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177 comments:
So DC is going to be ordained the 25th?...isn't that the horse coming after the cart?..funny, but I thought you always ordained someone first, then they went into ministry and carried the title of pastor.
This is again another beautiful and glorious day that our Father and LORD Jesus has made!!! Let us rejoice and be glad!!!
Oh, the Majesty of Jesus!
Sincerely in The LORD and ONLY Savior Jesus Christ,
Stephen and Bonita Ann Richie
Living Hope In Jesus
www.livinghopeinjesus.com
Actually, it is not always the case that someone is ordained prior to entering ministry. Each church does it differently, but many churches only ordain individuals after they have entered ministry.
Lily said...
Noticed that DC is being ordained on February 25th. Interesting
Once again we see the leadership playing catch up in this controversy. Is this what happened?...
VIP#1 "Hey we're being criticised on the blog because the DC isn't ordained."
VIP#2 "I've got a great idea. Let's get a group of ministers and ordain him. That way no one will be able to comlain he's not a minister."
Ta dah, end of controversy. Now its time to move on and be about the business of the church. Instead of doing the right thing in the first place they react and attempt inept damage control.
What qualifications must one have to ordained as a minister? No training necessary...any businessman who is tapped to "help" in a crisis? Does DC have any pastoral training at all? If Steve Gaines were to resign, would DC be next in line? Or is it MD? Seems that the ordination of DC is nothing more than putting a "pastor" stamp on the forehead of a CEO.
Do you get the opinion that SG sticks his finger in the wind every morning and adjusts his day accordingly? Two weeks ago on Sunday morning he greeted the visitors and described the new visitor bags. He stated that he'd been told he should call the contents "gifts," not "prizes." I admit the "prize" thing always made me cringe a little, but it's certainly not important. However, there has been the occasional comment about it here.
Now after reading a discussion questioning why David Coombs has the title of Administrative Pastor but isn't ordained, now we learn David Coombs is going to be ordained. Perhaps this was planned a long time ago, but the timing of the announcement is... interesting.
What is the threat in being secretly taped if one is living in The Light of The LORD Jesus and His Truth and practicing truth? After all, JESUS is silently listening to it all.
Something to prayerfully think about.
Sincerely in The LORD and ONLY Savior Jesus Christ,
Stephen and Bonita Ann Richie
Living Hope In Jesus
www.livinghopeinjesus.com
I think the fact of the matter is this blog has a lot more impact than any of the people in the church care to believe. And iwtk, as for Josh's recording of that conversation, consider that since we here know that this blog has produced tangible results in the church due to the discussions that happen here that the Lord may be using Josh's recording as another means to expose the hypocrisy and blatant disregard for the law in BBC's leadership.
iwtk wrote:
"God can remove SG, but it will be in His time and in His way."
For at least the 100th time, my goal or the stated goal of IDC is not to remove Steve Gaines! It's not about a man. All we're asking for is honesty, integrity, transparency, and accountability in our church leadership. The only things that makes any of us are anti-dishonesty, anti-lack-of-integrity, anti-lack-of-transparency (i.e. the veil of secrecy), and anti-lack-of-accountability. Do you see any names in that sentence?
It's interesting that some are appealing to an Argument from Contradition: they say I violated my own principle because my actions didn't comport with the definition of "transparency."
Unfortunately that argument is a straw man. I say this because it fails to make a certain distinction--namely that the "transparency" I and others are working for is transparency required under man's law (§48-66-102), God's law (Rom 12:17), and reason.
The "transparency" I allegedly transgressed does not actually exist under man's law, God's law, or reason (as seen in my 10:25pm post above)--except for the use of the Golden Rule which is subject to obvious exceptions. I pointed out some of those exceptions before, but here's another set of examples for the skeptical out there:
I Kings 20:35-43, 2 Kings 6:13-23, 2 Kings, 5:25-27, and 2 Samuel 12.
In each of these cases the protagonists knew something that would be damning to someone else, and chose not to be transparent about it (usually to further catch the person breaking his own code or lying). It is difficult to conclude two things from the above examples:
1) That the protagonists would condemn their own actions and simultaneously approve a refusal to release documents as obligated by man's law, God's law, and reason.
2) That the protagonists would accept their own actions and simultaneously approve a refusal to release documents as required by man's law, God's law, and reason.
Most of you objectors fall into one of those two camps. You might want to think about deserting.
In summary, it would be difficult to argue that the men at the center of the above examples would EVER think their actions were condemnable like the actions of those who refuse to release financial information as required under law. That dog just won't hunt.
I think it's very interesting that some of you are so critical of Josh for recording his personal conversation with someone, trying hard to find fault with him, and completely ignoring the fact that David Coombs, soon to be an ordained minister of the gospel. "bore false witness" against "his neighbor". Correct me if I'm wrong, but I could not find one single passage of scripture that says it's a sin to record your personal conversation, yet all kinds of scripture about how it's a sin to not be truthful. Doesn't the Bible teach in it's qualifications of an elder something about being honest and blameless? Does David Coombs meet this? The evidence is there for the world to see and judge.
I told a friend of mine that if Steve Gaines had been the person in the situation that Ted Haggard had been in, there would have been more people angry at the person that exposed the sin than angry that he had committed the sin. That person scoffed at me.
To you I say look at this. People ARE more angry that Josh exposed David Coombs for being a liar than they are at "Pastor Coombs" for being a liar.
At least in the beginning, "People" were more upset with the victim bringing attention to PW"s sin than they were at PW for committing it.
I repeat, this was all predicted in Romans Chapter 1. Read it.
I just want to emphasis, until David Coombs shows repentance and humility and apolgises to Josh Manning for 1) His disrespectful treatment and 2)Lieing to the entire city via the Commercial Appeal, He does not meet the qualifications of an ordained minister, and may God have mercy on the ordination council members that recommend his ordination to the church, if they completely ignore this. It will show this life long Southern Baptist that we have become just as empty and shallow as the Catholic Church and other mainline Protestants.
And we wonder why the Morman church is full of former Southern Baptists, and "They" have the gall to accuse Mark Sharpe, Josh Manning and Jim Haywood that they are sending people to hell.
The hypocrisy makes me want to hurl.
IWTK,
While the Colbertian "knowing something in your heart" can sway each of us personally, it doesn't make for good reasoning at all. As for word counts, if length is negative (which admittedly it often is) let's throw out most systematic theology books at MABTS since we just know that God is omnipotent and omniscient, gracious and merciful. Also, most of Dr Rogers sermons could have done without all of those supporting points anyway. Gotta toss them too. =)
You fail to rebut any argument in defense of recording. Instead You say two things: 1) You would never do such a thing (appealing to your own moral standard, not an outside source) and 2) Had such a thing been done to me I'd have run to the press.
Ok, regarding 1) It's perfectly fine if you wouldn't do such a thing. What isn't of faith is sin, and I certainly won't condemn you there. But don't judge others by what God has revealed to you specifically (Rom 14). But if you must, then in Paul's words, "It is a small thing that you judge me." Also, if you judge me, judge rightly--Scripture NOWHERE condemns my actions in principal or (of course) practice.
Re 2) So you're saying I would have done the same thing I did anyway? Maybe, but regardless, what is going to the press a barometer of? Or better, how is it condemnable? Is it Sin? Goodness? I would be more than happy for David Coombs and Dr Gaines to both go to the press. I think it would possibly help things.
Guys, a word needs to be said here about reason versus feeling.
John Adams once said, "Facts are stubborn things; and whatever may be our wishes, our inclinations, or the dictates of our passion, they cannot alter the state of facts and evidence."
What he meant is that no matter what we wish things "were" those wishes can never alter what things "are." That is to say, simply calling something "wrong" doesn't make it wrong.
An example: If I say that anyone who mows his law on Tuesday is wrong, does my simply saying that make him wrong? Do I have the moral authority to say such a thing is wrong? Of course not. I have to appeal to a source or reason.
What if I say, "Anyone who mows his lawn on Tuesday is wrong because I know beyond a shadow of a doubt that it is wrong for me to mow my law on Tuesday." Well, that doesn't pass the test either, because it is simply my opinion that mowing on Tuesdays is wrong.
Now here's the logic gap. Somehow folks are saying that because they wouldn't do something, no one else should do it. The only problem is that "should" statements we apply to ourselves don't require an outside source. But the moment we apply a "should" statement to someone else, we must have something outside our own opinions to back it up. Romans 14:3-5
Facts are pesky things. Just calling something by a name doesn't make that something what you call it.
Again, Romans 14:3-5
Dear Finance Guy,
You sure said it right, Brother. You sure did say it right.
You didn't cut any slack and that is EXACTLY how GOD deals with us...in TRUTH and in love.
Can we really expect any more than compromise and applause of compromisers from the last days Laodecean Church age? If God's Truth is rejected by choice....well, you said it, Brother....the judgement by God of such an one is found in Romans chapter one.
Thank you for your post.
Sincerely in The LORD and ONLY Savior Jesus Christ,
Stephen and Bonita Ann Richie
Living Hope In Jesus
www.livinghopeinjesus.com
This morning someone gave me a name for this phenomenon of "attacking the person who reveals the sin rather than the sin itself due to 'man worship' of the sinner".
I will call this the "Clinton Syndrome". Those who have been around know what I mean. Those who don't, I'm sorry, but you will have do your own research on the character and life of Bill Clinton.
So DC is going to be ordained the 25th?...isn't that the horse coming after the cart?..funny, but I thought you always ordained someone first, then they went into ministry and carried the title of pastor.
That's what ya get for thinkin'
:)
I have been taking a break from the blog for a while. However, I was made aware that there are some who seem to be hung up on Josh recording a conversation he had with David Coombs. Personally, I think it was a great idea for him to have done this! Otherwise, there would be those who would say that “he (DC) never would have said that” or “that’s just what Josh thinks he heard” or whatever. This is no game. There is an integrity issue within the leadership of our church.
Also, as many are probably aware, the phone system at BBC is capable of recording ANY conversation with the press of a button. Yes – you got it! If somebody in the BBC offices is talking to you via phone, all they have to do is press a button, and the phone conversation is recorded. And…gasp…the BBC employee does not even have to tell you that they are recording the conversation! This is fact.
We all need to chill out and become broken over our own sin.
I have seen this a few times, so I wanted to address it.
Who among the "truth seekers" (insert pet label here) is not broken over our own sin? I don't think anyone is claiming perfection here or that we have never sinned. But if you use this logic, then evidently the apostle Paul and even Peter and John must not have been broken over their own sin either because they have some pretty harsh sounding judgments in their epistles.
I agree with you if there are people on here judging and yet proclaiming their own righteousness, but I don't think we should be so quick to lump a group of people into that category if they don't need to be there.
1 John 1.10
If we say we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.
finance guy said,
"It will show this life long Southern Baptist that we have become just as empty and shallow as the Catholic Church and other mainline Protestants."
This, in my opinion, is the root of the problem we are now facing. Have you taken a look at the books Lifeway now offers by the new age, emergent, lesbian/gay community, church growth movements, etc. lately? Have you taken a close look at what SBC promotes lately?
It is as far from Christianity as one can possibly get.
Thing is...it is not going to introduce itself to you. You are going to have to take the time to research this and learn what is going on yourself. And you need to be in the Word...grounded, to be able to recognize it.
I pray God will bring people to their knees.
What is the threat in being secretly taped if one is living in The Light of The LORD Jesus and His Truth and practicing truth? After all, JESUS is silently listening to it all.
Yes, exactly. People who have nothing to hide should not be concerned about this.
I would add that not only is Jesus listening, He won't be silent about what He hears.
I told a friend of mine that if Steve Gaines had been the person in the situation that Ted Haggard had been in, there would have been more people angry at the person that exposed the sin than angry that he had committed the sin. That person scoffed at me.
My understanding what that this indeed happened in that church - there were a group of people angry with the person who exposed Haggard's behavior and defending Haggard even after his "confession." Interesting point.
iwtk said
If Gaines, DC, MD or anyone else would have recorded you without your knowledge, Jimmy Haywood, Coggins, Green, Saba, or any of the others, would have sent Certified letters, filed lawsuits, ran to TV stations for interviews (liked your tie), wrote letters to the editor and started whining beyond belief. Mark Sharpe would have been resurrected (again) for his opinion.
Piglet says:
Where is your outrage that the law has been broken FOUR times by our pastor and leadership?
Josh was within the law. Beyond that, it is just your opinion.
And how can you presume to know what any of the people you named would do in a hypothetical situation? It is apparent that SOMEBODY is well versed in the law and concerned about obeying it. And that somebody is NOT the current BBC leadership.
Sorry, be patient, to be lumping folks together under the term "leadership" but if we DO have any law abiding, Christ loving leaders, that have convictions, principles, and any guts they would stop supporting the status quo and speak up, for heaven's sake!
Too many people covering their own fannies...
This morning someone gave me a name for this phenomenon of "attacking the person who reveals the sin rather than the sin itself due to 'man worship' of the sinner".
Also known as an ad hominem attack :)
"replying to an argument by attacking or appealing to the person making the argument, rather than by addressing the substance of the argument... of criticizing or personally attacking an argument's proponent in an attempt to discredit that argument."
formerbellevuemember
Bob Sorrell was a business man. Under Dr. Rogers, he handled the business end and was never "next in line" to be pastor.
I'm not sure if he was ever ordained. This is strange to me also, that an associate pastor be, primarily, a business man but it didn't start with Steve Gaines.
Somebody correct me if I'm wrong.
let me just help clear us some of the discussion on ordination, at least in SBC churchs.
First, a church's ordination council is completely free to decide who is ordained or not, and what the qualifications are. It is in-effect a character judgment, as well as a public acknowledgment that this person is a Christian in the sense that a Southern Baptist would recognize, and that he is in fact, called to ministry. Usually this happens by a members home church before he (or now in some cases she) goes to serve at a sister church. The ordination should be made by a congregation that knows the person intimately, and Southern Baptist all over the world trust the ordination council to seek out the person being ordained, and put enormous trust in this group of men.
Having said that, many people can and do serve in ministry, sometimes for years, without being ordained. Jamie Parker was on staff at Bellevue for years as the "assistant music minister" without being ordained. If my memory serves, he was ordained right before he went to Gardendale.
In all honesty, ordination is more of a legal determination. This means you can legally perform weddings, and most churches will not let you perform ministerial functions such as weddings, funerals, baptisms, Lords Supper and other church ordinances without the cloak of ordination.
I really don't think you can find fault with the method and timing of David Coombs being ordained.
You can however find serious problems with the character of the man being ordained.
David Coombs is known as being heavy handed and authoritative and very prideful in his business dealings. He also has been know (as has been already pointed out on this and Haywoods website) that he has some unhealthy views of women, and reportedly does not treat his family kindly.
How is his family life relevant you ask? Only because the Bible says it is in ordaining a minister.
David Coombs does not meet the Biblical requirements of a minister. However he does meet the Purpose Driven requirements of a minister (Wealthy, Proven Administrator, etc). That's all that really matters right?
At this point, Bellevue's prohibitions on serving as deacons and ministers men who have been divorced, smoke, drink or commit adultery seems kind phony.
Reminds me of the passage in the Bible where Israel wanted a King, even though God wanted something different for them. He gave them a King didn't he?
This is were you are Bellevue. Hope it's the path you wanted.
socwork wrote:
"Also known as an ad hominem attack"
Or "shooting the messenger."
NASS,
Thanks for all the time you put into this blog - I'm sure it gets monotonous at times (especially when the need for comment moderation is introduced). I know we're keeping you busy!
"Also known as an ad hominem attack"
Or "shooting the messenger."
LOL - yes, I think "ad hominem" is actually Latin for "shooting the messenger." Ok, maybe not.
25+yrs@BBC said...
All of the discussion boils down to this in my opinion:
Steve Gaines is disqualified. He is no longer "blameless." That
qualification does not require a pastor to be sinless, but it does require them not to have been involved in something that causes their witness to be impugned either from within the church or from the viewpoint of the lost
world.
I agree with 25+ years that Steve Gaines is disqualified. He is also, by his own admission, a liar.
David Coombs is also a proven liar.
Question - When has anyone ever heard of a Senior Pastor liar ordaining an Administrative Pastor liar?
Another question - Are we seeing the future of Bellevue Baptist Church here?
piglet,
Bob Sorrell being the Associate Pastor is a long complicated story. I will say that Bob Sorrell exhibited more integrity and character in the however many years he was at Belleuve than DC has in the 4 weeks he's been on staff. You may not have liked BS, but you had to respect him.
On that note, I will say from what I understand, Bellevue needed what BS brought in the beginning. It needed organization and restructure of operational process. You should not have to go to the Finance Committee every-time you need a pencil.
Having said that, I think it's become clear that we have swung too far the other direction. Bellevue Baptist is not a business, yet it seems to be run like "Bellevue Inc.". We are indanger of becoming an organization that just happens to be a church, rather than the other way around.
Again,
JMHO
Finance Guy
I totally agree.
Bob Sorrell was VERY good at what he did and has been a tremendous help to GBC. I never disliked him at all and he was very personable.
I also agree that BBC has become increasingly more like a business and some of our leaders more like executives than humble men of God.
Also, I was there last Sunday night, in particular after the service had ended. As a refresher, there was a lady who talked to David Coombs for a few moments. He laughed at her for the comments she made about pedophilia thriving in silence. She walked away crying.
Then, less than 10 minutes later, she went back to DC. This time she was accompanied by a man who had witnessed the conversation, the laughing by DC, and the crying by the lady. David Coombs then denied he had even talked with her that evening. Amazingly, this time span was less than 10 minutes!
I submit to all that had these conversations been recorded and made available for all to hear, many would have had the opportunity to hear the lack of respect and concern from DC with their own ears. Many would have then been able to hear the denials and tone of voice with their own ears. Of course, there would still be some who would crinkle their brows, shake their heads, and say “goodness, that was so wrong to record those conversations.”
Was it an integrity issue from DC? He blatantly denied even having a conversation with somebody in less than a 10 minute period of time AFTER the initial conversation.
Ok…then let’s cut him some slack. Perhaps it could be a medical issue. Those of us present last Sunday evening should have called 911 for immediate medical assistance for DC. Yes, it was our fault…not his. Shame on us for having the audacity to pose questions to our leadership. I mean, maybe DC had a memory lapse or something!
Oops…am I typing something? Hello? Anybody home? Must…must…must not ask questions…say it with me…must not question…must swallow and follow…. I am sorry. I don’t know what just happened. I think I am ok now….
Don't forget "killing the canary."
;}
Greetings from the pureland,
I sent Sir Telos an email 3 days ago, after my poorly written comment insinuated, in his reception, some contempt for the Holy Bible. In light of the battles waged here since the airing of the report, I share it with you:
I really don't think I've had the intention of disparaging the Bible in any way in communications to those who regard it as scripture. Someone said I was blasphemous, but I object to those who, insisting that it is the literal word of God, would treat it so shabbily to self-serving ends. Dig?
Since it is my vocabulary, I don't regard my words, organization and locution as strange or pedantic, but on these threads, it is frequently commented upon. If one writes art criticism for newspapers and magazines, as I have for the better part of the decade, the need for condensed prose (in 800-1200 words) is to blame. Be that as it may, the uncareful reader might think I'm slamming the Bible. I'm not.
When I speak of common sense, in this matter of the pastor's error (regarding Williams only) and thus untrustworthy to function as such, checking the scripture for a rationale is tantamount to doing so approaching a stop sign--some veracities are germane, readily palpable. Now, the people that want to forgive and forget? They desperately need a scripture to back that up; and you know what? They'll pluck one or twist another to fit.
Then, setting commom sense aside, y'all have an unreconcilable deadlock; because, whom amongst you corners the market on the interpretation of scripture? As a theological question, ironically, it will be a draw--y'all will split. It is already, actually, since Gaines is still Pastor, as is the leadership that enabled this dysfunction, the wolves investigated the henhouse, and folks just want to move on or move away.
I don't think it does the Bible any insult to ask that its esteemed words not be trudged through the dungheap of fallow and short-sighted intentions. I mean, some of the arguments, pardon the expression, have been below contempt. This is the Bible as weapon, and that must grieve it's Author, no?
...
love, David
God tapes everything, Bellevue ministers and staff can with a touch of a phone button--but Josh is wrong to tape when he knows that the law has been broken? When he knows that it is legal to record? When he knows that many do not believe that the leadership of BBC has done anything wrong? Wake up BBC!
Repost:
All of the discussion boils down to this in my opinion:
Steve Gaines is disqualified. He is no longer "blameless." That qualification does not require a pastor to be sinless, but it does require them not to have been involved in something that causes their witness to be impugned either from within the church or from the viewpoint of the lost world.
1 Timothy 3:7 says, "Moreover he must have a good report of them which are without; lest he fall into reproach and the snare of the devil."
He is disqualified. There are far more than 2 or 3 witnesses: the church has split. There are thousands who understand this. Sadly, there are even more outside of Bellevue who see clearly about this. How much more damage will be allowed by the laymen who prop him up?
Gentlemen, put together some kind of package that will allow him to step aside--the sooner the better. Please don't wait until he is charged by the D.A. or until he makes some other error or until he finds you to be no longer useful. Whatever capital you have left--use it to preserve what is left of the fellowship of BBC.
This has been a train wreck. This is an ongoing tradgedy. Not only have long-time members of Bellevue left who will likely never come back, but the community will not soon forget this fiasco. Wake up!
If there is to be further meanness or retaliation toward members--Heaven is watching, the church family is watching, the community is watcing, the SBC is watching. Do right!
Each time leadership has stonewalled members who have called for Mt. 18 to be followed the audience has grown. That forum was denied over and over. In heaven the audience will be even larger than the one reading the Commercial Appeal. Fear God rather than man!
Jesus walks in the midst of his candlesticks and those whom He loves He rebukes. That is the response of love and that is what points toward repentance.
jmo
RE: DC to become an ordained minister.
LOL, Does anyone remember my post from a few days ago ( wed. maybe?) where I called D.C.'s office and asked his secretary if D.C. was an ordained minister?
Oh, by the way,
I also asked in that phone conversation, whether or not DC had ever gone to seminary.
Watch for him to be enrolled across the street soon.
:)
the lexicon on ordain:
kathistemi
1a) to set one over a thing (in charge of it)
1b) to appoint one to administer an office
1c) to set down as, constitute, to declare, show to be
Concerning the ordination of elders(elder is not just in age but in experience) or bishops (in the context, not much distinction); (give special attention to verses 7, 8, 9). This is not a PR position, but a position of ministering the gospel of grace, not in a novice manner, but in manner that will help set things in order in both doctrine and in practice; there is also the implication that he should be both ready and qualified to defend both the faith and doctrines from those who would do harm to it and attempt to pervert it, that is the gospel of grace and its accompanying doctrines. In its context, that is who the apostle is commending to be ordained.
Titus 1:5 ¶ For this cause left I thee in Crete, that thou shouldest set in order the things that are wanting, and ordain elders in every city, as I had appointed thee:
6 ¶ If any be blameless, the husband of one wife, having faithful children not accused of riot or unruly.
7 For a bishop must be blameless, as the steward of God; not selfwilled, not soon angry, not given to wine, no striker, not given to filthy lucre;
8 But a lover of hospitality, a lover of good men, sober, just, holy, temperate;
9 Holding fast the faithful word as he hath been taught, that he may be able by sound doctrine both to exhort and to convince the gainsayers.
10 For there are many unruly and vain talkers and deceivers, specially they of the circumcision:
11 Whose mouths must be stopped, who subvert whole houses, teaching things which they ought not, for filthy lucre’s sake.
I have read here many comments on PDC/PDL/CGM. As I’ve stated before, I have good friends in Christ, mature and godly believers, fully committed to the Lordship of Jesus and to the inerrancy and sufficiency of God’s Word, who are on very different sides when it comes to these (and other) things. Because of this, and because I suspect that most here do not know me or where I am coming from, generally refrain from taking a clear public position on most things discussed. Instead I prefer to provide general commentary of a more informational sort, and the occasional statement of admiration for things that seem to me to be particularly well stated. All that said, I am going to break with my tradition a bit to recommend tow interesting articles on “Church Growth” and “Seeker Sensitive” teachings. I found these on equip.com, the website of the Christian Research Institute, a ministry I admire for emphasizing biblical exposition and faithfulness to the major doctrines of the faith while taking a generally even-handed approach to less essential matters. I’d love to hear any thoughts on these articles from anyone who has the interest to read them.
When Communers Become Consumers:
Church-Growth Rules That Could Be Making Yours Sick
http://www.equip.org/free/DC248.htm
Pro and Con: The Seeker-Church Movement
http://www.equip.org/free/DC249.htm
Amos,the wisdom and beauty in the scriptures you post bless me.
SOTL,you inspire me...go girl!
Wish I knew you both personally.
iwtk,
Word count is no indicator of whether truth is present. Your criticism addresses nothing in Josh's post and your ire is misdirected. Where is your indignation that the Administrative Pastor of BBC 1) by his own words cares nothing for Tennessee law and 2) lied about it in print? It absolutely flabbergasts me that someone would ignore the larger issue here.
Piglet,
You should have mail. My first two attempts bounced.
"So let me get this right, as I have been absent for a while. Our Senior pastor (a proven lier) is going to ordain the assoc. pastor(a non ordained minister) David C. another proven lier.Meanwhile the defenders of the leadership ignore this and complain that members are taping their conversations with the two liers,and calling it dishonest.It amazes me that this is a Southern Baptist Church and not some little cultish church. Somebody help me!!!!
Hey, I don't know what all the hubbub is over David Coombs being ordained - so is Jessee Jackson! He has never been to seminary either:)
All2Jesus
I don't have any mail from you. :(
I sent you mail, though. :)
trucker,
welcome back!!!
You have been missed. :)
Good one Mom4! To continue with the same logic, why the hubbub over JM recording his conversation with DC. Was the FBI wrong to record their interactions with John Ford?
sickofthelies
Thanks it's good to be home.
Mom4
That's true about JJ, but he is not the assoc. pastor of BBC.
One difference between JJ anc DC, JJ loves to be recorded.
Piglet,
I tried again. Check your mail...
all2jesus
Success at last! :}
Sir Trollcates(David),
I read your 12:47 post. Your eloquence and artistry make me laugh. As we have discussed through email, I agree that many of us miss apply the scripture. However, I dont think we discourage people from going to scripture and rather have them depend on common sense. What is common is the world; Believe me, we are supposed to be different from the world. I think it was Dr. Rogers who said, "Most of us have a 4th grade understanding of the Bible and we try to apply it to an adult world." David, people are hurting. I would rather people go to the Bible and try to use it for as they miss apply it one day, God will eventually use it for His good. Moreover, more mature Christians can come along side and guide, edify or correct what is being misapplied and show the younger Christian how to interpret the Spirit that compels them to write, in a Biblical manner. Who holds the market on correct discernment? - time will illustrate as God makes His lessons know to each of us individually as we live out our lives. The truth is illuminated in a believer by the Holy Spirit. We may miss apply His word but those in the Spirit recognize his voice. Also, those in His Spirit will reflect the fruits listed in Galations chapter 5.
David, I heard of woman who had been raped and mugged. This same woman was in a crowded elevator and all got out except her and one other person. As the doors closed she felt this person come close up behind and she felt a sharp object press up against her neck. She froze and could not bear to think of what was going to happen next. The doors finally opened and she walked out unharmed. To her relief, she finally turned to find a blind man with a walking stick. Her reasoning, David, was based on antecedent or a prior understanding. David, the world traps and blinds us into false understandings.
As I wrote you David, Common sense in the world of a Christian is a slippery slope. I dont think there is anything Christian about allowing a Pastor to continue on once he has proved unworthy of his responsibilities. In my faith, the Bible is wiser than what is common.
Sir : ) Trollcates - I dig. The Bible stands on its own merits. Any discouragement, no matter how slight, to a believer to not seek the Bible will be met by me with protest every time. Yes, we miss apply, however, I dont pretend to understand what God has for each of us to understand. Experience has shown me that He is correct every time.
Blessings,
Telos
trucker said:
One difference between JJ anc DC, JJ loves to be recorded.
SOTL says:
LOL!!! that made me smile!!
good evening bloggers.
One Very Important Note:
When I say I laugh at trollcates eloquence and artistry - I say it out of respect. He is a very smart and sensitive man.
AOG - Hey. Your sense of humor, the other night, was priceless!
Some things have gotten clearer in the past few days:
1) The repercussions for bad staff decision-making are not as stiff as what one might have expected, unless there are additional censures forthcoming.
2) Character assassination is becoming a knee-jerk reaction from some of the "regulars."
3) Integrity really should begin at home.
4) Some folks are never, ever going to answer an e-mail from me.
5) Messrs. Sharpe, Manning, and Haywood are garnering personal notoriety at the expense of the rest of the church body.
5a) And before anyone says anything--it's a statement of fact, not a personal disparagement. My hope is that they do not realize the harm they do, and that they will refrain from further self-aggrandizing behavior.
6) Although we desperately need an open business meeting, antagonistic behavior does nothing to make one any more likely.
7) Which may, perhaps, be the idea in the minds of some. If we as a church work things out, then press forward in a spirit of mutuality to share the Gospel of Christ, there won't be so much about which some can be publicly outraged.
--Mike
Jim Haywood has taken some heat recently for sarcastically suggesting that David Coombs could be ordained for a mere $29.95 But when BBC runs him through their own ordination mill, will that make him any more qualified?
Bellevue does seem to be anti-seminary. We know at least on person on staff who was enrolled at MABTS and was convinced by BBC leadership to drop out and come on fulltime. He was told he'd get a seminary education just working at BBC.
telos,
believe it or not I can say something non-theological on occasion ;)
AOG,
Be careful - some have been known to record such things ;)
ok, so i'm confused.
Why would ANYONE go to seminary when they can just show up at BBC and get " ordained"?
It kinda reminds me of Reverend Ike. Does anyone remember the prayer cloths that he used to sell on TV?
Doesn't that just cheapen ordination into the ministry?
And, Mike Bratton, I have a question for you. How do you suggest we go about getting the powers that be to stop being so arrogant and secretive? How do we get them to obey the law? Are you honestly telling us that having leadershp that doesn't care what TN law says is ok with you? How do you square having no consequences for leaders like Jamie Fish? How do you square having no consequences for WW or SG? HOw do you ' look the other way' and worship in there? I cannot even allow myself to walk in the worship center. It's vile, and I feel violated when I enter the doors.
Ok, that was more than one question. I don't mean to be argumentative, and if I came across that way, allow me to apologize, but I really really want to know how you square all this and keep going, respecting those that have done everything possible to kill trust and respect.
WHAT would cause you to disrespect this group, if their accepting of pedophilia does not disgust you.Please do not say that they didn't accept it, we both know that PW would STILL be on staff today, being protected by the 3 "wise men" ( SG, JF, WW) if it had not been for a wise young man and his two friends.
WHERE is your line if THIS doesn't do it?
Folks I have an urgent prayer request. Some time back we had a poster here who went by the blogger name of "new prospect"...later, after moving back home to Louisanna, he posted as "gator jake"..he and I developed a friendship through email and my blog...a few weeks ago he started having severe headaches which eventually sent him to the doctor. Tests revealed that he had contracted west nile virus...but he also had some blood clots on his brain..they've been treating him with medication and he seemed to be responding well...I heard from him Tuesday, and he said he'd had several good days in a row. I had asked him when he found out about his condition to have someone he trusted to email me in the even he should become incapacitated or worse. I just received an email informing me that he's had a massive stroke and is unconcious and on a breathing machine. His name is Chad Jackson, age 35..this is a dear brother, and I'm fighting back tears..please for Chad.
aog,
we're praying!!!
I have just said a prayer and will continue to do so.
AOG...
Praying
junk99mail said,
" I’d love to hear any thoughts on these articles from anyone who has the interest to read them."
Okay, I have read these. They are good reads...thank you for sharing these articles. However, nothing for me has changed. Not that I thought this was your motive...I do not think that. If anything, I would be just as strong as ever in my beliefs that these church growth movements/purpose driven dribble is unbiblical. I especially like the one "Arguing with Success" by Douglas Groothuis. I printed that one out to keep. How anybody can fall for this stuff is truly beyond me. Romans 12:1-2 should be enough to shed light on this subject.
Now...let me add this. As with Bellevue, it is the phase of the purpose driven church movement known as transitioning that is the culprit in this instance. I have pleaded with people on this blog and elsewhere to read the book, Transitioning by Dan Southerland and endorsed by Rick Warren so they can see what is happening at Bellevue. Not to mention hundreds of other established churches. You see, it is difficult for these guys to build these churches; so they attempt to highjack them out from under you. How nice to come in and take a beautiful church, like Bellevue for instance, and transform it from a traditional church into a purpose driven church. Much more feasible. Not many of these pastors can go out and build a church to their liking without the financial backing they need; so they take yours. It is really that simple. And don't misunderstand me...I know without any doubt that most on here from Bellevue understand this; however, if there are those who do not, I pray they will learn from those of us who do understand this.
So, now I ask this of you and others. Please read this. It is a very informative link and very educational. I hope you can see from it the circumstances surrounding you now.
I have had emails coming in from several different states thanking me for posting the information from pastors.com because it opened the eyes of many to what was going on in their churches. And for others websites as well. It is my fervent prayer that scales will be removed from the eyes of those who have been uprooted from sound doctrine, or never knew it.
Everybody needs to evaluate these church growth movements biblically from being grounded in the Word. We must not, under any circumstance, compromise the Gospel.
Ima
I'm praying for you too, AOG.
Prayin' for GatorJake. Heartbreaking, AOG. Bless you.
AOG,
My husband and I will be in prayer for Chad.
Will ask for prayer for him tomorrow morning in my church.
Ima
this is something we can all agree about! LET'S PRAY!
Mike Bratton
My hope is that they do not realize the harm they do, and that they will refrain from further self-aggrandizing behavior.
I'll ignore all the obvious intellectual dishonesty and logical fallacies and just have a good laugh. Mike Bratton calling on people to avoid self aggrandizing behavior. Talk about the pot calling the kettle black!
Hahahahahaha.
Thanks for the giggle Big Mike.
Mike Bratton does not get it.
But then again, he approves supporting liberal churches that support abortion and gay rights....
Go figure.
A little sin never hurt anybody, right, Mike?
Let's slam Mark S., Josh M. and Jim H. for holding our leaders accountable. How dare they expect our leaders to respect bylaws and obey the law of the land!
If Mark, Josh, and Jim and all these troublemakers would just shut up, then this would all blow over and we could get back to happyland. What we don't know won't hurt us right?
Aog, I am praying for Chad that the God of all Comfort will sustain him. I have read some of his posts...he just posted last week, didn't he?
"Mike Bratton calling on people to avoid self aggrandizing behavior"
Mike is playing the old bait and switch 'blame game'. Blame the people who are asking for accountability to deflect attention. The Clintons were masters of this.
Is anyone here a pastor?
Has anyone on this blog, who is a pastor, kept a confessed pedophile in a ministry position for 7 months?
If I remember correctly, Mike is the one who thinks that God is only FOR things and never 'against' things. There are no, 'Thou Shalt Not's' in Mike's Bible.
self aggrandizing and quite blind, too. Follow Christ, Mike. Not men.
sdTelos,
I understand, but politely disagree--some things are a priori, heck precognitive even, requiring no further insight from other sources. I don't think, in my limited understanding, that scripture will conflict with what we know in our heart to be good and just.
Join me in praying 2 Corinthians 1 for Chad:
3Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of mercies and God of all comfort, 4who comforts us in all our affliction, so that we may be able to comfort those who are in any affliction, with the comfort with which we ourselves are comforted by God. 5For as we share abundantly in Christ's sufferings, so through Christ we share abundantly in comfort too.[
esther said, "is anyone here a pastor?"
it doesn't take a pastor to know right from wrong.
lindon,
Amen.
trollcates: I hear ya. I used to work for a man of impecible character and integrity. He was just, fair, compassionate, wise and smart. He was a servant leader who never micromanaged and constantly looked for ways to edify his staff. Yet, he was an agnostic.
Fast forward a few years:
I go to work at a mega church only to find senior staff deceptive, power greedy liars, complainers, slanderers, evil in deed and hypocritical. Spending tithe dollars like drunken sailors on leave. And that was just starters for Monday. Can you imagine my shock? No character, no integrity and could care less about it.
What is up with that? Can anyone explain this?
Well, for starters: It is called Cheap Grace and we have infested our churches with it. No one fears God anymore. We think we have a go to heaven free card because we profess Christ. No one thinks we actually have to 'Abide' in Him or constantly Walk in the Light OR follow scriptural commands and precepts all the time.
We are to look different than the world and yet, sometimes those 'professing' Christians are WORSE than the world.
Do we honor Christ if we do not contend for His Word?
Jeremiah 23 was mentioned in an earlier blog, thank you for pointing me to this Scripture, it is certainly relevant to BBC today. Jeremiah took an honest look at the religious world of his day and didn't think it was a pretty picture. Neither do many of us in our world today. Jeremiah was heartbroken about the preachers of his day (v.11). Those preachers were immoral people. They couldn't speak against certain sins because they would be condemning themselves, so the people never heard rebuke or of coming judgment. Those preachers were preaching a "prosperity" gospel – all is wonderful in the household of God; don't believe that God is displeased or that there will be judgment of sin; look at the positive side of things. To me, some of the January messages at BBC were very similar – forget the past – look ahead – focus on the future – lalala isn’t life grand. A large number of churches in America are preaching the same today – all is good, your life should be happy. Those were lies then and are lies today (v.26). When a preacher doesn't preach the sound doctrine, he does a great disservice to the people by not standing fast in the truth (v.22). God is against such men (v.32).
In prayer for Gator Jake.
lindon said...
"We think we have a go to heaven free card because we profess Christ."
It is more like a stay out of hell free card - it truly is cheapening the grace of God, the death of his Son and the indwelling Spirit that is freely givin. Sin is no longer Sin, crimes are mistakes and the victim is at fault.
I cannot figure it out - why would a redeemed believer turn away from calling a sin a sin? Could it be that there is so much sin in their own life that they support those who compromise their faith and deny that it is sin so that they won't have to face their own sins?
lindon said,
We are to look different than the world and yet, sometimes those 'professing' Christians are WORSE than the world.
reply:
"cheap grace=convenient christians"
Junk99
I read the web sites you listed.
I literally stumbled across Pastors.com, the website Ima mentions when I was searching the net on churches transitioning to elder rule- what our pastor wanted last year. If made me almost ill when I read the step by step guide (from Don Southerland's book)Mainly because it was secretive, calculated, very arrogant, and our leadership had been following it to the letter. Suddenly, some of the changes in the new bylaws became crystal clear=an example being going forward GBC could affiliate with another organization besides the SBC (and the elders could decide this without congregational approval UI migh add). Rev. Southerland recommends dropping the "Baptist" from your church as it can be offensive to some people.
To tell you the truth, I have only read criticism about PDC and my own experience wasn't a good one, so I am biased. But, never let anyone tell you "God is blessing it - look at the numbers!"(tm Rick Warren). The Mormon's growth numbers are through the roof- how do we explain that?
I'll pray for Chad too.
Let’s face it. That was just mean of Josh to use that itty-bitty recorder. And, I imagine DC would say he is sorry if any of us were offended by his words. Well, actually, if DC followed the lead of our pastor, he would still have several months to go before acknowledging that some of us ignorant poor unfortunate folks may have potentially misunderstood his comments and that we must have been looking for fault in him.
And…goodness gracious…let’s not forget that DC also must have been tired…very very tired after the grueling investigation that he personally supervised and was involved with. Come on! We know his feet must have been tired…with all of that tap-dancing. And, with his pending ordination ceremony coming up in a few weeks, maybe it is possible that his mind was elsewhere.
For those offended by Josh recording his conversation with David Coombs, that was just a mistake of his ears…er…his mind…sorry, but I’m still trying to get that phrase down. Ok, let’s try again, that was just a mistake of his mind. And, shouldn’t the manufacturer of the recording device be part of this, too?? Where is the fairness? The mean-spirited manufacturer of the recording device needs to apologize if anybody was offended, too.
OK…now…back to my ice cold large cup of sweet tea….
Heading for bed...see you guys tomorrow in the "no standing O" zone (front and center).
And don't forget Gator Jake in your prayers tonite.
I have a question now that David Coombs is going to be ordained as assoc pastor. If something happens to Gaines will Coombs be preaching?
I am asking because I thought one of the roles of an associate pastor is to preach.
Has he preached before?
I mean no disrespect to you good people here, when I say that such an attitude pervades evangelical businesses (guess that includes churches)and the people that run them. I've worked as a graphic artist for several years and won't do business with churches or the "praise the Lord" bunch anymore, because I've been burned too many times by folks that seem to gorge upon that saved-by-grace meal ticket. I'm just through with feeling icky about them--I don't wish lump all Christians together as a gaggle of greedy, self-righteous ( ).
Great men and women have been Christians--Martin Luther King, Jr, Mother Teresa, my dear mother. To them, faith is not an end unto itself, but the foundation for making an impact in the world (not just their lil' corner of it) instead of blithly sitting on their hands waiting for God to move; the acceptance that entry into the spiritual demands shedding the ego--letting go of dillusions and pride; reaching out to the suffering--so that we may be the hands and feet of God. Otherwise the fold is just a glorified country club.
Ok, that's going to fly like a cat.
Trollcates,
You said:
"I don't think, in my limited understanding, that scripture will conflict with what we know in our heart to be good and just."
Reply:
I use to think that sex before marriage was good and just. Do you?
Psalm 55:22 Cast thy burden upon the LORD, and he shall sustain thee: he shall never suffer the righteous to be moved.
Isaiah 41:10 ¶ Fear thou not; for I am with thee: be not dismayed; for I am thy God: I will strengthen thee; yea, I will help thee; yea, I will uphold thee with the right hand of my righteousness.
2nd Corinthians 1:3 ¶ Blessed be God, even the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of mercies, and the God of all comfort;
4 Who comforteth us in all our tribulation, that we may be able to comfort them which are in any trouble, by the comfort wherewith we ourselves are comforted of God.
aog- I live on the La. side of the La/Tx border...where is Chad/ Gator Jake from?
James 4:8 Draw nigh to God, and he will draw nigh to you. Cleanse your hands, ye sinners; and purify your hearts, ye double minded.
9 Be afflicted, and mourn, and weep: let your laughter be turned to mourning, and your joy to heaviness.
10 Humble yourselves in the sight of the Lord, and he shall lift you up.
Ecclesiastes 3:1 ¶ To every thing there is a season, and a time to every purpose under the heaven:
2 A time to be born, and a time to die; a time to plant, and a time to pluck up that which is planted;
3 A time to kill, and a time to heal; a time to break down, and a time to build up;
4 A time to weep, and a time to laugh; a time to mourn, and a time to dance;
5 A time to cast away stones, and a time to gather stones together; a time to embrace, and a time to refrain from embracing;
6 A time to get, and a time to lose; a time to keep, and a time to cast away;
7 A time to rend, and a time to sew; a time to keep silence, and a time to speak;
8 A time to love, and a time to hate; a time of war, and a time of peace.
I mean no disrespect to you good people here, when I say that such an attitude pervades evangelical businesses (guess that includes churches)and the people that run them. I've worked as a graphic artist for several years and won't do business with churches or the "praise the Lord" bunch anymore, because I've been burned too many times by folks that seem to gorge upon that saved-by-grace meal ticket. I'm just through with feeling icky about them--I don't wish lump all Christians together as a gaggle of greedy, self-righteous ( ).
Great men and women have been Christians--Martin Luther King, Jr, Mother Teresa, my dear mother. To them, faith is not an end unto itself, but the foundation for making an impact in the world (not just their lil' corner of it) instead of blithly sitting on their hands waiting for God to move; the acceptance that entry into the spiritual demands shedding the ego--letting go of dillusions and pride; reaching out to the suffering--so that we may be the hands and feet of God. Otherwise the fold is just a glorified country club.
Ok, that's going to fly like a cat.
Mike Bratton said:
If we as a church work things out
SOTL asks:
Mike, WHAT can be done to " work things out" short of SG and the millionaires club resigning? How can we go forward, knowing that SG refused to follow scripture, and that there are no reprocussions for JF, WW, OR SG?
Does anyone truly believe that any of us are safe, as long as SG is making the decisions? He has proven time and time again that he is in over his head.
I am personally repulsed by his decisions.
How are we to ' work it out' as you say? Please do not suggest that WE stop doing something, I want to hear what you expect of THEM.
trollcates...
"Ok, that's going to fly like a cat"
No...simmer down. You may have offended some, but not me. I haven't 'chatted' with you but have been watching from afar. :) You are a very intelligent fellow and I enjoy reading you. And it is nice to see that you even care that you might have offended. :) That is more than a lot of 'professed' Christians would do, in my opinion. You notice I use the word, 'profess'. That is the catch I believe. I think trollcates, the catch phrase is 'the narrow gate'. If you understand what I am saying...and I am am almost certain that you do. That is the problem.
Ima
NASS - Sorry this is not on subject....
Hey guys, I am on the west coast out of town and I heard that Dr. Howard Clark suddenly resigned from First Evan. Anyone know anything about this? Please email me at concernedformerstaffer@hotmail.com.
trollcates said,
I've worked as a graphic artist for several years and won't do business with churches or the "praise the Lord" bunch anymore, because I've been burned too many times by folks that seem to gorge upon that saved-by-grace meal ticket. I'm just through with feeling icky about them--I don't wish lump all Christians together as a gaggle of greedy, self-righteous ( ).
Unfortunately, I too have experienced this too many times in working with people who call themselves Christians. (I say "call themselves" because their lives don't really show any evidence of someone who knows the Lord, but anyways...)
Thanks for not lumping all Christians in that category though! We're not all that way...
"I use to think that sex before marriage was good and just. Do you?"
Yeah,
But now that I'm divorced, it's even better. HA!
Be careful what you ask, please friend. You know I don't share your edicts; there's no reason to accentuate the differences.
ima,
it is also the path... it is understanding that Jesus accepted God's wrath...it is being sensitive to sin...
At 8:22 PM, February 03, 2007
Imaresistor said:
"So, now I ask this of you and others. Please read this [http://www.challies.com/
archives/002080.php]. It is a very informative link and very educational. I hope you can see from it the circumstances surrounding you now."
junk99mail replies:
Thanks for your response, and for the link. I read the article and each of the responses to it. I agree that more people should acquaint themselves with these issues and concerns.
I have had my own personal experience with the "transitioning" concepts and practices that the article discusses, so I can truly sympathize with those who have been hurt by insensitivity and hostility from church leaders who are attempting to make sweeping changes. About 5 years ago my family and I left a church that we loved, a place where we had dear Christian friends. My wife's parents had been committed members and leaders there for over 20 years, and around 1999 my wife and I transferred membership there (after several years of encouragement from her parents to do so). Our son came to understand his need for salvation through the ministry of that church, and was saved by God's grace and baptized there. We had respect for the leadership and were pleased with what seemed to be their strong devotion to Christ and His will. But at some point the leadership became convinced that the church needed to be drastically changed and restructured, and set about to implement significant changes. Many of the members were enthused about the new direction, and many others were willing to set aside any concerns and go along...but a few had some serious concerns about whether the changes were truly biblical. Although the things being changed and the reasons for them were not centered in PDC-type teachings, the attitudes displayed by the leaders towards those who expressed any concerns were very much the same as described in the article you referenced, and those that have been experienced by several who have posted on this blog.
It just so happens that two of the people who had concerns over what was going on at the church were my father-in-law and mother-in-law. My wife and I had some concerns as well, though not as strong as those of her parents. But we were dismayed when the church leadership (of which my in-laws, particularly my father-in-law, had long been a part) began stating publicly that anyone who did not like the changes were free (and encouraged) to leave and find another church. When my in-laws had a series of private meetings with the leaders, they were told more directly that they needed to stop raising objections or they should leave. They could not in good conscience be silent, but did not wish to be a source of contention, so they quietly left their church home of 20+ years. If you knew just how much of their time and hearts they had invested in that church you would know how incredibly difficult and heart-breaking that was. My wife and I attempted to remain at the church for a time, but it was just too difficult to stay and submit to the leadership of these men who so openly proclaimed that they were following God's will, and yet so openly chided and even mocked any dissenters, and treated so badly people whom we knew to love Christ. My in-laws were by no means the only ones "run off" ... and to this day, a half decade later, I know of a few folks who were so damaged by this abuse by their spiritual leaders that they have not yet been able to get plugged back into another church.
So I know what it is like to hear leaders talk excitedly of following a different (and supposedly more biblical) "paradigm", of transitioning from a PBC (program-based church) to something "much better", and of the obligation of members to submit (or just go away). I know how painful and frustrating and angering it is to see those leaders arrogantly imply that they alone had the inside track with God and the "spiritual maturity" to know what was best, while at the same time they didn't have a grasp on something as simple and basic as treating the members with respect and compassion. Words like "If you don't like it, you can leave" have NO PLACE EVER coming from shepherds to their flock, their family members in Christ. I can put up with a huge amount of theological and methodological differences, knowing that Christ loves His people (including me) in spite of our imperfections and our misunderstandings of His truth. But I find it much more difficult to take it when someone treats fellow Christians with a lack of grace and compassion. Knowing the compassion Christ has shown each of us, knowing that His love for us is not dependant on how perfect our doctrine is or how well we conform to His teachings, and knowing what a great price He paid to reconcile us to Himself, if we claim to be His followers, how can we treat each other with anything less than kindness? I cannot understand how Christians can miss such a vital and fundamental point of the faith.
BTW...Allofgrace ... just wanted you to know that I appreciated your invitation to stop in to your blog. I had visited it previously, and I went there again today and read more posts. It is interesting and stimulating discussion ... don't be surprised if I post a comment sometime. But please don't be offended if I don't--I already spend more time than I should just reading and occasionally posting on this one!:)
Trollcates said:
"Be careful what you ask, please friend. You know I don't share your edicts; there's no reason to accentuate the differences."
Reply:
I will be more careful.
Dr. Rogers use to say,"It is not what is in the showcase, it is what is in the warehouse." I guess I was taking inventory...
I do have great repspect for your intellect and artistry. I wish you a good night.
Peace,
Mark
goodnight, all.
junk99mail said,
Although the things being changed and the reasons for them were not centered in PDC-type teachings..."
Thanks for you reply...and for reading the link I listed. It is very descriptive of the transitiong phase.
I would really have cause to believe that this which you describe IS the transitional phase of the purpose driven church movement. What did all this lead to...meaning the church itself? What were the end results of the changes in that church? What is it doing today, five years later?
Did your parents-in-law find another church? What about you and your wife?
I am so sorry this happened to you and your family.
Ima
Trollcates
You said:
"I don't think, in my limited understanding, that scripture will conflict with what we know in our heart to be good and just."
Then this:
"Be careful what you ask, please friend. You know I don't share your edicts; there's no reason to accentuate the differences."
David, you related things to be good and just outside of scripture. This is what made me ask a question that shows you how scripture can conflict with what may be in our hearts. I will respect you always... but I will defend scripture.
Respectfully,
Mark
Praying for Chad and his family right now!
sickofthelies said...
Mike Bratton said:
If we as a church work things out
SOTL asks:
Mike, WHAT can be done to " work things out" short of SG and the millionaires club resigning? How can we go forward, knowing that SG refused to follow scripture, and that there are no reprocussions for JF, WW, OR SG?
Someone is going to have to issue a playbook, since so many folks have an affinity for using initials around here!
WW = Wonder Woman?
SG = Stargate SG-1?
JF = John Frusciante of the Red Hot Chili Peppers? (OK, I had to "Wiki" that last one.)
Seriously, though... This "refusing to follow Scripture" business can apply to lots of people in the current conflagration--be careful how you wield the statement.
And I'll say it again: There need to be more repercussions than those already stated.
Does anyone truly believe that any of us are safe, as long as SG is making the decisions? He has proven time and time again that he is in over his head.
"Safe"?
Good night, nurse! I know my family is safe, and I know I'm safe, because I know God is sovereign, and that He is in charge.
I am personally repulsed by his decisions.
You might have read that I'm not a fan of some of them, either.
How are we to ' work it out' as you say? Please do not suggest that WE stop doing something, I want to hear what you expect of THEM.
I tell "them" what I expect of "them." And I remind the rest of us what our responsibilities are. One of those responsibilities is to be firm, but loving, in our responses to the leadership. The Nazi comparisons (which still keep popping up, amazingly) and other assorted examples of hyperbole don't do anything in the "firm but loving" department, wouldn't you agree?
--Mike
Will be praying for Chad and his family.
Jesus is the same yesterday, today, and forever....and He is still in the healing and miracle business.
Sincerely in The LORD and ONLY Savior Jesus Christ,
Stephen and Bonita Ann Richie
Living Hope In Jesus
www.livinghopeinjesus.com
Yes, but drawing me into a discussion of my own moires is more offense than defense (in sporting terms), since scripture doesn't require defending from me.
For those interested in reading some of the statutes the church, as a non-profit entity in the state of Tennessee, is required to abide by, check out this.
trying to edit
lily wrote:
"trying to edit"
You can't edit a comment once it's published. You can only rewrite it, repost it, and delete the old one.
junk99mail,
I'd like very much for you to email me. My email address is in my profile. Thanks...
Ima
Purpose Driven School?
Does the choir not sit behind Dr Gaines anymore? I'm streaming right now and don't see them back there.
Trollcates said...
Yes, but drawing me into a discussion of my own moires is more offense than defense (in sporting terms), since scripture doesn't require defending from me.
Reply:
I dont think I drew you into a public discussion. I believe you extended an invitation when you stated - "I don't think, in my limited understanding, that scripture will conflict with what we know in our heart to be good and just." This statement, in the context of whether or not we inherently know what is right or wrong outside of scripture, allows for discussion and is no sporting trap.
Email may be a better place for this...
AOG,
Any word about Chad?
oc,
No word...the lady who emailed me was at the place where he lives on his computer. She was obviously shaken, but Chad had given her a letter a while back expressing his wishes in the event something happened, one of which was to contact me..she took my email address and said she would try to write back and keep me abreast, but to forgive her if it wasn't in a timely manner...which I understand. She wrote a message he had left for me in his letter to her...he had also requested in the letter that he not be kept on life support...so it's just a matter of waiting for her to write back...if he passes, it may be a few days before I know of it. Chad was married, but his wife had died, and as far as I know, has no children...he's a member of a Primitive Baptist church, and they are his family. They have been taking very good care of him, which is a comfort to me..my heart goes out to them..Chad wrote to me on Tuesday, and told me that he was expecting to preach today...I logged into my email yesterday to write back to him...that's when I got the message from his pastor's wife. Just continue to pray, and especially for his church family, as Chad is very special to them. Thanks for all your prayers.
MIke Bratton: "One of those responsibilities is to be firm, but loving, in our responses to the leadership."
Besides the fact that you, ironically, expect higher standards from the membership than you do from the 'ministers', would you do me the honor of defining a few of your above words in terms of where you are coming from in this issue:
1. What do you mean by 'firm'?
2. What do mean by 'loving'?
Please give actionable examples of each. Thanks.
trollcates: There is a push going on at a few seminiaries to recommened that new pastors not develop business guides for their church members. They are also cautioning members not to advertise in 'Shepherds' guides for the exact reasons we have been discussing and you experienced at the graphics firm.
AOG,
Thankyou.
AOG...Chad and his church family will remain in my prayers.
What a happy reunion in Heaven he will have to see his wife......when it is God's will for him to pass.
My friend Telos,
I looked for you at BBC this morning; hope you weren't banned at the door. Missed Randy and Karen too--everything okie dokie?
We are long since engaged in a public discussion, so no problem there. But I am a Buddhist, I don't live by your world view and the standards therein; that said, the subject of my criticism is whether a pastor who allows a pedophile to continue unchecked for seven months is credible or not.
If you wish to go as far afield as to vet my beliefs about premarital sex, then that's your call, but I refuse to go down that road with you.
I thought commerce on Sunday was also against scripture, but perhaps God is understanding that sometimes, folks just really need a Bibleman mask from the gift shop.
It is patently offensive to suggest that without scripture, people lack the discernment of good ethics and compassionate responses to matters like the Williams scandal. Pooey, pooey pooey!
Thank goodness the Bible doesn't say, "if thy head offend thee, cut it off." It's is not a theological isssue, it's a public safety issue, and that includes the public that does not follow the confines of your particular faith, brother.
"I dont think I drew you into a public discussion. I believe you extended an invitation when you stated - "I don't think, in my limited understanding, that scripture will conflict with what we know in our heart to be good and just." This statement, in the context of whether or not we inherently know what is right or wrong outside of scripture, allows for discussion and is no sporting trap."
Email may be a better place for this...
Dear Telos,
As far as I am concerned, any matter brought into the public sphere, say one's opinion regarding premarital sex, may likewise be concluded there. It is only good and just (sorry, no passage of scripture).
"I use to think that sex before marriage was good and just. Do you?"
The problem here, dear new friend, is that you already know I don't follow the New or Old Testiments as the basis of morals and ethics (and yes, non-christians do have them). Secondly, that being the case, it felt like a rather curt--rather snippy, somewhat premeditated and a bit pious--little jab at me, personally.
I try to be measured here, because I could easily get too earthy, but you walked right into my response. The "do you?" insinuated that I was somehow caught. Sorry for the return jab--that's what we Buddhists call "instant karma."
You seem to be a little over-reaching with the defense of the gospel thing, with someone like myself that absolutely wishes you no harm.
Love, David
I just received this email a few minutes ago:
It is with a heavy heart that I write to you to inform you that Bro. Jake--Shadrack Jackson Daigrepont, passed away at 5:30 am this morning. We are all deeply grieving but are also at peace.
He was an organ donor so even in his death he continues to give. His wife was a physical therapy assistant and did the same and also had her body donated to science, and his wishes were to do the same. Though we will have no funeral, we will have a memorial service in one of our homes after a proper time of grieving. May the peace that our Lord is granting us find its way to you also. His half sister will be gathering his belongings, including his computer, and I am doubtful that she will continue his email account or even use his computer. I suppose it will expire. However until it does, I will inform her that there may be those who may write, just in case she decides to use his computer and would like to respond. I do not know you, but I can tell by his sentiments that he expressed towards you that you made a great impression on him, especially in a time when he had so many problems. Thanks again for being a bright spot in a dark time in our dear friend's life. May God bless you for your kindness.
In our Lord
Sister Sarah Irons
bereans,
it's of any interest I previously posted:
the lexicon on ordain:
kathistemi
1a) to set one over a thing (in charge of it)
1b) to appoint one to administer an office
1c) to set down as, constitute, to declare, show to be
Concerning the ordination of elders(elder is not just in age but in experience) or bishops (in the context, not much distinction); (give special attention to verses 7, 8, 9). This is not a PR position, but a position of ministering the gospel of grace, not in a novice manner, but in manner that will help set things in order in both doctrine and in practice; there is also the implication that he should be both ready and qualified to defend both the faith and doctrines from those who would do harm to it and attempt to pervert it, that is the gospel of grace and its accompanying doctrines. In its context, that is who the apostle is commending to be ordained.
Titus 1:5 ¶ For this cause left I thee in Crete, that thou shouldest set in order the things that are wanting, and ordain elders in every city, as I had appointed thee:
6 ¶ If any be blameless, the husband of one wife, having faithful children not accused of riot or unruly.
7 For a bishop must be blameless, as the steward of God; not selfwilled, not soon angry, not given to wine, no striker, not given to filthy lucre;
8 But a lover of hospitality, a lover of good men, sober, just, holy, temperate;
9 Holding fast the faithful word as he hath been taught, that he may be able by sound doctrine both to exhort and to convince the gainsayers.
10 For there are many unruly and vain talkers and deceivers, specially they of the circumcision:
11 Whose mouths must be stopped, who subvert whole houses, teaching things which they ought not, for filthy lucre’s sake.
Lindon said...
MIke Bratton: "One of those responsibilities is to be firm, but loving, in our responses to the leadership."
Besides the fact that you, ironically, expect higher standards from the membership than you do from the 'ministers',
And you know this how, exactly?
would you do me the honor of defining a few of your above words in terms of where you are coming from in this issue:
1. What do you mean by 'firm'?
These have already been "defined," but for the record, the congregation as a whole must insist upon--among other things--operational transparency and two-way communication as goals.
2. What do mean by 'loving'?
Again, asked and answered, but in brief, "loving" means dispensing with the overheated rhetoric and adversarial, "gotcha" tactics.
Please give actionable examples of each. Thanks.
Some examples--
Firm: Keep insisting upon a business meeting.
Keep asking if there will be additional censures of those mentioned in the report as being at fault.
Loving: Keep insisting upon a business meeting without using Nazi or Clinton analogies, without questioning the salvation of anyone in leadership, and without insisting there's an empty pike over there which would look a lot better with someone's head mounted on it.
Keep praying for those mentioned in the report as being at fault.
Abandon pseudonymous postings, regardless of your viewpoint or affiliation. Accountability has a way of encouraging people to better behavior.
--Mike
AOG,
Am praying for you and Chad's church family as you grieve, and rejoicing that Chad is now at home with our Lord.
Mike Bratton said
Firm: Keep insisting upon a business meeting.
Keep asking if there will be additional censures of those mentioned in the report as being at fault.
Piglet says:
We, and others before us have "insisted" on this meeting since May 2006 - so that Mark Sharp, David Smith, Bryson McQuiston, Steve Gaines and Mark Dougherty could settle this issue. How long do you "insist" for goodness sake?!
And since then the list of improprieties has just gotten longer.
You're being unrealistic.
They are being exposed for what they are...
Psalms 116:15 Precious in the sight of the LORD is the death of his saints.
Matthew 5:4 Blessed are they that mourn: for they shall be comforted.
2nd Corinthians 1:3 ¶ Blessed be God, even the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of mercies, and the God of all comfort;
4 Who comforteth us in all our tribulation, that we may be able to comfort them which are in any trouble, by the comfort wherewith we ourselves are comforted of God.
Revelation 14:13 ¶ And I heard a voice from heaven saying unto me, Write, Blessed are the dead which die in the Lord from henceforth: Yea, saith the Spirit, that they may rest from their labours; and their works do follow them.
aog,
peace in a time of sorrow;
you said that your friend was from La. I live on the La. side of the La/TX border. Do you know where he lived? North? South?
amos,
I'm not really sure...he never really told me exactly where it was in La...just a small town...his church had about 12 or so people...he told me once that they came to where he lived to have church, since he was unable to attend. He was a dear sweet soul though. He shared a lot of his heart with me, and sent me some of his writings..I think Jake knew he was going to die, and wanted to share those things with me.
Aog,
"Precious in the sight of the Lord is the death of His saints."
Psalm 116:15
Mike wrote: And you know this how, exactly?"
By your comments here.
"These have already been "defined," but for the record, the congregation as a whole must insist upon--among other things--operational transparency and two-way communication as goals."
Every single person must insist? Using that criteria, it would have been impossible for St. Paul to do what he had to do.
Mike: "Again, asked and answered, but in brief, "loving" means dispensing with the overheated rhetoric and adversarial, "gotcha" tactics."
One man's rhetoric is another man's profundity. But, you still have not defined 'loving' as you see it.
"Firm: Keep insisting upon a business meeting.
Keep asking if there will be additional censures of those mentioned in the report as being at fault."
Asking how? To Whom?
Mike: "Loving: Keep insisting upon a business meeting without using Nazi or Clinton analogies, without questioning the salvation of anyone in leadership, and without insisting there's an empty pike over there which would look a lot better with someone's head mounted on it."
Now, who is using rhetoric and violent analogies toward fellow brothers and sisters? Again, give an example of 'loving'.
Mike "Keep praying for those mentioned in the report as being at fault."
Aren't you assuming something here?
Mike: "Abandon pseudonymous postings, regardless of your viewpoint or affiliation. Accountability has a way of encouraging people to better behavior."
As in Ace, overflowinggrace and bepatient?
There is a good reason for anonymity. Ask the Anabaptists back in the 1600's. No one wants to be a target and your leaders have proven they do not take kindly to questions of any kind.
It is amazing the things that have happened due to 'publicity'. Like the information about Paul Williams being a pedophile, for one. Going by the behavior of your leaders, he may still be on staff had it not been for this blog.
aog,
the reason I asked is twofold
-the last name is of course cajun, but is a local name found primarily in eastern and southern La, for I knew several people by that name growing up
-you mentioned that he was a primitive baptist; you would be hardpressed to find many organized primitive baptist churches, though there may be a few, except in central and southern La.(most of these are hardshell, I doubt your friend was); also, I know several primitive baptist church groups that meet in homes and are not incorporated in our surrounding area, and usually they are made up of a family or two, so that part of your post is really endearing
-I do have one friend who attends an organized PBC further south; I will inquire of him the name; again...grace to you
amos,
When he shared with me that he was primitive baptist, he made a point to clarify not hardshell..he was a grace man to be sure...homespun in the way he wrote sometimes in his native dialect, but in his writings...like a seminarian..as he told me once.."my wife say I talk like a hayseed, but write like a divine." She had it right. I'm going to miss hearing from him....he actually used to be the pastor of this particular little congregation.
Lindon,
I would just like to clarify- my identity is not a secret to most people on this blog, including you I believe. I choose not to post it on the internet for the world to see, but I have made it available to anyone who wants to know, including many who lurk here to help keep me accountable. There are many on BOTH sides who keep their identities secret- NASS isn't revealing hers to the general public any more than Ace is. They both have that right. Don't just call out those with opposing views for being secretive. That list should have included many others.
Mike, just because people don't reveal their names to everyone here doesn't mean that they do not have accountability. But for the record, I do think it is dangerous when NO ONE knows who you are.
Mike, just because people don't reveal their names to everyone here doesn't mean that they do not have accountability.
I gotta agree with this. I too have people who know me, know that I'm posting on this blog, and give me feedback. If I ever choose to reveal my identity on this blog, I will do so at my discretion and not be manipulated into it.
But for the record, I do think it is dangerous when NO ONE knows who you are.
I would just add that, as I've mentioned a number of times before, nothing is hidden before the eyes of Him to Whom we must give an account.
Mike Bratton,
Are you so insensitive that you can't understand that victims of sexual abuse do not want to give their names?
And if you are considering giving us 'advice' please, I've invited you before, please come to any of the many many incest survival support groups around town and explain to them how that is silly or unfounded.
I"m sure they would LOVE to hear from someone who obviously knows so much about it.
Interesting repost from early Nov. 2006:
West Jackson Member said...
Hi to my brothers at Bellevue Baptist Church. I can't sit back and say nothing any longer. I have a few comments for you to consider.
At West Jackson anyone can find out what the pastor or music minister earns by asking. We hide nothing. Many in the church know exactly what our pastor makes and this transparency helps avoid the kind of arguments you have got going on. Any deacon who asks questions here will get an answer.
I'm sorry for you at Bellevue. You're finding out why so many here were blown away when Steve Gaines became your pastor. I am only surprised this blow-up didn't start before it did. He's not an evil man. In fact, he is a smart and talented man and he means well. He just thinks he is right and won't back down, even when he's wrong. He won't care too much what your deacons think. He'll gather 3 or 4 powerful men to his side and forget the rest of them.
I hate how ugly this thing has been. With Steve Gaines it wouldn't happen any other way because he wouldn't let it. If he disagrees with you, you're the devil tearing his ministry down and sending people to the pit of hell. Arrogance has always been the problem.
People are watching to see if you will fight to know the truth and save your church. Don't give in and go away. Stay strong.
3:28 PM, November 02, 2006
imaresistor, you have mail. (Pardon me if this is a duplicate post.)
25+,
Thank you for your "reminder" post. I have talked with someone in the know at Gardendale. The damage that was done there is still painful for many. She told me that there were lifelong Christian friends who are now bitter enemies after Steve Gaines got thru dividing their church. There were many that left, families were split and he did the same thing that he did at West Jackson and Bellevue. He gets his circle of power and literally turns his back on the rest of the congregation unless you can provide something for his agenda - takes away all power from the deacons and forces those staff and members who may oppose him completely out of the church. I guess he thinks that he has to kick out the "trash" everywhere he goes. May God help us all!
Dear 25+years@BBC,
We appreciate your post pertaining to Steve Gaines.
Bottom line.....He is fighting for his paycheck. His cronies are fighting for their paychecks. Full of ungodly pride? Yes. And also full of love for filthy lucre. Just as happened with Balaam, The LORD Jesus and His Word and His TRUE sheep have been betrayed for love of money by these hirelings.
They keep their financial gains sustained through popularity efforts and psychology used in God's pulpit. These hirelings also count on the lukewarm compromisers that do not read and study their Bibles!!! Such people are such easy marks and easy targets for the devil. Gaines and the other hirelings are having a great time fleecing the flock remaining at Bellevue....if indeed any of those that remain are truly of God's flock. I say this about those remaining at Bellevue because
The Bible tells us that Jesus is the Head of The Church and what He sends forth to the members of the Body are heard by all....so why aren't these that remain at Bellevue hearing? Or are they simply deceived and ignoring what God HAS to be placing in their minds and hearts?
Added a page to our website yesterday entitled "WARNING, FELLOW CHRISTIANS! SATAN Wants YOU! RUN TO JESUS!". It contains a picture of a wolf set ready to attack and devour. I am in a flesh body, too, and actually thought of sending a copy of the page to Gaines with a note that would have said "Couldn't help thinking of you!" but my beloved Stephen said "NO!" to my flesh idea. How I thank God for my husband! He is a strong man of God and I appreciate every breath he takes. He certainly stopped me from taking my flesh mind's bait. I just get so angry and hurt and frustrated because I have lost my Church to attend. I simply cannot sit under the words of a man that would lie, pet a pediophile, respect God's Word so very little as God's policy and procedure manual that he has to play "stupid" and ask for MAN-made policies and procedures in how to deal with a rapist "pastor". God tells us that we are to flee such and while we are indeed fleeing, the hurt continues. We KNOW that God is going to end the "Gaines and company" charade, but I must admit that I have prayed that The LORD Jesus will speed it up so that we can go back to Bellevue under TRUE Christian leadership.
May Jesus continue to comfort all of us that are so grieved over the scorn and shame and disgrace that Gaines and his ungodly "yes" men have brought upon His Holy, blameless, all-powerful, and precious Name.
Sincerely in The LORD and ONLY Savior Jesus Christ,
Stephen and Bonita Ann Richie
Living Hope In Jesus
www.livinghopeinjesus.com
Yes, thanks 25 for reposting that!
Good morning everyone!
Good Morning, socwork!
I hope everyone has a GREAT day!
Sometime I sure would like to meet (most of) you! I've felt more a part here than I have at church for a long time...kinda sad, but true.
Some of you have noted that releasing information through the press amounts to, or results in, self-aggrandizement. But of course such an assertion about one can only be based on what the one has chosen to reveal to the other about himself, or on the other's opinion of the one's purportedly self-aggrandizement. I have certainly never in the least said or intimated that my actions were in any way designed to bring glory to myself, so those who say otherwise are left with their opinions or inferences as the basis for their criticism. To that, all I can say is that their inferences are incorrect entirely.
But another problem with the self-aggrandizement argument is that it automatically condemns any who would do good in the public eye. Take for example, Adrian Rogers. One could just as easily argue that he was self-aggrandizing when he stood up for Truth at the SBC, when he appeared in the media to defend us, and when he stood publicly against gay marriage. One could level the same accusations at James Dobson.
The problem is that the self-aggrandizement argument potentially condemns any who do good in public, implying that anyone who does good or what is right publicly only does it publicly for his own benefit. This is obviously false. Some do. Many do not. Further complicating things is the fact that this same argument logically results in the idea that one CANNOT do good if he is doing it publicly. This is obviously false.
A more interesting take on that, however, is Paul's note about motivations in Philippians 1. He notes that whether people preach the gospel from envy or love, he doesn't care as long as it gets preached. I can't help but think that this idea is applicable here. Whether one does good from a desire to look awesome, or out of a desire to simply do what is right, isn't the important thing to others the fact that he simply did right? Certainly his pride is sin, but that is between himself and God, and the good he does perhaps should not be thrown out on the basis of his less-than-altruistic motivation.
But of course, I could be wrong. As for my motivations, you have only my word that they are from a pure desire to see the truth realized, not out of any desire to bring honor to myself. I believe any who have talked with me directly could attest to this. As for what is on the inside that you cannot see, I assure you it is altruistic, but if you choose to judge against me if you must.
25+:
Regarding salaries at churches...last night at the FBC Jax Pastor's Conference Jerry Vines came down to preach and took the opportunity to defend his past huge salaries, and Mac Brunson joined right in...it was a sad spectacle, for two millionaire preachers to be applauding one another and hugging one another about how they deserve the mega-bucks in front of several thousand humble pastors, and right after Junior Hill preached a superb sermon about pastors not thinking too highly of themselves. If you go to the FBC Jax blog (hyperlinked here at Bellevue blog) you will see a couple of excellent posts about this. It was an embarrassing, sad moment at FBC Jax. This was a "why I don't preach on Wednesday nights" kind of moment - nervous laughter as two men showed a side of themselves that we really didn't want to see.
Comment moderation makes me sad.
Is this a permanent change or a wait-and-see change?
Thanks again for keeping the blog up NASS.
socwork
Come,LordJesus -
Please explain to me your rationale in judging the salvation of others. You have made some strong judgments about not only our Pastor, but about the rest of leadership and anyone who disagrees with your position. Do you see this as productive? Do you not think that those whom you are hoping will "switch sides" will take this, not as an encouragement to change our minds, but as an un-Biblical rebuke? Please, in love, reconsider your approach to making comments about those who claim to be your brethren. We cannot heal as a body if we pronounce judgments about one another that only God is qualified to make.
socwork,
It isn't making my days any easier either, but because of ace and the hairballs and a couple others and until I complete the switchover to the new format, it's a necessary evil. I apologize for the inconvenience. Just keep on writing!
NBBCOF
Concernedsbcer...said:
"Sometime I sure would like to meet (most of) you! I've felt more a part here than I have at church for a long time...kinda sad, but true."
I feel the exact same way. I have even thought about when this blog ends, I will surely miss you folks. This group is (well, most of them anyway) basically a group of discerners. We understand each other. (Again, that would be most of us :))
"We cannot heal as a body if we pronounce judgments about one another that only God is qualified to make."
Would you please exposit Matthew 7 in its entirety for a better understanding of this. There are more examples but this one is very clear.
If we take your view to its logical conclusion then we have to ignore Pauls admonition to Timothy.
Dear IloveBBC,
We had no idea that we had a site called "Touch Not Mine Anointed". This is news to us. The only website that we have ever had is "Living Hope In Jesus" which is all about Jesus. It is a site to help fellow Christians but it's main goal is to lead the lost to Jesus' salvation.
Yes, I remember emailing the letter
you posted to the Saving Bellevue site in the fall concerning Gaines. It was not a post nor a site(?). It was merely an email that we sent by clicking onto the "send email" button at the Saving Bellevue site. I would have to ask Bro. Jim exactly what date that was but I think it was in October or early November. Have our minds been changed? YES!!! GOD changed our minds! HE opened our eyes! We really fought, I believe, His efforts to open our eyes but God being persistant, He won. We are so grateful for His faithfulness to us. We were like the ones who write on the blog now even against US for opposing the hirelings at Bellevue. God is still opening eyes as we can attest to in our own lives. Until He opens the eyes of those that are where we were(truly opposing themselves),we have no desire to answer these people. We shall "stive not about words to no profit" and we will "shun profane and vain babblings: for they will increase unto more ungodliness".
Brother Jim merely stayed quiet and let The LORD Jesus talk to us.
So shall we do with those that post against us.
Thanks for your post.
Sincerely in The LORD and ONLY Savior Jesus Christ,
Stephen and Bonita Ann Richie
Living Hope In Jesus
www.livinghopeinjesus.com
2006huldah wrote:
"This letter has been viewed and witnessed by the blog administrator and other members of Bellevue Baptist Church."
I will attest to that. :-)
NBBCOF
Josh,
Thank you for your hard work. When you stand for truth, particularly in this culture where we are told that truth is relative, you become a lightning rod.
I appreciate all of your efforts to bring the truth to light.
Thank you for using the talents that God gave you to stand for truth.
You are learning much about human nature at a very young age. You are wise beyond your years.
Dee: A timely post. Thank you.
Josh
SOTL,
Thank you for the encouragement. As always, you're too kind. Praise God for anything good we get to do here.
Human nature is a mess isn't it?
Josh
Oswald Chambers writing on some church leaders:
"It is one thing to go on the lonely way with dignified heroism, but quite another thing if the line mapped out for you by God means being a door-mat under other people’s feet. Suppose God wants to teach you to say, “I know how to be abased” - are you ready to be offered up like that? Are you ready to be not so much as a drop in a bucket - to be so hopelessly insignificant that you are never thought of again in connection with the life you served? Are you willing to spend and be spent; not seeking to be ministered unto, but to minister? Some saints cannot do menial work and remain saints because it is beneath their dignity."
Dee said...
"P.S.--This letter has been viewed and witnessed by the blog administrator and other members of Bellevue Baptist Church."
I can attest that I have seen the original letter with Dr Rogers' signature on Bellevue letterhead.
Sotl, you have mail.
JM
Josh, Yes, human nature is a BIG mess! Sometimes I feel so hopeless and then I remember that God is not surprised at anything that is happening. He is still on His Throne.
I am so thankful for all the hard work you, the blog administrator, and everyone else is doing. The quest for Truth has been a hard one. The stakes are high. (Almost) everyone on this blog has tried to hold their part of the weight....some watching out for our children, some warning of gcm and warrenism, some reminding us of exactly what scripture says, some following up with accountability. Like scripture that talks of us being members of one body, it seems as if that is what we have become. From near and far, God has done a great work in our lives. However, while things are quiet now, it's not over. Thank you for your thirst and hard work for truth.
Gal. 6:9 "And let us not grow weary while doing good, for in due season we shall reap if we do not lose heart.
Lindon said...
"We cannot heal as a body if we pronounce judgments about one another that only God is qualified to make."
Would you please exposit Matthew 7 in its entirety for a better understanding of this. There are more examples but this one is very clear.
You do understand, do you not, that judging the salvation of another individual is not in a Christian's purview? And that Matthew 7 (or any other Scripture you care to mention) does not endorse that type of judgement?
If we take your view to its logical conclusion then we have to ignore Pauls admonition to Timothy.
"A little wine for thy stomach's sake and for thy often infirmities"? Yes, I actually do ignore that, in favor of Pepto-Bismol.
But not the cherry flavor, if I can help it. Blech...
--Mike
Dee said
This letter has been viewed and witnessed by the blog administrator and other members of Bellevue Baptist Church.
Piglet says:
I saw it, too!
Also,it might be quiet on the blog but that just means there is more time for doing instead of talking. And I think it is about time. There's lots to be done!
That's right piglet! I know I'm doing lots of things today.
New BBC Open Forum said...
That's right piglet! I know I'm doing lots of things today.
Reply: So it seems!!!
So...it is a good time to ask a question I'd like to have answered. Does anybody know if Ellendale Baptist Church has gone purpose driven, or an equivalent or not? Not wanting to go there for anything other than a yes or no. Thanks...
I just read an article about covering up sexual abuse in Baptist circles. I'm including a link for those interested.
Click here
Here's an excerpt from the article:
I have observed a “cover-up” mentality in many large Baptist churches that seems to be systemic. They emphasize the inerrancy of the Bible but are very weak on implementing Biblical procedures of church discipline. Why boast about preaching the very Word of God if it is not practiced in personal lives and in church procedures? It is past time to practice what we preach.
Here's something I received in an email today. I'll probably get fussed at by some, but I still thought it was worth sharing.
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Lessons on Life:
There was a man who had four sons. He wanted his sons to learn not to judge things too quickly. So he sent them each on a quest, in turn, to go and look at a pear tree that was a great distance away.
The first son went in the winter, the second in the spring, the third in summer, and the youngest son in the fall.
When they had all gone and come back, he called them together to describe what they had seen.
The first son said that the tree was ugly, bent, and twisted.
The second son said no it was covered with green buds and full of promise.
The third son disagreed; he said it was laden with blossoms that smelled so sweet and looked so beautiful, it was the most graceful thing he had ever seen.
The last son disagreed with all of them; he said it was ripe and drooping with fruit, full of life and fulfillment.
The man then explained to his sons that they were all right, because they had each seen but only one season in the tree's life.
He told them that you cannot judge a tree, or a person, by only one season, and that the essence of who they are and the pleasure, joy, and love that come from that life can only be measured at the end, when all the seasons are up.
If you give up when it's winter, you will miss the promise of your spring, the beauty of your summer, fulfillment of your fall.
Moral lessons:
(1) Don't let the pain of one season destroy the joy of all the rest. Don't judge life by one difficult season.
(2) Persevere through the difficult patches and better times are sure to come.
(3) Don't be quick to judge others, as we don't know what season they're in.
Piglet, What can I do to help??? Give me a job!
Junk99mail said
(1) Don't let the pain of one season destroy the joy of all the rest. Don't judge life by one difficult season.
(2) Persevere through the difficult patches and better times are sure to come.
(3) Don't be quick to judge others, as we don't know what season they're in.
Piglet says:
I never saw the winter in Dr.Rogers during the 25 years he was my pastor. If he had one, I doubt he destroyed a church and broke several laws in the process, or hid a known pedophile from his congregation..
Perhaps Steve Gaines can be of some benefit to someone in his "spring" or "summer" but I'm not sure BBC will have survived by then.
concernedsbcer said
Piglet, What can I do to help??? Give me a job!
Piglet says:
First of all, pray for IDC and BBC as I'm sure you probably are. That is probably all you can do if you are not a Bellevuemember, UNLESS you know BBC members personally who have important information or testimony to share. Encourage them to step forward and trust God to care for them as they do what is right. Have them email Tim.
Otherwise, we as members need to be calling BBC to demand that they comply with the law and release documents.
The members should read the bylaws we DO have (see SavingBellevue) and call and ask why we are having no meetings and why one person serves on several committees.
Members should talk to their friends who are out of the loop and get them up to speed. More eyes are opening since Steve Gaines has admitted to breaking the law regarding the failure to report apedophile.
Contact IDC (see integritydoescount.com) and see how you can be of service. Pray about making a donation.
PRAY HARD. Satan has a foothold in our church.
Thanks for asking, Concerned! :)
(offline making dinner and getting pretty for hubby) :p
THERE'S A NEW THREAD IF ANYONE'S INTERESTED.
NBBCOF
david s,
Are you the same david s who is the pastor in California of a mostly military congregation? Why the sudden change in your tone?
First of all, your facts are not straight. Secondly, I was under the impression we had already been through all of this? And had come through in a pleasing manner?
Now, all of sudden out of the middle of nowhere...you are back in the same tone you were before all of this?
I really don't wish to have to go into all of this with you again. This site seems to be moving along very smoothly and you don't need top come in here with this and disrupt it. Now do you?
With the revelation of Ace's identity, I think the flow here will now divert in that direction...don't you? God is revealing the evil...don't you see? Please join with me in praying that this will continue. Also join with me in praying for this young man and his family. Also for sickofthelies and what she is going through...again. And her family.
Ima
Chazzo,
I feel your pain. That's exactly what my wife and I went through several months ago now. We could no longer sit under SG preaching. We were constantly fault finding trying to find the hidden agenda of his sermons. I don't think I have to tell you this but there have been some with definite agendas behind them. That is the tangible consequence of SG's actions or lack there of. As someone so eloquently put it in another post his witness has been impugned to the point that the average person who isn't into blindly following someone couldn't help but come into that sanctuary looking for the hidden agenda. Put simply SG and the others are now a cause for distraction from the Lord rather than what I at least believe they should be. The prism through which we see the Lord more clearly through their actions, demeanor and prayer.
Davids, giving away NLT's is the same as not using Bibles. (big sigh)
And, I stand by EVERY single thing I have said about Rick Warren. Down to his grandstanding about giving more to Saddleback. Man-centered. Jesus must increase we must decrease.
Perhaps you could explain some of the lies he recently was caught in concerning the Syria trip?
You cannot shame me, sir, I read Ephesians. I will expose what I know first hand.
Chazzo
I agree with ju
Suggestion:Comest 9 oclock next Sunday morning if possible to Germantown Baptist.Sit in the service and you will see and discern the differnce.yes you will notice the different actions humility, the sermon without a self serving agenda and no hidden spin.I resigned as a baseball coach at Bellevue. my wife left the choir will be singing in the gbc choir soon.Many people are leaving Bellevue for other churches.We want a place where we can worship and keep our focus on Jesus.There is not only a game plan in place by Steve Gaines and his self serving ceo type buddies at bellevue but long time staff members who are willing to sacrifice truth for fear of their jobs and will blindly follow and not trusting God to provide their needs if they stand against the iLLUMNATI AND ITS HIGH PAID PRINCE or if they try to expose him.Yea I moved to the balcony to but sooner or later you will find the balcony is not high enough...Only Jesus IS!Keep your eyes on him and may the holy spirit guide you in what he would have you to do.God Bless
David, are you a Saddleback 'seminar blogger'? I have run into quite a few of them. They use your technique.
Bottom line: Warren teaches a 'different gospel' as in easy believism and cheap grace. (Not to mention Dominionism)
Warren has consistently violated Matthew 6 in the media has been caught in verifiable lies about his trip to Syria. (What he did there to the Christians is bad enough)
Warren does not allow people who question him to remain at SB. Even after the Syria trip, several were shown the door for disagreeing with it.
Relating it to the blog here: Gaines and Warren are kindred spirits.
david s said...
"You break my heart! You completely missed what I was saying, sister. Don’t you see that this is about children being hurt at Bellevue? It’s not about Rick Warren, Mac Brunson, or Carey Ace.
Ace is not the evil one, he’s a young man who got caught up in being anonymous. It is appropriate for NASS to expose ACE because his behavior was so unbecoming of a Believer. However, to focus too much on even that is to lose sight of the main issue: Serious mismanagement of Bellevue by the under-Shepherd. Right?
I do encourage you to actually check quotes you find on websites with the real thing... they don’t always match up for me..."
Okay fellow...enough is enough! Hear me...anything I say I do back up! You are the one who said you didn't go back and find exactly what I said...here is the quote from you, "SORRY, I WOULD GIVE THE DIRECT QUOTE, BUT IT'S A LITTLE HARD TO FIND THINGS WITH THE BLOG IN THE CONDITION IT'S IN". And what condition would that be? And... I break your heart? Well, excuse me! And would you please show some respect and not refer to me as 'sister'. That is a most disgusting and disrespectful remark, especially coming from a man to a woman you don't know, not to mention coming from a man who calls himself a man of the cloth!
Children being hurt at Bellevue? Would you like to explain to me what this statement is supposed to mean? I said nothing in relation to this...you totally leave me with a blank! And...you could have fooled me...I thought you WERE talking about Rick Warren and Mac Brunson? Maybe you need to go back and read your own quotes?
As for Ace...you say, "Ace is not the evil one, he’s a young man who got caught up in being anonymous." What I said was that evil is being exposed. I did not say Ace was evil! However, if you don't think an anonymous blogger who has been wrecking havoc to people in the manner in which this young man has been doing is wrong...then you have a problem yourself. He didn't get 'caught up' in being anonymous...he took advantage of being anonymous in order to add insult to injury to people posting here. Just look at what he put the blog meister through!
You say, "I apologize if I am too harsh toward you. I do encourage you to actually check quotes you find on websites with the real thing... they don’t always match up for me." If you have to apologize for saying something during the process,the best thing to do is not say it at all. You above all people, as a minister, should know this. And these quotes may not match up for you because you don't check them out first.
This is not the first time I have encountered from you a conversation that did not serve any good purpose and really made no sense. For this reason, I request that you do not direct any of your post to me again whether in the heading on within the body of the post. I will not respond to any of your post again. And I do not apologize for it.
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