We've heard a lot about forgiveness recently, and we've heard apologies from several people. I'd like to discuss just a couple of these here. A topic was started a few weeks ago regarding a conversation between staff minister Doyal Long and Pam Gremillion. Mrs. Gremillion gave a detailed description of that conversation which is available from a link in that topic heading. (Check the November archives for "Conduct Becoming a Minister?")
A few days after that topic was started, we received the wonderful news that Minister Long paid an unexpected visit to the Gremillions for the purpose of apologizing to them for things he said to Mrs. Gremillion during a phone call she made to the church two days earlier. The Gremillions explain in their own words what happened during this visit.
Praise the Lord! This is most assuredly conduct becoming a minister! I am heartened by Mr. Long's ability to recognize that his words were hurtful to the Gremillions and his willingness to ask their forgiveness quickly and face to face and that he and the Gremillions are now fully reconciled in Christ.
It was my hope that this is a sign that some of those in leadership positions at Bellevue are beginning to realize that many of the sheep they're supposed to be shepherding are hurting and scattered. Could this represent just a glimmer of hope that they are finally hearing the sheep?
In the morning service on December 3rd, Brother Steve apologized to the congregation for the way he'd handled three things -- the "retirement" of Brother Jim Whitmire, the Gardendale remarks on July 10, 2006, and the Union City remarks on September 25, 2006.
I accept his apology for the last two things, but I and many others still have doubts about the first. Dr. Gaines' version of what happened and accounts from the Whitmire family about what happened at that meeting in November 2005 still differ greatly.
Read his apology here.
The Whitmire family has requested that their account of the apology not be published here, so in deference to their wishes I am honoring their request. Suffice it to say their account differed significantly from Steve Gaines' description. I will reveal this: After everyone had spoken, Steve Gaines reportedly angrily slammed his palms down on his desk, then raised both hands in an "I surrender" gesture and yelled, "Okay! I'm sorry!" So, technically, I guess he "apologized."
Please try to keep this thread "on topic" and use the General Discussion threads for other topics of discussion.
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197 comments:
Nass,
Very well put on the front page, you kept the main thing the main thing.
Instead of discussing various topics you nailed it down to one. (no sarcasm)
Regarding Dr Gaines apology: Perhaps a bit of a gulf between the Letter of the Law and the Spirit of the Law?
Further, had I been in Dr Gaines shoes two Sundays ago, I believe I'd have made sure Harry Smith made no comments that evening that could be in any way construed as condemning of the sheep he had just apologized to. Harry Smith basically, however, did just that and said what amounted to, "Well, Dr Gaines may have made a few mistakes, but you guys did too."
I believe Harry was dancing closely with moral equivalence.
It occurred to me that some may read this and decide that the Whitmires were being petty and lacked humility for being offended that they weren't properly honored.
You should keep in mind that this was the "last straw" in the disrespectful attitude that Pastor Steve had exhibited toward the Whitmires, even before he (SG) had shown up at Bellevue. I'm sure there are people on here who know the specifics, and in my opinion they don't really need to be discussed in the open. It's sufficient to know that that this offense was icing on the cake.
However, none of us should be surprised that Pastor Steve would have a dim view of the Whitmires. His apology not withstanding, he did have a view of Bellevue, which came from his own lips, that we were "doing things wrong". Jamie has apologized to the choir for saying this, but he did indicate when he came that he didn't think Bellevue knew how to worship. I'll accept their apologies at face value, but at least at that time, this is how the Steve/Jamie duo felt about the Worship service in general, assumable Dr. Whitmire, since he was the Worship leader.
Whatever Pastor Steve’s good qualities are, people skills are not among them. It’s interesting to see who his ‘favorites” appear to be on staff, and it’s staff members who also lack people skills.
(sitting on my hands before I say more)
custos,
There has been a tremendous amount of "I may be a sinner but so are you", (or as the kindergarten taunt puts it,"I know you are but what am I?".)
This has been coming from the 'usual suspects' in the lay leadership, as well as from staff ministers.
This combined with the "ends justifies the means" attitude, exhibits some dangerous thinking (IMO) on the part of church leadership.
This sort of thinking could possibly lead in the future to senior staff ministers admitting to very serious immorality, and being allowed to continue to serve on staff. I know that would never happen now, but it could....
Steve Gaines lied from the pulpit and broke the law (remember the itty bitty fence?) - when are people going to wake up and see these 2 things are just the tip of the iceberg that's gonna sink Bellevue Baptist Church. I will go to the grave thinking Steve Gaines and the leadership that protects him have done terrible, irreparable harm to us a church body and to us as a non-profit organization. Please people! Get everyone you know to read this blog and pray that their eyes will be opened to the truth.
Karen
financeguy,
You have email. Karen
There seem to be a lot of 'apologies' going around these days that include the phrase "I'm sorry if you were offended".
Apology 101 would teach us that a sincere apology does not include the words -"if you were offended"
That being said. Forgiveness does not require an apology from the one who offended. We are to forgive. Period. Forgiveness is a choice and is more for our own good than for the the one being forgiven.
lucy
I noticed that as well. All his apoligizing is "qualified". It's almost like "I don't think I did anything wrong, but if you do, then I'm sorry". Not very Biblical. Pastor Steve understands this. In fact, he told the deacons that the only apology he would accept from Mark Sharpe would have to be without and "If" or "but" qualifications. Sounds like Pastor holds himself to a different standard.
(I'll just ignore the fact that I don't understand what MS has to apologize for. It's not like he climbed over Steve Gaines fence and showed up at his house unannounced in the middle of the night or something.)
Great observation, Lucy.
I think the "If I offended you" qaulifier is akin to saying, "I'm sorry you took it that way." The implication there clearly being that the fault is ultiamtely in the overly sensative offended, not the offender (aka innocent victim of circumstance). In some cases I think qualifiers like that nullify the original statements they're attached too--effectivly making the apology mean nothing at all.
Finace guy
You have mail
bellevue friend
There is so much I could say in response, but true, a lot of us are mystified by the reports of disrespect on the part of SG toward Dr. Rogers.
Many of you may be familier with the saying "If "if's" and "buts", were candy and nuts, we'd have Christmas every day".
No point in speculating on "what might have been's". What's done is done.
bellevuefriend! AMEN! There are alot of "shouldas" but what can we do now?
We were a hurting people when Dr. Rogers died and here comes this bulldozer in the form of a new pastor and his "henchman" ready to change everything. There's a really good article on savingbellevue.com about "culture crashing" and that's exactly what happened. We had no transition period in which to recover from the retirement of Dr. Rogers, his death then the loss of our Dr. Whitmire. We were (and still are) stinging from those things then Dr. Gaines began changing everything with seemingly no regard for the people who were hurting. The response from the leadership to anyone who questioned the changes was "if you don't like it, leave". WOW! Another stinger! How would you feel? Try drinking from a wide open fire hose - you may get an inkling of how we felt. (This is not my original methaphor - I borrowed this from SW&W)
Karen
bellevuefriend,
I agree - I have been way short on prayer where this whole situation is concerned. I think a lot of people are realizing this fact in their own lives as well. I'm ashamed to admit, but I never once prayed for the Search Committee - so I guess my lesson is "be carefule what you ask for (or don't ask for) because you just might get it. God forgive my laxness.
I was always taught that it is not my job to judge how genuine an apology is, it is my responsibility to accept it and forgive. If the actions after that still create bad vibes, then you deal with those, but you do not keep rehashing the same arguments over and over again.
I am not sure what you guys want from the preacher. First you want an apology, so he does that, then it is not geniuine enough, then it is his preaching and you do not get anything out of it (which I always heard you only get out of a service what you put in, meaning the frame of mind), then it was the music has changed ( I do not see that much of a difference from before Jamie actually), then we went to donuts being sold, to musicians, to security, the bylaws were thrown in the mix at somepoint, back to the fence jumping, and now back to apologies.
I understand we all miss Dr. Rogers, he was great and I am not speaking bad of him, but no matter who came in after him, we will never get anothe Pastor Rogers!
So far the only valid issue (which covers many, many things on here) is that the bylaws should be updated. Much of this stuff went on before Gaines!
I am not trying to be a funny, mean spirited or anything else, but honest.
If someone asked me what was on this blog, waht should I tell them based on all the posts???
Sister Pam,
You have again taught me something today. You are so wise and profound - even a child can understand the deeper meaning of your post.
Thanks! Karen
flatfoot,
You are missing the point(s) entirely! It is the lies, half-truths, abuse of power and money, AND the by-laws, etc, etc.
Personally, I do not care how many donuts they sell, but I most certainly care if the pastor has questionable character issues! (and this has nothing to do with Dr Rogers other than he taught us better than to "swallow and follow"!
flatfoot,
Please read the 2 links provided at the opening page of this thread on the home page of the blog - you will see the "apology" from the pulpit far differs from the angry "ok, I'm sorry" Dr. Gaines offered the Whitmires. I don't know how you were raised, but I know without a doubt my momma wouldn't consider that an apology - I consider it a temper tantrum by a grown man.
Now don't get me wrong - I have forgiven him for his treatment of Dr. Whitmire, but that was no apology.
By the way, the Whitmire account has never waivered from everyone I've heard it from - from the Whitmires, to my mother, to other choir members. It has never waivered from the absolute truth.
Unfortunately, I cannot say the same about what's printed in the Communications Committee FAQ handout. I cannot find that link anymore on bellevue.org, but I'm sure you've seen the handout.
Karen
woundedandbleeding said...
You can write to him at
sgaines@bellevue.org
FYI, I sent an email and got this back:
The following recipient(s) could not be reached: Gaines, Steve on 12/13/2006 3:20 PM
The e-mail account does not exist at the organization this message was sent to. Check the e-mail address, or contact the recipient directly to find out the correct address.
Karen, you know, I have read the account of the office apology, but I of course was not there. I was at the service where he said he handled it wrong and he was sorry. I felt that was a genuine apolgy from the pulpit, regardless of how it went down in the office. In my mind, everyone is asking for apologies involving someone else.
This is just getting tiring, and I think how much time it has taken to read the blog, that I am disappointed in myself that so much of my time is going to this rather than anything else, so after today, I will not be accessing this site anymore, but I hope you all get the desired results you all are after and Bellevue becomes complete.
**I say after today, only because I feel someone will want to tell me how clouded my judgement is, or how blind I am being, and if I write something I will hear the feedback, and not just write and run.
Good luck, and Merry Christmas
FYI, I just called the church and spoke to Linda Glance - she said to send email to her and she will print it out and give it to the pastor. I flat out asked her if she prints out everything as sent and she said yes.
lglance@bellevue.org
Karen
flatfoot,
I'm just glad that Martin Luther, George Washington, Winston Churchill, the Apostle Paul, and many others didn't feel the same way you do.
financeguy, me too, and thank you for that remark
Karen,
Here's the link you were referring to:
Bellevue Communication Committee
Apparently the site, much like the Committee, has "served its purpose."
cjesusname, just a warning, expect some flack from "our church" I understood your meaning though.
No flak here - it's our church building and it's HIS church, not his church - get my meaning?
Please don't give up, flatfoot. This is not about apologies, the issues go much deeper and will all come to light soon. I've taken many breaks from the fight and I feel refreshed anew and am ready to stick it out. Try it - get away from BBC altogether, go get fed on a fresh word from God, fellowship with people with no "agenda" and come back, please? It works!
Karen
Bellevue's State Charter says>>
Due notice of any election must be given by advertisment in a newspaper, personel notice to the member, or a day stated on the minutes of the Board Of Directors 6 months preceding the election.
There we have it. If you look on savingbellevue.com, under featureed items, then under Church Government, then click on "state charter.
This is what must be referenced concerning "any" election at Bellevue.
If due notice hasn't been given any of the 3 ways stated above, then it has not been handled correct and sould be voided.
This is the language in the Bellevue State Charter that we should enforce.
moosergs said...
"I am tired and confused!!! I don't know what to do or where to worship."
We are tired as well, but when you take Karen's advice and get into a good worship service and BFC, begin feeding on God's Word and HE will renew your strenth.
A lot of us go to BFC and then go home and watch Dr Rogers at 11:00. Some attend GBC where Dr Whitmire and Dr Spradlin lead a magnificant worship service. It Works!
I'm sorry if you were offended is NOT an apology. Furthermore, it is not apologies we need to hear but confession of sin. Sin needs to be confessed and owned up too, not,"I'm sorry becuase you caught me in a lie or, or if it offended you, I sorry you were offended" sort of thing.
rod Almond-
phil413,
Amen. The night of the 24th is a case in point...2 of the men who needed to apologize weren't even there..on top of that the 2 that were, apologized on behalf of the other 2. By what authority?..and to what good? Sin is personal...confession and asking for forgiveness should be personal..and let me be clear...adding "if" or any other conditions is not an apology.
Bellevue Friend
I just read your 11:16 post.
I SO agree about Ken Whitten. I often wonder what he thinks about what is happening to Bellevue (surely he knows?). I could just burst into tears thinking about how different things would have been if he were here! He so loved Bellevue and Dr. Rogers. I doubt he thought we needed to be taught how to pray or how to worship. He would have loved and respected us.
Ken, are you reading this blog? We love you!!!!!!
I feel like a child whose father has died and now suffers at the hands of an abusive stepfather.
Piglet said...
"I feel like a child whose father has died and now suffers at the hands of an abusive stepfather."
I feel the same way!!! Since he died, it's like love left our building. Does that make sense to anyone?
I strongly suggested for you pastor Steve Gaines to contact peacemaker ministires. Now we will see what he will do. I told him I have heard of churches that split, but never did they say they had peacemaker minstries helping them and were not able to help them. You all at Belleve here keep me posted if you hear that your church is working with them. I don't think he will e-mail me back. I really do have an e-mail address.
Sin is both public and personal When you sin against one brother you go to that brother and confess to that person alone. However, sin is most definately public when you sin against the body or it involves more people. Peter and Paul are an example of public chastisement and for a very important reason. Peters behavior affected many people and it was essential to correct him publically. When a brother doesn't repent, or sister, one of the final stages of seeing it through is most definately public confession and public repentence.
rod almond
I think that we all are aware that the source of pride is not from God. I think we are all aware that the source of lies is not God. We know confusion is not from God either.
What was said on the Gardendale tape about what sg felt towards Bellevue was true. How do we know that? Because of his actions towards Bellevue since he has been here.
I think many of us were put on alert with revealing statements like "Even you people at Bellevue...."
Much at Bellevue has changed and is still changing and it has only been a year that all these changes have taken place.
The greatest change for me and my family though is the change in spirit at Bellevue. It used to be a spirit of love, reverence and respect for God and the Sheep. Who do you suppose built Bellevue up into the church it was when sg took over? It was the LORD.
Now there is division, anger, mistrust and wondering what is a lie and what is truth. Bullying and arrogance and "if YOU don't like it get used to it!" Sheep getting smacked and threatened from the pulpit by using the Word of God, as a battering ram.
So, what is there to say about the Gardendale tape but, AHA!
ROD ALMOND
ROD ALMONDA
as someone else on these discussions said problems at bellevue started long before Gaines. Believe me Bellevue Baptist Church was hurting sheep before Pastor Steve Gaines, now everybody else is feeling hurt. Ezekiel 34 hurts were done to people before S.G.
Just because people have not heard, does not make it not true. Bellevue Baptist church did not change really just now everybody is seeing it. But the person who set up this want the discussion to stay on Apoliges and Forgivenss and this may really be a general discussion.
Thank you Mr. Whitmier for your grace and Christian character as well as that fantastic program you put on at MABTS, THE MESSIAH.
The contrast in your behavior to what we have been exposed to gave me faith in the integrity and grace of Christian men, once again. You graciously acknowledged jamie for his being there and taking part in the program. Your gentleness and meekness touched our hearts and confirmed that we recognize right from wrong.
We also noticed that jamie was in the front center row and the only person in the entrie production without a tie. We could not help but wonder if this was because he was the only one who was not informed on how to dress properly or if it was perhaps a statement or rebellion? But if it was rebellion on his part, the contrast was manifest between grace and other.
Rod Almond
to noemailaddress
Who is the "everybody else" you refer to in your last missive? I don't understand what you are saying. Also, what is it that people haven't heard until now? Are you refering to Dr. Rogers lieing to people? Are you refering to other pastors of Bellevue using God's Word as a Batteing ram against His sheep? Has it always been policy to buy tickets for "pom=pom, rah! rah!" tickets with the Lords tithes and offerings? Did church leadership always climb over fences posted no trespassing to intimidate a sheep that would not, could not keep silent when he saw things not becoming of any leader, let alone Christian leaders?
Are you telling me all of this was going on before sg and we all just were not aware of it?
rod almond (NO a on the end)
Noemailaddress,
Are you a Bellevue member; and, if so, for how long have you been at Bellevue?
Best,
Josh
Peace Makers ministry? Peace comes when sin is confessed and repented of. It is very simple, actually. It takes a dying to self and pride and confession of sin and fellowship is restored.
rod almond
While the pastor took a step or two in the right direction there is still a long way to walk... Here are a few important changes that would help during these days of crisis in leadership:
I. Pastoral Accountability to the Congregation:
1. A business meeting in accord with Matthew 18 to deal with the issues that remain related to Mark Sharpe and "the Dream"... and any other loose ends that should have been dealt with months ago!!
2. The giving records of the membership and the ministers on staff at Bellevue should never be for pastoral review in any shape, form, or fashion.
3. No church credit cards.
4. An admission Dr. Gaines should have never given $25k to FUMC and an explanation of policy changes to prevent a repeat.
5. A policy for open books on Holy land trips and no overcharging of members. Free tickets for the host and wife are fine but not for anybody else.
6. Full disclosure of ministerial compensation: salary + benefit breakdown, etc.
7. Timely removal from office of ministers guilty of sexual immorality with immediate and timely coordination with the appropriate authorities if any laws have been broken by a minister (no matter how long ago), including thorough investigation of the matter when the minister’s conduct may have affected other church members or their children.
II. Congregational Church governance:
Some of the congregation has awakened to the reality that our church has a set of "lay-elders," a close knit group of men who manage to be appointed to key positions year after year. The rest of the congregation needs to be awakened.
1. Those who are part of this lay-elder "power block" need to step down from positions of influence for a long time. Bellevue needs “new blood” in these key positions.
2. There needs to be the signing of a public conflict of interest form for any member that has any business contract to provide services for the church. These people should not be allowed to serve on committees that review bids for their services.
3. Congregational nomination of and election of all of the Board of Directors as called for in the 1929 bylaws.
4. A quarterly business meeting with open mike Q&A with each committee chairman. **The current bylaws mention "monthly" business meetings! When were they changed??
5. A good updated set of bylaws similar to GBC.
6. A transparent committee selection process.
7. Much greater congregational oversight of the current budget with a transparent policy for consideration of non-budgeted expenditures exceeding a reasonable amount.
8. Thorough communication with the Congregation for ANY capital project well in advance of any vote. Building prayer buildings or any other type of building should be brought through proper channels to the congregation for prayerful consideration--not coerced "rubber stamping." [By the way, Dr. Rogers taught us quite a bit about prayer. As a matter of fact, I believe all of the current buildings ARE prayer buildings already. He and Dr. Whitmire also taught us quite a bit about worship also... but that's another topic].
9. Bellevue needs to reject Warrenism fully and finally.
10. Higher standards should be put in place for the hiring of "ministers." Seminary training should be considered a normal prerequisite.
III. Treatment of ministers on staff at BBC and members:
1. A whistle blower policy for ministers, staff, and members.
2. The end of heavy handed dealing with ministers, staff, and members; and the end of signing non-disclosure statements. All ministers who have been pressured or asked to sign such non-disclosure statements should be released from them in writing by BBC! Former staff should be allowed to address the congregation and/or the deacon body either in writing or in person without any fear of reprisal regarding their exit from BBC. Gaines has confessed to mishandling Dr. Whimire's exit... The congregation now needs to hear from Dr. Whimire--and several others--by letter or in person IN THEIR OWN WORDS. The congregation needs to know how their leadership has treated and is treating ministers who leave the service of our Lord through BBC.
3. Forgiveness for those in leadership who have allowed this to deteriorate to this point--AND consequences for their actions.
All in my opinion as usual.
We are to be “providing things honestly in the sight of all men” (Rom. 12:17). Revival, reform, congregational oversight... for there is level ground at Calvary and "he who would be great among you shall be the servant of all."
Rod Almond
I do not know everything thing that B.B.C has done wrong,only the L-RD knows everything and when it started, I only know what I know. and wonder about what I have heard from someone I know. but I know that trouble started over 3 years ago. and nothing has changed since that day, they do not listen to you or anybody but themselves, they do not listen to the word of the L-RD. they simply do not care at. everyone at bellevue should know that it is a fact.
you said " Now there is division, anger, mistrust and wondering what is a lie and what is truth. Bullying and arrogance and "if YOU don't like it get used to it!" Sheep getting smacked and threatened from the pulpit by using the Word of God, as a battering ram." you tell me everyone they are hurting now. way to many people hurting. poor people.
Peace be to you Rod Almond
To answer you Josh,
No I am not a member of Bellevue, and I do not want to be. those in Authority only hurt people.
previous
know as
noemailaddress
noemailaddress wrote:
"Also, what is it that people haven't heard until now?"
I think what the writer may have been referring to was this little band of rich, powerful men who seem to be running every aspect of BBC, and that began before Steve Gaines came. Dr. Rogers apparently turned over much of the day to day operations of the church to Mark Dougharty and a handful of others, and it seems some may have, ahem... shall we say, taken advantage of their authority.
Here, in my humble opinion, is a big part of the problem today. This one person serves on over 25 boards and managing committees in the area??? Is there that much of a shortage of qualified people in Memphis that one person has to do all this? Just from BBC we know he's on the finance and missions committees, was chairman of the short-lived CC, was last year's Chairman of Deacons and Vice Chairman of the pastor search committee, has ties to ECS, was on the BOT of MATBS, and is still on the board of LWF. He's Chairman of the Board of Union University, and Steve Gaines is on the Board of Reference. Is this the same "deer-in-the-headlights, I-don't-know-the-answer-to-that" Harry Smith from the CC meetings? In the words of our friend, hisservant, "Wow." Remember, Union University wanted to take over control of MATBS at one point. Something just... reeks.
Noname,
Given that you're not at Bellevue, I'm not sure you're qualified to comment to the church's past. Certainly I believe that the current situation grew from seeds sewn before Dr Gaines came to Bellevue. Mark Sharpe and Richard Emerson both noted that Dr Gaines had been set up for failure given the lack of governing oversight.
While there may have been errors at the church before Dr Gaines got here, there are two issues which were left out of your post that need to be mentioned: First, Dr Rogers' presence obviously prevented the current circumstances from arising earlier--it's no coincidence that these things have happened along this timeline. Those who would take over the church knew they couldn’t overcome him when he was pastor. Second, Dr Gaines has had manifold opportunities to deal with the fruits of those seeds and to deal with the men at the root of the problem—the power players; and he has refused. He was also approached with concerns about the lack of oversight and he choose to plug his ears.
Given what we know of Dr Rogers, it is obvious that these men were only allowed to continue at the church because they concealed their ambitions from him, knowing that he would immediately stop them and likely eject them from leadership were he to discover their motives. It is clear that Dr Rogers incredible integrity intimidated them and protected us.
Contrast that picture against what we've seen in one year under Dr Gaines: Deceit, obfuscation, intimidation, law-breaking, lack of transparency, and defiant willfulness regarding all of the above. If Dr Rogers' integrity protected us before, and now we're open to all manner of evil, what has changed? It can't be simply the lack of a great man, it must be the replacement of that man by one who apparently is 1) a puppet of these men, 2) a willing accomplice, or 3) one who doesn’t see the above list as a list of wrongs. None of those possibilities are palatable to me or acceptable for a pastor.
I say all of this to say that while things may not have been perfect under Dr Rogers, he acted as a bulwark to keep this mess from crashing down on us. While the situation leading to this failure can't be completely laid at Dr Gaines' feet, it can be laid at both his feet and, further back, at the feet of these men who apparently long thought Dr Rogers to be "the spinmeister." We were rooked by these fellows too, and even now, many of the flock still are.
Suffice it all to say that though these men shouldn't have gotten into the positions they have, they never would have been able to act had Dr Gaines dealt with them once he saw them for what they are. After all, they’ve shown their true colors to him; and unlike Dr Rogers would have, Dr Gaines, having seen their true colors, refuses to deal with them. In fact, he seems to be either cooperating or colluding. For now, my money says colluding (and probably leading) given his words, deeds, and deceptions.
Best,
Josh
Josh,
Bravo! I am so glad to call you my friend. You make me feel smart! :)
Thanks Karen. And I realized I needed to add one thing:
We can't hold responsibile leaders accountable for knowledge that was concealed from them. However, we can, and should, hold any leader accountably who sees wrong doing and turns a blind eye to it.
Rod Almondmartanti said...
"Has it always been policy to buy tickets for "pom=pom, rah! rah!" tickets with the Lords tithes and offerings?"
Was that a reference to the church buying tickets for the Grizzlies? If you know details, please elaborate.
WTB,
I've asked about those Grizzlies tickets too. Someone explained to me Dr. Gaines had the church purchase hundreds of tickets so they would let him sing the national anthem at a game. The church sold some and made up the difference.
In my list above I added a new item:
"Timely removal from office of ministers guilty of sexual immorality with immediate and timely coordination with the appropriate authorities if any laws have been broken by a minister (no matter how long ago), including thorough investigation of the matter when the minister’s conduct may have affected other church members or their children."
And this item needs immediate attention from S. Gaines. So there is no mistake... this thing is known far and wide by now due to the fact that leadership has not handled this properly at all. This is the "scandal" vaguely referenced on the SavingBellevue site. We need to pray for Bellevue! There is no excuse for the many weeks of delay in this matter.
i love my church wrote:
"I've asked about those Grizzlies tickets too. Someone explained to me Dr. Gaines had the church purchase hundreds of tickets so they would let him sing the national anthem at a game. The church sold some and made up the difference."
Are you kidding me???
I went to that game and bought tickets - they weren't exactly cheap. We rode buses, some of the pastoral staff (Doyal Long, Webb Williams, Scotty Shows - I think) played basketball prior to the game, Steve sang the National Anthem w/ his daughters. It was fun - I didn't know if there was deal tied in with the Grizzlies or if it was just "Bellevue night at the Grizzlies". Never really occured to me.
Karen
NBBCOF,
I cannot confirm this story. I have two sources who have the same basic information.
My first source was in position to know. He isn't lying to me, so he believes it.
An alternate source confirmed the same story. She added the additional detail that Bellevue had to purchase 500 tickets.
I guerss singing on local television every Sunday morning isn't enough for him anymore.
moosergs said...
Can we pleasehave Dr. Spradlin now?
From your fingers to God's ear?
karen
Ezekiel and NASS,
I've heard the same story. I have considered calling the Grizzlies about this. It should be easy enough to confirm what it takes to sing the national anthem.
If you think about it, unless Bellevue instigated it, why would the Grizzlies have asked him to sing? If they wanted someone from Bellevue to sing, why not someone from our music ministry? Imagine Audry Lawrence (sorry if I misspelled her name) singing the national anthem. She could blow it out!
Ezekiel,
Don't forget the Gaines shrine in the church hallway.
25+yrs@BBC said...
In my list above I added a new item:
"Timely removal from office of ministers guilty of sexual immorality with immediate and timely coordination with the appropriate authorities if any laws have been broken by a minister (no matter how long ago), including thorough investigation of the matter when the minister’s conduct may have affected other church members or their children."
And this item needs immediate attention from S. Gaines. So there is no mistake... this thing is known far and wide by now due to the fact that leadership has not handled this properly at all. This is the "scandal" vaguely referenced on the SavingBellevue site. We need to pray for Bellevue! There is no excuse for the many weeks of delay in this matter.
4:09 PM, December 14, 2006
23+years@BBC,
We heard at the Wednesday night meal that this Minster came up from Florida to Bellevue some 25 to 30 years ago. Is this what you
are hearing? I dont know many of the minsters or where they came from but any insight for our Church would be helpful to all members.
Do you think the Pastor will address the Church about his problems? Will he have to resign from working on our Church Staff?
Has anyone contacted his son?
Bellevue has a minister who has been on staff for many years who, while serving on staff at Bellevue, sexually molested and sodomized his own pre-teen son and continued for some time thereafter.
The son is now of age and he confronted his minister father and the minister confessed in front of witnesses at the church.
Gaines has known about this for well over a month and little to nothing has been done. Gaines said that it was "under the blood."
While that may be true, it still does not relieve the minister of consequences in this life. If he would do such a thing with his own son, then perhaps it would be easier with someone else's. Usually this kind of thing can involve many other children.
To make matters worse, this minister has been over the record keeping for children's workers for quite some time.
This is far bigger than some private, family sin. Gaines should have removed the minister from Bellevue the MOMENT he found out about it.
Ministers of Bellevue have been removed in the past for adultery... how could Gaines have thought that incest and sodomy were not as serious?
God is cleaning house at Bellevue... The membership needs to wake up! It is time to stop all the standing ovations and get down on our faces and seek God.
Mothers of Bellevue find your voices and fathers of Bellevue find your courage! Your leaders have been quiet and spineless.
It is way past time for light and truth.
NASS's request:
Please try to keep this thread "on topic" and use the General Discussion threads for other topics of discussion.
So, do you think Gasol will be back this week? :-)
Sackcloth&ashes,
Do you know the details of the Bellevue board member who has had a longterm affair?
It's time for the truth.
Yes, I am aware of that too. It seems that Bellevue needs to mourn instead of clap.
From the pastoral leadership to the ministerial staff, to the board of trustees, to the lay leadership... to many members of the membership that have hands over their eyes, ears, or mouth... God is cleansing His church.
custos wrote:
Certainly I believe that the current situation grew from seeds sewn before Dr Gaines came to Bellevue.
karen wrote:
Josh,
Bravo! I am so glad to call you my friend. You make me feel smart! :)
I agree wholeheartedly, Josh. BTW, can you come up to Tipton county and help me 'sew' some seed this spring?
(forgive me, I couldn't help myself)
This is something. we have a minster on staff and a Board Of Directors member that are involved in things that scares me to describe as I hear it from many now.
Is the Pastor not going to bring this before the church?
Faithnhope,
I swear, I can't spell for anything! And homonyms are the worst because spell check won't get them. =)
Imagine what my posts would look like if I didn't run the longer ones through Word first!
Cheers,
Josh
Well, so much for staying on topic in this thread! Just continue as you are. One word of warning though. I do NOT want to see any names associated with the topic of discussion from the last few comments! These people have families, and their feelings are an important concern. So continue to discuss the situation if you wish. Just don't bring names into it.
Thank you,
NBBCOF
phil413,
"Classy"? LOL! You're too kind. I'm afraid we haven't achieved that goal sometimes, but I hope everyone is trying to keep it civil.
Thanks,
NBBCOF
Yeah, we love our "momma sheep"!
Karen
Not not it's a biggie...but Rod_Almond said:
Thank you Mr. Whitmier for your grace and Christian character as well as that fantastic program you put on at MABTS, THE MESSIAH.
And continued to say...
We also noticed that jamie was in the front center row and the only person in the entrie production without a tie.
This seems a bit ridiculous to bring up, wouldn't you say? Nonetheless, since you brought it up I should note that you are wrong...more than one person wasn't wearing a tie that was involved in the production...
Wow! I'm overwhelmed with all this revelation. Something seems rotten to the core. Is it any wonder why the "leadership" doesn't keep the ceo accountable? I cannot believe that someone who has committed the crimes mentioned here, (child molester and his own son) would ever be in a position of leadership. You'd have to throw out the Bible to do that! And to have him in connection with the Sunday School in some way? This simply cannot be true. If it is Bellevue has gone to the dogs.
rod almond
Hay ace, we looked and didn't see one single person without a tie except jamie. That's why I mentioned it.
rod almond
Rod,
Hay ace, we looked and didn't see one single person without a tie except jamie. That's why I mentioned it.
Hey! Well, I am 200 percent sure there was at least one other person... :-) Just for your information!
Ace use your connections to find out what is going on with this sexual abuse story that will not die.
Ouch! Sounds like I hit one of your nerves, ace. I'm sure your reply isn't for my sake, because I was there. It must be for another reason.
rod almond
Trucker,
Ace use your connections to find out what is going on with this sexual abuse story that will not die.
How about this...I challenge you to go look for answers yourself instead. But when you do it, do it in a loving way. Don't shoot down anything that you disagree with even before you get answers. Have an open mind. Good luck...I look forward to seeing what you can find out soon.
You know what? I'll even help a little... If you need phone numbers for any specific person at Bellevue or contact methods then please email me and I will give you all the info you need. Again, good luck.
Trucker,
It won't die because it is true.
Rod,
Ouch! Sounds like I hit one of your nerves, ace. I'm sure your reply isn't for my sake, because I was there. It must be for another reason.
My reply was not meant to offend you, as of the smilie I posted. (You know...the :-) )
I'm not angry about this issue I just don't understand why it was brought up in the first place and why it even matters that he didn't wear a tie. You suggested that it was because he wanted to show his rebellion? Come on, now, you know that's silly...
I was there too which is why I know he wasn't the only one not wearing a tie. Go ask Whitmire...I'm pretty sure he saw a second person without one...
Personally I could care less if Jamie was wearing a tie or not. We've got much weightier issues going on here.
Ace, should this turn out to be true I just can't wait to hear what lengths you will go to to defend the inaction of the church leadership .
Ace,you better think about your blind faith in the leadership of church.This issue should open your eyes to the deception of the leadership.
BTW like 25yrs at BBC it believe that it is true.
Ace said:
You know what? I'll even help a little... If you need phone numbers for any specific person at Bellevue or contact methods then please email me and I will give you all the info you need.
So you've got access to contact info for "any specific person at Bellevue", huh? And you're willing to divulge such? Sounds like you just inadvertently admitted to being a staff member, and a scalawag one at that.
I do hope and pray you don't have such access, and if so, that you don't misuse it.
Trucker,
Ace, should this turn out to be true I just can't wait to hear what lengths you will go to to defend the inaction of the church leadership.
So are you going to research this for us and gather up some facts to share?
Ace,you better think about your blind faith in the leadership of church.
Even though it's not "blind faith," perhaps I'll think about this some more. But only if you promise to open up your mind a little and not automatically assume that everything at Bellevue is wrong and corrupted. Sure mistakes have been made by people....but I'm wondering this...have you ever made a mistake or two...or one hundred in your life?
ch,
So you've got access to contact info for "any specific person at Bellevue", huh? And you're willing to divulge such?
It's called a phone book. They come in handy at times, yah know...
Sounds like you just inadvertently admitted to being a staff member, and a scalawag one at that.
Maybe it sounds that way...but that doesn't mean it's true.
I do hope and pray you don't have such access, and if so, that you don't misuse it.
Again, the yellow/white pages is a wonderful tool to find out information. If people don't know how to use it, then I'm more than willing to help out to provide phone numbers.
Trucker,
I know its true.
And Ace... this isn't about mistakes... it's about iniquity and crime.
ace,
There's not a person ever born who hasn't sinned...that's not much of a defense..and yes it's called sin...not mistakes. When I sin...it's sin..not a mistake.
Ace said:
Sure mistakes have been made by people....but I'm wondering this...have you ever made a mistake or two...or one hundred in your life?
Ah, the old relative standard. What a load of malarkey.
I for one am a completely depraved sinner, saved by the immeasurable grace and mercy of Christ alone. I think most everyone on this blog would say the same of themselves. Does this mean we're to mindlessly ignore anything and everything others do wrong?
So many of the administration's apologists loudly proclaim the (indeed) scriptural concept of removing the plank from your own eye before pointing out the speck in another's.
Those same apologists seem to think that's the end of it, however. It's not. And those apologists also seem to want to ignore the rest of the Bible which forthrightly denounces sin and instructs believers to flee from it, not excuse it and cozy up.
CH said..So you've got access to contact info for "any specific person at Bellevue", huh? And you're willing to divulge such? Sounds like you just inadvertently admitted to being a staff member, and a scalawag one at that
Well you nailed him on that. I think Ace is closely involved with Jamie Parker he seems to be hypersensitive about Jamie and his tie.
from Ace Hey! Well, I am 200 percent sure there was at least one other person... :-) Just for your information!
Ace I believe that you are the other one without the tie
ace wrote:
"This seems a bit ridiculous to bring up, wouldn't you say? Nonetheless, since you brought it up I should note that you are wrong...more than one person wasn't wearing a tie that was involved in the production..."
I was in the same room with ace? Wow.
As much as it pains me to say this, ace is right. There was more than one person in that performance not wearing a tie. One man besides Jamie wasn't wearing a tie. (He was wearing a pullover sweater which would have looked odd with a tie.) And I don't believe any of the women were wearing ties, so over half the group wasn't wearing neckties. And I agree it was a bit nitpicky to mention it in the first place. The lack of a tie didn't detract from Jamie's dimples in the least.
NASS
AllOfGrace,
There's not a person ever born who hasn't sinned...that's not much of a defense..
Maybe you're right that it's not a great defense but people here are acting like they are perfect and Bellevue isn't. People need to face the facts and realize that they sin too and they're not perfect.
and yes it's called sin...not mistakes. When I sin...it's sin..not a mistake.
You know what I meant...and, by the way, mistakes can = sin. If I am faced with a problem I can choose to lie or tell the truth. If I lie, that would be a sin...which is also a mistake on my part because I shouldn't have lied in the first place.
What Trucker and most people are discussing here is sin, not mistakes. There is a big difference between the two. You can make a mistake on a math paper or about who is wearing a tie, but if you look at what these folks are concerned about, they are not by any stretch of the imagination, mistakes.
rod almond
To Ace and other defenders:
Let me make this point first. I do not a dog in the fight with Dr. Gaines. But I do have concern when children may be in danger.
I do have the phone numbers and I have made the attempts to get to the bottom of this. I left a message for Dr. Gaines yesterday. Ask Linda if you do not believe me.
Please read my previous post of last Friday afternoon. I do not hide behind anonymous names. I am an advocate for victims of sexual abuse by clergy. I am the area rep for SNAP. Survivors Network of Those Abuse by Priests. I too am a victim. If you spend the time to read my previous post, you will find the link to my story and the abuse I sustained.
I am very concerned for this family, the abuser and the victim. I deal with this everyday. I am a long time member of Bellevue since 1985. I moved our membership to a sister church recently for personal reasons. So I do identify with Southern Baptists and Bellevue.
You challenged some others to make the phone calls personally. If you have any influence with Dr. Gaines would you have him return my phone call? Would you help me?
I am intent at getting to the bottom of this. My sole purpose is to see that no other child is harmed.
One more suggestion, if looking up my old post is too hard try this. Go to this link: http://www.rememberthesurvivors.com/haasrapeoffaithbrown.htm I know there have been so many posts it may be hard to locate it. Hope this will help. It evens has my photos, one when I was pure at the age of 15 before my abuse and more recent one.
Let me warn you abut my story that was printed last year. It is very explicit. I was silent for over 35 years about my abuse and then another 9 before I was actually able to tell what really happened.
I pray that there are no other victims. But we will never know unless Bellevue is transparent and truthful. I will have much more to say about this later.
I am used to the Catholic Church stonewalling me, but I still speak and continue to seek the truth when I hear of things that I have heard of this situation. Oh for the record not all my information came from this blog.
Like I said earlier I am not afraid to use my identity. If you check my profile you will find my email addy. If anyone wants to contact me, please do it. NASS can vouch for me. I am real.
I would urge all to be in prayer over this. Please pray for all and our beloved Bellevue. God is at work.
In HIS hands
David Brown
Trucker,
Well you nailed him on that. I think Ace is closely involved with Jamie Parker he seems to be hypersensitive about Jamie and his tie.
Think as you like. I'm not even the one who brought up the tie issue.
Ace I believe that you are the other one without the tie
Hmm...again, believe as you like.
ace,
Noone on here is acting like they're perfect..we all know we're sinners. Calling sin a mistake is being soft on sin...in me, you, anybody. So what do we do?...just say well we're all sinners so let's just ignore our sin?...if that's the case Bellevue may as well close up shop.
You know...
in the Bible there is a sin offering, a trespass offering, a guilt offering...
Never seen a "mistake" offering?!
25, you nailed it.
If the above accusations are true, and if many of the other allegations are true, we've moved far beyond the "mistake" category and on into outright lawlessness and gross moral corruption. This is to be excused because we've all made mistakes? Tell that to the minister's son, and remind yourself of that next time you drop your children or grandchildren off to be cared for by a stranger who just might have been "approved" as a worker by this very man.
CJesus,
Sorry, but as a Mom I'm not stupid enough to think this staff member "accidentally" raped his own child.
I never said it was an accident. The only thing I posted in relation to this accusation was for trucker to research and report back to us. You should be ashamed of putting words in my mouth.
It's sick and I am ashamed for you to call it that and to think anyone should be open-minded about that person still being on staff!
Guess what? Again, you shouldn't be ashamed of me but yourself because you are telling yourself that I said that and I never did.
NASS,
I was in the same room with ace? Wow.
:-)
As much as it pains me to say this, ace is right.
Thank you.
And I agree it was a bit nitpicky to mention it in the first place.
Thank you again.
AllOfGrace,
Noone on here is acting like they're perfect..we all know we're sinners.
Actually, there are quite a few people who act like they are perfect. I won't call them out because I don't work like that but if you read posts from the past month or so you will see of a certain few who act this way. And deep down inside they know they are sinners, yes, but for some reason they can't admit it to other humans.
Calling sin a mistake is being soft on sin...in me, you, anybody.
True, but in my mind a sin is still a mistake...even if it's a soft term for it and I think you'll agree with me on that.
25+years,
in the Bible there is a sin offering, a trespass offering, a guilt offering...
Never seen a "mistake" offering?!
No offense, but you are getting a little on the pathetic side. You don't have to take my word choice and diagnose it and through it all out of context.
Ace said:
I never said it was an accident. The only thing I posted in relation to this accusation was for trucker to research and report back to us. You should be ashamed of putting words in my mouth.
Ace let me ask you 3 direct questions - I don't I won't be accused of putting words in your mouth.
If these allegations are true about this minister do you:
1. Call this act a sin?
2. Believe there are consequences for sin?
3. Should this minister be allowed to stay on staff?
David Brown, I will send you an email in a little bit.
Ace said..Sure mistakes have been made by people....but I'm wondering this...have you ever made a mistake or two...or one hundred in your life?
Yes Ace I've made mistakes in my life.BUT this is not a mistake it is a CRIME,and depravity. How dare you call incest a mistake.What are you thinking?What bible teacher ,preacher or teacher has taught you that this is a mistake.I dare you to look in the eyes of a child whose life is destroyed by incest and tell them it's just a mistake.I was a victim of a pedifile (not my parents but someone I trusted)I personally know what it is it like.
Why are you trivilizing this,you should be outraged by this,and demanding answers.
You are obvipously a young person ,one day you may have children then I wonder if you will consider sexual abuse of a child a mistake.
No Ace,
A mistake is trivial, but a sin is against God.
A mistake can stay hidden, but sin will not be hidden.
ace,
any way you slice it..calling sin a mistake is just rationalization...God doesn't call it mistakes. Adding 2 plus 2 and coming up with 5 is a mistake. Lying, stealing, immorality....God calls it sin. I think we should too..without rationalizing it into merely a mistake. This isn't a debate over tomato or tomahto. Words carry weight.
Words are what we communicate with ace. Either say what you mean and mean what you say or be quiet
rod almond.
crrv,
Take your righteous anger out on Gaines. He is the one who let him stay. I and others outside the loop have already spoken with authorities. They know his name.
Ace
I don`t think the Tennessee State Attorney thinks we need to have an open mind anout this!
Child Molestation And Abuse
Let's face it. Almost all the rules and tips about increasing children's personal safety have to do with your two big fears for children: sexual molestation and physical harm.
Each year an estimated 100,000 U.S. children suffer some form of sexual abuse. The average age of the child victim is 10 years old.
Teaching stranger rules is smart, but not enough. In the majority of cases, the child sexual molester is known to the child and the child's family. That's why only a minority of abuse cases is reported to the police. The abuser is often a parent, relative, baby-sitter or close family friend. Children may give in to adult's sexual advances because they fear losing their love, or fear their punishment. Therefore, they are especially vulnerable to sexual abuse by someone they know, like people who care for them regularly. Children are trusting and defenseless. Make sure you check carefully the references of baby-sitters, day-care centers, and recreation leaders.
A child may not recognize sexual abuse when it happens, or even know it's wrong, especially if the abuser is someone the child knows. Children must learn what appropriate touching is. Discuss it with your child. Many children instinctively know what proper distance should be kept between them and other persons. Sometimes a child may be uncertain about the intentions of another person. In this situation, children should know it's O.K. to respond in a way that makes them feel safe and more comfortable. Children usually know that genuine and gentle affection is different from someone who tries to touch their genitals or fondle them in any way that makes them feel unsafe. They should pull away immediately if someone suggests such actions, even if they're offered a present as a bribe.
HOW TO RESPOND
Children often make up stories, but they rarely lie about being victims of sexual assault. If a child tells you about being touched or assaulted, take it seriously. Your response is very important and will influence how the child will react and recover from the abuse.
Stay calm. In a reassuring tone, find out as much as you can about the incident. Explain to your child that you are concerned about what happened. Don't be angry. Many children feel guilty, as if they had provoked the assault. Children need to be reassured that they are not to blame, and that they are right to tell you what happened.
A child may need to be taken immediately to a doctor or an emergency room. Sometimes the child may need to be treated for V.D. and checked for pregnancy.
Law enforcement, special hot-lines or a child welfare agency should be contacted right away.
Sometimes, a child may be too frightened or confused to talk directly about the abuse. Be alert for an change in behavior that might hint that the child has suffered a disturbing experience.
Is the child suddenly more withdrawn than usual, refusing to go to school or afraid to be alone?
Is the child having trouble sleeping, waking up with nightmares, or wetting the bed?
Is the child complaining of irritation of the genital areas?
Are there signs of increased anxiety or immature behavior?
Does the child show a marked change in behavior toward a relative, neighbor or baby-sitter?
Other Child Abuse
Including sexual abuse, an estimated one million child abuse incidents are reported every year. Other forms of child abuse include physical violence, emotional cruelty and deprivation and physical neglect.
Child abusers are persons usually known to the child. This means most cases are not reported to authorities and children continue to suffer because abusers are repeat offenders.
Child abuse is dangerous and against the law. Many abused children will grow up and victimize their families, and others, later in life. It is your duty as a citizen to report suspected cases of child abuse by contacting a special hot-line, the police, or child welfare agency immediately. The children need help and treatment as soon as possible.
Child Abuse - A Public Health Epidemic
Is This Really An Epidemic?
Yes! One in five girls and one in ten boys have been sexually abused before the age of eighteen.
Who Are These Abusers?
90% of the victims of child sexual abuse know their abusers--they are the fathers, mothers, siblings, close relatives, friends, or other caretakers of children. They are rarely the monsters we imagine lurking in the corners of our playgrounds and parks.
Can Abusers Change?
Experts say YES! But sending abusers to prison without treatment does not stop further abuse. Those prosecuted for their crimes and assigned to specialized treatment have learned to control their behavior. A recent study in Vermont showed that without treatment, 38% of abusers returning to the streets abused again. With treatment, this incidence of re-offending dropped to 6%.
Tennessee Sexual Assault Crisis Centers
InformedAtBBC,
Ace let me ask you 3 direct questions.
Okay...
If these allegations are true about this minister do you:
1. Call this act a sin?
Yes.
2. Believe there are consequences for sin?
Yes.
3. Should this minister be allowed to stay on staff?
If 100 percent of the facts have already been presented on this forum (which they haven't) then no. More details (and facts) are needed though for me to come up with a definite answer. If he works with children then my answer in no, regardless of his past. Yes, he sinned before and he is still human and may sin in the same manner again.
CRRV,
Gaines has known for many weeks now. Let that sink in.
Others are just now finding out and they are acting on it.
Ace,
Sin, Mistake - what are you discussing? Peoples well being are at risk. If it is true, it is tragic for all. Prayer is needed. However, if it is true, dont try to figure what shade of gray this is. Meet leadership at their office and protect your children.
Ace,
for the love of gumbo, jus' say you wuz mistaken for saying mistake; or am I mistaken for suggestin'?
Ace I asked how would you defend the leadership on this now from your own words it was a simple "mistake" WOW Ace you are totally pathetic.
CJesusInMe,
Once again, I will state that what this staff person did is not simply a "mistake"! Are you really insinuating this act of sexual sin was a "mistake"? I pray that you are not!
When I used the term 'mistake' I wasn't talking about any in specific or a specific sin. I was talking about this whole ordeal at Bellevue in general... i.e. with Gaines and stuff. I'm sorry for the confusion.
Are you serious? An open mind about this when we are dropping off our kids to be cared for and there is a paid staff person who doesn't think that he needs to step down after him doing this sick thing to his own child? I'm enragged that you condone this and ask us to have an open mind!
Yes I'm serious. But again, you're putting words in my mouth. I do not condone such actions so I would appreciate it if you would take that statement back.
I'm going to pray an extra special prayer for you tonight Ace!
Thanks, I love it when people pray for me. (I'm being serious here!)
Read this part
v-e-r-y
c-a-r-e-f-u-l-l-y Ace
Child abuse is dangerous and against the law. Many abused children will grow up and victimize their families, and others, later in life. It is your duty as a citizen to report suspected cases of child abuse by contacting a special hot-line, the police, or child welfare agency immediately.
Rod,
Words are what we communicate with ace. Either say what you mean and mean what you say or be quiet
Okay, if that's the way we're going to play then I could have a lot of fun here. Oh wait, I don't twist people's words around because that is just downright low.
CRRV,
No he didn't.
Ace,
Please answer this question for me.
The minister abused and defiled his own son for some time during the son's pre-teen years, then the minister stopped and he says he has not done it since - to his son - this very same son who is suffering to this very day is the one that "outted" the minister.
In your opinion, all is well??? In your opinion, there is no accountabiliy?? In your opinon, it was a mistake??
On what, sir, do you base your opinions? Scripture??
We are talking about a minister at Belleve Baptist Church! Are you NUTS? How can you face God Almighty and condone this?
THIS IS SIN, THAT WHICH IS NOT NATURAL IN THE EYES OF GOD, SODOM & GOMORRAH WOULD HAVE CONDONED IT, BUT NOT THE MAJORITY OF THE MEMBERSHIP OF BELLEVUE BAPTIST CHURCH!
Trucker,
Ace I asked how would you defend the leadership on this now from your own words it was a simple "mistake" WOW Ace you are totally pathetic.
Who is the pathetic one? You posted a general statement and I responded with one too. You disagree with most of my points so therefore I am pathetic. Nice logic.
I thought that was you the second you posted!
Please folks:
Let stop picking on ACE. Fellow saints lets focus on getting to the bottom of this and the truth.
Let all agree to be in prayer tonight and tomorrow and that the truth comes out, good or bad. We MUST protect our children. As I have said so often "I DO NOT WANT TO SEE ONE MORE CHILD HURT AS I WAS."
We must take steps to protect our children and being truthful about this is the first step.
So please quit nick picking each other and let's join our Spirit as one over this situtation.
It is late and I am going to bed. NASS does have my phone number if ANYONE feels they need to talk to me.
I love all of you.
Ace -
You have still not answered my questions from my post at 10:39 earlier - I know you were writing an email to David, but would you please take the time to give us your answers:
If these allegations are true about this minister do you:
1. Call this act a sin?
2. Believe there are consequences for sin?
3. Should this minister be allowed to stay on staff?
Where I'm from, child sexers can get the death penalty, sometimes even 'fore they arrested
Crrv,
How do we know that he didn't know? Didn't this happen while Rogers was the pastor?
We don't. And based on what people posted here, this happened during the Dr. Rogers' time as pastor...
CRRV,
I'm sure some may try to spin this that way, but this came to light only because the son pressed it now.
Mom4,
In your opinion, all is well??? In your opinion, there is no accountabiliy?? In your opinon, it was a mistake??
Read my posts and not the posts people are quoting me in. You will see that I never said all is well and people here are trying to make me look like a creep.
Informed,
You have still not answered my questions from my post at 10:39 earlier - I know you were writing an email to David, but would you please take the time to give us your answers:
I answered your questions at 10:53
trucker said...
Ace said..Sure mistakes have been made by people....but I'm wondering this...have you ever made a mistake or two...or one hundred in your life?
Yes Ace I've made mistakes in my life.BUT this is not a mistake it is a CRIME,and depravity. How dare you call incest a mistake.What are you thinking?What bible teacher ,preacher or teacher has taught you that this is a mistake.I dare you to look in the eyes of a child whose life is destroyed by incest and tell them it's just a mistake.I was a victim of a pedifile (not my parents but someone I trusted)I personally know what it is it like.
Why are you trivilizing this,you should be outraged by this,and demanding answers.
You are obvipously a young person ,one day you may have children then I wonder if you will consider sexual abuse of a child a mistake.
REPLY:
Trucker I am sorry that you were the victim of child abuse and I am sure it really hurts for you to hear what is going on at Bellevue.
When we do nothing, we take part in the sin we defend or ignore.
Our pastor is a partaker in this man`s sin and so are the other leaders who have sat there and done nothing about it.
And so are you Ace, if you dare to have this information and do nothing with it except write your little comments here in defense of your sin soaked ministers at Bellevue.
Ace,
Dr. Rogers absolutely did not know!! Had he known he would have treated this as he did other cases of immorality. Immediately remove the minister. If you are old enough to remember...
25+yrs@BBC said...
CRRV,
Gaines has known for many weeks now. Let that sink in.
Others are just now finding out and they are acting on it.
10:54 PM, December 14, 2006
This is unbeliveable.This a Church. The company I work for would NEVER tolerate this.But the pastor of a Southern Baptist Church will keep it hidden and endanger innocent children.And members like Ace call it a mistake.I am in total shock. Someone , please tell us who this pervert is,that is the moral thing to do.
crrv,
Get lost speckulating on Rogers knowledge of this. Were you sent here to smear him when he can't respond? BOARD... leave him out of this!
The fact before is is that Gaines knew and did nothing for weeks. That much is true... anything else is spin.
crrv,
You must have never known Dr Rogers. Had he known, I believe he would have tried to lead him to repentance, probably suggested biblical counseling, perhaps put him and his son in the room together to reconcile biblically, then personally escorted him to the door where a police car was waiting.
Ace,
(i was pseudo ace/ new prospect, 'member?)
I dont think people trying to make you look like a creep. but there some people on here that have also been sexed on by adults; and generally, that is met with outrage. Your objectivity on de subject might be seen as 'downplayin' it. but i'm sure it disgust you too if it be true, right?
Trucker,
And members like Ace call it a mistake.I am in total shock.
What is your problem? You just love to stir up trouble don't you? People who are following my posts will realize that you are acting immature and misquoting me. You are unbelieveable...you really are...
Ace -
Sorry missed your 10:53 answer...
can you clarify your last answer please? I will paraphrase what I think you said:
If he works with children he should be removed, but if he doesn't he should stay?
Please clear this up because I can't believe you think it's OK for a man to remain an Ordained Minister with this in his past.
crrv
I would be very careful when you start to assume something. Dr. Rogers is not with us anymore and there is none of us who know what Dr. Rogers knew. I have known Dr. Rogers a long time and I don't believe he would have condoned this for a second.
He would have loved him if he repented but he would not have just dismissed it.
oh yeah, and fired him on the spot!
Backhome,
Your objectivity on de subject might be seen as 'downplayin' it. but i'm sure it disgust you too if it be true, right?
Yes.
CRRV you are absolutely scarry! You are talking about something you know absolutely nothing about and trying to smear Dr Rogers! Why are you doing such an evil thing?
Ace,
Thank you, maybe they lay off now, but dont be breathholdin'
IN REGARD TO Dr. Rogers - I think this post needs to be reconsidered. This is part and parcel to the problem or problems.
Custos said...
Noname,
Given that you're not at Bellevue, I'm not sure you're qualified to comment to the church's past. Certainly I believe that the current situation grew from seeds sewn before Dr Gaines came to Bellevue. Mark Sharpe and Richard Emerson both noted that Dr Gaines had been set up for failure given the lack of governing oversight.
While there may have been errors at the church before Dr Gaines got here, there are two issues which were left out of your post that need to be mentioned: First, Dr Rogers' presence obviously prevented the current circumstances from arising earlier--it's no coincidence that these things have happened along this timeline. Those who would take over the church knew they couldn’t overcome him when he was pastor. Second, Dr Gaines has had manifold opportunities to deal with the fruits of those seeds and to deal with the men at the root of the problem—the power players; and he has refused. He was also approached with concerns about the lack of oversight and he choose to plug his ears.
Given what we know of Dr Rogers, it is obvious that these men were only allowed to continue at the church because they concealed their ambitions from him, knowing that he would immediately stop them and likely eject them from leadership were he to discover their motives. It is clear that Dr Rogers incredible integrity intimidated them and protected us.
Contrast that picture against what we've seen in one year under Dr Gaines: Deceit, obfuscation, intimidation, law-breaking, lack of transparency, and defiant willfulness regarding all of the above. If Dr Rogers' integrity protected us before, and now we're open to all manner of evil, what has changed? It can't be simply the lack of a great man, it must be the replacement of that man by one who apparently is 1) a puppet of these men, 2) a willing accomplice, or 3) one who doesn’t see the above list as a list of wrongs. None of those possibilities are palatable to me or acceptable for a pastor.
I say all of this to say that while things may not have been perfect under Dr Rogers, he acted as a bulwark to keep this mess from crashing down on us. While the situation leading to this failure can't be completely laid at Dr Gaines' feet, it can be laid at both his feet and, further back, at the feet of these men who apparently long thought Dr Rogers to be "the spinmeister." We were rooked by these fellows too, and even now, many of the flock still are.
Suffice it all to say that though these men shouldn't have gotten into the positions they have, they never would have been able to act had Dr Gaines dealt with them once he saw them for what they are. After all, they’ve shown their true colors to him; and unlike Dr Rogers would have, Dr Gaines, having seen their true colors, refuses to deal with them. In fact, he seems to be either cooperating or colluding. For now, my money says colluding (and probably leading) given his words, deeds, and deceptions.
Best,
Josh
Custos said...
Thanks Karen. And I realized I needed to add one thing:
We can't hold responsibile leaders accountable for knowledge that was concealed from them. However, we can, and should, hold any leader accountably who sees wrong doing and turns a blind eye to it.
Informed,
can you clarify your last answer please? I will paraphrase what I think you said:
I will in a little bit, but I need to ask you a question or two first.
If he works with children he should be removed, but if he doesn't he should stay?
Before people start misquoting me, no, that's not what I meant fully.
Please clear this up because I can't believe you think it's OK for a man to remain an Ordained Minister with this in his past.
Let me ask you this...totally different scenario. Let's say there was a teenager (13 years old), not a Christan who comitted murder. He was sent to jail but somehow he got released when it was let's say...35. During his time in prison he became a strong Christian. After being released he went to school and seminary and got a Doctor of Divinity degree and everything...would it be wrong of this person to be a senior pastor of a church at age 55?
By the way, I want Informed to answer that question not anyone else. I don't want to deal with a hundred people answering my question, please....just Informed.
Thanks.
crrv...
I said leave Rogers out of this.
He would have fired him. You brought him up as did Ace and that smells of spin.
I know Gaines has known for weeks period!
BackHome,
Thank you, maybe they lay off now, but dont be breathholdin'
I hope so...I've been saying that I think it's wrong for quite a while now but people just aren't recognizing that. I appreciate your attitude with me...I really do...thanks.
CRRV, has it not dawned on you that perhaps the reason why people here with any substantial knowledge of the situation (which would not include me) aren't naming names at this point... is solely to protect the son and the family?
You're dealing with incredibly serious issues, life-altering revelations. This blog, interesting and useful as it is, is certainly not the place to reveal such information.
CRRV,
I do know for sure! You sir or mam are smearing his good name and I detest that! Go awaaaaay!
ace said.If he works with children he should be removed, but if he doesn't he should stay?
Well said Ace, once again you show your ignorance.As long as you consider child abuse a mistake(your words)and not a serious issue if he dosen't work with children it's ok.
My children will no longer be at BBC.I'll die before I let anyone abuse my children.
CRRV,
I know he did not know because the son just came forwward this Fall. Period.
Trucker,
I never said what you said in your 11:24 PM, December 14, 2006 post. Administrator: please delete that post or trucker, if you have the guts, delete it yourself.
You are acting like a criminal here.
CH said...
CRRV, of course we can't know for sure. The man is dead and gone. Let it be, will ya? Good grief...
Agreed...let it go...He's not here to answer, so it's pointless..all you're accomplishing is casting aspersions on his character.
CRRV- If the whole world knew and did nothing, does that excuse another person from knowing and doing nothing.
NO!!!!!
Your point is useless and really a pathetic attempt to bring Dr. Rogers down to Steve Gaines level!
CRRV,
We don't think he was perfect. But you are spending alot of time trying to shift this in his direction. Now why is that? hmmm
BBC'ers,
you have had concerns about bunches of things for a while now.
all these things make you wonder 'bout your preacher... if this new stuff be true, how he deals with it may cause there to be not as much wonderins'
Good grief this is worse than trying to resurrect Elvis...leave Dr. Rogers out of this...AND GIVE HIS FAMILY SOME PEACE, FOR CRYIN OUT LOUD.
CRRV said:
Ya'll are crazy to think that Dr. Rogers was perfect. He would probably be the first to tell you that he was not. It is not impossible. It is not a ridiculous question to ask if he knew what was going on while he was the pastor
Good grief man, what's wrong with you? No one here has claimed infallibility on the part of Dr. Rogers. To the best of my recollection, in fact, he himself was the first to say he was far from perfect.
And no, it wasn't a ridiculous question the first time you asked it. It has, however, become incredibly ridiculous since you won't let it go. You seem to want to pin some sort of guilt on a beloved pastor who is now in heaven, rather than deal with the perpetrator and his current enablers.
Ace -
You've done it again - deflected a direct question by asking another question. However, I will answer first with a statement then some direct answers.
Your question is of no relevance to this blog or the situation and is a poor analogy for the following reasons:
1. Your scenario involves a child who committed a SIN. The current situation involves an adult. Do you see the difference?
2. Your scenario involves an unsaved child - we are not talking about an unsaved person, but an ORDAINED MINISTER!
I will ask you a direct question one last time - if you can't answer please just say so:
Should this minister be removed from
the staff at Bellevue?
Ace again ''You are acting like a criminal here.
11:26 PM, December 14, 2006
Ace ,lets get this straight misquoting you is a criminal act.But incest by a minister is a mistake. what words of wisdom from Ace.
Crrv,
While you raised a valid point earlier I think you are taking this a bit too far now...it would be wrong to post the name of the accused here for everyone to see...
Trucker,
Ace ,lets get this straight misquoting you is a criminal act.But incest by a minister is a mistake. what words of wisdom from Ace.
Drop it, precious. I am done with dealing with you. Have a great night.
CRRV said:
All I want is the name of the person so we can stop all of this hiding.
In case you missed my post a few minutes ago, here it is again:
CRRV, has it not dawned on you that perhaps the reason why people here with any substantial knowledge of the situation (which would not include me) aren't naming names at this point... is solely to protect the son and the family?
You're dealing with incredibly serious issues, life-altering revelations. This blog, interesting and useful as it is, is certainly not the place to reveal such information.
Informed,
Should this minister be removed from the staff at Bellevue?
If it was my decision as to whether he would stay or not, I would have to talk with this minister about the whole issue first. However if I couldn't talk with him, then he would be gone.
Are you happy now?
crrv,
Then go to the authorities and demand...no one on this blog is going to name names here.
And why, CRRV, don't you stop berating us and go demand this information of your current Pastor? After all, he does know. And has the authority and responsibility to do something about it.
Enough about who was and wasn't wearing a tie! You are playing into the hands of the trolls...unless you are one.
honda crv,
you fixin' to get it now
Ace -
Thanks for answering clearly. This is sad for everyone, especially the family.
CRRV,
email the blog admin and ask her to forward it to me.
Finace,
Enough about who was and wasn't wearing a tie!
We stopped talking about that an hour or two ago...but now that you brought it up again did anyone see the tie that Jon Tyner was wearing? It didn't match his shirt...
Disclaimer: That was a joke for those who couldn't tell.
Crrv said…
“I can appreciate that except it bothers me when it appears that nothing is being done.”
You need to direct that statement to your Bellevue leaders. They are the ones who apparently refused to take action. I know for a fact authorities are working on this. Unlike our Bellevue leaders, they have just learned of this, but they take it seriously. I expect them to act with the utmost expediency.
I first heard this molestation story roughly two weeks ago. I found the tale so stunning I couldn’t believe it was true. Not at Bellevue! Gradually, as more and more details have come out, my disbelief and shock was transformed into belief and anger. How could our pastor know this and do nothing? How about those other ministers on staff? Was there not even one man willing to risk his job for the truth? For children?
The church has known this information was getting out to the membership since Sunday, December 3rd, if not before, yet they have taken no action to squelch the story. If this story was bogus, wouldn’t they have acted to protect this minister and the church from the coming storm?
I've posted this before, but in the past Steve Gaines fired people for divorcing. He fired at least three people for divorces at West Jackson. One of them was an innocent party who met the biblical grounds for divorce given by Christ himself in Matthew 5:32.
I have to ask what has changed in Dr. Gaines theology since he was pastor of West Jackson. He once took immorality seriously, what has changed?
If Steve Gaines wants to confront his enemy all he need do is look in the mirror. As the Gardendale deacon said last week, Steve Gaines is Steve Gaines worst enemy.
crrv,
As 25+ said, e-mail your question to the address in the profile, and I'll forward it on. Otherwise, please go away!
NBBCOF
Hey Folks, Look out - Ace has hijacked this blog. We can spin around so many times until we realize that this subject is presumably 3 weeks old. Tragic. As aweful as this blog is - where is Pastor or legit leadership to counsel? Why are matters like this allowed to come to a boil?
CRRV said...
why is it wrong for me to know who might have molested my chiild!!!>>>???
Crrv,
Unfortunatly, Ace is right. The name of the people involved should NOT be revealed here for a number of reasons. I can assure you that this person was not left alone with your child at Bellevue. The problem I have is that apprently is now okay to be on staff, and be an admitted child molester. Makes you wonder if there is someone else on staff who has been alone with my kids , and they admit to the same thing, and they are allowed to remain on staff, and it's just all covered up. This is where SG has messed up on this issue.
Memphismom02,
As far as I know, as of 5:00 this afternoon the minister in question was still on staff.
sorry about bringing up the tie again. I just got back on here and saw it. By the way, Jon Tyner is the best dressed person in the Music Office!
ace said...
Crrv,
While you raised a valid point earlier I think you are taking this a bit too far now...it would be wrong to post the name of the accused here for everyone to see...
11:34 PM, December 14, 2006
Why do you want to protect a molester who has already been confronted by his son(the victim)infront of witnesses?
This man needs to be arrested and tried in court for his crimes against nature.These perverts don't stop with one victim there are surely others .
By the way ALL staff members paid and unpaid screened for this SIN , which makes this man a liar and a pervert.
I think we are seeing SG's excuse for doing nothing he will blame it all on Dr.Rogers.
Ace I guess that you think that Mr.Haggard shuld be returned as pastor to his church after all he only made a mistake.
>
allofgrace,
much grace from my part of the country; I'll say this get sleepin'; yalls preacherin' problem gonna get takin' care of if this other sick stuff is truth;
you know this, GOD does not sleep nor slumber...when true Light shines, darkness will flee...and this too...when the LORD sweep His house, He not gonna miss any leaven
crrv,
the minister in question doesn't work with children directly, and to my knowlege never has. I'm sorry, but that's going to have to be sufficent for you for now. Your son is in no danger from this person. Please drop it. It's going to come out eventually, but it better not happen here.
backhome,
grace and peace to you as well my friend...you are right...His wheel grinds slow but exceedingly fine.
FinanceGuy,
sorry about bringing up the tie again. I just got back on here and saw it. By the way, Jon Tyner is the best dressed person in the Music Office!
No problem. I agree with your statement....either him or Ken Reich gets my vote!
Financeguy,
You may be right about him not being alone with children. However, are you sure about that? This man was involved in approving the fitness of those who work with our children. Can we know for certain he never had access to kids? People with this problem have an uncanny ability to find children when they want to. I am unwilling to accept his word that he only did this to his own son. I bet most parents will feel the way I do.
Again, you could be right and I truly hope you are.
crrv,
Forget it...it's not going to happen here.
Trucker,
With all due respect, and fully understanding your viewpoint, the idea here is certainly not to protect the perpetrator. It's to protect the victim and the remainder of the family.
In my opinion, the victim should be the one to decide precisely when and how this is made public (within reason).
Backhome, AOg
What is that 80's expression???
Word
backhome,
yup
crrv,
all this will be resolved..but it won't happen on this blog..as you've been asked...go to the proper authorities.
crrv,
And I do understand...I'm a parent too..as a parent to a parent..if you don't feel easy leaving your children with someone else at BBC...then don't..that's the best advice I can give.
CRRV
you have mail. Please read it and delete some of the posts where you have attacked the board, etc. Thanks.
crrv,
My friend - You are in my prayers.
Memphismom02 said...
Please clear up something for us parents: Is the man who sexually abused his son currently on staff at Bellevue?
I'm afraid it's true,and my children will not be at BBC until there is new leadership.
Not in my wildest dreams would I HAVE THOUGHT THIS COULD HAPPEN HERE I trully wonder whay the next scandel will be.
WTB,
"The church has known this information was getting out to the membership since Sunday, December 3rd, if not before, yet they have taken no action to squelch the story."
How do you know they have known this was getting out since December 3rd?
Ace (Gollum)this is "precious" good night old buddy
Everyone, let's be faithful to be in prayer for this situation and all involved, most of all for the son and the rest of his family. These are life-altering moments for them, to be sure.
Goodnight, all. Grace and peace to each of you.
Good night folks.
Ps 4:8 I will lie down and sleep in peace, for you alone oh LORD, make me dwell in safety.
To the concerned parents on the board, of which I'm one of them. Your child is in no current danger from this individual.
However, since it is now apparently Bellevue Policy to allow admited child molesters to remain on staff, we don't know if we should be worried about the people who do have custody of our children week in and week out. I trust that the church leadership will address this concern publically before there is a sudden drop in sunday school attendance in birth through college. That would affect the Young Marrieds as well, as they will probably take their children else where.
This brings up another conundrum. Dr. Gains and Harry Smith have developed a habit of delivering half-truths and outright untruths from the pulpit, I suppose to cover up "unpleasantness". How can we trust what we will hear on this subject?
This brings up another conundrum. Dr. Gaines and Harry Smith have developed a habit of delivering half-truths and outright untruths from the pulpit, I suppose to cover up "unpleasantness". How can we trust what we will hear on this subject?
12:24 AM, December 15, 2006
I don't trust anything I hear from the pulpit anymore. From the abundance of the heart, the mouth speaks... and there seems to be an abundance of rationalization and worse.
they say Peace, Peace, and there is no peace
Should this minister be removed from the staff at Bellevue?
If it was my decision as to whether he would stay or not, I would have to talk with this minister about the whole issue first. However if I couldn't talk with him, then he would be gone.
I'm sorry, I try to make it a point not to assail people in regards to their statements, but that has to be the most asinine statement I have ever read on this blog. Having researched pedofile behavior, these people rarely, if ever prey on only one victim. If he had one victim, I, for one, would automatically assume he has had more victims. While I can love the sinner, I am by no means going to provide him with the opportunity to continue the sinful behavior. And, if the senior pastor ar any other staff member of any church allows such an individual access to more victims they are accomplices in his crime.
This man has no business on staff or even serving in a volunteer position at any church. The only place this man should attend worship services is in a prison chapel for the next 20+ years.
I am the youngest of 3 girls. Our father did some things that should not have been done to me when I was six years old. I told - no one believed it! So for the next 10+ years he routinely sexually abused my two older sisters!! Our dad was a choir director!!! in southern Baptist churches!!! Unless you've been there, you have no idea what scars are left on a child in every way (emotionally, physically, mentally).
This can't be allowed to not be taken seriously. If true, this person needs to be removed from staff immediately! Our leadership must deal with it head on. Yes, it is under the blood of Jesus, and I pray the person has confessed and repented, but sin does have its consequences.
Fortunately for me, my dad never touched me again after I told, but great damage was done. Only after I started coming to Bellevue, as a 32 year old single Mom, sitting under Dr. Rogers' teaching and immersed in the Scriptures did any kind of healing start to take place. That was over 20 years ago. I just realized this past week one more gift I had been given during this time was trust. I realized it because I feel it slipping away again.
I hope I'm not rambling. I am so grieved in my heart over this. I love you all with the love of Christ.
Crrv,
Dr Rogers did not know. Dr Gaines does. Leave Dr Rogers out of this.
Josh
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