If this doesn't infuriate you, I don't know what will. Read one staff minister's account of the state of things at Bellevue today.
Here's an excerpt:
"I am one on staff who does not agree with the current direction of our beloved church home. I want everyone to know that there are a small group of us on staff, ministers and staffers alike, that are working to get a heart to heart meeting with Dr. Gaines to have our say about how we feel concerning the recent issues concerning Bellevue Baptist Church. We are encouraged that this may be happening in the near future.
"However, we have recently been informed that we are not allowed to have any meetings with Dr. Gaines alone. We have been informed that Mr. David Coombs must be involved in any meetings concerning the direction and future of Bellevue Baptist Church. Most of us do understand this from a managerial standpoint, as Mr. Coombs is Administrative Pastor. It is still somewhat of a strange consideration as we reflect on our past experiences with Dr. Rogers and his ministry."
Remember to sign the Petition to Call Bellevue Baptist Church into an Open Business Meeting and forward the link to your fellow Bellevue members.
646 comments:
«Oldest ‹Older 601 – 646 of 646May 5 Bulletin back on line. Looks like they corrected the instremental Music director.
Seems they keep close tabs on what is written on the blog..
The bulletin is back on-line. The date of the special meeting shows May 20. Is this the orignal date or was it changed to accomodate a notice?
BBC Refugee said...
"The bulletin is back on-line. The date of the special meeting shows May 20. Is this the orignal date or was it changed to accomodate a notice?"
I looks like someone at BBC would get tired of "winging it" and follow some semblance of wisdom and order. They are undone.
Does anyone know how much it costs to print (or reprint) the bulletin each week? I can guarantee it is not cheap!
Abba Father, we have sinned against you. As your children, we love you. We know have strayed from you.
In the ancient days, you gave your chosen people commandments to live by. We, the children you sacrificed your Son to redeem, have broken your commandments.
You commanded us not to kill. You warned us of an abomination; the shedding of innocent blood. We now, as members of BBC, have the innocent blood of the unborn on our hands.
You commanded us not to commit adultery. We have tried to hide the vilest adultery from your face, Father, to save our own face.
You commanded us not to steal. Hands have taken the widow’s mite from You and your bride to indulge fleshly lusts.
You commanded us not to bear false witness against our neighbor. We are strangling in a web of our lies and deceit.
You commanded us not to covet, Our covetousness and lust for the world have led us so far that we have lost our way.
Your greatest commandment was for us to love one another. Father, our love has grown cold.
Father we were a proud church. You have taken away our pride. Thank you for your correction.
Lord, remove from my heart the bitterness that fills me. Restore your love and compassion to me. Forgive the hateful words and thoughts I have had toward those who have taken away the church we loved. Your Son showed us that example when he asked, “Father forgive them, for they know not what they do.”
Lord, we are wandering sheep. We need Our Shepherd to lead us. Help us Lord to listen for His voice and to follow His leading. Help us Lord, to trust Him and rest in His care.
Father, if it is your will, we ask to complete the cleansing of your church, to relight her candlestick, and restore her. Father, let her send out her light once again to a lost world.
re: about Dr. R. being approachable
About 5 years before my husband and i even considered joining any baptist church, let alone BBC, we were having dinner out one night, and Dr. Rogers walked past us. We knew it was him becuase we had seen him on TV from time to time.
I looked up and smiled and spoke to him, calling him by name. That sweet man stopped, shook our hands, asked us our names, made small talk about what business my husband was in, etc, before moving on.
He didn't know us from Adam. He didn't know if we were members of BBC or not, and what's more, it was unimportant to him.
He is the sweetest, dearest man I have ever known and wish that I could have had a father like him. He never knew it, but he was my earthly father in so many ways. Some days I miss him so much that I think I will die from a broken heart. I cannot wait to get to heaven to see him again.
Money is no object...
after they go thru the reserve,
surely the power brokers will chip in some of their change!
Anything to stay in control and not expose all the damage they have done.
When the church is refilled with majority blind followers,SG will beat them up with his slanted scripture until they give and give.
SOTL,
I agree. I once walked past him following one Wednesday night supper. I had a cup of tea in my hand. As I walked past, he grinned and said - "still drinking, eh?" - for a split second, it caught me off guard, but when I looked into his sparkling eyes, I knew he was having fun. His laughter and joy was present at all times and he always saw the good in everybody. He never looked for evil, he always saw a child that Jesus died for and that was his life's message, "Come to Jesus". He was not about the money, the fame or the pride, it was all about Jesus and Him alone.
SOTL,
You are right. About the 2 areas with Bro R
He WAS approachable in public. At the old church,he always opened his arms up to my son when he ran up to hug him after Sunday night service.
I only wish when his son in law's sister told me to go to him about PW's perverted questions to me 5 years ago,I would have.
I had been so shamed by that time by so many,I couldn't find the courage.
The other thing.....yall covered well without me.
How in 2007,are people SO stupid that they still think a wounded and confused victim should have ANY responsibility in taking action.
The victim is re injured
as well as all of us club members when ignorance like that is displayed...
OH.. not talking about Stevie Wonder's country club....
the club we didn't ask to join.
New BBC Open Forum said...
Strike three! Yer out!
REPLY:
THANK YOU, NASS
Churchmouse,
Thank you for a sincere, humble prayer. We all need to be reminded of and pray for the things you spoke of. It is easy for many of us to feel anger and bitterness.
I had to ask the Lord for the same forgiveness a few weeks ago when I realized I was harboring some bitterness in my heart.
May God help each one of us as we take the arduous journey!
I read the end of Psalm 43 where the verse, "Send out thy light..." came from. It is very encouraging--
"O send out thy light and thy truth: let them lead me; let them bring me unto thy holy hill, and to thy tabernacles.
4Then will I go unto the altar of God, unto God my exceeding joy: yea, upon the harp will I praise thee, O God my God.
Why art thou cast down, O my soul? and why art thou disquieted within me? hope in God: for I shall yet praise him, who is the health of my countenance, and my God."
Let us all keep our eyes on Jesus and our hope in the Lord!
Standing
standing
God will take away the bitterness. I can tell you that for sure. I have to be on constant guard not to let it back in. Thank you for the scriptures of encouragement.
Sometimes I get so lost in the battle, I forget what I am fighting for.
GMommy: You know we try to watch each other's backs!
Churchmouse,
Amen! I understand!
Standing :)
gbc member said
That paragraph breaks my heart. I can only imagine what it must be like. Just know you are welcome to just come and visit for as long as you need to. We were forelorn too for a while at GBC after our split. Thank you Jesus for Bob Sorrell, Dr. Whitmire and Dr. Spradlin.
Piglet says:
Thank you, thank you, thank you!!!!
We have SO enjoyed visiting GBC. We will maintain our BBC membership for awhile until God completely closes that door. I can't imagine EVER going back, though.
I do feel the love when we attend. And I promise to try and get to know as many of you great GBC folks as I can - a little shy without my computer.....
ustydogBoy, I missed a lot last night, so I'll sum up my feelings:
Lin, Jeff Van Vonderan is on a show called "Intervention" on A & E channel. Is this the same one that wrote the book you're talking about?
About Jaime being listed as Minister of Music and Instrumental Music: One would think this never gets touched on a week to week basis. What I mean is the Bellevue Today is probably on a template where certain things don't change (or don't change often), so unless someone made a HUGE cut and paste mistake, there may be something there to worry about. We've heard about six ministers leaving, so I wouldn't be surprised if Carter were one of them.
Lynn, Be careful driving your car to the beach - seriously, who's responsible if you get in a wreck while on a BBC trip? Sounds like a waste of money to me to spend $200 if you have to drive yourself. Who's paying for the gas - is that part of the $200?
Karen
I'm kind of creeped out by the bulletin getting changed so fast - BIG BROTHER and all that.
karen
Churchmouse,
Your prayer is just what we need as a body! Spoken as if you have been reading the WORD. May the Lord straighten your path today!
Hosea 14:1 O Israel, return unto the LORD thy God; for thou hast fallen by thine iniquity.
14:2 Take with you words, and turn to the LORD: say unto him, Take away all iniquity, and receive [us] graciously: so will we render the calves of our lips.
14:3 Asshur shall not save us; we will not ride upon horses: neither will we say any more to the work of our hands, [Ye are] our gods: for in thee the fatherless findeth mercy.
14:4 I will heal their backsliding, I will love them freely: for mine anger is turned away from him.
14:5 I will be as the dew unto Israel: he shall grow as the lily, and cast forth his roots as Lebanon.
14:6 His branches shall spread, and his beauty shall be as the olive tree, and his smell as Lebanon.
14:7 They that dwell under his shadow shall return; they shall revive [as] the corn, and grow as the vine: the scent thereof [shall be] as the wine of Lebanon.
14:8 Ephraim [shall say], What have I to do any more with idols? I have heard [him], and observed him: I [am] like a green fir tree. From me is thy fruit found.
14:9 Who [is] wise, and he shall understand these [things]? prudent, and he shall know them? for the ways of the LORD [are] right, and the just shall walk in them: but the transgressors shall fall therein.
Lin, Jeff Van Vonderan is on a show called "Intervention" on A & E channel.
I knew that name was familiar! I wonder if it's the same guy?
Churchmouse said...
Ezekiel,
I was thinking of the nation of
Israel, how God would bless them and they would fall into sin. God would take away his hedge of protection from them. The enemy would come in and scatter them. It was a viscious cycle.
God will not restore us until we repent. We are a stiff necked people.
10:32 AM, May 04, 2007
concernedsbcer.....returned your email!!! Thanks!
Watching/Mr. Page: You are an idiot. You aren't a member of Bellevue nor were ever one from what I understand. Your lastest statement shows you know absolutley nothing about Dr. Rogers, PW or this dear victim. And especailly of the crime of child sexual abuse, you know nothing at all.
Dr. Rogers certainly was approachable. Quite the opposite of what you "proclaim". Did you ever meet this man? Did you ever request a meeting with him?
I am not sure why you have this hangup but I am sick of you using this victim and his horrible abuse to try and make some stupid point that is meaningless.
Because of my involvement with Ken Whitten in the singles department years ago at the old location, I got to konw Dr. Roger well. No we were not close personal friends. But I have counseled with him many times when I sought his advice and this was when he was president of the SBC. Does anyone remember him asking the congregation if it was ok for him to have his name put forward? I do.
One time stands out real well in my mind. When my dear Ellizabeth and I approached Bellevue about having Biblical grounds to marry, who did we meet with? Dr. Rogers. I had been married previously and we wanted to be sure we it was ok according to God' Word. After the investigation was completed, who called me up and asked to meet with me alone? Dr. Rogers. He did and he counseld me on a being a Godly husband and when he finished he surprised me. Elizabeth was there and he had already told her it was ok. He had a great sense of humor. Now I don't call that unapproachable at all.
Mr. Page I feel for you. You are in need of help. Please take what I say to you to heart. But whatever you do from this day forward do it somewhere else.
David Brown
Allofgrace said...
The whole idea of erecting"Shrines in a church borders on idolarty any way you slice it"(Refering to the display case in the foyer)I could not agree more..This has bothered me for some time now.although I have not posted in a while A few thoughts....1.A special Case display of David Coombs Ordanation ceremony complete with speical milestones in his corporate life...2A speical display of Harry Smiths Saddle store and his new patented saddle called the "I"ll get back with you"
3.Book signings By Brian Millers new Book "How to End Business Meetings Quickly and Effectively"....Also Book signings buy John Caldwell "How to Jump Fences when Over Sixty".....Also by our security department "How to escort and handcuff Barefoot Teenagers Effectively."Steve"s new book "How to stay busy on Wednesday Night"
According to them everythings allright now...Look the other way..
Lets all come together....Psalm 94:11-14."The Lord knows the thoughts of man,that they are futile.Blessed is the man You instruct O lord and teach out of Your law.That You may give him rest from the days of adverisity
until the pit is dug for thw wicked.For the Lord will not cast off his people ,Nor will he forsake His inheritance." Self Serving Display Cases Self serving
Money Hungry power Hungry Elders are not are inheritance.Righteous Men who came before Us these were and still are inheritance.Obeying Scripture is our inheritance..Lord Jesus protect our church from these proud and arrogant men.They shall be Exposed!
"These six things doth the LORD hate; yea; seven are an abomination unto him: A proud look, a lying tongue, and hands that shed innocent blood, An heart that deviseth wicked imaginations, feet that are swift in running to mischief, a false witness that speaketh lies, and he that soweth discord among brethren."
Proverbs 6:16-19
QUESTION: How many of these sins will be counted against us if we remain at BBC? Is leaving BBC and repenting the answer? Can a member remain at BBC and partake of the good and not be accountable for the sin?
This is an honest question? What does our Good Shepherd require of us at this time?
YOUR THOUGHTS?
churchmouse said...
"QUESTION: How many of these sins will be counted against us if we remain at BBC? Is leaving BBC and repenting the answer? Can a member remain at BBC and partake of the good and not be accountable for the sin?"
I have not taken the Lord's Supper since the 9/24 meeting last year. I have ought against Steve Gaines and the administration because of their indiscretions, illegal activity and blatant sin. Until it is resolved, or the Lord allows me to move my membership, I cannot partake in good conscience knowing that I will be held accountable for the sin in the camp if I know about it and do nothing. There are sins of commission as well as sins of omission. If I do nothing, my sin is omission, such as many others who have sat idly by and waited on someone else to to step up and "fix" it, or accepted it because they were afraid of loosing position or power. There are many deacons who are guilty, yet they continue to serve communion with the blood of aborted babies on their hands (25K to FUMC). How does this happen? Do they take communion with a callous heart, a hardened conscience or blinded eyes? God help me, but I cannot participate until the sin is washed from the altar by the blood of Jesus thru repentance and removal of Steve Gaines and his disciples and the Lord restores His church.
I have been hearing from several sources that the 6th grade camp has been cancelled due to lack of sign ups...It seems that only 21 folks signed up.
Does anyone else know anything about this? Wonder how the other summer camps are doing?
No doubt, the administration ( not leadership) will spin this as:
" we had so many sign up that we cannot accomodate them all, so we had to cancel the camp"
Ok, I realize that they are reading
this and that I just gave them the idea for their spin, but...oh well.
NBBCOF,
Thank you for no longer allowing the tirades of WHS.
Other Blogsters,
The meeting to nominate messengers to the SBC was exactly as expected. So what if they can't call a special meeting because it is not in the bylaws, since when has there been any authority that is placed above this leadership. They can and will do as they please. The motion to adjourn the past meeting was improper considering that it did not provide the date of the next scheduled meeting.
This group makes and breaks the rules according to their own will.
If Matthew 18 does not apply to Steve Gaines, then it doesn't apply to any of the staff. Neither do any Biblical principles. You can't pick and choose which parts of the Bible you want. Either it is all or nothing.
Ultimately all morality is Biblically based. A church that does not base their moral conduct on Biblical principles is beyond amoral it is immoral and that my friends is the state the church is in at present, which can clearly be seen by the events as they unfold.
Mom4, Neither would I dare take the Lord's Supper at this time. About the judgement question; Rev. 2 and 3 tell us that the churches will be judged. I think we need to be very careful.
churchmouse,
I am in total agreement; neither I nor my husband, children or their families have taken the Lord's Supper since 9/24.
Each has made their own decision; I have not influenced them, even my teen.
If what SOTL says about the 6th grade camp being canceled for non-participation, the church is making a statement to the administration that it is indeed more than a few troublemakers who do not like the music. All these people who have been blindly supporting an unholy régime may have to dig into their pockets a little deeper to keep the lights on before long.
Fallen: now I ruined my monitor spewing Pepsi.......
Those books sound like great additions to my library...........
socwork said...
Lin, Jeff Van Vonderan is on a show called "Intervention" on A & E channel.
I knew that name was familiar! I wonder if it's the same guy?
10:34 AM, May 04, 2007
Looked it up on amazon.com and it's the same guy. I may pick that one up.
karen
As a former member of Bellevue, I have sadly watched from afar the controversies that surround this beautiful church. As a former member, I have not felt compelled to enter into the fray. Yet, I cannot stay silent when it comes to criticism of Dr. Rogers. During my almost 20 years as a member, I asked for personal visits with Dr. Rogers on at least 10 occasions. Each request was granted, and my meetings with this sweet, godly man were unhurried and inspirational. With one phone call, he arranged for my oldest daughter to have a scholarship at Liberty University. When my youngest daughter went on a retreat in which letters of support were requested, he wrote a beautiful letter which we still have. He took the time to meet and pray with a friend of mine from Estonia. He met and prayed with my younger brother who was entering the ministry, and my brother I was one of 20,000 members; yet he found time for me and my family. Dr. Rogers was as comfortable in the presence of the President of the U.S. as he was with someone as insignificant as me. He was a godly man who dealt with all issues with integrity and honesty. He is undeserving of the criticism of some who are participating in this forum.
Sybil Canon
Sybil Canon,
Thank you for taking me back to the days when Bellevue had a pastor that was a pastor.
The loving memories of Dr. Rogers will forever have a tremendous empact on our family.
Sybil,
Thank you for your willingness to speak out. Dr Rogers was a man who was deeply loved. If we could all express our heartfelt memories such as you have, maybe those who are attacking him,his memory and his legacy would refrain.
I am sure the Rogers family appreciates your kind words and your grateful heart as much as I do.
ok, guys,
I called the church and asked if the 6th grade camp had been cancelled and I was told that it had NOT been cancelled, and that there are 62 kids signed up to go.
Squelch that rumor. I apologize for repeating something that I did not check out ahead of time.
"The whole idea of erecting "shrines" in a church to mere men borders on idolatry any way you slice it. God commanded us not to make any shrines to Himself (images, idols)...why do we idolize mere men? "
yes! If we boast, let it be of the Lord.
"Lin, Jeff Van Vonderan is on a show called "Intervention" on A & E channel. Is this the same one that wrote the book you're talking about?"
I have no idea...I know I am strange in this... but I have not watched TV in about 5 years. But your question concerns me. That is why I am so reluctant to recommend any books. But others I know and trust who have gone through spiritual abuse in church have raved about it.
Again, I urge everyone who reads it to make sure they have their Bible next to them to check everything in context. I did that and even found some teaching in scripture I had missed that was very relevant.
You would NOT believe how many 'tactics' are spelled out in the book that are being used at BBC. Amazing.
Nass, thanks for dealing with WS. My guess is that the only one reluctant to 'approach' Dr. Rogers would be the one in such sin and any others who knew about it. They knew what he would do. That is why he was not approached! As a matter of fact, great care was taken to cover that sin.
Considering the circumstances,
why anyone would expect the victim to approach him is beyond me. That shows a lack of understanding of such a crime/sin as this one.
But, my big problem with his posts were the fact that Dr. Rogers has passed and cannot defend himself. That, in my book, is unfair at this juncture.
Just thought I'd drop in to tell all you folks I am in heaven. Just finished up my second day at the True Church Conference. Paul Washer is on the agenda tomorrow. And Jeff Noblit.
Ima
Ima, I'm jealous...in a Christian way, of course. :o)
I have been reading the BBC blogs since the fall of last year and what has happened at Bellevue breaks my heart. This is not my fight and I never intended to weigh in, but I have been under conviction this week to share some thoughts with my brothers and sisters at Bellevue. I have so much to say, but will try to be concise.
In the early 1990's, The First Baptist Church of Merritt Island, FL went through a situation very similar to Bellevue's today. The pastor at the time had become arrogant, fiscally irresponsible, was drawing an inflated salary and was surrounded by his "yes men." People went to him individually to express their concern and were told that if they didn't like it they could leave. Many did. However, a group of men (several of whom had talked to the pastor and received the same response) refused to be run off and began meeting once per week to pray for the pastor and the church. To make a long story short, the group sent a delegation to meet with the pastor. He had his "yes men" in attendance and they adamantly defended both him and his actions. The members of the group were attacked and accused of everything you can imagine from having personal vendettas to trying to split the church. I left the church and attended elsewhere for 4 years so my young children would not hear what was being said about their father. I only returned to FBCMI about a year after the subject pastor left.
As my brothers and sisters in Christ, I encourage you to take the high road. Continue to insist on accountability and integrity but refrain from personal attacks against those who attack you. It took the pastor leaving, another coming and going, and a total of 10 years of elapsed time before the church began to heal. Most of those "yes men" have seen the collapse of their families, their health, their businesses or combinations of the three (several due to their own moral indiscretions). Those who took a stand for integrity and biblical principles are back in leadership positions and the church is growing again, both spiritually and numerically.
However, there is one issue I would like to address now. I have another for later.
Dr. Rogers baptized me in 1968. My father was a deacon and both of my parents were Sunday School teachers and department heads. Mrs. Rogers taught my new members class. I've kept up with Dr. Rogers ministry, his stand on inerrancy, sin, the family, and I've watched BBC from a distance with a sense of awe at what the Lord can do with a servant leader and a praying church.
Regarding Dr. Rogers' approachability; I was the youth and music director at a small country church in Mississippi and took my youth group on a retreat to Sardis Lake in 1986. On Wednesday morning, I took them to Memphis to see Graceland. However, on Wednesday night we went to BBC for prayer meeting at the old campus. They were so impressed that on a Wednesday night we had to sit in the upper balcony. After the service, I took my 15-20 kids downstairs to the podium and waited to get Dr. Rogers attention. When we made eye contact I said "you might not remember me, but I am (my name) from Merritt Island." Neither my parents nor I had seen Dr. Rogers in probably 10 years and he had been gone from M.I. for 14 years. He laughed with a roar and immediately asked how my family was doing. He inquired about my parents by name and called Mrs. Rogers over by saying "Joyce, we have friends here from Merritt Island." Then he spend about 10-15 minutes talking with my youth group.
I saw him again at the SBC in St. Louis a few years back and he did basically the same thing. I was at the same time blessed, humbled and impressed with the man's intellect, memory and approachability.
Regarding his Integrity: Dr. Rogers is one of two individuals in the ministry who immediately come to mind when I think of the term integrity.
In the early 1970's it was unheard of for a Southern Baptist Pastor to take a stand for church integration. We all know that the Southern Baptist denomination came about over the southern aristocracy insistance on keeping the institute of slavery alive. It is a still a lightning-rod issue in many Southern Baprtist churches today. I have to believe that some of the participants on this blog where in attendance when a black gentleman was presented for membership at Bellevue and his membership was challenged by a member who said something to the effect of "...they have their own church." Dr. Rogers responded with the comment that if that's the way they wanted it then Bellevue had called the wrong pastor.
Does the concept of integrity get any more crystal clear? I have to believe that the people who are questioning the integrity of Dr. Adrian P. Rogers are doing so out of ignorance. They could not possibly know him the way amny of us did.
I have spent hours, many times into the early morning, reading (sometimes through tears) the tributes to Dr. Rogers on the Internet. There is a common theme in many of those tributes. It is that of a spiritual giant who remained approachable and amintained the highest-level of integrity.
No one but Dr. Rogers, Paul Williams and the Lord know for sure if Dr. Rogers knew anything about the sexual abuse situation. However, I find it hard believe that anybody would question Dr. Rogers integrity or how he would have dealt with an issue like the Williams situation. I believe that Williams would have been gone by the close of business the day Dr. Rogers learned of the indiscretion. I also believe that Dr. Rogers would have continued to love Williams and possibly counseled him, but not allowed his return to a ministerial position.
I apologize that this was so long, but I finally had to put it into words. May God bless and keep you all. You and Bellevue remain in my prayers.
Hello, all. I have recently published a post on my blog, TH in SoC, regarding Warrenism. The blog discusses abuses in the evangelical church, and the general condition of American evangelicalism.
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