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About Me
- New BBC Open Forum
- This forum was created to provide a place where those who are seriously concerned about the issues facing Bellevue Baptist Church and the SBC can come to comment and exchange ideas. Anonymous comments are welcome, but it is respectfully requested that instead of choosing the "Anonymous" option those who want to post comments without logging in select a unique screen name. This lets everyone tell the difference between one anon and another without revealing any personal information. Under the box where you compose your comment where it says "Choose an identity," just check "Name/URL" and type in the screen name of your choice. You can leave the URL field blank. It would be helpful if you'd use the same screen name for any subsequent comments. This makes reading and following discussions easier, helps avoid confusion, and doesn't result in one person being credited for writing something s/he didn't. Comments by posters whose only purpose is to disrupt (i.e. trolls) will be subject to deletion. Your cooperation will be appreciated.
366 comments:
«Oldest ‹Older 201 – 366 of 366"Another thought, you keep people with what you bring them to Jesus with. Bring them with music, you keep them with music. Bring them with sound Biblical preaching, which is what grew BBC under Dr. Rogers, that's how you keep them."
11:10 PM, December 08, 2006
financeguy,
amen
ok, dudes - I'm tired, I've got kids basketball in the morning and I am whupped!
Toodles and have sweet dreams!
Karen
ezekiel,
I commend you for reading it through. My former church had a yearly read through the Bible program...I attempted it 5 times...made it 3..in the historical chronology...nothing like it..the Word opened up to me like it never had before.
David,
Please don't take anything I have said as an attack. I really want to understand this. I know good men who believe differently than I do on this. I also know I did not go to seminary and many who have hold a different view have PhD's in Theology.
In your last post you made a fair point. But notice the Lord added to their number, not a pastor's persuasiveness.
My belief is that any time we supplant God's wisdom with our own we destroy His plan. And I don't believe He planned the church this way. If He did, it seems Paul and the other New Testament writers left those parts out. Perhaps the seeker-sensitive movement is in the Gnostic Gospels. Maybe I should read one of Elaine Pagels books.
Obviously I am being somewhat facetious, but I am truly looking for an answer to my question. Where is the Scriptural basis for bringing the world into the church for the basis of conversion? I see plenty of support for going forth unto the nations, but little for asking the nations to come hither.
WTB,
The key is in the term "seeker-sensitive". The Bible says there are none who seek after God.
Please wake up! Ya'll are so full of SELF! Can't you see, if you really cared about God's work in your lives (rather than trying to control the business and personnel of BBC) you would not put yourselves under a leader that you profess to not Trust and that you want to resign. Did not Pastor Rogers, himself, say about liberal churches: "Don't tell me you belong to that old country church because your family has always been members there and that grandma is buried in the church cemetary . . . If grandma could she would get up and move" What's the difference with staying at BBC? Is it OK for you to stay at BBC but not follow the Lord's leader, Dr Gains? Is it OK for you to stay at BBC and not tithe, but send your offering to some other place than the storehouse (Pastor Rogers never taught that!)
So what are you doing instead: gossip; destroy people's character; hurt the body of Christ; cause your brother to stumble but distracting Christians from growth and the lost from the "main thing" of being saved; playing games with facts until your exposed for your 1/2 truths and distortions! ARE YA'LL SO SELF CENTERED AND PETTY THAT YOU CAN'T GET ON WITH YOUR LIVES, BUT MUST CONTINUE THIS EVIL? I think all of ya'll missed out on growing while listening to Pastor Rogers preach. You heard, you took notes, you memorized, you felt holy, but you failed to apply His Word to your lives. Just alot of legalism! Just alot of "flesh on parade" as Pastor Rogers called it!
On Sunday the only seeker present is God...who seeks worshipers who worship in spirit and truth...and seeks to save that which was lost.
A couple of weeks ago I asked if anyone had thought about getting a petition together to see where the entire body of the church stood on these issues you guys keep bringing up?
1. Has anybidy really considered that?
2. How many signatures do youthink you would really obtain?
david/whomever
There's a professor over at MABTS who is said to be actually writing Dr. Gaines sermons. This was said by Pastor Gaines in a seminary class over there with witnesses.
I doubt that he's spending 20 hours on any of the many messages he is preaching in any given week at BBC and other churches.
allofgrace:
this is jake, and I'm back home, no longer a 'new prospect'. the LORD done gave a new 'gettin' dirty job...but it been so cold down here...nothin' so pretty as frozen bayou water, all brown with frozen hydrilla...
been doin' some good readin'...if you dont got these, get'em...they a mile wide and a mile deep...I done been throwed down in the dirt so many times readin', I got to keep me a dustbuster by the bed:
-The Christology of John Owens-Richard Daniels
-The Pharisee and the Publican
John Bunyan
-The Hope of Israel- Philip Mauro (excellent gospel-mil reading)
Hope it aint too rude to bust in here with this stuff, but I think others do worse
Ez...Jus' a thought...If a man take a long time to get ready for preachin', its good spent time... otherwise, he might be off jumpin' fences and whatnot- dat's me funnin'
trustandobey
We did listen and grow under Dr. Rogers. This is why we recognise sin when we see it. Go back to your office on the 2nd floor or your saddlemaking shop and leave us alone.
Who says Dr. Gaines has to prepare all of his sermons anyway? Someone said he has help but even if he doesn't have help, he would have a huge file of sermons he preached at Gardendale. Why couldn't he pull those out for Wednesday night?
Anyway, I kinda thought it was part of the jobfor any pastor.
Hi,Karen. Nice to hear from you!
trustandobey,
I am not sure what you have been reading. Dr. Rogers also taught us not to listen to any man but to test it against the Word of God even when he spoke.
flatfoot,
Probably more than you think...less than what I think...but really..what bearing would that have on what's right or wrong?
jake,
good to hear from you...i didn't think it got cold down in bayou country.
Allofgrace,
Three times is terrific. I've made it twice.
Yesterday I heard Hank Hannegraaff say he was saved when he was twenty-nine and he had heavy regret over his wasted years.
I have a different problem. I was saved thirty years ago when I was nine. I have wasted years post salvation. Instead of reading the Bible through twice, I should have read it cover to cover thirty times.
Blessedly sins of omission are covered by the blood too.
Trust and Obey
Dr. Rogers didn't just jump ship when the SBC was in jeopardy. He hung in there and would not allow it to be hijacked. I'd think he would hope for godly men to hold leadership accountable and not just surrender.
What are these lies and half truths anyway? I haven't heard any except from Dr. Gaines and the Cover Up Committee.
OK, if you learned, tested, etc. You have already found Dr Gaines unworthy (asked for him to resign). So why are you still at BBC, why sin against God and not tithe to the storehouse?
Allofgrace, I am not talking about having right or wrong points, I am saying have a list of concerns that need to be addressed. If enough people sign it and present it to the church with actual real names, I think they would have to address the issues.
jus' a thought for you preachers.. is not the preachin' of the gospel the invitation?...first, external, from the preacher. but its jus' words 'til the Spirit give life, ears to hear, eyes to see, heart to feel. why then invitationalize with prayer recitings? if GOD is drawin' them, and He must, does He need abc's and such to close the deal...Spurgeon say- 'hem them up with GOD'
He'll save'm when He get ready, not on cue between 11:45 &12:00
WTB,
Amen. I was blessed to have a mentor who discipled me one on one...his love for the Word was infectious. Here's something he gave me to do...start on the first day of the month...Psalms 1, 31, 61, etc to the end...then Proverbs 1...next day Ps. 2, 32, etc. Proverbs 2...by the end of the month you've gone through all the Psalms and Proverbs...that's your wisdom and comfort literature.
trustandobey,
What New Testament scripture do you have that defines where the tithe is to be placed. If the body of Christ is larger than our church (and it is) then is God not honored in giving to ministries other than our own?
flatfoot,
gotcha
financeguy said:
...Worship attendance has been in the 8K-9K range for the past couple years...
and ezekiel said:
We have reputable assessments of the non-regenerate members of the church being around 75-85%.
I can tell you from having been on staff at BBC (in the Communications Dept) for several years in the mid 1990s that the first statistic is very much in the right ballpark.
Now here's a thought: For a church claiming roughly 30,000 members... with less then 10,000 attending any given Sunday... where are the remaining 20,000 "members"?
And what does that say?
First, it quite easily substantiates 66% of the 75-85% statistic also given above.
I can tell you why the records are never purged (to any significant extent) of those who have revoked or moved their membership, or have passed away without notice, or have simply moved away:
Pride.
When you live by numbers, you definitely die by numbers. And what would it say to suddenly decrease BBC's "official" membership figure by up to two thirds?
Thoughts to ponder.
jake,
preach on bro
ch,
You nailed it
trustandobey,
Odd that your screen name is exactly what many of us are following. God has told me to stay where I am. I don't know what the outcome may be. A day from now, a week, a month He may lead me to go to another church. However, for now I can only trust what He is doing and obey what He has told me to do. If I had my way in this it would be easier to find another church, but it is not my will, but His.
trustandobey=troll. Don't feed him and he goes away.
Allofgrace:
you know sha, it a hard stretch to make church the storehouse and money be tithes...bein' dat the 'storehouse' was actually a storehouse and the 'first fruits' were actually, well, first fruits.. but dat's a ball to kick on another writin' place- make a writin' place on your site--good talkin' to be done about dat
jake,
good food for thought...i'll take that one under consideration.
financeguy,
Maybe...but at one time we looked upon "david" as a troll (and he was) :) "Just kidding a little"
I believe that some people come here and begin to read and see and their eyes are opened.
Trustandobey,
Tithing to a reputable organization within the body of Christ other than Bellevue seems to be my only voice at the moment -since numbers have been such an issue. I will not put God's money into the hands of Steve Tucker, Harry Smith, or Steve Gaines when I KNOW they cannot be trusted to tell the truth or have good judgement. God calls us to be good stewards and to give to His work.
As for my membership - I refuse to relinquish MY membership because of sin in the pulpit. HE needs to leave and we need to help him leave if he won't do it on his own. The worst thing that could happen is for all the members who are concerned to leave!
Piglet, are you really wanting Gaines to leave Bellevue?
Tim,
I wholeheartedly agree. I've searched and can't find a specific Scriptural directive that the tithe belongs only in the local church.
To say the tithe belongs solely and exclusively to some local 501c3 non-profit corporation with a "church" sign out front — as is usually spouted by most pastors, including SG (using different words, of course) — it's simply not defensible using any Scripture I'm aware of. I can't and won't say I've searched exhaustively, so if someone wants to point me in the right direction, I'm certainly teachable.
When you understand that the church (as portrayed through the New Testament) is not a building or a corporation, not a bank account or a piece of property, but the body of Christ as a whole... it makes even less sense.
And quite frankly, when I see that money which is to be used to further God's Kingdom, feed and clothe the poor, etc etc — when I see that money used to polish innumerable brass banisters, ensure a weed-free lawn out front, install 50+ plasma screens throughout the building, or prop of the ministry of an apostate church across town — I take issue with that.
ch,
Now you preach on brother.
Okay Tim, if you say so. I think he's (or she) is one of the ones Deaconisabeacon was talking about.
(says the guy who is starting to see demons behind every bush nowadays)
Tim,
bro, you give as GOD increase you and you give where it be pleasin' to GOD and peaceable with your conscience...it be meddlin' to say a man got to give 'here' or 'there'.
dat's legalspeak to be makin' a man give only to where he go to church at
ezekiel,
I LOVE the OT..my mentor was an OT kinda guy...and you got it...redemption didn't begin in the NT. It's all over the Bible.
Yes, I want him to go. Too much has happened and they aren't the isolated mistakes of a pastor that just needs "to ripen". He is conitinuing a pattern of behaviour that others have seen where he has pastored before. He's done a lot of harm to three churches.
I can forgive him but I want a pastor I can look up to...preferably one more mature than myself.
Tim,
You said, "...it is not my will, but His."
You summed up your problem right there. Your folly was your failure to realize you are to trust and obey your pastor, the self-described benevolent dictator.
To westtnbarrister:
Are you absolutely sure you do not want to confess to being Greg Addison? You said you were saved 30 years ago when you were 9? Isn't that the age of Greg?
What about baseball at BBC? You may have been to my house many years ago. You can email me and I will keep your secret.
If you are Greg, you played baseball with one of my sons. Honestly, though, you seem to have much more wisdom and knowledge than any 39-year-old I have EVER known.
david,
lotta different views on tithing here..personally i've always given through the local body..and missions through the cooperative program...but on the latter..from some of what i see coming out of the mission board..i'm rethinking that.
I for one like Gaines, I like his preaching. I do not want him to go. (Doubt you'll to many of this type of post here).
financeguy,
You are probably right. I like to give most folks a bit of a chance. There are a lot of folks at Bellevue that are just furious about this blog. Some get here and spout off a little then they see the issues that are out there. It can be quite sobbering to absorb all of what has been going on at Bellevue.
But after a time you have the "hisservants" and some others that come along and want to hi-jack the blog. Those are the guys that need to be ignored, but are the hardest not to speak to.
SO WHAT ARE THE LIES AND HALF TRUTHS?
TOO MANY COME ON HERE SAYING THAT AND CAN GIVE ME NO EXAMPLES!!!!!!
Ok. I feel better now.
WTB,
You're ID is in question tonight bro.LOL
David:
do believe the whole book; cute? not tryin' to be cute...know 'bout Abraham, Levites, temple and such;
I say give and do it cheerfully... but I bring de money to the offering box at local church, or I send to gospel missionary, but I dont be bringin wheat and corn to a storehouse at de temple for priests to live on.
and by all means, say more, but I wont say bunch more, cuz I get irritated at 10%'ers makin' sinners out of dem that dont "Bring their tithe to the storehouse"
2006huldah,
Many of the fellow posters can confirm I am plain ole WTB and not a pastor. I know more than a couple of them personally. I talked with my friend allofgrace for an hour or more today. He can confirm it for you.
Thank you for the compliment, it means a lot.
ezekiel,
here's a rhyme for you...the new is in the old concealed...the old is in the new revealed.
Trustandobey:
Are you out there?
My last post was meant for you.
Sorry, so slow in responding...
EZ, thank you very much but I am at home, and I do not sit in a security office. Please do not try to belittle my opinions.
david,
I am heading to bed. I appreciate the help that you have been to us. You have proven to have a calming effect on me at any rate. This ordeal has really take its toll on me. I have been at Bellevue for over 20 years and love my church. It has broken my heart over and over again to see what has been happening.
Goodnight all..
Flatfoot:
I can see why you might like Dr. Gaines if you are unaware of all that has happened this past year. I have very dear friends who admit they don't know and really don't want to. Have you read the letters, the interviews, attended any meetings? Are you or are you familiar with any deacons or staff members - especially any who have left?
David:
your point bein'?
Piglet, yes I am familiar with every thing on this blog, and I still keep in contact with a former minister at BBC
tim,
bless you brother...sleep in the peace that passes all understanding
Flatfoot:
Then I am at a loss.
Unless you want a job on staff.
Piglet, we just have different views of the accusations some of you are talking about. I do not buy in to all 20 points that one guy posts or whatever the number is.
Unfortunately there are new positions opening up all the time.....
To westtnbarrister:
Okay, I will believe you.
You do know that Greg Addison is also an attorney, don't you?
Sorry to pester you.
Dee
David:
No need to be talkin' like it to a 3 yr. old
know dem things you listed- but you still make a hard stretch makin' church de storehouse and tithe de money
sha, I love to give to gospel churches and dem' missionaries... but dont give because I'm bound, give freely outa blessed heart dat's been unbound
David, I agree. I read through them I wonder if they are going to add that Gaines speeds when he drives and he jay walks too. (joke)
Do I think BBC is the way it was under Dr. Rogers? NO
Do I think Gaines needs to resign? NO
Don't you only have to "buy in" to a few accusations?
There are so many, one only has to pick the ones that bother you most: lies, intimidation tactics, using the church account to get stuff tax free, donating church fungs to an apostate church, firing loved staff and having them sign disclosure statements, on and on and on.....
Ine intance of intimidation is enough
In response to all the discussion on tithing, I believe someone posted thisbefore, but check it out. Even though I think L Ray Smith has some problems, I had never looked at what the Bible has to say about tithing before in iany depth. I'd just accepted what has been taught from many a pulpit.
Good night.
Piglet: Sorry so long! I lost my connection and then crashed my computer. I think it's getting late for me.
David,
dat's common ground de last thing you said; offering given out of love; no restrictions--I also think too- 10% good place to start, but no place to hang your hat
but no, I didn't tell anyone not to give to their church, as you say I did...you drinkin the koolaid, but not knowin' de flavor
I think the reason the list is so long may be that any time an offense is mentioned, many respond - "oh, big deal" or excuse it some way, maybe by saying "nobody's perfect" or "it's an isolated offense".
Then, when multiple issues are raised, WE lose credibility?!!!
David, my question is this, where does the blog go from here?
piglet, as for me, there is still to much 3rd party hearsay for me to believe all of it.
I have only heard from Sharp when he has posted on here, not a thing from anyone with actual knowledge, well maybe I have but with the screennames it is hard to tell.
David...
Regarding the "reasonable" list...
Be my guest... Please give us yours. no sarcasm... I'm really interested.
David:
Settle down. As long as you maintain your integrity I doubt your members will give their tithes elsewhere. I realise you're seeing this from a pastor's point of view. I was PK and my grandfather was a preacher until he was 85 years old. I have never been led to tithe elsewhere until this year.
David, I could get behind that.
Piglet: Some of the 1/2 truths and heresay have included: credit card bill for Hilton; Country Club; Airline tickets; reason for visit in gated community; self serving sermons; intimidation of anybody; office library; key to office; gift to a church in the community; deacons & ministers misuse of money at BBC; speculation as to who is posting here; actions of deacon leadership; that actions by Pastor Rogers were OK, but the same actions by Dr. Gaines were not; or that Pastor Rogers was wrong too but none of you DARE confront HIM!
I'm glad to hear that Flatfoot actually believes there might BE a list.
Let it be noted that Trustandobey did not list any lies or half truths.
I think I'm the only lady here, so I'm going to let you guys have the floor.
gnite
David...
The pastor and three others apologized regarding that incident. The only one who hasn't is over interviewing deacons before they are allowed to become active again... And has done that for about 10 years... Do you see how that might be a problem?
jmo
David...
BTW... the fence thing isn't in my list of 20...
Just for the record, I am revising the list... However it may not be shorter. We'll see.
David,
jus' curious...you a 'abc', repeat dis prayer after me, 10 verse of jus' as I am invitation- man?
"But you all are talking, take that list of 20 and start cutting it down. Rework it until you have something Luther would nail to the door."
Luther did have 95 theses, ? Almost five times as many as 25+yrs has?
Just a thought :)
(And still trying to figure out how to put things in italics)
David...
I removed all of the items from the list that were apologized for as soon as any kind of apology was made....
David...
the tresspassing incident is not on the list...
Anybody else find themselves humming Bob Marley whilst reading backhome's posts?
(Sorry, backhome... just trying to lighten the mood here a bit. I certainly appreciate your words and look forward to hearing more from you. Absolutely no offense intended. Respect and peace!)
EZ said: Things getting lonely over there in the security office?
EZ this is bugging me that you are be littling the work I do, even though you have no idea what I do.
So I am going to forgive and forget it, but I wanted to let you know.
Oops. Trustandobey -you must have been posting while I was posting.
I'm glad you responded.
Some of the things you mentioned are based on opinion and perception ie: self serving sermons.
The "credit card"incident turned out to be a Bellevue account instead - big deal! He still got tax free services and it was comingling of funds.
The rest has been confirmed by people who have first hand knowledge -- of course the gift to FUMC is widely known and HAS EVEN BEEN APOLOGIZED FOR.
And nobody blames Gaines for anything Dr. Rogers did (and What would that be? He let a few men gain too much power when he was sick and near retirement. He trusted them. That's all he did wrong.
Oh no, Piglet! The deacons "in power" have been there 10 years or more, when was Pastor Rogers sick then? When were the church bylaws "changed" to "favor the pastor"? When was the "power" to asjust pay at BBC and hiring given the the pastor, etc? I think everything has been explained and explained and discussed and discussed. I think the problem lies with the "offended ones". I think they have allowed a root of bitterness to spring up and they cannot and do not want to FORGIVE. How and when are ya'll going to go about doing the Lord's work in Memphis and service at church if forgiveness and Christian maturity do not ever occur?
david,
dont know about 2 nights ago... but glad to hear you not a assembly line SBC preacher.
las' word bout givin'- I don't remember my growin' preacher ever preachin' anything but Christ,...for 20 years I heard em he never preached a sermon on 'tithing'... just the person and work of Christ...old/new testaments, Christ. 12 months a year, not just xmas and easter, Christ, GOD with us, Christ with power to lay down his life and take it up again...never on tithing though...never had to
Tithe. Yes. And more than tithe. Under grace and not under law, abundantly and above what is required. But to an organization? What about New Testament believers giving according as any had need? If a brother or sister say, depart in peace, notwithstanding that ye give not what is needful to the body, what doth it profit... Bellevue is NOT in any need- with millions of dollars just sitting there, unused, while church members are suffering, widows and orphans are in need. Yes, Give as unto the Lord. The Lord loves a cheerful giver.
I find it hard to be cheerful in giving to the Lord through the hands of such wasteful management (as evidenced by Bellevue's recent distributions of funds)
So... many of us are not saying we don't believe in tithing... just a vote of no confidence and sending the tithe somewhere that, by the evidence of their works, seems to be honoring the Lord as a steward of His work.
backhome,
did you say "xmas"?? please don't
Thanks for the input David... That looks like a good suggestion.
Rhetorical question for all:
Why do you think most churches become 501c3 non-profit corporations? Among other things, to make sure they get that all-important IRS tax-deductibility for their tithers.
How many less-than-completely committed churchgoers would continue tithing if it suddenly was no longer tax deductible?
It's one of the most brilliant moves the government/IRS machine ever put over on the church. It ensured that the people would always insist on their churches being incorporated, which puts that same church under the authority of the state.
Anyone else see a problem here?
ch,
I'm way too in the woods to be offended- Bob Marley? I think dats de mailman's name for the boat route.
who is bm?
las' word bout givin'- I don't remember my growin' preacher ever preachin' anything but Christ,...for 20 years I heard em he never preached a sermon on 'tithing'... just the person and work of Christ...old/new testaments, Christ. 12 months a year, not just xmas and easter, Christ, GOD with us, Christ with power to lay down his life and take it up again...
never on tithing though...never had to
Amen! Exactly. Preach Christ and his abundant grace! If I were a pastor, I would NOT want to be heard preaching "give 10%" Why put limits and prescriptions on grace? He who is forgiven much, loves much. Preaching law will at BEST ask for obedience to the letter of the law, but GRACE giving... wow. In the Old Testament, every man gave what was in his heart, and built a FANTASTIC temple... without envelopes, pledges... etc.
Just for clarity's sake, I am by no means arguing against tithing.
I give to the Lord, not to any man or any incorporated body. Everything I have is His, not just the first 10%.
And while I do not believe we as individual givers have the right to insist on where every penny given is spent, I do believe we have a general responsibility to see to it that those who are given financial oversight powers do submit themselves to the Lord and follow Scriptural principles of stewardship.
David,
man, you miss de whole point.
and another thing, you kinda of a smartmouth too. You know what they call me if I talk like that to de guys I work with...'injured'
flatfoot-yes...x-mas...dont want to dishonor Christ by attachin' his name to somethin' as abominable as the mass
backhome,
Ah, nevermind. Hard to read typographic accents. It was a joke without much of a punchline to begin with.
Grace and peace to all. Time to unplug the keyboard for the night.
Trustandobey-
Sure these men have been around a long time - I know several I've been here over 20 years myself.
But Dr. Rogers has delegated more to these men in the recent past. Before that time our bylaws were outdated, as you have stated, but it was not an issue because our pastor had integrity. We had no need of a means to remove him.
I have heard it stated that by-laws are like the police. You don't need them until a crime is committed. We have not needed the bylaws updated but they SHOULD have been, in order to prevent something like this from happening - a few men making decisions for the entire church body and a deacon body with no power whatsoever.
The committee that oversees salaries was abolished under Dr. Gaines.
Things have NOT been explained and explained. The answers given at the meetings have often been blank stares or ""I don't know".
If things have been discussed enough, why has the attendance of the meetings increased to over 200? People STILL have questions but the committee says they are finished.
GIVE ME A BREAK!
Their damage control plan backfired. Too many people showing up with hard questions.
Gaines and other leadership need to repent - not the membership. We would be sinning if we sat back and allowed this to happen because the price of confronting it is too great.
Forgiveness? I have forgiven the things he has asked forgiveness for. Forgiving is easy because I have not been harmed personally, like so many others. I only want a pastor that I can look up to. I do not have that.
I know...find another church....
David...
This is not a major point for reconciliation... However, the position of associate pastor (and a few others) of late has had men in it that just have backgrounds in business without any training... And not all seminaries are liberal today... There is a good one right across the street from BBC.
16. Higher standards should be put in place for the hiring of "ministers." Seminary training should be considered a normal prerequisite.
I must repectfully say that I agree with David on this one. The first sentence is great. The second? No. I've met seminary graduates that scared me to death. Ministers should be able to rightly divide the Word of Truth, whether they went to seminary or not
Goodnight, Trustandobey, sleep tight.
to sleep, cause de buck deer get up early
David...
Another good suggestion... Thanks.
Sin in the camp. LOL! "Just drop this one, just drop that one." "Make the list shorter like Martin Luther did" HE HE! His list was quite extensive, and not an easy read either. You know, the Lord's people even had to cover their excrement, because the LORD walks through the camp. If He was concerned about as many little things as it appears in the five books of the Law, He just might be concerned about that little thing too.
I'm sure it is quite hurtful to Dr. Gaines' family to hear the cheerleading thing recounted, yes. I'm sure it's quite hurtful to hear ANY of these issues. Sin is sin is sin. And it hurts everyone. Grieves the heart of our Lord, and wounds everything and everyone nearby. I don't think Achan's family enjoyed dying with him after his theft was "uncovered" either. My family has been deeply and grievously hurt by my sin. I wish I could change some of the things I've done, but I can't. Now I deal with consequences and they do too. Denying my sin, living in denial... my children KNOW when I am "double minded" sooner than anyone else does.
May He have mercy on us all.
Major issue? to know Him in the power of His resurrection
I'd like to be able to invite others to my church. I'm ashamed of her. Listen to the sermon on Bellevue's archives called "Use it or Lose it" Sounded like law and shame to me, not grace and truth. Mot to mention the implied reference to being cast into the outer darkness where there's weeping and gnashing of teeth... if you don't use your talent (particularly in the area of serving in the nursery?)
I wrote a much longer answer, but I just erased it. Too tired to answer with meekness and fear.
Goodnight
Swtt said…
I don't know you by name but I am going to pray for you right now that God gives you the health, strength, and heart to be a blessing to those around you.
FinanceGuy said...
swtt,
save your prayers, or rechannel them.
swtt said...
Financeguy,
I got your point on the pastor. I was trying to reel him in close enough to throw a net on him.
Response: Amazing! The lack of Christian character in some of these writings.
It sounded like the pastor had a change of heart. There is a guy that openly shared how he works 70+ hours a week, starting churches to reach the lost, and is only paid $11.00 an hour.
Financeguy said to rechannel your prayers and swtt was trying to real him in, to persecute him. I did not find anything in his recent writings, that appeared nothing more than a sincere heart trying to help and add insight.
Perhaps, this is why no one is going to take the 10-20 of you seriously. Sure you get a lot of hits on your website, but gossip attracts a lot of flies. What if Pastor Gaines, apologized from the pulpit, wait a second, he did. Those comments above show no matter what Pastor Gaines does, some of the people in here will never stop belly aching.
Financeguy and swtt, shame on you.
conncernedchrch,
The man you are speaking of has had a wonderful dialogue as a result of blog conversation. Once again, you show your lack of discernment. I'm not sure any of you guys have any discernment left at all. You obviously have no humor left in you. If you notice the dialogue, it has been very productive, and it proves that when people get on the blog and start to converse, they see what is really behind all the fuss. It's about the lack of integrity behind the pulpit and in the leadership.
What I see as a result of the leadership crisis, is a huge wave of Godly men ans women the current leadership has never paid attention to. (I wonder why)The wisdom I'm seeing in these men and women on this blog shows just how shallow SOME of our current leadership is including YOU.
Now get on back to running your corporation. There's money to be made this morning.
concernedchurch,
Let me relate a story to you. Some years back I worked for a property management company. One of the properties we mangaged was a house owned by one of the big bosses in an exclusive neighborhood full of upscale homes. This particular home was very nice..everything on the surface looked impeccable. One day the office got a call from the tenants in this house. The tenant was complaining that at the bottom of a door frame to a bathroom linen closet, there was some paint peeling. I was sent to check it out..when I looked at it...just a very small area right at the bottom of the door frame...no big deal right?...I reached down to scrape the loose paint off with my fingernail...to my shock the entire door frame including half of the wall stud it was attached to came off in my hand like paper..problem?....termites. Upon investigation, the entire bathroom and the other bathroom behind it were more than 50% eaten up by termites...on further investigation it was discovered that there wasn't one area in the house that did not have termite damage...serious damage...everything looked fine on the surface...till you peeled back the sheetrock, tile, etc. Both bathrooms had to be torn out and replaced...the pest control company came out and "treated" the house again for termites...all the foundational and surface damage was repaired. One year later....another call...the termites were back and had destroyed 75% of all that had been repaired...problem?...the root problem was never properly dealt with...repairing the surface damage made everything look better...but couldn't deal with what caused the problem in the first place...so..if the pest control company treated it...why did the termites come back?...answer...the EPA doesn't allow pest control companies to use what will actually get rid of the termite colony.
Are you seeing the analogy here yet?
conncernedchrch,
I forgot to ask you. When you sit down with Brother Steve sometime today or tonight for your next strategy meeting please ask the following questions.
1. If numbers are what we base our success on as Bellevue Baptist Church, why is this not considered a crisis going on with 7,000 in attendance for worship this past several months. According to a very well respected usher, the worship attendance is down 20% from a year ago. If we were averaging 9,000 in worship, my calculator comes up with about 2,000 people. With all of the new folks pouring into Bellevue, I figure the worship service has lost about 3,500 folks in the past year. Bible Fellowship attendance is lower as well and now the money is down.
2. How is it that 20 people on the internet can have this much effect on Bellevue Baptist Church? Since we have $30,000,000 in the bank, why not buy these 20 people off and send them happily on down the road? Then we can have it all to ourselves again.
3. Can we define Christian Character, especially when it comes to being truthful, humble, and loving? What are some of the things we can start doing in leadership to show the people we are genuine?
swtt said...
conncernedchrch,
I forgot to ask you. When you sit down with Brother Steve sometime today or tonight for your next strategy meeting please ask the following questions.
Please answer this question: Why is it automatically assumed that anyone who supports Bro. Steve must be either a) ignorant/uninformed, b) staff or "power people," c) paid to be posting on this forum, or d) otherwise nefariously motivated? Why the assumption that "conncernedchrch" will have some kind of clandestine "strategy meeting" with the pastor today? Why is not conceivable that there really are some basic, decent church members -- and lots of them -- who are reading every word posted on this forum, the old forum, and the sbc site and still choose a different path that does not agree with the one taken by the predominance of posters here, however many or few?
Since we have $30,000,000 in the bank, why not buy these 20 people off and send them happily on down the road?
At last, perhaps a motive emerges. Like the old saying goes, "I always knew you could be bought. I just never knew what your price was."
David,
I'm thrilled that someone else FINALLY said they think that Dr Gaines preaching is pretty blah (my words, not yours). Through this whole thing when I've discussed Dr Gaines with other people, so many who stand in our camp still say, "Oh he preaches such a good sermon. He's no Dr Rogers, but who is?"
True enough on the end point, but good night! It's like some people have never heard good preaching other than Dr Rogers and therefore think it doesn't exist!
When listening to Dr Gaines, I've not ever learned one new thing about Scripture, God, or the Faith. It is the most pablum'esque Evangelical preaching I've ever heard.
In my opinion, the preaching seems designed more to rally us around what we already know and reinforce the fact that ultimately he believes like we do therefore we should trust and approve him.
Think of the number of times Dr Gaines has made statements such as "This may not be popular, but I believe . . ." or "that's a big word that means . . ." or "not a lot of people in the world think this, but it's the truth . . ."
Every time after he does that he says something so blatantly obvious that a kid who's been in Bellevue Sunday school for a couple of years would know it.
Personally, I think it's a technique designed to get people following him by creating an artificial distance between the idea of "an average church attendee" and what Dr Gaines is preaching on. Follow me here: Those who consider themselves Joe Blow at Bellevue are then delighted to find that the gulf that separates most average church members from the “deep” truths Dr Gaines is talking about, well that that gulf doesn't separate him. Joe Blow thinks, "Wow, maybe I'm in better shape than I thought, and man isn't it cool that Dr Gaines validates that! After all, I always agree with these things he says most people don’t' agree with and I always know what he's talking about when he has to treat everyone else like little kids."
Now, I could be totally off here, but I don't think I am. Were I trying to build support in a new place, especially one that might be intimidating or threatening, this is exactly what I would do. I'd align myself with base, commonly held ideas of those in the church (easy because he’s already an Evangelical), speak in terms that they obviously get and whose content they agree with, and then gradually create a perceived, artificial maturity-divide between what they know and what I preach. Then those who recognize the similarity between what they already know and what he preaches feel like super-Christians from having overcome that divide with no trouble whatsoever. And then they declare, “Oh isn’t he a great preacher!” while
Reminds me of Atlas Shrugged and Francisco d’Anconia’s take on why women want to scandalously appear with him in the tabloids when he’s not done anything with them past dining out:
It was the women who were eager to rush into print with stories insinuating that being seen with me at a restaurant was the sign of a great romance. What do you suppose those women are after but the same thing as the chaser—the desire to gain their own value from the number and fame of the men they conquer? Only it's one step phonier, because the value they seek is not even in the actual fact, but in the impression on and the envy of other women . . . But my secret [that he’d never had a real relationship with any of them—or in our case, that we’d never learned anything from this preaching] is safe—because each one of them thinks that she was the only one who failed, while all the others succeeded, so she'll be the more vehement in swearing to our romance and will never admit the truth to anybody."
Like I said, could be wrong, and certainly it’s not all as sinister as d’Anconia’s situation was. But still, there seems perhaps more than a tinge of truth in this idea for a lot of people. Anyway, that’s my long-winded way of saying “kudos to you, David”!
Best,
Josh
PS I don’t mean to impugn Dr Gaines in the least by comparing him to d’Anconia, it's just an illustration.
So, custos, may we add "psychoanalytical expertise" to the ever-growing list of your many astounding talents? In an alphabetical list, it would have to fall somewhere between "pseudointellectual woolgathering" and "systematic theological meanderings." In a word, your argument is shaky, at best: Either Dr. Gaines is too dumb to preach a good sermon, OR he's clever as a fox, calculating and exacting to a fault in his strategy to deliberately deceive not only his congregation, but also those who listen to him via the web from graduate school ...
And where may we plumb the depths of YOUR next sermon?
Oh, we just did.
maybejustmaybe,
To someone like me, I see several characteristics that lead me to believe that most people supporting Steve Gaines are from the inner circle or at least the next circle. Why have none of you folks identified yourselves? I can tell you a lot of us are fearful of loosing our ministry at position at Bellevue. Ask Mark Sharpe, Richard Emerson, Ray Saba, all of the deacons that are not serving today because they would not support Steve Gaines any longer, all of the choir members that are not singing because they are not willing to blindly follow Steve Gaines, all of the Bible Fellowship teachers that had to step down, the list goes on and on....
If I was standing in support of the activities Steve Gaines has been involved in, I'd put my name behind my words. I wouldn't hide behind a blogname. Why are you hiding behind a blogname? What do you fear. What do you have to loose? For a lot of us, leaving Bellevue is not an option. If God says otherwise, then that day may come. We are not going to sit idle, be quiet, ignore wrong, embrace sin, or go away.
I do appreciate Derrick Calcote putting his name on the line but the interesting thing about Derrick is that he's not in the inner circle or the circle surrounding the inner circle. I believe Derrick has defended the pastor in an admirable way and I respect him for that. I beleive that Derrick has also thought a lot about his support for Steve Gaines lately.
In your case, I don't respect what you are doing. To make a blanket statement that the blog is just a bunch of lies, is not doing your cause justice. It's amazing that all of the allegations that have turned out to be true are not enought to have a light go off in your heart that something is wrong.
If you don't have any more discernment than that, I just don't know what else to say other than you are blinded to the truth.
On the money statement, you show your lack of humor once again. Surely you know we wouldn't be bought for a measly $30,000,000!
maybejustmaybe,
I forgot to add the following to the fallen ministers who had to move on for not swallowing and following. Remember these men whose love for the Lord remains deep. Remember their families that have been affected deeply.
Jim Whitmire
Craig Parker
Randy Redd
Rob Mullins
David Smith
David Powell
Tanner Hickman
TrustAndObey,
I thought about posting this the other day, thought better of it, and now that I've read your original post on this thread I think I will go ahead anyway.
I needed a little comic relief the other day, so I found a long looked for passage from America: The Book. If you're not familar with it, it's a satirical look at American history and government.
Your post seems to be based on the "Don't make a fuss" position. That is, if we don't like what's going on we should either leave or not make a fuss--kinda like Canada and the whole independence from Britain thing.
Anyway, that's the tie in. The following passage from America: The Book is on the Canadian approach to independence. I think this could be renamed the "Bellevue Congregation's Approach to Exercising Congregational Approval."
Enjoy a laugh out of this if nothing else.
Would You Mind If I Told You How We Do It In Canada?
"The story of America’s independence from England is very well known, but did you know that Canada was also once part of the British Empire? It’s true! We Canadians threw off the same British yoke as you, only we took a more leisurely route to liberation. In fact, you might say, we’ve been “declaring” our “independence” for more than 200 years! Kind of!
"Our style of revolution centered less on bloodshed and guerrilla warfare and more on the time-tested strategy of “not making a fuss.” For example, at the same time you were declaring war on the English monarchy, we were enjoying privileges granted to us by King George in the Treaty of Versailles, which gave us fishing rights off the coast of Newfoundland, provided we not dry or cure fish on land. (And by the way, we later got the right to cure and dry fish on land, thank you very much!)
"All I’m saying here is there is more than one way to skin a cat. Not that I am in any way saying that I would like to harm a cat. Quite the contrary. I like cats. Unless American wants Canada to skin a cat, in which case we will gladly do it.
"The point is we took our time, waiting for The Canadian Moment to arrive, rather than forcing it upon the world. We waited, in the cold, wathcing the U.S., most of Central and South America, Africa and Asia throw off their colonial oppressors. I think it was us and Belize that held out.
"And our patience ultimately paid off, for in the glorious year of 1982, we took the bold step of getting permission from England to amend our constitution so we could amend our constitution — without getting permission from England. Let freedom ring!
"Now the only remants of the tyrannical rule of Queen Elizabeth II are an appointed “Governor General” who represents her in Canadian governmental affairs. And the Queen is still officially our head of state. Plus she’s on all our money. And when we take a government job, we have to swear a loyalty pledge to her. All in all, a small price to pay for an independence achived without bloodshed, violence, glory or independence.
"I’m sorry if this in any way seems like bragging."
Samatha Bee
America: The Book
There are none so blind, as those who will not see.
I think it`s easy to cut the list down by using Biblical sense.
Here is my short list of what I feel should be addressed immediately.
I only have one things on my short list and that is
SPIRITUAL FRAUD.
That`s pretty simple isn`t it?
I believe this is the one issue that bothers me the most.
When the pastor preaches the gospel and does not practice it, follow it, uphold or defend it, I believe he is committing Spiritual Fraud.
When our staff pretends to be righteous men serving GOD and they do the opposite, then I believe they are committing Spiritual Fraud.
I believe the leadership at Bellevue has gone far beyond being LUKEWARM and if they continue to committ Spiritual Fraud with the blessing of the congregation, Bellevue will become a False Church by virture of The Word of God being preached but not executed.
There will be people saved by the Word because it never returns void but the leadership will continue to be a stumbling block to both old and new believers and will pay a dear price for causing so many to fall far from scripture.
Preaching the gospel and not defending it or walking it out, shows an acute lack of Faith and no one can please God without Faith.
I would like to point out that churches can thrive without faith, they can prosper while committing spiritual fraud, they can preach the gospel of Jesus and still continue, IN THIS WORLD, but there will be a PAY DAY SOME DAY!
Think of all the men you know who are not Christians and yet they prosper.
Question:
Who is responsible for the blessed looking life than some non-believers live?
Is it God or the devil?
When a cocaine dealer makes millions of dollars and lives in a fine home and has all the money he needs for anything he wants is GOD blessing him? Is the devil blessing him?
I believe God gives satan the power to bless those who follow him (satan), and permission to constantly tempt with the riches of this earthly life.
We can not equate earthly blessings with a person`s right standing in God, nor should we.
swtt --
I think the last time I got rooked into "you show me yours, I'll show you mine" was in first grade. Interesting the demand for blogger identities from those who insist that they must remain anonymous themselves for various "legitimate" reasons.
Thank you, no.
And my name really is not important. I'm pretty much a nobody at Bellevue, but my thinking represents the overwhelming preponderance of intelligent, informed, and, yes, discerning church members with whom I've discussed the issues.
Custos,
Thanks for the Canadian analogy.
If I may add:
Where would I be today if I had not been the neighbor to the north of a great country that was willing to die for freedom, a country that was willing to take a stand against tyranny, and opression around the world, and a country that wasn't worried about what others had to say about them standing for right.
maybejustmaybe,
What do you have to loose? Surely you don't have business contracts with Bellevue Baptist Church like others.
noemailaddress wrote:
"I know I am repeating myself, but I hope the person who started this www.savingbellevue.com website will answer this question. Why do you not contact www.hispeace.org go to the link at the top of the website that is getting help with a conflict."
One problem. This isn't the www.savingbellevue.com website, and the person who "started" that website isn't here (or at least I'm not he).
I've read a lot of the information on the "Peacemakers" site. In the message boards there were a couple of things that people (who to be fair didn't seem to be with the organization) wrote about and suggested they be entrusted to God to take care of. That's what we keep hearing. Don't hold anybody accountable for anything. Overlook things because God will take care of it. I've no doubt God will take care of everything and everyone, but I don't think He expects us to turn a blind eye to serious sin either.
Here's a quote from the site:
"Our church is presently struggling with a serious internal conflict. Should we try to move ahead with the Peacemaker Church strategy, or should we wait until the smoke has cleared?"
"This would not be a good time to discuss adopting the entire Peacemaker Church strategy, but it would be an excellent time to start applying the basic peacemaking principles set forth in The Peacemaker: A Biblical Guide to Resolving Personal Conflict. You can obtain additional guidance by talking with one of our Senior Ministry Consultants (see the section below on seeking assistance). As your people see you live out biblical peacemaking principles in this situation, they may gain an interest in learning more about peacemaking themselves."
I think perhaps that's where we are right now -- overwhelmed by smoke (and mirrors). I'm not ruling out the possibility of using a service like this. Just making observations about what I read.
allofgrace,
Think maybe Orkin could help us? {humor intended}
maybejustmaybe,
I also have to add, that you are not just a "nobody". You are a "somebody" that God loves so much that he sent His Son Jesus Christ to die for you. Please don't ever think that you are a nobody. I love you maybejustmaybe whoever you are.
That's part of the problem we have at Bellevue. We have leadership by class. We've got to get this mentality changed that God is no respector of persons. God can use the most unlikely person in the most incredible way.
No business contracts with anyone, swtt, church or otherwise. Just a church member. What does it matter? Those members with whom I have discussed the issues know full well who I am and where I stand. You start posting under your name -- I'll think about it. But your continued insistence on my identity and refusal to reveal yours certainly makes me question what YOU have to lose, and why you continue to choose IT over TRUTH.
Hi Maybe,
You do psychoanalysts everwhere a disservice. They'd never take me! (Nor I them for that matter!)
I'm not sure about the
"pseudointellectual woolgathering" because I don't think I've ever laid claim here to being an intellectual. Though if I were, I don't think it would be "pseudo." And I don't think I'd gather wool. There are others around much better at sheering sheep. =)
As far as "systematic theological meanderings" I only own one book on systematic theology and it was a tad dense for me. I prefer a Bible and little common sense.
I agree that my argument isn't iron-clad, that's why I said "In my opinion," "personally," "I think," "Now, I could be totally off here,"
"reminds me of," "like I said, could be wrong," "certainly it’s not all as sinister as," and "there seems perhaps." Those are hardly claims to unsinkability.
You said, "[Based on Custos' argument] Either Dr. Gaines is too dumb to preach a good sermon, OR he's clever as a fox, calculating and exacting to a fault in his strategy to deliberately deceive not only his congregation, but also those who listen to him via the web from graduate school ..."
The two aren't mutually exclusive, but my above qualifiers stand nonetheless. Also, I'm not sure you're second statement about deceit is accurate. Even if he were trying to do what I described, I don't think it's deceit. It's manipulation.
And you asked, "And where may we plumb the depths of YOUR next sermon?"
As for my sermons, I don't have any. It's this whole me not being able to read thing. I think it's holding me back. =)
Best,
Josh
maybejustmaybe said...
swtt --
I think the last time I got rooked into "you show me yours, I'll show you mine" was in first grade. Interesting the demand for blogger identities from those who insist that they must remain anonymous themselves for various "legitimate" reasons.
Thank you, no.
And my name really is not important. I'm pretty much a nobody at Bellevue, but my thinking represents the overwhelming preponderance of intelligent, informed, and, yes, discerning church members with whom I've discussed the issues.
9:31 AM, December 09, 2006
I doubt you know just who you represent unless you have talked to everyone at church, which I doubt.
And I would not brag about represeting a majority of the membership, when we all know the majority of our members are not aware of the sin that has taken over Bellevue`s leadership.
Are there any scriptures to back up the Majority equates the Righteous? NO!
In fact the Majority will be in hell if I remember my Bible correctly.
Hi cJesus,
Thank you for the compliments. Mom is proud when she's not ducking for cover because of our name being out there. Oh well, what's life wihtout a little excitement. =)
Your kiddie meal analgoy is spot on! To each his own certainly, but for my part, I can't figure out how in the world people are getting spiritual food from those sermons. But again, that's just me, you, and David. And since we're on this forum, obviously we're not indwelt with the Holy Spirit! Maybe that's the problem! =)
Cheers,
Josh
Bingo, SWTT.
And the point, somebody's gotten be willing to fight. The US was for the western hemisphere. Dr Rogers was for the SBC. We are for Bellevue. It's a thankless job, and apparently nobody else will do it.
Josh
Does anyone know what time the next communications meeting starts in the morning?
I know Harry Smith said it was over but he's said this is over 5 times now since May of this year.
Do we have to have Harry Smith standing moderating a meeting? Can we meet tomorrow somewhere in the church building. We are all members and we have questions that haven't been asked yet let alone answered.
Does Harry Smith speak for the church? Does anyone know if Harry Smith is an ordained minister? Is he on staff? Does he teach in any hour? If so, let's all go to his class. Let's sit next to him and surround him in the service and love on him in the Name of the Lord. I think he'll find out just how nice we are and he'll come around. Perhaps the scales will start falling before our very eyes.
Back to Jim Whitmire.
Most of us found out about Jim Whitmire`s situation at Bellevue well after Dr. Rogers funeral and we know their was no reconciliation well into the start of this blog, so how does our pastor get up before the congregation and say he apologized to Jim Whitmire the day of Dr. Roger`s funeral?
Anyone who follows the timeline of the Whitmire`s account, knows that Dr. Gaines is trying to make it look like reconciliation had taken place when it had not.
More SPIRITUAL FRAUD????
david said...
at some point, to have reconciliation, you put some things to the Lord for judgment day. You look for the major issues, becuase we all have sin issues and to list them all makes one look petty. Respectfully. In no way is anyone suggesting we downplay sin, just asking: What ist he major issues that need to be dealt with right now?
1:47 AM, December 09, 2006
Ridding the church of WARRENISM is a major issue. This would rid the church of many other troublesome issues such as pastor rule, personality profiling, and entertainment oriented worship services; and stop the painful process of purging the church of people with the "unhealthy baggage of knowing how a church should be run." (Warren's words)
churchmouse,
Amen
Churchmouse said...
david said...
at some point, to have reconciliation, you put some things to the Lord for judgment day
Churchmouse, I don`t believe Matthew 18 calls for anyone to put sin away before it is dealt with in a Biblical manner and I don`t believe the sciptures teach that some sins are overlooked while others are addressed.
If we deal with out sins on a daily basis we are much better off than allowing them to collect until we are finally overtaken with our sins.
When there is a collection of sin it gets harder and harder to humble oneself and go before those we have sinned against to make things right and to God to repent.
It`s like car maintence.
If you ignore changing the oil the next thing you know you will have a much bigger problem and if you ignore the new problem, you will have an ever bigger problem and what once was a quick fix becomes a major overhaul and some would rather keep driving until the motor burns up.
Bellevue`s motor is smoking.
maybejustmaybe said...
... but my thinking represents the overwhelming preponderance of intelligent, informed, and, yes, discerning church members with whom I've discussed the issues.
Response:
I believe that it was majority that crucified Christ. The majority stood at the foot of the cross and mocked Him. Only a few at the foot of the cross wept.
Whoa, I missed this quote earlier from MaybeJustMaybe:
"but my thinking represents the overwhelming preponderance of intelligent, informed, and, yes, discerning church members with whom I've discussed the issues [Manning's emphasis added]."
Maybe, I've no doubt that that statement is true.
tim,
good point. What is it that makes people think that a majority makes right?
Also, a statment such as that is pretty heady, especially when the one saying it has just acussed someone else (ahem) of being a pseudo-intellectual.
Perhaps a blind date's in order, Maybe? We can meet at Bahama Breeze. I'll have a kettle with me. You can bring a pot. ;-)
Just playing, but couldn't resist.
"beye" said:
And I would not brag about represeting a majority of the membership, when we all know the majority of our members are not aware of the sin that has taken over Bellevue`s leadership.
If you would read what I said again, please note I did not say I speak for the majority of the membership. What I said was:
my thinking represents the overwhelming preponderance of intelligent, informed, and, yes, discerning church members with whom I've discussed the issues.
Big difference, wouldn't you agree? Respectfully, please don't try to make my words say something besides what I clearly indicated. I was very deliberate in the words I chose to use in that sentence for that very reason. I do not dare to presume I speak for anyone, and I do not claim to speak for the "majority" of church members -- so please don't be quite so eager to cast me into hell yet, if you don't mind. No humor intended.
Then "beye," you said:
Back to Jim Whitmire.
Most of us found out about Jim Whitmire`s situation at Bellevue well after Dr. Rogers funeral and we know their was no reconciliation well into the start of this blog, so how does our pastor get up before the congregation and say he apologized to Jim Whitmire the day of Dr. Roger`s funeral?
All I know of the Whitmires' situation is the hearsay I have read on this blog. Here's another way to look at it. Please consider. Perhaps Bro. Steve DID apologize to Jim Whitmire the day of Dr. Rogers' funeral as he claims.
And perhaps even after that apology, and even after his now very-public apology to our entire church body for his attitude and actions, there are those (including the Whitmires or not, I have no idea) who still refuse to forgive him. I've said before that a refusal to extend forgiveness is one of the roots -- much like the underlying termite problem allofgrace talked about this morning.
It's all become one big issue of in which camp you choose to pitch your tent.
And by the way ... YES, I was in the majority who crucified Christ. Weren't you?
Allofgrace,
Also, the "spiritual discernment" that mjm speaks of we debated at length yesterday concerning the $25k to FUMC.
The end result is that mjm believe that if the humanitarian efforts do more good than harm that it is a legitimate donation.
Anyone interested can go back and read the blog post. I must add that if this is the feeling of the overwhelming majority of our church that spiritual discernment is dead and moral relativism is alive and well at Belleveue Baptist Church.
QUESTION;
What would be the benefit of forsaking our efforts at this point?
PEACEMAKERS? That gives me shivers.
mjm,
Once I was in the majority that crucified Christ, then I became crucified with Christ.
peaceinthestorm said...
Blessme-
SG has known for some time what the staff member did and the staff member has admitted to the immorality but refuses to step down. They are meeting this week to decide what to do.
7:17 PM, December 06, 2006
If our church doesn`t have the courage to dimiss a staff member who has admitted to sexual immorallity then they are clearly not following scripture.
Peaceinthestorm, how can we know if this has been dealt with in a Biblical manner?
You seem to know all about it so I am asking you if you would tell us what the immortal act was and what action has been taken?
mjm,
For the sake of argument...if there is unforgiveness..it certainly isn't the only termites that need to be dealt with...leadership can attempt to repair the damage by public apologies, CC meetings, etc...but it only makes the surface appear sound...polishing the outside of the cup?...all the while the real problem is still going on underneath..and the EPA (our current church government), has the hands of the church tied so it can't really deal with the underlying problem. Until that changes, the outside can be propped up by psuedo-solutions..but the foundation will be steadily eaten away, till the building is no longer inhabitable.
maybejustmaybe said...
If you would read what I said again, please note I did not say I speak for the majority of the membership. What I said was:
my thinking represents the overwhelming preponderance of intelligent, informed, and, yes, discerning church members with whom I've discussed the issues.
Big difference, wouldn't you agree? Respectfully, please don't try to make my words say something besides what I clearly indicated. I was very deliberate in the words I chose to use in that sentence for that very reason. I do not dare to presume I speak for anyone, and I do not claim to speak for the "majority" of church members -- so please don't be quite so eager to cast me into hell yet, if you don't mind. No humor intended.
Response:
Are you saying that you deliberately choose your words so that they would convey a meaning that you did not intend? Like other arguments that you make it sounds rather double-minded to me.
Tim,
Not to aimlessly pursue an exercise in hair-splitting semantics: I was at Calvary, participating in Jesus' crucifixion. It was my sin that put Him there. I AM crucified with Christ -- present tense, implying an ongoing, continual process that in my case began 41 years ago.
Now to quote our friend Choice, I am going offline -- I have a funeral to attend. Blessings, all.
mjm,
I am glad that you recognize that, however, it was you that chose to aimlessly pursue an exercise in hair-splitting semantics not me.
Those at the cross that wept crucified Christ as well, but at least they had the spiritual discernment to realize it.
maybejustmaybe said...
Tim,
Not to aimlessly pursue an exercise in hair-splitting semantics: I was at Calvary, participating in Jesus' crucifixion
And I am afraid that you are also contributing to the crucifiction of the truth which is like crucifying Jesus all over again.
Please go and find out the facts about the things you have read here instead of carelessly defending issues you have no facts about.
I really feel bad for you because I think you are sincere but just do not realize that you are sincerely wrong about many of the the things you exhaust yourself to defend.
SWTT,
Funny I would decided to pop in this morning, since I've not been around here much lately and have by and large don't post anymore as I've decided it is not profitable for me to engage in debate here.
Thank you for the kind things you said about me, but I do want to clarify something.
You posted "I beleive that Derrick has also thought a lot about his support for Steve Gaines lately."
Please do not mistake my lack of activity here as a lack of support for my Pastor.
No man is perfect, but I believe my pastor has a sincere heart and a deep love for our Lord.
It is my firm conviction that he is God's chosen leader for Bellevue Baptist Church.
I love him. I love his family.
I also love Steve Tucker, Harry Smith, Chuck Taylor and a whole host of other Godly men that get beat up in cyberspace with great frequency.
In His service and yours,
Derrick Calcote
dcalcote@msn.com
DO you also love tne way sin is being celebrated at Bellevue, Derrick?
Derrick, we both know that we disagree on so much in the context of this mess, but I just wanted to let you know again how much I appreciate the spirit in which you write. You conduct yourself in such a meek manner. You set a good example my friend.
Blessings,
Josh
Derrick. do you know anything about a staff person admitting to sexual immorality and refusing to step down as peaceinthestorm posted a few days ago?
Has this been resolved?
If so, what action was taken?
Derrick I have always thought you to be a mild mannered deacon but I still want to know if you will stand up and speak out for the truth. Will you go to Steve Tucker and confront him on his acceptance of staff purchasing alcohol? On what Tim posted about his belief that abortion is not a church issue? On the way he rolled his eyes and made faces when questions were asked at the CC meeting. If you love him, will you make sure he knows that he is offending a great many members of the church and acting contrary to the scriptures.
I would humbly ask that you would for his own sake and for the sake of our church.
Don't worry about a public show of support this Sunday because Chuck Taylor has backed down again. Here is his latest e-mail to the deacons:
Deacon Brothers,
In the December Deacons meeting, we discussed coming forward in the Sunday morning services on December 10 to express our love and support for our Pastor. Since it was uncertain if our Pastor was in favor of this or not, we voted to ask him to decide if we should. I talked with Brother Steve on Tuesday and he said he didn’t want to make that decision or even express an opinion. He asked me to make the decision. Since then, I’ve been praying for God’s direction and talking with several Deacons who are very close to the Pastor and this situation. I know it is our Pastor’s desire to move on and focus all our attention and energies on Jesus and in servicing Him. Last Sunday morning, we heard our Pastor humbly ask the Church to forgive him and the Church responded with a standing ovation in acceptance of his apology. Sunday night Harry Smith and Phil Weatherwax expressed their love and support for our Pastor and once again the Church responded with a standing ovation expressing love and support for him. God blessed in a wonderful way as our Pastor and Congregation reached out to one another. As I prayed about what the Deacons should do, I sense in my spirit that it is time to move on. Deacons coming to the platform to express love and support of our Pastor would be appropriate but I believe it should have been done before now. It’s time to move on. This Sunday begins a new chapter and Deacons should show their love for our Pastor by faithfully serving the Lord Jesus Christ and refusing to have anything to do with people, websites, meetings or conversations that rehash those things that have been proven false or the Pastor has asked forgiveness for. Brothers, it is time to think like and act like Jesus to reach a lost and dying world. Right or wrong, I hope you understand my decision to not go to the platform this Sunday.
Chuck
Derrick,
Were you at the last "CC" meeting. I admit I missed it buyt from all eyewitness accounts accounts your heros <"I also love Steve Tucker, Harry Smith, Chuck Taylor and a whole host of other Godly men that get beat up in cyberspace with great frequency.">Did their share of beating up on the flock.
Custos,
I dont want to repost your essay, would take too much space, but please help me here. Been awhile since I was in school.
Are you saying that the preaching mechanism in question placates the ego by appealing to ones limited understanding of the Bible and panders to ones narcissistic tendencies? A message to the LCD?
Just Trying to Understand - Mark
Hi Telos,
Sorry, I think i'm not being clear. I warned yesterday that I probably woudn't have anything coherent to say for a few days. Looks like I was right.
Muddled as it was, I was trying to say the following: If you want people to get behind you, one way to do that is to make them feel like they're smart. Another is to make them feel like you're both on the same page. By preaching milk and dressing it up like steak with qualifiers like "lot's of people don't agree with this," you can make some people think they're getting steak instead of milk (after all, we've been rightly conditioned to think that crowd is usually wrong).
Also, milk seems to be less controversial, so it's easier to seem like you're on the same page with others when you talk in simplisms. For example, MJM and I may not agree on much here, but if I said, "Man that sun sure did come up today," MJM would certainly agree.
What we may have is a similar situation where the LCD is used to show that everyone agrees with Gaines (how could anyone disagree that the sun rose this morning?!) and at the same time that LCD is dressed up to appear more impressive than it is, leaving many with the impression that they've really gotten something out of the sermon and that they and Dr Gaines are on the same page.
Toss in a pinch of salt, stir, and you've got "Dr Gaines is such a great preacher!"
Again, I'm not at all saying that this is the case. I'm saying it could be. And I'm saying it seems plausable enough to me.
Does that clarify at all? If not, I'll try again later this afternoon.
Best,
Josh
An excert from Chuck Taylor's e-mail:
"This Sunday begins a new chapter and Deacons should show their love for our Pastor by faithfully serving the Lord Jesus Christ and "
"refusing to have anything to do with
PEOPLE,
WEBSITES,
MEETINGS or
CONVERSATIONS
that rehash those things that have been proven false or the Pastor has asked forgiveness for. "
(Captilization added for emphasis.)
Response:
What about the things that have been proven to be true?
Who will address them?
What of the things that forgiveness has not been asked for?
When will the truth be told?
If our deacon body accepts this political double-talk from Chuck Taylor then they are indeed pathetic.
Derrick,
I'm glad to see you back but I warn you to make sure Chuck doesn't know you are on here.
You said,
Please do not mistake my lack of activity here as a lack of support for my Pastor.
No man is perfect, but I believe my pastor has a sincere heart and a deep love for our Lord.
It is my firm conviction that he is God's chosen leader for Bellevue Baptist Church.
I love him. I love his family.
I also love Steve Tucker, Harry Smith, Chuck Taylor and a whole host of other Godly men that get beat up in cyberspace with great frequency.
swtt said:
I agree with every word you just said.
Have a nice day. We love you.
Derrick,
I just realized that you cannot answer my question because your fearless leader,has directed you to stay away from this blog"Deacons should show their love for our Pastor by faithfully serving the Lord Jesus Christ and refusing to have anything to do with people, websites, meetings or conversations that rehash those things that have been proven false or the Pastor has asked forgiveness for. ".MMMM Now surely you had these commands before this morning. You are disobeying the man you love and respect, yet you expect us to follow their commands and edicts. I guess you don't object to double standards, as long as they work to your advantage.
Custos,
You made it more clear for me.
I have one quick question for you and I am out the door. This questions comes from your second essay about Canada.
Have you read any of Eldredge?
Lastly, I agree with those who state that you raise the level of discourse. I enjoy reading and thinking about your posts. I wish you a great day!
YBIC - Mark
beyereconciled & peaceinthestorm,
Please e-mail me at the address in the profile.
Thanks,
NBBCOF
custos,
Political strategist have used these methods for years.
1 We are the same (I am a person just like you.)
2 We believe the same (the sky is blue).
3 I am with you (support me and then you’ll see).
4 We agree on tough issues (like the color of milk).
5 We have the support of the entire whatever (deacon body).
Does it seem odd to anyone else that they are the prevalent theme of our church today?
A NEW THREAD HAS BEEN STARTED RE THE LATEST "CHUCK TAYLOR" LETTER. THIS ONE'S GETTING PRETTY LONG.
NBBCOF
Tim,
Cha-ching. Exactly.
Telos,
Thank you, and the feeling is mutual.
As for Eldridge, I read a bit of Wild at Heart a few years back (I'm notoriously bad about picking books up and not finishing them). I liked some of what he was saying--we certainly emasculate men, and Jesus in particular. But I thought he went too far (to the extent that I read, so this may be quite unfair).
Reading his impression of Jesus left me thinking that he hit on something long minimized, but then took that something and maximized it. It seemed like his attempt to put masulenity back in perspective actually overshot its goal and created a similar problem on the other end of the spectrum. Similar to the difference between not being able to read something across the room and not being able to read that something when it's half and inch from your nose. Both perspectives keep you from understanding the big picture.
But that's just me. One way or the other, we need more Christians with both love and spines combined into one.
What do you think?
Best,
Josh
CH said...
Rhetorical question for all:
Why do you think most churches become 501c3 non-profit corporations? Among other things, to make sure they get that all-important IRS tax-deductibility for their tithers.
How many less-than-completely committed churchgoers would continue tithing if it suddenly was no longer tax deductible?
Well, we do. Our home is paid for and we do not have enough deductions to itemize. Giving isn't about IRS deductions!!!
Adrain taught us something like this, "Anyone who would let a Jew give more under Law than a Christian under Grace is a disgrace to Grace". I am sure that is not his exact quote, but I believe I've captured the essence of it.
We give where we are fed; also to widows and orphans and the homeless.
Question: Why do we have a surplus of $25 mil? I can understand having a reserve for emergencies, but this amount seems like a bit much! I'm not sure why we are having love offerings to build new buildings.
Just wondering.
Custos said:
"Reading his impression of Jesus left me thinking that he hit on something long minimized, but then took that something and maximized it. It seemed like his attempt to put masculinity back in perspective actually overshot its goal and created a similar problem on the other end of the spectrum. Similar to the difference between not being able to read something across the room and not being able to read that something when it's half and inch from your nose. Both perspectives keep you from understanding the big picture.
But that's just me. One way or the other, we need more Christians with both love and spines combined into one."
"What do you think?"
Best,
Josh
Hi Josh,
I would really like to spend some more time and answer this in a specific way. Perhaps I will and I will have NASS forward it to you. But let me say that I agree with much of what you have shared as it relates to Eldredge.
I do believe that a form of legalism currently exists in the church, the degree and flavor varies from congregation to congregation. I believe that this legalism manifests itself in formula. Moreover, this adherence to formula or law without the guidance of the Holy Spirit has left both men and women wounded. One can see this malady of sorts when watching a bad actor on TV. That is, they know words but there is no connection to what is being said. As Edredge points out - people have lost all sense of romance in their relationship to God. What He wants for us. How He has made us. I find this sad and pervasive not only in the church but also with our goal oriented society. It has left many without heart and spine. Within this, I agree Eldredge has hit on something enormous but has expressed it in an adolescent fashion, and perhaps naturally so.
You know, Dr. Rogers certainly had a balance of both law and Spirit. The Law never suffocated, it only seemed to invigorate him. I have seen this quality in other pastors as well.
I hope this sheds some light on my thoughts, however there is so much that has been left on the table. My brother, I dont know if this is the forum to discuss this? However, the parallels one can draw are interesting. Let me continue to think about it and get back to you.
Cordially - Mark
From Gardendale Forum
2108. Gaines at Bellevue
by bryantboy, 12/8/06 18:07 ET
One of you said "The reason he is having trouble there now is because he is preaching straight from the Word and that bothers a lot of people."
You must not know anything about Bellevue and you know little about Steve Gaines. Bellevue Baptist Church had the most outstanding preacher I have ever heard--Dr. Adrian Rogers. I have listened to him on the radio and watched him on television for years. Those people in Memphis heard the Word preached like no other congregation in America for 30 years. It was either Billy Graham or Dr. Dobson who called Adrian Rogers the best preacher since the Apostle Paul, high praise from either of those men.
Steve Gaines' problems have nothing to do with preaching the Word, people at Bellevue expect nothing less. Steve Gaines problem is Steve Gaines.
Some people only knew Steve based on his sermons. I am a deacon at GFBC and I knew the real Steve Gaines. I have read what is going on in Memphis. All I can say is God help them and I am not surprised. Many at GFBC know the truth about Steve and they are no more surprised than I am. Anyone remember what he did to our minister of music?
Steve believes in checking tithes. I want to clear that up for you. Nevermind giving is between the giver and God. To Steve it's between the giver, God, and Gaines.
I've talked to a cousin at Belleuve and it looks like Steve caught a tiger by the tail this time. He said they've got some godly men who won't back down and knuckle under. They know their Bibles too. He may not make it.
It may be of interest to post some "Gainisms". Here is one I thought particularly interesting:
"If you have an aversion to the supernatural, then Christianity may not be for you." (9:30 AM Worship Service 12/11/06) By the way, I wasn't the only one who heard this quote. Someone else also mentioned it to me as well as my having heard it.
What about passages like John 3:16,
1 Peter 3:9, 1 John 2:2.
Everyone of us are classified as unbelievers before coming to Christ. Did Jesus not die for everyone and wants everyone to come to repentence? So if someone has an aversion to the supernatural, may our great and awesome God grant them repentence.
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