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- New BBC Open Forum
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278 comments:
1 – 200 of 278 Newer› Newest»I just checked the "Integrity Does Count" website and noticed it was updated.
Under events they have a "Timeline of Factual and Alleged Events"
Interesting title.
There is another word for "Alleged Event"
It is called gossip, and the Bible calls gossip sin.
For engaging in this gossip I rebuke Mr. Coggins, Mr. Manning, Mr. Saba, Mr. Green and the others at IDC in the name of Jesus.
Derrick Calcote
dcalcote@msn.com
By the way, I don't drink either. This is a personal choice because of Romans 14:1. When we make all the decisions for people through rules and do not let them investigate the Scripture, we deny them the opportunity to grow and seek Christ concerning and issue. (In my opinion). Think about it: Which is better, a rule saying "Don't Drink..." or a conviction that says: "I'm free to drink, but I don't want anyone to stumble so I won't."
ds,
Clearly, the conviction if far better. Follow God, not men. The gospel gives freedom. Laws create bondage.
Unfortunately, only a minority of the people in church truly search God's Word for answers. Rules wouldn't be needed if we did. Unfortunately, we need them.
It is not possible to stress the importance of your support on this issue.
It is imperative that the results of this petition be delivered no later than
Friday morning, February 23, 2007, so that there will be no excuse if this action takes place on February 25, 2007.
You are allowed to sign anonymously if you prefer. It would be my personal preference to have as many names visible as possible but understand that there are cases where anonymity is necessary at this time.
Petition to Postpone Coombs Ordination
Thank you for your support. There is a link on the petition that allows you to email this petition to family and friends and it would be extremely beneficial if you would consider offering further support by passing it on.
Prior to 1957 A.W. Tozer (Keys to the Deeper Life) wrote:
"Religious leaders have adopted the techniques of the advertisers; boasting, baiting and shameless exaggerating are now carried on as a normal procedure in church work. The moral climate is not that of the New Testament, but that of Hollywood and Broadway. Most evangelicals no lomger initiate; they imitate, and the world is their model. The holy faith of our fathers has been made into a form of entertainment, and the appaling thing is that all this has been fed down to the masses from the top."
Such was the condition of American fundamentalism prior to 1957. What would Tozer write today?
Derrick,
If you would like to refute these events with evidence that proves them to be incorrect, then please feel free to do so.
Act 9:5
And he said, Who art thou, Lord? And the Lord said, I am Jesus whom thou persecutest: it is hard for thee to kick against the pricks.
What you have choose to term "gossip" the bible has termed "Truth".
The Bible clearly defines straying from the "Truth" as sin.
Proverbs 16:6
By mercy and truth iniquity is purged: and by the fear of the LORD men depart from evil.
The Bible also as referenced above is clear in the remedy for straying from truth.
"To drink or not to drink" -- that was NOT the question!
My entire issue was that there is a difference between what was reported initially regarding DC and the purchase of ONE glass of wine -- versus "bottles of alcohol sitting on the table."
Lindon could have settled this with a simple acknowledgement that the word picture she created was a misrepresentation.
Is it just Monday? I can't see why that's so hard.
David Coombs, you are taking part of something that will lead BBC into more trouble.
The problem with you David is that there is no correct way to justify wrong.
You have to be aware of the very large coverup that if allowed to continue will ruin your reputation and the reputation of Bellevue.
Bellevue Baptist Church is not the Catholic Church. I'm not sure what your background growing up was but Southern Baptist don't believe in secrecy.
You may have run a mulibillion dollar PRIVATE company where you could do anything you wanted but the Church is not a PRIVATE company.
When your company sold out recently, your shares in the company may have sold for $500,000 per share, but that will not allow you to have your way in the church.
God sees everything and He will continue to expose the wickedness that is now getting deeper rooted within Bellevue Baptist Church.
Do you really beleive that the church membership does not have the right to know how each dollar is spent inside the church?
Directors: John Addison, Jeff Arnold, Bruce Brooke, Chuck Fullerton, Tom McCormick, and Harold Shipman should be ashamed if you did in fact authorize David Coombs to sign his letter on your behalf. In the eyes of God, you are participating in something that is wrong. Secrecy in the church is wrong and you are now a part of the wrongdoing.
David, it's ashame you have to be notified of a recording so you can make sure you tell the truth. Remember that God records everything.
Tim said...
Derrick,
If you would like to refute these events with evidence that proves them to be incorrect, then please feel free to do so.
Tim, is it perhaps the responsibility of (ahem) "Integrity Does Count" to differentiate between documented and alleged events, and to buttress its own claims?
Oh, by the way--yesterday I flew to the moon, picked up some cheese, flew back home, and made a grilled-cheese sandwich with it. It was delicious. :)
"If you would like to refute these events with evidence that proves them to be incorrect, then please feel free to do so."
--Mike
mjm wrote: My entire issue was that there is a difference between what was reported initially regarding DC and the purchase of ONE glass of wine -- versus "bottles of alcohol sitting on the table."
Lindon could have settled this with a simple acknowledgement that the word picture she created was a misrepresentation."
Now you are misrepresenting me!
I made it clear in many posts on the last thread that the amount of wine is NOT the issue.
Here is a 'word picture for you:
If Coombs purchased ONE TEASPOON of WINE for someone at a restuarant and the buying or drinking alchohol is prohibited by your church standards for deacons or ministers, then Coombs violated that standard. He does not think the rules apply to him.
The issue is character not whether it was a glass of wine, a teaspoon full or a bottle that he purchased. That obviously does not bother you. So be it.
Besides, there are others who say it was a bottle. I don't care either way. The point is integrity and character.
But, quit misrepresenting me.
Mikey eats moon cheese! Mikey eats moon cheese!
To Integrity Does Count,
I noticed on your timeline you state that in the fall of 2005 "Rob Mullins Thursday night Bible Study for college students is cancelled."
The College Bible Study (CBS) was held on Monday nights, not Thursday. Since I noticed this error just glancing over the list, I think it's reasonable to assume it contains additional errors as well. I respectfully suggest that the 'draft' copy be removed from your web site until you've had a chance to finalized it.
Thank you,
Faith Jackson
Derrick Calcote and other Bellevue deacons supportive of the Senior leadership,
I rebuke you and all other deacons like you for your failure to uphold your duties as deacons of Bellevue Baptist Church. Instead, you men blindly follow, accepting the word of the senior leadership as gospel. Test everything in light of the Word (1 Thes 5:21).
Why not go to David Smith and ask his perspective? Ask him how he was treated.
Contact Rob Mullins and get his take.
Why not discuss events with Dr. Whitmire?
Give Bob Sorrell or Dr. Spradlin a call.
Have lunch with Mark Sharpe or Richard Emerson. Find out exactly what prompted them to take the stand they did. Listen to them and hear it from their hearts.
Chat with Mrs. Rogers.
Contact Chuck Hannaford and hear his take on the Paul Williams situation for yourselves.
Fully 1/2 of the deacon body and the deacon officers agree with the essential perspective of Mr. Coggins, Mr. Manning, Mr. Saba and Mr. Green. Go to your deacon brethren with an open mind and find out why they have questions and concerns about Bellevue.
Our church is dying and you men are doing nothing. Please seek answers from someone other than those known to be staunch supporters of Steve Gaines and the power group.
When this is all over, I pray you and those like you were right and we were wrong. I pray our leaders are as honest and godly as you believe them to be. For now I don't believe they are. Unless and until the church has openness and accountability I will never believe they are honest. Until that time, not one penny will be given to our church. We are holding our tithes in a special account until we know Bellevue is operated with integrity.
bbc senior citizen,
Thank you for your thoughtful post. You have blessed my heart today. I agree with much of what you said, and especially the spirit with which you said it.
Blessings,
mjm
Hello All,
I am back and I feel decent (notice I didn't say "good"!). Thanks for all your prayers - the nerve block was not scary as I thought and I highly recommend it to those of you who need one (my dr. doesn't recommend Versed to knock you out so it's not as debilitating). Thanks for all your good wishes.
I LOVE the new IDC website - God Bless the hard work going into this group.
I have a question: If God tells us we're all doing His Will, how is it we disagree so badly and point fingers at each other. I've never felt that God has told me to stop blogging or working to bring the Truth to light so, how is it that Derrick and I are so far apart in our beliefs, yet we both are in God's Will (Derrick, this is not a pick at you - I just feel comfortable in using you as an example since we've talked in person and on phone before).
Thanks!
From IDC timeline.
"Although Dr. Spradlin knew he was referring to the Bellevue situation, he was not referring directly to it and told that to James Dowd. Mr. Dowd however applied the comments directly and used them in the lead story in the Commercial Appeal published the next day. (December 19th)"
Dr. Spradlin did directly reference SG in his comments when he said:
"There's a sense of Steve Gaines being the measure of what's right and what's wrong. If you agree with him, you're right and if you disagree, you're wrong," Spradlin said. "But I think he's spent all his credibility and people are losing trust in him."
This doesn't sound "hypothetical" to me.
Praise the Lord for people like Mike Spradin that speak the truth without worrying about what man can do to him.
bepatient,
Regardless of whether Dr. Spradlin meant to direct his comments at Dr. Gaines does not change the fact that Dr. Gaines should have reported the abuse by PW back in December. Dr. Gaines admits he should have reported it back in December, so why do you choose to pick out that one tiny quote by Dr. Spradlin from the Commercial Appeal? Dr. Spradlin has done no wrong here - he voiced his opinion. That's it.
Are you that enamoured by Dr. Gaines that you would never question any of his actions? Isn't that what God gave us the Holy Spirit for? To process information and test it against what you know to be correct in the Scriptures? Can Dr. Gaines do no wrong in your eyes - ever?
karen
To BePatient,
You know me well enough to know my previous post was not meant to harm you in any way. I'm just tired of people "swallowing and following" - not you, just people I know. Test what Dr. Gaines says and does - have you EVER been involved in a church where a pastor calls people names? Have you ever been in a church where a pastor has to apologize from the pulpit for actions he's done out of the pulpit? I never have - I don't remember Dr. Rogers having to apologize to his congregation about trashing us to another congregation. What's that about? How is it that a pastor can go to a speaking engagement and TRASH his congregation? If that were the only thing he's had to apologize for, then maybe I can get over it, but NO! There is so much more - please don't be a "swallow and follow" member of Bellevue. We've been under Dr. Gaines for less than 2 years - he's on his "honeymoon" with us as pastor and people. He has broken the law 4 times, he's intermingled church and personal funds, he's sent someone to tell a member of his church to stop saying "amen", etc., etc, etc. What happens in 5 years when BBC members have given him carte blanche and he does something that directly harms your family or your personal Christian walk? Is that what you're waiting for? As long as it doesn't bother you, you don't have a problem with it? It bothers me! I have a problem with it - what do you say to me - a member of BBC since 4th grade (I'm 39 - you do the math)! What do you say to me? I'm hurting here and you want me to "get over it and find another church?" Why is there all this loyalty to Dr. Gaines (who we've known for less than 2 years), but I'm the bad guy here when I speak out about things I find to be wrong?
Karen,
The Word of God Says;
Isiah 5:18-23
18 Woe unto them that draw Iniquity with cords of vanity, and sin as it were with a cart rope:
19 that say, Let him make speed, and hasten his work, that we may see it: and let the counsel of the Holy One of Israel draw nigh and come, that we may know it!
20 Woe unto them that call evil good, and good evil; that put darkness for light, and light for darkness; that put bitter for sweet, and sweet for bitter!
21 Woe unto them that are wise in their own eyes, and prudent in their own sight!
22 Woe unto them that are mighty to drink wine, and men of strength to mingle strong drink:
23 which justify the wicked for reward, and take away the righteousness of the righteous from him!
God's Word is a Mighty Sword!
Tim,
Thanks for the Scripture - you know I'm just waiting for the "Woe" part. :)
karen
Karen,
The first time God said Woe it was as a conjuntion with the word man.;)
Oh my... no wonder that other thread was so quiet today. There was a new one!
:)
"Alleged" does not mean "gossip." Come on...
As a social worker, I have reported alleged abuse to the child abuse hotline countless times. Does that mean I need to repent for gossiping about all those people? Abuse is not proven, but the allegation indicates the need for further investigation.
Ahhhh. It's Socwork Winfrey!
bepatient,
Where did this come from?
"There's a sense of Steve Gaines being the measure of what's right and what's wrong. If you agree with him, you're right and if you disagree, you're wrong," Spradlin said.
Because it was not in that Commercial Appeal article, was it?
Thank you socwork - if you're getting compared to Oprah, then you're doing a great job.
"Alleged" needs more investigaion - any takers on that?
karen
Furthermore bapatient,
this doesn't sound hypothetical to me
Sounds like you are calling Dr. Spradlin a liar?
socwork,
that was directly from the CA article. google it.
I do not think that Mike was lying because he was technically answering a hypothetical question. I just think it is misleading to act like he did not talk about SG.
Tim, I have mentioned many times that I do question some of SG's actions. I don't understand why I am not allowed to follow my convictions (to forgive and seek restoration) without being told I am "swallowing and following".
Why is it that when you question SG's actions, you are just holding him accountable, but I when I question yours I am not seeking the truth? If we are all parts of the same body, perhaps your role is to bring thing to light about the administration- but perhaps mine and others is to point out the ways you are going about this are not benefiting the cause of Christ or BBC. Your desire is to have SG listen to what you are saying and turn away from his actions and change his path. Well, that is my desire for IDC- to realize the way they are handling this is only causing more discord.
Socwork,
Even if Mike was lying, I would forgive him too. The sum of who is as a man and the good work he has done (and will do) are more than a lie or unkind word spoken about someone else.
Has anyone contacted Brian Miller, Chairman of the Deacons, and Head of ECS as to what his position is on David Coombs purchasing alcohol? If anyone can postpone the ordination until further discussion, Brian can.
As a deacon, you're not supposed to drink or purchase alcohol. I would think that under the guidlines of being a deacon at Bellevue Baptist Church, David Coombs may not qualify as being a deacon.
John Caldwell recently chastised a Bellevue Baptist deacon who voluntarily under conviction wrote a letter to John Caldwell (since he was Chairman of the Deacon Nominating Committee). In this letter, the dear man was under conviction because he had purchased alcohol for his daughter's wedding reception. The groom's family didn't have a problem with alcohol being served at the wedding and it was potentially major trouble in their future relationship with their dauther and new son-in-law.
Although the deacon did not drink, John Caldwell came down very hard on this man and told him he may not be invited back as a deacon and reminded him of Bellevue's position on alcohol or any "appearance" thereof.
I appreciate this dear man who serves as a deacon because he came forward on his own, under conviction and let the church know what he had done. He knew Bellevue may have chosen to ask him to step down and he was willing to face the consequences of his actions. We need more men in leadership like this dear deacon. He realized he had promised to serve the Lord and His church faithfully to the duties he had agreed on earlier.
If we're going to be so lax in our requirements on ordaining a man to the ministry in our current environment, we are opening the door for disaster not only in our beloved Bellevue, but in our Southern Baptist Convention. What would be the harm in waiting until the Body of Christ was ready for David Coombs to be ordained?
bepatient,
How would you suggest IDC handle things with Steve Gaines. Matthew 18 doesn't apply to him - ask Mike Spradlin. That statement about Matthew 18 not applying to Steve Gaines came out of Steve Tucker's mouth to Mike Spradlin in Mike Spradlin's office. Numerous letters and emails have been sent to Steve Gaines without the courtesy of a reply. How do you suggest IDC handle persuading Steve Gaines to change his ways? Smoke signals? Holy water? Poison and snakes? Sorry if this sounds sarcastic, but I'm totally serious. What shall we try next?
Karen
bepatient,
It's interesting that you are able to talk to anyone either face to face or on the blog who doesn't agree with Steve Gaines.
On the other hand, Steve Gaines is the "untouchable".
Everything is onesided. It's like "we've got the keys to the locked doors and you can't see what's behind them even if you are a member."
or
"We've got control of the IMAG or we've got control of the membership list and we're going to tell our side and you can't have it or get the other side of the issues out there."
I certainly hope you don't think that's right.
Many people are starting to see the other side because of the responses that keep coming out of the administration. If there's nothing to hide, open the doors to everything. It's obvious the church leadership is hiding things they don't want made public.
This is a no-win situation. Truth will always rise to the surface and be seen eventually.
There is time to turn the Cruiseship Bellevue around if the Captain wants to. Otherwise, the iceburg is dead ahead.
truth or lie,
Bryan Miller, as an educator was obligated to report the abuse done by PW - can we really expect him to have a steadfast conviction on alcohol?
And before someone says it, Bryan Miller was an educator before he was an administrator at ECS. Somewhere along his career as a teacher, he had to be told to report abuse.
karen
There is time to turn the Cruiseship Bellevue around if the Captain wants to. Otherwise, the iceburg is dead ahead.
"The Love Boat - soon will be making another run...."
Oh, sorry! Couldn't help myself!
karen :)
bepatient said...
"From IDC timeline.
"Although Dr. Spradlin knew he was referring to the Bellevue situation, he was not referring directly to it and told that to James Dowd. Mr. Dowd however applied the comments directly and used them in the lead story in the Commercial Appeal published the next day. (December 19th)"
Dr. Spradlin did directly reference SG in his comments when he said:
"There's a sense of Steve Gaines being the measure of what's right and what's wrong. If you agree with him, you're right and if you disagree, you're wrong," Spradlin said. "But I think he's spent all his credibility and people are losing trust in him."
This doesn't sound "hypothetical" to me. "
___________
25+ says:
Bepatient,
The timeline reference is being skewed in your post. Dr. Spradlin did not call for that interview. He did not bring up the PW situation. He responded to the reporter's hypothetical question. After that the reporter moved the interview from hypothetical to concrete.
Dr. Spradlin did not lie. As far as unkind words go, the truth does sometimes hurt. But there have been many unkind words fired at those who do not agree with BBC's pastor. They are being used by the devil, you know. They are depicted as going home and drawing pentagrams on the floor. Unkind words? Try beyond the pale.
So far as Dr. Spradlin's estimate of the situation at Bellevue in the quotations included later in the article--if represented factually by the reporter--I would say that much of the christian community, many throughout the SBC, and even the surrounding community in the Mid-South would agree.
Just look at the numbers for the last few months (attendance in worship and giving)--that is if you can find them.
jmo
Hey Karen,
Since Bellevue has yet to comply to state law, perhaps a lawsuit should be filed in order to make them comply? Thats the only thing I see that will make Gaines and co. wake up and smell the roses.
BTW, you got mail :).
koragg,
Ask the leaders of IDC that one - I'm not too sure about lawsuits.
karen
BePatient,
The "follow and swallow" statements were not mine, so you might want to ask someone else about it. Furthermore, I have never given you a hint of suggestion that you should not follow your convictions. You just need to realize that they are not shared with everyone. There are a number of members that have not been presented with the truth as you have. These people need to be presented with the truth as well and given the opportunity to follow their convictions based upon the knowledge of the truth.
The church has set up every road block imaginable to prevent this from happening. There even those that support these road blocks to the truth and have determined that the truth is not a just cause for communicating with other members of the church.
I seriously doubt that there would be a majority of members patting David Coombs on the back and saying, "Ata way Guy!" if they were aware that his "no stone unturned" investigation denied the victim the right to speak, even after it had been requested on multiple occassions. The church could easily conduct a business meeting and have these issues aired at any point that they choose. Why do they fear the truth? What objection does anyone have to the truth being revealed?
Forget the wine; if this dude headed up the PCIR, then that failure alone is his stinking albatross.
Yeah, please continue parsing whether it was a bottle or glass.
Ugh!
Oh...
As for the term alleged....
Its not gossip. Someone arrested for robbery is considered an alleged robber until convicted. And like someone else said, that means more investigating has to be done.
Why have we had so many "ministers" serving on staff who could not preach a sermon if they had to? If we are going to have business men on staff instead of true pastors who have studied and prepared to be preachers, then why don't we be forthright and call them that instead of "Associate Pastor", "Executive Senior Pastor", etc.? I think it's deceptive and improper, and it certainly gives the wrong mental image. "Ordaining" somebody doesn't change somebody into a pastor. No wonder people get upset when the Associate Pastor or Executive Associate Pastor don't know how to handle certain situations in a kind, loving, and Christian manner. These guys are not pastors! It's pretty shocking when the "pastor" turns out to be a hard-nosed grouch or a bull-headed blowhard. Now, I'm not pointing any fingers at any particular person, but if the shoe fits--wear it. My main point, though, is WHY? There are a lot of fellows out there taking the time to study the Word of God at MABTS--just right across the street from BBC--and they probably can't even find a church to minister in when they get done; while on the other hand, we've got Good Buddy Bob (not intended to be a real name) over there who needs a JOB because he doesn't like the insurance business anymore or the company sold out or closed down so we just give them a position because we think they're nice. I believe in being charitable; but, brothers and sisters, we have a higher calling and one that carries a life-or-death responsibility with it. This is serious--more serious than any job on earth I can think of. Picking out favorites or somebody's son or best friend and making them a pastor by ordaining them is not being responsible. One must be a good steward as the pastor-picker, too. Being a pea-picker and a pastor-picker are two way different jobs. However, I'm not saying either that a person should be disqualified for being a friend, a son, or your personal pea-picker--just that it should not be the only reason for being hired at a church as a pastor. I also don't think sending them to seminary AFTER we let them have a position as a pastor should be acceptable either. In my mind that's cheating. Even though God allowed Enoch and Elijah to enter heaven without seeing death here on earth, well, HE is GOD. WE are not so endowed to see a man's heart. We need to stop this practice at Bellevue. I don't know what questions, if any, that the search committee asked Steve Gaines or anybody else (if there was anybody else); but next time I think I would like to be on that committee and do the asking part--not because I'm so good--but because then I'll know it got done. I can pray, too. (In fact I have already gotten an answer to prayer about who the next pastor should be and I don't even know him--not yet, anyway.) I would also ask a lot of questions of the sheep of His old flock/flocks about how he treated them and other important things(good background checks). If the one who was brought to you turned out to be incapable or negligent or less than forthright with us or just plain ole bad, then he would be gone, gone, gone. I have another good idea, too. I'll get to it later.
JESUS IS LORD AND I LOVE HIM!
Dee
Again, I do not think Mike Spradlin lied. I do think that he made a personal comment about his views on SG that should not have been made in the Commercial Appeal.
I believe that if God is calling for you to remove SG or turn him away from the choices he has been making, God would open a venue or path to you that did not involve airing the "dirty laundry" before the world or taking it before the courts. That is why I have said I think that while you you may have good intentions and motives, you are trying to force this into your own timeline instead of being patient and allowing God to show you a path that doesn't involve hurting people and further damaging the witness of BBC and the church in general.
Dee,
I think your on to something. Until this David Coombs situation arose, I always thought ALL pastors were ordained. Or at least are attending seminary.
BePatient,
That way is Mt. 18...
It has been repeatedly blocked.
imo
offline
Well, my friends, it is time to say goodbye. As of yesterday morning, we are no longer members of BBC, Inc. (That would be "30,000" minus 5 for the bean counters at BBC.) What a glorious, refreshing day, although tinged with the sadness that I could never have previously imagined even thinking that leaving BBC would be a time of happiness.
I shall commit myself to extricate myself from this blog and post no further comments.
To Mr. Calcote and others of a like mind, I borrow a phrase from an ex-deacon friend who left BBC last year: "If it's worth that much to you, then you can have it."
To my fellow truth seekers who are called to continue the fight, may God's blessings be upon you as you fight to have the Truth revealed. If the Truth of what has really transpired is ever revealed, you will be needed to rebuild the walls that will most certainly crumble as a result.
In closing, let me toss out (again) a quote by Giordano Bruno (16th century philosopher) that I find most applicable to the BBC situation: "Truth does not change because it is, or is not, believed by a majority of the people."
I'm Ed Thompson, and I approve this final message on the blog.
be patient,
I understand your point about airing dirty laundry, but please consider the fact that all avenues had been tried and forming IDC was a last resort. Why do you think it's taken so long for "someone" to do "something"? I've heard this comment over and over and so now "someone" is doing "something" about it.
Since other people didn't step up to take the wheel on this process of getting to the truth, why do you critize the way in which it is being done? Did you try to talk to the pastor? Did you talk to anyone in leadership? Leaders in IDC did and got nowhere; so they chose another route.
BTW, I should have said something when you addressed your comments to Tim about "swallow and follow". Those comments were mine, but not directed at you personally. I write a lot of stuff in the rhetorical, not necessarily requiring a response from anyone specific.
karen
Ed T.
Godspeed, sir!
Again, I do not think Mike Spradlin lied. I do think that he made a personal comment about his views on SG that should not have been made in the Commercial Appeal.
bepatient, what should he have said? "No comment?" What message would that have communicated? I think the consequences of saying that would have been worse that the clear statement he made. Can't you just imagine the "gossip" that would be going on if the president of MABTS said "no comment" when asked about his pastor? Scandalous!
I believe that if God is calling for you to remove SG or turn him away from the choices he has been making, God would open a venue or path to you that did not involve airing the "dirty laundry" before the world or taking it before the courts.
Seriously? But Matthew 18 does not apply to the pastor, so what's a person to do? There certianly don't seem to be any open business meetings to discuss these things. And, Mike Spradlin did not air anyone's "dirty laundry." He was asked a rhetorical question, which he answered appropriately, as he did the follow up questions. To blame anything on this man is beyond me... why would a reporter need to ask the president of a seminary about what should be done of a pastor knowingly kept a pedophile on staff for six months without telling anyone or reporting him???
That is why I have said I think that while you you may have good intentions and motives, you are trying to force this into your own timeline instead of being patient and allowing God to show you a path that doesn't involve hurting people and further damaging the witness of BBC and the church in general.
Who is being hurt here? Steve Gaines? Who is hurting the witness of Bellevue really? To infer that Mike Spradlin has anything whatsoever to do with damaging the witness of Bellevue by airing dirty laundry defies all logic, imo.
Bepatient,
OK, i've had about enough of your 'beating around the bush"
In 25 words or less, tell us EXACTLY how to go about getting the attention of leadership, when they REFUSE to follow Matthew 18.
You seem to be critical of the way it is being done, so, tell us how to do it.
If you don't have a plan, please do not criticize us.
Calcote, that goes for YOU too.
Mr. Coggins,
By your own words you are saying that some of the events are "alleged," making it gossip.
Even though there are quite a few things on your list that I know with certainty are untrue, it should not be up to me or anyone else to refute the gossip that you put forth. You should simply obey the scriptural admonition against gossip.
Derrick Calcote
dcalcote@msn.com
If ONLY SG had a FRACTION of the integrity that Mike Spradlin has.
Just a small fraction...say, .000000000001%
Sadly, he doesn't. Steve Gaines does not know the definition of the word. Neither does David Coombs, or Steve Tucker, or Harry Smith, or any of the other musical chair committee heads.
I"m sick of it.
You guys all need to pick up your dust covered Bibles and get out of OUR church.
To that, i would say, GOOD RIDDANCE.
Calcote,
You said to Tim:
You should simply obey the scriptural admonition against gossip.
SOTL says:
Where do you admonish SG for allowing a pastor to stay on after he admitted to raping his own son?
You would admonish someone with no authority, such as Tim, yet, you back up SG unconditionally, even when the SAFETY of children is at stake.
SHAME ON YOU.
You need to head on out the door with the others.
I'm so sick of you and your kind with your attitudes I could SCREAM.
You sit there with pursed lips and folded hands finding fault with everyone EXCEPT those that are in leadership.
GO AWAY!!!
Ed-t said in his farewell message to us all,
"If the Truth of what has really transpired is ever revealed, you will be needed to rebuild the walls that will most certainly crumble as a result."
****
What you said above is what I am somewhat afraid of, but not totally cast down about. I just hope it happens. I hope that Wonderful Light comes pouring down on that dirty old mess and scorches the unrighteousness right out of it. Hallelujah!
Yes, it sure will take some rebuilding. Will you come back and help us if you see us in need? Yeah. You would, because you know what? If you've been on the blog with the rest of us all this time, then we know who's side you're on and we will be looking for a few good men and you'll be missing us and thinking about us.
Idea #2--This fits in perfectly right here. Thank you very much, ED! When we get that new pastor in here, why don't we make it TWO? Why don't we have co-pastors to hold each other accountable and to share in the mountain of work that will need to be done to restore Bellevue. We are going to need someone good with missions to get busy getting back to the real thing. We'll need someone to smile and encourage and restore and clean any leftover litter that might be hiding in the dark corners of BBC. (It goes without saying that they will both have to be good teachers of the Word and who love Jesus with all of their hearts.) Tough but not too tough. Just tough enough. Lots of other good reasons for it come to my mind, but, please, this time let's not overlook LOVE. We all know that the Word tells us in 1 Cor. 13 that if we have not love, we have nothing. Read that chapter again and just see what all "love" entails and that we often find lacking now.
We could probably have three pastors and pay them all well for what we are paying ONE. We will most likely be needing to replace some staff members who will also be gone by then. I would like to nominate Tim Coggins for whatever is the highest other job after the co-pastor job. All of you brave men on this blog need to be going to seminary so you will be prepared to fill these life-changing pastoral positions as so needed. I could say a lot more but, brothers and sisters, start thinking and making suggestions. We have a lot of great Christian thinkers on this blog who can make it all happen WITH THE HELP OF THE LORD. Pray everybody. I am getting excited. A change is coming! Ed, you may have left just a little too soon--BUT you do know you can always come back if we get to fix this AND we may need you to come back and help. Okay? OKAY.
JESUS IS LORD! AMEN AND HALLELUJAH!
Dee Richardson
It would seem logical that if one can't or won't refute what has been termed as "gossip", then it could only be termed "alleged" gossip, no?
david s says:
am sure you will have an uproar of support for such comments. I submit that if you want to see change, you should demonstrate it. Don’t demand a regenerated heart from your pastor when you demonstrate such deep unforgiveness.
SOTL says:
And what would you have us do? Politely go into David Coombs or Steve Gaines office and request an appointment so that we may discuss Matthew 18?
Why don't you go and ask Mark Sharpe and Richard Emmerson what happened when THEY tried that.
YADA YADA YADA..leadership has absolutely NO intention of being transparent about anything and YOU know it.!!!
So stop admonishing us. When you suggest that we follow biblical guidelines to aire our grieveances, you must be saying it with tongue in cheek, knowing FULL WELL that is NEVER going to happen.
Leadership has a sweet deal. Total secrecy and $30,000,000.00
I think that ME saying " go elsewhere" doesn't even BEGIN to equal the number of folks that leadesrhip had told to go away.
Do not quote your dust covered bible to me.
I have one with no dust on it.
If steve Gaines had dusted his off when Paul Williams admitted to him that he RAPED HIS SON, he would have had a POLICY and would have known EXACTLY what to do.
Do not address me further if you are going to make some pious remark.
You need to address your leadership first. Then you can talk to me.
Derrick Calcote,
Everybody can stay, but just not in the positions they are in. That would only be a few men actually which is not too earth-shaking.
By the way, do you know David McKinley?
Dee
It would seem logical that if one can't or won't refute what has been termed as "gossip", then it could only be termed "alleged" gossip, no?
Hm... thinking... I think you might be on to something there.
Let me clarify again-
I personally would have said "no comment". He felt led to comment, but he should have left off the personal comment about credibility. If he didn't say that, then I would think that he would demand that CA retract those quotation marks around it.
I am not beating around the bush. I don't know how to fix the situation- I just know that beating people over the head with your Bible and questioning their salvation, etc. is not going to do it. How do you see this ending?? This has become a war that only one side can "win"- that shouldn't be the case.
I know that maybe if we weren't all so caught up in frustration and anger (righteous or not) perhaps some might be able to find a more peaceful resolution. That goes for both sides.
derrick calcote
If you are so concerned about the truth and facts, why don't you appeal to the leadership to release the truth and the facts that they are required to release by law? Getting to the facts around here is like hunting for a needle in a haystack and as hard as pulling teeth.
Think there might be a reason for that? Hmmmm?
"Don’t demand a regenerated heart from your pastor when you demonstrate such deep unforgiveness."
Now, that is rich.
Bepatient,
Let the record reflect that was more than 25 words and you still have no solution.
David S.
You, and your leadership have lost ALL credibility.
Oh, they were admonished? Where are the consequenses for their SIN??
Jamie Fish, Web Williams and Steve Gaines all get to keep their jobs.
Continue to defend them.
You're gonna have to answer for it.
But now you must rid yourselves of all such things as these: anger, rage , malice, slander, and filthy language from your lips." Col. 3:8
Go tell THAT to your leaders that you blindly follow and swallow.
SOTL said to be patient
You seem to be critical of the way it is being done, so, tell us how to do it.
Piglet says:
Don't waste your breath, SOTL. We've been down that road with these folks many times.
The SG supporters want us to sit on our hands and do nothing. They say to "let God handle it".
Reckon these people vote on election day, or just hope God's man will somehow just "end up in office"?
Do they go out to work, or look for a check from God in the mail every day?
Do they discipline their children or just pray harder when they misbehave?
Surely they are more responsible in their personal lives than they would lead us to believe.
david s said
Once again, those of you primarily concerned with SG’s conduct are now yourselves wishing people would leave. But you are upset when the pastor and others state that “if you don’t like it here, leave.”
Piglet says:
These people are openly and proudly exhibiting sinful behaviours and attitudes.
As a pastor, you should be well studie don Matt. 18. At the end of this list of steps to deal with conflict in the church it says if a brother does not repent he should be treated as a heathen.
These are not personal offenses against one individual but a slap in the face of the entire church body for which they are unashamed and continue to do.
david s says:
admonished MY leadership about an issue of gossip recently. We then took the Lord's Supper.
SOTL says;
THAT's IT? That is your issue with leadership? Of all the things they have done, THAT'S your issue?
You didnt' feel the need to admonish them over oh, lemme think:
1) climbing the fence
2) John Caldwell not apologizing to this day
3) Steve Gaines sending men out to admonish an ' amener"
4) Steve Gaines trashing his congregation to another church.
5) David Coombs refusing to follow Tennessee law, and stating that he doesn't CARE what Tenn. law says.
6) Refusing to interview the victim in the Paul Williams saga.
7) Steve Gaines sending PW merrilly away after he confessed to RAPING his son.
8) Steve Gaines stating that he was unaware of what Paul Williams' job was in the church so he did not know that anyone would be further victimized. ( if you believe THIS, i have some beach front property in ARizona i'd like to sell you)
9) David Coombs' letters he sent out this weekend. Interesting that he can send out one sided info but will not allow another side to practice Matthew 18
10) Leadership refusing to hold an open, transparent business meeting.
And that's just for starters.
And you had an issue of Gossip with leadership? LOL!!!
I"m sure they were horrified that someone might think that they
(gasp) gossipped!! Why, it's not like they ALLOWED A PEDOPHILE TO STAY ON STAFF OR ANYTHING LIKE THAT!!!!
What source or sources do we have to confirm the David C. wine affair???
Please tell me??
David S. says:
By acting crazy like you are you delegitimize your own cause. You may have valid (very valid) concerns.
Sotl says:
And there you have it, folks.
Derrick Calcote,
This question is not meant to be mean-spirited, but in the future it should just be a matter-of-fact, and expected for congregational trust--
So the forum will understand whether you have any conflict of interest or not...
Could you please speak to whether Continental Trophies receives any business from BBC? Do you have any "business" connection with BBC otherwise--or with key members of the current leadership?
TIA
imo
note to self:
Do no business with Continental
Trophies
yeah, where do they get all those trophies that they give out to kids on all the sports teams?
Thats quite a lot of trophies!!!!
I believe the trophy company sells to distributors who then resell their products.
I believe Derick may believe that since he recently became a Deacon, he some how is important.
I can appreciate what Derrick is saying when he is questioning Tim and his group about integrity. When one knows the absolute truth to a situation and sees it reported in error on Integrity Does Count what conclusions should one draw? Do Tim and his group hold themselves up to the same standards that they hold others? I would expect that the IDC group would be the first to retract any misinformation that is on their site.
I have read the posts written by sickofthelies that are mean spirited toward David Coombs, a man she doesn’t even know on a personal level. I have known this man for a number of years and can attest to his love for Jesus and that he is a man of integrity. No he is not a perfect man but he lives a life based on God’s Word. I know that she has been hurt in her life but David Coombs should not be receiving the wrath that she has directed toward him. Her bitterness shows in her postings. Where is Christ’s love in her postings?
And finally the wine issues….David was there with a family gathering. Unknown to him his sister in law ordered one glass of wine. He paid the full bill for his family not knowing that the wine was even on the bill. He like most of us looks at the total amount and if it seems reasonable doesn’t dissect the bill item by item. There were a number of people at the tables in that David has a very large family group.
What source or sources do we have to confirm the David C. wine affair???
Please tell me??
Are there really witnesses???
Just a question, and this is in response to the post on having co-pastors's to help hold each other accountable.
And I am not trying to be smart or argumentative. I am merely posting as an outside observeer that does have family that attends Bellevue.
In the event that Pastor Gaines leaves Bellevue, who do you suppose would want to come into this situation and deal with the parties involved?
If he changes anything at all will there be another SavingBellevue site? Another IDC because he doesn't do something exactly the way a person wants him to?
And please, keeping a pedophile on staff for 6 months after he was found out was wrong, no question, no doubt. So please don't hammer me over the head with that - I agree he was wrong. For 17 years persons other than Pastor Gaines knew and did nothing. If heads roll for that issue, his shouldn't be the only one.
But the majority of the issues with Pastor Gaines were other issues.
I fully expect the "it's none of your business" slap since I don't attend Bellevue, but I have read a number of the psots on this site about the issue and just had a comment.
derrick calcote,
As a deacon at Bellevue you should be about the business of not worshipping an idol in Steve Gaines or your Bible Fellowship teacher Steve Tucker but Jesus Christ. Christ is Truth and you are not about the business of seeking Truth but you are involved in cover-up. Your earthly medals you are trying to earn here on earth will not be recognized in heaven.
What I am saying to you is said for your concern and out of love. It would behoove you to either seriously search for the truth or resign being a deacon. To do otherwise is dangerous for you and the church.
As a deacon, you should be concerned over a staff member who is being considered for ordination. David Coombs used the scripture to beat the sheep over the head. This tactic has often been used from the Bellevue pulpit to the dismay of the congregation. Much further harm has been done by the letter sent by Bellevue.
The $6,000 plus Bellevue used to send this letter out to the members should never have been spent. Once again, a squandering of the Lord's money has taken place. A simple insertion into the bulletin would have done but I'm sure the leadership thought not that many would see it.
David Coombs misused this scripure in his letter. Please address David Coombs and the Deacon body on behalf of the membership to correct this error in judgement.
Read Proverbs 11:1 - "The Lord abhors dishonest scales, but accurate weights are his delight.
11:2 - When pride comes, then comes disgrace but with humility comes wisdom.
Might I remind you that God is concerned with honesty, integrity, truth, and righteousness in the marketplace. That's what we have been talking about since Steve Gaines had the dream and started jumping fences.
Deception in the church is wrong and you have publicly refused to allow members seeking truth to have questions answered and books opened.
David said this:
"Proverbs 11:3 says, "The integrity of the upright will guide them." But let's not forget the second half of that verse: "But the crookedness of the treacherous will destroy them."
Proverbs 11:4 - "Wealth is worthless in the day of wrath, but righteousness delivers from death."
Money can't buy righteousness in God's economy and the Truthseekers believe David Coombs is describing the current leadership of Bellevue.
David,
I would rather be thought of as acting crazy than to sit silently by and let sin and evil be minimized and written off by supposedly educated,godly people....leaders no less. We are very familiar with scripture being used to beat those down that have righteous anger towards SIN and corruption.Why don't you first make sure those leading the flock are following it....all of it...
Ok, I just got the nerve to make a phone call and there were witnesses to the DC wine affair.
It did happen and there were only a few people at the table and the witness tried to meet with DC about this. I was told DC would not meet.
End of story and just as i though, it is true!
JMO,
I do know DC personally and he was mean spirted to me just because he could be.....not part of living a godly life. He has had many opportunities to apologize for his ungodly behavior towards me...I would have received it...he hasn't and won't for the same reason he was chosen (not called) for the position he is in now....because he is a BRUTE.
Just My Opinion says:
I have read the posts written by sickofthelies that are mean spirited toward David Coombs, a man she doesn’t even know on a personal level. I have known this man for a number of years and can attest to his love for Jesus and that he is a man of integrity.
SOTL says:
First of all, I have requested that you scroll past my posts. However, since you have not respected my request ( no surprise there) I will respond to you once again:
DAVID COOMBS LAUGHED IN MY FACE, THERE ARE WITNESSES TO THIS AND HIS SUBSEQUENT DENIAL. You were not there, and yet you would piously sit there with your pursed lips and folded hands and try to convince us that it did not happen, that we did not see and hear what this man did.
This is NOT what a man of integrity does.
He has not ONE OUNCE of integrity. NOT ONE.
If you cannot understand this, its a character issue for you and all the arguing in the world is not going to MAKE you understand what integrity is.
I hope to raise my son better than this, so that he will UNDERSTAND what integrity is.
"In the event that Pastor Gaines leaves Bellevue, who do you suppose would want to come into this situation and deal with the parties involved?"
That is the best question ever asked on this blog. The answer is very simple: Someone poor in spirit, who mourns over their sin and takes 1 Timothy 3, Titus, James and 1 Corninthians 5 seriously. Ah, shoot, someone who believes in sola scriptura and Christus Solus.
He cannot be in it for the money or fame or use it as a stepping stone to bigger and better things.
He believes in worshipping in Spirit and Truth.
He has a regenerated heart no matter what other people's sins are. Or what others do to him.
He is obviously going through continual sanctification because you can tell he is growing in Holiness daily. He is different than the world. it is very obvious.
He considers the pastor's role as a servant role. He goes after one sheep if they wander away.
His knees are calloused because he is a prayer warrior. He would be willing to lose his life for the cause of Christ. Since he believes that Christ must increase and we must decrease this is evident in his daily life. He knows scripture and LIVES it.
He sins but is totally broken by it. Even the very small ones that we would not think twice about. He publicaly confesses his public sins. He does not veer off the path (Matthew 7) much because he belongs to God. Hebrews 11-12
He would have cried over it but he would have fired PW immediately. He would open the books and give minutes to any brother or sister who asked to see them. It is Christ's church. His Bride.
He understands the Priesthood of the Believers and knows that ALL saints are annointed. He knows that he is just one part of the Body made up with many parts with many God given gifts.
He is totally transparent. There is not an 'acting' bone in his body. Who he is at home is who he is at church. He loves his wife as Christ loved the church and would be willing to die for her.
He is a good steward and agonizes over decisions about tithe money making sure they are prayerful decisions including the congregation.
Finally, he believes EVERY word in scripture is God breathed. He would rather die than ignore Biblical commands and precepts and agonizes over that daily.
He has joy in Christ. And a peace in Christ that passes all understanding.
He is your man. And they are out there...you just have to look.
Steve,
RE: winegate:
Steve Tucker was sent out to try to convince the orchestra during a
"communications meeting" that what David Coombs did was not so bad. Even though his own idol, SG, has preached, NOT ONE DROP.
At first Steve Tucker said he didn't know anything about it, and then, a few seconds later, miraculously remembered that he, himself, had actually discussed it with David.
After that, came the rolling eyes, and the painful defense of David Coombs.
I, personally, do not drink.. I am nobody at the church. I am certainly not an associate pastor. But i would NOT sit at a table in public with wine, I don't care if it was a teaspoon or a gallon, because having had alcoholics in my family, I would NEVER want to cause someone else to stumble.
But that's just me. I suppose that David Coombs, with his wealth and power can do as he pleases.
The rules don't apply to him, anymore than they apply to Steve Gaines or the BBC millionaires club.
2006Huldah: AMEN to your 4:10 post! (I'm just catching up). Finally....black and white plain talk. A Pastor is called specifically by God for the roll of being a shepherd. It's not a business decision. It's a spiritual decision.
david s. said,
I did like Josh M. approach: go to the office and ask for the records they are required by law to hand over. I liked (someone's) idea of going forward on Sunday's to speak with the deacons.
reply: How did that work out for him?
Derrick,
What dictionary are you using? When the nightly news reports "allegations" against someone that have resulted in an investigation, do you accuse them of gossip? To "allege" something to make an allegation. They have the same root.
Allegation is not a synonym for gossip. Allegations have a basis and are what start an investigation. Several people -- we know their names -- have brought allegations. It is proper to say the concerns are alleged. The leadership has consistently refused to allow any forums where many of these concerns could be easily proven true or false. They refuse to follow the clear proscriptions of Matt. 18. This has only worked against them, lending credence to the allegations which are now widely perceived to be true. Do you know of any evidence to the contrary (and by evidence I do not mean flat denials)?
Brother, I love you. I truly do. But I must ask, when are you going to start standing for truth and stop giving the administration of BBC a free pass? Want to have your eyes opened? Start asking some questions. Don't simply accept pat answers, but dig a little. Start with some allegations, like the dream. Yeah, run that one to earth. If something doesn't jibe, don't let it go. You will soon find yourself on the outside looking in and will probably be told "maybe you should find yourself another church."
Piglet,
You have mail...
softballguy44 said
If he changes anything at all will there be another SavingBellevue site? Another IDC because he doesn't do something exactly the way a person wants him to?
Piglet says:
If you've been reading along theselast several months you would not ask this question.
This blog and IDC are not about differences in taste but about sin in the pulpit. I hope we will never rest until we have a humble blameless servant to shepherd us.
It is not impossible. We've had that since the first days of Bellevue in Lee, Pollard, and Rogers.
We also have some festering corruption in our leadership that needs to be dealt with. This is why they are hiding th books in contempt of the law.
David S,
My "previous discernment" saw SG's comments as arrogant and not what a caring pastor would think...or say. When SG thought nothing of letting a predator remain in the ministry and thought more highly of himself than those he should protect ...I called that sin.
david s,
so Jesus was wrong?
"He has not ONE OUNCE of integrity. NOT ONE." writes sickofthelies.
Not one ounce...I can just feel the anger in your pen. May I suggest that you seek help with that anger! I read where people on this blog praise your comments but I know of One who does not praise your comments. I don't mean this to sound trite or uncaring but you need to seek someone to help you with your anger and bitterness. There is no way that others who are honest in their hearts and minds cannot read the bitterness that SOTL pens.
lindon, God has those men out there. He has men called to His service. BBC doesn't need a "mega-pastor" they need a Man of God. Your description was beautiful, especially the "priesthood of the believer" part. He would respect his congregation because he would know that God speaks to us all if we just listen.
Padroc said: I actually do not know how I would respond if a gun were pointed at my head and told to disavow Christ, but I know what many others have done and it has been the Lord Jesus himself who gave the power to endure as they suffered with Christ in death.
I know. You would stand for your Lord and Savior and die if necessary. Once you belong to Him you CANNOT deny Him. Have that assurance! "He is with you always, even until the end of the age" no matter what.
david s said:
How did flipping tables in the temple work out for Jesus? got him crucified I believe. Don't stand for anything if you're not ready to take heat for it.
SOTL says:
I guess that is the difference between you and me. I will take my last breath screaming from the rooftops that giving $25,000 to a church that supports abortion and homosexuality is wrong. I would rather DIE than to defend SG for giving a free pass to PW, and allowing him to freely roam the halls of BBC, where he can torment other children.
I see things as RIGHT and WRONG. I will stand alone if necessary. You call it crazy. I call it righteous.
SOME PEOPLE are afraid to speak out for fear of retribution. Men who are deacons are acting like girls. They keep silent when BBC gives money to places that do not represent biblical principles. I will NOT be silent.
The bbc millionaires club, and the deacons club and others can sit in the corner and suck their thumbs.
I WILL NOT DO IT.
Dear David S.: My brother I have just read your admonishment of SOTL and gmommylv. Your comments are what we as victims have been saying is wrong. We are crying out for justice. But I sincerely doubt we will see it.
I have said all along, this report and the handling of the PW situtation have hurt many more people than the leadership of Bellevue will ever reallize. It has not done one thing to restore trust with victims.
You ask how? First when the victim asks for something, he is denied. Denied numerous times. What did he request that would require him being denied his request? Not money, but just a meeting. That is all.
So we as victims see this. How does that makes us feel? Then we find out that our VERY confidential records are in the hands of someone we NEVER authorized to see them. Dr. Gaines may have called him but we did not. We never agreed for him to see those records.
Can you see the anger beginning to boil? Then we have to sit there following a Sunday evening service when this report was read and it was told to us that NOT ONE STONE WAS LEFT UNTURNED. Really? We ALL know the TRUTH about that.
David, I work with many victims and I speak for many victims. There are some that are members of BBC that cannot speak out. I am their voice. Trust me if they could or were to speak out, NASS would have to turn on the moderation again. If you think that SOTL or gmommylv are so bad, you haven't seen anything yet. These dear victims are hurting so bad. So when you go off and tear apart a victim, make fun of them, call them names, you are hurting them even more. I wish you would see that.
I think some of you will remember the discourse that "jury" and I had last week. I will NOT sit back and let a victim be re-victimized again without speaking out.
I am going to address the Deacon officers with my concerns over the report and how the leadership mishandled this situation. I doubt anything will happen. But they must know that David Brown is not happy with the report or the handling of the entire situation.
I wish someone would tell me how this report helps a victim? I still have NOT heard how it did. It may have eased some of your minds with a bunch of excuses but it did nothing for us victims. And that is a fact. As far as righteous anger, you haven't seen anything yet. Trust me on that on.
David S., if you want to call someone names or make fun of them, please use me. I will help you. I am getting too old, my hair is falling out, teeth are falling out, need new glasses, my waist size is too big, I am ugly, on and on. Please pick on me instead of STOL or gmommylv. Call me too judgmental, too righetous. Call me whatever you want but leave those two dear sisters alone.
SOTL and gmommylv, I love you two. My heart goes out to both of you when I hear the hurt in your words. I wish I could do more, but I can't. I am sorry for failing you. But, I can be in prayer. David S. would you join with me in praying for these two victims and the other too?
God bless you all.
David Brown
SNAP coordinator of West Tennessee & Memphis
jmo writes:
"He has not ONE OUNCE of integrity. NOT ONE." writes sickofthelies.
Not one ounce...I can just feel the anger in your pen. May I suggest that you seek help with that anger! I read where people on this blog praise your comments but I know of One who does not praise your comments. I don't mean this to sound trite or uncaring but you need to seek someone to help you with your anger and bitterness. There is no way that others who are honest in their hearts and minds cannot read the bitterness that SOTL pens.
SOTL says;
And YOU need to get some help for arrogance and defending sin.
david s,
please understand SOTL has been deeply and personally offended by DC. Of course SOTL is very angry, and rightfully so. Give some grace in this instance and understand this and leave her alone. Now, I have said this without 'screaming'. Please honor this request.
I now have it on good authority that Richard Emerson and his family are the ones who witnessed DC and the wine affair.
It really did happen!!
JMO
SOTL is hurting because of the things this leadership have done to her personally. Yes, she is very emotional.
She has healing to do and it is difficult when those who have hurt her are not sorry and continue to do it and then defend their actions.
It adds insult to injury when those in support of the current "regime" make excuses for them.
The sheep are hurting. They are scattered. They are starving for nourishment, safety, and nurturing.
My heart breaks for SOTL because I have not suffered her pain. I can only love her and pray for her.
imaresistor said on the previous thread:
I was told by somebody on this blog that Bellevue was in process of building a prayer center which would house a labyrinth. Is this still in process, completed...what? What is the present status on this?
Piglet says:
Finance Guy first brought that to our attention. TWO love offerings ago we were told money was needed for a "prayer chapel". I don't remember the proposed plans but FG said there was a labyrinth in the sketch.
$30,000,000.00 is sitting in the bank and still no prayer chapel.
Of course, if a labryrinth is what they have in mind, I'd rather do without. But my guess is they are hanging on to the cash because giving is down and people are leaving.
I'm not sure what the long range planning committee is doing these days....
Steve,
I understand this was a large party including people in his family. One lady ordered an alcoholic drink. DC picked up the entire tab. He paid with his own personal card; it was not charged to the church. Maybe you think he should have rebuked her and refused to pay for the drink, but I think that would have been ungracious. Who among us doesn't have black sheep in the family who just don't "get it"? I'm thinking of one in my family right now.
I really don't believe we need to go to the mat over "winegate". There are so many other issues.
To quote 25+Yrs, "JMO"
all2jesus
I agree that the wine issue appears to fall under a "lapse in judgement" where the actions of DC in regards to the misleading investigative report and his refusal to release documents are evidence of serious problems in his moral character.
His cooperation in covering up the truth at BBC should make him unworthy of ordination.
Piglet...
I am not a drinker so it is odd to me. If you are a drinker , then maybe it would be ok for you, i dont know??
I understand it was just a few people at the table.
Yes, let's get off the 'wine' thing. As has been said, there are much bigger issues at stake.
IF the winegate was the ONLY thing that we could discuss about DC, it would not be worth discussing.
It's the constant drip drip drip coming from not only him but the rest of the so-called leadership that is disturbing.
FOLKS - THERE ARE CURRENTLY 52 SIGNATURES ON OUR PETITION.
PLEASE EMAIL OR CALL ANY ACQUAINTANCES WHO ARE UNAWARE OF THIS PETITION!!!
SOTL,
You OK?
Steve
For the record - I am not a drinker. I have a hard enough time making rational decisions. :)
I can see that one took a group out for dinner and someone ordered wine it could present an awkward situation that could be mishandled by someone who is otherwise a godly man.
This can be debated.
The other issues pertaining to DC are glaring in comparison.
I'm not upset that you mentioned it at all. I just don't want these larger issues to get lost in the debate.
oc,
THANKS for asking about me. I"m good. I"m just getting tired of the defense of the indefensible.
Aliens have taken over my church and made zombies of men and women that I once respected.
I"m glad that Dr. R. is not here to see how readily people are accepting sin in the pulpit these days. Not only do they accept it, they defend it.
The church is corrupt. How long before it is no more?
Folks,
There have been few times that I have posted because there has not been a need. Relevant information has been covered without my input. There is work being done within the deacon body and the numbers willing to take a stand may shortly be shown.
There is something that I can tell you beyond doubt that is having an impact and drawing quite a bit of attention. You should make it a point to sign this petition as soon as possible and forward it to as many other members as you can.
Coombs Petition
There is quite possibly only a short time before this petition will meet the demise of the first one. The leadership is well aware that each visible signature represents approx. 20 other members and each anonymous signature represents about 5. At this time there are 48 signatures (33 visible and 15 anonymous). This represents about 735 church members and the concern over this one item is growing by the minute.
There is another issue that you should be aware of. The budget committee for the fiscal 2007-2008 year is facing a rather difficult dilemma. It appears that for the first time in the history of the church they are facing a budget shortfall for the 2006-2007 year and may have to reduce the total projected receipts for the 2007-2008 year by as much as 20%. That decrease is equal to almost the entire missions budget.
Facts from the past two years budgets:
2005-2006 2006-2007
Receipts 20,645,911 21,881,222
Salaries 10,987,567 12,085,548
53.21% 55.23%
Changes between the two Years
Admin Sal. + 374,202 +35.39%
Discp Sal. + 59,381 + 2.39%
C-Prog Sal. - 64,658 - 6.77%
Music Sal. + 81,375 +11.45%
Oper Sal. + 227,434 +20.65%
Faculty Sal. + 301,482 +20.66%
Pastoral Sal. + 264,087 +14.19%
Missions Sal. - 145,322 -10.72%
The current projections for the 2007-2008 indicate that 68.55% of the total receipts will be paid in salaries alone. It is probable that the projected receipts for the upcoming budget will be grossly inflated so that this short fall will not have to be dealt with until this time next year.
"There is no way that others who are honest in their hearts and minds cannot read the bitterness that SOTL pens"
Bepatient: Since day one of reading your comments, your 'style' of wording has reminded me of Hillary Clinton. This is exactly how Hillary publicly disagrees with her political advesaries.
I detected frustration and outrage from sotl over the actions of men who are supposed to be Shepherds. And those who attack anyone who questions. Rightly so. Someone commented that her past should not have anything to do with her outrage toward DC and his subsequent treatment of her at church. Or that her comments showed an unforgiving heart toward SG. Hogwash. That has nothing to do with it. That is a straw man to deflect attention away from your unregenerate idols.
I think David Brown touched on that well. He has seen the cover ups, the treatment of victims for years. This is nothing new to him.
Don't get sldetracked on the wine issue. It is only a mere tip of the issue at hand.
My sincere thank you to Amos and EZ for pointing me to scripture than enhances discernment.
Always challenged. :}
SOTL,
I'm glad you're OK. And I do understand. I think that this present pain will work out for the good, though. This is the 'mean time', and it IS a MEAN time. Hang in there. I'm praying.
DeaconBeacon,
Thanks for bringing those figures to light. Keep up your good work - it will not go unnoticed.
karen
deacon thats a beacon,
Thanks for you help. When will the next budget be voted on?
David S: Can you not fathom WHY SOTL and gmommylv are so passionate in their feelings? They are appalled that a "lapse in judgment while in uncharted waters" possibly put other children at risk! They want no one to go through what they have been through! How willing would you be to give a free pass if a child you loved was taken advantage of during that 6 months that the pastor of your church knew he was harboring a pedophile?
oc,
I loved the comment on "mean time". I commented to Tim earlier today that I'm waiting for some "Woe" to happen.
Karen
Ecclesiastes 7:8 Better is the end of a thing than the beginning thereof: and the patient in spirit is better than the proud in spirit.
Deacon,
Can we ask questions about the budget prior to the day before we approve the budget?
Question: Has Coombs ever taught a Bible study or SS? If so, did he exposite or use a prepared workbook?
Who here can ask him his view of Matthew 23: 8-12?
Ecclesiastes 5:8 If thou seest the oppression of the poor, and violent perverting of judgment and justice in a province, marvel not at the matter: for he that is higher than the highest regardeth; and there be higher than they.
"The current projections for the 2007-2008 indicate that 68.55% of the total receipts will be paid in salaries alone."
BBC: Welcome to the GCM! Where ministry is a path to the good life!
So, it totally makes NO sense to hire an associate pastor with only business experience and no seminary training. (But, we all know that SG is really hiring a chief of staff) Any ideas on what his salary will be?
Proverbs 19:5 A false witness shall not be unpunished, and he that speaketh lies shall not escape.
Whether or not DC has taught or not, IM(very)HO, he still does not meet qualifications to be ordained.
And you are right, welcome to a CGM church where salaries, not missions or discipleship, get all the money.
Proverbs 15:16 Better is little with the fear of the LORD than great treasure and trouble therewith.
Proverbs 16:8 Better is a little with righteousness than great revenues without right.
concernedSBCer said...
David S: Can you not fathom WHY SOTL and gmommylv are so passionate in their feelings? They are appalled that a "lapse in judgment while in uncharted waters" possibly put other children at risk! They want no one to go through what they have been through! How willing would you be to give a free pass if a child you loved was taken advantage of during that 6 months that the pastor of your church knew he was harboring a pedophile?
I've been saying this for a long time now: Wait until something the leadership does affects you personally or spiritually and see how readily you are to come to their defense? How readily will you give forgiveness and reconcilliation then? Most of those in IDC had no idea who each other was before they had individual "checks" in their spirit, so it's not like a gang of rabble rowzers were in place when Steve Gaines came to BBC. God brought us together - there's no other way to explain it.
I don't wish it on anyone to be hurt by Steve Gaines and the BBC leadership, but if you've been hard nosed against those of us who have had problems with leadership for awhile, I really feel sorry for your when (not if) you get hurt. It's just a matter of time before everyone at BBC will be affected in some way. Mark my words.
karen
Piglet says:
If you've been reading along theselast several months you would not ask this question.
This blog and IDC are not about differences in taste but about sin in the pulpit. I hope we will never rest until we have a humble blameless servant to shepherd us.
Softballguy44,
I have been reading the blog, and in all cases I don't think that your statement is totally correct.
Not everyhting brought up has been sin in the pulpit. Some of it has been dislike of change and how it was brought about.
Proverbs 15:27 He that is greedy of gain troubleth his own house; but he that hateth gifts shall live.
softballguy,
please state for us ONE thing on this blog where the problem was one of change.
That is NOT what this blog is about.
You sound like my former SS teacher at BBC who, even after the fence fiasco, tried to tell our class that " it's just a handful of disgruntled people who don't like the music"
Quoting thusly and like so, "Bitterness is an acid that destroys its container."
Quoting again, thusly and like so:
Ephesians 4
26 Be ye angry, and sin not: let not the sun go down upon your wrath: 27 Neither give place to the devil. 28 Let him that stole steal no more: but rather let him labour, working with his hands the thing which is good, that he may have to give to him that needeth. 29 Let no corrupt communication proceed out of your mouth, but that which is good to the use of edifying, that it may minister grace unto the hearers. 30 And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption. 31 Let all bitterness, and wrath, and anger, and clamour, and evil speaking, be put away from you, with all malice: 32 And be ye kind one to another, tenderhearted, forgiving one another, even as God for Christ's sake hath forgiven you.
--Mike
Proverbs 29:2 When the righteous are in authority, the people rejoice: but when the wicked beareth rule, the people mourn.
Proverbs 29:7 The righteous considereth the cause of the poor: but the wicked regardeth not to know it.
Proverbs 29:12 If a ruler hearken to lies, all his servants are wicked.
Proverbs 29:16 When the wicked are multiplied, transgression increaseth: but the righteous shall see their fall.
Mike,
Do us all a favor, would you, and send those verses to the so-called leadership.
softballguy44 said: Some of it has been dislike of change and how it was brought about.
If the change was brought about through the ignoring of scripture, then it is still sin. If scriptural qualifications for leadership are not met, there is a problem. If men leading are not called by God, then there is a problem. If the Truth is not being lived, spoken, or taught through actions, there is a problem. Sin is sin. This is not about change, unless you consider the change away from a Godly walk.
concerned,
WELL SAID!
NASS
Since the David Coombs petition is so important, would it be possible for you to highlight the topic on the front page of the forum so that people can see it as soon as they log in? We need this to be front and center. Thanks.
I wonder how much we paid the lawyers for the PW report? I guess that came out of tithes, too.
Can you imagine how much good that money would have done on the mission field? Or how much the Union Mission downtown could have used that money? Or what about Life Choices? Or the seminary? Or LWF?
The salary that we paid to PW " so he would cooperate" as David Coombs said to me ( i have it on a recording) could have been used to feed hungry children here and abroad.
The money that was given to CUMC, what of that money? Are we now supporting abortions and homosexuality? Did they, in turn, make a donation to planned parenthood?
Is this how we want our tithes spent?
I wouldn't give one more dime to BBC until they clean up their mess.
There are plenty of good places that can use your tithes. Send it to the seminary. Send it to LWF. Send it to Life Choices. Send it to Union Mission.
Just don't give it to folks who don't pray over what they are doing with YOUR money.
We are to be good stewards of our money.
Is giving it to BBC, in the current condition, being a wise steward of your money?
Before vs 26-32
Ephesians 4:17-25
17 This I say therefore, and testify in the Lord, that ye henceforth walk not as other Gentiles walk, in the vanity of their mind,
18 having the understanding darkened, being alienated from the life of God through the ignorance that is in them, because of the blindness of their heart:
19 who being past feeling have given themselves over unto lasciviousness, to work all uncleanness with greediness.
20 But ye have not so learned Christ;
21 if so be that ye have heard him, and have been taught by him, as the truth is in Jesus:
22 that ye put off concerning the former conversation the old man, which is corrupt according to the deceitful lusts;
23 and be renewed in the spirit of your mind;
24 and that ye put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness.
25 Wherefore putting away lying, speak every man truth with his neighbor: for we are members one of another.
Thought that I would add what was left out. It just seemed too important to leave out.
The part about vanity of mind, darkened, ignorance, blindness, lasciviousness, greediness, TRUTH, corrupt, deceitful,
RENEWAL, RIGHETOUSNESS, HOLINESS, TRUTH.
I was told that a lady in our church, upon hearing about the $25,000 check to CUMC, called the pastor's office to ask if this was true or if it was a rumor.
She was told, " I dont' know, we can't keep up with every $25,000 check that goes out of here"
IS this how you want your sacrifice regarded?
Bepatient said...
Let me clarify again-
I personally would have said "no comment".
BP, I hope you do not teach BSF (Bible Study Fellowship). This idea of "No Comment", which David Perdue also subscribes to is a great problem with Christianity today.
NO ABSOLUTES. To that, you have lost my respect.
Derrick Calcote said...
I just checked the "Integrity Does Count" website and noticed it was updated.
Pingboy has returned. Why are you going to these sites in direct disobedience of your pastor? He has warned the congregation of these websites and called us kooks. Now you have disgraced your pastor and are considered a KOOK by his own words.
With that said, I believe you still have a bright future in leadership. Hang in there.
Ed_T said...
Well, my friends, it is time to say goodbye. As of yesterday morning, we are no longer members of BBC, Inc. (That would be "30,000" minus 5 for the bean counters at BBC.) What a glorious, refreshing day, although tinged with the sadness that I could never have previously imagined even thinking that leaving BBC would be a time of happiness.
I shall commit myself to extricate myself from this blog and post no further comments.
My dear Brother Ed,
God is faithful. Follow God!
BBC is also 5 less of my family.
I grieve for BBC and the Christian Community. However,
1 Corinthians 4:5
Therefore judge nothing before the appointed time; wait till the Lord comes. He will bring to light what is hidden in darkness and will expose the motives of men's hearts. At that time each will receive his praise from God.
I do believe God will expose the many obvious, proven, factual things that have been done in darkness. God will expose the hearts of these men.
Christian, wake up. This is coming to a church near you!
SOTL said:
Just don't give it to folks who don't pray over what they are doing with YOUR money.
A gentle rebuke, my sister, before someone else does it. Once you give it, it's the Lord's money. I'd say there's even more peril in mishandling that.
OF TRUTH
Proverbs 3:3 Let not mercy and truth forsake thee: bind them about thy neck; write them upon the table of thine heart
Proverbs 8:7 For my mouth shall speak truth; and wickedness is an abomination to my lips.
Proverbs 12:17 He that speaketh truth sheweth forth righteousness: but a false witness deceit.
Proverbs 12:19 The lip of truth shall be established for ever: but a lying tongue is but for a moment.
Proverbs 14:22 Do they not err that devise evil? but mercy and truth shall be to them that devise good.
Proverbs 16:6 By mercy and truth iniquity is purged: and by the fear of the LORD men depart from evil.
John 1:14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.
John 1:17 For the law was given by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ.
John 3:21 But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God.
John 4:23 But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him. 24 God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.
John 8:32 And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.
John 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.
John 14:17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.
John 17:17 Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth.
Romans 1:18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness
1 Corinthians 13:6 Rejoiceth not in iniquity, but rejoiceth in the truth
2 Corinthians 13:8 For we can do nothing against the truth, but for the truth.
Ephesians 5:9 (For the fruit of the Spirit is in all goodness and righteousness and truth;)
1 Thessalonians 2:13 For this cause also thank we God without ceasing, because, when ye received the word of God which ye heard of us, ye received it not as the word of men, but as it is in truth, the word of God, which effectually worketh also in you that believe.
2 Thessalonians 2:13 But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth
Oops, I almost forgot Mike B.
I have never met you, but, You fit your part well.
There is a difference in asking forgiveness and confessing being caught.
I cannot speak for all of those on the blog as Derrick Calcote speaks for BBC congregation. However, I for one long to see brokeness. I would also like to see it followed up with repentance, a change in direction. I would gladly and quickly become a fan, again.
For those that do not understand. Go talk directly to these BBC Ceo's. Have specific questions to ask. Look on the IDC sight and pick some questions. Pick the ones that you believe are the most "misleading". When you leave, see if your questions were answered.
This is the theme over and over. I personally never looked for a reason to leave. I could never get an answer. I spoke directly to these men. I would have never ever, no never, believed it.
They had a responsibility to help me understand. They said "you just don't trust us".
Yes, they did help me understanding. The Holy Spirit has helped me to discern that... I really do not trust these men. You know what? How can I trust these men when I cannot even trust myself.
Now, after all this time, they have confirmed. There is no trust.
Pastors who make CEO salaries...
This is not uncharted.
2 Corinthians 2:17
Unlike so many, we do not peddle the word of God for profit. On the contrary, in Christ we speak before God with sincerity, like men sent from God.
"One witness would not agree to be interviewed except in a group setting. Ultimately, the "Team" felt that asking the questions it wished to ask could not be done properly and confidentially in such a group setting, and therefore, the "Team" decided not to interview this individual. Although the individual was a significant witness, the "Team" felt that the information this witness might have offered basically was corroborative of what other witnesses had stated. The absence of this interview was not a problem for the investigation." Notice the use of The word "TEAM" BEING USED AT BELLEVUE Now....I saw what used to be the Parking Ministry at Bellevue Is now composed of "Saftey "TEAM" on the Green Vests of the "Team" directing traffic Sunday.Instead of being "One in the Bond of Love" now we are "One in the Bond of TEAM".This is a common ploy in the businees world to use the word "TEAM" to unite workers in a common goal.I see this being implemented by the current worldly Elders who rule Bellevue now.Committes Team this Committe that...Whats next ?Camera Team?Choir team? Praise the ordanation Team?{Opps!I am a freind of God in repeative verse 777 times in a ordantion, coranation pastueraztion ceremony?)How about the libray team?If a book is late we could spend $6000.00 on mail outs of the new Late fee Search Committee.....Folks our church has bee Hijacked by self serving men. you will continue to see this confusion more and more as this is the fruit of Warrenism.Of course steve has never read the book....But funny how we are more and more becoming a open transparent purpose Driven church?Or dare thar I say "A Purpose Driven "TEAM".....
OF PRIDE
Psalms 10:2 The wicked in his pride doth persecute the poor: let them be taken in the devices that they have imagined.
3 For the wicked boasteth of his heart’s desire, and blesseth the covetous, whom the LORD abhorreth.
4 The wicked, through the pride of his countenance, will not seek after God: God is not in all his thoughts.
5 His ways are always grievous; thy judgments are far above out of his sight: as for all his enemies, he puffeth at them.
6 He hath said in his heart, I shall not be moved: for I shall never be in adversity.
7 His mouth is full of cursing and deceit and fraud: under his tongue is mischief and vanity.
Proverbs 11:2 ¶ When pride cometh, then cometh shame: but with the lowly is wisdom.
3 ¶ The integrity of the upright shall guide them: but the perverseness of transgressors shall destroy them.
Proverbs 13:10 ¶ Only by pride cometh contention: but with the well advised is wisdom.
Proverbs 14:3 ¶ In the mouth of the foolish is a rod of pride: but the lips of the wise shall preserve them.
Proverbs 16:18 ¶ Pride goeth before destruction, and an haughty spirit before a fall.
Proverbs 18:12 ¶ Before destruction the heart of man is haughty, and before honour is humility.
Proverbs 21:24 ¶ Proud and haughty scorner is his name, who dealeth in proud wrath.
Proverbs 29:23 ¶ A man’s pride shall bring him low: but honour shall uphold the humble in spirit.
Mark 7:20 And he said, That which cometh out of the man, that defileth the man.
21 For from within, out of the heart of men, proceed evil thoughts, adulteries, fornications, murders,
22 Thefts, covetousness, wickedness, deceit, lasciviousness, an evil eye, blasphemy, pride, foolishness:
23 All these evil things come from within, and defile the man.
1 Corinthians 10:12 Wherefore let him that thinketh he standeth take heed lest he fall.
1st Timothy 3:2 A bishop then must be blameless, the husband of one wife, vigilant, sober, of good behaviour, given to hospitality, apt to teach;
3 Not given to wine, no striker, not greedy of filthy lucre; but patient, not a brawler, not covetous;
4 One that ruleth well his own house, having his children in subjection with all gravity;
5 (For if a man know not how to rule his own house, how shall he take care of the church of God?)
6 Not a novice, lest being lifted up with pride he fall into the condemnation of the devil.
1st John 2:15 Love not the world, neither the things that are in the world. If any man love the world, the love of the Father is not in him.
16 For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world.
OF LYING AND BEARING FALSE WITNESS
Exodus 20:16 Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbour.
Psalms 31:18 Let the lying lips be put to silence; which speak grievous things proudly and contemptuously against the righteous.
Proverbs 6:16 These six things doth the LORD hate: yea, seven are an abomination unto him:
17 A proud look, a lying tongue, and hands that shed innocent blood,
18 An heart that deviseth wicked imaginations, feet that be swift in running to mischief,
19 A false witness that speaketh lies, and he that soweth discord among brethren.
Proverbs 10:18 He that hideth hatred with lying lips, and he that uttereth a slander, is a fool.
Proverbs 12:17 He that speaketh truth sheweth forth righteousness: but a false witness deceit.
Proverbs 12:19 The lip of truth shall be established for ever: but a lying tongue is but for a moment.
Proverbs 12:22 Lying lips are abomination to the LORD: but they that deal truly are his delight.
Proverbs 13:5 A righteous man hateth lying: but a wicked man is loathsome, and cometh to shame.
Proverbs 14:5 A faithful witness will not lie: but a false witness will utter lies.
Proverbs 17:4 A wicked doer giveth heed to false lips; and a liar giveth ear to a naughty tongue.
Proverbs 17:7 Excellent speech becometh not a fool: much less do lying lips a prince.
Proverbs 19:5 A false witness shall not be unpunished, and he that speaketh lies shall not escape.
Proverbs 19:9 A false witness shall not be unpunished, and he that speaketh lies shall perish.
Proverbs 21:6 The getting of treasures by a lying tongue is a vanity tossed to and fro of them that seek death.
Proverbs 21:28 A false witness shall perish: but the man that heareth speaketh constantly.
Proverbs 25:18 A man that beareth false witness against his neighbour is a maul, and a sword, and a sharp arrow.
Proverbs 26:28 A lying tongue hateth those that are afflicted by it; and a flattering mouth worketh ruin.
Ephesians 4:25 Wherefore putting away lying, speak every man truth with his neighbour: for we are members one of another.
Revelation 21:8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.
davids said...
"... And my response was:
“By acting crazy like you are you de-legitimize your own cause. You may have valid (very valid) concerns.”
I don’t think she was victimized."
David,
If SOTL reacted THAT strongly and THAT emotionally, then she was wounded - even victimized again. I believe that one of the problems is that someone who has never been abused or victimized does not understand the depth of emotional suffering and pain that a victim experiences. A lifelong pain that remains in the forefront of life. It is the same condition that a soldier and disaster victims experience. It is called "post traumatic stress" syndrome and it is always present, lying in wait to surface. I would like for you and others responding so callously here to please do some homework on the subject so you may be able to react appropriately to the victims if you are going to post here.
James 1:19 Wherefore, my beloved brethren, let every man be swift to hear, slow to speak, slow to wrath
James 3:17 But the wisdom that is from above is first pure, then peaceable, gentle, and easy to be intreated, full of mercy and good fruits, without partiality, and without hypocrisy.
Proverbs 15:1 A soft answer turneth away wrath: but grievous words stir up anger.
Proverbs 25:11 A word fitly spoken is like apples of gold in pictures of silver
all2jesus said...
"Once you give it, it's the Lord's money. I'd say there's even more peril in mishandling that."
Very well spoken! That money is sacred. It is money given out of love, obedience and sacrifice to the Lord. It is HIS money and they are accountable for the way they handle it. It is not theirs to spend. They have already admitted that they do not pray over the financial decisions (25K to FUMC), yet they continue to handle it with dirty hands.
I don't want to be standing nearby when He says "STOP"!
The saddest thing of all to me is that when the Lord moves and brings their house tumbling down, we will all feel great sorrow and loss for them. Quite unlike the distain they feel for us.
We will be praying for them with anguish, they will be angry over being caught.
25+ years & others,
It is odd that people are choosing to publish the name of my company. It frankly seems to me to be somewhat of an invitation to harassment.
But to answer you question, no, my company has never sold anything to the church. Our only business dealings with the church or anyone connected with it are as follows:
1) We purchase our company Christmas cards from the church bookstore, and have for years.
2) Out of love and respect for Mrs. Rogers at her request, I purchased a large quantity of track batons that she has given in conjunction with the "Adrian Rogers Pastor Training Institue." These were sold the ARPTI at our cost.
3) Out of love and respect for Love Worth Finding ministries and our many friends over there, and at their request, we have done the occasional project for them. Most recently we did some custom medals with medal stands. Again, these were sold to Love Worth Finding at our cost.
As memory serves, that is it.
Derrick Calcote
dcalcote@msn.com
DeaconBeacon,
God Bless you! You are in a tough spot, and we are praying for you! We so need information like this! Folks, keep signing that petition!
Thankyou, sir, for deleting your 9:49 post.
David S said: I know exactly what post traumatic stress syndrome is, and it’s not on the Bellevue blog.
David, David.....*shakes head*....it sounds like you are very well-informed on the daily traumas our soldiers in uniform face. It does also sound like, however, that you know nothing of the betrayal felt by a child who has been abused, usually by the people who are supposed to love them the most in this world, and those that are supposed to protect them. In war, our soldiers face the enemy. (My dad is career Air Force; I know what I'm talking about)With childhood abuse, the enemy is your father, or brother, pastor or priest, or many times another person you trust. Also, please consider the differences of an adult dealing with a horrific situation and a child having to deal with the unthinkable.
Try, please try, to understand, or at least empathize, with those who have sustained this kind of hurt. This betrayal, and agony, begun in childhood and lived with for the rest of their life does warrant compassion.
davids,
Please don't attack my intentions regarding our soldiers. My father went to his grave feeling the blood on his hands, with schrapnel still in his head from 1948 and my brother and cousin both actively served and were wounded in their service, both living with 100% disabilities at this very moment. I have heard the stories and seen the pain, and I have picked up pieces of their lives in support of them,so you don't have anything on me dear brother, I have seen THEIR eyes bug out, quite different when it is immediate family rather than someone you visit then go home. But, the military is NOT the only place that this syndrome exists and it has many faces.
I sympathize with your position, but your "pastoral" hostility is showing. Perhaps you need to do some MORE homework or drop your accusations.
Davids, you sure you are a pastor?
Davids "Don’t relate what a bitter woman does to what our Marines have gone through. Your freedom to write on this blog is defended by men who truly suffer incredible stress and never whine, never complain and never tell anyone to get out of their church.
And by the way, these men who really do suffer from this, never ever ever use the word “victim.” They feel ashamed that they suffer from post traumatic stress syndrome. They don’t talk about the war. They don’t tell their wives what they’ve seen. They tell their pastor, in private. I know exactly what post traumatic stress syndome is, and it’s not on the Bellevue blog. "
Also by Davids:
"I hope you will remove such comments from your thoughts, as well as your spoken words. (matt. 12:36)
“If anyone sees his brother commit a sin that does not lead to death, he should pray and God will give him life.” 1 John 5:16
"Don’t demand a regenerated heart from your pastor when you demonstrate such deep unforgiveness."
Esther response: Huh?
“My brothers, if one of you should wander from the truth and someone should bring him back, remember this: Whoever turns a sinner from the error of his way will save him from death and cover over a multitude of sins.” James 5:19-20
"But now you must rid yourselves of all such things as these: anger, rage , malice, slander, and filthy language from your lips." Col. 3:8
"Righteous anger never gives us right to respond in sin."
"Moses was punished for his display of childish anger. Why? becuase there were serious issues to confront and he didn't want to do it God's way. to do the right thing the wrong way... is still wrong. it's still compromise."
" The opportunity to forgive, reach out and truly show Christlikeness is in front of you. Take it. "
Esther writes: so, sotl is just 'bitter' about being abused? Are you SURE you are a pastor?
David S said: My concern is that if you remain this hostile and do not articulate your concerns better, you will not gain a hearing of any kind. You'll be blown off.
I believe the concerns have been very clearly articulated in an extremely scriptural manner. They have been ignored...many times.
Mike Bratton said...
Quoting thusly and like so, "Bitterness is an acid that destroys its container."
Mikie,
If you only knew the hearts of the people here, you would not say that any one is bitter - you would see that there is much pain, sorrow and loss.
David, Have you read this blog? Or did you just start a couple of days ago? (I don't mean to sound unfriendly; truly, I am sincerely asking) You might want to go back and catch up some. SOTL has a story that (might) break your heart. There are personal accounts of BBC members trying to go to the pastors in view of Matthew 18. Believe me; the personal accounts contained on this blog will completely unnerve you. It is all about TRUTH.
deacon thats a beacon said:
Facts from the past two years budgets:
2005-2006 2006-2007
Receipts 20,645,911 21,881,222
Salaries 10,987,567 12,085,548
53.21% 55.23%
Changes between the two Years
Admin Sal. + 374,202 +35.39%
Discp Sal. + 59,381 + 2.39%
C-Prog Sal. - 64,658 - 6.77%
Music Sal. + 81,375 +11.45%
Oper Sal. + 227,434 +20.65%
Faculty Sal. + 301,482 +20.66%
Pastoral Sal. + 264,087 +14.19%
Missions Sal. - 145,322 -10.72%
The current projections for the 2007-2008 indicate that 68.55% of the total receipts will be paid in salaries alone.
Deacon, do you know if these salary totals also include medical/life insurance, retirement, housing/auto allowances, and other benefits given out?
Thank you.
Kelly S.
davids,
This is the "accusation" I was referring to:
"davids said...
"... And my response was:
“By acting crazy like you are you de-legitimize your own cause. You may have valid (very valid) concerns.”
I don’t think she was victimized."
Davids: "My concern is that if you remain this hostile and do not articulate your concerns better, you will not gain a hearing of any kind."
Which part do you not understand? This has been going on for a year and no hearing,no meeting, NO talkie, no answer questions, either. No showing the tithers the financials, the meeting minutes, etc. Why? The last guy who tried your suggestion, a deacon, got run out of town on a rail. JM even even taped them saying NO NO NO!!!
Which part of this do you not understand? You remind me of the liberals who think we can hold hands with the Islamists and make peace. They don't want peace!
Time for a 'hearing' is over. Kaput. The powers said NO. They don't care. You don't get that: They do NOT care.
They know they can build a disney church and attract lots of seekers if they could just get rid of these resistors to sin.
It is called, 'riding it out'. I have seen it before. They have the power, the influence and for the time being, the money. And if they can contain this, they believe they can ride it out. You probably do not have any idea how arrogant and self deluded leaders can be. They can, trust me. And there are the sycophants who follow blindly until it affects them personally...and it will eventually.
So the solution to all this? SG is bringing in a much needed hatchet man to ride herd, close ranks and ensure staff loyalty. He is 'ordaining' this businessman in Feb.
This is not new...it is done in Corporate America all the time. And churches are following suit. This ain't the only church in the US that is experiencing a 'hostile' takeover. It is going on all over the place. And, it ain't about the music.
Padroc: The companion to love is truth: Speak the truth in love. I pray that is what we as Christians do. There is a movement now where you must not tell anyone they might be wrong because instead you must love them. However, Love and Truth go hand in hand.
Esther: Here, Here. Excellent Post.
Proverbs 11:9 An hypocrite with his mouth destroyeth his neighbour: but through knowledge shall the just be delivered.
Proverbs 12:5 The thoughts of the righteous are right: but the counsels of the wicked are deceit.
Proverbs 12:13 The wicked is snared by the transgression of his lips: but the just shall come out of trouble.
Proverbs 12:17 He that speaketh truth sheweth forth righteousness: but a false witness deceit.
Proverbs 12:21 There shall no evil happen to the just: but the wicked shall be filled with mischief.
Proverbs 14:8 The wisdom of the prudent is to understand his way: but the folly of fools is deceit.
David S,
While scores of concerned staff, lay leaders, and congregation have gone to Steve Gaines, Mark Dougharty, Chuck Taylor, Steve Tucker, Harry Smith, Brian Miller, Jeff Arnold, John Caldwell, and now David Coombs quitely to discuss concerns, they have all been "blown off" as you say.
Now, we have deacon officers who are raising questions to the same men and they are being
"blown off."
This method has worked for so long, it's the best technique for them to use. The problem is that the masses are starting to see for themselves that not being open and honest with answers is fueiling the reality that things aren't right.
When anyone tries to take it to the next level, they are riduculed and slandered by the pastor and his leadership team as trouble makers. This is right out of the playbook used by PDC and Steve Gaine's own history at other churches.
Until the pastor and his leadership team repent of their wrong, the days ahead are going to grow darker and darker.
Truth or lies, David S, Esther, Amos, SOTL, and everyone else: Have a good night's sleep.
Offline
david S said...
Mom 4,
Well, that's true. I don't think she was victimized in that conversation. I'm not saying she was never victimized in her LIFE.
10:18 PM, February 19, 2007
I understand, but you still sound rather "snide" over her situation. Compassion really, really would be nice, especially from a pastor.
Please take this opportunity to let the Church know that you believe that we are headed in the wrong direction.
You are allowed to sign anonymously if you prefer. It would be my personal preference to have as many names visible as possible but understand that there are cases where anonymity is necessary at this time.
It is time to let your voice be heard.
PETITION
Thank you for your support. There is a link on the petition that allows you to email this petition to family and friends and it would be extremely beneficial if you would consider offering further support by passing it on.
"When the church is operating within its bylaws, with business meetings, other issues can be dealt with."
Maybe you or Mr. Bratton can get them to give you a recent copy of the By-laws?
What you say, Mike?
Tim
Thanks for posting the petition again. I'm concerned that not enough people are seeing it. I have asked NASS to please put it on the Forum front page for easy access. I looked earlier on the Savingbellevue site and it was not there either.
Esther said...
" It is going on all over the place. And, it ain't about the music."
Well Esther...you have brough me out of Lurking Land! I have just been reading and weeping!
My, my! How many times on this very blog have is said, "THEY WILL STOP AT NOTHING!!!" How many times have I said that???
When I read the 'events' section of the IDC, Inc. website this morning for the first time, I said to somebody, "Purpose Driven Mania!...this is the Purpose Driven Church Movement and those who cannot see it just simply DO NOT want to see it!" It is like watching people idly walking off the edge of a cliff to their deaths! And you try and try, but cannot stop them. It is the most insane dilemma I have ever heard tell of. Those of you who are trying...don't give up; I know the battle is getting old. Those of you walking in the dark, please wake up.
Dear David S. You say that when SOTL is shouting or screaming it takes away from her creditility.
Can you understand her frustration when someone like myself asked to meet with Dr. Gaines and he refused to. How about when she is aware this victim asked to meet Dr. Gaines repeatedly and was denied. And then this dear young man had to suffer hearing his father's name mentioned that following Sunday.
We have tried the calm, collected manner and that has not worked. So some of us are shouting on the blog here and some are shouting out in prayer as King David so often did.
I do understand about PTSD. What some of these victims suffer is so much worse than that. I wish some would spend some time reading the blog of Christa Brown to better understand our frustrations. On the front page of this blog, you will find her link.
David S. I ask that you do that. I also asked you to join me in prayer for these victims, will you?
Mike B., brother, God Bless you. You just don't get it. Your answer to a victim of sexual abuse when they speak out is to tell them they are wrong and too bitter. Then you beat them over the head with Scriptures. Do you ever wonder why they don't listen to you? Does it make you feel better when you tell them off as you did tonight? I pray it does not.
These dear victims were not only abused physically but emotionally too. Their very inner core has been torn apart. Their whole value system has been turned upside down. I call it soul murder. The very ones they trusted the most, abused them. It is a walking nightmare.
I do praise my God for allowing me endure the pain and suffering I have. I have been through the valley of darkness and I have come out on the other side. But it took me over 44 years to get here. I didn't just wake up one day and said it is all over. And I am still healing. It take a lot of time and a lot of prayer.
I do have a special prayer request. My middle son, Kevin is heading to Iraq in less than 60 days. He was saved at Bellevue at the old church in 1987. I pray he returns safely but whatever happens, he is in God's hands.
I am headed to bed. God bless you all.
David Brown
SNAP coordinator of West Tennessee and Memphis
"My, my! How many times on this very blog have is said, "THEY WILL STOP AT NOTHING!!!" How many times have I said that???"
Ima, the problem is that people do not believe that until it is too late. We have both seen it happen and we know they will stop at nothing. Because we have seen how they operate. Some people think if you put the word 'Christian' on it, it makes it ok. That is like putting lipstick on a pig. It's still a pig.
Churches are becoming the new power centers. Mega's and emergents are springing up everywhere. It is nothing to go from 300 to 3000 in a few months now when you give them what they want...entertainment and repentless Christianity.
You and I both know what they are thinking...We can just ride this out... nail the resistors as 'divisive' troublemakers while we only want 'harmony'and 'unity'. Say the words, but don't walk the talk. Worked for Clinton!
It works because so few people know scripture..and so many live our their beliefs through a mere man...and they really buy into the false unity pitch. But, you and I know there is NO unity outside of the Word. Scripture IS the unity.
BBC has had it's blaring red flag of 'false teacher' when the pastor ignored very basic biblical precepts and commands over PW. That was just basic. 1st year seminiary stuff. Yet, he continues to defy the Word.
And this 20+ year pastor did not know what to do. Hmmmm.
David, Kevin will be remembered in my praying.
David S.
I have been sitting here reading your posts from this evening, and I have decided that you and David Coombs could be good friends.
David Brown,
We will pray for Kevin, and thank him for us. I'm not a man of many words, but please express to him the gratitude and pride we have towards him. God bless him, and you also, friend.
To any IDCers out there,
If I pay $30 to join IDC can I get a membership list? Because I still don't know who the Board is....
Even Bellevue publishes the list of names of the people on the Board. I don't understand the need to keep it secret.
Bro. Derrick,
Thank you for your transparent response. It was refreshing. I did not mean to bother you about that matter, but I couldn’t help but wonder what your full agenda might be for rebuking the men mentioned in your post at the top of this thread.
The day is coming in my opinion that the kind of question that I asked will be received in the way it was offered—sincerely as a way to avoid the kind of conflict BBC has at present and to avoid any appearance of evil. Questions related to conflict of interest are overdue.
I don’t believe I know you personally, but I do know the men that you rebuked here publicly. I know that their agenda is to call Bellevue to repentance and reform.
You seem to be one of the main voices supporting the leadership no matter what.
I would suggest that since these men have not been allowed the scriptural forum to air their concerns before the body that you consider hanging on to any future rebukes until you hear their side of the story.
It is easy to rebuke someone without facing them.
It is easy to rebuke when you are in the majority. I believe it would be wise to hold your rebukes, however, until the light shines more fully on all of these matters.
To their Master they stand or fall. If they are being true to him, your rebukes will ring quite hollow soon.
jmo
I am also wondering why the original petition was removed? Anyone care to illuminate?
david s. says:
You know, the frustrating thing is if I respond to you in any way, even with Scripture, I am accused of “attacking” you and calling you “names.”
Why would you say something like that? Are you trying to pick an argument? Are you saying it with the Spirit of Christ, sister?
You stir things up with rude comments then sit back as others defend you as a victim. Frustrating because you shamelessly use that trump card after saying offensive things.
SOTL says:
I'll tell you EXACTLY why i said that. On the evening of Jan. 28, DAvid coombs laughed in my face when I said to him: " pedophilia thrives in silence"
Tonight you have waived off any credence to any hurt or pain suffered by those who have been victimized by pedophiles.
And for your information, I HAVE been diagnosed with PTSD. You foolishly think that the ONLY people who can suffer from this are soldiers? You say that they don't consider themselves victims, etc..What in the world does THAT have to do with me?
Are you suggesting that I (we) follow their lead?
You really don't get it do you?
And how DARE you suggest that I use my abuse as a trump card.
David Coombs only laughed in my face. You just slapped me in the face.
As a Legally Ordained Clergy-Member you can:
Weddings Perform wedding ceremonies. Authorized in all 50 states.
Beliefs Share your personal religious beliefs with others.
Respect Earn the respect automatically accorded members of the clergy.
Tax Free Qualify for tax free status as religious order.
Earn Money If you wish, you can legally charge for the religious rites you perform; including weddings, funerals, services, and more!
Ceremonies Lead, (even create your own!), religious ceremonies and rites as a legally ordained member of the clergy.
Open a church to spread the fellowship of believers.
Legal in all 50 States Legal in all 50 states. Some areas may require registration before conducting wedding ceremonies.
Preferred Treatment As a Pastor, Minister, Cleric, Priest, Clergy-Member, Bishop: Ordained Clergy Members everywhere are provided preferred treatment, even price discounts, as a show of respect towards legally ordained religious leaders.
Prison Ministry Visit prisons and bring hope and faith to those within.
Funerals Conduct funeral ceremonies.
Title Choose your own title: Minister, Reverend, Pastor, Cleric... you decide.
...all according to your beliefs.
Become ordained online now and receive your certificate by mail.
also from the online ordanation website
------------------------
" I am a woman and found it hard to be a vessel of love from God without being ordained. I felt that with a title, people are more apt to come to you for support. You made it easy for me to help and spread my Christian traditions."
Rev. Roberts HMMMM....Perhaps Rev roberts and David Coombs can now marry your daughter,Insult your brother, get price discounts and conduct Purpose Driven Religous rites.And be vessels of Love...and yes earn the respect automatically accorded to members of the clergy...Bring out the beloved banners from third floor storage at Bellevue.choose your own
title legalistic Clergy or Legalistic Reverend for the Committees or Qualifyed Ordained Baptisms. No Problem... All according to your beliefs!Will David Coombs be starting a Prison Ministry soon after his coronation or will he be conseling at funerals....Folks sign the petition........
Deacon that's a beacon stated:
"The budget committee for the fiscal 2007-2008 year is facing a rather difficult dilemma. It appears that for the first time in the history of the church they are facing a budget shortfall for the 2006-2007 year and may have to reduce the total projected receipts for the 2007-2008 year by as much as 20%. That decrease is equal to almost the entire missions budget.
Facts from the past two years budgets:
2005-2006 2006-2007
Receipts 20,645,911 21,881,222
Salaries 10,987,567 12,085,548
53.21% 55.23%"
*******
Deacon, could you find out the figures one year earlier for us to add to this comparison? You have done so much already by providing us with these insightful numbers. However, I was wondering what the various salary figures were for the last full year that Dr. Rogers was pastor--2004-2005.
I think a comparison of that third year added to this picture might speak even louder than what we see already. Thank you, again, Deacon.
Dee Richardson
What is the plan for the use of the petition? Honest question.
"due to the challenges of signature authentication it is not yet possible to use online petitions for legal referendum."
be patient said
Even Bellevue publishes the list of names of the people on the Board. I don't understand the need to keep it secret.
Piglet says:
Are you serious? What if a deacon officer or a finance committee member were on the board of IDC? Wouldn't their name need to be a closely guarded secret? :)
When BBC gives us a member list, we'll give YOU a list of the IDC board members....
David Brown said...
...
Mike B., brother, God Bless you. You just don't get it.
David, you have no idea what I "get" and what I don't "get," all right?
Your answer to a victim of sexual abuse when they speak out is to tell them they are wrong and too bitter.
Hmm. I never directed that post at anyone at all. I merely quoted a passage of Scripture, and also quoted something Pastor Rogers used to say from time to time. It's interesting to see that you connected the dots in that manner.
Then you beat them over the head with Scriptures.
I see. Quoting Scripture for conviction and encouragement--when the "right person" isn't doing it--equates to beating someone over the head?
David, do you see how your statement's a bit out of balance?
Do you ever wonder why they don't listen to you? Does it make you feel better when you tell them off as you did tonight? I pray it does not.
You're reaching.
These dear victims were not only abused physically but emotionally too. Their very inner core has been torn apart. Their whole value system has been turned upside down. I call it soul murder. The very ones they trusted the most, abused them. It is a walking nightmare.
Again, you have no idea what I "get" and what I don't "get."
I do praise my God for allowing me endure the pain and suffering I have. I have been through the valley of darkness and I have come out on the other side. But it took me over 44 years to get here. I didn't just wake up one day and said it is all over. And I am still healing. It take a lot of time and a lot of prayer.
And we praise God for it.
I do have a special prayer request. My middle son, Kevin is heading to Iraq in less than 60 days. He was saved at Bellevue at the old church in 1987. I pray he returns safely but whatever happens, he is in God's hands.
Please--thank him for his service. We thank you for raising up a young man willing and able to be of service to his country.
No doubt all of us will be praying for him, for you, and for your entire family.
--Mike
Piglet,
It just seems like maybe you should practice what you preach. I certainly recall that sentiment being expressed towards SG.
And no, if they are doing God's work and are following God's will, I don't think they should be afraid to release their names no matter who they are.
Brother Mike: I know sometimes people get frustrated over what they read on the blog. But tonight I have received 3 emails from victims upset at what has been said about bitterness and healing. And two of them are victims that I have heard from for the first time tonight. Do you have any idea how many victims have contacted me since this whole PW thing happened? It would stagger you. It does me. But that is good. We are making an impact. Victims are reaching out and asking for help; some for the very first time. Praise the Lord.
The stats say that 1 in 3 girls will be abused and 1 in 5 boys will be. Those numbers are horrible but they are the TRUTH. Try as we might, we can't hide from the truth.
One of my favorite sermons of Dr. Rogers is the one he has taught many times on the root of bitterness. Those cries and shouts you hear from these victims are cries of frustration and help. Instead of being self-righteous, be kind and loving. What ever happened to turn the other cheek? 70x70?
I just ask for some understanding and compassion. I know that some victims are more outspoken than others but that is not all bad. The fact they have the courage to speak out at all is very good.
David S. and Mike, and others thanks for your prayers. My son is looking forward to being able to share Jesus with the Iraqis.
Please lets be more kind to each other. We have a bunch of very hurting brothers and sisters reading and posting here. How we treat each other is very important. If all they see are us going at each other, do you think we really got our "point" across? And if we did, at what expense?
I love you all and NOW I am going to bed. Trust me I need all the beauty rest I can get.
In HIS Hands,
David Brown
Memphis,
The petition will insure that if the Church proceeds with this action that they do so with full knowledge that it is against the wishes of a great number of members. There are no legal referendums in Church governance, but there certainly are issues of moral integrity and this is one of many that confront Bellevue at this time.
Ordination Petition
From what I am hearing it is not being overlooked and with each signature it becomes more difficult to ignore. Thanks for reminding me to repost.
David S.
I forgive you.
David Brown
Thank you for speaking for not only me, but for all the adult survivors out there.
And the angels in Heaven shout 'Halleluiah!' Bless you guys!
bepatient,
There is no fear involved in the Board of IDC. There is a matter of effectiveness and right now they may have more effect anonymously.
Since when has releasing names become an issue in your eyes. The church has a legal responsibility to do so and gain your support in refusing to do so. IDC has no legal or other responsibility to you and you take issue with them because of it.
This is actually far beyond a double standard. Releasing names for one is a legal requirement and the other is to satisfy your curiousity.
David B,
I came home tonight after feeling bad when I had to leave when SOTL was being beat up on and I see that as soon as I left...you were there!! Thank you again. BUT SOTL is a warrior mom!! I am sorry that you were put down for defending those of us who could not defend ourselves when younger so as an adult we will no longer have our voices taken from us.
Just for the record...JMO's remarks to SOTL were particularly low. If it makes JMO and the pastor who has so much knowledge about Post Traumatic Stress feel better...I had to go back to my therapist after a 5 year break because of the report that left no stone unturned. It would be interesting and probably funny to see any of the "experts" from this blog tonight debate my therapist on whether I have PTSD...or what it is. They know where to strike us and hurt us in the wounds we kept silent about for years. That's right....we were not allowed or able to complain or WHINE for many years. But now our wounds give us guts and radar that most of the people eager to put us down for being outraged at evil will never have. The truth is, your words meant to degrade or make yourself feel superior to us... are absolutely nothing. What can your words and opinions do to us that we have not already endured. I am proud that my kids know that because of the H I lived thru,I will die before I let that happen to them or to my grandchildren or any other child. We may sound crazy when we are surrounded by injustice and lies but we are not. The women,like myself, who were revictimized by the perversion of PW...if it kept PW from violating the innocence of another child and that child living thru what we have,so be it...we would all go thru it again. We are more protective than many of the men in leadership right now at BBC. THEY would whine and complain ...we use our voices to call sin sin ,not an incident. My body and mind got confused the night the report was read. And I WAS ashamed of that.My church has been a safe place for me...not perfect...but safe. BBC was once known for defending the truth and for leaders with courage. We "victims" will continue to stand ...we understand what it is to be robbed and to be silenced.
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