There is currently a serious situation at Bellevue that is just now coming to light. References have been made to this issue in the past few days, but the story is getting out now, and I think it's time to address it openly. A discussion was started in the "Apologies and Forgiveness" thread on December 14th after a list of needed changes for "Pastoral Accountability to the Congregation" was posted by "25+yrs@bbc" which included this:
"Timely removal from office of ministers guilty of sexual immorality with immediate and timely coordination with the appropriate authorities if any laws have been broken by a minister (no matter how long ago), including thorough investigation of the matter when the minister's conduct may have affected other church members or their children."
A poster with the screen name "sackcloth&ashes" wrote:
"Bellevue has a minister who has been on staff for many years who, while serving on staff at Bellevue, sexually molested and sodomized his own pre-teen son and continued for some time thereafter.
"The son is now of age and he confronted his minister father and the minister confessed in front of witnesses at the church.
"Gaines has known about this for well over a month and little to nothing has been done. Gaines said that it was "under the blood."
"While that may be true, it still does not relieve the minister of consequences in this life. If he would do such a thing with his own son, then perhaps it would be easier with someone else's. Usually this kind of thing can involve many other children.
"To make matters worse, this minister has been over the record keeping for children's workers for quite some time.
"This is far bigger than some private, family sin. Gaines should have removed the minister from Bellevue the MOMENT he found out about it.
"Ministers of Bellevue have been removed in the past for adultery... how could Gaines have thought that incest and sodomy were not as serious?
"God is cleaning house at Bellevue... The membership needs to wake up! It is time to stop all the standing ovations and get down on our faces and seek God.
"Mothers of Bellevue find your voices and fathers of Bellevue find your courage! Your leaders have been quiet and spineless.
"It is way past time for light and truth."
And that pretty much sums up all most of us know about it other than the names of the minister and his son. The discussion continued from there with a couple of people strongly urging the name of the minister involved be revealed in this forum. While many are aware of the man's name, including the proper authorities now, he does have a family and we need to respect their feelings, especially those of this man's son who is the real victim in all this. Therefore, in the discussions which will inevitably follow, at least until this story becomes officially public, I would request that no mention of this man's or any of his family's names be made in this forum. This news unfortunately is likely to break in the media very soon, but we do not have to broadcast the details of the story here, especially since we really don't know all the details. This is not the place for speculation about what did or didn't happen in this family. It's also not right to say that Dr. Rogers may have known about it. There's no evidence whatsoever than anyone outside the immediate family knew anything about this until the past few months when the son came forward with it and the minister confessed before Steve Gaines and other witnesses.
The discussion here now needs to focus on how the cover up of this issue by the administration has affected Bellevue and how we should go forward from here. The proper authorities must be entrusted to handle the specifics of the situation with the perpetrator and victim.
Some questions to consider include:
1. When did Steve Gaines learn about this situation?
2. What other staff members were aware of it and when?
3. What did Steve Gaines and the administration do about the situation? Did anyone call the authorities?
4. Why wasn't this staff minister immediately fired? Why is he still serving on the staff at all?
5. Since he was allowed to remain on staff, were any measures put into place to ensure this man never came into contact with children while at church?
Maybe this comment by "westtnbarrister" sums it up best:
"I first heard this molestation story roughly two weeks ago. I found the tale so stunning I couldn’t believe it was true. Not at Bellevue! Gradually, as more and more details have come out, my disbelief and shock were transformed into belief and anger. How could our pastor know this and do nothing? How about those other ministers on staff? Was there not even one man willing to risk his job for the truth? For children?"
There are many comments on this topic in the "Apologies and Forgiveness" thread which is the thread just prior to this one beginning around 10:50 a.m. on December 14th. Please continue that discussion in this thread.
There is also the allegation that a Bellevue Board of Directors member has been involved in an ongoing extramarital relationship, and he has reportedly been asked to resign. Whether or not he has complied, no one seems to be certain, but again, I would ask that any discussion of this matter also be conducted without mentioning names -- again for the sake of the families involved.
I cannot begin to fathom how painful this has been and will be for these families in the days and weeks to come. I fear there are going to be some dark days for our church in the weeks to come as well. Please, let's pray for the families that the Lord will comfort and strengthen them in this stressful time. And let's pray that Bellevue will be cleansed from the inside out and returned to the shining beacon on a hill it once was. There's much housecleaning to be done before that can ever happen.
The first 9 comments are reposts of some of the more relevant comments from the previous thread.
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«Oldest ‹Older 201 – 400 of 464 Newer› Newest»cjesusnme,
If you want to make a statement, I will be happy to loan you my two year old. I trust you more than the church.
You can call the office of the Supervisor of Security at Bellevue at 347-5230. I am told that the Supervisor is Ralph Anderson.
David Brown said,
"I was told this happened 17 years ago and it was reported it at that time. Which begs the question, why was this man allowed to stay in the Minstry? I have to question that it was reported 17 years ago, sorry."
churchmouse says: At that time, about 1989, we were at the church every time the doors were opened; Sunday mornings, Sunday nights, Wednesday nights, and more. We had a child near the age of the victim and interacted with the family because of this. This minister was never brought before the church as other ministers have been. He was held in high regard prior to this time period and has remained so until now. It may have been "reported", but no discernable action was taken. I question if the problem was reported to the right people, if reported at all.
E-Mailed Out in Mass. Please Check Yours.
?????
2. The event that was scheduled for this afternoon has been postponed. An announcement will be made regarding that later.
?????
Announcement by who? the church? the blog?
What on earth is going on?!Is evil just running amuck up at the BBC?? It seems that every day things come out that are more absurd than the day before!
Wow. I hardly even know what to say. As I have read over this blog I, like many of you, have been brought to tears. Not to mention thoroughly nauseated at the revelation of sexual abuse by a man who I have always thought highly of. I grieve for him, his family, and the thousands of others who have been or will be affected by this situation. I will continue to pray.
What a sad, sad day for Bellevue. The parts of this story that I have confirmed create a misery in my soul that is beyond words. How I grieve for this minister and his precious family, for our church, and on and on. Our hearts are collectively breaking in pieces and our pain is definitely being felt by our Heavenly Father and heard at His holy throne. But as we grieve, Satan is laughing hysterically and preening at what he thinks he has accomplished at our beloved church. The Sunday service tomorrow, with worship that should be directed at a Holy God (especially right here at Christmas!), has already been hijacked by the schemer and his plans to derail any glory that is God's.
How very sad that a man's confessed sin from so many years ago (regardless of the way it was handled then or now) comes back to haunt him and condemn him in such a public way. In Satan's plan, what the minister did to his son was not bad enough -- now he must drag our church through the streets of scandal on public display. The Bible says that sin of this nature is not even to be discussed in the open. Yet, the discussions that have ensued and the resultant "outing" of this minister have destroyed him and his family (I confirmed this morning that he is no longer on the ministerial staff) and could potentially bring down countless others in their wake. Had it been dealt with properly 17 years ago, he probably could have gone quietly away from the ministry (or into the hands of the authorities) and there would have been very little ripple effect.
I hope and pray that those who chose not to bring this public before now (17 years ago, 2 months ago, last week) had reasons for the decisions they made. Some of those individuals have not chosen to speak up and defend their actions. Some have not yet had the opportunity because they never intended for these issues to be publicized in the first place and it's only been a matter of a few days since they all came to a head. But it is my opinion that the thirst for Bro. Steve's blood (the desire for his resignation) has driven this whole issue to the point now where it is going to have to be dealt with because the gossip mill will have nothing less than that "full disclosure" to which we feel so entitled.
I do not know why this was handled the way it was handled. But despite my disappointment on so many levels, I am willing to hear reasonable explanations and I am waiting in an attitude of brokenhearted and greatly burdened prayer. I know that I join all of you in this heartache -- I hear your pain, your outrage, and your disgust loud and clear with every post you've made. I'm not attempting to minimize or defend anything.
But let's not let the true adversary (not each other, but Satan, the father of all lies and the source of all destruction) have anymore victory in this situation than he already has. May the Spirit of the Living Christ indwell every attitude we display, hold every thought captive for His glory, and make us merciful, forgiving, and loving to those who are standing in need of His touch and healing. Especially each other.
I also wish there was a way for tomorrow's service to be limited to "family only" so that these issues can be properly dealt with (and not publicly). My heart aches even more to think that a lost person might be there to be impacted in the least over this. At the very least, a sign-in sheet with the showing of proper ID would be a great start. Does anyone else think this would be helpful?
When a man's heart is full of deceipt, it burns up, dies, and a dark shadow falls over his soul. From the ashes of a once great man has risen a curse, a wrong that must be righted.....
That statement is something that I found that appears to fit the situation at Bellevue right now. Are police reports considered public domain? I would be interested in seeing that report. How interesting is it that this was filed right about the time all of thise was begining to come to light?
MAYBE: your response has angered me. I will be front with you. I am the one that has been trying to get to the truth of this as my position with SNAP. wwww.rememberthesurvivors.com. It wsa confirmed to me "offically" by Bellevue administration. I had asked to meet with Dr. Gaines but he chose to have someone else contact me.
How dare you to be feeling so sorry for this minister. You do care for his victim. WHAT ABOUT HIM? That is my concern. You say his "sin" as being so long ago. What do you really know about pedophiles?
I know a lot, see I was raped by a priest in Nashville long ago. The Catholic Church said he was repentant and had treatment yet he continued to abuse boys.
I am not going to go on about my abuse. NASS has the link and you can look it up.
My question to you sir is this: Why has a KNOWN pedophile been allowed to remain on staff, either 17 years, 17 days or even for one minute? If you feel this man is safe would you be willing to let your chilren or grandkids be alone with him now you know about his past?
And Choice you are wrong about his status. As of yesterday morning I was told "offically" he has been removed of his duties pending the outcome of an investigation. An internal investigation. That came from Dr. Gaines' office not someone who thinks they might know something.
Further more this man has been on the campus and in his office as recenlty as yesterday. I don't call that removed do you?
Bellevue may hurt over this but I know that our LORD is at work here. I will not stand by and see one more child in danger.
Choice please get the story straight. Unless you have heard it from Dr. Gaines you have not heard anything. Trust me on that one.
Also as I have ueed my name and email information and it is out there for all to see. Why don't you do the same? Quit hiding behind false identities.
I am sorry to get so angry with you but when you defend a pedophile and refuse to call what he did as rape and sodomy, I get upset. True the politically correct term was this boy was abused. But that does not tell the true story does it? Yes it is a sin of the worse kind and for victims the abuser may be forgiven but we live the rest of our lives with the consequences of their sin. And that I will not water down.
Fellow brother and sisters in Christ it is way past time for Bellevue to be truthful about this situation and to be transparent. I do not care anyhing about all this other stuff that is out there. This one issues is my fight and I will not rest until the truth has been told. And our LORD is watching the actions of those that know the truth and refuse to tell the truth or take the appropriate actions.
3:24 PM, December 16, 2006
Posted to It's Time for Truth!
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maybejustmaybe said...The Bible says that sin of this nature is not even to be discussed in the open. Yet, the discussions that have ensued and the resultant "outing" of this minister have destroyed him and his family (I confirmed this morning that he is no longer on the ministerial staff) and could potentially bring down countless others in their wake.
Do I understand you correctly? Are you trying to say that this should have been kept quiet?
Two more questions for you.
1- Do you think that criminal activites like this should not be "outted" or reported to the police?
2-What about the people who hushed this up should they not pay a price for their silence?
I do not know why this was handled the way it was handled. But despite my disappointment on so many levels, I am willing to hear reasonable explanations
Seriously ,here is the real explaination Steve Gaines handled this like all other problems and scandals that plauges our Church.First he ignores it ,next his supporters are cut loose to attack the messengers,lastly when that fails as the truth will always outshine darkness he will give his apology "Ah shucks folks I'm sorry IF I offended anyone, lets move on" and his minions will give him a standing ovation.
Then the process starts over as the next scandle begins.
I personally know of somebody who called the BBC Security office this morning at 347-5230 and spoke with a BBC Security Guard on duty. This lady inquired as to what happened at BBC this past Tuesday, 12/12/2006. The BBC Security Guard would not divulge any details regarding the incident. In fact, he said that “he did not have any information about the incident.” He told her to speak with Ralph Anderson, BBC Security Supervisor; however, Mr. Anderson would not be at BBC until Sunday morning at approximately 8:00am.
Here’s the real clincher: The BBC Security guard told this lady “unfortunately Ma’am, it’s just a sign of the times.” Whoa! Is this where we are now? It’s just a sign of the times?? Our Security personnel are normally very visible inside the buildings AND around the parking lots and ball fields. However, it is unacceptable to just blow it off as being “a sign of the times.” These are our children and our wives. This is our church.
Questions to Consider:
1) Was it inside one of the BBC buildings? If so…what building? A classroom? A bathroom?
2) What time of day this this travesty occur? During the SCT performance? Middle of the day? Middle of the night?
3) What is being done to increase security? None of us are immune to crime. No place is immune to a crime occurring. Our church should be a place of refuge and sanctuary, not a 3-ring circus with a bunch of puppets masquerading as leaders.
4) How about i2? Do we dare touch on the details such as dry ice, low lights (real dark to be blunt), loud music? Did we start posting security in and around the bathrooms just because, or did we do this because of other incidents? Does it make sense to include 18-year old kids with 29-year old professional adults? Are we setting ourselves up for disaster…and other incidents? What is the threshold of pain we are willing to endure before this is stopped?
My suggestions: Call BBC Security. Call our leadership. Call the Deacons. Bring this up in our Sunday School classes (oops, I guess I am supposed to say Bible Fellowship classes now.) And the obvious….let’s keep on praying. Finally, we need to share facts with others!
David Brown,
I've been away for a few hours - will there be or has there been a press conference?
Does anyone know what will be said in church tomorrow?
Do we have a plan?
Karen
“There is little credible evidence claiming that sexual predators can be rehabilitated. You certainly don’t want to test this on your daughters.”
“God gives all of us a responsibility to protect others, especially children, from a sinful lifestyle (Luke 17:1-2). If you turn a blind eye, simply hoping nothing will happen, you are potentially a co-conspirator in the abuse of your children.”
“That “sleeping dog” may try to jump up and bite your girls. As difficult as it may be, you must come to their defense. You may feel powerless, but the God of the universe will be your strength (2 Corinthians 12:9).”
Any idea who penned this text? It was Dr. Rogers in the September 23, 2001 edition of The Commercial Appeal.
How timely….and what good guidance.
Maybe,
I am disgusted at your comments. I just cannot find the words to say how utterly liberal and unholy you are in your attempts to conceal and overlook this most heinous of sins. The hedge of protecion that we have lost has been at the hands of unscruptulous men in leadership positions. We have ministers, deacons and board members involved in some of the most vile sins imaginable or the cover up of those sins and you are attempting to soften the pain that they are bearing. You have no compassion for the victims of these men or you would not say the things you do with such an arrogance.
I am sorry for their families and the pain that they must bear as we suppose that they are victims as well. But do you know for a fact that they were not aware of these sins and failed to address them or get help for the helpless. Did the business associates of the board member in adultery attempt to bring him before the church after he refused to repent?
I have come to believe that perhaps you should move your membership to a more liberal church where you can gain some support from like-minded individuals. Perhaps you may want to attend the services at FUMC tomorrow and let the Lord deal with BBC as He is obviously doing.
What is that old song...I think it is something like "When answers aren't enough, there is Jesus".
There is no place for anger at me for my post. I stand by what I said. Because I am willing to wait and let this be addressed in a PROPER manner, then once again I am shot in front of a firing squad, called a liberal (if you knew me, Mom4, you wouldn't have the nerve), and told that I am unsympathetic to victims of sexual abuse.
I have family members and intimate friends who have suffered sexual abuse and I know the pain of that all too well. I said NOTHING that could be at all construed as not being sensitive to this minister's son. I said I feel sorry for the victim, as well as the minister, and I do.
YES, the sin of incest is HEINOUS, but so is lying, so is gossip, so is namecalling, so is being quick to judge, so is overeating, so is not bearing one another's burdens, so is not being submissive to my husband. It's all sin, it's all black and ugly, and it's all a stench in the nostrils of God. I have never said otherwise.
I clearly said I do not excuse the sin of this minister. Clearly. And I made every effort to be sensitive to the pain of you, my brothers and sisters in Christ, as we all come to grips with this horrible tragedy.
And what did you do? You attacked me anyway. And you said things about my character that are patently untrue. Does that somehow make you feel better about any of this?
I will be at Bellevue in the morning, because I have an obligation to be where God wants me to be. I will not be attending FUMC or any other fellowship for quite some time to come -- although I'm beginning to think that another church's members might certainly be a whole lot more pleasant to worship alongside.
Think what you want to about me. You will anyway.
maybejustmaybe,
Your response is repulsive. If you feel the need to say something to someone, go to Steve Gaines. If he had handled this two months ago, we wouldn't be here today discussing this issue. Steve Gaines has brought shame on himself and the men who have fallen on the sword for him. His selfishness has now brought shame on Bellevue Baptist Church once again when it didn't have to be this way. It's all about what's in the best interest of Steve Gaines. He probably didn't want another staff member to disappear because it would look bad on him.
Steve Gaines is going to have to give answers himself to the church. We will not settle for anyone else but him. Steve Gaines, if you read this blog today, please address the church in all 3 services tomorrow and be truthful the first time. Don't say anything if you aren't willing to speak the truth. We are not interested in hearing anything but the truth.
How could a leader make as many blunders in the past year? This is not by accident folks. We are seeing the result of poor leadership that started showing it's head September 11, 2005.
chazzo,
I agree! Leave the arguing behind. We are dealing with serious business and the antagonistic comments and name calling have to stop. Don't you realize what we're dealing with? Immoral and illegal activity in our church! How the leadership steps up the plate tomorrow will determine the future of BBC and its members. Don't kids yourselves; this is the real deal.
Karen
Bereans -
Well Said!
bereans,
I don't think they are administering church discipline because they are breaking the qualification themselves as being a "lover of money" or "greedy of filthy lucre" not to mention beaking a few other requirements of being a pastor and deacon.
It's almost next to impossible for a leader to do the right things when he himself is involved in wrong. This is why we are seeing these things happen. Have you thought about what we don't know because of the secrecy of this administration? This is what is very disturbing to me to think about what's next.
The Southern Baptist Sexual Cover Up
On December 8, 2003, Daniel Stahl, Senior Pastor and the leader of Bay Life Church of Brandon, Florida announced from the pulpit that he was resigning to focus on repairing his marriage, which he admitted was strained partly because of an affair he had. The resignation capped a six-week sabbatical Stahl had taken from one of the area's larger (Southern Baptist Convention) churches, boasting 2,400 in the pews each Sunday. Stahl had hoped to work out marital problems with his wife of 28 years, Billie. He was on leave when church elders recently recommended he resign. Stahl, 49, has been a minister for nearly three decades, working at churches in Kentucky, California and Texas before arriving in Brandon 23 years ago. He once worked at Bell Shoals Baptist Church in Brandon - but long before another pastor, the Rev. Ken Alford, 47, resigned February 25,2002, under similar circumstances. Alford led Bell Shoals Baptist for 8 1/2 years and has been a pastor for 21 years, said he was resigning after marital problems and a "one-time moral indiscretion." Alford was later hired to be the interim pastor at Calvary Baptist in Clearwater.
On April 2, 2004 the Media reported Adam Michael Frazier, a District 4 School Board candidate and the youth minister at Landmark Baptist Church in Brooksville, was arrested Thursday and charged with having sexual relations with a 15-year-old girl. The charge - lewd and lascivious molestation of a minor - was a second-degree felony punishable by up to 15 years in prison. Frazier, 20, the son of a Baptist minister, has admitted his actions, according to an arrest report, and was being held Thursday afternoon at the Hernando County Jail in lieu of $50,000 bail.
According to the report, the sexual contact occurred in June and July when Frazier was 19. He ministered to the girl at Landmark Baptist. The sexual relations were consensual and, according to authorities, witnessed by several of the girl's friends, who are also minors. The encounters happened at the girl's house and while Frazier was driving her home from church, according to the report. In addition to mutual fondling, the girl on several occasions performed oral sex on Frazier, who bragged to a friend about the incidents, the report states.
Dan Earl Allmond, Youth Pastor of Tampa Baptist Church, Tampa, a Southern Baptist Church, and a married man, suddenly resigned on December 9, 1998 and disappeared off the scene when the police were called in concerning a complaint made by a female high school student that she was having sex with the pastor as a minor.
Senior Pastor McCormick of Tampa Baptist Church denied all knowledge about the sexual activities and ordered the staff of Tampa Baptist Academy to stay silent on the whole matter and not to discuss Dan's previous sexual escapades with no one! McCormick's own daughter was sexually promiscuous and had to leave school for a while for fear of being pregnant.
The bible states that a Senior Pastor must be one who rules his own house well, having his children in submission with all reverence (for if a man does not know how to rule his own house, how will he take care of the church of God?). Hence Senior Pastor McCormick resigned as pastor in the spring of the next year when he sought to divorce his wife.
Dan Earl Allmond faced two counts of unlawful sexual activity with a minor. Police said that the youth pastor had sexual relations with the girl on church property and at his home on W Paris Street. The sexual relations occurred between August and October, Cole said according to jail records reported the Tampa Tribune.
Allmond is a Sex Offender under Florida law and now the Florida Department of Law Enforcement's Sexual Offender/Predator Unit has his picture posted on the web at http://www.fdle.state.fl.us/sexual_predators/OffenderFlyer.asp?keys=26812
Most Southern Baptist pastors and preachers are hypocrites in that they don't practice what they preach. According to Southern Baptists own statistics and reports most of their pastors are sexual perverts and reality shows their church leaders protects their pastors and not the sheep.
Just as a hidden iceberg destroyed the Titanic after the crew had ignored multiple warnings, lives and ministries of pastors and other church staff are being destroyed at a remarkable rate by sexual infidelity, the president of the Southern Baptist North American Mission Board warned a group of pastors, missionaries and other denominational leaders.
Robert E. Reccord cautioned pastors, missionaries and other denominational leaders attending the April 10-13 Connection 2002 conference in Ontario, California, about avoiding temptations that lead to sexual infidelity.
Reccord cited survey statistics from the book "Men's Secret Wars" by Patrick Means that indicated 64 percent of pastors or church staff struggled with sexual addiction or compulsion. Twenty-five percent admitted to having sexual intercourse with someone besides their wife while married, and after they had accepted Christ. Another 14 percent admitted some form of sexual contact short of intercourse.
Reccord also noted the importance of every Christian leader having someone to whom he is accountable, someone who will ask him the hard questions about his personal life and thoughts. He noted research which found little in common among more than 200 fallen ministers except two things: all no longer had a regular quiet time in fellowship with God, and none had made themselves accountable to a person or group.
Ann Graham Lotz, the second daughter of Southern Baptist Evangelist Billy Graham, stated in Tampa, Florida in April 2002, ``I'm not accountable to my critics, I'm only accountable to God.'' And her father Billy Graham had tried to avoid accountability for his criticism of Jews that was caught on tape decades ago on his age and forgetfulness. The "I don't recall" technique was used often by former president Bill Clinton to avoid accountability concerning his sexual liaison with Monica Lewinsky in the White House.
Sexual involvement by Baptist leaders with others is a real problem in North America. A 1991 national survey of mainly Protestant pastors by a group at the Center for Ethics and Social Policy, Graduate Theological Union, in Berkeley, California -- described by its researchers as "small and not scientifically controlled" -- uncovered similar findings: About 10 percent of those surveyed had been sexually involved with a parishioner. Another study published in the winter 1993 Journal of Pastoral Care found that only 6.1 percent of Southern Baptist pastor respondents admitted to having sexual contact with a person either currently or formerly affiliated with their church.
Surveys of ministers reveal the existence of a growing moral breakdown in pastors' lives. Almost one in four pastors answered yes to the question, "Since you've been in local church ministry, have you ever done anything with someone (not your spouse) that you feel was sexually inappropriate?" One in five pastors confessed to sexual misconduct of some kind, with one in eight admitting adultery, and only 4 in 100 were found out by their local church. (1988 survey in Leadership magazine).
On April 8, 2002 the Christian Science Monitor reported that 'Despite headlines focusing on the priest pedophile problem in the Roman Catholic Church, most American churches being hit with child sexual-abuse allegations are Protestant, and most of the alleged abusers are not clergy or staff, but church volunteers. These are findings from national surveys by Christian Ministry Resources (CMR), a tax and legal-advice publisher serving more than 75,000 congregations and 1,000 denominational agencies nationwide.
The CMR findings also reveal:
- Most church child-sexual-abuse cases involve a single victim.
- Law suits or out-of-court settlements were a result in 21 percent of the allegations reported in the 2000 survey.
- Volunteers are more likely than clergy or paid staff to be abusers. Perhaps more startling, children at churches are accused of sexual abuse as often as are clergy and staff. In 1999, for example, 42 percent of alleged child abusers were volunteers - about 25 percent were paid staff members (including clergy) and 25 percent were other children.
On March 25, 2002 the LA Times in an article by TERESA WATANABE, Times Staff Writer Sex Abuse by Clerics-a Crisis of Many Faiths wrote
The wave of clergy sex scandals now engulfing the Roman Catholic Church has battered other denominations as well, producing an uneven record of response that ranges from the Episcopal Church's aggressive and detailed policies to the Southern Baptist Convention's widespread lack of written standards…
Similar charges have been leveled against the Southern Baptist Convention, the largest of the Baptist bodies in the United States. Dee Ann Miller, a victim's advocate and author of books about the topic, said she had received complaints from victims in 30 states, half of them involving minors. She said church officials have not been responsive.
When she first told church officials about her own sexual assault by a Southern Baptist missionary in Africa several years ago, Miller said, she was told by two leaders that it was at least partly her fault.
In a 1993 survey by the Journal of Pastoral Care, 14% of Southern Baptist ministers surveyed said they had engaged in inappropriate sexual behavior, 70% said they knew a minister who had and 80% said they lacked written guidelines.
Richard Land, president of the Southern Baptist ethics committee, said the convention's churches are fully autonomous and probably did not adopt written policies because it was obvious that sexual misconduct was wrong. He said training about sexual misconduct is conducted at Southern Baptist seminaries, which produce about half of the convention's clergy, and that the cases he knows about led to swift removal or resignation of the guilty party.
"Most Baptist ministers know sexual misconduct is a career-ending move," he said.
It's amazing that no one is alarmed that the survey reported that "14% of Southern Baptist ministers surveyed said they had engaged in inappropriate sexual behavior." But because Southern Baptist churches and Assembly of God Churches are fully autonomous it's very easy and convenient for these churches to bury a scandal as was done with Tampa Baptist Academy?
A full blown scandal came out in November 98 in the four million member Church of God headquartered in Tennessee. The Church of God is one of the oldest Pentecostal denominations in America even though about fifty percent of its members do not have a Pentecostal experience with the evidence of speaking in tongues. The senior pastor of RiverHills Church of God, Tampa Florida, was also a long-running adulterer for five years. His adultery was with another pastor's wife of University Church of God. Tampa Florida.
The denomination and key members of the church knew about the adultery for around nine months and did nothing about it. That is until someone threatened to post the story on the internet and then the pastor Dempsey resigned.
Riverhills Church of God accepted Senior Pastor Dempsey's resignation but the other church voted to do nothing about the adulterous affair by the pastor's wife as it was considered to be the pastor's problem. Pastor Dempsey was also actively involved in and pushed the Assembly of God Revival in Brownsville. Florida where the financial integrity of pastors and secret way of doing things has also been questioned and brought out by the media.
Without telling the sheep the reasons why the Senior Pastor resigned the Church of God leadership led by interim Pastor - Florida State Overseer J. Smith fleeced from them $ 6,000 to help the wolf in sheep's clothing. The denomination once again put the interests of its pastors above those of the sheep.
J. Smith, the Florida overseer or bishop who handled the crisis for the last three weeks concerning the adultery with the pastor of Riverhills church of God, Tampa and the pastor's wife of University Church of God, Tampa had to have serious heart surgery.
Church officials denied it had anything to do with his dealings concerning the adulterous pastor who was on the state board for Church of God or Smith razing or fleecing money from the sheep at Riverhills without telling them why the adulterous pastor resigned.
Pastor Dempsey broke his oath as a minister by being an adulterer and deceiver for five years and was not entitled to a penny including severance pay with out the church members being told the truth first of what had gone on. But pastors and overseers always try to take care of their own? Then they wonder how they ended up on a hospital bed?
According to insiders, the adulterous Church of God pastor's wife was let off with a slap on the wrist and the State overseer, Smith, would not allow dissenting voices which would have had her removed from the church of God. Other more intelligent churches would have dealt with the adulterous pastor's wife differently. But then in a wise church this matter would never had been covered up for nine months with out exposing and bringing the problem out on the surface for all to see.
So much for the Doctorate degrees which the Church of God leadership has? Definitely they are not worth the paper they are written on if the leadership by their unwise actions have given more people reasons to call Christians hypocrites, liars, thieves and false ones. Definitely they are not true men of God, for true men of God would have dealt with the problem rather than try to hide it.
The Salvation Army would not remove its minister, Gary Hallock of Pennsylvania, from his duties teaching children bible stories, even after he had been arrested for sexually abusing children at his church! The "captain," an equivalent of minister, had victimized seven children, ages four to 15, and even a profoundly retarded 15 year old boy. He was sentenced in 1990 to up to 72 years in prison. Meanwhile, a civil suit was launched against the Salvation Army for their negligence by parents of victims.
The extent to which a minister-molester is held above suspicion, despite blatant criminal acts, is exemplified by a 1987 criminal suit in Nashville. The arrest of Rev. Jack Law, a Baptist minister, was heralded by a headline, "Girl, 5, Raped Under Pew." He was accused not only of that, but of molesting and raping her two sisters.
These crimes took place at the family home as well as during an outing arranged by him so the girls could help him distribute religious tracts. The girls had tried to tell their parents, but were not believed. "Being a preacher," the father said of him to local media, "we thought he was a good man." Law killed himself that year rather than face trial. (The Scandal of Pedophilia in the Church By Annie Laurie Gaylor © 1992)
The Associated Baptist Press reported that SB Denomination Chooses To Be Blind About Sexual Abuse
COUNCIL BLUFFS, Iowa (ABP) -- Dee Miller, and her husband, Ron, envisioned serving God in Central Africa perhaps for the rest of their lives. But more than 10 years ago, their careers as Southern Baptist missionaries ended traumatically. The couple now is serving an American Baptist church in Iowa and speaking out on an issue that is close to home -- the problem of clergy sex abuse and the church's collusion in keeping it quiet, reported the Associated Baptist Press - Victim of sexual abuse by clergy battles code of silence in churches June 2, 2000 - Volume: 00-48 By Laurie Lattimore, http://www.abpnews.com
Miller first told her story of being sexually assaulted by a fellow missionary in a 1993 book, "How Little We Knew," published by Prescott Press. But it was not the attack, she says, but the denomination's efforts to cover it up, that eventually caused her to resign. "They wanted me to go back to sleep, and I'm not going back to sleep, " said Miller.
Miller's alleged perpetrator went on to become pastor of a church in Texas one year after being confronted with claims he sexually assaulted her, plus other co-workers and two children, while on the mission field. Miller and her husband left Southern Baptists in 1990, but they have done anything but leave their mission to help put an end to ministerial sexual abuse.
Every pastor knows of a colleague who was forced to resign amid a sex scandal. In an oft-cited Christianity Today survey, 12 percent of ministers admitted to having engaged in extramarital sex and 23 percent in some other form of illicit sexual activity.
Yet Miller claims that in her case and many others, it is the victim who comes forward to report sexual misconduct, and not the perpetrator, who is put on trial. "Everybody just wants everything back where it was, but a healthy church shouldn't be hoping to go back to where it was," Miller said. "What it was before was a pile of manure with frosting on it. That's all."
Miller admits she "comes down hard" on Southern Baptists and all denominations that turn their heads to the problem of sex abuse by clergy, but she makes no apologies. A desire for a "quick fix" is the worst approach Baptists or any faith group can take in dealing with what experts say is a growing problem, Miller says.
Only recently, however, has any other approach been tried. "The thinking is that we have a quick-fix God, so we want to fix the church quickly and fix the offender fast," Miller said. The quick fix usually involves getting the pastor out of town in a hurry and into another church.
The Associated Baptist Press reported Christian educators take aim at problem of clergy sex abuse and detailed what was going on in present and former Southern Baptist churches. The article also stated "People come to ministers for help by virtue of their office, so there is automatically a power imbalance, so it is always their responsibility," Sapp said.
Sapp said ministers sometime feel flattered to think a parishioner finds them attractive, but he insists the affair has nothing to do with physical attraction. Church members come to the pastor for ministry, not for sex. "I tell them not to get too puffed up on themselves, because that had nothing to do with it," he said. "It was their position, not their handsomeness or whatever."
Because of that unbalanced environment, pastors should follow certain precautions, Sapp says. Likewise, churches need to recognize when they have a potentially dangerous situation and have prevention and intervention policies in place.
The fact that sexual misconduct by ministers is an issue of power and not just morality is part of the reason it is so damaging to churches. Smith says she thought opening up the topic of misconduct for discussion in Baptist circles would reveal a lot of men in midlife crises who become attracted to young, energetic women working in the church. Instead, she discovered a syndrome that involves predators and victims.
"I didn't want to learn that, because it changed how we could handle it," Smith said. She assumed writing a curriculum for seminaries and educating pastors and church members would be enough to remedy the problem. What she discovered is that the solution would have to be much more involved. "I realized we can't just be educators, but we have to be shepherds watching out for our flock to spot the wolves."
Hypocrisy of sex scandals is not limited to only Southern Baptists or Catholics, Charisma News Service reported that Writer Jamie Buckingham's handpicked successor admits affairs with members.
The Florida church founded by the late Jamie Buckingham, visited by thousands during two years of revival meetings, has been rocked by a sex scandal involving the pastor who was handpicked by the famous speaker and writer to replace him, reported Charisma News.
Elders at The Tabernacle Church in Melbourne have enacted strict disciplinary measures against Michael Thompson, 40, after he admitted affairs with three married women he came to know through counseling.
The leaders told the congregation in April that Thompson, married with three children, had been "disfellowshipped" according to the passage in 1 Corinthians 5 in which Christians are counseled to "not keep company with anyone named a brother, who is sexually immoral," and "deliver such a one to Satan."
Church members were advised to "have nothing to do with him," by the elders, who also destroyed the Plexiglas pulpit used by Thompson. Administrative pastor Don Williams told members that "a word from God" had said that the pulpit was tainted.
In a report in the July issue of "Charisma," out today, the Tabernacle's five elders tell the magazine that Thompson had admitted to two short-term affairs several years ago, and one that lasted six years. Each started during counseling.
Ralph Mull, one of the elders, said that Thompson told them that "he'd lied so much, he didn't know what the truth is." The church had offered to pay for Christian counseling for Thompson, his family members, the women and their families. In addition, "mature" women unrelated to staff or elders had been appointed to offer confidential counseling for anyone.
In a statement to "Charisma," Thompson admitted "long-term, sexual sin due to sexual addiction," as well as "massive deception, manipulation and hiding," for which he said he was "truly sorry, broken-hearted and deeply repentant."
He said that he was working with a Spirit-filled therapist who specializes in sexual addiction, and had joined several support and accountability groups. He said he would not return to public or professional ministry, and his first goal was restoration with his wife and children, from whom he was separated.
Although he has not yet supplied a statement of repentance to church elders, he said that he was "prayerfully assessing how to make amends and restitution for my damage to the body of Christ, particularly the Tabernacle church." He said that he wanted to wait until he personally understood the full extent of his sin's impact "so that my repentance and restitution will be authentic and lasting."
Named pastor by Buckingham, who died in 1992, Thompson had stepped down from preaching at the church late last year to pursue itinerant evangelism and promote his book "Face to Face: Beyond Revival." Published in February, the title has been pulled from the shelves of some Christian bookstores since the scandal broke.
Hypocrisy is all over the place amongst the religious right. Operation Rescue (OR) founder Randall Terry had been publicly censured by his pastor for a "pattern of repeated and sinful relationships" with women, "The Washington Post" reported. The accusations were made in a letter by Daniel J. Little, pastor of Landmark Church in Binghamton, N.Y., where Terry had been a member for 15 year
"Many of his longtime friends...are shocked and bewildered that a man who has traveled the country pleading with Christian people to think and act biblically is now thinking and acting so anti-biblically," Little wrote. His letter was posted last week on the Web site of Operation Save America, the new name for OR.
Well-known for his leadership of militant opposition to abortion, Terry called the charges "absolute nonsense, insanity." He told the "Post" that he and his wife had separated and their marriage was in crisis. Their problems were "personal, painful and private." Little had violated a confidential pastor-parishioner relationship, he said.
Terry recently founded Loyal Opposition, a group dedicated to preserving the sanctity of traditional marriage and opposing the legalization of same-sex union moves in Vermont. Marriage is honorable among all, and the bed undefiled; but fornicators and adulterers God will judge. Hebrews 13:4.is still in the bible.
As a kid, I dreamed of being a missionary and thought I would shine the light of truth in the darkest corners of Africa. As it turns out, the darkest corners were closer to home. I have found no blacker darkness than the blindness of Baptist leaders to the horror of clergy sex abuse.
Menorah lights bring reflections on denial and clergy sex abuse
Hear the voices of victims:
Grand Valley Baptist sex abuse case
Language of Foley report
might also apply to Baptist leaders
"A pattern of conduct...to remain willfully ignorant...."
"A disconcerting unwillingness to take responsibility...."
"Sex abuse by clergy
affects all religions"
"Decentralized denominations such as the Southern Baptist Convention have no national policies. Sexual misconduct is
ROUTINELY COVERED UP."
"Are Baptist leaders doing enough about clergy sex-abuse revelations?"
The most tragic part of this article is the BGCT's statement that it does "more than other Baptist groups in trying to stop sexual abuse." This is true, but it just goes to show how Baptists across the country are doing virtually nothing to effectively protect kids against clergy predators. And the BGCT doesn't have any reason for pride. When a man can remain in ministry even after 18 Baptist leaders are informed of a substantiated report about his sexual abuse of a kid, there is a serious problem. When 11 of those leaders are in Texas, and 5 at BGCT offices, they don't have any bragging rights.
More SECRECY from Texas Baptists!
Pastor reported to have settled abuse lawsuit with hush money.
Baptist leaders
will investigate gays
but not child molesting ministers.
If congregational autonomy doesn't preclude a state convention from investigating churches that merely accept gays as members, then why does congregational autonomy preclude conventions from investigating churches that retain in the pulpit ministers who are reported for sexually molesting kids?
Read SNAP's letter to SBC President Frank Page and SBC leaders, Morris Chapman and Richard Land. See the 5 requests for making Southern Baptist churches safer for kids. Decide for yourself. Kids are precious. Predators are crafty. Isn't it time Southern Baptist leaders took action?
What would a good shepherd do? Recite the mantra of "congregational autonomy" or protect the young?
Baptist General Convention of Texas is urged to disclose names of reported clergy molesters in SECRET FILE.
"Less minister than monster"
Hear victim speak about abuse by Baptist minister.
This is an example of how California's extended limitations period gets predators out of pulpits. In most states, prosecution of this monster-minister would not be possible, and he could move on to other prey. Why? Because by the time the victim is capable of talking about it, the law can't prosecute, and denominational leaders do nothing.
Trinity Baptist
— Leaders reported to have known for years that pastor was a pedophile.
— Minister Bob Gray reported to have molested kids as far back as 1949, before he left SBC.
— Jerry Falwell says serial sex-abuse case a mere "bump in the road."
When 22 people report being sexually abused as kids by a church's founding pastor, it's a great deal more than a "little setback." Yet, Jerry Falwell and Jerry Vines sang the church's praise. Makes you wonder just how blind they might be. How many more victims would it take before they call it what it really is - an abomination. With a prominent church mired in reports of child sex cover-ups, Baptist leaders ought to be calling for answers and accountability.
That's what Falwell did in 2002 with harsh words for Catholic leaders. "It is time for the Catholic Church to get serious about protecting children," he said. "Revelations that top U.S. clergy protected pedophiles and failed to prevent them from interacting with credulous children is simply unforgivable. It is criminal!"
"It is time for BAPTIST leaders to get serious about protecting children!"
Why isn't Jerry Falwell saying THAT?
"Baptist Leaders Blind to Their Responsibilities"
"Clergy Predators are as crafty
as Cyber-Predators"
"Most have never been charged with a crime, let alone convicted of one."
Clergy "fall through the cracks" of sex offender tracking.
Most Catholic priests implicated in sex scandals are NOT on sex offender registries even when accusations are deemed credible enough for Catholic officials to remove them from ministry. So they can still wind up working as school teachers.
Most Baptist clergy child molesters are NOT on sex offender registries either. The BIG DIFFERENCE is that Catholics at least have officials who might remove them from ministry. With Baptists, a minister reported for child molestation can not only work as a teacher but he can even stay in the pulpit.
Reflections -
In Dallas, I chatted with a prominent Texas Baptist who repeatedly urged that I should be patient in my requests for action. He had a litany of reasons for why now wasn't a good time, including the fact that the Baptist General Convention of Texas is embroiled in a major financial scandal. He also had a litany of explanations for why nothing was done in the past - "bureaucratic bunglings." I listened for a long time (preachers seem to always be good talkers), but when he said "I know how hard it is to be patient," it called to my mind the letter from the Birmingham jail, written by Martin Luther King, Jr. in response to white Christian leaders who urged patience.
"I hope, sirs, that you can understand our legitimate and unavoidable impatience."
"In the midst of blatant injustices" and crimes inflicted on kids by clergy, I have watched Baptist leaders "stand on the sidelines and mouth pious irrelevancies and sanctimonious trivialities." I have heard so many nice words, and seen so little of deeds. And even the nice words begin to sound perverse when a catchy little phrase like "bureaucratic bunglings" is used to explain an institutionalized practice of turning a blind eye to clergy child molesters.
“Shallow understanding from people of goodwill is more frustrating than absolute misunderstanding from people of ill will."
When kids are at stake, it is not a time for patience. In the words of Susan Dancer, another Baptist abuse survivor:
"Even as I type this...there's another trusting little Christian girl being 'groomed' into the loss of her pride, dignity and innocence.
And even as I type this, as the very seconds pass in which something could be done --- nothing is."
John 18:38 Pilate saith unto him, What is truth?
It is just that God should have chosen a politician to record for eternity this question.
Pilate washed his hands of truth, but they were still stained with blood. Herod placed the burden of truth on someone else, but he was still responsible. The leaders of the church cried out to suppress the truth, but it was still revealed. The crowds were motivated to compromise the truth, but it was without blemish. The soldiers were commanded to execute judgment against the truth, but righteousness prevailed.
This is the question that has perplexed our leaders for months. This is the question that the Communication Committee could not answer. This is the question that has not been responded to from the pulpit.
What truth will be told tomorrow?
Will there be a washing of hands?
Will there be a transfer of the burden of truth?
Will there be a suppression of truth?
Will there be a compromise of truth?
Will there be an unjust judgment against truth?
May Righteousness Prevail!
blessme,
Your post was quite scary - thanks for the info. I guess I'm just naive in thinking I or anyone else are safe from our leaders just because they are in leadership. I think I'm lucky to have grown up in our church when I did. I wouldn't want to be a child or a young teen these days - seems like all they do is watch their backs.
Karen
Tim,
I wouldn't look for any comment about this from the pastor tomorrow. It's "under the rug" now.
NASS
NASS,
From the amount of emails I've gotten today and tonight, there's no way this is going to stay under the rug for long.
Karen
Under the rug? What exactly does that mean?
All of this is being shushed?
Rape? Sodomy? Incest?
A separate incident of forcible rape?
Ongoing adultery by the chairman of the board of directors?
What is going to hit the media and what is not?
And what was the cancelled event?
GRIEVED is not a strong enough enough word
charis,
I would personally believe that the church would want to take the lead instead of waiting for a media frenzy. However, it would be uncharacteristic as of late for our leaders to assume responsibility for anything.
Charis said...
And what was the cancelled event?
David Brown from SNAP was going to have a press conference.
It is up to you and others like you to keep this from going away. You need to contact leadership and make them come clean about what's going on.
Anyone who's reading this blog needs to take a stand tomorrow. However you choose to do that is up to you. Do as the Lord leads you.
Karen
QUESTION: Has anyone who's written a letter to Steve Gaines ever received a reply?
Repeated offenses?
I am in absolute shock.
Stand? Take a stand? I can't stand or eat. Sackcloth and ashes
NASS,
You know my reply to your question, but I'll let everyone else know: NOPE!
Email sent on December 13th. Not a long time considering other letters and emails that have been sent, but I'm still hopeful.
Karen
charis,
I completely sympathize with you - and I am shocked and stunned, but if we keep waiting for "somebody" to do "something", we will continue to allow our leadership to give us the same ole snow job.
Am I the person with all the answers - no way! But I'll take suggestions.
Karen
So the administration is not discussing this, not dismissing the minister? Not showing mercy to his son by taking action?
Is this really true?
I have email from people who have spoken to deacons this weekend - most deacons don't have any clue about any of this - the minister, the rape or the affair. The deacons are not planning anything.
Karen
Recessional
God of our fathers, known of old--
Lord of our far-flung battle line
Beneath whose awful hand we hold
Dominion over palm and pine--
Lord God of Hosts, be with us yet,
Lest we forget - lest we forget!
The tumult and the shouting dies;
The captains and the kings depart:
Still stands Thine ancient sacrifice,
An humble and a contrite heart.
Lord God of Hosts, be with us yet,
Lest we forget - lest we forget!
Far-called, our navies melt away;
On dune and headland sinks the fire:
Lo, all our pomp of yesterday
Is one with Nineveh and Tyre!
Judge of the Nations, spare us yet,
Lest we forget - lest we forget!
If, drunk with sight of power, we loose
Wild tongues that have not Thee in awe--
Such boasting as the Gentiles use
Or lesser breeds without the law--
Lord God of Hosts, be with us yet,
Lest we forget - lest we forget!
For heathen heart that puts her trust
In reeking tube and iron shard--
All valiant dust that builds on dust,
And guarding, calls not Thee to guard--
For frantic boast and foolish word,
Thy mercy on Thy people, Lord!
Kipling
I called security at the church today and the man I spoke with said there was an assault involving two
teenagers on campus but I would have to talk to head of security to know if the assault included rape.
Somebody once said, “Good fences make good neighbors.” You can probably see the wisdom in that. A simple fence, however, will not eliminate the concerns that you have. Furthermore, the impact of their behavior goes far beyond your two homes. This problem affects not only your children, but extends to their children, the other neighbors, and your church.
With regards to your children, hopefully you don’t allow them to watch TV with sexually explicit themes; neither should you allow them in a home where they may be confronted with adultery and the suspicious activities that you mention (Romans 13:14). Conversely, you should not build walls and a moat around your home. Your home should be a beacon of Christ’s (Romans 13:12). Make it a safe haven for your neighbor’s children. You may be the one who keeps them from following the path of their parents (Mark 9:37).
God’s Word is also clear regarding confronting other church members. You are obligated to approach them prayerfully and gently, imploring them to turn around for the sake of both themselves and their church (Matthew 18:15-17). Finally, if you have a valid suspicion of illegal activity, you are obligated to inform the police.
You may be in an uncomfortable situation, but shine the light of Jesus Christ. He will guide your way, but sting the eyes of those walking in darkness.
Dr. Adrian Rogers
Appeared July 29, 2001
© 2001 The Commercial Appeal
Perhaps the fact that the adulterous chairman is a well known lawyer might have intimidated Steve Gaines and his motley crew from confronting him and dismissing him as they should have.
Maybe they got a taste of their own medicine (INTIMIDATION).
I guess when you have a pedophile running around the campus with the blessing of the church leaders, adultry doesn`t look so bad????????
No wonder Steve Gaines doesn`t want to come down hard on singles as married.
Anyone remember that sermon?
The letting go of this minister at this point isn't the issue (not to say that it's unimportant).
The issue is why Dr Gaines sat on this for purportedly months.
Why did he? Why did he allow this minister to interview people who work with our children--people who by policy had to admit to him if they had been sexually molested.
Why was this not dealt with, with full disclosure? When did politics, PR, spin, and damage control become the modus operandi of what was once Fort God? We seem to have traded in our battlements for PR spin machines.
Interesting blog comments from "Anonymous" made almost three months ago can be found at the address below:
www.formerlybrainwashedbellevuer.blogspot.com/2006/09/what-i-am-all-about.html
Custos,
Also, a question that must be asked is did this minister ever substitute in the CHildren's area while some of these workers were in "process"... or did he substitute there at any time in the past??
Does anyone remember him in a smock?
xmas trees? contatas? ovations? does the eternal GOD desire lights and trees and feigned attempts of merriment? or does He desire brokenness and contrition?
may the smiles and laughing turn to tears and mourning!
Christ is shown more honor and reverence when His people weep over sin than when they keep up appearances for some manmade 'season'
The address should read:
www.formerlybrainwashedbellevuer.
blogspot.com/2006/09/what-i-am-all-about.html
“This is not the place for speculation about what did or didn't happen in this family.”
Quite to the contrary, I believe this IS the forum for speculation. You’ve speculated and repeated rumors about Pastor Gaines and other staff members, why pull back here? Don’t you want to put the TRUTH out for everyone to read? I’m disappointed that you’re showing restraint until the facts are actually in. Why not continue your half researched approach?
Plus, did I read correctly that you’re issuing a pass to Dr. Rogers? “It's also not right to say that Dr. Rogers may have known about it.” Knowing Dr. Rogers, I’m sure he did NOT know anything about this, but how do you know? Can you back up this statement with facts and credible sources or are you speculating?
WWJD: I highly doubt that Jesus would be blogging any of this. He would be looking for ways to heal hurting hearts. Sin is sin, whether it’s committing the “alleged sin” speculated in this blog column, or viciously repeating gossip.
We are so quick to share our opinions and correct those who have supposedly wronged us. But how much time have we spent in prayer about these matters? I’m convinced that if each of us would turn our blogging time into prayer time, the counter at the bottom of this website would stop turning and we would see the Holy Spirit at work, not only at BBC, but in OUR lives as well.
This website and especially this blog have fostered some very unhealthy attitudes. So many of you are casting stones at the leadership at BBC. In some cases, it is merited. But why not step back and look in the mirror?
I think some of you men need to be there when SG pulls into his parking place at BBC in the morning, and tell him we want answers and action!
Sounds like what started all this doesn't it?
Benjamin Gates,
Your attitude makes me sick. The leadership that you are supporting better pray that no more victims come forward!!
Ben Gates, I understand what you are saying.
BG,
Two things: 1) I can back up the fact that Dr Rogers didn't know with proof. The only problem is that I'm sworn to confidentiality on it. I will stake my name on the fact that Dr Rogers didn't know. Neither my name nor my word may mean anything to you, but I only put them on the line knowing beyond doubt, from means I can't reveal, that he did not know.
2) This idea that we should stop speaking out and dedicate that time to prayer is misguided I'm afraid. The "we'll just let God handle it" approach gets lots of play. But then I think of things like the abolition of slavery and freedom from tyranny. Just sitting on their hands didn't do too much for folks there--they had to speak, fight, suffer, and persevere. God made us to do His will, not pray that others do it while we stay silent.
Josh
Benjamin Gates,
This blog would not exist if Gaines did not hide behind Communication Committees and constantly allow others to fall on their swords for him.
The church has admitted to the facts concerned here. So far as hurting hearts go, how concerned was the leadership that there be an investigation to determine if there were more "hurting hearts" out there until this blog made this matter public?
How concerned was the leadership to protect the children of Bellevue for the many weeks this was known by Gaines and other ministers?
I agree we should pray, and I say that we should also act to stop pedophiles and to hold leadership accountable.
Light and salt were needed for this to have any hope of healing. Truth does not fear light.
The unhealthy attitudes here are due to broken hearts over the fact that the leadership of Bellevue wants to keep the sheep that follow without question and stonewall the others until they leave. imo
Benjamin Gates,I think I see your point.
1-Never question anyone in leadership.No matter what they do.
2-Crimes commited by the clergy should not be reported and should be kept hidden by other memders of the clergy.
3-Jesus would approve of not reporting this crime and keeping it hidden from the members of this church.
4-Members of this church especially those of us with children have no right to know that a child molester is on the BBC staff.
5-Attack those who bring the truth as evil.
6-Drag someone with integrity into this scandel so you can excuse those without integrity, who allowed this travesity to be hidden.
I think I understand you.
I just wonder why you are not bothered about a sexual pervert in the ministry of our church, or will you remain angry at those who made it known.
Trucker,
Amen.
Benjamin & maybe,
Suppose I had an abortion, repented and the Lord forgave me. My sin would be "under the blood", forgiven and no one the wiser but me and God. That would be well and fine and I could continue my life as if nothing happened.
The Lord would deal with me and the sin and cast the sin as far as the east is from the west, which is what you are saying we should allow to happen, and I agree with that scripturally as well as it is my personal belief. What I do not understand by your posts is your opinion of the earthly consequenses of the sin - the aborted child - it is still dead - there lies my dilema in understanding your position in this matter??? No where in scripture does God allow sin, cover it up or say that there is no earthly consequence. Instead, He will allow time for truth, repentance and healing, but there is always earthly consequence. However, if God deals with sin because we do not, it is public and the consequence is greater. Why is this any different than the way God handles it as shown in scripture? No one here outted these men, their own flesh and blood did. Their pain is great. You cannot justify your position or that of our leadership, who have known about these things and have not even told the deacons what was going on. They are still controlling, spinning and covering sin for a select group of men.
It looks to me like the Lord has said: "Time is up".
bg wrote:
"I’m disappointed that you’re showing restraint until the facts are actually in."
Then continue to be disappointed because that's the way it's going to be here. If you don't like the rules, don't read or post here.
"Plus, did I read correctly that you’re issuing a pass to Dr. Rogers? 'It's also not right to say that Dr. Rogers may have known about it.' Knowing Dr. Rogers, I’m sure he did NOT know anything about this, but how do you know? Can you back up this statement with facts and credible sources or are you speculating?"
Yes, I can. Like Josh's, my source is extremely credible but is also confidential. I guess you'll have to continue to be disappointed because that's the way it is.
NBBCOF
ezekiel
AMEN
Ok, so we're not naming names for the sake of the family and the victim, or at least not here in a forum open to the whole world.
What is the proper way to stand in this matter? Call the staff? Write letters? Tell your deacon friends? All of the above?
It's not loving OR forgiving to forego all consequences and allow a minister to keep his authority and position. I particularly would like to hear Sister Pam's counsel in this matter. Her words have been full of grace and truth.
And what do we tell the children?
Grieved
Think we will shay home today. There is no way I can sit under him today,watching him ignore what is going on and preaching a selfserving sermon.While the supporters give standing ovations.
Proverbs 14:5-12
5 A faithful witness will not lie: but a false witness will utter lies.
6 A scorner seeketh wisdom, and findeth it not: but knowledge is easy unto him that understandeth.
7 Go from the presence of a foolish man, when thou perceivest not in him the lips of knowledge.
8 The wisdom of the prudent is to understand his way: but the folly of fools is deceit.
9 Fools make a mock at sin: but among the righteous there is favor.
10 The heart knoweth his own bitterness; and a stranger doth not intermeddle with his joy.
11 The house of the wicked shall be overthrown: but the tabernacle of the upright shall flourish.
12 There is a way which seemeth right unto a man; but the end thereof are the ways of death.
This is the Word of God.
This is the Promise of God.
How important is truth to God?
Jesus said, "I am the Truth." John 14:6
Tim,
I have tears in my eyes after reading your post. I was bearing a weight, a burden, after the events that occurred this week,the grief over the leadership's failure to act, the pain of knowing what happened at the hands of a man I personally know and had admired. Even thought I had searched the scriptures and prayed for an end to the grief, the Lord waited until this moment to bring this scripture to me and I thank you for sharing it. It is a breath of fresh air, joyous and comforting, to be reminded of the omnipotent presence of the TRUTH!
BR,
I remember getting reports about multiple sunday school teachers condemning those engaging in backbiting against the pastor. Those reports were coming in months ago. Aparently nothing has changed, well at least not for the better.
You know, we changed Sunday School to Bible Study Fellowship a few years ago. I think we should change it again to the Ministry of Truth--MiniTrue. (If this makes no sense, then Google "minitrue and 1984.")
Best,
Josh
Unfortunately I've got a house full of sick kids (and it's my middle child's birthday), so I'm not at church this morning. I'm watching online waiting on someone to address this crisis. However, I'm not holding my breath. I bet they ignore this week's events. I hope I'm wrong, but my expectations are really low.
What do you think?
OK...Before any goes off on me, let me say I feel horrible about all of this. I feel extremely sorry for the victim. With that said, there are some of you on here that obviously know a lot more than I do and may have first hand info. I do not know all of the facts. This is why I am respectfully asking the following questions. I am trying to be objective and make sure I have done my part of thinking this thru before I come to any conclusion on what action to take. #1- Has anyone talked to the victim? #2- Exactly when did this confrontation take place? #3- Who was the witness, is he or she credible & has this person verified the incident? #4- What exactly did the minister "confess" to? #5- Why did the confrontation come now? The victim has children himself that have been around the minister for years.Did something else happen and why would allow your kids around someone who molested you? #6-Is it possible that the victim does not want the police involved and the leadership was responding to the victims wishes? #7- Is it possible the leadership has questions about the allegations and just do not want to "hang a man" before they have all of the facts? Trust me, I am not standing up for anyone here. Or attacking the victim. I jut would like answers to these questions and I assume some of you already know them and that is why you can be so definite about what needs to happen. Also, doesn't the church have some sort of policy about atleast 2 people in the nursery, etc. Would that make anyone breathe a little?
God help us! Gaines is likening Mary to the staff member! He's talking about how Joseph had no desire to lead her out and embarass her. He's saying the pharisees do that sort of thing!
Gaines has NO SHAME. None. This is self-serving, disrespectful to Christ and to Mary, and an abomination to God's sensabilities about sin.
I'm livid here!
Josh, WTN,
I am watching online as well and I cannot help but notice the "emphasis" on the "grace" of Joseph, not wanting to "disgrace" Mary publiclly.."emphasis on 'disgrace'...since he was a "righteous man" - just like Gaines would do???. No desire to publicly humiliate her - I may be overly suspicious of his motives, but this seems very obviously self serving to me??
I am staying home today from church because I cannot support a pastor that fails to act on ministers committing pedophilia. If I had woke up on time, I was going to go visit Faith Baptist and possibly move my membership there as well. I cannot listen to a Gaines sermon without questioning the motive of the sermon.
Lynn
Please do not move your membership yet. If we can bring this to a vote, we will need yours! There was a shout down at a BFC class meeting between those who support Gaines and those who support Scriptural Truth. Please attend where you need to attend to be fed, and if you wish, give your tithe to where you are being fed (the storehouse), but please wait until we can resolve this matter!
Custos, MOM4,
There is no other way to see it!
The man I see today is, once again, an actor on a stage, a campaign spokesman.
He is trying his best to be perceived as humble and meek, but I sense a man who is seething.
Custos,
I agree! I had an "encounter" with this man about this time last year. He has a very dark side! I posted on it earlier in this mess! He is not what he seems! I will not be surprised if the Lord strikes him from the pulpit!
They cut the broadcast off!
Well, I have never seen the stream cut off so rapidly!! I guess he does not want us tuning in to the "rest of the story".
Let's just hope some of our truthseeking pals are at BBC and not GBC so we can get an honest report.
I agree! We are getting ready to tune in to Dr Rogers so we can hear the truth from God's Holy Word. At this time in the life of our church, we are not getting fed truth of any kind!
I recently started watching LWF's video podcast through lightsource.com. It is amazing how much I get from Dr. Rogers' sermons the second time around.
I know! He lives on in our lives. I am so thankful for the legacy he has left us. I am glad that LWF has control of these messages, because I am afraid that Steve Gaines would have attempted to destroy even that!
Pinker,
Unfortunately, Gaines and his henchmen have managed to quiet this issue for now, but fear not, the day is coming, perhaps today, when this will be very public and will further disgrace Bellevue. All of this because of Steve Gaines and the rest of the leadership's ability to deceive the weaker members of the conregation. I am praying that their eyes will be opened, unfortunately, even when it goes public, they will blame it on the "bloggers" and not lay it at the feet of those who are responsible!
westtnbarrister said...
I recently started watching LWF's video podcast through lightsource.com. It is amazing how much I get from Dr. Rogers' sermons the second time around.
West I agree. Did you listen to the sermon about not being a disgrace to grace?
Does anyone know the answers to my questions in my 9:49am post? Also, can criminal charges be brought against someone if the victim refuses to testify and there is no other "proof"? I am not saying this is the case here but just curious if any of you have legal insight here. Thanks!
Well, y'all missed "it" if you stayed home this morning. Following the invitation, Steve Gaines announced that Bryan Miller was going to read a prepared statement. I'm going to see if it's streamed with the 11:00 service, but I doubt it. The statement, as I recall, mentioned Paul Williams by name and explained that a moral indiscretion from 17 years ago had just come to light and that he was in Christian counseling but would be taking a leave of absence for the time being. So he hasn't been permanently relieved of his duties.
Steve Gaines then explained that he met with PW and his family back in June, and that PW confessed this "sin" at that time. He said he was in counseling and that nothing had happened since. So SG said he had honored the confidentiality of their meeting.
He went on to say that in the past couple of weeks it's become apparent to him that not all family members are satisfied, and acting upon the advice of legal consultants, that he can no longer maintain their confidentiality. He did not say authorities had been notified or that there was any investigation being conducted.
So there you have it. I'm really surprised he said anything at all, but I guess the heat was getting too hot. He never mentioned the nature of this "moral indiscretion," so I'm sure a lot of people had no idea what he was talking about. I think he did say something about it being something "in his family," but that probably went over a lot of heads, too.
NASS
Our Catholic friends would go ballistic over the use of Mary to make things easier on a pedophile. We should be hardly less angered. Though we don't believe she was sinless, divine, etc.; we can tell from Scripture that she was a most innocent woman. How dare this leader of a religious junta make anything that looks remotely like a comparison between that sweet, precious girl and this perverted sicko.
This yields the question: who's the sicker? The man who molests children, or the man who compares that molester to the most innocent of all beings?
And the dark clouds gather . . .
Thank you Nass, I was waiting to post this until I knew what had
And then after that same holier-than-thou charlatan tells good men to leave, he preaches on the grace that should be shown to an admitted child-molester from the pulpit--that he shouldn't be paraded before the "Pharisees" (for those of you who don't speak NAMBLA (google it), that translates to "those who want to see sin dealt with and restoration accomplished). And this advocate for Pedophiliac Grace does all this behind the same holy desk that Rogers and Lee preached from. How DARE he.
May the fire of God fall swiftly.
Believers at Bellevue, when will you see the light? What will it take? Will your child have to be molested and then the act dismissed as being “under the blood” and the pedophile protected because of some perverted, rancid disfiguration of Grace? Gaines allowed the man to stay in a position of authority after he found out about this! How many compromises of holiness will it take for you people to stand up? Stand! For the love of God, stand!
NASS said....
"He went on to say that in the past couple of weeks it's become apparent to him that not all family members are satisfied, and acting upon the advice of legal consultants, that he can no longer maintain their confidentiality. He did not say authorities had been notified or that there was any investigation being conducted."
Since legal counsel (Atty Bruce Brooke?) has advised that he (Gaines) can no longer maintain the family's confidentiality, does that mean that the son has given him permission to release names? If that is the case, David Brown must come forth with what he knows - TODAY!
Steve Gaines also commented that the minister told him nothing had happened since 17 years ago. How can he know this for certain? I hope that's the case, but how could he possibly take a chance on that by keeping a confessed child molester on staff for six months after he found out about it?
I am curious. How many standing "O"'s SG get today?I did try listen to the web castbut couldn't take it after about 5 minutes.My wife did listen to the rest of it and agreed with all of you on the summunation of SG's talk.(I refuse to call it a sermon)
This guy is unbeliveable The Clintons better hope thar SG dosen't run for prez.He makes them look like amatures,
HERE IS TODAY'S DEVOTIONAL FROM LWF MINISTRIESHERE IS TODAY'S DEVOTIONAL FROM LWF MINISTRIES.
Daily Devotional from Love Worth Finding Ministries
DECEMBER 17
BIBLE MEDITATION:
"And He shall bring forth thy righteousness as the light, and thy judgment as the noonday."
Psalm 37:6
DEVOTIONAL TREASURE:
One preacher was in a church where he felt God had led him. But nothing seemed to work out, so he wanted to go to another church. He told a friend, "I know where God put me and I know God put me here, but I just wonder if He remembers where He put me." Yes, God remembers! He has not forgotten. He is never late. Don't rush God. Don't think He has abandoned you because your prayers are not answered. He will turn your midnight into a sunrise and your mourning into dancing.
ACTION POINT:
Read Psalm 37:4-7 and rejoice in the hope of God's providence and provision in your life.
Trucker et al,
Years ago a minister at Bellevue had an affair. Dr Rogers forced the minister before the congregation and talked to him so harshly. In no uncertain terms he put the man in his place and condemned the sin.
When he had finished, the congregation applauded. Dr Rogers turned to the crowd and told them to be quiet, that this was a very serious thing.
Gaines this morning took applause as he talked about the marvels of grace for Mary and pedophiles.
I'd rather have sat in a room filled with vomit than that "sanctuary" this morning. How defiled the church is!
The dear little lady sitting by me slept through most of that sermon, and every time he yelled her hearing aid would whistle.
And since when does being "in Christian counseling" mean that pedophiles are no longer a danger? Somebody tell me when that became a law of the universe!
This perverted pastor has NO SHAME! To endanger our children and women because his filthy administration can't use another scandal. So what does he do? He leaves a known child molester in our midst. He puts our children on the line because of his pride, arrogance, and escapades.
Whitewashed Sepulchre! He has the appearance of substance, good, and wisdom, but when you get up close you realize that he is vacuous and vile. Brooding viper! He threatens those who ask for truth, and defends those who exploit the helpless.
Unclean liar and insidious protector of perverts!
nbbcof said
Steve Gaines also commented that the minister told him nothing had happened since 17 years ago. How can he know this for certain? I hope that's the case, but how could he possibly take a chance on that by keeping a confessed child molester on staff for six months after he found out about it?
You are correct, but if you listened closely he in effect said that in the last two weeks he had been made aware that perhaps something had happened since 17 years ago.
Still, you would have thought that the Pastor would have at least encouraged 'him' to quietly retire or resign back in June.
It was clear that the Pastor was broken over these things this morning. He did not stand during the singing, but sat there with an open Bible. During this sermon, his lips were saying on thing, but his face said another. I don't know if anyone noticed, but Jamie Parker was wiping away tears as he turned back to the choir after the song service.
I'm just saying we should let some time pass for these things to work out, and lay off the full court press on the Pastor.
That's not to say there aren't some answers needed, but he was right this morning. We've been shown great mercy by the Father at salvation. We can afford to show a little here.
(FG-very heartbroken for our church this morning)
The prepared statement contradicts the official BBC position given to David Brown on Friday.
SG shamelessly dodged David Brown for several days before finally having a spokesman (I will let David Brown identify the spokesman) call him. The spokesman told him this had only come to light a "week and a half ago."
Folks, this is outrageous! I feel for this man, but the fact he was not yet fired in June defies comprehension.
In the new "anything goes" Bellevue, am I to assume deacons may be drinkers, fornicators, liars, and thieves? If not, we have higher standards for our deacons than for our ministerial staff!
I have been upset with our leadership for months, but nothing compares to the colosally poor judgment exercised in this particular matter. As a parent I feel betrayed. As a church member I am so sad that Bellevue has come to this. As a Christian I am offended our leaders take the biblical standards for ministers so lightly.
I miss Dr. Rogers, but I am glad he is not here to see his church turning its back on the clear mandates of Scripture in so many areas.
Fellow saints: A leave of absence is not enough and I told the Belevue spokesperson that when I talked with him on Friday.
Please join with me and demand this man be removed from the ministry immediately. Trust me I will have much more to say later.
And please let me make this point. I know many of you have issues with Dr. Gaines over other matters. I do not care about any of that and I do not want my campaign to get to the truth associated with this abuse issue. I have always been for the victim and protecting our children.
Please do not pile this other stuff on this ONE issue. I beg all to be in serious prayer and to DEMAND THE IMMEDIATE REMOVAL OF THIS MAN.
I will wait and see what happens next. I do commend Dr. Gaines for addressing this issue. But if it weren't for this blog, I doubt anything would have happened.
For the record when I first heard of this over a week ago, I call the DCS and reported it. However, it was not until I had learned the name of the minister and passed it on to the investigator could an investigation be done by the right people. No I do not know the outcome of the investigation and I will not. They keep this very confidential.
Please be in prayer. NASS I know people are really going to want to know more and really there is not much more out there. I would like to propose we stop comments for 24 hours one day this week and we spend that time in prayer for everyone. How about it?
custos,
I feel you, but remember, God's in control. "The Holy Trinity never meets in emergency session"-(Adrian Rogers). The time for righteous anger may yet be before us, but today, this morning, it is a time to grieve for our church. There were many tears being shed in the hallways after the service this morning, and there will be more. This is going to be a hard thing for many people to accept, due to the relationship many people have had with that minister and his family over the years.
Give the church some time to grieve and heal before you start swinging.
I have one other favor. And I need your help. I have been trying to reack out to this victiim. I dearly want to talk to him and let him know from another victim it is ok to hurt and that he has started on his road from being a victim to being a survivor. My contact information is on my profile. Thanks once again,
wtb,
Indeed, there is a distubing pattern of what can only charitably be called poor judgment, but let's just grieve this morning for our fallen brother. The time for questions will come soon enough
New BBC Open Forum said.
Steve Gaines then explained that he met with PW and his family back in June, and that PW confessed this "sin" at that time. He said he was in counseling and that nothing had happened since. So SG said he had honored the confidentiality of their meeting.
AND HE DID NOTHING FOR SIX MONTHS!!!!! THis guy is totally and completely morally bankrupt, and those of you who defend this inaction for six months have the same lack of morals.ACE, HISSERVENT ,CALCOATE,MAYBEJUSTMAYBE,MEMPHIS,PASTOR and all other defenders of SG don't even try to defend this. Instead get on your knees and ask God's forgiveness for defending a man who hides and excuses one "who harms the least of thee"
Now I know why he stockpiled the $30 mil.
Just wait until the lawsuits come out we will hear some really convoluted talks from the pulpit.
Just as Bryan Miller stepped up to the pulpit in the 11:00 a.m. service, they killed the internet feed. I'd like to know if anyone recorded the end of the 9:30 or 11:00 service live. It probably won't be included on the audio that will likely be posted on the website tomorrow either. I'd really like to obtain a recording of Bryan Miller's and Steve Gaines' statements. If you have this, please write to the e-mail address in the profile.
Thanks,
NBBCOF
You guys were complaining over the past few days about this issue and how no-one at Bellevue will address it. You complain that Gaines is going to censor this issue and not even acknowledge it and lo and behold you were wrong.
You complain that actions need to be taken. A start was made today while the situation is under investigation and you guys are still complaining.
I will say this for now: You guys are unbelieveable and pathetic. You are unpleaseable and you are ridiculous. It's time to grow up, folks.
Everyone calm down. When SG said that he had known since June, a man in front of me put his hands to his face and in a stage whisper exclaimed "WHAT?!" w This has open a lot of eyes, let's not let people's first impression of this forum be a hanging party.
YES I AM ANGRY!! WHAT IS NEXT-" TRIPS TO THE CASINO WITH PASTOR STEVE- HOW TO REACH OUT TO GAMBLERS AND HAVE FUN DOING IT"
WHAT IS THE NEXT SCANDLE GOING TO BE????
One more thing. People like trucker who are commenting on the statements today have to right to talk at all. You were not there so you don't know what was said. So do us a favor and hush.
David Brown,
I thank you for your ministry and your words to us on this terrible day in the history of our church. I understand your need to keep this focus on the issue that is on your heart and I appreciate your recognition of the importance that the blog has brought, the sheddng of light on the sin. We will most certainly try to honor your request, but please be aware, that this same Steve Gaines has personally destroyed the credibility and honor of our church long before the present scandal came to light. He is involved in this just as much as if he had commited the act himself - to him who knows to do right and does not do it, is just as guilty. The sermon this morning was just as self serving and unholy as the act that was committed. The Lord has removed the hedge of protection from our church that was nourished by the integrty of Dr Adrian Rogers. I miss him and the Word HE preached. We no longer hear an honest man with an honest message from the Holy Word of God.
Ace,
While i partially agree with you, you completely misunderstand the lack of trust there is between the pastor and the congregation at the moment.
Unfortunatly, it has taken these websites to force the church to act on a number of issues. And the question of "what did the Pastor know, and when did he know it" is a legitmate one. This is a VERY serious issue, and should have been dealt with six months ago. Many would call it "pathetic" and "unbelievable" that it had not been dealt with at that time.
ace said
You complain that actions need to be taken. A start was made today while the situation is under investigation and you guys are still complaining.
Question for you. Has the investigation been going on for six months?
Financeguy,
I understand where you are coming from and I can respect that, but I feel differently. There are no questions that need to be asked to know what must be done. Sure, we still have many questions, but all we need to know is that an admitted child molester works on staff at Bellevue. This says so much about the pastor. Mark Sharpe cannot serve as a deacon because he dared to seek openness and he asked too many questions. But the pastor has allowed a CHILD MOLESTER to remain on staff.
I want to know how many people he has counseled since June who were victims of any kind of sexual crime? Everyone should reread Kickedinthegut's statements from Friday (1:31 and 2:25). Read the questions PW asked of that child molestation victim. If anyone thought I was angry before, I am on an entirely new level today.
While I was in law school I worked for an attorney who defended a man in his forties accused of molesting a young teenage girl. The accused admitted what he had done to his attorney (he had little choice because he was caught by the girl's mother)and swore, I mean swore, he had only done it that one time to that one girl. Before his case went to trial another victim came forward because she was pregnant. When he was confronted he had the audacity to claim she had "wanted it." I believe she was 13!
We can forgive these people as Christians and we can show them love. I truly feel for them because they must live a tortured existence. But we can never accept their word about their crimes. Anyone who does so is naively endangering others.
FinanceGuy said... what did the Pastor know, and when did he know it" is a legitmate one. This is a VERY serious issue, and should have been dealt with six months ago. Many would call it "pathetic" and "unbelievable" that it had not been dealt with at that time.
Especially those of us who are parents. If ace considers me to be pathetic because I am outraged that my children were in danger and the pastor knew of this for six months and did NOTHING about it then so be it.When he has children one day he may regret his words today.
Also note, as usual, Steve Gaines had someone else out in front when it came time to address this issue today (Bryan Miller).
Did Steve Gaines get counsel on how he should legally or morally handle this 6 months ago? Or, did he do as he thought wise in his own eyes.
Ace,
I am happy they addressed the situation, but I find the statement woefully lacking.
Instead of calling those of us who are upset pathetic, I challenge you to make a biblical case for allowing an admitted child molester to be in the ministry at Bellevue Baptist Church. This is an open book test, so feel free to spend some time in the library researching your answer. Please seek help from the pastor or any one else who can help you. I lack your knowledge and enlightened view of Scripture. I truly want to understand the biblical justification for this.
For all the speculation of who spoke to me from Bellevue is was David Coombs. And he did tell me that they became aware of "about a week and half ago." That is certainly different from June isn't it?
ace wrote:
"You complain that Gaines is going to censor this issue and not even acknowledge it and lo and behold you were wrong."
Well, he did censor it -- for six months. I admit I was wrong when I stated last night I didn't believe SG would say anything about this today. Would he have ever said anything if certain people hadn't applied the heat? Why has he chosen to speak out now? By his own admission, he's known about this for six months! I was under the impression it had been known for only a few weeks to maybe a couple of months, but he's been sitting on this since June!
If my being angry about the way this was handled (or not handled) makes me pathetic, then call me pathetic. I'll wear the label proudly!
NASS
Woe to those who call evil good and good evil, who put darkness for light and light for darkness, who put bitter for sweet and sweet for bitter.
Once again we've been treated to a sermon used to set up an address of a problem at BBC. When will this kind of tactic end? When will leadership simply deal with real issues in a real way instead of a politically motivated and manipulative way. The issue is not one of forgiveness..it's one of dealing in transparency and purity. How can a church be kept pure and it's membership and leaders kept accountable if we deal with sin in this way. Should we forgive?....of course...we are commanded to..but there are real consequences to sin..the Bible is quite clear on that..because of Moses' sin...he could not enter the promised land..because of David's sin...the sword never left his house..because he was a man of blood..he could not build a temple for the Lord...Paul commanded the church at Corinth to expel the immoral brother...do we have the right to contravene the teachings of scripture?...I think not. I feel for this family...we've all failed...but that does not remove the consequences..scripture is replete with that fact. Before anyone starts going off on me as being "unpleaseable", this isn't a matter of pleasing me or anyone else...it's a matter of being obedient to God's commands revealed in scripture.
david brown said
For all the speculation of who spoke to me from Bellevue is was David Coombs. And he did tell me that they became aware of "about a week and half ago." That is certainly different from June isn't it?
Maybe David Coombs only found out a week and a half ago. Still hard to swallow, and he probably was trying to lead you to believe that "they" included the Pastor.
Amen AOG!
Allofgrace,
You know the Bible, can you make a reasonable biblical argument in support of allowing a child molester to serve on staff at Bellevue?
Did the Catholic church ever make a biblical argument for their decision to cover-up the molestation of priests? If yes, what was it?
Also, do you believe the term "moral indiscretion" is suitable? I see it as a term designed to minimize this sin.
WTB,
I am not aware of any Biblical mandate for restoring a minister to his former position after that kind of fall...restored to fellowship..yes...and that should be worked toward...the goal of church discipline is always restoration to fellowship...but the Biblical record as I just posted earlier...shows that God takes all sin seriously...and the sin of leaders especially...Moses, after leading the Israelites for 40 yrs in the desert forfeited the right to enter the promised land because of his disobedience...David...forfeited building the temple as well as losing the son conceived in adultery. Sin costs..always.
WTB,
"Moral indiscretion" is a classic example of contemporary newspeak. It's two words used instead of one. And the one word is far more specific than the two new ones. It's a term designed to obscure, not illuminate. Of course, you already know this, but I thought spelling it wouldn't be a bad idea.
Best,
Josh
using "moral indiscretion" or "moral failure" to describe the sin....well..personally I would not want to sit through a detailed description of the exact acts...but at the same time I think there's a tendency to minimize the seriousness of sin...I honestly think just as society itself has become desensitized to sin...so has the church in many ways.
AOG,
We are in agreement. We can't find an argument because there isn't one to be made.
I cannot help but wonder where the media has been thru all of this? Ever since the last article on the savingbellevue website, the media has been silent. I wonder if they have been silenced by the powerful leadership - money talks you know.
I wonder if the parents of children at Bellevue would be outraged if they knew that this particular sin had been condoned and covered up to allow this minister to remain on staff for 6 months after the authorities should have been notified. Steve Gaines is only thinking of himself and protecting his position. I just talked to my sister out of state, she is a professonal in the medical missionary field. She said that Gaines should be fired on the spot for covering up illegal activity, not to mention the sin.
I doubt that will happen, given he carries such clout in the wealthy communities.
At what point will doing what is right in God's eyes outweigh doing what is best to protect the interests of the wealthy leadership.
To minimize sin..with words or acts..is to degrade the high cost of redemption. Our sins were imputed to the only innocent One who ever lived, who endured the full fury of God's wrath against sin...to make light of that sin is to trample that royal innocent blood underfoot...plain and simple.
It appears that the fox is once again loose in the hen house!
I wouldn't spend time communication with him or answering any of his deliberate misguided and stabbing statements. If he is ignored, there is always a possiblity he will go away.
It's pretty clear that this web site is responsible for bringing all these lies and injustices out in the open. There would have been nothing done had it not been "caught you again"! How do we know this for certain? Because it is six months late in coming.
david brown wrote:
"For all the speculation of who spoke to me from Bellevue is was David Coombs. And he did tell me that they became aware of "about a week and half ago." That is certainly different from June isn't it?"
Yes, just a little. Thank you for ending speculation about that, David. I've known the name for over two weeks and I'm nobody. My source knew about it for nearly a week before that, so if David Coombs knew about it only a week and a half, then he certainly was out of the loop. Wow.
Since when has counseling become acceptable for such a horrendus act. They may have just know about it 1 1/2 weeks ago, but thats still too long to do anything. They (Gaines and his goons) should have contacted the authorities, which to my knowledge (and if anyone else knows otherwise, feel free to correct me)they have not done. In Essence, as I have said before, Gaines and his goons are harboring a criminal, which is a criminal act in itself.
Mom4 said:
I cannot help but wonder where the media has been thru all of this? Ever since the last article on the savingbellevue website, the media has been silent. I wonder if they have been silenced by the powerful leadership - money talks you know.
Response:
I have thought about calling Andy Wise to see if he can shine the light on this.
koragg,
Gaines new about it SIX (6) months ago! And he did not report it!
MOM4 said...
koragg,
Gaines new about it SIX (6) months ago! And he did not report it!
Sorry, I must have misread it. I got confused as to who know what when.
But either way, the police should have been notified. I would suggest calling Andy Wise and Fox 13 and really crank up the pressure on Gaines. It seems like thats the only way Gaines is going to do anything if at all.
I've posted this before, but it might be an explanation for why we're not seeing the media in all this. I was told two months ago that some Bellevue members informed the editors of the Commercial Appeal that if they dared publish any more articles or letters to the editor regarding Bellevue that they would cancel their subscriptions to the paper. I got the impression at least some of the threat might have come directly from the church leadership, but I don't know that. The writers of the CA articles didn't get all their facts exactly right, but I don't think anything they wrote could be interpreted as libelous or patently false either.
I was strongly reminded of an article I came across over a year ago, long before I knew about the situation at Bellevue, which told of how Steve Gaines, when he was at Gardendale, and several other "prominent" people in Gardendale, managed to pressure local merchants to stop letting a free weekly newspaper be distributed from their places of business. You can read about it here.
I know nothing about the content of the Birmingham Weekly beyond what's on their website. I don't agree with all the opinions I read there, but I don't agree with much of what I read in the CA either. Unfortunately, the CA is the only major newspaper in town, so until things get a lot worse, I'm not cancelling my subscription. The Birmingham Weekly's site is here.
What really struck me about that situation though was that it sounded so much like what's happening at Bellevue now with "church officials'" strong-arm tactics and their pressuring others to do their dirty work.
From the article: "No one [from the churches] complained to us directly, but all our distributors in Gardendale were saying the same thing: Some ministers in town were telling the businesses with our boxes that the Weekly was a danger to their children and the community, and if they didn't get rid of them their businesses would be boycotted."
Gardendale businesses were also pressured by public officials. Police Chief Wallace Campbell told Spencer that the mayor had instructed him to call a local business owner: "I contacted the owner of [a shopping center where there was a Weekly newsrack] and told him that the mayor's office had a complaint about the free publication being available to minor children."
(Apparently the newspaper contained an advertisement for a phone sex company, and someone's 10-year-old kid called it.)
Notice the statement... "no one from the churches complained to us directly... " but the business owners certainly got the message, didn't they?
Of course, i2Memphis has been advertised in a similar Memphis paper, but I suppose that's different -- somehow.
NASS
Koragg,
Please know that I am speaking as a mother and I find Gaines' inaction inexcusable and most probably illegal. He would still not have said a word had he not been forced into it and even then, he prefaced it with a sermon tying the guilty minister to Mary, who was INNOCENT of any wrongdoing. The man has no conscience of anything but his personal position amongst the hierchy of BBC/SBC and the monetary gain he can accumulate. We have been preaching to the choir all these months and the true Steve Gaines is finally being revealed more and more as the Lord peels the layers off one at a time. The man is as close to Judas Iscariot as any one I have ever heard of.
youwillknowthem,
I believe his decision extends beyond BBC morally, but I don't know about legally. I know enough about the laws in this area to be dangerous, which means I am far from an expert. Plus, there are too many unknown facts. For instance, did BBC alert the authorities in June? Did someone at BBC learn of this before SG learned of it in June? If yes, did they notify authorities at that time? Did the molestation occur in Tennessee or Florida? These are just a few questions that have a bearing on liability, at least as I see it.
I believe anyone counseled by PW, such as kickedinthegut, has a potential lawsuit if they are so inclined. How many years has he served in that capacity? How many sex crime victims has he counseled?
If his crime was indeed known by church officials seventeen years ago, any BBC child harmed by PW would have legal grounds to sue. Also, if BBC knew it 17 years ago and failed to notify the authorities, I believe anyone molested, whether a BBC member or not, has a potential lawsuit.
Those are my initial thoughts, but again, I am not an expert in this area.
WTN,
Whether you are an expert in the field or not, I think you have hit the nail on the head. We as a church are liable and the inaction of Steve Gaines will cost us dearly. We have lost our reputation that Dr Rogers and his impecable integrity had built, unfortunately, we have apparently been riding the coattails of Dr Rogers or we would have been more suspect of our search committee and the leadership who has betrayed our trust. This is just the tip of the iceberg. I urge David Brown to hold a news conference to bring out the facts before the service tonight. Steve Gaines has had his chance to put his personal spin on this, it is time for him to face the cold hard facts.
so, if you blog or or have legitimate concerns about shenanigans going on at church, you are a 'troublemaker', and are labeled an adversary in sg's sermons; 'these', he says, should be avoided and/or rebuked...but one who has raped his own child is only guilty of a 'moral indiscretion', and should be shown much grace and receive proper 'christian counseling'.
heaven help us!
where is the righteous anger over this perversion of nature that he had over 'website' fodder?
brokenness?? yeah, I would be sick too if all this garbage was swirling around my head, but SG displaying brokeness, I think not
his doublemindedness and lopsided perception of sin condemns him on the spot
John 18:38 Pilate saith unto him, What is truth?
Pilate washed his hands of truth, but they were still stained with blood.
Herod placed the burden of truth on someone else, but he was still responsible.
The leaders of the church cried out to suppress the truth, but it was still revealed.
The crowds were motivated to compromise the truth, but it was without blemish.
The soldiers were commanded to execute judgment against the truth, but righteousness prevailed.
This is the question that has perplexed our leaders for months. This is the question that the Communication Committee could not answer. This is the question that has not been responded to from the pulpit.
What truth was told?
Was there a washing of hands?
Yes
Was there a transfer of the burden of truth?
Yes
Was there a suppression of truth?
Yes
Was there a compromise of truth?
Yes
Was there an unjust judgment against truth?
Yes
So we have received the response of Pilate, Herod, the Pharisees, the crowd and the Roman soldiers. All within a single service.
'only GOD knows a man's heart'
SG, on several occasions before the congregation (in the pulpit)has deliberately attempted to show what is in his heart, (his own words, this is from my heart) and each time is more telling than the last
tim- excellent point...all in one service
Reading all this raises questions:
[1] Was the confession to Pastor Gaines 6 months ago the first time this sin had been confessed?
[2] If yes, why had he delayed the confession for so long? Why had he not surfaced the conflict of interest when he was asked to interview worker applicants who had abuse in their past?
[3] If yes, how long has the counseling been going on? If it is recent, what triggered it?
[4] If no, who at the church was aware of this sin? Why was he allowed to remain and especially why did he interview potential children's workers?
[5] If he would abuse his own child why would one conclude the children of others are less vulnerable?
[6] Even if the family said this was no longer an active problem, why conclude that the same behaviors were not occurring outside the family (i.e with church kids or other venues)?
Clergy confidentiality may allow a pastor not to report an incident (I do not know Tennessee law) but why would such a person be allowed to remain in a ministry position.
Having browsed here for weeks I have sought to remain objective; but as a pastor of 25 years, I can not understand why one would be retained in ministry under such circumstances.
I can not see why this was not treated as an intensely important issue requiring immediate action for the sake of the cause of Christ. Grace does not override guarding the flock while hiding potential danger from parents.
My motto for years has been, "Do the right things, in the right way, for the right reasons... and then let the chips fall where they may."
Intensifying my intercession for the saints at Bellevue.
Dr. Steve J.
The minister's name and photo have just been removed from Bellevue's website in the past 24 hours. I had captured a screen shot of that page Friday and checked it again yesterday, and they were still there.
NASS
bus drivers and substitute teachers cannot hold their respective jobs if they have done what this minister has done; yet he is not fired, but handled with kid gloves...what does administrative leave mean? there is no 'christian counseling' for this...the children of GOD do not sodomize their children!! this is not some slip, this is an act of a child of satan!!
if a man cannot be trusted in little things, isn't it clear he will mishandle the bigger things?
sg does not know what he's doing!
this isn't fence-jumping, or dream-having, or tongue-in-cheeking it at another church, or using the credit card wrong, or brow beating members, then lying about it...
he may not be the only problem, but he certainly isn't the one to lead a church through one such as this
a resignation must come!!
though criticism has been steady, and deservedly so, there has been grace shown in that not many have used the R word...
that time has ceased!!
it is time that the concerned rise with one voice in whatever means available and demand:
RESIGN!!
I have been wondering where it is that you get a Doctorate of Divinity or Theology.
Wal-mart? K-Mart? A cracker jack box?
We have a pastor parading around as a preacher that is not qualifed to teach a second grade Sunday school class.
MOM4 said:
WTN,
Whether you are an expert in the field or not, I think you have hit the nail on the head. We as a church are liable and the inaction of Steve Gaines will cost us dearly. We have lost our reputation that Dr Rogers and his impeccable integrity had built, unfortunately, we have apparently been riding the coattails of Dr Rogers or we would have been more suspect of our search committee and the leadership who has betrayed our trust. This is just the tip of the iceberg. I urge David Brown to hold a news conference to bring out the facts before the service tonight. Steve Gaines has had his chance to put his personal spin on this, it is time for him to face the cold hard facts.
MOM4, I have been disappointed in some of the actions taken by our pastor. He has asked for forgiveness and I have forgiven. But, I believe that you are somewhat prejudice to accuse Dr. Gaines of inaction and liable and assume no wrong on the behalf of Dr. Rogers. You may recall that Paul Williams was brought to Bellevue by Dr. Rogers and left. He returned later to Bellevue. You do not know what the facts are and whether Dr. Rogers was aware of this issue. Remember that it happened seventeen years ago. For all we know, Dr. Rogers knew and allowed Paul to return to Bellevue as a forgiven molester, “under the blood”. Dr. Gaines may have felt that since Dr. Rogers had allowed this who was he to end Paul’s career. I must ask why you would be so quick to place blame not knowing the details. Would you be less likely to blame Dr. Gaines should it be revealed that Dr. Rogers had known and allowed Paul to be on staff?
Yes, we have some concerns but the constant attack on a man of God is wrong no matter how you cut it. I would suggest that we allow the situation to play out before making such harsh judgments on our pastor.
a child rapist can get a seminary degree; he can hold a high paying position in a mega church; he can give 'counsel' to those affected by the same crimes that he has committed; he can be given administative leave with pay when he is found out; he can be showered with understanding and grace from his pastor, to the tune of ovations; 'he' can do all these things.
but 'we' can rise up and say no more...not as discontented rabble rousers, but as GOD's children filled with anger at the things that rouses the anger of the only Sovereign...
NO MORE!! it is coming
tim
agreed; I dont think it would be deep enough for the second graders
JMO,
I would ask the same of Dr
Adrian Rogers if he had failed to act on this. Let's not play games with a dead man. Dr Rogers is not the issue at hand, besides, if Dr Rogers acted so forcefully on a minister over an affair, what do you think he would do with a pedifile, slap his little hand and give him the keys to the children's department - I think not!
no more emails; no more going through the secretary--a thousand certified letters demanding resignation would be a good start...and not just to the pastor, and not just one time
It is unacceptable to learn that a staff member at BBC is a child rapist and not immediately fire the man. This is not just a child molester. This person is a homosexual child rapist and has engaged in incest.
Steve Gaines must be fired immediately. He lacks the judgment to be a Senior Pastor.
If the BOD of BBC does not immediately fire Steve Gaines for dereliction of duty then they must also be relieved of duty.
just my opinion,
First you are wrong. This was not anything that Dr. Rogers was ever aware of. Period. If you prefer to believe differently then have it. I know the character of the man of whom you speak and can say with certainty that it was not known.
Secondly, perhaps you can explain why Paul openly rebuked Peter, James and Barnabas. Thewse were definitely men of God, which is something that to this point I can not say for our pastor. Open rebuke is evidently something God supported when he was moved to have it recorded within His Word.
Thirdly, the ministry of any man should be ended by acts such as this no matter who approved or disapproved of them. Quite honestly, I am amazed that God has not struck him dead along with any that knew of his actions and choose to conceal them.
Tim,
Amen and AMEN! I made the same statement this morning when the pastor was comparing the virginity of Mary to Paul Williams in his sermon. This is blasphemy from the pulpit and I was truly shocked that the man is still standing!
just my opinion,
At least two of us have already stated that we have it from unimpeachable but confidential sources that Dr. Rogers was not aware of this situation. So for you to come here and say that he might have known is just wrong. Do you think for one second that if he dealt with a philanderer the swift and decisive way he did that he'd overlook a child molester and allow him to remain on staff? It must be a sign from heaven that the "word verification" I'm looking at spells "loco" because that's exactly what your "opinion" is! How dare you!
This sounds like the story David Brown got from David Coombs this week when Coombs said this thing was dealt with 17 years ago. It was not dealt with 17 years ago, or we wouldn't be dealing with it now. How dare you, David Coombs, for trying to push this thing off on the memory of Dr. Rogers! You should be ashamed!
NASS
To the poster "Just my opinon"
and any other spinmeisters sent by the administration:
The attempt to put this off on Dr. Rogers is not going to work. This matter came to a senior minister on staff those many years ago. I'll use initials (EB) so you understand that I know and others will if you try to pull this.
EB kept this from Dr. Rogers or Paul Williams would have been fired. EB is, of course, no longer at Bellevue and is beyond comment. Do you really think that if Dr. Rogers knew about this that he would have allowed Paul Williams to be over the records for children's workers???
Do you think that Bob Sorrell or anyone else would have allowed such a thing????
There is no excuse. There is no spin. I find this attempt at pinning this on Dr. Rogers despicable. Your willingness to prop up Gaines at any cost makes me sick!
Six months... I knew about this for just a few days and could not sleep. How could Gaines have allowed him to stay??
Leadership of Bellevue,
It would be wise to listen.
After the shock of disbelief wears off, then the inevitable anger will follow. You have miscalculated the amount of righteous anger that will very soon start to build.
Psalms 31:17-18
17 Let me not be ashamed, O LORD; for I have called upon thee: let the wicked be ashamed, and let them be silent in the grave.
18 Let the lying lips be put to silence; which speak grievous things proudly and contemptuously against the righteous.
This is the warning of God. He can and will silence the wicked. He will not tolerate speech against righteousness. The leaders of Bellevue should heed the word of the people of God, but if they will not hear the people, then they should fear the Word of the Lord.
Maybe he was a pastor emeritus?
We need to clean house by whatever means the Lord allows. The leadership that supports Gaines in his folly is just as responsible as he is, whether they knew about this particular incident or not they knew of his character, or lack thereof. They covered him and his folly, buffered him from questions for the truth, demonized those who tried to ask questions. cast Mark Sharpe into "outer darkness" as far as his church fellowship was concerned and have the audacity to create BFC lessons to "keep the sheep from learning of these sins", telling them not to go there - HELLO!! They are just as guilty, guilty, guilty!
I can almost assure you that someone else knew or we wouldn't have ever heard about it. What does Mark Dougharty have to say about it, and the rest of the upper staff and leadership?? Someone knows even more than we do and I can almost promise you, it is ugly. If this is the case, who will stand for the innocent victims if we don't?
I'm not going to spell this out for now. Those whom I was addressing know the person and the circumstances.
I was there this morning. I heard precisely what Steve Gaines said. Here is the run down:
****
SG had a confidential meeting with PW back in June. PW shared with SG the activity that had occurred some 17 years ago. PW told SG the activity had ceased, followed by a confession to his family. He had also been in counseling about the entire situation with a retired BBC staff member. The staff member had informed SG that several months prior to talking to SG that PW had been talking with and counseling with a certified Christian psychologist, as well as a respected member of BBC’s Biblical Guidance team here at BBC. PW assured us that nothing else had happened over the past 17 years. As a result of my (SG) meeting with PW, and because there was no reoccurrence of the activity, and because PW had submitted to counseling for years earlier, and also because of counseling in recent months, and he has asserted there was no reoccurrence, SG decided to honor the confidentiality that he had with PW. Less than 2 weeks ago, I (SG) was asked to meet with a family member of PW -- 2 friends of that family member regarding that situation -- and at the time of that meeting, it became obvious to me (SG) that some members of the PW family were not completely resolved. SG realized in that meeting that his continued confidentiality with PW was no longer an option. SG then contacted Mark Dougharty, David Coombs, Bryan Miller, and one other key member of the personnel committee. SG met with these four men and discussed the details regarding this situation. The last 2 weeks have led to this decision. As a result of this entire situation, it is obvious that we need operational policies and procedures at BBC to be available to give us guidance in these types of situations. SG instructed the personnel committee to put these together in writing for all of BBC’s staff members in order to have some guidance should this situation occur again.
****
Questions to Consider:
1) SG says he was made aware of the situation (child molestation of his own son) back in June.
> Why was PW not suspended, pending an investigation?
> Were the legal authorities contacted at that time?
> Our tithes continued to pay PW’s salary for the past 6 months after our Pastor learned of this situation -- and continue to this day!
> With a situation this severe, SG chose NOT to take the appropriate action to dismiss PW. What have we come to? How much is enough? Where is the integrity?
2) SG says he was told by PW that no other activity has occurred in the past 17 years
> Excuse me for what I think is a rhetorical question: why would PW (or any other child molester) be viewed with having any credibility??
> By Steve Gaines’ own account this morning, he “decided to honor the confidentiality that he had with PW.”
Message to All -- Supporters of Steve Gaines and Anybody Else:
> Regardless of what anybody believes or does not believe regarding Steve Gaines;
> Regardless of whether somebody likes or dislikes the music;
> Regardless of whether somebody believes SG’s “apology” to Dr. Jim Whitmire was sincere or insincere;
> Regardless of whether somebody considers a 43” fence to be “itty bitty” or a “little ol’ fence” or a big fence;
> Regardless of whether somebody believes Steve Gaines is arrogant or just direct;
> Regardless of whether somebody thinks Steve Gaines has integrity or whether he has compromised himself;
> Regardless of whether somebody
> this specific situation involving Steve Gaines’ decision to allow an admitted homosexual child molester to remain on staff in a leadership position is deplorable.
At a minimum, PW should have been placed on a suspension with pay, pending an immediate investigation, back in June. It is now December -- 6 months later. While it is good that PW has continued to receive counseling, it is unacceptable that PW has been allowed to remain on staff - let along for this long. And, we are still paying his salary!! Does this make our Pastor, Steve Gaines, an accomplice? How many folks has PW counseled? How do we know there are not other victims? Why did our Pastor finally decide to do something now? Praise God, we are a forgiving church. However, consequences follow the actions of one’s choices. Our leadership must adhere to these principles.
In the past, Steve Gaines stated that there were “just 2 or 3 troublemakers stirring things up.” Brother Steve, I respectfully disagree with you. You are doing just fine keeping things stirred up. And, I believe that the numbers of those who have finally had it with the lack of integrity from our Pastor and Leadership are growing like never before. God will prevail. We are all being challenged from within. What are we made of? Where is our conscience? Where is our faith? Where is our courage? God help us.
> Steve Gaines: Respectfully, please do the right thing and resign. Thank you.
Correction on my last post - the reference to someone else "knew" - I mean that during the time frame Steve Gaines knew - someone else had to know about it or we would not have heard about it.
Sackcloth, are you referring to the man who died a couple of years ago?
Don't be so sure Bob Sorrell did not know. This is exactly the kind of thing he would have made sure Dr. Rogers did not know.
ilmc,
I am sure Mr Sorrell will be interviewed, along with many others.
Isaih 47:4-15
4 As for our Redeemer, the LORD of hosts is his name, the Holy One of Israel.
5 Sit thou silent, and get thee into darkness, O daughter of the Chalde'ans: for thou shalt no more be called, The lady of kingdoms.
6 I was wroth with my people, I have polluted mine inheritance, and given them into thine hand: thou didst show them no mercy; upon the ancient hast thou very heavily laid thy yoke.
7 And thou saidst, I shall be a lady for ever: so that thou didst not lay these things to thy heart, neither didst remember the latter end of it.
8 Therefore hear now this, thou that art given to pleasures, that dwellest carelessly, that sayest in thine heart, I am, and none else besides me; I shall not sit as a widow, neither shall I know the loss of children:
9 but these two things shall come to thee in a moment in one day, the loss of children, and widowhood: they shall come upon thee in their perfection for the multitude of thy sorceries, and for the great abundance of thine enchantments.
10 For thou hast trusted in thy wickedness: thou hast said, None seeth me. Thy wisdom and thy knowledge, it hath perverted thee; and thou hast said in thine heart, I am, and none else besides me.
11 Therefore shall evil come upon thee; thou shalt not know from whence it riseth: and mischief shall fall upon thee; thou shalt not be able to put it off: and desolation shall come upon thee suddenly, which thou shalt not know.
12 Stand now with thine enchantments, and with the multitude of thy sorceries, wherein thou hast labored from thy youth; if so be thou shalt be able to profit, if so be thou mayest prevail.
13 Thou art wearied in the multitude of thy counsels. Let now the astrologers, the stargazers, the monthly prognosticators, stand up, and save thee from these things that shall come upon thee.
14 Behold, they shall be as stubble; the fire shall burn them; they shall not deliver themselves from the power of the flame: there shall not be a coal to warm at, nor fire to sit before it.
15 Thus shall they be unto thee with whom thou hast labored, even thy merchants, from thy youth: they shall wander every one to his quarter; none shall save thee.
NASS,
I was told two months ago that some Bellevue members informed the editors of the Commercial Appeal that if they dared publish any more articles or letters to the editor regarding Bellevue that they would cancel their subscriptions to the paper.
I don't doubt at all that someone with influence warned the CA not to publish any more articles. But I seriously doubt the threat of a few subscription dollars was the motivator. Advertising dollars? Now that's another story. Now, think who some major, regular advertisers might be...
To be clear, this is mere speculation. But it does make sense, and I agree there's been a strange silence which is highly atypical of such events. Normally the media is salivating for stories of this nature.
ch,
I've no doubt if there was any pressure, it came from a source beyond a few little subscribers.
NASS
I'd like to urge everyone who isn't attending Bellevue or some other church tonight to go here and listen to The Majesty of Christmas by Bellevue's choir and orchestra. It begins at 6:00. The forum will still be here when it's over, so take a break and enjoy some good Christmas music!
NBBCOF
I am home sick today, watching the Majesty online tonight. I was pondering the events of these past months and especially today and online I see a multitude of dedicated Christians in the choir and orchestra as well as the membership in the audience.
I feel the need for us to pray for the body of Christ at Bellevue, that the Lord will continue to reveal sin and that we will be discerning and bold enough to call it what it is, regardless of the consequence. I especially pray that the membership I love will see what God has revealed and be willing to act upon it. I pray for the leadership, that they will see that they are responsible for supporting sin and the attempt to conceal it from the world. I am thankful that we have a Holy God who knows all about it who calls it what it is. Let us not fail to act on the principles he has set forth in His Word. Let our testimony be that no matter who is in sin, that we will act on God's Word and remove it from the house of our Holy God.
Cut and Past
https://crimemapper.memphispolice.org/crimemapper/index.cfm?action=search
Link did not come thru. Pull up site and place in 2000 Appling Road
CASE NO OFFENSE DATE REPORTED 100 BLOCK ADDRESS
0612005668ME Forcible Rape 12/12/2006 2000 APPLING
Dear Memphismom02-
I find your 3:15 pm comment- well, repulsive. To question where the vicitm's mother and sister were while this was going on is absolutely insensitive and absurd. It comes off as if you are accusing them of knowing and doing nothing about the situation. Unless you know for a fact that is the case, I suggest you delete your post. Furthermore, I believe most victims will tell you most cases occur in private- not during family game night. I have always considered both the mother and sister Godly women and have no reason to believe otherwise at this point. Truth be told, chances are the mom and sister were probably somehow serving God while this was going on- that is how both of them spend most of their time. Please watch what you say & back it up.
For those of you who thought that I'd gone off the deep end this morning post-admission of the "moral indiscretion," I want you to read Matthew 23. Jesus said those things to legalists who were hypocrites and putting too heavy a burden on the people. I said what I said this morning about one who wouldn't even call vileness what it was: molestation.
Some have said I lost credibility over those posts. Well folks, if I lose credibility over those, then I'm fine with it. I won’t be the first to take a blow for calling sin sin and putting in the stark terms that filth like this deserves.
It's hard to think of a prophet declaring the truth who had a lot of credibility. If I end up out in the desert with ravens feeding me, I'm ok with that. I'll stand by the pronunciation of evil. Knowingly risking our women and children by not dealing with a pedophile in our midst is one of the worst things I can think of.
If my credibility took a hit, so be it. I've spent months trying to maintain a clear, cool, concise point of view on all of this. But we learned today that our pastor has knowingly left a child molester (paid from our tithes) roaming our halls. He allowed a child molester to interview workers for the children's department. He allowed a child molester to ask perspective children's ministry workers, "Have you ever been sexually molested?"
Folks, I've stayed fairly detached most of the time. Now is the time for anger. Be angry and sin not. Brothers and Sisters, it's time.
Proverbs 24:23-25
23 These things also belong to the wise. It is not good to have respect of persons in judgment.
24 He that saith unto the wicked, Thou art righteous;
him shall the people curse,
nations shall abhor him:
25 but to them that rebuke him shall be delight, and a good blessing shall come upon them.
The Word of God.
The Promise of God.
Custos,
I whole heartedly agree. The moment that I should address sin as anything less, I pray that there be someone to correct me. Your post concided with mine. Interesting how well they fit.
Bereans,
I agree that a message would have been sent had the choir loft been empty. I can not however fault the choir members for their act of worship. Even in times of crisis and difficulty, God is to be worshipped.
Learning that Minister Paul Williams molested his son has really broke me.
Tonight when I was listening to one of my all time favorite songs "Silent Night, I began to think about Paul`s son instead of Mary`s son.
Just the first two words took me to a different place than the song ever intended anyone to go ...SILENT NIGHT...
It was indeed a silent night for Paul`s son on the evening of his sodomized rape and he would have silent nights for seventeen long years.
Paul was not only his father but an ordanied minister at Bellevue where he was placed in the prayer ministry and special events.
Imagine being a young teenager and how it would feel everytime you saw your rapist, sodomizing father ministering and praying with others.
Imagine how it would effect your own spiritual life to see your own father counseling sexually abused members of your church , while knowing his darkest desires were to lay down with little boys and sodomize them.
Imagine hearing your pedophile father calling on the name of Jesus while he`s committing an abomination before GOD.
Imagine what it must have been like for Paul`s son during all these years of silent pain.
Now imagine what it feels like to know that once the silence was broken, men who claim to be God`s elect, find everyway they can to support the father who introduced you to silent nights of humiliation.
Imagine all these things.
How does it feel to know that our tithes and offerings helped to support debachery.
No wonder Bellevue ministers don`t mind giving our money to FUMC.
It looks like they are twin churches.
Custos,
Amen and amen. For what it's worth, today you have risen in my estimation. Your level of moral outrage is more than appropriate given the offense.
I have been nice and restrained up until now. Recent revelations have greatly elevated my outrage and I intend to respond in some manner. However, I am going to pray and sleep on it before I do something I will regret.
Blessmewiththetruth,
I agree with you. One can try to relate with the depth of pain and confusion Mr Williams son feels. Additionally, consider how he might feel knowing that everyone else is aware of this misfortunate event. This is a sad day.
I am considering filing a law suit against Bellevue Baptist Church for allowing Paul Williams to have access to our children for the last six months and I would like to know what ministers knew about this asap.
Custos,
Thank you for calling a sin "sin"
You sir have my respect.
Anyone who knows someone counseled by Paul Williams please contact me as soon as possible.
These are people who I have confirmed to have known about this.
Are there others?
Steve Gaines
Mark Daughtery
David Coombs
Bryan Miller
Paul Williams
Custos,
If ever there were a time for righteous anger, today would be the day. You have lost no credibility with me.
I would also like to clear something up on behalf of all victims of such a heinous crime. This event described here is not simple molestation. It is rape and need to be addressed as such.
BlessMeWithTheTruth said...
I am considering filing a law suit against Bellevue Baptist Church for allowing Paul Williams to have access to our children for the last six months and I would like to know what ministers knew about this asap.
7:49 PM, December 17, 2006
Can't say I blame you.Somehow I believe there will be others thinking of this option.Like I said this morning I know why SG has $30 mil. in the bank.He will need it.
Hello all,
I spoke with Jaime Fish tonight and told him anything I said here I would say to his face - I asked him about the forcible rape. The report was taken on 12/12/06-Tuesday. The alleged rape happened the previous Saturday and it was between 2 teenagers. No 12 year old boy was dropped off for the SCT and got raped.
I think any alluding to a 12 year old boy on this blog should be deleted because it's simply not true.
I'm not endorsing what was done, but typically if a "rape" happened 3 days prior to a report being taken by the police, I tend to believe it was consensual and someone got "buyer's remorse".
I could be totally wrong in my assumptions, but please know the incident did not involve a 12 year old boy nor anyone on staff at BBC.
Karen
bereans,
I understand and agree that Bellevue in it's current condition is no longer worthy of the support of true Christians. The house of the Lord has been defiled yet again.
Our Lord however has not changed and he is worthy of our praise in all places at all times, wherever we may find ourselves. While I personally could not have participated, I can not fault those that did. If ever there was a time and a place that God need to be present then it is now and God inhabits the praise of his people.
What good would it do to sue the church and take whatever amount of money they have sitting around? The lawyers would get most of what ever money was awarded. This money would be our fellow brother's and sister's tithes. Suing will bring only more heartache and drag our church and others through the mud. I would rather see our churches money used spread the gospel.
Those responsible need to face criminal charges and resignations should be tendered.
Custos has certainly not lost an ounce of credibility with me.
Karen,
Often with rape victims the crime goes unreported forever. It is very common for days and weeks to pass, because the victim feels responsible and dirty. The victim many times does not want to report the crime because of shame. The fact that it was reported as rape would indicate that it was not consensual.
To All,
Question: If you truly Love the church, and by being there tears the congregation apart, why stay? Whether you are right or wrong - why stay? If by stepping down you show love - why would you not sacrificially step down?
I'll wait until I know all the facts before posting on the rape allegations. I tried to tell you some actually good news (it didn't involve a child) and apparantly it's still not good enough.
karen
My My My what a difference a week makes. Why stay indeed. I see more and more of you are seeing the self serving side to Mr Gaines' preaching. I'm glad it's more visible. Notice please I didn't call him Paster or Dr. That was on purpose. As far as a lawsuit goes I'll say this. Weeks ago I said the only way to affect the change you want is to hit the church where it hurts in the pocket book. Now I don't think any money should be awarded to anyone. I think it should be used as leverage to accomplish what needs doing. Mainly housecleaning. So, either you resign and do as the congregation wishes or you forfeit x amount of dollars to whomever. I'd gladly pay whatever it takes to accomplish this. Most christians would. If it meant that BBC had 0$ left in the bank it would be worth it for restoration.
Thank you all.
May we stand strong in the days to come.
This morning Bryan asked for anyone with any evidence about Paul Williams to come forth and contact Mark Daughtery`s office.
Why ask for evidence and refrain from telling the people what happened?
It makes no sense to me why they just beat around the bush and call this moral indiscretion.
By all means, if you are reading this blog and you do have any evidence that Paul Williams has done anything wrong, sexually or not, please bring that information as they asked but be sure to send it by registered mail so they have to sign for it and keep a copy in your own personal file because we are dealing with a group of vipers who will turn what you say around or say they never knew what you have told them.
Karen,
It is good news that it was not a small child. However, teenagers are still children. This is still a quite serious matter. Granted if this were two 18 year olds it will be different than if it is two 13 year olds, but it is still serious. There is also the possibility that it be an 18 year old fellow and a 13 year old girl. I believe that church should be willing to give us at least that much information. I certainly understand that they are not able to release names. That is standard for the police dept as well. I just didn't want to see anyone jump to conclusions without enough information.
Bereans,
The point of disagreement, at least in my mind, is that I don't believe that I or the folks in the choir should just fold our tents and move on. They didn't just show up for the first time tonite to sing. These people have been involved in the church for at least a number of months and in my thinking they have not done anything wrong. There are people that need to pack up and get out, but it is not the dedicated people of the choir or those like myself.
phil413,
God help us indeed. Apparently the leadership, and unfortunately some members have become so desensitized to sin that they can no longer call it what it is. Has BBC really become that liberal?...this is the kind of stuff that used to happen at "that other church". I can't even express what I'm feeling right now..I can't think of a time I've felt at such a loss of confidence in those who are supposed to be our guides.
Anyone considering legal action against Bellevue should also consider donating any financial settlement gain to SNAP or a charity of their choosing.
custos,
Never apologize for calling a spade a spade..we're living in times when many who name the name of Christ have become compromised with the world's philosophies. Stand firm..fend for the faith..fight the good fight.
bereans,
Thanks for elaborating.
It does make sense that they would not participate if they were miserable in doing so.
Aren't more of you finding it more and more difficult to submit to Gaines' leadership?
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