Life Choices
Mission Statement
Life Choices of Memphis exists to provide a non-judgemental and Christ-like environment to educate and empower women to make life-affirming decisions.
In response to the recent donation of $25,000 to the First United Methodist Church of Memphis, Life Choices issued this statement.
Mission Statement
Life Choices of Memphis exists to provide a non-judgemental and Christ-like environment to educate and empower women to make life-affirming decisions.
In response to the recent donation of $25,000 to the First United Methodist Church of Memphis, Life Choices issued this statement.
Bellevue Baptist Church, at the suggestion of pastor Steve Gaines, recently made a donation of $25,000 to the First United Methodist Church of Memphis following a devastating and highly publicized fire in October which destroyed most of the fully insured, historic, 113-year-old church building in downtown Memphis. The donation was approved by the finance committee but never brought to the congregation for approval. The gift was not earmarked for any of the mission projects the church operates but was presented to the pastor of the church, Rev. Martha Wagley, to be used as she and her congregation see fit.
Certainly not all Methodists or Methodist churches share her views, but Rev. Wagley is a known supporter of pro-choice (i.e. abortion on demand) and pro-homosexual (i.e. ordained clergy, gay marriage, etc.) causes. Should Bellevue Baptist Church be contributing to an organization whose leader holds these views and actively promotes these causes?
When asked about the donation, the Communications Committee's response was, "We didn't realize they had a female pastor." Rev. Wagley was featured on news broadcasts and in the newspaper for several days in the aftermath of the fire. Is it possible that neither our pastor nor anyone on the finance committee could have not known this?
Would that have been the deciding issue? What about Rev. Wagley's stances on abortion and homosexual rights? Were those things not issues? What if she were staunchly pro-life and anti-gay-rights? Would this have made a difference?
Certainly not all Methodists or Methodist churches share her views, but Rev. Wagley is a known supporter of pro-choice (i.e. abortion on demand) and pro-homosexual (i.e. ordained clergy, gay marriage, etc.) causes. Should Bellevue Baptist Church be contributing to an organization whose leader holds these views and actively promotes these causes?
When asked about the donation, the Communications Committee's response was, "We didn't realize they had a female pastor." Rev. Wagley was featured on news broadcasts and in the newspaper for several days in the aftermath of the fire. Is it possible that neither our pastor nor anyone on the finance committee could have not known this?
Would that have been the deciding issue? What about Rev. Wagley's stances on abortion and homosexual rights? Were those things not issues? What if she were staunchly pro-life and anti-gay-rights? Would this have made a difference?
ATTENTION EVERYONE:
I'm about to introduce a new "rule" for posting comments. From now on, everyone must make his or her profile viewable by others. Before you panic at the thought of revealing your personal information, if you'll look at most profiles, all you'll see is the number of profile views. There is no need to reveal any personal information. All that will show is your username and the number of times your profile has been viewed. No e-mail address or other information will show (unless you choose to do so). This is an attempt to keep up with the "imposter" problem we've had the last couple of days. Your cooperation will be appreciated. Comments by posters who continue to hide their profiles will be deleted.
428 comments:
«Oldest ‹Older 201 – 400 of 428 Newer› Newest»What we have folks is elder rule by a close knit group of power brokers. The congregation needs to be awakened to this. I agree with Bin Wonderin:
We need:
1. An apology to the congregation for mocking us at Union City. After all, some of us didn't fall off the cabbage truck yesterday!
2. An admission the cheerleader tickets are not a legit moving expense and reimbursement to BBC.
3. An admission Dr. Gaines should have never given $25k to FUMC and an explanation of policy changes to prevent a repeat.
4. A policy for open books on Holy land trips and no overcharging of members. Free tickets for the host and wife are fine but not for anybody else
5. A quarterly business meeting with open mike Q&A with each committee chairman. Transcripts on the web within a week;
6. A transparent committee selection process.
7. A good updated set of bylaws similar to GBC.
8. The signing of a public conflict of interest form for any member that has any business contract to provide services to the church. These people should be recused from committees that review bids for their services.
9. No church credit cards. Pay your own way and then turn in an expense report like I do at my job.
AND I would like to add...
10. A business meeting in accord with Matthew 18 to deal with the issues that remain related to Mark Sharpe and "the Dream"... AND any other loose ends that should have been dealt with months ago!!
11. The END of heavy handed dealing with ministers, staff, and members.
12. A whistle blower policy for ministers, staff, and members. Also:
13. Full disclosure of ministerial compensation: salary + benefit breakdown, etc.
14. Much greater congregational oversight of the current budget with a transparent policy for consideration of non-budgeted expenditures exceeding a reasonable amount.
15. Forgiveness for those in leadership who have allowed this to deteriorate to this point--AND consequences for their actions.
Revival, reform, congregational oversight... for there is level ground at Calvary and "he who would be great among you shall be the servant of all."
all of grace,
sure 'nough will; put some more stuff on there, man...done read all of it...by the way, it's a fine way to have some truth discussions without knuckle flyin.
the LORD keep you real good
...and if you know mr. gremillion, tell'em to read what I wrote on the other talkin page from last night
i understand, but that is not what truthwarrior and others have posted.
new prospect,
Will do...feel free to leave a comment on the forum...we can always use another voice in the discussions. I'll be posting more soon. And the Lord keep you "real good" too.
hisservant-1 wrote:
"the point has been made. you and others give many excuses for this blog and what is on it. every possible answer/excuse is covered under what I posted. you have no right"
Then likewise, Mr. Deacon, neither do you! So give it a rest. Please.
NASS
It's strange how someone who finds this blog so "evil", "libelous", "slanderous", "without excuse", would spend so much time on here.
Michael Wetzel,
You were fine already. Your profile was already viewable, and it wasn't necessary to add any personal information. Feel free to delete the details if you wish.
NBBCOF
Received your new tithing/offering envelope package in the mail yet? -The pink card inside is asking for a special offering to the Benevelence fund -
Isn't that the fund bbc said they used to pay the $25,000 to FUMC?
new prospect
I saw your post this morning, have a safe trip home and don't forget to eat some boudin.
Happy Thanksgiving to you and everyone
Ace and Hisservent-1,
Since you guys know Pastor Gaines so well and have direct access to him, would you please ask him about the $1,100 plane tickets to Florida for his daughter's cheerleading camp? Is he going to pay the church back for this?
Also, can you ask him about Donna's birthday party that was direct billed from Marriot to Bellevue? Is he going to pay this back? These two items were never answered to my knowledge.
I appreciate all you are doing to try and bring Truth to light.
Happy Thanksgiving.
Hi Nass. Happy Thanksgiving. =) If you find that my profile is not public, let me know so I can fix it. I'm not sure if it's already "BBC Forum compatible." =) God bless.
A.
TOPIC: giving money to FUMC
Tim said...
koragg,
So if our church adopted this same philosophy, you would be ok with that too.
6:31 PM, November 22, 2006
--- --- ---
Koragg said...
Of course not. But my point is, while there are differences in philosophy, we as christians should NOT be behaving in this manner. I mean, what if the tables were turned and our church had burned. Would you accept help from others who have different beliefs?
6:34 PM, November 22, 2006
--- --- ---
Koragg,
Don't give "meat" to be sacrificed to idols!
But, if your conscience is clear you may eat of the "meat".
Are you getting the difference?
Andrew
I Timothy 1:5-11,18-19
5 Now the end of the commandment is charity out of a pure heart, and of a good conscience, and of faith unfeigned:
6 from which some having swerved have turned aside unto vain jangling;
7 desiring to be teachers of the law; understanding neither what they say, nor whereof they affirm.
8 But we know that the law is good, if a man use it lawfully;
9 knowing this, that the law is not made for a righteous man, but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and for sinners, for unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers,
10 for whoremongers, for them that defile themselves with mankind, for menstealers, for liars, for perjured persons, and if there be any other thing that is contrary to sound doctrine;
11 according to the glorious gospel of the blessed God, which was committed to my trust.
18 This charge I commit unto thee, son Timothy, according to the prophecies which went before on thee, that thou by them mightest war a good warfare;
19 holding faith, and a good conscience; which some having put away, concerning faith have made shipwreck:
To answer those who claim that this blog has no reason for existence. Would these issues have become before the church thru any other venue? Was an open business meeting not repeatedly requested and denied? Should the church body not be made aware of these improprieties and abnormalities?
The following charges have been brought against the current leadership and proven to be true and accurate.
Financial Improprieties - Questioned, Denied, Confirmed
The semantics concerning this issue are astounding, whether these were abuse of credit cards or not is irrelevant.
The improprieties consist of:
1. Unreimbursed airline tickets for a cheerleader camp
2. A birthday party that was charged to Bellevue and although it was reimbursed, it was still in violation of IRS rulings that prohibit the co-mingling of funds.
3. A birthday gift of hotel boarding that was charged to Bellevue and although it was reimbursed, it was still in violation of IRS rulings that prohibit the co-mingling of funds.
4. The directed gift of $25,000 to FUMC that will clearly support the work of a church that is firm opposition to our teachings.
Behavior unfitting a Minister or Deacon - Questioned, Denied, Confirmed
5. The letters from Phil Weatherwax to Josh Manning of sheer arrogance.
6. The lack of response and humility to pleas from Joe Benson.
7. The lack of response and humility to pleas from Carol Pemberton.
8. The September 25 address to a congregation in Union City, that was not only uncalled for but also untruthful. I was there on September 24 and it was obvious that there was not unanimous support, nor was there any cheering, whistling...etc as if we were in attendance at a football stadium.
9. The informational meeting of September 24, which was immediately preceded by a twisting of scriptures in an attempt to classify those that sought truth and accountability as "adversaries". When the clear intent of the scripture was addressing the adversaries of the gospel, not those seeking truth and accountability.
10. The blatant and intentional lack of respect for the membership of Bellevue on September 24 in using his family as an excuse for not preaching on Wednesday nights, knowing full well that if he had no family at all he would not have been able to do so without having to cancel multiple speaking engagements. I would like to add clarity to this particular item because I feel that it is warranted. It makes no difference to me personally if he has other speaking engagements on Wednesday nights. It does matter that we were not told the truth. I would add in addition that it would be perfectly
11. The blatant and intentional lack of respect for the membership of Bellevue on September 24, when holding up a credit card claimed that it had never ever, not once been used for personal reasons. Again, a political use of semantics for which the church has no use.
12. The blatant and intentional lack of respect for the membership of Bellevue on September 24 in describing the actions of climbing an "itty-bitty" fence that is indeed nearly 4 ft high. Proceeding to classify it as a "mistake of the mind and not the heart" to minimize the admission of sin.
13. The blatant and intentional lack of respect for the membership of Bellevue on September 24 in reporting that all the credit card receipts had been reviewed and found to be in proper order with the intent of deceiving the congregation into believing that this had been done by a group of deacons or committee appointed by the deacons, when in fact they were not reviewed until a later date.
14. The condescending and lack of concern in responses by Deacons Blake, Walker, Struble, Whitby, Roberts and Jones to the letter of Charles & Pamela Gremillion, which represented the concerns of many others in the church as well.
15. The lack of concern or response to Deacon David Bishops letter to the pastor. The letter was neither disrespectful nor was it confrontational, but addressed the growing concern of what he saw within the membership. Deacon Bishop later became so disenfranchised with the administration that he resigned his position.
16. The reprehensible treatment of our Minister of Music, Jim Whitmire, of which I will not elaborate on because of the embarrassment that has already been caused this church and this wonderful man.
These are but 16 offenses.
The Declaration of Independence of our Country was founded upon listed offenses of Biblical principles with the intent of the writers to remove themselves from the power and oppressions of the tyranny of the king of Britain. With this same resolve that was begun by a handful of men over 200 years ago and by the Grace and Mercy of the same Lord that led and directed them, we should also proceed to break the chains of tyranny that are now binding this church. With that same conscience that God Almighty will proceed into every battle and conquer every foe we should push forward into every stronghold unto the regaining of peace and order and the placement of Christ on his rightful throne.
18 This charge I commit unto thee, son Timothy, according to the prophecies which went before on thee, that thou by them mightest war a good warfare;
19 holding faith, and a good conscience; which some having put away, concerning faith have made shipwreck:
This is what has been committed unto us by the prophecies that went before us and by them we will war a good warfare and by them we will turn so that we may save this ship from disaster.
In the Name above every Name, Jesus Christ,
Timothy
swtt posted: Since you guys know Pastor Gaines so well and have direct access to him, would you please ask him about the $1,100 plane tickets to Florida for his daughter's cheerleading camp? Is he going to pay the church back for this?
REPLY: here is a big part of the problem. you and others get on here and run your mouth and disrespect Brother Steve and others and spread rumors and truly have no idea what is going on. this has been answered weeks ago and many times on this blog. answers below: as posted before!!
1. Steve wanted to give Donna a birthday present of a night away with her good friend, Charlotte Guffin, the guest soloist from Gardendale.
2. Two rooms were booked for Friday night, March 31, and Saturday night, April 1, 2006.
3. It was direct bill to the church. The Amex card was not used.
(All Bellevue VIP guests are put up at the Hilton where we have a direct bill account.)
4. Total bill came to $507.88 for room and taxes only. Nothing else was charged to the room.
($126.97 per room per night.)
5. When the bill came in, Linda Glance wrote on it “personal charge - Steve will reimburse BBC. Linda, 4/13/06”.
6. Steve handed a personal check to Linda Glance made payable to Bellevue Baptist Church amount $507.88 on 4/25/06 to reimburse the church. Linda made a note and sent it up for deposit on that day.
Plane ticket background: Dr. Gaines' daughter, Allison, had plans to try out for cheerleader at her school before Dr. Gaines had agreed to come to Bellevue. They were vacationing in Florida when they found out ECS would be holding cheerleading tryouts. He called his former secretary in Gardendale who, in turn, called Mary Ellen Ward who made the arrangements through Regal Travel for Allison and Donna to travel to Memphis.
1. Mary Ellen Ward wrote on the invoice that Dr. Gaines would reimburse the invoice. Linda Glance was out and Mary Ellen was working in her place.
2. Mark Dougharty made the decision to pay the invoice as part of Steve Gaines' moving expenses. He reasoned that Dr. Gaines would not have had to buy the tickets if it were not for the church moving him from Gardendale to Memphis.
Reimbursed or not, which was stated in the charges. It is still in violation of IRS code that prohibits the co-mingling of funds.
Questioned - Denied - Confirmed
Again!!
swwt,
I think hisservant did a good job of answering your questions. You see... this is the type of thing going on. People spread these rumors (AKA gossip) without investigating the situation at hand themselves.
And then when it is proven that the rumors are false, all people do here is make up more gossip and slander towards our pastor. I think *a lot* of people owe Dr. Gaines an apology from this forum. And people can't admit they were wrong, that's another problem.
amen Ace! very well said
I call for an immediate third party investigation of all direct bills to Bellevue Baptist Church for the past year.
A birthday party for Donna Gaines had no business being direct billed in the name of Bellevue Baptist Church. If the pastor wanted to throw a birthday party for his wife, he should like the rest of us pay for it himself. It is wrong to co-mingle funds of a church with private parties. How do we know why it was paid off later. I heard that a minister on staff blew the whistle the day the party was direct billed to the church.
Since it seems like a lot of things have surfaced recently that were "direct billed", what else is out there. The only reason we know about these "direct billed" charges is because they were specifically brought to light. I'd say we only know a fraction of what has actually been "direct billed" since Pastor Gaines has arrived.
Again, I call for an immediate third party investigation of all "direct billed" charges to Bellevue Baptist Church in the past year.
The $1,100.00 cheerleader tickets are just another example of someone doing something on Bellevue Baptist Church money becasue, "well just because he can". It's obvious that no oversight is necessary for these things to go on. I call on an immediate third party investigation to find out how many credit cards Bellevue Baptist Church has. This would include "all credit cards". Then and only then can we be assured that there are not other charges we should know about.
In order for things to get better, the church is going to have to come clean on everything. The best way to do so is to open the books to an "independant auditor" that can be hired to do so. If the church has nothing to hide, then announce this being done this Sunday.
Tim,
Your list was good but #12 didn't actually mention that Steve Gaines, Mark Dougharty, John Caldwell, and Chuck Taylor actually trespassed to begin with by into a gated community after hours.
swwt,
The $1,100.00 cheerleader tickets are just another example of someone doing something on Bellevue Baptist Church money becasue, "well just because he can".
So was this charge incorrect? Would Ally had to have come to Memphis for ECS Tryouts if Dr. Gaines was not going to be our preacher? No. Many people are saying that's not a valid moving expense...I disagree and if you look at the facts you should also.
Also, if I'm not mistaken, a third party does review the CC purchases, and etc. and they have found nothing wrong with them.
So, I ask you this: are you going to apologize to Dr. Gaines for contributing to the rumors going on here? I'd like to know if you're willing to do that...
25+years@BBC
I totally agree...Along with that kind of Freedom even with the Elder led rule there needs to be responsibilty. Daniel 5:18-20 warns of when the heart becomes arrogant and hardened with Pride.Could the order coming down from the top been done out of pride?To me it points that way.Why?.Because of the hasty way it was quickly dispersed.I hope I am wrong.
And hope the leadership will admit that it IS heading to Elder rule.Because it has demonstated once again there are no checks and balances.I would have rather the $25,000 gone to missions and godly missionary families rather to umc.gay supporing organazations.
I cry tears because the writing on the Wall is Plain to see.Thanks again for your Truthfulness and candor...
since when is it mandatory that any child be a cheerleader?
why must it cost our church for anbody`s daughter to learn how to ra ra ra and show off her body to her classmates and to strangers?
Bellevue Baptist Church has not had an independant audit done of a nature that would zero in on credit card charges and direct billed charges. There are many types of audits out there and all of the experts I've talked to that specialize in audits say a special tartgeted audit would be required. Harry Smith and Chip Freeman have misled the church by hiding behind the fact that an audit is done each year with little or no suggestions to do things differently.
A lot of Bellevue members have moved to Memphis over the past 10 years. When someone moves, there are personal expenses that we all occur that our employers do not reimburse us for. Most members of Bellevue don't have a $400,000 plus package to live on either. No matter what the spin, most members don't buy it. For one man to be able to just make the decision to spend money like this just shows the lack of oversight that is actually there in spite of what was told the congregation by Harry Smith and Chip Freeman.
gogainesgo: you are totally out of line and please leave this blog.
Tim,
1. Unreimbursed airline tickets for a cheerleader camp
Read my above post. The airline tickets were not going to have to be purchased if Gaines did not come to Bellevue and move to Memphis. Therefore, it is a valid moving expense.
2. A birthday party that was charged to Bellevue and although it was reimbursed, it was still in violation of IRS rulings that prohibit the co-mingling of funds.
View the policy of the place the party was held. Gaines tried to pay with funds out of his own pocket but that was against their policy. What is he suppose to do then? Just walk away and don't pay and forget about the charge? I don't think so. The only way to pay the charge was to pay with the card associated with the account.
3. A birthday gift of hotel boarding that was charged to Bellevue and although it was reimbursed, it was still in violation of IRS rulings that prohibit the co-mingling of funds.
Yes, perhaps it was in violation of IRS rulings but perhaps it was an honest mistake...did you ever think about that? I assume that in your X amount of years living that you never made a mistake with your taxes, and etc? Actually, on second thought, I'm pretty sure you probably did, even if you didn't realize it.
4. The directed gift of $25,000 to FUMC that will clearly support the work of a church that is firm opposition to our teachings.
And to quote another post, previously posted by 'formerworkshipper':
"Has anyone ever given money to a beggar, and then thought later that the beggar might buy alcohol with it instead of food?
Why did you give that money? It was probably a "gut reaction" prompted by compassion in your heart for another human being.
Was your decision without risk? You couldn't control what the beggar did with the money. I believe God will honor your heart no matter what the one in need did with it.
"Freely you have received, so freely give.""
Behavior unfitting a Minister or Deacon - Questioned, Denied, Confirmed
Tim: Behavior unfitting for a Christain - Questioned, Denied, Confirmed. Nobody is perfect.
5. The letters from Phil Weatherwax to Josh Manning of sheer arrogance.
The arrogance of Tim's posts...you are just as guilty at times. And, *gasp* again, Rev. Phil sins too...
6. The lack of response and humility to pleas from Joe Benson.
If Gaines was to address every email, letter, phone call, etc. addressed to him regarding these issues, he would never accomplish anything. He is a very busy person with meetings, preaching, writing sermons, etc. This is why the Communication Committee was formed.
7. The lack of response and humility to pleas from Carol Pemberton.
See above.
8. The September 25 address to a congregation in Union City, that was not only uncalled for but also untruthful. I was there on September 24 and it was obvious that there was not unanimous support, nor was there any cheering, whistling...etc as if we were in attendance at a football stadium.
The comments were true, you can't deny that. And where were you sitting? The sanctuary is pretty big. Perhaps you are the one being untruthful here because I heard some cheering.
9. The informational meeting of September 24, which was immediately preceded by a twisting of scriptures in an attempt to classify those that sought truth and accountability as "adversaries". When the clear intent of the scripture was addressing the adversaries of the gospel, not those seeking truth and accountability.
I don't get what you're saying here 100 percent so I will skip over it so I don't argue with a point I don't understand. Feel free to clarify what you mean, though...
10. The blatant and intentional lack of respect for the membership of Bellevue on September 24 in using his family as an excuse for not preaching on Wednesday nights, knowing full well that if he had no family at all he would not have been able to do so without having to cancel multiple speaking engagements. I would like to add clarity to this particular item because I feel that it is warranted. It makes no difference to me personally if he has other speaking engagements on Wednesday nights. It does matter that we were not told the truth. I would add in addition that it would be perfectly
More untruthfulness on your part here... He said he uses Wednesdays for committee meetings and other church functions so that other nights of his week can be freed up for his family time. Also, God forbid he could go occassionally go out and preach at a revival. What a shame it would be to see him win more people for Christ (NOTE: sarcasm, so don't attack this statement).
11. The blatant and intentional lack of respect for the membership of Bellevue on September 24, when holding up a credit card claimed that it had never ever, not once been used for personal reasons. Again, a political use of semantics for which the church has no use.
I already covered this point and you yourself mentioned everything was paid back.
12. The blatant and intentional lack of respect for the membership of Bellevue on September 24 in describing the actions of climbing an "itty-bitty" fence that is indeed nearly 4 ft high. Proceeding to classify it as a "mistake of the mind and not the heart" to minimize the admission of sin.
Mistake = sin. You and I both know that. Now you're attacking Gaines' word choices...how nice. And a four feet fence is little. He could probably step right over it without any problems.
13. The blatant and intentional lack of respect for the membership of Bellevue on September 24 in reporting that all the credit card receipts had been reviewed and found to be in proper order with the intent of deceiving the congregation into believing that this had been done by a group of deacons or committee appointed by the deacons, when in fact they were not reviewed until a later date.
It was not reviewed by all the deacons until a later date. How wonderful, another lie from Tim. Other people reviewed the cards prior to that date.
14. The condescending and lack of concern in responses by Deacons Blake, Walker, Struble, Whitby, Roberts and Jones to the letter of Charles & Pamela Gremillion, which represented the concerns of many others in the church as well.
There is a difference between sending emails to one or two deacons than all of them, as if they were on an email list. There is also a difference between voicing your concerns and harrassing the deacons, as I have talked to some of them about this issue.
15. The lack of concern or response to Deacon David Bishops letter to the pastor. The letter was neither disrespectful nor was it confrontational, but addressed the growing concern of what he saw within the membership. Deacon Bishop later became so disenfranchised with the administration that he resigned his position.
If he really believed what he was fighting for, why did he resign? Why wouldn't he stay on-board and fight for all the members? Just something to think about.
16. The reprehensible treatment of our Minister of Music, Jim Whitmire, of which I will not elaborate on because of the embarrassment that has already been caused this church and this wonderful man.
And you viewed this for yourself? Or did you hear this from a friend? Or better yet, your friend's aunt's neighbor's best friend? Could it be that Whitmire was considering retiring long before Gaines came? Why, yes, yes it could be possible....
Didn`t I read that Harry Smith can not be trusted to even a letter in confidence?
Why would anyone trust him with the church`s money?
Didn`t I read that Chip Freeman`s wife went around denying that she and her husband were friends with Mark Sharpe when they really were?
Didn`t I read that Chip Freeman was the person who ran to tell others about the wrongful expenditure of our pastor and shortly afterwards left the church and then came back and denied anything was wrong?
Who in world would trust the church`s money to Chip Freeman?
I join you in calling for a third party investigation of the church`s finances!
swtt,
Thank you for addressing my other issues, but I ask you again: are you going to apologize to Gaines for the false accusations and incorrect statements you have made? Or are you going to shrug them off just like everyone else here?
Feel free to say no, it's not a trick question. I am just really curious.
ra ra ra
go gaines go
and pay the money back that you took for your daughter to be at cheerleader clinic!
Can anyone tell me why Pope Steve Gaines 1. Has to bill anything to the church .His base salary alone is $7692.30 a week,and that doesn't include the $40,000.00 from fleeceing the flock by taking them to the cleaners, excuse me,I ment to say Greece.By the way I almost forgot add to the above income from fees he collects when he is away on most Wednesdays preaching at other churches.At the same time Bellevue is paying outside preachers to come here to preach in his place.
How does money does this guy need?????
Is he a preacher because the Lord called him or was was the call of cash.
Ace: i truly feel very very few on this blog and other members will apologize to Brother Steve and all the many others they need to.
I see thatt a laywer has offered his services.
I would vote yes on that.
dontbeatthesheep,
.His base salary alone is $7692.30 a week,
Do you have some inside information that no one else here has? For example, Gaines' salary? More rumors for the pot, I guess, since his salary isn't published...
and that doesn't include the $40,000.00 from fleeceing the flock by taking them to the cleaners, excuse me,I ment to say Greece.
More lies.... He is not pocketing that money. He is allowing other people who can't afford to go on the trip to go. He is donating the slots to people. I kindly ask that you retract that statement.
I will be more than happy to apologize to the pastor and his yes men who have stolen from our church when they GIVE THE MONEY BACK AND STEP DOWN FOR THERAPY!
Here is what my apology will look like:
I am sorry that I ever knew you except for the fact that you have taught me what a Christian should not be like.
hisservant,
i truly feel very very few on this blog and other members will apologize to Brother Steve and all the many others they need to.
I have to agree with you on that...I was thinking the same thing.
It's sad how people keep talking about how Gaines has wrong them and owe them an apology, but when the truth comes out that he hasn't done what these people are accusing him of doing and they they were wrong, theythen they refuse to apologize to him. Seems very hipocrital to me.
dontbeatthesheep has a good point. I think the pastor has a CASH COW that he wants to milk to death.
GoGainesGo,
Knock it off. Let's try to be civil here. Your comments here are uncalled for and you know it.
You are just trying to stir up trouble and make us angry but I can tell you, you're not going to succeed. So- you never learned how to be a better Christian from Gaines? And...how many times exactly have you heard him preach?
And of those times, how many times have you actually listened to the message? Or were you passing notes in the service back and forth to your friends? ;)
Did you say our preacher ( I will not called him pastor again because he has shown that he does not have a pastot`s heart) is making over $1000 a day with perks?
No wonder he likes to be called DR.gaines!
ACE,
Galatians 4:16 Am I therefore become your enemy, because I tell you the TRUTH?
It is quite odd that your responses to the list of offences are limited to "what ifs" and "maybes." It is a strong indication that you are either not aware of the truth or that you are full aware of the truth and ashamed to say so.
The apologies for improprities are owed from Dr. Gaines, staff members, deacon officers and deacons.
Questioned - Denied - Confirmed
God is the Judge
Romans 2:2 But we are sure that the judgment of God is according to TRUTH against them which commit such things.
God has Condemned
I John 2:4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the TRUTH is not in him.
God demands Truth
Psalms 33:4 For the word of the LORD is right; and all his works are done in TRUTH.
God identifies the Inquity caused by Lies
Isaiah 59:3-4 For your hands are defiled with blood, and your fingers with iniquity; your lips have spoken lies, your tongue hath muttered perverseness.
4 None calleth for justice, nor any pleadeth for TRUTH: they trust in vanity, and speak lies; they conceive mischief, and bring forth iniquity.
God Resist the Proud
Proverbs 16:5-6 Every one that is proud in heart is an abomination to the LORD: though hand join in hand, he shall not be unpunished.
6 By mercy and TRUTH iniquity is purged: and by the fear of the LORD men depart from evil.
God Proclaims that Mercy and Truth are Joined
Psalms 85:10 Mercy and TRUTH are met together; righteousness and peace have kissed each other.
God Describes the Work of Deciet and the Work of Truth.
James 3:13-18 ¶ Who is a wise man and endued with knowledge among you? let him show out of a good conversation his works with meekness of wisdom.
14 But if ye have bitter envying and strife in your hearts, glory not, and lie not against the truth.
15 This wisdom descendeth not from above, but is earthly, sensual, devilish.
16 For where envying and strife is, there is confusion and every evil work.
17 But the wisdom that is from above is first pure, then peaceable, gentle, and easy to be entreated, full of mercy and good fruits, without partiality, and without hypocrisy.
18 And the fruit of righteousness is sown in peace of them that make peace.
The word of God is plain on the importance of TRUTH.
TRUTH does not change.
Truth can not be denied, until confirmed and then dismissed.
What has been labeled as the slander and lies of this blog, have been proven over and over to be truth. What has been told by the administration over and over again have been proven to be half-truths, political semantics, lies.
Why must we go thru the constant battle of:
Questions - Denials - Confirmation
Truth must begin with transparency and transparency coming after months of deciet will lead to chastisment.
I have heard preacher gaines preach a good sermon followed by a BIG ole lie about a itty bitty fence which makes his sermons null and void since it came from lying lips.
please go away
Tim If you sin, I sin is all we ever get this down to then would you please tell me why it is that the Bible says a preacher, a teacher, and a deacon are to be held more responsible than you average member?
Tim,
It is quite odd that your responses to the list of offences are limited to "what ifs" and "maybes."
Tim, Tim, Tim....did you ever read my post? Not once did I say 'Maybe.' It was not full of 'What ifs'...the only what I posted that was a question was in regards to David Bishop.
It is a strong indication that you are either not aware of the truth or that you are full aware of the truth and ashamed to say so.
Your first part of your post was FALSE, therefore this part holds no validity.
The apologies for improprities are owed from Dr. Gaines, staff members, deacon officers and deacons.
And apologies for gossip are owed from.....Tim, for starters...
The word of God is plain on the importance of TRUTH.
Yes, I am aware of that. Nothing I have ever said is untruthful. However, if I made a mistake, I admitted it. You, on the other hand, continue to post untruthful stuff one after another. And I've yet to see an apology. So- are YOU going to apologize to Dr. Gaines for the incorrect information you have posted here?
What has been labeled as the slander and lies of this blog, have been proven over and over to be truth.
You're wrong...but you know where I stand on this so I won't tell you again.
What has been told by the administration over and over again have been proven to be half-truths, political semantics, lies.
Wrong again, pilgrim.
Why must we go thru the constant battle of:
Questions - Denials - Confirmation
I don't know, why don't you tell me? You're the only one who seems to be posting that thing...besides me once.
New BBC Open Forum said...
hisservant-1 wrote:
"the point has been made. you and others give many excuses for this blog and what is on it. every possible answer/excuse is covered under what I posted. you have no right"
Then likewise, Mr. Deacon, neither do you! So give it a rest. Please.
NASS
GoGainesGo,
*Gasp* Steve Gaines has lying lips?
Want to hear something else that might shock you? Dr. Rogers did too!
And dare I say it....GoGainesGo has lying lips...and, *another gasp* so does Ace!!!
Unless I'm wrong here...and you're perfect, GoGainesGo? Please correct me if I am wrong and I will retract my statement on you.
25+yrs@BBC said...
What we have folks is elder rule by a close knit group of power brokers. The congregation needs to be awakened to this. I agree with Bin Wonderin:
We need:
1. An apology to the congregation for mocking us at Union City. After all, some of us didn't fall off the cabbage truck yesterday!
2. An admission the cheerleader tickets are not a legit moving expense and reimbursement to BBC.
3. An admission Dr. Gaines should have never given $25k to FUMC and an explanation of policy changes to prevent a repeat.
4. A policy for open books on Holy land trips and no overcharging of members. Free tickets for the host and wife are fine but not for anybody else
5. A quarterly business meeting with open mike Q&A with each committee chairman. Transcripts on the web within a week;
6. A transparent committee selection process.
7. A good updated set of bylaws similar to GBC.
8. The signing of a public conflict of interest form for any member that has any business contract to provide services to the church. These people should be recused from committees that review bids for their services.
9. No church credit cards. Pay your own way and then turn in an expense report like I do at my job.
AND I would like to add...
10. A business meeting in accord with Matthew 18 to deal with the issues that remain related to Mark Sharpe and "the Dream"... AND any other loose ends that should have been dealt with months ago!!
11. The END of heavy handed dealing with ministers, staff, and members.
12. A whistle blower policy for ministers, staff, and members. Also:
13. Full disclosure of ministerial compensation: salary + benefit breakdown, etc.
14. Much greater congregational oversight of the current budget with a transparent policy for consideration of non-budgeted expenditures exceeding a reasonable amount.
15. Forgiveness for those in leadership who have allowed this to deteriorate to this point--AND consequences for their actions.
Revival, reform, congregational oversight... for there is level ground at Calvary and "he who would be great among you shall be the servant of all."
11:32 PM, November 22, 2006
GREAT WORK!!!!
gogainesgo,
The effects of sin impact not only the one who is guilty of sin, but also those that are affected by that sin. My sin impacts me and those around me. God will judge those to whom much is given accountable for much.
A prime example is the effect of the sin of giving $25,000 to a liberal, abortion supporting, gay affirming FUMC. This sin has impacted our entire church. If I had given this money out of my own pocket it would not have.
Does this make sense to you?
GOGAINESGO said...
I see thatt a laywer has offered his services.
I would vote yes on that.
10:55 PM, November 23, 2006
gogainesgo
Athough I like the lawer guy idea I am really afraid that the IRS will step in.What supporters of Pope Gaines 1 call a mistake, the IRS has a different view.Sadly this "mistake" and other so called "mistakes"could cost BBC its tax exempt status.I can understand hisservent-1 and ace not realzing this as they are so young,immature and generaly inexperienced with the realtys of life.But the finiance guys shuold know better that to play withfire like this.
Pracher gaines needs to repent of his lying lips.
Most people at least fess up when they get caught with their hand in the cookie jar but thera are some that just like them cookies so much, they move into the cookie jar.
please leave.
Tim said...
gogainesgo,
The effects of sin impact not only the one who is guilty of sin, but also those that are affected by that sin. My sin impacts me and those around me. God will judge those to whom much is given accountable for much.
A prime example is the effect of the sin of giving $25,000 to a liberal, abortion supporting, gay affirming FUMC. This sin has impacted our entire church. If I had given this money out of my own pocket it would not have.
Does this make sense to you?
Tim this makes perfect sense to me.
Tim does this mean that you and I and every other member of the church where preacher gaines preaches is taking part in giving money to abortion advocates?
dontbeatthesheep,
.I can understand hisservent-1 and ace not realzing this as they are so young,immature and generaly inexperienced with the realtys of life.
And the attacks continue...when will they stop?
Ace said...
*Gasp* Steve Gaines has lying lips?
Want to hear something else that might shock you? Dr. Rogers did too!
The Rogers family said that Pastor Rogers died in peace.
What right do you have to say otherwise?
gogainesgo: you are a member?
Tim do you believe that unrepented sin can enter heaven?
ace said...
GoGainesGo,
*Gasp* Steve Gaines has lying lips?
Want to hear something else that might shock you? Dr. Rogers did too!"
Well well ace who defends all that pope gaines 1 does, call Dr Rogers a lier, Tell us ace boy what lies did Dr.Rogers tell.
I will have to keep this quote that you so wisely gave us to use and again
GoGainesGo,
The Rogers family said that Pastor Rogers died in peace.
What right do you have to say otherwise?
No right at all. What I am trying to illustrate is this: we are all liars. Every single person in this world...past, present, and future (of course with the exception of Jesus)
I am a member and I can not wait to vote the scandrels out so I be a staying as long as my vote counts
ACE,
I beg to differ with you.
I speak of what I know.
You speak of what you know not.
You have committed yourself to blindly follow irregardless of the truth. The offenses are all true, the evidence has already been shown and is indisputable.
I suppose if you have evidence that is in opposition to what has been presented that you should bring it in to the light. However, if you do not, then you should cease your own lies and issue your own apologies. Dispute the offenses with evidence that is contrary to what is known instead of your opinions and ifs and buts and maybes.
Ace,
Are you aware that there are many Bellevue senior citizens that live at or near the poverty level? There are also other members who have very difficult financial circumstances. These people realize what true sacrificial giving is all about. They joyfully give their tithes and offerings, always expecting this money to be used to advance God's kingdom. Can you honestly say you believe that paying for the Pastor's daughter to try out for cheerleading is advancing the kingdom of God?
dontbeatthesheep,
Well well ace who defends all that pope gaines 1 does, call Dr Rogers a lier, Tell us ace boy what lies did Dr.Rogers tell.
You're taking this the wrong way, buddy. It was not an attack on Dr. Rogers. So would you say that he NEVER lied in his lifetime? One just lie makes us a liar. You, me, anyone else...no exception.
I will have to keep this quote that you so wisely gave us to use and again
Feel free to quote me, but you better use in in context.
ace said...
GoGainesGo,
The Rogers family said that Pastor Rogers died in peace.
What right do you have to say otherwise?
IF you have unrepented sin, I hope you repent but don`t you ever say that somebody in heaven has lying lips because heaven contains no lies or liars
You owe the Rogers family an apology and the church one too.
Some around here sounds just like Preacher gaines telling people to just GO!
Matthew 18 please
Did I read where the deacons are talking behind some members backs, saying they are harraers?
This will really frost some of the members.
Way to go Ace, give us more to chew on.
Tim,
I speak of what I know.
You speak of what you know not.
Think whatever you want. If that's what you tell yourself to feel better and so that you can sleep at night, then be my guest.
You have committed yourself to blindly follow irregardless of the truth.
No, I have comitted myself to the TRUTH and making sure everyone is aware of it.
The offenses are all true, the evidence has already been shown and is indisputable.
It's indisputable? You and I both know you are incorrect on that.
I suppose if you have evidence that is in opposition to what has been presented that you should bring it in to the light.
Perhaps I have information that hasn't been posted here yet. I'm not going to post it because you will take my words, twist them around and attack me with them. You probably want more info because you haven't had any new "news" (gossip) going around here lately. But I'm not giving you anything. You have to work for yourself to find the truth...I already have posted anything that has been raised on these forums and that's all I'm doing for now.
I will say this...you are wrong on the Whitmire deal and I don't believe anyone here has all the truth...
However, if you do not, then you should cease your own lies and issue your own apologies.
If I have said anything untrue at any point, then I apologize. But when you take a look at all my posts, you will see that it is the truth.
gogainesgo,
To answer your question concerning the money donated to FUMC. Yes, we have become partakers of the sin of donating to a gay affirming, abortion supporting church. This sin has affected the entire church body and it must be addressed.
The arguments over the good ministries that this church may provide are idiotic. I suppose if the daughter of a staff member or pastor from Bellevue were to seek advice from this church concerning an unwanted pregnancy that they would suddenly understand the consequences of their actions.
dontbeatthesheep I am glad you saw what I did.
Ace obviously loves Preacher gaines at the expense of besmurging Pastor Rogers.
He was probably on the ra ra ra team for changing the locks on Pastor Rogers since preacher gaines was for it.
observant one,
. Can you honestly say you believe that paying for the Pastor's daughter to try out for cheerleading is advancing the kingdom of God?
I did not say that, no. What I said is that is was a valid moving expense. Gaines tried to pay it back, mind you, but Mark D. said it was a gift from the church. And I support that gift.
re:hisservant-1 8:12 p.m. post
per the Donna Gaines rooms fiasco
1. SG must have a personal credit card because he supposedly was going to use it for his daughter's birthday party at Colonial Country Club. He was unable to use it due to the clubs policy
2. Why didn't he just use his personal credit card to book the rooms at the Hilton?
3. Charlotte Guffin is not a VIP of Bellevue, she is a personal friend of Donna Gaines and should be treated as such.
4. All VIP guests are NOT put up at the Hilton. Voddie Bochum was booked at the Marriot.
All this info per Andrew's post at
3:58 p.m. on Nov 17th p.m.
Hisservant posted at 4:06 p.m.Nov 17th that he had known all this info for WEEKS
GoGainesGo,
IF you have unrepented sin, I hope you repent but don`t you ever say that somebody in heaven has lying lips because heaven contains no lies or liars
Again, you are taking my comments out of context. I said he "did too." Did = past tense of does. When he was on this world, in the flesh, he sinned just like you and I. He is no longer a sinner, as he is in Heaven with Jesus...
You owe the Rogers family an apology and the church one too.
I disagree. My statement was true and I am standing by it. Everyone has lied. And if you say you haven't, congratulations you just lied and joined the rest of us.
Did I read where the deacons are talking behind some members backs, saying they are harraers?
Who said deacons were saying people were harrassing them? Not I... please don't put words in my mouth.
So Tim, we are partakers of teh sins of those in leadership while they get paid enourmous salaries to keep us neck deep in sin.
How do we get out of the sin they put us in?
preacher gaines is a preacher who leads his members into to sin instead of out of it.
I don`t know why he want to be a preacher unless it is because of the $1000.00 per day that he gets.
ACE,
I have read enough of your posts to realize beyond any shadow of any doubt that you are hugely mis-informed. You have no details of anything, never have and probably never will.
I appreciate the fact that you would like to be a big shot and pretend that you are privy to some secret information, but it is simply not so. That my friend is something that you and I both know.
If you speak with any authority then proclaim it. The fact of the matter is that you will support Dr. Gaines irregardless of the truth.
Please tell all of the listening audience for example your views on the $25,000 donation to FUMC. I have read your post concerning this issue and am sure that you are no authority on anything scriptural.
Wait a minute...If preachers gaines doesn`t even have to work on some days to get his $1000.00
He`s got it made in the sahde until that tree falls
and it will, it will
Ace,
The money comes from those struggling people I just told you about. What about THEM?. How does this gift advance the kingdom of God since it is given by the CHURCH?
dontbeatthesheep,
the blind goose stepping followers of pope gaines 1 defend him by diverting attention away from the pope by attacking others,even a loved and respected pastor like Dr. Rogers.
Read my quote in context. I have not attacked anyone. let me ask you this: has Dr. Rogers ever sinned or lied in his lifetime here on earth? You, my friend, are trying to change the topic of conversation to something totally irrelevant.
Pope Gaines and his minions have reached a new low.Tells me everything about their lack of charactor.
No, by you taking my quote out of context, you are the one who reached the new low. YOU are the one attacking Dr. Rogers. YOU are the one who has reached the new low. YOU are the one who should be questioning your own character.
Tim,
I have read enough of your posts to realize beyond any shadow of any doubt that you are hugely mis-informed. You have no details of anything, never have and probably never will.
Again, tell yourself that if it makes yourself feel better about everything I have said. I understand if you don't agree with me and that telling yourself that stuff seems to make things better in your mind. I understand, keep on doing that as long as you want, Tim, mkay? And if you need a hug, just let me know...hugs always makes things better too.
I appreciate the fact that you would like to be a big shot and pretend that you are privy to some secret information, but it is simply not so. That my friend is something that you and I both know.
And you know what I know, how? Are you me? No. I am not at all pretending to be a big shot. I'm sorry I have some information which you are probably dying to know now. Perhaps you should go out and seek the answers to yourself and post your findings rather than soak all this gossip in. That's what I have done and I suggest you do the same.
If you speak with any authority then proclaim it. The fact of the matter is that you will support Dr. Gaines irregardless of the truth.
And you will condemn and attack Dr. Gaines irregardless of the truth.
Please tell all of the listening audience for example your views on the $25,000 donation to FUMC.
All the people reading can read my opinion in previous posts. I'm not going to state my opinion a bazillion times, thank you.
Since when are preachers and their wives and their wives friends VIP`s?
tObservant-one,
What about THEM?. How does this gift advance the kingdom of God since it is given by the CHURCH?
Does the church not help with financial problems? I know of quite a few people who have had problems and received funding from the church...
FIRST ACE SAID---
There is a difference between sending emails to one or two deacons than all of them, as if they were on an email list. There is also a difference between voicing your concerns and harrassing the deacons, as I have talked to some of them about this issue.
THEN HE SAID
Who said deacons were saying people were harrassing them? Not I... please don't put words in my mouth.
LOOKS LIKE WE HAVE A NEW SET OF LYING LIPS HUH ACEY BOY
ace said...
GoGainesGo,
The Rogers family said that Pastor Rogers died in peace.
What right do you have to say otherwise?
YOU OWE THE ROGERS FAMILY AN APOLOGY AND THE WHOLE CHURCH AN APOLOGY!
dontbeattthesheep,
LOOKS LIKE WE HAVE A NEW SET OF LYING LIPS HUH ACEY BOY
Let me clarify what I meant. They did not use the term 'harrassing,' they described the type of emails they were receiving. I am the one who came up with that term. I apologize for the confusion.
ACE,
Since when did you stop stating your opinions a bazillion times. Well, there's something we can all be thankful for.
I have done my own research for your information and the truth is not a moving target. The truth does not change. That is how I know that you have no privleged information. Not to mention the fact that you are nothing more than a kid that would have nothing of the sort.
Keep telling yourself and others that you know the truth if it makes you feel better. Although, I do not possibly see how lying could accomplish that.
Your support of the donation to FUMC and your unBiblical and liberal opinions cause me to wonder if there is not a stronger connection between you and Hisservant-1 than many may realize.
gogainesgo,
YOU OWE THE ROGERS FAMILY AN APOLOGY AND THE WHOLE CHURCH AN APOLOGY!
Again, I disagree. When you can show me that I said a lie, I will apologize. But as far as I know it, everyone on this world has lied, besides Jesus. If you can prove it otherwise, I will be happy to issue an apology.
Thank you dontbeatthesheep
I knew I had read that somewhere, I just didn`t know where or who said it.
Do you realize how damaging it is for someone who support preacher gaines and all that is going on at the chruch to tell those who do not suppport what going on at the church that the deacons are talking behind some members backs and calling them harrassers.
Now we know that there is more sin in the camp that we thought compliments of Ace
Tim,
I have done my own research for your information and the truth is not a moving target. The truth does not change. That is how I know that you have no privleged information.
It's not 'privleged' information. If information that can easily be obtained by talking to people. I have done that, have you? Have you talked to people @ Bellevue regarding these issues or do you rely on these forums for your information? Have you talked to the Communication Committee? Have you talked to Whitmire yourself regarding the issues surrounding him? I have a feeling the answers to my questions are no.
Not to mention the fact that you are nothing more than a kid that would have nothing of the sort.
I am a kid? Again, if that's what you want to tell yourself, go ahead. If I was a kid, do you really think I would be up at 1am talking you to every night? Wouldn't my parents tell me to get to bed? How would I be posting in the middle of the day, wouldn't I have school? Flaws in your accusations are already starting to come out.
Keep telling yourself and others that you know the truth if it makes you feel better. Although, I do not possibly see how lying could accomplish that.
And now you're telling me the same thing I've been telling you....heh, how cute.
Your support of the donation to FUMC and your unBiblical and liberal opinions cause me to wonder if there is not a stronger connection between you and Hisservant-1 than many may realize.
There is no connection, I can assure you that. And my opinions aren't liberal in nature. Another lie from Tim!
ace said...
dontbeattthesheep,
LOOKS LIKE WE HAVE A NEW SET OF LYING LIPS HUH ACEY BOY
Let me clarify what I meant. They did not use the term 'harrassing,' they described the type of emails they were receiving. I am the one who came up with that term. I apologize for the confusion.
ACE YOU JUST STARTED A RUMOR TO HURT THE DEACONS AND WHOEVER THEY WERE TALKING ABOUT
GoGainesGo,
Do you realize how damaging it is for someone who support preacher gaines and all that is going on at the chruch to tell those who do not suppport what going on at the church that the deacons are talking behind some members backs and calling them harrassers.
READ MY EARLIER POST: Let me clarify what I meant. They did not use the term 'harrassing,' they described the type of emails they were receiving. I am the one who came up with that term. I apologize for the confusion.
Now we know that there is more sin in the camp that we thought compliments of Ace
Nope, you're wrong. Do you see what you're doing? You take my quotes out of context then when I clarify myself you ignore those posts. How pathetic.
GOGAINESGO said...
Since when are preachers and their wives and their wives friends VIP`s?
12:03 AM, November 24, 2006
SAD ISN'T IT; MAKES YOU WONDER WHO ELSE IS ON THE VIP LIST ,FAMILY, FRIENDS OF THE INNER CIRCLE. YOU KNOW THAT 25 MILL WON'T LAST LONG THE WAY THEY ARE GOING THROUGH IT .THEN AFTER THE COW DIES THEY WILL MOVE ON TO GREENER PASTURES.
THE GREATEST SIN IN THIS IS THIS IS A CHURCH NOT ENRON
ace said...
GoGainesGo,
*Gasp* Steve Gaines has lying lips?
Want to hear something else that might shock you? Dr. Rogers did too!
11:52 PM, November 23, 2006
GoGainesGo,
ACE YOU JUST STARTED A RUMOR TO HURT THE DEACONS AND WHOEVER THEY WERE TALKING ABOUT
Perhaps I did because of the way I worded things, and I apologize for that. I hope that everyone who read my original statement scrolls down to read my clarification and what I meant by what I said.
And you, are spreading the rumor if you don't lay this to rest. I have admitted I wasn't clear on the issue so now it's time for you to drop this issue.
Dontbeatthesheep,
Quote that message all you want. Anybody who has gotten this far in the conversation has no doubt read the rest of the topic, so they know what I meant by that by my clarification and the context in what is what written in.
aCE read your own words
I am the one who came up with that term
You added to what the deacon told you and what you added was a rumor
DOn`t reply to any of my post please I don`t want to spend my time taling to you anymore
APOLOGIZE TO THE ROGERS FAMILY AND THE WHOLE CHURCH
ACE Said:
...I have a feeling the answers to my questions are no.
Concerning the sources of my information. Why yes as a matter of fact I have investigated myself I have spoke with those directly involved. The fact that I have makes me well aware that you have not.
The mis-communication committee. No, I have not wasted my time trying to figure what part of the truth they are telling from time to time. For some odd reason, they either don't have the answers are continually changing the answers that they do have. It sounds a lot less like the truth when it keeps changing like that. Some what like you. You don't happen to be a member of that committee do you.
TIM SAYS
Your support of the donation to FUMC and your unBiblical and liberal opinions cause me to wonder if there is not a stronger connection between you and Hisservant-1 than many may realize.
TIM= I THINK YOU NAILED OUR LITTLE FRIENDS TO THE WALL==GOOD JOB
ace said...
GoGainesGo,
*Gasp* Steve Gaines has lying lips?
Want to hear something else that might shock you? Dr. Rogers did too!
11:52 PM, November 23, 2006
Tim,
Concerning the sources of my information. Why yes as a matter of fact I have investigated myself I have spoke with those directly involved.
Would you mind sharing with us who you have talked to?
The fact that I have makes me well aware that you have not.
Nice assumption...You claim Dr. Gaines is arrogant. Have you looked in the mirror lately, Tim?
For some odd reason, they either don't have the answers are continually changing the answers that they do have.
And you know this..how? If you haven't talked to them, they how would you know if they are lying, and etc.? You are basing you opinion off of other people... Mostly unreliable sources.
Well, I am off to bed. I have to be at work early tomorrow.
ACE, I don't believe that Burger King will need you there until around 11:00, so you can sleep in. Hisservant-1 checked out earlier to get some rest and he will cover for you until then.
ACE,
Nice try, but arrogant is something that I am not. Opinionated I am, and especially when I have the truth to back it up.
By the way, may I point something out?
Today NBBCOF posted a topic about Thanksgiving. He/she wrote, "use this thread to tell how God has blessed you and what you're thankful for."
How many of you posted on that thread? Tim, have you? GoGainesGo, how about you? Surely if you two didn't, then dontbeatthesheep must have.
Wait...after taking a look at that post, none of you posted on it. How shameful.
My point in this: you guys don't want to post anything positive. You ignore and skip over that really nice post and come to this negative post and continue with this argument. You should all be ashamed of yourself.
gOOD night Tim
I can tell you`ve been hearing some big WHOPPERS out of Ace.
I`ll outta here for now
ace,
Have you now appointed yourself as the blog police?
Arrogance does become you.
Goodnight
Tim,
ACE, I don't believe that Burger King will need you there until around 11:00, so you can sleep in.
Is this suppose to be some sort of insult? That's very nice of you, Tim...
Nice try, but arrogant is something that I am not.
I think a lot of people will disagree with that statement after reading your last posts from tonight.
Opinionated I am, and especially when I have the truth to back it up.
You're opinonated? That's nice. Have you ever learned in school opinion vs. fact? I remember when I was there that was an important topic in...1st or 2nd grade.
Tim,
Have you now appointed yourself as the blog police?
No, not at all. I just wanted to point how negative you are, that is all.
ace said...
*Gasp* Steve Gaines has lying lips?
Want to hear something else that might shock you? Dr. Rogers did too!
APOLOGIZE TO THE ROGERS FAMILY AND THE WHOLE CHURCH
Have it your way....
ra ra ra
ace said...
*Gasp* Steve Gaines has lying lips?
Want to hear something else that might shock you? Dr. Rogers did too!
APOLOGIZE TO THE ROGERS FAMILY AND THE WHOLE CHURCH
GoGainesGo,
APOLOGIZE TO THE ROGERS FAMILY AND THE WHOLE CHURCH
I thought you told me not to address you anymore? And I thought I already responded to your statement already.
I am done addressing that topic as I already clarified what I mean you are you taking it out of context. Your lack of maturity is really showing at the moment.
I spoke to the Whitmires and preacher gaines was really really mean to them
Mayne preacher gaines and there is no doubt that he loves to tell WHOPPERS right along with little whopper junior, Ace
stillwaiting,
Just curious. Have you spoken with the Whitmires?
Yes, I have talked to Dr. Whitmire before and I knew he was considering retirement before Gaines came.
The Whitmires are not liars and that is exactly what whopper junior is saying
GoGainesGo,
The Whitmires are not liars and that is exactly what whopper junior is saying
When will you get it? Everyone has lied in their lifetime. EVERYONE. (besides Jesus)
The Whitmires were run out of town by Sheriff gaines adn his hangmen
when will you get it...
The Whitmires have spoken and what they say is contrary to what you say...
so, YOU LOSE
Stillwaiting,
Just wondering. I am sure at SOME point he was planning on retiring.
Yes, that's true...but who's to say he didn't plan to retire in Dec. of 2005 months or even years in advance? I guess what I'm saying in this...I was aware of his intentions to retire prior to Gaines' arrival...
Ace said...
Speaking of the Whitmires:
but who's to say he didn't plan to retire in Dec. of 2005 months or even years in advance?
THE WHITEMIRE`S ARE THE ONES TO SAY AND THEY SAY YOU ARE DEAD WRONG
Ace, and hisservant1,
brothers (I'm assuming you're brothers and not sisters), I see you come here every day and blast this blog and those who post on it..I ask again...if you think it's so evil, and no one has the right to be here...why do you two continue to come here?
Stillwaiting,
Have you spoken with the Whitmires since all of this happened?
Since what happened? His retirement?
--
dontbeatthesheep,
SO NOW YOUR IN HIGH SCHOOL AND KNOW IT ALL, BUY THE BE SURE TO PUT EXTRA KETSUP WITH MY FRIES.
What's with all the yelling? And you know I'm in high school...how? Oh wait, you don't know because you're wrong again.
--
GoGainesGo,
THE WHITEMIRE`S ARE THE ONES TO SAY AND THEY SAY YOU ARE DEAD WRONG
Oh, so you talked to them within the past 5 minutes? Did you call them up..."Dr. Whitmire, Ace just says _____...is it true?"
allofgrace said...
Ace, and hisservant1,
whopper jr and Mr.Potatoe Head seem to get together on here a lot.... Maybe they have signed a loyalty oath to show up here to defend preacher gaines and his yes men.
Allofgrace,
I see you come here every day and blast this blog and those who post on it..I ask again...if you think it's so evil, and no one has the right to be here...why do you two continue to come here?
I never said that noone has the right to be here. I know the reason I am here is because I see all this slander about Dr. Gaines going around and the lies about my church and pastor. And I'm not going to sit in silence and watch you continue to tear down the church I love so much and my pastor whom I love just as much.
Instead, I'm taking a stand for what I believe in...just as people on these forums are doing.
GoGainesGo,
whopper jr and Mr.Potatoe Head seem to get together on here a lot....
What's with the name calling? I mean, honestly... Your posts are definately not reflecting Christ at the moment. Think about what you write before you click the 'Publish' button. What you are posting is hurting your testimony...if you have one and profess to be a Christian.
ace said...
*Gasp* Steve Gaines has lying lips?
Want to hear something else that might shock you? Dr. Rogers did too!
You owe the Rogers family and the church an apology. You also owe the Whitmires an apology. You owe the deacon who talked to you an apology and you owe the person the deacon was supposidly taking bad about an apology.
stillwaiting,
And for the record, that's coming from what I've been told by.......them.
The next time you talk to them, ask him about his plans for retiring prior to Gaines' arrival. Perhaps he was treated in a not-so-nice way after Steve's arrival in the process, but there were plans in the work for his retirement before Gaines came...
GoGainesGo,
You owe the Rogers family and the church an apology. You also owe the Whitmires an apology. You owe the deacon who talked to you an apology and you owe the person the deacon was supposidly taking bad about an apology.
I told you, I am done addressing those two statements. I have already clarified what I mean and you are obviously too stubborn (and/or immature) to accept it.
I am not apologizing for anything I have said. End of discussion.
stillwaiting,
Have a gret night. Thank you for being mature in your posts. It was nice talking to someone who is kind for a change.
About the SBC...I heard different from him previously. That sounds right but still contradicts what I heard. I'll look into this and come back when I have more information regarding your story and mine...
Ace,
There's nothing wrong with standing for what you believe in..there's nothing wrong with loving your pastor...I've had one or two I've loved myself..and was very close friends with one...but I worry about anyone who's willing..even out of love...to excuse or overlook anything and everything he does. I don't think anyone here expects any pastor to be perfect. I personally have no agenda to "take him down"...in fact I really believe that if he doesn't get certain aspects of his personality under God's control...he'll take himself down. If you or hisservant are people who are close around him, and refuse to point out what I think are pretty obvious things going on with him, then you are being enablers. Love toward a pastor is a commendable thing...but real love confronts when necessary..it's not blind. And all our true loyalty belongs to Christ alone and His word. If we see scripture being violated then we have not the right...but the responsibility to speak up.
Allofgrace,
There's nothing wrong with standing for what you believe in..there's nothing wrong with loving your pastor...
Thank you...
but I worry about anyone who's willing..even out of love...to excuse or overlook anything and everything he does.
Here's the deal. I'm not overlooking anything....I really do know what I'm talking about. With these accusations first came out, I, like many of you here, had concerns about what I read. I didn't know what to believe but then after investigating the situation, I could clearly see what the truth was/is.
This all started with the SavingBellevue website... I know this board is not associated with it but the person behind the website (Jim Haywood) does not have good intentions. He has attacked me on his website before and that just proved to me he is a liar.
And while we're talking about Mr. Haywood, why don't you email him asking about his latest project? He's working on a project to sell a book about these issues surrounding the church. It's about GBC and it's only $21 to preorder your book. It'll tell you how to stop BBC from being the next GBC... It looks like he's resorting to try to make a profit out of this deal.... So email him if you want to reserve your copy of this book.
I don't think anyone here expects any pastor to be perfect.
If you read the posts here, you'll see that people are expecting Gaines to be perfect. Claiming that there is a sinner in the pulpit...
If you or hisservant are people who are close around him, and refuse to point out what I think are pretty obvious things going on with him, then you are being enablers. Love toward a pastor is a commendable thing...but real love confronts when necessary..it's not blind.
Believe me, I disagree with BBC on many issues...and have for several years. But it's not all about me, you know? I am not blindfully following Gaines. I have done the research and am just trying to convey the truth.
And all our true loyalty belongs to Christ alone and His word.
Amen!
Allofgrace,
Also, thank you for your kind and loving post. Instead of attacking the poster like many people here are doing, you are addressing the issue without insulting anyone.
I wish more people would take your example. I just wanted to say thanks, that's all.
What we have here with Ace, Hisservent, and the rest of the inner circle is leadership of the elete. They have been insiders for so long now that they honestly don't see anything wrong with it.
Since when does a church have a list of VIP's. This sickens my stomach to hear people supporting the illegal spending of church money and treating certain people like they are royalty.
I want to see Bellevue's definition of a VIP. It makes me wonder if we would have visiting preachers from out of town come if we didn't pay them $1000's of dollars (up to $5,000 for some prreachers) and keep them in nice hotels when they stay. I vote to extend an invitation to all guest preachers who have visited in the past year since Steve Gaines has arrived and let them know up front that the only thing we are paying for is their travel here and meals. I wonder how many would have a schedule conflict? It sure would be interesting.
I wonder how much Steve Gaines has made this past year traveling all over the country preaching at other churches (even the preaching engagements on Wednesday nights).
I wonder who is sitting at the right hand of the pastor at his meals when his "leadership team" are invited to feast with him at Ruth's Chris?
Mark 9
33: They came to Capernaum. When he was in the house, he asked them, "What were you arguing abuot on the road?"
34: But they kept quiet because on the way they had argued about who was the greatest.
35: Sitting down, Jesus called the Twelve and said, "If anyone wants to be first, he must be the very last, and the servant of all."
36: He took a little child and had him stand among them. Taking him in his arms, he said to them,
37: "Whoever welcomes one of these little children in my name welcomes me; and whoever welcomes me does not welcome me but the one who sent me."
Jesus knew his arrogant disciples had argued among themselves about who was the greatest.
This book that Ace is speaking of is a result of a GBC couple who have been lead by the Holy Spirit to publish a book warning churches around the Southern Baptist Convention of preachers who come into a church and start ripping it apart.
The book is about preachers who come in, take total control, surround themselves with wealthy men, change the music, control the finances, get rid of the old people first and tell people to get out if they don't like it.
Jim Haywood has nothing to do with this. I'll get the details of the couple at GBC who put this book together.
I've heard they have a passion to warn churches all over America that men like Sam Shaw and Steve Gaines are coming after them and to keep their guard up.
I've heard it gives churches a good way to put a stop to these elder type and Rick Warren type styled preachers.
Ace once again is going to have to eat crow on something else he knows nothing about but acts like he does.
Ace is once again putting things out over the website that he knows nothing about. How is it that when someone wants to find what the truth is, it’s not usually that hard to find out.
Ace accused Jim Haywood of trying to sell a book. Ace is wrong again. What Ace is confused with is a book that’s a compilation of letters, documents, e-mail and legal opinions with several solicited articles included that were circulated during the Germantown Baptist Church’s effort to stop Sam Shaw and company from hijacking their church into Rick Warrenism any further.
The author and seller of “THE BOOK” is a 75 year old man named Frank L. Russell. He’s been a Southern Baptist all of his life and he’s a baptized, priesthood of the believer, Bible believing Baptist!
The reason for Frank to take the time to compile this book (almost 300 pages) is to warn other Southern Baptist Churches of what GBC just went through, which was a bruising and difficult process whereby Sam Shaw Pastor attempted to move GBC church from a congregational led constitution and bylaws to an elder ruled constitution and bylaws.
Frank Russell believes the Southern Baptist are being attacked all over this nation by men who are wanting to make changes that water down the Gospel and create a “seeker friendly” church environment of Rick Warrensism and Elder Rule.
Ace did get something right. The cost of the book I understand is $15 or $21 if he needs to ship it to you. I’m told it’s a big book and Frank L. Russell is not making any money on it. It’s been said that he is so passionate about what is going on in the SBC that he’s ready to spend his “life savings” on getting this word out.
God bless you Frank Russell if you read this. If you want to order a book from Frank, I don’t have his phone number but it can be ordered at: THE BOOK , PO Box 382458, Germantown, TN 38138-2458.
If I can get his web address, I’ll post it.
God bless you Frank. I wish Bellevue had sent you $25,000 instead of the First United Methodist Church.
Tim,
Please get my email from NASS. I need to speak with you privately.
Thanks,
Diana Hart
Real Ace,
I'm just reading your post from 8:33 pm on Nov 22 and I can tell you I don't think it is funny at all that someone is playing around with your name. We aren't all awful, you know? Give us a chance. I don't agree with you but you are at least hospitable most of the time.
Diana
"wtt said...
Ace is once again putting things out over the website that he knows nothing about. How is it that when someone wants to find what the truth is, it’s not usually that hard to find out."
So what else is new.It's ace.
"Stillamember said...
DONTBEATTHESHEEP!
Listen, maybe I missed something, but can you verify where you got the salary amount of Steve Gaines????
That's kind of a big deal to put something like that out there without verifying it to to everyone."
8:45 AM, November 24, 2006
I just took the $400000.00 /yr
that we keep hearing about and divided it by 52 weeks.This way we get a better feel for the amount of money involved when compaired to our weekly paycheck. To be honest, I really hope that the leadership corrects me with the actual salery for SG and I pray it is much lower.
Ace no comments about this salery issue you have a proven track record that you have no real knowledge about the issues here at BBC.
Looks like we could have another imposter. I've found at least two posters using "dontbeatthesheep," and now we have a "dontbeatthe sheep" (space between the "e" and the "s"). If this was an oversight on the part of one or more people, then please change your screen name(s) to something unique and e-mail me. If it wasn't, cut it out!
NBBCOF
ace said...
By the way, may I point something out?
Today NBBCOF posted a topic about Thanksgiving. He/she wrote, "use this thread to tell how God has blessed you and what you're thankful for."
How many of you posted on that thread? Tim, have you? GoGainesGo, how about you? Surely if you two didn't, then dontbeatthesheep must have.
Wait...after taking a look at that post, none of you posted on it. How shameful.
My point in this: you guys don't want to post anything positive. You ignore and skip over that really nice post and come to this negative post and continue with this argument. You should all be ashamed of yourself.
---
Mark 12
38: As he taught, Jesus said, "Watch out for the teachers of the law. They like to walk around in flowing robes and be greeted in the marketplaces,
39: and have the most important seates in the synagogues and the places of honor at banquets.
40: They devour widows' houses and for a show make lengthy prayers. Such men will be punished most severely.
I've heard of several examples of this very same thing happening. It makes me sick and Ace should be ashamed of himself pointing out that someone didn't post. I wonder what his motive for posting was?
dontbeatthesheep,
Ace no comments about this salery issue you have a proven track record that you have no real knowledge about the issues here at BBC.
Continually posting salary numbers which have never been published? Can you say gossip?
I think those without a closed mind and the attitude of rejecting everything I say prior to saying it are gaining lots of information from my posts. And if one person knows the real truth because of me, then all my time here was worth it.
Real Ace,
I need to change that to you are hospitable SOME of the time. You have been very rude to Tim and others - I posted before I read all the way down. Please get your facts straight. I have heard about The Book as well and I haven't heard one word about Jim Haywood having anything to do with it.
Let us ALL try to be more hospitable in the future. This is beginning to go downhill very quickly.
Diana
swtt,
This book that Ace is speaking of is a result of a GBC couple who have been lead by the Holy Spirit to publish a book warning churches around the Southern Baptist Convention of preachers who come into a church and start ripping it apart.
Yes, I know that a GBC couple is behind it.
Jim Haywood has nothing to do with this. I'll get the details of the couple at GBC who put this book together.
Absolutely nothing at all? Why don't you contact him and see if there's a connection....
Ace once again is going to have to eat crow on something else he knows nothing about but acts like he does.
No, he is involved in getting this book out... why don't you talk to him about it? Wait - are you Jim? If so, you know how you are involved.
Ace is once again putting things out over the website that he knows nothing about.
Nope, you're wrong.
Ace did get something right. The cost of the book I understand is $15 or $21 if he needs to ship it to you. I’m told it’s a big book
While you're ordering your copy, why don't you order one for your friends as well? Save $2 on each additional copy you purchase! So, you'll get 2 for $39 - what a deal! It'll make a great Christmas present.
swwt,
It makes me sick and Ace should be ashamed of himself pointing out that someone didn't post. I wonder what his motive for posting was?
If you read all my posts, you would know why I posted that. It's to prove that you are only negative and you can't participate in a positive topic. Really- it's not that hard to understand.
Diana,
I need to change that to you are hospitable SOME of the time. You have been very rude to Tim and others
I disagree about the rudeness. It's the other way around. Tim is the one who is always rude and can't accept the fact that I might, I just might be right.
Please get your facts straight. I have heard about The Book as well and I haven't heard one word about Jim Haywood having anything to do with it.
Just because you haven't heard about it doesn't mean it's not a fact. I suggest you contact Jim to see if he has anything to do with that project.
ace,
I will contact Jim Haywood about this. It will take a few days since he isn't available right now.
I don't believe that Jim stands to benefit in any way from the publication of this book. In fact, I don't see any information about it on his site at all. Where are you getting this?
I will report back with my findings as soon as I know something. If, in fact, Jim isn't benefiting monetarily from the publication of the book, I will place a link for information for it on this site. Several people have reported that Steve Gaines has been meeting with Sam Shaw, some of those meetings taking place within the walls of Bellevue itself, and if he's learning from Sam Shaw what not to do, maybe we could learn a few lessons from some of Sam Shaw's former sheep.
NBBCOF
"Ace said--
I disagree about the rudeness. It's the other way around. Tim is the one who is always rude and can't accept the fact that I might, I just might be right."
No Ace Tim is not rude he is truthful
"Ace said
Believe me, I disagree with BBC on many issues...and have for several years. But it's not all about me, you know? I am not blindfully following Gaines. I have done the research and am just trying to convey the truth"
Well; tell us where you disagree with SG. I have yet to see a post from you showing any disagreement with Sg..It's all been hero worship
Diana Hart,
You've got Mail! :{)
NASS,
You've got Mail! :{)
I will contact Jim Haywood about this. It will take a few days since he isn't available right now.
Good for you about contacting him...I believe other should do the same.
I don't believe that Jim stands to benefit in any way from the publication of this book.
$15 for a book + $6 for shipping? Whether Jim is involved in taking a portion of the funds or if it's just Mr. Russell, somebody here is making a profit. Let's examine that shipping charge, for instance. I could mail a book for $2, max $3 at the post office. That leaves $3 extra...let's say 100 books were ordred...cha-ching $300.
In fact, I don't see any information about it on his site at all. Where are you getting this?
Seeing how it hasn't been posted on his site proves that I have done my research. Otherwise how else would I get this info?
I will report back with my findings as soon as I know something.
Thank you. Again - you will realize that Jim is involved in this project (even if it's in the smallest way). If he denies it, email me and I will send you the proof.
bontbeatthesheeo,
I don't believe you are the real 'dontbeatthesheep' seeing how your username keeps changing with spaces + spelling errors.
Please pick another username or post under your original one and I will address your topics.
ACE,
I have carefully read thru every post that you have made on this thread. There is not one single item that you can say that you have offered any enlightment to those that read this blog. Not one.
You have continually, dismissed every allegation of wrong doing by our current administration as lies, but have not presented one shread of truth.
As to your post that "I do not accept the fact that you might be right." Please tell me what it is that you are right about.
If you support the current leadership in saying that the $25,000 donation was made because they are "ignorant", then you and I are in 100% agreement.
You are right about issues concerning semantics, such as the debate over Steve Gaines calling Mark Sharpe "Hezbolah". The correct terminolgy should have been "acting like Hezbolah". But this is another issued that was questioned, denied and confirmed and the semantics are irrelevant.
You are right in saying that there is no "truth" that you have stated that can be disputed, because you have stated none.
The fact of the matter is you may be 100% right. Our current leadership may be leading our church 180 degrees in the wrong direction. Especially, if your views are any representation of theirs.
I as well encourage those that want to know to go to the source, but I will also caution them to judge the source of their information. If the information is continually changing it is a good indication that you have not got the truth. It is impossible to go to the group that is responsible for the problems that exist to get the answers for why they exist. This blog has exposed the amount of mis-information being generated by our "leadership" time and time again.
Unfortunately, there is a huge difference between being "right" and being "righteous". Being "right" is a matter of personal opinion in many instances. Being "righteous" is forsaking our opinions and relying upon Gods Word and truth. I believe that you may do well to quit trying to be right and start trying to be righteous.
'ace said...
bontbeatthesheeo,
I don't believe you are the real 'dontbeatthesheep' seeing how your username keeps changing with spaces + spelling errors."
Please pick another username or post under your original one and I will address your topics."
Ace, don't cloud the. Please answer the question. Tell where you disagree with SG.Were you honest about your ststement below.
""Ace said
Believe me, I disagree with BBC on many issues...and have for several years. But it's not all about me, you know? I am not blindfully following Gaines."
SO MANY OF THESE COMMENTS ARE DRIPPING WITH SARCASM AND UNDERHANDED AND/OR OUTRIGHT SLURS. This is a legitimate question and not meant as rhetoric:
In your own mind, does anyone actually believe that because they are right, they are entitled to speak condescendly or in a manner that belittles the other person? Is it justified because you yourself feel personally attacked or believe you've earned the right to offend? Are we functioning on the basis of an "eye for an eye" mentality?
I ask this because I know often times I myself believe that becuase what I am advocating or arguing for is right that I am entitled to be, on some level, harsh or smug about it.
It is so easy to insist on one's own opinion, but so hard to defend one's position. But if everyone could do more of the latter and less of the former, I think you'd be taken more seriously by each other and maybe even by the world. I know I would simply HEAR you more clearly if all the overtones weren't so loud.
Christians seem notorious for being incapable of interacting with the pagan intellectual and it's this blog and blogs like Bratton's that have helped me see why we are so far removed from having much to say to those type of people. If we interact like this with each other upon a disagreement or a conflict of beliefs..how can we expect to converse with those who are fundamentally separated from us...as in, unrelated to us...lost...not yet found. The person in charge of this blog has pleaded for the comments to be kept civil, but I fear the request has been sorely overlooked.
Sometimes the comments simply ooze with self-righteous and prude sounding piety. I understand this is the internet and the tone of your voice is impossible to hear. I hope that I'm hearing everyone incorrectly. But if I were a regular on this blog, it would worry me that God can see my heart and the motive behind my words. Whether or not you are entirely correct in your stance almost becomes irrelevant when the tone of sarcasm/meanness is so hard to ignore.
Just some thoughts..
A Church Musician
church_musician,
Possibly you are referring to my most recent post and possibly to others that I have made.
My questions and positions are legitimate and founded in truth. Unfortunately, there are those that have choose to taint truth with semantics and half truths. If these comments are ignored they will be precieved as truth by those who read and if they are precieved as truth, then we will be well along the road to becoming the church of Laodecia, if we are not indeed already there.
church_musician said...
SO MANY OF THESE COMMENTS ARE DRIPPING WITH SARCASM AND UNDERHANDED AND/OR OUTRIGHT SLURS
REPLY:
If you concerned about slurs, please get off your computer and go to Bellevue today and find out if Phil Weatherwax uses racisl slurs.
Church Musician said....
In your own mind, does anyone actually believe that because they are right, they are entitled to speak condescendly or in a manner that belittles the other person?
REPLY:
Pastor Steve speaks condescendly to the members of his flock, his sermons are laced with hate for the sheep, he speaks in other churches and belittles his own flock. If you are that concerned about condescending remarks or belitting remarks, get off your computer and go to the church right now and ask our pastor why he does this and ask him to stop it.
Church Musican said....
Sometimes the comments simply ooze with self-righteous and prude sounding piet
REPLY: Again I turn you to our pastor. Go to him and ask him why he oozes with self righteousness and hate. Teach him if you can.
His words go everywhere around the internet via the Bellevue website. Does he understand the the power of his hateful words? I think he does and like to do it.
Jesus talked harshly to those who had unrepented and hard hearts.
We are dealing with a brood of vipers.
Let me say this again...
BROOD OF VIPERS.
Now, is that better Church Musician?
If you are one of Bellevue`s musician, please go tell Jamime to stop and think about his part in what was done to Jim Whitmire and while you are at it, ask him to show his Las Vegas type worship. We don`t need it. It`s not true worship.
Matthew 3: 7-10
But when John the Baptist saw many of the Pharisees
and Sadducees coming for baptism, he said to them,
“You brood of vipers! Who warned you to flee from
the wrath yet to come? Bear fruit that befits repentance,
and do not presume to say to yourself, ‘We have
Abraham as our father:’ for I tell you, God is able from
these stones to raise up children to Abraham. Even
now the axe is laid to the root of the trees; every tree
therefore that does not bear good fruit is cut down and
thrown into the fire.
Several people have reported that Steve Gaines has been meeting with Sam Shaw, some of those meetings taking place within the walls of Bellevue itself, and if he's learning from Sam Shaw what not to do, maybe we could learn a few lessons from some of Sam Shaw's former sheep.
I have been reading this blog for a while now. So if you really want to hear from a GBC person then keep reading. I am a GBC member and before that that was a member at (drum-roll please) Germantown Methodist under Martha Wagley. My family stayed there for as long as we could stand it but eventually left for GBC. I decided to register and respond to the above. I am a long time listener and contributor to Love Worth Finding.
1. Germantown Baptist ("GBC") had existing bylaws to help the congregation prevent going to a proposed "elder rule" set of bylaws that would have concentrated all the decision making in the lands of a small group of men. Sam Shaw and his right hand man would have been one the small group. The proposed structure would have allowed as few as three men (Sam being one) to control all hiring, firing, worhip style decidions and all (repeat all) of the spending decisions at the church. They would have had total absolute control... over everything.
BBC does not - based on the 1929 set I have read at the www.savingbellevue site - have a very good set of bylaws that offer much protection if any to the congregation. That is very surprising to me. I can’t say why your bylaws are so short, but I think it may be due to the excellent pastoral leadership BBC has had over the years. Such excellent leadership may have lulled the church into a false sense of security and bylaws seemed unnecessary. Bylaws are kind of like police, you only need them when there is a problem, but when you need them you really do need some good ones. A good set is designed to make sure the direction of an organization reflects the will and desire of the overall membership.
2. The GBC bylaws require a business meeting be held at least every 90 days and just as important describe when and where the meeting will take place. The way I read your 1929 BBC bylaws they require only an annual meeting. FYI - GBC has a monthly business meeting now due to the recent turmoil. The move to monthly meeting was done via congregational vote. I expect we will go back to quarterly meetings in 2007. Each of the GBC committee chairmen must come before the congregation and answer questions from the floor during the business meeting about any expenditure or issue before their committee. Recently questions raised by the congrgation in business meetings have discovered certain financial agreements that were in place that were in conflict with the bylaws. I say this only to warn you that things happen that are against the rules. You need good solid people on staff and good lay people on committees that are willing to actually read & follow rules and policy. They also need to be willing to stand up and take heat at a business meeting when they know rules are being violated. As it stands now, if a committee is doing something that any single member has an issue with, that member can make an appropriate motion from the floor. If the motion is seconded it is then debated and voted on. If this was in place at BBC you could for example make a motion, debate and then vote to require prior congregational approval for all donations to any organization exceeding $1,000. Warning: the people currently in charge of the purse will not like this very much. They may think of the purse as their money. But guess what, it belongs to the congregation. Such a policy may have prevented the $25,000 check. Remember - you must follow policy for it to be effective. As another possibility, you could vote to require the head of an organization (like FUMC) that is receiving a donation from BBC sign a statement of belief to make sure your beliefs match theirs. I doubt Martha Wagley would ever sign a statement that she agrees with the Baptist confession of faith Dr. Rogers worked so hard on. I am smiling as I type that. I KNOW she would not sign it. No signature, no money, no donation problems to false teachers. End of story.
3. GBC bylaws require the use of Robert's Rules of Order Newly Revised (RONR) at all business meetings. Groups larger than BBC effectively use RONR at meetings. Do not believe it when people say BBC is "too big" for congregational meetings using RONR. RONR protects the rights of the majority and if actually enforced and properly followed will allow for productive as well as good & swift meetings. Having a good moderator that knows and enforces the rules is very important. It is also important you as a member know the rules. There are several good books that explain the rules. It is also very important to have a professional parliamentarian to help your group navigate the rules at a contentious meeting. Do not underestimate the tactical tricks your opponent will use to obtain the outcome they desire. Sad but true, I saw this first hand at GBC. The GBC staff tried to manipulate the date of the "big vote" to deny many senior citizens that were on a mission trip the chance to vote. They knoew these people were against the proposal, so they tried to disenfranchise them with parlimentary tactics. Sad thing to watch. I learned some of the RONR rules the hard way in other meetings. One of the key provisions of the “proposed GBC” bylaws was the removal of the use of RONR. The reason was to further consolidate the power in the hands of the GBC elders if they had won. The BBC bylaws do not make mention of RONR. If a business meeting is held at BBC without RONR as the guide then it may be a clear sign the currently ruling BBC Elders don’t want the voice of the BBC congregation to be heard in a fair way.
4. It was organization, a website and weekly meeting of those against the proposed GBC bylaws that won the day. Unless there is a huge crowd at this weeks communication committee meeting, the BBC leadership will assume that they still have the support of the congregation.
GBC staff tried to take GBC to an elder ruled format by changing the bylaws. They did not like those pesky business and committee meetings. From what I have read here BBC is currently already elder ruled. Your church already Sam Shaw wanted. You can call it "de-facto elder rule" as opposed to edler rule established by the bylaws, but that is sure what it sounds and looks like to an outsider. I read that BBC has no business meetings, the congregation does not vote on much of anything and a small group of men accountable to no one make all the decisions. That is de facto elder rule. These men will not allow for any outside independent investigation or oversight of their financial actions. They will choose the investigator. They will not release records of the direct billed expenditures. If you had business meetings you could make a motion to make the credit card and direct bill information available to any BBC member for inspection. They would have to comply or risk exposing themselves as beyond the control of the congrgation. If such a motion passed you could do your own investigation. Currently your elders investigate themselves and they appoint a committee of their own choosing to deflect questions that are raised. This classic Stonewalling 101 and is what we feared would happen at GBC. All decisions made by a small group of men, no appeal allowed. If you don’t like it then leave. It looks like you already have something very close to the GBC proposed bylaws (the defeated ones) in practice already at BBC. Whether your bylaws allow for it or not is kind of moot right now, that is how you appear to be functionsing. I doubt GBC elders (if they had won the vote) would have ever formed a communication committee. At least you have that going for you. I humbly suggest you organize, show up in mass and use it as a forum to voice your concerns. Get organized with a list of questions and be sure to ask follow up questions. Press for a list of donations and direct billings.
That’s my take on things. Any questions or comments post them and I will try to respond.
Also please let me extend my heartfelt thanks for all BBC has done for GBC over the past year. Volunteers from BBC came and babysat during many of our information meetings and during the vote. I know many people prayed for us. Many wonderful staff have helped us during this time when over 50% of our former staff have quit. GBC is being refined like silver in the furnace of Dr. Spradlin’s Bible preaching and it feels good. Peggy Perkins, David Smith, Dr. Whitmire and perhaps others I cannot think of are wonderful Godly people. I thank God each day that GBC is getting to borrow them for at least season. I love Ms. Perkins and David Smith. David Smith preached one night after he came and my goodness what a blessing he was! I have not met Dr. Whitmire but the times I have heard him sing my spirit soars! WOW.
If you need a temporary place to get away to worship please feel free to join us for a time at GBC. I feel like BBC is GBC’s big brother. I know many at GBC have always looked up to BBC as the mighty church and fortress of God in Memphis. You were there for us when we needed you. I for one will never forget it. Maybe GBC can be there for some of you now when you need a quiet place to come and worship for a time. You are always welcome to come and hear Dr. Spradlin preach and Dr. Whitmire sing on Sunday morning and evening or Wednesday nights if you need to. Our house is your house if you need a temporary home away from home. FYI there is a praise band (which I personally like in small doses) at the late service. Dr. Whimire is at the early service and the evenings.
Good luck. I am sad for what you are going through. If you have questions I will try to respond as best I can. If you think I am butting into your business then please let me know that to and accept my apology for doing so.
Now I just have to say that the fruit of our pastor and his yes men is rotten to the core. Until they admit what they have done, apologize, repent, and accept the consequences of their action, the fruit will hand blackened and slick for all to see.
Who`s fault is that?
It their fault.
Can the fruit be sweet again?
Only if they choose to apologize, repent, and accept the consequences of their actions.
Even a grinch can change.
GBC MEMBER is Spradlin your new pastor or just standing in for now?
Isn`t there another Bellevue minister over there with you?
"GBC member said-
You are always welcome to come and hear Dr. Spradlin preach."
I seem to remember Dr.Spradlin preaching at BBC on regular basis,but I cannot remember him preaching since all this controversy started.Can anyone shed some light on this?
If you go to the GBC website you will see that Dr Spradlin has been called as the interim pastor.
Dr Spradling has faced the ugly beast at Bellevue and knows what the members are up against. I doubt he will ever come forward because he of his position at Mid America. He thinks he`s got to protect his job.
He has said plenty about all of this but has never said it in the open.
I think he is wrong not to step up to the batter`s plate and hit a home run for the Lord. Fear is a sin and I hate to say it but there sin in the camp at Mid America.
I like Dr Spradlin, I just wish he would come and do the right thing for the Bellevue flock.
gbc_member,
Your insights are appreciated and indeed correct. Our lack of updated by-laws has led to a world of the difficulties that we are now experiencing.
We have been blessed to have strong leadership in the past that did not make them necessary. We can't say that anymore. One of the finest leaders that we had was our former assistant pastor, Bob Sorrell, who is now assisting your church in its current direction. He is such a meticulous, Godly man that the improprieties that we are experiencing now would have never escaped his attention. The assistant pastor at Bellevue for the better part of the past 30 years has primarily been responsible for financial administration and upon his retirement a great number of things began to spin out of control.
In the absence of by-laws we have in fact become an elite-led church. The elite is limited to those with great wealth and therefore they possess great power.
>>GBC MEMBER is Spradlin your new pastor or just standing in for now?<<
Mike Spradlin is the interim Pastor preaching on Sunday morning and evening and Wednesday night. He has stated he is not a candidate for the job. I would vote to hire him full time in a New York second if he would take the job.
>>>Isn`t there another Bellevue minister over there with you? <<
There may be others but I know about:
Peggy Perkins
Dr. Whitmire
David Smith
Bob Sorrell
They are all on temporary contracts as far as I know.
We are in a real bind becuase so many staff quit right after the vote. Mr. Sorrell has brought in wonderful BBC folks to help us out
I hope BBC does not have to go through anything even remotly like what we have gone through. Dr. Gaines seems so on target, how could he give money to Martha Wagley. I was shocked with a capital S when I heard that. I really didn't believe it when I heard about it. Still don't. She is 180 degrees from what I hear on Love Worth Finding.
Bob Sorrell knew about all the improprieties at Bellevue before he left. Tim, go ask him what he knows. I think you might be surprized.
Again I am shocked at the way these strong Godly men run and hide instead of standing against what they could more than verify to be the truth.
gbc_member,
You made the comment that "Dr. Gaines seems so on target". I believe that you are under the impression that the persona of the man represents the man. He does present an excellent persona, however the reality is far from what is presented.
truthhound,
Please elaborate for me and others that may be reading. Bob Sorrell was aware of improprities that occured before his retirement or after his retirement.
choice,
No offense, but I have enough going on at Bellevue to try and figure out things going on at Mid-America
choice,
So what do you believe the problem to be.
Some have asked in the past week what are some things we can do to help confront the problem we have at Bellevue with our leadership? An interesting thing has happened twice over the past several days. I have spoken with two families that have been members of Bellevue for a number of years. Both of these families were not sure what the truth has been in a lot of the issues surrounding Pastor Gaines.
Both of these families had never heard of www.savingbellevue.com
After encouraging them to explore and pray that the Holy Spirit would give them discernment on what the truth is, they went to the website and began to read for themselves the interviews between Josh Manning and Mark Sharpe and the information since then. Both families have come to the conclusion that there is good reason for the membership to be concerned. The issues that are on savingbellevue.com are still not known by a lot of members. All they have heard is the "official" line of Steve Gaines and company.
We need to spread the www.savingbelleuve.com address to as many Bellevue members as possible. Encourage them to find out for themselves.
swtt,
Excellent word. I have experienced the same with those that I am surronded by. Unfortunately, many are only concerned as to whether they will have a seat to occupy, sport events for their children and programs to keep them entertained. Unfortunate, but true.
Folks,
I feel certain that I may not be able to keep up with my in-box, given that my comments tend to be rather firm and direct, but if at any time you believe that there is something that you need to discuss with me personally, I have added a link to my e-mail address.
It is
timfrombbc@yahoo.com
Feel free to e-mail at any time.
choice is yours,
Steve Gaines is a pastor. Do you not see the destructive nature of his behaviour? Are we going to waterdown the office of the pastor as well? There are requirements of being a pastor. Steve Gaines has clearly violated many of them. I'm not saying we can't forgive him but he has not shown any signs of changing and he's certainly not asked forgiveness for anything he's done except for what he's been caught doing. Truth demands answers. Truth demands repentance. Truth demands consequences.
There is no sign among the leadership that surrounds him that they are willing to change anything. The only thing they are doing is participating in a watergate size coverup. It appears that the original wrongdoing in most of these instances is not nearly as bad as the lying that has gone on after it's been discovered.
This bothers me a great deal.
I want the church to be restored but we have to have the proper restoration take place for it to be real.
I wish things had never happened as you do but we have to deal with the situation now as it is.
How do I get one of those free tickets Brother Steve is going to give away on the trip to the Holy Land?
Is there a free drawing for this ?
Brother Steve and Sam Shaw went together to the weekly lucheon at First Evan Church many times.
Ace, why dont you ask him, I did.
I wonder what counsel Sam gave him??
Does the time off for the Holy Land trip count as vacation time?
Is SG paid for that time off??
How much vacation time does SG get each year?
Who keeps up with his vacation time and logs it in?
If you dont like me asking these questions, ask yourself, what is wrong with these type of questions?
>>>>>> I had heard one time that Sam Shaw mentioned during a meeting or a service or something that he wasn't doing anything that BBC wasn't already doing, as far as elder rule. Can you confirm this?? <<<<<<
I never heard anything like this. He did say often that he was not proposing anything that “many other Baptist churches” were not already doing. I don’t recall him ever mentioning BBC.
>>>>>> Sam Shaw is a godly man. He is not the problem. <<<<<<
Sam is only your problem to the extent he has the ear of Dr. Gaines. History suggests Sam has no qualms about ripping a church in two if that is what it takes to get what he wants. Many members got on their knees – literally – with tears flowing in Sam’s office begging – yes begging and pleading with him to back off the elder rule and heal GBC. He ignored their pleas, split the church, encouraged staff to leave and then walked away leaving the mess for others to clean up. Whether Dr. Gains is willing to split your church in an effort to get what he desires I cannot say. From personal experience I can tell you that Sam Shaw will, because he did.
Sam was very pro the purpose driven church movement and often sent pastors to Rick Warren’s Saddleback church for training. Has BBC sent any pastors there for training? It was no secret Sam was purpose driven, many Saddleback members came to GBC during Katrina to help serve the evacuees. Sam spoke of he and Rick Warren being good friends. Maybe Dr. Gaines is not a fan of the purpose driven model, but Sam Shaw most definitely is. Sam was also a big fan of the seeker movements from Willow Creek.
Regarding Sam Shaw,
After a number of years pastoring GBC, Sam Shaw decided to enlighten the congregation. He related the following:
When he was a youth minister he stole money from his church. He felt he "needed the money" He confessed to the leadership of the church where he stole the money-MANY- years later. All was forgiven.
Interesting facts in light of these circumstances.
To gbc_member:
Thank you for spending so much of your time trying to inform us of some positive and effective things to do to try to bring this situation to a conclusion. I don't know if everybody will take the time to read your post since it was pretty long; but, friends, if you didn't, you need to.
From the manner in which you speak, you are a kind, compassionate, and understanding person who has a lot of firsthand knowledge of situations like ours. You are most welcome and appreciated by our family which has been a part of the BBC membership since 1979. The Spirit approves of you.
Thank you very much....
gbc_member,
I thank you for sharing, as well.
I've often heard it said that 'a wise man learns from experience, but a wiser man learns from the experience of others.'
God bless Germantown Baptist, and may Jehovah-Rophe, our Great Healer, heal all her wounds.
I Timothy 1:5-11,18-19
5 Now the end of the commandment is charity out of a pure heart, and of a good conscience, and of faith unfeigned:
6 from which some having swerved have turned aside unto vain jangling;
7 desiring to be teachers of the law; understanding neither what they say, nor whereof they affirm.
8 But we know that the law is good, if a man use it lawfully;
9 knowing this, that the law is not made for a righteous man, but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and for sinners, for unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers,
10 for whoremongers, for them that defile themselves with mankind, for menstealers, for liars, for perjured persons, and if there be any other thing that is contrary to sound doctrine;
11 according to the glorious gospel of the blessed God, which was committed to my trust.
18 This charge I commit unto thee, son Timothy, according to the prophecies which went before on thee, that thou by them mightest war a good warfare;
19 holding faith, and a good conscience; which some having put away, concerning faith have made shipwreck:
To answer those who claim that this blog has no reason for existence. Would these issues have become before the church thru any other venue? Was an open business meeting not repeatedly requested and denied? Should the church body not be made aware of these improprieties and abnormalities?
The following charges have been brought against the current leadership and proven to be true and accurate.
Financial Improprieties - Questioned, Denied, Confirmed
The semantics concerning this issue are astounding, whether these were abuse of credit cards or not is irrelevant.
The improprieties consist of:
1. Unreimbursed airline tickets for a cheerleader camp
2. A birthday party that was charged to Bellevue and although it was reimbursed, it was still in violation of IRS rulings that prohibit the co-mingling of funds.
3. A birthday gift of hotel boarding that was charged to Bellevue and although it was reimbursed, it was still in violation of IRS rulings that prohibit the co-mingling of funds.
4. The directed gift of $25,000 to FUMC that will clearly support the work of a church that is firm opposition to our teachings.
Behavior unfitting a Minister or Deacon - Questioned, Denied, Confirmed
5. The letters from Phil Weatherwax to Josh Manning of sheer arrogance.
6. The lack of response and humility to pleas from Joe Benson.
7. The lack of response and humility to pleas from Carol Pemberton.
8. The September 25 address to a congregation in Union City, that was not only uncalled for but also untruthful. I was there on September 24 and it was obvious that there was not unanimous support, nor was there any cheering, whistling...etc as if we were in attendance at a football stadium.
9. The informational meeting of September 24, which was immediately preceded by a twisting of scriptures in an attempt to classify those that sought truth and accountability as "adversaries". When the clear intent of the scripture was addressing the adversaries of the gospel, not those seeking truth and accountability.
10. The blatant and intentional lack of respect for the membership of Bellevue on September 24 in using his family as an excuse for not preaching on Wednesday nights, knowing full well that if he had no family at all he would not have been able to do so without having to cancel multiple speaking engagements. I would like to add clarity to this particular item because I feel that it is warranted. It makes no difference to me personally if he has other speaking engagements on Wednesday nights. It does matter that we were not told the truth.
11. The blatant and intentional lack of respect for the membership of Bellevue on September 24, when holding up a credit card claimed that it had never ever, not once been used for personal reasons. Again, a political use of semantics for which the church has no use.
12. The blatant and intentional lack of respect for the membership of Bellevue on September 24 in describing the actions of climbing an "itty-bitty" fence that is indeed nearly 4 ft high. Proceeding to classify it as a "mistake of the mind and not the heart" to minimize the admission of sin.
13. The blatant and intentional lack of respect for the membership of Bellevue on September 24 in reporting that all the credit card receipts had been reviewed and found to be in proper order with the intent of deceiving the congregation into believing that this had been done by a group of deacons or committee appointed by the deacons, when in fact they were not reviewed until a later date.
14. The condescending and lack of concern in responses by Deacons Blake, Walker, Struble, Whitby, Roberts and Jones to the letter of Charles & Pamela Gremillion, which represented the concerns of many others in the church as well.
15. The lack of concern or response to Deacon David Bishops letter to the pastor. The letter was neither disrespectful nor was it confrontational, but addressed the growing concern of what he saw within the membership. Deacon Bishop later became so disenfranchised with the administration that he resigned his position.
16. The reprehensible treatment of our Minister of Music, Jim Whitmire, of which I will not elaborate on because of the embarrassment that has already been caused this church and this wonderful man.
These are but 16 offenses.
The Declaration of Independence of our Country was founded upon listed offenses of Biblical principles with the intent of the writers to remove themselves from the power and oppressions of the tyranny of the king of Britain. With this same resolve that was begun by a handful of men over 200 years ago and by the Grace and Mercy of the same Lord that led and directed them, we should also proceed to break the chains of tyranny that are now binding this church. With that same conscience that God Almighty will proceed into every battle and conquer every foe we should push forward into every stronghold unto the regaining of peace and order and the placement of Christ on his rightful throne.
18 This charge I commit unto thee, son Timothy, according to the prophecies which went before on thee, that thou by them mightest war a good warfare;
19 holding faith, and a good conscience; which some having put away, concerning faith have made shipwreck:
This is what has been committed unto us by the prophecies that went before us and by them we will war a good warfare and by them we will turn so that we may save this ship from disaster.
In the Name above every Name, Jesus Christ,
Timothy
Tim,
I have carefully read thru every post that you have made on this thread. There is not one single item that you can say that you have offered any enlightment to those that read this blog. Not one.
Not one? That just proves that no matter what I say you're going to agree with me. Anybody who has gotten this far in the conversation in reading in it will agree with me that you have no credibility.
You have continually, dismissed every allegation of wrong doing by our current administration as lies, but have not presented one shread of truth.
Wrong again. I'm sorry I've upset you, Tim...it'll be okay, really. Just because you disagree with something does not make it a lie.
As to your post that "I do not accept the fact that you might be right." Please tell me what it is that you are right about.
The facts I have and have posted are right.
If you support the current leadership in saying that the $25,000 donation was made because they are "ignorant", then you and I are in 100% agreement.
No, it's not because they are ignorant. Because like you don't understand this issue because you don't want to understand it.
You are right about issues concerning semantics, such as the debate over Steve Gaines calling Mark Sharpe "Hezbolah". The correct terminolgy should have been "acting like Hezbolah".
There is a big difference between the two. If I say you are a 2-year old, that's great...you're 2. If I say you're acting like a 2-year old, then it's demonstrating that you're acting immature. There is a big difference.
and the semantics are irrelevant.
Pfft. You were proven wrong so it's irrelevant. Nice...
You are right in saying that there is no "truth" that you have stated that can be disputed, because you have stated none.
Keep telling yourself that, Timmy......
I believe that you may do well to quit trying to be right and start trying to be righteous.
I'm not *trying* to be right... Perhaps your should read this statement and apply it to yourself, eh?
Commentary & News Briefs
July 7, 2005
.....About all the search committee chairman, Chuck Taylor, will say is that the man that has been chosen is a "dynamic, anointed preacher with great vision and tremendous leadership ability."
TREMEDOUS LEADERSHIP ABILITY????
I'm not shouting, just adding emphasis to make sure everyone sees this.
BEFORE ANYONE POSTS ANOTHER WORD, I'D LIKE TO ASK EVERYONE TO READ THE COMMENT IN THIS THREAD LEFT BY CHURCH_MUSICIAN AT 1:29 P.M. ON NOVEMBER 24TH!
IF THE SHOE FITS... ! I DO NOT WANT THIS OR ANY OTHER THREAD TO DISSOLVE INTO ANOTHER TIT-FOR-TAT BATTLE OF WORDS AS IT HAS SEVERAL OTHER NIGHTS, PARTICULARLY THE LATE NIGHT DISCUSSIONS. PLEASE STOP AND THINK BEFORE YOU HIT "PUBLISH" AND STOP ACTING LIKE A BUNCH OF CHILDREN! THIS ISN'T DIRECTED AT EVERYONE, BUT I THINK YOU KNOW WHO YOU ARE. (THE REST OF US CERTAINLY DO.) I DON'T NEED TO NAME SCREEN NAMES.
THANK YOU,
NBBCOF
Thank you, NBBCOF...it's time all the immature behavior comes to an end.
Those little white crosses on the law of Bellevue have always been a constant reminder of our strong stand against abortion and now everytime I see those little white crosses on the Bellevue lawn, I will remember that we helped placed a few more there.
I don`t won`t to lose the reason this thread was created.
This is the one of the saddest events our church history.
Repost:
NHisName said...
Bellevue Members Please do NOT move your membership just yet. If you need time to reflect on where God wants you maybe it would be good to worship somewhere else for a time BUT there is going to come a time when we will need your vote and if your membership is somewhere else you will not be able to help us.
To those of you who know some who are going elsewhere please ask them to pray diligently BEFORE moving their membership. That would just be playing into the leaderships hands and we would never get enough people to make a difference.
Only move your membership when you absolutely KNOW that God is telling you to do so.
I believe that our number is growing and that God is on our side but Satan is alive and well not only at Bellevue but here in Memphis as a whole. I perswonally talked with a man today who did not know any facts but after talking with him for over an hour he has really changed his mind and he will be talking with his wife and I know her too. When she sees the truth she will also be onboard.
We just need to talk with our friends who have their heads in the sand and let them know what is really happening.
Be careful what you say and who you say it to on this site because many non christians are reading these posts along with some of Bellevues leadership.
Also be careful not to let them know too much about what we are doing. The more information they have to more easily they will be able to fend it off.
8:44 PM, November 21, 2006
Regarding Mt. 18, the need for a scriptural forum and regular business meetings:
Some have been calling for Mt. 18 to be followed since the beginning of these problems related to Mark Sharpe, Riad Saba, etc.
Others have said either that Mt. 18 had not been followed, did not apply, or did not apply to the pastor. But, no one is above the Word of God.
The quotation below comes from a time when there was a similar problem. Luther brought charges against the Pope; however, in Luther's day the Pope controlled any attempt to bring about a free, impartial forum to resolve the differences that existed. The Pope said that he was above the temporal law, or that his interpretation of the scripture was the true interpretation, or when any attempt was made to call a council the Pope claimed to be the only one with power to call a council.
Bellevue is in a similar mess. There may be legal matters that need to be dealt with. There are those saying that Mt. 18 is not the way to handle these problems. All that is happening seems to be the current leader(s) blocking attempts at a scriptural forum.
Luther believed that it was necessary for true believers to do whatever was in their power to see to it that such a scriptural, free, forum that would seek the truth be established.
Since the biblcal process was short-circuited by leadership, similar forums have popped up on the internet.
Still, we need Mt. 18 to be exercised. And we need regular, quarterly business meetings so that the membership does not remain voiceless. In my opinion as usual.
Martin Luther refers to Matthew 18
Address to the Christian Nobility
of the German Nation
(1520)
The Romanists have, with great adroitness, drawn three walls round themselves, with which they have hitherto protected themselves, so that no one could reform them, whereby all Christendom has fallen terribly.
First, if pressed by the temporal power, they have affirmed and maintained that the temporal power has no jurisdiction over them, but, on the contrary, that the spiritual power is above the temporal.
Secondly, if it were proposed to admonish them with the Scriptures, they objected that no one may interpret the Scriptures but the Pope.
Thirdly, if they are threatened with a council, they pretend that no one may call a council but the Pope ...
Now may God help us, and give us one of those trumpets that overthrew the walls of Jericho, so that we may blow down these walls of straw and paper, and that we may set free our Christian rods for the chastisement of sin, and expose the craft and deceit of the devil, so that we may amend ourselves by punishment and again obtain God's favour.
.... The third wall falls of itself, as soon as the first two have fallen; for if the Pope acts contrary to the Scriptures, we are bound to stand by the Scriptures to punish and to constrain him, according to Christ's commandment . 'tell it unto the Church' (Matt. xviii. 15-17). . . . If then I am to accuse him before the Church, I must collect the Church together. . . .Therefore when need requires, and the Pope is a cause of offence to Christendom, in these cases whoever can best do so, as a faithful member of the whole body, must do what he can to procure a true free council.
I agree with Bin Wonderin:
We need:
1. An apology to the congregation for mocking us at Union City. After all, some of us didn't fall off the cabbage truck yesterday!
2. An admission the cheerleader tickets are not a legit moving expense and reimbursement to BBC.
3. An admission Dr. Gaines should have never given $25k to FUMC and an explanation of policy changes to prevent a repeat.
4. A policy for open books on Holy land trips and no overcharging of members. Free tickets for the host and wife are fine but not for anybody else
5. A quarterly business meeting with open mike Q&A with each committee chairman. Transcripts on the web within a week;
6. A transparent committee selection process.
7. A good updated set of bylaws similar to GBC.
8. The signing of a public conflict of interest form for any member that has any business contract to provide services to the church. These people should be recused from committees that review bids for their services.
9. No church credit cards. Pay your own way and then turn in an expense report like I do at my job.
AND I would like to add...
10. A business meeting in accord with Matthew 18 to deal with the issues that remain related to Mark Sharpe and "the Dream"... AND any other loose ends that should have been dealt with months ago!!
11. The END of heavy handed dealing with ministers, staff, and members.
12. A whistle blower policy for ministers, staff, and members. Also:
13. Full disclosure of ministerial compensation: salary + benefit breakdown, etc.
14. Much greater congregational oversight of the current budget with a transparent policy for consideration of non-budgeted expenditures exceeding a reasonable amount.
15. Forgiveness for those in leadership who have allowed this to deteriorate to this point--AND consequences for their actions.
Revival, reform, congregational oversight... for there is level ground at Calvary and "he who would be great among you shall be the servant of all."
I am adding another to the list of fifteen...
16. Building prayer buildings or any other type of building should be brought through proper channels to the congregation and be approved--not rubber stamped.
By the way, Dr. Rogers taught us quite a bit about prayer. As a matter of fact, I believe all of the current buildings ARE prayer buildings already. He and Dr. Whitmire also taught us quite a bit about worship also... but that's another topic. All in my opinion as usual.
We are staying at Bellevue until the Lord calls us away.
The church needs a Heart Transplant - beginning with our pastor and Bellevue`s inner circle of leadership but they have to be willing to sign the medical release form so the surgery can begin.
Until then.....We are all on Life Support.
blessmewiththetruth,
Your post concerning how this $25,000 will be spent is so true.
There are so many that have choose to believe that this is an argument over whether Wal-Mart or K-Mart is the better place to shop. They have completely lost sight of the gravity and weight of the sin that has occured. We have become partakers in the slaughter of innoccent unborn children because someone either didn't know any better or didn't care and could do whatever they pleased at the moment in time that it was done.
I am very passionate in my stand on this issue. I will let God be the judge of my heart and actions concerning the stand that I take on this issue, but my feet are planted firmly and I will not be moved. I can not believe that 1 cent of money that was given to Bellevue Baptist Church has went to this cause.
>>>> Thank you for spending so much of your time trying to inform us of some positive and effective things to do to try to bring this situation to a conclusion. I don't know if everybody will take the time to read your post since it was pretty long; but, friends, if you didn't, you need to. <<<<
Thank you and may God bless you and BBC. I am a poor typist, so I hope the thoughts came through clearly despite the poor spelling and typing.
Has it really sunk in that this $25,000 would fund the execution of over 800 unborn children?
Has the gravity and weight of this sin of which we have all been a part of really set in?
800 unborn children will be executed because we financially allowed it to happen and we defend it because someone didn't know or didn't care.
If there was ever a time that the Mercy of God was needed upon this church that time is now.
Does it make sense that at the very least even if you don't want to ask a question of the communication committee that you should at least be at the next meeting at 8:30 Sunday morning to see if there are any answers as to why we have done this?
Tim,
Has it really sunk in that this $25,000 would fund the execution of over 800 unborn children?
And you know the funds are going to kill children..how? Oh wait, you don't.
Has it really sunk in that this $25,000 would help feed over 2,000 people in just one month? And perhaps it would save the lives of people dying of starvation in the process?
Ace,
Is this the only justification for murder that you conjure up? Suppose that there is only one abortion funded from the entire $25,000, just one, and there are 1,900 meals served. Does that justify this action?
No, nothing can justify murder.
But let's say that by serving those meals 2 lives are physically saved. Woudn't that be nice? And even on top of that, 500 saw the love of Jesus of the people who served them the meals and accepted him as their Lord and Savior.
I know it's not right to say it's okay to kill 1 person to save two lives because murder is murder....but still, we have no idea that that money is going to be used for abortion stuff.
This is a very complex issue and if you think about it you will realize it.
To the Family of Bellevue:
If you do not stand for something, then you will fall for anything.
If this issue means nothing to you then by all means sleep in this coming Sunday. Don't deprive yourself of an hour of sleep to attend the meeting with the communication committee. They will be glad that you are not there anyway.
Not to mention if you don't show up they will assume that you really don't care and there is a pot full of that can be distributed out just like this has been done.
However, if you do care. If you do believe that the Bible really does have something to say about this. If you are really committed to living your life based on the Word of God and you have any intention at all of staying at Bellevue, then you need to devote at least one hour of your life to let your voice be heard.
Stillwaiting,
I hope you don't mind me reposting this here since 25+ essentially said the same thing I did and you responded.
No problem, I was actually about to just copy/paste my response to you here.
But, that would be wonderful if everyone could head out to the Memphis Union Mission to help them.
It would be wonderful...would anybody here object in me setting up a time for everyone from the NBBCOF to go help with serving a meal? Would anybody be interested? I'm wondering how many people would actually want to go...
I think it would have been MUCH better if BBC would have made the donation to MUM and told FUMC they were doing that in order to help them pick up where they wouldn't be able to because of the fire.
Good idea. And perhaps that would be have a better thing to do. You seem to know what BBC's intentions were and I hope you understand why they did make the donation...it was a sincere gift not to help with abortions but to help the needy. If you get that part of the message, then congratulations, I think you're the 4th or 5th person to understand the concept. :)
We would have essentially done the same thing to help them, yet, not compromised our pro-life, anti-homosexual stance. I hope I am making sense.
Yes, you're making perfect sense, thanks.
And to clarify...
I think it would have been MUCH better if BBC would have made the donation to MUM and told FUMC
I agree with that statement. But in the same time, I do not disagree with the donation to FUMC.
Does that makes sense where I stand on this issue?
Stillwaiting,
Thanks for your post and thank you once again for treating me with respect. It's sad to say there are few people who do that around here.
And vice versa, even though we may disagree with some issues, I want you to know that I respect your opinion on these forums.
I agree with your new post that it could have gone towards someplace else. But I am still standing by my statement that I do not disagree with the current donation. God knows our hearts and he will reward them. And because of that, I still support the donation. I hope I'm still making sense myself.
I will contact MUM sometime next week to see if they are looking for volunteers, as I'm sure they are, and how we could go there. If for some reason you don't hear back from me, give me a hollar on these forums are remind me, please!
And, yes, I am a guy! :) I hope you had a wonderful Thanksgiving holiday and that you have a great night!
Respectfully, as usual, the Memphis Union Mission feeds and clothes the homeless in downtown Memphis and is just a block or so away from FUMC. The money could have just as easily been given to them to pick up the slack instead of giving it to a church where the pastor supports the killing of the unborn.
There are people posting here that cannot or will not admit the truth of the statement above and will continue to ignore this truth and stick to their script. All the time accusing us of not listening and keeping an open mind.
Genesis 3:1, 3:6, 4:3, 4:7-9
The first recorded sin on earth, THE SUBTLE SERPENTS DECEPTIONS
3:1 Now the serpent was more subtle than any beast of the field which the LORD God had made. And he said unto the woman, Yea, hath God said, Ye shall not eat of every tree of the garden?
The second recorded sin on earth,
THE SUBVERSIVE SERVANT DEFILED
3:6 And when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was pleasant to the eyes, and a tree to be desired to make one wise, she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat, and gave also unto her husband with her; and he did eat.
The third recorded sin on earth, THE SINCERE SACRIFICE DENIED
4:3 And in process of time it came to pass, that Cain brought of the fruit of the ground an offering unto the LORD.
4:7 If thou doest well, shalt thou not be accepted? and if thou doest not well, sin lieth at the door: and unto thee shall be his desire, and thou shalt rule over him.
The fourth recorded sin on earth, THE SUDDEN SOLUTION DEATH
4:8 And Cain talked with Abel his brother: and it came to pass, when they were in the field, that Cain rose up against Abel his brother, and slew him.
The fifth recorded sin on earth, THE SIMPLE SARCASTIC DENIAL
4:9 And the LORD said unto Cain, Where is Abel thy brother? And he said, I know not: Am I my brother's keeper?
Perhaps no one else will see the pattern that develops with the progression of sin, but I wanted to share with any that might be interested.
Yes. You are correct, unfortunately. I understand there are people on here that still support the donation despite all the arguments against it, and despite Life Choices' stance against it. I just don't understand why.
Neither do I.
The bottom line is that there were other options available that would have both fed the hungry and at the same time not promoted homosexuality and the killing of the unborn. I cannot say why that is so hard for some to grasp.
This "better option" was not the one taken. The logical conclusion is that the finance committee was not a good steward of BBC funds in this instance.
As I see it they have two options:
1. Admit their mistake in choosing a poor option, ask forgivenes and implement meaningful policy changes to prevent a repeat. I would hope they would go even further and make all past donations available for open inspection and require congregational approval for future donations. Approval not on Sunday morning, but at a real business meeting where folks can debate first and then vote. No one wants to hold up Sunday lunch to debate bad ideas. Wrong time, wrong place.
2. Stiffen their necks, say there is nothing wrong with this donation, make no policy changes.
The option (1 or 2 above) chosen will indicate to all the state of the BBC leadership.
One last thought. If the donation was made out of ignorance then that is more understandable to me. This would be a bad mistake but a person can learn from bad mistakes. You must be willing to learn though. Recognition of their mistake of ignorance should make the committee more diligent in the future. Policy changes must be made to help ensure future gifts are researched and scrutinized more closely in an effort to ensure propriety.
If however the committee knew they were giving BBC funds to a heretical church and saw nothing improper with such a gift, then all that supported the gift should step down. We can forgive their mistake in judgment when forgiveness is sought, but the fact remains that they will have demonstrated they are not mature enough for a position of such importance and responsibility.
Everytime I see the offering plate being passed at Bellevue, I will see a dead baby lying in it.
Ignorance is not an option for men who teach thousands upon thousands to be GOOD STEWARTS of their time and money and then take the flocks donations and litterally throw it
before swins.
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