Saturday, November 25, 2006

Communications Committee Meeting at 8:00 Sunday

It's now after the meeting. If you were there, please give your impressions.

The Communications Committee said they'd begin at 8:00 tomorrow morning (November 26th) instead of the usual 8:30. They meet in the first room on the right down the hallway to the left of the ERC and Fellowship Hall. There were at least 75 people there last week. We need to be there this week -- in great numbers! Go with an open mind and a pen and notepad to take notes and remember to be respectful if you're going to ask a question.

423 comments:

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GBC_Member said...

Then you should've had no problem in knocking it over. The fact that you didn't even attempt to address it, for whatever reason or reasons, speaks volumes.

Mike - why do you feel the need to taunt and insult me like that?

I feel that I did rebut the strawman in my initial post, but I will be more direct. Your straw-man suggests that helping an individual is identical to helping an organization regardless of their agenda. That there is no difference between helping an individual in need and offering fungible assets to an organization that promotes beliefs BBC does not agree with. Your argument is that giving of your time to help a man with a flat tire is identical to giving your money to an organization that promotes a sinful agenda. That if you would do one you should also do the other. Further, your straw-man implies that all humanitarian organizations are created equal, and that the agenda they promote is unimportant. Finally it assumes that FUMC and only FUMC is able to serve those with humanitarian needs.

There are organizations that serve the population FUMC serves that also teach Biblical truth. One of these organizations would have been a better recipient of the $25,000. Others – like FUMC – promote a non biblical agenda while they offer humanitarian services. We have funded the spreading of lies about abortion and homosexuality.

The fact of the matter is that BBC could have given to a Memphis Bible believing organization that serves the same population as FUMC. They didn’t. This would have been the better option.

Mike - do you really think BBC should fund church plants that teach Abortion and homosexuality are acceptable in the eyes of God as long as the church also runs a soup kitchen? Why not a church plant that offers a soup kitchen along with living water and the bread of life?

Anonymous said...

Contractor said...
Flatfoot said...

As for the fence issue, he has apologized already for that.

REPLY

The fence jumping event has been apologized for but here is what the incident revealed:

The pastor is ready, willing and able to lie to the congregation whenever he feels the need or desire to do so.

The pastor is ready, willing,and able to demonize anyone who dare ask him a question whenever he feels the need or desire to do so.

The pastor is ready, willing,and able to vent his anger on anyone who dare to comfront him whenever he feels the need or desire to do so.

The pastor is ready, willing,and able to break the law whenever he feels the need or desire to do so.

The pastor is ready, willing,and able to turn others against those that question him or confront him whenever he feels the need or desire to do so.

The pastor is ready, willing,and able to hold a grudge whenever he feels the need or desire to do so.

The pastor is ready, willing,and able to procrastinate an apology when he knows he was wrong and in his wrongness causes many offenses.

The pastor is ready, willing,and able to scatter the sheep whenever he feels the need or desire to do so.

And there is so much more that this one incident taught us about the man who is our pastor.

He did this to one in his flock.

Yes, he aologized to Mark Sharpe for jumping the fence and calling him Hezzbolah but we are left with a Portrait of just who our pastor is and it isn`t pretty.

Tim said...

bin wonderin,

Excellant post. It is a pity that you have to go into so much detail to get such a simple point across. Don't hold your breath expecting any one to understand it that doesn't already however.

Anonymous said...

Mike Bratton, would you please tell us why you continue to refer to some of the members at our church as ANTi BELLEVUE?

Tim said...

blessmewiththetruth,

Mike has a hard time understanding the english language.

Anti-means against. I think any reasonable individual would realize that those of us who are aware of problems at Bellevue and are seeking answers and solutions are anything but against Bellevue. The fact of the matter is that those that do nothing are the ones that will do the most harm.

Of course this phrase comes from the same fellow that has chose to view FUMC as pro-food.

Anonymous said...

binwondering said,

"There are organizations that serve the population FUMC serves that also teach Biblical truth. One of these organizations would have been a better recipient of the $25,000. Others – like FUMC – promote a non biblical agenda while they offer humanitarian services. We have funded the spreading of lies about abortion and homosexuality."

Where, exactly, is your proof that we funded the spreading of lies about abortion and homosexuality with the donation to FUMC?

We're not talking about humanitarian causes. We're talking about a church that proclaims Jesus Christ as the Way, the Truth, and the Life -- the only way to salvation. That is the gospel in its essence, is it not? And the other "causes" you mention that might have been more fitting beneficiaries of a donation from BBC? I don't remember reading that any of them burned completely to the ground, totally halting all the ways they touch and help others. The donation may be fungible, but God can make it nonfungible and can apply every penny of our money -- wait ... HIS money ... to build His kingdom. Are we, in faith, asking Him to do so and believing that He will? Or are we going to micromanage this issue to the other side of eternity until it's paraded in front of us as the nonissue that it really may be?

I say this out of absolutely no respect to those of you who oppose the donation. But really ... can we not move on? What "pound of flesh" will ultimately satisfy you?

Anonymous said...

Hey, slurs are fun, aren't they? Especially when the guy you're slinging them at (which would be me, for those of you scoring at home) doesn't know who you are!

Don't discuss issues, tell me I have "a hard time understanding the english language." And when you can't address what I have to say, don't worry about it--just anonymously pat one another on the back.

You might have noticed that the mindset, not the individuals who currently share it, is what's anti-Belleuve. It's the mindset that attacks a pastor from the shadows, that can't accept an apology that didn't even have to be offered, that won't rest until careers have been destroyed.

There is hope for people ensnared in such a view of the world, though--which is why I take great pains to criticize the viewpoint only, even though those who hold it aren't nearly so restrained in their replies.

--Mike

Anonymous said...

maybejustmaybe said...
binwondering said,

"There are organizations that serve the population FUMC serves that also teach Biblical truth. One of these organizations would have been a better recipient of the $25,000. Others – like FUMC – promote a non biblical agenda while they offer humanitarian services. We have funded the spreading of lies about abortion and homosexuality."

Where, exactly, is your proof that we funded the spreading of lies about abortion and homosexuality with the donation to FUMC?

We're not talking about humanitarian causes. We're talking about a church that proclaims Jesus Christ as the Way, the Truth, and the Life -- the only way to salvation. That is the gospel in its essence, is it not? And the other "causes" you mention that might have been more fitting beneficiaries of a donation from BBC? I don't remember reading that any of them burned completely to the ground, totally halting all the ways they touch and help others. The donation may be fungible, but God can make it nonfungible and can apply every penny of our money -- wait ... HIS money ... to build His kingdom. Are we, in faith, asking Him to do so and believing that He will? Or are we going to micromanage this issue to the other side of eternity until it's paraded in front of us as the nonissue that it really may be?

I say this out of absolutely no respect to those of you who oppose the donation. But really ... can we not move on? What "pound of flesh" will ultimately satisfy you?


Well put. The responses will be informative.

--Mike

Anonymous said...

Also, in my opinion, anti-Bellevue implies that ultimately, all this naysaying, finger-pointing, and keeping of records of wrongs against our Pastor will destroy our beloved church. If it hasn't already.

Anonymous said...

I remember when i first started at BBC, we were encouraged to not donate to the United Way, b/c of their pro-abortion stance. After reading some of this blogs posts, how can the FUMC donation be justified. I know an apology was given at BBC Sun morn, but some here are still defending the donation. I was wondering why?

Custos said...

Thanks, cJesus. Your encouragement is such a sweet thing.

Tim said...

mike,

If you call any one here anti-Bellevue then it proves that you have a hard time understanding something, perhaps you could explain what that would be.

I believe that I was giving you the benefit of the doubt by explaining the meaning of the word anti to you. Of course, if you already know the meaning and continue to use the term it indicates that there is something much deeper that distorts your understanding of those that are here seeking truth, answers and solutions.

Custos said...

Entering to get Mark S to call off a meeting compared to witnessing?

Near straw man.

Tim said...

david,

Do you not think that a phone call would have been appropriate first?

Do you believe that reconcilliation required four men?

Do you not believe that they could have called to have the gate opened?

That last question alone makes the whole issue suspect. The "speck" is in what was done. The "log" is in the reasoning behind it. The "log" is in minimizing the offense.

Tim said...

ezekiel,

That explains a lot to me. I think we have not only an elevated pulpit, but some deacons in a deer stand.

Anonymous said...

I can't speak for David, as he speaks very well for himself; however, considering the volatility of the situation and the nature of the accusations that have been lobbed at our Pastor since this whole thing started, I think he was very wise to not go alone. Who knows what he would be accused of if he had?

Tim said...

david,

Last time I checked my Bible there weren't any phones mentioned, but I do believe that the new RWORD (Rick Warren Offically Revised Dramatization) has covered the topic. :)

To be honest yes I have thought that I was doing the right thing and later realized that I was going about it the wrong way. I have also had times that I realized that what I thought was right was completely wrong. As a matter of fact, I have made a joke of an apology, I have minimized my actions before, I also have apologized while justifing my actions. I accept the time that I've done that myself as no more apologies than I do this one. The difference between my apologies and Steve Gaines is that mine have not been witnessed and affected the entire congregation.

Tim said...

ezekiel,

I suppose that our communication committee is dishonoring to God. It appeared to me last week that there was a lot of wool and sweat up there.

Anonymous said...

November 27, 2006


Flatfoot said...
Contractor said:
Steve Gaines should give the whole gated community a "I'm Sorry" I know there are other Bellevue member who live there.


FlatFoot,
Check with the families in the community, seems many member and non members know about this.

Check it out and ask , I did . I have done work in that area. You may want to back offyour sataements.

Anonymous said...

According to our bylaws, Bellevue must elect new a new board of directors at the last business meeting of the calendar year (December). Has anyone heard about who is being nominated and when the business meeting will take place? If you are going the next CC meeting, please find out.

Anonymous said...

For the Church to move ahead, the pastor is going to have to leave the Church. I see no end in sight and for the sake of Bellevue, the pastor should go to another Church.

This would be a new start for hin and our Church. Why would he want to keep this going when he could just leave and all start over.

Anonymous said...

Psalm 43:3 said...
According to our bylaws, Bellevue must elect new a new board of directors at the last business meeting of the calendar year (December). Has anyone heard about who is being nominated and when the business meeting will take place? If you are going the next CC meeting, please find out.

6:21 PM, November 27, 2006



Good questions!

Why dont we all call the directors or e-mail them. I think someone posted that their phone numbers and e-mail are on savingbellevue site under church goverment.

Post here the resluts when we contact them.

Anonymous said...

Maybe we should be the ones to start all over. We could start with forgiving as we want to be forgiven.

Anonymous said...

Better yet, let's call Chip Freeman at Bellevue, I think he's the Church Adminstrator and should be happy to help us.

Tim said...

david,

Get a grip, Rick Warren is the one that always comes up with the acronyms. And aside from that it was your rediculous suggestion to see if the phone were in the Bible.

Anonymous said...

maybejustmaybe said...
Maybe we should be the ones to start all over. We could start with forgiving as we want to be forgiven.

6:27 PM, November 27, 2006


Maybejustmaybe,

I believe most have or will forgive over time. But the Church must move on and it looks to many that the current Pastor is standing in the way.

Why wouldn't the Pastor just go to another Church where Bellevue could begin to heal and he could start over too?

Our Pastor is causing us much pain and has become a stumbling block.

Anonymous said...

BetterDaysAhead said...
maybejustmaybe said...
Maybe we should be the ones to start all over. We could start with forgiving as we want to be forgiven.

6:27 PM, November 27, 2006


Maybejustmaybe,

I believe most have or will forgive over time. But the Church must move on and it looks to many that the current Pastor is standing in the way.

Why wouldn't the Pastor just go to another Church where Bellevue could begin to heal and he could start over too?

Our Pastor is causing us much pain and has become a stumbling block.

6:35 PM, November 27, 2006

So ... are we to take it, then, that we want to be forgiven "over time" and with conditions? Do we expect forgiveness only when we walk away from the things we've done or have been suspected of doing? Do we want to be forgiven only for those sins for which we grovel and beg forgiveness, or do we want our Lord to forgive us "once and for all?" He took our humiliation, our punishment, our bad attitudes, all of our sin -- omission, commission, known, and unknown -- on Himself at Calvary and set us free from the penalty of that sin forevermore. So then we turn, as the forgiven debtor in His parable, and nag someone beyond recognition over every single thing, large or small, that we think they might have sometime thought about doing? We interpret their facial language as arrogance, their humor as sarcasm, their attempts to apologize as insincere -- is this the kind of forgiveness we desire from our Lord? When we go to Him and say, "Lord, I'm so sorry ..." would He ever look at us and say, "I don't believe you -- once more, with feeling"?

bowtheknee said...

David,

I am sorry my brother but I think you are just wrong about this reconciliation effort. The pastor and his buds didn't go to Mark Sharpe to reconcile. My understanding is that they went in order to shut down the meeting that was about to occur at the Bartlett location. Josh can correct me if I am wrong about this. My memory may be failing me.

Diana Hart

Tim said...

maybejustmaybe,

There would be earthly consequences for our sin, but not enternal damnation.
God doesn't respect a half hearted apology.
God doesn't appreciate us joking about sin.
God doesn't appreciate us minimizing sin.
Maybe when some one has repented of sin, they turn and go a different direction, not continue down the same path that they are going.

Anonymous said...

Tim, do you presume to know whether or not Bro. Steve has confessed and repented to the Lord?

Tim said...

maybejustmaybe,

I know that he is still doing the same things that he had been doing before..ie self-serving sermons. I know that he has not addressed our church and made any effort to reconcile with disinfranchised members.

Tim said...

maybejustmaybe, do you presume to know whether or not Bro. Steve has confessed and repented to the Lord?

bowtheknee said...

Hey Mike,

Karen, Sister Pam, Bro Charles, Mark S, Richard E., Josh, and I along with others aren't attacking the pastor from the shadows. So you can please stop referring to us as Anti-Bellevue. I'm all for Bellevue thanks. I wrote the pastor a letter in February, did not receive an appropriate response and will not let up until the people attending the CC meetings get an appropriate response to their questions. It is not a sin to ask questions. I am praying that the Lord will choose to show you the Light and Truth. I know you from college (the BSU) even though I know you have no idea who I am. I have seen you in choir the last few years and even though I haven't changed one iota you have never noticed me. That is fine - I'm not worried about it. But I do know you and I believe you believe everything you are saying. I also believe your heart can be changed. Please try to be less rude to your brothers and sisters in Christ. You haven't been rude to me personally on these posts but I haven't said much either.

Love in Christ,

Diana Hart

Anonymous said...

So you admit that you are assuming the state of his repentance based on your interpretation or perception of his behavior?

Tim said...

So you admit that you are assuming the state of his repentance based on your interpretation or perception of his behavior?

GBC_Member said...

I say this out of absolutely no respect to those of you who oppose the donation. But really ... can we not move on? What "pound of flesh" will ultimately satisfy you?

I am sorry you do not respect me. I will respons anyway so that others may judge for themselves what the truth is. I want an admission by the finance committee that this was a bad mistake and specifics on the policy changes to prevent it occurring again. I would also like a list of all prior donations to see what else BBC has funded. After this episode I have very little trust in their judgment. Please read the $25k thread. Apparently Mr. Vandersteed (spelling?) has seen the error of this gift. Let us hope others can also and correct the policy that allowed it.

Where, exactly, is your proof that we funded the spreading of lies about abortion and homosexuality with the donation to FUMC?

Again – go read the $25k thread. In a nutshell the proof that Martha Wagley (the senior pastor of FUMC) supports homosexuality is HERE. Martha Wagley supports gay marriage and allowing gays to be ordained as clergy. She has appeared on local newscasts advocating the gays should be ordained as Methodist ministers. I do not have a link of her abortion stance if Life Choices was upset about the donation on November 17th then I will assume they have good reasons.

I have spoken to friends that attended Germantown Methodist while Martha Wagley was senior pastor there. Specifically one of them approached Reverend Wagley about removing a Sunday School teacher that was proclaiming the resurrection to be a metaphor and that Jesus did not actually rise from the dead. In this man’s view the disciples probably stole Jesus body. She continued to allow this man to teach Sunday School. Reverend Wagley also refused to relieve a different children’s teacher that proclaimed the Red Sea and other Old Testament stories were folk tales and didn’t really happen. BBC helped to fund her church church. Some see the BBC donation that will further this type of teaching as a good thing. I do not think funding heretical teachers is a good thing.

We're not talking about humanitarian causes. We're talking about a church that proclaims Jesus Christ as the Way, the Truth, and the Life -- the only way to salvation. That is the gospel in its essence, is it not?.

Yes that is the essence of the gospel. On this we agree. But ask yourself if you deep down really think that a Pastor who sees fit to allow the resurrection to be taught as a metaphor, that the Old Testament as full of lies, that abortion as an acceptable choice and that homosexuality as just an alternative lifestyle is proclaiming the essence of the gospel.

I answered your questions, now you can answer mine.

Would you support BBC funding a church plant whose Senior Pastor allows the teaching that says the resurrection never happened, the Bible is full of lies, gay marriage and gay Clergy are okay and that homosexual lifestyle is acceptable in God’s eyes?

If you answered "no" would it change your answer if you knew there was a solid Bible based soup kitchen in the church plant area but the new church plant had plans to also start a soup kitchen?

If you answered either of these two questions with a yes then we have irreconcilable differences about what the Bible teaches.

bowtheknee said...

Tim,

I trust you and yours are feeling better?

Diana

Tim said...

diana,

somewhat, had to work either way really.

Anonymous said...

maybejustmaybe...

Has he restored brother Mark to the deacon body in good standing?

Has he met with the parties involved with regard to the "dream"--so that that chapter can be closed?

Has he given brother Mark the opportunity to address the full deacon body?

Has he apologized to the church for his part in the 25,000 fiasco?

Has he apologized to the congregation about the Union City comments that have offended many?

Has he apologized to ex-staff members who were roughly treated and sent away with VERY little severance after many years service?

Has he apologized to former staff who were asked to sign non-disclosure statements?

Has he apologized to the church for misrepresenting a severance check as a large amount when it was not!?

If not, I seem to remember John the Baptist calling for "fruits of repentance."

Just my opinion as always.

Anonymous said...

Let me correct a typo. I saw this earlier and actually hoped no one would notice. I meant to say that I was making my statement out of no DISrespect to anyone who opposed the donation. I respect and love all of you as my brothers and sisters in the Lord -- but that was an honest to goodness typo.

I'm not sure that what you're asking me about my beliefs regarding Biblical inerrancy and fundamentalism has anything to do with the donation we made to FUMC. No one has YET answered my question, "Do we not have faith to believe that God can use every penny of His money, given through us, to accomplish HIS purposes through FUMC and its ministries?"

Until you can answer MY question, which I asked over two hours ago and no one has even addressed, I think we have irreconcilable differences about who GOD is and what He can do.

And if you do decide to answer it, I'll see it in the morning. I'm logging off for the evening. Night, all.

Tim said...

david,

not a problem. sorry to you as well, you will find that I have a bady tendenacy to try to lighten the mood occasionally. Sometimes it works to my disadvantage.

Custos said...

Hi David,

I'm just not sure the imparative is the same. Maybe so, but I'm thinking not so much. Further, reconciliation seems to be the reason in hindsight. If memory serves, the fellows were originally interested in stopping the meeting from taking place, hence the presence of Mr Taylor and Mr Caldwell and the overall attitude directed toward the Sharpe children. But that aside, again, just not sure the nature of the imparative is parallel.

Best,
Josh

Anonymous said...

25+,

No, not in bed yet. Just saw your post.

Have all of the individual church members who have been wronged (or feel like they have) gone to Bro. Steve individually, privately, as required in Matt. 18 and failed to be reconciled? Has each individual church member treated him with forgiveness before he asked to be forgiven? Has anyone "assumed" that since they "heard" Matt. 18 didn't work for Mark Sharpe, it won't work for them, so they haven't bothered? Is there one blogger on this board who has aired grievances here that they have not taken directly to the person they hold responsible for creating them?

Is there any proof that M. Sharpe should be restored as a deacon? I was told he had rotated off the active deacon body, and not that he was "kicked off," as is repeatedly claimed here.

Has Mr. Sharpe accepted Bro. Steve's apology? If so, unless someone was personally wronged by his actions, why are we continuing to talk about something that has been forgiven on both sides of the offense?

Are there chapters that we are continuing to hold open simply because we refuse to accept reasonable explanations about how and why things were said and done as they were?

Are any of us harboring unforgiving spirits about another?

And that's just my opinion, as usual, too.

Anonymous said...

Copied from the first thread on this post:

New BBC Open Forum said...

Reposted from another thread:

Tim said...

To the Family of Bellevue:

If you do not stand for something, then you will fall for anything.

If this issue means nothing to you then by all means sleep in this coming Sunday. Don't deprive yourself of an hour of sleep to attend the meeting with the communication committee. They will be glad that you are not there anyway.

Not to mention if you don't show up they will assume that you really don't care and there is a pot full of that can be distributed out just like this has been done.

However, if you do care. If you do believe that the Bible really does have something to say about this. If you are really committed to living your life based on the Word of God and you have any intention at all of staying at Bellevue, then you need to devote at least one hour of your life to let your voice be heard.

12:27 AM, November 25, 2006

1:03 AM, November 25, 2006

But how do we KNOW Tim was sick yesterday morning and that illness is the reason he wasn't at the CC committee? Why can't we just assume that the issues mean nothing to him? After all, what if he was just getting another hour of sleep? Plus, he doesn't SOUND sick in his posts today! He sounds perfectly fine, doesn't he? If he really cared, if he really believed the Bible has something to say about all of this, if he really is committed to living his life based on the Word of God and has any intention of staying at Bellevue, then he should have devoted at least one hour of his life to letting his voice be heard.

DISCLAIMER: Tim, I do believe you were sick. And I'm glad you feel better today. I'm just trying to lighten things with a little humor. I'm tired of going to bed every night with a heavy heart.

Anonymous said...

maybejust maybe...

if there were not a stonewalling committee that functions like a firewall for Dr. Gaines and he met with the sheep that are offended they could talk to him... He should be at the CC meeting.

But now some other things are coming down the track and it doesn't get easier from here.

Just my opinion.

GBC_Member said...

Maybe just maybe
"Do we not have faith to believe that God can use every penny of His money, given through us, to accomplish HIS purposes through FUMC and its ministries?"

Here is my answer. Yes I have faith God can use every penny of his money.

Here is my question to you. Do you believe God expects us to be good stewards of our time talent and money?

Do you think giving money to churches where the Senior Pastor preaches abortion and homosexuality are okay is being a good steward?

Should we try to identify Bible honoring ministries whose beliefs match ours, or just give equally to all causes regardless of their beliefs?

Do we have any responsibility at all about where who and what we support?

My thoughts. We are to trust God, but not to test God with poor donation choices. We should try to do our best and teust him. They are not mutually exclusive.

That is my position.

GBC_Member said...

oops

teust = trust,

Typo.

Tim said...

maybejustmaybe,

touche...it is appreciated and received in the manner in which it was intended :)

Bless You.

You did manage to get big ole smile out of me. :{)

Unknown said...

ezekiel,

Gotcha! That was loud and clear...thanks!

Karen

Again to all who have responded to my post and have emailed me....THANK YOU!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Karen

Unknown said...

TIM,

Deacons in a deer stand!!!!! I just choked on mom's punkin pie!

Karen

bowtheknee said...

Healingbalm,

Here are a couple of verses that might help you in regards to the feelings you have been having that you are being persecuted. I have no doubt that you are being persecuted but please know that we are here for you in your time of distress!

This is from the Beatitudes:

Matt. 5:11-12 NIV

Blessed are you when people insult you, persecute you and falsely say all kinds of evil against you because of me. Rejoice and be glad, because great is your reward in heaven, for in the same way they persecuted the prophets who were before you.

And I will credit my new pastor with this question (however he will remain nameless here). Do you rejoice and consider yourself blessed when others cast insults at you and persecute you for the sake of Christ? Would you rather please the Lord or the world?

I have to tell you these verses and questions hit me right in the heart. I don't rejoice and consider myself blessed when I'm persecuted. In this country, we really have no idea what being persecuted means but we (and I mean me) complain when somebody tries to shush us or make us feel stupid. Keep standing firm Healingbalm - whatever your decision - stand firm in Christ and never worry what others may think.

2006huldah said...

To blessmewiththetruth:

You said, "Yes, he apologized to Mark Sharpe...but we are left with a portrait of just who our pastor is and it isn't pretty."

Yes, the problem goes much deeper than just the fact that Dr. Gaines would cross over a fence which demarcated the boundary of private property. With the apology at the evening church service and weeks later the apology to Mark Sharpe, there is no undoing of the greater offense to both the reputation of the Lord and of our church which has been attempting to reach the greater Memphis area with our missions. It is hard to fathom that the "small-town son of a railroad man" has not learned by the age of 48 that as the pastor of one of the best-known churches in the South that he should not be going around like Tom Sawyer or Huckleberry Finn doing "pranks" (whether he meant it to be that or not). Having been a member of Bellevue for 27 years, I learned from Dr. Rogers that if we're not honoring the Lord in our behavior "don't tell them you go to Bellevue". I guess that's one of the reasons we are having a hard time with this. Steve Gaines is our LEADER, our main representative--and HE did this.

This is just the tip of the iceberg. It has really opened up a Pandora's box. It most likely could have been remedied early on with a major, heartfelt, humble apology; but the lack of that for way too long allowed it to fester and the medicine that is now being applied lacks the power or the punch to wipe out all the infection. Too many bandages are being placed over wounds that need major surgery in order to excise the canker. Bellevue is going down if Steve Gaines does not step to the forefront and fully confess to ALL who have heard of these goings on and ask forgiveness and TURN from his ways which we have seen demonstrated. He needs to confess all of this to even those who have followed him faithfully through all of this and backed him when he has been wrong possibly having deceived them into thinking it was all in jest or simple mistakes of the head. For we know that the Bible says "that as a man thinketh in his heart, so is he."

Unknown said...

I don't know if this passage with speak to anyone, but it speaks to me. My favorite verse has been verse 14 - don't you hate it when you hide things from God and then somebody finds out and calls your bluff??? If God can be sorry that He made someone a king, can't I be sorry that He appointed the leadership at Bellevue? Just wondering....Karen

1 Samuel 15:10-40 (The Message)

10-11 Then God spoke to Samuel: "I'm sorry I ever made Saul king. He's turned his back on me. He refuses to do what I tell him."

11-12 Samuel was angry when he heard this. He prayed his anger and disappointment all through the night. He got up early in the morning to confront Saul but was told, "Saul's gone. He went to Carmel to set up a victory monument in his own honor, and then was headed for Gilgal."

By the time Samuel caught up with him, Saul had just finished an act of worship, having used Amalekite plunder for the burnt offerings sacrificed to God.

13 As Samuel came close, Saul called out, "God's blessings on you! I accomplished God's plan to the letter!"

14 Samuel said, "So what's this I'm hearing—this bleating of sheep, this mooing of cattle?"

15 "Only some Amalekite loot," said Saul. "The soldiers saved back a few of the choice cattle and sheep to offer up in sacrifice to God. But everything else we destroyed under the holy ban."

16 "Enough!" interrupted Samuel. "Let me tell you what God told me last night."

Saul said, "Go ahead. Tell me."

17-19 And Samuel told him. "When you started out in this, you were nothing—and you knew it. Then God put you at the head of Israel—made you king over Israel. Then God sent you off to do a job for him, ordering you, 'Go and put those sinners, the Amalekites, under a holy ban. Go to war against them until you have totally wiped them out.' So why did you not obey God? Why did you grab all this loot? Why, with God's eyes on you all the time, did you brazenly carry out this evil?"

20-21 Saul defended himself. "What are you talking about? I did obey God. I did the job God set for me. I brought in King Agag and destroyed the Amalekites under the terms of the holy ban. So the soldiers saved back a few choice sheep and cattle from the holy ban for sacrifice to God at Gilgal—what's wrong with that?"

22-23 Then Samuel said, Do you think all God wants are sacrifices—empty rituals just for show? He wants you to listen to him! Plain listening is the thing, not staging a lavish religious production. Not doing what God tells you is far worse than fooling around in the occult. Getting self-important around God
is far worse than making deals with your dead ancestors.
Because you said No to God's command, he says No to your kingship.

24-25 Saul gave in and confessed, "I've sinned. I've trampled roughshod over God's Word and your instructions. I cared more about pleasing the people. I let them tell me what to do. Oh, absolve me of my sin! Take my hand and lead me to the altar so I can worship God!"

26 But Samuel refused: "No, I can't come alongside you in this. You rejected God's command. Now God has rejected you as king over Israel."

27-29 As Samuel turned to leave, Saul grabbed at his priestly robe and a piece tore off. Samuel said, "God has just now torn the kingdom from you, and handed it over to your neighbor, a better man than you are. Israel's God-of-Glory doesn't deceive and he doesn't dither. He says what he means and means what he says."

30 Saul tried again, "I have sinned. But don't abandon me! Support me with your presence before the leaders and the people. Come alongside me as I go back to worship God."

31 Samuel did. He went back with him. And Saul went to his knees before God and worshiped.

32 Then Samuel said, "Present King Agag of Amalek to me." Agag came, dragging his feet, muttering that he'd be better off dead.

33 Samuel said, "Just as your sword made many a woman childless, so your mother will be childless among those women!" And Samuel cut Agag down in the presence of God right there in Gilgal.

34-35 Samuel left immediately for Ramah and Saul went home to Gibeah. Samuel had nothing to do with Saul from then on, though he grieved long and deeply over him. But God was sorry he had ever made Saul king in the first place.

2006huldah said...

To Karen regarding I Samuel 15:10-11:

Yes, Karen. Yes!

Tim said...

karen,

What is even more beautiful and encouraging is the man that followed Saul?

Of course, we know that he was far from perfect, but he did love God and the people.

Thank you for sharing!

Anonymous said...

My post is not in the normal vein. I am a casual reader of this blog and a casual member of Bellevue for app. 18 months. As an observer of issues like this in Baptist churches for too many years, this one is as regretful as any. My intensity of concern for the institution is nowhere near what is expressed on this blog. What I haven't seen expressed is any disappointment in the job of the pulpit committee. From the beginning I was shocked at the decision. And the parade of testimonials from all the committee in a service was a little over the edge for me. I commented to my wife after hearing the new reverend a couple times that his temperament and demeanor spoke volumes to me about his leadership style. I place no blame on him. He is what he is. But for a committee of responsible, spiritually sensitive individuals who placed total commitment to the selection as being God's man for Bellevue was interesting to me. God's will is a challenge many times and I have not found an easy path to confirm. The situation seems to me that the committee wanted a leader who was arbitrary, independent and unafraid to shake the traditions of the previous pastor. I came to that conclusion after some of the quotes from the new reverend. He in no way 'fits' my style. However I learned many years ago that God doesn't provide us the ideals we want.
But, for what it's worth, as a relatively new member, we no longer participate. We do attend Sunday morning worship service. We are assessing our interest in remaining in the church. I do not think there will be a spiritual solution which resolves this - it will be power and control. That is the new reverend's style. I think he has become hardened to a survival 'lifestyle' as a Baptist preacher.
I add these thoughts to provide a little broader glimpse at how this has affected what apparently is a good number of people on the 'periphery' of the membership.

Anonymous said...

Let me define ANTI BELLEVUE for all of you and then you will know what a slur really is and who is the King of all SLURS.

Everytime you hear the name Anti Bellevue what the person is really saying is this:

Those who are AGAINST the BRIDE OF CHRIST JESUS.

I am sure the BRIDEGROOM is AGAINST those who are AGAINST his son`s BRIDE.

Make sure you understand in full what is being said by Mike Bratton who supposedly distains slurs.

Mike, you are stating that some of the deacons and some of the members are AGAINST THE BRIDE OF CHRIST which is ANTI CHRIST.

For someone who thinks himself to be a wordsmith of sorts, you have created a name that defames members of the church.

Anonymous said...

Our current board of directors include:

Bruce Brooke, Chuck Fullerton, John Addison, Jeff Arnold, Tom McCormack, and Harold Shipman (we are allowed seven but only have six currently). Section III of our bylaws says this about our board of directors:

“The directors of the corporation shall be seven in number, shall serve for one year or until their successors are duly elected and qualified and shall be elected by the members of said Bellevue Baptist Church at the last monthly business meeting prior to the end of each calendar year, beginning with the year 1929. Any vacancy in the Board of Directors shall be filled by the directors for the unexpired term. An annual meeting of the Board of Directors shall be held on the (same) day that the congregation of said church holds its last business meeting of the year. Special meetings of the Board may be held at any time or place upon three days written notice, upon call of the President, or upon call of two-thirds of the members of the board; or such meeting may be held without notice, by unanimous consent, such consent to be expressed by written wavier of notice, or by attendance at such meeting.”

1. The directors are to be elected by us.

2. They are to be elected at the last monthly business meeting prior to the end of each calendar year (sometime in the next 34 days).

3. The election is to be held during a business meeting (as opposed to an information meeting).

Let’s find out when this meeting is scheduled and vote for those we think would give us the best representation in our church.

Unknown said...

eprov,

Very provacative posting for your 1st time! I loved it! I made a comment to my mom about 6 months ago - "be careful what you pray for, you just might get it" and I believe we got what they prayed for.

Welcome to the fray! :)

Karen

MOM4 said...

eprov,
Thank you for your post. I am afraid that there are many of us who feel betrayed by the search committe, some of whom had motives that were questionable. It seems that power flows from the top and the top is where these folks appear to have landed. For instance, the Caldwell's son was on staff at Gardendale and is now employed at BBC and of course Mrs. Pat was on the search committee and Mr. John was a "fence jumper". This is just the tip of the iceberg for those who had a vested interest in bringing Gaines to the pastorate.

I was disturbed when I heard who their choice was, it was a deep secret and announced in great pomp and circumstance at the same time the vote was held. I feel certain that those who voted for him did so out of trust in the committee. We had always relied on the itegrity of Dr Rogers (who was obviously deceived along with the rest of us-there is no way that he would have allowed this to go on!!), therefore I would say that most of us are feeling quite betrayed at this time.

I would like to see the members of the search committee present themselves to us at the committee meeting next Sunday and give an account of what all they have "gained" since promoting this man.
That should be interesting to say the least, but I doubt they will show thei faces. I do believe that there are those of them who will admit that they were lied to by Steve Gaines, especially regarding the chages he has made. I would appreciate them making an appearance next Sunday and clearing that up for us.

New BBC Open Forum said...

eprov wrote:

"What I haven't seen expressed is any disappointment in the job of the pulpit committee."

Actually, there has been criticism of the pulpit committee's job throughout this forum, although it seems most of it was in the earlier topics. (See some of the October topics.)

At the CC meeting last week (November 19th), the question was asked, "How many potential pastors were brought in and interviewed by the committee?" They conveniently ignored the man's question. What they've said is they reviewed over 170 resumes. That's a far cry from interviewing 170 people. Obviously they could eliminate some candidates based upon resumes alone, but I would like to know how many candidates the committee went to hear preach and how many they brought in for interviews. It's a simple question, but the answer might be revealing.

NASS

Anonymous said...

Let me define those who support the $25000 donation to a church who operates in darkness.

PRO ABORTION GIVING, PRO HOMOSEXUAL GIVING, PRO GAY MARRIAGE GIVING, PRO WOMEN PREACHER GIVING

AND TO PUT IT ALL IN ONE NICE PACKAGE

PRO ANTI CHRIST GIVING

FUMC may look like an angel of light but we know them by their fruits.

Satan offered Jesus the kingdoms of the world which were in his power and he stood against him.

FUMC offers a food kitchen mixed with Anti Christ poison and I stand against them in the name of the Lord!

Get thee behind me, Satan: for it is written, Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and him only shalt thou serve.

The Sword of Truth has fallen, let it cut to the marrow if it must.

MOM4 said...

RE: our Ad Hoc Committee's purpose:
By Definition - "ad hoc"
adj. Latin shorthand meaning "for this purpose only." Thus, an ad hoc committee is formed for a specific purpose, usually appointed to solve a particular problem. An ad hoc attorney is one hired to handle one problem only and often is a specialist in a particular area or considered especially able to argue a key point.

I would like to know what members of the committee are there to solve this particular problem and which ones are "specilists" in this area. From the sounds of things, it looks like they are hand selected for their preferential treatment of the facts rather than their abilities to solve problems.

Anonymous said...

The pulpit committee aided and abeded the pastor in making a decision to come to Bellevue.

Steve Gaines said no to Bellevue so many times one could lose track but no one accepted his answer.

Just more time was the call of the pulpit committee and so they went back in hopes of changing his mind and it finally worked.

Now Bellevue suffers.

I don`t have to wonder why.

Anonymous said...

swordoftruth,

Steve Gaines said no to Bellevue so many times one could lose track but no one accepted his answer.

Just more time was the call of the pulpit committee and so they went back in hopes of changing his mind and it finally worked.


Perhaps Dr. Gaines said no because he told Gardendale he would stay with them forever...but that was HIS decisions, HIS plans, not God's.

Then later God spoke to Steve and told him that he sould accept the position + come to minister to Bellevue. Hmm..did you ever think about that?

Anonymous said...

When you cross-reference the CC members and the Pastor Search Committee you find that they are practically one in the same. Some have asked if they are serving a dual purpose as a firewall for the pastor and as a protector of their legacy- bringing SG to Bellevue?

Anonymous said...

To maybejustmaybe and David,

If Steve Gaines, Mark D, John Caldwell, and Chuck Taylor came over to the Sharpe's house for reconciliation, why did they not come back the next day, or the next day, or the next day, or the next day... I think you get my point by now. In fact Steve Gaines if I'm not mistaken called Mark Sharpe up 3 days later, the day before the Friday off campus meeting and called him Hezbollah. That doesn't sound like they came to reconcile to me. I believe this was around the first of August and it wasn't until Sept 24 that he addressed us on Sunday night to appologize to the church but not the Sharpe family. As of a couple of days ago, Mark Sharpe says he's still not heard from John Caldwell. If you want to go on thinking they came to reconcile, I've got some swampland I'd like to talk to you about buying.

To Mike,
If we are anti-bellevue, then you and your buddies are anti-truth.

Anonymous said...

As long as you just sit here and chat about the problem the problem will continue to grow.

There is talk that Steve Gaines will be addressing the church body this coming Sunday. This is the week that you need to get everything on the RIGHT TABLE so it can be addressed.

Be careful with what you say here.

Be wise in what you swallow.

New allegations have yet to be aired and this could well be why Steve Gaines is considering his options.

Anonymous said...

swtt,

In fact Steve Gaines if I'm not mistaken called Mark Sharpe up 3 days later, the day before the Friday off campus meeting and called him Hezbollah.

You are mistaken. Mark Sharpe has already posted here that Gaines did not directly call him Hezbollah. Quit contributing to this gossip, please. If you can't be truthful, don't say anything.

Anonymous said...

swordoftruth,

As long as you just sit here and chat about the problem the problem will continue to grow.

This applies to you too, buddy.

There is talk that Steve Gaines will be addressing the church body this coming Sunday.

Where did you hear of this "talk"?

Be careful with what you say here.

Good advice.

New allegations have yet to be aired and this could well be why Steve Gaines is considering his options.

Are you saying there is more stuff out there but it's yet to be posted yet? How do you know this?

Anonymous said...

Ace,

If you know the details, repeat them and I'll check and get back with you. Who have you talked to about this? Have you confirmed with Mark Sharpe that is true? By the way, does anyone else who is labeled ant-bellevue have any knowledge of what Ace is asking. Ace, we'll get back with you after checking it out next week. Sorry, this is all the time we have today.
Can someone turn the mike off and lock the doors and turn the lights out please.

Unknown said...

swordoftruth said:

There is talk that Steve Gaines will be addressing the church body this coming Sunday. This is the week that you need to get everything on the RIGHT TABLE so it can be addressed.

Since you said it first, I'll chime in...I heard this yesterday too. Seems hard to refute when 2 people who don't seem to know each other (we don't do we, Sword?) hear the same, exact, to the letter statement.

Thanks for letting this out, Sword.

Karen

Anonymous said...

swtt,

If you know the details, repeat them and I'll check and get back with you. Who have you talked to about this?

Details about what? Hezbollah/Mark Sharpe? I saw the details in another post by Mark Sharpe. Go searching for it and I'm sure you'll find it.

If my memory is correct Mark said that Gaines said he was acting like Hezbollah. People here are saying that Gaines called him it. There is a HUGE difference.

Or - Are you talking about other allegations? Because I have no info for you, I was just asking you a question since you brought up the topic.

By the way, does anyone else who is labeled ant-bellevue have any knowledge of what Ace is asking.

What are you talking about? What am I asking? Which specific question I asked are you making a deal out of now?

Can someone turn the mike off and lock the doors and turn the lights out please.

Leave if you don't want to talk anymore. But, wait...that's now how you work. I say something you disagree with therefore it's time for me to be blocked, etc. That's very nice...

Anonymous said...

Karen,

Since you said it first, I'll chime in...I heard this yesterday too.

Since swordoftruth didn't answer this question, I'll address it to you. Who did you hear it from? Was it another member or from staff? I'm curious, that's all. It is an honest question.

Anonymous said...

headoutofthesand,

ace, quit acting like Hitler.

ace, quit acting like Bill Clinton.

ace, quit acting like Jezebel.

ace, quit acting like Satan.

ace, do you get the point?


Ouch. I think you need to quit being so hateful.

Unknown said...

ace,

I heard it from my mother - where she heard it I can't confirm because she asked me not to. Just go with it, ace. Please! You and I have not had a bad word between us yet. Just please believe me on this - don't miss church on Sunday (am or pm). Can we leave it at that for now?

Karen

Unknown said...

ace, you're fast on that computer. Let Sword answer the question if they choose to. Not everyone has Mach 1 internet connections! :)

Karen

Anonymous said...

Headoutofthesand,

Yes I understand the point, but I have done nothing to be compared to Satan. Unless you disagree I should be compared? In that case, please explain what I have done to have been mentioned with any of those people. Thank you in advance.

Anonymous said...

Ace,
You are dealing in hearsay. Again, who have you verified your statement with? I heard that Steve Gaines called Mark Sharpe two weeks ago and appologized for calling him Hezbollah? In fact, Mark Sharpe said that Steve Gaines went further and said "I know you're not a middle eastern terrorist. It was a poor choice of words". So ace, please stop dealing in rumors and stick with the facts. If you can verify what was said with Steve Gaines and Mark Sharpe do so. Otherwise don't repeat rumors.
I'm sorry we can't comment or take any more questions from you tonight. We are out of time. We'll take your questions and check them out this week and get back to you. By the way, did anyone take notes on the questions? I forgot to write any of them down.

Anonymous said...

Karen,

Please! You and I have not had a bad word between us yet. Just please believe me on this - don't miss church on Sunday (am or pm).... Can we leave it at that for now?

All I wanted was an answer to my question. I am not here to argue with every single post, whether if it seems that way or not.

Thank you for answering my question. It's not often that people actually do that for me...it is much appreciated.

Anonymous said...

Karen,

ace, you're fast on that computer. Let Sword answer the question if they choose to. Not everyone has Mach 1 internet connections! :)

Heh, thanks for the smile. :)

Unknown said...

ace,

Headoutofthesand told you to stop "being like" those people/beings just like Steve Gaines told Mark Sharpe he was being like Hezbollah. There's not too much difference in "being like" and "being". For those of you who are English majors, isn't one a simile and one is a metaphor? Aren't they basically the same thing. Regardless, ace, being called something directly and being told you're acting like something are basically the same thing. Stop arguing over semantics.

Karen

Unknown said...

ace,

the tone of my last post to you was a little persnickity on my part - sorry about that!

Karen

Anonymous said...

swtt,

Again, who have you verified your statement with? I heard that Steve Gaines called Mark Sharpe two weeks ago and appologized for calling him Hezbollah?

Per Mark Sharp's post in http://www.blogger.com/comment.g?blogID=36564514&postID=116355746488378841 at 10:26 PM on November 15, 2006....I quote, "Steve Gaines said I was acting like Hezbollah. - There are you happy now?

So ace, please stop dealing in rumors and stick with the facts.

It looks like you're the one dealing with rumors. I have presented a fact for you, are you happy now?

Anonymous said...

headoutofthesand,

By your reaction to my examples, you have proven my point that there is simply no difference between telling someone they are acting like x than by calling them x directly.

I shouldn't have posted my reply. I admit I didn't read the exact words that you wrote and I'm sorry. I am just used to everyone here attacking me that I jumped to conclusions and that was a mistake on my part.

"You're acting like a 2 year old." - am I saying you're 2? No, I'm saying you're acting like one. And obviously you aren't one. And obviously Mark isn't Hezbollah...

Anonymous said...

Karen,

the tone of my last post to you was a little persnickity on my part - sorry about that!

Don't wory about it...

Anonymous said...

Ace,
Thanks for verifying my post. What I say and what you say are the same thing.
Now, please once again, your time is up. We have no more time for questions this evening. We'll be back one week from now with new answers.
By the way, how much are you getting paid for this?

Anonymous said...

Swtt,

Thanks for verifying my post. What I say and what you say are the same thing.

You just can't admit you were wrong, can you?

Now, please once again, your time is up. We have no more time for questions this evening. We'll be back one week from now with new answers.

And this part of your post is needed...why? Oh wait, it's not needed...it serves no purpose at all.

Anonymous said...

Ace,
You must not have been at the last CC meeting Sunday morning.

Anonymous said...

Ace,
Have a good night and get some sleep. You'll feel better in the morning.

Anonymous said...

Swtt,

I'd suggest you go back and read all of your posts from the first one including Hisservant.

Are you saying that I'm Hisservant? If so, you are incorrect.

And I've read all my posts. I have never attacked anyone, unlike all the times I have been bullied around here with posts of hate, etc. Please point me to some posts I wrote. Please list specific topics + times of my ugly posts. And just because I support Gaines, that does not count...even though a lot of people here would count that fact alone as me being ugly.

Anonymous said...

Swtt,

Have a good night and get some sleep. You'll feel better in the morning.

I'm not going to bed, are you? I'll see you in your dreams! ;)

Anonymous said...

Ms.Ace
Now you just got a small taste of what Mark Sharp went through when the pastor make his hezzbolah remark

Unknown said...

bereans,

Thanks for you last post. My family did visit GBC on the 1st two Sundays that Mike preached over there. We got quite blessed. I tried taking notes, but got to entralled with what Mike was talking about to get anything down on paper. It was nice to see the Mannings again for sure; there are others that I won't mention for their privacy, but since Josh blogs here, I don't think the Mannings will mind that I mention them by name. For me, God has me in a holding pattern for now, but I may join you soon. God will tell me when. Thanks!

Karen

Anonymous said...

Diana Hart said...
Hey Mike,

Karen, Sister Pam, Bro Charles, Mark S, Richard E., Josh, and I along with others aren't attacking the pastor from the shadows.


You would agree that you're the minority in using your real names, would you not? And would you even want to classify your responses as attacks?

So you can please stop referring to us as Anti-Bellevue.

Ah, a jumping-off point--thank you, ma'am.

You'd be surprised at the people who e-mail me and talk to me about that identifier, saying things like "Thank you for calling things what they are."

Am I referring to you, Diana, as "anti-Bellevue"?

Not in the slightest.

Have I ever specifically, intentionally referred to a person as "anti-Bellevue"?

No.

I know there are some folks here who want to redefine nomenclature in ways that make themselves appear to be offended parties, but it doesn't work in this instance. Matter of fact, I've gone to great lengths to specifically define what "anti-Bellevue" refers to. I quote myself thusly, and like so:

Honestly, there are no legitimate "sides" to this business. The idea is that those of us who are Christians are, or should be, on the Lord's side; if we have disputes, then someone (or everyone) involved is out of alignment with God's will for that situation.

When the savingbellevue.com people took to the Internet, the newspapers, and the television, actually "saving Bellevue" got lost in the shuffle of interviews and pronouncements. It was taking a figurative stick, and drawing a figurative line in the figurative sand; publicly calling those at Bellevue who disagree with your viewpoint "cowards" and "the Mafia," among other things, are polarizing, line-in-the-sand statements.

Only with a real sadness can such a viewpoint be identified not as a desire to save Bellevue, but as anti-Bellevue. Pardon me for getting personal, but I'm sick of seeing it. The "Saving 'Saving Bellevue'" blog has, for whatever reason, shut down; it would be nice to see savingbellevue.com follow suit. I'd much rather report and/or opine about any of the thousand other stories zipping through the air these days--but as long as that site keeps churning along, this one will offer alternatives.


And again, for the sake of clarity:

To respond with skepticism regarding their validity of their actions or their ideas, as many have found out, is to be put in the crosshairs, figuratively speaking. And this, to me, is the most disappointing part of the whole sordid affair, even more disappointing than discovering I use far, far too many commas when I write. But seriously... when that "side" pushes, attacks, and defames pastors, deacons, and other church members in general without concern or apology, my heart breaks for everyone concerned--but mostly for the group carrying out such anti-Bellevue behavior.

Yes, "anti-Bellevue." Since the day the dissent moved from a private campaign of whispers within the church body to a public campaign of websites, news articles and forums, it has been attempted to be incredibly injurious to Bellevue as a whole. As most every person's grandmother has said, it is possible to disagree without being disagreeable, but those in the vanguard of the movement against Bellevue show precious little evidence of remembering the saying. Pastor Gaines is Hitler, so they say; the deacons who support him are Fascists, and the majority of the congregation is a group of ignorant sycophants. How, exactly, do these caricatures come across as constructive in nature? How do they bring benefit at this point in Bellevue's existence? Obviously, they do not.

Bellevue Baptist Church has been used of God for over a century in ministering the Gospel to those who need to hear it. I would suggest it is possible to be dissatisfied with the way the church has been, or is, operating without engaging in behavior that damages the church as a whole. Such behavior as we see is anti-Bellevue, though I seriously doubt the heart of anyone engaging in such behavior is.

We should, we must be prayerful in our approach to this time of testing. Whatever your opinion of any given matter in your church, do not use your opinion as justification for assaulting those with whom you disagree--rather, use it as a opportunity to draw closer to God.


"Anti-Bellevue" is a label for a behavior, not a brand for an individual.

I'm all for Bellevue thanks.

Of that I have no doubt. Consequently, I'd like your thoughts about another post in this topic:

swordoftruth said...
Let me define those who support the $25000 donation to a church who operates in darkness.

PRO ABORTION GIVING, PRO HOMOSEXUAL GIVING, PRO GAY MARRIAGE GIVING, PRO WOMEN PREACHER GIVING

AND TO PUT IT ALL IN ONE NICE PACKAGE

PRO ANTI CHRIST GIVING


Does that sort of pronouncement, Diana, benefit the dialogue, or polarize the congregation?

I wrote the pastor a letter in February, did not receive an appropriate response and will not let up until the people attending the CC meetings get an appropriate response to their questions.

I'm unclear about what happened. Did you receive a form letter, an answer with which you disagreed--what went on? And what did you write him about, if I may ask?

It is not a sin to ask questions.

Is it a sin to ask the questions where people anywhere from California to China can read them?

I am praying that the Lord will choose to show you the Light and Truth.

This is an interesting statement, Diana. Would you please expound on it?

I know you from college (the BSU) even though I know you have no idea who I am. I have seen you in choir the last few years and even though I haven't changed one iota you have never noticed me. That is fine - I'm not worried about it.

You know, I appreciate that, but I have a feeling that I've offended you by not recognizing you. I apologize--I have a horrible memory for faces and names. And I congratulate you for recognizing me, since I've changed several iotas (There's a Scrabble word if ever I saw one!) since those days. Please come say "hello" Sunday morning, so I can apologize some more.

--Mike

Tim said...

Mike your acting like Caiaphas.

Wait it is an act ...isn't it.

Unknown said...

Goodnight y'all! You stay up too late for this lil' grey duck!

karen

Anonymous said...

swordoftruth posted:

There is talk that Steve Gaines will be addressing the church body this coming Sunday. This is the week that you need to get everything on the RIGHT TABLE so it can be addressed.


REPLY: we will see, do not be suprised.



Be careful with what you say here.
Be wise in what you swallow.
New allegations have yet to be aired and this could well be why Steve Gaines is considering his options


REPLY: what a JOKE. just more proof that you and many others will never be satisfied, no matter what. the only thing that will satisfy you and many others is for Steve Gaines to resign and for Bellevue to never ever ever change anything ever again. for things to be done YOUR way.

many of you have claimed that this is what you wanted. For Steve Gaines to address the church etc. NOW, you think that everything Brother Steve does must have some kind of horrible motive. you have the audacity to now claim that if he does address the church it might be because of other "allegations" and he is doing for that reason and that reason only.

you bash him for not and now if he does, you question his motives.

how very sad!!

Tim said...

Someone said earlier that Dr. Gaines was planning on addressing the congregation Sunday. This isn't going to be another informational meeting is it, because if it is, the church needs to supply barf bags.

Seems like there was a mention of new allegations as well.

Anonymous said...

David,

2 Things...

1) The Caiaphas comment was suppose to be humor. Mike Bratton plays Caiaphas in the Passion Play every year here in Bellevue...so that's where that comment came from. It wasn't an attack, even if it seemed like it. But that's the problem, yah know? People who didn't know that take it the wrong way and it hurts our testimony because the people who read it may never come back here again. I mean, come on...look at us. No doubt non-Christians probably come across this site. They see the way we are acting at times, always in disagreement, some attacking others. They probably turn their backs and say, "If that's what Christianity is all about, I want no part of that." If one person did that then I am ashamed of myself, as should everyone else here be. Let's try to be civil with our comments from now on. If we disagree, let's disagree nicely. Do I hear a second?

2) Josh is not the person who runs this blog. NBBCOF (aka NASS) runs it. But I agree that I would love to see it come down... because I don't like how we're airing dirty laundry (gossip) for the entire world to see about our church... But, hey! That's just my opinion.... Take it or leave it!

By the way- thanks for the posts, David!

New BBC Open Forum said...

david,

Are you the "Pastor David" who posted here a few days ago? We had two Davids there for a while. Just want to make sure.

If you had read much of anything in this forum you'd realize that Josh isn't the "blogmaster" and has nothing to do with this blog. I do. I do not host savingbellevue.com, nor are our sites connected except by mutual links on our pages.

I just noticed where "ace" addressed your concerns. Yes, the Caiaphas remark was a joke, and BBC members all likely got it. The fact that you didn't just illustrates that perhaps you are talking about things you really don't know about.

Also, this forum will remain open as long as the need exists, and you are not the one who determines "need." No one's making you read anything here or post comments. If it grieves you so much, perhaps you shouldn't participate.

NBBCOF

New BBC Open Forum said...

Pastor Dave (wow, it's gotta be) wrote:

"Seems that anyone can say anything against pastor and Church, but if anyone suggests that such talk is not Godly they are blasted."

Obviously you didn't read some of the comments I deleted this evening!

"How come ACE was able to say: Hey, thanks for the warning. But you say: No way am I even considering my conduct. ?"

Well, maybe because it's not my conduct! In the end, everyone is responsible for his or her own comments. I try to moderate as best I can, but there aren't enough hours in the day to analyze every comment made and determine the appropriateness (or not) of it. We're all adults here, and I've repeatedly asked people to act like adults. Unfortunately, a few have fallen short of that noble yet elusive goal.

It's 2:30 in the morning right now, and I'm trying to catch up on my e-mail and soon will try to get a little sleep. Frankly, I'm sick and tired of people like you telling me what I should and should not allow. You're free to start your own blog and set the rules. In the meantime, to quote an oft-used phrase many of us have heard from our "shepherd" and our "leadership" the past few months, "If you don't like it here, maybe you should just go someplace else."

NBBCOF

Anonymous said...

IF we really believed that the Holy Spirit is Lord, then somehow 90% of the comments on here are SELF serving. Regardless of my personal take on most scripture, to impose that as a definitive rule for all is not what it's about, my opinion. It is the same about God's will and God 'speaking to me.' We can know God but we cannot comprehend Him. So many assert comprehension. Reminds me of the late great Bible teacher, Dr. J. Vernon McGee, who said that when he graduated from seminary in his 30s he wrote a book and answered all the questions. He commented in his 70s that he had just begun to understand SOME of the questions. From my perspective revival and spiritual unity will never come thru debate or argument, but a 'contrite spirit' He will not despise. Where's the brokenness, whether leadership or laity?

Tim said...

eprov,

I think that I understand your post. I had read thru it several times before attempting to respond. I must confess that not all of my post have been affirming to others. I could not say that there has been anything that I could gain by making them, however. My intentions are toward presenting the truth and defending it. As well, there have been attempts to bring a small smile to those that become discouraged.

I am somewhat in agreement that revival will not come from debate or argument. There have been many individual revivals (changing of hearts) that have been about by the debates and arguments of men such as Josh McDowell.

I can not agree that unity can not be brought about by debate and argument. Nor can I agree that scripture is not the final authority. If we are not unified in scripture then what can we be unified in. Every thing will ultimately be tested by the Word of God, in this we can be sure. If every thing is to be tested by the Word of God and Jesus taught us to pray that, "It be on earth as it is in heaven", then shouldn't we follow his command to make it so.

We were never commanded to be unified in error, but rather to be unified in truth.

I do appreciate your thoughts and perhaps we can both learn something by our discussions.

Anonymous said...

Why does Mike Hobday want to come on staff at Bellevue?

When is Mike Hobday going on staff at Bellevue?

What is Mike Hobday's relationship with John Caldwell?

Does John Caldwell have his hand in the mix with Mike Hobday?

Who recomended Mike to come on staff at Bellevue?

These comments are not ment to be negative about Mike, as they say he is a good man. We hope has a chance to serve somewhere if this is where that is what the Lord desires.

Now is not the best time for the Church to bring on any new staff until we define our current policy.

The time is now to have a

"FREEZE ON HIRING"

Anonymous said...

BigConcern said...
Why does Mike Hobday want to come on staff at Bellevue?

When is Mike Hobday going on staff at Bellevue?

What is Mike Hobday's relationship with John Caldwell?

Does John Caldwell have his hand in the mix with Mike Hobday?

Who recomended Mike to come on staff at Bellevue?

These comments are not ment to be negative about Mike, as they say he is a good man. We hope has a chance to serve somewhere if this is what the Lord desires.

Now is not the best time for the Church to bring on any new staff until we define our current policy.

The time is now to have a

"FREEZE ON HIRING"

9:30 AM,

Unknown said...

Good Morning All! This was in my Inbox this morning from LWF - It's just what I needed this morning:

BIBLE MEDITATION:
“And therefore will the Lord wait, that He may be gracious unto you.” Isaiah 30:18

DEVOTIONAL THOUGHT:
Many times the Lord will deliberately delay that He may be gracious to us. When Lazarus fell sick, his family sent for Jesus. Instead of coming immediately, Jesus waited (see John 11:1-46). He held back until Lazarus was dead. And if you read John 11:15, you'll see that He said, “I’m glad,” because He had something greater in mind. God waited four thousand years to send the Lord Jesus Christ after He made that promise. But Galatians 4:4 says He came in the fullness of time. Never late, never ahead of time, never in a hurry.

ACTION POINT:
Are you in a waiting game? Praying days, weeks, months, even years, for something and God hasn’t answered? Be still and know that in the fullness of time, your request will be answered

dewaynehartsoe said...

I just talked with a friend who is a member of BBC and he told me that he knows of some meetings that have been held outside the church. He is a very godly man whom I trust very much. I did not want to ask him to share names but he said that up to 200 people had attended these meetings and these were very influential people.

He also told me some other things that have been done behind the scenes. The pressure is building on the leadership and even some of the CC are discouraged with what is happening.

We need to be very polite and respectful when we ask questions so that we do not offend and give credence to their (Anti-Bellevue thoughts) God is working and we just need to keep praying and trusting Him. And do as Dr.Rogers used to say "I am going to keep my teeth brushed and my bags packed" He said this in reference to being ready when Jesus comes back, but I think we need to do this in order for God to hear our prayers. If we have sin in our lives we can be sure that God will turn a deaf ear to our requests.

There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man, but God is faithful who will not allow you to be tempted above that you able but will with the temptation, make a way of escape that ye may be able to bear it. This may not be an exact quote word for word because I did this from memory, but remember when we are tempted to respond in less than a Christ lilke manner to some on these blogs, remember your way of escape is to just NOT say anything.

Thank all of you who think before you post and even to those who sometimes let their emotions get away from them. God still loves you and I do too.

Also remember this, there is nothing you can do to get God to love you more and also there is nothing you can do to get God to love you any less.

He may not be happy with everything we do but He still loves us the same.

dewaynehartsoe said...

Karen

Thanks you for such a beautiful thought. You have made my day. :)

Unknown said...

inhisname,

Thanks for the post...It's actually a Dr. Rogers LWF daily devotional that I get via email. I thought it appropriate due to the current state of things at Bellevue. Refiner's fire hurts, don't it? :)

Also, I know there are other meetings taking place and things going on behind the scenes. I've attended a couple of meetings as have others on this blog. I have nothing to hide and don't care who knows my thoughts on the current state of affairs at Bellevue. For reasons of their own, people are choosing to stay quiet - that's between them and God. God is blessing me as I boldly state my opinions. Hope it don't make folks love little ole me any less - I feel your love and thanks for the emails of encouragement.

If y'all haven't had the pleasure of speaking to Mrs. Gremillion on the phone, I highly recommend it. She posted her phone number (you need to remove that as we are world wide, Sister Pam!!) and I spoke to her yesterday. Talk about an uplifting experience!! :)

NASS, can you remove it in case she't not on the comptuer today.

Unknown said...

Song lyrics speak to me so much - hope you get blessed!

MercyMe - Hold Fast

To everyone who’s hurting
To those who’ve had enough
To all the undeserving
That should cover all of us
Please do not let go
I promise there is hope

Will this season ever pass
Can we stop this ride
Will we see the sun at last
Or could this be our lot in life
Please do not let go
I promise you there’s hope

You may think you’re all alone
And there’s no way that anyone could know
What you’re going through
But if you only hear one thing
Just understand that we are all the same
Searching for the truth
The truth of what we’re soon to face
Unless someone comes to take our place
Is there anyone
All we want is to be free
Free from our captivity Lord
Here He comes

Chorus:
Hold fast
Help is on the way
Hold fast
He’s come to save the day
What I’ve learned in my life
One thing greater than my strife
Is His grip
So hold fast

Anonymous said...

eprov posted: IF we really believed that the Holy Spirit is Lord, then somehow 90% of the comments on here are SELF serving. Regardless of my personal take on most scripture, to impose that as a definitive rule for all is not what it's about, my opinion. It is the same about God's will and God 'speaking to me.' We can know God but we cannot comprehend Him. So many assert comprehension. Reminds me of the late great Bible teacher, Dr. J. Vernon McGee, who said that when he graduated from seminary in his 30s he wrote a book and answered all the questions. He commented in his 70s that he had just begun to understand SOME of the questions. From my perspective revival and spiritual unity will never come thru debate or argument, but a 'contrite spirit' He will not despise. Where's the brokenness, whether leadership or laity?



REPLY: great post. I have said for weeks that this blog etc is all about flesh and self.

Unknown said...

2-4-6-8 who do we appreciate?

YAY GOD!

Thanks cjesus! :)

Karen

Anonymous said...

david: thanks for your post.

Choice: what is so wrong with David's last post or anyone them for that matter?

MOM4 said...

Sister Pam,
Thank you so much for the insight into your ministry with this church and these families. This is what the church should be all about. Those who seek power in the church should take a step back and reflect on this goal. This is truly the Great Commission we are called to pursue. We should all be thankful for Dr Rogers and the road he traveled, thereby showing us a more excellent way (I Cor. 12:31)

Unknown said...

hisservant-1.

I'm amazed (well, maybe not based on your posting history) that you would condone a post by david (who already has said he has no business with Bellevue except to stir up the blog), yet you have no words for him to stop blogging against NASS. NASS has done nothing but provide a place where BBC people could get together and discuss what's happening at our church. If you don't like the manner in which NASS has done this or the way the blog is run, why do you feel compelled to continue to blog yourself? You cut people down, to me you seem very full of yourself and your attitude towards some blogger is very condesending. Please don't tell me to go pick out examples of each of the above attributes I don't like about you because you know that you do these things and the way you come across is very haughty. I've avoided "getting into it" with you in the past because I think you enjoy riling the people up. Well, sir or madam, I'm just telling you what I feel and I refuse to fall victim to your verbal traps. If you don't like it, leave.

(Ooooh, did I sound like BBC leadership just then - my bad!)

MOM4 said...

Karen said...
hisservant-1......

You go girl! It is about time he got his comeuppance in a kind and gentle way, of course!!

Anonymous said...

Why do you ask the same questions over and over again? You get an answer and are not happy because they don't say what YOU want? You folk remind me of a bunch of spoiled brats. If YOU don't get what YOU want, you'll take your marbles and go home!
You are at the point where no matter what Dr. Gaines says or does, you'll never be able to follow him. I believe every time GOD moves a man out of the pulpit, HE has a man for that pulpit. It takes any pastor two or three years to become pastor of a church, give him a chance. GROW UP!

Unknown said...

Sister Pam,

How wonderful that David is in Heaven, but I know his new parents would have loved him to pieces! Sometimes there is too much suffering for little ones to bear and it's better to let them go! I pray for you in the endeavor to bring the Christmas Tree to Africa. Hey, if they can take the Passion Play to Uruguay, why can't the Tree go to Africa? What can I do to help?

Have a great day! Karen

Anonymous said...

This is NOT a Communication Committee, it's a belly-ache and gripe committee. I honestly believe you'll all answer to GOD for this1

Unknown said...

whyask,

To whom was your post addressed? No ones has said anything in the last couple of hours about anything you've just blogged about.

Just trying to help,

Karen

Unknown said...

whyask said...
This is NOT a Communication Committee, it's a belly-ache and gripe committee. I honestly believe you'll all answer to GOD for this1


You're right - the blog is not the Communications Committee. What are you talking about?

Karen

allofgrace said...

To anyone who doesn't like this blog,
You're talking out of both sides of your mouths. You come here and call everyone belly achers, but you all come here and belly ache about everyone else on here. It's really very simple...if you don't like here, don't come here...better yet...start your own blog where you can belly ache to each other about the belly achers.

allofgrace said...

And I would be careful about calling down God's judgement on anyone, or declaring who's going to answer to God for what, lest you end up answering for some things yourself.

Anonymous said...

This is becoming like a BAD REALITY show. What was meant as a place for people to discuss issues has taken a turn. Some of the wording used on here is embrassing. The sarcasm, the cutdowns, the retaliations of some Bellevue members is embrassing. I hope that there are no non members on this site so they see the way the members treat each other, or worse, the way they speak to non members, or much worse, non believers.

bowtheknee said...

Sister Pam,

Thank you so much for your wonderful uplifting posts! We will pray for this Canadian family who lost their little angel and for this new church meeting in a warehouse.

Glory to God!

Anonymous said...

whyask said...
Why do you ask the same questions over and over again? You get an answer and are not happy because they don't say what YOU want? You folk remind me of a bunch of spoiled brats. If YOU don't get what YOU want, you'll take your marbles and go home!
You are at the point where no matter what Dr. Gaines says or does, you'll never be able to follow him. I believe every time GOD moves a man out of the pulpit, HE has a man for that pulpit. It takes any pastor two or three years to become pastor of a church, give him a chance. GROW UP!

2:13 PM, November 28, 2006

Dear whyask,

Do you mind if I ask you if you have children? If you asked them a question and they didn't tell you the truth and you knew what the truth was before asking the question, would you just drop it? If you knew your child was not telling you the truth, what would you do?

I wonder what would have happened in John 4 if the Samaritan woman at the well had not been truthful with Jesus?

We know the woman at the well was no angel. In fact, she had quite a reputation being married 5 times and living in sin with a man who wasn't her husband.

The story is a wonderful story of grace that refreshes the soul parched by sin and suffering. God forgives any of us for wrongdoing if we seek forgiveness. Only after seeking forgiveness by admitting or confessing are we going to be able to have reconciliation.

Sadly, our pastor and even some of the committee members have been caught not telling the whole truth and sometimes none of the truth. I would venture to say that the questions are going to continue to come until the truth is confessed.

Confessing is wonderful. The spiritual refreshment that comes from the Lord after this is marvelous. Jesus knows the truth regardless of what comes out of any of our mouths. The truth will surely set you or me free. All of us on this blog want Bellevue to be the best church it can be. It will only get there by standing on Truth.

Why can't Pastor Gaines just come before the congregation and humbly answer questions that need to be answered by him and not men and women who only know what he tells them? Don't you see the hole that is being dug deeper and deeper as the days go on?

Anonymous said...

hisservant and whyask and ace and david the pastor and mike bratton

This is just an observation on my part so please do no be offended by my post.

I really think it would be easier for all the church issues to be resolved withour posts. Let me tell you why.

You are in the middle of group of people who need each other as they walk through all of this pain and so they spell out and spill out their feelings and also bring a lot of information and truth to each other and anyone who care to know.

I don`t know if I speak for anyone but myself when I say your posts give me the feeling you are here to defend and represent the church, even if you don`t. I often wonder if you are here because someone in leadership has sent you here, even if you are not.

My point is this, when you come to the blog and stir up things in a negative way, which you often do, it may cause some to place blame on the leadership at the church.

If you really love the church, why not let those who are here with real concerns for the issues at the church work things out together and just pray for us as we blog.

Again I it not my intention to offend anyone but I really think the posts you send retard reconciliation efforts.

I am also concerned that when all of these issues have been laid to rest, their will still be offenses unresolved between you and some on this blog.

Unknown said...

swtt,

Hang in there! Don't miss church Sunday night. Trust me?

david,

I'm at work right now, but will respond to you later. No hard feelings?

Karen

Anonymous said...

Flatfoot said...
This is becoming like a BAD REALITY show. What was meant as a place for people to discuss issues has taken a turn.

Flatfoot I just wanted to remind you that this is a place where people are dealing with very emotional issues and the flesh wins over many times in different posts but we don`t throw the baby out with the bathwater. We have to see that there is vital information here and a lot of truth. Each person should just take what is valuable to them and leave the rest. That`s what I do.

I hope that helps.

Anonymous said...

Pastor David,

Thank you for clarifying!

I think you were a little harsh with NASS so I would just ask that you pray and see if you owe her an apology.

Anonymous said...

Stillwaters,
I am not saying the site should be shut down, although I am not sure I would disagree with that either. I am only saying that it is very hard to read a persons tone in written form, and with emotions so high here, it comes across as bad will. I am just urging people to not react with cutdowns and sarcasm to the posts. Everyone thinks there opinion is important, even if others don't.

And I meant to say this earlier, I like the music at Bellevue under Jamie!

David Brown said...

This is from David B and NOT that other David.

Praise the Lord I am not that other David. I left Bellevue recently after being a member there for over 26 years. I felt all this discussion was effecting my witness. I did spend a lot of time in prayer before moving my membership. It was something I did not do overnight or on emotion.

I still love Bellevue. It will always be in my heart. Both of my sons were saved there and I met my lovely bride there too. But I was upset over some things. 26 years is a long, long time. I was part of carrying the chest to the new church. I coached and play basketball as well as softball there and even bowled at the old location.

I know there are hurting souls on both sides of this. I do agree with a recent poster that we should respond in love. It is ok to discuss your positon but respect the other one too.

David, if you are the "Pastor David" of last week, I do wish you would go away. Please take care of your own flock. I am beginning to seriously have doubts about your background. I have had my issues with the tone of hisservant-and Mike's post in the past but both of these are dear Christian men who have shown their tender side recently and it was so welcomed.

Now back to moving my membership. It was with regret but you want to know what has happened recently because of it? My sister-in-law and her husband both got saved at our new church as well as my niece. See God does have a plan. We just have to be willilng to submit to HIS WILL.

I would ask once again to remember there are great Christain people on both sides. As you debate, discuss or whatever please do it in kindness and love. And as I have said before one day soon, Bellevue will once again be one in the bond of love. I love you all.

Anonymous said...

whyask said...
Why do you ask the same questions over and over again? You get an answer and are not happy because they don't say what YOU want?

Whyask I think somehow you beleive that questions have been aswered completely and I want to make it clear to you that they have not.

If you will, post the questions that you think have been answered so we can see what questions you are referring to.

One of the biggest problmes in all of these issues is that no one wants to just come to the front and address the issues with all of the truth.

This is why you hear the same questions being answered.

I hope this helps you to understand why there are questions being repeated over and over again.

Anonymous said...

david said...
NASS,

I apologize for the harshness of my previous post. I am sure you are a person who honors the Word and our Lord Jesus.

I respectfully ask you in Christian spirit to prayerfully consider removing this blog site.

David

Pastor David, I really appreciate your apology to NASS.

bowtheknee said...

Gee Mike,

Where to start here. First of all I really don't care if you recognized me or not. We weren't exactly friends back then so it didn't matter one way or the other. And there are other BSUers at Bellevue as well that have never recognized me either. I could say it was because I was one of the quieter ones but that just would not be true! I was friends with Rhonda and Janie. I KNOW you remember Janie. She has been very ill lately in case you haven't heard. She is in need of prayer. My email is on my profile - we can talk about that privately if you want.

I could post my letter and the pastor's letter here however that would be broadcasting from CA to China so I will refrain. It was not a form letter. I would say he stuck with the talking points he must have been using from other letters he was receiving because basically he never answered my concerns but was obviously answering other people's concerns. Concerns he was also answering from the pulpit. And please don't attack me on this point. I heard him with my own ears and I just don't think it is right to address those types of concerns in the middle of a sermon. I'm sorry if you didn't hear him. In fact, I am amazed at what you don't hear. You are obviously a Rush fan. So am I. I have listened to him since I graduated from U of M in '92. I believe that you and I probably agree 99% of the time on politics. What I can't understand is how you can't see how this is related. Politics do come into play at churches. Unfortunate but so true.

I haven't heard too many posters call Steve Hitler or the CC/deacons Fascists. Actually Clinton comes more readily to my mind but this is the first time I've mentioned that out loud on a post. And I do mean Clinton minus the intern. And I don't want to argue about it - I can't really help what his behavior brings to my mind. Yes, I suppose I could pray about it some more.

Anyway the reason I wrote to him to begin with is because the Summersing program seemed to be scrapped for no reason. I am NOT against change. I am against change for the sake of change. I worked in the new summer program called Kid's Connection and nothing against it but it just isn't the same as a choir program for kids who love to sing. I think there is room for both summer programs but since I'm not in charge I have been overruled. And yes, I know it has been moved to the spring but the kids were already doing a program at the end of the school year (I'm pretty sure about this!!!) It might not have been an actual play but there was some type of musical program with choreography.

I would agree that I'm in the minority using my name however no one knows me and I could really care less. Many people have already stated their reasons for protecting themselves. I used to work with the kids in SS and I am pretty sure I would have been relieved of my job for posting on here. I don't go to B'vue anymore so I lose nothing by using my name. I'm not important enough for someone to show up on my doorstep and try to intimidate me. And I'm not easily intimidated anyway so anyone who wants can feel free to try it.

No, you haven't referred to a specific person as anti-Bellevue - you have referred to an entire group as that. And I would NOT be surprised how many people congratulate you for calling this particular group that because we can feel their hatred on a daily basis. Probably why "healingbalm" is ready to fly the coop. Add one more to the list of sheep fleeing to safer pastures.

I will not attack "swordoftruth" however I will say those remarks were out of line. You will notice I didn't say those remarks - he/she did. I don't condone every single thing that is said on here. I only condone what I have said. I will stick with what I have said probably forever because what I say is usually well thought out. I will say that most of the people posting on here are very frustrated/upset/and a host of other adjectives so if they step out of line I try to give them a break. I also try to give you a break but you make it very difficult sometimes.

And I will ask a question from here to China if that is the only way I can get an answer. We have heard testimony on this thread about how nothing was really answered and they will get back to you later. If no one on the CC is taking notes, how will they ever remember a question to get back to you about it?

I'll be glad to expound on my statement about Light and Truth. I think you would be a valuable ally in this mess if you would ever take your head out of the sand long enough to see/hear what is going on. And no I don't mean what is going on with this and other blogs. I mean what is going on at church. Let's face it. You are a huge guy. You must be at least 6 foot 6. Most people in their right mind don't want to argue with you. I'm 5'3" and I'll argue with you until the cows come home but we've already established I don't care what anybody on this earth thinks of me. I only care about what God thinks and I think you care about the same thing. I am asking you to pray and fast like you have never prayed and fasted in your life and stop acting like you are the all knowing (yes, I think I'm the all knowing too - takes one to know one) and ask the Lord for wisdom and discernment. God will give it to you if you ASK Him. He has given it to me on many occasions.

We will have to get together somewhere besides Bellevue - as already stated I don't go there anymore. I will be in choir Sunday morning at my safe haven where the sheep are loved and adored and allowed to have differing opinions. My pastor and I have already agreed to disagree at least once since we got there and I doubt it will be the last time. However he told us he loved us and didn't want us to leave. Does this sound a little different from what people are saying they were told at Bellevue? I know you won't admit it. Just think about it my brother in Christ.

Sincerely,

Diana Hart

Unknown said...

stillwaters,

Great advice: Each person should just take what is valuable to them and leave the rest. That`s what I do.

I'm guilty of letting personalities getting to me instead of focusing on the issues. I try not to say anything on the blog that I wouldn't say to someone's face, so if I'm guilty of that and have not yet spoken to or emailed you about that, please let me know.

We are all in this together, y'all. If Steve Gaines or any of the current leadership decides to leave, now or ever, us sheep still have to graze in the same pasture at 2000 Appling. So let's not tear each other down beyond repair. We're all working to one common goal - peace at Bellevue Baptist Church. Actually the ultimate goal is to hang out with y'all in Heaven, but I'll settle for peace at BBC for now.

Love ya! RAH! RAH! RAH! (I was appointed head cheerleader by cjesus today!)

Karen (turning cartwheels for Jesus!)

bowtheknee said...

David,

I can tell you that there are people on both sides of this issue who are grieved by the name calling and rolling in the gutter. I can't help what other people are posting but I can control what I post. NASS is doing the best job at this that can possibly be done. Some posts are being removed. Please give some of us some credit here, okay?

Diana

Anonymous said...

Flatfoot said...
Stillwaters,
I am not saying the site should be shut down, although I am not sure I would disagree with that either. I am only saying that it is very hard to read a persons tone in written form, and with emotions so high here, it comes across as bad will. I am just urging people to not react with cutdowns and sarcasm to the posts. Everyone thinks there opinion is important, even if others don't.

And I meant to say this earlier, I like the music at Bellevue under Jamie

Flatfoot thank you for explaining your feelings.

I like Jamie and I like some of the music he directs, I like to clap my hands when it is the Lord`s leading , I like to raise my hands to the Lord when it is the Lord leading, I like to dance before the Lord when it`s the Lord`s leading. I do this in the privacy of my prayer closet so I don`t just do these things at church.

When Jim Whitmire lead the music at Bellevue, I loved it and I worshipped exactly the same way as I do now.

BUT

I just have to tell you that I can worship to rhymn of the falling rain because when I worship the Lord, He is all I care about.

By the way, What do you think would happen if I started dancing before the Lord at Bellevue?

Unknown said...

stillwaters,

If I cartwheel for Jesus, you can dance up and down the aisles all you want! :)

On a serious note, I received word from a Gardendale member today that they are fervently praying for our church. Don't ask me for specifics on that; I'm just passing on the message.

Also, regarding worship style/direction, I guess we'll just have to pray that God will either change our heart so that we can worship Him or change Jaime's heart to lead us in the way God wants Him to. To me, that's a "preference" issue - you can't please everyone all the time, so pray that God will be blessed regardless of how we feel about it.

Karen

Anonymous said...

Karen then Would you beleive that the music leader directs your personal worship?

I don`t know how you would answer my question but the Holy Spirit leads me into worship and I really have found myself drifting off with the Lord without music or like I said before to the rhymn of the falling rain!

I restrict my worship in public worship only if I know it might offend the church.

I am not for any man teaching worship or instructing worship per sey but I do yield to church order.

I believe that we are to live a lifestyle of worship and I am sure you agree!

I also believe that all the sin in the camp is hindering true worship.

If sin blocks our prayers does it not also block our worship?

Unknown said...

stillwaters,

I apologize for you making light of your previous post after reading your next post. I believe that true worship is between you and God. However you feel that God is leading you to worship is how you should worship. Take a look at cafekudzu.com - he's got a thread on there about true worship that is really good - look at November 10th in the Archives.

I don't think active sin in the church would block personal worship unless you let it. Anybody, does God "punish" the whole church if the leadership is out of fellowship? (PLEASE don't think I'm asking specifically about BBC; I'm just asking). I think God's blessings can be withheld from a church - would he ignore worship of an individual?

I worship in my car in rush hour so if I have a nasty thought about a car that cut me off, does that then block my worship? I dunno - I just know I'm in a better mood when I get home if I listen to KLOVE instead of Rock 103.

For what it's worth,

karen

Anonymous said...

ALL THE NIT-PICKING BACK AND FORTH IS NOT GOING TO SOLVE ANY OF THE PROBLEMS AT BBC.

THE ONLY THING THAT WILL WORK IS THE POSTING OF COLD HARD FACTS OF WRONG DOING THAT CANNOT BE REFUTED.

Anonymous said...

Sunshine,

Did you know you are shouting when you use all caps? I thought I'd let you know in case you are new to this.

Fact #1;
Mark Dougharty went to David Smith and Bryson McQuiston and told them Pastor Gaines had a dream about a member of Bellevue. In this dream, the member reminded the pastor of a demon possessed man that followed Paul around. He then told these two staff members that Pastor Gianes wanted this man wacked. If you want to check this out with the source, go to David Smith and or Bryson McQuiston and ask them. They will verify this happening.
Fact 2: Pastor Gaines has denied he ever had a dream.
Fact 3: Mark Dougharty said the pastor had a dream, then he didn't remember the pastor having a dream, then to the deacons "if someone said I said that, then I must have but don't remember it".
Fact 4: Pastor Gaines, Mark Dougharty, Chuck Taylor, Harry Smith have refused to get David Smith and or Bryson McQuiston in a room with witnesses to all give their side of the story. If you don't believe this, go ask Mark Sharpe. He has been asking for this since May 2006. This is what Mark Sharpe says got him to go further with information coming from other staff members and the Finance Office of Bellevue.

Anonymous said...

Diana Hart: I wish there were more posters like you on this board. with your attitude etc. I have said over and over that I understand we are all different people and we are not going to agree on everything. I just DO NOT understand the horrible posts I read on this blog. It is not just the content, but the tone. Just like in many of the Committee meetings, many have been very rude and disrespectful. I have been called names on here many times and personally attacked etc. I just do not get it. Most on here always have an excuse. It is many times because they are hurting etc. Guess what, they are not the only ones hurting!! That is no excuse for some of horrible posts on this board. When will the excuses end?

David has challenged many of you on different things and you have not liked it. David has asked many of you to justify this blog and the horrible things on it with scripture. you cannot do it and in turn you get frustrated and mad at David and others.

I we are saved and walking with Christ, we are bond servants. We are to be dead to self and dead to flesh. It should always be about Christ and NOT about us. Read this blog and tell me it is all about Christ.

Anonymous said...

HisServant-1,

I agree with you that there have been a lot of things said to people and about people that have been uncalled for and disrespectful. I am dissapointed on some of the things I've heard our own staff and deacons say to and against the membership. I hope more people with different views behave in a manner that is respectful and just the facts.

May you have a peaceful evening.

Tim said...

hisservant-1,

Look at our church and tell me that it is all about Christ.

Anonymous said...

Tim: for once, lets not put the focus off on something else. I am not going to get into this or anything else with you.

Tim said...

How can anyone possibly be critical of those here, considering the things that have been done by the administration, the staff and the deacons?

This is the purpose of this blog.

This forum was created to provide a place where those who are seriously concerned about the issues facing Bellevue Baptist Church can come to comment and exchange ideas in a respectful, Christian spirit. The purpose of this blog is not to confront sins affecting us individually but sins that affect us congregationally. Remember that whatever you write here could ultimately be read by the world, so please consider your words carefully and set the right tone before you hit "Publish."

Tim said...

For the most part, we are concerned members of Bellevue, who would like to gain understanding of the issues and gain information about them. For the most part, we would also like to get some resolution to these issues.

Occassionally, a poster will come in to disrupt what was otherwise an orderly meeting. Then they claim that there is a problem. What do you suppose would happen if someone showed up at church every Sunday with the intent of creating a scene?

Unknown said...

tim,

you have email.

Anonymous said...

This forum reminds me of the days when CB radios were popular and no one left home with out one.

You hit the road, turn it on and all of a sudden discover the foul and useless language of truckers.

The language on this blog may not be foul but for the most part it sure is useless.

GOT IT?

bowtheknee said...

hisservant-1,

I must say I nearly fainted when I read your post to me!

Now be a dear and be nice to Tim. He's a friend of mine. He means well I can assure you. As I said before, we are all very frustrated. The frustration is on both "sides" if you will. We could all probably tone it down a notch.

To all: I haven't been to a CC mtg since I'm no longer a member. I have no idea what goes on there except what I'm reading here. I would suggest to everyone who is asking a question to try your hardest to be respectful no matter what is said. Now I do not mean be a doormat. Whether the people who are supposedly answering questions are respectful to you is not the point. What is that saying? You can catch more bees with honey? Don't let anyone steam roll you, don't back down - stand for Christ, but try to be respectful.

Love to you all!

Diana

Tim said...

sunshine,

There have been quite a few issues that we have obtained answers to here. We have discovered that not everything that has come from the administration, staff or deacons is always the truth. We have also discovered that not everything that comes from every member is true either. However, for the most part when someone on this blog is corrected, they apologize and we move on. There are some what I suppose I would call "well meaning supporters of Dr. Gaines" that believe that they are doing him a favor by coming here and creating a stir. The only thing I can really say to that is with friends like that, who needs enemies.

allofgrace said...

sunshine,
If you find it so useless...then why waste your time here? Surely you can find something you deem to be more worthwhile to read or do?

Anonymous said...

sunshine,

You remind me of someone who wakes up in China and salutes the chinese flag and pledges allegiance to the government because they are in authority over you. Then the chinese government sensors all internet communications for the Chinese citizens because they know what's best for you. Then you defend the government at all cost because they keep telling you that what you are seeing is not true, that what you may hear with your own ears is not really true. So you say ok. You really want to ask questions but you know that if you do, it will be curtains for you so you fall in line. You may actually be on the payroll of the government putting out the company line or propaganda.

Don't get upset with us because we have seen the changes with our own eyes. We have heard the words come from Pastor Gaines with our own ears. Many of us have talked with people first hand that tell a different story. Staff members have been uprooted affecting the lives of spouses and children. These are real people and real tragedies. The other issues that people who are close to the situation are bringing forth must be dealt with. There has just been to much wrong that has already occured to say there can't be any truth to it.

Anonymous said...

Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience.
C. S. Lewis

Anonymous said...

Some RULES FOR ARGUMENTS:
1. Avoid loaded language (don't make your argument look good by mocking or distorting the other side. Generally, people advocate a position for sincere reasons. Try to figure out their view--try to get it right---even if you disagree entirely.)

2. Start from reliable premises. (no matter how well you argue from premise to conclusion, your conclusion will be weak if your argument is weak. For example, "Nobody in the world today is really happy. therefore it seems that human beings are just not made for happiness. Why should be expect what we can never find?"

This argument assumes that nobody in the world is really happy. Is this premise plausible?

Some classical fallacies:

1. Affirming the consequent.
for example,
When the roads are icy, the mail is late.
The mail is late.
Therefore the roads must be icy.

This is a fallicy. the mail MAY be late for other reasons.

2. Poisoning the well: using loaded language to disparage an argument before even mentioning it.
for example:
"I'm confident you haven't been taken in by those few holdouts who still haven't outgrown the superstition that..." or a more subtle way to poison the well might be to say, "no sensitive person thinks that..."

The above material comes from a book by Anthony Weston entitled "A Rulebook for Arguments."

Anonymous said...

I am an outsider who follows this blog daily with interest. You have a host of witnesses who follow your struggle. Heb. 12:1-2 I have bought a DVD, "God's Outlaw", the story of William Tyndale and I have watched it for the third time! This is the story of how one man can change the world for good. History turns when common farmers read the Bible in their language and they can understand if for themselves. Please don't stop this blog. Perhaps there is a deeper reason than just your immediate grievance. God moves by his Spirit to bring revival and reformation in these ways and often against the grain of established leadership.

New BBC Open Forum said...

david wrote:

"david said...
NASS,

I apologize for the harshness of my previous post. I am sure you are a person who honors the Word and our Lord Jesus.

I respectfully ask you in Christian spirit to prayerfully consider removing this blog site.

David"


Thank you, David. I appreciate that. I accept your apology and will continue praying daily about the role of this blog and the direction it should take. I'm confident I'll know when the Lord is telling me it's time to quit.

NASS

Anonymous said...

Whynotask,

The Lewis quote can advocate either side of this problem. The leadership is doing all of this "for the good of the church" and to "protect her." And the saving bellevue people are doing what their doing, "for the good of the church and to protect her." Yet no one has been perfectly pure in all ways and there have, no doubt, been people trampled on "for their own good."

You have no idea where I stand on anything. To you I am simply "grumpy" based on a quotation, an earlier expression of frustration with the sarcasm that creeps up in these and other blogs, and a list of rules for arguments which i wrote so that maybe we'd all think and not just react. Myself included. So much of what has gone on at Bellevue has infuriated, confused, frustrated, and saddened me. And there have been other things that have encouraged me and given me hope and renewed perspective. But I've also prayed that I would THINK and not simply emote or react.

Anonymous said...

AllofGrace,

You are correct. I am through with this forum because nothing is being accomplished by all of the long winded personal opinions that don't amount to a hill of beans.

The big boys are in control at BBC and it will take a bombshell to blast them out.

Until you have the smoking gun, just forget it.

Anonymous said...

ok what "they're" doing not what "their" doing. haha sorry

Anonymous said...

Karen, I didn`t think you needed to apologize to me for anything, in fact, I got a well needed giggle out of your cart wheels for Jesus!

I do think that sin in the camp can influence corporate worship.

Does anyone think it would be ok for a drunkard to lead worship or that a homosexual pastor or worship leader could douse corporate worship?

I want to say it does but I am open to listening to others on this subject.

I once sat under a pastor who was given to lying and adultry and all of it was hidden from most of us.

He was an awesome preacher and I was feed very well and grew under his leadership and yet when all of the horrible things came to light, I was taken back.

It all gets confusing but I know that the word does not return void so I accounted my spiritual growth to the word and not to the man.

But somehow this man`s sins were so grievous that it rocked the church on it`s axis.

Once all of the sins came out, I could never sit under this preacher again.

He was living a double life. pretending and deceiving all of us and when everything surfaced the whole atmosphere of the church changed.

Tim said...

Folks,

I believe that we have fallen victim to a well executed attempt to keep us from accomplishing anything here. The idea is to keep arguments brewing so that nothing can be accomplished.

Let's move on to perhaps the most important question that needs to be asked.

Our by-laws date back to 1929 and have not been revised, when will our by-laws be revised to reflect congregationally approved church policy?

This one question can encompass and provide solutions to almost every other question asked.

allofgrace said...

stillwaters,
you are absolutely right...God honors His word...not the messenger..truth is truth even if it comes out of the mouth of a mule.

dewaynehartsoe said...

Tim

You are absolutely correct in saying that our bylaws are outdated and MUST be changed.

Tim said...

nhisname,

Have you seen a copy of any other churchs that could be modeled?

Anonymous said...

sunshine said...
AllofGrace,

You are correct. I am through with this forum because nothing is being accomplished by all of the long winded personal opinions that don't amount to a hill of beans.

The big boys are in control at BBC and it will take a bombshell to blast them out.

Until you have the smoking gun, just forget it.

Sunshine. I think there is a smoking cannon so I don`t understand your thoughts here.

The Big Boys may have control but even Big Boys will one day bow to the truth, either here or on judgement day. I wish it would be here.

I don`t want to discouage anyone but the Bible plainly speaks that in the last days the light will become brighter and the darkness will become darker so that there will be a clear line drawn on good and evil.

I love our pastor, Jamie, and the rest but I can defend the lies, the deceit, the intimidation, the yoyo they have put us all on....

This blog may be a bit fleshy but the light is here and dark is with the pastor and those who joined him in this great deception.

By the way, it is not insult to me if anyone says they see us in our flesh here. I don`t know anyone who can always walk in the spirit even when they make it their goal. If they could they would be super human, so why state an obvious fact or use this to try and spur someone.

Tim said...

It may also be helpful for you to know that many Baptist Constitution/Bylaws contain the following basic elements:

CONSTITUTION

PREAMBLE

NAME OBJECTIVES

STATEMENT OF BASIC BELIEFS

CHURCH COVENANT

POLITY AND RELATIONSHIPS

AMENDMENTS

BYLAWS

CHURCH MEMBERSHIP

NEW MEMBER ORIENTATION

RIGHTS OF MEMBERSHIP

CHURCH OFFICERS AND COMMITTEES
ALONG WITH THEIR
RESPONSIBILITIES

CHURCH MINISTRIES

GOVERNING COUNCIL FOR DECISION
MAKING PURPOSES

CHURCH ORDINANCES: BAPTISM AND
LORD'S SUPPER

SPECIAL CHURCH MEETINGS

QUORUM

PARLIAMENTARY RULES STATEMENT

CHURCH OPERATION MANUAL
OUTLINING ADOPTED CHURCH
POLICIES

AMENDMENTS

dewaynehartsoe said...

Tim

No, I haven't. I do have a few friends who pastor a church and I may be able to get some ideas from them. I will check that out.

I'll let you know wha tI find out.

Anonymous said...

A FAQ taken from the CC website:

Question: Are there problems with our bylaws?

CC Answer: No. Bylaws are legally required by the state, and our bylaws were approved by the church in 1929. They are a reflection of the biblical principles that serve as the ultimate authority for governance of the church. Dr. Adrian Rogers summed up our church's operational philosophy by saying that "Bellevue is pastor led, deacon served, committee operated, and congregationally approved." This model has changed little in the past 30 years.

The CC has ratified the fact that the bylaws are legally binding.

Our current board of directors include:

Bruce Brooke, Chuck Fullerton, John Addison, Jeff Arnold, Tom McCormack, and Harold Shipman (we are allowed seven but only have six currently). Section III of our bylaws says this about our board of directors:

“The directors of the corporation shall be seven in number, shall serve for one year or until their successors are duly elected and qualified and shall be elected by the members of said Bellevue Baptist Church at the last monthly business meeting prior to the end of each calendar year, beginning with the year 1929. Any vacancy in the Board of Directors shall be filled by the directors for the unexpired term. An annual meeting of the Board of Directors shall be held on the (same) day that the congregation of said church holds its last business meeting of the year. Special meetings of the Board may be held at any time or place upon three days written notice, upon call of the President, or upon call of two-thirds of the members of the board; or such meeting may be held without notice, by unanimous consent, such consent to be expressed by written wavier of notice, or by attendance at such meeting.”

1. The directors are to be elected by us.

2. They are to be elected at the last monthly business meeting prior to the end of each calendar year (sometime in the next 34 days).

3. The election is to be held during a business meeting (as opposed to an information meeting).

Let’s find out when this meeting is scheduled and vote for those we think would give us the best representation in our church.

allofgrace said...

Tim,
Thanks for posting that. The main point is...however a church is governed...there must be mutual accountability..otherwise there's only chaos. Because we all still carry around these fleshly natures, we need that accountability...we all have blind spots...God is a God of order, not chaos.

Tim said...

stillwaters said...

By the way, it is not insult to me if anyone says they see us in our flesh here. I don`t know anyone who can always walk in the spirit even when they make it their goal. If they could they would be super human, so why state an obvious fact or use this to try and spur someone.

Reply:

Stillwaters,

I probably appreciate your comment concerning the flesh as much if not more than anyone. It reminds me of the Paul's remark in scripture. That which I would that do I not, that which I would not that I do. There is a war that is within us and it impossible to overcome it all the time.

Thanks for the post it was a comfort.

By the way I have become working on a set of by-laws that I hope to be able to post either late tonite or in the morning.

Anonymous said...

TIM

I sent NASS a copy of the GBC bylaws via email. They need some work but may help you a bit.

Anonymous said...

Say folks, don't you know that before you can hope to update the bylaws or vote on the board of directors, you must have a called business meeting.

I've never seen a business meeting of any kind at BBC. Some where in the distant past, the congregation gave the staff the authority to run the day to day operations of the church with no oversite.

Therein lies the problem.

Tim said...

Constitution & By-Laws of Bellevue Baptist Church
CONSTITUTION AND BY-LAWS
OF
BELLEVUE BAPTIST CHURCH

PREAMBLE
For the more certain preservation and security of the principles of our faith, and to the end that this body may be governed in an orderly manner consistent with the accepted tenets of the missionary Baptist denomination (Southern Baptist), and for the purpose of preserving the liberties inherent in each individual member of this church and the freedom of action of this body, with respect to its relation to other churches of the same faith, we declare and establish this constitution:

CONSTITUTION
I. Name:
This body shall be known as the Bellevue Baptist Church of Memphis, TN, and shall exist for the maximum period allowed by the laws of this state unless sooner lawfully dissolved.
II. Church Covenant:
(See copy attached as adopted by the church at its organization in 1929)
III. Articles of Faith:
The doctrinal statement of the church is the same that is entitled The Baptist Faith and Message which was adopted by the Southern Baptist Convention in session at Kansas City, Missouri, on May 9, 1963, a copy of which is attached.
IV. Character of the Church:
Section I. Polity: The government of the church is vested in the body of believers in Christ who compose it. It is subject to the control of no other ecclesiastical body, but it recognizes and sustains the obligations of mutual counsel and cooperation which are common among Baptist Churches.
Section II. Doctrine: This church receives the Scriptures as its authority in matters of faith and practice. Its understanding of the truth as contained therein is in essential accord with the belief of Baptist Churches as indicated in the articles of faith herewith.
V. Purpose:
This church, believing in the Bible as the inspired word of God and the sole authority for faith and practice, acknowledging its adherence to all the teachings of Jesus Christ, and cooperating with the Tenneesee Baptist Conference, and the Southern Baptist Convention, as well as the associations and agencies related to each, declares its purpose to be: (1) to maintain regular services, both devotional and for public worship: (2) to Proclaim earnestly the Gospel message and urge its personal acceptance; (3) to cooperate heartily by prayer and gift of service in an effort to establish the Kingdom of Christ throughout the world; (4) to promote systematic Bible study and training for Christian service, an to encourage in every possible way, life enlistment in some form of religious activity; (5) to secure as far as possible, as taught in the sacred Scriptures (James 1:27), the practice of true religion and Christian philanthropy; and (6) to own, purchase or sell property, to incur debts, float debentures and transact such business as is necessary to carry out the above stated purposes.
VI. Dissolution:
In the event of the dissolution of this church, all of its remaining assets, after payment of liabilities, shall be distributed to one or more Southern Baptist charitable organizations or churches.
Constitution & By-Laws of Bellevue Baptist CHurch

BY-LAWS
Article 1. Place of Worship
The place of worship shall be at Appling Road, Memphis, TN, or at such other place as shall be designated by the congregation. The business of the church shall be conducted at such place of worship.
Article II. Membership:
Section I. Qualifications: The membership of this church shall consist of such persons as confess publicly Jesus Christ to be their Lord and Savior, and who: (1) after such examination by the church as to their Christian experience and if coming from other churches as to their letter of dismission and recommendation or satisfactory substitutes therefore, (2) have been baptized scripturally, (3) and enter into its covenant.
Section II. Duties: Members are expected first of all to be faithful in all duties essential to the Christian life; and also to attend habitually the services of this church, and to give regularly for its support and causes, and to share in its organized work.
Section III. Rights: Such members as are in full and regular standing, and such only, may act and vote in the transactions of the church.
Section IV. Quorum (10%): Ten percent of the resident membership shall constitute a quorum for the transacting of all routine business. To call a pastor or to buy or sell property, twenty-five percent of the resident membership shall be required for a quorum.
Section V. Termination of Membership: The continuance of membership shall be subject to the principles and usage's of Baptist churches and especially as follows: (1) Any member in good and regular standing who desires a letter of dismission and recommendation to any other Baptist church is entitled to receive it upon his request. (2) If a member in good standing requests to be released from his covenant obligations to this church for any reason which the church may finally deem satisfactory, after it shall have patiently and kindly endeavored to secure his continuance in its fellowship, such requests may be granted, and his membership terminated. (3) The church may also, after due notice and hearing, terminate the membership of persons for the space of one year non-resident, or for the same space of time, not habitually worshipping with the church. (4) Should a member become as offense to the church and to its good name by reason of immoral or unchristian conduct, or by consistent breach of his covenant vows, or of non-support of the
church, the church may terminate his membership, but only after due notice and hearing and after faithful efforts have been made to bring such member to repentance and amendment. (5) The membership of no person shall be terminated (except by letter to another church) at the meeting when the recommendation for such action is made. (6) All requests for termination of membership or action looking thereto shall first be considered by the deacons, who shall make recommendation to the church.
Section IV. Restoration of Membership: Any person whose membership has been terminated for any offense may be restored by 51% vote of the church upon evidence of his repentance and reformation; or if on account of continued absence, upon satisfactory explanation.
Article III. Church Officers:
Constitution & By-Laws of Bellevue Baptist Church
The officers of the church shall consist of pastors, staff , deacons, church clerk, treasurer, trustees, heads of various departments of the church organization and other officers the church may deem necessary.
Section I. Pastor: The pastor shall be a duly ordained Baptist minister of the Gospel, in full fellowship with the denominational agencies with which the church is cooperating. He shall be called for an indefinite period of time unless otherwise agreed upon at the time of the call. There shall be a minimum ballot vote of 75% of the membership in favor of calling any particular man before a pastoral call is extended. (See quorum required for a pastoral call in Article II. Section IV.) In calling a pastor the church shall consider only one man at a time.
The pastor shall give leadership and oversight to the ministries of the church, leading the church in its ministry of proclaiming God's Word to believers to foster their spiritual growth, and to unbelievers to win them to faith in Jesus Christ, leading the church in a caring ministry to church members and other persons in the community for the meeting of personal needs, giving direction to the administration of the ordinances of baptism and the Lord's supper, and guiding the church to be a loving fellowship united and a growing commitment to the New Testament objectives for the church. He shall share responsibility with the deacons, and other church workers, motivating, equipping and overseeing the church membership in the performance of its ministry.
Section III. Staff: Staff positions may be recommended by a pastor but must be approved by a 75% ballot vote by the deacon body.
Section IV. Deacons: Deacons shall be elected for three year terms as may be determined by the church, nominated by secret ballot from the adult membership of the church. Nominees shall be interviewed and upon agreeing to serve if elected, election shall proceed at the next regular business session following their nomination, to select the number of deacons the church wishes to elect at that time. Deacons shall be co-laborers with the pastor in leading the church in proclamation of God's Word to believers and to unbelievers, in providing pastoral care to church members and other persons in the community, in developing the church's missionary outreach to the world, and in building and maintaining harmonious fellowship in the church. The deacons shall serve as a finance and budget committee, except when the church has elected another committee to care for these responsibilities. In keeping with congregational policy of the church (Article IV. Section I. of the Constitution), the body of deacons has only the power of recommendation to the church other than in matters of specific authority designated to them by the church from time to time.
Section V. Trustees: The trustees shall consist of not less that two members, one of whom shall be chairman and one secretary. They shall have legal care and custody of the property of the church and shall administer the same under such rules as may be prescribed by the church. The chairman and the secretary shall execute all legal documents and instruments as may be authorized by the church, and all instruments so executed shall become the official action of the church and , except in the case of fraud, shall not be contested.
Section VI. Clerk, Treasurer, and financial secretary: The clerk shall attend all regular and special conferences of the church and take minutes of the proceedings. He shall accurately keep the membership roll and assist the pastor in the receipts of new members. The treasurer shall keep accurate records of all the funds of the church and submit monthly reports to the church. He shall make books available at any time upon request of the church and shall cooperate with members of the finance committee in planning for the church's financial stability. The treasurer shall pay accounts and expend moneys as directed by the church. The financial secretary shall receive offering envelopes from the treasurer, and shall keep individual records to donations for all donors and shall issue receipts for all offerings as a matter of course at the end of the calendar year, or on other occasions by a special request of a donor.
Section VII. Other Officers: Officers to lead various organizations and carry out various functions in the church shall be elected as the church membership sees fit by 75% vote.
Article IV. Removal of Officers and Employees:
Constitution & By-Laws of Bellevue Baptist Church
Any officer my be removed by a 60% vote of the church at any time after having given thirty days' notice of such contemplated action. Any employee of the church may be removed, after approval by the deacons of such action, by the responsible administrative officer with a pay period notice or pay in lieu of notice.
Article V. Committees:
The pastor may recommend and deacons appoint such committees as deemed necessary or advisable for facilitating the work of the church upon approval of 70% of the church.
Article VI. Business Meetings:
Regular business meetings shall be held each month to report on church activities and to transact necessary business on the second Wednesday of each month following the Wednesday service. Special business meetings may be called by the combined efforts of the pastor and chairman of the deacons, a majority of the deacons or by 200 or more members of the church, with seven days' notice unless notice time is waived by 100% consent at a regular worship service. Business shall be conducted according to the precepts of "Robert's Rules of Order Newly Revised."
Article VII. Amendments:
This constitution and by-laws may be amended at any regular business meeting by a 75% majority vote, and after thirty days notice has been given of such intended amendment.

Tim said...

sunshine,

I already understand that, but we do have to have a starting point and I for one and am not going to sit around waiting for some one else to do it. I may not be the best on earth at it and I am certainly not the most qualified, but at least I can do something.

I believe that if we can at least reach an agreement that it needs to be done and that we have a credible document, then we will be able to make some head way within the church.

Please read over the by-laws that I posted and let me know what revisions or additions that you see that may be necessary. I would encourage you to e-mail back your revisions and high-light them in some way.

I believe that this may be the most productive way that we can proceed from where we are at.

Tim said...

Also just as side note to those that look at this. I read over dozens perhaps more from various Southern Baptist Churchs and choose one that most closely represented what I felt was a good set of by-laws. I had to make several modifications and there are still probably a lot that need to be done.

I just wanted to let folks know that I am not taking credit for the document.

Tim said...

memphismom02,

Excellant point. I am not sure if termination of staff was included in the draft. It is definetly something that needs to be there. I would have to think about it and perhaps get some input from others as to how that would be handled.

Anonymous said...

If what this group is after are new bylaws, why not start a petition for new bylaws. See how many support this and present it to the BBC leadership. See what happens!

Tim said...

memphismom02,

This is exactly why we need to push thru with a new set of by-laws. The 1929 version may have been fine when there were only 50 members and indeed it seemed to work well up until the recent past. It is however time that something be done and I believe that the majority of the church would agree that it is wrong to have decisions made by a select few that affect the entire body.

I believe with all my heart that if the prior administrations had seen this day, then we would have updated our by-laws a long time ago. Just my opinion but I can not imagine that Dr.Lee, Dr.Pollard or Dr.Rogers would not have wanted to do something of this nature instead of having the entire church suffer because it had not been done.

Tim said...

flatfoot,

I intend on doing just that. I also expect to hear "no" as an answer, but that is ok. I happen to believe that God would have us do every thing in an orderly manner.

Tim said...

NASS,

You need to tie a knot in this one and move us to another thread. I have DSL and it is slow to load. I can't imagine how folks on dial up can stand it.

Thanks,
Tim

Anonymous said...

Tim, I would just find it interesting to see how many signatures you actually get. As I have said before, the groups I hang with at BBC do not seem to have the same concerns as the people here on this "chat-blog".

Anonymous said...

cJesusname said:
.....where's the accountability for that?

Reply:
Has this person told Steve Gaines that he offended him and let him know this?

I am sure we all have said or done something before that has offended someone, and if so we should apologize, but we have to kow someone is hurt!

and yes I did capitalize the J in Jesus

Tim said...

flatfoot,

I believe that it was a majority that crucified Christ also. I am not trying to win a popularity contest. I believe that as a group here we are working toward the good of Bellevue and I appreciate the fact that there are some concerned enough to want to help during these trying days.

I also believe that the vast majority of the membership has no idea that our deacon body does not function has a democratic, representative body. They actually "vote" on issues about as often as the church does. Usually their "vote" consist of all in favor and in agreement to pray say Amen. That is something that will change however as they become informed of the truth.

Ask some of them and see when the last time was that they had a vote by ballot.

Remember that we were told that the deacon body present was 100% unanimous concerning the pledge and it must have been a shock that the well over half of those that weren't present weren't unanimous.

Anonymous said...

Tim, as far as the deacons go, I could not even tell you who my deacon is! Do not recall ever hearing from one

Tim said...

flatfoot,

That is another excellant point that I think should be covered in the by-laws. I believe that every member should be assigned to a deacon and that member should know who to contact if they have a problem or concern. I also, think it might not be a bad idea to allow a member to request a different deacon.

Anonymous said...

Thankfully we have been surrounded by great Bible Fellowship group leaderssince day one that have supported and cared for like I guess a Deacon would.

Anonymous said...

Flatfoot....come on! Are you serious? This person was visiting 2nd Baptist that night, not a member. Do you really think that Steve Gaines would talk to them, when he doesn't even want to talk to his own members? Isn't that what the CC is for, so Steve Gaines doesn't have to talk to us?
But if you think that would bring about humility from our pulpit and cause Steve Gaines to repent of his actions and appologize, sure I will gladly suggest that they try to do that. Do you have Steve's Cell # because I figure that's the only real way to get in touch with him without going through his host of people who answer for him. Let me know if you find it, ok? Thanks and sleep well!

Reply:
That is the exact sarcasm, and tone I was speaking of earlier. My post on tone was to the present and future posts on here. I cannot and will not speak for the pastor or anyone else.

and yes I think Gaines would talk to a visitor.

I really have no idea what the CC committe is for, if I had to guess it is a result of this very "chat-blog".

and yes, I think if enough people got together and told him they were offended about the 2nd baptist remarks, I think it would be very humbling.

and no I do not have his cell phone number.

and goodnight also

Anonymous said...

The whole experience thus far has been a tradgedy. It is like witnessing a wreck and the aftermath... Then looking at the witnesses on the street corner only to find them with their hands over their eyes or ears or mouth.

Truth does not fear light. Let your light shine, O Lord!

Tim said...

memphismom02,

I will admit that with a membership of 30,000 that 180 deacons would be spread awfully thin to try and meet with 166-170 member each. Perhaps that is something else that needs to be added to the by-laws. It would seem reasonable that we have one deacon for each 100 members.

Anonymous said...

Some of the congregation has awakened to the reality that our church is elder ruled by a close knit group of men who manage to be appointed to key positions year after year. The congregation needs to be awakened to this. I agree with Bin Wonderin:

We need:

1. An apology to the congregation for mocking us at Union City. After all, some of us didn't fall off the cabbage truck yesterday!

2. An admission the cheerleader tickets are not a legit moving expense and reimbursement to BBC.

3. An admission Dr. Gaines should have never given $25k to FUMC and an explanation of policy changes to prevent a repeat.

4. A policy for open books on Holy land trips and no overcharging of members. Free tickets for the host and wife are fine but not for anybody else

5. A quarterly business meeting with open mike Q&A with each committee chairman. Transcripts on the web within a week

**The current bylaws mention "monthly" business meetings! When were they changed??

6. A transparent committee selection process.

7. A good updated set of bylaws similar to GBC.

8. The signing of a public conflict of interest form for any member that has any business contract to provide services to the church. These people should be recused from committees that review bids for their services.

9. No church credit cards. Pay your own way and then turn in an expense report like I do at my job.

AND I would like to add...

10. A business meeting in accord with Matthew 18 to deal with the issues that remain related to Mark Sharpe and "the Dream"... AND any other loose ends that should have been dealt with months ago!!

11. The END of heavy handed dealing with ministers, staff, and members.

12. A whistle blower policy for ministers, staff, and members. Also:

13. Full disclosure of ministerial compensation: salary + benefit breakdown, etc.

14. Much greater congregational oversight of the current budget with a transparent policy for consideration of non-budgeted expenditures exceeding a reasonable amount.

15. Forgiveness for those in leadership who have allowed this to deteriorate to this point--AND consequences for their actions.

16. Building prayer buildings or any other type of building should be brought through proper channels to the congregation for prayerful consideration--not coerced "rubber stamping."

By the way, Dr. Rogers taught us quite a bit about prayer. As a matter of fact, I believe all of the current buildings ARE prayer buildings already. He and Dr. Whitmire also taught us quite a bit about worship also... but that's another topic.

17. Bellevue needs to reject Warrenism fully and finally.

18. Congregational nomination of and election of all of the Board of Directors as called for in the 1929 bylaws.

All in my opinion as usual.

Revival, reform, congregational oversight... for there is level ground at Calvary and "he who would be great among you shall be the servant of all."

Tim said...

Flatfoot,

I am worse than anyone in the sarcasm department and must admit that in my own case it is mostly caused by frustration, so try not to take it too personally.

I believe that there will be a number of people that once they realize that our by-laws have been in existence and unchanged since 1929 will realize that this is something that needs to be done. Especially if they read the ones from 1929. I believe that an agreement on the by-laws will be difficult, but not near as difficult as all of this has been because of the lack of them.

Anonymous said...

cJesusname,
Nothing would make me happier than for your friend to find Jesus.

Tim said...

cjesusnme,

I understand your suffering as well, my brother. It is difficult to have friends that do not have a home in heaven. It is even more difficult to see them driven away by someone that should be doing just the opposite.

Anonymous said...

Tim, we all fall intot he sarcasm trap, sometimes without relizing it.

but.. can someone explain #16 to me please?

16. Building prayer buildings or any other type of building should be brought through proper channels to the congregation for prayerful consideration--not coerced "rubber stamping."

Wasn't the prayer building we were going to build from the Love Offering like 2 years ago under Dr. Rogers? or am I not understanding his point?

Tim said...

memphismom02, 25+, flatfoot, cjesusnme,

This little sheepy has become sleepy, so with a turn of my head, I am off to bed. And when the morning is new, I hope to see you.

ok...I am tired...that was...just plain wierd.

Anonymous said...

No flatfoot...

Gaines said that we didn't know how to pray... After the ministry of Dr. Rogers, that was an amazing thing to say... He tried to push through a prayer building as part of his agenda...

Wednesdays, however have been the traditional time to teach the church about prayer... That may sound like sarcasm, but it is just a fact.

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