This was sent to me by a poster with the screen name "22 years at BBC" (not to be confused with "25+yrs@bbc"). I think it deserves highlighting on the front page rather than being buried in the comments.
This blogger, Lindon, has posted an excellent piece on Bellevue. This was posted in a comment in the last thread with no reference to its source.
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467 comments:
«Oldest ‹Older 201 – 400 of 467 Newer› Newest»Ezekiel:
Great post at 3:56 PM today! There is so much power in the repetition of the central idea of the message. If those "righteous men" read that, it ought to convict them in their hearts--to repentance, I can hope.
Keep that wonderful, powerful, righteous Word of God coming to our site with its convicting, exposing, and purifying power. Amen and Hallelujah!
Dee
bellevuefriend61 said:
"I'm not looking for answers. Just curious as to what all the hoopla is over here."
Yes, I have the picture now. Inquiring minds want to know.
Good night.
Dee
swtt--
Your list is great. Keep on posting it.
Everybody, be sure to read it. It has got everything I could have ever thought of on it.
Dee
Ezekiel:
You said yesterday that you had read through the Bible once now and were well into your second time. It is evident by the way you are talking that you are so caught up by the Spirit by being deep in His Word. I was the same way. He truly confirms you as His in your spirit when you honor Him by drawing close to Him that way (studying His Word and desiring to know Him better). One of my main reasons for trying to read the whole Bible was because, after praying about this to Him, I wanted to KNOW HIM better. When people said they loved Jesus or loved the Lord, I wanted to know Him enough to where I felt that I could honestly say "I love Him". He gave me that for sure. Reading is not one of my favorite things, especially long books. God knows my heart and He knows how much of a sacrifice of praise it was for me to accomplish that. I am so glad I can rest in knowing that He knows my innermost workings and still loves me. Keep reading, Brother, and I will, too.
Dee
ez,
I've got a couple new resources I posted on my blog...check em out when you get the chance.
Phil 2.3,4
3 Do nothing out of selfish ambition or vain conceit, but in humility consider others better than yourselves.
4 Each of you should look not only to your own interests, but also to the interests of others.
Good stuff - thanks for pointing us to it ez.
Ezekiel:
Thank you for the encouragement to keep reading. I do not think I could ever quit now. You are a blessing to this site, Ezekiel (not to puff you up).
Yes, the excitement of HIM is here with that glorious WORD of His!! Keep on giving us what He gives to you every day. He surely is in this place! He is directing us! He is using YOU right now! How beautiful to see Him here!
z--Where is Danny Akin's web address?
So right, Ezekiel. We should all be on our faces right now and crying out for His help. Every single person from Bellevue Baptist Church and everyone who hears of this tragedy and believes on the Holy, Holy, Holy One. A great cry should be going out. Instead of the spirit of curiosity or anger or combat or one-upsmanship we should be crying, crying prayer.
What do you think, my Brother?
If anyone needs to catch up on all of the things that have come to light as fact on this blog please read this report.
Memphis Mess
SWTT,
Thank you for your list. It is amazing what has taken place at BBC in the past 16 mths.
What is more amazing is that there are still those that condone/promote these actions by defending them.
Each one of these points is bad enough, but the entire list breaks my heart! Why would people defend lies vs. truth.
There are still those struggling with confessed absolute truth.
Why do some do these mens' bidding and defend them in ways they have refused to defend themselves? How can those be so certain of these mens' intent when they refuse to speak publically for themselves. The only confessions have come after months of prompting and only begrudgingly.
Please wake up and trust God not man. You are only enabling them in the dilusion that there are only 3-4 disgruntled members.
Bellevuefriend61, would you please email me? My email is on my profile. You can email without signing your name if you wish.
3-4 disgruntled members...
Let's see..I had lunch today with atleast 15 other disgruntled members besides myself......
I though today's service was great. I loved the music, and I enjoyed clapping to the songs. I thought the message was something we all needed to hear. I also think that if you are saying "well so and so really should have heard it" then you missed the point.
Goodnight and Happy New Year!
I had an odd thought and perhaps someone can explain this to me.
After the take over attempt of MABTS by Union Univ. Harry Smith and I believe his son in law Rex Jones were ousted from the board of directors, if I understood the events correctly.
Does it make any sense that David Perdue would call a Board Meeting in an attempt to oust Dr. Spradlin?
Why would David Perdue have thought that he possesed the influence necessary to accomplish something like that?
In reading thru some of the questions from earlier today, it just got my mind twirling questions about.
To All-
Happy New Year!!
May God bless everybody in 2007.
Good night!
Tim,
Dave Perdue thinks very highly of himself and his "positions of authority" - time will tell just how powerful those positions will turn out to be. For now, it looks like the power may be in his own mind. I would hope that the MABTS Board would see the man for what he is - and the LWF Board would follow suit.
I am still praying that Union U will rethink the position of Harry Smith as Chairman of their Board. With all that has happened here and the questions surrounding his character, they may be watching and waiting for the appropriate timing as well.
Where there is smoke there is ALWAYS fire, and the embers are glowing at BBC.
Happy New Year!
Piglet said...
3-4 disgruntled members...
Let's see..I had lunch today with atleast 15 other disgruntled members besides myself......
And I had lunch with 6 others, so that makes 23, hhmmm, sounds like growing numbers to me.
On another note, the lack of attendance at this mornings services at BBC was astounding. The offering plates passed by us were empty. Such a shame that folks missed JJ's great sermon. It was a blessing. Perhaps we ALL could watch it online, lest we think we are the only ones that "got it" OK Memphis?
Mom4:
We were also at the 9:30 service this morning, and Bro. Joe's sermon was beautiful and very heartfelt. He only said about the pastor what he needed to say and I really believe he was attempting to let us see HIS heart and HIS love for Jesus.
It was good to sit in that sanctuary and shed tears of worship rather than tears of sadness!
Happy New Year and God Bless each of you this year. God will provide us with truth somehow!
HAPPY and HEALTHY NEW YEAR to everyone!!!!
Diana
IWasThere said...
TruthSleuth,
Sadly, you missed the point of the message 180 degrees.
5:57 PM, December 31, 2006
No, actually I didn't miss the point. It's just that I am genuinely disappointed that my pastor has not led us in this direction from the beginning of his ministry here. We all need to be on our faces before God because He is God and He won't use us if we're not out of the pride business. I grieve for my church that my pastor has not shown me the Godly example that Joe Jernigan has not only with his message but with his life. And the best example is Jesus as Paul points out in Phil 2:5-8:
5Your attitude should be the same as that of Christ Jesus:
6Who, being in very nature God,
did not consider equality with God something to be grasped,
7but made himself nothing,
taking the very nature of a servant,
being made in human likeness.
8And being found in appearance as a man,
he humbled himself
and became obedient to death—
even death on a cross!
TS (from the prone position)
piglet,
Amen to your 5:57 pm post. Anytime a pastor mentioned warring forces to me before this I always thought we were talking about darkness outside the Church as well. Now somehow the darkness has steamrolled into the Church. I never thought I would see this day either.
Can you tell me how full GBC was this morning? I was there last week and it was packed but since there were 2 services this morning, I was curious.
Thanks,
Diana
Happy New Year to all. May we be in awe of what God will do in 2007 and may we rejoice at the glory He brings to Himself through BBC...however He chooses to do it.
TS
I wanted to check and see what kind of prayer groups those on this board have formed over the last several months? Are some of you meeting on a regular basis to prayer for our church, our pastor, PW son, PW family, PW, etc etc??
I have been thinking about this.
For all of those who are hanging in there with SG, yet at the same time, agreeing with us that PW should have been fired on the spot..wonder if they would feel any differently if PW had used that 6 month period to rape and or sodomize THEIR child or grandchild?
It's so easy to give SG a pass when it does not affect them directly. As long as it happens to anyone else but them..it's ok..they make allowances.
And someone made a comment about it only being 3 or 4 of us..LOL, if that is the case..those 3 or 4 of us are sure busy making hits on the 'saving bellevue' site..we each must have hit it close to 100,000 times!!! My finger is SOOO sore!!!
Will another year bring us the grace we so desperately need? Or will the New Year have some of us continue in the attempt to dismantle a man of God? Like many of you I have been disappointed in the actions and decisions which our new pastor made in 2006. But I truly believe that he has been humbled by his actions and in some cases his inactions. Before I get the responsive questions from some of you who will ask how can I support a pastor who has allowed a pedophile to remain in my church for 6 months, ask yourself how someone could have allowed Paul Williams to remain for 16 ½ years? You do realize that his wife and if the reports are true, another minister, allowed Paul to hide this sin. But yet it is so easy to blame Bro. Steve for his errors in judgment. Maybe that’s because on this particular blog he’s the target of all who have become disenfranchised with our church. But that loss of right happened long before Bro. Steve became our pastor. Are there any among us who has not received God’s infinite love and forgiveness?
Will the blogger without sin cast the first stone? Jesus asked the woman at the well where her accusers were. He knew that one day that they would be throwing rocks from an internet blog. Jesus understood that His blood would provide the grace needed for all degrees of sin. He knew that the writer of much of the New Testament would go from killing Christians to teaching them about forgiveness. Yet some of you write how difficult it is to receive God’s Word from a man who has made mistakes. Is our God so small? I think not.
I have followed this blog since the inception. I, like many of you, wanted to know just what was going on at our church. It seemed like the internet contained more information than we were being provided elsewhere. But I have seen a turn in this blog from one of providing a place to gather for exchange of information to one that now harbors the half truths and lies which we fled here to avoid. I read on this blog where some of you post suppositions (including the blog master) only to have readers post their thoughts and feelings as if those writings were gospel. As if Bro. Steve hasn’t created enough of his own problems for us to question, we now get to examine speculative sin in his life. Ladies and gentlemen, fellow Christians, enough is enough. Whether you are for Bro. Steve or against him, he is still the pastor of our church. And he would not be there without God allowing that to happen. God is in control.
As we begin 2007, I would ask that you take a step back and ask yourself one question. Is what I’m doing furthering the Gospel of Christ?
Before you take the time to respond to my posts be aware that I don’t have the time or the inclination of an ACE to reply to each and every post. Don’t make assumptions about my motive nor who I am. I am just a voice in the crowd who understands that God has forgiven me of all my moral failures. No he has never removed the consequences of those sins but I’ve been forgiven none the less. My God is a big God!
4545,
Of course we would pray for PW's son and family. WE are the ones OUTRAGED by what he did to his son. WE are the ones that want to see him GO TO JAIL for what he did.
I do believe, in your previous posts, that it is YOU who has continually disrespected PW's son by showing such sympathy for PW, in not wanting him to go to jail, and being so concerned that PW must be so miserable ( ad nauseum)
If he is out christmas shopping instead of in bed with the covers pulled over his head, it is apparant that he is NOT ashamed of himself. But then again, pedofiles are usually socio paths. If they were't, they would not be pedafiles. Here's a definition of sociopath for your convenience:
Someone whose social behavior is extremely abnormal. Sociopaths are interested only in their personal needs and desires, without concern for the effects of their behavior on others.
The American Heritage® New Dictionary of Cultural Literacy, Third Edition. Houghton Mifflin Company, 2005. 01 Jan. 2007
Let THAT definition sink in, 45, because THAT is the picture of PW.
And to answer your question if we will pray for PW, yes, I will pray for PW, but I do not think that my prayers for PW will be the same as yours. I will pray that the sins of PW are uncovered so that he can repent. I will pray that his sins are uncovered so that he can spend the rest of his life in jail so that he cannot sodomize another innocent child. I will pray that if PW is EVER out of jail, that there will be a HUGE sign in his front yard that says:
CHILD RAPIST LIVES HERE. KEEP YOUR CHILDREN AWAY.
Better yet, maybe he should have a big X branded onto his forehead. That way, everywhere he goes, parents can grab their children and run away as fast as they can.
ANd before you say that this is extreme and cruel, you go back and re-read ( if you read them at all) of the stories of abuse by some on here. There is no such thing as being extreme and cruel when it comes to protecting our children from a sex offender. And unless you are willing to serve up your children or grandchildren to this man, stop feeling sorry for HIM!!!
Can someone give me a bio on Bryan Miller? Wife's name, kids'
names, etc
Still thinking.
Let's talk about PW's wife. Folks, in dealing with incest, it is rare that the other parent does not know, or does not suspect. Part of the outrage is the victim's feelings that no one protected them. Who would be the closest one to protect the child? Who would be the closest to the situation?
As difficult as this is, PW's wife is culpable here. That little boy DESERVED to be protected.
In all the incest survivor support groups that I have been involved in, there was a common thread: The mother failed to protect her child. There was as much anger at the mother as the perp.
Why do mothers remain silent? I'll tell you why. It's the path of least resistence for them. They have a need to protect the status quo: where they live, their standing in society, their mealticket. It's a very sick situation and extremely dysfunctional.
I say all this to take heed before feeling sorry for Mrs. PW. There's plenty of blame to go around in that home.
Oh, and 4545, before you jump on me for my post about Mrs. PW, unless you have personal, FIRST HAND experience with incest, I suggest that you keep quiet. You do not have any idea what you are talking about. Any commnent you have on this subject will be born out of ignorance on the topic.
Exodus 23:1-3
"You shall not utter a false report. You shall not join hands with a wicked man, to be a malicious witness. You shall not follow a multitude to do evil; nor shall you bear witness in a suit, turning aside after a multitude, so as to pervert justice;nor shall you be partial to a poor man in his suit."
JustMyOpinion:
If i might offer My opinion on your post, it appears to me that you are over simplifying this entire MESS when you simply watch the man at the pulpit, once a week, on sunday morning. That entire event at that pulpit is orchestrated with smoke and mirrors to manipulate you into feeling just the way you do.
If you want to THINK about a few things, go back and read the posts from CLOSETOTHEINNERCIRCLE.
I started reading the Bible thru for the third time last year (seems just like yesterday) time on Dec 7 and my first verse for 2007 was Exodus 23:1 at 4:30am. The Word guides us in all matters of life! Good morning!
Just My Opinion, 4545, Memphis,
Please go back and read the post from SWTT at 8:29 PM, December 31, 2006.
Do you know how many times I have heard that SG is "truely humbled now"? When SG is truely humble, it will not have to be advertised. SG has had total control of the handling of these situations. Do you realize how bad all the bloggers have wanted to see SG do the right things?
Your posts are strange. Somehow we can all stand around the fire, hold hands and sing we are one in the bond of love and all this will just go away?
You just now suggest prayer? As if many of these posts have not been soaked in prayer (I do realize some are not)?
You may not be aware, but it has been said that if you believe as many of us do, "we are wasting our time praying"? This comes right out of a past Deacon Chairmans mouth!!!
You have no idea how these men have abused your trust because you do not want to ask or see. I did not want to ask or see either. However, I had a responsibility to my family. We all do. Do you think you can use these men as your excuse? Do you believe that you are to follow man "Blindly", as it has been told by Deacon Officers?
Watchinghisstory, I do not know if you are for the truth. I believe this verse applies directly to what the leadership of BBC has been doing!
Exodus 23:1-3
"You shall not utter a false report. You shall not join hands with a wicked man, to be a malicious witness. You shall not follow a multitude to do evil; nor shall you bear witness in a suit, turning aside after a multitude, so as to pervert justice;nor shall you be partial to a poor man in his suit."
False reports have been uttered against many who have left BBC! There have been many malicious witnesses who have spouted lies from our sacred pulpit! Deacons have threatened the ones they "serve" with litigation!
SG still has the ability (as he always has) to bring peace, and unity back to BBC. We are still waiting for him to do the right thing. We are waiting for Harry Smith, Chuck Taylor, Jeff Arnold, Brian Miller, John Crockett, David Coombs, John Caldwell, Mark Daugherty, Wayne Vandersteeg, and others to show themselves worthy of the the trust they assumed long ago. We long for the day when trust is restored and the clouds of shame at BBC are lifted.
bbc refugee
with all due respect to you, neither do I know if you are for the truth. I slept good last night and the first thing this morning I read Exodus 23:1 from God's Word, the truth. So though I happen to side with your view in this matter, I started the day with THE TRUTH. So when this issue is resolved it will not be who is standing by your side but are we standing on the WORD. This is a very holy battle and the world is watching.
just my opinion said,
Will another year bring us the grace we so desperately need? Or will the New Year have some of us continue in the attempt to dismantle a man of God?
Don't confuse grace with not doing the right thing. Grace is not condoning sin. Grace includes confronting sin, dealing with it, letting the consequences of one's actions take place, and forgiving that person thru Christ.
Who is trying to dismantle a man of God? I'd hate to see what you would have done to Martin Luther.
What is it that would push even you over the top with a pastor? I guarantee you that even you have your breaking point. Do you believe in 1 Timothy? Do you believe there are qualifications of a pastor? What is it? If you could think about what you are saying just for a minute.
Because there are some who love the Lord and believe a pastor can't lead a church with the qualities of Steve Gaines, don't hammer anyone standing for integrity behind the pulpit. It's easy to try and make yourself look holier than thou as if anyone who disagrees with you is sinning.
Liberals inside the church have always done this. They try to make right seem wrong and wrong seem right. You see this same type of activity in government. I guess this is human nature when running from God's Word.
If you can honestly write that you would never ask a pastor to step down from the pulpit for anything, I'd like you to admit it. If you can't make that satement, rethink your earlier post.
I love you in the Lord and pray for the day Bellevue can return to worshiping in Spirit and in Truth.
Integrity does count.
Swtt
WOW!! I am in awe of your last post. Sometimes, a person can post just a few words, and those words SCREAM the truth...
In particular, I am referring to your question to JUSTMYOPINION, where you asked her what her breaking point would be..you asked her if there would ever be ANYTHING that a pastor would do that she would want him to resign.
Assuming her answer, deep in her OWN mind is yes...then why would she criticize us?
WatchingHISstory,
I am sorry that my post came across personal. It was not intended.
JustMyOpinion,
Thank you for your post at 5:17 this morning. How wonderful to get up and greet the new year and find such a refreshing word posted! I praise God for your courage and your insight, and pray that He will richly bless you for your call to all of us to re-place our faith and trust in God. Thank you so much. He truly is a bigger God and He is all-powerful and in control, and able to do so much more with this entire situation than any of us dare to imagine. "Oh, for grace to trust Him more." Happy New Year!
4545 said...
I wanted to check and see what kind of prayer groups those on this board have formed over the last several months? Are some of you meeting on a regular basis to prayer for our church, our pastor, PW son, PW family, PW, etc etc??
I'd like to share that I have been before the Father everyday for over a year, many times a day (sometimes in the middle of the night), many times weeping for the church that I have called home for over 30 years.
I have prayed with my husband, I have prayed with my friends, I have prayed with my family...
This situation has been like nothing I could have ever imagined facing and I am trusting our Great God to work miracles!
And, although I have not been a part of a formal group--I am CERTAIN that I am not alone in my petitions!
Happy New Year and may we all grow in the grace and knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ in 2007!
Good Morning everyone and happy new year!
So, who here has made the committment to read the Bible thru this year?
Who will commit to memorize 52 verses? And if you need a suggessted list let me know.
It is really very easy and takes so little time. C'mon just do it!
Alas, we get to the time of the responses. First of all I did not state that I was in support of Bro. Steve remaining as pastor. One writer has already assumed I do. They would not be correct. Second someone suggested that I don't understand incest. They would be wrong, unfortunately too wrong. But yet you would discredit me without knowing the facts. Why so quick to cast the first stones?
Those responses bring me to my point of my original post. No longer does some blog about knowledge and truth but about supposition. And then others rejoice as to the blogger’s response as if it were gospel. Hail the stone thrower? And please quote scripture and verse on that.
You ask me to read another’s previous blog and then ask how I can blog my opinion. What in my opinion is offensive? Asking that we refrain from half truths, suppositions, and lies cannot be debated. Yet you question my blog that was asking us to maintain integrity in our blogging. I didn’t include gossip because that would cease another form of entertainment that some of you richly enjoy. That was not a nice comment but some of you need to hear it.
What is my breaking point with our pastor you ask? That is not the point and you should know it. Please know that God is in charge and will allow this situation to bring glory to His name. God doesn’t need Bellevue Baptist Church, Dr. Steve Gaines, or me. We need God as does everyone who at some point will bow and proclaim Him Lord.
justmyopinion,
SWTT did a fantastic job responding to your post, but I had a few thoughts I wanted to share as well.
[i] "dismantle" a "man of God" [/i]
This is just MY opinion, but that is not what I see happening here. And I'll just let that be for now...
[i]"is what I'm doing furthering the Gospel of Christ?" [/i]
Is dismissing a long series of serious "errors in judgement" just because a person is a pastor of a large church furthering the Gospel? Absolutely not!
[i] My God is a big God. {/i}
I certainly agree with you here. He is also a just God. And without repentance, there is no forgiveness of sins.
Thanks for sharing your thoughts.
sorry about the weird markings in my last post... I was having an italics flashback. :)
I have committed to reading the Bible through--I started this morning :)
I will also take the "verse" challenge.
Standingontheshoulders1973 said...
I have committed to reading the Bible through--I started this morning :)
I will also take the "verse" challenge.
Excellent!! :-)
Just My Opinion SAID:
What is my breaking point with our pastor you ask? That is not the point and you should know it.
****
I disagree, this is the EXACT point.
WE have reached the breaking point.
When will you reach yours?
I have committed to read the Bible through again this year, as well.
Now for the memorization thing ... the ol' gray mare ain't what she used to be, but I'll TRY.
And I am praying for our church throughout the day, but specifically at 5 every morning.
My Dear brothers and sisters in Christ,
I have been lurking here for months, reading every post, reading links and studying this situation. As a Memphis area resident and a Southern Baptist, I know Bellevue to be a cornerstone of the SBC. There are so many issues here, it's overwhelming to even think to address them all.
I was part of a church split 9 years ago because of Warrenism. This has crept into our churches, and then has been lauded. My former pastor, now deceased, said "If it takes a circus to get them in, it'll take a circus to keep them here." Is church supposed to be a circus? NO. Church is supposed to be reverent, a time to worship the HOLY GOD. There is no room for "standing O's" when worshipping. God does not need nor want our applause; He desires our obedience, faith, and awe. All of Grace said it beautifully on 12-30 at 9:17 PM: "there's no scriptural mandate to allure the world into the church..nor to adjust the church in order to lure them in...we do have a mandate to go out into the world and win them to Christ..the church is for the building up of the body to do the work of evangelism and discipleship." This is exactly what SBC needs to remember when guiding our churches.
Integrity: It is the cornerstone of a person and a church. If one does not garner trust, nothing he says or does is worth anything. Whether it be "an itty-bitty fence,"not bothering to check out the doctrine of a church before giving $25,000, or changing positions on statements about MABTS, once trust is gone, it can rarely be rebuilt. This has nothing to do with forgiveness or grace. We can forgive and still not allow ourselves to be misled again. That's similar to the fact that even if God and people forgive, consequences still have to be dealt with. Karla Faye Tucker was an ax murderer in Texas who became a Christian on death row. She wanted to have her sentence changed based on the fact that she had become a Christian. That could not happen. She was forgiven, a child of God, but consequences for her previous actions still had to take place. David was forgiven but still not allowed to build the temple because of the blood on his hands. David was even called "Man after my own heart" but he still had to pay the penalty for his disobedience. We are ALL sinners and all need forgiveness, but, according to James, a pastor is held to a higher responsibility. He is responsible for leading God's sheep and with that comes a higher level of accountability. Steve Gaines has to be held accountable for his actions, not just from God, but from the church leaders as well.
I have been so impressed with this blog in that, for the most part, I see Christians searching and seeking God's face. I believe this is called a crisis of faith and has served to force us to go back to the one true "guidebook": the Bible. Sometimes we lose sight of that, don't we? We are busy and think we have a handle on it, when in reality, we are stagnating, or counting on someone else to tell us what we need to know. A large church has unique challenges and has to have a leader ready to guide the church through those challenges with wisdom, integrity, grace, and responsibility. Other pastors within the church have to be held accountable for their actions, and I'm not talking about tithing. How they run their homes, relate to people, and fulfill their job duties are all addressed in scripture. I believe BBC needs to take the scales off and reexamine the entire structure of the church. I think you are on the right track with requesting by-laws and wanting to update them.
The PW situation: Right is right and wrong is wrong.....Bellevue has been put in a terrible position by those willing to keep this secret. It's hard for me to even imagine how he was allowed to stay for 17 years, but I am also dismayed at how he is still there now, receiving a paycheck from the church. I can't even fathom how his son and family are having to deal with this. It makes me physically ill. It has to be dealt with in the church immediately. Let the law do their thing; that shouldn't impact what the church does in the least.
I know many of you are visiting GBC and are enjoying being under Dr. Mike Spradlin and Dr. Whitmire. I would caution you not to get too comfortable because GBC is dealing with a lot of Warrenism as well, and these wonderful men of God are only there in an interim capacity.
I have a suggestion: why couldn't BBC schedule an all day business meeting? Schedule it for MLK Day or give at least 2 weeks notice for another day so everyone can get off work. Serve a continential breakfast at 8:30: start in the sanctuary at 9. Have mikes placed throughout. Have all pastors, deacons, and other players in attendance. Start answering questions. Serve lunch. Don't quit until questions have been answered. Record this and send a CD to every family. Then 2 weeks later, schedule a business meeting for a CONFIDENTIAL confidence vote. Have people from outside the church counting ballots.
I'm sure I will read this and wish I had said more. I love you all, and I have to tell you that I was talking to a dear friend that is a regular poster and I told her that I have been so impressed with so many on this site that I wish we could all meet and have a Bible study together. You have done a great job. Josh, I so appreciate your wisdom and responsibility. NASS, WOW! You work so hard to make good points and keep emotions in check, thank you.
Know that I am praying daily, sometimes hourly, for you all. Who knows...I might be joining BBC just to be with you guys!
Concerned:
What a great idea about the business meeting!!!
However, It makes waaaay too much sense and would be much too fair for the powers that be to allow this to happen.
But we still need to pray for a meeting just as you describe.
just my opinion said,
"Will another year bring us the grace we so desperately need? Or will the New Year have some of us continue in the attempt to dismantle a man of God?"
RESPONSE:
Taken from a post on Wade Burleson's BLOG
BR said...
Wade,
I want to clarify some issues. There are those who are ill informed that are making statements on the situation at Bellevue. I would encorage you all to read and heed before you form an opinion one way or the other. Dr Gaines was welcomed with much eagerness when he came as our pastor. Not too many weeks into his ministry there, things began changing, which we were expecting, but not the kind of changes that you will see in a normal administration/leadership change. He formed a circle of wealthy business men around him and began firing long time staffers, he took over the management of the finances and recently gave $25,000.00 to a liberal Methodist church where the female pastor performs gay marriages and promotes abortion, he has lied from the pulpit over many issues, one was the 'fence" issue which turned ut to be a 4 ft fence in a gated community with obvious NO TRESPASSING signs in plain view. There are many more and the pedophile incident is only the tip of the iceberg.
I know we are all sinners and we all need salvation and forgiveness - To me, even the split second that a sinful thought fleets across my mind is sin in the eyes of a Holy God. However, it is my choice to act upon it (the sin) and there lies the problem. Paul Williams (the pedophile)and Steve Gaines both made bad choices. I know Paul Williams on a first name basis and there was absolutely no evidence of his past in his daily walk as far as I could see. But the Lord knew, and for some reason we do not now know, the sin was confessed to Steve Gaines and confirmed by the son this past June. As the leader of our church, it was Steve Gaines' responsibility before Almighty God to take immediate action to protect HIS church from this scandal. He failed to do so and is relying on his compassion as an excuse for inobedience. I have seen no where in everything Steve Gaines has said or what has been released by the church, that he ever prayed over his decision and the Lord had given him peace to act upon that decision. He is shooting from the hip. Why? He has lost his ability to lead. Those in the Lord's will, sleep well at night, they stand strong and tall and are not grasping at every straw in an attempt to rectify yet another "mistake of the mind".
Dr Adrian Rogers did not know of the situation regarding the pedophile. He would have acted immediately and decidedly firm. He even went so far once as to fire an entire paint crew for violating a no-smoking agreement on church property - what would make anyone think that he would do less for a pedophile?
I am saying all of this to say that I believe that Steve Gaines has the potential of being a great man of God, but at this point in time, he is damaged goods at Bellevue and that is by his own hand.
Sunday, December 24, 2006
Justmyopinion,
I am wondering if you feel that the members of the New Life Church in Colorado Springs, CO dismantled their pastor, Ted Haggard?
There's a big difference between Ted and Steve. Ted had the good grace to step down and not tear his church apart at the seams. Also, Ted's sin did not involve innocent children.
Do you think that maybe he 'dismantled' himself?
Everyone has a breaking point. We have reached ours. WE do not feel that SG is fit to lead our church.
We have not dismantled him. He is dismantling himself.
MOM4, there is a distinction between dismantling a pastor and holding a pastor accountable for his actions. I and others do hold Bro. Steve accountable and believe that he will suffer the consequences of his actions. I try to select words which properly communicate my meaning. When I utilized the word “dismantle” it was one specifically chosen. There are bloggers who through innuendos and half truths attempt to tear down Bro. Steve. I believe that our pastor doesn’t need this additional help inasmuch as he has done a pretty good job at creating his own problems.
Why the continued challenge of one’s breaking point with Bro. Steve? What has God told us about His breaking point with us? I ask where the love for Bro. Steve is shown in the writings of many blogs on this website. Yet, we continue to look for the perfect stone which to be our projectile.
just my opinion,
You stated that we are dismantling a man of God. I have something else to add to my previous post about that.
How can we dismantle SG when he is so busy doing it to himself?
Did WE tell him or participate in the fence climbing?
Did WE issue a check to a church with conflicting views on homosexuality and abortion?
Did WE allow a pedofile lose on the children and the sexually abused women at BBC?
Did WE allow PW to CONTINUE to 'counsel' right up until the time that he was put on paid leave?
Did WE dismantle the Communications Committee after it got too big and the questions were getting too close to the truth?
Did WE charge our daughter's birthday party to the church?
Did WE disrespect Mrs. Rogers when she requested that SG clear her husband's name from the pulpit with regard to PW?
Did WE disrespect Jim Whitmire after his many years of service to our church?
Did WE form a circle of wealthy businessmen to protect us so that we could run the church as we please?
Did WE stand before the congregation, Dr. Rogers included, and declare that we were going to teach BBC how to be a 'praying' church?
Are WE continuing to pay an admitted pedofile his salry with the tithes of hardworking LAW ABIDING men and women?
Nope. SG is doing a fine job dismantling himself and his credibility and trust all by himself. It doesn't look like he needs our help.
cjesusnme,
I want to start the year right also. We want to be faithful in church. So, do we attend while waiting? BBC does not seem to have the infrastruture to call for his resignation. The standing ovations act as smoke and mirrors and confuse the masses as well as possibly intimidate any would be efforts to argue for a resignation. So, should we stay back and watch and wait? Or, should we attend church? Why should we leave? We were here first? We were part of the church SG said he wanted to lead. When in fact, he had to change it to a different church in order to lead it (I use the term, lead, loosely) We wanted to show total support after his apologies from the pulpit, but now everything has changed.
With all that's happened at BBC this last year, one thing has come through loud and clear...there has been a serious degrading of sensitivity to sin. There's only one reason that can be...a severe loss of understanding of the Holiness of Almighty God. Only in the light of His absolute righteousness and holiness, can we truly see the exceeding sinfulness of sin. Much has been made of the small issue of the fence and trespassing...folks..the height of a fence makes no difference..if there was only a white stripe painted on the ground for a boundary, with clearly posted no trespassing signs in view...then stepping across that line would still be trespassing...our view of sin and God's view of sin are just not matching up. Grace is not a free pass for sin...grace is God's work in us "both to will and to do of His good pleasure." God grant it to us to catch a fresh vision of His glory and holiness.
Isaiah 6:1-7 1 In the year that King Uzziah died, I saw the LORD seated on a throne, high and exalted, and the train of his robe filled the temple. 2 Above him were seraphs, each with six wings: With two wings they covered their faces, with two they covered their feet, and with two they were flying. 3 And they were calling to one another: "Holy, holy, holy is the LORD Almighty; the whole earth is full of his glory." 4 At the sound of their voices the doorposts and thresholds shook and the temple was filled with smoke. "Woe is me!" I cried. "I am ruined! For I am a man of unclean lips, and I live among a people of unclean lips, and my eyes have seen the King, the LORD Almighty." 6 Then one of the seraphs flew to me with a live coal in his hand, which he had taken with tongs from the altar. 7 With it he touched my mouth and said, "See, this has touched your lips; your guilt is taken away and your sin atoned for."
JustMyOpinion
I hope that you will forgive me if i don't shed tears over the fact that sG is shown this.
He did not care if the chidren of BBC were put at risk during the 6 month period that HE knew about it.
I cannot feel sorry for a man that has so blatently and negligently put his sheep at risk. And for what?
I do not feel sorry for a man that allowed a sexual pervert to continue counseling right up until the time he was put on PAID leave.
Steve Gaines is JUST a man. He is not deserving of a pass on his CRIMINAL behavior, just because he is a pastor. As a matter of fact, we should hold him to a HIGHER standard, yet, you and others like you, seem to feel that he is above reproach, JUST because he IS a pastor.
He has created his own problems..It is not our fault that he now has to see them in black and white, in print.
And if he doesn't like what WE say on OUR blog, he doesn't have to read it. He should read a different blog.
( Have I heard something like that before?)
all of grace and fed up,
thank you and bless you for your insight, wisdom and truth!!
JMO said...
"Why the continued challenge of one’s breaking point with Bro. Steve? What has God told us about His breaking point with us? I ask where the love for Bro. Steve is shown in the writings of many blogs on this website. Yet, we continue to look for the perfect stone which to be our projectile"
Thank you for your post, but I do not agree with your opinion, which is my perrogative. We are not casting stones, we are trying to break down the wall that Steve Gaines is building.
When Steve Gaines came, did he not immediately go about the deconstruction of BBC, it's staff, it's goal, it's purpose, it's sheep and it's dignity, then what on earth are you talking about when you accuse others of dismantling him? He has nothing to dismantle, he stands for nothing, has no integrity or strength of character and does not love Bellevue or it's rich heritage or it's people that GOD himself has placed at Bellevue.
IT IS STEVE GAINES' RESPONSIBILITY TO PROTECT THE CHURCH AND IT'S REPUTATION BEFORE A LOST AND DYING WORLD!!! The man does not get it - I have past my breaking point (which was 9/24) and it will be evident that the Lord has passed His when Steve Gaines is removed from Bellevue by HIS HAND, not mine or anyone elses.
I agree with BR, it is by Steve Gaines' own hand that his folly has befallen him.
concernedsbcer...
thanks for your insights and your prayers. If only the leadership would hold a meeting to put these things to rest!
My first memorization "project" for 2007, as suggested by Joe Jernigan yesterday morning (verses added and passage lengthened beyond v. 23 to provide total context of the quote of Jesus' words):
Then He said to them all, "If anyone desires to come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross daily, and follow me. For whoever desires to save his life will lose it, but whoever loses his life for My sake will save it. For what profit is it to a man if he gains the whole world, and is himself destroyed or lost? For whoever is ashamed of Me and My words, of him the Son of Man will be ashamed when He comes in His own glory, and in His Father's, and of the holy angels. But I tell you truly, there are some standing here who shall not taste death till they see the kingdom of God." Luke 9:23-27
justmyopinion...
If you would not mind ellaborating...Just how are you and others holding Bro. Steve accountable? It seems to me that he can just about do or say anything he wants with little or no consequences.
fedupatbbc...
what great points. We "troublemakers" get blamed so often for pointing out what has already transpired!
Also, I got a laugh out of your "going to another blog" comment! :)
allofgrace...
You are right on! I pray that I will be able to deepen my understanding of Holy, Almighty God so that I may be even more sensitive to sin in my own life.
God forbid that I become calloused to sin and its effects on my life. I also pray that I will be able to teach my children this important truth!
I want to live a life where right is right and wrong is wrong. I want to live, and to teach my children to live in such a way that we see how far we can stay away from the "line" instead of seeing how close we can get to the "line" w/out crossing over!
By the way, if you are hunting and cross over onto someone elses land that is not fenced, nor even marked "no trespassing" you can still get into big trouble!
And thoughts from reading Genesis 1 this morning:
" … and darkness was on the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God was hovering over the face of the waters."
There was the deep, then there was the darkness on top of the deep, and then there was God, hovering OVER it all.
"Then God said, 'Let there be light,' and there was light."
Through the story of the creation, it is clear that whenever God looks at the expanse of my life and sees the void and nothingness He is sure to find there, He has the power to merely speak into my life whatever He wishes to create and it will be so. The process of change for a Christian, however, as taught in the New Testament, is to assimilate change and growth through the transforming power of His revealed Word in our hearts through the light and discipline of the Holy Spirit. Thus, God has already spoken, and through opening my heart to His instruction, it will be so. I yield to Him, He says, "Let there be light," and there is light.
The story of creation, in its entirety, humbles me as I am reminded again of the POWER of our Almighty Father God to do all things, to create order from chaos, to create peace from storm, and to ordain all things according to His own design and bring Himself glory. Yes, He is worthy of all glory and all praise!
Through creation, He has not only given us life, but has provided for all our needs. Hallelujah!
In creating us in the image of the Trinity (all present at creation), He has made us complex and beautiful beings, designed to reflect His glory. Hallelujah!
He has given us dominion over all other created things, but not dominion over each other. Hallelujah!
And He sees what He has created and He pronounces it all as "very good." Hallelujah!
Maybe,
Thank you for the scriptures:
Then He said to them all, "If anyone desires to come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross daily, and follow me. For whoever desires to save his life will lose it, but whoever loses his life for My sake will save it. For what profit is it to a man if he gains the whole world, and is himself destroyed or lost? For whoever is ashamed of Me and My words, of him the Son of Man will be ashamed when He comes in His own glory, and in His Father's, and of the holy angels. But I tell you truly, there are some standing here who shall not taste death till they see the kingdom of God." Luke 9:23-27
These are both telling and prophetic!
MJM,
As it does me and my Wife. We just finished reading today's Word. The start of a wonderful journey through the Word this year! To all who see these words. Without this strife and this blog my eyes would not be towards the Lord's Word today. That is for sure. Praise God.
Maybe,
When we see the truth of God's glory and brilliance in our own broken lives, it's easy to know His truth and Divine Will will prevail.
"The story of creation, in its entirety, humbles me as I am reminded again of the POWER of our Almighty Father God to do all things, to create order from chaos, to create peace from storm, and to ordain all things according to His own design and bring Himself glory. Yes, He is worthy of all glory and all praise.
Through creation, He has not only given us life, but has provided for all our needs. Hallelujah!
In creating us in the image of the Trinity (all present at creation), He has made us complex and beautiful beings, designed to reflect His glory. Hallelujah!"
MSDreamwise,
As to your question earlier about what you should to. My Wife and I have begun to read the bible today with a goal of reading it all the way through. As for church on Sunday you don't have to attend a church to have church. In this day and age you can go to sermonaudio.com and choose from a multitude of messages that would bless you and yours. We're praying God moves on these issues but until he does we'll probably be holding our own Worship right here at home.
Does anyone really believe that at this point, even if there were to be an all-day business meeting in which the membership was allowed to ask questions that (1) you'd get any real answers or (2) that a "confidence" vote would result in a majority vote of "no confidence"? I don't. Not now.
It's been interesting to me throughout this whole process what the "last straw" for different people has been. With some it was the $25,000 donation to FUMC. With many it seems to be the mishandling of the PW situation. But it's obvious from the standing O's and continued defense by many of SG and everything he's done, that the majority still hasn't reached that last straw. I think a lot of them will, but that time hasn't come yet.
All I can say is just be patient, pray, and trust that things are being done behind the scenes. Integrity does count, and the truth will win in the end.
Go back and read "closetotheinnercircle's" posts. I'm wondering if that isn't a hint of things to come. (NASS has no personal knowledge of those things, but they do raise some interesting questions.)
fedupatbbc posted some questions which I will attempt to offer my opinion.
Did WE tell him or participate in the fence climbing? It was a mistake, still is a mistake but a mistake that has been asked for forgiveness and I have forgiven. John Caldwell has not asked for forgiveness but that is his sin to deal with.
Did WE issue a check to a church with conflicting views on homosexuality and abortion? Our leadership did and has regretted that decision.
Did WE allow a pedophile lose on the children and the sexually abused women at BBC? Yes, for 17 years, well before Bro. Steve. I do not approve of his decision on this. We in this instance being anyone with knowledge of the act. I am hoping that the investigation will help us understand how this could have been allowed. I believe that Bro. Steve made the wrong decision on this matter. But for the liars (I know that’s harsh) who claim that he did this to hold it over Paul Williams head are the ones my original blog for 2007 challenges.
Did WE allow PW to CONTINUE to 'counsel' right up until the time that he was put on paid leave? I do not know this to be a fact nor have I heard of any personal truth as to this being a fact.
Did WE dismantle the Communications Committee after it got too big and the questions were getting too close to the truth? I believe that it was a concept flawed from the beginning. I must say that the tones of the meetings were not conducive to looking for the truth but one looking for making points.
Did WE charge our daughter's birthday party to the church? This is one of those charges which can inflame but contains half truths. If you were aware of the policy of Colonial Country Club you would understand how this could have happened to anyone. Bro. Steve had believed that he could put this charge on his personal credit card. The club rules were such that it had to be charged to the account holder (Bellevue Baptist). He immediately without being prompted told Linda that when the bill came that he would write a person check to cover.
Did WE disrespect Mrs. Rogers when she requested that SG clear her husband's name from the pulpit with regard to PW? I have seen any proof that Mrs. Rogers asked Bro. Steve to make clarification prior to the announcement. It is my understanding that she was not notified in advance.
Did WE disrespect Jim Whitmire after his many years of service to our church? Yes, Steve Gaines had confessed this and asked forgiveness from the pulpit.
Did WE form a circle of wealthy businessmen to protect us so that we could run the church as we please? The men in leadership have been there for a number of years. I personally know many of those men and find their testimony and service to our church to be without question one of integrity.
Did WE stand before the congregation; Dr. Rogers included, and declare that we were going to teach BBC how to be a 'praying' church?Yes and I hope that we continue toward that goal.
Are WE continuing to pay an admitted pedophile his salary with the tithes of hardworking LAW ABIDING men and women? Yes and the reason in one of a legal nature in order to protect the rights of individuals as well as the church. This is a different matter than one of adultery in that it is a criminal act. Something that Bro. Steve has now been keenly made aware. Our leadership having become aware of the situation took the proper course of action legally. And yes this should have happened 6 months ago but the leadership acted properly when informed by Bro. Steve.
It is not due to the lack of an abundance of stones but ones willingness to pick up the stones tht is the underlying decision we must make.
nbbcof,
I agree...those posts were very interesting to say the least..I wonder how many just passed them by without seriously considering them.
Watchinghistory:
Exodus 23:1 was what the Lord gave you as your guide for 2007. You just "happened" to be at that point in your reading through the Bible for the third time.
Isn't He amazing? He is everywhere. He covers all of us who are looking to Him. He speaks to our every need at the perfect moment. He never fails. We look to Him and live.
JustMyOpinion,
A very good and civil rebuttal. Thank you. Some of the things you call mistakes I call lack of integrity.
2006hulda
I am doing honey due jobs, washing windows right now and checking this blog every 15 mins! If my wife don't catch me!
I am so excited about reading the Bible every day first thing in the morn. Dec 31 I read Ex 21 about slaves who choose to stay with their masters and I checked my journal notes to see when I read that verse before. June 16 Deuteronomy 15, 'perpetual hebrew slave' That morning I actually went to the door to see how one would set his ear lobe to be pierced and in an ackward position I told the Lord to make me a perpetual slave! And of coarse he did. 4am this morn I woke up suddenly with the first thought on my mind for this year, "I am not my own, but belong with body and soul, both in life and death, to my faithful saviour Jesus Christ." How can life get any better!
Concernedsbcer:
Your post was so specific as to beginning an actual, possible solution to our problems that need to be congregationally addressed. I loved your suggestion for an all-day meeting on Martin Luther King's holiday. That WOULD be the rather perfect day to meet, have mikes, have all parties present, make a CD, send it to all members, then follow up with a confidential confidence vote with outside people counting the ballots.
Now, will they agree to let us do it? Those who rule our church building most likely will not agree to this. It is like playing "king of the hill". You do, however, have a wonderful suggestion that I am sure that most of the posters on this blog would love to see happen. Your comments and observations are much appreciated. You have taken the time to observe and suggest truth and a way to try to HELP us. We pray that it can be as you say. We truly do pray.
Thank you. Perhaps you actually will one day be lead to join us at BBC as we all reunite to praise the Lord Jesus in spirit and in truth. We can all meet you and you us and we can study His Holy Word together. This "hard thing" will be a thing of the past and our church will have been refined by fire as pure gold. Of course, this sounds almost too wonderful, but perhaps tomorrow? Hallelujah!
Dee
Here we have what has happened to the church:
Did WE tell him or participate in the fence climbing? It was a mistake, still is a mistake but a mistake that has been asked for forgiveness and I have forgiven. John Caldwell has not asked for forgiveness but that is his sin to deal with.
Truth: Not a mistake. Sin. And against the law. They went there to confront wihtout calling first. It was a strategy...a 'tactic' perpetuated by supposedly Christian men.
Did WE issue a check to a church with conflicting views on homosexuality and abortion? Our leadership did and has regretted that decision.
Truth: Regreted a sinful decision? Was it publicly admitted to the congregation? Was forgiveness asked publicly to our Lord?
Did WE allow a pedophile lose on the children and the sexually abused women at BBC? Yes, for 17 years, well before Bro. Steve. I do not approve of his decision on this. We in this instance being anyone with knowledge of the act. I am hoping that the investigation will help us understand how this could have been allowed. I believe that Bro. Steve made the wrong decision on this matter. But for the liars (I know that’s harsh) who claim that he did this to hold it over Paul Williams head are the ones my original blog for 2007 challenges.
Truth: Bro Steve broke the law and sinned against his congregation. You do not need an investigation to understand why this was done. It was done because of sin. Does it matter what sin? The only investigation that needs to happen is just how many victims there are.
Did WE allow PW to CONTINUE to 'counsel' right up until the time that he was put on paid leave? I do not know this to be a fact nor have I heard of any personal truth as to this being a fact.
Truth: Was he working there at the time? for 6 mos as an admitted pedophile? You do know that much, right?
Did WE dismantle the Communications Committee after it got too big and the questions were getting too close to the truth? I believe that it was a concept flawed from the beginning. I must say that the tones of the meetings were not conducive to looking for the truth but one looking for making points.
Truth: Oh dear, someone does not like the 'tone' of a meeting that is for finding out truth because the leadership is NOT forthcoming. What exactly do you expect?
Did WE charge our daughter's birthday party to the church? This is one of those charges which can inflame but contains half truths. If you were aware of the policy of Colonial Country Club you would understand how this could have happened to anyone. Bro. Steve had believed that he could put this charge on his personal credit card. The club rules were such that it had to be charged to the account holder (Bellevue Baptist). He immediately without being prompted told Linda that when the bill came that he would write a person check to cover.
Truth: He should have known that going in (are you sure he didn't but it came to light later) He should never do anything like this. It looks bad. It looks arrogant. It was not a reimbursed busienss expense for crying out loud. What is a church doing being a member of a country club anyway? Ridiculous! With tithe dollars.
Did WE disrespect Mrs. Rogers when she requested that SG clear her husband's name from the pulpit with regard to PW? I have seen any proof that Mrs. Rogers asked Bro. Steve to make clarification prior to the announcement. It is my understanding that she was not notified in advance.
Truth: He should have done that anyway without her asking if that is PW told him and others.
Did WE disrespect Jim Whitmire after his many years of service to our church? Yes, Steve Gaines had confessed this and asked forgiveness from the pulpit.
Truth: How convenient after the fact. So, he does bad things, then confesses and asks for forgiveness. Over and over. Can you say 'cheap grace'. Why the continual bad decisions that he must ask forgiveness for?
Did WE form a circle of wealthy businessmen to protect us so that we could run the church as we please? The men in leadership have been there for a number of years. I personally know many of those men and find their testimony and service to our church to be without question one of integrity.
Truth: Now their integrity is certainly being questioned considering they are harboring a pedophile and a pastor who makes very bad decisions.
Did WE stand before the congregation; Dr. Rogers included, and declare that we were going to teach BBC how to be a 'praying' church?Yes and I hope that we continue toward that goal.
Truth: You need to know scripture in order to pray. God's answers are in HIS Word. He uses His Word to speak to us. Your leadership does not know scripture. They have proved it over and over.
Are WE continuing to pay an admitted pedophile his salary with the tithes of hardworking LAW ABIDING men and women? Yes and the reason in one of a legal nature in order to protect the rights of individuals as well as the church. This is a different matter than one of adultery in that it is a criminal act. Something that Bro. Steve has now been keenly made aware. Our leadership having become aware of the situation took the proper course of action legally. And yes this should have happened 6 months ago but the leadership acted properly when informed by Bro. Steve.
Truth: They did NOT take the proper legal action. And, your pastor may be legally liable for it, too. What you wrote here is totally ridiculous. If PW was fired, he had no recourse. Churches are not subject to labor laws. Nor, do they have to pay unemployment, severence etc. PW would have been fired and that is that. What you wrote above is a lie as it pertains to PW. Now, if the victims start suing you, you may have a problem because your pastor harbored a pedophile. That could be your 'legal' problem. Do not assume that everyone reading this blog does not know how this stuff works. Some of us have been very involved in HR systems in churches.
It is not due to the lack of an abundance of stones but ones willingness to pick up the stones tht is the underlying decision we must make.
Truth: It is due to a lack of knowing scripture. And that includes your leadership.
Your idea of forgiveness is cheap grace. We are not talking about some random member...we are talking about the "Shepherd" who is a servant and authority at the same time. You need to quit listening to men and get into your scripture.
Harsh words? Yes!
And this blog is a result of your leaders deceptions, sins and lying.
The 'watchmen' are blind.
Just My Opinion says:
Did WE disrespect Mrs. Rogers when she requested that SG clear her husband's name from the pulpit with regard to PW? I have seen any proof that Mrs. Rogers asked Bro. Steve to make clarification prior to the announcement. It is my understanding that she was not notified in advance.
********
FACT: Mrs. Rogers was forced to go on radio and clear her husband's name becuase, as SHE says, she called the church to ask that they clear her husband's name, and they told her that they had said enough and that nothing more needed to be said.
JMO says:
Did WE stand before the congregation; Dr. Rogers included, and declare that we were going to teach BBC how to be a 'praying' church?Yes and I hope that we continue toward that goal.
****
How do you think that made Dr. Rogers feel? Do you think it was a respectful thing to do? I don't. It took a total lack of integrity to say that.
JMO says:
Did WE disrespect Jim Whitmire after his many years of service to our church? Yes, Steve Gaines had confessed this and asked forgiveness from the pulpit.
****
That is a matter that has not been properly dealt with, and some would say that was an outright lie from the pulpit. At best, SG's words that day were misleading.
JMO says;
Did WE tell him or participate in the fence climbing? It was a mistake, still is a mistake but a mistake that has been asked for forgiveness and I have forgiven. John Caldwell has not asked for forgiveness but that is his sin to deal with.
*****
It is immaterial that he has asked for forgivness. He broke the law. Is that the new standard? When we break the law, all we have to do is say " i'm sorry" and there should be no consequences? I have forgiven him for that, but it showed a tremendous lack of integrity. Do you feel that becuase he is a pastor that he should not pay a penalty for breaking the law? Do we want a lawbreaker as a pastor?
JMO says:
Did WE issue a check to a church with conflicting views on homosexuality and abortion? Our leadership did and has regretted that decision.
*****
Correction: Wayne Vandersteeg issued the apology. Have you heard SG ask for forgiveness? Wayne is not the one who made the decison to give the money to the church. Yet he apologized for it. Since when can we apologize for someone else's sin? What guidelines have been put in place so that this will not happen again? This is something that we asked at the CC meeting, and we were told, " we'll get back to you on that'
***
JMO says:
Did WE form a circle of wealthy businessmen to protect us so that we could run the church as we please? The men in leadership have been there for a number of years. I personally know many of those men and find their testimony and service to our church to be without question one of integrity.
*****
You obviously did not attend the communications committee meetings. Rolled eyes, misleading statements, " I don't know" , " i'll h ave to get back to you on that" These were not statements born in integrity.
JMO says:
Did WE allow a pedophile lose on the children and the sexually abused women at BBC? Yes, for 17 years, well before Bro. Steve. I do not approve of his decision on this. We in this instance being anyone with knowledge of the act. I am hoping that the investigation will help us understand how this could have been allowed. I believe that Bro. Steve made the wrong decision on this matter. But for the liars (I know that’s harsh) who claim that he did this to hold it over Paul Williams head are the ones my original blog for 2007 challenges.
*****
If this were a principal in a public school, would you be quite so willing to ' wait for the investigation', or would you demand that he resign at once? Could it be that you are giving this a pass becuase it was a pastor that did it?
*****
JMO says:
Did WE dismantle the Communications Committee after it got too big and the questions were getting too close to the truth? I believe that it was a concept flawed from the beginning. I must say that the tones of the meetings were not conducive to looking for the truth but one looking for making points
****
WE were seeking truth. No, wait, we were DEMANDING truth.. The entire 'committee' was smoke and mirrors. They never intended to answer any questions. It was a political ploy.
jmo says:
Did WE allow PW to CONTINUE to 'counsel' right up until the time that he was put on paid leave? I do not know this to be a fact nor have I heard of any personal truth as to this being a fact.
***
Let me assure you, with 1,000% certainty, that PW was STILL counseling and interviewing those who would want to work with children. I know this to be an ABSOLUTE FACT. I do not have permission to divulge the details, but my friend was told that she would have to talk to PW before she would be allowed to go to WINTER CAMP as a counselor.This was at the end of November, FIVE months after SG knew the truth about PW!!! Can you help me to understand how PW could be in a position to judge whether or not someone is worthy to work around children? Can you help me to understand why SG allowed PW to work in that capcity and to make those decisions?
*****
JMO says:
Are WE continuing to pay an admitted pedophile his salary with the tithes of hardworking LAW ABIDING men and women?
This is a different matter than one of adultery in that it is a criminal act. Something that Bro. Steve has now been keenly made aware.
****
Are you trying to tell us that SG had to be told, in retrospec, that the raping and sodomizing of a child is different than someone having an affair in terms of reporting it to the authorities?
Are you saying that when SG was told by PW that he had raped and sodomized his child, that SG just didnt' understand that this was a different situation than adultry?
Are you defending SG for not knowing that he should report a CRIME to the police?
ARe you aware that SG has a PHD? Do you not think that somewhere along the line in all of his years of education, that he was not taught what to do in these instances? In this day and age, that would be VERY hard to believe, yet if we take what you say at face value, we would have to believe that poor SG just didn't know any better. He was unaware that adultry and child rape would not receive the same confidence.
JMO says:
Did WE charge our daughter's birthday party to the church?
This is one of those charges which can inflame but contains half truths. If you were aware of the policy of Colonial Country Club you would understand how this could have happened to anyone. Bro. Steve had believed that he could put this charge on his personal credit card. The club rules were such that it had to be charged to the account holder (Bellevue Baptist). He immediately without being prompted told Linda that when the bill came that he would write a person check to cover.
*****
This is called " co-mingling' of funds. It is against IRS regulations for a non profit org. But, alas, poor ol steve just didn't know.
**************
For every single thing that SG does, you have given him a pass. Although you do admit that he was wrong in some instances, there is always a ' yes, but' phrase to follow.
You are not demanding accountability from your pastor. It is a constant DRIP DRIP DRIP. He has soiled the reputation that Dr. Lee, Dr. Pollard and Dr. Rogers spent decades building. When is enough enough??????
All,
My guess is that there will come a day when we won't be able to find anyone that stood and applauded.
Sorta like in the late 70's...not a single person voted for Jimmy Carter!! :)
JustMyOpinion
Thank you for opening my eyes to how unforgiving I have been.
I should immediatly call Steve Gaines and ask for his forgiveness for being angry at him for allowing Paul Williams to stay on staff for six months after he knew about him(SG's own words).He knew that Paul Williams only rapes his own son and not others,so my children were safe.
I also need to apologise to him for giving FUMC $25k he did not apologise for this but because he is "ANNNONITED BY GOD" it is none of my business to know why helped support a church that supports gay marriage,abortion ect.
I feel guilty that I was upset at him for trespassing on private property
after all he is the pastor and it is not lawbreaking for him to violate the property rights of others, just the rest of us are responsible for our actions.
You are right the CC meetings were discountinued because of people like me. How wrong and rude I was for wanting information, your right Harry Smith and Tucker had every right to denigrate us ,lie , and mock us as they are Godly men of intergity unlike us.
I need to call Mrs.Rogers to tell her she needs to apologise to Steve Gaines for stating on the radio (AM600 ) that she asked for SG to clear her husbands name(I thought I heard her say this ,but you are right ,her word is not proof of what she said) obliviously she really did not do that because SG the the Annonited leader of Bellevue Baptist Church would have honered her request.She must be a lier (right)
I need to go to Steve Gaines and ask for forgiveness. It would take a week of meetings to get it all out because the things I mentioned are only the tip of the iceberg, maybe it was a "mistake of the heart not the mind "on my part.
Trucker,
:)
CONCERNING THE SCRIPTURE OF CASTING THE FIRST STONE
I apologize for the length of this post, but have heard so much concerning the casting of stones, that I felt that it was worthy of investigation and understanding. I have included a very crude time line of the Jewish feast and days based upon Leviticus 23, because it provides a backdrop for the events surrounding the passage in John 8. I found it interesting that the Leviticus time line was chronological beginning with the first month but the actual unfolding of events concerning Christ was presented in a different order. I choose to construct my time line based on the events as they related to Christ.
Leviticus 23:1-44
Introduction of Feast vs. 23-25 - the first day of the seventh month
Day of Atonement vs. 26-32 - the tenth day of the seventh month
Feast of Tabernacles vs. 33-44 - the fifteenth day of the seventh month, lasting seven days
Passover vs. 1-5 - the fourteenth day of the first month
Feast of Unleavened Bread vs. 6-8 - the fifteenth day of the first month
Sheaf of First Fruits vs. 9-14 - determined only by God at the time of writing based upon the deliverance into Canaan
A New Offering vs. 15-21 - follows the Sheaf of First Fruits by fifty days
The Harvest vs. 22 - following all that has past for a time determined only by God
An Old Testament scholar will have to forgive the fact that this time line is not in accordance with the proper wording that should be ascribed to them.
John 7:45 - 8:11
45 Then came the officers to the chief priests and Pharisees; and they said unto them, Why have ye not brought him?
46 The officers answered, Never man spake like this man.
47 Then answered them the Pharisees, Are ye also deceived?
48 Have any of the rulers or of the Pharisees believed on him?
49 But this people who knoweth not the law are cursed.
50 Nicode'mus saith unto them, (he that came to Jesus by night being one of them,)
51 Doth our law judge any man, before it hear him, and know what he doeth?
52 They answered and said unto him, Art thou also of Galilee? Search, and look: for out of Galilee ariseth no prophet.
53 And every man went unto his own house.
1 Jesus went unto the Mount of Olives.
2 And early in the morning he came again into the temple, and all the people came unto him; and he sat down, and taught them.
3 And the scribes and Pharisees brought unto him a woman taken in adultery; and when they had set her in the midst,
4 they say unto him, Master, this woman was taken in adultery, in the very act.
5 Now Moses in the law commanded us, that such should be stoned: but what sayest thou?
6 This they said, tempting him, that they might have to accuse him. But Jesus stooped down, and with his finger wrote on the ground, as though he heard them not.
7 So when they continued asking him, he lifted up himself, and said unto them, He that is without sin among you, let him first cast a stone at her.
8 And again he stooped down, and wrote on the ground.
9 And they which heard it, being convicted by their own conscience, went out one by one, beginning at the eldest, even unto the last: and Jesus was left alone, and the woman standing in the midst.
10 When Jesus had lifted up himself, and saw none but the woman, he said unto her, Woman, where are those thine accusers? hath no man condemned thee?
11 She said, No man, Lord. And Jesus said unto her, Neither do I condemn thee: go, and sin no more.
It is worthy of noting that the story of the woman caught in adultery being brought before Jesus was immediately preceded by the Introduction of Feast described in Leviticus 23:23-25. There had been a blowing of trumpets and was a time when the people were to be turned toward God. The indication here is that the people of God needed to pay attention to what God was about to do.
Immediately following the Introduction of Feast was the Day of Atonement and the Feast of Tabernacles, where Jesus boldly spoke in the temple. On the final day of the feast, Jesus declared that he was the River of Living Water to be incarnated by the Holy Spirit. This caused the Pharisees to be outraged by his teaching and they sought to ensnare him in his words.
This brings us to the story of the woman caught in adultery. Jesus knew from eternity past of this event and the significance of it. He was not caught by surprise because He knew their motives in attempting to have an accusation against him in contrast to the law, should he reject the law that commanded that she be stoned. However, if His response had been that the woman should be stoned according to the law, they would have had an accusation against Him because He was being proclaimed as the Messiah and had not renounced such a claim. The Pharisees would then hold claim that he could not be the Savior Messiah because He had no authority beyond what was already given in the law.
His response was neither in opposition to the law nor in condemnation of the woman. Neither did he renounce that he was the Messiah.
Stoning was an Old Testament form of capital punishment. Stoning often resulted in death. Stoning was the punishment prescribed by the law for sins in the law. There is a definite difference between the condemnation of sin and the punishment of sin. Christ granted this woman both release from the condemnation and punishment for her sins. Christ and Christ alone have the authority to grant forgiveness from condemnation and punishment.
Are we therefore, to no longer condemn sin? God Forbid! Christians have been given the responsibility to condemn sin within the body of Christ. If we are not then, by whose authority were the qualifications for pastors and deacons given in the Scripture? Are they not a condemnation of sin within the body of Christ? Indeed, they do condemn sin and offer consequences to the level of service that one may participate in according to them. Sin has an earthly punishment within the Body that is manifest by the Body. Sin also has a heavenly punishment that is executed by Christ and Christ alone.
As to the casting of stones, I fail to see that anyone has been condemned and judged to be worthy of death. The condemnation of sin is not upon the same level as the sentence of death.
I just wanted to offer my two cents on a comment that was posted earlier. I think that GBC was headed for Warrenism, but they are swiftly sweeping any remenant of that disaster out the door. Most of the people that ascribe to that philosophy left when the church split.
This question is posed totally tongue-in-cheek (although some of you may take it -- and answer it -- seriously): Is it sin to eat blackeyed peas, cabbage and smoked sausage, and buttermilk cornbread on New Year's Day? I just thought of that while I was cooking ...
And no, I don't have enough for all of you, so don't ask me when it will be ready.
Survivingthechurch, I did not mean disrespect in my comment about GBC. However, I do have some first hand knowledge that there are still many issues there within the congregation. Also, frankly, I have not seen the motivation to study scripture from them that I have seen through the folks at BBC. However, again, these are issues the SBC has got to wake up to and address.
Of the members with concerns, I am aware of the following reactions:
- Some have now joined other churches
- Some are attending other churches but are still BBC members
- Some have stopped attending church altogether
- Some are attending SS at BBC but avoiding the worship services
- Some continue to attend BBC including the worship services
For those in that last category, I wish there was a way that all the concerned members could find each other and sit together - not necessarily down front and not for the purpose of disrupting the service - but just so they don't feel so isolated and ostracized during the "spontaneous" standing O's for SG. Does anyone have any suggestions for a good place to sit?
CJesus --
You just made me spit my peas on the screen! I don't believe in luck either. We were always taught to think on the poor and pray for them as we ate this particular meal every year, which I think is a gracious tradition and one for which I thank my wonderful grandparents. No, I definitely don't believe in luck -- but I DO believe in cabbage, cornbread, and peas! LOL
Blessings, mjm
Ju wrote:A very good and civil rebuttal. Thank you. Some of the things you call mistakes I call lack of integrity.
It is of interest that now one must specifically state wordings of acceptance. We all know that a reference to a mistake has the same meaning as sin. Of course all sin, mistakes, errors of the head (heart) and failures of possession of firm principles (integrity) are sins. Please forgive me for assuming that all readers would have the understanding that anything that is not honoring our God is sinful. And should we discuss equality of sin we would be here for a long time. The measurement that separates the degrees of sin is with the consequences that are reaped from the sinful act. All sin is wrong as it places something between us and God.
Ester and fedupatbbc write about truth. Would they acknowledge that they have posted suppositions as truth? I know of specific instances where each has blogged statements which are not truthful. Is this the way we honor our Savior. Ester, I say this with respect, but you are not in a position to know neither my heart nor my testimony. Please don’t disrespect me by assuming to know my position on grace.
And that my friends is what is wrong with this blogging. You attack the messengers who disagree with you or are willing to point out your errors. But you continue to relish is your acceptance of attacking God’s church. May God bless Bellevue Baptist Church in spite of our shortcomings. And yes, ju, I know that shortcomings are another name for sins.
I am reminded by a story a Church of Christ friend told me a number of years ago. There was a Baptist who encountered a room in heaven with locked doors but could hear people praising and rejoicing inside. He asked a fellow believer who had been there for some time for an explanation. The old timer responded, “it’s full of Church of Christ folks…..they just wouldn’t enjoy heaven as much knowing those of us outside the Church of Christ were here”.
I pray that you realize that there are many of us believers who can disagree on some issues but still have the love of Christ in our hearts. May that love be known to all. I hope that we can praise and rejoice in the same room one day.
wontclap4steve
Great idea. It may start out with just a few of us ( three or four),but as other like minded individuals see the that group in the back they may join in can you inagine SG as he watches the growth of the group every week.
Words do matter. How we term certain things is a reflection of how we view those things. If words were a trivial thing, then I would ask why would God have seen to it that the New Testament scriptures be penned in the most precise and exacting language known? The culture around us knows full well that words have important meaning and weight...the politically correct climate of that culture has with great care and deliberation sought to change the meaning of words and language in order to achieve it's insidious goals of dumbing down and tearing apart the very fabric of civilized and moral society. The alarming thing in that, is the fact that the very language of the church and it's undergirding...God's holy Word, has begun to take on the same cultural, politically correct changes. No where in scripture is sin called mistakes. The fact that sin puts something between us and God is a consequence....sin itself is a transgression against God himself, His Law, and His rule...first and foremost. It is rightly said that the world is watching BBC..especially the SBC..whether we like it or not, BBC is not only responsible for itself, but the influence it has on the rest of the denomination, and evangelicalism at large. We are in the midst of what in Charles Spurgeon's day was called "the downgrade"...the terminology being employed is one evidence of that. A less than Biblical view of sin, making an unbiblical dichotomy of the heart and mind, etc, puts us on that slippery slope of a downgrade, from which once on it, is extremely difficult to escape from. Serious matters to consider.
Justmyopinion,
Did you listen to the sermon I posted yesterday? Please listen to it then come back and give your thoughts again on where our church stands.
Just My Opinion said...
I pray that you realize that there are many of us believers who can disagree on some issues but still have the love of Christ in our hearts. May that love be known to all. I hope that we can praise and rejoice in the same room one day.
1:58 PM, January 01, 2007
JMO what you call a difference of opinion I call sactioning sin.Harboring a child rapist is a SIN and against the law , I call it a sin you call it a mistake.
A mistake is buying the wrong toothpaste,or adding 2+2=6.
What SG did was a sin. IF you have children and they were molested by PW in September, would you think that SG made a mistake in keeping him on staff, or would you be after both of them ,the molester and the enabler?
Yes we should all stand and have the love of Christ in our hearts, and to properly lead us, we should have a shepherd that is humble,honest in words and actions,trustworthy, and cares about the spiritial health of his sheep.A pastor with these qualities could and would bring us together like we were in the past under AR.Until we have a pastor with those qualities we will continue to be divided because under this pastor it suites his purposes.
WOUNDEDANDBLEEDING
What a touching story about your family.What you and your husband have done with your children is an example we could follow in our homes.Better yet can you imagine a big box (maybe the love offering box) set up this Sunday and beginning with the Pastor and followed by the rest of the leadership all listing and renouncing their sins and sincerely repenting.I believe that the rest of the church would follow and the healing could begin.
I hope that my rambling on the casting of stones has shed some light on this issue.
I grew up hearing preachers misuse this scripture just as many that post here have.
It is a shallow argument that discerning and condemning sin, is in any way related to stoning someone to death.
tim,
did you get my email from yesterday?
Wontclap4steve
Where are you going to be so the rest of us will know where to sit....We are always in the balcony at 9:30 service... I do see a lot of people that do not stand.....
The post about your family praying outside instead of going in made me think of something... I have heard many of you say that you go to sunday school but not to the worship service. What if after or before sunday school (when you would normally go to "big" church) you gathered with other like minded believers and prayer walked around the church. Obviously, not in a way that would bring attention to yourself, but... Just something to consider.
concernedsbcer said,
I know many of you are visiting GBC and are enjoying being under Dr. Mike Spradlin and Dr. Whitmire. I would caution you not to get too comfortable because GBC is dealing with a lot of Warrenism as well, and these wonderful men of God are only there in an interim capacity.
Survivingthechurch, I did not mean disrespect in my comment about GBC. However, I do have some first hand knowledge that there are still many issues there within the
congregation.
Reponse:
DID we have MAJOR problems at GBC? ABSOLUTELY!!!
HAS GOD solved a LARGE portion of our problems for us on his schedule and in his way?
ABSOLUTELY!!!
Did we go outside of GOD's plan and terminate any of the 22 staff members, that have resigned, out of the 35 that we had?
ABSOLUTELY NOT!!!
HAS GOD solved all of our problem?
ABSOLUTELY NOT!!!
Are we aware of our remaining problems?
ABSOLUTELY!!!
Is GOD solving those remaining problems on a daily basis?
ABSOLUTELY!!!
Are there still MANY issues within the congregation?
ABSOLUTELY NOT!!!
Is Warrenism a problem at GBC today?
ABSOLUTELY NOT!!!
Is GOD doing GREAT and WONDEROUS things at GBC?
ABSOLUTELY!!!!
As Dr. Rogers would say,"AMEN & AMEN">
tim said,
It is a shallow argument that discerning and condemning sin, is in any way related to stoning someone to death.
That's a great point. In fact, isn't it peculiar that when Jesus said, "let he who is without sin, cast the first stone," the people had actual STONES in their hands and were about to kill the woman caught in adultery. Hm... that IS different than discernment isn't it?
Tim said,
It is a shallow argument that discerning and condemning sin, is in any way related to stoning someone to death.
Great point. Tim
Made me think of this. If condemming sin is equal to stoning someone to death, then we must refrain from condeming sin.
HMMMMM Hope my kids don't catch on to this line of reasonig.
Tim, your post on casting stones was excellent and right on. I, too, get so sick of that being misused. The Pharisees knew exactly what He was referring to. That is exactly what is meant by reading scripture in context so we can understand truths.
In my opinion wrote,
"Ester and fedupatbbc write about truth. Would they acknowledge that they have posted suppositions as truth?"
The problem with this is that your leadership is not forthcoming. Oh, then how conveniently we can say everything is a supposition! How clever.
" I know of specific instances where each has blogged statements which are not truthful."
Then, please, enlighten us with FACTS. Not your opinions.
" Is this the way we honor our Savior."
Truth always honors God. What you have here are truth seekers. Not perfect but still seeking truth and not willing to sweep blatent sin by their leaders under the carpet.
" Ester, I say this with respect, but you are not in a position to know neither my heart nor my testimony. Please don’t disrespect me by assuming to know my position on grace."
That is a 'strawman' argument that is silly and emotional. It has nothing to do with anything. I was responding to what you wrote. And according to what you 'wrote' you do believe in cheap grace.
allofgrace has it right about the Word being very clear. WE, mere people' have downgraded the language of scripture. We have used it to mean what we want it to mean. If you read Matthew that ought to scare us all. Rev, too. We flippantly throw out casting stones as if we can never confront sin of anyone else unless we are perfect. Tim needs to do a teaching on that one, too. By your standard, sin can never be confronted and dealt with is someone says, I'm sorry. I know you will deny that, but that is basically what your post really meant.
"And that my friends is what is wrong with this blogging. You attack the messengers who disagree with you or are willing to point out your errors."
You have given your opinion here just like everyone else. So what you accuse us of, you are also guilty. Why blog? Because no one is getting facts from the leadership.
" But you continue to relish is your acceptance of attacking God’s church."
Do you mean the building? Or do you mean Christ's Bride, The Body of Believers which is not brick and morter. The Body may be smaller than you think. (See Matthew 7) Do you really think BBC is acting like Christ's Bride right now? If you do, Read 1 Corinithians very carefully. And Rev 2-5.
Your story was sweet but hardly matches the situation here. Yes, there will be people who have disagreed in heaven. People who believe in election, people who don't, etc., But, there will not be ANYONE there who knows the truth but still willfully sins and has not really repented. See Hebrews 10:26. (Also, do not dumb down what 'repentence' means in this situation for a minister)
That scares me. How about you?
The Parable of the Lifeguard.
Once there was a lifeguard at the beach, paid to watch over all the swimmers who came to enjoy what the Father of the Universe had created for them to enjoy.
One summer`s day, the lifeguard saw the hallmark fin of a great white shark surface out in the distance.
He blew his whistle immeditately.
He came down from his perch and ran to the beach to help everyone get out of the water.
He was honored for his work with a nice raise and he made a lot of new friends that day.
BUT
One summer, he got very lazy and started goofing off on his job.
He started flirting with the beach babes and his eyes no longer kept a careful watch over the work he was given and paid to do.
He had been given information that a shark was seen in the swimming area that morning and he was cautioned to be especially alert.
He was even given permission to put up the "Closed to the Public" sign if he felt it necessary but he just didn`t take it that seriously.
Then....
He heard a faint scream but considered it playful swimmers just having fun and ignored it.
And
He saw people leaving the beach, but considered they were just tired of swimming and ignored it.
He continued to allow his eyes to see what he wanted them to see and his ears to hear what he wanted them to hear until he saw a wide pool of blood rise up from the deep.
It was too late for him to be a Lifeguard.
A pastor is a lot like a lifeguard.
There is a shark in the waters at Bellevue Baptist Church.
The shark has a name.
His name is Pedophile Pete.
The blood has risen to the top of the water but the pastor at Bellevue still sits on his perch allowing the shark to swim among the sheep.
There is no lifeguard on duty at Bellevue.
Just My OPINION
You have accused me of posting an untruth. Would you please let me know just exactly what that untruth is?
I notice that you have no comment about PW STILL interviewing people who want to work with children. Again I ask you, Under what authority did PW have to make the determination as to who was 'qualified' to work with our children? Why did SG allow him to continue to make those decisions after knowing what he knew about him?
Again, please post the untruth that i posted. I am waiting.
Just my Opinion,
One other thing, just because you don't WANT to believe something, doesn't make it an untruth.
To maybejustmaybe:
It's more than wonderful that you have committed to reading through the Bible again. I enjoyed so much the scriptures you posted earlier today and your thoughts on those words from Him. This desire to read through the Bible this year seems to be contagious on this web log. Hallelujah!
A NEW THOUGHT!
Wouldn't it be beyond wonderful if everyone on this site would commit to reading through the Word of God this year? Whether it was their first time or tenth time would not matter. If we can't go to church at Bellevue, we can worship at home alone with the Holy Spirit of God. Let the whole world know that we are very serious about doing what honors the Lord. Let them know that we intend to do this so that we will KNOW what He has actually said to us. Let us not only be hearers of the Word but doers also. He will be the standard for our decisions and our direction. Hallelujah!
Let something truly good come out of this. There are some on this web log who have already committed to this for the new year. Get on board! Hallelujah!
Dee
Dee, Count me in. While I have read scriptures a lot, I've never actually read through it in a year. I'm with you guys.
Aren’t all of you tired of saying the same things over and over again? Go back and read previous blogs from last week or the week before. The same things have been said previously. Can’t better stuff be discussed rather than the same comments and rumors about Steve Gaines? Not much glorifying of the Lord in these comments. Plus it is getting kind of boring. How about an active discussion about Jesus; the King of Kings?
My wife and I have also committed to reading our Bibles through in a year (this year, to be specific). Our oldest child joined in our conversation, and she is on board, too! In fact, I just printed out 3 copies for us to use to help keep us on pace throughout the year. Thank you everybody for the splendid posts, scripture verses, and words of wisdom throughout the day.
nehemiah,
there are other blogs or websites for what you seek...nbbcof has made clear what this blog is for.
or..you could start one of your own..that's what I and others have done.
nehemiah said:
Can’t better stuff be discussed rather than the same comments and rumors about Steve Gaines? Not much glorifying of the Lord in these comments. Plus it is getting kind of boring.
***
Alright. So, can you be more specific as to the 'rumors' that we have posted about SG?
I'm sorry if THE TRUTH bores you. But then, that IS the problem, isn't it?
nehemiah,
Truth ALWAYS glorifies the Lord.
I received this years ago on a t-shirt while in the youth department at BBC. Fragments of it have been crossing my mind over the last few days, but I couldn’t remember the whole text. Today, I “stumbled” across a copy tucked in a book I haven’t read in many years. Isn’t God wonderful? I hope it inspires you like it has me. It is exactly what I needed to hear today. (I wish I knew who originally wrote it, so that I could give them credit.)
____________
RADICAL Christianity is a lifestyle, not a mindset.
RADICAL Christianity is concerned with conquering, not cajoling, with sacrifice, not superficiality, with victory, not verbiage, with penetration, not pandering.
RADICAL Christianity is in first gear, not neutral!
RADICAL Christianity is courageous, confrontive, caring, compelling, convincing, and contagious!
RADICAL Christianity moves mountains, crosses seas, pulls down walls, walks through closed doors. It suffers regularly, soars often, sweats daily, saturates everything and spreads everywhere.
RADICAL Christianity calls sin damnable, hell hot, hypocrisy evil, and judgment sure. It doesn’t back down, sit down, blow down, go down, slow down, turn down, or stay down!
RADICAL Christianity doesn’t depend on the strokes of others to keep it going; it doesn’t acquiesce in the face of loud opposition, it doesn’t fold under pressure, tarnish under time, die under duress, fade under technology, or rot under moisture.
RADICAL Christianity ALWAYS lifts up Christ, knocks down barriers, marches over objections, overwhelms pessimism, gobbles up cynicism and tramples under skepticism.
RADICAL Christianity gives lavishly, prays convulsively, claims abundantly, works feverishly, and preaches powerfully.
RADICAL Christianity dares to challenge the prevailing standard to make it God’s; it never plays to the crowds, nor waters down its position, nor adjusts its principles, but rather it is a thermostat that controls its surrounding, never a thermometer to adjust to them.
RADICAL Christianity is never popular, convenient, stylish or wealthy. You’ll never need to stand in line to enter its domain. But, when the fighting’s done, the battle over, and the dust has settled, it will be its adherents of whom the coming of Christ will say, “Well done!”
Be Still and Know
I loved what you posted about the tshirt. What makes me sad, tho, is that now, when we adhere to those basic tenants of our faith, we are called ' troublemakers'
If we are not willing to ' compromise' to go along to get along, we are called dissenters.
When we call sin, sin, we are called ' adversaries'
When we stand up for TRUTH, we are called 'the opposition'
When we want a transparent meeting between the congregation and leadership, we are called ' hezbollah'
Where are the people at BBC that wrote those TRuths on that tshirt?Sadly, those words on that tshirt was written in the days when God's people recognized sin.
I'm depressed.
tim wrote: “I hope that my rambling on the casting of stones has shed some light on this issue.
I grew up hearing preachers misuse this scripture just as many that post here have.
It is a shallow argument that discerning and condemning sin, is in any way related to stoning someone to death. “
Tim, thanks for taking time to point out that your study of the stone issue is beyond the understanding of many pastors which you have been under. I guess I fall into that group as well If I understood your point, and correct me if I am miss-representing your conclusion, your understanding is this was an example of Christ offering the woman forgiveness from her condemnation and punishment.
I assume you would agree that the law of the Old Testament provided both the condemnation and the execution for punishment. Now as you mentioned Jesus faced a critical time in His ministry. If He said “stone her” He would have contradicted the whole thrust of His teaching. Up to this time the God of Israel had been generally regarded as the God or armies, the God of thunder and lightning, the God of strict justice, and Israel’s Lawgiver. But Jesus was transforming people out of their habitual hang-ups. He was preaching the God of infinite compassion and concern for every living thing. This was revolutionary thinking during these times. If He said “don’t stone her” He would be contradicting the law. They continue to urge Him for an answer to this situation.
Jesus responded with the famous quote “let them without sin cast the first stone”. Jesus didn’t challenge the law, nor as you stated grant her forgiveness at this point. After all had left, then Jesus showed her not only respect but compassion. Jesus was showing us an example of what would later be his commandment to us “love one another as Christ has loved you”. She didn’t see Jesus as a religious figure in that she addressed Him as “sir” and not as the Messiah or rabbi.
Yes Tim we are called to condemn sin but only God can condemn man. Jesus provided us with a great example of forgiveness and acceptance with the story of the prodigal son. But you may recall that the older brother turned out to be the bigger sinner. After the father had shown mercy and forgiveness to his prodigal son, it was the older brother, who had previously behaved in a respectful and dutiful way, which became too self-righteous. May our hearts be like the father’s heart toward forgiveness rather than one of the self-righteous older son.
What we can learn from these parables are that Jesus and the prodigal son’s father offered love and compassion. The group casting the stones and the older brother were full of self-righteousness and sinners as much as those they were opposing. Jesus caused the mob to do some self evaluation and enter into their own consciences and to see what was wrong with them. Jesus only asks us to look at our own motive before casting the stone. My original post today was with these thoughts in mind.
sin=mistake
sin=hangups
atonement=forgiveness for mistakes and hangups.
keeping one another accountable=condemnation.
what is this language?
Just My Opinion
You have accused me of posting untruths. I note that you have not yet posted my untruths on this board.
I'm waiting.
Nehemiah
Please read the mission statement for this blog.
Then remember that we constantly have new bloggers visiting and they usually have not read the old threads so if they bring up these issues we try to be patient and answer questions or inform as necessary.
Also, I think what you call rumors are people asking questions so those out there with the answers can respond. Remember, this is the only source for information to the membership.
Fed up-
Ironically enough, some of the same people (leadership) who were in the youth department when I was a student are still there. Now they defend vehemently the new music, etc. I think God has reminded me of these words to help me to see a measure of how far we have drifted since the “good ol’ days.” People have changed and Bellevue has certainly changed. (Like a Rick Warren paradigm-shift?) I know we can’t go back, but I can’t help but see that we sure aren’t going forward! I, for one, am one radical that will wear the badge of “opposition, adversary, trouble-making dissenter” proudly; I will not compromise.
I am depressed right along side you, my friend.
fedup, bestillandknow,
I'm listening to a sermon right now about God's covenant faithfulness..we have to cry out to the One who remembers His covenant. He is faithful.
Be Still and Know,
When my daughter ( age 21) was in the youth group ( high school) she grew in The Lord tremendously. She had wonderful, Godly teachers.
Now my son is in the youth group and he gets almost none of what she got. It's so weak now, I fear that all he goes for is the loud music,and IF they are relaying a saving message in the music, its so loud and distorted, who would know it? It's just not the same anymore.
The verse on that T-shirt sounds an awful lot like an "Adrianism," doesn't it?
God is still on His Throne and is still in control....His people just have to seek Him. You are seeking Truth; He will show it to you.
just my opinion said:
I have seen any proof that Mrs. Rogers asked Bro. Steve to make clarification prior to the announcement. It is my understanding that she was not notified in advance.
just my opinion, what do you mean you haven't see any proof of this? I heard Mrs. Rogers state this on the radio. She said that she asked that the church state specifically that Dr. Rogers knew nothing of this , but they did not do it, even though Paul Williams himself told her Pastor Rogers knew nothing of the incident.
Also, the statement that Dr. Rogers knew nothing of this episode was originally in the statement issued by the church, but Steve Gaines removed it. I believe it was Bryan Miller who put the disclaimer of Dr. Roger's knowledge of this matter in the statement, but it was removed before Gaines read the statement to the church.
be-still-and-know, fedup
Hey, don't you guys be depressed! I know I've had my bad days, too, but this t-shirt slogan has me fired up!
Radical Christianity is for me! None of this mealy mouthed, get along with everybody, don't make waves, no convictions, kind of religion for chameleons!
Isn't this what the "fellowship of His suffering" is all about?
This is how we know what we believe: it's what we are willing to stand for.
Romas 13:12
"The night is far spent, the day is at hand:let us therefore, cast off the works of darkness and let us put on the armour of light."
PRESS ON TRUTH WARRIORS!!!
Just My Opinion
Hello.
Still waiting for you to show me the posts that were " untrue" aka, ' lies'
You don't get to call someone a liar and then not say what they lied about. That's kinda weak, don't you think?
Tapping fingers, waiting for your response, and noting that you have not yet responded to my request to allow me to defend myself from your accusation.
Hallelujah!
I am so excited to see so many of us who are willing to commit to reading through the Bible. Before you begin you must know that this can be hard to do in exactly a year, so don't get discouraged if you fall behind or even if you do not finish in a year. The first time I successfully made it through the whole Bible it took me 22 months. I cannot express how wonderful and victorious it was to complete it, though! So many times I had started out trying to read through the Bible and would get so bored with Numbers or Deuteronomy. (Sorry, but God forgives me since He knows my heart and knows that reading is not a hobby or even something I particularly like even though I have full comprehension and fairly good eyesight). The way I did it was by putting a little, tiny dot at the end of each chapter as I finished it. God told me to do it this way. Yes. He sure did. He knew that was all I needed to help me make it through. See, the devil had always made me start over by telling me that it had been so long since I read that first five books of the Bible that I surely wouldn't remember any of that. Well, don't fall for that either. Also, for those of you who have less than perfect vision, it is much easier to view the Bible on the computer screen and seems to move along faster to me. I think that is because you will not be underlining on a screen. However, it can become slower if you also underline in your Bible when you find something that grabs you. For those of you who have already read through the Bible, you don't need my advise so just ignore everything I've said and keep on doing like you're doing already. Maybe you have some suggestions. One more thing, I have read through it straight and I have followed the "Through the Bible in a Year" folder which gets you to read in chronological order. I prefer just reading it straight through where I can use my "dot" system. If you lose your folder with the boxes you check off, you won't necessarily know what to do next.
The Word is ALIVE! You will know what I mean by the time you finish. If you read from the OT into the NT, you will feel the light of Jesus lifting the heaviness of sin off you by the time you get very far into the New Testament. Wait and see! It is really something else and I'm not kidding. You will be sealed to Him in a way I cannot describe. Just do it. Don't let me slow you down. Just GO! Hallelujah!
Happy New Year!!!!!!!!
Dee
Nass and others,
There is a link somewhere with Mrs. Rogers audio where she states, PLAINLY that she called the church and requested that they clear her husband's name and they refused. Can anyone find that link? Let's try to find it and post it on here. Apparently, there are those who don't believe it.
Don't forget to call the church office tomorrow and ask if Bellevue is still supporting MABTS.
If Dr. Gaines was being truthful the Wednesday before Christmas, we still will be funding the seminary.
If you can't get an answer, call the seminary....
Just My Opinion said...
...Now as you mentioned Jesus faced a critical time in His ministry. If He said “stone her” He would have contradicted the whole thrust of His teaching. Up to this time the God of Israel had been generally regarded as the God or armies, the God of thunder and lightning, the God of strict justice, and Israel’s Lawgiver. But Jesus was transforming people out of their habitual hang-ups. He was preaching the God of infinite compassion and concern for every living thing.
Reply:
The reason that Jesus could not say "stone her" was not because it would contradict the thrust of his teachings. The Jesus of the New Testament is the same Jesus of the Old Testament. There was no contradcitions between his teachings and the law. Believe it or not the Jesus of the Old Testament was of infinite compassion and concern for every living thing.
The reason that Jesus could not say "stone her" was because it would have provided the Pharisees with that which they sought, the ability to proclaim that he was not the Messiah as was being broadcast among the people. If he had said "stone her" then they would have said, "He is not the Messiah, because the Messiah will fulfill the law of Moses, but this man is subject to the law of Moses. He is no different than any man that has ever been under the law." When the Pharisees left they knew that they had witnessed a man that was not subject to the law and some knew that this was indeed the Messiah. I often wonder if the Apostle Paul were present in that group.
ed_t wrotejust my opinion, what do you mean you haven't see any proof of this? I heard Mrs. Rogers state this on the radio. She said that she asked that the church state specifically that Dr. Rogers knew nothing of this , but they did not do it, even though Paul Williams himself told her Pastor Rogers knew nothing of the incident.
I wish that you dealt with facts. The radio broadcast is online and can be heard by everyone. Mrs. Rogers did not make that staement concerning asking Bellevue to release a staement on Dr. Rogers behalf while on-air. You are not posting full truthful information. Contact Brian Miller for an accounting of the other staement you made. You like many are dealing with hearsay and not facts. If anyone doubts me then listen to the audio itself. It is online at the WREC radio website.
Here is the link to Mrs. Rogers statement on Mike Fleming's show.
Mrs. Rogers
FedUp - I'm thinking that if you go and read your posts, you can find your own mistakes...and not have someone else point them out for you. Your begging JMO to bring to light your untruths is annoying. Childish really.
JMO - I like what you had to say - and your rebuttals are extremely well put. I wish I had the patience to put it so gently. However, I have found that if you post your opinion on this blog...and it goes against how others on here feel...you are immediatly written off as someone who's opinion doesn't matter.
I too, am praying for our church - and know that regardless of the outcome - God is in control.
Memphis --- I cannot email you, because your email is not on your profile...or rather it is - and I do not have a password set up for microsoft passport.
JMO,
How clever you are to say that she asked them to release a statement. No she didn't ask them that. "I even asked would they say that it was not my husband and they would not". What part of that is incorrect about what we've said from day one on this issue?
bellevuefriend61
I do not have any mistakes in my postings. I stand by what i said.
Just My Opinon has called me a liar and then refuses to say what i lied about.
Hmm, maybe JMO was on the Communications Committee?
bellevuefriend61
Intersting how you and JMO run when light is shed on the truth. You start calling others liars and then go and hide.
Why does the truth bother you?
Fedup - I hope you are right - in that you haven't published any half truths or speculations. If not, then when it all comes to light, won't you feel silly? I think everyone on this website should be able to give their opinion freely -- as long as it is an opinion based on a true proven fact!
About the birthday party -- I see nothing wrong at all with him reimbursing the church. I mean -- he did it without being reminded to do it, right? What's the big deal?
Every little thing he does...you all have something negative to put out there. I bet the man couldn't pick his nose without someone thinking it was something awful!!!
#1 - I have called no one a liar. #2 - I haven't run anywhere. I have a family and things to do to run my household. I don't have all hours to spend on this blog.
#3 - what truth did you supposedly shed light on?
BellevueFriend61 said:
About the birthday party -- I see nothing wrong at all with him reimbursing the church. I mean -- he did it without being reminded to do it, right? What's the big deal?
****
Bellevuefriend61:
You should take it up with the IRS> You see..there are laws, and when churches VIOLATE those laws, we could lose our 501C status. That's the non profit status. That exempts us from paying taxes. So when funds are CO-MINGLED, that's against the law. Don't jump on me..i didn't write the law, and i didn't break the law..SG did.
bellevuefriend61,
The reason that there is a problem with the birthday party reimbursement is because it is a co-mingling of funds and is against the law. The IRS tends to frown on law breakers. They have become quite a bit more forgiving in recent years, but if this were to prove to be a habitual problem they would be far less forgiving.
There have been others that are members of the country club that post here that state that they have never had any problem using their personal credit card.
I doubt it is unlawful if the charges are repaid to the church, but I'll be sure to do some checking. I can see if the funds were not reimbursed it being illegal.
Tim - Well I didn't know that. However, it still doesn't matter to me. He repaid the debt. Isn't that what matters?
BF61,
It's against IRS "rules". I doubt seriously that they would even bother raising an eyebrow over a one time offense. I'm totally willing to cede this issue being that for whatever reason BBC has allowed their senior pastor to have a country club membership for who knows how many years paid for by the church. Totally understandable how he could have not known how to pay for things the first time he went.
Ju - from what I understand, the country club membership is allowable because he is able to take guests and speakers and other pastors there.
BF61 said,
About the birthday party -- I see nothing wrong at all with him reimbursing the church. I mean -- he did it without being reminded to do it, right? What's the big deal?
*****
LOLOL, if only life were THAT simple.
BF61 to the IRS:
" I mean -- he did it without being reminded to do it, right? What's the big deal? "
***
BF, we are a country of laws. You don't get to decide which laws you will follow and which laws you do not follow.
This pastor does not think that the laws apply to him, and THAT, my friend, is the problem.
Ju - you seem to be more willing to discuss and explain things than others on the blog. I appreciate that.
Fedup - do you ever speed? Ever drink a drink at the store before you pay for it? Do you ever have bad thoughts?
bellevuefriend61,
These law were enacted in the late 60's I believe. The reason that it was done so. Was because people were abusing their reimbursements. This is what would happen, I would buy a refrigerator and have the church pay for it. Then I could write a check to the church. On my records I could show a check written to a non-profit organization and claim it as a tax deduction. In reality I had bought a refrigerator. The IRS became very frustrated trying to track these reimbursed items, so the law was inacted to prohibit the co-mingling of funds. There is also an issue of sales tax that can be avoided by doing direct billing thru a non-profit.
BF61,
I have a problem with the country club membership all together. How is it that you can be a humble man of God while attending an elitist club of wealthy people? Is there anything wrong with you wanting your Pastor to take those visiting preachers and guest to the fellowship hall and have a potluck or maybe to their own houses for a private humble get together? Think really hard about what doing that type of stuff says about the people doing it.
Fedup - I am no longer going to respod to the things you post -- simply because your tone is so condescending. I hate being talked down to. So, please don't bother to respond to what I post...unless...of course...it's to prove your point to others.
ju,
The problem with it being understandable is that Steve Gaines has been in the ministry for over 20 years. This issue was not brought up several days before the incident. It is something that he would have or at least should have been well aware of.
Ju - I can see your point. I don't necessarily agree that the pastor should have a church funded membership to a country club. However, many leaders of many businesses have the same quirks.
I am sure the pastor does have get togethers at his home. I have no doubt about it.
BF61,
I cirtainly hope he does. We can all agree to disagree as adults :). Some folks are a great deal more passionate about what's going on due to their testimony which I would suggest you review if you haven't as far as FedUp is concerned. It will help you understand where she is coming from.
FedUp maybe you can post it again.
bellevuefriend61 said:
Fedup - do you ever speed? Ever drink a drink at the store before you pay for it? Do you ever have bad thoughts
****
So here we go again...becuase WE sin, we should not hold our pastor accountable for HIS sin.
Im sorry, BF61, but your arguments just don't hold any water, and I MUST respond to them. IT's not difficult, really.
JMO,
I have no idea what your listening to my friend. Click on the link provided and listen. My quote was exact.
Just My Opinion,
Immediately below your 7:09 post is a link to hear the statement that was made by Mrs. Rogers. If you have not listened to it then I would ask you to do so.
In all honesty, I must say that there was another statement that was issued that was broadcast on one of the television stations and it did have different dialogue in it. In the first one Mrs. Rogers did not state that she had asked the administration to clarify their statement.
I did not hear this statement until sometime later but saw the reports on the blog to that effect and it made my blood boil. It took probably a day or two for me to run down a copy so that I could hear it with my own ears.
I believe that what you had heard was the first one and did not know about the second one. It is hard for me to hold you responsible for something that you had not heard.
The financial issues which would include credit cards, direct billing to BBC, the donation to FMUC, money sent to New Orleans Baptist Theological Seminary, the threat to withdraw monies from MABTS, the possibility of a video set built at BBC's expense for a video series to be made by Donna Gaines, which proceeds would go to that organization, ripping up of brand new carpet and replaced with carpet softer on the pastor's feet, etc..all points to a fundamental problem..there seems to be a flippancy about how BBC's resources are spent...which would indicate there needs to be a major overhaul of financial oversight. I don't think it takes a rocket scientist to figure that out.
BF61 said:
However, many leaders of many businesses have the same quirks.
****
WE are not a business, WE are a church!! BIG BIG difference.
You mean, PERKS?
Wow I wish I could delete my comments like someone just did. JMO did you do that or did NBBCOF do that?
Tim,
So there was another statement put out by Mrs Rogers where she says she didn't ask for them to clarify? Do you have a link to that or can you post the transcript? Thanks.
Tim,
JMO Said:
I wish that you dealt with facts. The radio broadcast is online and can be heard by everyone.
They knew exactly what we were talking about. No reason to not hold them accountable for at the least attempting to mislead the viewers of this blog.
tim,
I sent another email today...did you get it?
NO wonder he INSISTED on being the camp pastor!
Fedup - sorry can't resist. What you just posted was ugly and a speculation. You have NO idea who paid for Bro. Steve to go on the camp trip. That is the kind of thing this blog is NOT built for. How sad. I understand that you have a great testimony -- but I think you kill it when you make jabs like that. And yes-- I meant PERKS, sorry for using the wrong word. Again - you don't have to be so condescending.
ju,
The one that was on television did not have the part about requesting the current leaderships clarification that Dr. Rogers and Bob Sorrell were not aware. It only had the statement that she had personally spoken with Paul Williams and he had told her that they did not know. The two were almost identical except the second one she elaborated upon the fact that she had asked for that clarification from the church leadership.
allofgrace,
got both mails..sorry slow to respond...I'm trying to do several things at once.
bellevue61
"no wonder he insisted on being camp pastor" was said with tongue in cheek.. I have no idea who paid for what.
But i do hope that since he is under such scrutiny, that he would have the good sense to do what is right, and not charge any of his familiy's rooms to the church.
Otherwise, this will be the topic next week.
tim,
no problem, I've just had some problems with my email getting to it's destination...just checking to make sure.
Hang in there, JMO. I appreciate your patience and your eloquence, and the Christ-like attitude with which you've made your posts today.
By the way, I listened to the Mike Fleming link. Did anyone else notice that Mrs. Rogers used the term "moral failures" herself, and not as though she was quoting it sarcastically, but as though it was her own reference. I know she's not one to back off from calling sin what it is. Just lends a little validity to the idea that a lot of this could be hair-splitting semantics.
Also, I had the supposed quote of her statement in front of me as I listened to the audio. It was not 100% verbatim. Here is the total transcript of the audio clip from Fleming's show:
Mike F: I would like to introduce to you now Mrs. Adrian Rogers. Mrs. Rogers, thank you so much for gracing our program and your willingness to come on the program. I am delighted and honored.
Mrs. Rogers: Well, thank you, Mike. Uh, I, it is not the thing that I would normally do. In fact, it would be the last thing that I would ever do, is to come on a public talk show or be on the media. But when my husband's integrity is questioned, I will stand.
Mike F: Yes, ma'am.
Mrs. Rogers: And I would like to make this statement, first of all, that it was Paul Williams himself, when I called to express love and so forth to him, that told me, I asked him did my husband know, and he said no.
Mike F: Yes, ma'am.
Mrs. Rogers: And also Mr. Bob Sorrell, who was associate pastor with my husband at that time, well not at that time perhaps, but he also did not know.
Mike F: Mmm-hmm.
Mrs. Rogers: And I would like to stand for his integrity. And it was even said that it was someone who had, was retired at the time, and people did not listen carefully. And I even asked would they say that it was not my husband and Mr. Sorrell, and they did not do that. And so only for that reason will I come on to say, behalf of my husband's integrity … and in times past this has happened only several times in our ministry … nothing, nothing like this, but other moral failures, he always dealt with it immediately and Biblically. There is a Biblical standard, and we do, we do believe in love and forgiveness and grace, but not to maintain those people in leadership. Thank you so much.
Mike F: Uh, Mrs. Rogers, may I ask you your opinion of what has happened to the church in these intervening months?
Mrs. Rogers: I -- I really don't care to --
Mike F: I understand.
Mrs. Rogers: -- speak to any other issues.
Mike F: I understand, and I appreciate you calling, and --
Mrs. Rogers: Thank you so much --
Mike F: God bless you.
Mrs. Rogers: -- for having this forum.
Just for the record:
Still waiting for JMO to be specific about what I lied about.
mjm,
semantics aren't the issue here..whether you want to term it moral failure or incest, child molestation, or sodomy...the fact remains that this was known for 6 mos. before anything was done about it. Fact 2 is that Paul Williams must be removed permanently from his ministerial position...period.
mjm,
thanks for taking the time to type the transcript.
AOG, no need to pick a fight and repeat yourself. I didn't say it wasn't a sin. Correct me if I'm wrong, but hasn't MUCH been made of Bro. Steve using the term "moral failure?" Yet, Mrs. Rogers uses the same term, in virtually the same context, and no one has said a word.
And the semantics argument is not THE issue, nor is sodomy, but they are just two of many. All I was doing was attempting to suggest -- and without being the least bit argumentative, I might add -- that perhaps we're operating once again under a double standard. That's all. Take off the gloves, my brother.
Isn't the point here that Mrs. Rogers asked the SG adm. to say that it was not her husband and mr. sorrell, and they would not do that?
Isn't that what started this entire argument?
Take a look at these two excerpts:
From the radio broadcast,
Mrs. Rogers:....There is a Biblical standard, and we do, we do believe in love and forgiveness and grace, but not to maintain those people in leadership. Thank you so much.
From the Bellevue Web Site,
Steve Gaines:....I am saddened and dismayed to see this minister’s family and our own church family experience this heartbreaking situation. God wants us to respond in grace and love. Jesus forgave others and we can, too.
Does there seem to be a glaring difference to anyone other than me?
mjm,
Not picking a fight...just keeping the issues in the forefront..and I don't repeat myself anymore than anyone else here..on either side of this...don't be so senstive :)
CJesus -- I can see your point. But the way it sounded (to me) was, "nothing like this (meaning PW's sin of incest), but other moral failures" -- it just sounded like she was linking them all as moral failures.
Any English majors out there?
Like I said, I know Joyce Rogers does not shy away from calling a sin a sin. Never said she did. I just simply think there may be a great amount of wisdom in tailoring your verbiage to the ears of your audience at times. I think that's what she did (as many who listen to Mike's program probably are not saved, and this IS a church matter, or at least it was) and I also think that Bro. Steve did the same thing, because of the sensitivity of the issue and dealing with it before the whole church body, including children who were present.
Here's the statement that started the argument:
JMO said:
I have seen any proof that Mrs. Rogers asked Bro. Steve to make clarification prior to the announcement. It is my understanding that she was not notified in advance.
***
What difference does it make WHEN mrs. rogers asked him to clarify the statement? The fact of the matter is that she DID, in fact, ask him to clarify the statement, and she was told that they were not going to do that.
My guess is that after the statement was read in church, and it was "insenuated" that a " retired pastor that is deceased" knew about it, she then contacted the office of the pastor and requested that it be clarified and they told her that they had said all they were going to say about it.
So, it appears that Mrs. Rogers WAS, IN FACT, disrespected, and that our dear Dr. Rogers was also disrespcted.
I have a theory as to why they would not honor her request to clarify that Dr. R. was not involved and it is this:
It gives political cover to SG.
He wanted to conveniently leave it in our minds that someone else knew other than him...
Now think about tht just a second...What he was realy saying to us was this:
" I am not the only one that betrayed ya'll...You all have been betrayed for 17 years."
Now why would a pastor want to inflict a " crisis of faith" on his sheep? Especially when it wasn't even true?
Is not the purpose of this blog stated on the front page to "confront sin that affects us congregationally?" Would anyone agree that applying double standards is a congregational sin? At best, it's less than honest.
Not trying to derail the blog or mess up anyone's argument, but I believe with all my heart that some of the polarization we see here is due to knee-jerking and misapplication of standards.
fedupatbbc said,
I have a theory as to why they would not honor her request to clarify that Dr. R. was not involved and it is this:
It gives political cover to SG.
He wanted to conveniently leave it in our minds that someone else knew other than him...
Reply:
Also, once that doubt has been placed out there it will never be 100% recovered. Most politicians that have the platform use it and this a prime example of politics at its worst.
Fedup, please take a break. With respect, who else is arguing on here today but you?
Maybejustmaybe,
I'm an English major, and "moral failures" sounds like an umbrella term and less specific than speaking of a specific, immoral behavior. I haven't heard the audio (I have read the blog account), so I'll have to listen to that. However, when the actual immoral behavior was addressed from the pulpit, I believe SG should have called it sin or immmoral behavior.
mjm,
Excuse me?
mjm,
I believe that the use of the same two words "moral failure" when taken from two different statements, would hardly be grounds for a double standard. The words would have to be taken in context of the entire body of the statement and the final sentences of each of their statements are where the confrontation centers.
Thanks for the comment, msdreamwise! Nicely said! I'll be interested in whether your opinion changes after you listen to the audio. It may not, and that's fine ... but I'd definitely be interested.
mjm
Did i miss something in the rule book about how many times a person is allowed to post in a day?
I'll wait for you to clear that up for me.
Fedup, I think it could be statements from you like this that give people trouble:
Now think about tht just a second...What he was realy saying to us was this:
" I am not the only one that betrayed ya'll...You all have been betrayed for 17 years."
This is your interpretation of what Bro. Steve said, but you present it as truth, which it is not. It has no substantive basis in truth -- it is supposition on your part. That is how rumors get started, is it not?
My opinion only, though. Not trying to speak for anyone else.
mjm,
One statement ends with grace, love and terminated from ministry.
The other ends with grace, love, and pass the biscuits.
mjm
Sooo, you are allowed to have an opinion, but when i post mine, you call it an untruth.
That's fair.
Ok.
Thanks.
'Night all. Taking my own advice, taking a break and going to bed. I'll catch up in the morning.
Love, peace, and a good night's rest to all. Let's meet in the Word in the morning, shall we?
oh, and just for the record,
that is MY interpretation of what he was saying.
tim,
LOL..."pass the biscuits"
Ladies and Gentlemen,
We can agree that it is a fact that Mrs Rogers asked that BBC make it clear to the congregation that it wasn't her husband they were talking about can we not? Can we agree that staff at the church should by now know of this request? If the answer is yes then will someone please present a transcript of the statement that has subsequently been released by BBC to clear up this confusion? I'm not aware of one. My point to all is that this is again evidence of poor decision making on someone's part is it not? Yes they may have made a "mistake" not clearing Dr Rogers' name at the time. Why haven't they since corrected their "mistake"?
ju,
Once that doubt has been placed out there it will never be 100% recovered. Most politicians that have the platform use it and this a prime example of politics at its worst.
They should correct it however. They should take out a full page ad in the Commercial Appeal to correct it. The should take out a full page ad in every magazine and newspaper in Memphis. They should make the fellow that made this mistake pay for it all. But don't hold your breath.
Tim,
I agree.
The direct billing discussion should not be centering around the Colonial Country Club birthday party for Steve's daughter.
The direct billing offense is really the birthday party Steve Gaines had direct billed for Donna's party at the Marriot. Donna and her friend spent the night at the Marriot and the party and night's stay were direct billed to Bellevue Baptist Church. I know Marriot takes a personal credit card as well as everyone on this blog knows.
The leaders of Bellevue act like they can spend the Lord's money anytime, anywhere, anyway, without limits, and without the knowledge of the church.
Only when they are exposed, do they make it known what they've done.
Why not have Steve Gaines and any other minister personally pay for meals, etc. they feel are church business. Then they should present an expense report for reimbursement instead of having all of these charges direct billed to Bellevue Baptist Chruch. This way, they wouldn't have to write a check to Belleuve Baptist Church.
When any minister writes a reimbursement check to Bellevue, the possibility of counting that check on taxes as a contribution exists.
ju said:
Why haven't they since corrected their "mistake"?
*****
Because it gives SG political cover for folks to think that Dr. Rogers did the same thing he did. Even if it is not true.
Is it possible that billing it to BBC resulted in a lower rate? Our church from time to time uses the local Marriot to house speakers and we get a reduced rate.
fedupatbbc said:
"Because it gives SG political cover for folks to think that Dr. Rogers did the same thing he did. Even if it is not true".
In light of SG's failure to do what was right...make it crystal clear that Dr. Rogers did not know anything about the PW issue...it sure makes all those times he said that Dr. Rogers was his 'hero' and his 'mentor' have a really phony, fake ring to it, doesn't it?
The allegation that some lawyer wrote his statement means nothing, zero! Any true friend, the Biblical kind, would have defended his friend, especially one he was "supposed" to have loved so much. And Mrs. Joyce should not have had to even ask that it be done. It's all about character and integrity!
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