National radio talk show host, Michael Reagan, had a segment about Bellevue about 11 or 12 minutes into the third hour of his broadcast on December 18th. The relevant excerpt from that show can also be heard here in the December 18th entry.
Thanks to westtnbarrister for capturing this audio.
The Commercial Appeal ran this article on December 19th. (Scroll down on that page.)
Channel 5 News in Memphis ran this story on the 5:00 p.m. newscast on December 18th. A comments section is included.
Channel 3 News in Memphis ran a similar story at 6:00 p.m. on December 18th.
Both Channel 5's and Channel 3's stories featured interviews with Bellevue member Tim Coggins.
FOX Channel 13 in Memphis ran an interview with Jim Haywood regarding this same story December 18th at 9:00 p.m. and December 19th at 8:00 a.m.
Let's clear up something right now! A few people have implied that Dr. Rogers and/or Bob Sorrell may have known about this situation. This is a quote from FOX13's story:
"The wife of former Head Pastor Adrian Rogers called FOX13 about the situation.
"She wanted to make it clear that her husband had not been aware of these allegations. She said Williams himself told her that Pastor Rogers didn't know.
"Retired Associate Pastor Bob Sorrell also called FOX13 to say he wasn't aware either."
Some of these stations may rerun their segments during the day today (December 19th), and the story has been streaming in the news ticker along the bottom of the screen on FOX13.
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294 comments:
«Oldest ‹Older 201 – 294 of 294"...then he decides he better start investigating…after a confession???"
An investigation is not needed to determine his fitness to serve on staff. That question was answered the moment he admitted he was a child molester to the leadership.
I assume the investigation is about uncovering potential liability. They want information about what PW may have done so they can assess liability and persuade those with litigious intent to avoid speaking with an attorney. They better not try to keep anyone from talking to the authorities or they will eventually find themselves watching Bellevue from behind bars.
Another handy feature of an investigation is they tend to buy time. They probably hope they can ride out the storm and that everyone will eventually forget about it.
ECS parents, wake up! President Miller is involved in this in a big way.
I hope someone keeps a close watch on proceedings so we, the members, don't end up paying for staff members'legal fees, which they are certain to acquire in the near future.
According to the Commercial Appeal article we are already paying outside legal counsel.
Bryan Miller, chairman of Bellevue's personnel committee, said Monday the church engaged independent legal counsel.
I suspect this is going to get much worse folks. When a church "lawyers up" by bringing in outside legal counsel you have to wonder if BBC has some big time liability.
poor-in-spirit said...
First Time Blogger-
There are many of us who are just now starting to get it...When the leadership of our church describes sodomy, rape and incest by one of it's ministers as a past moral failure then maybe it is time for a change in leadership. Once trust is removed from leadership, mistrust follows. Make no mistake about it God is at work here. He is removing the wolves from the sheep. What can we do? PRAY, PRAY, and then PRAY. I was awakened last night in the middle of the night to pray like I haven't prayed in years. The tears just flowed, for myself, PW and family, SG, and the whole flock at BBC. I believe the winds of change are taking place but it has to be by the Spirit of the living God. That is the only way things are going to be truly changed for the better. Proverbs 28: says the wicked flee when no man pursueth but the righteous are as bold as lions. Let us all pray for some of that godly boldness to stand for what God's Word says is right...
12:12 PM, December 19, 2006
-------
Amen, Amen
Andrew
In a court of Law, at least nowadays, a confession is not always good enough unfortunately. An investigation, either by the church or law enforcement will take some time. Even if or when charges are brought up on PW, it may take a few weeks for this to happen.
I agree it would make it easier if PW would just go ahead and resign, but if he doesn't, I am sure the church as the liability of conducting it's own "investigation" before they can terminate him as well.
Memphis,
I am not knocking an investigation by the church completely. They ought to know what they are dealing with. My problem with it is the timing. It should have begun in June.
As far as his employment, there is no need to investigate anything to fire him or anyone else. Tennessee is an employment at will state. That means an employee-at-will may be discharged for good cause, bad cause, or no cause at all. Either the employer or the employee may terminate the relationship at will. Generally speaking, absent discrimination or wrongful discharge an employee has no legal recourse if terminated by their employer. Of course there are exceptions, but that is how our basic law works.
SeekingGod'sGlory said,
I am more bothered by the person/persons that keeps putting all this on the website. The problem should have been handled within the Church.
I doubt there is a person here who would disagree with your second statement above. We would have strongly preferred that ALL of these issues, from day one, would have been handled within the church. If you cannot see what is plainly before you — the fact that THEY HAVE NOT BEEN HANDLED WITHIN THE CHURCH, and this because THE ADMINISTRATION REFUSES TO DO SO — then I am not sure anything any of us says is going to help.
Gaines was told of the PW situation in JUNE. SIX MONTHS AGO. Others on staff and in leadership at the church were told WEEKS AGO, if not before. Was it handled? No. Paul Williams remained on staff until THIS BLOG, and those who are willing to stand up and confront an extraordinary lack of integrity in our leadership, made it an issue which finally had to be handled. And as a result of it being mishandled by the administration from the start, it's now the talk of the nation.
Hear me, and please hear me clearly: If ALL of these issues, from day one, had been handled appropriately, according to Scripture, this blog WOULD NOT EXIST, for it would not need to.
This blog, with all of its shortcomings and inadequacies, and with all of its participants, both well-meaning and ill-intentioned (on all sides), has been the ONLY reason these issues have been handled AT ALL.
Wake up, friends. Stop shooting at those who are fighting to SAVE the church, not harm it.
And Joe Sumrow, I admire that you posted with your name. I wish more folks here were not anonymous, but that's their call. My name and contact info is in my profile for all to see if they want to contact me. However, Joe, I think it's mighty small of you to show up here one day calling US sick for simply asking WHY sin is being covered and allowed to flourish within the church.
Self-righteous? No, that would be your pastor and his ilk. I'm genuinely sorry for the anger in my post, but at this moment I think it's warranted.
For all of you who claim that we have no basis for judging people because we've all made "mistakes" and we all sin, how about looking at the other definition of "judgement"? I'm not pronouncing judgement on anyone. I'm asking for us to all use discernment (judgement based on Scriptural principles and Godly wisdom) in looking at these issues.
The Bible clearly tells us how to discern sheep from wolves: You will know them by their fruits.
I see little else but rotten fruit from these trees.
And that's why, while my family and I have left so that we can be spiritually nourished and free to worship without distraction elsewhere, I'm still here fighting for the church I know and love. I grew up here, I've worked here, and I have countless hours and tears invested here. Most of all, I have dear friends and precious family members here who I pray will SEE THE LIGHT and wake up and save their church.
If this makes me self-righteous, Joe, then I guess I'm guilty as charged.
Collin Houseal
westtn,
I understand about TN being an at will state, but I think since the offense, or the one truely known offense happened 17 years ago.... I do not know PW at all, but if the man did not resign 17 years ago when it was made known, what makes you think he wouldn't try to file a worngful termination against BBC, and muck this up even more?
That is what I meant by the church doing their own investigation before terminating him. Just trying to make sense of why he is still on the payroll.
I know everyone takes issue with the term "moral failure" but please remember that he was speaking to a large group of people (including children!) and it would not be appropriate to list the transgressions. What would you have preferred him to say?
My 10 year old sister was in that service. I personally do not want to have to explain what "incest" is to her at this age.
It is clear to me that our church is in dire need of prayer...Who would join me in setting up time slots for all who would partcipate to start a "prayer chain" for our church in this crisis that we now face. I am convinced prayer and supplication is the only way out of the current mess that we find ourselves in. Is anyone already doing this?...I know I felt the burden of prayer like I haven't felt in years and would like to either get one started or join one.
Poor-in-spirit,
I agree. Let's pray. But we don't need to have time slots... we need to pray without ceasing. We don't need to announce "who is praying when" because Jesus taught us to pray in secret for our heavenly Father to take notice.
We also don't need a new prayer building for such as this because we are each the temple of the Living God and all of the buildings on campus are prayer buildings already...
And one more thing: we don't need to pray if we are not willing to act on biblical principles. If God has already spoken on something, then it's time to obey so that he will listen when we pray.
wtb
I'm suddenly struck with the thought that there are some other known victims, or at least some recent activity, that the pastor & Co knows about..even to the extent of names, times and places, and this investigation is to try determine exactly how deep this goes...not whether or not PW is guilty of this sin.
Another question... Bryan Miller's call for people to come forward with information..If PW is truely repentant..why isn't he spilling all the details of the "who and when", and the church can contact those people directly? Can I interpret this that SG does not trust PW to be honest with him on this issue?
If so, this continues to call into question why the pastor just took PW at his word six months ago that it was a one time event 17 years ago? Steve Gaines, as a pastor of large church's for over 20 years, has doubtless encountered this issue before. He should have known that when you find out about an "incident" of this nature, you are usually only seeing the tip of the iceberg. Why did he not quietly have PW go on a "paid leave of absence then," while he investigated?
Two and Two are not adding up to Four.
Bepatient said...
I know everyone takes issue with the term "moral failure" but please remember that he was speaking to a large group of people (including children!) and it would not be appropriate to list the transgressions. What would you have preferred him to say?
My 10 year old sister was in that service. I personally do not want to have to explain what "incest" is to her at this age.
Point well taken...but the 6 months
it took for something to be done about it makes me question our leadership.
Sackcloth,
A hearty AMEN to your 1:16pm post. Especially the last part.
Poor-in-spirit said:
"...but the 6 months
it took for something to be done about it makes me question our leadership."
Response: Bingo. PTL eyes are opening...
Memphis, WTB
PW would have a very difficult time making a case for wrongful termination. If I was on that jury, I'd wonder why he wasn't fired years ago.
GFBC said...
Interesting blog sight from Gardendale:
http://www.al.com/forums/gardendale/index.ssf
Here are a few comments about Steve Gaines from Gardendale, AL:
For one we allowed him to tkae over and gave him ultimate authority. That is not biblical. He treated godly men we loved like dirt and we did not stand up to him and hold him accountable. He changed our services to be seeker-sensitive. I applauded at the time. Now I see it as a violation of the Bible. We had no transparency and no openness. No one could challenge or question him, just like at Bellevue. He damanded absolute loyalty and conformity and he got it. We were stupdid to allow it. Some of us were deceived into believing it was the right thing because our attendance was up. He bragged about the baptisms and the giving. The Bible says God gives the increase, not the pastor and not any of the rest of us. I knew better and foolishly went along because on the surface it looked like we had success.
Those are just a few thoughts.
------------------------------
I am stunned Steve admitted he knew he had a child molester on staff for six months. He fires people for anything but not this? Something is not right about this story. Was this molester blackmailing Steve? It has to be something like that or he would never keep him on staff. Either that or he has become a lot more toleraant since he moved to Memphis.
------------------------------
The matters in Memphis should be of great concern to all who are of faith. Especially those of GFBC. Because of the events in Memphis, GFBC will also be dragged into the spotlight. The events have been put out on a public forum for ALL to see. As a member of GFBC I think I would want to know what is going on so that when someoone asks how I can defend the actions of other Christians then I'll know how to respond. To bury my head in the sand and say "it doesn't concern me" would be to say "I don't care".
There are those who don't believe and will use these events to further their cause. BBC is a mega church in the SBC, just as GFBC is. Both have an impact on the shape of the SBC.
Would you pray for them? Not if you're not concerned. Not if it's none of you're business.
------------------------------
Bellevue has been the most important church in the Southern Baptist Convention for 60 years since the days of R.G. Lee. Steve himself told me Bellevue is the "cornerstone church" for Southern Baptists. I believe what happens at Bellevue should concern all Southern Baptists everywhere.
------------------------------
I've been following the situation in Memphis and have learned a lot about church doctrine, Matthew 18, transparency in church leadership, church bylaws, Warrenism and other various items.
I stated earlier, "a smart man learns from his mistakes, but a wise man learns from the mistakes of others."
----------------------------
to catch on to Gaines. The people in Memphis were led by Adrian Rogers and most of them were paying attention to his leadership. The more I read the more convicted I am that GFBC has made serious mistakes.
1:20 PM, December 19, 2006
Repost from another thread:
Kicked in the gut! said...
Hello Bellevue,
I have been in the stands watching this conflict for months. I can remain silent no longer.
More than twenty-five years ago I was repeatedly victimized by a family member. I vividly remember his warm breath on my neck, the odor of beer stinging my nostrils. I remember the scratch of his whiskers on my innocent face. Members of my family knew about this and did nothing. They remained silent and to this day refuse to openly discuss it. I was often left in this man’s care so my mother could go on dates and spend weekend with friends. My own mother enabled my abuse! This same man victimized others in my family as well. The Lord has strengthened me and has helped me lead a normal life in spite of what happened to me. His other victims have not been so lucky. I know first hand the heartache of incest. God can heal you, but you never forget. It is with me every day of my life. Incest ruins lives. It ruins families, usually for generations.
A few years ago I volunteered to serve in Bellevue’s nursery. As part of the screening process I admitted I was the victim of child sexual abuse, so I was asked to counsel with a Bellevue minister. I willingly submitted to the requested counseling. I told this man what happened to me in detail. He prayed for me and he described the tremendous efforts of Bellevue to prevent child molesters from accessing our children. I felt good knowing what our church was doing and it reassured me my own children were safe.
I have learned the identity of the child molester at Bellevue. I have learned the very man I counseled with is himself a pedophile. I cannot describe the anger I feel right now. I am grief stricken when I remember my counseling session with this “man of God.” He asked for intimate details. I thought it was strange at the time, but I answered him fully. What was he thinking about while I described my childhood terror? I was forced to relive my experience in front of a man who probably enjoyed what I told him. I call that spiritual rape! Am I the only one this happened to?
Bellevue, regardless of how you feel about any other issue in this conflict, please unite to condemn our church’s actions. This accused pedophile still works for Bellevue today! I have lost all respect for our pastor and anyone else who helped hide this man’s sin. I know the pain that I experienced when my family ‘looked the other way’ and kept silent. My heart breaks for the victims of this minister. I grieve for the additional pain heaped on them by those who knew and did nothing. The pastor and all of this man’s protectors must leave our church NOW!
Some of you have screamed “touch not mine anointed.” What are we to do when “mine anointed” have touched us?
Why is anyone discussing wrongful termination? Who cares what PW or anyone else does when compared to what God requires of us. I don't think PW should have been left on staff 6 months ago. God is shining His light on Bellevue. When light shines in a dark place, we start to see things that we've not seen because of the darkness. Would God want us to let a known pedofile remain on staff? The courts can take all $30,000,000 in the bank and give it away to anyone harmed if that will humble our church. The Bellevue leadership better be more concernded with the sheep instead of the shephard and herders.
Bepatient said:
I know everyone takes issue with the term "moral failure" but please remember that he was speaking to a large group of people (including children!) and it would not be appropriate to list the transgressions. What would you have preferred him to say?
I want him to call it a SIN because that is what it is! Listen closely people - our Pastor is very soft on sin, how often do you hear him say the word Sin? How often do you hear him talk about the Blood of Christ?
We have fallen so far so fast when the former mighty Bellevue Baptist Church, a beacon for light and truth, cannot call a moral failure by it's rightful name - sin.
In some states, social workers, medical professionals, clergy, foster parents, attorneys, and camp counselors are required by state law to report a felony crime - more specific the crime of child rape or child molestation. Would someone familiar with Tennessee Law please clarify this. If this is Tennesee Law, then Steve Gaines must be reported and charged with breaking this state law.
Mom4 said,
I knew Paul Williams on a first name basis and never once did I suspect anything even remotely less than what he presented himself to be, which I would think that the same would be true with Dr Rogers. There was no seething presence, no dark spirit, no questionable activities, absolutely nothing to make me question his character.
Response: that is what makes this such a tragedy. PW acted normal! What kind of man can rape his own young son (I cant even type that without knocking some keys off my keyboard) then carry on a normal life!
SG should have immediately recognized the vile nature of this man, that he could present any form of normalcy in front of a CHURCH, full of godly preachers, men and women.
Why did Dr. Rogers not know about this? Because I believe it could have possibly killed Dr. Rogers from a broken heart. That one man on his staff could have done such a horrible act to another human being.
On top of that, being the mans own son! Can you imagine the rage in that house that day when PW committed that unspeakable act! Can you imagine that little innocent boy! After your stomach comes out of your throat read on.
What did this family see in SG they could identify with?
Upon SG hearing this confession there should have been on immediate telephone call that would have had him escorted out of the BBC building that day in handcuffs. Doesn’t BBC have big armed guards to guard SG?
By the way, this is coming from a man (me)who puts his money where his mouth is, see my post from yesterday.
Folks, a pastor is to seek the will of God, teach his word, be above reproach in ALL things. Dr. Rogers summed it up in one word: INTEGRITY.
How can a pastor call such a despicable act "moral failure." There is not even words to describe it, much the less the words to describe how he carried on a normal life, in the ministry, for 17 years.
There has to be more to this story, it is inconceivable to me that a pastor could even function day to day, knowing this man was in the ministry anywhere, much less on his own staff!
Yes, I know I am passionate and emotional, I have a little boy, that looks up to me each day with big trusting baby blue eyes, having complete faith in me that I will never cause personal harm to him! God has entrusted me with such a precious godly son, to teach him about my Heavenly Father.
PW you turn my stomach, and I know you are reading this, repent,you worm! Never, ever return to the ministry. Yes you can be forgiven, but there is never a place for you in the ministry in the formal body of Christ. You will forever carry the title, and be listed in every newspaper as a sex offender. But praise be to Jesus, that he will still forgive you and allow you to have eternal life with Him.
PW this why God is God and I am not, because you would have been dust in the wind 17 years ago.
PW, Worship Him, seek His face, you will find grace, but you will carry this all the days of your life, and his forgiveness will cause you to grow to love Him more and more because of the sick act He can and will, forgive you of.
Wrongful termination is the least of the church's concern. However, legally speaking I see W.T. as of little concern.
Bellevue must use the Bible, not Tennessee law, as our guide.
There's a letter over in "other truths" for those of us who need to "GET YOUR HEARTS RIGHT WITH GOD OR BE THROWN OUT"
Karen
WTB,
What are the legal ramifications to Steve Gaines if the authorities pursue him for his harboring of a child molestor? Can he go to jail?
Karen
WT and swtt, missing my point, I am not saying he has a case for WT, I am simply attempting to figure out why the church would have waited to term him, and all I could think of was a WT suit.
If those comments weren't directed at me personally, then my bad, if they were, above is my reply.
WHY IS PW RECIEVING ONE PENNY OF THE LORDS TITHES AND OFFERINGS, TODAY! HE IS 17 YEARS OVERPAID!
WAKE UP FOR THE NAME OF CHRIST! THIS IS NOT IDLE BANTER OR CHIT CHAT!
A MINISTER ON STAFF AT BBC,RAPED HIS LITTLE SON AND CLEARLY ADMITTED TO IT! AND SG FUNCTIONED NORMAL FOR 6 MONTHS KNOWING THIS. WHY IS SG STILL ON STAFF!
NO EXCUSE! FOLKS, PRAY HARD,
Romans 2
17 Indeed you are called a Jew, and rest on the law, and make your boast in God, 18 and know His will, and approve the things that are excellent, being instructed out of the law, 19 and are confident that you yourself are a guide to the blind, a light to those who are in darkness, 20 an instructor of the foolish, a teacher of babes, having the form of knowledge and truth in the law. 21 You, therefore, who teach another, do you not teach yourself? You who preach that a man should not steal, do you steal? 22 You who say, “Do not commit adultery,” do you commit adultery? You who abhor idols, do you rob temples? 23 You who make your boast in the law, do you dishonor God through breaking the law? 24 For “the name of God is blasphemed among the Gentiles because of you,” as it is written.
WT and swtt, missing my point, I am not saying he has a case for WT, I am simply attempting to figure out why the church would have waited to term him, and all I could think of was a WT suit.
If those comments weren't directed at me personally, then my bad, if they were, above is my reply.
It has been alleged that PW had no contact with children.
Does anyone remember the Sunday when SG sent the staff to help out in the baby and preschool departments when they were short of workers? Where was PW then?
Or that PW was the one who set up the fire escape routes in the baby, preschool and children’s departments.
Or that PW was the one who was giving tours of the preschool renovations.
Did I miss anything else?
Karen, I do not believe SG can be charged criminally in anything regarding PW.
Unless it was an ongoing issue, and there is proof that PW was still actively committing these crimes, which to my knowledge there is no proof.
send the light wrote:
What you and this web site is doing is as bad as or worse than what Bro. Paul did to his son
response: IS THIS WHERE WE HAVE ENDED UP? IS THIS JOE MEMBER AT BBC? CAN YOU IMAGINE IF THIS MAN WAS INTERVIEWED BY THE MEDIA AND MADE THAT STATEMENT, THAT WILL FRY ALL OF US SOUTHERN BAPTISTS IN THE EYES OF THE WORLD.
PRAY HARD AND TAKE CHARGE PEOPLE!
As a pastor, if I were SG, I can already hear the voice of my sweet godly wife "WHY DID YOU LET THIS MAN STAY ON STAFF FOR 6 MONTHS, WHAT IS WRONG WITH YOU!"
Heartbroken is the only way to describe how I feel!
How could a member of the Bellevue leadership, present or past,
rationalize keeping the PW “moral failure” secret and not have
gotten our precious children out of harm’s way by firing him and calling the police the day of his admission? Felony!!!..ring a bell???
How could those “men of God”, supposedly learned in the Holy Bible, not realize that even if PW repented, asked God’s forgiveness, and was forgiven by God and the people to whom he confessed, still remained a human with an extreme human weakness? He’s an admitted PEDOPHILE, RAPIST, ABUSER and VIOLATOR of the most sacred trust on this earth...that of being a parent to an innocent, helpless, trusting child!
Didn’t they understand how Satan works? He attacks at our weakest point. In PW’s case, pedophilia is his weakness. Anyone who has read any further than Genesis knows that Satan would attack him at that weakness! Amazingly, they left him in a place of authority, with children totally accessible to him because of his position in the church. No one would question his interaction with children. He was Bro. Paul! How could they think that he couldn’t, with temptation from Satan, molest another child at any time?
As another poster said earlier, there was nothing in PW’s demeanor or actions that would ever have suggested that he was anything other than who he presented himself to be. I sat under his teaching in DiscipleLife and felt so thankful that we had godly, sincere ministers like him on our Staff.
I recall a Wednesday night, when PW went over the prayer needs of the church, then called that precious son to the pulpit to pray. He proudly stood beside that young man, whose beautiful, pregnant wife sat on the same row with us, and our hearts were so filled with admiration for a father that had raised such a fine Christian son, who would soon be able to teach the gospel of Jesus to his own child. Little did we know that the only person worth admiration on that stage was that fine young man who had endured the worst thing a child could ever endure...betrayal and humiliation at the hands of his own father. We should all be on our knees continually praying for that young man.
Dr. Gaines and anyone else who had knowledge of this revolting situation should be begging forgiveness, first from God, then from young Mr. Williams and then from the Bellevue family for this act of gross negligence and betrayal.
In all the "apology", nothing was ever said about counseling or treatment having been sought for the victim...only for the lousy pervert who victimized him!
In reply to Pastor:
Women and children are not a concern of the current leadership since it is men lead and is run like a Masonic lodge where everything is secret and even the wives of deacons and wives of staff don’t know what’s going on.
Emma,
Very well said. Please pray with us that God opens the eyes of Bellevue's membership. And help us work to that end also.
The Communications Committee has closed up shop. They have left members little other recourse than a blog. The scriptural forum described in Mt. 18 was denied a deacon. etc.
PASTOR
The members of BBC have little to no recourse. There are no bylaws nor business meetings to allow us to have our voices heard. This forum is all we have to express our regret at the unbiblical actions of our leaders.
Can you help BBC to get rid of Steve Gaines and the others who protected a child molestor? Will you weep and pray with us and for us and raise up the righteous indignation of your fellow SBC pastors to admonish the ruling class of BBC?
Will you please help us? Will Dr. Spradlin help us? Is there a righteous man of God somewhere in the SBC that will stand for truth?
Memphis,
I was just addressing wrongful termination in general. Others have emailed me about it already.
Legally it makes no sense to keep him now. Biblically there are no grounds for him to remain in ministry. Politically they look crazy to everyone who takes child molestation seriously, whether Christian or not. How many of the unchurched Memphians we are trying to reach with billboards and radio ads want to bring little Tommy and Susie to BBC right now? I am betting Michael Reagan's reaction is standard for most outsiders looking in.
I am left to wonder if Paul knows something that, if made public, would hurt them even more. Nothing else makes sense to me.
Someone speculated they know he has harmed others. I really hope that is not the case. If it is, I can't twist my logic up enough to figure out why he is still on staff aside from they are scared of what he can do to them.
His being there certainly isn't in the best interests of Bellevue Baptist Church. No, this decision must be based on the best interests of an individual or group of individuals.
Please note this post is speculative, I am not proclaiming that Paul Williams is holding something over their heads. Rather, I am claiming that is one possiblity that makes sense to me.
binwonderin,
I AM POWERLESS, I PASTOR TWO LITTLE START UP CHURCHES, I AM NOT A PLAYER IN THE SBC WORLD, I DONT ATTEND NATIONAL CONVENTIONS OR STATE CONVENTIONS OR LOCAL CONVENTIONS.
I HAVE NOT THE TIME TO BE A PLAYER, I HAVE TO PROVIDE MOST OF MY OWN LIVING, AND THE TWO CHURCHES COMBINED ARE ALMOST AT 300 PEOPLE IN ONE YEAR, WHICH ARE 95% UNCHURCHED PEOPLE, WHICH LEAVES ME WITH LITTLE TIME. I HAVE NO POWER, AUTHORITY OR SAY SO WITH THE EARTHLY STRUCTURAL POWERS THAT BE.
BUT I AM PRAYING THAT GOD WILL MAKE A STATEMENT WITH THIS AND DRAW MEN AND WOMEN TO THEIR KNEES.
WHAT PW AND SG IS DOING IS MAKING MY JOB THAT MUCH TOUGHER!
I AM LOGGING OFF FOR NOW! I HAVE TO GO TO WORK, SO I CAN STAY UP TILL 1AM PREPARING THREE SERMONDS, SERMONS FOR TOMORROW NIGHT, THURSDAY NIGHT AND SUNDAY MORNING.
PW AND SG REALLY DISTURBES ME EMOTIONALLY TO WHERE I CANT FOCUS. REMEMBER THEY ARE ONE OF US, AND WE ARE ONE OF THEM IN THE EYES OF THE WORLD.
BE PREPARED TO CHANGE YOUR NAME TO
OUR LADY OF THE VALLEY, BELLEVUE CATHOLIC CHURCH.
churchmouse,
EB was already retired 17 years ago. Bob Sorrell took over by then. I guess the spin-group didn't do their math or they would have backed it up by a few more years since EB's not around to defend himself. It was a pathetic try at blaming someone else for Steve Gaine's failure. Why are we not hearing from the deacons? Bellevue has this great phone deal where every member can be called in a couple of hours. It would be great to notify the church of a special called business meeting to address the dismissal of our leaders.
Pastor,
God bless you. I wish you were our pastor.
In preparing your sermons, I'd preach on the "Consequences of Sin", "How God is a God of Redemption to Those who Seek Him", and What it means to humble yourself before God".
NASS,
IF MY COMMMENTS ARE OUT OF LINE OR YOU FEEL THEY ARE IN THE WRONG SPIRIT, FEEL FREE TO DELETE THEM, I WILL TRUST YOUR DISCRECION.
THANKS TO ALL OF YOU FOR MAKING ME A BETTER PASTOR, I GUESS THAT MASTERS DEGREE I EARNED AT SOUTHWESTERN BAPTIST THEOLOGICAL SEMINARY DOESNT MEAN I KNOW IT ALL.
LOGGING OFF FOR NOW.
Karen said...
WTB,
What are the legal ramifications to Steve Gaines if the authorities pursue him for his harboring of a child molestor? Can he go to jail?
Karen, I don't have enough specific facts to come to a conclusion on that question.
Generally speaking, I do not believe anyone can rely on ministerial privilege as a legal basis for protecting a child molester. That privilege is outweighed by the public policy concern for protecting children. In other words, as a society we place great value on confidential communications with clergy. We place an ever greater value on the safety of children.
But is it a crime to not report? I believe it can be. I've not researched this question for one minute, so my guess, and it is only a guess, is that no one would pursue a pastor for failure to turn over a pedophile unless the pedophile harmed a child after the pastor learned of the problem. The answer probably lies in the mood and outlook of the district attorney. If he takes his charge to protect the welfare of children as seriously as he should, he might prosecute to set an example for others in the same situation.
I don't know if there is an actionable case against Paul Williams. Again, lack of facts. If there is no case against him, it would seem highly unlikely anyone protecting him would be charged.
pastor,
Are you "pastor" who was mean to me a couple of weeks ago (just checking - not wanting to rehash or ask for forgiveness from you again)?
If you are, your demeanor has changed quite a bit? What happenedn?
If not, welcome!
Karen
Steve Gaines bring it on!
Dr. Rogers was my hero!
My identity:
kevin Landis
817-456-6686
www.trailtoheaven.org
www.dentoncountycowboychurch.org
email kevin@trailtoheaven.org or kevin@dentoncountycowboychurch.org
By the way, if you wonder why I was so infuriated at this blog and all the gossip, I too was a victim of gossip and slander, people jumping to conclusion because of incomplete information and false statements.
http://www.westernrecorder.org/wr/WRSITE.nsf/stories/200634-Perks
http://www.baptiststandard.com/postnuke/index.php?module=htmlpages&func=display&pid=5299
My church knows all the facts and they know that I did not personally profit one penny. When you have honesty and integrity, no one can come against that.
Is PW not being terminated because of a previous lawsuit over the firing of Michael Carrier? In the late nineties, he obtained a copy of the bylaws and sued the church for wrongful termination after allegedly misusing church $$. BBC settled out of court for $,$$$,$$$, not wanting to go public with a trial.
As best I can tell, there are two exceptions to the mandatory reporting law- lawyer/client and clergy/penitent. So legally Steve Gaines was not required to report this. I believe if he felt that there was any time of real danger he would have reported it. I mean, think what you will of the man but his children are there too. I can understand everyone's concerns. 100% But what we see is not all that he is. Just like what you see on these forums is not all there is to the people that post.
God will bring a solution to Bellevue and I think it is insulting to the power of God to act like you know the only path that will "save" us.
I don't know the future for Bellevue, but I know what separates all of us the most. I am willing to accept God's plan- regardless of whether or not that includes Steve Gaines. So many of you sound like you will not accept anything other than him being gone. You just can't be open to any other scenario.
pastor wrote:
"send the light wrote:
"'What you and this web site is doing is as bad as or worse than what Bro. Paul did to his son'
"response: IS THIS WHERE WE HAVE ENDED UP? IS THIS JOE MEMBER AT BBC? CAN YOU IMAGINE IF THIS MAN WAS INTERVIEWED BY THE MEDIA AND MADE THAT STATEMENT, THAT WILL FRY ALL OF US SOUTHERN BAPTISTS IN THE EYES OF THE WORLD."
Not only is it a member, it's a woman who's teaching a girls' SS class!
"As a pastor, if I were SG, I can already hear the voice of my sweet godly wife 'WHY DID YOU LET THIS MAN STAY ON STAFF FOR 6 MONTHS, WHAT IS WRONG WITH YOU!'"
Perhaps it will help you understand why that's more than likely not happening when I tell you that Mrs. SG was reportedly overheard telling someone (I paraphrase), "Oh, Steve has gone through this with every church he's pastored. We always have to go in and clean out the trash."
pastor,
I'd just like to say that I'm amazed and grateful that you've smelled the coffee! Your transformation has truly been miraculous.
NASS (who's still alive and well in spite of your early predictions)
I used to work as a social worker in the state of TN, and there are no exemptions for clergy in TN state law. Everyone is a mandated reporter, and failing to report abuse can be charged as a Class A misdemeanor I believe.
Expect a quote by a local prominent Southern Baptist leader (known to all readers here) in the Commerical Appeal tomorrow. He states that SG should resign if he knew for six months that PW was a pedophile.
NASS,
The Lord prunes me each and every day, again thanks to all of you for making me a better pastor.
I am just outraged at all the churches (no matter the denomination) that is not outraged over the treatment of children. And there is not more of an outcry from the public.
Nass, you got mail
NASS
We always have to go in and clean out the trash.
Perhaps God IS using him (SG) to help clean out some of the "trash" that's collected at BBC over the years?
Who knows? I'm sure that one day, there will be an entire class at SB seminaries everywhere doing post mortems on this mess.
To bepatient:
I cannot be silent, sorry. Please do not give out legal advice or defend someone on what you think the law is, PLEASE?
There is no confidentially privilege when it comes to child abuse. I don't care who you are. Please check the law very carefully. Do not fall into the same trap that Dr. Gaines fell in. You may think you know the law when if fact you don't.
At all times we must protect our children. It is so much better to make a report when you suspect there has or is abuse than to wait and find out you were wrong. You must err on the side of children. The law is clear and requires it. We are to be proactive when it comes to protecting our childern, no expceptions.
And lastly you make your report to the legal authorties NOT some internal investigative body. I am so used to the Catholic Church doing it this way and it is still wrong. Reporting to some internal board or committe only gives them time to circle the wagons.
A note to all, if in doubt call the Department of Child Services. The number in Memphis is 901/578-4000.
I would rather be safe than sorry when it comes to protecting our children. Now is there anyone out there that disagree with me on that?
This is a letter that I am writing to the Commercial Appeal. Hopefully it will be published in the paper tomorrow.
I am absolutely shocked and livid as it relates to the conduct of Steve Gaines, pastor of Bellevue Baptist Church. It was revealed after the sermon Sunday that a minister came to him and admitted to molesting his son 17 years ago. This happened in June. This has been kept a secret for six months. During this time, the children at Bellevue were put in danger.
Why did Steve Gaines not fire him on the spot? Why did Steve Gaines allow for a minister who admitted to being a pedophile to stay on? Why is he still getting paid? These are only some of the questions I along with many other members of Bellevue have about this.
Keeping this hidden from the congregation and acting in a swift manner has not only endangered the children who attend Bellevue, but also removes any trust people have in the leadership at Bellevue. The only way to restore that trust is for Steve Gaines and any other staff member who knew about this to resign their posts. Anything less is unacceptable.
No charges can be brought against anyone for crimes someone told them which happened 17 years ago. (which is the only confirmed incident we know about).
If these crimes continued after the confession and he did not report them, then yes, he could be charged! Let's drop this criminal hunt against SG.
Koragg, why do you feel the need to publish that in the paper? Just curious
Steve Gaines must be held accountable for his inaction. He has brought shame to Bellevue in not booting the pedophile out.
memphis,
Wrong again! You are obviously not qualified to give legal advice and as such you should stop trying.
There are different limitations on different crimes. Murder does not have any time limitation for example.
I was talking to a friend of mine who is in law enforcement last night at the bowling alley. Unfortunately, because of Gaines' role as pastor, he is immune from prosecution under a privilege clause simular to attorney/client privilege.
Tim, sorry, but I am right
memphis,
So please tell me the statue of limitation for murder.
Hasn't some catholic priests been sent to prison for molesting kids 20-30 years earlier?
David- All States have mandatory reporting laws. 8 states have statues that clearly list that clergy is granted exception to this law. The states where clergy is not enumerated as a mandatory reporter (TN)it is generally accepted that as long the state recognizes it their privilege somewhere in their statues that super-cedes the mandatory reporting law.
Granted, this is a gray area- but the fact is that unless it is plainly stated that clergy is not exempt this seems to be the rule rather than the exception in most states that do not specify.
I am not saying that ethically or morally he was not under an obligation. I am simply tired of ridiculous exaggerations that he is going to be preaching from prison.
It is all the outrageousness and exaggerations that give so little credibility when people who are not clear on where they stand come to these forums.
koragg,
Yes!
Murder is a charge levied by the State, someone cannot decide to not press charges when they are murdered. Very different
Koragg, yes they have, but they actually did the molesting, again a different situation
bepatient,
You, your friend Memphis and your little dog toto either need to go to law school or go back to law school. But obviously neither of you are qualified to interpret it. It doesn't matter what your credientials may be. The fact of the matter is that you are both wrong.
Memphis,
This is exactly what I state in my post. There are different limitations for different crimes. So now you were wrong. Sorry, but you were.
Tim, I would have alot more respect for what you have to say if you did not have comments like this in your posts.
"You, your friend Memphis and your little dog toto"
I wish you well and Merry Christmas
memphis,
It was your choice to illicit a condescending attitude.
Merry Christmas to You.
Paul Williams is currently under invesrigation by the Children`s services.
The Child Abuse Hotline is open to taking calls from anyone at Bellevue who believes their children are at risk. You can call them at 1-877-2004.
Paul`s son can still file a police reports against his Father if he wants him to be prosceuted.
Anyone who feels they have been damaged emotionally or physically by SG or the church leadership can file a law suit.
A class action suit can be filed for damages against the church for many issues that have been handled unscupulously.
All of the above came directly from the sources I mentioned. I called each office personally.
And Steve Gaines and company prepare to reap the whirlwind you have created by your abuse of office.
Tim,
can you show me where the TN mandatory reporting law specifically revokes the clergy privilege? Because that is what is required for it to come out of the "gray area" I mentioned before. Maybe it has changed and I am not aware of it.
bepatient said..
I am simply tired of ridiculous exaggerations that he is going to be preaching from prison.
Me too. Comments like this are counterproductive, and can only be motivated by wishful thinking on the part of those that say it. I'm not even sure that PW will be starting a prison ministry anytime soon....unless there are other, more recent victims we don't know about.
bepatient,
Contact an attorney and ask them what your best course of action is in a "grey" area. You might be surprised at what you find out.
Tim, I have nothing against you and did not start questioning your qualifications in any of this, so I am not sure how I started illiciting a condescending attitude.
Anyways, I am off to dinner.
I would like to agree with memphis that the little dog toto remark was uncalled for.
It goes back to the credibility problems I see and why so many people are still reluctant to "side" with you.
memphis & bepatient,
Amazing that the two of you question credibility, immediately after a discourse on something that neither of you know enough about to start touting your legal advice about with.
If you were not aware there are laws against giving legal advice unless you are qualified to do so.
If a comment like your little dog toto ruins my credibility then I suppose that comments about an "itty-bitty" fence would be enough for you to want to hang someone over.
Bruce do you Would the Chairman of the Board of Directors at Bellevue Baptist Church please step out and apology to the congregation for your adultry and join Paul Williams in couseling.
PLease Step down from your position and go without pay and get some counseling at your own expense please.
That`s the scriptual way Bruce.
memphis & bepatient,
Amazing that the two of you question credibility,
No one mentioned anyones creditibilty but you.
immediately after a discourse on something that neither of you know enough about to start touting your legal advice about with.If you were not aware there are laws against giving legal advice unless you are qualified to do so.
I gave no one advice on anything...
If a comment like your little dog toto ruins my credibility then I suppose that comments about an "itty-bitty" fence would be enough for you to want to hang someone over.
Comments about me and comments are a fence are much different.
My whole point was that all this talk of having SG locked up is ridiculous in my opinion.
Dinnertime (for real)
Tim, I will always side with you when you side with God!
Tim -
here is a perfect example. In reference to the "itty-bitty" fence. I don't think there is one person here who really believes he scaled the great big iron gate. A 4 year old could have gotten over or under the rest of that fence. So it is misleading to act like that is what he did.
And him saying "itty-bitty" was not a reference to another person. I take offense at the personal nature of what you said. Instead of just disagreeing with me you had to make a sarcastic remark.
As far as I know I am not giving anyone legal advice. I am simply stating my understanding of the law as it is right now.
I truly do not mean to say you as a person have no credibility- I just mean the general tone of the savingbellevue website and these forums is filled with so many extremest views that it is hard to take it seriously.
I came here to understand more about everyone else's views and so much of what I see is so negative and vengeful that it really makes me feel sympathetic towards SG, which I am assuming is not the goal. (again I do not in any way want you to think I am referring to you in that comment!)
The DA here in Shelby County is pretty strict, as you might remember the child that died on August 2004 after being left in a car at Central North Church in Bartlett, TN. Her father, Stephen McKim, a youth minister at the church, was charged with criminally negligent homicide.
I called the District Attorney`s office today and he is out of pocker until December 27th.
If anyone knows of any other
pedophiles at our church, please speak up now!
If anyone has been a victim of any abuse by anyone at Bellevue, please speak up now.
bepatient,
I may be wrong but I think the fence Dr. Gaines climbed over really wasn't very big. The savingbellevue website had pictures of it; there was the main gate, which was a tall, iron, gate as you described, but the main purpose of showing that picture was to show the sign on it, which said No Trespassing. But the site also had pictures of a much smaller, white, wooden fence, which really could be easily stepped over, or at least without much effort, which from my understanding is what Dr. Gaines stepped over. That's not to excuse this sin, but just a point of clarification.
bepatient,
I think I misread your last comment, so disregard what I said (though I know some people have been confused by the fence issue so that might serve as a point of clarification).
Well let me try one more time. Stop talking to cops, friends and paralegals, etc. TCA was changed this summer in this area. Please spend the time to check it out.
EVERYONE must report suspected child abuse and that includes Steve Gaines, either in his role as Pastor or as a parent. THERE IS NO WIGGLE ROOM. That is the law in Tennessee. Don't believe call the number I posted earlier.
Why are we aruging this? ARE NOT OUR CHILDREN MORE IMPORTANT?
That is what I was trying to clarify. Thanks. Breaking the law is a sin. There is no need to mislead or exaggerate.
Many on this blog have been sitting on this information for weeks and did not contact authorities.
You are guilty of the same crime you are assailing your preacher about.
A week or two is just an "itty bitty" amount of time so you aren't really guilty? Is that how it goes?
Seems the church is just as full of hypocrites as it has always been.
GraceUponGrace,
Not trying to rehash what's been hashed to death already, but how does the relative difficulty involved in committing an illegal act have any bearing on anything?
Running a red light is as easy as stomping on the accelerator, or not applying the brakes. Either way, I've broken the law and put others in grave danger.
Plankeye,
Are you seriously trying to equate those here and elsewhere who have simply heard allegations floating around to those with direct, unquestioned, detailed knowledge of an incident?
Good grief, friend, can you not see the difference?
Most of us here knew precious little beyond the fact that an incident had occurred and it was being kept quiet. Many did not even know names to attach to the incident. What, pray tell, were they to report?
David-
I clearly stated in my post that it was my understanding of the law and also said that it may have been updated and I wasn't aware of it. I did not intend to mislead anyone. I would be interested in seeing the information on the change if you know where to find it. I prefer to see it for myself rather than talk to someone at the Dept. of Child Services. Thanks.
You may have not known the names, but there are many here who dare not feign ignorance.
You may have not known the names, but there are many here who dare not feign ignorance.
Yes, and the one to whom you should be directing your concern is Steve Gaines. He surely was not ignorant, and as the executive pastor, he above all others had a direct Scriptural obligation to fulfill. How dare you point the finger back at the sheep, when the shepherd himself has turned a blind eye?
In fact, BECAUSE the shepherd turned a blind eye, we the sheep have had to speak up and take action.
Truthhound,
Your actually going to compare someone who unknowingly accidentally bought 1 glass of wine for someone else to someone who had a 5 year affair and shows no remorse and also to someone who raped his son? Come on! I pray that you don't accidentally drive over the speed limit or something and someone compare it to major moral or criminal offenses. Shame.
Blessmewiththetrust - why do you ask for someone to resign that isn't even on yet, has 35 years of stellar service and integrity, hasn't been involved in any of the past issues, and is one of the most qualified to help the church?
Hecanhear - the investigation is external and involving law so you don't have much information.
Karen - see above comments
Folks, we have a few serious issues here and a ton of silly ones. Let's not waste time on the silly ones. You want to attack and find dirt on all leaders (many of whom are the godliest around)rather than the possible select few or less in the bunch that may be guilty. There is no reason to go after Mark, Brian, David, Harry, etc. Others have actions that may warrant it, but not these godly men.
After Ted Haggard was remove, the board of overseers has been interviewing all 200 New Life staff members and so far found this.
http://www.krdotv.com/story.cfm?
nav=news&storyID=1758
Don't blame the media for putting Paul Williams name out to the world - I just copied this from Bellevue.org:
From the Bellevue Personnel Committee to the congregation
of Bellevue Baptist Church.
December 17, 2006
A past, but highly concerning moral failure by a staff member has come to the attention of the leadership of the church. Accordingly, in conjunction with the advice of legal counsel, we have asked Paul Williams to take a paid leave of absence to allow for a confidential, but complete investigation of this situation. As part of this review process, we would ask anyone who believes that they have factual information to inform our judgment in this process to contact Mark Dougharty in the Office of the Pastor. We ask that you support this process by allowing us to complete our work without dealing with misinformation, rumor, or gossip. We will issue a statement when the investigation is complete.
Paul will continue to be supported through outside Christian counseling and the support of our Biblical Guidance Ministry. However, he will have no church responsibilities and will not be on campus during this review process. Dr. Gaines has directed the Personnel Committee to work with staff, legal counsel, and a human resource consultant to ensure that our overall policies and procedures conform to the higher level of standards for our staff as well as assuring effective communication between our Biblical Guidance Ministry, Human Resources Office, and the Personnel Committee.
As we go through this time together as a church family, may each of us examine our own heart.
Please be in prayer for the Williams’ family as well as your Personnel Committee as we carefully and prayerfully work through this process.
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