Channel 5 had more coverage at 10:00 p.m. and a new story here.
WREC Radio (AM 600) devoted the whole Mike Fleming show to this issue today (December 21st) and will likely do so again tomorrow (Friday).
FOX13 will likely cover the story again at 9:00 p.m. They have a new story here.
Today's Commercial Appeal letters to the editor are here.
WREC Radio's website coverage is here and here.
The Michael Reagan Show can be streamed from here.
Michael Reagan's commentary is here.
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87 comments:
MABTS meeting at 2 today dealing with Dr Spradlin. I'm hearing that David Perdue orchestrated it and was wanting to push Spradlin out.
I'm very thankful that Mike Fleming has called Dr. Spradlin out on the show for his unwise comments in the Commercial Appeal.
Michael Reagan has called for Steve Gaines resignation. Audio link below.
http://www.worldviewweekend.com/secure/cwnetwork/broadcast.php?ArticleID=1380
Mike Fleming...now there's a spiritual giant
I just got word that the meeting in question is over, and for now anyway, he job is secure. Wonder how long Perdue stays on there.
That's "Spradlin's job is safe"
Here are a few important changes that would help during these days of crisis in leadership:
I. Pastoral Accountability to the Congregation:
1. A business meeting in accord with Matthew 18 to deal with the issues that remain related to Mark Sharpe and "the Dream"... and any other loose ends that should have been dealt with months ago!!
2. The giving records of the membership and the ministers on staff at Bellevue should never be for pastoral review in any shape, form, or fashion.
3. No church credit cards.
4. An admission Dr. Gaines should have never given $25k to FUMC and an explanation of policy changes to prevent a repeat.
5. A policy for open books on Holy land trips and no overcharging of members. Free tickets for the host and wife are fine but not for anybody else.
6. Full disclosure of ministerial compensation: salary + benefit breakdown, etc.
7. Timely removal from office of ministers guilty of sexual immorality with immediate and timely coordination with the appropriate authorities if any laws have been broken by a minister (no matter how long ago), including thorough investigation of the matter when the minister’s conduct may have affected other church members or their children.
II. Congregational Church governance:
Some of the congregation has awakened to the reality that our church has a set of "lay-elders," a close knit group of men who manage to be appointed to key positions year after year. The rest of the congregation needs to be awakened.
1. Those who are part of this lay-elder "power block" need to step down from positions of influence for a long time. Bellevue needs “new blood” in these key positions.
2. There needs to be the signing of a public conflict of interest form for any member that has any business contract to provide services for the church. These people should not be allowed to serve on committees that review bids for their services.
3. Congregational nomination of and election of all of the Board of Directors as called for in the 1929 bylaws.
4. A quarterly business meeting with open mike Q&A with each committee chairman. **The current bylaws mention "monthly" business meetings! When were they changed??
5. A good updated set of bylaws similar to GBC.
6. A transparent committee selection process.
7. Much greater congregational oversight of the current budget with a transparent policy for consideration of non-budgeted expenditures exceeding a reasonable amount.
8. Thorough communication with the Congregation for ANY capital project well in advance of any vote. Building prayer buildings or any other type of building should be brought through proper channels to the congregation for prayerful consideration--not coerced "rubber stamping." [By the way, Dr. Rogers taught us quite a bit about prayer. As a matter of fact, I believe all of the current buildings ARE prayer buildings already. He and Dr. Whitmire also taught us quite a bit about worship also... but that's another topic].
9. Bellevue needs to reject Warrenism fully and finally.
10. Higher standards should be put in place for the hiring of "ministers." Seminary training should be considered a normal prerequisite.
III. Treatment of ministers on staff at BBC and members:
1. A whistle blower policy for ministers, staff, and members.
2. The end of heavy handed dealing with ministers, staff, and members; and the end of signing non-disclosure statements. All ministers who have been pressured or asked to sign such non-disclosure statements should be released from them in writing by BBC! Former staff should be allowed to address the congregation and/or the deacon body either in writing or in person without any fear of reprisal regarding their exit from BBC. Gaines has confessed to mishandling Dr. Whimire's exit... The congregation now needs to hear from Dr. Whimire--and several others--by letter or in person IN THEIR OWN WORDS. The congregation needs to know how their leadership has treated and is treating ministers who leave the service of our Lord through BBC.
3. Forgiveness for those in leadership who have allowed this to deteriorate to this point--AND consequences for their actions.
All in my opinion as usual.
We are to be “providing things honestly in the sight of all men” (Rom. 12:17). Revival, reform, congregational oversight... for there is level ground at Calvary and "he who would be great among you shall be the servant of all."
I think "sendthelight50" might be on WREC right now... 5:41 p.m.
I disagree with Mike Flemming. It is an not a "very difficult" decision to fire a pedophile. It is easy. Nothing hard about it. no brainer. Pedophiles should always be fired immediatly.
graceupongrace said:
"I'm very thankful that Mike Fleming has called Dr. Spradlin out on the show for his unwise comments in the Commercial Appeal."
Response: Unwise comments?? The beginning of wisdom is the fear of the LORD. Dr. Spradlin's comments demonstrated that he fears the Lord more than man... I call that wisdom.
Fleming is conservative politically, but he is not qualified to judge Spradlin on this one. Backing the protection for six months of a confessed pedophile does not exactly give him the moral high ground to attack a Seminary President.
Michael Reagan has backed Dr. Spradlin. James Dobson has backed Dr. Spradlin. No matter what you may think of Dobson as a whole, He holds a bit more moral weight than Fleming. jmo.
Amen 25+yrs
We could use a lot more of the fear of the Lord in the church!
Then maybe it wouldn't be quite so shocking when someone has the integrity and the backbone to speak the truth.
http://www.mabts.edu/clientimages/23267/pdfs/drsclaraification.pdf
Dr. Spradlin has issued a statement.
December 21, 2006
Dear Mid-America Family:
As you know, our stated mission is to train people for ministry as pastors, church staff
leaders, and missionaries to believe the Bible as the inerrant Word of God, to be personal
soulwinners and to be mission minded. What we teach must have a direct effect on what
our students do in ministry.
On Thursday, December 14, James Dowd, a reporter from the Commercial Appeal called
to interview me concerning several aspects of church life around the country and some
doctrinal issues such as baptism. We met Tuesday, December 19 at the Seminary
because he had also requested a tour of the new MABTS campus.
After touring the campus and meeting students and faculty we met in my office and
began a general discussion about the items that he had mentioned on the phone. After an
hour, the subject of ministry ethics came up and the reporter asked me a general question,
“If a minister knows of child molesting and does nothing about it what should happen?”
My answer was that, “If a minister has first hand knowledge of child molesting and does
nothing about it then that minister should resign.” He sat back in his chair and said, “You
just made tomorrow’s paper.” I knew he was referring to the Bellevue situation because
between the time we made the appointment and the interview, Dr. Steve Gaines, pastor of
Bellevue Baptist Church, announced that a staff member was placed on paid leave of
absence due to a past moral failure. The reporter applied my statement to Dr. Gaines.
When he did so, I told him that he was making a connection that I had not made. I also
told him that I did not know all of the details of the situation in question so there was a
big “if” there. He asked if he could quote me on my belief and I told him he could.
After my lunch appointment I talked with Roland Maddox, and told him about the
interview and what happened at the interview with James Dowd. I next talked with Gene
Howard and shared with him the same information.
On Wednesday, the Commercial Appeal published the story on the front page and the
seminary began to receive calls. The number of calls and emails were overwhelmingly
positive but some negative responses were received. Three responses of note were James
Dobson, who I spoke with at length, a vice president with the international mission board,
and a Baptist college president. All expressed support and appreciation for someone
taking a stand on ministry ethics and the wrong of child molestation. Dr. Dobson
emphasized to me that “When prominent leaders have no accountability and make these
kinds of decisions, other prominent leaders must stand up and hold them accountable.”
My friend from the IMB said, “Mike, thank you for your stand in this matter of child
sexual abuse. I deal with this matter far too often, and feel that we must take very strong
stands against such abuse, and the coverups that far too often accompany it.” These men
reflect the teaching of our school. We must follow Scripture and obey God no matter
what the cost.
Brothers and sisters, at this time of year I have no greater desire than to focus on the real
reason for the season, the Lord Jesus. But let me ask you the question that was asked to
me: “If a minister knows of child molesting and does nothing about it what should
happen?” Biblically, I can see no other response than the one I gave.
Sincerely,
Michael R. Spradlin
President
5:55 p.m.: Jim Haywood's on the air on WREC.
Link to the Dr. Spradlin statement above is not complete. Try this one.
TRY THIS
Valerie (from the radio) -
Thank you for speaking out on the Mike Fleming show - that took an enormous amount of courage. I pray that God continues to strengthen you during this investigation.
Amen to the lady on the radio talking about consequences.
I'm very thankful that Mike Fleming has called Dr. Spradlin out on the show for his unwise comments in the Commercial Appeal.
How did he call Spradlin out?
Under what possible conditions would a confessed child molester be allowed to return to his ministerial position? Wouldn't that be the only reason for leaving PW on the payroll? Am I missing something here?
How timely. The caller who just came on said the same thing. Glad to know it's not "just me."
Well,
I am glad to see that Dr. Spradlin wasn't intending to create such a firestorm, even though he isn't really showing full regret for his statement.
And let me say, 25+, that it is interesting you are so quick to praise Michael Reagan, thousands of miles away, on the list of Spradlin supporters, but so quickly condemn Mike Fleming, who is right here in Memphis and is certainly more knowledgable than Michael Reagan about Bellevue. And I won't really get into Dr. Dobson...
(As always, no hard feelings)
I hear that there is going to be a new report about Bellevue at 10pm tonight on Channel 5...everyone should tune in. Or unless it's going to air tomorrow...we'll see.
grace,
Spradlin doesn't have anything to regret.
graceupongrace,
Did you read my last post on the other thread?
graceupon said...
I'm very thankful that Mike Fleming has called Dr. Spradlin out on the show for his unwise comments in the Commercial Appeal.
Again I ask, how did Mike Fleming call him out? What did Mike say?
I'm listening and I must have missed that. I've been listening from the start of the program.
allofgrace,
I did, and thanks for the words. I am glad we do have some common ground, as in reality all of us who profess belief in Jesus Christ have much in common that we often can forget on boards like these.
housewife,
At the beginning of the program Mike Fleming said it was wrong for Dr. Spradlin to have spoken out as he did.
One thing is for sure. PW should be fired and taken off of paid anything.
Why hasn't this happened already?
What's the alternative? Could there possibly be one? NO, except jail time. But if he does go to jail, will he still be on paid leave?
Why is it so hard for SG to do the right thing? He has a prime opportunity. Fire him already. Investigation or no, fire the guy. No more paid anything.
Again, why is it so hard for SG to do the right thing?
graceupongrace,
I invite you to my personal blogsite at sbdiscussionforum.blogspot.com to join in some discussion there...I have a few posts there on some subjects you might be interested in. I'd appreciate your input there. btw..sb stands for southern baptist.
I see. I must have missed that. (But I REALLY have been paying attention.) So, if he did say that, he's wrong.
If Mike can comment, surely so can Spradlin. =)
No offense to Mike. I think that at this point, Mike Fleming can do no other than talk about this. So I wouldn't tell him to pipe down either.
Tim,
New Report? What could possibly be new that you would be interested in directing the blog to.
Why don't you just go watch the report? If I'm not mistaken...it's t-minus 3 and a half hours...unless they decide to air it tomorrow.
To all BBC members:
I was a member of BBC for 20+ years, and feel I have something to add to the discussions here.
MOST if not all, of the ethical, legal, and moral failings of SG and the upper leaders at BBC, were very present in the upper staff/ministers, BEFORE SG became pastor. I left the BBC fellowship prior to SG coming to BBC. The reason I left is: I was intimidated, lied to and about, and finally black listed. What was my crime?: I had dared to ask questions about misdealings of many types and colors. I could write a book about my last years at BBC. I will not give exact details because I am fearful that the ministers, who were involved in my situation, would realize who I am and come back to "haunt me".
My concerns went up the chain of authorities and stopped at the associate pastor; but went no farther(they would never allow Dr Rogers to know what was going on!). I went way out on a limb, believing that if the upper staffers knew they would want people to be treated right. Boy was I wrong! MANY other members knew what was going on with me; all but one, would not raise a voice, or finger to help. I believe the reason they were silent is, they were afraid of being treated as I was. Programs & activities were more important than standing up for the mistreated.
I truly believed that when SG came, he would clean house. Now I see that SG has continued and made worse the exact problems that were there prior to his coming to BBC.
I now believe that God has brought SG to expose the failings of the administration, so that there can be a "house cleaning"; that His work will not be hindered.
I have moved on and found a wonderful church to serve the Lord. Praise the Lord! God has used these same failings at BBC to lead me to where I know He wants me, one I am very glad to serve. "All things work together for good...."
For the current membership I would like to encouraage you to:
Please try to not miss a service at BBC. It would be very like the administration to call a surprise vote of confidence. From what I hear in the community, many of you are visiting other churches waiting for SG to resign, before you return to your own church. You are now not one voice but many. I encourage you to stand together for truth and righteousness.
I am sorry I have to remain anonymous, due to the fact I do not wish any staffer showing up at my home, or calling me (I guess my number is still in the BBC computer?). Please know that I am praying for you.
God Bless You,
HurtExBBCer
I know that a number of you are interested in what I have to say, and for that I'm flattered and blessed. Please stop by my place, take a read, and let me know what you think.
Caution: I was particularly verbose.
--Mike
Oh boy. Here we go with the misusing the scriptures about judging. (guy on radio)
Please learn at least a little bit of context before using scripture.
Most of us aren't experts on the Bible. But stop using the judgemental argument.
Again more callers trying to pin this on Pastor Rogers. Anything to take the blame off of SG.
I think we can gather many examples of Pastor Rogers dealing with sin quickly and efficiently.
And we can gather examples of SG not dealing with sin quickly and efficiently. This being one of them!
Mike just said what I couldn't type fast enough.
allofgrace,
Thanks for the link, I'll certainly read and make some posts when I get the chance. I thought I was the only Reformed person here for a while :). Of course, I guess I should have known, since we both have "grace" in our usernames, hah!
HurtExBBCer,
I have one question and I hope that you feel free to answer it for me. It is important to me to know, perhaps not anyone else.
Who was the associate pastor at the time that you had these problems?
Mrs. Rogers is on WREC now!
Mrs. Joyce is on.
Her words speak volumes. Thank you Mrs. Joyce for clearing things up about Pastor Rogers. It is wonderful to hear it straight from you. God bless you. We love you.
joyce Rogers just said that she asked that it be said from the pulpit that her husband was not the "former minister" that knew, and she said that "they" would not honor her request.
And the "mistakes of the mind" continue....
joyce Rogers just said that she asked that it be said from the pulpit that her husband was not the "former minister" that knew, and she said that "they" would not honor her request
This is just shameful!!!! I'm disgusted.
But I'm not surprised. It doesn't serve SG to make that clear!
Mrs. Rogers, what a special saint you are!
She just made it clear that she had asked the church to announce that Pastor Rogers knew nothing about this.
There is no more guessing, not more speculation, no more wondering if the Rogers family has been disrespected by the leaders of our church for indeed they have!
What love is this may I ask???????
May the LORD rebuke each one who has done this evil thing!
Guys,
I encourage you all to go read Mike Bratton's latest post on his blog. As usual, he uses 20 words were 5 would do, but this is a HUGE step on his part.
Mike,
I still think you are missing a screw or two, but I at least am starting to believe you might be sincere.
graceupongrace,
I guessed from a few of your comments.
It would seem in a time when SG wants to mend fences he should be extending a long humble arm toward the Rogers family.
Don't count on it unless he feels cornered.
Kind of like when he cried while saying he would like to stay on as our pastor.
Oh I'm sure he wants to stay on as pastor...
BTW, why do we have to wait until he feels like mending fences? Why doesn't he stop burning them instead?
david S,
I know. It's hard to believe that someone you put a lot of faith in could behave this way.
I'm past his intentions. His acts speak for themselves.
Ok I'm just floored that Mrs. Rogers asked that BBC let it be known that our revered beloved former pastor had no knowledge of this horrible sin and wasn't the Minister in question during the misleading statements of last Sunday and they denied her request. How many more slaps in the face will it take BBC. This man must be relieved of his position. He will not go quietly into the night on his own. The Deacons must rise up and take control of this situation.
Could someone post a link so that I could hear that statement with my own ears.
I am not believing what is being said.
I am furious to the point of tears.
from channel 13..
Multiple sources tell FOX13 that this investigation is likely separate from a scandal involving “past moral failures” that has been brewing for over a week.
Ok. I don't want to start false rumors. Please help me by clarifying, if you know the answer. I think I misunderstood what is written above.
Are they saying that there is an investigation of another child involved, another case of abuse?
Or, are they saying that the investigation is different from the one in process by SG's administration but involving the same case?
Well I think it was on live radio Tim. I don't think anybody has it on the internet. I guess you could call WREC and see if Mike was still around and ask him?
Maybe there talking about the Police incident on the 12th?
Tim, Mrs. Joyce said this on Mike Flemming's radio program, live. I don't know if anyone recoded it. Many of us heard it either on the radio or on the website's stream link.
If you find out how to get the audio, let me know. I thought the same thing, even though I did hear it live.
=)
ju, yeah. Maybe so.
I hope someone recorded Mrs Rogers call.
Every Bellevue member should hear that sweet voice standing up for Pastor Rogers integrity!!!!
Surely if nothing else has opened their eyes, this could!
I can`t stop thinking about Mrs. Rogers comments.
The earth just seem to stand still as she spoke the truth.
Every deacon who loves the truth and loved Pastor Rogers and Mrs. Rogers, should be standing at Steve Gaines door right now. knocking.
They should be calling for his resignation before Sunday comes.
Joe Jernigan where are you on this?
Mark Daughtety...step down sir.
David Coombs who do you think you are?
Harry Smith and the rest of the cowardly lions on the board and in the committees and on staff......
SHAME ON YOU!
I pray the Lord rebukes you and that your lives can be made whole again one day.
Tim no worries tomorrow we'll be able to download Mike's Podcast from this link.
http://www.600wrec.com/cc-common/podcast.html
I have not quite figured out what needs to be done if this is what was correctly heard, but I will tell you one thing.
Mrs. Joyce Rogers has a newly adopted son. I will not stand silent and let this families name be disgraced. PERIOD.
It is high time that many adopted sons stand up and do what is right. Period.
Well it doesn't look like he casts his entire show but I just emailed him and asked him to put a special cast of Mrs. Rogers statement up. Hopefully he will.
I did too. I'm sure Mike will get PLENTY of requests.
How can anyone be certain, including Mrs. Rogers, of what exactly Dr. Rogers knew or did not know about the situation.
Please I know there are many of us that feel so sorry for Mrs. Rogers and what this poor woman is being forced to endure. I loved her husband. I do not think for one minute he knew. I say this as SNAP representative.
I would like to suggest we put our collective hats on and have a "celebration for Mrs. Rogers." How about it, let's have a party and let her know how much her husband meant to many of us and how much we love her.
My email address is on my profile. Is there anyone against this? Let's do it!
govols,
It's already been stated by Mrs. Rogers that Paul Williams himself told her Dr. Rogers didn't know..now unless you consider Mrs. Rogers a liar, why don't you just take PW's and Mrs. Rogers word for it. My money is on Mrs. Rogers.
As I listened to Mrs. Rogers on radio my eyes began to tear.How shameful that this poor woman has to resort to calling a radio station to defend her departed husband, a man we all loved and respected.Dr.Gaines what kind of man are you to implicate Dr.Rogers in this sordid mess in order to deflect blame from yourself .To those of you who are following Gaines lead and wanting to blame Dr.Rogers shame on you.To those of you who support Gaines as a great moral man please answer this.Why did Gaines refuse to honor Mrs.Rogers request to clear her husbands name from the pulpit?
govols,
Exactly!
And if they don't know they shouldn't imply anything and if they did imply something then they need to stand up and apologize and make it crystal clear that they were not trying to claim that Dr. Adrian Rogers knew anything about this incident.
Tim, I'm sorry, I had to eat dinner.....but the answer to your question about who was the associate Pastor at the time I went through my trial, is the same one that is serving under SG: Mark Daugherty.
Thanks for listening.
Mr. David Brown,
I would like to plan a party for this Sunday, interesting that you should suggest it.
WARNING: DOUBLE STANDARDS
There are defenders of Dr. Gaines that claim he was assured by Mr. Williams there are no other victims then it was ok not to report the crime.
Yet when those that defend Dr. Rogers as not having any knowledge of this because the same Mr. Williams told Mr. Rogers her husband was kept out of the loop we are challenged and called names.
I know I am nothing but and ole country boy but that sure smells like a double standard.
Tim,
Are you the same Tim that was interviewed on TV?
I think the DCS case might be a separate case I'm reading what was said on the news right. According to the report on Channel 13, theres no indication that the DCS investigation is connected to the Paul Williams case.
Tim,
Sounds like ace is makin a list and checkin it twice:)
Mom4,
Sounds like ace is makin a list and checkin it twice:)
A list about what?
Ace ,Did you hear Mrs. Rogers on the radio this evening?
Ace ,if you find the opportunity please listen. Mrs. Rogers is a very noble,graceful lady.I actually was moved to tears as she spoke.
According to the Channel 5 news, who did a story on what the law states about reporting abuse or molestation...There is no exception for Clergy, anyone who has suspicion that someone has been molesting a child, it has to be reported. If a person fails to report a case if they have knowledge of it can be sentenced to 3 months in jail and a $2500 fine.
It's a good thing that PW is only a child molestor. If he were guilty of something more serious, like not giving a full tithe, he would have been fired a long time ago.
According to the Channel 5 news, who did a story on what the law states about reporting abuse or molestation...There is no exception for Clergy, anyone who has suspicion that someone has been molesting a child, it has to be reported. If a person fails to report a case if they have knowledge of it can be sentenced to 3 months in jail and a $2500 fine.
The take away for me from that news story was that Steve Gaines broke the law when he did not report the PW abuse that he knew about for six months.
Still, that bothers me less than the fact he failed to fire PW on the spot 6 months ago and that he implied Dr. Rogers knew about PW, forcing Ms. Rogers to have to call the radio to set the record straight.
QuiverFullPlusOne, not to mention asking too many questions.
BTW, if they put SG in jail, can we finally get rid of him?
bin wondering, I don't expect much from him anymore except lies, deceit, anger, intimidation, conniving...
Would you ever have thought in your wildest imaginations that you would have heard speculation on the local TV news that the pastor of Bellevue Baptist Church might face criminal prosecution? Not for preaching the Word of God like in Communist China, but for a simple "mistake of the mind".
When will this all end?????
This will end when SG and his cronies are gone. At this point, the healing will start.
HurtExBBCer,
Please contact me. My email is in my profile.
Mike Bratton,
I know that a number of you are interested in what I have to say...
Not really. But FinanceGuy talked me into giving you a chance, so I'm heading there in a minute. Maybe you'lll surprise me?
Mike Bratton,
By golly, I think we can be friends. While in the past your smarmy tone and unnecessarily verbose musings have oft induced a certain gag-like reflex, I sincerely thank you for your well-reasoned and considerate commentary this eve. Intrepid reportage and opinion indeed.
Here you are my friends.
http://www.filecrunch.com/file/~ihwy7y
If the other link isn't working to well.
http://www.gigasize.com/get.php/249399/MrsRogers.mp3
Thanks Ju.
Here is a clickable link to the filecrunch site for those that need help getting there.
Download MrsRogers.mp3
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