telling others not to share the facts they have.

True reconcilation of the body would require that all the facts be placed in the light, even if it bothers the flesh.

The body of Christ is bigger than Bellevue and the problems at Bellevue have now touched a world of believers who care and who also want answers, not just someone`s opinion.

I am sure many of the churches who have hosted Pastor Gaines are concerned over these matters.

Derrick Calcote who is a deacon of the church is a confusing poster to me because he gives the appearance of representing the church at times and at other times seems to have given out information that was later found to be wrong.

I would strongly suggest that no one, especially a deacon give out anymore answers that are not 100% accurate.

I would also like to suggest that D.C. stop sending messages that say " I am not posting here anymore" and then keep coming back to write messages. The same goes for some of the others here who say this from time to time. You don`t have to announce that you are leaving in order to make things dramatic. Just leave.

I have read messages by MKW that are so argumentive that it makes me sick. I keep wondering why they can not see the damage they are doing to the body of Bellevue and to the body of belivers at large who read their words.

This lady Karen seems to have done more than most of you by going fact finding while many of you sit here and call her names and write about things you seem not to have the facts about.

wondedandbleeding`s messages show that they also went out and looked for the truth and found it which is more than most of you are doing.

Please stop telling those who have done their homework to stop sharing the facts they have.

Truth Hunter is definintly angry but I have give kudos to them for going more than most of you. They said they investigated and collected facts.

For those who are just sitting behind a computer today and entering into these discussion, would you please get off the computer long enough to do your own fact finding so you can be educated in your dialog.

HisServant is causing more divison with their messages of constant debate.

I don`t think the truth is debatable. It just is.

David, who is a pastor should back off from Matthew 18 comments. This is getting pretty old and shows that he has not invested the time to read all of the blog. If he had, he could stop trying to direct others to do what has already been done without success.

Those of you who keep inflicting more pain on the wounded body, need to quiet down. I am sure you must not realize that your words sting others in a damaging way.

Those of you who say the whole world is watching need to understand they are also watching you and the way you seem to want to sweep facts under the carpet every day and quiet the ones who have the facts.

The world is waiting for the facts and if you can not share the facts, I would suggest that you reconsider what you are doing here.

I am appreciative of anyone who wants to hang on and display the truth, like Tim, Nass and others.

One last thing, for bloggers who think other bloggers are wrong for blogging church business. When you have a deacon from Bellvue blogging church business, you lose the debate on the issue.


Respectfully I submit to you my thoughts.

Churchmouse said...

His servant said:"Please, let the committee do its job. If the committee fails, invoke Matt. 18 on them and follow the Scripture. If there are truly as many of you as you claim, THEN step out of your anonymity and take this before the church (not just your accusations, but your identities, as well) -- surely you have nothing to fear if there are thousands of you and if the truth is on your side!"

Wow! Mr. hisservant, is this your first day here? Your solution ignores the fact that a the path to Matthew 18 is blocked by the BBC leadership, who are the same people who make up "The Committee". The Committee's job is to prevent Matthew 18. Your circular reasoning is making me dizzy.

Circular reasoning is a formal logical fallacy in which the proposition to be proved is assumed implicitly or explicitly in one of the premises. --Wikipedia

See also "Double Bind".

Anonymous said...

A WORD to the WISE

Don`t allow what other`s write here to get you off the target of truth.

If you will notice:

Some post only to debate. Avoid them.

Some post to change the subject. Avoid them.

Some post to argue. Avoid them.

Some post to get others not to. Avoid them.

Some post to help scatter the flock even more. Avoid them.

Some post to beat the wounded sheep. Avoid them.

Some post to get posts so they can evaluate the next polical move. Avoid them,

Stay on target with the truth!!!

Repectfully,

Your servantg

Anonymous said...

David, please help me understand something; a brother goes to a brother and is rebuffed. The brother goes with several brothers and they are denied an audience.

The brother goes to the church using modern day communication and you attack the forum giving little support to those who have a complaint and who have been turned away.

Sincerely, in your eyes, what is an acceptable form of communication among church members?

Phones? Cell Phones? A letter writting campaign? Morse Code?

Also, what do you think is the Matthew 18 "path forward"? In other words, what does God insturct His people to do when they are stonewalled by the church leadership?

I keep reading that the response from the church only began once the people started "communicating"
amongst themselves.

I understand the concerns regarding gossip, libel etc., and I agree. Unfortunately that happens in all medium - even in Sunday School Classes. But you don't sink the boat because a few people riding on it don't know how to act.

Humbly,

BFG

New BBC Open Forum said...

hisservant wrote (twice):

"NBBCOF Forum, i would love you know how an anger filled post like this one and others are acceptable? have you forgot the "mission statement"?? you have said things to some on the "other side" for no reason, but let HORRIBLE posts like this one slide. how convenient"

Thank you for your kind offer to help moderate the forum, but it wasn't requested nor is it needed. I've let all your comments stand, too, so you shouldn't worry about anyone else's.

And just for the record, "slander" is verbal; "libel" is the written form of the same. Since this forum is all in written form, no one here is slandering anyone. Just because you disagree with someone doesn't make his comments libelous either.

"the Lord is in know way being glorified through this blog.

then why have it? we should try to glorify Christ in all we do.

this blog is ALL about flesh and self and your 'rights'."


You know, it's peculiar to me that the very same people who come here and tell everyone how "evil" and "putrid" this forum is and that those participating in it are sinning and tearing down the church, continue to come here and roll around in the mud themselves! There's "know" way I would continue to be involved in something I'd just proclaimed was so unglorifying to the Lord. That seems a bit hypocritical to me.

"Beyereconciled" had some wise words for you this morning:

"Those of you who are calling anyone slanderers or saying that others are spreading rumors, need to get off this disscussion board long enough to get the facts for yourself and then come back informed with the truth. Just talking for the sake of talking yields nothing good."

So, are you really a deacon? I thought someone asked you about that, but I didn't see where you denied it.

NBBCOF

choice_is_yours said...

Luke's Good News for Bellevue for Wed. Nov. 15, 2006

Heavenly Father,
Thank you for a new day and "another" second chance to serve you in this world. Strengthen me to do a better job for you today than yesterday. Be with my beloved brothers and sister's of Bellevue as we grope in the dark towards reconciliation and revival to your glory. Give us courage and moral fiber and character to help us take off our own blind folds and look deeply, fearlessly into the mirror at what we have become and see if it measures up to scripture. Let none of us accuse until we first confess. None of us are innocent.

In Jesus's Healing name,
AMEN.




Luke 3:1-20 (King James Version)

1Now in the fifteenth year of the reign of Tiberius Caesar, Pontius Pilate being governor of Judaea, and Herod being tetrarch of Galilee, and his brother Philip tetrarch of Ituraea and of the region of Trachonitis, and Lysanias the tetrarch of Abilene,

2Annas and Caiaphas being the high priests, the word of God came unto John the son of Zacharias in the wilderness.

3And he came into all the country about Jordan, preaching the baptism of repentance for the remission of sins;

4As it is written in the book of the words of Esaias the prophet, saying, The voice of one crying in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the Lord, make his paths straight.

5Every valley shall be filled, and every mountain and hill shall be brought low; and the crooked shall be made straight, and the rough ways shall be made smooth;

6And all flesh shall see the salvation of God.

7Then said he to the multitude that came forth to be baptized of him, O generation of vipers, who hath warned you to flee from the wrath to come?

8Bring forth therefore fruits worthy of repentance, and begin not to say within yourselves, We have Abraham to our father: for I say unto you, That God is able of these stones to raise up children unto Abraham.

9And now also the axe is laid unto the root of the trees: every tree therefore which bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.

10And the people asked him, saying, What shall we do then?

11He answereth and saith unto them, He that hath two coats, let him impart to him that hath none; and he that hath meat, let him do likewise.

12Then came also publicans to be baptized, and said unto him, Master, what shall we do?

13And he said unto them, Exact no more than that which is appointed you.

14And the soldiers likewise demanded of him, saying, And what shall we do? And he said unto them, Do violence to no man, neither accuse any falsely; and be content with your wages.

15And as the people were in expectation, and all men mused in their hearts of John, whether he were the Christ, or not;

16John answered, saying unto them all, I indeed baptize you with water; but one mightier than I cometh, the latchet of whose shoes I am not worthy to unloose: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost and with fire:

17Whose fan is in his hand, and he will throughly purge his floor, and will gather the wheat into his garner; but the chaff he will burn with fire unquenchable.

18And many other things in his exhortation preached he unto the people.

19But Herod the tetrarch, being reproved by him for Herodias his brother Philip's wife, and for all the evils which Herod had done,

20Added yet this above all, that he shut up John in prison.

New BBC Open Forum said...

hisservant,

I neglected to thank you for reposting "truth hunter's" comment in its entirety. It was well worth repeating!

NBBCOF

New BBC Open Forum said...

beyereconciled wrote:

"Respectfully I submit to you my thoughts."

And respectfully I submit to you this.

NASS

Karen said...

NASS, beyereconciled, mom4, truth hunter and everyone else who has defended me:

Thank you so much for your support and love. I know I speak the truth and I won't be quiet.

Hisservant,

Why are you so willing to go to the mat for a man that's been involved with BBC for just over a year. Yes, Steve Gaines is the pastor, but what if he's wrong???? Put your mind around that for one minute - what if 1 of these - you call them allegations, libel and slander; I know their FACTS - just ONE is an undisputed fact. How many "oopsies" does Dr. Gaines get before some kind of contrition, repentance, humbleness comes from the pulpit?

I want him at BBC - I just want to know beyond a shadow of a doubt that we have a pastor that the same thing to your face that he says behind your back.

I wouldn't post anything here about you or your comments that I am ashamed of to repeat in public.

The 30% figure that Ed Thompson posted here is really scary - how can the leadership at BBC discount that many people?

I repeat my earlier statement: what if 1 of these - you call them allegations, libel and slander; I know they are FACTS. How many mistakes and "do-overs" and "handled badlys" does it take to convince you that Steve Gaines has harmed, hurt, wounded, tresspassed and abused his flock and he needs to fix that himself. Not hide behind this wall his built for himself.

Josh Manning, welcome back sweetie! I miss seeing you and your family in church :( Get my email address from NASS if you want to.

Karen

headoutofthesand said...

"his"servant posted:

"truth" hunter posted:
...

REPLY: BBC Forum, i would love you know how an anger filled post like this one and others are acceptable? have you forgot the "mission statement"?? you have said things to some on the "other side" for no reason, but let HORRIBLE posts like this one slide. how convenient


I believe it is pretty clear who has anger in their posts, hisservant. But I do have a question for you, David, MKW, and anyone else who continues to thrown Matthew 18 in everyone's face.

Since you all have clearly been offended yourselves by several brothers on this blog, have any of you tried to execute Matthew 18 with them? Have you asked for their email addresses or phone numbers from them so that you can "tell him his fault between you and him alone"? If not, I'm curious as to why? Could it be that your own self-righteousness and pride that allows you to message the whole world about their faults, doesn't allow you to humbly ask to address them individually? Does the ends of your behavior justify the means because you feel you are "right" and they are wrong? Or do two wrongs make a right in your world?

Karen said...

Let me fix this paragraph - my brain and fingers work at different speeds:

I want him at BBC - I just want to know beyond a shadow of a doubt that we have a pastor that will say he same thing to your face that he says behind your back.

Sorry if I confused anybody! :)

Karen said...

Derrick Calcotte,

Just to make sure: Are you and I reconcilled? I feel we are, but if you don't, PLEASE let me know. You have my email.

Have a great day,

Karen

Anonymous said...

MKW said:

continuing to post "abuse-abuse-abuse-abuse-abuse-abuse" is irresponsible, at best,

MKW- Have you talked to Linda Whitmire? I think the word abuse would be a kinder description considering her own account.

She uses phrases such as:

"THEY TRIED TO DESTROY MY HUSBAND AND I HAD TO WATCH MY HUSBAND DETERIOATE BEFORE MY EYES"

You must have no idea of what really happened,


MKW said:

and severely damaging to the credibility of those who are accusing our Pastor,

MKW - Again you must be misinformed if you think that anything so far revealed is damaging to anyone`s credibility except those who tried to "destroy" this man.

I think you need to get busy finding out what you must not know.

MKW said:

let alone a complete sabotage of any attempt at reconciliation between the Whitmires and Dr. Gaines.

MKW-You have got to be kidding.
IF you think that bringing the truth to light for all to see is hindering reconsilation, you must not understand the depth and width of this situation.

There are old messages here that discuss this situation.

There are people here asking for the truth and others referring those who ask back to earlier messages on this blog.

Your judgment call of this person could easily be applied to any person who writes anything truthful on this blog.

Maybe that is how you see it and you just used this one occassion to judge this one person but I think you are really out of place to have done this.

MKW said:

If you truly want to see reconciliation, then please keep silent about this from this point further. You have made your point.

This is so sad. You questioning the sincerity of this lady`s desire for reconciliation.

All through this forum there are mean spirited messages- accusations- half truth-
and some stating actual lies and you ask someone telling the truth to be silent and try to heap guilt on them.

WOW!

Do you really want reconciliation within the body of Bellevue???

Don`t you realize that this is a blog. Don`t you know that anyone can go back and read the blog from days gone by?

Maybe you are satisfied that a point has been made by someone but you can not speak for me. Repeated blogging is customary and welcomed because there is a new group of people who come in and ask questions before they go back and read the old messages. Have you ever been on a blog before?

You have unfairly judged.

I think you owe this lady and those who value the truth an apology,

New BBC Open Forum said...

Thank you, headoutofthesand, for repeating this because I failed to notice something:

hisservant wrote:

"BBC Forum, i would love you know how an anger filled post like this one and others are acceptable? have you forgot the "mission statement"?? you have said things to some on the "other side" for no reason, but let HORRIBLE posts like this one slide. how convenient"

Please understand I don't "say things" to anyone "for no reason." Just thought I'd correct that lib... uh, misstatement on your part.

Thank you,

NBBCOF

Anonymous said...

http://www.bellevue.org/clientImages/1360/start.htm

--Mike

ezekiel said...

Can anyone argue that the sheep are not scattered? Can anyone read below and argue who God holds responsible?

EZEKIEL
34:1 And the word of the LORD came unto me, saying,

34:2 Son of man, prophesy against the shepherds of Israel, prophesy, and say unto them, Thus saith the Lord GOD unto the shepherds; Woe [be] to the shepherds of Israel that do feed themselves! should not the shepherds feed the flocks?

34:3 Ye eat the fat, and ye clothe you with the wool, ye kill them that are fed: [but] ye feed not the flock.

34:4 The diseased have ye not strengthened, neither have ye healed that which was sick, neither have ye bound up [that which was] broken, neither have ye brought again that which was driven away, neither have ye sought that which was lost; but with force and with cruelty have ye ruled them.

34:5 And they were scattered, because [there is] no shepherd: and they became meat to all the beasts of the field, when they were scattered.

New BBC Open Forum said...

Thank you, Mike. That's the best comment ever!

And worth making clickable.

NBBCOF

Custos said...

Why Karen, thank you. I'll contact NASS (which has to be the best blogger name ever) to get your info.

Cheers,
Josh

Custos said...

Well said, Headoutofthesand.

I've asked many a deacon accusing me of wrong doing to do just that and not one of them has been willing to follow through with Matthew 18 as you suggest. I don't get this! These are folks are supposed to be venerable leaders here and they completely ignore biblical injunctions on a regular basis.

I'm convinced that while this does hurt, God is doing some housecleaning. I for one had no idea the extent to which men we've trusted with leadership positions would compromise themselves to avoid pointing to sin and then handling it biblically.

Your point posses an incredibly salient question: "How many members of the leadership are unwilling to follow biblical injunctions even when those same leaders would contend that such injunctions benefit them and their side of the issues?"

Folks, the leadership is compromising left and right simply to avoid dealing with the issue of sin. They won't confront things a large number of the congregation considers sin. And what's more striking is that they won't confront issues that they themselves paint as sin. What's wrong with this picture?

Regards,
Josh

lol. said...

It's obvious to me that most of the people that post here have a similar viewpoint. But there is another perspective out there, one that I believe many thousands that attend and worship at Bellevue hold.

I support Bro Steve, not because I think he is perfect or sinless, we dont have a sinless Pastor - never have and never will. I support him because I believe he was called by God to lead our church and has made the changes he feels God has called him to make. Doesnt mean I have to agree with or even like every change that is made, but Im not going to question what God is laying on our Pastor's heart when it comes to the changes he is making.

I dont know Bro Steve or Mark Sharp personally. I do know someone who knows them both fairly well, and he considers them both to be good, Godly men. So I give them both the benefit of the doubt, and try to look at things from each of their perspectives. I believe MS's perspective has been spelled out here to great detail, so let me just post how I see things from Bro Steve's perspective on some of the issues brought up. (And I am in no way speaking for Bro Steve or the leadership of BBC, just my opinion on how things must look from that side.)

1. The Wed night deal - Ive talked about this one once before, but it has continued to be brought up. Why is it hard to believe that the main reason Bro Steve doesnt preach on Wed night is because he wants to be able to use Wed night to conduct meetings, and thus free up other nights for both himself and other leaders to spend time with their family. Traveling once or twice a month would not keep him from preaching every Wed night. He could have preached 75% of Wed nights and still made other speaking engagements. In my opinion, he was truthful in stating that the reason he doesn’t preach at all on Wed nights was to free up other nights to spend with family. I dont think it was necessary for him to lay out his entire itinerary for the next 4-6 months or be accused of telling half-truths.

2. The praying church comment - I didnt take offense to this at all, and fail to see how this was an attack on Dr Rogers. Dr Rogers was, imo, the best preacher Ive ever heard. And I dont believe there is anyone who respected or looked up to Dr Rogers more than Bro Steve - that was clear when I saw Bro Steve speak a while back, I believe at Dr Rogers retirement.

But are we to believe that the membership of Bellevue(of which Im a part) has no room for improvement in the area of prayer? If your prayer life is perfect, then he wasnt talking to you I guess, but I would imagine most people could always use a refresher course from God's called man on prayer. If God is telling our new Pastor that he wants his focus for the first part of his tenure to be on the prayer life of our church, then I am all for hearing what God has to say about it through him. I think we would seem a bit self-rightous to think we as a body dont need help in this area.

And I think the prayer chapel is a great idea. What a great thing it would be to have at least one member there 24-7 praying for the needs of our community and church. Wow...

3. The Gardendale "tick you off" comments - Maybe it's just me, but I again wasnt offended by these. No two Pastor's will do everything the same way. To think that anyone would come in and say, "yep, it's just the way I want it, Im not going to change anything", is a little naive IMO. Doesnt mean that he was saying Bellevue was bad, it just wasnt run the way he does things.

And also I think it's important to look at the comments in the context. Here was a man that didnt want to leave, speaking to a church that didnt want him to go. He had been there a long time. But he felt God was calling him to leave and he was just putting out every test to make sure it was what God wanted him to do. It was a pretty big decision.

4. Financial issues - I have seen no proof that leads me to believe Bro Steve is doing anything wrong in this area. If he was stealing from the church in any way, then he should leave. But that hasnt been shown - and apparently, according to the deacons that post here, it has been thoroughly disproved.

That doesnt mean I agree with how every penny is spent. But just because you dont agree with how the money is spent, doesnt mean the Pastor and staff are sinning. I believe we can have a discussion/debate on how money should be spent, without accusing(without proof) the leadership of stealing and then lying to cover it up. And at the end of the day, we still may not agree with how the money is spent, but unless it is spent in a truly ungodly way, then I feel no further steps need be taken.

As far as accountability, Im not 100% sure what the current process is, so Im probably not qualified to comment. I will say I am for accountability and multiple layers of checks - including an outside firm. But I dont think every salary and every purchase needs be put before the congregation. I especially think salary levels should be confidential. We see the overall budget, and at some point we have to have some trust in our leadership and the checks that are in place. Ultimately, those that misuse God's money will answer to Him.

5. Staff changes - It's not a shock to me that there has been a turnover in staff. Im not sure why most have left. Many may not agree with some of the changes and felt called to move. Their leaving doesnt make them less Godly, and doesnt make Bro Stever less Godly. Just means that one or the other felt a change needed to be made.

If some of them were treated badly, and it appears they believe they were, then our leaders who mistreated them should go to them and be reconciled. And those who were mistreated should go directly to the leadership themselves and try to be reconciled. Personally, I dont feel that what happened between two people is any of my business. If Bro Steve treated me wrong(which he hasnt) I would go to him and lay out my case, and I would do it in the right way with the right attitude. I would expect him to act in a God led way as well, but wouldnt expect him to apologize to me in front of the congregation.

6. The messages he has preached being self-serving - I dont think that is fair at all. He is preaching what God is telling him to preach. He is using Scripture to guide his sermons, and doing it in a way to serve God and His church. Of course many of the sermons could have something to do with the current struggles at our church. Would we expect it to be different? A preacher will preach on what God is putting on his heart, and it would be hard to expect Bro Steve to not have spent much time talking to God about these issues over the past few months. Bro Steve obviously feels like what he is doing at our church is right, and he feels like it is what God wants him to do. Until God tells him something different, I wouldnt expect that to change.


I dont expect to change many minds, nor want to argue/debate these opinions - that wasnt the purpose of this post. I just wanted to state my opinions, coming from a different perspective than what I see from most here. Whether or not this blog is the right way to handle these issues, I will let God judge that. All I will do is to continue to pray for our church and hope those who feel wronged will be reconciled.

It is seems to me that unless there is some major stone unturned, a majority of the deacons and a majority of the congregation have continued and want to continue to serve and worship Christ under Bro Steve’s leadership. So I don’t see him leaving anytime soon. Even if it’s as much as 25-30%(unproven, but it could be) of the people who have a problem, that still leads a large majority who don’t. If he isn’t leaving, those who see no other course but the resignation of Bro Steve, I don’t see how you can be reconciled, but you will have to talk to God about that. Hopefully, Bro Steve has learned from any mistakes he has made, and those who have wronged him have also learned from their mistakes.

Sorry for such a long post, but there are a lot of issues that have been discussed in the deacon loyalty threads.

BR said...

Is "his servant" SG or is he SG's servant??

1john3 said...

YOU MIGHT NEED TO MOVE THIS TO "NOV." 'S LINK. THANKS.

BR said...

1john3 said:

"YOU MIGHT NEED TO MOVE THIS TO "NOV." 'S LINK. THANKS."

What is that, please?

Anonymous said...

karen
Hisservant,

Why are you so willing to go to the mat for a man that's been involved with BBC for just over a year. Yes, Steve Gaines is the pastor, but what if he's wrong???? Put your mind around that for one minute - what if 1 of these - you call them allegations, libel and slander; I know their FACTS - just ONE is an undisputed fact. How many "oopsies" does Dr. Gaines get before some kind of contrition, repentance, humbleness comes from the pulpit?


REPLY: first because I know the man. second, I have heard the VERY simple answers to all the "issues". very simple. third, as I have said over and over, there is NO excuse for the slander on here or elsewhere. even if he was guilty of all, that would still not make this blog right. how do you justify slander? what does the Bible say about?

I want him at BBC - I just want to know beyond a shadow of a doubt that we have a pastor that the same thing to your face that he says behind your back.


REPLY: why? it is very hard for me to believe that many on here want Brother Steve at Bellevue. your actions show different.

I wouldn't post anything here about you or your comments that I am ashamed of to repeat in public.


REPLY: me either


The 30% figure that Ed Thompson posted here is really scary - how can the leadership at BBC discount that many people?

REPLY: I do not agree with 30%, but if it is true, it does not change my mind in the least. this blog, the juicy gossip groups etc all over the place etc have caused this fire to rage. people are feeding off each other and off the slander. that is a fact and it is sad. the rumors and the "facts" are ever changing.

I repeat my earlier statement: what if 1 of these - you call them allegations, libel and slander; I know they are FACTS. How many mistakes and "do-overs" and "handled badlys" does it take to convince you that Steve Gaines has harmed, hurt, wounded, tresspassed and abused his flock and he needs to fix that himself. Not hide behind this wall his built for himself.


REPLY: i will say again, that all of us will be held accountable for the things we do on this earth. Brother steve is God's annointed and he and his family are being dragged in the mud in a public forum by you and many others. again, there is no excuse for your slander. slander is no "ok" even if certain things are true. some are personally responsible for ruining Brother Steve and others reputation. Dr. Rogers knew Brother Steve was God's man and I am even more convinced of that more than ever. not many men could take what Brother Steve is having to go through. he is doing a GREAT job. he is not backing down to those that want him to change his sermons because of the junk going on. he is strong on the Lord and I love that about him. some need to take those sermons and apply it to their lives instead of bashing him preaching them.

LibertyInChrist said...

TENNESSEE BAPTIST CONVENTION RESPONSE TO PLIGHT OF BELLEVUE BAPTIST

From: Bill Northcott
To: RockSalt
Sent: Wednesday, November 15, 2006 8:59 AM
Subject: RE: Commentary on Pastor Loyalty covenant at Bellevue Baptist Church

"Please explain how I got on your email list and why you have sent this information to me. Thanks."

"The Cooperative Program enables me to partner with you in making Christ known by serving churches."

Bill Northcott, DMin.
Church-Minister Relations
Post Office Box 728
Brentwood, TN 37024-0728
Local: 615.371.2099
Toll Free: 800.558.2090, ext. 2099
Cell: 615.406.3851
FAX: 615.301.0619
Email: wnorthcott@tnbaptist.orgDear

RESPONSE:

Bill Northcott,

Thank you for your response regarding my two emails to you about what is going on at Bellevue Baptist Church. I am happy to answer your questions of why I emailed you and why I sent you Bellevue Baptist Church Pastor Loyalty Covenant, my commentary on it, and Becky & Joe Benson's open letter of appeal to the deacons and members of Bellevue Baptist Church (http://www.savingbellevue.com/bensonletter2.htm) and direct this to you and all of your staff who are listed on your website identifying themselves with the title or function: “Church Health”. Your name, title, and email address (and more than a dozen more who are listed in the staff on your website of the Tennessee Baptist Convention.) Source: http://www.tnbaptist.org/staffsearch.asp. I am surprised that you would not know your name is listed. I am even more astonished that you would not expect someone to write you on this very subject. This crisis is about Church-Minister Relations...isn't that your function? Wouldn't it be reasonable for an appeal or distress call be directed to your office which is entitled: “Church-Minister Relations”? Since you are presently conducting your convention at Bellevue Baptist Church near Memphis, this could not be more directly related as your organization is handing out healthy church awards while Bellevue Baptist is in a state of poor health because of Steve Gaines and at least three other leaders there. Didn't Jesus Christ respond to those in need of a physician? Or did he respond by asking the halt, the lame, and the blind: "how did you get my email address?" Why does it matter how I got your email address? Are you saying your organization has nothing to do with this? Has no interest in it? I am alerting you with SOS distress calls coming from Bellevue Baptist....that doesn't concern you? So what is the Tennessee Baptist Convention going to do about it? Instead of asking me how I am on your mailing list, you should be thanking me for alerting you to this very crisis so that you can bring the Balm of Gilead to the host of wounded saints at Bellevue Baptist Church and confront those who are bludgeoning them! So concerned for “Church Health” are those who are listed on Tennessee Baptist Convention under the function and title of “Church Health”, that none of them responded to me, but more importantly, Becky & Joe Benson have heard from none of you...all while you conduct your convention in the heart of Bellevue Baptist Church giving out church health awards, oblivious to these wounded saints and those caught in the thicket there!

Sincerely in Christ,

James Sundquist
Director
Rock Salt Publishing
http://www.abrahamic-faith.com/False-Teachers.html

Anonymous said...

churchmouse: would you like to change your post and say you are sorry??!! I DID NOT post what you said I did. just another way rumors get started. yes, a simple mistake, but many simple mistakes have helped get us where were are.

please change your post

choice_is_yours said...

Brother Steve,

We love you. We know you love us.

Let's trust eachother to forgive eachother.

You are new here and you don't realize that we are able to forgive you.

You are new to us and we need to know if you will forgive us.

Peace,
Choice

choice_is_yours said...

Brother Steve,

It's okay to blog anonymously. Many of us have done it.

Peace,
Choice

Anonymous said...

libertyinchrist: unreal! part of your email is misleading at best. where do you get this Covenant stuff? where? are you going to answer this to this blog and then send another email with the correct info? it is far far far far from a Covenant. in most part all it is only reaffirming what the Deacons, ALL the Deacons, have already done. you and others are misleading people on this and shedding a false light on it. it is very basic. it is not a Covenant and not a "oath" as many have said.

any Deacon that had an issue with it had the chance to SPEAK UP and those same Deacons need to go back and review what they promised when they signed on the be Deacons.

there is NOTHING to this and we need to stop misleading people on it.

any many wonder why some of the "facts" on this blog and elsewhere are simply not true.

choice_is_yours said...

Brother Steve,

You have been under a lot of pressure.

So have we.

Let's all turn to Jesus and stop pointing fingers at each other.

Let the world watch us turn our fingers towards the cross as we fall on our knees and shed tears over his shed blood.

Peace,
Choice.

P.S. Mike Bratton, thank you for that witnessing link that NASS activated. The background music is playing while I type.

choice_is_yours said...

Heavenly Father,

Be with us right now...

In Jesus's name,
AMEN

headoutofthesand said...

hisservant,

Your posts are becoming--dare I say--somewhat maniacal sounding. For someone who is clearly a 100% supporter of Pastor Gaines and all that he does, I am surprised you post anonymously. I would think you would be proud to stand up for a man you think has done nothing wrong.

Again, why are you not executing Matthew 18 on the people on this blog who are offending you? You certainly are able to contact libertyinchrist directly as he has provided his contact information.


Choice,

AMEN!

choice_is_yours said...

Brother Steve,

You are scared, so are we.


This isn't right.

We are all in sin. We should only fear God.

The whole world is looking at all of us and seeing flesh instead of HIS BODY.

We are scared of ourselves, scared of each other, scared to lose our reputations, our families, our friends, scared of "bears" (I still wish someone would apologize over that bear story).


We who fear any but God are in sin.

We must fear only God.

Good News!

God loves you, He loves us!

We all know John 3:16 is true!

choice_is_yours said...

Brother Steve,

We know this is not about you.

We have let Bible inerracny become Papal infalibility.

You did not create this problem. It is wide spread. Not just in the SBC.

Not just baptists.



But now it is decision time for BBC.

Are we going to accept papal infalaibility?


Or do we need to go back to scripture and see if we missed something.

We you lead us at this place at this time?


We will follow. Just make sure Christ is in front of you in plain sight for us "sheeple."

Anonymous said...

Woe to the idol shepherd that leaveth the flock! the sword shall be upon his arm, and upon his right eye: his arm shall be clean dried up, and his right eye shall be utterly darkened. (KJV)Zechariah 11:17

Annointed Shepherds can become idol shepherds.

Any person who really loves Steve would bring him to the truth. Many here has done that, have you?

Yes men are not what it needed when it comes to friend.

I see no slander in telling the truth and I see no debate in truth.

YOu are wrong to come here debating what has already been established as truth. Do your homework and get smart about the words you write. As a matter of fact, everything you call the truth a lie, you are going against God himself, so be very careful about what you think you know.

No one here that I see is willing to believe what has no been proved.

Take your friend to the mirror and help him see his sin and while you are there take a look at what you are doing to make matters worse for Steve and the church by calling truth a lie and people who tell the truth slanderers. It just won`t fly here because there are too many things we now KNOW to be the TRUTH not rumor or opinion.

Even Steve`s old school mates are contacting people to tell them what he is really like so this is a deep dark well that looks as though it has no bottom.

The toom is getting full of people harmed by the pastor and his friends, please don`t be one of them.

Help him out today and bring his to the mirror.

If he loves the sheep, ask him to step down until all these things get resolved.

If you don`t like to heat the truth here maybe you would perfet to read it in the news?

You have no idea how volitle these issues have become and the more the pastor and his yes men, procrastinate, the worse it gets.

You are not doing anyone a good service by the things you write and you are not being a peacemaker.

I think everyone who has spent their time and energy going to Steve and staff are exercising love for God, love for the church, love for those at the top.

If you want to help, go get Steve Gaines and ask him to give us all a date, time, and location, where we can all meet together and talk things over, one on one.

Respectfully submitted for your consideration

choice_is_yours said...

(offline)

Anonymous said...

BEYERECONCILED posted: YOu are wrong to come here debating what has already been established as truth. Do your homework and get smart about the words you write. As a matter of fact, everything you call the truth a lie, you are going against God himself, so be very careful about what you think you know.


REPLY: unreal. very few things on this blog are facts. very few. just another example of how gossip and rumors harm. they are now considered the "truth".


Take your friend to the mirror and help him see his sin and while you are there take a look at what you are doing to make matters worse for Steve and the church by calling truth a lie and people who tell the truth slanderers. It just won`t fly here because there are too many things we now KNOW to be the TRUTH not rumor or opinion.


REPLY: very sad thoughts and you might want to learn more about the meaning of slander. you can tell the "truth" all day and still be guilty of slander. you are missing the entire point and it has been posted over and over


Even Steve`s old school mates are contacting people to tell them what he is really like so this is a deep dark well that looks as though it has no bottom.


REPY: more sad thoughts


You are not doing anyone a good service by the things you write and you are not being a peacemaker.


REPLY: I will let God judge that. my statements about slander etc are backed up by God's word. the blog and the slander on it cannot be backed up by the same.


If you want to help, go get Steve Gaines and ask him to give us all a date, time, and location, where we can all meet together and talk things over, one on one.

REPLY: one on one?? 7000+ in a room?? open mic?

Respectfully submitted for your consideration

REPLY: i would disagree greatly

Anonymous said...

his servant

Please do not try and say that all the deacons ALREADY agreed to give their loyality to the pastor.

PLEASE DON`T SPEAK FOR ALL THE DEACONS!

Would you care to post what the deacon`s agreed to before they were ordained?

We have the first letter from Chuck Taylor to look at and IF it is being changed or reworded this would stem from what?

Please do not try to tell anyone here that all the deacons agreed to sign this first letter as is.

I know you don`t want to embarrass the pastor by continuing down the path you are on to bring him more trouble.

Does he know you are here stirring up things on his behalf? I will be happy to let him know just so we can see if he approves of what you are doing.

Doesn`t Steve Gaines have enough trouble without you adding to it?

Be a good friend to him and stop your assaut on truth.

I am really wondering if you are here to just tire us out like the Rope a dope trick. I am not accusing you of this, I am just baffled as to why you would want to cause more strife in the flock of Bellevue.

Anonymous said...

perfect example of NOT having the facts. when ANY Deacon signs on as a Deacon, in the process, this is done. there is NOTHING fancy about the deal for the 19th. showing support of the Pastor and reaffirming what they already agreed to.

you and others REALLY need to get the facts before spreading rumors and causing more issues.

go to Mike Bratton blog and see what Derrick posted. he lists 2 EXACT things Deacons have ALREADY agreed to. Please come back and post your thoughts and what is the difference inj the 2. PLEASE.

you can then also admit you were wrong and spread the word and the TRUTH about the Nov. 19th deal.

David Brown said...

Dear His Servant:

There is an expression we use in the legal profession: "When person decides to represent themselves, they have a fool for a client."

I strongly urge you to do some real research such as consulting Black's Law Dictionary, 8th edition to determine the true meaning of slander. Also check out the meaning of libel. If you do, you will find what has been posted is neither slander nor libel. I will agree that some posts are in poor taste but they certainly do not rise the level of either slander or libel. You certainly would not be successful in a court of law. I think West TN Barrister told you the same time thing yet you still do not belive him? You keep asking for proof, Sir I challenge you to produce such statements that are either slander of libel.

Rather I propose you are upset when someone post something you don't agree with, you call it slander.

Brother His Servant, please refrain from making legal charges or legal judgments against posters. Your charges are hollow attempts to intimiate these people won't work.

Now you have been put on notice. I pray you will not continue to throw around words and phrases to threaten people. Once you have done your research you will have no other choice but to agree West Tn Barrister and I are right and you are wrong. I think some other brothers and sisters of you and I are due an apology. What do you say? I trust and pray you will be man enough to admit you have been wrong and ask their forgiveness.

Anonymous said...

you might want to research what the Bible says about slander.

Anonymous said...

david posted:

Now you have been put on notice. I pray you will not continue to throw around words and phrases to threaten people. Once you have done your research you will have no other choice but to agree West Tn Barrister and I are right and you are wrong. I think some other brothers and sisters of you and I are due an apology. What do you say? I trust and pray you will be man enough to admit you have been wrong and ask their forgiveness.


REPLY: words to threaten people? are you joking? when have I ever? how convenient that you seem to ignore the pure venom that some have posted in the last few days against me and Derrick and anyone in support of Brother Steve etc.

i never said that if I disgree with it, it was slander. the rumors, attacks, half-truths, 100% untruths, etc etc on the blog and elsewhere is slander.

it is sad that you and others are using the "oral" excuse to try and defend your actions.

Anonymous said...

and I guess you think libel is ok because the word is not in the Bible. you are splitting hairs to try and justify the actions.

can ANYONE on here say that they have NEVER EVER said any of these rumors, etc to someone in a conversation. that you have never ever discussed any of this in an oral way???

headoutofthesand said...

Seems like we may have another "just scroll on by" situation here...

Anonymous said...

because he is God's anointed.

i guess you are referring to spelling, no suprise

Anonymous said...

great posts david.

david said...

Tim,

You are attacking your church with gossip.

You are attacking your church with unproven lies the deacons have already dismissed.

You are attacking your church by resisting the deacons. Over 200 Godly men looked over those credit card reciepts; can you submit to their judgment?

You are attacking your church by suggesting the pastor is not anointed by God. That rises to the level of what the Sons of Korah did.

And I could go on. the point is simple, though: Knock it off! You are treading against something that is Holy and protected by the Holy Spirit. You should be more careful.

david said...

Tim,

"Anointed" is a term meaning setaside by God. Samuel anointed David to be king; he was set aside by God.

When Bellevue voted to call Steve Gaines as pastor, the church was agreeing as the Body of Christ that it believed he was anointed by God to be the pastor. Anointed refers to his calling and specifically his having been set aside to be pastor of the church.

This isn't simply honoring a title, it is honoring your church since the body agreed that this was the will of God. To say he is not anointed is to say the church was disobedient to God. I do not believe that is what you would say.

headoutofthesand said...

david said:

I know many of you get angry when Matthew 18 is brought up, but doesn't Scripture still overrule the internet?

No, david, some of us don't get angry. Some of us just wonder why you and hisservant don't follow Matthew 18 yourself and go to your brother (in Christ) in private instead of making your "case" in this blog.

The two of you have been asked this question several times but to my knowledge neither of you have answered yet...

david said...

God anointed Saul. God removed Saul. You are not God.

choice_is_yours said...

To those of you who think we should blame Dr. Gaines for what has happened to BBC this year or these past few months, I ask you to read carefully.

To those who say that all the problems at BBC this past year/past few months are due to slandering/gossipping "anti-" types (anti-bellevue/anti-christ, etc.) I Also Ask you to read carefully.


The problem might be that we might have drifted theologically from scripture.

Dear Brother Pastor Adrian had it right. We have to constantly get the focus back to the Word of God. And he kept us on course, but now we have to take over.

Is it possible that in the last few years Dr. Rogers might not have noticed some changes that were not in keeping with God's will?

Is it possible that he was going to speak out on this topic but his health declined and he passed away without getting us back on course? (actually, I think he did warn us, but maybe we liked doing it our way).

This papal infallibility is heresy and we are all guilty.

What it means is that we have undone 500 years of Reformation started by Martin Luther.

What it means is that we have put a man's word equal to God's Word.

This is idolatry. Polytheism. Self-worship.

When we say that a man, a leader of a church can take "ends justifies the means" actions because the Bible won't justify his plans, we have elevated pastors to a level of authority equal to the Bible.

And I am afraid that we have done this to ourselves despite Dr. Rogers constant warnings not to do this.


I remember... I think it was his 50th year preaching anniversery. The then SBC president said what appeared to be nice words about Dr. Rogers in front of the church.

All of us sheep were "Amen"ing ("Baaaa!") at the compliments by the SBC president.

Dr. Rogers rebuked him (and indirectly all of us) and said ~I think you have lost your mind because of what you just said.~ Dr. Rogers was unhappy because the compliments had gone too far. They made Dr. Rogers out to be more than any pastor (or any mortal) should be thought of.

Dr. Rogers was right.

We were trying to worship him.

He told us to trust the Bible and we have. But we have begun to trust the Bible because "Adrian said" so instead of because GOD said so.

If we blame all of the past year on Dr. Gaines, or if he blames it all on Mark Sharpe or "bad members", we're all going to be worse off.

We need to wake up and smell the coffee.

Don't you see all the pastors from other churches coming here to defend papal infalibility? They love it!

But we can't blame them either.

It's our sin for setting anyone up equal to the Bible, to Jesus.


This loyalty pledge... in any form it finally takes... is a perfect illustration of the problem.

Why are Deacons asked to do or be more than what scripture says? First Timothy 3:2-, etc. says clearly what is expected.

If we've added more to the requirements such as some written form that gives other responsibilities, "support the pastor"

tear it up!

The deacons should only answer to the people who nominated them, the members. (IMHO)

The Bible is sufficient instruction for the God fearing deacons of all God's church.

(please pardon the "tear it up!")

Respectfully submitted,

Choice

MOM4 said...

David said:
"When Bellevue voted to call Steve Gaines as pastor, the church was agreeing as the Body of Christ that it believed he was anointed by God to be the pastor. Anointed refers to his calling and specifically his having been set aside to be pastor of the church."

Sir,
When we called Steve Gaines as our pastor, we were deceived. No one told us of his history of lack of integrity, no one mentioned that he was hand selected by a search committee with questionable motives, no one told us about his money issues, no one told us he would renig on the promise to hold off on changes for one year, no one told us he would disrespect Dr Rogers, no one told us he would use BBC as his personal piggy bank, no one told us he would divide to conquer, no one told us he would FIRE Jim Whitmire so soon, no one told us he would rule in arrogance....shall I go on.
Being annointed under false pretenses is questionable to say the least..

david said...

Tim,

I didn't choose your leader. You and your church set him aside.

This arrogant attitude that you don't have to obey anyone becuase who knows if they're anointed is disrespectful. I agian warn you: Read acts 5, read about the sons of Korah.

You refuse to carry out Matthew 18. In 1 John 2:3-4 God says that if you say you love him but do not keep his commands, you are a liar.

What about the command not to gossip?
what about the command to obey leaders?
What about the command to submit to one another out of reverence for Christ?
What about the command not to take your case to the ungodly?

“Obey your leaders and submit to their authority. They keep watch over you as men who must give an account. Obey them so that their work will be a joy, not a burden, for that would be of no advantage to you.” Heb. 13:17

is your pastors work right now a joy or a burden?

By the way, my presence here: For someone to speak up and say "stop gossiping" doesn't make them a gossip!

Karen said...

Brother David,

Why do you insist on provoking Tim? He is a member of Bellevue; you are not and for most part you have nothing but provoke the posters here who are members of Bellevue. We are members of the body of Christ, but this is a local church issue. If you have no dog in the fight, why do you insist on getting involved? Are you enjoying yourself or do you not enough work to do at your own church?

david said...

karen,

My statement was clear up front: I desire that you obey the Word. that, my sister, is my dog in this fight.

It is strange that none of you answer with Scripture. You simply say: well, you don't belong here. matthew 18 doesn't work. etc.

My friend, the world is watching you. My dog is to get you to STOP.

We are called to provoke one another to good works. (That's in the Bible). so be provoked to good works! Stop gossiping about your church, go confront your leaders and get back to the business of church.

Was Paul a member of Corinth? What dog did he have? Was John a member of Pergamum?

I am amazed that the members of a church would want to tear down their church and would be offended when someone from the outside would say: Hey, don't do that!

david said...

Basically you want to gossip, but you don't want anyone to tell you it's wrong.

I'll stop if you can provide a Scripture that says your gossip is okay. Provide a Scripture that overrules Matthew 18.

MOM4 said...

Just a note:
(I may be mistaken, but:)
This blog site along with the savingbellevue site was passed by word of mouth until Mike Bratton & Co got wind of it..I had never even heard of it until after he became involved.
It was never intended to be a public domain, just insiders - which means - no outsiders who have no real clue were invited until the Gaines camp started their attacks??
Is this correct?

david said...

actually, it was reported in baptist press.

mom, why do you answer with: "Get out" instead of with the Word?

Are Baptist in Memphis people of "the book"? Do you have no cred but the Bible?

mostlylurkin said...

You guys are confusing me. This is harder to keep up with than watching Mission Impossible. How many are posting as "David"?

David said...
Dear His Servant:

I strongly urge you to do some real research such as consulting Black's Law Dictionary, 8th edition to determine the true meaning of slander. Also check out the meaning of libel. If you do, you will find what has been posted is neither slander nor libel.
1:31 PM, November 15, 2006


Then David said:

Friends,

At what point do you consider your continued slander against your pastor, open accusations and attempts to remove him "Gossip"? Isn't that what this blog site is? gossip?
2:20 PM, November 15, 2006


Maybe someone just forgot to say he said she said he said she said?????

david said...

mom 4,

if the people at savingbellevue.com aren't interested in outsiders coming in; why is there a big "counter" on the front page to show how many people have been there.

Obviously the leaders of this movement are courting the outside; only reason not only to count people who come to the website, but to stick it on the front page.

Anonymous said...

i just do NOT get why some have to continue to repeat things OVER and OVER that have already been addressed 1000 times. why??

choice: read what has been posted about the "deacon pledge" as you call it. PLEASE stop this stuff. EVERY DEACON has already signed on to these same things when they became a Deacon. it was the SAME under Dr. Rogers. it has been the same for YEARS and the same at churches all over the country. you are misleading people!! you are USING Dr. Rogers in a very bad way.

MOM4 said...

David,
Did I say "get out"? I have referred many times to Jeremiah 23, especially v1-4. This is my position - my belief and my hope.
In the mean time, I agree with Karen, you are causing strife where there should be none. The more you argue, the worse you look to us. You are not going to win anyone here over to your "side". You are not here, you do not know what goes on here and you are not qualified to give an opinion here. That is not a "get out", that is a fact.

stillwaitingandwatching said...

BELLEVUE FAMILY....

From here on out, I am asking that no one continue a discourse with Pastor David. He is not a member of Bellevue, in fact, he claims to be a pastor in another state. He just happened to stumble upon this blog, and for those reasons has no leg to stand on regarding issues of our church. He stated that he has read the blogs, yet continues to ask questions that have already been answered, either in the last two threads, or elsewhere on the blog. He claims to have read the blog, yet still has no clue as to what all the issues and concerns are. He continues to ignore the answers that have been given to his redundant questions.

Pastor David, you have stated numerous times that if people have come here and asked these questions over and over again, they must be right. No sir, first time outsiders to this family ask the same questions over and over again because they have no clue as to what has actually taken place. There have been numerous statements about gossip.....I am here to tell you that you only percieve this to be gossip becasue you have no possible way of speaking to anyone who is involved. Most of us have, and that, sir, is not gossip.

I have explained to him that he is witnessing a hurting church family, yet he continues to throw darts that only inflict more pain. He is a shephard of another flock mocking the pain of a shepherdless flock he has stumbled upon.

I implore you.....please, just do not respond. Tim, Karen, others.....he refuses to get it. You will never be able to appease him.

With all due respect, sir, you have become what other online communities would consider a troll. This is not an attempt to insult you, and if you think it is, then I implore you to look up the definition of what an online troll is.

With that said, PLEASE, Brothers and Sisters....Ignore him. Scroll on by....reconciliation is on the horizon, however, sideline quarterbacks, like Pastor David, are slowly thwarting the path.

Anonymous said...

mom4: "we" were not deceived. many are deceived RIGHT NOW though.

so you are saying that the Search Committee new of this "horrible past" and ignored it??

so you are saying that Dr. Rogers was VERY VERY VERY close to Brother Steve and Brother Steve was his choice even though he new of this stuff you claim? and PLEASE do not come on here and say it all existed and Dr. Rogers and others were not aware of it.

i would love a response

MOM4 said...

"Jeremiah 23"

Tim said...

HisServant said...
i just do NOT get why some have to continue to repeat things OVER and OVER that have already been addressed 1000 times. why??



This was so good that it is worth repeating.
Attention: Pot...this is kettle...your black.

mostlylurkin said...

Brother David,

Would you tell us again for the record as much about yourself as you can? Without your name and Church affiliation of course.

Assure us you are an out-of-towner and have not been asked by anyone at Bellevue to speak for them. You don't have to sign anything.

Anonymous said...

Karen: I thank God for david and his posts.

provoke? i see none and please don't blame anyone else for the anger, rumors, slander etc coming from some on this blog

choice_is_yours said...

Pastor david, (Is there also a capital-letter "David" posting today "from the other side of the aisle" or is that you as well?)

Pastor,

You are not annointed over anyone in this blog.

You are welcome to post here, but you are quite abusive in your language. I can give you examples of the abusive things you say. I am not slandering you. I am not libeling you. I am not gossiping about you.

You have diminished a portion of the respectability I had for you because you told us, anonymously, that you are a pastor.

A real pastor does not resort to abuse.

God's annointed does not resort to abuse.

Jesus does not abuse anyone.

The Holy Spirit does not abuse anyone.

God the Father does not abuse anyone.


Sir,

Please comment here and tell folks when you think they are wrong. We like accountability.

Just don't resort to abuse when you can't convince folks that you are right.

If you want to convinve folks you are right, use scripture and application that fits with this local context.

It will be hard for you to give good applications because you are not here.

Your general examples have been heard several times now.

Yes, you have tried to simply repeat your words to see if lack of repetition was an issue in the lack of response your attempted persuasive presentations generated.


You have been reassured that the scriptures you have mentioned have been investigated.

Specifically, Matthew 18 is said to be followed correctly by some at BBC. Some say it has not been followed corectly. Whether it has been followed correctly is part of the debate but you have not given any new applications that pertain to the local situation because you are not here.

You also have obviously (to a number of us) not read the body of literature in the archives of this site. Some of it is useless, some of it is golden. But each of us has had to sift through for ourselves and you have not "joined the club" spiritually or intellectually through such academic efforts.

You are an eager freshman on this topic. We invite you to dig.

We also invite you to have an open mind and have a mirror close by like we have to do everyday.

We are diligently working this our with fear and trembling. You have insulted this process with your abuse.

If you want to increase your reputation as an abusive person, then continue as if you had not read this comment.

I invite you to improve your reputation with those of us here in the name of Jesus Christ trying to put humpty dumpty back together again.

Choice

headoutofthesand said...

david said:

Basically you want to gossip, but you don't want anyone to tell you it's wrong.

I'll stop if you can provide a Scripture that says your gossip is okay. Provide a Scripture that overrules Matthew 18.


david,

I supremely hope that you are not actually a church pastor if this is how you treat the scriptures.

Let me paraphrase your response in plain English so we can expose your misuse of the Bible.

"I'll stop sinning if you stop sinning first."

That's pretty much it.

Amazing. I hope your flock is proud of you. I see why you remain anonymous.

MOM4 said...

hisservant,
Please do your homework. There is no way that we will see eye to eye on anything here until you do your own research and have something to base your opinion on besides something you are told.
In the meantime, you can also read Jeremiah 23, which is where I stand if you want to know what I believe about what has happened. And I have never "slammed" BBC, just the leadership who have lied, stonewalled and pushed us out the door from the beginning. Tell me where in scripture it says to "leave if you don't like it", tell me in scripture where it says that we should follow man blindly, show me in scripture where is says that man is infallable, show me in scripture where it says that Matthew 18 can be ignored. If you want to stop all of this - have a business meeting - with an open mic and the documentation to back up your claims.

Karen said...

David,

You have no idea of which you speak - go to savingbellevue.org and read all the letters that have been sent to Steve Gaines, Chuck Taylor and all the deacons of Bellevue Baptist Church. If you have not read them and then read Mark Sharpe's interview as custos suggested this morning, then you have no idea what you're talking about. Do you think we would be blogging all day if we could exercise Matthew 18? Matthew 18 has been exercised over and over and I believe it's still being exercised through this blog. Do you think we just came up with the blog one day - oh yeah, that's a good idea - before all other channels of communicating with BBC leadership had been exhausted? I'm not sure why you've appointed yourself to show us how wrong we are. Why do you care?

We are not gossiping, we are not slandering, we are not libeling - we have done the research, we've consoled those who have been wounded, and we are emparting knowledge to others members of BBC that my not have known what has gone on with thier leadership this past year.

See my earlier post - how many "handled badly" situations does SG get to have before he's called on the carpet over it? How many people can he call "Hezbollah"? How many people can he fire without cause; how many people can he intimidate; how many fences can he trespass over(aka break the law); how many???? How many sheep can he wound before we get another shepherd? Or at lease get our current shepherd to say he's sorry.

Karen said...

stillwaiting,

You're right - I'll scroll on by from now on.

Thanks! Karen

Anonymous said...

mom4 posted: David,
Did I say "get out"? I have referred many times to Jeremiah 23, especially v1-4. This is my position - my belief and my hope.
In the mean time, I agree with Karen, you are causing strife where there should be none. The more you argue, the worse you look to us. You are not going to win anyone here over to your "side". You are not here, you do not know what goes on here and you are not qualified to give an opinion here. That is not a "get out", that is a fact.

REPLY: i agree david, my jaw drops as well. simply unreal. mom4, you have the Audacity to come on here and talk about anyone else causing strife. and where there should be none?? trust me, it seems david is very qualified. he has the Word of God on his side as I do. you and many keep ignoring the TRUTH in his posts. there is nothing in God's word that you can find to defend yourself so you choose to ignore.

david has focused on ONE thing in everyone of his posts here. that is what the Word of God has to say. it is sad you and others find that not to be worth your time.

and you might want to take some of your own advice.

I love my church said...

Let's ignore david and hisservant. They are tools of the pastor sent to disrupt and frustrate. They may even be staff lackeys like Larry Ray or Phil Weatherwax.

Before you get angry at that comment, go find out what Larry did to Ray Saba. He was sent to do the pastor's bidding and didn't have the integrity to refuse.

The pastor isn't the only problem.

MOM4 said...

Again, read Jeremiah 23, and have a business meeting with an open mic. You are not going to make any changes here until that is done, decently and in order.
Matthew 18 has been rebuffed and ignored by the church leadership, can you do something about that? If so, we can talk.

Karen said...

david,
So what - they used email? What's the difference? Email is an acceptable form of mass communication - so now you're objecting to the form of communication that was used? As Tim said yesterday, what would you suggest we use to exercise Matthew 18? Telegraph, telephone, heiroglyphics, King James English,
sign language; what is the correct form of communicating Matthew 18? Men have spoken, written letters, emailed, telephoned - shall we hire a skywriter?

Custos said...

I seem to remember reading somewhere about a dog, someone grabbing him by his ears, and this being a bad thing. . . oh yeah, Proverbs 26:17 "Like one who seizes a dog by the ears is a passer-by who meddles in a quarrel not his own."

Just a thought.

Anyway, regarding David's contention that the "leadership" of those asking questions is "courting the outside":

David, I'm confused. No one on this side seems to be courting the public. Citing site counters as evidence seems dubious to me since they don't gauge location, church membership, or interested parties but simply aggregate numbers.

Further, I can't seem to get a response out of you regarding the defense of this and other forums as outlined in a link I sent you a few posts back. You attack the use of this medium but seem not to regard arguments that hold water.

You certainly don't need to feel obligated to respond--it's horrible being tethered to one of these online conversations--but you seem to just ignore all points made in defense of this medium without bothering to debunk them. That seems to amount to tacit capitulation or simply ignoring points that detract from your contention.

One way or the other, it would be nice if you'd either engage our points about the legitimacy of the blog, or refrain from firing at us while you ignore reasonable arguments. Otherwise this becomes more of a shouting match than a conversation, and that’s no good for anyone. I'm not trying to call you out or anything like that, I'm just making an honest request.

Best,
Josh

Anonymous said...

mom4: i have read Jer. 23 many times. so you are going to just ignore the rest of God's Word?

i know EVERYTHING I need to know. i have been around this a long time. new to the blog, but not knew to the rumors and slander and lies that make it up.

there are many people that are deceived.

Anonymous said...

karen: we have all read the stuff on this blog and others. old news. old rumors and slander and lies. rumors are changed and or added to every day. VERY SAD. so you are basing what you believe on Mark Sharpe?

MOM4 said...

Matthew 18 has been rebuffed and ignored by the church leadership, can you do something about that? If so, we can talk.
Until then, I shall scroll on by...

stillwaitingandwatching said...

Karen,

Ask NASS for my email address. Thanks.

Anonymous said...

7000+ emotional people in a room with open mic??

wow

BR said...

hisservant said:
"7000+ emotional people in a room with open mic??

wow"

You will be surprised who the hostile ones will be.

choice_is_yours said...

Dr. Gaines,

I believe you have honored me. Let me know if I am wrong. You honored me by responding. Here is what you said...




HisServant said...
i just do NOT get why some have to continue to repeat things OVER and OVER that have already been addressed 1000 times. why??

choice: read what has been posted about the "deacon pledge" as you call it. PLEASE stop this stuff. EVERY DEACON has already signed on to these same things when they became a Deacon. it was the SAME under Dr. Rogers. it has been the same for YEARS and the same at churches all over the country. you are misleading people!! you are USING Dr. Rogers in a very bad way.

3:20 PM, November 15, 2006

My response to you is that whatever form that started getting used for deacons at BBC or anywhere else at any time in the past...

Perhaps it was never meant to be taken so seriously. perhaps it was a mistake to start using any form.

But the Bible must be the criteria. Sola scriptura. We cannot add and we cannot take away.

We have a hard enough time simply OBEYING.

And if this form has become a stumbling block at BBC, tear it up.

If we are asking deacons to be unbiblical in order to become deacons... and if they are informed of this request AFTER they have been duly nominated by the membership, then this is not in conformity with Jesus Christ.

Tear it up! ASAP.

Problem solved!

Besides, man's laws that contradict God's laws are to be disregarded anyway.

No need to tear it up.

It is hence forth to simply be disregarded.


Let us all repent for having put our deacons into sin.

What we loose on earth is loosed in Heaven.

This binding is no longer upon the Deacons from this day forward.

AMEN?

Karen said...

hisservant,

Absoulutely not! I'm not resting on the word of one man. My involvement on this blog and with other hurting members of Bellevue had nothing to do with Mark Sharpe. I found out about Mark Sharpe after the meeting at the Bartlett Community Center. My beliefs come out of my own research and verification of facts with other BBC members. I have personal knowledge of the poor treatment of Jim Whitmire.

Karen said...

choice,

are you saying in your post that hisservant is Dr. Gaines?

Thanks, Karen

choice_is_yours said...

(offline)

Karen said...

Tim,

I caught that - ;)

Anonymous said...

there is NOTHING about the Deacon deal, past or present that against God's Word. where do you get this?

ezekiel said...

Pastor David........

For several days now we have heard you beat the drum for exercising Matt 18. During that time you have repeatedly ignored many posters who have told you that Mat 18 was attempted by Mark Sharp and was rejected by the administration.

So let us investigate Mat 18 and see how this goes.

18:10 Take heed that ye despise not one of these little ones; for I say unto you, That in heaven their angels do always behold the face of my Father which is in heaven.

Do the rants of the Deacons and the Pastors such as yourself rise to "dispise"?

18:11 For the Son of man is come to save that which was lost.

18:12 How think ye? if a man have an hundred sheep, and one of them be gone astray, doth he not leave the ninety and nine, and goeth into the mountains, and seeketh that which is gone astray?

Looks like the emphasis is on the shepherd looking for the sheep not trying to run them out of the pasture....


18:13 And if so be that he find it, verily I say unto you, he rejoiceth more of that [sheep], than of the ninety and nine which went not astray.

I am pretty sure you know where we are, are you glad to see me?

18:14 Even so it is not the will of your Father which is in heaven, that one of these little ones should perish.

I sure can't tell it by the venom coming out of you.....

18:15 Moreover if thy brother shall trespass against thee, go and tell him his fault between thee and him alone: if he shall hear thee, thou hast gained thy brother.

I am under the impression this was tried.

18:16 But if he will not hear [thee, then] take with thee one or two more, that in the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established.

Again, I thought this was tried.

18:17 And if he shall neglect to hear them, tell [it] unto the church: but if he neglect to hear the church, let him be unto thee as an heathen man and a publican.

Folks have been telling it to the church for quite some time. Does that mean He, the sinner, is a heathen? WOW

18:18 Verily I say unto you, Whatsoever ye shall bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever ye shall loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.

18:19 Again I say unto you, That if two of you shall agree on earth as touching any thing that they shall ask, it shall be done for them of my Father which is in heaven.

18:20 For where two or three are gathered together in my name, there am I in the midst of them.

That is pretty powerful, looks as if He is here with us today, why are you asking us to leave?

And while we try to maintain context, this addresses the way to correct a sinner/brother.

Yet you and many other Pastors thump their bible and scream "ordained authority". You shall not question "ordained authority"!!!

We are taught to not question ordained authority yet you keep yammering about imposing Mat 18 on the Pastor?

Make up your mind, Is Pastor Gains ordained authority, if so I direct you back to EZ 34 and Jer 23. He has scattered his flock.

If he is indeed the brother(equal status implied) then lets just boot him out of the church. He has been told one on one, 2 on one and now by the church. What are we waiting for?

You keep pounding the Matt 18 drum telling us to enforce it.

I think we are safer appealing to our shepherd to look for us , bind up our wounds and rescue us from the woods.

Anonymous said...

Brother Steve did not fire Jim Whitmire

things were not handled great and we all know that. Brother Steve made a mistake. he has tried to make it right and will continue to do so. with Jim Whitmire and the Choir and everyone involved

stillwaitingandwatching said...

REPOST incase some may have missed it......

BELLEVUE FAMILY....

From here on out, I am asking that no one continue a discourse with Pastor David. He is not a member of Bellevue, in fact, he claims to be a pastor in another state. He just happened to stumble upon this blog, and for those reasons has no leg to stand on regarding issues of our church. He stated that he has read the blogs, yet continues to ask questions that have already been answered, either in the last two threads, or elsewhere on the blog. He claims to have read the blog, yet still has no clue as to what all the issues and concerns are. He continues to ignore the answers that have been given to his redundant questions.

Pastor David, you have stated numerous times that if people have come here and asked these questions over and over again, they must be right. No sir, first time outsiders to this family ask the same questions over and over again because they have no clue as to what has actually taken place. There have been numerous statements about gossip.....I am here to tell you that you only percieve this to be gossip becasue you have no possible way of speaking to anyone who is involved. Most of us have, and that, sir, is not gossip.

I have explained to him that he is witnessing a hurting church family, yet he continues to throw darts that only inflict more pain. He is a shephard of another flock mocking the pain of a shepherdless flock he has stumbled upon.

I implore you.....please, just do not respond. Tim, Karen, others.....he refuses to get it. You will never be able to appease him.

With all due respect, sir, you have become what other online communities would consider a troll. This is not an attempt to insult you, and if you think it is, then I implore you to look up the definition of what an online troll is.

With that said, PLEASE, Brothers and Sisters....Ignore him. Scroll on by....reconciliation is on the horizon, however, sideline quarterbacks, like Pastor David, are slowly thwarting the path.

stillwaitingandwatching said...

Please let me make the above post clear....I am not just talking to Tim, Karen, Mom4, Josh and the like, I am also pleading with people like hisservant as well. PLEASE. Let's just ingore outsiders and listen to those that are in the BBC family on ALLLLLLL sides of the issues. Can you see me on my knees BEGGING you????

Tim, dear brother, I am VERY proud of you. You have SO much passion.

mostlylurkin said...

uh...Bro David..scuse me..if you have time...please...sorry

Brother David,

Would you tell us again for the record as much about yourself as you can? Without your name and Church affiliation of course.

Assure us you are an out-of-towner and have not been asked by anyone at Bellevue to speak for them. You won't have to sign anything.

3:27 PM, November 15, 2006

MOM4 said...

SW&W,
You are right, I shall scroll on by.. Thanks for the input..

Anonymous said...

mom4 and others, my posts??

Karen said...

SWAW and Tim,

scolling, scrolling, scrolling RAWHIDE!

LOL!

karen

Custos said...

David, I'm not sure I'm a leader of much of anything, and I usually try not to speak for anyone. I just count it an honor to stand with the ones who want accountability and biblical follow-through.

Regarding your suggestion: Near the end of August (before I was blogging about Bellevue-specific issues) I tried to see Dr Gaines and it didn't happen. I was told I might be able to expect a phone call from him. That never happened either. I sent an email. Never heard back. I've tried to communicate with the man and it hasn't happened.

On face value, I don't think I disagree with your suggestion: my contention is that the issues are lack of oversight, conduct unbecoming, and obfuscation, but there are many alleged specifics that I can't bring up as sin if I meet with him.

For example: I can't cite Dr Whitmire's relegation as sin against me (it didn't happen to me). I can, however, cite the charade that accompanied it because it affected me and the rest of us who are Bellevue members.

A common argument against those who are worried is that these sins weren't committed against us specifically. Well, to a point that's right--just take the above example. The problems with that argument, though, are twofold: 1) When a leader sins it hits everyone--bellevue has had ministers who have fallen come before the church to ask forgiveness since they sinned not only against themselves and specific individuals but also against the body they serve. And 2) If a pastor is, to use a sadly leftist term, "disenfranchising" part of his flock, I would argue that that's a sin against the whole flock because it affects the spiritual health of all.

Madness perhaps, but plausible. It is very hard to contend that the good-faith efforts of many haven't met with the actions described in Ez 34. Very hard I'm afraid.

Just my two cents.

Housewife said...

Choice, Karen, Tim,

It is almost funny that I was thinking the same thing... I started to REALLY wonder if Gains himself has been blogging with us. I'm not just talking about his lackies, but the man himself. And I started to become really suspicious when hisservant joined our "sinful" blogging ranks. =) I'm just glad I don't work for him so he can't fire me. ...10 foot pole!!!

Ana.

stillwaitingandwatching said...

Pastor David,

You are beginning to tread on thin ice, sir. You have said numerous times you were going to leave, yet you continue to stay. While it appears that you have calmed down some in your approach in the last couple of posts, it has become apparent that all you have done here is cause trouble. Your ideas for reconciliation have been duly noted and will be taken into consideration. I thank you for that. Those are the things you should have been posting here from the beginning especially if you were wanting to help a hurting church.

However, I have been asked by the moderator of this blog to keep an eye on things while she is away. We will be discussing deleting future posts from you or anything that sounds like something you have posted upon her return. I am sorry it has come to this, but you have overstayed your welcome.

Custos said...

You're right I suppose. This does sort of constitute feeding the trolls.

It's just that it's hard for those of us with prohpecy as a spiritual gift to let wrong stuff go--even if it does come from Trolls.

I'll try to do better, but I do reserve the right to jump back in if a particularly pesky troll argument pops up. =)

stillwaitingandwatching said...

Josh,

You've got mail.

Custos said...

PS It occurs to me that "Troll(s)" is internet lingo and may not register with everyone.

"Trolls" are people who do not belong on a chat site/discussion forum and simply show up to harass those who are legitimately conversing.

ezekiel said...

Pastor David...No, I think I get your point as have others. As a Pastor you seem to want it both ways, You want the flock subservient and in line to do with them as you will. Then when you face Christians that are willing to stand on what they believe and actualy employ the WORD to expose false teaching you want to run to the WORD and beat us up with it. I am tired of that tactic and choose to read it myself. And I find nothing in it that will protect false teachers or sheep shearers...... Consider yourself on notice.....if you want to beat me with the WORD, I bet I have the same copy you do!

People RISE!!!!! READ your WORD and put these self serving egotistical pastors in their place!!!!!!!!!!! Put down the milk and pick up the word!

4:51 PM, November 15, 2006

Bin Wonderin said...

NASS

There are some really good posts buried deep within these threads. Maybe a spot on the front page for the "best of" would be a good idea.

mostlylurkin said...

Could there possibly be something Bro David doesn't want to tell....nah...hes a Pastor.

Brother David,

Would you tell us again for the record as much about yourself as you can? Without your name and Church affiliation of course.

Assure us you are an out-of-towner and have not been asked by anyone at Bellevue to speak for them. You don't have to sign anything.

3:27 PM, November 15, 2006

Housewife said...

I know, Tim. I was telling my husband about it just before choice mentioned it. Also, I've had to use a lot of restraint from replying to a lot of the mess that some people say on here, basically spitting what they have heard from SG's camp. You can tell that they have not properly read everything already written and we have to go back and set them straight. I don't really blame them so much because it's a lot to read. But it does feel like we're taking a step back.

Anyway, someone usually steps up and says what I was thinking anyway, so I'll save my comments for when I feel warranted. (Although there were a couple of times I should have spoken up.)

Anyway, keep at it Tim. Karen, Pam and others, keep it up. Thank you for not giving in to the lies and corruption.

A.

David Brown said...

Two Davids:

This is from David B.

I see that Pastor David and I are causing confusion with some of you. My name is David B. and I am not a pastor. My only post today was to His Servant about accusing folks of slander when in fact it is not slander. He then replies and add rummors, gossip. I was speaking only to his use and charge of slander. I am not trying to defend anything.

My big issue and disatisfaction is over the hanlding of Dr. Whitmire. It was and still is plan wrong and I do have facts but that would not serve any purpose posting them here. It is my prayer that Dr. Gaines and Bellevue make an attempt to reconcile with Dr. Whitmire.

While I have the forum I know many other pastors that do not preach on Wednesday. This is a non-issue. My family recently left Bellevue and my current pastor does not preach on Wednesday. Instead he lets his associate pastor preach to get the experience.

And as far as the money issue, I too think that is a non issue. I feel strongly that there are enough checks and balances in place at Bellevue. How many of us have used our corporate card for personal business? I am certain the administration of Bellevue will see that they are remibursed.

Back to the this theme of this thread the Deacon Loyalty Pledge, I feel it is not necessary and will only add to further division. If the thing with Dr. Whitmire had been handled differently, I dare say most of this would not be taking place. That situation was such a shock to all of us that have been there a long time. It could have been done differently.

So what if Dr. Gaines has a different manner than Dr. Rogers? I do wish he were a little more like Dr. Rogers, but he is not. I feel my Lord will deal with him in HIS time and in HIS manner. HE doesn't need me telling HIM what to do. I am reminded of our Lord's Prayer, "Thy will be done" It does not say My will be done.

I promise in the future when I post to use David B. so there is not confusion. There are good people of both sides of this that are being hurt. It is a shame that some feel it necessary to pick apart someone's thoughts and opinions. Please accept their opinons and love them. I say once again I long for the day my beloved Bellvue gets past all of this and that brothers and sisters on both sides will be "one in the bond of love."

mostlylurkin said...

It's the "saying" they are talking about, "answers" are OK this time at least. Please

mostlylurkin said...

When folks don't get answers, they tend to make up stuff...least that's what I read somewhere.

Anonymous said...

David,

You have finally answered my question that I asked at 7:58 this morning. The problem is that you are addressing people who have tried to communicate with the Deacons & the Pastor for quite a long while. They have followed scripture and prayed for reconciliation and yet you speak to them as though they know nothing of the Word. You have judged their forum and called them sinner's for the last 2 days. I suggested more than once that you listen to them and try to understand but you would not let up and now you have been rebuffed.

Your advice to once again go to the Pastor & Deacons is good advice. I would like to suggest (as has been done before) that you arrange the meeting. I'm sure that a person of you position and influence can persuade the leaders of the church to sit down with the flock. I am also sure that the group can appoint a representative and develop a list of concerns by the time you get back to them.

The answer that you gave to my earlier question is found in Matthew 18:17.

Humbly,

BFG

Custos said...

*wandering by, hands in pockets*

*watching the troll*

*cooperating with moderators*

*whistling a tune*

Anonymous said...

why were posts removed?

Custos said...

Well, I remove my own because I'm inept and invariably find wording changes I want to make and gramatical errors to correct after I hit the post button.

stillwaitingandwatching said...

Hisservant,

Posts have only been removed, thus far, by the posts authors. That can be determined by:

"Comment Deleted
This post has been removed by the author."

Comments deleted by the blog administrator will say:

"Comment Deleted
This post has been removed by the administrator."

That's how you can tell the difference.

stillwaitingandwatching said...

David B. there is quite a difference in your discourse and Pastor David's. But, for the sake of clarity, would you mind changing your screen name to "imnotpastordavid?" LOL

Anonymous said...

David,

In all sincerity, you speak as if you KNOW that no "group" has approached the Deacons & Pastor and that only individuals attempted to follow Matthew 18.

Also, the fact that I earnestly read your posts means that I in no way disrespect your motives or intentions and in fact give great consideration to your advice.

I have never asked you to "go away" though there are some who grow weary of your 1-sided position that seems to have little knowledge of the facts.

I believe your "position" is one of a Christian, a church leader who loves the Lord and who truly loves His church. That is what you have held yourself out to be. Why would it surprise you that I would think you might have influence with other leaders in the church.

I was not being "cute". Nothing would thrill me more than to think you could contact the leadership at Bellevue and arrange the meeting that others have failed to do.

Also, don't think the leadership is not fully aware of the "list".

Humbly,

BFG

Anonymous said...

David,

I concur...you must be on the West Coast. I wonder what your sermon will be on tonight..?

choice_is_yours said...

Hey, I just witnessed to a Muslim at McDonalds :)

Good story.

I had just gotten thru drive thru and pulled into a parking space to listen to the radio while eating.

I turned off the car, and there's a guy...on the ground..?

Whatever; I start to unwrap my food.

I look again and realize it is a Muslim doing his prayers.

Oh no.... :( if I witness to him now my food will get cold...

(listen to my story all the way)

So I'm sitting there in true carnal indecision. Eat or witness?

So I put my food down and go witness.

I used the material I mentioned here the other day.

I also got through the 4 spiritual laws except for the invitation.

Then he had to go but gave me his phone number.

So I went back to my cold hamburger, 20 minutes later.

Guess what God did? There was this LONG HAIR in my burger!! So I got a hot new burger and they even gave me two apple pies for free :)

And while inside I saw the man's family.

I left a note for him to drop by my lukesgoodnews blog spot.

If he clicks on a link to here, please tell him to look for me or to go back to my blog.

I gave him my name, "choice_is_yours."

Thanks,
Choice.

p.s. (I'm just poting this, not lurking. And I'm going right back offline)

WOUNDEDANDBLEEDING said...

Greetings to you in the name of the KIng of KIngs, Jesus.

Jesus is my strength, my fortress, and my salvation!

I thank the LORD that he did not cast me away and never will even though I surely deserve to be!

I hope you don`t think me strange for sharing my weakness with you tonight but I am so torn in my Spirit.

Let me explain my feelings.

Something in all of this feels like a Spiritual Tug of War, with me and maybe some of you in the middle. I don`t if anyone else feels this way but I do.

When all of this began so many weeks ago, I had to go to bed from just being exhausted over it all.

The battle has grown increasingly weary and it has actually taken a toll on my health.

I feel were are witnessing the great falling away and this is what it feels like to me.

It`s like knowing all about the end of the Titanic story and being aware of the danger ahead of the ship, and watching the passengers party and brag about the Titanic being unsinkable....and there you are knowing the end of the story. It makes my heart flutter and my palms sweat to see eminent danger for people I love.

Who are those people?

In this case, it is our pastor and the leaders who we are all concerned about.

Love is what drove Brother Charles and I to go first to Brother Steve and we did everything we could to talk directly to him but it was never possible.

Love is what directed us to write the letters we wrote to the deacons and to other leaders of the church.

Love caused us to seek out the TRUTH.

Love is the basis for Brother Mark Sharpe`s first visit to the Pastor and his ongoning desire for reconciliation.

Love guided Brother Josh Manning to bring the Truth to the light.

I feel sure that Love tapped at many of your hearts and lead you to care very deeply about everyone concerned.

There has been a price to pay for loving our leadership and many of you may be weary like me but we will never regret the walk of Love.

Love is causes you, Tim to defend the Bride, and you David B. to share your heart with wisdom. Love is leading Nass and so many others.....I can see it, I can feel it, but I also feel the frustration of Love not being returned and it can really weigh heavy on you.

It is refreshing to remember that truest test of Love is to Love the unLoveable. the one who will not return it, the one who runs from your love ( which is the love of Jesus).

Love is tenacious at times and this is where we are, I think. I`m glad to know that Love never fails. Whether things get resolved or not, I am convinced we will remain in love with the people who do not currently want our love.

Are you weary dear brother and sisters? I am physically but not in my love.

Yesterday we found ourselves going to a Bellevue Brother to walk out Matthew 18 because we know that the Bible teaches us that we should never grow weary in our Love.

Back to the Titanic.

Those who love Bellevue just want to be sure that everyone knows there is serious danger ahead if someone doesn`t listen but there will come a day of sure destruction if no one cares to hear the TRUTH and act upon the TRUTH and if that happens, we will have to remember that we have done our best to warn everyone about the Titanic event that lies just ahead.
We know it is sinkable but those on the Titanic danced until the end, beliveing with all their hearts that the ship could never be sunk.

This is why I grieve so much.

Love causes me to grieve.

I feel like I am going under for the 3rd time tonight after reading all the unloving letters.

If I have done anything wrong to one person in this group, short of telling the absolute TRUTH (which I can not apologize for), please know that I love you and I would never do anything to hurt your feelings, NEVER, NEVER, NEVER! Will you forgive me for anything I may have done to any of you and set me free fo any conerns tonight.

I have so much more that I would love to share with you but I would like to tell you about something that happend this morning.

I recieved word from the Orphanage in Liberia that one of babies died. Her named was ADAMA. She was precious but so frail. I know she is with the LORD now nut hearing the news was bitter sweet. SO many of the little ones never make it past their 3rd birthday. Our new hospital is almost finished there but it wasn`t ready for little ADAMA. Would you pray for those who loved her and for the Hospital of Hope to be finished soon so these precious little jewels of Africa can have the health care that they really need.

If I am wrong in sharing about the children, please let me know.

Pray for me please!

Sometimes I do allow unkind words to embrace me and make me wonder if I am what they say I am! I know this is a sin, but I want to be real with you.

Thank you for letting me share my heart with you.

Under HIS wings and in HIS love,
Sister Pam Gremillion

Custos said...

Don't feed the trolls, guys. I know I did it but I hadn't been back long and didn't realize what a problem this is. My mistake.

Don't feed the trolls.

stillwaitingandwatching said...

Pastor David,

Thank you for changing the demeanor in your posts. This is the only type of "outsider" information that will be allowed, from here on out. Ideas from people that have suggestions for reconciliation will be welcomed. Continuing to bring up the issues you brought up when you first began posting, however, will not.

You wrote:

"If the purpose is to get an agreed upon list of concerns and devise a plan to go to pastor, I get it." It is, and I am glad you get it. This takes time for us to work through. What you are witnessing is a process. You also said,"But if this is just group think therapy where you write out everything S.G. has done, I remain deeply concerned." We are working through deeply painful issues here. As stated earlier, it takes time. Please do not be concerned any longer regarding this part.

Again, thank you for posting your suggestions. Now, go preach..... :)

stillwaitingandwatching said...

Josh,

I think the trolls are full and are settling down now.....hopefully.

Custos said...

Hope so too, SWAM. They seem to be attracted to bridges and blogs. =)

phil413 said...

Hisservant,
This is a repost and I am asking for a response. You are so quick to use the words lie, slander and libel, so what say you about your posting something that has actually been admitted by SG.

Hisservant said:
"he did not call Mark Sharpe "Hezbollah". the word was used, BUT that did not happen."
Reply:
You sir know not what you are talking about. So many of us on here deal with the facts and you continually belittle us with your ideas. SG said this to Mark Sharpe. How do I know? Mark Sharpe told me and I know Mark is a Godly honest man full of intregrety. I wish we had more of those qualities coming from our leaders and the pulpit.
Either the truth is not in you or you just don't care about the facts.
Phil. 4:13
David

Anonymous said...

Interesting.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't the Internet the most open, most interactive communications medium Al Gore ever invented?

Since this isn't a password-restricted forum, why is anyone surprised that a public forum would receive responses from... well, from the public?

--Mike

stillwaitingandwatching said...

Mike,

When you are walking around out in public, and you hear various conversations going on, do you interject yourself into everyone's conversation?? If not, do you think it is right for people to interject themselves into other people's conversations simply because they are in the public and they can be heard??? Hopefully, not.

Custos said...

Well Mike, I for one am not really surprised that folks are here who shouldn't be. Of course, I wouldn't be surprised when non-b'vue people showed up at a meeting inside the church building either (assuming we weren't denied it as a meeting place as we already have been). We wouldnt' be able to screen outsiders there, and we can't screen here for the same reasons. A password won't work either because it'd just get dissiminated.

Of course, this is rather a stale discussion since it was dealt with months ago.

phil413 said...

MKW,
I inadvertantly forgot to sign Matlock, but as far as I know nobody else has used Phil. 4:13 but me. I didn't mean to confuse. I'm still waiting on a response from Hisservant.
Choice,
Thanks for sharing that with us I pray God blesses the seed you have planted.
Phil.4:13
David Matlock

stillwaitingandwatching said...

Pastor David,

Thank you for deleting your post. I was about to request it be deleted. Thank you for taking it upon yourself to do so.

Churchmouse said...

Please accept my sincere appology, Mr. hisservant. I wrongfully gave you credit for MKW's post, but I see that you are in agreement.

HisServant said...
MKW posted:

Please, let the committee do its job. If the committee fails, invoke Matt. 18 on them and follow the Scripture. If there are truly as many of you as you claim, THEN step out of your anonymity and take this before the church (not just your accusations, but your identities, as well) -- surely you have nothing to fear if there are thousands of you and if the truth is on your side!

hisservant said:
REPLY: "GREAT post and thanks!!"

Karen said...

Does anyone know how the deacons are going to be presented to the church on Sunday? Do we "objectors" want to present ourselves as a unified front? I'd like to know if anyone has a suggestion for a next step. Thanks!

Karen

Karen said...

Tim,

Can NASS send me your email address so we can discuss this further?

Anonymous said...

housewife posted: Choice, Karen, Tim,

It is almost funny that I was thinking the same thing... I started to REALLY wonder if Gains himself has been blogging with us. I'm not just talking about his lackies, but the man himself. And I started to become really suspicious when hisservant joined our "sinful" blogging ranks. =) I'm just glad I don't work for him so he can't fire me. ...10 foot pole!!!

Ana.



REPLY: what a sad post. just more slander and junk. it is unreal how disrespectful you and others are being toward Brother Steve our PASTOR and others. simply unreal. PLEASE stop posting these feel good sayings and "in love" etc etc etc etc etc. it is obvious they are just words and not sincere. one second someone posts one of those and the next the same person posts a post full of anger.

some make posts making light of the same VERY SERIOUS rumors and slander you base your entire argument on. are they serious or are they a joke at the expense of someone else??? I think the Bible is crystal clear on that.

who are his lackies?? just more disrespectful slander and anger.

NO, I am not Brother Steve. how ridiculous.

Anonymous said...

the word Hezbollah was used, but he did not call Mark or anyone else that. you hear what you want to hear. you might want to listen to Mark's "recording".

Anonymous said...

yes, there are 2 david's. yes

New BBC Open Forum said...

hisservant wrote:

"who are his lackies??"

No comment.

NO, I am not Brother Steve. how ridiculous."

Choice and Brother Steve will be happy to know that. Thank you.

Okay, scrolling now...

Anonymous said...

NBBCOF,

i have not seen you calling out those on "your side" for their HORRIBLE, disrespectful posts. many full of venom and things meant to hurt others

Anonymous said...

when I think I have heard it all. sure Karen, that is the answer.

Anonymous said...

mom4 posted: David,
Did I say "get out"? I have referred many times to Jeremiah 23, especially v1-4. This is my position - my belief and my hope.
In the mean time, I agree with Karen, you are causing strife where there should be none. The more you argue, the worse you look to us. You are not going to win anyone here over to your "side". You are not here, you do not know what goes on here and you are not qualified to give an opinion here. That is not a "get out", that is a fact.

REPLY: i agree david, my jaw drops as well. simply unreal. mom4, you have the Audacity to come on here and talk about anyone else causing strife. and where there should be none?? trust me, it seems david is very qualified. he has the Word of God on his side as I do. you and many keep ignoring the TRUTH in his posts. there is nothing in God's word that you can find to defend yourself so you choose to ignore.

david has focused on ONE thing in everyone of his posts here. that is what the Word of God has to say. it is sad you and others find that not to be worth your time.

and you might want to take some of your own advice

Anonymous said...

libertyinchrist: unreal! part of your email is misleading at best. where do you get this Covenant stuff? where? are you going to answer this to this blog and then send another email with the correct info? it is far far far far from a Covenant. in most part all it is only reaffirming what the Deacons, ALL the Deacons, have already done. you and others are misleading people on this and shedding a false light on it. it is very basic. it is not a Covenant and not a "oath" as many have said.

any Deacon that had an issue with it had the chance to SPEAK UP and those same Deacons need to go back and review what they promised when they signed on the be Deacons.

there is NOTHING to this and we need to stop misleading people on it.

any many wonder why some of the "facts" on this blog and elsewhere are simply not true.

Karen said...

hisservant,
You wrotem "when I think I have heard it all. sure Karen, that is the answer."

That's what answer?

Karen

phil413 said...

Hisservant,
If as you say SG did not call Mark Sharpe Hezbollah, please explain why 2 weeks ago (nearly 100 days after he called him Hezbollah) did he call and finally apologize for calling him Hezbollah. Steve called Mark, apologized and told him "he really didn't think he was a Middle Eastern terrorist. Once again you want to deal with your ideas and not the facts. I could respect your opinions more if you didn't belittle everyone else for their difference in opinion. You too have a line that you do not wish your pastor to cross. For some that line has been crossed but for you it has not. Deceit from the Pulpit and self serving sermons are excused by you but many tend to differ.
Phil.4:13
David Matlock

Karen said...

Tim,

"S is for scrolling, that's good enough for me...."

Can you name that tune? :)

Karen

New BBC Open Forum said...

hisservant wrote:

"i have not seen you calling out those on "your side" for their HORRIBLE, disrespectful posts. many full of venom and things meant to hurt others"

Well, since it was addressed to me personally, I'll stop scrolling just long enough to say (1) you're repeating yourself, and (2) that if you've read through the comments in older threads, you would have seen several examples of that. Of course, I suppose HORRIBLE is in the eye of the beholder.

NBBCOF

Now, if you'll excuse me, I'll just be scrollin' on...

stillwaitingandwatching said...

Karen,

You crack me up...oh the days of the GOOD Sesame Street!!!!

Anonymous said...

and I guess you think libel is ok because the word is not in the Bible. you are splitting hairs to try and justify the actions.

can ANYONE on here say that they have NEVER EVER said any of these rumors, etc to someone in a conversation. that you have never ever discussed any of this in an oral way???

Bin Wonderin said...

there is NOTHING to this and we need to stop misleading people on it.

If there is nothing to it why do deacons get fired if they don't sign it?

Custos said...

Ok, so if we ever said anything we shouldn't have it disqualifies us from commenting about real sin? That sounds remarkably like the moral equivalence arguments I hear bandied about by my liberal friends--"well, we've messed up too so we can't judge anyone else."

I'm not sure I buy that line of reasoning since all have sinned and fallen short.

Also, saying you disagree with someone isn't libel. Libel's defintion is rather strict, and it might serve those of us accusing others of committing it to actually look the word up.

Anonymous said...

I've been following this blog since the beginning, all threads. I haven't seen this come up anywhere else. Did I miss it? Seems like this needs to be emphasized.

phil413 said,
Hisservant,
If as you say SG did not call Mark Sharpe Hezbollah, please explain why 2 weeks ago (nearly 100 days after he called him Hezbollah) did he call and finally apologize for calling him Hezbollah. Steve called Mark, apologized and told him "he really didn't think he was a Middle Eastern terrorist.

Anonymous said...

karen: to cause a scene in front of the church. your idea you posted

Cary said...

stillwaiting said:
When you are walking around out in public, and you hear various conversations going on, do you interject yourself into everyone's conversation?? If not, do you think it is right for people to interject themselves into other people's conversations simply because they are in the public and they can be heard??? Hopefully, not.

So are you saying this isn't a public forum? It's a private conversation that can be also be viewed by the public?

On the main page...It says, "This forum was created to provide a place where those who are seriously concerned about the issues facing Bellevue Baptist Church can come to comment and exchange ideas"

Forgive me, but I seem to be missing something. Where does it say that only members of Bellevue are allowed to comment about the issues? Exactly, nowhere. Pastor David seems to be concerned about what's going on, otherwise I'm sure he wouldn't take the time out of his day to comment. So he has come to comment and exchange his ideas with everyone else. What's the problem?

Custos said...

Presumably what's been planned by the leadership is not a "scene"?

Cary said...

I'll save stillwaiting, Tim, and others the time for posting this following message and I'll post it myself:

Attention: There's a new poster who supports Steve Gaines by the name of Cary! Everyone ignore him and scroll by his posts!!! Do not respond to him!

Anonymous said...

phil413: Brother Steve did call and say was sorry for anything he had done. he explained the Hezbollah deal and said he was sorry if it was taken in the wrong way etc. he did NOT call anyone Hezbollah. he used Hezbollah is their conversation.

stillwaitingandwatching said...

Cary,

you have obviously not run across my previous post yet, so here it is in its entirety. I will give you an opportunity to retract your above statement, please....

"stillwaitingandwatching said...
Please let me make the above post clear....I am not just talking to Tim, Karen, Mom4, Josh and the like, I am also pleading with people like hisservant as well. PLEASE. Let's just ingore outsiders and listen to those that are in the BBC family on ALLLLLLL sides of the issues. Can you see me on my knees BEGGING you????

Tim, dear brother, I am VERY proud of you. You have SO much passion.

4:37 PM, November 15, 2006"

stillwaitingandwatching.....for an apology.

stillwaitingandwatching said...

Okay, Cary, so now, my next question is....are you a member of BBC???

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