What do you think are the top 3 issues facing Bellevue Baptist Church today? Give your reasons.
Many of these issues apply to the church at large as well. This book, In the Name of Purpose: Sacrificing Truth on the Altar of Unity, by Tamara Hartzell, addresses some of the problems affecting the church today. It's a free eBook available on the "Book Contents" page.
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Acts 20:28-30 ESV
"Pay careful attention to yourselves and to all the flock, in which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers, to care for the church of God, which he obtained with his own blood.I know that after my departure fierce wolves will come in among you, not sparing the flock; and from among your own selves will arise men speaking twisted things, to draw away the disciples after them."
Hum...We are just wrong! We are wrong in our self-righteous worshipping, in our "worship" of worship, in our "come Holy Spirit"...make this an emotional hour, so we'll feel justified in our arrogant ways. Let's have emotional alter calls, so we'll feel something and believe you are here with us. Let's botch up God's word, make a mockery of what we learned in our youth. Let's invite the locusts in, and ignore righteous heritage. Let's say good riddance to all those so uncomfortable that they have to leave. Let's help them leave by saying "you are the wheat that needs to be sifted" "if you can't worship here, find a place where you can worship". Let's destroy the past, so it is forgotten along with the meanings from scripture that we were taught along the way.
1) Lust for power and money by leadership.
2) Lack of bylaws and procedures to remove them.
3) Lack of discerning members who care.
May change my mind. Still thinking.
Proverbs 29:2
When the righteous are in authority, the people rejoice; but when the wicked beareth rule, the people mourn.
John 10:11-13 ESV
I am the good shepherd. The good shepherd lays down his life for the sheep. He who is a hired hand and not a shepherd, who does not own the sheep, sees the wolf coming and leaves the sheep and flees, and the wolf snatches them and scatters them. He flees because he is a hired hand and cares nothing for the sheep.
#3 No fear - Jeremiah 23
1. Sin
2. Sin
3. Sin
(Did they have to be three different problems?)
Isaiah 56:11
The dogs have a mighty appetite; they never have enough. But they are shepherds who have no understanding; they have all turned to their own way, each to his own gain, one and all.
Isaiah 2:11-12, 22
11 The eyes of the arrogant man will be humbled and the pride of men brought low; the LORD alone will be exalted in that day.
12 The LORD Almighty has a day in store for all the proud and lofty,
for all that is exalted (and they will be humbled),
22 Stop trusting in man, who has but a breath in his nostrils. Of what account is he?
Soc, Isaiah 2:22 has become one of my guidepost verses! Thanks for posting it.
Also, Ezekial 34 is scary stuff for Shepherds. Go read and see what God had to say to the Shepherds of Israel.
The Spirit is the author and creator of unity, not drawn to it. The Spirit moves as He pleases...He is sovereign..He draws men and women, He is not drawn to them. I find it a dangerous statement to assume anyone who disagrees with the direction of the church is lost, or is not Spirit-filled. Unity is no guarantee of the Spirit's work or presence...there's a false unity which God is not the author of. Unity is not sameness...unity of a majority does not necessarily mean unity in the Spirit. Be discerning beloved.
Hum...We are just wrong! We are wrong in our self-righteous worshipping, in our worship of worship, in our "Come Holy Spirit"...make this an emotional hour, so we'll feel justified in our arrogant ways. Let's have emotional alter calls, so we'll feel something and believe you are here with us. Let's botch up God's word, make a mockery of what we learned in our youth. Let's invite the locusts in, and ignore righteous heritage. Let's say good riddance to all those so uncomfortable that they have to leave. Let's help them leave by saying "You are the wheat that needs to be sifted." And, "If you can't worship here, find a place where you can worship.” Let's destroy the past, so it is forgotten, along with the meanings from scripture that we were taught along the way.
The top three issues in my opinion are a glaringly apparent, lack of God-fearing behavior, lack of integrity, and lack of humility. If our leaders feared God, they would not use God’s Word recklessly and carelessly. They would work with transparency and humility before God, whom they fear, and man, whom they serve or shepherd.
After reading Piglet's, I am going to say that BBC lacks:
1. Fear of God
2. By-Laws and Governances
3. Discerning Members (Deacons) Who Care Enough to Do Something About It
James 4:1-10 (ESV)
What causes quarrels and what causes fights among you? Is it not this, that your passions are at war within you? You desire and do not have, so you murder. You covet and cannot obtain, so you fight and quarrel. You do not have, because you do not ask. You ask and do not receive, because you ask wrongly, to spend it on your passions. You adulterous people! Do you not know that friendship with the world is enmity with God? Therefore whoever wishes to be a friend of the world makes himself an enemy of God. Or do you suppose it is to no purpose that the Scripture says, "He yearns jealously over the spirit that he has made to dwell in us"? But he gives more grace. Therefore it says, "God opposes the proud, but gives grace to the humble." Submit yourselves therefore to God. Resist the devil, and he will flee from you. Draw near to God, and he will draw near to you. Cleanse your hands, you sinners, and purify your hearts, you double-minded. Be wretched and mourn and weep. Let your laughter be turned to mourning and your joy to gloom. Humble yourselves before the Lord, and he will exalt you.
Please speak truth if you know it:
What business contact is worth not coming forword with information that would help shed light on truth?
What salary is worth hiding the sin of others?
Will you be able to enjoy your retirement knowing what it cost you and you church family?
Men and Women of Faith...come forward and trust God with your future and the future of His ministries.
May God bless IDC...
1 John 2:16 gives 3 things
For everything in the world—the cravings of sinful man, the lust of his eyes and the boasting of what he has and does—comes not from the Father but from the world.
AOG is right... just ask the Unitarians!
(When the Spirit comes....)
John 14:26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.
__________________________________
(things such as):
Matthew 5:3 ¶ Blessed are the poor in spirit: for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.
Matthew 5:7 Blessed are the merciful: for they shall obtain mercy.
Matthew 5:8 Blessed are the pure in heart: for they shall see God.
Matthew 5:19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.
Matthew 6:14 For if ye forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you:
15 But if ye forgive not men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses.
Matthew 6:19 ¶ Lay not up for yourselves treasures upon earth, where moth and rust doth corrupt, and where thieves break through and steal:
20 But lay up for yourselves treasures in heaven, where neither moth nor rust doth corrupt, and where thieves do not break through nor steal:
21 For where your treasure is, there will your heart be also.
Matthew 11:29 Take my yoke upon you, and learn of me; for I am meek and lowly in heart: and ye shall find rest unto your souls.
Matthew 12:33 Either make the tree good, and his fruit good; or else make the tree corrupt, and his fruit corrupt: for the tree is known by his fruit.
34 O generation of vipers, how can ye, being evil, speak good things? for out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaketh.
35 A good man out of the good treasure of the heart bringeth forth good things: and an evil man out of the evil treasure bringeth forth evil things.
36 But I say unto you, That every idle word that men shall speak, they shall give account thereof in the day of judgment.
37 For by thy words thou shalt be justified, and by thy words thou shalt be condemned.
Matthew 18:4 Whosoever therefore shall humble himself as this little child, the same is greatest in the kingdom of heaven.
Matthew 20:25 But Jesus called them unto him, and said, Ye know that the princes of the Gentiles exercise dominion over them, and they that are great exercise authority upon them.
26 But it shall not be so among you: but whosoever will be great among you, let him be your minister;
27 And whosoever will be chief among you, let him be your servant:
28 Even as the Son of man came not to be ministered unto, but to minister, and to give his life a ransom for many.
Matthew 23:12 And whosoever shall exalt himself shall be abased; and he that shall humble himself shall be exalted.
Mark 9:35 And he sat down, and called the twelve, and saith unto them, If any man desire to be first, the same shall be last of all, and servant of all.
Mark 11:25 And when ye stand praying, forgive, if ye have ought against any: that your Father also which is in heaven may forgive you your trespasses.
26 But if ye do not forgive, neither will your Father which is in heaven forgive your trespasses.
Mark 12:30 And thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind, and with all thy strength: this is the first commandment.
31 And the second is like, namely this, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. There is none other commandment greater than these.
Luke 6:27 ¶ But I say unto you which hear, Love your enemies, do good to them which hate you,
28 Bless them that curse you, and pray for them which despitefully use you.
29 And unto him that smiteth thee on the one cheek offer also the other; and him that taketh away thy cloke forbid not to take thy coat also.
30 Give to every man that asketh of thee; and of him that taketh away thy goods ask them not again.
31 And as ye would that men should do to you, do ye also to them likewise.
32 For if ye love them which love you, what thank have ye? for sinners also love those that love them.
33 And if ye do good to them which do good to you, what thank have ye? for sinners also do even the same.
Luke 16:10 He that is faithful in that which is least is faithful also in much: and he that is unjust in the least is unjust also in much.
Luke 16:13 No servant can serve two masters: for either he will hate the one, and love the other; or else he will hold to the one, and despise the other. Ye cannot serve God and mammon.
John 3:6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
John 3:20 For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved.
John 6:63 It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.
John 8:12 ¶ Then spake Jesus again unto them, saying, I am the light of the world: he that followeth me shall not walk in darkness, but shall have the light of life.
John 10:10 The thief cometh not, but for to steal, and to kill, and to destroy: I am come that they might have life, and that they might have it more abundantly.
11 I am the good shepherd: the good shepherd giveth his life for the sheep.
12 But he that is an hireling, and not the shepherd, whose own the sheep are not, seeth the wolf coming, and leaveth the sheep, and fleeth: and the wolf catcheth them, and scattereth the sheep.
13 The hireling fleeth, because he is an hireling, and careth not for the sheep.
John 12:25 He that loveth his life shall lose it; and he that hateth his life in this world shall keep it unto life eternal.
John 14:15 If ye love me, keep my commandments.
John 15:10 If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father’s commandments, and abide in his love
John 15:19 If ye were of the world, the world would love his own: but because ye are not of the world, but I have chosen you out of the world, therefore the world hateth you.
John 16:20 Verily, verily, I say unto you, That ye shall weep and lament, but the world shall rejoice: and ye shall be sorrowful, but your sorrow shall be turned into joy.
John 17:14 I have given them thy word; and the world hath hated them, because they are not of the world, even as I am not of the world.
15 I pray not that thou shouldest take them out of the world, but that thou shouldest keep them from the evil.
John 18:36 Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence.
37 Pilate therefore said unto him, Art thou a king then? Jesus answered, Thou sayest that I am a king. To this end was I born, and for this cause came I into the world, that I should bear witness unto the truth. Every one that is of the truth heareth my voice.
(just a (very) few of His words that ought to be called to our remembrance when His Spirit has truly come)
Friends, I heard these 'unity' sermons for years in many GCM churches. It took a long time for the Holy Spirit to teach me why this teaching was wrong. But you could tell there was no real unity in the Word. It was more of a 'conformity' of thinking and methods instead of a spiritual unity.
Most people think it means never disagreeing so they go along because the 'divisive' scriptures are thrown at them. So, in the end, unity as taught by GCM churches is really 'conformity'.
Aog is right. We cannot 'manufacture' unity by telling people to be unified. Unity comes from the Holy Spirit teaching us through the Word. It is a supernatural work and will never go against scripture.
We must pray for discernment and wisdom.
People of Israel, the LORD has shown you what is good. He has told you what he requires of you.
1. You must treat people fairly.
2. You must love others faithfully.
3. You must be very careful to live the way your God wants you to.
Micah 6:8
Question:
How many on here (and the previous threads) contacted your BBC friends to look at the IDC information?
I sent e-mails to all my friends that I figured needed a little prodding to even search out their website.
I just told them they might want to take a look at this website and then I typed the address. Do you think enough people are even educating themselves about the issues at hand?
I am just wondering two things? Have you passed the word around? and Do you think people are familiar with the evidence of the issues?
I have informed those that truly want to know. One must want to know the truth to find it.
amos,
If you're still there...I left a response to your last post on my blog this morning. Grace and Peace.
Dream.
Great question. I have actually printed many, many things from the web-site and shown proof, told things that I know for a fact. I have done everything I know to do, and yet, still have those who will just disregard what I am presenting. Talk about ready to throw in the towel. I'm to the point of telling them good luck with what you're doing...I'm moving on.
Byebelle,
I share your frustration; I am feeling the green light to move on. I haven't felt it before. But, now, with so many who feel so differently from us. The time is approaching. My family and I are just going through the motions at this point, finishing some areas of service, tying up loose ends.
What a shame!!
AOG,
Read it within the last hour...thanks, and was blessed, my friend. Grace and Blessings.
Amos
It has actually been a very freeing time for our family. It was hard, yet so easy to get out. Bellevue is like going to a different church anyway. I may be a dissenter, but I am a peaceful one.
Amos 3:3 Can two walk together, except they be agreed?
Byebelle,
So you and your family are worshipping elsewhere? and may be close to joining?
I really believed we would see this administration come to an end. I really believed people would turn the ship around, put it back on course, change the direction before we lost members, resources, and ministry.
I believed those out there worshipping other places would be able to come home as soon as our faithful men stood up to the bullies and stood for truth.
I am sure our scattered sheep would come home, if our men (deacons) had protected God's house and flock.
Luke 6:22-24 ESV
22"Blessed are you when people hate you and when they exclude you and revile you and spurn your name as evil, on account of the Son of Man! 23Rejoice in that day, and leap for joy, for behold, your reward is great in heaven; for so their fathers did to the prophets.
If we all leave, there will be very few, if any, faithful who are left. There are many that are drawn to the superficial sermons and worldly music that has become BBC. The congregation may build itself back up, which is what Steve Gaines is hoping for.
I believe that the Lord will move on our behalf, perhaps very soon. It always seems that when we get to the end of ourselves, He steps in.
2 Thessalonians 2:10-12
2 Thessalonians 2:9-12
The coming of the lawless one is by the activity of Satan with all power and false signs and wonders, and with all wicked deception for those who are perishing, because they refused to love the truth and so be saved. Therefore God sends them a strong delusion, so that they may believe what is false, in order that all may be condemned who did not believe the truth but had pleasure in unrighteousness.
JMO,
What Dr Gaines said about how disunity in light of Christian witness to the world, or unbelievers, is hogwash.
The non-christian see the manipulation of the PC investigation, which protects (can you imagine those findings derived from the actual victim?) the culpable leadership(and please don't mention the slap on the hand by Mr Coombs) and the swift annointing of its captain to (r)everend for what it is. Politics, period, and the umptenth double standard by the morality police and crow the loudest about "personal responsibility." Give me a break.
A survivor of childhood sexual abuse sees this as a tragedy and, if like me, a little jacked-up. Yes, you can keep your hollow religion--; is anyone really going to credibly cite the momentum belongs to the majority? Join hands, shuts your eyes and say nguh, nguh, nguh, nguh...
How many dark actions can you recall from history that transpired through the apathy, fear or denial of the masses? Most people just want to move on and not disrupt their lives; leaders aren't plucked from this ilk.
The message was not about ordination, rather unity, thus it was plainly a line in the sand (that and the cute childrens chior up front--don't traumatize the children! Ugh.) to anyone who'd dare dissent and make a scene. How utterly revolting for him to use the potium and stage lights (not to mention scripture) to launch an attack against decent people with legitimate concerns.
I threw up my chocolate cookie in my mouth a little just recalling the charade.
Truthseekers, I place my palms together over my heart, in tears, with thoughts of you tonight.
Cakes
I am praying that IDC will either have a churchwide meeting, which I believe was what they were planning if they had gotten the mailing list. I will pray that they go ahead and let the word be spread by mouth, email and this blog.
Psalms 20:6 ¶ Now I know that the LORD saves His anointed; He will answer him from His holy heaven With the saving strength of His right hand.
7 Some trust in chariots, and some in horses; But we will remember the name of the LORD our God.
8 They have bowed down and fallen; But we have risen and stand upright.
9 Save, LORD! May the King answer us when we call.
I will pray that those with information will step out on faith and speak. The Lord provides your needs - all of them - and He will give you the words to speak when it is time.
I totally agree. We could no longer sit in a church where just asking a question invoked rebuke. There are many other places where the word of God is preached, where people love each other and welcome others to join them.
msdreamwise said
I am just wondering two things? Have you passed the word around? and Do you think people are familiar with the evidence of the issues?
Piglet says:
I sent the website and info to atleast 35c ouples. I got one scathing response and one positive. The rest didn't respond. I'd like to believe they are studying the issues. But I'm afraid they may want to be blissfully ignorant. Time will tell.
For years now I have wondered why Bellevue wasn't more involved in planting new churches in the local area, rather than continuing to build itself larger. Nothing against large churches...just that new churches, in other locations, could reach folks that Bellevue could not. I always thought that Bellevue could easily sponsor at various times a core group of folks who were strong in the Lord could be sent out to another location, with the resources of BBC behind it, to start a church in another part of town and reach people with the gospel there. The number of people that signed the DC petition would make a great start for another church. (Bellevue itself started as a church plant with far fewere folks than that!)
I'm wondering if this isn't part of God's plan and the current situation is just part of how he uproots folks to plant them elsewhere. Or perhaps God wants people who have had the blessing of solid Bible teaching to go out into other existing churches and bless them through service there. I'm no prophet and claim no special wisdom or revelation; I just wonder.
I remember an old country Baptist preacher saying once that Baptist churches are a lot like alley cats ... there's a lot of noise and scratching and clawing, but in the end, you get more cats.
All that said, I would never discourage those who are confident God has led them to stay put, contend for the truth, and see BBC become more of what He wants it to be. I do, know, though, that we serve a God who can and does work wonderfully good things about of horrendously bad things, even evil things done by those who would do us harm. He has even brought good things out of my own wicked deeds...He can truly do anything!
You have officially been marginalized and the green light has been granted to alienate you from fellowship. Wow, sad (I couldn't resist).
I hate to start this line of questioning again, but is the word "compassion" in scripture? I'm betting no.
Romans 15:13
May the God of hope fill you with all joy and peace in believing, so that by the power of the Holy Spirit you may abound in hope.
JMO said in other thread...I felt justified on coming on this board because I thought there were individuals truly seeking the truth. But I now realize that what remains on this board is fleshly folks filled with bitterness and hate. There can be no room for the Spirit to reside when you've filled yourselves of yourselves rather than the Holy Spirit. Rather than taking the time to attack my words I only ask that you look inward and ask yourself, "is what I am doing of the Holy Spirit?"
realitycheck says in this thread...I felt, I thought, I now realize, I only ask…you operate from emotion…you are not thinking if you ignore facts that are inarguable…you ask what you should be doing. Does it grieve the Holy Spirit to not question that what has been said by leadership does not line up with facts? Your sermon on righteous indignation indicates that you have short-circuited an uncomfortable process…truth.
As I said to you in an earlier post, I don’t agree with the vitriol exhibited by many, but you never answered my questions posted earlier. The issue of the Final Report and both the process and content of the report, is just one example. JMO, it appears that while you may have been willing to entertain truth, you will not be defined by it.
Both sides of this struggle have not always handled themselves in an exemplary manner. Thank goodness the perception of neither side defines the reality of what has happened over the past 18 months. The good news is that in time truth will be discovered. To borrow from a popular television commercial… “what is in your wallet?”
Proverbs 4:14 ¶ Enter not into the path of the wicked, and go not in the way of evil men.
15 Avoid it, pass not by it, turn from it, and pass away.
16 For they sleep not, except they have done mischief; and their sleep is taken away, unless they cause some to fall.
Proverbs 11:14 ¶ Where no counsel is, the people fall: but in the multitude of counsellors there is safety.
Proverbs 16:4 The LORD hath made all things for himself: yea, even the wicked for the day of evil.
Proverbs 17:15 ¶ He that justifieth the wicked, and he that condemneth the just, even they both are abomination to the LORD.
Proverbs 19:27 ¶ Cease, my son, to hear the instruction that causeth to err from the words of knowledge.
Proverbs 24:24 He that saith unto the wicked, Thou art righteous; him shall the people curse, nations shall abhor him:
25 But to them that rebuke him shall be delight, and a good blessing shall come upon them.
Proverbs 28:4 ¶ They that forsake the law praise the wicked: but such as keep the law contend with them.
5 ¶ Evil men understand not judgment: but they that seek the LORD understand all things.
6 ¶ Better is the poor that walketh in his uprightness, than he that is perverse in his ways, though he be rich.
I've been pretty quiet lately. Praying that the Lord would move to resolve this situation. It appears that He isn't done bringing BBC back to the God fearing ways she once had. He had close to 400 signatures on the ordination petition. Each one of those people represent in my mind someone who has the discernment to see what is happening in BBC. That number will grow there is no doubt about it. In fact I'm sure it's grown by several hundred after today's self serving sermon. It pains me but there were probably many many people that finally were able to look into SG's face and hear him twist the Word of God for the first time today. They were finally able to comprehend the depths of his ability to manipulate the scripture to his own will. My family heard it happen many many months ago and could no longer sit under his leadership without looking for the hidden motives in his sermons. I think many will begin to have this problem now.
1. Accountability to GOD
2. Integrity towards GOD
3. Brokenness towards GOD
4. Humility towards GOD
5. Humbleness towards GOD
All of these things are severely lacking at BBC. Never mind that most of their issues affect the sheep. Get it right with GOD then the rest will flow naturally.
If you are in or around Midtown, some friends of mine go to All Saints where Strings & Things is located on Madison. It's small but you couldn't meet a sweeter bunch of Christians that live their faith.
But what do I know.
God always has a faithful remnant..always has..always will. He himself will preserve it. Remember Elijah?...he thought he was the only one left...but God had reserved for himself 3000 who had not bowed the knee to baal. He cannot fail.
cakes
Psalms 78:38 But he, being full of compassion, forgave their iniquity, and destroyed them not: yea, many a time turned he his anger away, and did not stir up all his wrath.
Psalms 86:15 But thou, O Lord, art a God full of compassion, and gracious, longsuffering, and plenteous in mercy and truth.
Psalms 111:4 He hath made his wonderful works to be remembered: the LORD is gracious and full of compassion.
Psalms 112:4 Unto the upright there ariseth light in the darkness: he is gracious, and full of compassion, and righteous.
Psalms 145:8 The LORD is gracious, and full of compassion; slow to anger, and of great mercy.
Matthew 9:36 But when he saw the multitudes, he was moved with compassion on them, because they fainted, and were scattered abroad, as sheep having no shepherd.
Matthew 14:14 And Jesus went forth, and saw a great multitude, and was moved with compassion toward them, and he healed their sick.
Matthew 18:33 Shouldest not thou also have had compassion on thy fellowservant, even as I had pity on thee?
Luke 15:20 And he arose, and came to his father. But when he was yet a great way off, his father saw him, and had compassion, and ran, and fell on his neck, and kissed him.
Romans 9:15 For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.
Hebrews 5:2 Who can have compassion on the ignorant, and on them that are out of the way; for that he himself also is compassed with infirmity.
1 Peter 3:8 Finally, be ye all of one mind, having compassion one of another, love as brethren, be pitiful, be courteous:
1 John 3:17 But whoso hath this world’s good, and seeth his brother have need, and shutteth up his bowels of compassion from him, how dwelleth the love of God in him?
Jude 1:22 And of some have compassion, making a difference:
I do agree about the possible new fellowship. I wonder about our legal grounds for part of the resources needed to build somewhere else and get out of their hair.
A Church Body Divorce Settlement...sorry I couldn't resist. It's getting late, and I am not getting anymore hopeful or positive, so I am going to bed. Good Night everyone!
Cakes, sounds like you know more than many of those who call themselves "in Unity". The Holy Spirit has ways of revealing Jesus (the TRUTH) to whomever the Father wishes.
Ok Amos,
Thank you. The Psalms is my most favorite book of the Bible.
I think I was attempting sarcasm.
:,
Romans 11:1 ¶ I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin.
2 God hath not cast away his people which he foreknew. Wot ye not what the scripture saith of Elias? how he maketh intercession to God against Israel, saying,
3 Lord, they have killed thy prophets, and digged down thine altars; and I am left alone, and they seek my life.
4 But what saith the answer of God unto him? I have reserved to myself seven thousand men, who have not bowed the knee to the image of Baal.
5 Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.
6 And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.
7 What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded
8 (According as it is written, God hath given them the spirit of slumber, eyes that they should not see, and ears that they should not hear;) unto this day.
scripture references to sarcasm = 0
oops...make that 7000 who had not bowed to baal..thanks amos ;)
dont mention it
Yeah, in mine neither--what about humor? Could use that tonight.
Proverbs 15:13 A merry heart maketh a cheerful countenance: but by sorrow of the heart the spirit is broken.
Proverbs 15:15 All the days of the afflicted are evil: but he that is of a merry heart hath a continual feast.
Proverbs 17:22 A merry heart doeth good like a medicine: but a broken spirit drieth the bones.
or
Psalms 2:4 He that sitteth in the heavens shall laugh: the Lord shall have them in derision.
Psalms 37:12 The wicked plotteth against the just, and gnasheth upon him with his teeth.
13 The Lord shall laugh at him: for he seeth that his day is coming.
Psalms 59:6 They return at evening: they make a noise like a dog, and go round about the city.
7 Behold, they belch out with their mouth: swords are in their lips: for who, say they, doth hear?
8 ¶ But thou, O LORD, shalt laugh at them; thou shalt have all the heathen in derision.
Amos said
Psalms 37:12 The wicked plotteth against the just, and gnasheth upon him with his teeth.
13 The Lord shall laugh at him: for he seeth that his day is coming.
Piglet says:
A good one for tonight, I think.
Acts 19:13 ¶ Then certain of the vagabond Jews, exorcists, took upon them to call over them which had evil spirits the name of the Lord Jesus, saying, We adjure you by Jesus whom Paul preacheth.
14 And there were seven sons of one Sceva, a Jew, and chief of the priests, which did so.
15 And the evil spirit answered and said, Jesus I know, and Paul I know; but who are ye?
16 And the man in whom the evil spirit was leaped on them, and overcame them, and prevailed against them, so that they fled out of that house naked and wounded.
(I've always smiled when I read this)
Hey, yeah! Not exactly jokes, though. But if a Merry heart is in scripture, then 3 stooges dvds are just the ticket.
Here's one that makes me smile...
Ecclesiastes 2:25
For who can eat, or who else can hasten hereunto, more than I?
Psalms 4:8 I will both lay me down in peace, and sleep: for thou, LORD, only makest me dwell in safety.
Proverbs 3:24 When thou liest down, thou shalt not be afraid: yea, thou shalt lie down, and thy sleep shall be sweet.
offline
g'nite amos...sleep the sleep of the righteous.
junk99,
I think I just found my new life verse.
Thank you.
>:oD
Jonah getting swallowed by a whale is pretty funny; probably not for him though. Imagine him trying to tell anyone about it--talk about a big fish story.
Another one that amuses me. Not the subject mattter, just the confusing use of "they" at the end...
2 Kings 19:35
And it came to pass that night, that the angel of the LORD went out, and smote in the camp of the Assyrians an hundred fourscore and five thousand: and when they arose early in the morning, behold, they were all dead corpses.
Dead corpses, eh? Well, I certainly hope so, since those living one tend to raid the refrigerator.
"when they arose early in the morning, behold, they were all dead corpses"
Ha, you are right! I sure never noticed that before...
Well, considering the sermon, I guess Martin Luther was wrong after all.
Doh!
trollcakes wrote:
"How many dark actions can you recall from history that transpired through the apathy, fear or denial of the masses? Most people
just want to move on and not disrupt their lives; leaders aren't plucked from this ilk."
So true. Evil triumphs when good men (and women) do nothing.
Goodnight dear NASS.
I am so sorry about how your church services went tonight! I woke up several times last night praying for the services today and tonight.
I know how heartwrenching a divide in your home church can be. I have been through a couple of them and it really does cause divides when you have to stand up for what is in scripture! Christians are supposed to be united in Christ, but we get so caught up in the "I wants", that Christ becomes the dividing line that can't be crossed.
When I read your posts tonight, I could not help but think of the following scriptures:
Luke 12:47 "The servant who knows what his master wants but is not ready, or who does not do what the master wants, will be beaten with many blows!
48 But the servant who does not know what his master wants and does things that should be punished will be beaten with few blows. From everyone who has been given much, much will be demanded. And from the one trusted with much, much more will be expected.
49 "I came to set fire to the world, and I wish it were already burning!
50 I have a baptismn to suffer through, and I feel very troubled until it is over.
51 Do you think I came to give peace to the earth? No, I tell you, I came to divide it.
52 From now on, a family with five people will be divided, three against two, and two against three.
53 They will be divided: father against son and son against father, mother against daughter and daughter against mother, mother-in-law against daughter-in-law and daughter-in-law against mother-in-law."
Sometimes as painful as it is to endure, we have to take that stand and suffer the broken relationships even within our chuch families.
I have been going through my own journey of having relationships split over principles and it takes time to heal, but I am reminded of the scripture that He binds up the brokenhearted and makes beauty come from ashes.
I hate to see this great chuch you belong to go through a split, but as another poster posted, God may be wanting to spread you out to new ministries to further the kingdom.
I think if I were in your places, I would seek to talk with the pastor, then with 2 witnesses make the attempt again and then I would make a show of walking out of a service and shake the dust from my shoes as testimony of being prevented from following the scriptures.
My prayers go with you all as you are all hurting!
Pardon me for jumping back in after being away for some time, but may I humbly ask a question? Some might call it rhetorical, but the more I dwell on it, the more I think it's a question worth an honest attempt at answering:
What are we trying to save?
I should clarify that when I say "we" I actually mean "you," since my family and I have recently found a new congregation with whom we can serve and worship and grow.
But the question stands: What are you trying to save? "Bellevue," most of you will answer in reply.
But what is "Bellevue"?
Is it a building?
An address, a piece of property?
A particular gathering of the body of Christ?
An icon, a legend, the flagship of the SBC?
Is it a preacher (past or present), the music ministry, the special events, the outreach ministries, or the staff?
Is it the place where you or your daughter or your father came to know Christ?
Is it the combination of all of these?
Is it a reputation?
I respectfully submit to you that "Bellevue" is all of these things, and not a one of them is worth saving.
Many, myself included, have in recent months complained that "our church has been hijacked." "These corrupt men in leadership have got to go." Etc etc. And these and similar statements may very well be true at their core. But they are ultimately unimportant. Because "Bellevue" — all the characteristics and traits mentioned above — is not the church.
You and I, along with all genuine believers, are the Church. The Body of Christ. And in this regard, it matters not what address we travel to on Sunday, or what corporate label we write in the "pay to" line of our tithe check, or even who our earthly shepherd is.
And it may very well be that the one thing we have desperately, prayerfully, diligently been trying to save is the one thing that God is trying to tear down, ultimately for our own spiritual refinement.
We worry that if all the genuine believers leave, "Bellevue" will be left a half-empty shell only to be re-filled with shallow, milquetoast, worldly Christians at best.
Do you think God fears any of this, or is He sovereign?
We loathe those who are in control of the enormous financial assets of "Bellevue" because of the way they wield that control, and yet we're haggling on and on so that if/when they're gone, "we'll" again be in control of those assets and will use them for His glory. But God does not need them. God does not need hundreds of acres, hundreds of millions of dollars in property, buildings and amenities. God does not need new by-laws or more congregational oversight. He needs our hearts and minds, totally yielded to Him. These temporal trappings — good or bad, useful or not — are rubbish to Him. Yes, even the buildings and crosses which we have constructed for Him, in His honour.
What are you trying to save?
I think it's a question worth answering.
It just may be that the one thing God needs the least is the one thing we so desperately cling to, because we think He needs it. Or because we think we need it.
He doesn't. And neither do we.
When we are willing to forsake all and cling only to Him, then and only then will we have the peace we seek.
Furthermore, I believe one primary reason "Bellevue" has not been more effectual in reaching our community and world for Christ, not to mention the lack of growth and discipleship in our own ranks, is that we see the church the same way the lost see it. Buildings, bank accounts, programs. We see our church, "Bellevue," as all of the elements and attributes mentioned above, rather than seeing it as the living, eternal Church, the Bride of Christ, wholly set apart from that which is material and temporal.
Oh, many of us have often referred to "Bellevue" as "belonging to God, not us." After all, we constructed it with His tithes, in His Name, for His glory. But what if He doesn't want it? The buildings, the name, the trappings?
What if He just wants us?
I'll leave you with these thoughts to ponder. Feel free to contact me privately if you wish (check my profile), but any responses here will go unanswered. And if I am wrong or misguided in any of the above, please correct me. I sincerely wish to be teachable. But this is what I feel the Lord has impressed upon me lately as I've wrestled with these issues.
Grace and peace to each of you.
Collin Houseal
Goodnight, cakes.
Long time fellow grieving Brother in Jesus Christ , first time poster
I grieve for you who so evidently care for Bellevue, I have seen the very same kind of arrogant "leadership" ( gag ) moving swiftly and arrogantly on Churches all across this nation.
You are not dealing with just sin, or simple confusion, you are dealing with an end times delusion and anti-christ spiritual movement which was hatched in hell in intricate detail for eons...
Yet,... it is GOD Himself, who is sovereignly decreeing and allowing this global end times delusion to be imbibed upon by so many within the so-called " visible Church ".
You all are being tested , and sifted. God is sending powerful and strong delusion upon the planet, and upon all those who did not receive a LOVE of the TRUTH, so as to be Saved.
The new age or purpose driven movement cares little for what it considers to be " stupid sheep ".
Also,...I would lovingly remind all of you that it matters prescious little whether leaders are deceived or if they are actual deceivers , the net spiritual impact is identically the same...
Desecration of Doctrine...ie:
Desecration of God's Truth
Desecration of Gods faithful watchmen.
Desecration of Biblical purity and seperation ( Holiness )
Desecration of God's worship
Spiritual Desecration of Old, middle aged , and young Believers
Desecration of Standards, by-laws, and Biblically sound congregational standards,
Swift eradication of all means of leadership accountability to anyone but themselves.
Continual use of the pulpit to belittle, demean, and to excoriate those who Biblically discern that it is "always" spiritually dangerous to unite in error, and it is "always" better to be divided by TRUTH .
Remember Brothers and Sisters :
SOUND Doctrine divides...
always has, always will,
Everywhere Jesus went, there was division and turmoil due to Jesus Doctrine...which always pierced the heart and soul and identified those few true followers from the half hearted , worldly phonies, with their own self-interest on the throne.
Those who belittle or ignore or replace Sound Doctrine, oppose , belittle or replace Jesus Christ , who is the embodiment and spiritual essense of all Sound Doctrine.
Gods Word warns, that those who abide in the Doctrine of Christ hath both the Father and the Son, but...those who do NOT abide in the Doctrine of Christ hath neither the Father, Nor the Son.
The Bible is TRUE, straight and simple, ....lying men always seek to make it to appear complex and/or evolving.
Be Not deceived :
I heartily recommend Tamara Hartzells excellent new book ...
" IN THE NAME OF PURPOSE "
Sacrificing TRUTH on the altar of Unity ...It is now available online and can be ordered in paperback or hard cover. It is an eye opener.
Hmmmm
Unity , Unity, Unity, Unity,...
( Minus PURITY OF TRUTH )
Hmmm
Where have I heard that call coming from? I will tell you , as I am sure you may already know.
Pulpits of New Age , Emergent, or Purpose Driven Churches , and all of the Willow Creek association Churches, and ....last, but not least
The Tower of Babel.
Remember ?
They were all ONE ....Unified....yet GOD called them and their man-centerred spiritual endeavor ....BABEL ( Confusion ) , and dispersed this anti-GOD , anti-TRUTH , UNITY conscious crowd all across the face of the planet, ...but... but...they are BACK...the Oneness crowd...The Unity sekkers ...for their final hurrahhhh, just before the big barbecue GOD has planned.
Finally, my brethren:
Be Strong in The Lord and in the power of His might...
STICK WITH JESUS CHRIST ..STICK WITH HIS WORD..THE TRUTH , THE WHOLE TRUTH , AND NOTHING BUT THE TRUTH ..IT IS A SURE FOUNDATION..and the devils ' worst nightmare
SO HELP ME AND US , OH GOD ..AMEN
Reprove, Rebuke and then come out from the false unifiers and the end times Babel...
and
STAND..!!
Time is so short
Maranatha
MOM4 said...
I am praying that IDC will either have a churchwide meeting, which I believe was what they were planning if they had gotten the mailing list. I will pray that they go ahead and let the word be spread by mouth, email and this blog.
I have friends just waiting for this; friends that are worshipping at other churches already but still have their membership at BBC. I think a meeting with calmly presented facts is the key.
msdreamwise said...
I do agree about the possible new fellowship. I wonder about our legal grounds for part of the resources needed to build somewhere else and get out of their hair.
I know when we split from our church, we started with nothing. People that had held their tithes contributed those, we had a strong bunch of tithers, we rented a movie theater for 6 weeks until we found a place to rent and meet. 5 years later we had enough money to buy land, then we built a building. It is certainly not an easy process. The Shelby Baptist Association (I know they have a new name, but I can't remember it just this second)loaned us some hymnals, we bought SS literature...we just literally started from square one. I must tell you that while it was very difficult, many meetings, our children didn't have all the bells and whistles of an organized church- it was the sweetest time I can remember. We were all in UNITY working together in love. That time was a blessing from God.
All this to say that I have no idea whether God is calling you to start another church or not (if you do, I'm with you) but just my first hand knowledge of the work and sacrifice it takes to do it.
It makes me sad that you are having to think in that way because there were a group of people that worked just as hard to start BBC- how sad that she is has been so abused now by those in power.
New BBC Open Forum said...
trollcakes wrote:
"How many dark actions can you recall from history that transpired through the apathy, fear or denial of the masses? Most people
just want to move on and not disrupt their lives; leaders aren't plucked from this ilk."
So true. Evil triumphs when good men (and women) do nothing.
----------------------------------
"apathy, fear or denial of the masses"....."good men (and women) do nothing"
Trollcakes and NEWBBC(and others that have repeated the same words), are you saying that believers that don't sign a petition or blog all day(night) long have the above characteristics?? You don't know what ANYONE is doing. I for one am seeking God and the truth and waiting for him. I am trying to do nothing other than what I feel led to do. Yet you would say that everybody but you 2-300 bloggers are lost, misguided, and do not seek the truth.
I think YOU are blaspheming the Holy Spirit's work in the life's of others.
I will no longer look for "truth" on this site. For the most part I only read it now for the National Enquirer qualities that have engulfed what little truth has been posted.
My only posts to this site were to get you to turn on moderation which you immediately removed my post. Eventually, you allowed ACE to attack SOTL and finally turned on moderation.
You have been your own enemy.
msdreamwise,
As far as funding a new church, I do not want to take any of the money from BBC. That money was given to the Lord thru the sacrifices of His people and it is His money and THEY are accountable to Him for how they spend it. It is not ours for the taking any more than it is theirs. HOWEVER, GBC did have an independent group form a 501(c)3 where they could legally accept charitable contributions to be held in trust until those that contributed approved the release of the money. That worked for them, and the money was set apart from the church and they (the church or anyone else)could not touch it. Perhaps IDC, being a legal 501(c)3 could check into this for us. Then if we are forced to depart from our heritage church, we will have a financial leg to stand on if the donors approve. At the very least, it will give those who do not want to contribute their tithes to BBC a legitimate, legal and Christ honoring alternative to the support of sin at BBC. I am not a lawyer, this just makes sense to me.
Any thoughts anyone?
bugsii: I must admit to not understanding your post. I have found facts posted here to be quite credible, backed up with hard evidence. For the most part, I have found the truthseekers here to be kind, strong in the word, and searching to do God's will. I have been encouraged to see growth and friendships formed, the ability to debate without being hostile. Oh, I know, there are some who say it has been "hateful." It has been my experience that those that have said that are the ones that think any disagreement or debate at all is hateful. Of course, mature Christians know it is not. The searching through scriptures IN CONTEXT is paramount to understanding them; it takes time, effort and sacrifice. Many only want to listen to others tell them what scripture means; they do not wish to put forth the effort themselves. That is why they are so easily deceived.
Numbers do not make things right. There are many examples in scripture of the small remnant AOG was speaking of earlier. I will stand alone with my Savior for truth instead of standing with the masses for words that dishonor my Lord. Many things that have been said to the sheep dishonor the One who died for us all.
bugsii wrote: "I think YOU (dissenters) are blaspheming the Holy Spirit's work in the life's of others."
Geez, bugsii, where'd you come up with that wisdom? Maybe God's Word? A good post from you but it falls on deaf ears and closed minds. Don't you realize that the 20 regular posters on this board are lead by the Holy Spirit to tear down what God has built. Yea, I know, it doesn't make much sense but you know that they have better discernment than the thousands of us who are fools in their eyes.
Now I read where someone is suggesting that they leave and build their own church. They may learn that it is easier to tear down than to build something. I've got a great name for them...Third Baptist Church. Sorry, but the first group that left Bellevue already has taken the Second Baptist name. As Dr. Phil would say to those folks at Second..."how's that working for you?". Not too well from my understanding, but hey they were able to separate from the misguided. Only the misguided grew and grew and grew and was blessed by God. It makes one start thinking doesn't it?
Two posts on this thread which make much sense, and with which I agree..don's and ch's. First principle in getting a grasp on this situation is the very first verse of scripture..."In the beginning, God..."...God never has and never will have "need" of anything or anyone. He is all-blessed within himself...perfect, complete, joyous in His own perfections and attributes. The triune Jehovah created all things for and according to His own good pleasure and purposes. Perhaps His purpose in Bellevue is finished...I don't pretend to know..but I've had more than one friend detached personally from this situation who have suggested that very thing. I do know that clinging to anything too tightly in this world is an exercise in futility, seeing we have ownership of nothing, and God disposes of all as He deems fitting. Perhaps don is right in saying a delusion from God is upon Bellevue, and indeed upon the world at large. This has also been suggested to me by a friend with no personal stake in this situation. Perhaps God has shut the door on the truth at BBC..if so, we know from scripture that what God shuts no man can open, and what He opens, no man can shut. In light of these possibilities each of us must earnestly seek God's face in this matter as to what He would have us do. What is it that we seek?...what are we trying to save?...very pertinent questions indeed. If all we desire to save is the memory of what BBC was, or the buildings, the money, programs, etc. which, as ch pointed out, are only the trappings of religion, and not the true church...which is made up of all those in vital union with Christ in His blood. How is a "successful" outcome gauged in each of our minds? If staying and continuing to stand on principle is what God would have you do..then whatever happens, that will be the best case scenario for you...if it is to move on and find a new fellowship in which to worship and serve God, then that is the best case scenario for you. One question which has crossed my mind that I'll share with you is this...even if the current leadership were to step aside..given the majority of those who oppose us aren't so much broken or grieved over this schism as they are angry that the apple cart has been upset, could there be genuine fellowship..even if the above scenario were to happen? God could certainly restore it if He chooses to, but it's a question which, in my mind, should surely be pondered. My prayer is for strength, resolve, and discernment for all of us as we ponder where God is leading in this matter. Blessings, Grace, and Peace, beloved.
jmo,
It's been apparent from the substance and tone of your posts that you could care less what becomes of those you oppose...you just want them to go..so what does it matter to you whether they start a new church, or just choose to join another? The "3rd Baptist" remark reveals much about your heart...full of the venom you accuse the other posters here of spewing...so what sets you apart from the rest?
Hello Friends, Truth is so important. The truth of the Word is crucial. Some will not like what I am going to say but I am led to say it: I am sorry for Steve Gaines. I am sorry for those sitting under his teaching and believing it. This can only happen because we are not Bereans anymore.
If you go through the outline of the sermon, almost all of it is taken out of context and used to fit his personal premise. This is nothing new, many pastors do it today because they do not fear God.
I know many are angry but we should be weeping because a shepherd is twisting the Word of God for personal gain.
I urge each of you to go through the outline and read each scrpture in context which may mean you have to read the entire book it was taken from. Note the context the scripture is taken from. Prayerfully seek the Holy Spirit's guidance on understanding the context of the scripture. Be a Berean and you cannot be led astray by false teaching.
There is NO unity outside the Word. The Holy Spirit uses the Word to teach us and speaks through the Word. As I have mentioned, John 17 is the foundation for Unity. It comes from the prayer that Jesus prayed for Himself, us the the Apostles. The unity He speaks of in the prayer are based on His teaching which is now the Word.
(How can anyone teach anything on unity without reading John 17?)
And we all know the Word has been ignored in this situation at BBC. If only Gaines understood what it means to 'gain the whole world but lose his soul. James was very serious when he said not all should be teachers of the Word.
We should fear for this man and those who follow him. We should weep and mourn for them. Jesus could come back tonight.
I was at Costco the other day behind a women who had separated her purchases. One was pastries and two cakes. The other purchase was a carton of cigarettes. I guess she felt the need to explain to me a waiting customer why she had to make two purchases.
"Well," she started, "one is for our youth at church (food I assumed) and the other is for me. I didn't want to show the cigarettes on the ticket. I know that I shouldn't even be buying cigarettes at all. Especially using the church's Costco card. We are all human though and I'm the pastor's wife. I know I shouldn't smoke, but I do."
I figured you guys would love to have this story. I am sure that someway you can compare it to Bellevue and get some mileage out of it. Let's see, co-mingling of funds, causing others to stumble, sin of the flesh...well you guys are better at this than I.
Probably before the days over someone will be telling this story and it will be Donna Gaines in place of this unnamed women, maybe beer in place of cigarette, and the location may change to Sam's. But as I said you guys are better than me on storytelling anyway!
All it will take to correct the wrongs, is for those with facts, truth and information to step out on faith and come forward with what they know. Even those whose spiritual standards are immature know the difference when presented with hard facts right in front of their faces. Of course, there will always be the power brokers who deny, deny, deny and contemplate and confuse with the meaning of "is" - but God blesses the truth and His Word does not return void.
bugsii wrote:
"Trollcakes and NEWBBC(and others that have repeated the same words), are you saying that believers that don't sign a petition or blog all day(night) long have the above characteristics?? You don't know what ANYONE is doing."
I never said that! I trust there are people who've never signed a petition, who don't even have internet access, much less "blog" all day, who are doing all sorts of things. Show me where I once even hinted I know what "anyone" is doing. I do know that there are plenty of people who are content to do nothing, to stick their heads in the sand, who say, "I don't want to know anything because it might cause me to have to think... or it might disrupt my comfortable little world." Those are the people about whom we're talking. It's obvious all you come here to do is argue. So, at least I know (some of) what you're doing. Are you having fun?
ch wrote: We see our church, "Bellevue," as all of the elements and attributes mentioned above, rather than seeing it as the living, eternal Church, the Bride of Christ, wholly set apart from that which is material and temporal.
Amen.
Don:"Gods Word warns, that those who abide in the Doctrine of Christ hath both the Father and the Son, but...those who do NOT abide in the Doctrine of Christ hath neither the Father, Nor the Son."
God Bless you, Don.
This is happening to churches all over the US. That is why discussing 'numbers' on any side is futile. In actuality, these churches will continue to grow very large because they offer a repentless Christianity that tickles ears. (Emergents will continue to grow because they are having a conversation to seek 'truth' and if they ever find it, the conversation is over.)
It is consumer Christianity with one stop shopping for horizontal relationships (false unity), social events, entertaining services and programs. These churches are growing on the 'cult of personality' of mere men. This is not the gospel of take up your cross and follow Me.
As these kinds of churches grow, we are also seeing growth in the Church of Jesus Christ Latter Day Saints and Islam. So, numbers are less of an indicator as you can see. (Matthew 7)
Here is a link to Tamara's book that Don mentioned. You can download it for free.
http://www.inthenameofpurpose.org/
lindon,
You consistently bless me with truth. I will download the book. I want to mention something else that may make a difference in the thinking of tithes and money. Germantown Baptist regained control of their church and snatched it back from heresy by withholding funds. Whether you put your tithe in the bank, give it to another ministry or bury it in a can in your yard, if BBC is missing the almighty dollar they worship, SOMEONE will take notice. It may take some time for them to run thru with the millions in the bank, but at the rate they are spending, it won't take too very long.
I understand that the attendance counters in the worship center used to count empty seats to get the attendance - you know, the church has just so many seats, and the empties are quicker to count that the full seats. I heard yesterday that they are now counting the noses because the empties are too great and takes too long.
Mom4: "It may take some time for them to run thru with the millions in the bank, but at the rate they are spending, it won't take too very long."
You may be right but I have also seen the other side. In one mega that I am familiar with, they wanted to start a campaign to build a building right after the completion of the last one. They needed money above operational tithes...again. To get the ball rolling...The elders...the elders...alone...pledged 10 million...in one day.
My point? There is always money to be had. They only have to attract the type of people they need. And that is fairly easy. Once you have made quite a bit of money you desire to do a 'Bob Buford'. He is big guru for the money types at Mega's. Check him out.
Don't forget: The Jews were expecting a powerful king-type as Messiah. What God sent was a poor peasant with no where to lay His head.
1 Corinthians 1:26-29
For consider your calling, brothers: not many of you were wise according to worldly standards, not many were powerful, not many were of noble birth. But God chose what is foolish in the world to shame the wise; God chose what is weak in the world to shame the strong; God chose what is low and despised in the world, even things that are not, to bring to nothing things that are, so that no human being might boast in the presence of God.
Lindon,
I am confused. You said ALL of SG sermon was taken out of context. Perhaps you can enlighten us and take his outline point by point and show us the fallacies.
I personally cant see how SG took the scriptures out of context. They all seem pretty clear to me.
To the others who say their is sin inside BBC, exactly what blatant ongoing sin is happening inside BBC. There were mistakes in past, but what is the current (on going) sin others are speaking of?
Good luck on starting your new church. JMO hit the nail on the head with Second Baptist.
My heart-felt commendation to Don's 1:05 AM, February 26, 2007 post. I read it to Bear Frankson who was driven off public property by PDC pastor Lee McFarland near Phoenix, AZ and then had to go to court to defend himself. Bear responded with an invitation to Don to come out to Phoenix to join him in pickets in front of Purpose-Driven Churches and handing out materials exposing Warren's apostate teachings. We need more warriors like Don! God Bless him!!! Maybe he will join you all and stand in front of BBC!
Dear Terry, I can teach you nothing. Only the Holy Spirit can illuminate the truth of the Word to you.
If you really desire truth, then the answer is to simply take the outline and read each verse in the context of the book in which it was written. This will entail studying the entire book. Prayerfully ask the Holy Spirit to teach you. But one has to desire the truth.
Here is an excellent article on unity by Pastor Bob Dewaay, who explains it much better than I can.
http://cicministry.org/commentary/issue88.htm
With all of the " current " calls for UNITY ..
Lets go back into our rich spiritual heritage and see what our great cloud of wirnesses has left us .
Quotes on UNITY :
Puritan John Trapp
"Unity without verity [truth] is no better than conspiracy" (cited in The Golden Treasury of Puritan Quotations, p. 304).
A.W. Tozer
"The constantly recurring question must be: What shall we unite with and from what shall we separate? The question of coexistence does not enter here, but the question of union and fellowship does. The wheat grows in the same field as the tares, but shall the two cross-pollinate? The sheep graze near the goats, but shall they seek to interbreed? The unjust and the just enjoy the same rain and sunshine, but shall they forget their deep moral differences and intermarry? ... The Spirit-illuminated church will have none of this" (The Best of A.W. Tozer, p. 72).
C.H. Spurgeon
"On all hands we hear cries for unity in this and unity in that; but in our mind the main need of this age is not compromise but conscientiousness, 'First pure, then peaceable.' It is easy to cry 'A confederacy,' but that union that is not based on the truth of God is rather a conspiracy than a communion. Charity by all means: but honesty also. Love of course, but love to God as well as love to men, and love of truth as well as love of union. It is exceedingly difficult in these times to preserve one's fidelity before God and one's fraternity among men. Should not the former be preferred to the latter if both cannot be maintained? We think so" (The Sword and Trowel, April 1887, p. 196, as cited in C.H. Spurgeon and the Modern Church, by R.J. Sheehan, p. 22).
J.N. Darby
"Separation from evil is the necessary first principle of communion with Him ... Separation from evil is His principle of unity" (Separation of Evil: God's Principle of Unity, as cited in Biblical Separation, by Ernest Pickering, p. 116).
J. Gresham Machen
"Again, men tell us that our preaching should be positive and not negative, that we can preach the truth without attacking error. But if we follow that advice we shall have to close our Bible and desert its teachings. The New Testament is a polemic book almost from beginning to end ... It is when men have felt compelled to take a stand against error that they have risen to the really great heights in the celebration of the truth" (What Is Christianity, as cited in Biblical Separation, by Ernest Pickering, p. 97).
John Whitcomb Jr.
"Diversity and division is infinitely more precious than a satanic unity. The problem God's people are facing today: Satan wants unity in what? -- in error. God would infinitely prefer division because of truth. Do you know what Jesus said in Matthew 10? He said, 'I have come not to bring peace, not to bring unity, but to bring division, to set a son against his father, a daughter against her mother, so that people within their own households will be enemies of each other.' That is what Jesus said he came to do ... God's smashing of satanic ecumenical unity was an incredible blessing [Genesis 11: the Tower of Babel] ... The potential for satanic depravity is infinite, as long as what continues? -- a unity in error -- organized blasphemy. Measure this friends. Grasp it. Satan will, in his brief hour, at the end of this world, be given his opportunity to demonstrate what total unity is like in the human race, when every person will have a mark on the forehead or right hand, and will walk lockstep under incredible blasphemy ...
"You say, 'We want unity.' Oh, really? What kind of unity? 'We want all the churches to get together.' Oh, really? You mean in error, in confusion, in heresy? That is, dear friends, the ecumenical movement of our hour, in which all the great denominations and all the great church leaders are becoming more and more unified. In what? -- in compromise and theological error; and this is the ultimate horror" (from Human Races, a message delivered at Indian Hills Community Church, Lincoln, Nebraska, Fall of 1984).
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
* Key Bible Verses:
Psa. 133:1; Jn. 17:11, 21-23; 2 Chron. 30:12; Rom 15:5,6; 16:17,18; Dan. 2:43; 1 Cor. 1:10; 5:12,13; 10:17; 11:19; Eph. 4:3-6, 13-15; Phil. 1:27; 2:2; Col. 2:2; 3:14
( as excerpted from " Quotes on Unity " ...Biblical Discernment Ministries )
Don, you certainly don’t believe that someone with any understanding of the Scripture would think your quotes are in any way antithesis as to what was preached last night. The references you make are in context of churches allowing women ministers, approval of homosexuality, and the love of the world over the love of God. Please sir tell me where you see the direction of our church heading that is away from Truth. We may have some internal strive among ourselves as to how best to run the local church organization but I don’t see where we’ve lost our way as a church in following God’s Truth. Please reveal the specific ways that our local church has left the teachings of God’s Word.
Just My Opinion said...
Don, you certainly don’t believe that someone with any understanding of the Scripture would think your quotes are in any way antithesis as to what was preached last night. The references you make are in context of churches allowing women ministers, approval of homosexuality, and the love of the world over the love of God. Please sir tell me where you see the direction of our church heading that is away from Truth. We may have some internal strive among ourselves as to how best to run the local church organization but I don’t see where we’ve lost our way as a church in following God’s Truth. Please reveal the specific ways that our local church has left the teachings of God’s Word.
JMO, I am amazed that you don't see what is happening at BBC. Amazed.
It is Written:
But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.
Ist Corinthians 2:14
"The references you make are in context of churches allowing women ministers, approval of homosexuality, and the love of the world over the love of God."
Sorry guys, but I had to chuckle at the thought of women preachers and approving of homosexuality being associated with unity of believers in the days of Spurgeon, Trapp and Darby. Back then, Even unbelievers were against that!
No Unity of Error. That is the message.
Senior, God Bless you, Sir.
BBC Senior citzen:
God Bless and Be with you
It would behoove you to check out the " alleged" scriptures used by "leadership " .
If you want to see what GODS WORD actually says...it declares in GODS BIBLE the following in Titus ,
1 Put them in mind to be subject to principalities and powers, to obey magistrates, to be ready to every good work, 2 To speak evil of no man, to be no brawlers, but gentle, shewing all meekness unto all men. 3 For we ourselves also were sometimes foolish, disobedient, deceived, serving divers lusts and pleasures, living in malice and envy, hateful, and hating one another. 4 But after that the kindness and love F10 of God our Saviour toward man appeared, 5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost; 6 Which he shed on us abundantly F11 through Jesus Christ our Saviour; 7 That being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life. 8 This is a faithful saying, and these things I will that thou affirm constantly, that they which have believed in God might be careful to maintain good works. These things are good and profitable unto men.
9 But avoid foolish questions, and genealogies, and contentions, and strivings about the law; for they are unprofitable and vain. 10 A man that is an heretick after the first and second admonition reject; 11 Knowing that he that is such is subverted, and sinneth, being condemned of himself. 12 When I shall send Artemas unto thee, or Tychicus, be diligent to come unto me to Nicopolis: for I have determined there to winter. 13 Bring Zenas the lawyer and Apollos on their journey diligently, that nothing be wanting unto them. 14 And let ours also learn to maintain F12 good works for necessary uses, that they be not unfruitful. 15 All that are with me salute thee. Greet them that love us in the faith. Grace be with you all. Amen.
SBC SENIOR CITZEN,
Nowhere in that pasage is the word " divisive " used...
That is a blatant attempt to redefine Gods Word and to change the plain meaning of the text.
God says to reject a " heretick "
( one who justifies and teaches false doctrine )
The Purpose Driven steamrollers want all of Gods Flock to beleive that the word " divisive " can be used as a replacement for a purveyor of false doctrine. The aim is to shut the mouths of the Body of Christ, attempting to shame them into a false unity.
That perversion of sound doctrine is an abominable lie and a gross misrepresentation of Gods PURE WORD.
Division over TRUTH and Divisiveness over PURE DOCTRINE ..is a DIVINE DUTY AND A DIVINE COMMAND to all who name the name of Jesus Christ.
Be Not deceived:
The emperors have no clothes.
Some see that, most still do not...
We must all get deeply into The WORD..( what it " actually says " ) so that those who misquote and mis-use it to their advantage may be ashamed and exposed for whom they are and their shameful mis-use of Scripture.
This my brothers and Sisters , is the true essense of spiritual battle.
Praying for all of you and myself..
Amen
Lindon,
"Dear Terry, I can teach you nothing. Only the Holy Spirit can illuminate the truth of the Word to you."
lindon, you just illuminated the word to others who could not illuminate for themselves.
You have got to be kidding! You make an accusation the word of God is taught in heresy and yet you will not put your own exegisis on the scriptures. Nor will you define and prove a person taught heresies.
Easy to hurl the stone of heresy, back it up with your "correct" teachings.
Perhaps you should be the next pastor/pastorett of the new church.
Bottom line Lindon, put your pen where your mouth is, prove to everyone on this board SG taught heresies and distorted the word of God.
I am still confused.
What exactly is the biblical error that continues at BBC.
I agree there were mistakes in the past. What is the continual biblical error or sin.
Please validate these errors with scripture if possible please.
I have been reading this blog for a while, the mistakes were fully discussed and rediscussed.
We cant live in the past, what biblical error is currently happening at this moment, other than I cant have all the information about the church I want that I think I need to draw me closer to Christ so I can become more involved in church.
Terry,
You and JMO have embarrassed yourselves today. Instead of fighting with you I am praying for the Lord to open your spiritual eyes.
Everyone else, instead of lecturing, we must take pity on some of these. Consider why they cannot see and pray for them.
"Dear Terry, I can teach you nothing. Only the Holy Spirit can illuminate the truth of the Word to you."
lindon, you just illuminated the word to others who could not illuminate for themselves."
Dear Terry, The first sentence above still stands. I can teach YOU nothing. Only the Holy Spirit can illuminate the truth to you. I sense you really want to argue not seek truth.
As Don quoted:
But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.
Ist Corinthians 2:14
blogger said "I heard yesterday that they are now counting the noses because the empties are too great and takes too long."
response: Gossip
When Jesus met the devil in the desert, the devil mocked and scoffed at Jesus , imploring Him to "prove" Himself .
Jesus...who knew quite well that "dialogue " with the accuser was of no spiritual effect, never once answered the devil with anything but ...
IT IS WRITTEN
Bottom Line...
Never answer a devil or one of his accusers with a defense of self ..
answer them with THE SWORD of THE SPIRIT .
The Holy WORD of GOD THE FATHER.
Never, ever, ever , "dialogue "...with the accuser.
Amen
bbc senior citizen,
I will so miss your posts....I wish you would still check on the blog and continue to share your wisdom. I understand your position....many of my friends have done the same...several deacons. I am also ready to find a church that I can move forward in....I had to give my voice to the PW cover up and have felt since then that it was not about the win but about the stand.My son, all our children, are watching and learning. Thank you for your wisdom.
Lindon,
I dont want to argue, I just want clarification on the heresies. You put it out there, now back it up.
Because I truly ask a question for clarification I am now unsaved per your reference to 1 Cor 2:14.
Thanks Don. Very good advice for me.
Lindon,
From your previous posts, you sound very theological sound. You dont seem like some others that post out of emotion.
I am really surprised you dont want to back up your accusation toward the pastor.
Lindon...
My brother in Jesus Christ ..The Good Shepherd..
Gods Blessing and Peace to you
I am blessed to know you as
my fellow soldier in Jesus Christ.
Until He Comes for His own.
Don
Mom 4 wrote:
"JMO, I am amazed that you don't see what is happening at BBC. Amazed."
_________
25+ says:
Mom 4, don't be amazed. It was the same in Jesus' day imo. Those who should have understood were incredibly blind---
[And Jesus said, "For judgment I have come into this world, that those who do not see may see, and that those who see may be made blind. Then some of the Pharisees who were with Him heard these words, and said to Him, "Are we blind also?" Jesus said to them, "If you were blind, you would have no sin; but now you say, 'We see.' Therefore your sin remains." John 9:39f]
I have a question:
Terry Smith-- Why are you here? Is BBC now or has BBC ever been your church? Why are you here?
What are the three top issues for BBC??
1) Pastoral Accountability to the Congregation
2) Congregational Church governance
3) Treatment of ministers on staff at BBC and all members of BBC
Here are a few important changes that would help restore the trust of many members during these days of crisis in leadership:
I. Pastoral Accountability to the Congregation:
1. A business meeting in accord with Matthew 18 to deal with the issues that remain related to Mark Sharpe and "the Dream"... and any other loose ends that should have been dealt with months ago!!
2. The giving records of the membership and the ministers on staff at Bellevue should never be for pastoral review--or any other minister's, layperson's, or committee's review--in any shape, form, or fashion. That should be between God and the giver, period!
3. Due to concern for potential abuse, no church credit cards.
4. An admission that the pastor should never have suggested and/or recommended that $25k be given to FUMC and an explanation of policy changes to prevent a repeat.
5. A policy for open books on Holy land trips--or any other trip-- and no overcharging of members.
6. Full disclosure of ministerial compensation: salary + benefit breakdown, etc.
7. Immediate removal from office of ministers guilty of sexual immorality with immediate coordination with the appropriate authorities if any laws have been broken by a minister (no matter how long ago), including thorough investigation of the matter when the minister’s conduct may have affected other church members or their children.
8. Compliance with the laws of Tennessee—within the specified time for compliance as outlined by statute--with regard to requests from membership for information, such as: membership list, financial records, current bylaws, business meeting minutes, and finance committee meeting minutes.
9. More careful consideration of candidates for ordination with due consideration of congregational approval. If the congregation is not in one accord with regard to a candidate, then the reasons for the objections should be given serious consideration and answered satisfactorily in order to preserve congregational unity.
II. Congregational Church governance:
Some of the congregation has awakened to the reality that our church has a set of non-elected "lay-elders," a close knit group of men who manage to be appointed to key positions year after year. The rest of the congregation needs to be awakened.
1. Those that are part of this lay-elder "power block" need to step down from positions of influence for a long time. Bellevue needs “new blood” in these key positions.
2. There needs to be the signing of a public conflict of interest form for any member that has any business contract to provide services for the church. These people should not be allowed to serve on committees that review bids for their services.
3. Congregational nomination of and election of all of the Board of Directors as called for in the 1929 bylaws.
4. A quarterly business meeting with open mike Q&A with each committee chairman. **The current bylaws mention "monthly" business meetings! When were they changed??
5. A good updated set of bylaws similar to GBC.
6. A transparent committee selection process.
7. Much greater congregational oversight of the current budget with a transparent policy for consideration of non-budgeted expenditures exceeding a reasonable amount.
8. Thorough communication with the Congregation for ANY capital project well in advance of any vote. Building prayer buildings or any other type of building should be brought through proper channels to the congregation for prayerful consideration--not coerced "rubber stamping." [By the way, BBC's former leadership taught us quite a bit about prayer. As a matter of fact, I believe all of the current buildings ARE prayer buildings already. BBC's former leadership taught us quite a bit about worship also... but that's another topic].
9. Bellevue needs to reject Warrenism fully and finally.
10. Higher standards should be put in place for the hiring of "ministers." Seminary training should be considered a normal prerequisite.
11. A new policy should be drafted that would govern the formation of future pastor search committees according to traditional Baptist polity. Qualifications for service should be given (in part to avoid potential future conflicts of interest) and future committee members should be nominated and approved by the whole congregation.
III. Treatment of ministers on staff at BBC and members:
1. A whistle blower policy for ministers, staff, and members.
2. The end of heavy handed dealing with ministers, staff, and members; and the end of signing non-disclosure statements. All ministers who have been pressured or asked to sign such non-disclosure statements should be released from them in writing by BBC! Former staff should be allowed to address the congregation and/or the deacon body either in writing or in person without any fear of reprisal regarding their exit from BBC. The congregation needs to know how their leadership has treated and is treating ministers who leave the service of our Lord through BBC.
3. Forgiveness for those in leadership who have allowed this to deteriorate to this point--AND consequences for their actions.
All in my opinion as usual.
We are to be “providing things honestly in the sight of all men” (Rom. 12:17). Revival, reform, congregational oversight... for there is level ground at Calvary and "he who would be great among you shall be the servant of all."
AOG said
...even if the current leadership were to step aside..given the majority of those who oppose us aren't so much broken or grieved over this schism as they are angry that the apple cart has been upset, could there be genuine fellowship..even if the above scenario were to happen
Piglet says:
This has come up at our house. So many like JMO think disunity is the great evil and that the sin covered by those inleadership is beside the point.
This worship of unity for the sake of itself is paving the way for the one-world church. After all, we have those that still defend the donation to the apostate church. Unity seems to be emerging as the new gospel.
It truly sends chills down my spine...and makes me look heavenward.
My one motivation, I think, in light of all this is to right a wrong, to not turn a blind eye to the great deception that is being taking place in our pulpit. It is like walking away from a crime scene because you don't want to be involved. I feel I have a responsibility to our fellow believers who still do not know enough to make their own determination.
It is very possible that no matter what happens, we will have to worship elsewhere. Much has been
JMO said
I figured you guys would love to have this story. I am sure that someway you can compare it to Bellevue and get some mileage out of it. Let's see, co-mingling of funds, causing others to stumble, sin of the flesh...well you guys are better at this than I.
Probably before the days over someone will be telling this story and it will be Donna Gaines in place of this unnamed women, maybe beer in place of cigarette, and the location may change to Sam's. But as I said you guys are better than me on storytelling anyway!
Piglet says:
Welcome to the world of sarcasm and judgemental remarks you claim to not be a part of and condemn on a regular basis. WE don't need to make up stories. There are plenty of facts that incriminate Steve Gaines and others. Why do you think they are hiding the documents that should be open to us by law?
Oh,I know, for the sake of UNITY.
What the sheep don't know won't hurt US, they say.
Don't kid yourself.
Godly wisdom is this:
Ephesians 6:10-18
10 Finally, my brethren, be strong in the Lord, and in the power of his might. 11 Put on the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to stand against the wiles of the devil. 12 For we wrestle not against flesh F18 and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places. 13 Wherefore take unto you the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to withstand in the evil day, and having done all, to stand. 14 Stand therefore, having your loins girt about with truth, and having on the breastplate of righteousness; 15 And your feet shod with the preparation of the gospel of peace; 16 Above all, taking the shield of faith, wherewith ye shall be able to quench all the fiery darts of the wicked. 17 And take the helmet of salvation, and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God: 18 Praying always with all prayer and supplication in the Spirit, and watching thereunto with all perseverance and supplication for all saints;
Lindon, you are one great student of history. Homosexuality and perverse acts didn't just come on the scene. Have you ever wondered where the word sodomy came from? And if these were not issues in times of the Old and New Testament then why so many recorded verses. The only thing we have today is more openness and acceptance by the world.
And Proverbs 12:22, do not pity me. Thou holier than I attitude doesn't become you. You don't have to agree with me, you don't have to read my postings and you certainly don't have to respond.
Piglet, please reveal some of those facts that you claim. Maybe start with the $30,000 story which have been mentioned in the last couple of days. Oh I know the source is someone told someone but that the someone who told it is beyond reproach. Most of what I've read on this blog turned out to me much ado about nothing once the full story was revealed.
Terry Smith
What sin is still in our leadership? They have mismanaged our tithe dollars and are denying financialrecords because they want to cover it up.
Our pastor CONTINUES drawing a ridiculous salary and abandoning his flock on Wednesdays to preach at other churches for MORE money. He is STILL greedy.
He calls anyone who questions HIM divisive. He is a proud, aroogant, and deceitful man.
IDC is trying to get to the truth of these matters and call a church business meeting to bring our church TOGETHER and to UNITE IN THE TRUTH. In all likelihood it would mean that some folks would have to step down or be removed for actions unbecoming a minister. Gaines uses the pulpit to call these people divisive when it is he who has denied meetings and documents to bring all matters into the light.
Our leadership is actively covering up their actions and folks like you do not care. You are angry at those who want all this settled openly and side with those who love darkness rather than light.
Sometimes, a post is just so fascinating...
DON said...
When Jesus met the devil in the desert, the devil mocked and scoffed at Jesus , imploring Him to "prove" Himself .
Jesus...who knew quite well that "dialogue " with the accuser was of no spiritual effect, never once answered the devil with anything but ...
IT IS WRITTEN
Bottom Line...
Never answer a devil or one of his accusers with a defense of self ..
answer them with THE SWORD of THE SPIRIT .
The Holy WORD of GOD THE FATHER.
Never, ever, ever , "dialogue "...with the accuser.
Amen
I must ask, Don. I must.
From your post up there, it appears as if anyone who disagrees with you and yours is either:
1) Satan. (And no, I'm not referring to Miroslav Satan of the New York Islanders.)
2) A demon. or "a devil." (And no, I'm not referring to the New Jersey Devils.)
3) Someone under the volitional control of Satan. (And no, I'm not referring to hockey fans in general.)
Are one, or all, of those three options what you intended to communicate?
--Mike
Terry smith said...
blogger said "I heard yesterday that they are now counting the noses because the empties are too great and takes too long."
response: Gossip
What was the count yesterday?
Pure WORDS of OUR GREAT AND LIVING GOD
Hebrews 4:12
For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.
and
John 15: 18-25
18 If the world hate you, ye know that it hated me before it hated you. 19 If ye were of the world, the world would love his own: but because ye are not of the world, but I have chosen you out of the world, therefore the world hateth you. 20 Remember the word that I said unto you, The servant is not greater than his lord. If they have persecuted me, they will also persecute you; if they have kept my saying, they will keep yours also. 21 But all these things will they do unto you for my name's sake, because they know not him that sent me. 22 If I had not come and spoken unto them, they had not had sin: but now they have no cloke for their sin. 23 He that hateth me hateth my Father also. 24 If I had not done among them the works which none other man did, they had not had sin: but now have they both seen and hated both me and my Father. 25 But this cometh to pass, that the word might be fulfilled that is written in their law, They hated me without a cause.
Jesus caused division - they crucified Him for it...hmmmmm.
JMO said
Piglet, please reveal some of those facts that you claim. Maybe start with the $30,000 story which have been mentioned in the last couple of days. Oh I know the source is someone told someone but that the someone who told it is beyond reproach. Most of what I've read on this blog turned out to me much ado about nothing once the full story was revealed.
Piglet says:
I can't comment on the $30,000.00 thing because I know nothing about it.
I do KNOW that the pastor makes over $400,000.00 a year and moonlights on Wednesdays for MORE money after telling us he needed more time for his family.
This is called GREED and LYING.
I do KNOW that he broke the law when he denied members documents that should be open for all to see. Why? Because the incriminating evidence would cause disunity (which I guess is now our highest calling regardless of the cost).
Disobedience to the law is DISOBEDIENCE to God.
I KNOW he allowed an investigation to take place and DENIED the testimony of the central witness. WHY? He is hiding the truth, whatever it is. Then he releases the report as thorough which is another LIE.
He failed to protect his own sheep from a pedophile for 6 months. Then he defends his actions by saying he didn't know any better. Where is his discernment as a pastor? I don't think lack of discernment is a sin but I think sin causes lack of discernment.
HE is causing DISUNITY by denying meetings, votes, public availability of documents and answers to questions that could ultimately UNIFY our church in TRUTH. WHY? Because this truth could cost him his cushy job.
IDC wants inity in the TRUTH, not a FALSE UNITY based on HYPOCRISY and LOYALTY TO MEN INSTEAD OF CHRIST.
When it comes to peace on earth,
Jesus spoke remarkably plainly :
"Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword."
Matthew 10:34
With all due Apologies to Rick Warren and his Unity conscious " peace plan "
The only question that matters in todays' mixed up Church is ...Just which Jesus are you following ?
The Living and True Jesus of Scripture? Or a Jesus of your own imagination ? or mens ambitious , yet unBiblical agendas?
Your eternal soul hangs in the balance with the answer to that question .
JMO said
Piglet, please reveal some of those facts that you claim. Maybe start with the $30,000 story which have been mentioned in the last couple of days. Oh I know the source is someone told someone but that the someone who told it is beyond reproach. Most of what I've read on this blog turned out to me much ado about nothing once the full story was revealed.
What is the full story about the $30,000 - I must have missed that one????
I ask again - "What about the $30,000?
Was the 'Downgrade' that Spurgeon preached against about homosexuality and women preachers? Nope. It was about doctrinal error. Was the ecumenism that Tozer, Mecham and Martin Lloyd Jones warned against about homosexuality and women preachers? Nope, it was about doctrinal error. Same with Darby and the Puritans.
Ironically, each of these warnings about doctrinal error not being heeded is what brought acceptance of women preachers and homosexuality as a 'lifestyle' and embraced by some churches.
bGods' Blessings to all who LOVE TRUTH.
I want to thank GOD for this opportunity to STAND with GODS Saints in defense of TRUTH and SOUND DOCTRINE.
I wish to leave this re-post as a reminder and encouragement to those who have come upon this spiritual battle in the middle.
Gods Blessings to You !!
From this morning : 1;05 am
I grieve for you who so evidently care for Bellevue, I have seen the very same kind of arrogant "leadership" ( gag ) moving swiftly and arrogantly on Churches all across this nation.
You are not dealing with just sin, or simple confusion, you are dealing with an end times delusion and anti-christ spiritual movement which was hatched in hell in intricate detail for eons...
Yet,... it is GOD Himself, who is sovereignly decreeing and allowing this global end times delusion to be imbibed upon by so many within the so-called " visible Church ".
You all are being tested , and sifted. God is sending powerful and strong delusion upon this planet, and upon all those who did not receive a LOVE of the TRUTH, so as to be Saved.
The new age or purpose driven movement cares little for what it considers to be " stupid sheep ".
Also,...I would lovingly remind all of you that it matters prescious little whether leaders are deceived or if they are actual deceivers , the net spiritual impact is identically the same...
Desecration of Doctrine...ie:
Desecration of God's Truth
Desecration of Gods faithful watchmen.
Desecration of Biblical purity and seperation ( Holiness )
Desecration of God's worship
Spiritual Desecration of Old, middle aged , and young Believers
Desecration of Standards, by-laws, and Biblically sound congregational standards,
Swift eradication of all means of leadership accountability to anyone but themselves.
Continual use of the pulpit to belittle, demean, and to excoriate those who Biblically discern that it is "always" spiritually dangerous to unite in error, and it is "always" better to be divided by TRUTH .
Remember Brothers and Sisters :
SOUND Doctrine divides...
always has, always will,
Everywhere Jesus went, there was division and turmoil due to Jesus Doctrine...which always pierced the heart and soul and identified those few true followers from the half hearted , worldly phonies, with their own self-interest on the throne.
Those who belittle or ignore or replace Sound Doctrine, oppose , belittle or replace Jesus Christ , who is the embodiment and spiritual essense of all Sound Doctrine.
Gods Word warns, that those who abide in the Doctrine of Christ hath both the Father and the Son, but...those who do NOT abide in the Doctrine of Christ hath neither the Father, Nor the Son.
The Bible is TRUE, straight and simple, ....lying men always seek to make it to appear complex and/or evolving.
Be Not deceived :
I heartily recommend Tamara Hartzells excellent new book ...
" IN THE NAME OF PURPOSE "
Sacrificing TRUTH on the altar of Unity ...It is now available online and can be ordered in paperback or hard cover. It is an eye opener.
Hmmmm
Unity , Unity, Unity, Unity,...
( Minus PURITY OF TRUTH )
Hmmm
Where have I heard that call coming from? I will tell you , as I am sure you may already know.
Pulpits of New Age , Emergent, or Purpose Driven Churches , and all of the Willow Creek association Churches, and ....last, but not least
The Tower of Babel.
Remember ?
They were all ONE ....Unified....yet GOD called them and their man-centerred spiritual endeavor ....BABEL ( Confusion ) , and dispersed this anti-GOD , anti-TRUTH , UNITY conscious crowd all across the face of the planet, ...but... but...they are BACK...the Oneness crowd...The Unity seekers ...for their final hurrahhhh, just before the big barbecue GOD has planned.
Finally, my brethren:
Be Strong in The Lord and in the power of His might...
STICK WITH JESUS CHRIST ..STICK WITH HIS WORD..THE TRUTH , THE WHOLE TRUTH , AND NOTHING BUT THE TRUTH ..IT IS A SURE FOUNDATION..and the devils ' worst nightmare
SO HELP ME AND US , OH GOD ..AMEN
Reprove, Rebuke and then come out from the false unifiers and the end times Babel...
and
STAND..!!
Time is so short
Maranatha
Don
1:05 AM, February 26, 2007
I found it interesting that someone on the communications committee made a comment early on that Steve Gaines' sermons were ready early in the week and they could send the little "notetakers sheet" to print for us to fill in the blanks. I also foung it interesting that they complained about Dr Rogers' being last minute with changes, which annoyed them.
As Dr Rogers was moved of the Holy Spirit during his time of prayer prior to delivering a sermon, I guess perhaps there were changes that needed to be made at the last minute.
It showed in the quality and gravity of his sermons. Thank you Dr Adrian Rogers, for giving us truth.
I wonder if any of the students at MABTS recognized the error in the sermon last night?
2 Corinthians 11
Paul and the False Apostles
1I wish you would bear with me in a little foolishness. Do bear with me! 2I feel a divine jealousy for you, for I betrothed you to one husband, to present you as a pure virgin to Christ. 3But I am afraid that as the serpent deceived Eve by his cunning, your thoughts will be led astray from a sincere and pure devotion to Christ. 4For if someone comes and proclaims another Jesus than the one we proclaimed, or if you receive a different spirit from the one you received, or if you accept a different gospel from the one you accepted, you put up with it readily enough. 5I consider that I am not in the least inferior to these super-apostles. 6Even if I am unskilled in speaking, I am not so in knowledge; indeed, in every way we have made this plain to you in all things.
7Or did I commit a sin in humbling myself so that you might be exalted, because I preached God's gospel to you free of charge? 8I robbed other churches by accepting support from them in order to serve you. 9And when I was with you and was in need, I did not burden anyone, for the brothers who came from Macedonia supplied my need. So I refrained and will refrain from burdening you in any way. 10As the truth of Christ is in me, this boasting of mine will not be silenced in the regions of Achaia. 11And why? Because I do not love you? God knows I do!
12And what I do I will continue to do, in order to undermine the claim of those who would like to claim that in their boasted mission they work on the same terms as we do. 13For such men are false apostles, deceitful workmen, disguising themselves as apostles of Christ. 14And no wonder, for even Satan disguises himself as an angel of light. 15So it is no surprise if his servants, also, disguise themselves as servants of righteousness. Their end will correspond to their deeds.
Piglet wrote: "IDC is trying to get to the truth of these matters and call a church business meeting to bring our church TOGETHER and to UNITE IN THE TRUTH."
Well, I'll be. And all this time I were a thinking that they were dividing us. Nows I know those good ol folk are just trying to unit us under the Truth. I reckons we ignorant folk just didn't realize the blessings IDC was bringing to us. (I kind of like this read in the accent of grandpa on the Real McCoy's. I always like his ol country sarcasm. For you young folks, it won't make much sense)
JMO says that he thinks that the Truth was to be found in God's Word. He didn't know that it took a business meeting to find the Truth!
It is interesting to read about the concerns of where Steve Gaines has purchased land. Some mentioned it was a gated community. Oh my, and for those who've never been invited to the Rogers' home. It is in a gated community in Lakeland. And we wonder if money goes into Bro. Steve's ministry. Did anyone ever see the line item on funds Bellevue gave to LWF. Hmmmm...such a double standard to which we hold Bro. Steve.
mom4 wrote yesterday: "ilovebbc,
I have no problem funding staff mission trips to further the gospel. I would prefer that the trip and associated expenses were paid by the church like those taken by the previous leadership. The church makes travel arrangements, receiving appropriate tax exemptions and discounts and if necessary, giving the participant a cash travel advance which is to be reimbursed with expense receipts and/or cash back to account for the advance rather than cutting the staff member's wife a $30,000 check in her name with no strings attached.
Figure the reasoning for that one please and let me know how this applies to a tax exempt corporation with legal requirements for reporting.
Tim, perhaps that is why they will not release the financial records.
Perhaps the IRS needs to investigate."
mom4 writes today: "What is the full story about the $30,000 - I must have missed that one????"
mom4, I don't understand why you are asking me about the story when you were the one to break it yesterday. Please explain...or did you just throw out the amount as an example. I thought at first that is what happened. But by the end of the day people were discussing it as if it were fact. And by the way it is not fact. And that is how rumors and gossip starts.
Great article from Pyromaniacs on Unity. Read through it and pay close attention to the last 2 paragraphs.
http://teampyro.blogspot.com/2007/02/wrong-kind-of-unity.html
JMO,
I am looking for an explanation of why they gave her $30,000.00. I know it happened, I just don't know why. Do you? If it is something legitimate, please let me know what it is and I will shut up about it.
JMO says that he thinks that the Truth was to be found in God's Word. He didn't know that it took a business meeting to find the Truth!
Piglet says:
You are so arrogant and condescending.
I suppose you would take the scissors and cut Matt. 18 out of your Bible? We have unresolved issues in our church. These issues do not involve taste and preference but SIN in the leadership.
YES, IDC does desire UNITY IN TRUTH. Why does this truth scare you and make you so angry?
God says "If you love me, keep my commandments." and "To obey is better than to sacrifice."
If this leadership loves the Lord, they will pursue truth, not run from it. They will OBEY the scripture. Words about the inerrancy of scripture mean nothing if you then disobey the scripture.
It is the SIN of this leadership that causes division. With each point Gaines made in that sermon he further condemned himself.
He will give an account for every word he preached with unrepented sin still in his heart.
mom4 wrote: "JMO,
I am looking for an explanation of why they gave her $30,000.00. I know it happened, I just don't know why. Do you? If it is something legitimate, please let me know what it is and I will shut up about it."
And you know that to be fact...how? Please be specific and don't say, somebody told me. Remember you guys are all about transparency, right?
1. Steve Gaines has unrepentive sin that has not allowed him to preach with the Holy Spirit that will continue.
2. We have a number of elders who have knowingly mislead staff and lay leadership. As the ones who are running the church, the dark clouds that hang over Bellevue will continue and grow darker.
3. Good people are being led away from Bellevue which makes me believe the Church may have left Bellevue. A church building does not make a church.
Just My Opinion said...
mom4 wrote: "JMO,
I am looking for an explanation of why they gave her $30,000.00. I know it happened, I just don't know why. Do you? If it is something legitimate, please let me know what it is and I will shut up about it."
And you know that to be fact...how? Please be specific and don't say, somebody told me. Remember you guys are all about transparency, right?
2:27 PM, February 26, 2007
Eyes have seen and ears have heard and if you think I am naming names I can tell you in the words of Bruce Brooke "ain't happenin"!
There is no way that I am putting someone in harms way to satisfy your curiosity - go ask someone to see the books and then get back to me and we will talk.
Actually piglet, people that know me personally would rarly say I'm either but hey there is a first time. I know it's frustrating when faced with answering questions with straight forward answers. If you don't know, then say you don't know. But if you take a stand then be prepared to defend your position. I am only looking to help everyone be accountable. Isn't that one of the goals....making our pastor more accountable? Doesn't that work for us all.
Maybe my writing style gives way to you thinking differently about me than I am. Or maybe the fact we are mostly annoymous allows us to take on a different personality.
mom4, I just got off the phone asking the question about the $30,000. No check has been cut to Donna Gaines for $30,000. Maybe the ears that heard and the eyes that saw need a doctor's exam!
JMO says:
Well, I'll be. And all this time I were a thinking that they were dividing us. Nows I know those good ol folk are just trying to unit us under the Truth. I reckons we ignorant folk just didn't realize the blessings IDC was bringing to us. (I kind of like this read in the accent of grandpa on the Real McCoy's. I always like his ol country sarcasm. For you young folks, it won't make much sense)
Piglet says:
This is what I am referring to.
IDC is the last hope for many who have one foot out the door. People are hurting. The sheep are being scattered. IDC truly is an organized group of members who want this SETTLED. It is becoming apparent that those in the wrong want these people to leave so they may continue on their sinful path without opposition. They do not want to reconcile, especially if it means all is laid bare.
Offline until later
We were told there never was any fence jumping.
Then we were told the fence was shin high.
Then the pictures came out......
David Coombs told the Commercial Appeal that the church would turn over documents to the members.
Then he was caught on tape saying he didn't care what TN law said....
Piglet said,
What sin is still in our leadership? They have mismanaged our tithe dollars and are denying financialrecords because they want to cover it up.
(mismanged how? Heavy accusation against a church. has this been proven other than hear say. They said they were wrong on the gift to the methodist church, what now)
Our pastor CONTINUES drawing a ridiculous salary and abandoning his flock on Wednesdays to preach at other churches for MORE money. He is STILL greedy.
(opinion, salary not been proven, what is your husbands salary, is he paid too much for what he does?)
He calls anyone who questions HIM divisive. He is a proud, aroogant, and deceitful man.
(based on your opinion, it appears you become proud and arrogant when people question you)
IDC is trying to get to the truth of these matters and call a church business meeting
(IDC is not the church, therefore they can not call a busines meeting, minority does not control the majority, we are a congregational people remember, you joined the church under the present rules, who are you to change them now)
to bring our church TOGETHER and to UNITE IN THE TRUTH.
(will not happen, the majority has no respect nor desires to have any association with the minority)
In all likelihood it would mean that some folks would have to step down or be removed for actions unbecoming a minister.
Gaines uses the pulpit to call these people divisive when it is he who has denied meetings and documents to bring all matters into the light.
(has Nass not done same thing i.e. ace)
Our leadership is actively covering up their actions
(prove exactly what is covered up and how it is covered up, no you are not getting the membership list, you have already shown your card with the various posts. It can be proven by your public posts the intent is to divide the corporation)
and folks like you do not care. You are angry at those who want all this settled openly and side with those who love darkness rather than light.
(again because we disagree with you we are in the darkness and are not christians)
Driving past BBC around 12:30 PM today, the channel 3 news truck was out front, near the entrance, with the cameraman aiming the camera at the " welcome to BBC" sign.
Don't know what this means. Are they doing a story?
mom4 and piglet,
do you now know where the term "wives tails" came from and not "husband tails"
Again, the $30k accusation just diminished your credibility even further.
Is it right for the pastor to make in the top 1% wage earners in the United States?
Just My Opinion said...
mom4, I just got off the phone asking the question about the $30,000. No check has been cut to Donna Gaines for $30,000. Maybe the ears that heard and the eyes that saw need a doctor's exam!
2:42 PM, February 26, 2007
I expected nothing less. Maybe whoever you talked to needs a heart exam.
http://64.34.176.235/sermons/SID14197.mp3
Great sermon: Our Ambition is the Please Him. By Paul Washer
Those of you whose purpose it is to taunt and belittle people on this blog--did any truthseekers get out of line last night during the charade at BBC?
All those that aprove, say skippity-do-da-day. (Under the breath) all that oppose, you're wrong and recieve no quarter. Cogregationally approved, my...
JMO, where is your mouth, since you were the one tongue-lashing that opponents could make a motion to table the Coombs ordination? When, sir, at what point during the service?
As the little children were exiting the choir?
Besides, y'all have warned us way more yhan twice, so might you be in danger of blaspheming if you don't follow last night's instructions from your beloved pastor, christians?
You couldn't wait a day or two to pull out the knives here, eh? Isn't there a circle y'all can stand in somewhere and congratulate each other?
The bottom line is this: an investigation was just finalized into the pedophile minister scandal that was subsequently found to be anything but no-stoned-unturned, some boulders, in fact, actually were leaped over completely; ultimately, it allows Gaines to frame (or not) his 6 month lapse in judgement, while levied only stern, yet embroidered, words from the PC (bwah!) in Coombs cold monotone before the church, but gets to keep his megachurch and goodies package--sweet.
(Do you have any idea what would happen if a Principal was found to have held in confidence a pedophile at his school for 6 months? If his defense was "uncharted waters," he'd likely get a spike in his sentence.)
To top it off, the head honcho of this knotted tapestry is ordained last night and on the payroll of BBC.
Yeah, sure. Move on; nothing to see here.
Ok, here we go again...
Why, I never...ever...EVER...
Something was brought up today I thought worth mentioning - if unity was so important, then why did Dr. Rogers fight so hard for the Word of God and TRUTH in the SBC - that certainly caused disunity. I guess he wasn't Spirit-filled?!?! BTW, jmo never answered my post from last night - what is the more appropriate way to get answers to our questions since so far, nothing has worked?
Mark Sharpe did exactly what he should have done (Biblically), and was told he was no longer a deacon by M. Dougherty. Next step, please?
lindon - Paul Washer is WONDERFUL, isn't he? We have been trying to get him here for a long time. One of his messages on Matthew 7:21 brought revival into our home!
terry smith said
prove exactly what is covered up and how it is covered up, no you are not getting the membership list, you have already shown your card with the various posts. It can be proven by your public posts the intent is to divide the corporation
Piglet says:
Are you really saying this with a STRAIGHT FACE after documents with the proof is denied to us and meetings are denied to us?
I say give us the documents and let us have our meeting if there has been no wrongdoing. You are another soul who has cut Matt. 18out of their Bible.
Concerning the salary -I suppose you have the best pastor money can buy. He's no longer making his salary on my tithe dollars. Just continue to give your bucks and stroke his egoand you'll be fine.
Terry smith said,
"Good luck on starting your new church. JMO hit the nail on the head with Second Baptist."
10:10 AM, February 26, 2007
************
No, I don't think "Second Baptist" hits the nail on the head. I prefer the name "LAST BAPTIST".
In the telling words of our Lord and Saviour, Jesus Christ of Nazareth, "And, behold, there are last who shall be first, and there are first who shall be last." Luke 13:30.
AMEN AND HALLELUJAH!
Dee Richardson
terry smith said
do you now know where the term "wives tails" came from and not "husband tails"
Piglet says:
A little sexism coming out here?
This is funny, especially considering who my husband is. :)
Terry goes on to say:
Again, the $30k accusation just diminished your credibility even further.
Piglet says:
Who needs credibility around here Terry? The leadership has none and you staunchly defend them.
Terry Smith made this ugly statement to two very gentle ladies by means of an 'error' in spelling:
"mom4 and piglet,
do you now know where the term "wives tails" came from and not "husband tails"
Again, the $30k accusation just diminished your credibility even further."
*********
This looks and sounds really ugly whether it was intentional or not. You need to remove it. It is offensive.
Dee
Really now - that's pretty bad!
Terry,
Why should anyone answer questions that aren't intended to lead to dialogue, but rather muddle it.
You win; please depart this place and take the men in suits with you, at least for a few days after the sanctification of the new CEO.
I say again, remember what padre said--twice; why are you still here?
truth or lie wrote: "Is it right for the pastor to make in the top 1% wage earners in the United States?"
First of all you do not know the salary of our pastor. Secondly, the Bible speaks to how we honor the labor of a pastor.
Timothy 5: 17 Let the elders that rule well be counted worthy of double honour, especially they who labour in the word and doctrine. 18 For the scripture saith, Thou shalt not muzzle the ox that treadeth out the corn. And, The labourer is worthy of his reward.
By the way, did you question the salary of Dr. Rogers?
piglet, please explain to me how there are documents which will prove your case but no one has seen these supposed documents? Now I can't ask that question with a straight face. This cover-up, conspiricy, mole on the inside and we are more spiritual than you stuff is just plain silly sometimes.
searchingforthetruthbbc wrote; "Something was brought up today I thought worth mentioning - if unity was so important, then why did Dr. Rogers fight so hard for the Word of God and TRUTH in the SBC - that certainly caused disunity.
Sorry I must have missed the point where Dr. Rogers withheld our SBC funding, didn't show up at the conventions, wrote letters filled with innuendos and untruths, and publicly criticized the SBC. Did I miss something? No, Dr. Rogers worked the system, went out and got the votes, rallied supporters to his beliefs and took it to the floor of the convention. Don't think that compares at all. And that's why it difficult for you guys to find support amoung the majority. You are being divisive and not working within the system.
cakes, once again you misspeak for me. I never mentioned how to stop the Coombs ordination. What I suggested was attending on a Wednesday evening in a large group and making a motion from the floor for a business meeting. BTW, I think that David is the most positive decision made in a long time.
To ALL Members of Bellevue:
I Kings 9:3-9
3 And the LORD said unto him, I have heard thy prayer and thy supplication, that thou hast made before me: I have hallowed this house, which thou hast built, to put my name there for ever; and mine eyes and mine heart shall be there perpetually.
4 And if thou wilt walk before me, as David thy father walked, in integrity of heart, and in uprightness, to do according to all that I have commanded thee, and wilt keep my statutes and my judgments;
5 then I will establish the throne of thy kingdom upon Israel for ever, as I promised to David thy father, saying, There shall not fail thee a man upon the throne of Israel.
6 But if ye shall at all turn from following me, ye or your children, and will not keep my commandments and my statutes which I have set before you, but go and serve other gods, and worship them;
7 then will I cut off Israel out of the land which I have given them; and this house, which I have hallowed for my name, will I cast out of my sight; and Israel shall be a proverb and a byword among all people:
8 and at this house, which is high, every one that passeth by it shall be astonished, and shall hiss; and they shall say, Why hath the LORD done thus unto this land, and to this house?
9 And they shall answer, Because they forsook the LORD their God, who brought forth their fathers out of the land of Egypt, and have taken hold upon other gods, and have worshipped them, and served them: therefore hath the LORD brought upon them all this evil.
THREE THINGS THAT WILL BRING A CHRISTIAN TO THERE KNEES.
THREE THINGS THAT EVERY CHRISTIAN NEEDS.
I. A WORLD WEAKENED INTEGRITY
Dictionary.com Unabridged (v 1.1) - Cite This Source
in·teg·ri·ty
–noun 1. adherence to moral and ethical principles; soundness of moral character; honesty.
2. the state of being whole, entire, or undiminished: to preserve the integrity of the empire.
3. a sound, unimpaired, or perfect condition: the integrity of a ship's hull.
I. SOLUTION – A WORD STRENGTHENED INTEGRITY
II. A PROMINENT PREVAILING APATHY
American Heritage Dictionary - Cite This Source
ap·a·thy
-noun 1. Lack of interest or concern, especially regarding matters of general importance or appeal; indifference.
2. Lack of emotion or feeling; impassiveness.
II. SOLUTION – A CHRIST HONORING FERVOR
III. A MISDIRECTED MISINFORMED ZEAL
Dictionary.com Unabridged (v 1.1) - Cite This Source
zeal /zil/
–noun fervor for a person, cause, or object; eager desire or endeavor; enthusiastic diligence; ardor.
III. SOLUTION – A REVIVED REDIRECTED DEVOTION
If this is not needed in your personal life and walk, then Praise the Lord. If any are lacking, then Pray to the Lord.
jmo wrote:
"BTW, I think that David is the most positive decision made in a long time."
I suppose compared to, among other things, harboring a confessed pedophile for 7 months, it was.
And that's why it difficult for you guys to find support amoung the majority. You are being divisive and not working within the system.
And exactly what "system" would that be?
So what is good for Wednesdy night is not so good for Sunday night, nor recourse amongst the congregation. Now I get it.
So, in your opinion, you'd call that congregationally approved.
Sure. Neverland.
AOG, the same system that has been in existence since I've been a member. Those who are active in the church and are involved can figure it out. But an attitude of divisiveness doesn't generally get you on committees. I notice that not many people on this board know on a personal basis the lay leadership in our church. These people are not hard to get to know but you've gotta be involved to get to know them. Just being in a BFC and going into the sanctuary will not provide you the opportunity.
new bbc open forum....just how many times you gonna throw that same stone. I don't guess that you can get beyond it. By the way...7 months???
Dr. Gaines made a major mistake. He had admitted that he had erred. He asked the church's forgiveness. Can we get beyond this?
I've certainly made some big mistakes in my life. But I have a loving God who can forgive all my sins.
jmo,
You still haven't described the system..you just said it's the same system..which is?
There is a big difference between Dr. Rogers and the SBC and our situation. He was allowed to speak to all members. We have tried to "work the system" as you say - Biblically - and the powers that be have decided that some of our membership is not allowed to hear what some have had to say. The point was, that what Dr. Rogers had to say brought division, and according to the message last night, anyone who causes division within the body is not Spirit-filled. Again I ask you, what should our next step be - to be more appropriate, I mean.
Yes, God DOES forgive all of our sins, and that is wonderful! Are you a pastor? The qualifications in Scripture are quite clear - "an overseer is to be above reproach. . ." Titus 1:7
JMO said:
First of all you do not know the salary of our pastor.
Piglet says:
Does the name Craig Parker ring a bell?
Truth or Lie?-don't you grow weary covering this same ground over and over and over and....
JMO said:
Secondly, the Bible speaks to how we honor the labor of a pastor.
Timothy 5: 17 Let the elders that rule well be counted worthy of double honour, especially they who labour in the word and doctrine. 18 For the scripture saith, Thou shalt not muzzle the ox that treadeth out the corn. And, The labourer is worthy of his reward.
Piglet says:
Gaines should be ashamed to cash his paycheck and I'll just leave it at that.
JMO said:
By the way, did you question the salary of Dr. Rogers?
Piglet says:
No. I didn't question Dr. Gaines until Craig Parker let us know it was so much higher than Dr. Rogers' salary at the time of his RETIREMENT. Dr. Gaines comes in wet behind the ears making so much more? How arrogant. What delusions of grandeur.
“especially they who labour in the word and doctrine.”
With all due respect, in today’s world very few pastors ‘labour in the word and doctrine’…instead, they buy their sermons on the internet from the likes of Ed Young, Jr., Rick Warren, and others who eagerly sell sermons and pad their pockets. So, to say that “Secondly, the Bible speaks to how we honor the labor of a pastor” might prove to be a bit of a problem in being able to run down just who it is we need to pay honor to? Just speaking for myself, I have been to church and then watch sermons within close proximity via television and hear the same sermons preached…even down to the jokes and stories. It is plagiarism in its finest form. If not for the seriousness of it, it might even be comical…but far from it in that it is unbiblical. It is pathetic.
I am including an article which appeared on the front of the Wall Street Journal in November, 2006, written by religious journalist, Suzanne Sataline about this subject, which you will find interesting. You will find it here .
I continue in prayer for Bellevue.
JMO said:
AOG, the same system that has been in existence since I've been a member. Those who are active in the church and are involved can figure it out. But an attitude of divisiveness doesn't generally get you on committees. I notice that not many people on this board know on a personal basis the lay leadership in our church. These people are not hard to get to know but you've gotta be involved to get to know them. Just being in a BFC and going into the sanctuary will not provide you the opportunity.
Piglet says:
Is this regarding the churchwide meeting we have been denied and denied and denied and....
Just my opinion said...
"I've certainly made some big mistakes in my life. But I have a loving God who can forgive all my sins."
7:22 PM, February 26, 2007
********
And, at that particular time in your life, please tell me, what church were you pastoring and did they involve a violation of the written laws of your community? Was it written of in the local newspapers as a testimony to the Christ-likeness of your church, pray tell?
Dee
JMO said:
“especially they who labour in the word and doctrine.”
Piglet says:
I'm sure Gaines has a filefullof sermons preached at Gardendale and West Jackson. Even if he does prepare his own, he wouldn't have to do it for quite some time....
Piglet said in response to JMO's question...
"No. I didn't question Dr. Gaines until Craig Parker let us know it was so much higher than Dr. Rogers' salary at the time of his RETIREMENT. Dr. Gaines comes in wet behind the ears making so much more? How arrogant. What delusions of grandeur."
7:42 PM, February 26, 2007
*******
This statement you made about the salary of Dr. Rogers at retirement and the larger starting salary of Dr. Gaines made me realize in part one of the reasons SG doesn't want the memory of Dr. Rogers around. IT HAUNTS HIM AND IT IS A SHAME AND A DISGRACE. Lord, have mercy.
Dee
Just My Opinion (Roger)said...
Sorry I must have missed the point where Dr. Rogers withheld our SBC funding, didn't show up at the conventions, wrote letters filled with innuendos and untruths, and publicly criticized the SBC. Did I miss something? No, Dr. Rogers worked the system, went out and got the votes, rallied supporters to his beliefs and took it to the floor of the convention. Don't think that compares at all. And that's why it difficult for you guys to find support amoung the majority. You are being divisive and not working within the system.
6:32 PM, February 26, 2007
JMO,
The System?
The system is that these men will only meet with or respond to the "sheep" if they deam it important enough...or if there will not be too much outburst on the blog about it. None of your above mentioned actions would have been taken had our leadership shown leadership. People are doing what they/we feel will express our voice.
Remember, change at GBC came due to "financial strangulation" as stated by their pastor. It was their venue/voice.
Everyone has agreed the best way to handle this situation, the most Godly way to handle this situation, the right way to handle this situation:
A. Have a church wide meeting
B. Have a Business Meeting.
Unfortunately, those who hold the keys have locked the doors. Then, they have the gall to deny based on the fact that we do not understand spiritual things. They do not have to talk with the wounded sheep, because if we weren't spiritually dead, we would understand.
The best thing to do would have been for us to go start another fellowship with BBC's blessing. That was not offered b/c it was considered divisive. You see, BBC wanted us all to leave, but just not all at the same time (it's about the money). Then they said if you don't like it, leave (just not as a group). Now, Someone echoed Roger Strubles remarks (or his own remarks) today regarding Second Baptist Church. I do not understand the wisdom putting down other churches in the area or bringing them into this.
One difference I see is that we are calling for a higher standard not a more liberal or lower standard.
There is a pattern at BBC of hiding the full truth. There is a pattern at BBC of back room meetings. There is a pattern of hidden committee's, sub-committe's, and groups. There is a line of leadership wanna be's that are out defending undefendable actions and taking up offenses.
Dr Rogers did not need politics, he had the Word of God and the floor of the convention. We have the word of God, but we have been denied the platform. BBC has made it clear that platform will never be available.
Why? I beleive that you know in your heart the answer to this.
As long as no one admits anything, it is a "rumor". I do not believe that an allegation is a rumor, but it helps the BBC cause to label us as spreading rumors. If in fact it is proven outside of the elite group, it becomes a "mistake", never sin. You don't have to repent or be broken over mistakes.
Only those who bring up concerns are deemed to be rumor mongers and sinners, unable to understand spiritual things.
John Caldwell has NEVER apologized for climbing Mark Sharpes fence.
Is John Caldwell harboring sin or a mistake? Or was Steve Gaines, Chuck Taylor, and Mark D wrong to apologize because they did nothing wrong?
Do you know that Diane Daugherty has said that Mark D's only regret is "that they did not pray before they went to Mark Sharpes house"? I was floored! We were told they were in a prayer meeting. How can you have a prayer meeting and not pray?
Do you realize that there was another man who was supposed to have gone "in love" with the group. 5 men to go see a "brother, in love"?
The problem is that we have an immature pastor who we thought was surrounded by mature men. This is not name calling, but some of their own words. I am sure many would consider me immature. These are not the actions of mature men.
Everyone can argue until the cows come home.
The facts:
-We have been lied to as a congregation.
-The wheels of change were being planned before Dr Rogers ever left BBC.
-There is not brokeness at BBC (how can there be? They have only made mistakes, there has been no sin)
-BBC has called out church members but has not given them the opportunity to respond.
-BBC has no intent in having a church business meeting (even though we all agree it is the proper way to handle things)
-SG and his round table group have had the ability from the beginning to handle this properly and have refused. They hold the microphone and they will not give it up, period.
-BBC dies not follow what procedure they agree that we have. Example: committee on committees, church business meetings.
Who can deny these things?
Chuck Taylor said a year ago...
"Look at all the people. Can God be displeased? Look at the tithes, we are 30% ahead. Can God be displeased?"
Is this still the gauge at BBC of God's pleasure?
Well?
PS- This post includes only truthful statements of first hand information, not allegations
Sickofthelies asked...
Driving past BBC around 12:30 PM today, the channel 3 news truck was out front, near the entrance, with the cameraman aiming the camera at the " welcome to BBC" sign.
Don't know what this means. Are they doing a story?
2:53 PM, February 26, 2007
*******
Channel 3 had a piece on the news at 4 PM about David Brown's (SNAP) having asked the SBC in Nashville to adopt a zero tolerance stance on child molesters in the SBC. David told of how many new and old cases had occurred in the SBC. The newscaster then sounded over (with the view of Bellevue in the background) about how BBC allowed a confessed child molester to roam its halls for months and how unsafe a situation it presents.
Amy Speropolous then said that News Channel 3 realized that there are two sides to every story and that the other side would be presented at 6 PM.
This is all to the best of my memory. I was cooking and listening and didn't even know it was going to be on the broadcast.
"I've certainly made some big mistakes in my life. But I have a loving God who can forgive all my sins. "
Two very important steps left out: Repentance and sanctification.
"Dr. Gaines made a major mistake. He had admitted that he had erred. He asked the church's forgiveness. Can we get beyond this?"
A mistake? It is called sin. A pastor (with 20+years experience) willfully ignored scriptural guidelines for an elder for 6 or 7 months. And ignored scriptural guidelines for the sexually immoral in 1 Corinthians 5.
But...he erred. Just a mistake. The Bible is not that big of deal...we are making too big of a deal out of the Word of God. Silly us.
My goodness...
I have been away from the blog today.
Truthseekers, stay in the Word, ok? 25+ gave us all a great reminder earlier today when he quoted from John 9.
John 9.39-41
39 Jesus said, "For judgment I came into this world, that those who do not see may see, and those who see may become blind." 40 Some of the Pharisees near him heard these things, and said to him, "Are we also blind?" 41 Jesus said to them, "If you were blind, you would have no guilt; but now that you say, 'We see,' your guilt remains.
The book of Proverbs has a lot to say about those who mock. Check it out.
Yes, and what of the vote? Congregationally approved? You cannot answer because it's a sham.
And the signifier negative is as empty a signifier in response to an argument. I have a negative attitude toward pedophiles or those that wold protect them; I have a negative attitude towards dumb rhetoric and sanctimony.
Let me put it this way--why are you evangelicals so negative when it comes to homosexuality?
Justify, justify, but it is you people that have killed your church. Unity above all considerations is the doorway to accepting a spiritual lobotomy.
When I think of the cruelty to these hurting people, I'm nauseated. You've seemingly lost your soul for loyalty without question.
Was Martin Luther divisive? Oops, there goes your founding doctrine.
If you support the new Rev. CEO, you must kow tow to the PCIR; and your silence, my friends, indicts more than any voices on this blog.
I offer you a lotus, a symbol of compassion. Such grasping justifications warrant it.
"Timothy 5: 17 Let the elders that rule well be counted worthy of double honour, especially they who labour in the word and doctrine. 18 For the scripture saith, Thou shalt not muzzle the ox that treadeth out the corn. And, The labourer is worthy of his reward."
Folks this scripture is about the fact that elders who were teaching were NOT getting paid anything.
That is a far cry for the 300,00-500,000 Gaines is getting paid. And he does not have to word on Wed nights! Nice work if you can con someone into paying for it.
The sermon Sunday night was not worth a dime because it twisted my Lord's Word.
Dee, I am here and just wanted to say, it is not a big deal...that mistake about a pastor named Gaines ignoring the Scriptures...
You see, God only called it the 'Sword of Truth. No biggie
Oh and Dee, one more thing...Revelations shows us that when Jesus comes back riding on the clouds He will have the "Sword" in His mouth. That is how not a big deal this ignoring scripture for a pastor really is. NO biggie at all. Just a mistake. NO problem that all those sheep saw him ignore it. He said, "sorry".
LibertyinChrist said...
"My heart-felt commendation to Don's 1:05 AM, February 26, 2007 post. I read it to Bear Frankson who was driven off public property by PDC pastor Lee McFarland near Phoenix, AZ and then had to go to court to defend himself. Bear responded with an invitation to Don to come out to Phoenix to join him in pickets in front of Purpose-Driven Churches and handing out materials exposing Warren's apostate teachings. We need more warriors like Don! God Bless him!!! Maybe he will join you all and stand in front of BBC!"
10:19 AM, February 26, 2007
********
Great news and great idea!
Don, your post was wonderful.
Collin Houseal, yours appeared right before Don's and was also great.
If y'all didn't read those two posts, go back and read them. They look at things a bit differently and, I must say, very accurately.
Thanks again, to you Don and Collin.
Dee (Still catching up)
New BBC Open Forum,
I call on you to ban
JUSY MY OPINION from posting again for the sake of promoting unity on this blog. Many people from around the country are looking on.
Like ACE, he is inflamatory and adds nothing but hate disguised as sarcasm to this blog. The following post represents all that he/she is about. This person is like the apostate church that cares nothing about truth.
Here is the post I'm speaking of:
Just My Opinion said...
I was at Costco the other day behind a women who had separated her purchases. One was pastries and two cakes. The other purchase was a carton of cigarettes. I guess she felt the need to explain to me a waiting customer why she had to make two purchases.
"Well," she started, "one is for our youth at church (food I assumed) and the other is for me. I didn't want to show the cigarettes on the ticket. I know that I shouldn't even be buying cigarettes at all. Especially using the church's Costco card. We are all human though and I'm the pastor's wife. I know I shouldn't smoke, but I do."
I figured you guys would love to have this story. I am sure that someway you can compare it to Bellevue and get some mileage out of it. Let's see, co-mingling of funds, causing others to stumble, sin of the flesh...well you guys are better at this than I.
Probably before the days over someone will be telling this story and it will be Donna Gaines in place of this unnamed women, maybe beer in place of cigarette, and the location may change to Sam's. But as I said you guys are better than me on storytelling anyway!
8:54 AM, February 26, 2007
Sorry Guys, I am being absurd to model the absurdity of some of the excuses for Gaines ignorning scripture. He, a pastor and all.
"I call on you to ban
JUSY MY OPINION from posting again for the sake of promoting unity on this blog. Many people from around the country are looking on."
Good idea. You can be the David Coombs of the blog and decide who gets to comment or not.
Ima,
Amazing information on the, **let me buy a sermon.**
Some facts to ponder:
1. Steve Gaines made it a very strong point in the pulpit some time ago that it was wrong to use other's materials, he'd never do that. (of course stronger words were used, don't remember the exact ones.)
2. SG has a stated in the pulpit he was a friend of Sam Shaws, the pastor of Germantown Baptist when the great divide came.
3. SG & Sam Shaw were on the same Paul's Journey trip a few years ago.
4. Sam Shaw used printed outlines of sermons like SG uses.
5. SG mentioned in the pulpit on Sunday morning he had been talking with Sam Shaw that week and asked what he was preaching on Sunday, they were preaching on the same thing..
6. SG mentioned his secretary Linda was very happy when she found out SG types his own sermons
Some food for thought in view of Ima's informational post of 7:46 pm 2/26/07. Some pretty interesting information of buying sermons.
If I ever return to BBC, which I doubt I'll ever darken its corrupt doors ever, I'll wear a patch on one eye in honor of the Gaines/Coombs sycophants.
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