The latest: On 12-27 we received this.
You know, sometimes you receive an e-mail that is so incredible and so unbelievable, that it deserves its own 15 minutes of fame. I've received a series of e-mails from a woman who identified herself as "SendTheLight50," aka Billie, that is unlike anything I've ever read. (I won't publish her last name here in the interest of privacy.) I've been accused by some of suppressing the ideas of those whose ideas aren't in line with those of the "anti-Bellevue" crowd, so in the interest of openness and fairness, I hereby give "SendTheLight50" the stage.
She first wrote me on 11-25-06, apparently in response to the Purpose Driven thread, but didn't sign her name. Here are those exchanges.
I thought that would be the end of it, but on 12-19-06 I received these letters which had also been cc'd to a long list of people along with the request they be forwarded to as many people as possible.
This was Karen's response to "SendTheLight50" the next day. (Reprinted with Karen's permission.)
That same day I (and a lot of other people) received this.
On 12-22 even more people received this.
On 12-23 we all received this.
On Christmas Day, we received this.
On 12-26 we received this.
As I stated last week I have no intention of responding to any more of these letters.
Note: I would like to ask that any comments be directed at this person's comments and not at her personally. Try to keep the discussion focused on ideas, not personalities.
Subscribe to:
Post Comments (Atom)
421 comments:
«Oldest ‹Older 201 – 400 of 421 Newer› Newest»Karen, I have no hard feelings for you at all. I understand that sometimes when we are "riled" up, the brain sometimes adds words or meaning into what we read. Even though I have not checked my email yet, I do appreciate the reply.
No one on this blog speaks for me except me. I have no leader on this blog I am following or relying on. I am deeply concerned about the BBC membership and how this is starting to take on a "your side/my side" feeling. I have said before that I hope there is a conclusion that everyone can be happy with, but somehow I doubt that will happen. I feel that some people will feel lead to find another church to call home, and some will stay at BBC. either way I pray that they are following their hearts and not feeling like they have been defeated or lost the fight.
I told my wife that if SG does resign, it had better be because the Lord laid that on his heart. If he is "run off" by people, then my family will not stay at the church. It is not my decision as to who God puts in the pulpit, it is God's alone.
4545 wrote:
"This blog and others outside have shed false light on many different issues and raised doubts in some members/non-members minds. That is the main reason for any decrease in attendance."
Oh please! (rolls eyes) What a load of _______ (reader's choice). Please define "false light". How is light "false"? Have you been to a BBC Communications Committee word-spinning seminar? Sure sounds like it.
As for winter camp, it was BECAUSE SG was going to be the speaker that we wouldn't let our son go. We had some - shall we say - intensive discussions with our 10th grader about it.
My wife has known Phil Newberry since his days at First Baptist Dallas. She went to talk to him about the Wednesday night atmosphere at Exit 15 - lights turned down, music turned up, dry ice used at least once for additional effect (she went to one of the Wed night services before going to talk to him). Phil told her that some of the kids were intimidated to sing and that turning the lights down help to get them to participate!! She was blown away at such a ridiculous response. She told him that it reminded her of a nightclub atmosphere and he "claimed to not know about that". Does it really take having to be in one to have a general idea of a "nightclub atmosphere"? In Phil's defense, he did say he was working on getting the noise level down. Not sure if it's happened yet or not.
so we have a former minister who broke the law and had to leave, is that it.
I heard the same name as you did.
Who is doing our screening at Bellevue?
4545,
I have a child in sr. high and i did not let him go on this trip simply becuase i do not want him around SG. When SG falls, and he will, I fear that he will cause my young, impressionalble son to falter in his own faith. The further away I can keep my son from SG, the better. I am not alone in this.
SG is not the kind of man that I want my son to look up to. He is selfish, self-centered, egotistical,narcisstic, unstable, quick to anger, and above all else, he is a criminal.
If he is no longer on staff I do not see any benefit of dragging out anything about what he might or might not have done. Let's not take him and his family out public please.
AOG,
I just listened to the recommended Henry Mahan sermon. Industrial strength is an understatement. Our entire congregation should listen. I weep for anyone who listens and does not come away indicted.
ilovebbc, I read Nonames post the same way you did!
onlyamember,
You are soo right about SG being the camp pastor. It's almost as though he wants to stir up as much controversy as possible, to keep a spirit of confusion going in every direction.
I'm no Bible Scholar, but i do know this one thing: This is not of God.
Memphis said...
If he is no longer on staff I do not see any benefit of dragging out anything about what he might or might not have done. Let's not take him and his family out public please.
Memphis, I believe the point is that these are not isolated issues at BBC. There is a pattern of how the New BBC deals with these issues. It is not about truth, but how it makes SG look.
Can someone please tell me if they have any factual information on who our current BBC Board of Directors Chairman is? Has BBC yet dealt with the current situation there?
bbcrefugee, I agree with FG. SInce it has been dealt with, I do not see any benfit of what he might have done or not done being on this website. It looks like it has been dealt with and I personally do not see why he and his fmaily should be brought out on the website for all to see.
We must all understand that many of our friends my be on the church staff or in leadership. If they are or have ben a part of the problem, I'm sorry but all must be uncovered.
Please explain to me why it's okay to ask questions about one person's alleged indiscretions, but not another's. It's apparently all right to put one staff member's business on the blog "for all the world to see," but not another's. In the constant din for honesty and transparency in all things, how is this fair?
Ok folks, another chapter for those of you interested:
On 12/27/06, SendTheLight50 wrote:
Josh,
First I want to say that out of curiosity I went to your prestigious web site of gossip today after hearing that you so graciously are printing all of my letters. However you stated in your first comment that you would not write to me. Now, Josh tell the people the truth you broke your promise. Now, I also want to say that I laughed as I read my own letters containing so many incorrect words and spelling. (This is what happens when I get into a hurry) So those who are laughing come on over and I'll laugh with you. (No problem) This also goes to show that God himself has a sense of humor by allowing you all to be so upset over the mail of a little old grandma who is no threat to anyone. I say often, "If God can use a donkey He can also use me" I am just as shocked as anyone that He said, "OK" and you have given me the encouragement to keep on standing up for Jesus and it doesn't matter how I am dressed, how well I can sing or my lack of long list of accomplishments. I have stated that I am truly sorry for the roll that I have found myself in, but I know without a shadow of doubt that I am in the complete will of the Father and that is all that matters to me. I am not the first to come forward and stand for Jesus who was not a highly educated well rehearsed speaker and theologian. You would do well to study history and even the speech of Dr. R. G. Lee. I am, who I am in the Lord, and I wish that all new Jesus Christ as I know him, then you would not have your web site up and going and you would not desire to come out of your closet where we all can find Him when we go there. I have been there today for years and He called me out to talk to you and to your people and say to you that He loves you and He desires for you to go into a closet and spend time with Him. If you should, you may also find that when you come out you will be applauded instead of stoned. By the way wasn't Dr. Gaines warmly received by a hosts of supporters and wasn't it you who told me that if our congregation voted you and your supporters out of our midst that I would be standing alone. If not you, it was Jim Haywood.
Thank you for giving this older, less educated, but wiser woman a few minutes of fame. I know it was a divine appointment by God.
Prayerfully, after all believers are repentant and come together, we can learn to laugh about all of this junk and that is exactly what it is!
We do love you and I personally am praying for you to become an example of the Apostle Paul in our day, after the stoning of Stephen. Read the story and you can see Dr. Gaines face glowing from true humility and spending time with Jesus not with gloating and smiles as your was when you were displaying your face for all Christians to observe. I would worry if someone was patting me on the back saying, "We are proud of you"
P. S. Josh if you print this letter entirely in your web site I will gain a little speck of respect for you.
Dear Ms ______,
I find myself again needing to clarify what you wrote in your last email which circulated incorrect information to numerous people.
I have no editorial power over the newbbcopenforum. It isn't mine, and I don't have any control over the content of the site. I didn't post any of your letters because I don't have the power to post anything on that blog; I only have the power to comment. Please fact check before you publish anything as fact. If I'm not positive about something, I will clarify that before I post it. You have gotten numerous facts incredibly wrong but have never clarified that they were unsubstantiated or that you regretted your missteps. How can one who purports to stand, nearly alone, for Jesus behave in this manner? Further, how does the sarcasm you speak with (which is completely unwarranted given its misdirection toward me) advance your, or Christ's, interest?
I don't remember telling you "[I] would not write to [you]." You may be referring to a comment on the blog in which I said I would not post your response unless you gave me your permission. I did not post that response, and of course, I have not broken any promise.
I find it curious that you are sorry for the role you play here, characterized by you as standing against the great theologians and the wealthy, but you've not said that you're sorry for any of the false statements you've peddled as fact.
Ma'am, I agree that God can use a donkey, but that doesn't mean there's anything so great about being a donkey--or about emulating one.
Finally, ma'am, I don't question your wisdom or whether it's greater than mine. I think your wisdom speaks for itself, and nothing I say could enhance or distort what wisdom you possess.
I hope that this clarifies the details from your last message. I'll be glad to post this as a comment per your seeming request.
Respectfully submitted,
Josh Manning
Maybejustname,
Respectfully, (meaining I am not goinig to argue about this, but the perception of many is) it starts looking like a "witchhunt", and I have never said I thought it was fair to air anyones every move on the website.
Funny, memphis, I agree with you. However, we need to apply that principle across the board, even to Bro. Steve. Would you not agree?
Maybe,
Yes It appears we are in agreement. I think I got alittle to "riled up" and did not totally understand your point. I thought you were saying we should air everyones actions we know about vs what you really meant. I apologize for the misunderstanding on part. But yes, I agree!
Hang on a minute - without dragging out another name, are you saying a minister was let go because of losing his temper, but Steve Gaines let a self-acknowledged pedophile/child molestor/rapist stay on the payroll? Lord, help us!
How many mistakes of the mind, not the heart will it take before Steve Gaines is no longer qualified to lead our church?????
How can people submit to his authority when he throws it around at his whim? I'm just sick again!
karen
Thanks, memphis. Yes, you got my point. In my opinion, it's counterproductive for it to even appear to matter from which side of the fence the questions are being asked.
Sounds like maybe the loss of temper must have led to a criminal act. That's what I'm trying to get someone to answer with factual information. Obviously someone knows, or it wouldn't have been thrown out there. Takers?
memphis and justmaybe,
I think I agree with you - this shouldn't be a "witchhunt", but if issues come up that haven't been fully disclosed or discussed by BBC leadership, isn't it up to those who know what the issue actually is to dispense the correct information? Unfortunately, this blog came into existance due to lack of information or wrong information from the leadership and/or the pulpit.
karen
morepatientthanyou said...
Calvinisim is a satanic cult.
Wow, and the "pre 12/21 Mike Bratton called the anti-Bellevue crowd as prone to "inflammatory gernade throwing".
Also, When did the "truthseeker/sheeple" debate turn into the "Pro-Calvin/anti Calvin" camps?
I must have been snoozing a lot over Christmas!
Friend,
The sad fact of the matter is that NO BBC is not truly congregation approved. 3 or 4k people raising their hands with 100 or 200 not raising their hands equals 100% support according to SG.
onlyamember,
It's not a stupid question, it's a very valid question. Here's the ministers I can think of that have left since Steve Gaines came:
Jim Whitmire
Randy Redd
David Smith
Carey Vaughn
Rob Mullins
David Powell
Craig Parker
Who's running the church?
karen
Karen,
The more potent question would be
Who's running OFF the church?
ju,
Good point - my last question was kind of rhetorical, don't you think?
:)
karen
ilovebbc said...
Noname, are you saying that you knew Paul raped his son in 2003. Maybe I've misunderstood what you said but if that's what you meant, why did you not report it?
No way! did I know he did that! It was not even a thought in my mind. If I knew he did that I would not keep silent. I want all BBC trouble to end. Why don't people in BBC authority stop them from hurting people, how ever they hurt people? They just don't care. Alot of authority people are like that they have to know you to care. I hate it when people hurt people.
Exactly what facts are you waiting for other than the admitted lapses in judgement that SG has put out to the church? Are you waiting to hear what degree of molestation it was? Are you waiting for a better explanation of why SG waited? I'll admit to you that we can't on one hand accept PW's word when it suits us and on the other hand condemn him when we feel like it. So I'll take that arguement completely from you. AR is dead and gone. He can't answer for any deed rightly or wrongly now. So what he would have done or wouldn't have done is of no consequence at this point. What SG did and will answer for is of utmost consequence.
Hey AOG,
At 1:57pm "morepatientthanyou" lobbed at fat one at you. I would step up to the plate but I am trying to finish reading a "silly book" written by a "silly man."
I will make one small point. I seek to become educated by the whole counsel of the Word. I do not elevate emotions and subjective experience over the mind and over the legitimate authority of Scripture.
Burning bushes and theophanies of all stripes, tablets carved by the finger of God, and talking donkeys seem to have gone by the wayside in our day. Apart from His Word, how, praytell, does, Abba Father educate a man?
Oh and the theological system in question is dispenSATIONALISM. Like Calvinism, however, dispensationalism has no bearing on the Bellevue crisis. Dispensationalists as well as adherents to Covenant Theology are on both sides of this issue.
Someone please tell me where the line forms for the Calvinists' reprimand. I can't wait to see this.
morepatientthanyou said...
...you are willing to crucify SG, without knowing all of the facts.
when I read this, I immediatly pictured you and sendthelight50 saying... "I am willing to give SG a free pass, and please don't confuse me with the facts"
maybejustmaybe said...
Sounds like maybe the loss of temper must have led to a criminal act. That's what I'm trying to get someone to answer with factual information. Obviously someone knows, or it wouldn't have been thrown out there. Takers?
Maybe,
Is this just a red herring to get us off discussing of the pastor's alleged lawbreaking? Both incidents of lawbreaking i might add.
bellevue friend,
I don't know about the 51%, but I do know I'm waiting on God to take this whole thing out of our (bloggers, members, deacons, other leadership, Steve Gaines) hands and show us HE is GOD! They only way BBC won't split in two is if God works this out in such a way that no one will be able to say who's "fault" it was, or who "ran him off" or anything else except "GOD DID IT". I truly believe there is a miracle brewing for BBC if we take our hands off and let God do what he wants to do.
karen
morepatientthanyou,
Hmmm, i'm struck by the irony that calvanism really really bothers and offends you, but pedofelia doesn't seem to bother you at all, or the crime of covering it up.
Wonder why.
Bellevue Friend said...
Do you think…..
1.There will be a Business meeting?
Absolutly not.
2.Do you think Gaines could get 51%?
Absolutly. Probably closer to 70%, no matter what he gets caught doing. (And the same people will vote for him that "cluck cluck" their tounges about Ricky Peete and John Ford continually being reelected I might add)
3.Is there a chance he will out right resign…before a meeting could be called?
Are you serious??..Ha ha ha...oh, you are...Absolutly Not.
FinanceGuy said...
maybejustmaybe said...
Sounds like maybe the loss of temper must have led to a criminal act. That's what I'm trying to get someone to answer with factual information. Obviously someone knows, or it wouldn't have been thrown out there. Takers?
Maybe,
Is this just a red herring to get us off discussing of the pastor's alleged lawbreaking? Both incidents of lawbreaking i might add.
2:38 PM, December 27, 2006
FG, I didn't bring it up. I'm not in the herring business. Just looking for factual information. It was someone else who threw it out there. Onthetrail, I think.
morepatientthanyou,
If you are going to stick with your 1,000 in attendance Wednesday night then nothing you said can be taken seriously. The parking lot was spooky empty for a Wednesday night service and the crowd was somewhere between 3oo and 45o. If you are going to throw out numbers for the sake of throwing them out, then we'll just have to call you SG's. Numbers have been pumped up with him as well with no problem about accuracy. Also, the sanctuary does not hold 8,000. It's closer to 7,200 including the choir seats.
maybe
FG, I didn't bring it up. I'm not in the herring business. Just looking for factual information. It was someone else who threw it out there. Onthetrail, I think.
If only you were as concerned about factual information about Senior Pastors, ministers still on staff (PW), Board of Directors chairmen who have more serious and recent allegations and charges against them, then you might have more credibility.
(A disgusted FG)
swtt..et al
For the last time, there were at LEAST 500 people there Wed night, and probably a number north of that. Maybe even 1k. I don't know, but IT DOESN'T MATTER if it was 1 person or 10,000. (Unless you are Harry "I don't know" Smith or Chuck "the numbers are up so what's the problem?" Taylor.) What's wrong is wrong and what's right is right regardless of the number of people on each side!
-FG(Thinking he's the only sane person left on the planet)
Why is my credibility suddenly in question? And who says I'm not concerned about the other issues? You might want to think about posting a little factual information yourself. You do not know me.
I am gravely concerned about the issues (and yes, I'll call it SIN) facing our church and potentially destroying it. I think I've made that abundantly clear. I've made several attempts to meet several of you "in the middle," only to be immediately blasted and blindsided by someone else. My greatest SIN (in the eyes of many here) is obviously that I love my pastor and I believe in his integrity, and I think what many of you (notice I didn't say "all" of you) are doing to him and his family is shameful.
I am disgusted, as well.
Arguing over numbers? You slam SG saying he is only concerned with numbers, but yet people argue over the numbers in attendance on Wed night?
I saw the news footage and it did look light, but I do not htink it has ever been packed on a Wed night, and I believe the Holiday season may have had something to do with the attendance.
Also if a former minister is no longer on staff, wouldn't that suffice to say he was dealt with? And no matter what is said either way it will still affect/effect (whichever it is) his family.
maybejustmaybe,
I'm sorry, but for you to believe in the integrity of a man who would tresspass and then get the congregation to laugh at his sin and lawbreaking, and worse, to give refuge to a pedafile, is just wrong.
What would it take for this man to lose his integrity in your eyes. If harboring a pedofile doesn't do it, nothing will. If he had done nothing else until he hid the pedafile, that would be enough for me. You obviously do not understand pedofelia and the effect it has on its' victims. You stop and think for just one second the horror of his son, enduring being raped by his father.
And then think about how Steve Gaines was not particularly offended by it. And here's another newsflash for you...there is no such thing as a reformed pedofile. They only get worse with time. If they get the chance, they will molest a child.
Now i want to hear you defend allowing him to be unsupervised amoung the children at bbc.
Yours is blind faith, and is cult-like.
I don't drink the kool aid. I see things for what they are.
maybejustmaybe said...
Why is my credibility suddenly in question?
It isn’t “suddenly” in question.
And who says I'm not concerned about the other issues?
Are you?
You might want to think about posting a little factual information yourself.
What have I not posted that’s factual? Aren’t I sitting here trying to suppress rumor and gossip?
You do not know me.
Let’s go to lunch.
I am gravely concerned about the issues (and yes, I'll call it SIN) facing our church and potentially destroying it. I think I've made that abundantly clear.
What Sin are you talking about?
I've made several attempts to meet several of you "in the middle," only to be immediately blasted and blindsided by someone else.
What do you call “the middle”? I’m not aware of the middle between right and wrong, day and night. Educate me.
My greatest SIN (in the eyes of many here) is obviously that I love my pastor
Not a sin. The right thing for a church to do. However, it’s how he’s returned that love that’s shameful. I’ve addressed that in a previous comment in another thread.
.. and I believe in his integrity,
Just give me one example of how he has shown integrity
and I think what many of you (notice I didn't say "all" of you) are doing to him and his family is shameful.
What he has done to many people’s families is shameful…both individually and corporately by his polarizing behavior and presence.
I am disgusted, as well.
And you should be.
I take it you do not accept his apology for jumping over the fence?
Hasn't Mark Sharp forgiven him? (I really do not know, so I am asking from MS to reply to this)
Here are a few important changes that would help during these days of crisis in leadership:
I. Pastoral Accountability to the Congregation:
1. A business meeting in accord with Matthew 18 to deal with the issues that remain related to Mark Sharpe and "the Dream"... and any other loose ends that should have been dealt with months ago!!
2. The giving records of the membership and the ministers on staff at Bellevue should never be for pastoral review in any shape, form, or fashion.
3. No church credit cards.
4. An admission Dr. Gaines should have never given $25k to FUMC and an explanation of policy changes to prevent a repeat.
5. A policy for open books on Holy land trips and no overcharging of members. Free tickets for the host and wife are fine but not for anybody else.
6. Full disclosure of ministerial compensation: salary + benefit breakdown, etc.
7. Timely removal from office of ministers guilty of sexual immorality with immediate and timely coordination with the appropriate authorities if any laws have been broken by a minister (no matter how long ago), including thorough investigation of the matter when the minister’s conduct may have affected other church members or their children.
II. Congregational Church governance:
Some of the congregation has awakened to the reality that our church has a set of "lay-elders," a close knit group of men who manage to be appointed to key positions year after year. The rest of the congregation needs to be awakened.
1. Those who are part of this lay-elder "power block" need to step down from positions of influence for a long time. Bellevue needs “new blood” in these key positions.
2. There needs to be the signing of a public conflict of interest form for any member that has any business contract to provide services for the church. These people should not be allowed to serve on committees that review bids for their services.
3. Congregational nomination of and election of all of the Board of Directors as called for in the 1929 bylaws.
4. A quarterly business meeting with open mike Q&A with each committee chairman. **The current bylaws mention "monthly" business meetings! When were they changed??
5. A good updated set of bylaws similar to GBC.
6. A transparent committee selection process.
7. Much greater congregational oversight of the current budget with a transparent policy for consideration of non-budgeted expenditures exceeding a reasonable amount.
8. Thorough communication with the Congregation for ANY capital project well in advance of any vote. Building prayer buildings or any other type of building should be brought through proper channels to the congregation for prayerful consideration--not coerced "rubber stamping." [By the way, Dr. Rogers taught us quite a bit about prayer. As a matter of fact, I believe all of the current buildings ARE prayer buildings already. He and Dr. Whitmire also taught us quite a bit about worship also... but that's another topic].
9. Bellevue needs to reject Warrenism fully and finally.
10. Higher standards should be put in place for the hiring of "ministers." Seminary training should be considered a normal prerequisite.
III. Treatment of ministers on staff at BBC and members:
1. A whistle blower policy for ministers, staff, and members.
2. The end of heavy handed dealing with ministers, staff, and members; and the end of signing non-disclosure statements. All ministers who have been pressured or asked to sign such non-disclosure statements should be released from them in writing by BBC! Former staff should be allowed to address the congregation and/or the deacon body either in writing or in person without any fear of reprisal regarding their exit from BBC. Gaines has confessed to mishandling Dr. Whimire's exit... The congregation now needs to hear from Dr. Whimire--and several others--by letter or in person IN THEIR OWN WORDS. The congregation needs to know how their leadership has treated and is treating ministers who leave the service of our Lord through BBC.
3. Forgiveness for those in leadership who have allowed this to deteriorate to this point--AND consequences for their actions.
All in my opinion as usual.
We are to be “providing things honestly in the sight of all men” (Rom. 12:17). Revival, reform, congregational oversight... for there is level ground at Calvary and "he who would be great among you shall be the servant of all."
Finance,
I believe the "middle" that mjm is referring to is actually the Moral Relativism that has invaded our church. Where SIN is no longer really SIN it's just a shade of gray in a spectrum of moral mental and physical indiscretions.
Memphis,
If I stole your car I have integrity in your eyes even if I got down on my knees and prayed to God with you over it and then apologized to you face to face? Would you trust me again to not steal your car? Maybe in time you would but surely not immediately. A crime is a crime trespassing or stealing. If you see it otherwise then see my moral relativism post.
maybejustmaybe
And it doesn't offend you that pw was allowed to counsel with children's workers/volunteers if they had been sexually abused. It doesn't seem to offend you, but take heart, it didn't offend your false god, either.
25+,
Thanks for reposting the list. I believe that the Bible has many things to say concerning the governance of the church. It specifically list qualifications for ministers, deacons and laymen. It specifically addresses the administration of financial matters within the church and the New Testament ministers removed themselves from that responsibility. The Bible also specifically addresses issues of accountability. Why should we act differently today than they did then? For those that may argue that times have changed, I submit that Christ has not and if the church is build upon the foundation of Christ then the church should not change either.
Go back and read my posts, fedup. I am a rape victim. I have friends and yes, family members, who have been victims of pedophilia.
It has not been proven to my satisfaction that Bro. Steve "harbored" a pedophile. His report (and I choose to believe him) is that PW's sin happened 17 years ago and he had been in counseling ever since. Until the church's official report comes out, or DCS issues a statement and charges someone with child rape and/or failure to report, I will not malign the character of my pastor over this. I simply refuse. I honor his choice to issue grace to a brother. Was it poor judgment in the eyes of the law? Apparently so. But, the law has changed of late, and it is understandable (to me) that Bro. Steve might not have known that he was under a compulsory mandate to report this. He may have believed that, as he has had clerical immunity from being forced to report such things for most of his ministry, that such standards still applied. He also has not disclosed everything he knows about this situation, nor has anyone else. Unfortunately, it will probably all come out at some point, and more damage will be done. I believe it is PW's sin, not Bro. Steve's, that will be to blame for that.
I have a child in the preschool ministry at Bellevue. Not once have I felt my child was in danger because of PW's having been left on staff. I realize that none of us (or few of us) really knew what he was capable of, but I do not feel my child was ever threatened.
Furthermore, I do not believe that our church's teenagers will be harmed by attending church camp with their own pastor as their camp minister. I give him, and them, more credit than that.
I am willing to accept that most of you who post here do not hold my views, and I can even say that it's fine with me that you don't. What I can't understand is that you so dogmatically refuse to believe that anyone else is entitled to believe differently without being called a pedophile-lover or a kool-aid drinker!! If you want a church that is made up of nothing but people just like you, then Bellevue will probably never be what you want. But then how can you be comfortable with a God who gives grace like our God does?
As for the comment made yesterday by mom4 regarding being taught that we are "fruit inspectors," I have heard that for years, as well. I don't think it's scriptural. The Bible does say "by their fruits, you shall know them," but it was Jesus who cursed the fig tree, not man. The picture I get from many of you is that Jesus is strolling through the orchard, examining the fruits of our lives and the lives of others, but He's constantly hearing the cries of those who believe they are called to be His assistants, saying, "Lord, there's some really rotten fruit over here!" He doesn't need our help -- He sees every bit of the fruit in our lives, and it saddens me that much of what He sees is rotten to the core. BUT -- the fruit inspecting business is His, not ours.
My attempt to get information on the minister who has quit is not because I am salaciously drooling over the prospect of finding out dirt on someone else whom I love and respect. I do not relish that thought one whit, and it grieves me to think that he and his family are going to be hurt by any of this. It was simply to point out that universal standards need to apply to the "work" we are doing here. If it's okay to dig for facts on one person, why not on another? No one has answered for that double standard yet, have they?
Ju, I read your post, but have accepted his apology?
If you stole my car, I would file a report on you and still forgive you, but I do not think I would keep bringing it up over and over if I had forgiven you for it.
Yes, we all are aware that he jumped a fence, Yes he admitted to it, yes he asked for forgiveness, all I was asking is have people really forgiven him?
Hi Bellevue,
I have spent the last couple of hours catching-up. I want to clear something up for everyone. Dr. Rogers did ask Steve Gaines to resign. Last week some of you said this was a lie. You were wrong. It is the gospel truth. Call Mrs. Rogers and ask her yourself if you do not believe it. Our staff have known about this for a year.
fedupatbbc said...
maybejustmaybe
And it doesn't offend you that pw was allowed to counsel with children's workers/volunteers if they had been sexually abused. It doesn't seem to offend you, but take heart, it didn't offend your false god, either.
As one who's been abused (not by a family member, but by an ex) it totally disgusts me to know these people PW counseled were just a pawn in PW's sick sexual game. PW got off on this sick game - don't fool yourself - pedophiles and sickos will do anything to get their "ick fix". If you don't believe me, ask my ex-husband or any abuser - they'll do or say anything to make you a pawn in their game. Steve Gaines should apologize to everyone PW has contact with in that 6 month period - all Steve Gaines did was allow a pedophile make more memories to get off on.
bellevue friend
....then why are you here?
As I've stated before, Edmund Burke said that "evil only triumphs when good men do nothing"
More recently, I'll paraphrase Dr. Rogers at the SBC those many years ago..
"We don't have to get along.."
"I don't have to be a member of BBC.."
"I don't have to live..."
"but I will not compromise the Word of God"
When the time comes that my continued attendance at BBC requires me compromising The Faith, or putting the spiritual health of my family at risk, then you've seen me there for the last time, and I will shake the dust from my shoes when I leave. It saddens me that a deacon or even my own Sunday School teacher might come up to me and tell me "Good, then go". It saddens me that people who’ve I’ve considered closer than family would then consider me a leper. Better people than me have paid higher costs than I will be asked too in that case. I can imagine Tyndal and others just grinning at us considering ourselves persecuted. However, it’s true what they say, “the Christian army is the only army in the world that bayonets it’s own wounded.”
Fortunately, the God I serve is much bigger than Bellevue Baptist Church. I know it’s hard for people with “Bellevue pride” to realize, but in the overall kingdom of God, Bellevue isn’t more than a “flick of a whisper”.
Thanks for your prayers and support.
Thank you, FG, for proving my point for me. How sad that you feel such personal attacks are justified.
i love my church
You are correct, and there are other things that Dr. Rogers said before he died that are most telling to his realization of the SG charade, but until Mrs Rogers and other witnesses are willing to stand up and be counted, it's not good enough for the sheeple out there, and it's just pointless to discuss, as it falls into the category of hearsay.
I will say this much, these stories have been floating around, and gaining traction over the last 9-12 months, and Joyce and Jim W have done nothing to dispel them. That should be very telling to the honest observer.
maybejustmaybe,
Criminals have no place in ministry - especially if they have not paid for their crimes. Counseling doesn't count - jail time does and then maybe he could come back into a limited ministry, but not one where he's put in charge asking about sexual pasts of volunteers or lay ministers.
As a rape survivor, wouldn't you feel violated again if you wanted to volunteer at BBC and the guy that was betweeen you and that voluteering goal has a molestor/rapist background himself?
karen
FG, you beat to that point. I was going to ask, "Does JW even want to say anything on the matters at hand?" If so, I would think there is plenty of oppurtunity for him to say something.
I have forgiven him of everything he's done. I don't have ill will towards the man. God's forgiveness is limitless however he does not always remove the consequences of SIN. And regardless of what some here believe. Not immediately taking some sort of biblical action against PW after hearing of his SIN is a SIN in and of itself. Action aside from "granting him Grace" as someone put it earlier. How some of you can not clearly see this is beyond me. The reason to bring it up over and over is because sometimes people need to hear something over and over before it really sinks in.
maybejustmaybe said...
Thank you, FG, for proving my point for me. How sad that you feel such personal attacks are justified.
Explain to me how I personally attacked you? A personal attack is if I called you a “moron” or an “idiot”. I didn’t. I answered you point by point. A curtsy you failed to show me.
I called your credibility into question because you were "so concerned" about the facts of some "random rumor" about a staff member who isn’t on staff anymore, yet you try to work to dispel or downplay actual statements about other staff members, who still remain on staff. It's disingenuous at best.
To the board...
Jesus taught us to love one another--even when we don't agree. The apostle John wrote: "Little children, love one another."
Regardless of what anyone thinks of this blog, the fact of the matter is that without this blog a certain minister would still returning to work at BBC counseling, etc.
This blog needs to be a place that makes sense and a place of clarity while the moral compass of Bellevue's leadership spins out of control.
jmo.
25+
Amen, and Amen
memphis
The fact that i have forgiven him does not negate the fact that he had precious little integrity when he did it. Forgiveness does not let the person off the hook. They are still accountable for their actions.
Perhaps I missed something, but has SG ASKED for forgivenss for allowing a pedafile lose amoung our children. I do not understand why this does not repulse you. I wonder if SG allowed PW to continue to counsel with women who had been sexually abused during that 6 month period. I suppose you would shrug your shoulders at that, too.
The fact of the matter is that you and others like you, are folliwing this criminal blindly, with no thought of what is right or what is wrong. It is the path of least resistance. It is not easy to stand up and say, 'this is wrong' when so many people have scales on their eyes and would just as soon stone you as to look at you for standing up for what is right. Don't make waves...just follow the pastor..it's the easy way out. But for someone to follow this latest crime, something has to be wrong with THEM.
My grandmother used to say to me,
'
We know what's wrong with THEM, what's wrong with YOU'
Dr. Rogers often told young ministers and seminary students that asked him for advice that he could give them all that they needed in a single word, "Integrity". With it you can never fail in the eyes of God, without it you cannot help but fail.
I Love My Church,
Please e-mail me. My address is on the profile, as well as my name. I would be interested in discussing this issue with you but prefer to do so privately.
Thanks,
Tim
onlyamember,
The cult/kool-aid comment is about the Brannon Howse article that appeared on the Savingbellevue website yesterday.
Diana
fedup, I only asked about the fence issue because he did apologize for it and I wondered if people really accepted the apology, which I do not feel like alot have since it is brought up over and over again.
I have made zero comments about PW in this thread. No I have not heard an apology from SG regarding anything of PW.
What repulses me is that he did molest his son. What repulses me is that many would rather see a headline asking for Gaines to resign than for PW to resign. What repulses me is that people are trying to drag a former minister into this for something they heard he might have done.
I think PW should have been fired 17 years ago. I do not think he should have been counseling anyobody. I think he should be charged criminally.
And I assure you there is nothing wrong with me but I do appreciate your concern.
memphis,
YET, you still think SG is a man of integrity.
Go figure.
Here's a news flash for you. I HAVE been counseled by PW for "family issues" and he was totally above-board and not the least been inappropriate or discomforting to me in his approach. He came across as genuinely concerned and he gave me wise counsel and a lot of help. So much so that I wrote him a thank-you note.
I am not saying that to defend him. Just to let you know that sometimes our perceptions of people based on the information we have at hand are not very accurate.
Again, I ask -- why is it not conceivable that some of us simply see all of this another way? And why the double standards?
FYI...
Are you folks aware the church Steve Gaines came from to Bellevue is in the Willow Creek Association? The First Baptist Church in Gardendale? I don't know who was ruling the church when it became a member of this church growth movement under Bill Hybels...but it would be interesting to find out. Their website looks eerily like Bellevue's or did last time I checked. And of course, the 40 days of Purpose, the 40 Days of Community, the 40 Days of Vision 2007, and the 40 Days of Peace can and does become a part of the WCA. You need to check this out.
maybejustmaybe said,
Again, I ask -- why is it not conceivable that some of us simply see all of this another way?
So, are you saying that you just can't get upset over pw's rape of his son. You see things differently. okaaaaaaaayyyy.
' we know what's wrong with him, what's wrong with you'
Sorry, forgot to put your link in here for this information from Willow Creek Association...shows Gaines former church.
http://www.willowcreek.com/wca_info/find_a_church/SearchResult.asp?Basic=1&Name=&State=AL&Country=
OKAY -- NOW I'M SHOUTING!!! I HAVE SAID REPEATEDLY THAT I AM UPSET OVER THE SIN OF PW MOLESTING HIS SON. I AM ANGERED, I AM DISAPPOINTED, I AM SHOCKED, AND I AM SORROWFUL. PLEASE TAKE TIME TO READ WHAT PEOPLE SAY BEFORE YOU RESPOND!!!
Memphis,
I second your repulsion at the situation. My calling for SG and company to resign is due to their continued lack of integrity in general, and inaction on this and many other issues. I agree with many here that believe SG no longer qualifies to lead BBC due to these personal issues. It is a foregone conclusion to me at least based on documented past actions that PW would have been immediately terminated from employment under a normal set of circumstances. Yet SG continues to pay PW while he "investigates". How these circumstances were abnormal isn't completely in the light yet but I think it will come to light one day. I believe that for some people about the only thing that would enable them to not support SG is an admission of some heinous crime at this point. It's unfortunate that many don't see his admission of the crime of not reporting an abuse crime as enough to cast doubt on his integrity. It's hard to come to grips with all of this I understand. It takes time. For some of us it takes far less time.
maybe
why is it not conceivable that some of us simply see all of this another way?
help me here. What way do the "some of us" that you refer to simply see all of this as?
And why the double standards?
A question i've been asking. I don't know what 'double standards" you are talking about, but is this one? Why does SG summarily dismiss staff for the simple reason of disagreeing with him, yet let PW stay on staff even though he knew that he had issues with pedaphila?
maybejustmaybe
Furthermore, the rape of a child is against the law because it is WRONG...regardless of the fact that you had a wonderful counseling session with a pedofile.
It's still WRONG. And no amount of compassion or good counseling can absolve him from what he is;
a PEDOFILE
And no matter how you try to spin it, the rape of a chid is not only a sin, it is a CRIME.
Sad that i have to explain this to you.
imaresistor...
re: willow creek - we (BBC)were "joined up" to willow creek shortly after Gaines came, but from my understanding, our membership has been stopped after somewhat of an outcry. The reason they gave for joining was that it was because of the music that they wanted to have access to was that which Willow Creek already has...who knows what the truth really is?
Maybe,
Calm down. I think what people are having a hard time with is that you appear willing to give SG a pass for just taking PW at his word and not dealing with him in some way at that time.
guys,
I think you (we) need to back off of maybe a little. I think she's sincere, yet is one of those who wants to think the best of her pastor, and it's upsetting to consider the consequenses of admitting that what is being said on this blog might have some truth to it. It upsets me too...may mean I have to leave my church.
maybejustmaybe
said
Again, I ask -- why is it not conceivable that some of us simply see all of this another way?
********
Just how is it that you see it.
You are either repulsed or you aren't. Since i AM repulsed, and you claim to see it a different way, what does that leave us with.
I can't answer the question of what it would take for me to lose faith in Bro. Steve.
But let me ask this -- is there anything he could do at this point that would be redemptive in your opinion?
And fedup, I continue to be offended by your remarks. You are needlessly sarcastic and it is counterproductive to your credibility, at best. Again, let me spell it out for you -- I said I was not defending PW. I was saying that what we see is not always the truth of what is there. You are so jaded at the sight of my name on a post that you attack me without even thinking about what I have said, even when it might be somewhat of a concession!!
That's what I meant earlier by attempting to "meet in the middle," but that didn't get anywhere, either.
And yes, FG, thank you for the request on your part that folks "back off," but I imagine it will fall on deaf ears. And if you all feel better by continuing to malign me, I don't wish to spoil your fun. I'm not one of those who "can't handle the truth," contrary to popular belief. I was just taught better than to accept speculation as fact.
maybejustmaybe,
I am so very sorry that i must address you once again....but you said;
I was just taught better than to accept speculation as fact.
Did i miss something. Didn't SG, in front of the entire congregation, tell on PW...I didn't know that we are merely speculating about PW.
What, exactly, are we speculating about. I'd really like to know.
(offline ... and praying, believe it or not)
Maybe asked -- is there anything he could do at this point that would be redemptive in your opinion?
Absolutely. If he demonstrated true repentance and humility for the way he has treated this congregation and individuals (including Dr. Spradlin) and that he recognized the authority of ALL Scripture as applying to him (Specifically Matt 18), it would be very "redemptive".
He could start with an open and transparent business meeting and allowing former staff members to address the congregration without fear of retribution.
ok, so maybejustmaybe doesn't want to answer the question.
Can someone else answer it.
What, exactly, do you think that maybejustmaybe thinks we are speculating about.
Perhaps this is the crux of the problem. No one really wants to believe the truth about PW. Even tho he has admitted it, there are those who refuse to believe it and will continue to call it speculation. Why in the world would PW make that up about himself. It's not exactly flattering.
Liberalism has crept into Bellevue. Whenever you have men judged by their bank account or job, it's a dangerous situation. Just because someone is wealthy doesn't mean they can't be a spiritual leader but just because they have wealth doesn't make them a spiritual leader.
I've always looked at politics with a heavy bent towards conservatism. As a young man, I noticed that generally, conservatives stood for right more than liberals.
I noticed that when a conservative was found doing wrong, other conservatives generally were willing to forgive the person but they were quick to let the person resign and/or suffer the consequences.
I also noticed that when a liberal was found doing wrong, other liberals were generally quick to use a new set of rules for discipline. A good case in point is Bill Clinton.
30 years ago, Bill Clinton would have been removed from office. Today, Bill Clinton gets standing ovations wherever he goes most of the time.
If I were in an audience with Bill Clinton, I would not give him a standing ovation but many do.
It seems like we have a double standard at Bellevue now. Depending on who you are depends on what the punishment or consequences are. Depending on what it may do to the pastor's reputation or appearance may determine whether it will be dealt with or swept under the rug.
When any organization or government doesn't rule with consistency and honor, it's over.
People loose their trust in leaders when the leaders can't be trusted to do the right thing.
Silence is something that can be as bad as being directly involved. Many folks know right from wrong but choose to be silent for fear of loosing a business deal, social standing, friendships, etc.
For anyone in Bellevue to know of wrong doing and be silent on the issue is contributing to the problem.
As I believe our former pastor has been quoted as saying, "The only way bad can continue is for good men (people) to do nothing."
Where is the outrage? This liberalis is tearing Bellevue apart.
Bellevue friend...
I so appreciate your post and wish all could read and understand it. Unfortunately, there are those who do not want to read, understand or know the truth and many have been told by the church leadership NOT to read anything on this blog or to listen to anything other than the leadership, hence the standing ovations for a man not quite "right". Thank you for your honest insight.
Would someone ask Brian Miller a question for me? I would love to hear his response.
Brian is the President or in a high position at ECS. HE is surrounded by children, counselors, teachers, etc.
Brian, "If a minister/teacher/counselor knows of a child molesting and does nothing about it what should happen?"
Why would Dr Spradlin need to apologize for his response? Given BM's high position and status at BBC, this would be a great question for a DCS agent to ask.
It is my understanding that when David Perdue (the brave and wise bidder for SG) was asked this question, he would not answer. Mr Perdue, what is it like to be in a Leadership role and not have to be responsible?
maybejustmaybe said...
...But, the law has changed of late, and it is understandable (to me) that Bro. Steve might not have known that he was under a compulsory mandate to report this. He may have believed that, as he has had clerical immunity from being forced to report such things for most of his ministry, that such standards still applied.
Maybe, ignorance is not an excuse. I cannot imagine any attempt to excuse this, especially based on ignorance. It is the churches responsibility to know the laws! In fact, I am CERTAIN PW knows the law and he chose to stay rather than leave. It was PW's responsibility at BBC to know laws pertaining to counseling!
What will be interesting is who did SG tell? Brian Miller (Chairman of Personell, Chairman of Deacons, Chairman of...etc), Chuck Taylor? Harry Smith? Mark Spiller? Steve Tucker? This investigation may take more than 30 days...
Morepatientthanyou,
I respect your opinion of my statements. However, just because you say that me calling SIN SIN is venom and hatred doesn't make it so. However, I see by your screen name that all of this will take a considerable amount of time to work it's way into your heart. We'll be patient with you.
Morepatientthanyou,
Why the sudden misdirection? Why answer facts with questions about a beloved pastor who isn't around to answer any questions you might have? Especially questions about a ministry that has never been in question.
fedupatbbc said...
onlyamember,
You are soo right about SG being the camp pastor. It's almost as though he wants to stir up as much controversy as possible, to keep a spirit of confusion going in every direction.
I'm no Bible Scholar, but i do know this one thing: This is not of God.
Has not anyone noticed that Dr. Gaines can't seem to go for long without drawing attention to himself in some way? Classic narcissistic tendencies...martyr complex, etc.
maybejustmaybe said...
I can't answer the question of what it would take for me to lose faith in Bro. Steve.
If harboring a child molester for six months dosn't shake your faith in SG then nothing else will.
You sound like the John ford,Rickey Peete supporters.
morepatientthanyou said...
How much did AR make?
...I do not know for sure, but have been told it was important to SG to Make more than AR.
How much was in the envelope, that we contributed to and was tax-free, when he retired?
...again, I do not know. I do know it was a voluntary gift from the people to the pastor that was not tax free
Our church purchases all of the video equipment. And it costs millions.
...This digital equipment is still in use at BBC today. I always wondered about this too. However, again the church gave voluntarily, willingly and knowingly to the love offering for this.
Was there a contract with LWF where they compensated the church for use of the footage shot at BBC?
...Don't know
For the longest most of us presumed that LWF was owned by BBC. I'm talking back when we were on Bellevue Ave. At what point did it become solely owned by the Rogers family?
...This is completely false.
Where do you get your information? Are you posting fact, rumor or gossip?
The beautiful thing about your questions is that you can receive honest answers by asking the right people. Unfortunately, it does not matter who we ask at BBC, we cannot get an answer.
And by the way, I don't read a lot of silly books, written by silly men, to tell me anything. I depend on Abba Father to educate me, unlike you heretics. And before you explode. I have been to the other threads and most of you on this thread are on the other ones talking about dispen... something, Calvinism, & some other one.
Calvinisim is a satanic cult. And if you or Spradlin have anything to do with it, then you need to be reprimanded. And surely you will; by God.
1:57 PM, December 27, 2006
Calvinsm...satanic cult?...wow...wonder if Spurgeon knew that?...Dr. Gaines better not ever quote him again if that's the case. Perhaps if you'd stop just going by everything you've heard, and actually do a little research you wouldn't be making such ridiculous statements.
morepatientthanyousaid..
JU said... "I believe the "middle" that mjm is referring to is actually the Moral Relativism that has invaded our church. Where SIN is no longer really SIN it's just a shade of gray in a spectrum of moral mental and physical indiscretions."
JU,
This is venom and hatred!
I guess that today at BBC calling sin a "sin" is hatespeach. I would expect this attitude from a church like FUMC.Liberalism has really arrived at BBC
morepatientthanyou,
the first part of your post was reposted from someone else..the latter part however can be attributed to me.
Is this lady actually teaching theology to others in an official capacity?! Say it aint so!
morepatientthanyou,
Why do you and others keep bringing Adrian Rogers up? Right and wrong are not based on what another man did or didn't do. We are dealing with truth here and now. We are dealing with Steve Gaines and the current leadership. If you had questions when Adrian Rogers was pastor, why didn't you ask them at that time.
Liberalism has taken over Bellevue. The classic argument of a liberal is to say someone else did it before me so I'm ok or trash the opposition so bad it makes you feel or look better.
What Adrian Rogers did during his lifetime speaks for itself. What Steve Gaines is doing during his lifetime is and will speak for itself.
Liberalism says, "I'm not that bad compared to what was going on before I arrived."
The right thing to say is, "Is what I'm doing right in the eyes of God?"
I don't think God is going to judge us compared to what someone else did. We are accountable for our own actions.
At a very young age I tried one time with my dad the excuse that "everyone was doing it." Thankfully, I had a dad that held higher standards than that.
Calvinism: Satanic Cult Members....
Jonathan Edwards
George Whitefield
William Carey
CH Spurgeon
John Robinson, Pilgrim Pastor
BB Warfield
Charles Hodge
J. Gresham Machen
Famous Non Calvinists...
Bruce Almighty
morepatientthanyou said...
Grace,
I make my living doing research on the computer. 60 to 70 hours a week. So that remark you made is laughable.
Well obviously you aren't spending that time researching what you so quickly call a satanic cult. Then I guess the SBC is a satanic cult, because of the over 200 delegates who founded this denomination, almost to a man, they were Calvinists. You know nothing of what you speak. Go spend another 60-70 hrs/wk.
Please don't feed the trolls!
NBBCOF
anotheronepraying,
add to your list these southern baptists:
John Broadus
James P. Boyce
RBC Howell
BH Caroll
Al Mohler
morepatientthanyou said...
cjesusnme,
I just looked at your profile and did not see your name. So what's up with you? I can tell you what's up. I am hitting a nerve. I'm calling out ya'lls hypocracy.
Just where is your profile????
trucker,
Just click on your username on one of your comments. Yours is fine.
NBBCOF
FinanceGuy said...
swtt..et al
For the last time, there were at LEAST 500 people there Wed night, and probably a number north of that. Maybe even 1k. I don't know, but IT DOESN'T MATTER if it was 1 person or 10,000. (Unless you are Harry "I don't know" Smith or Chuck "the numbers are up so what's the problem?" Taylor.) What's wrong is wrong and what's right is right regardless of the number of people on each side!
Financeguy,
I want to set the record straight. I was at Bellevue Wednesday night. There may have been on 150 people in attendence last Wednesday night. no more..
Don't forget Bunyan (John, not Paul)
Oh, and our Anabaptist (they were called 'heretics' for not joining the state church) forefathers all believed in election...before Calvin.
Don't forget Paul, Peter and Timothy, etc.,
By the way, best not to call it Calvinism. The word 'elect' is all over the scripture. Calvin isn't.
People call it Calvinism because of his 5 points. It is a misnomer because election has always existed. God has always had a 'chosen' or elect. Example: Israelites?
morepatientthanyou said...
westtnbarrister said..."Apart from His Word, how, praytell, does, Abba Father educate a man?"
Barrister,
If you have to ask that question, then you need to get back to the basics and start praying and reading the Bible. How dare a supposed mature christian even ask that question.
I will presume since you decided to make fun of my question instead of answering it, you have no answer. I can always pray more and study more. Who can't?
I will give you a few things to think about.
A truly Christian worldview begins with the conviction that God Himself has spoken in Scripture. At Bellevue we pay lip service to our commitment to the Bible as the inerrant and authoritative Word of God. We believe it is reliable and true from cover to cover, in every jot and tittle. Scripture, therefore, is the standard by which we must test all truth-claims. Unless that axiom dominates our perspective on all of life, we cannot legitimately claim to have embraced a Christian worldview.
When we begin with a right view of Scripture, the Bible itself ought to shape what we believe from start to finish. It should govern how we behave. It should frame our entire perspective on life. In other words, if we simply start by affirming what the Bible says about itself, the rest of our worldview should fall into place, with the Bible as the source and touchstone of all we believe.
But is the Bible, in and of itself, sufficient to furnish us with a complete worldview? Many Christians these days seem to imagine that the Bible is neither modern enough nor sophisticated enough to equip people to live in the twenty-first century. Church growth experts tell pastors they must look beyond the Bible for principles of leadership and success gleaned from the business world. Psychologists claim the Bible is too simplistic to help people with complex emotional and psychological issues. In every quarter of the evangelical movement today the Scriptures are being set aside in favor of novel philosophies, scientific theories, experimental behavioral and counseling techniques, political correctness, and other similar fads of modern opinion. People who claim to be evangelicals have jumped on almost every novel bandwagon of secular opinion since the middle of the nineteenth century.
Observing the current trends in the church, one would think opinion polls, rather than Scripture, determines truth for Christians. Obviously, many who call themselves evangelicals operate with something other than a biblical worldview.
Perhaps the one doctrine most under attack in the church of our generation is the sufficiency of Scripture. Even people who give lip service to the authority, inspiration, and inerrancy of Scripture sometimes balk at affirming its sufficiency. The result is virtually the same as a denial of biblical authority, because it directs people away from the Bible in search of other “truth.”
What do we mean when we say Scripture is sufficient? We mean that the Bible is an adequate guide for all matters of faith and conduct. Scripture gives us every truth we need for life and godliness. Or to borrow words from the Westminster Confession of Faith (1847), “The whole counsel of God, concerning all things necessary for his own glory, man’s salvation, faith, and life, is either expressly set down in Scripture, or by good and necessary consequence may be deduced from Scripture: unto which nothing at any time is to be added, whether by new revelations of the Spirit, or traditions of men."
The church, by and large, simply does not believe that anymore. The average Christian seems to assume that something more than Scripture is needed to help us cope in a modern world. Christian bookstores are full of books offering advice drawn from sources other than the Bible on almost every conceivable subject. Many contain advice that runs directly counter to the Scriptural precepts on the same topic matter. Various self-appointed experts who claim to have discovered some deep truth not revealed in Scripture have now become familiar fixtures on the evangelical landscape. The sufficiency of Scripture is under attack, and the effect on the collective worldview of the evangelical movement, including Southern Baptists, has been disastrous.
Do you want evidence that evangelicals are losing confidence in the sufficiency of Scripture? You will see it in the rise of evangelical mysticism—the belief that Christians need to listen to God speaking directly to them through strong impressions in their mind, a voice in their head, or other mystic means. Some are now obsessed with demonic powers and Satan. They imagine they can command demons by merely speaking with them. I argue all such mysticism is in reality nothing more than dabbling with the occult. It stems from a loss of confidence in the sufficiency of Scripture. Those who aren’t convinced the Bible is a sufficient revelation of truth will be continually looking elsewhere for more “revelation” and new mystical experiences. In doing so, they open the door to the worst kinds of deception.
During the past forty years we
have witnessed the abandonment of belief in Scripture’s sufficiency in the area of marriage and family. Christians once believed that if they studied the Word of God and obeyed its principles , they would have a God-honoring family life and a fulfilling marriage that would please the Lord. But now there is a proliferation of new techniques and a plethora of concepts, gimmicks, and opinions apart from the Word as the real keys in dealing with family problems. All of that suggests Christians no longer believe the Bible is a sufficient source of instruction. No marriage ever fails unless one or both spouses is disobedient to the clear biblical teaching about how to live with one’s spouse in love and understanding. The failure of Christian marriages today is not proof of the insufficiency of Scripture; it is proof of the weakness and biblical illiteracy of those who say they believe Scripture is the Word of God.
I repeat my question, absent His Word, how does God educate a man? I believe the Bible is the standard by which all knowledge, thoughts, and conduct must be measured.
Where is chuck taylor, oh I mean ACE?
Did the Church apply Matt:18 to Bruce Brooke?
Who is taking Bruce's place on the Board?
what is this I'm hearing about SG vision he had when he was in the Holy Land?
It was an out of body experience???
Help me with this one?
WTB,
nice post dude.
WTB,
EXCELLENT post!
I no longer believe you are Custos. You have said you are not seminary trained and you are not in ministry. Do you want to rethink that answer? Are you Mike Spradlin? Ken Whitten? Other seminary professor? Dr. Jernigan?
WTB,
Does the Holy Spirit convict and educate man of scripture?
John16: 7-11
It's the Word and the Spirit folks...can't have one without the other.
telos said...
WTB,
Does the Holy Spirit convict and educate man of scripture?
John16: 7-11
Absolutely! Without the Holy Spirit we have no hope of understanding Scripture or truth. I must leave for a meeting or I would elaborate, but I can say this: if a man feels led to do or believe something that stands in opposition to the counsel of Scripture, he can rest assured he isn't being led by the Holy Spirit. I am not giving your question its due. Perhaps someone else can pick up where I must leave off.
bbc refugee said....
"Maybe, ignorance is not an excuse. I cannot imagine any attempt to excuse this, especially based on ignorance. It is the churches responsibility to know the laws!"
Failure to report child abuse is illegal in all 50 states and has been for many years. The punishment for failure to report has been elevated in recent years, especially in Tennessee, although other states, including Alabama, have had substantial laws on the books for some time now. It is an issue of common sense and willing to do the right thing.
Someone may try to claim ignorance, but in a position of authority, that will not wash with the courts or the public. Besides, BBC has had a policy in place for almost 10 years and it was ignored.
FG, et al,
The reasons I believe you were personally attacking me were from these posts:
If only you were as concerned about factual information about Senior Pastors, ministers still on staff (PW), Board of Directors chairmen who have more serious and recent allegations and charges against them, then you might have more credibility.
(A disgusted FG)
2:46 PM, December 27, 2006
I've always been concerned about factual information. And the lack of it. In this statement, you accuse me of being less concerned about factual information regarding Bro. Steve than about another staff member who recently resigned. That is patently untrue and a total fabrication on your part. As for PW, I plainly stated in a post last Friday that I feel he should resign on his own and that if he doesn't, Bro. Steve should fire him. Guess you missed that one, huh? Credibility is as credibility does.
Then there's this edifying post, one of the many, from fedup:
fedupatbbc said...
maybejustmaybe
And it doesn't offend you that pw was allowed to counsel with children's workers/volunteers if they had been sexually abused. It doesn't seem to offend you, but take heart, it didn't offend your false god, either.
3:12 PM, December 27, 2006
Now people who don't know me and don't even do themselves the courtesy of reading my posts and considering what I've actually said, post that I worship a "false god." Nice touch.
Then FG weighs in again with this nugget:
I called your credibility into question because you were "so concerned" about the facts of some "random rumor" about a staff member who isn’t on staff anymore, yet you try to work to dispel or downplay actual statements about other staff members, who still remain on staff. It's disingenuous at best.
3:25 PM, December 27, 2006
FWIW, I am not trying to dispel or downplay actual statements made by anyone. I'm asking for restraint, maturity, patience, a halt to this rush to judgment that seems to be taking on a life of its own. I've already made clear my beliefs about PW. It doesn't need to be restated. What PW did, and what he may or may not have continued to do for another six months after his supposed "confession" to Bro. Steve in June is at PW's door, not Bro. Steve's. And regardless of how any of us feel about PW's sin, it IS sin, and it may also be a "sin unto death" (or at least it's certainly become a sickness), for which he needs HELP. Restoration. Forgiveness. Rehabilitation. Perhaps prison, I don't know. I'm sure DCS and the other authorities who are investigating the matter will get to the bottom of it. I am not unsympathetic to his victim, and my feelings for him ARE amplified because of their family relationship and how horribly that was violated. It would bother me if I thought PW or anyone else had found pleasure in my recounting the details of my personal life and problems -- but I don't think we need to be turning over every pew to find a victim hiding there. Yes, PW actually committed his sin against real victims, and against the church, and against a Holy God. Let the investigation(s) that are ongoing uncover the truth of the matter without adding fuel to the fire that's already burning out of control. Accelerants are totally unnecessary in this situation.
Also, the statement about the former staff member quitting because he was afraid some "truth" was going to come out regarding his loss of temper -- that's now a "random rumor?" Seems to me his identity was lobbed pretty squarely out there with the accusation.
And now in answer to this question:
And why the double standards?
A question i've been asking. I don't know what 'double standards" you are talking about, but is this one? Why does SG summarily dismiss staff for the simple reason of disagreeing with him, yet let PW stay on staff even though he knew that he had issues with pedaphila?
3:48 PM, December 27, 2006
The specific double standard to which I referred is the willingness to say all manner of things that are hurtful about Bro. Steve, but when a suggestion is made that a crime has been committed by someone else (allegation made this afternoon about a staff member who left recently), then it's "hands off." Why? Don't try to deflect the question. I'm referring to the double standard of practice on this blog.
And no one ever answered with substantial facts to back up the allegations made about criminal activity by that staff member. It's okay to toss that teaser out, along with that minister's identity, but when asked for proof or clarification, suddenly everyone is struck dumb. Things that make you go hmmm ....
Sorta like making claims regarding Dr. Whitmire and what he thinks and believes and has said, but somehow HE never speaks for himself ... at least not publicly.
Then what, 2 minutes later?
FinanceGuy said...
Maybe,
Calm down. I think what people are having a hard time with is that you appear willing to give SG a pass for just taking PW at his word and not dealing with him in some way at that time.
3:50 PM, December 27, 2006
I am not giving Bro. Steve "a pass." I said earlier today that apparently this was a bad judgment call on his part in the eyes of the law. He has admitted that himself. How many times must he repeat it? He's dealing with a lot, and the attacks on him are relentless -- no one is willing to give him a chance to prove or explain himself. Everything he does is suspect. And Dr. Rogers, bless him, had the privilege of being "protected" from the truth of what was going on right under his nose. Bro. Steve hasn't had that luxury, has he?
This post is long enough and most of you are probably scrolling by, so I won't continue. But one last comment: I am not the only one who has pointed out the myriad of things being speculated about on this blog and elsewhere, but those who continue to insist on Bro. Steve's resignation or his cowtowing to a list of demands refuse to accept that it's speculation. Do you not agree that if we are going to ever heal, we need to be able to meet somewhere in the middle on some of these issues?
I apologize for reacting in anger earlier. I felt I was being attacked unfairly and still do. If this blog really does exist to address issues in a mature and respectful manner, it sure took an ugly turn today and had the appearance of only one "side" being acceptable. It's hard to maintain civility in such a hostile environment.
I believe as to the question of how many were in attendance last Wednesday, those interested can find a very brief pan shot of the crowd on WMCTV-5's video listed under "WMC Action News 5's Mid-South headlines"/"Gaines' decision to keep confidence could lead to criminal charges."
mjm,
I'm sorry for any attacks you were subjected to. Don't feel too bad...I think all of us have endured a few..on both sides of the issues...I've been called an idiot, a member of a satanic cult..etc, etc...just be like a duck...let it roll off your back.
In 1985,here in Memphis, I became aware of a situation in my neighborhood where parents were going out at night and leaving their 3 y/o and their infant child alone in the house for several hours while they went to a movie to dinner, etc.
Being concerned, I contacted a group of lawyers that did work for the company i worked for just to ask them what i should do. I was told at the tiime that it was against the law for me to withold information regarding the safety and welfare of a child if i had first hand knowledge of abuse or neglect.
Now, I did not have a phd, i was not a counselor, but God had supplied me with enough common sense at 25 years old to know that i was to do something, and not allow those two chidren to be put in harms way.
Why do we expect less from a man with a PHD, and others in the church with far more education than I.
fedup,
that's the whole point...common sense.
mjm said;
Do you not agree that if we are going to ever heal, we need to be able to meet somewhere in the middle on some of these issues?
************
Sorry, MJM, but the one issue that i care deeply about, regarding the harboring of a pedafile, there is no room for ' meeting in the middle'. There is no room for compromise where the safety of chidren is concerned.
If SG had never done anything wrong up untiil that point, I would still be screaming for his head for allowing this man to roam the halls freely.
The harboring of a pedofile is reason enough, all by itself, for SG to go.
It is a matter of integrity. He has none.
err,
correction...in 1985 i was 30 years old.
just wanted to clear that up.
mjm
I truly do not mean to pick on you, but when you say things like this;
He's dealing with a lot, and the attacks on him are relentless -- no one is willing to give him a chance to prove or explain himself
*******
It begs for my comment. when dealing with children, you don't get a second chance. SG's responsibility to his sheep, at the very least, is to keep them safe from sexual predators that he has first hand knowledge of. It was his responsibility to protect the children, not to protect a sexual offender. this is a FACT that cannot be twisted or defended.
What, in your mind, does he need in order to ' prove' himself or to explain himself.
He has a GREATER responsibility because he IS a pastor, not less.
I base my response SOLELY on SG's on admission. He has admitted what he did, why is that not enough. It is as though you, and others like you, are hoping for any explanation that would aleviate him from all responsibility.
This isn't about HIM, it is about his failure to protect innocent children in our midst.
I care far more about the chidren that he put at risk than i care about him getting a chance to spin this where he is not accountable for his actions.
AoG,
I read the Foxe's Book of Martyrs
I make a list of Armenian martyrs:
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
many men might live for a lie, not many die for one
gatorjake,
LOL...good one.
maybejustmaybe, would you please email me. I caanot find your email address, mine is in my profile.
Memphis
Hi Folks, I have been reading through this blog with a heavy heart. I have posted once already on the Christmas thread.
I see some wondering whether to stay or leave. Depending on the outcome of this, you may not have a choice to stay. (I am speaking of actions your pastor may take to make staying impossible..especially if he employs the strategies of Saddleback or Willow Creek toward dissenters. I am projecting here based on what I have read in the news and on blogs..that he comes from the same stance as those churches. His actions so far certainly point in that direction.)
But if you do stay, it is an awesome chance if you know your scripture well enough to make a difference and lovingly guide others to Biblical truths.
There are other (mega) churches going through some similar changes(not a pedophile pastor, I admit) with a pastor who is making unbiblical decisions or showing a lack of integrity or common sense. Pastors who think it is about themselves...not Christ. There are people who have chosen to stay and encourage the expository study of scripture in small groups. They are making a difference...one person at a time. It is a hard road, though. The full gospel offends. Truth offends. There is no cheap grace or easy believism in scripture as so many teach from the pulpit these days.
After reading the letters from Ms. Billie, an SS teacher, the road may be very hard if that is the typical thinking. My heart broke when I read her disdain for those who believe election. That seemed more important to her than harboring a pedophile. I pray that her heart will change toward her election believing brothers and sisters in Christ.
Christianity is fast becoming a 'religion' of following men. We must know Messiah, through scripture, intimately so we can spot the counterfeit easily.
My prayers are with you ALL. My heart is breaking over what I am seeing in many churches today. Where is the fear of our Holy God?
Lindon,
Thanks for your encouragement. I appreciate how you show concern for others and always place the focus on Christ.
This comment was most excellent:
"But if you do stay, it is an awesome chance if you know your scripture well enough to make a difference and lovingly guide others to Biblical truths."
Cheers,
Mark
It does not matter, but there were FAR more than 150 there last Wed. night. FAR more
Lindon- You might want to actually find out the truth and what is going on before posting.
Lindon stated-
not a pedophile pastor, I admit
REPLY- Excuse me???
4545, I was just about to ask him to clearify that he was referring to PW and not SG with that remark.
imaresistor said...
FYI...
Are you folks aware the church Steve Gaines came from to Bellevue is in the Willow Creek Association? The First Baptist Church in Gardendale? I don't know who was ruling the church when it became a member of this church growth movement under Bill Hybels...but it would be interesting to find out.
According to WCA's Member Church directory, Germantown Baptist is is also in the Willow Creek Association.
http://www.willowcreek.com/wca_info/find_a_church/ProfileDetail.asp?MP=140922137
cjesusname, I tried to word my post as respectful and with out any accusation!
4545,
You seem curious of Lindon's views. Here is some clarity......
4545 said...
Lindon- You might want to actually find out the truth and what is going on before posting.
11:57 PM, December 27, 2006
Lindon said...
I am not from Bellevue but as a member of the Body of Christ, I am standing with those who see truth.
You know why this blog is needed? Because you are not getting all the information from your leadership. They are not forthcoming which leads to speculation which your detractors call rumors. It is a natural progression when there is deception, hidden sin, abuse of authority, loyalty letters, etc. They are compounding the problem...and for what? To what end? Power?
What is blowing me away the most is the lack of understanding about Matthew 18. It does not apply to public sin. (Yes, pedophila is a public sin even when sodomizing your own son at home. As a matter of fact, that is a felony)Make that double whammy if you are a "Minister' of Prayer. Matthew 18 does not apply here. Period. Those arguing it does, do not know scripture or are twisting it for their own benefit.
Apostle Paul rebuked Peter publicly without addressing him privately first. And it was not for pedophila. :o)
We have had that public rebuke in writing for the last 2000 years. There are other examples if someone cares enough to read scripture.
Note: Matthew 18 DOES apply to pastors for private offenses. So he is not off the hook. The difference is public sin.
Also, Paul tells the Corinthian church to kick the immoral man out so that he may eventually be saved. Doesn't anyone care about Paul Williams eternal life? Enabling sin by treating this as mistake or 'repented of sin'is not going to help him.
He is unrepentant. How do I know this? Because he is an 'elder' who has been hiding sin for 17 years. (See Titus, Timothy and James)
If he were really saved, he would have confessed 17 years ago and been accountable. It is that simple. We are talking 'elder' (minister) here. (We really are dumbing down sin these days, aren't we)
Repentance is NOT words. It is action...a turning away from sin, a change of heart. Unfortuantly, this means that it may take years for us to conclude that real repentance took place. Of course, the Lord knows but that does not mean the pedophile should be reinstated. Would you reinstate a finance minister who embezzeled money? No? Why? The temptation is too great.
But, still, as a minister, who is a sodomizer, he should know better. He is Minister of Prayer, right? But that does not mean he is saved. Read Hebrews 10 and pay close attention to verse 26. This should scare us all. But, it should bring Paul Williams to his knees in trembling fear. Gaines, and all the leaders, too.
Folks, don't ever assume your leaders know and follow scripture. We must know scripture very well so we can spot the 'counterfeit' right away.
What on earth does Gaines Gain? (pun intended) Power?
There is no unity unless it is founded on truth. Don't let Gaines 'Warrenize' you to believe it is about forgiveness and relationships. If he loved Williams, he would have fired him immediately and let Williams finally depend on God. And everyone can forgive Williams as he goes through repentance and sanctification.
The words 'Grace' and 'Love' are tossed around so freely these days. (Quoting your pastor on this issue) What they really mean are tolerance and acceptance of sin.
You know, God is so Holy that He cannot even look at sin. He decimated a whole city named Sodom over this sin. Which is why we call that particular sin that name. Did Jesus change the consequences of sin? Only if we REPENT and believe can we be forgiven.
Williams must go so he can be saved. Gaines must step down because he shows no understanding of scripture and has covered up a crime. Even the leaders who agree with Gaines should go. They can start their own church using their new Bible they have written.
My prayers go with all of you.
11:32 PM, December 25, 2006
Telos, I believe you are Mark Sharpe, if not then disregard, but I have not officially heard this and want to ask you one thing.
Have you forgiven Sg for jumping the fence?
It was discussed earlier and I do not know the answer, so I thought I would ask you.
Memphis,
I am not Mark Sharpe. From all accounts he seems like a fine man:)
Telos, my mistake, I saw the earlier post where you signed Mark. Again, sorry for the mistake
Memphis,
Mark Sharpe previously posted here that he did forgive Steve Gaines for jumping the fence...which is why I still don't understand why that issue keeps being brought up from half the posters here. It was an issue between Gaines + Sharpe and it has been resolved. Maybe people aren't aware that he was forgiven...so hopefully everyone should be aware now!
Ace, thank you, that was exactly the point I was trying to get resolved.
Ace,
Thank you as well! I uncertain on that point.
junior5432,
Correct! It is an integrity issue! I also have not heard if John Caldwell has ever issued an apology for the incident.
Also, it is an issue that Mark Sharpe could have pressed charges against these men, but graciously choose not to do so. They should be thankful that he did not otherwise they would have a mark on their record with the Memphis PD.
Junior,
An iddy bitty fence that they "stepped" over was in actuality 43" high at the lowest point. I don't believe SG could step over it
Uhm, let's see... 43 inches = ~3 and 1/2 feet. Steve is what.... 6' 3" or 6' 4"? That would be iddy bitty to him...
Tim,
Also, it is an issue that Mark Sharpe could have pressed charges against these men, but graciously choose not to do so.
Why didn't he do this? I'm willing to bet it's because he wanted to make a big deal out of this issue but he figured if he pressed charges it would make him look bad. You see, that's the way I believe Mark thinks/works. After all, he is the neighborhood troublemaker.
ace,
Do you live in Mark's neighborhood?
NBBCOF,
Do you live in Mark's neighborhood?
Perhaps. :-)
Ace,
How many men who are 6' 3" have a 43 inch inseam? Come on.
To be clear - he came unannounced
To be clear - he broke the law
He should be held to a higher standard.
It brings up another integrity issue as well in considering the reason for the visit in the first place. Think about the reasoning that was given, which was to reconcile with a brother.
Why did they need four men?
What were they trying to reconcile?
I have never seen this question addressed before.
Why didn't they call first?
Why was it necessary to visit instead of making a call?
Steve Gaines had Mark Sharpes cell phone number. Why didn't they call to see when he would be home that night or if they could meet somewhere else?
When 1 + 1 adds up to equal 3, then you know something is wrong with the math. Some of us have come to realize that it doesn't add up anyway. Others have just accepted that as part of the new math that has been introduced to Bellevue.
Telos, he admitted it, he apologize to MS and publicly. I am sure he learned and will not climb anymore fences.......
Telos,
How many men who are 6' 3" have a 43 inch inseam? Come on.
Are you saying it's impossible for a 6' 3" man to step over a 43 inch fence? Because it seems quite possibly to me.
To be clear - he came unannounced
To be clear - he broke the law
To be clear:
1) Who cares that he came unannounced? That's not a crime, buddy.
2) He broke the law by jumping the fence? Obviously if it was such a big deal to Mr. Sharpe, then he would have pressed charges.
Tim,
Drop it. This issue doesn't even concern you. It's between Mark + Steve and it has been resolved. Quit sticking your nose where it doesn't belong and stop being a crybaby.
Ace,
I would like to see him try to step over that fence without singing like a soprano.
I honestly don't believe he could hurdle it if his life depended on it.
Ace,
Yes, I am saying it is impossible for a man who is 6 3 to step over that fence. Especially one with Pastor Gaines condition.
Your 2 enumerated statements are quite telling. More like red herrings.
Tim,
I would like to see him try to step over that fence without singing like a soprano.
Too bad no-one caught it on camera, eh?
I honestly don't believe he could hurdle it if his life depended on it.
Believe as you like then... that must make you sleep better at night and if it does, then keep denying that you are wrong all you like.
Telos,
Yes, I am saying it is impossible for a man who is 6 3 to step over that fence.
Wrong.
Ace,
If Steve Gaines had broken the law by speeding and received a ticket, then that would be between him and the law.
When Steve Gaines broke the law acting as the pastor of Bellevue then it became an issue which concerned all of Bellevue. Further when he held an "informational meeting" to discuss the issues and described it as an itty-bitty fence and held his hand at knee level it became an integrity issue. The fact that he has not corrected his statement and described it as an itty-bitty fence and held his hand at waste level speaks even more as to his integrity. He would like to be able to get away with telling a lie to the congregation but he was caught with his hand in the cookier jar on this one.
Ace,
I respect you. I also love the Great Bellevue and my Lord and Savior.
God Bless you and good night.
Tim,
If Steve Gaines had broken the law by speeding and received a ticket, then that would be between him and the law.
I never said this current issue is between Steve and the law. I said it was between Mark and Steve. I fail to see where this is any of Tim's business.
When Steve Gaines broke the law acting as the pastor of Bellevue then it became an issue which concerned all of Bellevue.
Let me ask you this...when Gaines apologized for jumping the fence at church, did you forgive him for his acts since he is your pastor?
Or do you not have to forgive him since you are Tim?
Goodnight, Mark! Love you too buddy!
Guys,
"Step over" means to literally step over (or hurdle) without touching which would be a challenge for Yao Ming. "Climb over" is likely what happened.
Why does it matter? The height of the fence is irrelevant. It could have been 43 centimeters, but it was still wrong. Mark Sharpe stated he accepted SG's apology. Let's let Mark say whether he still thinks something isn't resolved about it.
Compared to letting a confessed child molester roam the halls for six months, it does tend to pale in comparison, don't you think?
Errr...Respect you too is what I meant to say.
Even though I still do love you since you are my bro in Christ! :)
NBBCOF,
Mark Sharpe stated he accepted SG's apology. Let's let Mark say whether he still thinks something isn't resolved about it.
Thank you...this is what I've been trying to say...we need to drop the whole fence issue.
Goodnight all, time to say my prayers and hit the hay. Any requests?
nbbcof,
The point is not the fence or trespassing. The problem here is that the congregation was lied to about the height and also about the reason for being there in the first place. A most carefully thought out lie to be exact.
It follows a pattern. There was also a lie about how no one want to deal with and issue like this, not us, not "past people".... Well thought out and deliberate. Also, in defiance of Mrs. Rogers request to clarify who was being referenced by "past people".
Tim,
I see how you conviently skipped over my last post. Do you forgive him or not regarding the fence issue? He asked for it, now it's time to hear the results...
One last thing, I was surprised to hear that the statement was even run by Mrs. Rogers actually.
Memphis,
No requests for me tonight...thanks though! Have a great night!
memphis, you've got mail. :)
Ace,
He was forgiven before he asked, the consequences for the action were totally up to the people that lived in the neighborhood.
He has also been forgiven for lying about it, although he has not apologized or asked forgiveness for that. However, the consquence of lying to the congregation on this issue and the PW issue are what have yet to be determined. Some think that there needs to peace and love and they have neither in reality. Others would rather have a pastor that at the very least could be honest when addressing issues like this.
ace said...
Telos,
Yes, I am saying it is impossible for a man who is 6 3 to step over that fence.
Wrong.
I am not a lawyer. I am not a theologian.
I am a scientist.
It is physically impossible for a man to STEP over ANY barrier that would be higher than the distance between the ground and a person's crotch.
Like it really matters......
One would be just as guilty if he/she tunneled under the fence.
Goodnight all. I am going to get some sleep. See all of you tomorrow.
4545 wrote: Lindon- You might want to actually find out the truth and what is going on before posting."
Please forgive me! I meant 'minister'. I should have communicated that better.
Also, my posts are in reference to the public information about this problem being known to your pastor (this time...really 'pastor') for 6 months while the offender was on staff. Also, the congregation did not know about this minister's sin for 17 years. Isn't that correct?
I know many will think I do not belong here as I am not a member of your local church. Although I am a part of the Body of Christ which has no walls.
I do feel an affinity after witnessing a huge scandel at my former mega church. It was good in that it drove me to scripture on my knees begging the Holy Spirit to teach me the truths of the Word. I was astonished that well known leaders were doing the things they were doing. People I had trusted for years.
In addition to studying the Word in detail, I was also led to look at things from a birds eye perspective for what is going on across the board in Christendom. It was hard to do that while going through the trials of my church.
There is an explanation for all that is happening in our churches: Revelations, Chapters 2 and 3.
Also, please read Revelations 21: 5-8 for counsel on this situation. Verses that chill me to the bone.
You do not know me but I speak in love to you all as brothers and sisters in Christ.
Again, please forgive me if I have misspoken. I must also clear up some other misunderstandings: I am not a pastor, just a follower of Christ and sinner in the process of sanctification.
Several things I have learned the hard way: Truth offends even long time Christians including me. Scripture must be exposited so that it cannot be taken out of context and the road is very NARROW. There is no easy believism, no cheap grace. God only disciplines His own which seems unfair but still is very true.
One of the verses the Lord gave me during the scandel: Isaiah 2:22 and it applies to me, you, our pastors, everyone.
Last misunderstanding: I'm a gal with a guy's name. I have had some fun with that in the past. :o)
May His Name be magnified and glorified!
Lindon,
I love your heart. thanks for your words.
To Billie,
Again, I am going to have to state the facts about my father, Dr. Jim Whitmire. You said that he was upset that he was not properly acknowledged when he announced his retirement. Let me ask you something first before I acknowledge your comment about my father’s feelings. How do you think a fellow minister should acknowledge a fellow minister of our Lord Jesus Christ of over 40 years for his surfaces? Truly think about it. Even if you did not know my father and you were even a minister just starting out in the ministry. How would you treat a minister that has served the Lord for over 40 years? Would you treat him with respect? If you truly knew this man or woman loved the Lord and wanted to win souls and bring people to Jesus. Not because you knew them but your own discernment from the Lord Jesus led you to believe this way. How would you truly feel about this person? Not from your OWN personal feelings but how would you feel Jesus would treat them? Because, is that not what it is all about? What Jesus would do? How do you think Jesus would treat my father? All my father and mother have ever cared about their whole lives is to bring people of this world and their own children to the Lord. Now that I have grown up somewhat, I have realized how fortunate and blessed I am to have parents as Dr. and Mrs. Whitmire.
Now, lets lay down the facts or the truth of this whole situation. Let’s as they say, pull off the gloves. Please do not speak for my father’s feelings if you do not know what he is truly feeling or truly felt about a certain issue that happened in the past. Unless, you have personally talked to my father, or my mother, or the family, you truly DO NOT KNOW what they are feeling or felt about what is happening or happened in the past. My family is tired of hearing the RUMORS or STARTED RUMARS about my father’s feelings. Please have some Godly wisdom when making statements about another certain individual’s feelings. Only God truly knows that persons feelings. You have 9 grand children. I pray your grand children will never have to go through what we had to go through. I pray no minister’s children will have to go through what we have had to go through. When you have grown up under a man and a woman (like my father and mother) who truly love the Lord and want to tell others about him, like my brothers and sisters have grown up under, you truly appreciate and see how fortunate you are in this life.
Now, I am not a preacher, I do not claim that I’m Mr. Holy Spiritual. I’m a loser, I’m a fool, I’m a SINNER, and I’m an idiot. In fact, in heaven, I’m probably known as the village idiot. But, I can spot Godly integrity, Godly humbleness, and Godly love for people when I see it. I see all those things in my father and mother. Most of you can run circles around me (on this blog) when it comes to quoting scripture. But it is not that hard to understand the Word of God when it comes to the commonsense in the Word of God when it says to be humble, to have integrity, and to love thy neighbor. Even a village idiot (like me) can understand those commands in the bible. Quit making a mountain out of a molehill when it comes to the Word of God. When the bible says we should be Humble, (FEEL AND SEE IT) when the bible says have Integrity, (FEEL AND SEE IT), and when the bible says Love thy Neighbor, (FEEL AND SEE IT).
Now that brings me to the point of you making the statement of my father being upset about not being properly acknowledged on the night he announced his retirement.
The wife and the children of Dr. James D. Whitmire were upset of how my father was treated through the whole ordeal of his retirement last year. My father is a man who does not crave recognition, who does not crave rewards, who does not crave fame, or craves his own gratifications of self-accomplishments. What my father craves is for people of this world to come to our Lord Jesus Christ. My mother is an incredible woman. What more than any man can ask for in life than to have a wife that will stand by his side and stand up for her husband. Every man desires this from his companion and if they deny this than they are LYING. This is the type of woman my mom is for my father. What man would not want a woman in life who loves the Lord Jesus first, Loves her Husband, and Loves her children. If he does not want this than he is truly a fool for nothing. Any man that denies that he does not want this than he is lying or is lost. I found this type of woman in my mom, my mom’s friends, my sisters, my stepsister, women that I grew up with, and in MY WIFE. What greater compliment I could ever give any woman, including my wife, is that you act just like my mother. My mother stood by her man that she truly knew Loves the Lord. Any man would be truly be blessed to have this type of love. The children stood by their father that they knew truly Loves the Lord. My father was not upset because he was not acknowledged (Properly). He did not curl up in the corner of his office and start sucking his thumb because he was not properly acknowledged that night. Please, if your going to start stating on how my father felt, get your FACTS straight. Again, if you want to make a statement about my father, say it to the families face. (That is not trash talking). That is stating the facts.
Joshua David Whitmire
Joshua
I too have had somewhat of a problem with people laying out suppositions about how your father feels about the way he was treated in his retirement. A true man of God as your father realizes that there is no recognition, and no adulation that would even come close to the reward that awaits him in Heaven.
However, I feel reasonably sure that a Godly man such as your father would be affected by the hurt that his family has felt over this whole situation.
One "village idiot" to another, we will all be rejoicing together in Heaven. We will just have "smaller" mansions.
As a former member of a Memphis mega-church whose pastor fell from grace, I have read these blogs with great interest.
Although the CA covered the story of this particular church, we didn't think to establish a website and blog, and until I found a few "like-minded" friends, I remember how betrayed and displaced I felt. I'm so glad you have each other early in the process.
I am sorry you are going through such an ordeal.
There is Hope and Healing in Jesus Christ.
Continue on, my friends. Follow the money. Money is a great motivator for many. Follow it. Many records are public domain, i.e. tax assessor records.
Document, document, document...
Find an 'insider' who will help you. Persist. There are people who want to help you, who want to talk, who want to tell what they know. They may not be at BBC...look at West Jackson, Gardendale...Schedule some face time.
Thanks for your hard work in exposing the Truth. I know some of you are tired. Keep on keeping on.
ok, nothing in the news this week about the pedafile and his protector.
Please tell me that this isn't going to be swept under the rug and that we have heard all we are going to hear about it.
If the church cannot hold these two men accountable, surely the law enforcement officials will.
Is it possible that they could be bought off?
Do you think it possible that the so called " internal investigation" aka " communications committee" is going to say all is forgiven and allow PW back on staff to roam the halls of our church, preying on our children?
I still cannot believe this is happeneing at our church and that people don't care that pw was allowed to roam freely among their children. As parents, it is our job to protect our children, yet I see them standing, grinning like Cheshire cats, and applauding the man that didn't give one whit abouttthe safety of their babies.
What is the proper response to those that will say, " he is God's annointed".
Where is the line in the sand? Does one even exist?
Lindon,
Thanks for speaking with clarity and insight. You are right on the mark. You are as welcome to post here as anyone, as far as I'm concerned. I agree that it's sad that there's such animosity toward those who hold a theological view that has been around for over 400 yrs.(actually longer, since these doctrines predate the reformation to the Apostle Paul) and has a long history in this denomination. But I think those who oppose us will grasp at anything to divert attention from what the real issues are. It's good that someone with objectivity comes here from time to time to help us refocus on those issues. Again, thanks.
Joshua Whitmire,
Every father should have children who are so willing to enter the fray to defend their name and honor. Thank you for coming once again to make clear the situation. I'm thankful that Dr. Whitmire has a place to use his talents and giftings for God's glory and the edification of the saints at GBC. I'm hearing they are being greatly blessed by his work there. Blessings to you and your family.
Good morning,
Mike Spradlin will be on the radio today at 3pm talking to the owner of Bott Radio, Dick Bott.
I believe Mr. Bott interviews people from time to time on various subjects.
The promo mentioned they will be discussing leadership in the church.
Blessings,
Andrew
Josh,
My family and I worshipped at GBC on Sunday and what a blessing it was to hear the choir and the music.
Please thank your father for me.
Joshua,
I sincerely appreciate you clarification concerning your father. My wife and I saw him this past Sunday and let him know how much we love and miss him.
His testimony has always touched my heart because of certain similarties between his and mine. I suppose that there is no other way to describe the love that I have for your father, since I am not a personal friend of his, than to simply say that my spirit bares witness with his.
I can also say beyond any doubt that Dr. Whitmire did an incredible job of leading us congregationally into worship and always directed our attention and worship toward Jesus. Not once, not a single time do I recall him drawing attention to himself.
My name is available if you or your family read and would be kind enough to contact me some time. I would truly love to share more with you.
Thanks again,
Tim Coggins
Hi Tim,
Hey you placed the following statement in last night and it really got passed over. This concerns me as well. Would you like to unpack this more?
"It follows a pattern. There was also a lie about how no one want to deal with and issue like this, not us, not "past people".... Well thought out and deliberate. Also, in defiance of Mrs. Rogers request to clarify who was being referenced by "past people"."
fedupatbbc- You above questions are AMAZING. The committee, nor anyone else at Bellevue is in "charge" of what is going on. This is a LEGAL matter and a serious matter. They are going into great detail.
So you think you deserve daily updates? Legally most cannot say anything right now, even if they wanted. If there is update info that can be shared, we will be told at that time.
Your post sounds like you have had a bad week, because there has not been any horrible articles in the CA or bad news reported.
Bought off? WOW
Dr. Mike Spradlin will be on the radio with Dick Bott this afternoon at 3:00. They will be discussing characteristics of Godly leadership.
radio: WCRV-AM (64.0) or
live stream:
http://www.bottradionetwork.com/splashFlash.asp
Josh,
I sympathize with you about how your dad may or may not feel. I love your dad, and he ministered to me a great deal in his and my years at BBC. However, keep in mind, Bellevue loved and had a special relationship with Dr. J. For a new pastor to come in and treat your father the way SG did showed disrespect to the entire church, and set the tone for how this pastor feels about his flock.
We are an organization for him (SG)to mold to his own making, not the flock that God gave him to Shepherd.
He does NOT return the love the congregation has shown him. If there isn't any other evidence of that fact, the way he treated Jim Whitmire should have been a big red flag to the church.
'nuff said
-FG, who will always love the Whitmires, no matter where they are.
Post a Comment