Thursday, April 12, 2007

ABC News "20/20" Report: Preacher Predators

A producer for the ABC News program "20/20" sent the following press release regarding a story that will air on tomorrow night's broadcast. While Bellevue's story was not included in this episode, the producer stated that they may use it if they do a follow-up report.

PREACHER PREDATORS: INVESTIGATING CHILD SEX ABUSE IN THE PROTESTANT CHURCH

JIM AVILA REPORTS ON ABC NEWS' "20/20," FRIDAY, APRIL 13

Child sex abuse by Catholic priests has been headline news in recent years, but is the same abuse happening within Protestant churches? In a six-month investigation, ABC News' "20/20" found preacher predators in every corner of the country, including several affiliated with the Southern Baptist Convention (SBC) -- the largest Protestant denomination. Jim Avila's exclusive report airs on "20/20," FRIDAY, APRIL 13 (9:00-10:00 p.m., CT), on the ABC Television Network (Channel 24 in Memphis).

Avila's reporting finds that the SBC, an organization of 43,000 independent churches and 16.3 million members – has an overall structure that makes it difficult to police preacher predators. One example includes a profile of a SBC pastor who abused kids in Kentucky and then moved on to do the same to eight boys in Missouri before he was finally sent to prison. In an interview with Avila, the SBC president concedes that there is a problem with tracking predators.

"20/20" lists numerous SBC preachers who have been convicted or charged with child sex abuse, including pastors still identified on the SBC's own website of ordained ministers.

Avila also interviews a preacher who admits, in his jobs as Southern Baptist preacher and teacher in East Texas, that he molested more than 40 boys. For the first time, Ken Ward speaks publicly about how he manipulated families and churches as he targeted and molested children in his care, and how the church is actually a magnet for predators. "I wanted them to love me and that was part of the strategy," Ward tells Avila. He also gives insight to parents about how to spot a predator.

"20/20" is anchored by Elizabeth Vargas and John Stossel. David Sloan is the executive producer.


Here is a video preview.

505 comments:

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Tim said...

Business Meeting Petition

Please don't forget about this. I don't believe that it will do any good any more than any one else does. The fact of the matter is that the leadership doesn't care what the membership thinks. However, it gave me the opporuntity to have a voice when the church refused to do so. It will at least give you the opportunity to do the same.

Business Meeting Petition

Piglet said...

Also, for those who have signed, don't forget to have everyone in your family sign, if they will.

Don't let one signature represent your whole family. Kids who are members may also sign!!

Psalm 43:3 said...

Frank Page (president of the SBC) has some very interesting things to say in his interview. His opinion is very similar to one we have heard recently in our local paper. Definitely worth watching.

socwork said...

Psalm 43:3, Do we have to wait for 20/20 to air tomorrow night to hear this opinion? Or is there a place where we can get a sneak preview?

Psalm 43:3 said...

Socwork- Page is interviewed in the 20/20 expose. Similar opinions to his can be found in the Commercial Appeal last December.

WatchingHISstory said...

I'm not being flippant when I ask, does having a lot of money excuse you from Christ-like behavior?
Is there one set of rules for thoes who have a little money and another for thoes who have a lot of money? Can people's perceptions be so clouded that they can't see the obvious truth?

socwork said...

Ah, I see. Thank you Ps43:3. :)

sheeplessatbbc said...

Everyone, please sign the petition, you have a right to be heard. Don't allow yourself to be lulled into a state of apathy.

This is imported from Josh Mannings blog and seems very pertinent to the importance of signing the petition:

Bellevue is declining just as civilizations do when they refuse to confront their internal rot and external threats. Bellevue, like the US, has both. Internally, BBC has corruption, sin, and hardheartedness. Many at the core of the church have sacrificed Right for expedience, choosing to run the church as a business without accountability to the shareholders (members) or transparency to the world. In the same way, Bellevue has external threats from seeker-friendliness, trendy spiritual fluff, and simple secularism. There are also many enjoying the unseemly mess that the BBC administration is exacerbating.

Many would argue that those dissenting are the real problem. This is only true if the dissenters are wrong. But if they are right, then there are huge problems at BBC which should be solved. Those concerned have tried to address the problems within the framework of the church via Matthew 18 and have been told to leave. This then raises the question: Is it better to leave a corrupt church to prey on innocents, or is it preferable to expose such corruption (vis a vis Matthew 18--which as an aside says nothing about excluding the World from knowledge of the conflict) so that pressure from the Christian world and the secular world may force a cleanup? Obviously the latter is the answer. For there are no downsides to showing the world our willingness to 1) admit sin, and 2) repent of it, and 3) restore fellowship.

Jefferson follows up saying, "But when a long train of abuses and usurpations, pursuing invariably the same Object evinces a design to reduce them under absolute Despotism, it is their right, it is their duty, to throw off such Government, and to provide new Guards for their future security."

We have been abused by a pastorate intent on obfuscating (to know laughable levels), using church largess for personal gains (to be paid back purportedly, but at what cost to Cesar both locally and nationally), intimidating those who would question its actions (the dream, Mark Sharpe, other staff members who shall remain nameless here), cloaking itself in secrecy (vis a vis confidentiality agreements for multiple ministers, no business meetings or access to church documents and policy), harboring a child molester (after the molester purportedly offered to resign no less!), lawbreaking (both by trespassing (and from all signs falsely calling such trespassing an errand of reconciliation) and refusing to release documents as required under TCA 48-66-102).

One must ask what is so important that a CHURCH administration would break the law to conceal its actions.

Folks, Jefferson was right. We will suffer until we feel we can suffer no more. It shouldn't be that way. We can be free. We can be restored. We do not have to tolerate this dictatorial administration which removes deacons at will, attempts to coerce non-disclosure signature, and simply lies.

There have been "a long train of abuses and usurpations, pursing invariably the same Object . . . a design to reduce [us] under absolute despotism."

Now the question is, will you do your duty and change our church, providing "new Guards for [our] future?" Will you? Will you force to an end this administration that does not comply with Matthew 18, refuses to open the administration to transparency, and refuses to obey the law? Will you force the administration to be accountable to the people themselves? Will you force the church to operate transparently, like Focus on the Family, such that anyone from anywhere can examine our books and non-confidential records to keep us honest?

If you will not, then I must ask, why?

(The above by Josh Manning who has sacrificed much and taken a stand for BBC and for his convictions.)

ARE YOU WILLING TO TAKE A STAND?

PLEASE SIGN THE PETITION NOW

sheeplessatbbc said...

Josh Mannings mike was shut down (whacked, as our pastor reportedly likes to say) so his voice could no longer be heard at the "monkey-business meeting" 3/25/07.

As they (leadership & our pastor) saw CW walking toward the mike they "whacked" it, shut it down, turned it off.

What are they so afraid of? Why do they fear what CW might have to say to his church family? A family he has known and loved from birth for 28-30 years.

Sign the petition for a real business meeting.

sheeplessatbbc said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Piglet said...

Sheepless

Is it any wonder that some in leadership hate Josh so much? :) He actually holds up far better than they do under pressure and it's because he has truth on his side.

Weatherwax's letter did not speak to Josh's issues but attempted to destroy his crdibility and distract from the issues.

These tactics are still being used.

There are big issues, not mistakes, but deep character flaws, unrepented sins, and a desperation to get rid of anyone who might expose the truth to BBC.

4545 said...
This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
4545 said...
This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
WatchingHISstory said...

45

no

sickofthelies said...

NASS

Roll out the IV...

Someone needs a fix.

New BBC Open Forum said...

SOTL wrote:

"Roll out the IV...

Someone needs a fix."


NASS rolled out the can instead.

oc said...

4545,

I have a question for you. (yeah, it's me again).You have done the 'run Forest run' thing from me for over 2 weeks. Stop demanding that others prove anything until you prove what you claim. Are you going to man up?
Bet you are real skinny by now, you have run so far. Run, Forest, run.

sheeplessatbbc said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
sickofthelies said...

Follow the money. Always follow the money.

sheeplessatbbc said...

Piglet,

Weatherwax's email was scary to say the least. That was more like an unbalanced tantrum. How do men like this become ministers, better yet why?

If we had more men like Josh Manning in leadership we would not be in the "mess" we are in today at Bellevue.

sheeplessatbbc said...

SOTL,

They won't even tell us where it is, how can we FOLLOW IT??

sheeplessatbbc said...

Speaking of money..did anyone find out today if Chip Freeman is or is not on paid leave?

And what about Mark Dougharty is he or isn't he?

concernedSBCer said...

sheepless: That is the question.

Piglet said...

New year's Resolution list posted by swtt in January:

New Year's Resolutions for our Beloved Bellevue Baptist Church.

* Take the Word that we preach weakly and practice what the Word says.

* Start holding ministers on staff to the Biblical standards called for.

* Stop calling a homosexual/pedophilia act a "moral failure". Call it an abonination to the Lord.

* Start applying Matthew 18 inside the church, including Steve Gaines and the rest of the ministers.

* Stop allowing the pastor and other ministers to be above reproach.

* Seek God to call a Servant Leader to replace Steve Gaines.

* Ask the Lord to forgive us as a church for winking at the sin that has occured from our leadership this past year.

* Forgive us for giving standing ovations to a pastor that has shamed our Lord, Bellevue, and his family.

* Stop allowing power to be in the hands of a few men who act unbiblical in church business.

* Ask God to give our leadership discernment on right vs. wrong.

* Demand accountability from the pastor.

* Demand accountability from our churh lay leaders.

* All of us to test everything that is done and said with the Word.

* Create in environment where the congregation can ask legitimate questions.

* Have quarterly business meetings where the membership can be a part of what's going on and have the freedom to be informed.

* Have a pastor that doesn't look at the tithing records of deacons, teachers, choir members, and staff.

* Rely on God to touch the hearts of men/women to give out of love and not fear.

* Collect all church credit cards and let anyone who has to spend money submit an expense report to the church.

* Put the proper controls in place for spending money.

* Review the amount spent by Bellevue staff each month on eating out at local restaurants.

* Start using our eating facilities (like they were originally intended to be used) for lunch.

* Stop allowing the pastor to have personal expenses direct billed to the church.

* No longer allow the pastor to have any more birthday parties for his wife direct billed to the church.

* No longer allow the church to pay for cheerleading travel/expenses any longer.

* Never give any future donations out unless they have been prayed over and thought out.

* No longer be involved thru the pastors office of overcharging parishioners for tour trips led by the pastor.

* Create a separation of fiduciary comingling of staff time and Bellevue resources for personal gain of the pastor and his wife.

* Start publishing the compensation packages of the staff like 99% of the Southern Baptist churces across America do already.

* Revise our compensation package for any minister that is receiving unreasonable pay.

* Revise our bylaws so there is written guidance for our church to operate under.

* Start operating under bylaws like the Southern Baptist Convention does.

* Put restrictions on the same set of men/families filling the finance committee and other committees with a great deal of control.

* Once again place an emphasis on Wednesday Night Prayer Meeting.

* Stop allowing influential leaders to do business with the church unless there is full disclosure.

* Publish all business dealings with anyone who is a member of belleuve.

* Allow the congregation greater knowledge of the budget and where all of the money goes that is spent at Bellevue.

* Stop hording $30,000,000 in the bank and start spending on ministries.

* Let the membership have total knowledge of how we are spending this $30,000,000.

* Stop allowing "pet" projects costing $100,000's to be spent without the knowledge of the church.

* Stop hiring "business" men to be ministers without formal training in seminary.

* Stop having leadership positions be determined by "social status".

* Allow Godly members of Bellevue who have been passed over in the past to fill leadership positions.

* Stop requiring staff members to sign a legal document prohibiting them from talking about the inner workings of Bellevue.

* Stop intimidating staff member and former staff members.

* Stop intimidating members.

* The pastor should not be able to take along men to intimidate any member.

* Trespassing into members neigborhoods or onto property will not be tolerated by Bellevue.

* Stop using the pulpit to preach self serving messages that misuse the scriptures.

* Never allow a pastor to be called again without the congregation knowing who he is before the day of decision.

* Full blown background checks will be done on any future ministers that are hired.

* Future pastors must want to preach on any Wednesday night possible.

* Hire pastors that don't call their parishioners "Hezbollah".

* Reject Warrenism or anypart of Warrenism that has crept into our church.

* Pray that all members who profess to be Believers humble themselves before our Lord.

* Each of us search our hearts to do what God wants us to do.

* Each of us search our hearts to go where God wants us to go.

* Each of us search our hearts to be the person God wants us to be.

* Pray that we can once again fellowhip with each other in love.

* Pray that Bellevue once again would be able worship in Spirit and in Truth.

* Pray that we all have the spirit of forgiveness, love, patience, and long suffering.
***********************************

HOW HAVE WE DONE ON THIS LIST?

Piglet said...

An encouraging post to healing balm and the rest of us - from Josh Manning before Christmas:

Sensing some discouragement out there folks.

Healingbalm,

I don't know how long you've been saved or if you've ever gone through this before. I've been through it before, but was very young and so I only remember small parts of the controversy. We stood for what was right, got kicked in the teeth by friends, ministers, and deacons. We were preached at directly. We were ostracized. But we stood until we could stand no longer--until it was clear that things would not change. We've not hit that point at BBC yet. Hold strong! God told Saul, "Had you waited just a little longer, I'd have established your kingdom forever." We must hold on! It took years for the situation I referred to to resolve. Let us pray this resolves much sooner.

Corny as this is (and I'll probably catch flak for it from people w/o English backgrounds), there's a very appropriate quote from the Two Towers:

Sam: It's all wrong. By rights we shouldn't even be here. But we are. It's like in the great stories, Mr. Frodo. The ones that really mattered. Full of darkness and danger they were. And sometimes you didn’t want to know the end… because how could the end be happy? How could the world go back to the way it was when so much bad had happened? But in the end, it’s only a passing thing… this shadow. Even darkness must pass. A new day will come. And when the sun shines, it will shine out the clearer. Those were the stories that stayed with you… that meant something. Even if you were too small to understand why. But I think, Mr. Frodo, I do understand. I know now. Folk in those stories had lots of chances of turning back, only they didn’t. They kept going… because they were holding on to something.
Frodo: What are we holding on to, Sam?
Sam: That there’s some good in this world [or church], Mr. Frodo. And it’s worth fighting for.

Healingbalm, we must hold on. God is moving. He's cleaning house. He's showing us who's who. Two years ago we'd have known none of this. It's only just now leaking to the broader public. Take courage if you can. Be strong. We fight today, and we fight tomorrow. This will pass, and the sun will shine out the brighter. Count it all gain Brethren to suffer for Christ!

To everyone else:

We mustn't be discouraged. Yesterday was another day of the runaround. We should all be expecting this. They've denied and denied. No reason to think things will be different because of a couple of meetings.

Andrew is right: coordination is key. The questions need to be hammered out ahead of time. Seating needs to be fixed ahead of time (no more of the committee sitting halfway into the room), and follow-ups need to be ready.

Finally, while this has been a long post, I’m going to add just a bit more. It's time for a quote that remind us of the will to fight. One man could do this better than any I can think of:

"Never give in — never, never, never, never, in nothing great or small, large or petty, never give in except to convictions of honour and good sense. Never yield to force; never yield to the apparently overwhelming might of the enemy." --Winston Churchill

PS I here in now way imply that we are dealing with Nazis.

10:09 AM, November 27, 2006
**********************************

Thanks, Josh. Thought we needed to hear this again....

Piglet said...

Truth or Lie posted thse thoughts:

We have a pastor that is making more money than 99% of the American population.

(Just because people don't want to believe it doesn't make it not true. Why else do you think the elders are hiding the compensation package? These elders know there would be a rebellion if they published it. It looks like a rebellion has started already.)

This does not include the additional money he makes traveling to other churches FOR HIRE.

This does not include the additional money he makes leading people on tours.

This does not include income he and his wife are making by selling books and video tapes.

While gone speaking or leading tours, we are paying another traveling speaker to fill the pulpit while he is out making additional money.

What happened to Wednesday nights? We know that answer already.

How many large church pastors would travel all over the country preaching if the host churches did not pay them money? There's nothing wrong with a pastor speaking at another church in a controlled manor but pastor's who make a regular tour each year are milking their congregation.

Churches all over the country are now taking a look at their pastors who travel on the circuit wondering how much they are making over and above their salaries.

It's not unusual for Bellevue to pay a traveling pastor upwards of $5,000 per speaking engagement.

Take a look at the number of pastors who speak in each other's churches for pay on a regular basis. You scratch my back and I'll scratch yours.

This has got to stop.

We need transparency inside the church like we've never seen before.

9:09 PM, February 26, 2007

gmommylv said...

Hey everyone,
I have been concerned about the different labels used for the BBC staff predator.
I got some terms defined for us by a professional.
The homosexual word linked with the child molester has always bothered me.
Here is what I learned from the PHD....who treats a very large number of sexual victims.

We know the predator preyed on the vulnerable...women and at least one child.....preteen.

This has nothing to do with a sexual preference.
This is about control.

He has shown himself to be a sexual predator/perpetrator.....a sexual deviant.
Does not mean children are the only ones at risk.
His "high" is from making his victims powerless and under his control...he enjoys stomping over all the boundaries and confusing and overwhelming his victims to the point of submission,degadation,damaging the mind and the heart.
.
A person in a position of trust does MORE damage than a perp not in a trust position or relationship.
A pedophile would prey on young children.....which he may have.
These people are master liars and manipulators.....mmm,....some common ground with other BBC leaders here.
Just want us
1) not to be ignorant
2)not reinjure victims with terms that could be wrong or confusing ...or drag the victim into the sin of the perp.

And always remember...
abuse is never ever called an INCIDENT....
that minimizes the
SIN and CRIME
to something closer to an itty bitty fence.

Tim said...

sheeplessatbbc,

If you would email me I would appreciate it. Thanks.

sheeplessatbbc said...

Tim,

You've got mail.

imaresistor said...

"Hold strong! God told Saul, "Had you waited just a little longer, I'd have established your kingdom forever." "

I have so much admiration for Josh Manning. He is such a strong, young, Christian man...and so bright. It is easy to see how willing and how happy he is to take a stand for Jesus Christ...regardless of the costs. This is what it is all about, isn't it.

I am interested in the reference above that Josh made to scripture in the Bible. I have to admit I can't find it and would love to know exactly where this is. Can anybody point me in the right direction?

Thanks...

Ima

WatchingHISstory said...

Luke 12:47-48 (KJV)
47And that servant, which knew his lord's will, and prepared not himself, neither did according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes.

48But he that knew not, and did commit things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with few stripes.

For unto whomsoever much is given, of him shall be much required: and to whom men have committed much, of him they will ask the more.

There are two classes of servants. Wise stewards whom the lord makes ruler over all that he hath. (vs. 42-44)

vs. 45-48 If that same servant neglects his lord's rule and acts by his own rule then that servant will be surprised by his lord's sudden visitation and he will experience the wrath of the lord's judgements.

Of this there are two groups: the servant who knew his lord's will and the servant who knew not his lord's will. They both will be beaten with stripes accordingly.

There are those whom the lord makes ruler over all that he hath and there are those whom men make rule over all they have. Contrary to the kingdom of God is a hierarchal rule of men based on faulty theology of self determination. This web is so devious that the power that the masses of the unknowing grant to the few who are knowledgeable provokes the LORD himself to reign fire on the earth.

The insult that men do to God is awesome! And Bellevue is reaping this wrath.

Amy said...

Ima-

I received This Little Church Stayed Home yesterday from Amazon.com. Didn't have it at Lifeway! I am anxious to start reading what I am sure is the beginning of my extensive library of GCM books!

GBC_Member said...

Hi Friends,

If you missed Dr. AR on LWF [7am WCRV 640AM] this morning you owe it to yourself to go the the LWF website and give it a listen.

imaresistor said...

Amy said, "Didn't have it at Lifeway"

I am glad to have decided to start reading and creating your own library. I have a nice one. :) This book is by Gary Gilley, right? I read his book, This Little Church Goes to Market, and learned a lot from it. Let me recommend to you, The Truth War-Fighting for Certainty in an Age of Deception, highly! Read it! It is identifying Steve Gaines, my former pastors, all of them and what we are going through and what to do. Understand although...I have not read it. My husband is reading it and he gets so 'caught up' in what he is reading, that he hunts me down to read to me. :) So, I actually have a good insight to the book. MacArthur also has some others out there...Hard to Believe and Ashamed of the Gospel are two others I'd recommend. I think you probably read my list the other day that I posted. Don't miss Redifining Christianity by Bob DeWaay either!

You can't get Bob DeWaay's book at Lifeway. You can't get these books, except for MacArthur's books, at Lifeway. They won't carry anything that might be critical of Rick Warren. And if you don't believe that, I have an email from Jim Schull at Lifeway, who says to me that very thing. I posted that email on this blog once. Don't know if folks took heed to that or not. So, if Lifeway is not interested in selling Truth, I am not interested in buying anything they have. Seems they had rather sell books by New Age, Emergent, and Contemplative authors than books by people who write about Truth. I will never buy anything else from Lifeway. Matter of fact, I think they should be boycotted until they can sell what people need to read...Truth. They are selling books by false teachers. I can easily get on a soapbox on this subject. People weak on knowledge buy this mess and believe it! It is amazing how far things have fallen. I think of the painting of Jesus' face with the earth interjected behind him and he has a tear running down his face. That painting speaks volumns!

Tim said...

Ima,

This is the verse that Josh quoted.

1 Samuel 13:13
And Samuel said to Saul, Thou hast done foolishly: thou hast not kept the commandment of the LORD thy God, which he commanded thee: for now would the LORD have established thy kingdom upon Israel for ever.

SpringerSpaniel said...

Umm... not to stir up a hornets nest or anything...

But what exactly makes Author A's version of the "truth" and therefore critical of Author B more truthful that Author B's version of the "truth". They are both simply men writing books... each giving their version of the "truth."

I suppose it boils down to simply what one chooses to believe... or wants to hear.

And... if someone accepts Jesus as their Savior under a church that follows Rick Warren's church growth model, they are just as saved as someone that gets saved at Berean Baptist Church, are they not?

Tim said...

This was laid upon my heart this morning and I thought that I would share it.

Please note the end of vs.9 and vs.10. "...Nimrod the mighty hunter before the Lord. And the beginning of his kingdom was Babel..." This mighty hunter was the originator of Babylon. This almost seems inconsistent however the verse says that he was mighty BEFORE the Lord, not mighty OF the Lord.

Genesis 10:8-10
8 And Cush begat Nimrod: he began to be a mighty one in the earth.
9 He was a mighty hunter before the LORD: wherefore it is said, Even as Nimrod the mighty hunter before the LORD.
10 And the beginning of his kingdom was Babel, and Erech, and Accad, and Calneh, in the land of Shinar.


Now read the following passage from Micah. This will bless your socks off. This is the rest of the story. It is obvious that Jesus is referrenced by this passage. Something that I had never realized before is that verse 6 references back to the borders of Nimrod (Babylon). This is the end result of those that are might BEFORE the Lord, and not mighty OF the Lord.


Micah 5:1-8
1 Now gather thyself in troops, O daughter of troops: he hath laid siege against us: they shall smite the judge of Israel with a rod upon the cheek.
2 But thou, Bethlehem Ephratah, though thou be little among the thousands of Judah, yet out of thee shall he come forth unto me that is to be ruler in Israel; whose goings forth have been from of old, from everlasting.
3 Therefore will he give them up, until the time that she which travaileth hath brought forth: then the remnant of his brethren shall return unto the children of Israel.
4 And he shall stand and feed in the strength of the LORD, in the majesty of the name of the LORD his God; and they shall abide: for now shall he be great unto the ends of the earth.
5 And this man shall be the peace, when the Assyrian shall come into our land: and when he shall tread in our palaces, then shall we raise against him seven shepherds, and eight principal men.
6 And they shall waste the land of Assyria with the sword, and the land of Nimrod in the entrances thereof: thus shall he deliver us from the Assyrian, when he cometh into our land, and when he treadeth within our borders.
7 And the remnant of Jacob shall be in the midst of many people as a dew from the LORD, as the showers upon the grass, that tarrieth not for man, nor waiteth for the sons of men.
8 And the remnant of Jacob shall be among the Gentiles in the midst of many people as a lion among the beasts of the forest, as a young lion among the flocks of sheep: who, if he go through, both treadeth down, and teareth in pieces, and none can deliver.


This is what really struck me. A counterfiet is designed to resemble the real thing as closely as possible. There is such a subtle difference, between a mighty man BEFORE the Lord and a might man OF the Lord. However, the end results are asstounding.

A mighty man BEFORE the Lord builds his Babel like Nimrod did. A mighty man OF the Lord builds the walls of Jerusalem as Nehemiah did.

Question:
1. Are there any modern day counterfiets such as Nimrod (mighty BEFORE the Lord) building Babel?

concernedSBCer said...

Tim, Excellent. Thanks.

In answer to your question: Too many to count, unfortunately.

sheeplessatbbc said...

Testing..

Lin said...

Umm... not to stir up a hornets nest or anything...

But what exactly makes Author A's version of the "truth" and therefore critical of Author B more truthful that Author B's version of the "truth". They are both simply men writing books... each giving their version of the "truth."

I suppose it boils down to simply what one chooses to believe... or wants to hear.

And... if someone accepts Jesus as their Savior under a church that follows Rick Warren's church growth model, they are just as saved as someone that gets saved at Berean Baptist Church, are they not?

9:04 AM, April 13, 2007

Springer, that is a very good question. The answer can be found in one place: Scripture. In Acts 20 Paul tells them that he delivered the FULL COUNSEL OF GOD so that there is not blood on his hands.

"26Therefore I testify to you this day that I am innocent of the blood of all of you, 27for I did not shrink from declaring to you the whole counsel of God. 28Pay careful attention to yourselves and to all the flock, in which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers, to care for the church of God,[c] which he obtained with his own blood.[d] 29I know that after my departure fierce wolves will come in among you, not sparing the flock; 30and from among your own selves will arise men speaking twisted things, to draw away the disciples after them. 31Therefore be alert, remembering that for three years I did not cease night or day to admonish everyone with tears. "

All through scripture we are warned of false teachers and apostacy. Scripture does not say it 'may' happen. It says it WILL happen. Notice in Acts, Paul says these teachers will come from "your own selves".

How are we to know if a teacher is false? there is only one way...we must know scripture. That is the only way we can spot a counterfeit.

Many times we are looking for the false teacher that denies some obvious Biblical truth. That is not the way satan works. It is much more subtle. As a matter of fact, Satan knows scripture and uses it... usually twisting it and leaving out the important parts. There will always be bits of truth in most false teaching.

Your question is exactly what the Emergents are teaching: Why is YOUR version of truth right and the other wrong? They are trying to convince us that truth is an opinion. They base this on the premise that scripture is not clear as to the FULL COUNSEL OF GOD. OF His Truth.

There are no versions of truth. It is not about what we want to hear. No one really wants to hear the FULL Counsel of God unless the Holy Spirit is convicting them.

The Full Counsel of God offends, divides, breaks us and convicts us.

Piglet said...

Truth or Lie posted this after Coombs refused to open the records:

David Coombs said:
"I can tell you Bellevue is
operated with the highest degree of integrity. But there’s more we can do."

You don't even beleive BBC is operated with the highest degree of integrity yourself or you wouldn't say "but" there's more we can do. The word highest means you can't go higher. Your own words prove what you know to be a lie.

The fact you beleive nobody has a right to know what is being spent doesn't sound like integrity to me.

The fact that a known child molester was allowed to remain on staff until the church body found out and demanded he be ousted doesn't sound like integrity to me.

The fact that $25,000 was sent by our church to a church in town that embraces homosexuality and abortion without even praying over it (Harry Smith's admission)doesn't sound like integrity to me. According to the church that burned, they were fully insured.

The fact that our lay leaders in charge of the finances knew of financial indiscretions by our pastor and refused to address the problem until news of it leaked out doesn't sound like integrity to me.

The fact that you have to be told you are being recorded so you can truthspeak doesn't sound like integrity to me.

8:53 PM, February 15, 2007
***********************************

What we have now is an attempt by the leadership to appear open. The books are still closed. What we see is what they want us to see.

Piglet said...

truth or Lie also posted this:

David Coombs said:
" We have an
unprecedented opportunity to create a new level of communication with you and every
church member with regard to Bellevue’s inner workings"

What you are trying to say David is "we have the keys to the safe, the finance office, the files with all of the secrets. We also have our elite group in high places currently in, past, or coming on again over and over.
Wayne Vander Steeg Chairman of the Personnel Committee, Finance Committee, Missions Committee
(10+years)Steve Tucker Chairman of the Missions Committee, Finance Committee, Pastor Search Committee
Chuck Taylor Past Chairman of the Deacons, Finance Committee, Long Range Planning Committee, Chairman Pastor Search Committee
Harry Smith Chairman Communication Committee, Finance Committee, Long Range Planning Committee, Missions Committee, Pastor Search Committee
Dave Perdue Chairman of the Media Committee, Finance Committee, Hang Mike Spradlin Committee
Bryan Miller Chairman of the Deacons, Finance Committee, ECS President, Long Range Planning Committee, Pastor Search Committee
John Crockett Chairman of the Budget Planning Committee,Finance Committee,
(10+years)John Caldwell Chairman of Deacon Nominating Committee, Finance Committee, Board of Directors, Wife - Pastor Search Committee, Long Range Planning Committee
Jeff Arnold Chairman of the Long Range Planning Committee, Finance Committee, Board of Directors, Pastor Development Council, Pastor Search Committee
We have the control and you can't have any say so. If you want to make a difference, keep your mouth shut and become one of us. If not, go away or be quiet. We don't interpret the laws of the land like you do. In fact, I'm not interested in what the State of Tennessee says. And by the way, we don't operate under bylaws here. We don't need them. HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHA!

God only speaks to the elite. Now be quiet and just drop your offerings in the plate and go on with yourself.

9:08 PM, February 15, 2007

New BBC Open Forum said...

ss wrote:

"But what exactly makes Author A's version of the 'truth' and therefore critical of Author B more truthful that Author B's version of the "truth". They are both simply men writing books... each giving their version of the 'truth.'"

The truth is the truth. There is only one version of "truth."

"And... if someone accepts Jesus as their Savior under a church that follows Rick Warren's church growth model, they are just as saved as someone that gets saved at Berean Baptist Church, are they not?"

Assuming they are truly saved, of course they are. The real question is, a year or ten years down the road, will the person who remains in a PD or CGM church have been nourished by the teaching of the Word and will he have grown in his Christian walk as much as the person in Berean Baptist?

I have a friend in California whose daughter was a soloist at Saddleback for a year. She left, not because people weren't being saved, but because there was no opportunity to grow spiritually. It's like never weaning a child off milk. He may survive, but it's doubtful he'll flourish.

Piglet said...

Everyone remember that last Communications Committee meeting? I'll NEVER forget it.

Here's a post from Truth or Lie about that memorable event.

David Coombs said:
"On December 3, 2006, Harry Smith gave the closing report from the ad hoc
Communication Committee."

David,
Where you there? If you were then you need to appologize for the way Harry handled himself representing Bellevue.
The numbers were growing, more questions were asked, and no answers were given. Harry said numerous times, "I don't know". Was it your decision to shut the CC meeting down? I think the leadership was afraid of the growing numbers that were showing up.
Harry even tried to end the meeting early but a precious lady went into the hallway and carried the sign in with the published times listed.
The whole meeting was staged with the various committee members told to spread out into the crowd and disrupt. Steve Tucker was see rolling his eyes and making wisecracks during the meeting just before he was asked to close in prayer so he prayed to everyone seeking answers in the room and hamnmered them over the head while he told everyone he was going to go teach the Bible.
That was a shameful day in the life of Bellevue.

9:22 PM, February 15, 2007

Piglet said...

I posted this on Feb. 16th:

REGARDING THE IDC MEETING THAT WAS TO TAKE PLACE ON OR BEFORE FEBRUARY 16

In light of the fact that the Bellevue leadership has denied the members a membership roll and a place to meet, this event will have to be postponed until further notice.

12:01 AM, February 16, 2007

***********************************

The leadership has been successful in stonewalling us and preventing information from getting out to the masses. We STILL have not had an open meeting.

The business meeting we DID have was abruptly shut down.

What are the facts they are afraid of?

Amy said...

Springer,


And... if someone accepts Jesus as their Savior under a church that follows Rick Warren's church growth model, they are just as saved as someone that gets saved at Berean Baptist Church, are they not?



If they truly are saved, of course.

What bothers me is this- if as a seeker sensitive church, you gloss over wages of sin, how it separates us from God, redemption, etc... Do you really understand what Christ did for us and God's grace? I read recently Rick Warren's comment that God accepts us as we are. So- why did Christ die for us?

Also, to learn all of the attributes and desires of God, is to truly grasp how awesome He is and how much He loves us. Also, by always staying at a level that will attract others, these churches are robbing people of a full relationship with God. I don't really like to feel convicted either, but that's one of the ways I've grown closer to God.

I think outreach is important. But, IMHO church is for Christians where believers are really discipled. GBC has our Recreation Outreach Center that's open to all, prision ministries, programs inviting the community, etc...

To show God's love we need to understand who God really is and what really is important to God.

Piglet said...

This was posted by 25+ and refers to the letter from David Coombs to Tim Coggins, Riad Saba, and David Green who requested a membership list and other documents (this letter was copied to the entire Bellevue ongregation).

***********************************

25+ said:
Has anyone heard an apology for the apparent lie told to the Commercial Appeal by the new Administrative Pastor of Bellevue. In the paper he said that they were not denied, but on tape he clearly said: "No, no, no, no."

Anyone heard an apology to the congregation for this very public matter? Explanation? Excuse? Spin?

No? Well, then it seems that the attitude is just blame Josh and run over the members asking questions.

That letter plays to the crowd that he assumes backs his view of those who are asking questions.

Whoever lays hands on him before he deals with BOTH man and God regarding this matter will appear to be approving him with this baggage in tow. Regardless of how they may spin what happened to SOTL, this was in print and audio--with adequate CONTEXT.

Once Bellevue was an example of what a church should be... It is fast becoming an example to avoid.
jmo

concernedSBCer said...

In response to Springer's question:

My belief is that EVERYTHING must be measured against the Bible. My problem with PDC (and I've been in a PDC church) is that it is so surface roots do not grow deep for those who are saved there. Are they any less saved? I don't think so. Are they missing out on the riches of all God's blessings? Probably. Do they learn to study for themselves? Many times not. Do they see following the Christ as easy? Yes, many times they do. However, it's not easy. As we know, sometimes we must take stands that are not popular or easy. But having found that foundation of God's Holy Word, we must stand for truth.

Frankly, right now, anything I read is going to be scrutinized. Things are just really out of whack.

Tim said...

Quick note:

Question: PDC & CGM?

Answer: Nimrod Babel building.

Lin said...

Tim, that is right. Thanks for sharing the verses earlier...made me go back and read Micah again!

There is so much we miss in scripture! There is so much to glean each time we read.

Karen said...

There was a statement made in the "celebration" about 1500+ new members added to the roles of BBC last year.

What they failed to mention was that 1400+ have left the church in the about the same time period.

Don't ask me to prove it to you - do what others have done - Research it for yourselves.

karen

Amy said...

Tim,

You have mail.

New BBC Open Forum said...

Are you "emergent"?

Take this self test...

You have tipped hair (+1)
You have gray hair (0)
You have TV evangelist hair (-1)

Your congregation meets in a home (+1)
Your congregation meets in converted strip mall (0)
Your congregation meets in white clapboard church on the wrong side of the tracks (-1)

You worship with candles and homemade songs (+1)
You worship with an overhead projector and worship band (0)
You worship with a hymnal and Hammond organ (-1)

Your sermons have one memorable picture (+1)
Your sermons have one memorable point (0)
Your sermons have ten points that even you can't remember Monday morning (-1)

Your hero is Brian McLaren (+1)
Your hero is Bill Hybels (0)
Your hero is John Maxwell (-1)

You're indefinable (+1)
You're "pomo" (postmodern) (0)
You're modern (-1)

Your church is "missional" (+1)
Your church is "seeker friendly" (0)
Your church is "mainstream" (-1)

Your ministry emphasis is relationships (+1)
Your ministry emphasis is attendance numbers (0)
Your ministry emphasis is membership requirements (-1)

Your focus is the world (+1)
Your focus is the local church (0)
Your focus is yourself (-1)

You like mystery (+1)
You like systematic theology (0)
You like black and white categories (-1)

You wear sandals (+1)
You wear sneakers (0)
You wear wingtips (-1)

You consider yourself emergent (+1)
You've heard of emergent (0)
What's emergent? (-1)

So, how did you score?

junk99mail said...

piglet...
You keeping some sort of "greatest hits" archive there? a "best of the blog" to repost from? :)

just kidding ya; it's all stuff worth being reminded of

Lin said...

Nass,

It should be:

Your congregation meets in a bar. (Rob Bell)

:o)

junk99mail said...

NASS,
From the some of the wording of the questions for the "emergent" test, I'm guessing it was written by someone more pro-emernent than against it. Right? Like these:

Your focus is the world (+1)
Your focus is the local church (0)
Your focus is yourself (-1)

Only a pro-emergent would claim that they focus on the world but non-emergents focus on themselves!

junk99mail said...

lin,
Maybe even some of the emergents consider church in a bar extreme. :)

concernedSBCer said...

Junk: Good point! I noticed that myself. The other one that sent red flags flying was:

Your ministry emphasis is relationships (+1)
Your ministry emphasis is attendance numbers (0)
Your ministry emphasis is membership requirements (-1)

I ask: What is the difference between attendance and membership requirements?

Or this one?
Your hero is Brian McLaren (+1)
Your hero is Bill Hybels (0)
Your hero is John Maxwell (-1)

How about Jesus, the Author and Finisher of our faith? (Heb. 2:2)?

junk99mail said...

concerned,
I almost included the one about "relationships vs attendance vs membership requirements". As if emergents care about people but others only care about requirements! It reminds me of how a certain political party (which shall remain nameless, but which has liberal beliefs that some emergents would be comfortable with) like to claim to be the ones with compassion and for the working man, as if the other party was mean and against working people.

The choices all seem to be between emergent (+1), seeker-friendly (0) and traditional (-1). If so, the difference between membership requirements and attendance is the difference between a traditional church, which focuses on people having a genuine salvation experience as a requirement to be a church member, verses a more seeker oriented church that is focused on the numbers who show up.

P.S. Jesus is my ONLY real hero. :)

concernedSBCer said...

Junk: AMEN!

charlie fox said...

Lin said...
Nass,

It should be:

Your congregation meets in a bar. (Rob Bell)

REPLY:
The GBC congregation found out that they were supporting a "worship gathering" for students and young adults at Newby's Bar down by the U of M campus. The former staff did it without bothering to inform the congregation. Needless to say, that didn't sit to well with them. That operation is now defunct.

Karen said...

charlie,

Another example of "whatever it takes" - I'm glad this was shut down. With all the available store fronts in this town, what was the final decision to meet in a BAR? Was there a 2 drink minimum?

karen

imaresistor said...

Charlie Fox said, "The GBC congregation found out that they were supporting a "worship gathering" for students and young adults at Newby's Bar down by the U of M campus."

Reply: Charlie...I know this is a part of what goes on with CGM, but when I read this I STILL had to get my 'barf bag'.

GBC_Member said...

charlie fox said...
Lin said...
Nass,

It should be:

Your congregation meets in a bar. (Rob Bell)

REPLY:
The GBC congregation found out that they were supporting a "worship gathering" for students and young adults at Newby's Bar down by the U of M campus. The former staff did it without bothering to inform the congregation. Needless to say, that didn't sit to well with them. That operation is now defunct.

12:44 PM, April 13, 2007


I remember that vote, and as I recall the GBC congregation rejected a budget amendment to delete $20,000 from the budget to fund the Newby's Bible study and to reallocate it elsewhere. So basically the congrgation approved the Newby's funding by rejecting the amendment to delete the funding.

IIRC the deal was that GBC would partially fund the rental of a room (along with other area churches) so that a Bible Study / gathering could be held in Newby's. I didn't realize it was defunct. If it is defunct it is not because the GBC congregation voted it down, the funding was approved. The vote to fund was after much civil (and public) discussion both pro and con at a GBC business meeting. The pastor responsible for the program (FJ) took multiple questions from the floor regarding the efficacy of the program, why was it held there, what was the format, how many attend, are people getting saved (yes), was alcohol served to participants (no), and other questions.

Seems like that's they way it should be, have a full discussion and disclosure and then let the congregation vote. FJ also invited anyone that wanted to to go and observe and report back. It never came up at another meeting so either no one went to do any due diligence or they did and didn't see anything they didn't like.

Perhaps FJ was so supportive of the ministry because he himself was saved in a bar.

I wonder why it went defunct.

Full disclosure - I voted to continue the Newby's funding. I do understand the arguments and the position of those opposed. I just felt there were more compelling reasons presented at the business meeting to continue the program given the way the program was described.

Lindon said...

Maybe even some of the emergents consider church in a bar extreme. :)

Hey, tell it to pastor Rob Bell who held his 'Everything is Spiritual' tour in bars all over the country.

Lindon said...

The GBC congregation found out that they were supporting a "worship gathering" for students and young adults at Newby's Bar down by the U of M campus. The former staff did it without bothering to inform the congregation. Needless to say, that didn't sit to well with them. That operation is now defunct. "

Nass, I have another one for you. At my former mega, a manager was FIRED because she had the nerve to say that perhaps it was not appropriate for staff to spend their day retreat in a popular sports bar in town. She was accused of not being a 'team player'.

Seriously, she was fired for trying to protect the church! She was called divisive and holier than thou! (She's not...just thought it was inappropriate in many ways...including spending tithe dollars at a bar with drinking and gambling?)

charlie fox said...

amy,

You have mail.

New BBC Open Forum said...

We've heard about the 3-minute excerpt from the July 10, 2006 Gardendale "farewell" tape and how it was taken out of context. I watched the entire tape a few months ago, and here are some excerpts:

*** In early December 2004, an article in the Commercial Appeal about the retirement of Dr. Rogers mentioned Steve Gaines as a possible replacement. He called the head of the search committee, Chuck Taylor, who told him that out of 170 candidates they'd narrowed the list down to five and that he was on the short list. He said he told Chuck Taylor to just take his name off the list. "Now your list is four," he reportedly said.

*** The following Sunday he told the Gardendale congregation he'd told Bellevue to remove his name from consideration, that "God wants me to die an old man here in Gardendale," and that he would stand by them in moving to their new property. He said he'd "died to the issue of ever going to Bellevue."

"We did everything we could not to leave."

*** He'd been asked back in the fall, before he asked to be taken off the list, to speak at Dr. Rogers' retirement service on March 4th. Two or three days before, Chuck Taylor called him and asked if he'd be willing to meet with the search committee "since you're going to be here anyway."

Gaines said, "I really don't want to. But we'll talk to you."

He said of that meeting: "The meeting was okay, but it was nothing electric. Donna and I sensed no call whatsoever at that time to talk any further with them."

*** Chuck Taylor called them back for a second meeting, and he said, "Let us pray about it."

*** On Easter, Dr. Gaines called the search committee and related the conversation like this: "I said, 'Look, just take our name off the list.' That was the second time. 'I don't want to fool with it. I really don't want to do this.' In my mind I was saying, 'I wish you'd just go away and let us do what we need to do.' I thought surely that was the end of it."

*** He said pastor friends began calling and encouraging him to "be open" about going to Bellevue. He asked if any of them had spoken with Adrian Rogers, and all said no.

*** While at a meeting in San Diego 7 or 8 more pastor friends came up to him and said, "God told me you should be open about going to Bellevue." All denied talking with Dr. Rogers.

*** While visiting his in-laws in Memphis, he was sitting on the grounds of Bellevue early one morning reading his Bible when he read the passage from the 6th chapter of Judges -- "Go in the strength that you have. Am I not sending you to rescue the Israelites from the Midianites?" He said the Lord told him He wanted him "to finish his ministry in this place."

*** And then there's the famous 3-minute clip. He'd flown to Memphis for "one last meeting" sometime around late May. Here's what he said:

"One thing about Gideon. He put out a fleece. So I put out a fleece. I said, 'Lord, I'm gonna be so hardnosed on this meeting, and I'm gonna tell them everything I don't like about their church, and I'm gonna tick 'em off so bad... heh heh... that they won't want me.' It wasn't exactly like that, but it was close. And I told 'em everything I thought they'd have to change, everything that we do right that they do wrong... I mean that. I came back and told Donna, I said, 'No way on God's green earth they'll want me now.'

"Got a call back, and they said, 'We have one more question we want to ask you, but we want to ask you in person.' I said, 'What are you talking about?' They said, 'Well, we want to ask you to be our pastor.' I said, 'Well, I thought... didn't I tick you guys off?' They said, 'No... in fact two guys were wondering if you were going to be a strong enough leader, and we all figured, he's strong.' Heh heh. So they... what I thought was gonna mess 'em up actually kept the process going."

*** I noticed in a different thread someone commented about Dr. Gaines comparing himself to Moses. In this tape, not only does he compare himself to Moses (not getting to lead the Israelites into the promised land), he compared himself to David not getting to build the temple.

*** He was complimenting his wife on how much time she put into preparing for the Bible studies she led. "If I studied for my sermons like she studies, this church would be running 7000."

*** Then he talked about the "numbers" since he came to Gardendale. "More than 3000 saved and baptized." The budget went from $2 million to $9 million. The church "doubled in size."

So that was the whole tape. Did taking the 3-minute clip out of context make any difference in its significance? In my opinion, no.

A couple of thoughts came to mind though.

1. Although he said he "did everything we could not to leave (Gardendale)," he still hopped on a plane for Memphis when they called him for meetings. I'm not questioning whether he felt called by God to do that. Just that he didn't seem to be doing "everything" not to come here.

2. Did all 170 candidates submit applications and resumes? If the CA article in early December was the first time he'd heard he was being considered for the job, then that implies he didn't apply for it. Again, I'm not saying he's being untruthful. It just seems odd that the search committee could narrow the list down to five when at least one of them didn't even know he was being considered.

What I did see was a man who seemed genuinely sad to be leaving the church and people he'd pastored for 14 years. He seemed much more humble than I've ever seen him here. Maybe it was the lack of a tie. In just his dark suit and white dress shirt I couldn't help but be reminded of a courtroom setting where they make the defendant remove anything that could be used to harm himself.

charlie fox said...

NASS,

You have mail.

junk99mail said...

NASS,
Thanks for the description. Having the full context shows that the what he said in the clip means just what it appeared to mean.

It always makes me uneasy when someone states with certainty "God wants me to do this and not that" and then later they claim with equal conviction that God has told them something clearly contradictory. If he had said, "God has led me to Gardendale and I will not leave until He tells me to", that would be fine ... but to say "God wants me to die an old man here in Gardendale" and then later decide God wanted him at BBC ... well, that's a problem.

Did God have a plan for the rest of his life and ministry, but suddenly change it? If so, God would be capricious, acting on whim, and His Word and promises could not be trusted; they would be meaningless.

Or did SG just decide to go ahead and leave Garendale even though God wanted him to stay? If so, SG is the one acting on whim and not to be trusted.

Or was SG just mistaken in what he thought God wanted? It would be ok to be mistaken, but it seems to me to be presumptious and lacking humility to boldly assert knowledge of God's plans for the future -- unless He has given some sort of divine revelation of prophecy. But the Bible is clear that if anyone makes a claim that God has shown them what will happen in the future (a prophecy), and if that prophecy does not come true, that person is a false prophet (and under Old Testament law was to be stoned to death).

So anyway you look at it, there's a problem. How did the pulpit committee not see that?

junk99mail said...

One other thought re: NASS's description if the Gardendale farewell tape... perhaps SG seemed more humble there than his public persona has been at BBC because he has been afraid that showing humility would be perceived as weakness by those who said they were concerned about whether he would be strong enough to be pastor at BBC. It is all too easy for any of us to forget that God's strength is made manifest in our weakness.

charlie fox said...

junk,

Have you ever heard a pastor state "God told me this or that" or "God gave me this vision or that" as a means of convincing a congregation to go his way. It appears fairly easy to do, when the congregation doesn't have a solid foundation built on the WORD.

gmommylv said...

Nass....
when SG got the 2nd vision from "GOD".....
how does that work in the timeline with Bro R knowing he had cancer???

I say this not knowing the timeline...
but I think with the character he has shown us these past 18 months or so....SG would feel a lot safer taking "the call" if he thought Bro R wasn't a healthy man.

junk99mail said...

charlie,
I've never encountered what you mentioned specifically. But I've known many, many preachers and pastors, and I know it is all too common for them to have big egos. Some are no doubt attracted to the idea of ministry because of the strokes, accolades, and power that cam come with the position. And then when they encounter the difficult aspects of dealing with God's imperfect people and the trials designed to refine them into Christ's image, suddenly they are "called" to greener looking pastures. But there are also those genuine servants of the Lord, who reflect His character in holiness and love.

New BBC Open Forum said...

junk wrote:

"But the Bible is clear that if anyone makes a claim that God has shown them what will happen in the future (a prophecy), and if that prophecy does not come true, that person is a false prophet (and under Old Testament law was to be stoned to death)."

Good grief, junk. You're going to be accused of making a death threat against Steve Gaines! You were just paraphrasing Scripture, but I recall only a short time ago when James Sundquist quoted Scripture and was accused likely and thus so.

Quick! Assume damage control mode!

junk99mail said...

NASS,
Context is everything! :)

You are right; thanks for the admonition.

ALL -- I in no way meant to imply any threat or wish for harm towards Steve Gaines.

New BBC Open Forum said...

Thank you, junk. :-)

concernedSBCer said...

Charlie said: "Have you ever heard a pastor state "God told me this or that" or "God gave me this vision or that" as a means of convincing a congregation to go his way. It appears fairly easy to do, when the congregation doesn't have a solid foundation built on the WORD."

Yes, I have. When our pastor started transitioning our church. He said GOD told him to change our worship style and how we did things. (after a trip to Saddleback, of course.)

gmommylv said...

I was told today
by a young man that has grown up at BBC
( and has the wisdom to question what is happening there)...
a youth pastor said to him....Be very careful what you say about a man "called by God".

are you sure we can't make references to a liquid drink?
This is scary.

concernedSBCer said...

Just a thought.....my daddy used to tell me that if you are really "smart" you shouldn't have to tell anyone...it should be apparent. If he's the "Man of God" why does everyone feel it necessary to remind others of this? Wouldn't it be apparent?

just askin'

WatchingHISstory said...

Tim

I like that; mighty man before the Lord and a mighty man of the Lord. I agree, a big difference.

sheeplessatbbc said...

Yes!

concernedSBCer said...
Just a thought.....my daddy used to tell me that if you are really "smart" you shouldn't have to tell anyone...it should be apparent. If he's the "Man of God" why does everyone feel it necessary to remind others of this? Wouldn't it be apparent?

just askin'

Concerned, your Daddy is absolutely, positively right.

I used to have business dealing (early 80's) with a man and I thought for the longest time, "there is something really different about this man, something special". A couple of years later I learned just thru casual conversation that he was a
DEACON AT BELLEVUE! It really warmed my heart; if only we had more deacons and leaders that we could see that in today at BBC. He has moved on to another church, even before Steve came, maybe he saw the corruption in leadership and the way they were working behind Dr Rogers back.

allofgrace said...

As Christians it's true we should always be careful what we say about anyone...however to speak of a "man of God" as though he were God himself, and that speaking against him would be akin to speaking blasphemy against God, IS scary. I find nothing in scripture to support that idea.

sheeplessatbbc said...

Speaking the truth is not speaking against a person, it simply is speaking the truth.

Sometimes truth is ugly and in Steve Gaines case there is a lot of ugly.

sheeplessatbbc said...

That reminds me of the "Ugly Mug"

Where in the world is "Chip"

David Brown said...

Dearest Brothers and Sisters: First I want to remind everyone about the 20/20 show tonight.

Last week when I was challenged about some of my statements or phrases, SOTL was also challenged as to the stats she was quoting. Let me give you one more that will chill you right to the bone.

There are over 500,000 admitted, convicted pedophiles in the United States. The number of victims are over 39 million. These are dear people that were abused as a minor.

But those numbers pale when you condsider this: of those 500,000 pedophiles over 250,000 of them admit that they REGULARLY attend CHURCH. As some said last week to me they did not believe that the stats fit Bellevue. I strongly disagree. What makes Bellevue so safe? We have all seen how that assuption was wrong. No those numbers don't lie and they are just another reason we all must everything we can to protect our children.

Do some of you remember "Rachel" and her heart wrenching story of the abuse her son sustained?

Please take the time to watch this show. If you don't feel comfortable watching it with your children, please record it and watch it later.

God Bless you all.

David Brown

Amy said...

Charlie Fox has mail!

WatchingHISstory said...

Luke 12:47-48 (KJV)
47And that servant, which knew his lord's will, and prepared not himself, neither did according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes.

48But he that knew not, and did commit things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with few stripes.

For unto whomsoever much is given, of him shall be much required: and to whom men have committed much, of him they will ask the more.

There are two classes of servants. Wise stewards whom the lord makes ruler over all that he hath. (vs. 42-44)

vs. 45-48 If that same servant neglects his lord's rule and acts by his own rule then that servant will be surprised by his lord's sudden visitation and he will experience the wrath of the lord's judgements.

In His kingdom God sovereignly makes (individually) our rule over all which we have. When men choose to step out of this rule they have the rule of men in God's place.

They have a pyramidal hierarchical rule with prescribed strict protocols. It is a rule on a broad base of subordinates with ranks and order levels peaking to the top with celebrity status.

"For unto whomsoever much is given, of him shall much be required: and to whom men have committed much, of him they will ask the more."

This pyramid grows exponentially, but without God's blessing. All the servants get a beating according to their knowledge of their lord's will. Some of these servants will receive their portion with the unbelievers.

Holiness will not grow exponentially only individually in the heart. But the growth of the pyramid can grow quickly and expand rapidly without the inward change of the heart. Large buildings and capital can spring up suddenly. Sin and hardness of heart thrives in this environment and demons capitalize on this.

Against this Christ comes to send fire on the earth and it is already kindled. He is distressed due to his baptism wherein he died to accomplish grace and yet men insult the Spirit of grace.

"Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense," saith the Lord.
It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God. (Heb. 10:30,31)

sheeplessatbbc said...

David, thanks for the reminder for tonite and for the stats.

50% attending church regularly is a shocking revelation.

Thank you for protecting our children and helping them to feel there is a safe place and people who do care about them and love them. God always loves them, they are his precious innocent children.

junk99mail said...

Earlier today there was a post that referred to “versions of ‘truth’” -- and several responses indicating that truth is truth, that truth is revealed in scripture, and that knowing scripture is the key to knowing the truth. I would hope that any Christian would know this (but I realize not all Christians do). But this discussion brought to mind some thoughts and questions I’ve had in this regard, some of which I posted recently on another blog and was considering posting here. So I’m going to share those thoughts here, for whatever they are worth. I have appreciated the interaction and study coming from posters to this blog, so I welcome feedback – although I suspect that what I say will probably get me fussed at by some.

It has been stated here often that the basis of Christian unity is truth and that there can be no real unity apart from truth.

Not to minimize the concerns of my friends on this blog, nor to imply anything negative about their concerns... but I have to admit that it is all to easy to take separatism to extremes, so that the separatists start separating from each other. That is one of the reasons we have so many denominations already, especially so many Baptist denominations.

Separatism has long been a key Baptist distinctive and defining characteristic. And, of course, the idea of "being separate" from the world is biblical, and it is also biblical that there is a point at which those who claim to be Christians are so close to the world in their views and behavior, that it is necessary to be separate from them, as well. But the problem is determining what that point is ... which behaviors, which views, which doctrines are so bad as to make separation necessary?

The Bible is plain on this when it comes to those involved in blatant immorality -- but what of those who do not live immorally, but are tolerant of those who do? Likewise, the Bible is clear that we are to be separate from those espousing heretical views on essential Christian doctrines (the fundamentals of the faith espoused in the earliest Christian creeds). But are we also to separate from those whose doctrines are not quite that bad, but who in turn associate with or quote or do not condemn others who DO have heretical teachings?

Where is the line?

History and human nature show that there are always those who are too quick to separate, who draw the line too quickly, and those who are too slow to separate, who draw hardly any lines at all.

The "easy" answer is that the line is to be drawn with the truth of scripture, because all unity is based on and requires truth. The problem, though, is whose interpretation of scripture? Sure, there are some things that are so plain in scripture that pretty much everyone can agree on. The hard part is with those things that must be inferred, or which involve application more than one scriptural principle at a time. Based on their interpretation of scripture, the churches of Christ separate from churches that have musical instruments (even churches that believe pretty much everything else the same as they do, such as the independent Christian churches). Pentecostals are separate from those who do not believe that tongues-speaking is a valid spiritual gift for today. The Baptists separate from those who do practice infant baptism. And all of these base their separations on their understanding of the "plain truth of the Bible". The point here being that the "easy" answer of unity based on the truth of the Bible, which is absolute truth, can involve our frail, human, subjective interpretations of that absolute truth. Which makes things more complicated than it might seem at first glance.

My conclusions? I have none. No answers here, just observations...

Piglet said...

Junk said

piglet...
You keeping some sort of "greatest hits" archive there? a "best of the blog" to repost from? :)

just kidding ya; it's all stuff worth being reminded of


Piglet says:

I'm pulling stuff from the archives for new lurkers. I've heard several times in the last week or two that folks are checking out the blog for the first time and aren't seeing anything of substance. It's either:

1) Theological debate
2) Arguments
3) Jokes
4) PDL/PDC stuff

I just want the issues to show up on every thread from now on, so I'll be pulling in some "good stuff" here and there.

It's my new job. I can't do much, but I'll do what I can.

Now, continue discussion amongst your fine selves. :)

socwork said...

What's even worse about those statistics is that those 250,000+ who report regular attendance at church are only the "admitted, convicted pedophiles."

Hello?

That does not even take into account those who have not been caught yet. And we know how much time passed between the time PW perpetrated and the time he was "outed," don't we?

Think about it.

And please do watch the 20/20 report tonight. If you have TiVo, use it!

sheeplessatbbc said...

I vote we give Piglet a raise, a big raise.

All you bloggers that approve say, "OINK, OINK"..ok that passes unanimously.

How much you want piglet, could you use some little pink satin slippers for your footsies?

You want to go to cheerleading tryouts too??!!

You sure are a greedy little pink pig.

Shameface, shameface..OK, we forgive you. Standing O!

sheeplessatbbc said...

Piglet,

You're doing a fine job!!

charlie fox said...

amy,

Mail back at cha.

WatchingHISstory said...

2 Corinthians 10:4 (King James Version)
(For the weapons of our warfare are not carnal, but mighty through God to the pulling down of strong holds;)

Philippians 6:12
For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.

Piglet says:

"I'm pulling stuff from the archives for new lurkers. I've heard several times in the last week or two that folks are checking out the blog for the first time and aren't seeing anything of substance."

It seems that you want this blog to be lurker sensitive or piglet sensitive as you and the lurkers determine what is of substance.

You fail to remember that others like yourself are just as interested in finding solutions. Most people believe that in some way God is speaking to them as to the problems at Bellevue and they are contributing their part.

I believe that the root of Bellevue's problem is a theological issue and when I post that the "argument" distraction follows. That is unfair to me as I am not interested in arguing though I enjoy healthy debate.

Much of which you call substance is just dumping on SG and the leadership. But Bellevue's problems are deeper than that. There are spirits (not men) at work in high places and they thrive on misinterpreted Biblical truths.

I will continue posting until God is finished with me posting. I do not report to you but to God and NBBCOF

sheeplessatbbc said...

Piglet,

Check out "A Former Pastor"
1:46 pm 3/2/ and part 2 11:25 pm on 3/4 & Koragg 10:10 pm 3/2

Just thinkin..might be of interest to the new lurkers.

Keep up the good work...But no more raises!!!!!!!!!

sheeplessatbbc said...

THIS WILL KNOCK YOUR SOCKS OFF!!

The many ways Steve Gaines can earn extra money besides preaching at other churches on Wed nights..oh, wait several of those cancelled on him when they learned he had kept a pedophile minister on staff at Bellevue for 6 months after the pedophile minister confessed to him (Steve Gaines). What!! he even gave the pedophile minister a raise during that 6 month period??


Truth or Lie? said...
Just My Opinion,
Just in case you forgot about this one, here it is again. Enjoy.

Journey of Paul and John May 21- June 3, 2007

http://www.dehoneytravel.com

tours/biblical Greece and Turkey

xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

Dear XXXX, 10/16/2006

The price listed on our website for this trip is based on 1 free for 5 host benefits: for every 5 paying passengers, the 6th trip is free. This is our standard host benefit ratio on this particular tour package and will apply to all hosts recruiting travelers for this tour. As an alternate to earning free trips, you may choose to take the cash value of a trip for every 5 paying passengers. For instance, if you needed to cover two tour leader trips, and then took the remaining host benefits in cash, it would take 10 paying passengers to earn your two free trips. Thereafter, you would receive the cash amount of $4899 per every 5 additional paying passengers. Thus, your host benefits could look like this:

After 5 paying passengers, 1st free trip

After 10 paying passengers, 2nd free trip

After 15 paying passengers, 2 free trips + cash cost of 1 trip $4899

After 20 paying passengers, 2 free trips + cash cost of 2 trips $9798

After 30 paying passengers, 2 free trips + cash cost of 4 trips $19,596

After 40 paying passengers, 2 free trips + cash cost of 6 trips $29,394

After 50 paying passengers, 2 free trips + cash cost of 8 trips $39,192

After 60 paying passengers, 2 free trips + cash cost of 10 trips $48,990

After 70 paying passengers, 2 free trips + cash cost of 12 trips $58,788



I hope this information is clear and helpful. Please let me know if you have any questions.



Sincerely,

Melissa

To earn only 2 free trips for 80 travelers with no additional host benefits, the cost would drop to $4199 per person.



Melissa Williamson

Dehoney Travel, Inc.

3008 Charlestown Crossing

New Albany, IN 47150
phone (812) 206-1080 or (800) 325-6708

fax (812) 206-1085

melissa@dehoneytravel.com

www.dehoneytravel.com



Below Link

Here is a different travel tour company that gives a 1in 3 free trips. It appears a pastor could make almost twice as much money using them.

http://www.christiantravelopps.com/hosts.htm



Jamie, Steve and Sam Shaw listed last year as going on Paul's Journey
7:55 PM, February 27, 2007

New BBC Open Forum said...

watchinghisstory wrote:

"But Bellevue's problems are deeper than that. There are spirits (not men) at work in high places and they thrive on misinterpreted Biblical truths."

I certainly won't argue with that. The floor is yours. Without dragging Dr. Rogers' name into your argument, would you please detail what you believe to be the real problem(s) facing BBC?

WatchingHISstory said...

NBBCOF

I can't do it without dragging Dr. Rogers name into it.

New BBC Open Forum said...

Okay, e-mail it to me if you don't mind. I'm sincerely interested.

WatchingHISstory said...

NBBCOF

I will this weekend

Piglet said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Piglet said...

Sheepless

Thanks for the raise - and the help!

An occasional reminder about the specifics of the problems at BBC would benefit us all, but would especially help those just now seeing problems.

Apparently there have been more folks willing to investigate after the sideshow on celebration Sunday.

socwork said...

10 Minute Warning!

Don't forget - 20/20 is on in ten minutes on ABC.

LilOleMe said...

I would like to suggest a link on the opening page that has blog posts (in order), that have to do with the matters at hand...what d'ya think? I know it would be a LOT of work, but I think it would help.

New BBC Open Forum said...

Thanks, watching. I'll look forward to that.

New BBC Open Forum said...

lololeme,

There are already links for each month's archives on the front page which anyone can access, but I will consider compiling an "index" of sorts. Thank you for the suggestion.

LilOleMe said...

yeah, I know, but boy, they take a long time to weed through....I mean all the extra stuff taken out.

Also, I think someone needs to make a book of Dr Loney's post--oh my, hysterical!

New BBC Open Forum said...

"yeah, I know, but boy, they take a long time to weed through....I mean all the extra stuff taken out."

But one man's "extra stuff" might be another man's "important stuff."

I'm with you regarding Dr. Loney!

New BBC Open Forum said...

Sheesh! Someone tell me when the "wolf man" story is over!

ezekiel said...

There is a church on every corner, much like under every green tree and on every high hill. From BBC of old to Saddleback, one thing they all have in common is extreme trust and faith of the senior pastor. We have more trust in the building and the pastor than our SAVIOR. People today will sit under a pastor regardless of his teaching all because "we have too much invested, tithes, time and money to move". Now who are we worshipping?

1"The sin of Judah is written with a pen of iron; with a point of diamond it is engraved on the tablet of their heart, and on the horns of their altars, 2while their children remember their altars and their Asherim, beside every green tree and on the high hills, 3on the mountains in the open country. Your wealth and all your treasures I will give for spoil as the price of your high places for sin throughout all your territory. 4You shall loosen your hand from your heritage that I gave to you, and I will make you serve your enemies in a land that you do not know, for in my anger a fire is kindled that shall burn forever."
    
 5Thus says the LORD:
"Cursed is the man who trusts in man
   and makes flesh his strength,[a]
   whose heart turns away from the LORD.

concernedSBCer said...

Okay, Wolfman story is creeping me out. Yuk!

socwork said...

NBBCOF,

LOL!!! No joke! What in the world??

Sounds like the wolf man finds a wolf woman after this commercial break. :)

ezekiel said...

Take a good look at Jeremiah 25:26..All the kings of the north, near and far, one after another, and all the kingdoms of the world that are on the face of the earth. And after them the king of Babylon shall drink.

That is drink of the cup of the Lord's wrath. You will find the same cup in Rev 18 when Babylon falls. Its king will drink of the Lord's cup of wrath.

Jeremiah's prophesy is not fullfilled. Won't be until Revelations. I suggest a good study of Jeremiah. Pay close attention to any reference to shepherds. You will be shocked.

Ask the Holy Spirit, your real teacher to guide you as you read it.

Amy said...

I just walked in and saw the screen for a split second.

Please tell me that Wolf Man was not eating a dead animal carcass!!

concernedSBCer said...

Amy, I'd like to tell you that..but I can't....sometimes he did take out the organs, cook them, and put them back in the carcass; sometimes not. Make you feel better?

LilOleMe said...

What is Integrity Does Count working on now? Is there any plan?

Amy said...

Concerned said

..sometimes he did take out the organs, cook them, and put them back in the carcass; sometimes not. Make you feel better?

Much better!!!
Thanks!

New BBC Open Forum said...

Okay, the story of interest will begin after this commercial break.

ezekiel said...

*** While at a meeting in San Diego 7 or 8 more pastor friends came up to him and said, "God told me you should be open about going to Bellevue." All denied talking with Dr. Rogers.

*** While visiting his in-laws in Memphis, he was sitting on the grounds of Bellevue early one morning reading his Bible when he read the passage from the 6th chapter of Judges -- "Go in the strength that you have. Am I not sending you to rescue the Israelites from the Midianites?" He said the Lord told him He wanted him "to finish his ministry in this place."





23"Am I a God at hand, declares the LORD, and not a God afar off? 24Can a man hide himself in secret places so that I cannot see him? declares the LORD. Do I not fill heaven and earth? declares the LORD. 25I have heard what the prophets have said who prophesy lies in my name, saying, 'I have dreamed, I have dreamed!' 26How long shall there be lies in the heart of the prophets who prophesy lies, and who prophesy the deceit of their own heart, 27who think to make my people forget my name by their dreams that they tell one another, even as their fathers forgot my name for Baal? 28Let the prophet who has a dream tell the dream, but let him who has my word speak my word faithfully. What has straw in common with wheat? declares the LORD. 29Is not my word like fire, declares the LORD, and like a hammer that breaks the rock in pieces? 30Therefore, behold, I am against the prophets, declares the LORD, who steal my words from one another. 31Behold, I am against the prophets, declares the LORD, who use their tongues and declare, 'declares the LORD.' 32Behold, I am against those who prophesy lying dreams, declares the LORD, and who tell them and lead my people astray by their lies and their recklessness, when I did not send them or charge them. So they do not profit this people at all, declares the LORD.

New BBC Open Forum said...

Anyone notice the photos of Bellevue and the crosses?

sheeplessatbbc said...

Yes, they seemed to be the focal point.

concernedSBCer said...

Frank Page didn't come off so well....

And BBC was pictured....

charlie fox said...

The show sure made SBC look bad. And I agree with concerned, Frank Page didn't do so hot.

Amy said...

As Southern Baptists, not our finest moment...

New BBC Open Forum said...

From tonight's broadcast...

"Retired" pastor, Larry Reynolds, of Southmont Baptist Church, Denton, Texas, accused of past sexual abuse of a 14-year-old member of his church, said, "Twenty years ago I made a 'terrible mistake.'"

The story.

Would that be anything like a "past moral failure"?

nathanb said...

Nationwide Television exposure for Bellevue Baptist Church breaks my heart.

We have Steve Gaines to thank for this. Although Bellevue was not mentioned by name, thousands of people around the country and all of Memphis metro saw the once great Bellevue Baptist Church shamed and disgraced.

Steve Gaines, if you are reading this, please resign and leave so healing can take place. Your inaction in June of last year has led to tonight.

Why are you refusing to leave? Let go of your pride. I pray your Love for the Lord releases you of your hold on your position.

preacherdude777 said...

Shame they didn't expose Steve Gaines and his staff pedafile. Why hasn't Steve been arrested yet?

concernedSBCer said...

I thought the point that there are pastors in the SBC website that are IN PRISON was terrible. I can't believe the leadership is that irresponsible.

charlie fox said...

amy,

More mail.

preacherdude777 said...

I am shocked that there are two sex offenders at Southern Seminary. I guess they probably won't be back next semester now.

David Brown said...

Dear Brothers and Sisters: We have been after the SBC and Frank Page to start this database. It sickens me to hear him say we are "looking" into it.

Good grief a simple Exel program would work!

I cannot understand their stalling. Maybe now after the airing of this segment will they do something to protect our children. It is way past time.

Please I urge all to contact the SBC in Nashville and demand they take action now. I am afraid they will form another committee of committees to "study" what to do. I think it is way past time to form this database. Shoot I will donate the Exel program. Once again please prayerfully consider contacting them and demand they do it now. Please?

God Bless to all.

In HIS Service

David Brown

sickofthelies said...

Here's the bottom line about sexual predator withint the SBC:

NO ONE CARES...Oh, sure, WE do, and a few others, but you talk to some of the people at BBC and they will tell you that they did not agree wtih how SG handled the PW crime, BUT..are they outraged? NO!!!

They continue to support him. One can only concur that child predators do not offend them.

They just shrug their shoulders and run after SG so they can kiss his ring.

concernedSBCer said...

preacherdude: that blew me away too. At the seminary......and no one has checked????

David Brown said...

Dear NathanB: For the record I join you in your demand. It is way past time.

David Brown

nathanb said...

What is lacking in our Bellevue is the same thing that is lacking in the SBC.

The silence from the leadership on issues that are destroying the church is amazing. The silence from our current deacon body is amazing.

Where is the accountability?

Where is the integrity in our leadership?

Why are there two sets of rules to live by depending on your position in life or amount of money you have?

It's time to wake up folks.

The Word of God is our guide. We don't need to hire consultants to do any more investigating to tell us what's right.

We don't need to hire any more parliamentarians to lead us down that path again.

If our church leaders don't know what's right, it's time to get new ones.

Why would anyone be drawn to our churches if this is how we are going to act?

Proverbs 12:22 said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Proverbs 12:22 said...

Frank Page came off as inept and we (the SBC) look like the biggest group of hypocrites ever. The sad thing is I agree with that assessment.

Liloleme,

I'm interested to know what IDC is planning too. I just scanned their site and saw where they posted the motions we never got to hear. Someone explain to me why those motions scared the church leadership so much that they were willing to appear unfair and mean-spirited in order to keep them from being presented.

A BBC minister told my husband their motions were divisive and hateful, so they had to stop the meeting before it got out-of-hand. After seeing them for myself I believe he couldn't have been more wrong. Was he misinformed or lying? Leadership made a foolish tactical error.

imaresistor said...

SOTL...said, "They just shrug their shoulders and run after SG so they can kiss his ring."

Reply: Oh my SOTL! How hysterical!!! Nobody but you would have thought of this one!!! o)

David Brown said...

Remember my earlier post tonight. Over 250,000 admitted, convicted PEDOPHILES state that they REGULARLY attend CHURCH.

As some so aptly pointed out, those stats apply only to the known ones.

And now we see this about the ministers. To the ones that suggested that Bellevue was not like those "other" churches and that our children were more safer there, shame on you.

Makes one wonder where can our children be safe?

David Brown

concernedSBCer said...

Proverbs said: "It looks like leadership made a foolish tactical error."

And we are surprised because????

sickofthelies said...

Nathan,

Child predators do not offend them. They don't care.

The next time someone tells you that they did not agree with the way that SG handled the PW thing, just ask them..." but yet you support him..."

The conclusion is that it's just not that big of a deal to them.

They yawn.

So What, they say.

Or, if you are like one SS teacher at BBC..." well, he only did it ONE time"...

See? it's no big deal..Nothin to see here folks, move along.

Be very suspicious of ANYONE who tells you that they didn't like the way it was handled, yet continue to support him..Their actions betray their words.

preacherdude777 said...

Goes to show ya that there are a lot of PW's in the churches & even more Steve Gaines' & gang to protect them. I am not sure how Steve thinks God is blessing him when he has sinned.

sickofthelies said...

David,

The person that said that we do not have that problem at BBC..I guess that I missed the stats that he was looking at where there was an astrick * that said:

" Does not occur in SBC churches"

imaresistor said...

David Brown said, "And now we see this about the ministers. To the ones that suggested that Bellevue was not like those "other" churches and that our children were more safer there, shame on you."

Reply: Actually, David, Bellevue wasn't like those 'other' churches. In reality, it was much, much worse.

LilOleMe said...

I am curious....is there a lawyer looking into the rights of the membership? what would they have to say?

sickofthelies said...

Guys,

Don't let them get away with SAYING that they didn't like the way that SG handled it but continue to support him.

These people need to be painted for what they are:

THEY ARE NOT OFFENDED BY CHILD SEXUAL PREDATORS!!!

If they were TRULY outraged, they would not support him.

They are ACCEPTING of his behavior.

If they were not accepting, he would be gone by now.

Don't let them get by with it. They need to be treated with suspicion and distrust.

Birds of a feather flock together.

sheeplessatbbc said...

Maybe it was meant for Steve Gaines, in all of his arrogance and inflated ego, to keep the confessed pedophile on staff for 6 months so the lid would be blown off all these hidden dirty little secrets.

Steve Gaines needs to pack his bags tonite and head off to New York City..take Jamie Parker with you!

All of you power hungry leaders that have aided and abetted Steve Gaines need to go...

How can any of you sleep at night, knowing you have participated in and approved of these crimes and continue to commit crimes by failing to abide by Tennessee State Law.

You all have mocked God and the family of Bellevue Baptist Church.

Lin said...

"Remember my earlier post tonight. Over 250,000 admitted, convicted PEDOPHILES state that they REGULARLY attend CHURCH."

David, I know that every child is different and age is a factor but are there any general type of behaviors that we should be looking for in children that have been molested?

preacherdude777 said...

I wonder how many Steves speaking engagements have been cancelled since the news broke of his "great leadership style" in handling PW and other things?
I will lose respect for any church or ministry that will have Steve or Donna speak on their behalf.

sickofthelies said...

I wonder if the same people that kiss SG's ring watched this show tonight and were they as apathetic towards THOSE victims as they were to CW?

LilOleMe said...

SG said:
"And I told 'em everything I thought they'd have to change, everything that we do right that they do wrong... I mean that. I came back and told Donna, I said, 'No way on God's green earth they'll want me now.'

This is where the pastor search committee made their first mistake: Know that he thought everything was wrong at BBC, and not inform the membership, so we could make an informed "vote".

sickofthelies said...

I wonder if the " He only did it once" BBC SS teacher said the same thing tonight about THOSE children.

I am outraged!

Proverbs 12:22 said...

SG didn't need to know any of man's law or previous experience to handle the pedophile situation properly. All he had to do was open the Bible to 1 Timothy 3 and Titus 1. If he truly believed the Bible is the authoritative Word of God, last June (and then again in early December) he would have known PW was disqualified for ministry based on the text. Instead he believed he knew better than God. For reasons yet unknown, God's standards were inconvenient for him, so he introduced theological error, thereby turning grace into licentousness. He used his own wisdom and brought shame on Bellevue and on himself that will never go away.

And the people turn a blind eye...SHAME!

sheeplessatbbc said...

Proverbs 12:22 said...

A BBC minister told my husband their motions were divisive and hateful, so they had to stop the meeting before it got out-of-hand. After seeing them for myself I believe he couldn't have been more wrong. Was he misinformed or lying? Leadership made a foolish tactical error.

10:20 PM, April 13, 2007


Proverbs,

If the minister that told your husband this was at the monkey-business meeting, he was lying.

If he got the information second hand from someone else that was there, they were lying.

Lies are the business of order of late. Every single person that spoke at the mike was totally respectful and none of the motions were divisive.

Leadership is afraid of TRUTH, plain & simple.

preacherdude777 said...

The ring kissers probably watched the show but didn't relate it to Steve & staff.



The above space is blank because I deleted what I put down. I didn't want to come across angry but that is what I am. Steve has drug this church down in the mud & I believe brought reproach on the Name Of Christ.

David Brown said...

Lin: That is hard to give a clear answer. I know in my case my grades suffered miserablly. I was suddenly withdrawn and did not trust authority figures.

As victims we put on the ole "happy" face to please the masses. We have a very hard time being transparent with others, in my case with my spouse. We allow people to get just so close to us and if they cross that line, we draw back. We want to control.

But so often as I did, we stick this horrible crime so far back in our minds so we can forget it. But as you heard tonight, these evil %#%$$$$ know how to pick out the vunerable ones.

Remember the pedophile said they can detect needs of these dear innocent children. The best thing a parent can do is be close and open with their children where they can feel comfortable in talking to you.

David Brown

Lin said...

proverbs, Don't forget that the pedophile would STILL be on staff except for the fact that he became a liability after the victim visted him. Only then did Gaines act.

Just a bit more insight into Gaines' Biblical character.

Proverbs 12:22 said...

SG won't tolerate deacons who challenge him in any respect (remember, he said he is not accountable to them), yet he allows pedophilia on staff.

Beam me up!

Do you think we will soon allow divorced men to become deacons? Based on his theology, I don't see how SG can make arguments against it with a straight face.

sickofthelies said...

proverbs said:

And the people turn a blind eye...SHAME!


Sotl says:

It's not that they just turn a blind eye...they SEE it..they just DON'T CARE.

Nothing is more important to them than their SG IV hookup.

People that still support SG need to be treated with disdain. They should be shunned. We should keep our children away from those who do not find child predators offensive!!!

Do you think that they would care if it was YOUR child that was molested?

NO!!

gmommylv said...

David,
Writing my letter to SBC now.

Nathanb,
You are assuming King Stevie loves the Lord...why?

I pray the Wrath of the Lord is released on him and the leadership.


(if anyone has a problem with that...tell the Lord on me...)

SOTL,
Total agreement....where is the outrage.
The world AND the church are desensitized to the cries of the weak and the wounded....

It is NOT unchartered waters.

There was a reason the SBC passed the purity for ministers ( NOT homosexuals Brian Miller)at least 5 years ago.
They were probably feeling guilty for their cover ups back then.

Plenty of time for the future Kings to see how to handle/ COVER sexual predators in the minister.

Maybe the victims in our church could have found their voices sooner..

DC better keep some of that 14 million "reserve" available to handle the fall out that WILL come because of the wickedness of BBC leadership.....
the silenced victims that we are aware of are just the beginning...

Lin said...

"The best thing a parent can do is be close and open with their children where they can feel comfortable in talking to you."

Amen! The hardest part in parenting is in the line between teaching them to respect authority yet not succombing to any abuse. What is appropriate and what is not.

However, I am drilling it into my child to follow Jesus first of all and to do that WE MUST know scripture! Too many false teachers out there to do any different.

alphasenior said...

Jason Tallent is leaving Bellevue. I believe Monday may his last official day. God bless him and his precious family.

Proverbs 12:22 said...

lin,

You've almost got it right. The truth is when the victim first visited SG he did NOTHING. Coombs report created the false impression that the pastor began to act after that meeting in early December with the victim. That is just plain false. When that meeting was over the sin was "under the blood." Case closed. He only reacted when he figured out the story was no longer a secret. He realized he had to do something 9-10 days after the meeting with the victim. Once the secret was out he went into full damage control mode. His reaction was all about protecting himself. It was never about doing the right (i.e. biblical) thing.

sickofthelies said...

WAY TO GO, JASON!!!

I KNEW you were better than the rest of them!! I could just sense it.

You have always been so kind to me, and there is something very different about you.

I wish you and your precious family all the best.

David Brown said...

GMOM and SOTL: I think you two know how proud I am out you both. You have blessed me.

Can we be harsh at times? Yes.
Do we get angry at times? Yes. Should we get away from the blog at times? Yes

But be silent? NO!!!! NEVER!!!!

We know it is like to be hurt as a child and it scares us to death to think that one more child could be hurt as we were.

Please to those that sit there and simply accept the lame excuses that the Senior Pastor and leadership have put forth, stand up and speak out. Demand more of them.

To remain silent is to put our chidren in harm's way.

David Brown

sheeplessatbbc said...

Preacherdude,

As soon as the investigative report came at maybe 3 or 4 churches immediately cancelled his engagements.

The report came out on Sun nite, I believe Steve was to preach in Alabama on Wed night & they cancelled it. You know he doesn't preach on Wed nights at Bellevue, because he has to spend some time with his family???!!!!

Steve Gaines is damaged goods and probably no one wants him but his partners in crime at Bellevue.

preacherdude777 said...

One of the things that is a burr in my saddle is that Steve said the he told the commitee everything that Bellevue did wrong & He did right. Let's see...We have a true Man of God in Dr. Rogers who was so filled by the Holy Spirit that he could read the sports section of the paper and people would get saved. BBC 30,000 members.
Steve Gaines...filled with ego, pride, lies...8000 members on a good day( and using the new math). What could he have been talking about???

Proverbs 12:22 said...

From SBC Outpost:

The 20/20 reporter made a great observation. Our SBC churches will kick a church out or a minister who is a homosexual. Then why can’t we do the same with predators?

preacherdude777 said...

Sleepless,

Thanks for the update. I

Proverbs 12:22 said...

Here are the IDC motions if anyone wants to see them. Sorry if I was the last one to learn they were posted.

IDC Motions #1

IDC Motions #2

sickofthelies said...

proverbs said:

The 20/20 reporter made a great observation. Our SBC churches will kick a church out or a minister who is a homosexual. Then why can’t we do the same with predators?

sotl says:

BECAUSE THOSE IN LEADERSHIP REALLY DON'T CARE. If they cared, they would do something.

I think that they get by with a wink and a nod from the SBC.

Maybe even an " atta boy"

These people are sick.

Anyone who just does not care that children are in harms way are sick, too.

AND YES, i mean YOU, the bbc ss "he only did it once" teacher.

SICK SICK SICK

Lin said...

proverbs, Thanks for pointing that out. Big difference, huh?

One thing about this whole incident is that there seems to be a lot of work being done by the leaders to create certain 'perceptions'. And it works... just as I thought the victim meeting with Gaines made him get rid of the pedophile.

But, it was because it became public.

Another 'perception' they tried to create is that the victim met with committee. The report was vague in that respect and led us to believe that the appropriate people had been interviewed.

So the lesson learned is: Watch what they do and ignore what they say.

nathanb said...

preacherdude777,

Try 6,500.

It's amazing how the numbers were used early on as a barometer but now, they are never mentioned.

One Sunday last month, we had 5,300 total for both services.
It was spring break but this is way below the 10,000 average we had when Steve Gaines started out at Bellevue.

Tim said...

It is absolutely disgusting that the SBC allows these men to roam from one church to another. This is not that difficult to stop.

Why on earth would a SBC church not want to report to the SBC any minister that is guilty of such a horrid thing? Why on earth would the SBC not invest a few dollars in a data base so that churches could easily conduct a back ground check before hiring?

Why on earth do the people of Bellevue Baptist Church believe that the decision that was made to cover this crime for over six months is not severe enough to relieve a the minister that did such a thing from his duties?

Lord help us, we have a responsibility to the children of the church. These children are growing up in a supposed Christian environment. Can we not at least provide protection from sexual predators to them? Can we not at least set a strong example concerning how severly wrong covering a sin of this nature is?

In case you are not aware, Steve Gaines to this day believes that he handled this properly. He never uttered a word of apology for his unGodly lack of action.

How on earth can anyone support this man knowing that he not only overlooked but activly hid this sin from the entire congregation? I can assure you that this is not the attitude of a Godly Spirit-Filled man, it is the attitude of a man in complete spiritual darkness.

Lin said...

BECAUSE THOSE IN LEADERSHIP REALLY DON'T CARE. If they cared, they would do something."

SOTL, I have to disagree. I think they care a lot. They care about their image. Their ambitions. The bad publicity. The spin. The money. The building. The numbers. The blog.

sickofthelies said...

Nathan,

That's because his words ring hollow.

Proverbs 12:22 said...

lin,

The really sad thing is the average church member does not know these things. They are not searching out the truth for themselves. We are drowing in the Apathetic Sea.

gmommylv said...

Proverbs,
Your words(unintentionally) brought to my mind another answer to LIN's question....
I was told I was damaged goods and no one would want me...

I swung from extreme people pleasing to deep depression. I escaped to a safe place in my mind ....spent hours and hours pretending the happy life I would give to my daughter someday. I lost years that should have been filled with childhood memories of innocent fun...and safety.

Please remember PW was not just a predator to children.
BBC thought nothing of the way he preyed on the wounded.

The weak,vulnerable, and wounded....the wolf smells his prey.

sickofthelies said...

Tim,

What scares me is that if the same situation comes to light again, SG will most likely handle it the same way.

He'll try to hide it as long as he can. He doesn't seem to be able to stay out of trouble for long.

He doesn't learn.

He thinks that the world revolves around him.

What will the ring kissers say when it's one of THEIR children the next time?

Will it be quite so casual?

Will they STILL say:

" he only did it one time" when it's THEIR child????

preacherdude777 said...

Nathan,

Thanks for the numbers but I should have made myself more clear. I meant when Steve was interviewing for the job he said he told the committee "just to tick them off" what Bellevue did wrong and what Gardendale did right. That is what I was talking about.
You did provide info that I have been wondering about.

Lin said...

"Please remember PW was not just a predator to children.
BBC thought nothing of the way he preyed on the wounded."

There is really no way to measure damage that has been done. It may take years. Imagine the kid whose parents are totally pro Gaines. Think that kid would dare mention anything that may have happened or even had been amiss? Because all they are hearing is that those mean people will not forgive Gaines! (Which has NOTHING to do wiht being qualified to be a minister)

Even kids who do not have any abuse are being sent a message: The pastor protects pedophiles. All you have to say is 'sorry'. Hopefully these chidren will one day really study scripture and see that our Lord taught that they are not qualifed to be elders in the Body of Christ.

nathanb said...

preacherdude777,

No problem.

The "tick them off" comment really bothers me because the committee really let us down and didn't do their job.

If SG said this, they should have let us know before we had the chance to vote on him.

I would like to know what changes are still in store for us. It's not going to be pretty.

sheeplessatbbc said...

gmommylv said...

Please remember PW was not just a predator to children.
BBC thought nothing of the way he preyed on the wounded.

Response:

And Steve Gaines had the audacity to stand in front of us and tell us he didn't really know what PW's job duties were!

Remeber Steve is a control freak, he knew exactly what PW did and continued to put Bellevues children at harm for 6 months.

LIES, LIES, LIES AND LIES ABOUT THE LIES!!!!!!!!

preacherdude777 said...

Why would a "man of God" want to tick off any one when they come seeking a new Pastor???
That should have been a big red flag.
A godly, holy, man of God would have prayed, fasted if necessary, to seek the face and will of God in the matter. Why would he even say no to the offer without even praying about it???
Speaks volumes to the lack of character in this man.

Proverbs 12:22 said...

Sheepless,

Irony of ironies, when SG first came to BBC, PW was the one appointed to introduce him to the staff and help him get integrated into the flow of the church. Perhaps PW forgot to introduce himself.

Proverbs 12:22 said...

Preacherdude,

You are exactly right! I can't believe he is wiling to admit he put out a fleece.

"Is it okay to "put out the fleece" to know God's will, like Gideon did in Judges 6:36-40?

"Gideon is listed as one of the heroes of the faith ( Hebrews 11:32 ), and he "put out the fleece," not only once, but twice! However, before we follow Gideon's example, we should take a closer look at some of the specific circumstances in his case, and then consider what other Scripture passages say about looking for a sign from the Lord.

"Considering the dangerous and frightening nature of the angel's instructions, it is easy to understand Gideon's weakness of faith and his desire for further confirmation. But, even though we can sympathize with his fears, Gideon himself realized that he was risking God's anger when he asked for further signs ( Judges 6:39 ). In light of Gideon's trepidation in the face of such a seemingly impossible task, God graciously granted him the further signs he requested. However, this shouldn't be taken as an indication that God normally approves of such a method for confirming His will ( James 1:5-8 ).

"Scripture elsewhere clearly warns against asking for such signs. The Old Testament law itself prohibited putting God to the test ( Deuteronomy 6:16 ), and this specific principle was confirmed by Jesus when He was tempted by Satan in the wilderness ( Luke 4:12 ). In 1 Corinthians 10:9, the apostle Paul pointed to severe consequences that resulted from such doubt ( Numbers 21:6 ), and Luke describes how the father of John the Baptist was struck mute ( Luke 1:18-20 ) for doubting the message of an angel.

"Of course, it is important to define what a person means when they say that they are "putting out the fleece." If they are demanding, like Gideon, that God give them immediate guidance by fulfilling a specific "sign" that they impose on Him, they are putting God to the test in a way that is forbidden.

"Like sorcerers and occultists who try to control supernatural forces through spells and incantations, we may think we can control God with such demands. But our heavenly Father has no interest in making His supernatural power accessible to our whims. His goal is for us to know Him personally, in a relationship founded and dependent upon faith ( Proverbs 3:5-8 )."

Dan Vander Lugt

sheeplessatbbc said...

Proverbs,

Isn't it amazing how our sins find us out. The things that come out of his mouth are unbelievable.

sickofthelies said...

And yet, the gullible continue to follow the Pied Piper.

Proverbs 12:22 said...

Sheepless,

AMEN!


More on putting out the fleece here:

Put out the fleece

preacherdude777 said...

Well said Proverbs 12:22.

I would absolutely be horrorfied if I did and said the things he said in and out of the pulpit. He will have to give an account to God for that. Preachers are held to a higher standard.

gmommylv said...

I know my open wounds are making a mess tonight and I do apologize .

For those of you not familiar with evil...
(I am so happy you are out there)

my experience has taught me that just as they smell their prey,

They also sense their own kind.

Covering up sexual sin and perversion for others is a big bloody red flag ...

sickofthelies said...

gmom

I have often wondered why SG was so " tolerant" of the crimes perpetrated by PW. I have wondered why he felt " compassion" for a man that would do something like that.

What is SG hiding from the congregation that has not been revealed?

I pray that God will shine the light on his sin.

I predict that when that happens, it's going to be like 1979 and 1980 , when you couldn't find a ONE person who voted for Jimmy Carter for president.

preacherdude777 said...

SOTL,

That is funny yet true. I am ashamed to say that I voted for SG eventhough I had a big check in my spirit. I didn't know much about the "dictator" but I didn't like him being shoved down my throat. Everything was so secretive them boom...here he is. Now vote. I wasn't man enough to be the lone NO vote. I am ashamed.

Proverbs 12:22 said...

I must point out that Prayer Fleeces, like Prayer Cloths, have long been among the trinkets peddled by shady everyday-is-a-bad-hairday pentecostal preachers on television.

sheeplessatbbc said...

The following is taken verbatim from the Bellevue Messenger Sept 05

Read & see how this lines up with the Gardendale speech..Not

September 2005

Meet Steve & Donna
A Moving Experience
Ever Obedient to God's call, Steve and Donna Gaines have always been willing to follow when God moves---even when it means moving themselves.

Early one Saturday morning under the shade of trees that huddle around the lake reflecting Bellevue's grand front portico, Steve Gaines opened his One Year Bible to the daily reading for May 14.
"Then the angel of the Lord came and sat under the oak...the reading from Judges 6 began. Steve listened as God was about to speak, yes, to Gideon, but also to him.

Bellevue's Pastor Search committee had already contacted Steve months earlier. But God had not moved his heart at that time. The time was not yet ripe. But on this May morning as the Gaines family were in Memphis preparing to attend son Grant's graduation from Union University, God was about to speak to Steve as he slipped away to Bellevue's lake and began his morning devotion.

"And the angel of the Lord appeared to him and said to him, "The Lord is with you, O valiant warrior," the Scriptures continued. And then God moved.

"As I continued to pray, Steve said. "I looked up and saw Bellevue. I knew God was speaking." Steve knew God was moving--moving in his heart and moving his family to Memphis, to Bellevue. At that time, only God, Steve, and then Donna knew. Then they waited for God to move again. It didn't take long.

In just a few weeks, Bellevue's Pastor Search Committee contacted Steve again. This time he had received his word from God. The rest is Bellevue history.

Lin said...

I must point out that Prayer Fleeces, like Prayer Cloths, have long been among the trinkets peddled by shady everyday-is-a-bad-hairday pentecostal preachers on television.

11:43 PM, April 13, 2007

thanks a lot! I just spewed Green Tea all over my screen. LOL!!!

sickofthelies said...

I once bought an aerosol can of
Revernd Ike's Spray Blessings at Big Lots.

I had to buy it because I knew that no one would believe me.

Wish I had it now. I woudl take it to BBC and spray it all over that place.

preacherdude777 said...

Don't give Steve any ideas. He may be coming out with is own line of "spiritual blessing" products.

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