Saturday, November 18, 2006

"A Message to the Congregation"

In the front of the Communications Committee booklet sent out by the church this week is an open letter entitled "A Message to the Congregation" which is signed by Harry Smith, Chairman, and committee members, Jim Angel, Jeff Arnold, Jim Barnwell, Al Childress, David Coombs, John Crockett, Derek Duncan, Scott Foster, Bryan Miller, David Perdue, Mark Spiller, Steve Tucker, Wayne Vander Steeg, and Chuck Taylor, ex-officio. If you have not received a copy or are not a Bellevue member and would like to view the booklet (mostly) in its entirety, you may do so here. See the "Introduction" section to view the letter.

In the letter is this request from the committee:

"We would also kindly ask our membership to refrain from writing e-mails and responses on websites or blogs. This only serves to spread misinformation."

Your thoughts about this, please.

And if you happen to know someone whom you think might benefit from reading some of the "misinformation" to which Mr. Smith and the committee members referred, please refer them to this website, the URL for which is:

http://newbbcopenforum.blogspot.com

It seems only fair that people be given the opportunity to hear all "sides" of the issues so they can then have a truly informed opinion.

480 comments:

1 – 200 of 480   Newer›   Newest»
allofgrace said...

While I would agree that we should be careful as to what is posted here and elsewhere, the simple truth is, this blog or any other similar blog or website wouldn't exist if this mess had been handled properly in the first place. I'm not excusing anything that has been posted that is wrong...2 wrongs never equal a right...but again...if this had been handled correctly in the first place, we wouldn't be seeing this on the internet.

LibertyInChrist said...

This letter is a diplomatic way of trying to censor the voice of the afflicted at the very least and strikes me as a threat...but what do you expect from a cult? This intimidation just puts one more nail in the Bellevue Baptist Church cover-up coffin!

Finance Guy said...

....we wouldn't have a Communications Committee, deacons who were being serious about deaconing, or any attempts at all by the lay and staff leadership to at least appear to be addressing concerns and issues. While it’s unfortunate that the world had to be able to see this, it appears this was/is the only way to get their attention. I could say a lot more about accountability, and how it’s been common throughout history for leadership to attempt to control the media., and the internet has made information dissemination an entirely new ballgame..but the point is made.

Anonymous said...

I am sad to say after reading some of the material in "A Message to the Congregation" that it is once again filled with half truths and untruths. I guess we'll have to spend the next several weeks now discussing how we have been deceived again in any statement that has been falsely sent out.

Case in point:
"Did Mark Dougharty receive a one-year salary bonus?
No. Two years ago a deferred compensation benefit was given to Mark Dougharty, Associate Pastor, provided that he completed 10 years of service. A deferred compensation benefit simply means he cannot receive it until he retires. He will receive an additional benefit if he completes 25 years of service.

This benefit was consistent with other benefits awarded to former pastor Dr. Adrian Rogers, former Associate Pastor, Bob Sorrell, and Minister of Music Emeritus, Dr. Jim Whitmire."

----------------------------------

Fact is: The two year statement itself is playing with people. Steve Gaines has been here for over 1 year. 2 years is supposed to sound like it was before Dr. Rogers left. I've been told that this transaction happened after Dr. Rogers retires but before we had a new pastor. It's my understanding that while we were without a pastor, Mark Dougharty was given this by the "transition team" which had nothing to do with his 10 year service. Deferred comp that he will get when he retires, partly true. If he was to be fired or leave on his own, it was my understanding that he still walks with a whole year of salary plus all of the other money Bellevue has put into his deferred comp package. It's also my understanding that the church was not notified, and also that all of the members of the finance committee were not aware of this transaction. Perhaps they are now.
I also understand that Dr. Rogers got 6 months severance when he retired. This comes from within the finance office. Dr. Whitmire I understand got the same 6 months severance but it was bumped up to 12 months well after he was forced out but after it was found out that Mark Dougharty was given 12 months. The communications committee needs to address this issue.

Custos said...

Oh, this is silliness. Alexander Hamilton said. "The best we can hope for concerning the people at large is that they be properly armed."

Well, I'd modify that to read, "The best we can hope for concerning the people at large is that they have read 1984."

Censorship is unacceptable. The ability to think, reason, discuss with our fellow believers is essential.

Thinking of this, I'm reminded of the classic Two Minutes Hate scenes from 1984: The powers that be would gather everyone around, jeer at those who opposed Oceana, and take comfort in their mutual ignorance and complete abdication of reason and will to Big Brother.

Of course, these people could never exactly say why the people they jeered at where wrong or bad or worth condemning. They hadn't read anything written by the objects of their derision. They hadn't spoken with them. They simply couldn’t' stand them because Big Brother said they were bad--those gathered there had abandoned their God given gift of free-thought.

Well, that's more or less what we're getting here. The closing of the bellevue mind. Statements coming down from deacons, staff, SS teachers; all of which say don't talk with these people, these people are in sin, they're not worth your time, they're just filled with anger and hatred, their speech is sinful and you will be too if you listen.

This is good advice if it's predicated on truth. It's pretty rotten advice if it's designed to obscure the truth as censorship so often is.

Folks, openness is where it's at. The truth does vindicate the righteous, and hidden sin will be uncovered. Which side of the last sentence bodes well for the administration? Well, from their recent publication, I'd say neither.

PS I'm not implying that Dr Gaines is Big Brother or that he is engaged in a systematic attempt to rule the people of belleuve through torture or by waging war on other churches. On the contrary, he seems to like helping other churches (the already fully insured kind). Also, I'm not implying that Dr Gaines or anyone else is encouraging people to hate other people. The Two Minutes Hate is just a very salient example. Just wanted to be clear there . . .

Anonymous said...

Three new members were added way after the initial "team" was assembled. It seems that decisions are made quickly with the administration and then afterwards more decisions are made to cover the prior ones.
Al Childrress, Jim Angel, and Derek Duncan certainly bring credibility to the "team" but they were not around for the early playbook. I say let the congregation offer up a new list of names that will be balanced. Only then will this look right. It looks like a coverup to most. How can you take answers from a group that has not been willing to let the people involved be cross examined?

New BBC Open Forum said...

Ding ding ding ding!!!

"Censorship"

We have a winner! "Custos" said the secret word. Unfortunately, he doesn't win $100, but in recognition of his efforts I submit this. Congratulations!

Custos said...

Thanks NASS. Want to make a bet as to how long it will take for my literary allusion and bland argument to be called "hate"?

I'm thinking not too long since it seems that anything other than the most anemic disagreement gets painted as hatespeech. Dude, it's like we're arguing with people on the political Left here!

stillwaitingandwatching said...

Custos,

You amaze me with your wise words and illustations. BRAVO!!!

wereitnotforblogs....THAT is the BEST name ever!!!!! And I agree with you.

stillwaitingandwatching said...

Custos, I have had that thought more than once!! But....don't you dare compare these actions to what we've seen from a certain president from Little Rock with gray hair who wears the blue dress in the family. Dont you dare!

cjesusnme said...

Custos,

Who cares what they label us as! I have become numb to their words. I feel like I can't be hurt anymore. I got pretty down about this whole mess initially, but now I'm determined to fight for the truth. Through our precious Lord and Savior, YOU, dear sir and others like Mark Sharpe have given us the courage to stand beside you to demand for the truth and light to appear! Keep on dear brother and we will go to battle with you!

Tim said...

We were taught to search for the truth. We were taught to check the facts. We were taught to blindly follow no man.

I was surprised that the three monkeys "See No Evil, Speak No Evil, Do No Evil" were not pictured somewhere within the pages of this mis-communication.

Silence is not an option.

Custos said...

SWAW and cJesus, thanks for the sweet words of encouragement. But let me thank you wonderful people for standing! I'm insulated far away at school right now. You've got this ugly thing staring at you daily! It takes much more courage to do what you guys are doing than what I've done.

My love to you.

Bin Wonderin said...

Given the lack of bylaws and refusal to hold regular business meetings this web site should continue. How else would we know that Dr. Gaines gave $25,000 to a church that teaches heresy and is using tithes for personal use such as airplane tickets cheerleader tryouts.

If BBC will start having monthly business meetings, open forum Q&A sessions for all committee chairmen and allow the congregation to amend the BBC bylaws in a way that will protect BBC from a hostile takeover such as the Germantown Baptist bylaws protected them then we can talk about shutting down the websites.

The BBC bylaws are ½ page long while the Germantown Baptist bylaws are 34 pages long. GBC has a business meeting every single month and they post a transcript of the entire meeting on their website for all members to view. Each of their committee chairmen takes the floor to answer any and all questions during the meeting.

Call your friends from work that attend GBC if you do not believe me. That is how I found out.

Come into the light BBC administration.

westtnbarrister said...

The only reason our members knew to ask questions, or what to ask, was because of the existence of Saving Bellevue and the blogs.

Since the leadership refused to provide an open forum inside the church, certain members provided one outside the church.

When the pastor stood in the pulpit of a sister church and openly joked about preventing Bellevue members from speaking, he should have expected members to redouble their efforts to be heard. God is not mocked and we don't like it much either.

If the pastor were more circumspect with his words, the members would be more likely to respond in kind.

Below is the last paragraph of an email I sent all of our deacons more than a month ago:

"Of course this is just one concerned man’s opinion, but unless decisive and public action is taken, this will fester and eventually rip Bellevue apart at her seams. The church deserves answers and they deserve them soon so we can go on about the Lord’s work. We should not proceed with even one more service with these issues boiling under the surface. There is a palpable tension that is disturbing our worship. That tension will never go away until all grievances have been aired and all issues discussed. Both sides deserve a full and fair hearing in front of the church body in accordance with Matthew 18. I believe it should be done this Sunday morning, not after an evening service. We can’t worry about chasing away or offending visitors. We must take care of this matter or there won’t be a Bellevue any of us recognize for them to visit. I call on you to be courageous. Tough decisions must be made in order to reconcile the body."


Well, instead of taking public action, this matter was turned over to a committee and the crisis festered, even escalated. I believe our church is indeed ripping apart.

Someone once wrote that "America is coasting downhill on a godly ancestry, and God pity America when we reach the bottom of the hill."

God pity Bellevue when we reach the bottom of the hill.

Anonymous said...

Only when Dr. Gaines and Mark D. "come clean" will restoration begin.

If he doesn't, it never will.

New BBC Open Forum said...

custos wrote:

"Want to make a bet as to how long it will take for my literary allusion and bland argument to be called 'hate'?"

I'd say about the time "stevesservantthedeacon" checks in. He was up pretty late last night, so he may be sleeping in this morning. Shhhhhh...

NASS

Tim said...

Group,

I would like to offer a brief synopsis of what has happened on this blog since the beginning.

A couple of acronyms will help to shorten the process. As well I will speak in generalities to keep from boring to tears those that have already seen it.

US …(U)nited (S)ervants
THEM…(T)rusting (H)is ..Gaines
not God (E)very (M)ove


US: Statement of Truth

Them: Lies, Slander, Gossip

US: Proof of Truth

Them: That never happened

US: Irrefutable Proof of Truth

Them: Ok, that happened, but
we knew that and so what.

US: Revealing Truth of Biblical
Principles To Refute So What

Them: Umm. There is a logical
and reasonable explanation.
Let the committee work.

Them: Ok the logical and
reasonable explanation is…

US: Error in The Logical
Reasonable Explanation

Them: ok..just a minute there is
is a logical and reasonable
explanation that the logical and
reasonable explanation is
flawed. Let the committee work.

Them: Lies, Slander, Gossip

ME: Baaaaaa loooonnneyy!

The truth, the whole truth is not an ever moving target.

For those that may have some confusion over what the battle at Bellevue is really about. I would like to offer this.

Ephesians 6:12
For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.

I should not have to remind anyone, but will that the above passage has heavenly meaning, earthly meaning, personal meaning, spiritual meaning and congregational meaning. I wanted to dispel the arguments before they were begun.

Tim said...

Additional comment the division of the camp (us & them) is not something that I have created. We are indeed divided and if we can not be united in the truth, then we must be divided by the truth.

Anonymous said...

except for grace, there go I...

Love, speak the truth in Love :)

We are divided, but there's no need to label the camps. Only speak the truth.

Anonymous said...

Question- Are the deacons still planning to send a message to the congregation by standing in support of the pastor tomorrow?

praying4ewe said...

I guess we won't be seeing much of Derrick or Mike around anymore. I'm sure they don't want to disappoint the instructions they've been given from their church leaders.

cjesusnme said...

charis said...
Question- Are the deacons still planning to send a message to the congregation by standing in support of the pastor tomorrow?

Unless they have only told the ones who have signed the oath to do so, they are not. We had dinner with a Deacon who is not in support and even with the deadline extended, it would be an embarrassment to them to do so now. They just don't have the numbers to prove their "100% unity" of the Deacons.

Tim said...

Chearis,

Let me preface this by saying that I am not questioning you or your convictions, but rather I am explaing to others who will read this blog and I would like to insure that they understand what I am speaking about.

Romans 16:17-18
17 ¶ Now I beseech you, brethren, mark them which cause divisions and offenses contrary to the doctrine which ye have learned; and avoid them.

18 For they that are such serve not our Lord Jesus Christ, but their own belly; and by good words and fair speeches deceive the hearts of the simple.

We are told to mark them and God has judged them and told us how to identify them. This indeed is a double edged sword and can only be swung, when interpreted correctly. The key word in this passage is "cause". "Cause divisions". Where is the cause of these divisions? Have I caused these divisions by pointing them out? Has this blog caused them? No, to me it is plain where the cause lies and I have marked them.

cjesusnme said...

praying4ewe said...
I guess we won't be seeing much of Derrick or Mike around anymore. I'm sure they don't want to disappoint the instructions they've been given from their church leaders.


I don't know about you, but I pray that they are here today and we could assume that they are "on the fence" if they don't follow the orders of their leaders! You know, I am convinced that this blogsite has been informative to some who just didn't know and the truth has shed light on all of this for them and that is why people are now asking questions! I welcome those who are still in question! They read enough here and they will know where the truth can be found!

Anonymous said...

To whom it may concern,

I'm still unsure whether this forum is a useful tool in God's hand.

I've observed anger, impatience, judgement, and other acts which are inappropriate for Christians. I've also seen apologies, encouragement, forgiveness, and other acts which have surely been pleasing and honoring to God.

Before deciding if we're doing any good, we need a clear understanding of the good we should strive for.

Romans 8:28-29 (NLT paraphrase)
"And we know that God causes everything to work together for the good of those who love God and are called according to his purpose for them. For God knew his people in advance, and he chose them to become like his Son, so that his Son would be the firstborn among many brothers and sisters."

To me, this passage is saying that the good everything works toward is for his chosen people to become more and more Christlike.

Is the forum helping us do that? Could it possibly do it more?

LibertyInChrist said...

The message to the congregation could not be more convenient for Derrick Calcotte, since he still has failed to even produce any documentation of his original charges of slander against James Sundquist. We are still waiting! Any other brothers out there care to bring Mr. Calcotte before the church to produce them or resign! Now all is well in the State of Denmark? No! All is not well in the State of Denmark!

WOUNDEDANDBLEEDING said...

The Titanic Cost of Ignoring the Warning!

On April 10, 1912, the RMS Titanic set sail from Southampton on her maiden voyage to New York. At that time, she was the largest and most luxurious ship ever built. At 11:40 PM on April 14, 1912, she struck an iceberg about 400 miles off Newfoundland, Canada. Although her crew had been warned about icebergs several times that evening by other ships navigating through that region, she was traveling at near top speed of about 20.5 knots when one grazed her side.
Less than three hours later, the Titanic plunged to the bottom of the sea, taking more than 1500 people with her. Only a fraction of her passengers were saved. The world was stunned to learn of the fate of the unsinkable Titanic. It carried some of the richest, most powerful industrialists of her day. Together, their personal fortunes were worth $600 million in 1912! In addition to wealthy and the middle class passengers, she carried poor emigrants from Europe and the Middle East seeking economic and social freedom in the New World.
+++

The communication crew on duty aboard the Titanic did not heed the warnings of fellow seagoers and similarily and sadly we often find ourselves ignoring the LORD`s warnings!

IF we could somehow see the SHIPWRECK just ahead of us, we would be so thankful for anyone the LORD would send to warn us!!!

Perhaps one of reasons we usually don`t heed a warning is because we just don`t believe there is any danger ahead of us. We may believe that come what may, we are strong enough and smart enough to handle anything as though we are unsinkable but remember the Titanic was once thought to be unsinkable! in fact, because many were so convinced that the Titanic was so perfectly developed, they became arrogant enough to say "NOT EVEN GOD CAN SINK THIS SHIP"!!! Surprizing, history will reveal that those who believed the Titanic to be unsinkable, went confidently sailing with a Myth , not facts! When we set our sails without TRUTH as our guide, it will almost always lead to disaster!!!

If we truly love the LORD and sincerely love out fellowmen, we will warn them about the dangers ahead and if we truly love the LORD and our fellowmen, we will be thankful for the warnings they bring us!!!!

This is just part of loving each other!!!

This is what the scripture means when it says,

"Faithful are the wounds of a Friend"!

A Friends wounds will heal quickly when love is applied and we will be ever so grateful for it when we finally see the
devastaion it helped us to avoid!

So in love I say:

Let us never fail to heed the LORD`s warnings!
+++
Let`s us be glad and thankful for brethren who care enough to caution us!
+++
Let us always be Lovers of the TRUTH
+++
Let us search for the TRUTH and never believe hearsay.
+++

Let us Live our lives JUST FOR JESUS every day, in every way!!!

Just For Jesus Ministries
Charles and Pamela Gremillion
----------------------------
"I also will choose their
delusions
and will bring their fears upon them; because when I called, none did answer; when I spake, they did not hear: but they did evil before
mine eyes, and chose that in which I delighted not." Isaiah 66:4, KJV

"... because they received not the love of the truth, that
they might be saved. And for this cause God shall send them
strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:"
2 Thessalonians 2:10b-11, KJV

WOUNDEDANDBLEEDING said...

Greetings to all my dear brothers and sisters in the most holy name of Jesus who is TRUTH!

The news that there are many deacons who refuse to sign the Loyalty Letter has brought my heart great encouragment!

What we are witnessing, Biblically speaking, are the "MIGHTY MEN OF VALOR" on the bloody battlefield of Faith!!! I have seen few of them during this battle but when I see one, my heart does rejoice!!!

One day I believe many who are now opposing those who are taking a stand against the Leaderships current direction, practices, ect, will come and thank those who the LORD called out to take a stand.

Men like:

MARK SHARPE
RICHARD EMERSON
JOE BENSON
JIM HAYWOOD
JAMES WHITMIRE
TERRY BRIMHALL
TED MINOR
JOSH MANNING
DAVID BISHOP
RIAD SABA
JESSE MCCLERKIN
ALL THE DEACON WHO HAVE TAKEN A FIRM STAND
IWASTHERE (A BLOGGER DEACON)

WOMEN LIKE:
CAROL PEMBERTON
LINDA WHITMIRE
JOYCE ROGERS
NASS

They are Heros of the Faith!

And every person on this forum who has helped to bring the TRUTH to others, are also Hero`s of the Faith.

May the LORD honor each one with many crowns to throw at Jesus precious feet!

Remember I love you.

Under HIS wings and in HIS love.

Sister Pam Gremillion

WOUNDEDANDBLEEDING said...

Greetings to my beloved Bellevue family in the powerful name of Jesus.

We would like to add the name of JAMES SUNQUIST to our Heros of Faith list and may the number be increased as the days go by!

Under HIS wings and in HIS love,

Sister Pam

Anonymous said...

So am I to understand that it is perfectly acceptable for the Communications Committee to use a website to provide their perspective about church problems (www.bellevuecommunicationcommittee.org), but they are asking other church members to refrain from doing so? Hey committee, let's apply a little critcal thought to our decisions and remember that as Baptists we subscribe to congregational rule which allows for diversity of opinion. This request will be better received if we ever change to elder or bishop rule.

Anonymous said...

BBC says that Gaines didn't negotiate his salary, yet also says 'an increase to compensate for additional living expenses' was made at a later date to increase his salary. Think about the wording of this. They didn't say they gave him a raise as soon as he came here, but that is what they did! Why? Sounds like a little negotiation going on to me.

I love my church said...

Our very own RM (Dr. Randy McDonald) posted this on his blog:
http://sbobserver.blogspot.com/2006/11/my-ears-are-tired-of-hearing-this.html

"My Ears Are Tired of Hearing This

Do your ears ever get tired of hearing all the Baptist trash that is around us? Mine sure do! Even though I wish we lived in a perfect world, we don't--so I have a few questions that pop into my mind from time to time...

1. Why is the SBTC so silent about the Valleygate scandal? (Perhaps because they gave Otto money too.)

2. Why is the SBC cooperating with law enforcement officials and the BGCT is not? (Perhaps there is more to be learned.)

3. Why do so many want to jump on the bandwagon to destroy David Montoya when we should be thanking him for waking us up. (At least he helped us stop the corruption at $1.3 million.)

4. Why does the SBTC continue to preach about tongues and alcohol and permit adultery in their midst? (I would have said fornication but adultery is between two married people.)

5. Why doesn't the Executive Committee of the BGCT actually turn into men with some integrity and do something about this mess instead of running away?

6. Why do disgruntled people in Bellevue BC in Memphis have a blog to share their dirty laundry and ungodly thoughts with the entire world?



Anyone else see the hypocrisy?

Anonymous said...

I love my church,

Glad to know you are reading my blog. There are other pastors out there who are praying for your pastor and your church (www.sbcinterruption.blogspot.com)

Give me a shout if you ever come through Dallas and I'll buy you a cup of coffee. You might want to email me your real name first though.

Custos said...

Tim: Excellent synopsis earlier. You nailed it, except the final step on Their side should have been: We're rubber and you're glue . . . ;-)

PS 43:3: Great observation!

cjesusnme said...

custos,

Did I hear your were on Fox News this week?

Anonymous said...

I decided to visit "RM" Dr.Randy McDonald's church web page. I think I now know why he dosen't like church members questioning their leadership.This is an excerpt from his church's web page.

"Simply Structured - We assign the ultimate leadership of the church to the pastoral staff and elders. The daily operations of the church are under the leadership of the church staff assigned to those specific areas."
Notice the word ultimate.
I guess he feels a kinship with SG
As for his bloging attacks on the members of BBC for questioning their leadership. While he constantly attacks the SBC.
RM, your hypocrisy has put on my scroll over list. I welcome you to the ranks of Mike Bratton,and His$25,000servant

Anonymous said...

rm

You have an internet site with critical observations for the whole word to view.

You give out the blog address of this forum so others can here and read our messages.

You post messages here that are critical of blogging about our concerns.

You send out letters to individuals who have posted here and admonish them for even writing about their concerns where others can see it.

AND YOU CAN`T SEE THAT YOU ARE A HYPOCRITE?????

i have more respect for the r.m. that my children enjoy.....RONALD MCDONALD!!!!

And you counsel people?

Again, I would rather go to RONALD MCDONALD for help.

DadofFour...Thank you for your post!

stillwaitingandwatching said...

Hmmmmmm, great observations....so Randy McDonald, a pastor if I remember correctly, leads an elder led church? NO WONDER!!! So, I don't know about you all, but he has lost all credibility with me.

Anonymous said...

his servant

Please identify who the his is in your blog name.

I can understand deacons that don`t think they can anme themselves right now and memebers who think they have to hide their real names or take a good sheep beating from those who oppose their stand for truth but I can not understand why any real LEADER at the top of Bellevue`s sraff having to post anonomously?

Are you really a person speaking for Bellevue or just someone joking around with us?

For all I know you could be r.m.

Dr. Randy McDonald the Hypocrite Preacher from Celebration Bible Church in Texas who is a friend of deacon Derrick Calcote of Bellevue

OR

r.m. RONALD MCDONALD who honestly tells more truth and has more integrity than the above r.m. (RIDICULER OF MEN)

Custos said...

cJesusinme,

Wow, word does travel fast. I was slated to be on, but ended up being cancelled. It was a relief though, since I've got a mountain of work here to plow through over the weekend. You know, I was scared the topic would be some ridiculous People or Us Weekly issue that I'd have been completely ignorant about. Besides, I like most of the company around here better. =)

Thanks for asking,
Josh

Anonymous said...

test

Custos said...

So RM's a troll. I think we know what to do here.

DadofFour, well said.

cjesusnme said...

custos,

Thanks for the info....we have a mutual friend who told us about it and my husband taped it and couldn't find you. Now, I can let him know that he didn't miss you because it has been driving him crazy! LOL!

Thanks, God Bless and get to studying! Hope to see you around the holidays!

Anonymous said...

Nothing is wrong with using the blog. Who has hours these days to go sit in the public forum/sanctuary and listen to hours and hours of discussion? At least here, we can address the issues while our congregational leadership postures itself. This forum is more accurate because every word is here for the reading. Also, participants are hopefully more concise than they would be with a microphone in their hands. Blogs can be re-read and re-read. There in lies the issue - We must be careful what is written. Speculative conversation should be replaced with questions. I believe many people are doing the right thing by just asking questions and then someone "gets on it and investigates" so the results/truth can be revealed.

Isawit said...

What hypocrisy!! I have seen the "minor" renovations in the pastors office. The CC are the ones with the mis-information and they refuse to hear the truth. We must have this forum, so people can tell the truth without fear of more cover-up. Has anyone else seen the new revised pastors suite of offices?

Anonymous said...

Thanks Dreamwise for you words and I see no wrong in this blog. I was unsure earlier but this blog helps get the truth to all.

I just heard Deacon board member Mike Hobday is trying to join the Bellevue Staff. A BBC staff member told several this the other day. Hobday has been asking M.Dougharty to hire him for a paid staff position for years.

Can anyone tell me how we pick out who the church will hire? I know people i would like the Church to talk with.

WOUNDEDANDBLEEDING said...

Dear Ones, I greet you again in Jesus wonderful and holy name!

I went to a minister of the church today to get an answer on the Loyalty Letter presentation that was schelduled for tomorrow.

The minister told me he had no idea what I was talking about.

I explained it to him.

I asked him if he had concerns about anything at Bellevue.

He listed a long list of his services to Bellevue and quoted his years of membership to me.

He told me he was 100% behind pastor Steve Gaines because he is 100% behind Bellevue and so, he said he had no concerns at all.

He asked me what I was concerned about.

I only mentioned a couple of things before I started to cry.

I told him how this had been effecting me personally and let him know that I was in bed sick again today, exhausted from the battle.

I literally begged him "If you love Jesus, please go find out the truth.

What happened next, slayed me.

He started yelling at me saying

"THAT`S IT!!!"

"YOU HAVE SHOWN YOUR REAL HEART"

"YOU SAID I DON`T LOVE JESUS"

and no matter how much I pleaded that this was not what I meant at all, he just shouted over me with anger.

I was not saying that the minister did not love Jesus. I believed the best of him as a minister but he would not take my own explanation for my heart`s call to his for him to search for truth for the love of JESUS CHRIST.

I said to him "Please don`t do this to me"...

and he said:

"YOU`VE DONE IT TO YOURSELF!"

and he just Hung up.

I went to the church minister for answers and he slayed me.

I am left in my tears and my pain, while the minIster`s of Bellevue are victorious in trampling over me again.

If I should die before I wake, who will be called to do my funeral?

Please do not call Minister Long for he is the minister I talked with today.

Pray for me!

Under HIS wings and in HIS love,

Sister Pam

Anonymous said...

isawit,
I've never seen the new offices or the old ones, and where is the line to see? I heard at one of the meetings that lots of money has been spent remodeling the Pastors office. In the last 2 years over $200,000.00 was spent remodeling the pastors office. I agree we must have this blog to get the truth.

Karen said...

Mrs. Gremillion,

God Bless Your sweet heart! I am so sorry that happened to you. Please know you are in my prayers. Doyal Long had no call to treat you in that manner - the flesh side of me wants to go upside his head with a bat - but alas, I cannot. I cannot understand under what jurisdiction of God or Bellevue Baptist Church that would allow a minister to speak to a church member in this fashion. Something has to be done - by other than my above suggestion - does anyone have a cooler headed idea?

Karen

Anonymous said...

Woundedandbleeding,

My dear lady you are not alone in this battle. I will pray and I must call minster Long and maybe his first name is Doyle I think, and I will check.

Brother Long must answer must give an account of his actions and be reported. Did you mean he slammed the phone on you? Did he say good-by?

Anonymous said...

Karen,
If this account is right, this minster must resign.

Karen said...

staffhelp, I'm going over to the latest Deacon thread. There is a response from hiservant that mimics the mealy mouthed responses we've been getting all along. I posted the same response over there.

Isawit said...

staffhelp..
Sorry there is no line. Dr. Rogers was even locked out. Maybe the janitorial staff has access. It was a real fluke that I saw it a few weeks before SG came and then maybe a month or so after.

Before description.. Dr. Roger's office was nice with nice furnishings, much like you would have in a formal living area. It was connecting to the conference room that was used by the ministers for larger meetings. The conference room was very large. It had seating for maybe 20 people around a conference table. There was also 2 large seating areas with sofa and chairs. I would guess that room to be 20' X 40'.
Dr Rogers office was maybe 15'X 30'.

After Dr. Gaines
The office that Dr. Rogers had now has new furnishings..A large plasma
replaced the family portrait Dr. Rogers had. It is very nice but I would not consider it "minor" as the CC suggested. I doubt they even know. The biggest change is in what I guess they are calling the library.. It is the conference room! I was amazed that the office wasn't enough. This was anything but minor! I gasp with disbelief when I read the report of the CC.
I am sorry, but after knowing this, how could I believe any of their responses?

Karen said...

isawit,

Thank God for your 1st hand account. They truth cannot and will not be denied. I, for one, have never seen the office, Dr. Rogers or Dr. Gaines so I cannot personally comment.

The fact that you saw it for yourself and then you read the Communications Committee FAQ booklet shows how some people at Bellevue are speaking out of both sides of their mouths.

Karen

WOUNDEDANDBLEEDING said...

Karen and Staffhelp

The Minister did not say goodbye but he was angry so maybe he forgot telephone manners.

I am committed to love him but I am committed to be truthful as well and I will not stand away from either.

I have spoken truth.

Thank you for your loving concern.

Under HIS wings and in HIS love,

Sister Pam

Anonymous said...

I love it how all the ministers and staff are always attacking other people yet there is no concrete evidence supporting it.

Give us some proof, folks. I can easily make up some shocking stories about Bellevue ministers and post them.

I'm not saying your story is not true, I'm just saying it's not credible unless you present FACTS.

Isawit said...

Sister Pam and Brother Charles,
I do not know you, but you continue to minister to me. I just want you to know how much we love you guys! My family will be praying for your strength.

stillwaitingandwatching said...

Ace...

How can you "prove" a phone call happened? What more facts do you need??? The time of the call?? What phone carrier was used??? Was it a cell phone??? Was it a land line??? Was it a cordless??? Was it mounted to a wall?? C'mon....what "facts" are you looking for??? Why can't you just take the poor woman for her word and then seek out Doyal Long for HIM to give an account of what happened if you don't believe her. I am tired of this "show me the money" attitude....let's get real.

Anonymous said...

Stilwaiting,

My point exactly. You can't prove that the phone call actually occurred so you can't really count it as credible evidence for anything.

And who said I don't believe her? Please don't put words in my mouth.

And - on a another note - I work at Kroger and today when I was working the register, guess who came to my checkout line? It was Steve Gaines. And you won't believe this...he used the CHURCH credit card to pay for his groceries!!!

See how easy it is to create a story? I can't prove my story unless I show you the security camera footage, and until I do that, my information is still not credible. The same goes with the phone call.

stillwaitingandwatching said...

Ace,

There you go again...."Show me the money."

So, since a phone call cannot be proven, we are supposed to dismiss her suffering?? Do you think Doyal Long would actually admit to what he did to her if asked?? We have seen the horrible mistreatment of members of our church by leadership and ministers. Must I remind you of the suprising way Phil Weatherwax treated Josh Manning?

Stop with the where are the facts....that is getting old. You are starting to sound like hissecretsheepslayer.

Anonymous said...

ace said...
"I love it how all the ministers and staff are always attacking other people yet there is no concrete evidence supporting it."


You want evidence. Try the saving Bellevue website under decons responses

----- Original Message -----
From: mb20369@bxxxxxxxx
To: xxxxxxxx
Sent: Saturday, October 14, 2006 10:24 AM
Subject: Re: Phil Weatherwax-Josh Manning

Do you not copy me on your further emails mr and mrs gremillion. I told you earlier to stop emailing me and now you are harassing me. Continue, and I will take action against you.
michael blake

or this loving responseFrom:
Deacon DAVID L.WALKER

Papausm@xxxxx

To:gremillionp@xxxxxxxxxxx

Sent: Tuesday, October 10, 2006 10:33 AM

Subject: Re: LOVING CONCERNS FOR OUR CHURCH FAMILY AND THE BRIDE OF CHRIST

+I DON'T KOW WHO YOU ARE, BUT PLEASE DONT SEND ME ANY MORE OF YOUR MISGUIDED INFORMATION. YOU AND THE OTHERS WHO ARE SPREADING ALL THESE LIES ABOUT OUR PASTOR OUGHT TO ASHAME OF YOUR SELVES. I AM A DEACON AND HAVE BEEN FOR A LONG TIME. I DON'T KNOW OF ANY PROGRAM TO COME BEFORE THE DEACONS OR CHURCH APPOINTING YOU ARE MR. SHARPE THE AUTHORITY TO TRY TO REMOVE OUR PASTOR..IF GOD WANT HIM REMOVE HE WILL DO IT, NOT PEOPLE LIKE YOU. I ASKED DR. RODGERS AT ONE OUR OUR DEACONS MEETINGS WAS HE GOING TO BE PART OF THE PULPIT COMMITTEE,HE SAID NO BUT I WILL MAKE SURE THEY GET THE RIGHT PRESON. AND HE ALSO

SAID "THAT THERE WILL BE SOME ROGER PEOPLE THAT WONT LIKE THE CHANGE AND LEAVE.AND THE CURCH WILL BE BETTER OFF WITH OUT THEM. I DON'T THINK DR. RODGERS WHOULD HAVE WASHED DR. GAINES FEET BEFORE THE WHOLE CHURCH IF HE DIDN'T APPROVE OF HIM BECOMEING OUR PASTOR. SO IF YOU ARE SO UN HAPPY WHY DON'T DON'T YOU FIND YOURSELF ANOTHER CHURCH AND LEAVE MY CHURCH AND PASTOR ALONE




UNDER DR. GAINES THE CHURCH IS GROWING AND THE OFFERINGS IS 22%,HIGHER THAT LAST YEAR AT THIS TIME. BATISM ARE UP OVER LAST YEAR. REACHING LOST SOULS FOR CHRIST IS WHAT A PASTOOR IS SUPPOSE TO DO. AND HE IS DOING A GREAT WORK FOR THE LORD. I DON'T KNOW WHERE YOU ARE GETTING YOUR INFORMATION THAT THE CHURCH IS HURTIING. I GET THIS INFORMATION AT OUR DEACON MEETING EACH MONTH.MR.GREMILLION I WILL PRAY FOR FOR YOU AND FOR GOD TO OPEN YOURS EYES TO THE TRUTH SO YOU NOT TO GET CAUGHT UP IN SPREADING THESE LIES

DAVID L.WALKER
There are more letters that show LOVE and CONCERN from that page.
If this is not enough evidence for you.Why don't you suggest what will satify you.

New BBC Open Forum said...

ace,

Please either clearly state that you were making up the story about Steve Gaines in Kroger or delete it! I think you were just illustrating your point, but it wasn't completely clear. That's the way rumors get started, so please correct it.

Thank you,

NBBCOF

Anonymous said...

stillwaiting said:
"So, since a phone call cannot be proven, we are supposed to dismiss her suffering??

No, I never said that, nor did I imply it. I sympathize with Pam and I am grieving with her.

"Do you think Doyal Long would actually admit to what he did to her if asked??

I don't know. I've talked to Rev. Long before and I believe with all my heart if he truly did that, then he would admit to it and apologize. Ministers are sinners too, you know, they make mistakes just like everyone else in the world. They aren't...*gasp* perfect...

Must I remind you of the suprising way Phil Weatherwax treated Josh Manning?

How about the way Josh treated Phil? You see, this is a two-way street... and I have some emails from the people @ SB that are full of lies and attacks. Would you like for me to post them for the world to see to prove that their motives are wrong? I could, yes, but I don't work that way.

"Stop with the where are the facts....that is getting old."

Maybe once you present some facts then I won't have to ask for them anymore.

Anonymous said...

NBBCOP,

I apologize if there was any confusion in my post. I did not see Steve Gaines in Kroger. :)

Thanks, and sorry for any confusion!

Bin Wonderin said...

Ace is Mike Bratton. I quote thusly and like so:

My point exactly. You can't prove that the phone call actually occurred so you can't really count it as credible evidence for anything.

And who said I don't believe her? Please don't put words in my mouth.

And - on a another note - I work at Kroger and today when I was working the register, guess who came to my checkout line? It was Steve Gaines. And you won't believe this...he used the CHURCH credit card to pay for his groceries!!!

See how easy it is to create a story? I can't prove my story unless I show you the security camera footage, and until I do that, my information is still not credible. The same goes with the phone call.



1. Very sloppy logic - check
2. Strongly inferring Sister Pam is a liar and then denying he did any such thing - check
3. Wild made up over the top analogy that he thinks proves his point - check
4. Repeatedly partially quoting someone in italics then responding - check

Anonymous said...

Bin wondering,

Ace is Mike Bratton. I quote thusly and like so:

You're wrong. You now owe some people any apology...


1. Very sloppy logic - check


What? Because my story was simply it's sloppy? I'm making it VERY simple for people to understand so I don't have to repeat myself a bazillion times for a simple point.


2. Strongly inferring Sister Pam is a liar and then denying he did any such thing - check


I never inferred that. Read my first post. I specifically said, "I'm not saying your story is not true."

3. Wild made up over the top analogy that he thinks proves his point - check

Think as you like..


4. Repeatedly partially quoting someone in italics then responding - check


So is the italics feature reserved for only Mike Bratton? It is it trademarked? I apologize if I broke any laws for using it.

I'm not saying your story is not true

Karen said...

General to anyone,

Anybody notice there are a lot more people posting this weekend after the Communications Committe sent out their FAQ booklet? If you look around, seems more and more people are acknowleding their discontent with the pastor. There are some very interesting posts on the newest Deacon thread.

Just making an observation: Could it be the CC has "shot themselves in the foot" by putting out the book? Seems a lot of people are checking out the blogs and posting was they know. I know there are a couple of new BBC staffers around and of course Proverbs. Welcome to you all and keep bringing the truth into the light.

Karen

Bin Wonderin said...

Mike -
Demanding an apology from me is very Brattonesque. Post all you want to ace, I won't be reading it since I quit reading your stuff awhile back.

Anonymous said...

bin wonderin,

Mike -
Demanding an apology from me is very Brattonesque. Post all you want to ace, I won't be reading it since I quit reading your stuff awhile back.


Fine then. Think as you like, I can't stop you. What this just shows to me is that you can't admit you were wrong. Wait - maybe that's the whole issue at hand here: you can't admit some of the things you have said about BBC are wrong even when they were proven false. Hmm..

Anonymous said...

Sorry for the double post! My browser went ka-pooey on me.

Karen said...

ace - use the force - you have the power! Oh sorry, that krazy kool-aid kicked in again. You can delete your 2nd post by clicking on the little trash can.

Bin Wonderin said...

Fine then. Think as you like, I can't stop you. What this just shows to me is that you can't admit you were wrong. Wait - maybe that's the whole issue at hand here: you can't admit some of the things you have said about BBC are wrong even when they were proven false. Hmm..

Ace - I believe you and apologize. No one deserves to be unjustly accused of being Mike Bratton based only on circumstantial evidence such as eerily similar writing style. I take you at your word that you are not him and apologize. I apologize to Mike Bratton - wherever he is - for accusing him of using a false name to post.

Now maybe you owe me an apology. To my knowledge I have not posted anything about BBC that has proven to be wrong. If you can demonstrate otherwise I'll apologize for being wrong about that too.

Anonymous said...

I don't see a white trash can under my posts. I saw them when I previously posted on other blogspot blogs but not on this one.

Maybe that setting was turned off...

Karen said...

Ace,

Are you sure? I see a trash can on all my posts - maybe it's the krazy kool-aid!

:)

Anonymous said...

bin wondering,

Ace - I believe you and apologize.

Thank you, apology accepted.

Now maybe you owe me an apology. To my knowledge I have not posted anything about BBC that has proven to be wrong. If you can demonstrate otherwise I'll apologize for being wrong about that too.

I honestly do not have the time right now to go reread all of the topic here. As you know, there are tons of them with 300+ posts in some of them. So - since you took my word, I'm going to take your word on this. I apologize if my above statement is incorrect about you.

Anonymous said...

Karen,

I'm absolutely, positively sure! No trash can for me... Hmm, I wonder why.

Karen said...

ace,

do dee doo doo do dee doo doo

praying4ewe said...

Karen,

I was actually thinking the same thing about the CC shooting themselves in the foot. For those members who don't know anything about the blog, they do now. And if someone ask me not to go there, out of curiousity, I'm going there. Guess they didn't think that one all the way through.

Custos said...

Ace,

The way I treated Phil? Guess I should have just taken one for the team on that one. Oh, wait . . . ;-)

Wow. That's all I can say: Wow.

Amazed yet again,
Josh

Karen said...

Josh,

I thought about responding to that one on your behalf, but I figured you'd pop up eventually.

Karen

Custos said...

Thanks Karen. Good to know you've got my back. ;)

Anonymous said...

Josh,

So you would say you said absolutely nothing disrespectful to Rev. Phil in your email exchange?

Bin Wonderin said...

I apologize if my above statement is incorrect about you.

Thanks and peace out for the night. FWIW - there should be a little gray trash can icon below the time/date stamp, but on your posts only. Strange it is not there. Maybe it's a browser option setting thing. I'll ask Al Gore to look into it.

Anonymous said...

Ace

If you can lift one word to defend Phil Weatherwax, you then are defending what God abhords.
.
If you are here to defend a man who would reaches as low as hell itself to make his "with no apology" points, then you need some serious prayer.

Anonymous said...

My evening commentary...

The time of “Pastor led, deacon served, committee run and congregationally approved” is over. There simply is no longer enough evidence to validate it's existence. The model may be sound in principle but it is obviously not working now. I will leave the “why” to the past as we move forward.

The model was accepted by most. Until, the pastor became verbally aggressive and belittling (from the pulpit no less), and the deacons failed to demonstrate conviction and strength to act, and the committees were seen to be steered and manned by only a few in rotating and significant positions, and the congregation realized it's impotence and unimportance.

Further, poor decisions have been made and continue to be made; hurtful statements have been made and continue to be made; communication from the church is often not believed and in part because it has been one sided, slow, arrogant and murky.

The People have had little to do with starting or creating any of the problems that we are currently facing. They are merely reacting to them and doing their best to sort out the facts from fiction and respond scripturally.

The people are finding out about how things work, how money is being spent and who is really in charge and they are deciding that they don't agree with it. The errors have been many and significant, and there is logically no end in sight.

The People have moved past the time when they will sit quietly or applaud in unison.

The People have moved past the time when they will give without consideration.

The People have moved past the time when they will vote in unison.

The People are standing but they are not applauding; they are asking, evaluating, discussing, proving.

The People want to know what's going on, they want to be included in decisions that involve finances, personnel, and the way the organization runs.

The people are involved, vocal, convictional, and eager to see things set right again.

The People are eager to see change for the better.

Perhaps the old model worked well before – but welcome to a new era.

Steve, if you are going to pull this out of the ditch you must immediately put all your effort in being right before God, and His people. Prove nothing but your love for Jesus and His People. Walk in humility with them, surround yourself with lowly, humble people who will love you, nurture you, council with you and hold you accountable. Steve, you can do this. You and Jesus have what it takes. Lead us we are ready.


Your brother, Andrew.

Custos said...

Oh no you don't. You predicated this on "lies and attacks" and linked me to them (which is remarkably ironic since that's exactly what he did to me and exactly what I didn't do to him). I'm not letting you change the rules part way through: lies and attacks. He did both, I did neither--put down plain and straight. Done.

Now, if want to deal with respect or disrespect, I'll answer your question with an emphatic "no." I responded in a manner that both comports with Scripture and does him the true respect of being dealt with like a man, by a man.

Finally, your statement implies that you disapprove of those who lie, attack, and are disrespectful of others--nothing wrong with that. I would, however, ask if you have anything to say about Mr Weatherwax or are your critiques limited to my harmless, loveable self?

Anonymous said...

swordoftruth,

"If you can lift one word to defend Phil Weatherwax, you then are defending what God abhords."

So God hates every word that Rev. Phil wrote? I beg to differ.

If you are here to defend a man who would reaches as low as hell itself to make his "with no apology" points, then you need some serious prayer.

It seems to me like you're being a little too harsh. Nonetheless, I would welcome your prayers. They are always appreciated. I can't turn that offer down, can I? :)

New BBC Open Forum said...

ace wrote:

"NBBCOP,

I apologize if there was any confusion in my post. I did not see Steve Gaines in Kroger. :)

Thanks, and sorry for any confusion!"


Thank you for the clarification, ace! And I'm NBBCOF, not NBBCOP. I'm not a cop, although I seem to be playing one on the internet lately.

bin wonderin,

There's no way "ace" could be Mike Bratton. He admitted he was wrong (about something, I forget what), he apologized to both of us, and he smiled! See? -----> :)

Custos said...

I'm off to bed. Good-night, sweet prince(s and princesses), and flights of angels sing thee to thy rest.

Anonymous said...

Josh,

I'm not going to argue with you. Believe it or not, you're not as innocent as you think you are. I challenge you to go reread the entire email exchange and I ask you this again: is there any disrepect from your part? is there anything that could seem like an attack on your part? And I'm talking about anything. Even if it was just one sentence. I would love to post some quotes for you but 1) that would be too easy for you and, and 2) I have better things to do with my time. In the end you'll just just counter-argue with me and I'm sure you have better things you could be doing with your time, as well.

Finally, your statement implies that you disapprove of those who lie, attack, and are disrespectful of others--nothing wrong with that.

You are correct - I disapprove of sin.

I would, however, ask if you have anything to say about Mr Weatherwax or are your critiques limited to my harmless, loveable self?

I have talked to Rev. Phil about the emails and he apologized for the tone he used. He recognizes it was a sin. What else must he do? Again - ministers are not perfect - they sin too! Have you sinned today? I trust that you are not perfect so give him a break. Do you forgive Bro Phil?

Anonymous said...

NBBCOF,

There's no way "ace" could be Mike Bratton. He admitted he was wrong (about something, I forget what), he apologized to both of us, and he smiled!

I've seen Mike apologize before. Perhaps you aren't looking hard enough or ignoring him like most people here seem to do. :) :) :) <-- since you like it so much.

I'll even give you a bonus smilie featuring a wink: ;) Enjoy!

New BBC Open Forum said...

custos wrote:

"I would, however, ask if you have anything to say about Mr Weatherwax or are your critiques limited to my harmless, loveable self?"

Really, ace, custos is just a harmless, lovable little fuzzball of a sheep. ;-)

NASS

Anonymous said...

ace said--

"I have talked to Rev. Phil about the emails and he apologized for the tone he used. He recognizes it was a sin. What else must he do? Again - ministers are not perfect - they sin too! Have you sinned today? I trust that you are not perfect so give him a break. Do you forgive Bro Phil?"

Ace
Where is your prof of this apology from Mr.Weatherwax.May I have the proof please ,after all anyone can say anything.
I'm not saying your story is not true, I'm just saying it's not credible unless you present FACTS.

headoutofthesand said...

ace,

Ha! I'd love to see the proof of MB apologizing to anyone, but, even if you had it--it would be 1 out of the 100 times he has owed someone an apology.

Of course, I guess something is better than nothing...

Anonymous said...

dontbeatthesheep,

Where is your prof of this apology from Mr.Weatherwax.

Is an email message from him sufficient for you? If so, please send me your email address.

Custos said...

Turns out i'm not in bed. Got stuck in a delicate conversation justa fter I posted my goog night message. Anyway . . .

Ace,

I never claimed to be innocent. Oswald Chambers isn't a fan of innocene nor am I. I am a sinner. I've sinned in ways more terrible than you may be able to imagine. I have seen darkness.

You are right, I will counter argue with you because I'm right, blunt though that may be.

I've read and reread that letter so many times, I dont' need to go back. It was completely appropriate. I was not disrespectful--though I will not concede the moral highground that respect was requisite in that case.

I'm glad Mr Weatherwax apologized to you. But he hasn't apologized to me. I've said if he wants to meet to apologize I'd be willing. I didn't hear back from him.

Finally, you did not answer my question.

cjesusnme said...

You know, I hear a lot these days about apologies and my thoughts about them is this....

Are they heart felt, or happening because they got caught with their hand in the cookie jar? For those, I would rather they not apologize than for them to do it and not be truly heart felt! I am so tired of hearing of Deacons being Godly men and showing anger and hatred to people searching for the truth like Sister Pam. What a sad day it is that those men we trust to handle issues of our church act in such a manner. I think the communications committee needs to address these individuals serving as our deacons who can't speak about these matters in a civil way. I hurt terribly after reading Sister Pam's post and the Adhoc committee will answer that one, among others for me in the morning!

Anonymous said...

Josh,

You are right, I will counter argue with you because I'm right, blunt though that may be.
Stubborn too, eh? ;)

I'm glad Mr Weatherwax apologized to you. But he hasn't apologized to me.
Even if he hasn't apologized, do you forgive him for what he has done to you? Or would you if he asked?

Finally, you did not answer my question.

What was your question again?

Anonymous said...

ace said...
dontbeatthesheep,

"Where is your prof of this apology from Mr.Weatherwax.

Is an email message from him sufficient for you? If so, please send me your email address."

I've got a better idea.Post Mr.Weatherwax's apology to Josh on the blog .That way we all see that Mr.Weatherwax really did eat his words , but I have to ask this. If Phil W .wants to apologise to
Josh why did he not do so directly to him.

phil413 said...

Ace posted:
"I have talked to Rev. Phil about the emails and he apologized for the tone he used. He recognizes it was a sin".
I do not understand how a man can do another man wrong and apologize to someone not even associated with the deed in the first place. Is there some scripture to back this up? If I hit you in the mouth I don't think I owe an apology to my cousin in AL I would owe it to you.
Phil. 4:13
I may have used a bad hypothetical there, I promise I would not hit you in the mouth.

dewaynehartsoe said...

I keep hearing that some of the ministers have apologized for their actions, but I have not heard them admit their sin and ask forgiveness.

My bible tells me that "If my brother has ought against me that I need to make amends with my brother so that my fellowship with God is not hindered."

Do we want anyone preaching, teaching, or leading us in any way whose fellowship with God is broken?

Anonymous said...

He didn't apologize to Josh by apologizing to me. It's not like he said, "Ace, Tell Josh I am sorry if I offended him."

dontbeatthesheep, as much as I would love to post it here, I am going to deny that request. If you want it, give me an email address. It was a private conversation and as far as I am concerned, it will stay that way. I hope you will respect my wishes, thank you.

Anonymous said...

Ace said--

"dontbeatthesheep, as much as I would love to post it here, I am going to deny that request. If you want it, give me an email address. It was a private conversation and as far as I am concerned, it will stay that way. I hope you will respect my wishes, thank you. "

Ace
Do you think Phil W. will appreciate you sharing a private E-mail with a third party and why not put it in the open because that is exactly what I will do.

Custos said...

Ace,

Stubborn? Oh, I definitely can be, but it ususally takes me being absolutely convinced of something. It's kinda like loyalty--cuts both ways, and so it's worth keeping a close eye on.

I do forgive him. It would be nice if he would apologize to me and not to other people I don't know.

My question was as follows:

"Finally, your statement implies that you disapprove of those who lie, attack, and are disrespectful of others--nothing wrong with that. I would, however, ask if you have anything to say about Mr Weatherwax or are your critiques limited to my harmless, loveable self?"

Anonymous said...

ace said...

It was a private conversation and as far as I am concerned, it will stay that way. I hope you will respect my wishes,

WISDOM, surely you jest sir!

There is no wisdom in taking a private communication and handing it over to who knows who????? What wisdom is this may I ask?

I think you age is showing.

I would say a your are under 21 and over 12.

I charge you to go to Phil Weatherwax and tell him that you taking private communcations of his and giving them out like peppermints on Christmas morning.

See how I care for you?

Anonymous said...

dontbeatasheep,

Do you think Phil W. will appreciate you sharing a private E-mail with a third party and why not put it in the open because that is exactly what I will do.

I just don't work this way, sorry. Again, I would love to post it publicly, but I wouldn't feel right doing so. Not because of anything in the email, but because it was private...meant to be conversation between him and me only. I hope you understand where I'm coming from.

----

Josh,

Thanks. I thought I answered that question. I mentioned that "he recognizes it was a sin." By posting that, I thought you would know that I view it as a sin too.

---
swordoftruth,

There is no wisdom in taking a private communication and handing it over to who knows who????? What wisdom is this may I ask?
Personal preference, that is all. I didn't say any wisdom was involved.

I would say a your are under 21 and over 12.
And my age is important..because..?

I charge you to go to Phil Weatherwax and tell him that you taking private communcations of his and giving them out like peppermints on Christmas morning.

No, thanks. Again, I people will respect my wishes. I am not going to post the email for anyone to see. End of discussion...don't ask again...please.

Anonymous said...

ROPE A DOPE ALERT

ace remarked:

dontbeatthesheep, as much as I would love to post it here, I am going to deny that request. If you want it, give me an email address

Then swordoftruth said:

There is no wisdom in taking a private communication and handing it over to who knows who????? What wisdom is this may I ask?
Personal preference, that is all. I didn't say any wisdom was involved.

I would say a your are under 21 and over 12.
And my age is important..because..?

I charge you to go to Phil Weatherwax and tell him that you taking private communcations of his and giving them out like peppermints on Christmas morning.

Then Ace remarked:

No, thanks. Again, I people will respect my wishes. I am not going to post the email for anyone to see. End of discussion...don't ask again...please.

This is classic Rope a Dope posting.

Anonymous said...

Ace said--I just don't work this way, sorry. Again, I would love to post it publicly, but I wouldn't feel right doing so. Not because of anything in the email, but because it was private...meant to be conversation between him and me only. I hope you understand where I'm coming from.

Ace
I'm confused. You do not want to post Phil W's apology on the blog to protect his privacy,but you are willing to send it to me and voliate the very privacy that you want to perserve.Will someone explain the logic of this to me.

Anonymous said...

dontbeatthesheep,

I'm confused. You do not want to post Phil W's apology on the blog to protect his privacy,but you are willing to send it to me and voliate the very privacy that you want to perserve.Will someone explain the logic of this to me.

I offered to show you the email as proof. You denied my offer. There is a big difference between letting one person validate my claims by seeing the email than letting the entire world see it.

Anonymous said...

ace said...
I offered to show you the email as proof. You denied my offer. There is a big difference between letting one person validate my claims by seeing the email than letting the entire world see it.

REPLY:

Young man, there certainly is not!

Don`t you dare muddy the definition of private communications open to being offered to strangers by e-mail.

Let use some wisdom here please.

I will be more than happy to take this up with Phil weatherwax and we will see if he agrees with you even offering his letter to someone you don`t even know.

Anonymous said...

Ace said again--I offered to show you the email as proof. You denied my offer. There is a big difference between letting one person validate my claims by seeing the email than letting the entire world see it.

12:55 AM, November 19, 2006

Ace
For the last time-do-you-realize-that-by-sending-a- private-e-mail-to-a-third-party-that-in-fact-you-have-indeed-violated-the-privacy-of-the-person-that-sent-you-that-e-mail-in-this-case-Phil W. Since-you-fail-to-understand-this-simple-concept-ask-PhilW-to-explain-it-to-you-because-I-give-up.Keep your apology and hang it on the wall.

Anonymous said...

Don`t you dare muddy the definition of private communications open to being offered to strangers by e-mail.

So are you agreeing that it is indeed private communication? If so, why were you urging me to post it earlier? Then, once again, I stand corrected. I offered proof, was denied, and so I did my part. You can't claim I don't have proof of his apology now, which is what this is all about...I can't believe I spent so much time on this issue...


I will be more than happy to take this up with Phil weatherwax and we will see if he agrees with you even offering his letter to someone you don`t even know.


Be my guest.

Anonymous said...

For the last time-do-you-realize-that-by-sending-a- private-e-mail-to-a-third-party-that-in-fact-you-have-indeed-violated-the-privacy-of-the-person-that-sent-you-that-e-mail-in-this-case-Phil W. Since-you-fail-to-understand-this-simple-concept-ask-PhilW-to-explain-it-to-you-because-I-give-up.Keep your apology and hang it on the wall.

So I see that you're admitting posting private emails violate the privacy of people? And what exactly has Josh done with private emails? Go take a look at his blog. Why are people critizing me when I may make a simple mistake (which, btw, I didn't violate his privacy) but praising Josh when he does violate the privacy of others by posting emails from many people?

It just doesn't make sense..

Anonymous said...

ace said...
Don`t you dare muddy the definition of private communications open to being offered to strangers by e-mail.

So are you agreeing that it is indeed private communication? If so, why were you urging me to post it earlier? Then, once again, I stand corrected. I offered proof, was denied, and so I did my part. You can't claim I don't have proof of his apology now, which is what this is all about...I can't believe I spent so much time on this issue...

REPLY:

Sir, I have never asked to post or send anything to the list or beyond.

You said it was private.

I agree that it is

You said you would send it to dontbearupthesheep and I caoutioned you not to do so.

I think you have your posts and ours confused.

Maybe you need some sleep?

Anonymous said...

dqotlgvwswordoftruth,

As per your 12:14 AM post, I thought you were urging me to share it with everyone. I'm sorry if I misinterperated your message. Thank you for the clarification.

Anonymous said...

ace said...
but praising Josh when he does violate the privacy of others by posting emails from many people?

Go read the letter from Phil Weatherwax to Josh agian and you will have your answer.

Phil Weatherwax gave his permission for the letter to be reprinted as long as the entire letter was published.

Anonymous said...

Ace remarked:
As per your 12:14 AM post, I thought you were urging me to share it with everyone. I'm sorry if I misinterperated your message. Thank you for the clarification.

That`s ok, have a good night of rest.

Anonymous said...

swordoftruth,

Yes, I saw that, but I'm not talking about that email. There are other emails on his blog. One from Chuck Taylor, for instance.

I remember reading a month or two ago that Chuck was disappointed he posted the email without permission.

Anonymous said...

That`s ok, have a good night of rest.

Thanks, I'll be heading off in a few minutes. I hope you have a great night, as well. And if there is any doubt, I love you bro! (or sis!)

stillwaitingandwatching said...

ace...

You said: "Why are people critizing me when I may make a simple mistake (which, btw, I didn't violate his privacy) but praising Josh when he does violate the privacy of others by posting emails from many people?"

Go back and read the email exchange. Perhaps you have forgotten that Phil W. told Josh he could post it, but just to make sure it was in it's entirety.

Also, Phil has no business apologizing to you for his treatment of Josh. Surely Josh has forgiven Phil, however, Phil will not recieve the forgiveness unless he asks for it from Josh.

stillwaitingandwatching said...

Thanks, sword...we were thinking the same thing. I was typing at the same time.

Boy, that makes me feel GREAT to know I am on the same wavelength as such a wise person! :)

Anonymous said...

Oh, by the way, the posts I'm talking about can be found on his blog dating from late August to early September.

Custos said...

Well, this is fun. We're on from me attacking and lying to me publishing private emails that were never marked or agreed to be private.

So, i'll say again what I said to Mr X on my blog:

Dear Mr X,

"I have not attacked the church. I asked the [name of Mr X's position in the leadership] questions on his view of spiritual leadership, followership, and the pastor’s vision of the church.

"I wrote my opinion on your responses and decided to post that. Surely you wouldn’t fault me for sharing my thoughts on our conversation.

"But I posted the emails in their entirety to show the context of everything we both said. I did not want anyone thinking I took you out of context in my opinion piece. I believe posting the emails provided you with as much protection as it did me.

"I assumed you would realize I was asking for your opinion as a spiritual leader, [office again], and pastor search committee member—after all, we have never spoken nor met to my knowledge so I would have no other reason to contact you specifically. I believe nearly anyone would think a random email asking for a personal, not leadership, opinion would be awkward and out of sorts. I can’t imagine that you’re not aware that the emails you’ve been getting from other people are coming to you because of chance and not because of the positions you hold in our church.

. . .

"I truly don’t understand how my repeating what you said is in any way divisive. Did you expect me not to tell anyone the contents of our correspondence? If that was the case, I truly didn’t know because I generally expect that emails I send out may be discussed among others. I would certainly not have minded if you had made my emails available to the public even without my permission and without your replies. In fact, if you’re willing, I would ask you to forward my emails to the entire deacon body and Bellevue ministerial staff at your earliest convenience. If you want to include your own analysis of them, please feel free to.

"Would you have said anything differently knowing that the emails would be posted?



"I regret we have come to this,

"Sincerely,

"Josh Manning"


Again, those emails were never in any way, shape, or form implied or said to be private. I asked an official at the church for his position on some very, very basic issues:

"1) His opinion, biblically, of the way in which part of a congregation should proceed when it believes its leadership may be errant. 2) How he believed, again biblically, a church administration and deacon body should respond to congregants who ask for transparency, accountability, and real story behind so many whispered worries. 3) The specifics of the pastor’s ultimate vision for our precious church?"

Custos said...

Ace is right, and everyone should take a look.

Though Ace's pointing people in the direction of a site containing something he seems to deem as wrong is puzzling.

Anonymous said...

Go back and read the email exchange. Perhaps you have forgotten that Phil W. told Josh he could post it, but just to make sure it was in it's entirety.

See my recent posts, I'm not talking about that email.

Also, Phil has no business apologizing to you for his treatment of Josh.

Again, I disagree. Did Rev. Phil's email hurt his testimony? Yes, probably so...which would probably hurt other Christan's testimony's as well...if that makes sense... if I cuss you out on these forums, not only should I apologize to you, but I should apologize to everyone else for my non-Christian attitude because I have hurt the name of Christians.

Custos said...

Now dear friends, I am off to bed.

Anonymous said...

Josh,

Though Ace's pointing people in the direction of a site containing something he seems to deem as wrong is puzzling.

Just because I think something is wrong doesn't mean I won't talk about it. Cheesy analogy: sin is wrong, yet I talk about it. I know, very very cheap...but it's late, give me a break!

Anonymous said...

Goodnight Josh!

Custos said...

Arg, one more: Ace makes a very good case for these Sheep Beaters to actually apologize to the beaten sheep and to do so in public.

Ace and everybody else, I'll probably not be around tomorrow and possibly through Tuesday.

Now, to bed with me!

Custos said...

Agreed--we both need a break! G'night Ace.

Custos said...

And "G'night Ace" has to be the cheesiest line yet uttered at this blog.

stillwaitingandwatching said...

Ace...

Your missing the point. He has not apologized to Josh. Remember he signed his email "with no apologies." So, what do you make of that??? He is sorry for hurting his testimony to you but not to Josh! That, my friend, is priceless.

Now, I am off to bed....take your time responding. I wont be on until late tomorrow. G'night!

stillwaitingandwatching said...

Night Josh. You will be missed while your gone!

Anonymous said...

Your missing the point. He has not apologized to Josh. Remember he signed his email "with no apologies." So, what do you make of that??? He is sorry for hurting his testimony to you but not to Josh! That, my friend, is priceless.

Can you not accept anything I say without arguing back? I honestly feel like you know what I'm trying to say and that you're just trying to give me a hard time. I cannot speak anything else for Bro. Phil. If you've got any problems with him, take it up with him, not me! I forgot what even started this... somebody said that he hasn't apologized to anyone? Well I was just saying that he indeed has. Maybe not to all the people who deserve one, but he really is sorry for his actions.

Anonymous said...

Ace

I agree that Phil Weatherwax
owes anyone who was harmed by his letter to Josh, an apology and that could include you or his class, ect.

I do not agree that Phil Weatherwax can apologze through you to anyone else.

Go tell your mentor to show you how to do the right thing by humbling himself and apologizing to Josh Manning before the NAACP gets their investigation cranked up.

Anonymous said...

I'm going to bed. Gotta get ready for worship in the morning at the great BBC! :-) Goodnight anyone who may see this.

Anonymous said...

stillwaitingandwatching said...
also Phil has no business apologizing to you for his treatment of Josh.
ace said--
Again, I disagree. Did Rev. Phil's email hurt his testimony? Yes, probably so...which would probably hurt other Christan's testimony's as well...

Ok so if Phil W is so repentant how come he has not apologized to Josh and by extension of your logic to the entire church??????

The battery on my laptop is going down and I need to recharge them,and I'm too tired to move this old body to the desktop.See all of you tomorrow.

Anonymous said...

I do not agree that Phil Weatherwax can apologze through you to anyone else.

I never said he could. :-) All my point was, was that he is sorry and he has shown it to me. If others want more information, you'll have to seek it yourself.

Anonymous said...

dontbeatthesheep,

Ok so if Phil W is so repentant how come he has not apologized to Josh and by extension of your logic to the entire church??????

I am not Rev. Phil, therefore I do not know the answer to your question. Why don't you shoot him off an email and ask him yourself? Or give him a call? He'll be able to help you more than I possibly can.

Anonymous said...

Andrew- Thanks for your 10:45 PM post last night. Sorry I am just now commenting on it but as I read your thoughts I was reminded of the example from our own denomination. If we don't like the direction we're heading, why not do what the SBC did 25 years ago? We didn't like the direction we were heading theologically and became the only denomination in modern history to turn itself around and change its theological direction. By voting people onto committees (are you listenng deacons?) and changing our structure, we can be the church we once were. I know that our problems as a church are primarily spiritual, not structural, but if Bellevue is truly run by the same handful of people who rotate on and off "power committees" involving money and personnel, then structural change is needed.

By the way, who was it in 1979 who shocked the SBC by winning the presidency? Who was the first figurehead along with Criswell, Patterson, Pressler, and others who, with a sweet spirit, changed the SBC structure and led us back to truth? You know the answer- Dr. Adrain P. Rogers.

Karen said...

Did anyone attend the Communcations Meeting this morning? I stuck my head in the room, but didn't stay. Looked like the committee members (I couldn't see how many, but I did see Harry Smith) were sitting facing the audience of about 50 or so people. Sure beats the 6 or so that I saw last week! :)

Truth is coming into the light! Praise the Lord!

Karen

Anonymous said...

QUESTION:

Did Harry Smith receive a private letter from the Whitmire`s laying out their personal devastation over the treatment of Dr. James Whitmire?

Did Harry Smith take the private letter from the Whitmire`s to other staff memebers at Bellevue?

Did Harry Smith disrespect the private communication that the Whitmires addressed to him and him alone?

Did Pastor Steve Gaines receive a copy of the Whitmier`s letter to Harry Smith?

Did Pastor Steve Gaines get angry about a letter to Harry Smith from the Whitmire`s?

Did Pastor Steve consistantly glare in anger at the Whitmire`s during Dr. Adrian Roger`s funeral?

Did Pastor Steve Gaines call the Whitmire`s into his office the day of Dr. Adrian Roger`s funeral to confront them on the private letter they wrote to Harry Smith?

Is Harry Smith still a friend of the Whitmire`s?

Is Harry Smith a man anyone can trust?

Is Harry Smith on the Commication Committee?

New BBC Open Forum said...

uturn,

Please e-mail me at the address in the profile.

Thanks,

NBBCOF

Bin Wonderin said...

Fixed typos and reposted.
Friends. I have an idea. Maybe it is a bad idea. I am not in possession of the skills and equipment to pull it off. Please give me you honest thoughts.

Would someone go to the Communication Committee with a video camera and ask the questions we post and agree upon. We can together come up with a good list. Not gossip, just straight questions about $25k gifts, cheerleader tickets, whatever is appropriate. Legitimate concerns we al have. Perhaps an attorney or business man with a graceful demeanor not afraid of crowds and hostility from a witness who is quick on his feet can be our ambassador. Place the video of the Q&A on YouTube for all of us to see. Let the truth of the Q&A be seen by all. There is no need to keep the deeds and answers of the committee in darkness.

This is our only forum for Q&A since we will not get a business meeting. Let's use it.

Bin Wonderin said...

If not a video, then maybe a typed transcript?

MOM4 said...

bin wonderin,
That is an excellent idea, however, SG has but the entire security department on "salary" and he frequently calls them in whenever he wants (that way he can use the security guards as much as he deems necessary and does not have to pay them OT anymore). He had everyone on staff there at the 9/24 meeting.
I am sure that they would be there with instructions to "remove" anyone who attempts to video the session. If they fail, they could loose their jobs. Sickening thought, isn't it.

Anonymous said...

For Bellevue to be healed, Brother Steve will have to leave or show us another side of him so he can be accepted by all the members. Some say he is showing change in recent meetings with staff and Deacons. If he truly, in his heart, feels the need to change, he must say so from the pulpit. If he does not see a need for change or apology, he should tell us that also. He has caused a lot of hurt and division among the brethern.

For me to give advice here would be like joining a gun fight with boxing gloves and I didn’t just fall off the cabbage truck..amen? but I do want to leave you with a thought.

Everyone here comes down on one side or another. I’ve told you what I and many other seniors feel and I don’t plan to stay around and try to say it again a thousand ways.

No doubt, all who have written here have a certain outcome in mind for our church. Please, in love, examine your strategy. So far, these blogs have been the only medium for members to let other members hear their hearts.

If your words here are meant to influence the final outcome that you desire, doesn’t it make sense to only say and do the things that will cause the broader congregation to join with you, sit with you, stand with you and speak with one voice. This blog is not a voting place but making it a little friendlier could certainly cause more members like me to come here, not in debate, but simply express our core desires for the church.

It is impossible for many to express their position in a place like this and not feel that they have associated themselves with every thing else that has been said. If we could just let what we say here be directed to the church at large and not to the last person who said something we disagree with. I have not found one single case where anyone has convinced anyone of anything.

It’s OK if you don’t agree but unless you enjoy a one sided argument, don’t bother. God bless and much love to all my brothers and sisters in Jesus.

Anonymous said...

Wise words senior.member

Thank you for your influence.


Andrew

Anonymous said...

Let me begin by telling you that I am not part of the “inner circle” of the good ole’ boys network, but assure that it does exist within the deacon body. I am not at liberty at the moment to divulge a tremendous amount of information, nor do I have a tremendous amount of information, but I did want you all to know that there is a growing concern among the outer circle. We have been given very limited, meaningful details. Obtaining any further details has been rather difficult and is being met with the same stonewall tactics within the deacon fellowship as it has to members of the congregation. Those of us with serious concerns are at risk of being removed from the list of active deacons for even attempting to gather additional details and information. Please, please pray for us as we are doing our dead level best to get to the root of our problems and determine the best direction that we can go from here.

I have kept up with this blog from the first moment that I knew of its existence. I have since been made aware that there are many of my brothers doing so as well, some that have concerns as deep as mine and others that are part of the good ole’ boys network.

I must let you know that among the good ole’ boys network there has been a well thought out plan to enter and post on the blog in an effort to create further confusion. I believe that someone has been referred to on the blog as rope-a-dope and it is a phrase that I had already heard before I began seeing it on the blog. I state this to issue a warning to the posters on the blog to beware of traps that are being set. I would refer to those that are engaged in this activity as wolves in sheep’s clothing.

To the administrator of this blog:
I want to personally thank you for the time and effort that you have put into maintain it. There have been questions raised here that have been kept from the deacon body at large and without seeing it here we would be in darkness. I commend you and a job well done.

To Custos:
We will inevitably owe a debt of gratitude to you for your persistence and helping these issues to be brought to light. I cannot apologize to you in behalf of Phil Weatherwax that is something that he must do for himself. I can offer an apology from myself and several other members of the deacon body that were in darkness concerning these issues.

To Derrick Calcoate:
I appreciate your enthusiasm to inform the readers of this blog, but you are being used as a pawn and should begin questioning the validity of the facts and verifying them before you chose to post them as fact. I think the world of you my brother, but you must by now realize that at least some of what we have been told is far from the truth.

To Mr. and Mrs. Gremillion:
The responses that you have received have been unwarranted and unkind. There is a day of recognizing that will come. Some of us are committed to bringing about that day, but if we are not able, it will be on the Day of the Lord. Bless you both and I offer my deepest sympathy for the pain and hurt that has been caused you.

To Hisservent(s):
I am reminded of Jesus when he met the woman at the well. He asked her to go and return with her husband, to which she replied that she had no husband. Jesus commended her and told that she spoke well for she had five husbands and the man that she was with now was not even her husband. You have spoke well in neither identifying yourself as deacon or staff or layman. I am aware and feel that is my obligation to reveal that you are not one, but at least two and perhaps more. Of two I am certain, because your evil plans to create further confusion have been revealed to me by your own admission. I would advise those that post on this blog to have no confidence in the post that are offered by this individual. I believe earlier that I had referred to them as wolves in sheep’s clothing.

Concerning the Communication Committee:
I would encourage each of you to at the very least to attend the meetings to address the communication committee. Even if you do not ask questions your presence will make our job much easier. I will caution that the group is largely composed of some of the “inner circle” good ole’ boys network, but by attending you will be turning up the heat on the issues and it will be most beneficial to our cause.

Finally, I would like to be able to answer the numerous questions that you may have of me, but at this time it would not be prudent to do so because it would hinder our efforts. Those of us that have met had wanted to wait until such a time that we could act decisively, but I felt an obligation to let the membership that were actively reading these posts know that we were working and will continue.

Please continue the good work. It would be impossible for us to know all of the issues that there are in the absence of this blog.

john 16:33 said...

deacon thats a beacon

Thank you.

Anonymous said...

deacon_thats_a_beacon

We love you sir and are indebted to you.

Andrew

Karen said...

Deacon Beacon - you made my cry today. Just to know that we're not crazy, rabble rowzing dissidents makes this struggle worthwhile. Thank you for your struggle and your hard work! Thank for your discernment in knowing that "something is rotten in Denmark". God bless you and keep you and may we all remember we are one in the bond of love.

Keep the good fight! Karen

Bin Wonderin said...

deacon beacon

I was trying to remain positive but deep down I was losing hope. This donation to FUMC and the report from the communication committee was wearing on me.

Thanx for the post and I will pray for you and your fellow truth seekers right now.

WOUNDEDANDBLEEDING said...

To Karen and Bin Wonderin, dear brethren in Jesus.

I wish I could hold you hand and kiss your tears away.

I understand how you feel.

When we take a stand for Truth as it is defined by the WORD of GOD, and our Spiritual Leaders try to convince us that we are doing satan`s work instead of CHRIST`s, it is nothing less than SPIRITUAL RAPE and this is exactually the way I feel in the depths of my heart and soul.

I care deeply for you and appreciate your stand for JESUS!!!

Hugs to you both.

Under HIS wings and in HIS love,
Sister Pam

Derrick Calcote said...

"DeaconWhoisaBeacon" said: "I think the world of you my brother"

If this is in fact true, please give me a call or drop me an e.mail.

My e.mail is dcalcote@msn.com.

You can get my phone number from the deacon directory, or by calling information.

Karen said...

Sister Pam,

Because I am so interested in you and your ministry, I GOOGLED you! Your song is so beautiful (have your written a lot of them) and I'd like to know more. Would you please email NASS and get my email address?

Thanks! Karen

Custos said...

Dear Deacon that's a Beacon,

Thank you sir, for your kind words. And thank you more for doing what you can from the inside. I don't envy your position, but I am thankful that you and so many likeminded others occupy that now very sensative office of deacon. You'll be in my prayers.

Best,
Josh

stillwaitingandwatching said...

PRAISE THE LORD FOR DEACON THAT'S A BEACON!!! (applause) We are so proud of you and the others that are seeking the truth!! I will pray for you and your families during this most troublesome time in our church. Thank you for being the men of God that He has called you to be and to serve our church. This time in our church is something no BBC deacon has ever seen. Thank you for not waivering! Thank you for coming here to let us know that not all deacons want us to go somewhere else, or are like Deacon Calcote (bless his heart) who comes here and professes to be a minister for reconciliation and yet posts the things he posts to Mike Bratton's blog....Calcote, you've lost all credibility with me for doing that. Thank you for not being a yes man!!!

allofgrace said...

deacon_that's_a_beacon,
Brother if you're for real, speaking for me, I'm behind you 100%. I've tried to think the best in all this, but the 25,000 to FUMC sealed it for me, and confirmed my worst fears about the direction of our church. Keep fighting the good fight, you have many allies. Blessings.

stillwaitingandwatching said...

Here's a question...I know that the CC was set up to answer our questions, but beyond that, what's its purpose??? I mean, how long are they going to sit around and ask questions?? What will be the end result??? It is clear that we want more than our questions answered. I am at the point to where I want heads to roll (not literally of course) but whoever came up with the bright idea for the $25,000 needs to be gone! Whoever was on the committee that approved the money, needs to be gone! Whoever's idea it was to do to Dr. Whitmire what they did....needs to be gone!!! I think you get my point....I could go on and on....Our church needs an EXTREME MAKEOVER immediately!

Anonymous said...

stillwaitingandwatching--said

I am at the point to where I want heads to roll (not literally of course) but whoever came up with the bright idea for the $25,000 needs to be gone! Whoever was on the committee that approved the money, needs to be gone! Whoever's idea it was to do to Dr. Whitmire what they did....needs to be gone!!! I think you get my point....I could go on and on....Our church needs an EXTREME MAKEOVER immediately!

6:57 PM, November 19, 2006


Amen to that,well maybe I need to hold off on the Amens until SG leaves.

Anonymous said...

deacon_thats_a_beacon said...
Let me begin by telling you that I am not part of the “inner circle” of the good ole’ boys network, but assure that it does exist within the deacon body. I am not at liberty at the moment to divulge a tremendous amount of information, nor do I have a tremendous amount of information,


Then what brings you around?

but I did want you all to know that there is a growing concern among the outer circle. We have been given very limited, meaningful details.

And, if I may, you give so little in "meaningful details" that you do not even give your name. Now that would be a meaningful detail.

Obtaining any further details has been rather difficult and is being met with the same stonewall tactics within the deacon fellowship as it has to members of the congregation.

I really need to understand how forming a Communication Committee, camping out every Sunday morning to respond to any question posed, and addressing issues that should never have been publicized outside the church body qualifies as "stonewalling."

Seriously. If you're going to whip out Watergate terminology, whoever you are, what are your reasons for using it?

Those of us with serious concerns are at risk of being removed from the list of active deacons for even attempting to gather additional details and information.

Is that the only reason those of you are at risk?

Please, please pray for us as we are doing our dead level best to get to the root of our problems and determine the best direction that we can go from here.

Well, there's a handful of people who have a direction for you--Steve Gaines' career on a platter.

Are you open to another direction being considered "best"?

I have kept up with this blog from the first moment that I knew of its existence. I have since been made aware that there are many of my brothers doing so as well, some that have concerns as deep as mine and others that are part of the good ole’ boys network.

"My brothers"?

Could you explain that particular term? It sounds like a subdivision, but I can see where that might not be the case. Any amplification you could provide would be welcome.

I must let you know that among the good ole’ boys network there has been a well thought out plan to enter and post on the blog in an effort to create further confusion.

Such as the discussion regarding what kind of protest those who call this forum and/or savingbellevue.com "home base" should orchestrate in a worship service? Or something less dramatic?

I believe that someone has been referred to on the blog as rope-a-dope and it is a phrase that I had already heard before I began seeing it on the blog.

Yes, indeed. {Howard Cosell} Muhammad Ali. George Foreman. Kinshasha, Zaire, October 30th, 1974. An eighth-round knockout delivered by the former heavyweight champion, Muhammad Ali, stunned the boxing world! George Foreman, the aggressive reigning champion, punched himself out trying to penetrate the defensive machinations of the crafty Ali. {/Howard Cosell}

I state this to issue a warning to the posters on the blog to beware of traps that are being set. I would refer to those that are engaged in this activity as wolves in sheep’s clothing.

Hmmm. Wouldn't it be clever to present oneself as an oxymoronic "dissident deacon," warning the Forum/SB group of danger and thereby gaining their trust? Why, one might learn the secret handshake and get invited to the double-secret midnight conclaves, all the while being one of those crafty trap-setters!

But I digress...

To the administrator of this blog:
I want to personally thank you for the time and effort that you have put into maintain it. There have been questions raised here that have been kept from the deacon body at large


Since the deacon body at large is still communicating how? By telegraph? Semaphore? Pony Express?

and without seeing it here we would be in darkness.

Wow. Very dramatic.

I commend you and a job well done.

Problem is, what is the "job" that is being done so well?

To Custos:
We will inevitably owe a debt of gratitude to you for your persistence and helping these issues to be brought to light. I cannot apologize to you in behalf of Phil Weatherwax that is something that he must do for himself.


Perhaps I'm missing something, but didn't Mr. Weatherwax already apologize? Not to say that he needed to, but I do remember reading something awhile back...

I can offer an apology from myself and several other members of the deacon body that were in darkness concerning these issues.

Since you have chosen to remain anonymous, aren't you still operating in darkness? Or, should I say "from" darkness?

To Derrick Calcoate:
I appreciate your enthusiasm to inform the readers of this blog, but you are being used as a pawn and should begin questioning the validity of the facts and verifying them before you chose to post them as fact.


You know, I've noticed something about Derrick lately--he reacts very violently whenever someone says the words "cleaning woman." You don't think he could be operating under some post-hypnotic suggestion, do you?

I think the world of you my brother,

Not enough to refrain from disparaging him, though...

but you must by now realize that at least some of what we have been told is far from the truth.

Such as?

Mr. and Mrs. Gremillion:
The responses that you have received have been unwarranted and unkind. There is a day of recognizing that will come. Some of us are committed to bringing about that day, but if we are not able, it will be on the Day of the Lord. Bless you both and I offer my deepest sympathy for the pain and hurt that has been caused you.


Marvelous sentiment. Does it extend to the staff and lay leadership as well?

Hisservent(s):
I am reminded of Jesus when he met the woman at the well. He asked her to go and return with her husband, to which she replied that she had no husband. Jesus commended her and told that she spoke well for she had five husbands and the man that she was with now was not even her husband. You have spoke well in neither identifying yourself as deacon or staff or layman. I am aware and feel that is my obligation to reveal that you are not one, but at least two and perhaps more.


Fascinating. Plan to reveal anything about yourself, or is that not part of your "obligation"?

And while I'm on the subject: Whatever your affiliation, whatever your mindset, please sign your real names to your posts, re-register under your real name, or don't post.

For all the calls for a business meeting, the anonymity enjoyed here wouldn't be afforded in a genuine business meeting. Perhaps the first step toward seeing a business meeting called is displaying how you would behave in a business meeting?

Of two I am certain, because your evil plans to create further confusion

I mean, honestly.

Does "hisservant" wear a black cape? Twirl his mustache? Hold his pinky to his mouth and threaten "confusion" unless he's paid {Dr. Evil}"the sum of... one million dollars"{/Dr. Evil}?

Seriously... "eeeeeeeevil plans"?

have been revealed to me by your own admission.

Then reveal them to everyone else, since your intellgence work has reaped such rewards.

I would advise those that post on this blog to have no confidence in the post that are offered by this individual. I believe earlier that I had referred to them as wolves in sheep’s clothing.

Yes, that's true. So, again you can't disagree with someone, but just have to disparage that person?

Why is that?

Concerning the Communication Committee:
I would encourage each of you to at the very least to attend the meetings to address the communication committee. Even if you do not ask questions your presence will make our job much easier. I will caution that the group is largely composed of some of the “inner circle” good ole’ boys network, but by attending you will be turning up the heat on the issues and it will be most beneficial to our cause.


"Our cause"?

I'm sorry, I must've missed something here. Has the factionalization really gotten that bad? I mean, one person advocating "Us vs. Them" is one thing, but is that becoming the coin of the realm?

Finally, I would like to be able to answer the numerous questions that you may have of me, but at this time it would not be prudent to do so because it would hinder our efforts.

Again, whose efforts? The church body as a whole? It doesn't sound like it.

Those of us that have met had wanted to wait until such a time that we could act decisively,

Now is where it really gets interesting.

Apparently, and thankfully, the much-touted "Showdown" was a wash. What's the Plan B for acting "decisively"?

but I felt an obligation to let the membership that were actively reading these posts know that we were working and will continue.

And "we" refers to what group of people, exactly?

Please continue the good work. It would be impossible for us to know all of the issues that there are in the absence of this blog.

If people had to take responsibility for the concerns they voice, most of these "issues," whoever you are, would disappear like the morning dew.

--Mike

cjesusnme said...

To All:

After the teacher and Asst. Teacher meeting tonight, it is obvious that there are pep rallys being held throughout the church to dispell any concerns that "We" may have. I am encouraged though by our new brother, Deacon thats a beacon. I know of several that I spoke with this morning who are working dilligently to defend Truth and bring back the integrity of our pulpit.

It was told tonight at the meeting that the $25K given was another "mistake of the mind", dictated from Steve Gaines. How many mistakes is he going to have to make before some people wake up?

Deacon that's a beacon....
My heart aches for you as you see things I have not seen, and heard things I have not heard. I only wish that my tears could wash away the pain that we all feel. I can only imagine the pain you deal with, serving as Deacon with many of "the good ole boys inner circle" and loving them, yet frustrated by their actions. Brother, we love you and pray for your strength, wisdom, guidance, compassion, courage, and many, many other things to get you through this time. Please know that you have many praying for you and we love you dearly!

Anonymous said...

bin wondering,

You said:
Would someone go to the Communication Committee with a video camera and ask the questions we post and agree upon.

I have a better idea - how about anyone with legitmate concerns actually go to one of the meetings? Why do you propse to send one person to ask all the questions + record them...that seems kinda silly. You folks asked for a way to ask questions and voice your concerns...you've been given the chance, now go out and take them up on that offer. A video camera is not necessary.

BR said...

Leave it to Mike to make negative inferences and to attack someone who is wise and willing to seek the truth. His rather long winded (pun intended) diatribes are beginning to wear on us all - and it takes soooo lloonnnnggggg to scroll on by.....
NASS - it is time to block him -

Anonymous said...

br,

and it takes soooo lloonnnnggggg to scroll on by.....
NASS - it is time to block him -


Oh, lookie her...it's the usual "Somebody-supports-Gaines-and-Bellevue-response-and-they don't-have-anything-negative-to-say-about-the-church-so-ignore-him post"

Bin Wonderin said...

have a better idea - how about anyone with legitmate concerns actually go to one of the meetings? Why do you propse to send one person to ask all the questions + record them...that seems kinda silly. You folks asked for a way to ask questions and voice your concerns...you've been given the chance, now go out and take them up on that offer. A video camera is not necessary.

Thanks for your feedback.

Apparently some did go to the meeting and one lady was given the brush off because a question had already been asked and answered. She was late because she teaches Sunday school. I just thought it would be an effective way for the communication committee to ... well... communicate.

Just trying to find a way for people with children and those that teach Sunday School to see what was being asked and answered. I agree that a video camera is not needed. A typed transcript would also work.

I'm still sorry for what I typed to you last night. I regret it and again, I apologize. I was upset about the $25k gift and took it out on you. My bad. I'm sorry I did it.

Anonymous said...

bin wondering,

Apparently some did go to the meeting and one lady was given the brush off because a question had already been asked and answered.
Well - do you know if she got her answer? Or they dismiss her question since it was previously asked?

I'm still sorry for what I typed to you last night. I regret it and again, I apologize. I was upset about the $25k gift and took it out on you. My bad. I'm sorry I did it.

I honestly can't remember what you did, but I remember you apologizing and vice versa. Thanks for your post, I appreciate it.

headoutofthesand said...

br,

Actually, we should just leave Mike to continue to do what he has always been doing--making his irrelevance continually more clear each time he posts.

You see, on Planet Mike, there is only one right answer to every question--and only the lone inhabitant of that planet has those answers. Inhabitants of this planet also have a strange condition that prevents them from seeing any issue from a perspective that is not their own. So, I would ask that we not ban him--just feel sorry for him...it's very lonely out there.

BR said...

ace said...
"Oh, lookie her...it's the usual "Somebody-supports-Gaines-and-Bellevue-response-and-they don't-have-anything-negative-to-say-about-the-church-so-ignore-him post".
Sorry Ace, I know MB and I know how he works. He likes to incite emotions like a trouble maker and I personally have no use for that. It worked on you didn't it.
So rather than get enraged at him, most of us do better just scrolling on by......
Fortunatley for Mikey, our Blog administrator is a nice person, I am just a gruff old man who would rather cut him off than have to put up with his long-windedness. me thinks he thinks he is a great orator...but objectiveness is not in his vocabulary, so if you are attacking me for not wanting to put up with his not so nice posts, who are you to say anything about me....you have no room to talk....
good night..

Anonymous said...


so if you are attacking me for not wanting to put up with his not so nice posts, who are you to say anything about me....you have no room to talk....
good night..


And tell me exactly again - how exactly did I attack you? I did no such thing. There wasn't even an implied attack. All I simply say is that you folks here love to 'scroll on by' when somebody who supports Gaines posts.

Karen said...

ace,

You've just recently shown up here so I'll give you a little history - Mike Bratton like to incite people and he's good at it. He truly cares about the church and I respect him (we've known each other since college) for his beliefs. Mike will tell you himself that he enjoys a good debate so if you want to go to with him, have at it. A lot of posters have read his missives are are no longer impressed.

Just an FYI - Karen

BR said...

acr,
Sounded like an attack to me, but Mike puts me in a bad mood. I have read all of your posts, and it is obvious you support gaines. like I said, I know mike, I shall scroll on by his long winded posts...you are entitled to your opinions of him and i am mine. So we disagree...have a good evening.

Bin Wonderin said...

Well - do you know if she got her answer? Or they dismiss her question since it was previously asked?

She got a response, but not what I would characterize as an answer. That is an opinion though. She got a response because she waited and then asked again. I was just thinking it would be more efficient to offer a transcript. Otherwise they could get the same question next week, and the next, etc.

I honestly can't remember what you did, but I remember you apologizing and vice versa. Thanks for your post, I appreciate it.

Thanks I apologized to Mike also so if he comes looking for me tell him I already took back what I said and apologize to him too. I will do it again right now. Sorry Mike, I was wrong please forgive.

Anonymous said...

Karen,

I know exactly who Mike Bratton is. I've read every post on this forum, his forum, the SB website, etc. I am very familiar with the issues at hand, what is being accused, and etc.

From what I've seen, I can say I have nothing but respect for Mike. I believe he is a godly man and I highly admire him for the stand he has taken.

That is just my opinion, of course, you are always free to disagree...

Karen said...

Ace,

I like you - you didn't tear me apart line by line! :)<---I'm a smiley freak too!

Karen

Karen said...

Goodnight all! I've gotta work in the a.m.

Karen

Anonymous said...

bin wondering,

I was just thinking it would be more efficient to offer a transcript. Otherwise they could get the same question next week, and the next, etc.

I agree that that actually might be a good idea. But I bet if a question is constantly being asked, it'd be posted on the CC website eventually.

Anonymous said...

Karen,

I like you - you didn't tear me apart line by line! :)<---I'm a smiley freak too!

Thanks...I just try to reflect Christ in my posts and I don't see a need to attack people. People often accuse me of attacking themselves and/or others but I beg to differ with them on that! :) G'night, Karen!

Anonymous said...

BR said...
Leave it to Mike to make negative inferences and to attack someone who is wise and willing to seek the truth. His rather long winded (pun intended) diatribes are beginning to wear on us all - and it takes soooo lloonnnnggggg to scroll on by.....
NASS - it is time to block him -

8:44 PM, November 19, 2006

Did Mike Bratton send us of his brillant and thought provoking
essays????
Since Mr.Bratton feels so strongly about using his real name.I suggest when addressing him that we call him by his real name Mr.ANTI-BELLEVUE.If you do decide to block him I will not mind because it really does take soooooo long to scroll on by and we have so little time to waste

Bin Wonderin said...

All I simply say is that you folks here love to 'scroll on by' when somebody who supports Gaines posts.

I don't really like the "supports Gains" characterization. I'm not anti Dr. Gaines. I just see fixable problems that are easily addressed and don't understand why there is a holdup.

I would like:
1. An apology for mocking us at Union City & for trying to tick off the selection committee;
2. An admission the cheerleader tickets are not a legit moving expense and reimbursement to BBC;
3. An admission Dr. Gaines should have never given $25k to FUMC and an explanation of policy changes to prevent a repeat;
4. I'd like a policy for open books on Holy land trips and no overcharging of members. Free tickets for the host and wife are fine but not for anybody else;
5. I'd like a monthly business meeting with open mike Q&A with each committee chairman. Transcripts on the web within a week;
6. A transparent committee selection process;
7. A good updated set of bylaws similar to GBC;
8. The signing of a public conflict of interest form for any member that has any business contract to provide services to the church. These people should be recused from committees that review bids for their services.
9. No church credit cards. Pay your own way and then turn in an expense report like I do at my job.

That would go along way to putting this behind us. I don’t think these are unreasonable, but I suppose others may disagree.

Bin Wonderin said...

I would add that if all 9 of my list were offered as motions at a business meeting, discussed and then voted down by the congrgation I would accept it as the will of the congregation and move on.

Anonymous said...

br,

Sounded like an attack to me

I can assure you, it wasn't.

I have read all of your posts, and it is obvious you support gaines.

You are correct.

you are entitled to your opinions of him and i am mine. So we disagree...have a good evening.

Correct again! Thank you and have a great night youself too.

Anonymous said...

bin wondering,

You list some good points. I agree with a couple, but I also disagree with some too. But you probably expected that, eh? :)

I won't disect your post because I honestly think that'll be a waste of my time (and yours!) and I don't think anything I say can change your mind about your opinion...

Outsider said...

I haven't read the blog in a while and trying to catch up is rather easy. I have noticed as I scroll through that, with the exception of a few comments, most of what is taking place is simply a stroking of the egos of those who think they are winning some type of competition. You cheer for those who have made some new attempt to confront "evil".

The sentiment is masked in "finding the truth" while the heart is readily evident - a desire to "regain lost power". There is even a new "Superhero" (Beacon Deacon) who stands in "Battle" for those who are defenseless and hurt by being "Out of the inner circle". You are like all those who speak the loudest - usually have no power outlets in life, so you take it out on the church where you demand your voice to be heard.
You who primarily post here are true consumers. You can mask it any way you want, but happiness is your ultimate drug and anyone in your way will be a martyr on your blog. The theme of this entire section is one of patting the back of those who make "strong points" and who defend against the secret conspiracy you are fighting.

IT DOESN'T MATTER WHAT THE "ADMINISTRATION" DOES, YOU WILL NEVER BE HAPPY. Uselessness for the TRUE KINGDOM OF GOD (not the one on Appling Road) is your destiny in spite of your best attempts to appear holy and concerned.

Anonymous said...

deacon thats a beacon posted: To Hisservent(s):
I am reminded of Jesus when he met the woman at the well. He asked her to go and return with her husband, to which she replied that she had no husband. Jesus commended her and told that she spoke well for she had five husbands and the man that she was with now was not even her husband. You have spoke well in neither identifying yourself as deacon or staff or layman. I am aware and feel that is my obligation to reveal that you are not one, but at least two and perhaps more. Of two I am certain, because your evil plans to create further confusion have been revealed to me by your own admission. I would advise those that post on this blog to have no confidence in the post that are offered by this individual. I believe earlier that I had referred to them as wolves in sheep’s clothing.



REPLY: evil plans? you must be joking! so, what are my evil plans and who exactly do you think I am? there are 100 Conspiracy theories full of hate on this blog and going around and you accuse me of "evil plans". WOW. you are FAR from a Beacon. you can get on here and join the rumors, slander, hate, libel, venom if you would like. that is your choice. if you truly are a Deacon, that is very very sad. you can try and justify the rumors and slander and venom on this blog until you are blue in the face but you cannot do it using scripture. like so many others, you have allowed yourself to be sucked in and deceived. are you one of the many Deacons that have "issues" and "concerns" but refuse to stand and make them be known? and I am not talking about on a blog.

you can attack me all dau long like many. as I have said many times, I will never stoop to that level. we are in control of our actions.

just another note to everyone. Bellevue, the service, the music, the buildings, the classes etc etc etc are NOT about you. They are to be about Christ and Christ alone. and don't everyone post they know that. by everything I have read, you do not understand or agree with that.

choice_is_yours said...

Concerning the $25,000 check to FUMC.



Is it possible to cancel the check tomorrow morning?

Or at least call FUMC and tell them not to depost it until they get a final decision from bbc?


peace,

Choice

Bin Wonderin said...

You list some good points. I agree with a couple, but I also disagree with some too. But you probably expected that, eh? :)

I won't disect your post because I honestly think that'll be a waste of my time (and yours!) and I don't think anything I say can change your mind about your opinion...


Some are more important to me than others. The numerical order does not correspond to their importance. It was a stream of consciousness thing. I doubt my mind would change on some, others maybe. They are at least worth discussing at a business meeting where you’d have a shot at convincing me at an open mike and vice versa.

And no matter what the vote outcome afterward we fellowship with ice cream; ensuring we all win.

Anonymous said...

And no matter what the vote outcome afterward we fellowship with ice cream; ensuring we all win.

Hey, now we're talking! I definately support that! :)

Anonymous said...

ace: i am thankful you are a part of this blog

Anonymous said...

Hisservant,

Thank you. The same applies to you. Thanks for all of your posts and thoughts. Even though everyone seems to disagree with you on here, I believe there are people viewing this who your posts are helping with the situation and hopefully guiding them to the truth.

Bin Wonderin said...

Hey, now we're talking! I definately support that! :)

Then we can argue over the best flavor and brand of ice cream, or maybe we finally find common ground there. heh. See ya, I gotta go pay some bills and catch up on some work to get ready for tomorrow. Ugh.

Anonymous said...

Hisservant
Now that the $25,000 gift to FUMC is officially admitted to. will you finally answer this question. Do you support this gift????

whynotask said...

I would bet that hisservant & ace are the same person. Also, I believe these two are female and not male. What do you think?

allofgrace said...

hisservant,
can you justify giving 25k to FUMC with scripture?...i'd be interested to here that one...impress me with your scriptural/theological acumen.

Anonymous said...

I am convinced that the only way to stop the evil within Bellevue Baptist, since those in power will not follow scripture is to file a CLASS ACTION SUIT.

The world`s court would be a much better place to settle all of this than to try and continue to work with those who are lack the integrity.

Anonymous said...

whynotask,

I would bet that hisservant & ace are the same person. Also, I believe these two are female and not male. What do you think?

Can I answer your question? I think you are wrong.

allofgrace said...

hisservant,
while you're at it...give me the scriptural foundation for using psychological testing to determine one's spiritual gifts and appropriate ministry.

Anonymous said...

Legal Eagle,
How about a two pronged approach.
Class action and maybe a fulscale IRS audit

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