In the front of the Communications Committee booklet sent out by the church this week is an open letter entitled "A Message to the Congregation" which is signed by Harry Smith, Chairman, and committee members, Jim Angel, Jeff Arnold, Jim Barnwell, Al Childress, David Coombs, John Crockett, Derek Duncan, Scott Foster, Bryan Miller, David Perdue, Mark Spiller, Steve Tucker, Wayne Vander Steeg, and Chuck Taylor, ex-officio. If you have not received a copy or are not a Bellevue member and would like to view the booklet (mostly) in its entirety, you may do so here. See the "Introduction" section to view the letter.
In the letter is this request from the committee:
"We would also kindly ask our membership to refrain from writing e-mails and responses on websites or blogs. This only serves to spread misinformation."
Your thoughts about this, please.
And if you happen to know someone whom you think might benefit from reading some of the "misinformation" to which Mr. Smith and the committee members referred, please refer them to this website, the URL for which is:
http://newbbcopenforum.blogspot.com
It seems only fair that people be given the opportunity to hear all "sides" of the issues so they can then have a truly informed opinion.
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405 comments:
«Oldest ‹Older 201 – 400 of 405 Newer› Newest»it is obvious that all that is desired by hurt or concerned members will not completely come to pass...those who are hoping for a deluge of contrition and remorse to come hope in vain...of the 30 thousand, there is a relatively small number who will risk suffering reproach outside the camp for truth's sake...words to consider as you look forward
Legaleagle... not ot sue their church. Give it a rest. It's not in the Book.
ace,
I understand the list of products and those who produce them...we all have to purchase the necessities of life...i assure you if i had a list of companies who made these same products and did not support such things...i would certainly give them my business...however that logic doesn't fit in this case...corporation's activities and the things they support are often hidden under layers of affiliates, divisions, offshoot companies etc. FUMC makes no bones about what it supports..and unlike the necessity of a consumer to buy the things he needs because there are no other choices...BBC is under no compulsion or need to donate 25k to support "ministry" that condones patently evil practices.
allofgrace said...
ace,
food pantries and clothes closets can't justify supporting what God calls an abomination...do you seriously think that God puts it all on a scale...and somehow these things will balance it out?...even the heathen shows love to his own...but he will perish nonetheless.
11:01 PM, November 19, 2006
Well said: I agree totally.
I really believe that Ace does not grasp the serious of this issue. He seeems to be very young and immature or at lest his justifaction that "FUMC does some good" is an indication of this.I guess that using his logic one could say that the casinos do "some good because a few people win large amounts of money".
But i really suspect that his feigned ignorance of this is due to the fact he cannot bring himself to admit that SG did something wrong.You how blind loyalty is.
Some aren't going to give up that easily. If is a matter of conviction, they should not. Bellevue needs whatever is left of spiritual backbone NOW! Just my opinion.
If we support such things as a church, or we not talking out of both sides of our mouths?...how can a preacher stand in the pulpit and decry the murder of unborn children, and the evil of homosexuality and yet support those who condone such things?
dontbeatthesheep,
I really believe that Ace does not grasp the serious of this issue. He seeems to be very young and immature
What makes me immature? Seeing how I do not grasp the concept, I am just trying to understand this in a simple terms.
or at lest his justifaction that "FUMC does some good" is an indication of this.
Sigh. Do you agree or disagree with your words in quotes? A simple yes or no will do but you are willing to expand if you'd like.
But i really suspect that his feigned ignorance of this is due to the fact he cannot bring himself to admit that SG did something wrong.You how blind loyalty is.
Steve Gaines did something wrong. Are you happy now? Why do you seem to think he is perfect? Everybody in this world has done something wrong.
Begone legaleagle you are not of us. Take your buddies with you.
Andrew
the authority to write a $25k check w/o prior congregational approval is the root problem, while giving it to a liberal, pseudo church, no matter what their dilemma, is corallary
I will close the subject of filing a class action suit but it remains a viable option for anyone who want to take that direction.
There was a time when a few realized that all that had been given to build the SBC was a trust that was worth fighting for. I think that many longtime Bellevue members are not going to roll over and let this church continue down this path. Forgiveness... yes... and consequences... yes. Bellevue needs revival and reform. And reform is always hard.
legaleagle... no more business cards please... no interest here.
25+yrs@bbc,
I am with you brother.
I WILL NOT GIVE UP.
I WILL NOT SHUT UP.
I WILL NOT SIT DOWN.
I WILL NOT BACK DOWN.
I WILL NOT GO SOME WHERE ELSE.
I WILL NOT COMPROMISE THE INTEGRITY OF THIS CHURCH AND THE STAND THAT HAS BEEN TAKEN FOR THE WORD OF GOD.
I WILL NOT LET THIS CHURCH BE LED DOWN THE PATH OF DESTRUCTION.
I WILL NOT. I WILL NOT. I WILL NOT.
25yrs+
there was also a time that SBC churches were distinctly
missionary, in that they supported individual missionaries...not just blindly feed a cash bloated, bureacratic convention, and hope that funds make it to good stewards of both the funds and the gospel
Amen Tim
It seems there are such easy explanations by the CC for the issues that are raised. It's just interesting that there keep being so many things that need to be explained.
Be sure your sin will find you out (Orson).
Been there...
The SBC still takes care of its missionaries better than any other sending agency... My point was that it was worth the effort in 1979 to recapture what had been hijacked by liberalism. And it is worth the effort, whatever that may be, to help the broader Bellevue family to smell the coffee now. Just my opinion.
Everyone-
Without a doubt I can say that the majority of people here like to question Gaines' character, actions, and etc. You disagree with stuff he has done and you are quick to post your objections.
Can we try something different for a little bit? What are some positive things about Dr. Gaines that you admire?
I'll start. When he preaches I can't help but see the love of Jesus in his heart. As bad as it may sound, I tell myself that I wish I had as much passion for our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ as Dr. Gaines does. It truly amazes me and he encourages me to be more Christ-like everyday. Maybe one day I'll get there...and hopefully soon! :)
the path that any church treads and the length of time that it does will not be determined by who has the strongest will or best argument; the LORD will determine the path no matter what plan we might devise, and we can rest assured it will be for His glory and the good of His people, though providence might seem to frown presently
Sure got quiet Ace... I guess you and hisservant will have to put this thread to bed.
BR said...
Leave it to Mike to make negative inferences and to attack someone who is wise and willing to seek the truth. His rather long winded (pun intended) diatribes are beginning to wear on us all - and it takes soooo lloonnnnggggg to scroll on by.....
NASS - it is time to block him -
8:44 PM, November 19, 2006
I ask questions, and you avoid them.
Why?
headoutofthesand said...
br,
Actually, we should just leave Mike to continue to do what he has always been doing--making his irrelevance continually more clear each time he posts.
You see, on Planet Mike, there is only one right answer to every question--and only the lone inhabitant of that planet has those answers. Inhabitants of this planet also have a strange condition that prevents them from seeing any issue from a perspective that is not their own. So, I would ask that we not ban him--just feel sorry for him...it's very lonely out there.
9:03 PM, November 19, 2006
The technical term for that type of response is "making my point for me." Yet another post that has to attack the person, and does not respond to questions.
BR said...
ace said...
"Oh, lookie her...it's the usual "Somebody-supports-Gaines-and-Bellevue-response-and-they don't-have-anything-negative-to-say-about-the-church-so-ignore-him post".
Sorry Ace, I know MB and I know how he works. He likes to incite emotions like a trouble maker and I personally have no use for that. It worked on you didn't it.
So rather than get enraged at him, most of us do better just scrolling on by......
Fortunatley for Mikey, our Blog administrator is a nice person, I am just a gruff old man who would rather cut him off than have to put up with his long-windedness. me thinks he thinks he is a great orator...but objectiveness is not in his vocabulary, so if you are attacking me for not wanting to put up with his not so nice posts, who are you to say anything about me....you have no room to talk....
good night..
9:04 PM, November 19, 2006
Whoever you are, you don't know me. You may be acquainted with me, but you don't know me in the slightest. And if you're acquainted with me, please have the courtesy to let me know who you are--via e-mail, phone, or face-to-face chat.
Bin Wonderin said...
Thanks I apologized to Mike also so if he comes looking for me tell him I already took back what I said and apologize to him too. I will do it again right now. Sorry Mike, I was wrong please forgive.
Absolutely, though I have no idea what it is you're asking to be forgiven for. And since you took whatever it was back, there's no need for me to go looking for it--so I won't. (Did that last sentence make sense?)
dontbeatthesheep said...
Did Mike Bratton send us of his brillant and thought provoking
essays????
Since Mr.Bratton feels so strongly about using his real name.I suggest when addressing him that we call him by his real name Mr.ANTI-BELLEVUE.If you do decide to block him I will not mind because it really does take soooooo long to scroll on by and we have so little time to waste
With precise, issue-oriented counterpoints such as that one, I might have to break out the heavy artillery. You know, "I'm rubber and you're glue..."?
Bin Wonderin said...
Oh, this is a rare treat, people.
And you think I'm kidding...
I don't really like the "supports Gains" characterization. I'm not anti Dr. Gaines. I just see fixable problems that are easily addressed and don't understand why there is a holdup.
Perhaps because the wheels of Bellevue grind slow, but exceeding fine?
I would like:
1. An apology for mocking us at Union City
I have to tell you--I've gone at that eight ways from Sunday, and I don't see anything he need to apologize for. You folks can compare him to Bill Clinton and Adolf Hitler, and no one apologizes, so just what does Pastor Gaines specifically need to apologize for, in your opinion?
& for trying to tick off the selection committee;
Again, his instinct was to stay at Gardendale. That incident actually illustrates how God can make His will clear to us in spite of our own personal predilections, wouldn't you agree?
2. An admission the cheerleader tickets are not a legit moving expense and reimbursement to BBC;
You know, that reads like something they wouldn't have had to spend money on had they not been in the throes of relocation. I don't know if it's typical, but I think "illegitimate" is overly harsh.
3. An admission Dr. Gaines should have never given $25k to FUMC and an explanation of policy changes to prevent a repeat;
Dudes, I am completely in the dark on this--don't know what you're all talking about. Any help?
4. I'd like a policy for open books on Holy land trips and no overcharging of members. Free tickets for the host and wife are fine but not for anybody else;
Isn't that the option of the people who run the tour company?
And where has there been a suggestion of overcharging? Seriously--I'm feeling out of the loop again.
5. I'd like a monthly business meeting with open mike Q&A with each committee chairman. Transcripts on the web within a week;
You know, I grew up in a church with monthly business meetings. Most of them were pleasant, but some were downright embarrassing. It is not the worst idea in the world, though. How do you propose running one at a church the size of Bellevue?
6. A transparent committee selection process;
I'd have to be more well-versed on the current process to give a thorough response, but I do think it's an opportunity to put bellevue.org to work.
7. A good updated set of bylaws similar to GBC;
You know, I'm betwixt and between here. "Updated bylaws" sounds great, but we're not exactly the Rotarians or the Kiwanis Club. The bylaws were the same five years ago as they are today, and I certainly don't remember an outcry over them back then. However, I see the point.
8. The signing of a public conflict of interest form for any member that has any business contract to provide services to the church. These people should be recused from committees that review bids for their services.
Completely recused?
9. No church credit cards. Pay your own way and then turn in an expense report like I do at my job.
Since, obviously, we don't know what you do for a living, I don't know how accurate a comparison it is between your expenses and those of a Bellevue credit card holder. It might be a good comparison, or it might not. The issue just boils down to being a good steward of church funds however they're spent, does it not?
That would go along way to putting this behind us. I don’t think these are unreasonable, but I suppose others may disagree.
With a few of them, yes. But not with all of them.
Outsider said...
I haven't read the blog in a while and trying to catch up is rather easy. I have noticed as I scroll through that, with the exception of a few comments, most of what is taking place is simply a stroking of the egos of those who think they are winning some type of competition. You cheer for those who have made some new attempt to confront "evil".
The sentiment is masked in "finding the truth" while the heart is readily evident - a desire to "regain lost power".
Outsider, whoever you are, please don't attempt to just the hearts of those with whom you disagree.
If people are not focused on the issues at hand--regardless of viewpoint--we can encourage such focus; however, it is a Biblical fundamental that we are not to presume to know the hearts of others, or to make such declarations as you have.
David was, according to Scripture, a man after God's own heart. Yet David allowed his passions to overwhelm him, culminating in a murder. Who of us would so generously characterize a man who conspired to commit a murder (even one who has repented) in such a favorable way as the Bible describes David?
There is even a new "Superhero" (Beacon Deacon) who stands in "Battle" for those who are defenseless and hurt by being "Out of the inner circle". You are like all those who speak the loudest - usually have no power outlets in life, so you take it out on the church where you demand your voice to be heard.
As someone who wouldn't know an "inner circle" if it bit me on the elbow, you're attempting to psychoanalyze people you do not know.
You who primarily post here are true consumers. You can mask it any way you want, but happiness is your ultimate drug and anyone in your way will be a martyr on your blog.
These are completely personal disparagements, and uncalled for. I would encourage you, when next you post, to apologize to the "primary posters" here--and to orient your subsequent posts to the issues at hand.
The theme of this entire section is one of patting the back of those who make "strong points" and who defend against the secret conspiracy you are fighting.
All the more reason to address the "strong points" as being not so strong, and avoid insulting the people making the points.
IT DOESN'T MATTER WHAT THE "ADMINISTRATION" DOES, YOU WILL NEVER BE HAPPY.
And you know this how, exactly?
Uselessness for the TRUE KINGDOM OF GOD (not the one on Appling Road) is your destiny in spite of your best attempts to appear holy and concerned.
9:48 PM, November 19, 2006
I'm pretty certain, whoever you are, that you don't want your "destiny" to be one where you're found guilty of condemning people with whom you disagree as "useless." If you want to compare resumes, though, please re-register with your real name and put your resume in your profile.
That will give some of this Forum's regulars the opportunity to see whether your usefulness for the TRUE KINGDOM OF GOD (oww, my ears!) is either a standard along the lines of a yardstick, or along the lines of a micrometer.
--Mike
25+
my comment was not about liberalism in the convention, but about practice in general; there is much about convention practice that is done in the name of SBC churches that the laity knows little about, but nevertheless is done with funds they have freely given; the parallel being that offerings given by Bellevue members could likewise be used in a manner that they know little about...as Bellevue members need to 'smell the coffee' (your words) so do baptists in general need to know that the same things occurs within the convention on a much broader scale
25+yrs@BBC,
Since you're still here, do you have anything to say in regards to my last post? Is there anything that you can think of?
Of course we know that Christ said the kingdom was inside of us (under the rule/reign of Christ), and Paul said that it wasn't meat or drink, but righteousness, peace, and joy in the Holy Ghost. His kingdom is established in His people and advanced as He conforms us to the image of His son. Not one thing 'we' do builds His kingdom. But much that we do and say bares no reflection of that.
xd9x19 said...
...
As for Brother Bratton, he rarely answers any questions put to him, he just parses everybody else's statements.
It's called "asking questions," Ed. And in point of fact, I ask questions and get precious few answers from the regulars here, for whatever reason or reasons. However, if there's something you know I've been asked to which I haven't responded, by all means let me know.
He needs to realize the church doesn't WANT to know the truth.
Why? Because they can't handle the truth?
Perhaps Mr. Nicholson's finest performance, wouldn't you agree?
They want to do damage and spin control. Case in point - if the church is seeking to make things right and seeking the truth, why do they contact an ex-staff member and ask to talk to him, but stipulate that he can only answer yes or no to the questions?
Got an answer for that, Mike?
Hmm. Let me think.
Since you don't specify the ex-staff member, the person or persons who presumably made such ludicrous stipulations, or much of anything else--no, I don't have an answer.
My turn. If a train is leaving Memphis for Chicago at 1:15 p.m. traveling an average speed of 75 miles per hour...
No, that would be too loaded with specifics. My apologies.
Seriously, though, Ed, you asked what boiled down to a hypothetical question.
I'll tell you why.
Well, don't leave us in suspense, man!
I've given several depositions over the last couple of years. One things lawyers on the opposing side count on is that in response to questions, the witness give more information that JUST a yes or a no. Thus, to limit someone to solely yes or no answers reeks of spin control, of not seeking the TRUTH.
Having testified more than once my own self, I've actually had some fun with "just answer yes or no, please." It's been my experience that judges and magistrates only go along with such limits for hostile witnesses, which (contrary to the opinions of some) I've never been classified as. (It's a joke!) It's also been my experience that attorneys on your side will generally have the opportunity to revisit "yes or no" responses and elaborate on them.
A funny story if I may: When the earth's crust was cooling and I was a young man, I spent some time in federal law enforcement as an Law Enforcement Ranger in the National Park Service. The park I worked was not exactly Yellowstone--more like Crack Cocaine-stone. While testifying as the arresting officer in a significant drug-trafficking case, the defense attorney wanted to know if I had Mirandized his client. "Just answer 'yes' or 'no,' Ranger." I looked him in the eye, smiled, and said "No."
The prosecution, of course, was ready for this, but the defense attorney did their work for them. "And would you please tell this court why you deemed it acceptable to deny my client the reading of his Constitutional rights?" Oh, this guy looked like a winner on Deal Or No Deal after he asked the question, but he really wasn't ready for the answer: "Because I didn't need to interrogate him." "Um... nothing further, Your Honor..."
Well, it gets a laugh from people who've been in law enforcement.
Usually.
The point of that little tangent, I guess, is to say that "yes and no" limitations rarely stay that limited, at least in my study and experience.
Did Mr. Whitmire resign (as in the Communications Committee brochure recently mailed out)? Well, yes, technically he did resign, but it isn't hard to find out there is WAY more to that story than "he resigned".
You know, I really wish people would leave Dr. Whitmire out of this. I've asked him about this business more than once, and he's never had an unkind word to say about what did or didn't transpire. I do know that God is blessing him wildly these days, giving him opportunities to do things he enjoys and new ways to serve. Even if, worst-case scenario, someone meant it for evil (which I'm confident wasn't the case), God meant it for good.
Same goes for David Smith and Rob Mullins.
David, I don't have so much information on just because our paths don't cross so much. But as far as Rob's concerned, I asked him directly about his departure after he announced it to the congregation. Unless he lied to the church and lied to me as an individual friend (which, obviously, he didn't), he left because God said to go do something else--not because he was nudged, coerced, forced, or crowbarred out. And that's the beginning and the end of it.
--Mike
Mike Sharpe
Apparently I offended a brother at the meeting last night. That was definitely not my intention.
If you will call me on the phone I will explain what I said, what I meant and ask forgiveness for anything I said to offend him (possibly you too) and anyone else that was offended by my remarks.
I was merely trying to point out that each and every person who has offended someone (on either side) needs to ask forgiveness from each and every person they offended.
Will you forgive me? Also anyone else I offended, Will you forgive me too? If I am made aware of any that I offended I will be happy to buy you a cup of coffee and ask forgiveness in person.
I carry my cell phone with me all the time and you can call me anytime between 7:30 AM and 11:30 PM. If you have lost my number let me know and I will call you.
Remember Jesus Loves YOU and ME.
Thanks
DeWayne Hartsoe
pinker socks said...
Everyone,
Please quit feeding the stray cat(Mike Bratton) so that he will go away and find somewhere else to eat and spew his hair balls.
8:21 AM, November 20, 2006
Thank you for the substantive, fact-drenched discussion of issues--it was like reading a transcript of Crossfire, back before they yelled at one another.
Also, many thanks for the substantive, fact-drenched pseudonym. I think I speak for all men who have ever done laundry when I say that the potential for "pinker socks" is one reason we wash everything in cold water.
On the other hand, thank you, stillwaitingandwatching, for the information. I will, indeed, do some research.
--Mike
Mr. Hartsoe,
You are a big man in the faith and I admire you for it. I know Mark will be thrilled to take your call.
God Bless us all today - is there forgiveness to offer or accept today?
Mike, forgive me for my remarks last night. I'll address you more in your email.
Karen
This is from an article posted on a website - www.batteredsheep.com:
When Has Authority Gone Too Far?
by Jon Zens
" Perverted authority is often subtle, but Christ's sheep are able to sense its tentacles. If a church atmosphere causes people to walk around with a dark cloud over their heads (no joy, Gal. 4:15), to feel like they are being "watched" and "kept track of," and to feel like they can't talk or do things without "checking in" with the leadership, etc., there is probably an authority problem.
Some marks of perverted authority:
1. the claim of direct authority from God, rather than testing things by the Word;
2. the command is to "submit to me," rather than "I will serve you";
3. the method of leadership is to "order" people around, rather than to appeal for them to do the right things;
4. there is a dominating, "pushy" drive instead of a dependence on God to direct;
5. there is a sense of control, rather than a sense of support;
a gift is exploited so that others are made to feel dependent on it;
6. there is an inflexibility--"don't question me"--"don't touch the Lord's anointed";
7. there is unapproachability and intimidation--the "aura" around the leader keeps the followers in "awe";
8. there emerges an organization built around a man and his peculiar emphases instead of around Christ and His Word;
9. there will be cyclical challenges to the authority figure (which are immediately and forcefully purged);
10. there is more concern for maintaining the authoritarian structure than there is for caring about the people in it.
As you think about your own experience, it is apparent that "cults" do not have a monopoly on these tragic attributes. They too often permeate the structures of "Christian" groups and churches."
Mike - Stuck at work but I will try to get back to you tonight with a reponse to your questions about what I will call my "9-point plan" for lack of a better term. Some of those (number 1 for example) are my opinion so we may disagree on the need for any action, but I will try to explain more fully why I feel that way. Others are just what I see as good business practice and I'll try to expand on what I mean. For eample, if you serve on a committe that awards contracts, and you also submit a bid to provide the church those services it is just too close to insider dealing. Serving on the committee is okay, submitting a bid to provide services to the church is okay. BUT you should recuse yourself when the committee meets to review and award the contract that you bid on. For a person to both submit a bid and award a bid creates a conflict of interest.
I guess I am a little disappointed that obvious safeguards to avoif even the appearance of impropriety are not in place. A better non budgeted disbursement process would also have prevented the $25k check to FUMC. This is a church whoe Senior Pastor advocates gay, lesbian and transgender people be allowed to serve as ordained clergy. We could have shown our support in a way that did not involve a cash donation.
More later, sorry for typos, banging this out fast on a break.
Ben
Good work Churchmouse! That is a scary list to say the least. Wow!
There's an article on "Culture Crashing" that is posted on savingbellevue.com. That's where my first thought of "there's something rotten in Denmark" came from.
Karen
Regarding SW&Ws post on the FUMC check - If the check was purely to replenish their clothes closet and food bank, wouldn't IMPACT Ministries been a better place to give the check? I know they are on the list to receive funds from the Love Offering, but with the lower than normal turnout, don't you think that gets pushed down the list or the amount slated would be reduced?
The Messenger or Truth & Light (I can't remember which) just had an article about Moriah House, which is the women's arm of the Memphis Union Mission. The Moriah House is currently building a new facility and will open in March 2007 - they always need funds and it's an organization that is endorsed by Bellevue already. No research was needed to know that the funds would be used for things that Bellevue endorses - food, shelter, medical care, education, clothes, toys, etc. for needy women and their children.
Just some thoughts,
Karen
Dewayne,
Brother, I'm not upset with you. I'd call you but I left your number at home. All I was stating was that Chuck Taylor (as he's done over and over before) will take something and turn it into something else.
An example from yesterday, ( I'm told) that Chuck said I was not willing to meet months ago to resolve some of my issues because of a request for emails.
This has already been covered in the JoshManning/Sharpe interview done some time ago.
I said early on that the best way to get to the truth is to get all of the people involved into the same room and deal with it. This requested meeting was made by Mark Dougharty (Derek Duncan was the middle-man in this meeting arangement so he can verify what I'm saying.)
On the credit charges I asked for a meeting with the following people in the same room at the same time: search committee, finance committee for this year and last year, and the current board of directors, and Chip Freeman. I requested an email be sent out to all people to verify everyone had been invited. Mark Dougharty agreed to that on the front end. When it came close to meeting, Mark Dougharty changed his mind and only invited his small handpicked group of men (who surround him and the pastor only) and left out more than half of the people on the committees. When I found that out, I said no to the meeting. Why would I want to meet with his "yes men" who are closely involved in the financial handling of these matters? Without the others there for accountablilty and for questioning, it would have been another waste of time.
Chuck Taylor and the other leadership team has taken this incident and retold it over and over to mislead people into thinkging that Mark Sharpe has been unreasonable. I've said all along if people want to find the truth, it's not hard to find and it doesn't take a lot of time.
On the dream issue (still unresolved and unexplained), the offer still stands with the church if they want to get to the truth. Get Pastor Gaines, Mark Dougharty, David Smith, Bryson McQuistion, and Craig Parker into the same room with a few witnesses (I'll volunteer to be there) and we'll very quickly get to the truth. I asked for this meeting to take place 6 months ago and was told to go find another church. Here we are 6 months later and the official story from the leadership has changed several times and we still don't have the truth. My question is why not? Before the sun goes down today, we could have the truth found if the leadership was serious about finding it.
Sorry to go for so long Dwayne. I love you brother and I'll try and give you a call tonight or tomorrow.
God Bless you,
Mark Sharpe
I appologize to you Chuck Taylor and Mark Dougharty for sounding harsh in my last response.
I want both of you to know that I love you and desire that Bellevue Baptist Church returns to being a kind, loving, truth seeking, truth proclaiming, gentle, Christ honoring church.
May God work in all of us and may God have mercy on us all.
Because He lives,
Mark
I hope the Lord delivers us from Bellevuegate soon.
Some thoughts:
1)If former staff members are being restricted to answering "yes" or "no" questions by the communications committee, it sure would be nice to hear from them on this blog. That may be unrealistic.
Dr. Rogers always said, "Servants know secrets."
2)I am surprised that Mark D. has the nerve to show his face anywhere around the church in light of how he treated Dr. Whitmire.
Maybe his prayer life wasn't very strong at the time when this was going on. This would explain, but not excuse his disgusting behavior.
Perhaps he should be stripped of his title if he stripped others of theirs.
3)And, why, please someone tell me, does it cost $200,000 to renovate the pastor's office, again? I would think that a new pastor would be thrilled to come to Bellevue and would work with what he'd been given.
Who authorized spending so much money? Perhaps, S.G. didn't realize it would cost so much. I don't know. But who did?
If he needed a few more bookshelves, then ADD SOME!!! But don't be so greedy and ungrateful for where God has brought you. And if S.G. didn't know those specifics, then who authorized that much of an expense?
4)Is Bellevue so rich that she has become poor?
5)How many other preachers are out there that would have come to Bellevue and just loved the people and preached the Word, while making very few changes in the early-going as their seminary professors taught them?
Mark,
why don't you share with all of us the details of this "dream". I was not there, but the very first time I heard it, I thought there is probably a VERY simple answer to it. I will wait to here the story from you and then I will comment.
Karen posted: The Ruth's Chris dinner is resolved (although it was pretty cheap per person considering the prices at that particular restaurant). The stuff we're talking about today is new.
REPLY: this has been part of the point all along. this Ruth's Chris deal is one issue MANY on the blog and others were going crazy about. it was one of the BIG problems and points. We have now found out the "facts" were way off. the number of people at a meal that like that changes things does it not? you through a meal that actually happened and add some mis-information to it and everything becomes different.
1. why don't you and others think this same thing can be the case for many of these terrible "issues"? why?
2. have you and others said you were sorry to Brother Steve and all involved about accusing him of things you have already been proven to be wrong about?
i will be honest. when this is all over, I think there is going to be a pretty large group of people with egg on their face and that will need to say they are sorry.
i would also agree there are many on both sides that will have to make things right. we have all made mistakes during this time.
Thank you Sister Pam.
I cannot express how much your posts encourage all of us. And your first-hand experiences, which show the pain and filth that they have bestowed upon you and your husband, serve to embolden us to not give up.
I'm sorry you had to go through that but I thank God that we can us it for the betterment of our beloved church.
Thank you for the Scripture and God bless,
A.
questions:
1. why do some of my posts tend to just "disappear"
2. why is it so hard for some many on here to post without making things personal? why must you change my name and others to bad things they are not? why must you make personal attacks etc? why?
when called out, you either ignore it or have some grand excuse. there is NO excuse. and please do not say you are hurting and tired etc etc. guess what, you are NOT the ONLY ONES hurting here. you are not the only ones that are tired. the personal attacks do not help you, trust me.
standard caveat: I am not slandering, nor lying, nor libeling, nor hating, nor calling names.
hisservant,
Please don't use my posts in what I perceive to be your twisted quest to confuse people.
The Ruth Chris issue may not be resolved - my post was my opinion. It may not be resolved with some people. I've never said anything about Steve behind his back that I wouldn't say to his face. I can't get near the man to say boo to him let alone discuss a serious issue.
housewife and Sister Pam,
Hebrews 11, ladies! Hebrews 11 RULES!
Karen
hisservent,
Why are you trying to confuse people on Ruths Chris and other stories? Everything you put out is untruthful and you know it. The charges for the Gaine's, the Parker's, and the Street's were never shown. You know Bellevue has (fill in any number you want) credit cards floating around in the hands of different ministers. Show all bills for all cards and then you can give your story on Ruths Chris. Right now, nobody can stick a fork in this story because it's not done.
hisservant said,
why is it so hard for some many on here to post without making things personal? why must you change my name and others to bad things they are not?
Because they disagree with you and I guess it makes them feel better when they attack the poster instead of addressing the post. I really don't know...
"when called out, you either ignore it or have some grand excuse. there is NO excuse."
Sadly, I've noticed that too. I think I've addressed every single issue somebody has brought up to me personally. When I bring up a point that I know the oppposing side will disagree with, it doesn't even get addressed, thus just proving my point. These people here pick and choose exactly what they want to talk about. If you may have posted a good thought, it'll be ignored because they can't deal with the truth (or at least some of them can't).
Another thing I noticed - does anyone here have anything positive to say about Gaines? See my post at 11:55 PM last night. Over 12 hours later and not a single response. Can anyone here at all acknowledge some good that Gaines has done? Or has he not done any good at all? Just something to think about...
Karen: no real suprise on your post. Brother Steve is down front after every service and for a long time on Sunday nights. just like I have said over and over, those that want to talk and get the answers can. if you have not talked to Brother Steve, it is because you have never tried or do not want to.
karen,
I can't get near the man to say boo to him let alone discuss a serious issue.
How hard have you tried to talk to him? I see him talking to people before and after the services each Sunday...in the morning and evening.
Also- I never try to run into him, but I do every single week...he's not hard to get into contact with...really!
well said Ace and very very true.
right on ace. he is NOT hard to get to or to talk to. actually, quite the opposite
stillwaiting,
How come the two of you seems to always appear on this blog together???
You seem to be on this blog whenever I am, too...hmm...
Are you the same person talking to yourself?? I find that very ironic.
Here's the real question: Am I you and are you talking to yourself right now? Wouldn't that be ironic too?
well done posted: hisservent,
Why are you trying to confuse people on Ruths Chris and other stories? Everything you put out is untruthful and you know it. The charges for the Gaine's, the Parker's, and the Street's were never shown. You know Bellevue has (fill in any number you want) credit cards floating around in the hands of different ministers. Show all bills for all cards and then you can give your story on Ruths Chris. Right now, nobody can stick a fork in this story because it's not done.
REPLY: what I posted is 100% truthful. the deal with the 3 couples you are talking about, where are the facts? it is simpy not true. the facts are whoever started the story got their facts wrong and started a rumor that has helped start a big mess for no reason.
why would the Street's eat with the Parker's and the Gaines? The records show who was at that meal and why? please stop with all the Conspiracy theories. it is not true that there are many credit cards floating around.
can you even tell us why the Street's would be at a meal like this? Yes, they were there, butnot with the group you listed. but why?
if the pastor reimburses the church for a personal expense, as the guidelines say he should, what more can be done?
if the pastor's salary is high as some claim, then why is there a quibble over such small amounts, relatively speaking?
on the personal issues, he said/she said matters can only be resolved by humility on both sides?
Is there evidence that this spiritual posture is in place by either side?
stillwaiting,
Actually, Ace, I have been on this blog way before you and hisservant even got here, so that blows your theory out of the water.
Who is to say you didn't create a new username to keep yourself from getting lonely? I'm just saying your logic behind Hisservant/myself being the same person is faulty.
All you and hisservant do it high-five eachother.
I'm sorry...would you like a high five too? *holds out hand* ;)
Although I am totally behind our Pastor I have to say that I do have a big problem with the $25000 donation. I think that `s real joke but a costly one.
I also have problems with some of the other things I have seen at the church but I still want to back the pastor as much as I can
hisservent,
Get real. If you don't admit there are more credit cards for Bellevue out there than total annual deacon's meetings and finance committee meetings combined, then don't bother to blog again.
Why would Street eat with Gaines? Are they best friends? Did they ever room together? Did Steve meet Donna at Dana Street's home?
You better get back to Ace and get your stories straight.
why does this blog allow multiple people to use the same name. now we have another HISSERVANT on all caps. just more confusion. nothing against you NEW HISSERVANT and welcome. it just makes things even harder to understand and keep straight on here
well done posted: hisservent,
Get real. If you don't admit there are more credit cards for Bellevue out there than total annual deacon's meetings and finance committee meetings combined, then don't bother to blog again.
Why would Street eat with Gaines? Are they best friends? Did they ever room together? Did Steve meet Donna at Dana Street's home?
You better get back to Ace and get your stories straight.
REPLY: it is pretty easy to see you have no facts and or first hand knowledge of anything. you answer questions with questions. what is the answer? if you know ANYTHING about these charges, the question I asked you is very basic. very.
so how many credit cards are you claiming the church has and how many are you claiming Brother Steve has/had?
NBBCOF?? i just posted that having the same names would cause major issues.
HISERVANT and HisServant are NOT the same people
Karen, thank you for the Hebrews 11 reference.
By faith, by faith, by faith. =)
A.
hisservant said:
"why would the Street's eat with the Parker's and the Gaines? The records show who was at that meal and why? please stop with all the Conspiracy theories. it is not true that there are many credit cards floating around.
can you even tell us why the Street's would be at a meal like this? Yes, they were there, butnot with the group you listed. but why?"
Karen responds:
Copied from Comminucations Committee booklet at http://www.bellevuecommunicationcommittee.org/faq.html
There is a story circulating that Dr. Gaines used his credit card for a $400 dinner at Ruth's Chris Steakhouse with only staff in attendance. Shouldn't this be a personal expense?
No. This was a typical hospitality meal for Dr. and Mrs. David Jeremiah and Charles Billingsley, our guests during Awesome August. Those in attendance were: Dr. and Mrs. Gaines, Bill and Dayna Street, Mark and Dianne Dougharty, David and Donna Jeremiah, and Charles Billingsley. The cost of the meal was $448.17, which comes to approximately $39.63 per person before tax and tip. All expenses were consistent with Bellevue's executive staff expense reimbursement policy.
Why were the Streets attending the meal?
Bill and Dayna Street served as host and hostess for the Jeremiahs including providing transportation. A different couple was assigned each week to host guest speakers.
why does this blog allow multiple people to use the same name. now we have another HISSERVANT on all caps. just more confusion. nothing against you NEW HISSERVANT and welcome. it just makes things even harder to understand and keep straight on here
The above was copied and pasted - I did not change one word.
hisservent said...
Although I am totally behind our Pastor I have to say that I do have a big problem with the $25000 donation. I think that `s real joke but a costly one.
I also have problems with some of the other things I have seen at the church but I still want to back the pastor as much as I can
1:39 PM, November 20, 2006
Thank you for finally answering the $25000question. I am grateful that you see that it was so wrong for the leadership to do this. Maybe you might begin to think about the other problems with the leadership and have a total change of heart
Karen: you are right about the Streets. that is why they were there. this is something that they always do. the group that was listed by the Committee are the ones that were there. NOT the 3 couples rumored.
guys, I did not answer anything!
HISSERVANT is someone new.
HISSERVANT is no hisservant
1:39 pm. HISSERVANT posted
looks like we have 3 now. and you accuse others of trying to deceive?? unreal
Yesterday I became an "x-member" of Bellevue. I had seriously considered staying to fight for my church, but just don't have the strength anymore.
There is another method available for those who are willing to stay and fight. I seriously considered following through with this myself. Let me know if it is of any benefit to you.
http://mywebpages.comcast.net/singingman7777/MSR2.htm
1:39. you can click on my profile and theirs and see th difference.
x-member: I hope you find a new church soon where you and your family will be happy and whre you can worship
hisservant,
I don't see what you're talking about either. No one has a blogger name in ALL CAPS.
Karen
Here's the corrected link
http://mywebpages.comcast.net/singingman7777/MSR2.htm
oops! add ".htm to the end of the link. It won't copy it into the blog.
http://mywebpages.comcast.net/singingman7777/MSR2
HisServant said...
guys, I did not answer anything!
HISSERVANT is someone new.
HISSERVANT is no hisservant
2:21 PM, November 20, 2006
So now you are retracting your previous ststement condeming the $25000 gift........ What happened ,Did SG of Mark D have a little talk with you and set you straight????
Or maybe Beacon Deacon is correct and there is more than one hisservent and the other one of you is having a change of heart.
can you read? is it that hard? i and others have posted SEVERAL times in the last hour that there is now more than one HisServant. I can only speak for myself. I am not retracting anything? I have not commented on the $25,000. not once!
i am now HisServant-1
You know this could all be avoided if we all use our real names! :)
Yeah, like that'll happen...
Karen <---that is my real name! :)
hisservent says
"I have not commented on the $25,000. not once! '
Ok will you comment now. ...If you don't you will prove to me that Beacon Deacon is right and you are trying to "rope a dope" and I will add you to my ignore that person list .Since you don't have the moral courage to answer the $25000 quertion you will soon ignore listGoodby Mr. Hisservent
maybe this will fix the issue, maybe not. several on here are doing whatever they can do deceive and get me off here. wonder why!
hisservant, Ace, MB, and the other lurking minions of the Bellevue oligarchy... Gooooo awaaaay! Shoo! Scrammmm! Your comments are predictable, devious, and unwanted here.
25+years,
Shoo! Scrammmm! Your comments are predictable, devious, and unwanted here.
Excuse me? I, for one, am staying. You have no right to tell me to leave. I have not attacked anyone and just because you disagree with me doesn't mean I should leave.
25 yrs@bbc: you are AMAZING! you show your true colors with every single post. if one of us had the posted what you just did, we would be accused of everything in the book. you only want one side presented. you only want to hear the new horrible juicy gossip. that is truly sad.
more name calling by the great (hurting) Christians that make up this great Christian blog.
i have tried to hold off on my judgements until I was able to actually get the facts about what had been done etc. not to be rude, but I know that is a crazy form of thinking for many on here. to actually gather facts before running your mouth and spreading rumors.
i am still asking some questions.
if there was $25,000 given, I do not think it is a Sin, BUT, I would probably agree that our money could have been spent better. Bellevue is trying to reach this sity in different ways and reach out to different groups. This is a tough issue. i will post more on this subject later tonight.
thanks
well said Ace. this gets more amazing by the day
What we have folks is elder rule by a close knit group of power brokers. The congregation needs to be awakened to this. I agree with Bin Wonderin:
We need:
1. An apology to the congregation for mocking us at Union City. After all, some of us didn't fall off the cabbage truck yesterday!
2. An admission the cheerleader tickets are not a legit moving expense and reimbursement to BBC.
3. An admission Dr. Gaines should have never given $25k to FUMC and an explanation of policy changes to prevent a repeat.
4. A policy for open books on Holy land trips and no overcharging of members. Free tickets for the host and wife are fine but not for anybody else
5. A monthly business meeting with open mike Q&A with each committee chairman. Transcripts on the web within a week;
6. A transparent committee selection process.
7. A good updated set of bylaws similar to GBC.
8. The signing of a public conflict of interest form for any member that has any business contract to provide services to the church. These people should be recused from committees that review bids for their services.
9. No church credit cards. Pay your own way and then turn in an expense report like I do at my job.
AND I would like to add...
10. A business meeting in accord with Matthew 18 to deal with the issues that remain related to Mark Sharpe and "the Dream"... AND any other loose ends that should have been dealt with months ago!!
11. The END of heavy handed dealing with ministers, staff, and members.
12. A whistle blower policy for ministers, staff, and members.
25+yrs@BBC said...
hisservant, Ace, MB, and the other lurking minions of the Bellevue oligarchy... Gooooo awaaaay! Shoo! Scrammmm! Your comments are predictable, devious, and unwanted here.
4:07 PM, November 20, 2006
Well said :(CLAP,CLAP,CLAP)
I totally agree with your statements.I have placed the above mentioned on my ignore list.Like you I am tired of the "ROPE-A-DOPE" and "BAITING" from this bunch, and when I see those names I will just scroll on by.
Maybe if we just ignore them it will force them to either be honest or away.
Also:
13. Full disclosure of ministerial compensation: salary + benefit breakdown, etc.
14. Much greater congregational oversight of the current budget with a transparent policy for consideration of non-budgeted expenditures exceeding a reasonable amount.
I've been sitting on the sidelines reading occasionally, but can't help but respond to the following:
ace said (and hisservant-1 agreed): Excuse me? I, for one, am staying. You have no right to tell me to leave. I have not attacked anyone and just because you disagree with me doesn't mean I should leave.
Anyone else see the glaring hypocrisy here?
Collin Houseal
I must add that ace himself may or may not have specifically directed those in disagreement to leave, but that's most assuredly the suggestion others on the church/administration side have given. Repeatedly and openly.
dontbeatthesheep,
I have placed the above mentioned on my ignore list.Like you I am tired of the "ROPE-A-DOPE" and "BAITING" from this bunch, and when I see those names I will just scroll on by.
Is "rope-a-dope" your favorite term in the world? You accused me of being immature earlier...lemme ask you this: who's the one lacking the maturity now?
Again - just because you disagree with me does not mean you should ignore me. Do you see me ignoring you? Absolutely not. Oh, wait. I guess by ignoring me you'd be ignoring the truth and you can't deal with it...so if that's your logic, please feel free to ignore me. I would hate to upset you.
ch,
Anyone else see the glaring hypocrisy here?
Huh? What are you talking about?
I must add that ace himself may or may not have specifically directed those in disagreement to leave, but that's most assuredly the suggestion others on the church/administration side have given. Repeatedly and openly.
I have NEVER told anyone to (1) leave this forum, or (2) leave Bellevue...where you are getting your information? Don't mention my name to gossip like that, please. Thank you.
Ace,
Did you read my second post? I specifically addressed your concern, pointing out that you personally may or may not have said that. I posted the second time to make it clear that I was not accusing you personally of saying such a thing.
I think my point was quite clear otherwise. Those within the church administration, deacon body and general membership who support Gaines/Dougharty/Taylor et al through all this have essentially proclaimed the very thing you argued against: "If you disagree, then leave."
The fact of the matter is, I have left. Of my own volition, not because anyone asked me to. Technically, my membership is still at Bellevue, but we are no longer attending.
CH
ch,
Did you read my second post? I specifically addressed your concern, pointing out that you personally may or may not have said that.
Yes, I did. But you still said I *may* have said that and I feel the need to clarify for anyone else reading this that I didn't say it and I fall under the "may not" category. Thanks.
Ace,
I apologize. Hypocrisy was not the right word to use. Perhaps dichotomy is more accurate. I was simply using your post to illustrate a point. No intention to smear you or your character. I don't even know who you are.
ch,
No intention to smear you or your character.
Again - thank you - I appreciate it.
Folks,
Let's look at what we are dealing with here.
Hisservant-1
Doesn't consider giving financial aid to a homo-sexual supporting abortion clinic to necessarily be SINFUL.
Ace
Doesn't see a problem with it either.
However, whoever they may be, they are seriously troubled and not well grounded in the faith or have a vastly different faith than I do.
It must be shift change time for hisservant because it has been so long between post. Time for another servant to log in.
No response necessary, just an observation.
Tim,
Doesn't see a problem with it either.
Please support this claim. I never said I agreed with the donation, nor did I say I disagree with it.
Once again, please are putting words in my mouth...
Since I still can't delete, my above post should read:
Tim,
Ace
Doesn't see a problem with it either.
Please support this claim. I never said I agreed with the donation, nor did I say I disagree with it.
Once again, people are putting words in my mouth...
Oh, excuse me Ace doesn't know whether he agrees with it or not.
Now, whoever he/she may be, they are seriously troubled and not well grounded in the faith or have a vastly different faith than I do.
Doesn't consider giving financial aid to a homo-sexual supporting abortion clinic to necessarily be SINFUL.
By the way, have you ever watched a Disney movie? They support gays, don't they? And the money you spend with them likely go to that cause too.
Don't watch movies? Ever go to Wal-Mart, Target, gas stations, etc? Read my above post regarding this topic of spending money with secular companies.
Tim,
Oh, excuse me Ace doesn't know whether he agrees with it or not.
Who says I don't know whether I agree? I have stated I never publicly posted my views. How hard is it to grasp that concept?
And more for Tim:
Now, whoever he/she may be, they are seriously troubled and not well grounded in the faith or have a vastly different faith than I do.
And who are you exactly to rate my walk with Christ?
Choice,
Would you like to go with me to witness to some non-Christians on some other websites?
I have a better idea...how about we meet up at the mall sometime soon and do that? Or we can go door-to-door. Not that there is anything wrong with witness over the internet, I like to do things like that face-to-face.
You seem to me to be very friendly and out-going. You must be very good at witnessing.
I wouldn't say I'm good, but I try my best. I make it a goal of mine to witness to people every week. In fact, I recently just saw 2 people accept Christ. Praise the Lord!
Let me know what day is good for you.
Yes, but I have never walked over and given them a check for $25,000 either. That is called a donation. It means that you support their efforts.
Commerce is quite another thing. I pay for something and I recieve something.
The apostle Paul covered this concerning those that purchased meat that had been sacraficed to idols. Perhaps you think that he was wrong, when he wrote this by inspiration of the Holy Spirit, but I do not. He did not condone contributing to the sacrafice, but he did not condemn purchasing the meat.
And more for Ace:
I don't "rate" your walk with Christ. I stated that you evidently have a faith that is vastly different than mine, if you can neither agree nor disagree with a donation of $25,000 to a cause that is squarely opposed to Biblical principles.
Tim,
I stated that you evidently have a faith that is vastly different than mine, if you can neither agree nor disagree with a donation
Again.....I never said I couldn't agree or disagree with the donation. I simply never posted my opinion on this forum. Really- it isn't *that* hard to understand.
I'm off for now so if you reply, you'll get my response later. I am going to the GREAT BBC to do some stuff. Have a wonderful night, everyone.
Oh, well loyal readers it must be time for an emergency meeting to get the powerpoint presentation on this issue.
I'm sure that we will be getting the logical and reasonible explanation for this little $25,000 opsie later tonite. They just need to make sure that the get their *points* together before commenting.
I understand that it is hard to have opinions before you are told what they are.
The Good Samaritan
Luke 10:30-37
30Jesus replied and said, "A man was going down from Jerusalem to Jericho, and fell among robbers, and they stripped him and beat him, and
went away leaving him half dead.
31"And by chance a priest was going down on that road, and when he saw him, he passed by on the other side.
32"Likewise a Levite also, when he came to the place and saw him, passed by on the other side.
33"But a Samaritan, who was on a journey, came upon him; and when he saw him, he felt compassion,
34and came to him and bandaged up his wounds, pouring oil and wine on them; and he put him on his own beast, and brought him to an inn and took care of him.
35"On the next day he took out two denarii and gave them to the innkeeper and said, 'Take care of him; and whatever more you spend, when I return I will repay you.'
36"Which of these three do you think proved to be a neighbor to the man who fell into the robbers' hands?"
37And he said, "The one who showed mercy toward him." Then Jesus said to him, "Go and do the same."
************************
Perhaps it is safe to only offer help to those who will accept it on our turf and on our terms.
Likewise, perhaps it is risky to be willing to dine with sinners and publicans.
I guess it is easy and safe to take the route of the outwardly pious and overlook the wounds of others while keeping ourselves ceremonially clean.
Likewise, I guess it is risky to to be willing to offer a cup of cold water to the least of these, when the least of these are viewed as unworthy by some.
It is easy to sit in judgment over sinners, while we forget that we are sinners ourselves. Often, we make ourselves feel better because our sin is different from theirs.
Bottom line...
First United Methodist is on the front lines of helping the poor and homeless in this city. While I have strong disagreements with some of their theology, that doesn't mean we are to ignore them in their time of need, nor are we to ignore those they serve in their time of need.
Since the Hurricanes that ravaged the coast, we as a church have spent much money, and much man power showing the love of Christ to those who were hurting. We are still doing that to this day.
We have helped lots of people: Baptist and non-Baptist; Christian and non-Christian. But all we have done we have done in the name of Jesus.
And for that, the Lord assures us, we will not lose our reward.
Ok. What is the infrastucture that will benefit from the CC? What is the plan for the points that are being communicated, being given and received?
Have we sought good counsel with, not pastors who've been "there", and not even BBC people who've "been here" but with a Christian Industrial Psychologist, Special Projects Manager...an outside firm who specializes in change management for large organizations? Like Dr. Rogers always said..."A Big Church has Big Needs."
We need consultation from HR specialists while examining everything they might suggest in the light of God's Truth from His WORD. It is all in the Bible. Truth, Honesty, Integrity, Patience, Kindness, Joy, Long-suffering, God hates pride.
But, we must either put all the personnel back in place that we've lost and let them do their jobs (I personally believe God put those ministers/Staff members here already and we had no right to change that) We need to put them in place alongside our pastor and a steering committee that is perhaps audited by an outside group or we will be facing the truth of devestation and destruction in the wake of flesh's path.
Of course Satan is going to hurt us in the area of music and peace. He was the shining, beautiful creation and leader of music. Then, man and woman came along and they were beautiful as well as cabable of loving Him and He was pleased.
Bellevue has stood for light and truth. Bellevue has extended God's light and truth!
Bellevue has surely been favored and blessed by God. I believe Dr. Roger's was annointed, favored, and blessed, also.
Anyway, we just haven't had our guards up, armed for battle. Have any of you read Captivating? Our church was a sitting duck.
Are we going to rebuke Satan's attack, the claim he's probably boasting?
Were we fasting, praying, seeking God's man for BBC? Are we fasting, praying, seeking God's annointed man now? Stop the in-fighting. Read Proverbs. Dealing with people from a christian standpoint is very simple. Speak the Truth. NO, be SLOW to speak! Then, speak the truth. Quit belittling others. Each person is on a different place in his walk in the faith. Be patient.
There is hope climbing this mountain that, who knows, might even lead BBC to a whole new altitude at the mountaintop and might even include SG. We have NO idea what God wants to do here.
We need to focus on making our church the priority again. What is a church anyway?
1. A venue to worship freely without fear while receiving renewal from the Holy Spirit.
2. A place/time to absorb fellowship with other believers.
3. A practical platform of direction and resources for the ministry of which a Christian church member feels called to by God.
4. A place to grow spiritually through study of God's word.
Forget tithes, forget committees, forget changes. Look to the hills for the man of God with leadership skills, love, and intelligence that are ensconced in humility, integrity and, most importantly, fear of God.
Derrick Calcote said...
The Good Samaritan
Luke 10:30-37
Bottom line...
First United Methodist is on the front lines of helping the poor and homeless in this city. While I have strong disagreements with some of their theology, that doesn't mean we are to ignore them in their time of need, nor are we to ignore those they serve in their time of need.
Since the Hurricanes that ravaged the coast, we as a church have spent much money, and much man power showing the love of Christ to those who were hurting. We are still doing that to this day.
We have helped lots of people: Baptist and non-Baptist; Christian and non-Christian. But all we have done we have done in the name of Jesus.
And for that, the Lord assures us, we will not lose our reward.
Derrick,
If we want to help feed the poor, fine, we should do that. If we want to shelter the homeless, fine, we should do that.
But we should NEVER contribute to the ministry of a apostate church. NEVER.
I sincerely hope that you are not an example of what is within our deacon body. If it is then we have become so theologically corrupt that we have become the apostate church.
Tim,
I agree with you. If Calcote's logic stands, then maybe he would also want to support the Mormon's.
Derrick,
I have a really hard time following your logic...it sounds more like a political spin actually. For the sake of argument here, consider that while this "front lines" church is handing out food or clothing, they are also telling the homosexual community that God ok's their lifestyle...a lifestyle that will kill them, and not only them, but transmit the deadly HIV virus to already pandemic proportions. Think of the young unwed mothers who will come for food and clothing, who are struggling about having an abortion...they get food, clothes, and a "God-sent" go-ahead to murder their unborn children...what about those?...aren't these the real people coming down from Jericho?...but I guess we can spring for some condoms to help the gay community out while we're at it...and provide post-abortion counseling for the young women having nightmares about what's happened to them. Your logic is fallacious.
Derrick,
Nothing personal, but I think that you need to wait for the powerpoint presentation before commenting further.
We could help people in that area any time that we choose without contributing to an apostate church.
I am extremely familar with Life Choices and they may well reconsider whether it is a good idea or not to have you offering any advice.
Sorry, but something that is wrong is just wrong. Our human wisdom can not justify that which is contrary to the Word of God.
I have a friend who went to the church for financial help. After the meeting the staff person said they could not help with any additional funds. When she heard about the Ruth's Chris dinner, she was hurt. She needed he car fixed and now wonders why the church couldn't help, she thoutht their was no money. I guess the dinner was more important than help a member get her car fixed.
Derrick said--
"First United Methodist is on the front lines of helping the poor and homeless in this city. While I have strong disagreements with some of their theology, that doesn't mean we are to ignore them "
Thanks Derrick for that bit of wisdom !!!!!I guess we can now give to any organization that does some GOOD .Let's see, there are several international groups that help the poor with food and also support abortion rights for women in third world countries.I will send a list to BBC so they can give vast amounts of tithe money to these groups.
"Derric said--
Perhaps it is safe to only offer help to those who will accept it on our turf and on our terms.
Likewise, perhaps it is risky to be willing to dine with sinners and publicans.
I guess it is easy and safe to take the route of the outwardly pious and overlook the wounds of others"
By the way since you and the leadership consider those of us whom question these actions and others to be a bunch of sinners why don't you recommend that all of us on this blog receive $25000 each.At least the money the church donates to us will not be used to advise women to have abortions and that the homosexual lifrstyle is good in God's eyes.
The extremes that you and your ilk go through to defend actions like this are astounding :Just how low will you go to defend the leadership!!!Where is your moral compas??????
Derrick,
Since you brought up Life Choices, do you what your dad's opinion is of the $25K to FUMC.
You told me today that those funds came from the Benevolence Fund, in essence not tithes and offerings, but designated gifts, right? If that's true, do you know if the givers to the Benevolence Fund would be upset if they knew where their gifts were going? Or do you know if they sign some kind of agreement that says "Thanks for the gift - we reserve the right to use it wherever we feel like and it may or may not be used at Bellevue or its members".
We also discussed the Benevolence Fund being used for Katrina victims that came to Bellevue. Can you not see the difference in giving designated money to a church that has its own denomination to help them out, not to mention 100% insurance coverage and poor people coming from LA to TN with nothing but the clothes on their backs?
I stand by my statement earlier today: If the check was purely to replenish their clothes closet and food bank, wouldn't IMPACT Ministries been a better place to give the check? I know they are on the list to receive funds from the Love Offering, but with the lower than normal turnout, don't you think that gets pushed down the list or the amount slated would be reduced?
The Messenger or Truth & Light (I can't remember which) just had an article about Moriah House, which is the women's arm of the Memphis Union Mission. The Moriah House is currently building a new facility and will open in March 2007 - they always need funds and it's an organization that is endorsed by Bellevue already. No research was needed to know that the funds would be used for things that Bellevue endorses - food, shelter, medical care, education, clothes, toys, etc. for needy women and their children.
Karen
Brother Derick, maybe you just didn't get enough rest last night. You really should reconsider what they are telling you to say.
So let me get this straight. Instead of doing the Christian thing and provide assistance, your willing to let your differences decide who to help and who not to help?
What if you had for the sake of this arguement, a Muslim neighbor who lost his house in a fire? Would you turn your back on him and his family because of their beliefs or would you open your arms to him and use this as an opportunity to spread the Gospel and be Christlike.
Seems like theres some hypocrasy on this side of the battle by some people besides the Bellevue leadership.
QUESTIONS:
Did Bellevue Baptist Church donate $25000.00 to a church who supports abortion. homosexuality. gay marriages, women in authority over men, planned parenthood, sex before marriage, women pastors and more?
How many times has Bellevue Baptist Church donated funds to this church and/or other churches and organizations that support anti-Christ missions?
Does Bellevue Baptist Church give an official statement of church donations to it`s membership?
Who gives an account for church donations?
Has Bellevue Baptist Church ever donated cars. vans. or any other type of transportation to anti-Christ churches or organization?
Who is keeping the records on donations made to Bellevue Baptist Church that come in a form other than money?
Is their a record of where those donations have been donated?
Are any money donations made to Bellevue Baptist Church or donations of goods going to anyone who does not need it?
Are any money donations made to Bellevue Baptist Church or donations of goods going to any person on staff?
How are estate donations handled?
Derrick said--
"First United Methodist is on the front lines of helping the poor and homeless in this city. While I have strong disagreements with some of their theology, that doesn't mean we are to ignore them "
Thanks Derrick for that bit of wisdom !!!!!I guess we can now give to any organization that does some GOOD .Let's see, there are several international groups that help the poor with food and also support abortion rights for women in third world countries.I will send a list to BBC so they can give vast amounts of tithe money to these groups.
"Derric said--
Perhaps it is safe to only offer help to those who will accept it on our turf and on our terms.
Likewise, perhaps it is risky to be willing to dine with sinners and publicans.
I guess it is easy and safe to take the route of the outwardly pious and overlook the wounds of others"
By the way since you and the leadership consider those of us whom question these actions and others to be a bunch of sinners why don't you recommend that all of us on this blog receive $25000 each.At least the money the church donates to us will not be used to advise women to have abortions and that the homosexual lifrstyle is good in God's eyes.
The extremes that you and your ilk go through to defend actions like this are astounding :Just how low will you go to defend the leadership!!!
Again, this is something I can certainly see both sides of.
There are many ways for our church to help those who are in trouble without giving one cent to churches who support abortionists. Any organization, church or otherwise, who help people suck the brains out of babies while they are still living or burn them to death in the womb cannot stand for Christ and His Word. Period. Sound shocking? Do I sound a tad emotional? I am, and so should you be. It is grievous for me to think that one penny of my tithe or any money from my church has been misused in such a horrible way. I have spent my adult life fighting this blight on our nation, and to think that without my consent I have supported such evil will keep me up nights. Deacons and leaders, get the check back, whatever it takes. Eat crow, go hat in hand, blush, stammer...whatever it takes, before the curse of abortion falls on our church.
Is it not enough that more and more states are passing laws legalizing homosexual marriage? Is it not enough that the government has sanctioned the murder of unborn children since the early seventies?...must the church of the Lord Jesus Christ now sanction these things? The blood of the innocent cries out.
And FWIW, I've heard lots of talk that First United Methodist supports all sorts of things, from abortion, to homosexuality, to whatever.
(When I say I've heard it... I've heard it here.) But despite some work with Mr. Google I've not been able to confirm that.
And what I'm stating here as my opinions are my opinions only. I'm not speaking for anyone else but myself, despite what several of you have said.
Does Steve Gaines make all of the financial decions for our Church?
btw...baptismal regeneration is bad theology....homosexuality and abortion are abominations according to the Bible.
This is why we need different members to decide on things like this 25,000.00. The members have no voice in most all decisions. How can we change that? We have just a few men who will not let others share in decisions.
Derrick Calcote said...
Again, this is something I can certainly see both sides of.
Derrick,
There is God's side
and then there is
another side.
I can see both sides too.
I have just planted my feet on God's side of this issue, irregardless of what half-baked decision a pastor may have made.
Does Derrick Calcote have anything to gain financially or otherwise from backing the leadership of Bellevue Baptist Church?
Does he defend abortion?
Does he defend homosexuality?
Does he defend gay marriages?
Does he defend the murder of unborn children?
Does he defend the murder of Christ`s integrity?
Does he help to place the little white crosses out in front of Bellevue Baptist Church to pretend the church is anti-abortion?
Is he a deacon at Bellevue Baptist Church?
Is he a a yes man for the pastor of Bellevue Baptist Church?
Will anyone tolerate Bellevue Baptist Church in an apostate position?
Derrick,
If that is how you feel, maybe you need to turn in your deacon badge.
What we have folks is elder rule by a close knit group of power brokers. The congregation needs to be awakened to this. I agree with Bin Wonderin:
We need:
1. An apology to the congregation for mocking us at Union City. After all, some of us didn't fall off the cabbage truck yesterday!
2. An admission the cheerleader tickets are not a legit moving expense and reimbursement to BBC.
3. An admission Dr. Gaines should have never given $25k to FUMC and an explanation of policy changes to prevent a repeat.
4. A policy for open books on Holy land trips and no overcharging of members. Free tickets for the host and wife are fine but not for anybody else
5. A monthly business meeting with open mike Q&A with each committee chairman. Transcripts on the web within a week;
6. A transparent committee selection process.
7. A good updated set of bylaws similar to GBC.
8. The signing of a public conflict of interest form for any member that has any business contract to provide services to the church. These people should be recused from committees that review bids for their services.
9. No church credit cards. Pay your own way and then turn in an expense report like I do at my job.
AND I would like to add...
10. A business meeting in accord with Matthew 18 to deal with the issues that remain related to Mark Sharpe and "the Dream"... AND any other loose ends that should have been dealt with months ago!!
11. The END of heavy handed dealing with ministers, staff, and members.
12. A whistle blower policy for ministers, staff, and members. Also:
13. Full disclosure of ministerial compensation: salary + benefit breakdown, etc.
14. Much greater congregational oversight of the current budget with a transparent policy for consideration of non-budgeted expenditures exceeding a reasonable amount.
15. Forgiveness for those in leadership who have allowed this to deteriorate to this point--AND consequences for their actions.
This would be agood start in my opinion!
Can someone help me with a more direct link?
I took the advice given and got something totally unrelated.
And I do not speak for Life Choices at all. The only reason I mentioned that I work with them is show where I am coming from.
And again, this is something that can easily see both sides of. In fact it bothered me when I first heard about it.
In my view (again my view) we are helping those in need who have been hurt.
uturn said...
Will anyone tolerate Bellevue Baptist Church in an apostate position?
Uturn,
Obviously, there are some that will and have the ability for the moment to do so.
I DO NOT, AND I WILL NOT, AND I WILL DO EVERYTHING THAT I CAN TO TAKE THAT ABILITY AWAY FROM THOSE THAT DO.
With a little effort perhaps we can turn these fifteen into 95 theses... revival and reform is what we need to pray for at Bellevue.
Derrick, What do you say when our Church failed to help a member get her car fixed, but was ok to go to Ruth's Chris for a fine dinner?
Does Derrick Calcote have anything to gain financially or otherwise from backing the leadership of Bellevue Baptist Church?
No. Not in the least.
Does he defend abortion?
No. No not in the least. But I love and weep for those who have suffered from abortion. Both those lost and those who for some unreal reason have chosen to kill their own child.
Does he defend homosexuality?
No. But I love and pray for those who are engaged in this sin and pray they will come to repentance.
Does he defend gay marriages?
No.
Does he defend the murder of unborn children?
No.
Does he defend the murder of Christ`s integrity?
No.
Is he a deacon at Bellevue Baptist Church?
Yes
Is he a a yes man for the pastor of Bellevue Baptist Church?
No, but I'm sure many disagree.
Derrick- there is a biblical principle that is clear and helpful when making decisions like this....you never do wrong to do right. You don't lie for a "greater good", you don't mistreat people to get what you want, and you don't give money to people who do some social good and help kill babies too.
This is a no-brainer...especially for someone who is supposed to be a spiritual leader in our church.
25+yrs@BBC,
95 theses..maybe... But, I think if we can't get this train back on track. We should bull doze the building down. I would rather Bellevue not exist at all than to have it exist as a church that loves people into hell.
"and you don't give money to people who do some social good and help kill babies too."
I agree.
The only thing I was aware of from a factual point of view is that they have a female pastor.
And despite reading every article I can find on Google about Ms. Wagley, I do not see where she is supporting that.
I can certainly stand corrected.
Did anyone ever hear if Doyle Long was contacted today?
SWAW,
Obviously I must be missing something. Can you please spell it out?
Mr. Deacon wrote:
"NBBCOF?? i just posted that having the same names would cause major issues.
"HISERVANT and HisServant are NOT the same people"
and this twice...
"why does this blog allow multiple people to use the same name. now we have another HISSERVANT on all caps. just more confusion. nothing against you NEW HISSERVANT and welcome. it just makes things even harder to understand and keep straight on here"
I've just looked through all the comments in this thread, and I've seen no one posting as "HISSERVANT." They all say "hisservant." We had two people posting as "david" last week. I was under the impression people had to have unique screen names, but maybe not.
Here's the 1:39 p.m. comment exactly as it appeared on my screen:
hisservant said...
Although I am totally behind our Pastor I have to say that I do have a big problem with the $25000 donation. I think that `s real joke but a costly one.
I also have problems with some of the other things I have seen at the church but I still want to back the pastor as much as I can
1:39 PM, November 20, 2006
You're saying this wasn't you? You know, I would tend to believe you. Whoever wrote that used his "Shift" key, and you've ignored this question for the past two days while never admitting that Steve Gaines could ever do any wrong.
I'm afraid there's nothing I can do about it. Perhaps just change your screen name or use your real name.
Also, it's not necessary to post the same message two or three times. I saw the first copy.
NBBCOF
From UMC.com - this is the latest stance on the United Methodist Church on abortion. They call it end of life health care:
2000
The General Conference adopted "The United Methodist Response to Hospital Mergers" in the Book of Resolutions (pp. 277-278), which says:
"Whereas, a crisis in health care is occurring in communities across the United States because of the ever-increasing number of hospital mergers, and
"Whereas, such mergers often put the availability of AIDS prevention information, fertility services, artificial inseminations, tubal ligations, vasectomies, condom distribution, contraceptive medication and devices, 'morning after' pills, and abortion services at risk; and
"Whereas, such mergers can result in the denial of certain types of end-of-life health care; and
"Whereas, the effect of these mergers is most severe in poorer communities that have limited health care options to begin with; and
"Whereas, these mergers are usually completed, often with the assistance of public money, before the public is even aware they are happening or what the consequences will be;
"Therefore, be it resolved that the General Board of Church and Society and the Women's Division work to alert their constituencies concerning this crisis in reproductive and end-of-life health care, and
"Therefore, be it further resolved that the General Board of Church and Society and the Women's Division expand their health and wholeness public policy advocacy to include this critical issue of reproductive and end-of-life health care; and
"Therefore, be it further resolved that the General Board of Church and Society and the Women's Division work in cooperation with appropriate community groups to make resource materials available to local churches; such materials to include briefing papers, articles, action alerts, sample sermons, and information on gaining legal intervention when necessary to deal with the crisis of increasingly limited reproductive and end-of-life health care in their communities."
Good grief, man, where have you been? Are you trying to tell those reading this blog that you don't know anything about United Methodists? I can't believe a deacon in our church hasn’t read a newspaper in the last twenty years.
The church's current position on abortion, approved by the 2000 delegates, follows. It is found in the Book of Discipline, Social Principles, Paragraph 161J. You can find it on their denominational website, UMC.org.
"Abortion --- The beginning of life and the ending of life are the God-given boundaries of human existence. While individuals have always had some degree of control over when they would die, they now have the awesome power to determine when and even whether new individuals will be born. Our belief in the sanctity of unborn human life makes us reluctant to approve abortion. But we are equally bound to respect the sacredness of the life and well-being of the mother, for whom devastating damage may result from an unacceptable pregnancy. In continuity with the past Christian teaching, we recognize tragic conflicts of life with life that may justify abortion, and in such cases support the legal option of abortion under proper medical procedures. Therefore, a decision concerning abortion should be made only after thoughtful and prayerful consideration by the parties involved, with medical, pastoral, and other appropriate counsel."
From UMC.com - this is the latest stance on the United Methodist Church on homosexuality:
Church to Be in Ministry to Persons of All Sexual Orientations
WHEREAS, we affirm our belief in the inestimable worth of each individual because we are human beings created by God and loved through and by Jesus Christ, and we affirm all persons as equally valuable in the sight of God (Preamble to Social Principles and ¶ 65G and 66, The Book of Discipline 1996); and
WHEREAS, baptism is God's gift of unmerited grace through the Holy Spirit and marks the entrance of persons into the church and its ministries of love, justice, and service (¶ 310, The Book of Discipline 1996); and
WHEREAS, we affirm that through baptism God has made us members of one body of Christ so that all who follow Jesus have spiritual gifts to share for the common good (1 Corinthians 12:4-27); and
WHEREAS, in addressing the nurturing function of Christian fellowship, our United Methodist Social Principles assert that human sexuality is a complex gift of which we have limited understanding (¶ 161G); and
WHEREAS, we believe that homosexual persons no less than heterosexual persons are individuals of sacred worth and that all persons need the ministry and guidance of the church in their struggles for human fulfillment, as well as the spiritual and emotional care of a fellowship that enables reconciling relationships with God, with others, and with self (¶ 161G); and
WHEREAS, an individual confronting his or her own minority sexual orientation and/or that of a close family member, friend, or associate often experiences isolation, confusion, and fear when he or she needs information, guidance, and support ("Teens at Risk," The Book of Resolutions 2000); and
WHEREAS, we recognize that teens dealing with questions about sexual orientation are at a greater risk for suicide ("Teens at Risk," The Book of Resolutions 2000); and
WHEREAS, the teachings and actions of Jesus demonstrated radical inclusion of those rejected by mainstream society; and
WHEREAS, a resolution was adopted at General Conference, 1996, which issued a call to our churches to reach out in love and compassion to all persons, regardless of sexual orientation, becoming beacons of love in a stormy sea of hatred, discrimination, and violence ("Call for a Rebirth of Compassion," The Book of Resolutions 2000); and
WHEREAS, we are called to renew our commitment to become faithful witnesses to the gospel, not alone to the ends of the earth, but also the depths of our common life and work (Preamble to the Social Principles),
Therefore, be it resolved, that The United Methodist Church dedicate itself to a ministry of Christ-like hospitality and compassion to persons of all sexual orientations, and to a vision of unity through openness to the spiritual gifts of all those who have been baptized into the Body of Jesus Christ. Such ministry and openness may include: welcoming sexual minorities, their friends, and families into our churches and demonstrating our faith in a loving God; a willingness to listen and open our hearts to their stories and struggles in our churches, districts, annual conferences, and General Conference; encouraging study and dialogue around issues of sexuality; and praying for all those who are in pain and discord over our Christian response to this controversial issue.
ADOPTED 2000
FOLKS,
I think that the powerpoint presentation was scheduled for either tonite at 7:30 or tomorrow nite at 7:30 to cover the talking *points*.
Either way will be getting the official
COW DUDDIE
in the next day or so.
Heard enough yet, Derrick?
Tim,
What did I miss? What meeting/talking points?
Thanks! Karen
Karen,
It was a joke, perhaps poor, but I made myself laugh anyway. It sure beats sitting here and starting to cry. :{)
Tim,
SILLY! :)
Take heart Tim,
It made me laugh...I sure needed one. Thanks.
Tim- Even though you are kidding, you might not be far from the truth when it comes to talking points. It seems that the different CC members have the same responses to members in different groups. For example, how many CC members have told different groups that this FUMC abortion fiasco was "a mistake of the head, not the heart." It seems that their responses come from a centralized source.
I was certainly not aware those were the positions of the UMC. One reason I didn't is that I attended a United Methodist Church with my family until I was 14, and certainly never heard anything like that taught.
Psalm 43:3,
Part joke, Part truth. The biggest thing that got me started to really question the truth was poking around a bit and hearing the exact same "zombie hypnotic" responses. What really got me was that the goofy responses that I heard didn't even make any sense. I began thinking to myself, surely all these people didn't think up the same igrnorant ideas all at the same time. Somebody will just blast my brains out for saying it like that, but it is exactly what I thought.
And let me further state for the sake of clarity that if 1st United Methodist holds to these teachings on abortion, I would certainly be opposed to the donation to them.
Derrick,
You have no idea how glad that I am to hear you say that.
This is something that was done at the direction of our leadership. This is an example of the things that many on this blog have been so concerned about.
I plead with you to seek the truth in this and other matters. There are other deacon brothers that are aware of this and other things as well. Please seek them out and investigate. Just my humble suggestion.
Derrick
You have blown my mind --
At the old BBC I was taught that support of organizations that supported abortions and homosexual marrige was wrong no questions about it.
Now I leard from the new BBC that we should see both sides and that if a organization does some good it's a good thing to give money to further these apostate churches and their unGodly causes.
I am shocked that you sir can be so AMORAL and call yourself a spiritial leader ,you should be ashamed of yourself, but then you must not have any shame outherwise
how could you say the things you have said on this blog. As of today my tithes will no longer go to BBC.
Tim,
Thanks. I've taken a rather radical step to find out first hand what their position on this is.
I hope to discover that while they obviously hold some liberal doctrine I would not agree with (having a female pastor) that on this most important issue they hold the only correct position, as in the Methodist church I was spent my childhood in.
Derrick,
I am doing the happy Snoopy dance!!
You have shown great candor, valor and courage as you've "taken in the neck" (as my dad says) today.
What's the next step? I don't mean you have to have a huge plan in mind already, but are you going to do something with the information you've gained tonight.
Thanks! Karen
dontbeatthesheep,
I think that you missed Derrick's last post.
DBTS,
I hope to learn that 1st UMC does not hold these positions.
If they do, I will certainly be upset that we gave them money.
Derrick,
Call Christ United Methodist Church and ask them. They will tell you what FUMC stands for.
Karen
Karen,
All I can do is participate in candor, which I always try to do.
To answer your question, if I learn that 1st UMC does hold an ungodly position on abortion, what would be my next step?
I would seek to make sure we have some more realistic safeguards in place to make sure this same mistake isn't made again.
Exactly how I'd go about it, I'd have to think on a bit, but I'd think the first step would be to voice my displeasure with the decision to those above me.
Derrick,
YES! Thank you! I pray for you as you go to the leadership. I hope they accept what you're saying what you know to be truth now and don't try to dissuade you in your new found belief.
Good for you, Derrick!
Derrick,
If your research agrees with what is stated on this blog, what will you say to the deacons?
Derrick Calcote said...
DBTS,
I hope to learn that 1st UMC does not hold these positions.
If they do, I will certainly be upset that we gave them money.
8:21 PM, November 20, 2006
Derrick
When you search the web page of that church you will realize why I am so outraged over this issue.
May I assume that you will share the outrage so many of us have over this once you verify we have the correct facts concerning FUMC?
I will be ths first to shake your hand if you you take a stand against this.
Has anyone heard if anything was said to Brother Long today?
DBTS,
You'll have to help me. I've looked at their website and don't see anything about abortion on there.
http://www.firstchurchmemphis.org/
What am I missing?
For those of you that may not have seen.Here is the latest letter from Chuck Taylor to the deacons.
Subject: Deacon Information from Chuck Taylor
Dear Brother Deacons,
I am so encouraged by the positive feedback we are hearing from the many meetings that are taking place between the Communications Committee and various groups and individuals in our church. God is using our Deacons and Communications Committee to help our brothers and sisters in these challenging days. It is so important that we each go about this ministry both prayerfully and humbly. In that spirit, the Deacon Officers decided not to bring the motion to the congregation this coming Sunday but want to do it when it will be the greatest blessing to our Church and Pastor. You will be hearing more about the motion in the near future. If you have any questions, please contact your Vice Chairman. Thank you for all you’re doing to be used of God to bring peace and healing.
Chuck
Having heard that some deacons resigned rather than sign this.I wonder if these courageous men who resigned rather than sign this will be reinstated as deacons?
I would really like to know who and how came up with the dichotomy..."mistake of the mind, not the heart"?
Matt 9:4 "Knowing their thoughts, Jesus said, 'Why do you entertain evil thoughts in your heart?'"
Matt 15:19 "For out of the heart come evil thoughts, murder, adultery, sexual immorality,theft, false testimony, slander."
As I understand it, this letter is based in simple mathematics. A little over eighty deacons (less than half) signed the loyalty oath by last Friday. Couple this with the fact that over fifty deacons met off-campus (they were not allowed to meet at the church) to discuss their discontent with the pledge, and suddenly it is clear that Chuck Taylor and those who follow him could embarrass themselves in front of the church. Simply put, they were not operating from a position of power. The real question now is where the fifty or so deacons who are in the middle will land.
It is my sincere hope that they will give us warning before such a display so I can plan to be absent.
I think if and when the day comes that they decide to stand in support of the Pastor that all Deacons that do not stand for the pledge should wait until after the other sit and then all rise and in unison say AND WE DO NOT. In front of the entire congregation. There will be no question then and no uninformed members. Everyone will then know that we are in a true crisis. Maybe at that time a business meeting could then be initiated. There is NO way this is going to work its way out unless we bring this before the entire congregation at a time and place of our choosing and NOT the Administration's. They must be unprepared unscripted and out of sync. Only then will their true nature be exposed. What do you think that Pastor Gaines' reaction would be to an attempt to stop the service? Would he react in a loving fashion or would he attempt to quell any dissent? Attempt to force anyone who stood up out of the service? If he did such a thing it would only prove out the dire state the church is in. Slowly as evidence gathers the lowly members will gain the ability to force the hands of the Administration with the help of the Deacons and anyone else in the Administration who is not happy. Is it possible that if SG is ousted or an attempt is made to do so that any and all of those Non-Disclosure agreements could be nullified? If we could get those people to speak out about the true nature of their "calling" away from Bellevue and stand with us what could we accomplish?
And FWIW, I've heard lots of talk that First United Methodist supports all sorts of things, from abortion, to homosexuality, to whatever.
(When I say I've heard it... I've heard it here.) But despite some work with Mr. Google I've not been able to confirm that.
Derrick Calcote please read and prayerfully consider. Thanks.
This LINK is a news story about a "Clergywomen's Consultation".
The consultation was organized by a 19-member design team, co-chaired by the Rev. Martha Wagley.
Martha Wagley is the senior pastor of FUMC.
In the 1990's she was Senior Pastor of Germantown United Methodist Church.
She was removed from GUMC because her liberal sermons turned
the graph of weekly giving into something akin to a ski slope. Call your friends at GUMC for confirmation about Rev. Wagley, that's what I did.
Here is a bit of the flavor of what went on at the Clergywomen's Consultation that Rev. Wagley was co chair of:
Monday night, Bishop Judith Craig (retired) electrified the gathering with her sermon during the memorial service,
when she described how women kept “knocking on the church’s door” until ordained ministry was opened to them. Her sermon proved so effective that throughout the remainder of the event, participants frequently could be seen making a knocking gesture to signify closed doors in the church that still need to be opened.
On Tuesday morning, supporters for the inclusion of homosexual people lined the hallway leading to the main convention hall,
singing “Seek Ye First the Kingdom of God.” Participants often made the “knocking” gesture from Bishop Craig’s sermon as
they passed through the lines of singers. The music led participants toward exhibits of closed doors where they were
invited to sign and distribute a “bloody knuckle” petition for inclusion of gay, lesbian, bisexual and transgendered people.
“Bloody knuckle” refers to the three decades during which many United Methodists have been “knocking” to get the
UMC to drop its exclusionary stances. [Bin's Comment: I would say "Biblical stances"]
With respect to abortion, former members of Germantown Methodist have told me Rev. Wagley supports a woman's right to choose. I *cannot* find this in writing on the web either. It is possible, although unlikely, my GUMC friends are mistaken or lying to me. They related a story that a member of GUMC wanted to host meetings of a pro-life group using GUMC facilities. I can't remember the group name. Rev. Wagley denied the use of the facilities because it was a pro-life group. She also forbade the group that plants those little white crosses in front of churches to do that at GUMC.
With respect to Rev. Wagley advocating gay/lesbian/transegender people being ordained as ministers, that is a documented fact. She has appeared on local TV news station interviews advocating that the United Methodists ordain gay/lesbian/transgender ministers. Even if my friends are wrong and she is pro-life the pro-gay stances she takes are apostate.
A former GUMC member also relayed another story about Rev. Wagley. A Sunday school teacher was teaching his class (ironically the class was called the “Wesley Class in honor of Charles Wesley) that the resurrection never really happened. It was a metaphor, and Jesus was a Son of God just like you and I are sons of God, all roads lead to heaven etc. etc. etc. He asked Rev. Wagley to remove the person from teaching. She refused.
Please – if you have any doubts investigate this yourself with former members of GUMC. Don’t take my word for it.
I cannot say if these are the doctrine positions of FUMC, but they are the what the Senior Pastor of FUMC advocates.
I hope this helps.
b.w.
Thanks for sharing that. If proven correct, that disturbs me a great deal. I'm indeed taking your advice in digging deeper on this.
One more thing - there are committed Christians at Germantown UMC that prayed and petitioned their bishops to remove Rev. Wagley from their midst. Methodidts don't choose their preacher and can't fire one either.
churchmouse wrote:
"deacon_thats_a_beacon said:
'I must let you know that among the good ole’ boys network there has been a well thought out plan to enter and post on the blog in an effort to create further confusion. I believe that someone has been referred to on the blog as rope-a-dope and it is a phrase that I had already heard before I began seeing it on the blog. I state this to issue a warning to the posters on the blog to beware of traps that are being set. I would refer to those that are engaged in this activity as wolves in sheep’s clothing.'
"Please! Why are we cluttering our blog arguing with hisservant, HISSERVANT, HisServant, Hi$$ervant #2, etc. These people are causing us to fill our blog with dribble. Trying to read all this is like walking in quicksand. The good commentary is getting lost. Let's fix this. Come on! They have to be laughing at us."
Thank you, churchmouse! You voiced my exact feelings (and deacon_thats_a_beacon before you). Everyone, please just stop feeding the trolls!
NBBCOF
I have been led to believe our missions budget is spent with the same carelessness and lack of discernment as was exhibited in the donation fiasco. Someone correct me if I am wrong, but some of the same folks on the Finance Committee who approved this donation have been heavily involved in the missions spending through the years.
I can't give specifics because I would inevitably get some of the details wrong. While we are sweeping out the barn I suggest we examine this to ensure appropriate safeguards are in place or implemented. Actually, all of our spending needs appropriate safeguards.
My information on this comes from two men with intimate involvment in this area for years. I first learned of this problem in August of 2005, so Dr. Gaines cannot be blamed for this. I have no firsthand information, so if this proves incorrect or distorted, I apologize ahead of time.
(I added some thoughts to this earlier post)
Ok. What is the infrastucture that will benefit from the CC? What is the plan for the points that are being communicated, being given and received?
Have we sought good counsel with, not pastors who've been "there", and not even BBC people who've "been here," but with a Christian Industrial Psychologist, Special Projects Manager, etc....an outside firm which specializes in change management for large organizations? Like Dr. Rogers always said..."A Big Church has Big Needs."
We need consultation from project specialists while examining everything they might suggest in the light of God's Truth from His WORD. It is all in the Bible. Truth, Honesty, Integrity, Patience, Kindness, Joy, Long-suffering, God hates pride.
But, we must either put all the personnel back in place that we've lost and let them do their jobs (I personally believe God put those ministers/Staff members here already and we had no right to change that) (In the least, former staff members could be invited to reapply.)
We need to put them in place alongside our pastor and a steering committee that is working with the project specialists to arrive at a single purpose (not necessarily a unified purpose, but the God-directed purpose and plan) so, we will not end up facing the truth of devastation and destruction in the wake of flesh's path.
Of course Satan is going to hurt us in the area of music and peace. Prior to his fall, he was the shining, beautiful creation and leader of music. Then, God created man and woman, and they were beautiful as well as cabable of loving Him and He was pleased.
Bellevue has stood for light and truth. Bellevue has extended God's light and truth!
Bellevue has surely been favored and blessed by God. I believe Dr. Roger's was annointed, favored, and blessed, also.
Anyway, we just haven't had our guards up, armed for battle. Have any of you read the Eldredge book, enttitled Captivating? She, our church, was a sitting duck.
Are we going to rebuke Satan's attack, the claim he's probably boasting?
Were we fasting, praying, seeking God's man for BBC? Are we fasting, praying, seeking God's annointed man now? Stop the in-fighting. Read Proverbs. Dealing with people from a christian standpoint is very simple. Speak the Truth. NO, be SLOW to speak! Then, speak the truth. Quit belittling others. Each person is on a different place in his walk in the faith. Be patient.
There is hope climbing this mountain that, who knows, might even lead BBC to a whole new altitude at the mountaintop and might even include SG. We have NO idea what God wants to do here.
We need to focus on making our church the priority again. What is a church anyway?
1. A venue to worship freely without fear while receiving renewal from the Holy Spirit.
2. A place/time to absorb fellowship with other believers.
3. A practical platform of direction and resources for the ministry of which a Christian church member feels called to by God.
4. A place to grow spiritually through study of God's word.
Forget tithes, forget committees, forget changes. Look to the hills, and expect God's man who has leadership skills, love, and intelligence that are ensconced in humility, integrity and, most importantly, fear of God Himself.
HOOTS,
Thanks for the kind words.
I've always said that if there is a legitmate issue out there I am more than willing to address it.
To me this is certainly a legitmate issue. And with no offense meant to anyone here, once I can determine the validity of this for myself I will certainly address it.
What can be done about this at this point, I really don't know. My wish would be that this could be undone.
At this point I am going to do what I've always suggested others do. Handle this using the proper channels by talking directly to those involved.
In my opinion I have already sinned by failing to do that. It was not my intention when I engaged in this conversation, but looking back on it I have. It is something I need repent of and seek to make right.
Derrick,
FWIW I disagree with some, but certainly not all, of your conclusions, but I love your integrity and heart. I don't expect everyone to agree with my positions on this conflict at Bellevue. I do expect civility and honesty from our leaders. You have exhibited both and you always appeal to our better angels.
Thank you
koragg posted: So let me get this straight. Instead of doing the Christian thing and provide assistance, your willing to let your differences decide who to help and who not to help?
What if you had for the sake of this arguement, a Muslim neighbor who lost his house in a fire? Would you turn your back on him and his family because of their beliefs or would you open your arms to him and use this as an opportunity to spread the Gospel and be Christlike.
Seems like theres some hypocrasy on this side of the battle by some people besides the Bellevue leadership.
REPLY: interesting post! I wonder why everyone is ignoring it and not responding? anyone care to respond??
Barrister,
One note, you used the word "leader" I think in reference to me.
As a deacon, that is not a title I am comfortable with, nor do I think it is biblical.
So while I sincerly apprecaite what you said, I think that "servant" is a more appropriate title.
Thanks
25+yrs posted: 13. Full disclosure of ministerial compensation: salary + benefit breakdown, etc.
REPLY: totally disagree.
NBBCOF,
I've just looked through all the comments in this thread, and I've seen no one posting as "HISSERVANT." They all say "hisservant."
Click on the profile name of the post @ 1:39 PM, November 20, 2006
Now click on hisservant-1's profile. You'll notice they are two different people. The 1:39 post should be deleted.
Just like there are factions of United Methodists that are not preaching the things that Martha Wagley are there are Muslims who don't hold to the beliefs that radical Middle eastern muslims hold. Hopefully, in your for instance you would know your neighbor well enough to know whether he and his family were the type that would sooner see you dead at their hands for being an infidel or whether they were moderate and didn't hold the belief that it was better to die by their own hand for their faith than live side by side with you. As you can see your arguement isn't an easy one. My position on this donation aside from the fact that I don't believe it is right to support their ministry with 25k$ in donations, is that it should have been voted on. With all facts out in the open. There would surely be people on both sides but the point is the process would be transparent. People would know what was happening. I do not for one second doubt that we as a church would have made some form of gesture or outreach to this church. As many have stated it is the christlike thing to do to reach out to these people but not in the way we have not as enablers of their flawed views.
choice,
You are not face-to-face here.
I am aware of that. But I have a feeling if I were to sit in a room with all of you folks you would beat me up with a baseball bat... ;)
Surely if you can spare a whole day to come here you must have a few minutes to witness to people also.
Who is to say I don't do that? I can assure you I make it a goal of mine to witness on a regular basis. Every single week.
Wouldn't that be better stewardship of your time? How can you justify to the Lord that you spent so much time today with people who you seem to think insult you and hurt your feelings and are unkind and libelous and slanderous and gossipy etc etc?
Yes, it probably would be a better use of my time. That should always be a better use of my time, no matter what I'm doing...I should be spreading the word of God and the message of His Grace constantly. How would I justify it to the Lord? Hmm... Do you think God is angry with me for supporting what I truly believe in? Is He upset with me for taking a stand? Or should I sit back and watch everyone here bad-mouth my church, and my PASTOR? I'm not going to stand in silence, I can guarantee you that.
What about everyone else? Couldn't everybody else be witnessing too? You see, this issue isn't only about Ace.
Unless you are on a paycheck and you have been instructed to be here I can't honestly see why you would take what you say is constant abuse from total strangers.
If you are on a pay check you should disclose that to us.
Paycheck from who? Bellevue?
If you are a paid representative then that means that we should conduct our conversations with you in a different way.
Again, please clarify.
People who are lurking need to understand why you are so sure about your postions. Has it come from seeking truth or seeking money?
It's all about the Truth. Nothing but it!
Derrick,
Point taken and I agree.
I first interjected my opinions in this conflict after reading the Phil Weatherwax correspondence with Josh Manning. I sent the same email to every deacon. While that seems like a long time ago, I remember each deacon who responded and the content of their response. Yours was one of the civil responses and I took note of that.
For the record, roughly 1/2 of the deacon respondents indicted agreement with my viewpoint. 1/4 of the respondents were civil, but disagreed with me. The final 1/4 disagreed and were uncivil about it. Only 11% responded at all.
Derrick,
I have to follow up on WTB's wise words. The reason I initially contacted you out of all the deacons was that your response to the Gremillions was the only one I felt had any compassion for the writer of the email.
I think we on this blog (for the most part - I won't attempt to speak for everyone) appreciate your commitment to Truth.
Thanks! Karen
As one who is a Methodist, I appreciate the comments that have expressed the true concept that all Methodists are not alike in their viewpoints.
Bellevue and Christ United Methodist certainly would have a great deal more in common. But, is that a reason not to help out a congregation that is a neighbor?
Would it be o.k. if Bellevue gave a donation to the moderate First Baptist Church of Memphis if they were in the same circumstance?
I believe the gift is a nice gesture on Bellevue's part toward another church in the city. But, the downside is that the use of the money will be under the control of someone whose views on social issues are quite different from the "religious right."
Who dares to say what Jesus would do???
WTB,
Good points as usual. Btw, did you get my email? Blessings.
koragg posted: So let me get this straight. Instead of doing the Christian thing and provide assistance, your willing to let your differences decide who to help and who not to help?
What if you had for the sake of this argument, a Muslim neighbor who lost his house in a fire? Would you turn your back on him and his family because of their beliefs or would you open your arms to him and use this as an opportunity to spread the Gospel and be Christ like.
Seems like there’s some hypocrisy on this side of the battle by some people besides the Bellevue leadership.
It is a flawed comparison. The analogy is this: If a downtown mosque that had fire insurance burned, would we cut them a check for $25,000? How about a planned parenthood office? Soup kitchen that is humanist? Clothing closet that is gnostic?
Your question also implies there is no other way for the people FUMC served to get food and shelter. There are other good sound Bible teaching Bible believing ministries downtown. We could have given them $25k to pick up the FUMC slack.
Who should our money support, an apostate charity or a Bible believing one? That is the question.
I think you and I agree. I would have much rather had a vote with all issues of their ministry known and possibly other options for outreach and support. For instance I know and have supported their FirtWorks mission in the recent past. Again I believe we would have made some gesture but unfortunately the leaders of our church seem to think they can go willy nilly doing what they please without much thought.
Maybe heretical is a more appropriate description than apostate. Either way they got the $25k.
Allofgrace,
I saw your excellent comments on my site, but I don't see an email. When did you send it?
I agree with you that at the very least this is an accountability issue. However, given the other lapses in judgement it leads me to believe that this is just a symptom of a larger problem with the leadership.
phil413,
I don't know if you noticed my post or not but I wanted to make sure that I had not offended you in my response from the other day.
David,
For ideas such as those, the committee could make a list of pro's/con's and questions to resolve, then split up the questions among the members, agree to meet back within a week and bring all the info. to the table for a vote as to whether or not to go forward and how to go forward. (special offering or mission funds, etc.)
Or, you could have an "emergency donation" committee to have meetings with the Pastor and finance committee to deal with church fires, hurricane relief or whatever.
Not to be combative, but there are two problems of the 25K gift- not only that it was given, but the way in which it was given- supposedly in ignorance. SG has an earned Ph.D. from a major seminary and has been in ministry for many years. It would be hard to convince me that he is ignorant of United Methodism. To say that it was a mistake of the head rings hollow. How could seemingly intelligent men make such a mistake, unless it wasn't a mistake. I cannot believe that these men could be so careless, and so I must believe the gift was intentional.
this stuff about Dr. Rogers saying certain things to Brother Steve bother me greatly. they bother me much more than anything else.
I Mrs Rogers in the hall on Sunday morning. What a true woman of God she is. I do not believe for one minute that she would be walking through the halls of Bellevue and or singing in the choir if anything even close to this would have ever happened. there are plenty of rumors etc going around, but this one upsets me and makes me sick to my stomach.
Can we please just not even give those evil rumors 2 more seconds on this blog or anyone else.
I think the person that posted this stuff should be ashamed.
Mrs. Rogers was not singing in the choir yesterday.
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