Time is of the essence as the ordination is scheduled for this Sunday, February 25th!
A petition to postpone the ordination of David Coombs until certain questions are resolved is now available to sign at Postpone the Ordination.
The petition reads as follows:
Postpone the Ordination of David Coombs
In accordance that all things be done honestly in the sight of all men, we believe that there is a discrepancy between what had been reported to the Commercial Appeal concerning the openness of the records of the Church and the actual behavior that David Coombs has presented both by letter and personal contact.
In accordance with the mandate by the Church to leave "no stone unturned" in the investigation surrounding a case of sexual child abuse, we believe that David Coombs was negligent in failing to interview the victim.
By report of and the confirmation by witnesses of his response to a dear lady who confronted him with the statement, "Pedophilia thrives in secrecy," following the investigative report presented to the Church, we believe that David Coombs has exhibited a lack of compassion and empathy that is necessary for the ministry.
It is our conclusion that it would be in the best interest of Bellevue Baptist Church to postpone the ordination of David Coombs to the ministry. We are in agreement with these and other issues in whole or part and that has caused us to petition the church on this matter.
You may sign anonymously, but it would be preferable if you sign with your real names as anonymous signatures cannot be verified. A place to leave your comments is provided, and I would encourage everyone who signs to comment as well.
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552 comments:
«Oldest ‹Older 401 – 552 of 552faithnhope said
The question was, is Dr. Gaines pocketing money for the Greece trip this year and the answer is no.
Piglet says:
Only because we have our eye on him. ;)
Ok, Cakes here,
Get out your dictionaries.
Bratton, for the love of (insert divinity here), would you just can it with your silly equivalences. Always braying about the same dookie--have you no mind of the power differential between a rag-tag group of the church body, with a legitimate gripe, against the money, lawyers, consultants, stage lights and slick production crew.
And I blush at the thought that you cannot think of anyone who has suffered negative consequences by openly challenging the leadership, thus serve as the basis for fearing recriminations, no.
And please don't crow anymore about calling for a business meeting (how about in 2040?) without qualifier or your tsk-tsk at the Padre posted on your blog. Many here wish you'd relocate those kidd gloves.
Sir, you scruff it up and lob verbal turnips with the best of these, and much of your logic (and "facts") are not sober--more like a three-day-drunk(wordwise)--so I always crack up with the "there y'all go again" routine.
Cakes: Have I told you lately I love you? Seriously, thanks for saying what I tried to say and failed.
music guy
Granted, as church members, you should know how and where the money that is given to the church through tithes and offerings is spent, but I think you can accomplish much of the same by knowing in general what is budgeted for staff/personnel salaries and benefits as a whole. Or at least in BBC's case, broken down by ministry area or division as a whole.
Piglet says:
Unfortunately, now that pastoring a mega has become a pitfall of greed for so many, it is necessary to publish the salaries. Look where we are. Very sad.
Cakes,
I just laughed so hard I cried!! Thanks!!! I needed that - turnips and all;)
Ah, sending the boo-dist some love, eh? Well I love all of you.
Greetings from the pure land.
scoombs
Could you please tell me:
If there were corruption in church leadership, how do you think it WOULD manifest itself?
And, how would YOU deal with it?
Thanks. :)
Trollcakes said...
Ok, Cakes here,
Get out your dictionaries.
Bratton, for the love of (insert divinity here),
Let me be the first--and the only one, so far--to ask, since the Christian God most of us here (including myself) worship is the only "divinity" you had in mind, that you refrain from such disingenuous phraseology in the future. You injure yourself, and you insult those of us who are Christians.
would you just can it with your silly equivalences. Always braying about the same dookie--have you no mind of the power differential between a rag-tag group of the church body, with a legitimate gripe, against the money, lawyers, consultants, stage lights and slick production crew.
Of course I am--and probably more aware of it than they are.
Or hadn't you considered that I just might think it's a good idea that the contrarians around here get a hearing?
How successful has the "rag-tag, fugitive fleet, on a lonely quest for a shining planet known as Earth" (Sorry, I had a Battlestar Galactica flashback) actually been in dialoguing? Not very?
Do you think if they cleaned up their collective act that they just might be able to open up some serious dialogue? I do, beyond the shadow of any doubt or peradventure.
And I blush at the thought that you cannot think of anyone who has suffered negative consequences by openly challenging the leadership, thus serve as the basis for fearing recriminations, no.
Then name someone. We can discuss it from there.
And please don't crow anymore about calling for a business meeting (how about in 2040?) without qualifier or your tsk-tsk at the Padre posted on your blog. Many here wish you'd relocate those kidd gloves.
To borrow a Quaker phrase, speaking truth to power doesn't give people the prerogative to throw knives at power.
Yes, I constantly "crow"... heh heh heh...
Sir, you scruff it up and lob verbal turnips with the best of these,
Such as?
and much of your logic (and "facts") are not sober--more like a three-day-drunk(wordwise)--
Such as?
so I always crack up with the "there y'all go again" routine.
It's often said that laughter is the best medicine.
--Mike
Esther,
You have mail.
Dee
Ezekiel,
Did you hear LWF this morning? Very powerful on apostasy in the last days. The Word of God is strongly advocated as a deterrent--also LOVE. You should listen. You will be edified by it.
Lord Jesus, thank you for Ezekiel who is faithful to do battle on this blog with Your Sword of Truth. Amen
Dee
Esther said...
Music guy, Paul made tents.
I am assuming that you mean that Paul was "bivocational"? I have also made a living elsewhere while doing ministry part time. All I'm saying is that it's a bit disconcerting to a minister to have everyone in the church know how much money he makes just because they "pay his salary". I would venture to say that the money those staff members spend in stores and on products and utilities, etc., go to pay the salaries of many church members, either directly or indirectly. But those staff members have no idea (nor do they want to know) how much those salaries are.
Hi CAKES!!!!
Welcome back, Love to you.
Turnips, eh...are you from Ms, Ar or Mo??
You help keep us smilin'!!
Mike Bratton,
You are battling the wrong people.
Thank you, Lord Jesus, for Mike Bratton, your child who is great with words and arguments. Show him it is hard for him to kick against the goads. Soften his heart towards us and show him the way to the truth and how he can be used to stand for the truth with us to help us achieve victory for your honor and glory, Father. Amen.
Dee
Question for anyone...why are some of the names being deleted from the petition? Some of them are obviously fictitous names, but some of the ones that have been deleted seem to be legitimate??
music guy, ministry does not sound like it is for you. Most Baptist churches make salaries known. it is called: Accountability.
It is that way in many non profits, too. As a matter of fact, Billy Grahams salary is on the internet on BGEA's 990. I can look up Chuck Swindoll's, Paul Crouch, (ouch), and all their administrators. That is public information required by law yet you don't think the tithing members should know your salary? Who sets it?
I didn't say that I don't understand that most SBC churches do that. I'm saying that it's a bit of a double standard for everyone to know what the youth or music guy makes. I've been a Sounthern Baptist my whole life--so I KNOW how it works. We seem to be back to a point here. What makes you qualified to judge me anf if ministry is "for me"? I made no judgemental comments about any one nor made any personal attacks. I merely staded some opinions that I hold after many years in the ministry.
Ah, getting more verbose? Well, something cut through, and I thank you for enuciating a little. There is, in logic and life, those truths that do not need to be reiterated--I will not ask you why you're all wet if it is raining.
Nor will I spell out matters that, except for extreme gullibility or blind loyalty, are common knowledge. I don't know any of you, but I can see, and know personally, people that are deeply troubled, alienated, and some, intimidated by this cabal. Haven't seen anybody deeply hurt or intimidated on this blog, eh?
Or wait, they don't count if they don't identify themselves. It would would be a fools errand to lay out the names of ex-deacons, ex-church members, my friends and family, the unsuspecting children, outspoken members, members seeking an open forum, etc. you full well know about.
I'm not playing dumb; please reciprocate.
Personal note to S. Coombs….once again I give you my advice, please refrain from posting. Those of us who have served in the church for years know you dad to be a man of the highest integrity. But this board isn’t a search for truth…..but I did enjoy the comparison to the movie. It is not that they cannot handle the truth; they just cannot recognize the truth.
Karen, I apologize for not responding to your questions. I had some out of town travel to do and just haven’t taken the time to respond. First as to the question does anyone have Steve Gaines ears? I hope so and I hope it is David Coombs. Karen, if you knew David as I’ve known him for many years you would be as embarrassed as I with regards to some of the statements and slander made about him. I am not a person who is easily fooled and have enough years of doing business deals to know when someone is genuine or not. David Coombs is one of the finest men that I’ve had the privilege to know. You may have read Steven’s comments about the incident with SOTL. You guys amaze me that you so easily accept such a one sided account form someone that most of you don’t have years of experience of knowing the character of that person. I am sorry that she was a victim of sexual abuse. But that doesn’t allow her a free card to slander a man whose reputation is proven both in the business world and in our church with 40 years of faithful service.
I will not comment on the situation as it is with Bro. Steve. I will say again, he is my pastor and I am to respect that position. I have enough faith in our lay leadership that the right decisions will be made for our members. I am neither a fool nor blind but have faith in men of God who have proven to me for many, many years that they have the best interest of Bellevue in their heart.
To concernedbbcer I don’t make my email available because it’s involves my business and I would not want my business email made public.
To David Brown – David, I do not know you but I do respect what you are doing. I am sorry that you were a victim and I support your efforts to help other victims. I find what PW did to his son to be horrendous. I know that Bro. Steve and our staff mishandled this situation in the worst possible way. Dr. Rogers would have handled it quickly and decisively. But you nor will any victim try to intimidate me from supporting my church and men that I know to be of honor and integrity. And yes I am willing to answer to Jesus and I do know his love for small children. That wasn’t really your message though, was it? I sense that we are witnessing some misplaced anger. You may want to defend SOTL but her posts concerning men (specifically DC) who love God are reprehensible! And I will continue to speak against the injustices the same as you.
faithnhope -
Hi 'Faith'. Sorry to hear you left Bellevue. :-(
Wasn't your husband a policeman?
jmo,
It is not that they cannot handle the truth; they just cannot recognize the truth.
You have got to be kidding me.
Jeremiah 5:1-3
1 Run ye to and fro through the streets of Jerusalem, and see now, and know, and seek in the broad places thereof, if ye can find a man, if there be any that executeth judgment, that seeketh the truth; and I will pardon it.
2 And though they say, The LORD liveth; surely they swear falsely.
3 O LORD, are not thine eyes upon the truth? thou hast stricken them, but they have not grieved; thou hast consumed them, but they have refused to receive correction: they have made their faces harder than a rock; they have refused to return.
It is not that they cannot handle the truth; they just cannot recognize the truth.
Furthermore, jmo, this is quite the absolute statement coming from a person who identifies himself as "just my opinion."
(I'd like to thank the little people... you know who you are.)
esther is right - I believe Jesus said it this way:
John 14:15
If you love me, you will keep my commandments.
John 14:21a
Whoever has my commandments and keeps them, he it is who loves me
Ok....
I was getting caught up on the posts today as I'm not able to post at work.
S Coombs, pardon the harshness here, but your arrogance towards some of the others is totally offensive.
That being said, David Coombs has no business being ordained. If he was not willing to interview the victim in the investigation, to me that means he was putting spin on the report making the report invalid and worthless. As for integrity, I do not see any integrity in the current bellevue leadership. Until Gaines and the rest of the Bellevue Mafia begin to be honest with the people, the shadow of distrust and corruption will still remain.
JMO said
You guys amaze me that you so easily accept such a one sided account form someone that most of you don’t have years of experience of knowing the character of that person. I am sorry that she was a victim of sexual abuse. But that doesn’t allow her a free card to slander a man whose reputation is proven both in the business world and in our church with 40 years of faithful service.
Piglet says:
I'm not taking the word of SOTL. I was there.
Are you behind the doors with the decision makers? Can you say that the investigation was not flawed? Can you defend Coombs' participation in covering up financial matters that should be open for all to see? I don't know his heart but I can see his actions.
JMO said:
I have enough faith in our lay leadership that the right decisions will be made for our members. I am neither a fool nor blind but have faith in men of God who have proven to me for many, many years that they have the best interest of Bellevue in their heart.
Piglet says:
I must say that I had this trust for 25 years myself. That was before they started climbing fences, not answering questions in Communications Committee meetings, sent God's money to to do the devil's work at an apostate church, denied concerned members a forum to discuss concerns, fired and run off some of the godliest men in our church,and broke the law......need I go on?
Do I look stupid? :0'
(Don't answer that. I asked my son that one time and then had to punish him for answering it.)
Mr Coombs,
I'm an MPP candidate at the Kennedy School of Government at Harvard. Yes, I am jobless while I study here.
Best,
Josh
Josh,
That was a very respectable response to a very disrespectful question (ie. accusation).
Good for you.
"It is not that they cannot handle the truth; they just cannot recognize the truth."
Kake's Korner #1:
When broad abstractions in verbiage are relied upon during debate, as in the alledged ownership of "truth," it is because they find the details too fragile to pick through.
In other words, just take their word for it.
trollcakes,
Could that also be interepreted as the "because I said so" argument?
:)
nass,
'bj' is posting without a visible profile.
I hope that you will delete his post.
Thanks.
Faith Jackson
Precisely Soc.
Let's make it easy and everyone canjust reply thusly and likey solely:
"Well, I never..."
"Well, I never..."
"Well, I never..."
"Well, I never...ever..."
ester wrote: "You don't see the situational ethics in that statement, do you?"
I find your challenging statement interesting in that you are quick to attack with selected Scripture but fail to live by selected Scripture. So I say "You don't see the situational ethics in that either, do you?" I am fairly well versed in the Scripture and I know that we are not to slander our brothers but I guess you just pick and use the ones that fit your needs. How's about that old 'new commandment' of love one another?
Well, I never...ever...EVER...
jmo,
we are not to slander our brothers
Yet, you just proclaimed that esther fails to live by Scripture? Do you think that might be construed by some as slander?
JMO said…It is not that they cannot handle the truth; they just cannot recognize the truth.
reality check says...I have read many of your posts and while I don’t agree with some, your manner and reason has been kind. I am responding specifically to you for this reason. I assure you that regarding just one incident…the Final Report of the Investigation Team I do recognize the truth. I have read from you before that they only needed to respond to the three areas related to the disposition of PW etc. However, they made statements that were not related to these three areas. The most obvious, on the face of it, is the statement that interviewing the key witness was not necessary (my paraphrase but accurate with regard to intent). What they should have said is that the key witness did not want to be interviewed without support and that he wanted to have involved parties available to ensure the Team received information that was truthful. Actually, he did not want to be “interviewed” at all but was willing to provide detailed and accurate information in order to assist the church and facilitate his own healing.
Had they allowed him this opportunity, it would have prevented any confusion or statements made on his behalf that were left hanging for misinterpretation. For instance, had they interviewed the victim (as he requested) prior to the first announcement from the pulpit, much of the harm and bad PR would have been prevented…fact. Secondly, the meeting would have helped to direct their investigation which would have prevented many of the “partial truths” from being in the report. Finally, had they included what the victim asked to be included it would have given the report much needed credibility. These are facts and truth and have been recognized contrary to what you posted above.
The problems associated with this issue are both content and process related. The process issue is of the greatest concern since the inclusion of his “testimony/information” (the reason for the investigation) was avoided. Thus, the process of the investigation was flawed from the very beginning. It is as though an investigation was being conducted without the most crucial evidence.
The content of the Final Report reveals the flawed process. As was stated in one communication to those responsible for the Report…facts can be presented without being factual.
We can argue from an emotional stance all we want. However, if one simply analyzes the information presented in the Report, assesses and processes the presentation of the information, it should be clear that the purpose of the Investigation was to turn over only the “stones” necessary to achieve the desired result. Finally, the same result could have been achieved without any “smoke and mirrors.” This begs the question…why go to all this trouble to accomplish an end result that was obvious from the beginning. Further, why do so in a manner that would generate unnecessary hurt to be experienced by those who were already hurting.
These comments do not even take into consideration biblical admonitions that would clearly direct an investigation to consider how to conduct such a process. It is just simple common sense void of schemas or masks.
Thank you (I sincerely mean it) for your consideration and specific response to this. I am not attempting to create any dissention. I would genuinely like to hear your comments.
From the Commercial Appeal:
The church launched an internal investigation, which concluded that the Williams case was an isolated incident and involved no other children. A recently completed investigation by the state Department of Children's Services reached a similar conclusion.
Rob Johnson, director of communications for DCS, said the two-month investigation was initiated after reports of the alleged abuse appeared in the press and online.
"We wanted to see if there was any evidence that children were at risk," Johnson said. "The Special Investigations Unit determined that any such allegations were unfounded."
DCS found no children at risk...hmmm...DCS reached a similar conclusion as Bellevue...hmmm
You guys going to call the DCS and ask about their cover-up like you did Bellevue's? I mean if they came to the same conclusion then either Bellevue's report stands or DCS followed with a cover-up as well. Let get real folks. BTW, why haven't you truth seekers pointed this out today?
Trollcakes said...
Nor will I spell out matters that, except for extreme gullibility or blind loyalty, are common knowledge. I don't know any of you, but I can see, and know personally, people that are deeply troubled, alienated, and some, intimidated by this cabal. Haven't seen anybody deeply hurt or intimidated on this blog, eh?
Or wait, they don't count if they don't identify themselves. It would would be a fools errand to lay out the names of ex-deacons, ex-church members, my friends and family, the unsuspecting children, outspoken members, members seeking an open forum, etc. you full well know about.
*******
This was your most insightful and accurate assessment to date. I appreciate you and so does the rest of this 'ragtag' bunch.
Lord Jesus, thank you for placing a man like Trollcakes amongst us for such a time as this and for Your own purpose. I know You desire him to love You as You love him. Your will be done. Amen.
Dee
realitycheck, I accept your position. I am surprised that someone could articulate such a logical and unbiased a conclusion as yours. I am used to dealing with emotional and character assassination taking precedent over level headed thought. Quite honestly I am at a loss for words. Thank you for your insight. And as one who does some consulting, it was more a PR blunder than many realize. Sometimes the truth gets lost in the presentation.
JMO said
You guys going to call the DCS and ask about their cover-up like you did Bellevue's? I mean if they came to the same conclusion then either Bellevue's report stands or DCS followed with a cover-up as well. Let get real folks. BTW, why haven't you truth seekers pointed this out today?
Piglet says:
I think the "cover-up" is what the victim might have said had he been interviewed. Why was this testimony not heard?
Gaines feigned ignorance about PW's job responsibilities, the law, etc. Wonder if all this was discussed when the victim first came forward and, if we knew that, we would ask why he did not take action when ignorance was no excuse (and still isn't BTW). Something is just not right about this and we may never know the real truth.
So, now it's the "all's well that ends well" argument. When it's someone else's sin, everything is black and white; when it's one of your own, you'll choke on moral relativism.
Reality check,
You, my friend, are a great thinker. Thank you for mulling this one over and presenting a very insightful and accurate report.
Lord Jesus, thank you for Reality Check and the mind You have given him for discerning the truth and delivering us this report. Amen.
Dee
Yeah, like where would any person get the idea of a coverup, after that crack internal investigation.
Dee,
Tashi Delek, sister.
Piglet, just wondering if I could get a direct response without emotions as to your thinking of the DCS investigation?
I think that realitycheck has set a high standard for well versed opinion verses just old fashioned rhetoric. Hopefully you can respond in kind. I would sincerely appreciate hearing from someone who was critical of Bellevue's report on their opinion to the DCS report.
Questions...
Did DCS interview the victim? If so, did they do so in the manner that the victim desired? If so, would that mean a secular agency is more willing to accomodate the requests of a church member than his own church? And if DCS did not interview the victim, can their conclusions have any more veracity than that of the church's investigative committee?
David Brown, do you know?
JMO,
Do you have a copy of the DCS report? It is difficult to compare the two without the ability to read their report and compare the differences.
Trollcakes,
Well, thank you, Trollcakes. I am honored.
Dee
Tim,
I don't mean this to sound disrespectful but you sure have done pretty well at making assessments without full knowledge of situations so far. I mean to read your petition that contains such one sided statements doesn't appear to come from a person seeking balance. So why are you asking me for the DCS report. What in the statement of the DCS person is at odds with your perceptions? I honestly would love to hear why you're seeking more information when you've survived so far with less.
JMO said
think that realitycheck has set a high standard for well versed opinion verses just old fashioned rhetoric. Hopefully you can respond in kind. I would sincerely appreciate hearing from someone who was critical of Bellevue's report on their opinion to the DCS report.
Piglet says:
Good question. After the initial report I think all of us were relieved that there was no evidence that any other victims existed. However, the jury will be out for a while because victims often don't report for many years. I am not surprised that the DCS investigation brought the same report.
My problem is with the one victim we DO know about and why his testimony was not permitted to be heard. If you read my 6:58 post you will see what my concerns are about any "cover-up".
Tim,
Also, may I ask how well you know David Coombs. I was speaking this evening with a neighbor friend and I mentioned your petition. This person is a deacon in our church. He was shocked that someone would do such a thing. He mentioned without any prompting from me that David is the most honest man he knows. I have spoken with many people who know David and they are all surprised at people's reaction to David coming on staff. All that know David well see him as the "backbone" needed on staff to resolve some of the issues we have. While those that know him see his as a welcomed edition those who know little of him see it differently. You'd think those of who who have witnessed his integrity and faithfulness over many years of service would be given the benefit of our knowledge.
I think a distinction should be made between the two investigations and their core priorities.
The DCI investigation was limited to child safety issues, and the PCIR focused upon the defamed minister's fate. What is whittled out of those two inquiries are all the matters poured over here.
Many are theological, church matters from which I'll recuse myself; I'm just saying don't let them tell you you've had your day in court, when it wasn't, in fact, your particular day in court.
You cannot limit an investigation down to a knifepoint, and expect it to be credible.
piglet, with due respect, a cover-up cannot be claimed. It was reported that the victim did not testify. But it sounds good to booster your side doesn't it. But I prefer to deal in facts and truths. Might be a good start for all.
hi again jmo,
You guys going to call the DCS and ask about their cover-up like you did Bellevue's? I mean if they came to the same conclusion then either Bellevue's report stands or DCS followed with a cover-up as well. Let get real folks. BTW, why haven't you truth seekers pointed this out today?
If you had read the blog today, you would notice that some of us DID discuss this today.
And it seems to me you might be missing the point of what some of us are concerned about: Regardless of the results of the investigation, the fact that THE victim was not interviewed for this investigation, even after repeated requests to do so, is a serious problem.
trollcakes, that is as much hogwash as the best spin masters. Please edify us with some truths.
Stephen Coombs, I am sorry but you have not helped your father's case by your attitude and your behavior. I wonder if you learned your people skills from your father. God help BBC.
No I don't necessarily think that you have to go to seminary to be ordained or to serve the church but I do believe that you have to be called of God not men. Maybe that is what is wrong with some of the names that were mentioned earlier such as Weatherwax,etc.
I just wish that everyone would wrap their hearts around the fact that INTEGRITY DOES MATTER. Don't let the naysayers divert your attention to what is most important. I don't understand why people are blinded by the administration but they are just like when President Clinton was in office. It is right there. There is no question. There is no gray area.
I will get off the soapbox now.
"You'd think those of who who have witnessed his integrity and faithfulness over many years of service would be given the benefit of our knowledge."
And those that find the ratcheted PCIR a chilling prologue to ordination would like the benefit of the doubt.
JMO,
I am not sure that I am following you on the one sided arguments.
1. David Coombs was quoted in the Commercial Appeal as complying with state law and fully open to have records reviewed. The letter that was sent out denied those records and he denied those records to Josh Manning. Both instances are documented and fact.
2. According to the Investigative Committee report the church had authorized David Coombs to "leave no stone unturned". Yet the investigation did not include testimony from the primary witness.
3. A lady of the church did approach David Coombs after the report and his treatment of this dear lady was short of what should be expected for anyone ordained to the ministry. This was verified on the spot that night and I personally was witness to this testimony.
4. A number are in agreement that this is not the time to proceed with an ordination. There have been some that have gone as far as to say that it should never happen. I have not gone to that extent because it could well be acceptable at a later date.
It is hard to be biased one way or another with the facts. They simply are what they are.
JMO said
(to Tim)
All that know David well see him as the "backbone" needed on staff to resolve some of the issues we have. While those that know him see his as a welcomed edition those who know little of him see it differently. You'd think those of who who have witnessed his integrity and faithfulness over many years of service would be given the benefit of our knowledge.
Piglet says:
A good way to promote healing would be to have this meeting that so many desperately want to get these issues settled. Being open by releasing documents (if there is, indeed, nothing incriminating) would be helpful. Instead he promotes the air of secrecy and stonewalling that we have had all along.
I believe he has been influenced by the men who brought him on board. Many think he is being used as a scapegoat to pull the attention away from Gaines.
All we see are the actions of this man since he has been on staff.
Tim did not say he should NEVER be ordained. He said that based on what we have seen thus far, and because of the fragile state our church is in, it should be postponed, preferably until all this is settled according to Matt. 18. But I guess the powers that be don't ever intend for that to happen. They are just riding this out and hoping it will go away.
We get more interest in IDC every day. The vast majority of our emails are overwhelmingly positive and people are rejoicing that there is an organized group that cares about our church when it is so evident that the leaders do NOT care.
JMO said
piglet, with due respect, a cover-up cannot be claimed. It was reported that the victim did not testify. But it sounds good to booster your side doesn't it. But I prefer to deal in facts and truths. Might be a good start for all.
Piglet says:
Excuse me, but the cat is out of the bag. He was not PERMITTED to testify. I don't believe David Brown was too happy about this report and says we haven't heard the last of it. I've talked to David. Have you?
trollcakes said
And those that find the ratcheted PCIR a chilling prologue to ordination would like the benefit of the doubt.
Piglet says:
What?
"trollcakes, that is as much hogwash as the best spin masters. Please edify us with some truths."
"That" is what? All is hogwash or which part, oh sage of generalized, all-over, truth. I didn't stutter, friend, and attitude is short and sweet, but debate usually includes qualifiers.
But I'll just imagine you're a general, surgeon or airline pilot, and take your word for it.
piglet, you are still avoiding the question but I can understand why. As I've quoted Dr. Rogers before..."the Truth is always going to be the Truth no matter what you or I think about it". I was just wondering how you reconciled the DCS report but obviously you care not to answer directly. Seems that people outside our church has trouble with communicating as well. But my point is made without your response.
trollcakes
Nevermind. I must have missed your earlier post. I get it. :)
Just my opinion asked...
"BTW, why haven't you truth seekers pointed this out today?"
********
JMO, don't you know that we are just that nice and were saving that for you to do. BTW, you just failed your test, but the good news is--you will be asked to take it again.
Lord Jesus, thank you for Just My Opinion and his opinions. We love You and praise You, Precious Father. Amen.
JESUS IS LORD! HALLELUJAH!
Dee
JMO said
piglet, you are still avoiding the question but I can understand why. As I've quoted Dr. Rogers before..."the Truth is always going to be the Truth no matter what you or I think about it". I was just wondering how you reconciled the DCS report but obviously you care not to answer directly. Seems that people outside our church has trouble with communicating as well. But my point is made without your response.
Piglet says:
What? I'm not avoiding anything. At 7:54 I said:
"Good question. After the initial report I think all of us were relieved that there was no evidence that any other victims existed. However, the jury will be out for a while because victims often don't report for many years. I am not surprised that the DCS investigation brought the same report."
Maybe you should tell me what you WANT me to say about the DCS report because I'm lost....:(
We have not seen the DCS report.
We will not see the DCS report.
How can we compare the two, when we can only see one?
OKAY! Somebody tell me. Do I avoid hard questions????
(Piglet, frustrated because this was not a hard question) :o'
Tim,
My best friend is a deacon, and he has signed your petition - WAY TO GO TIM!!!!!!!!
Piglet,
Did I get lost in translation--at length, the ordination follows on the heels of the Personnel Commitees' report, under suspicion after it was revealed that the priciple victim was not interviewed.
What I meant is that, seeing this, the ordination seems a little rushed, like there's some kind alteration to the chess board.
Trollcakes
I went back and read you 8:04 post and then posted at 8:23 that I DID get it after all..
But thanks for your explaination. I enjoyed reading it. :D
JMO,
Hey, I don't think Piglet is avoiding the question as much as she is avoiding you, you big bundle of love you. Koochee, koochee, koo!
Piglet,
Ja, I'm sloooow as pancake syrup.
Trollcakes said...
What I meant is that, seeing this, the ordination seems a little rushed, like there's some kind alteration to the chess board.
**********
Strange you used the chess board analogy. I was just thinking the same thing.
Okay, now. I'm going to break down and ask what "Tashi Delek" means. Be truthful, please. My e-mail address is visible in my profile if the answer is too bad.
I just went back to find the above post of yours, and I was really laughing at some of your funny little quips tonight. Are you feeling especially joyful? Yeah, I knew it. :)
Dee
esther,
I'm sure it will be fine, unless of course you use sugar in your earl grey... then it might get a bit sticky.
Splenda and lemon..straight up.
You have chosen wisely.
Dee,
Tashi Delek is a traditional tibetan greeting, "may everything be well" or "auspicious greetings."
I'm going out for pool--I am giddy.
Now I have Earl Grey all over my keyboard.
And just what does Earl look like?
ester wrote: "I know what you are doing JMO. You are getting everyone sucked into the details for your spin. You can explain it all away! The truth is in there...in greys...somewhere...and you are the one to show it. If we, the unruly peasants, would just be as measured, calm and professional as you are. (sigh)"
ester, ester, ester...yes those pesky details called facts just get in the way of suppositions.
No I don't work for the DNC, yes I am paid well for what I do and work nights keeping up (in between my postings). I love sarcasm more than most, you unruly peasant you. Now I've got to get back to writing some calm and professional reports to my client's. And to think that people are willing to pay for my thoughts! What a great country we live in...see I can do that sarcasm thing as well.
JMO,
I have been reading here for quite awhile..even back when before there was this blog and only the savingbellevue website. I just want to thank you for your courage, for your reasoned, calm, TRUTH-CENTERED, and rational approach and postings here. You had to know that there are certain here who would come at you with incisors bared and claws extended.
You have brought a much needed civility to the discussion. I have seen the attacks that have ensued as a result of disagreement here and you have remained steadfast (sarcasm notwithstanding).
Now that I have acknowledged that, I am sure I will be attacked also as others such as yourself, Davids, and others have been because of the lack of lock-step agreement of tactics.
By the way, I disagree with you on your position regarding DC, but I have to say, that much as has been said about sCoombs was admonished, there are some on here that do much damage to their cause by their strident, screeching (adding scripture doesn't ameliorate that).
speaking of causes.... (I am not referring to anyone in particular, just a reminder)
"...there is a zeal that is divisive, destructive, and deadly. It divides homes and churches. This misguided zeal finds an error and perpetuates it, or a principle and takes it to an extreme. Principles are like tools: you can use a hammer to build a house, or you can beat someone to death with it. Anything taken to an extreme can become a bad thing. And the cause of Christ has been deeply hurt by extremists with their misguided zeal"
esther,
I'd like to respectfully request that you delete your 8:30 p.m. post to my sister Faith.
She has suffered more than you know. Although she has forgiven, she quite naturally gets emotional, especially when she is harrassed by a cruel voice from the past.
Please do us a favor and remove the post.
Thank you,
Hope
aragon, thanks but I am curious about your disagreement with me on DC. I would be the first to acknowledge that David hasn't the most out going personality but he is surprisingly quick witted with the best dry humor I've heard. He wouldn't be my choice for a fishing trip but if I were going into battle I line up behind him. His aloofness can be disarming but he does have a fun side, it's a very thin side though. But his integrity and honesty has been proven through the years I've known him.
Tim,
I would recommend deleting petition signer #174.
RECOMMENDED READ:
"Why I left Contemporary Music"
Author: Dan Lucarini
Publisher: Evangelical Press
This excellent book is no longer carried at BBC bookstore, but they will order it.
If you read this book, many things will beome clear and you will be able to connect the dots.
Lurking for the past two days has been disheartening.
be patient
I don't think requesting a business meeting to settle important issues is destructive zeal.
The refusal of the church leaders to hear these issues has only increased the problems we started with. I bet Gaines is kicking himself for not having that meeting with Mark Sharpe. And all his buddies probably want to kick him too.
They've caused more damage to themselves by trying to quiet everyone than they would have if they had just allowed a hearing.
and #170
Faith and/or Hope, Could you email me, please? My address is on my profile. Thanks.
http://christianresearchnetwork.com/?p=545
Christa, David Brown and the team made it on Christian Research Net.
Lily: I just bought that book! I'm sorry you are disheartened. :(
1 Corinthians 15:58 Therefore, my beloved brethren, be ye stedfast, unmoveable, always abounding in the work of the Lord, forasmuch as ye know that your labour is not in vain in the Lord.
piglet,
I have no problem with wanting a business meeting, I have said that from the beginning- I think we have a great opportunity to review the way the church is run, our bylaws, etc. But we are never going to get there unless BOTH sides learn to play nice with each other first and can come at this without name calling and insulting each other. We can't fix what "should" have been done and there is no reason to keep coming back to that. All we can do now is move forward, and I think that the hope of a real and respectful business meeting gets dimmer and dimmer with each petition and hateful word said on this blog....
Why has "hateful" become the catch word whenever people disagree? Can't they disagree without it being termed hateful? Disagreements can be just that: disagreements. Just because people disagree doesn't mean they hate.
Esther, I am sorry for the incorrect spelling...pesky detail that spelling.
I Thes 5:12-13 (how's this work for you?)
I can go back and forth with Scripture as well ... I just don't think that the Lord had intended His Words to be volleyed about.
Esther, don't think that it escapes me that you don't directly respond to my questions. I pray that your mind be as open as your Bible. Limited information provides limited knowledge.
To All...
I am sorry to have to say this, but it seems to me that those who live in glass houses should not throw stones. If you have some sort of mental anguish going on in your life, you should not knowingly put yourself into this arena and then cry about it when someone unknowingly touches your soft spot. People who post on here don't know your history. If you have a scary past history, maybe you should avoid this blog like the plague. We don't know WHO we are speaking to when we are on here. You could say you are James Earl Jones and in reality be Mighty Mouse. If you can't take the heat, then stay out of the kitchen.
Oh, yes, but if you have a scary past history that you have overcome and you can ride the bumpy road this blog sometimes presents, then by all means "Welcome".
I was almost murdered when I was 23 years old by what is now my ex-husband. I am not afraid of words, though, or anything else I can think of at this moment. Please, let's be considerate of others who have just come here to hash it out, talk it over, solve it, ask questions, compare notes--whatever it is we hope to accomplish. You can yell at me if you want, but I really think this needs to be said.
Thank you, Lord Jesus for what you have done in my life to heal me, love me and to save me. Amen.
Dee
P.S. I did not mention my past because of any desire for sympathy, empathy, or drama. Furthermore, it is as far from me as the east is to the west. I do not want to dwell on the past. Life today is wonderful because I am a new creature and all the old stuff is healed. Hallelujah! Jesus is Lord.
concernedsbcer,
Why "hateful?"
I guess we didn't have enough drama...
:o/
Esther, at least they have answers...still waiting for yours.
Let me ask you this in response to I Cor 5....when does a man receive forgiveness and what part does grace play. While pondering think about King David, a man after God's own heart..adultery, murder, cover-up...hmmm, forgiven with writings published in the Bible...maybe the grace that saved a sinner like me is pretty complete. Of course my Lord and Savior paid a high price for my sins...covered yours and PW as well. Yes, I understand consequences and PW will live his life dealing with those but he has been forgiven for his sins.
I guess I should have said "hateful or personal"
Here is some of the kindness from this thread:
"hard-nosed grouch or a bull-headed blowhard."
"just an indictment on YOUR lack of discernment and Biblical knowledge."
"humph-harrumphers direct the snide, acid-washed sanctimony at real crimes, coverups and doublespeak authored by their beloved leadership."
"If that man is a godly man then I am Madonna."
"The letter was dripping with sneering accusations, arrogance, condescention and hate."
"Most bullies are cowards. What's in your pulpit?"
"Learn this arrogance from Daddy?"
Bepatient said...
" But we are never going to get there unless BOTH sides learn to play nice with each other first and can come at this without name calling and insulting each other"
*******
Seriously, do you happen to remember how this all began? Think about the things that were said to the innocent member, Mr. Kelly, who was called down for saying "amen" too many times for Doctor Gaines to be able to tolerate. And what about "Hezbollah"? Was that intended as a compliment? How about "You are no longer a deacon" said to Mark Sharpe because he wanted to ask FACE-TO-FACE (remember that little detail? Before this BLOG was created...hmmm) about what had happened to Mr. Kelly.
Well, you know what, I really don't care if you remember or not because there is a Saviour who knows all and sees all and it is HE who is being dragged through the mud by the apostasy in our church. No, HE doesn't need me to stand up for Him because He could blast the whole thing to the ground with not a speck of dust left IF HE SO DESIRED. But is He that kind of Lord? No. He is merciful and loving, BUT He is also a Righteous God and a Just God. He is giving the men who are supposed to be leading our church in truth and light and righteousness--but are not--a little time to confess and repent and obey His Holy Word. That is exactly why we are going through this right now. HE is going to clean house, and you can write that on the wall.
JESUS IS LORD! HALLELUJAH!
Dee
Esther said:
"Interpretation: Don't ask any questions they don't like. "
Bepatient said"
I would prefer you would read my posts in context... it has nothing to do with events or questions, it is about the fact that there was not business meeting and that can't be changed.
2006h,
you can keep on telling me all the awful things that have allegedly been said by the administrators, but it won't excuse anything inappropriate that is said by those that oppose their leadership.
Bepatient said (out of context)...
Here is some of the kindness from this thread:
"hard-nosed grouch or a bull-headed blowhard."
"just an indictment on YOUR lack of discernment and Biblical knowledge."
"humph-harrumphers direct the snide, acid-washed sanctimony at real crimes, coverups and doublespeak authored by their beloved leadership."
"If that man is a godly man then I am Madonna."
"The letter was dripping with sneering accusations, arrogance, condescention and hate."
"Most bullies are cowards. What's in your pulpit?"
"Learn this arrogance from Daddy?"
*****
Then Bepatient said...
"I would prefer you would read my posts in context... it has nothing to do with events or questions, it is about the fact that there was not business meeting and that can't be changed."
11:04 PM, February 22, 2007
*******
Bepatient,
How soon we forget. These posts were made five minutes apart.
Dee
Esther,
You simply lash out and condemn everyone who does not agree with you and then hide behind scripture. It is in no way Christ-like to act like that. If everyone would simply calm down for a few minutes I think we could all have some great discussions and make some real progress. We're not enemies! We just disagree. I'm from the school of thought that God gave us brains to use, not to neglect by simply hiding behind Bible verses. He gave us those verses so that we could think on them and their meaning. Isaiah 1:18 begins "Come now, and let us reason together".
The sad truth is, if any person who was not informed about the issues at Bellevue was to see your posts, they would immediately side with Steve Gaines. I am one of the most anti-Steve Gaines people out there, but your attitude comes across as very condescending to me. If is NEVER your place to play "Holy Spirit" in someone's life. If they say something and realize they shouldn't have said it (Hope) then let them deal with it and not jump on them judging them (Luke 6:37 - "Do not judge, and you will not be judged. Do not condemn, and you will not be condemned. Forgive, and you will be forgiven"). (DISCLAIMER: I am aware that verse is often misrepresented but in this case it applies. If means that you will be judged with the same standard as you choose to judge others with). You need to PLEASE learn to keep your mouth shut, you are doing SO MUCH more harm than good. Every time you speak, Gaines picks up 5 supporters.
In closing, I will repost a quote earlier from Dr. Rogers that I believe applies in this situation...
"...there is a zeal that is divisive, destructive, and deadly. It divides homes and churches. This misguided zeal finds an error and perpetuates it, or a principle and takes it to an extreme. Principles are like tools: you can use a hammer to build a house, or you can beat someone to death with it. Anything taken to an extreme can become a bad thing. And the cause of Christ has been deeply hurt by extremists with their misguided zeal."
Tell me how any of those posts are actually kind or have a totally different meaning when you put them back in context?
Esther referred to my post as if I was talking about something completely different than I was. When you put mine back in context it means something different.
I don't really need her to interpret anything for me, I am perfectly capable of speaking for myself.
Also, I was able to talk to two administrators at the gym today about their take on the situation and then got a chance to have a very productive talk with Jamie Parker and then some others in the music office and got their viewpoints on things. Next week I plan on sitting down and talking to David Coombs about some other issues. In my opinion, people will put much more weight in what you say when you are whispering in their ear, rather than screaming in their face. Which begs the question, how much has the vicious assaults on EACH OTHER really accomplished?
Bepatient said...
"you can keep on telling me all the awful things that have allegedly been said by the administrators, but it won't excuse anything inappropriate that is said by those that oppose their leadership."
*******
"...all the awful things that have allegedly been said" are not all just "allegedly...said". Many are proven and admitted to now, as are many of the wrongful "acts" that have previously been "alleged" but are now proven or confessed.
Were you not aware of these facts?
As for any unexcused or inappropriate statements I have made against the "leadership", the Word of God has the answer to that one for me. I answer to the Lord Jesus--not man. He will convict me if I am wrong, and I will ask His forgiveness, AND He will give it. HALLELUJAH!
JESUS IS LORD!
Dee
"I answer to the Lord Jesus--not man. He will convict me if I am wrong, and I will ask His forgiveness, AND He will give it."
Why doesn't this apply to SG, etc?
"humph-harrumphers direct the snide, acid-washed sanctimony at real crimes, coverups and doublespeak authored by their beloved leadership."
I authored this, or this is a fragment; it does not faithfully represent what I said. You obviously wished to isolate the juicy part, and likewise lived up to the designation.
Congratulations. You've been hoisted upon your own petard.
Has anyone heard an apology for the apparent lie told to the Commercial Appeal by the new Administrative Pastor of Bellevue. In the paper he said that those requesting information were not denied, but on tape he clearly said: "No, no, no, no."
There are many more than the two witnesses required to bring this charge.
Whoever lays hands on him before he deals with BOTH man and God regarding this matter will appear to be approving him with this and other baggage in tow.
Whoever lays hands on him cannot be seen as a representative of a unified body of believers that is approving of this act.
All of the members of the "Ordination Council" need to understand that their act of laying on hands will further divide Bellevue at this point.
Stop. Pray. Think. Table this for now. Deal with the concerns from the congregation--no matter how painful.
Once Bellevue was an example of what a church should be... In its current condition, it is fast becoming an example to avoid.
Repentance, cleansing, and reform are absolutely necessary.
imo
cakes, I apologize if I misrepresented it, but I really don't see how I did. Please explain to me your real meaning because I must not have understood it?
Is humph-harrumphers really a loving term and I am just misunderstanding?
Also, the very fact that there is a "juicy" part to extract proves my point quite nicely.
Has anyone else seen the sermon notes for Feb. 25 on Bellevue.org?
It was an ordination sermon. The title was Serving God (I think). I could be wrong but it WAS up earler and now it is gone. It has been taken off so that all you see is the Feb. 18 sermon.
Does anyone know what happened?
Bepatient said...
"Tell me how any of those posts are actually kind or have a totally different meaning when you put them back in context?"
*******
This was my post at 2;31 PM on February 20, 2007. One of the statements you took out of context was mine, and it was not calling anyone a name. I even thought it was pretty light-hearted. You quoted only "hard-nosed grouch or a bull-headed blowhard."
Below was my post in its entirety:
Why have we had so many "ministers" serving on staff who could not preach a sermon if they had to? If we are going to have business men on staff instead of true pastors who have studied and prepared to be preachers, then why don't we be forthright and call them that instead of "Associate Pastor", "Executive Senior Pastor", etc.? I think it's deceptive and improper, and it certainly gives the wrong mental image. "Ordaining" somebody doesn't change somebody into a pastor. No wonder people get upset when the Associate Pastor or Executive Associate Pastor don't know how to handle certain situations in a kind, loving, and Christian manner. These guys are not pastors! It's pretty shocking when the "pastor" turns out to be a hard-nosed grouch or a bull-headed blowhard. Now, I'm not pointing any fingers at any particular person, but if the shoe fits--wear it. My main point, though, is WHY? There are a lot of fellows out there taking the time to study the Word of God at MABTS--just right across the street from BBC--and they probably can't even find a church to minister in when they get done; while on the other hand, we've got Good Buddy Bob (not intended to be a real name) over there who needs a JOB because he doesn't like the insurance business anymore or the company sold out or closed down so we just give them a position because we think they're nice. I believe in being charitable; but, brothers and sisters, we have a higher calling and one that carries a life-or-death responsibility with it. This is serious--more serious than any job on earth I can think of. Picking out favorites or somebody's son or best friend and making them a pastor by ordaining them is not being responsible. One must be a good steward as the pastor-picker, too. Being a pea-picker and a pastor-picker are two way different jobs. However, I'm not saying either that a person should be disqualified for being a friend, a son, or your personal pea-picker--just that it should not be the only reason for being hired at a church as a pastor. I also don't think sending them to seminary AFTER we let them have a position as a pastor should be acceptable either. In my mind that's cheating. Even though God allowed Enoch and Elijah to enter heaven without seeing death here on earth, well, HE is GOD. WE are not so endowed to see a man's heart. We need to stop this practice at Bellevue. I don't know what questions, if any, that the search committee asked Steve Gaines or anybody else (if there was anybody else); but next time I think I would like to be on that committee and do the asking part--not because I'm so good--but because then I'll know it got done. I can pray, too. (In fact I have already gotten an answer to prayer about who the next pastor should be and I don't even know him--not yet, anyway.) I would also ask a lot of questions of the sheep of His old flock/flocks about how he treated them and other important things(good background checks). If the one who was brought to you turned out to be incapable or negligent or less than forthright with us or just plain ole bad, then he would be gone, gone, gone. I have another good idea, too. I'll get to it later.
*******
The WORDS you excerpted were only a few words--not even a sentence. Do you think that is sufficient evidence to prove a point in an accurate manner? I am sure there are those who don't see things the same way as I do who would say my whole post was full of hate; but in truth, it was not. It wasn't even intended to be that way. It was full of my own personal ideas for ways to avoid mistakes of the past, and it was meant to just be interesting enough to hold attention long enough to get my points made.
Bepatient, when you reread this, will you admit it if you were wrong in including this tidbit that you originally posted and sarcastically stated, "Here is some of the kindness from this thread:".
Dee
I would also like to add before I head to off to bed...
Perhaps instead of just trying to discredit me, why not just try admitting that there are a lot of unkind things that have been said around here and working to help fix the problem? That is kinda like just going ahead with that business meeting instead of refusing and hoping the one who points out the need for it gets frustrated and goes away...
be patient said
"I answer to the Lord Jesus--not man. He will convict me if I am wrong, and I will ask His forgiveness, AND He will give it."
Why doesn't this apply to SG, etc?
Piglet says:
Forgiveness again? That is not the issue here.
By the way, our entire family forgave Steve Gaines after his first apology session only to get slapped in the face in Union City afterward.
We were really willing to "give the poor guy a break". We had a "wait and see" attitude.
Well, we SAW alright. It was downhill from there.
He needs to repent and TURN from his sinful ways. He is continuing on a destructive path and is taking the church with him.
Forgiveness does not equal stupidity. I can forgive him but I still want godly leaders I can look UP to, not some I have to keep making excuses for.
Good grief. :/
Bepatient asked...
"Why doesn't this apply to SG, etc?"
11:48 PM, February 22, 2007
*********
You will have to ask SG, etc, what their personal beliefs are. I can only speak for myself.
Dee
Dee,
To me those are very pointed terms when just before them you reference the "Associate Pastor or Executive Associate Pastor ". Perhaps you can admit that you could have made the same point without putting that in there?
Perhaps it would be best to stay on the side of not giving the appearance of evil....
I am simply trying to point out this (I promise I am going to bed after this)-- if you were DC, or his son, or anyone else close to him do you not see how that would be viewed? And if these are the people we are trying to encourage into changed behavior, I don't see how this is the best choice of words?
Bepatient,
We don't even have a person entitled as "Executive Associate Pastor". Don't you understand? It was about giving people titles like "pastor" when they are not preachers of the Word of God, but are serving for a business purpose. My point there was that these business "pastors" are not schooled in the gentler side of pastoring and might answer someone in a harsher, more offensive way simply because that's just who they have been for most of their life--a business world person.
I think you don't want to see because you don't want to admit all the misrepresentations YOU have made here tonight.
Good night (offline)
FINALLY! A NEW THREAD HAS BEEN CREATED! PLEASE MOVE UP.
Thank you,
NBBCOF
I have been reading and am so dismayed with how the 'leadership' in your church has conducted themselves.
I went and read the timeline and I think that another matter that should brought out is that in July 2006 the confession by PW was made. His 17 yrs of covering the fact was brushed aside as 'under the blood' and the following month, August 2006 he was given a raise.
Maybe if the leadership still refuses to meet with you in a church business meeting, someone, many, should stand up after the invitation is over and address the concerns from the floor.
mrs said
I went and read the timeline and I think that another matter that should brought out is that in July 2006 the confession by PW was made. His 17 yrs of covering the fact was brushed aside as 'under the blood' and the following month, August 2006 he was given a raise.
Piglet says:
If anyone has an eventto be addedto thetimelin,please send an email to info@integritydoescount.com and wewill update as necessary.
Thanks!!!
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