Friday, May 04, 2007

Unfinished Business


Here is the two-part motion that was on the floor when the March 25th "business" meeting was abruptly adjourned. What about either part of this motion was so objectionable that the meeting would have to be shut down?

Motion for Quarterly Business Meetings
Mr. Chairman, Bellevue leadership, I want to express my sincere gratitude for the effort you have made to have an open line of communication between yourselves and the Bellevue congregation. There are obviously many positives that will come out of this openness between the leadership and the congregation of Bellevue. With that said I move to begin having quarterly business meetings on any Sunday night of the last month of each quarter.
Motion on the Sexual Integrity of Ministers
I move that Bellevue Baptist Church affirm and adopt as its own, the June 2002 resolution of the Southern Baptist Convention entitled On The Sexual Integrity Of Ministers, as stated below, and the scriptural basis upon which the resolution stands.

Watch the proceedings.
Remember to sign the Petition to Call Bellevue Baptist Church into an Open Business Meeting and forward the link to your fellow Bellevue members.

427 comments:

1 – 200 of 427   Newer›   Newest»
32yrs@bbc said...

My family chose not to be at the business meeting. We relied on those we know on both sides of this issue to give their take. After reading the minutes, (for some reason I cannot download YouTube), I understand the frustration and dismay voiced by many. The motion to adjourn the meeting came at a very critical time and seems to me to be more than obvious that it was a successful attempt to reject Josh Manning's motion. It is vital that the membership have full trust in their spiritual leaders and that trust has been broken over and over. People are weary of spin and manipulation because we deal with that on a daily basis in the world. Someone said "When the church invites in the world culture, why are we suprised when it acts like the world?"

concernedSBCer said...

32: One thing that shocks me is that many in the membership saw nothing wrong with the way it was ended. No clue at all.

No wonder they have been so easily deceived.....

SargeantCarter said...

Attention:

Bellevue's State Charter states...

Due notice of any election must be given by advertisment in a newspaper, personel notice to the members, or a day stated on the minutes of the Board Of Directors six months preceding the election.

This can be found on savingbellevue.com

This statement "trumps" everything.

12:51 PM, May 04, 2007

32yrs@bbc said...

Amy (in reference to the other thread), thank you for the loving assurance. I needed that encouragement. We have commitments through this month but
will visit GBC this summer. I know that you and the other members can feel our pain having gone thru something very similar not too long ago. And now we hurting sheep at BBC have an understanding of what you all went thru. Reminds me of II Cor. 1:3,4 "Blessed be God, even the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of mercies, and the God of ALL comfort, Who comforts us in our tribulation, THAT we may be able to comfort them who are in any trouble, by the comfort with which we ourselves
are comforted of God." Amen and amen.

Again - thank you! :-)

Karen said...

To anyone who was offended by my "big brother" comment on the last thread, I apologize.

32,

GBC has been nothing but nice to the "BBC refugees". My mom is now singing in the choir and my dad was asked to be a guest usher. You KNOW he's loving that!

I've also been wondering and worrying about a "BBC takeover" at GBC, but it seems not to have happened. I think the BBC folks who have joined or have become serial visitors to GBC have been very careful as to not take over what's in place at GBC. GBC has wonderful people and I really like visiting there.

karen

32yrs@bbc said...

Karen: Thanks to you, too, for the encouragement.:-) Yep, I know your dad is content if he's back ushering and greeting people.

Concernedsbcer: Don't know if you are a Bellevue member but being at Bellevue has been a soft nest and it is very difficult to give that up. It truly was "A friend of the family, and a family of friends." There are some who would rather ignore the obvious than risk their nest being disturbed. They truly want to believe that everything is just as wonderful as they are being told it is. I remember Dr. R's message on the eagle and how the mother eagle disturbs the nest so that the eaglets will leave their comfort zone, stretch their wings and learn to fly. God does that with His own sometimes. He stirs up our nest to force us to stretch our spiritual wings and try something new, and "soar" with Him wherever He leads us. He may be leading some to stay and "fight the good fight of faith" behind the scenes. The Lord will show each of us what He would have us to do if we will keep our eyes upon Him - the Author and Finisher of our faith.

New BBC Open Forum said...

Regarding the May 6th BellevueToday in which Jamie Parker was listed as both Minister of Music and Minister of Instrumental Music, that was indeed a typo. They temporarily removed it from the website to make the correction and have now put the corrected version back up.

However, the bulletins had already been sent to the printers before the mistake was discovered (apparently thanks to you bloggers), so rather than going to the expense of reprinting them because of one error, the printed versions Sunday will still contain the error. They say it will be corrected in next week's volume.

In the future, any time you see what looks like an error on Bellevue's site, you can send a message to webmaster@bellevue.org. You may also call him at 347-5423. Sometimes a mistake is just that... a mistake.

Now, the change in date of the "special" business meeting from May 6th to May 20th may very well be something more, but at least it looks like CT's job is indeed still secure. That would be an effective, if not very kind, way of letting someone know his services were no longer needed though!

ezekiel said...

Churchmouse,

Yes, we are just like Israel of the OT. In fact, we are Israel.....God's people...at least we profess to be. And we make the same mistakes they did. Turn to idols. The idols may not be a pure gold calf but they are idols the just the same. As I read the OT, it becomes apparent to me that everything that happened to the nation of Israel before Christ came the first time is happening to the people of Israel before he comes the second time.

The serpents to the people in the wilderness, satan to Job, philistines in Cannan, false prophets and poor leaders were all affliction that God sent to judge His people and get them to turn back to Him. The climax was judgement of the House of Israel, Judah and Jerusalem.

Then God did an unimaginable thing. He sent his son to tell us how he wanted us to live and worship Him. Then walked Him to the cross and killed him for a one time sacrifice for our sins. Clean slate....washed in His blood and clothed in His righteousnes, debt free.

So we could continue in sin? So we could turn to idols as the nation of Isreal did? So we can hate our neighbor, steal, kill, lie, abuse our children? God forbid! We profane his name every time we commit sin and call ourselves christians.

Judgement is coming. It is already here. How much affliction do we have to suffer before we turn back to Him? Judgement is again beginning with the house of the Lord. If the OT prophets are right, and I think they are, things are just going to get worse and worse all the way up to the final judgement in REVELATIONS

Everything is in the book for a reason. Just because Babylon is dust today doesn't mean that Babylon won't fall again. Remember....Everything is a parable. Jesus, The WORD liked using them. That is just so Christians know what is happening. We read Him and the Holy Spirit shows us the meaning of the parable. JMO

oc said...

Ezekiel said,
Then God did an unimaginable thing. He sent his son to tell us how he wanted us to live and worship Him. Then walked Him to the cross and killed him for a one time sacrifice for our sins. Clean slate....washed in His blood and clothed in His righteousnes, debt free.

REPLY: No. You killed Him. I killed Him. We killed Him.

oc said...

And by the way, Ezekiel, that's not the end of the story.

HE LIVES.

gmommylv said...

Lindon posted once that God was the one that killed Jesus....Lin,did I remember that correctly????
I actually had never heard that said before.
I have been processing that .
Now, OC and Ezekeil are bringing this up....let's discuss.

ezekiel said...

OC,

Abraham, Isaac, the Ram God....Father....Son.

Atonement for our sins required a sacrifice and God made that sacrifice with his son. For me and for you.

"REPLY: No. You killed Him. I killed Him. We killed Him."

I guess we could call this a circular argument....one that I will not engage with you. Saying it the way you say it...implies that I or we do sin and that is what killed Jesus. Does that mean that if I continue to sin that I kill Him again? Paul disagrees.

Kinda takes the sovranty out of it for me. Rather God is in control, and nothing happens that He doesn't make happen...And He sacrificed His son for me and you, us. Sort of explains to me how angry He would be with me if I kept intentionally sinning as well.

Just my point of view....it lines up with scripture better for me that way. Not saying you are wrong or your way of looking at it is any less applicable.

And Yes, He lives. And He is coming back some day, Hosea, Joel or Amos tells us it will be a dark and cloudy day. Tells us woe is the man looking forward to His coming....I will quote it when I find it. Read it just this morning.

oc said...

Ezekiel said,
I guess we could call this a circular argument....one that I will not engage with you. Saying it the way you say it...implies that I or we do sin and that is what killed Jesus. Does that mean that if I continue to sin that I kill Him again? Paul disagrees.

REPLY: It's no circular argument. It is a fact. If it wasn't for sin, there would be no death, ours nor Jesus'. As far as 'killing Him again', we both know it was once and for all. Quit trying to be cute with me.

oc said...

By the way, Ezekiel, quote things in context. Don't doctor it up so it looks good for you. (see your 4:52 post.) That is dishonest, don't you think?

OC.

westtnbarrister said...

Romans 8:32 He who did not spare His own Son, but delivered Him over (or "delivered him up") for us all, how will He not also with Him freely give us all things?

Theologically, we see how much God is for us precisely through understanding the Father's involvement in our redemption. These words in Romans 8:32 remind us of the involvement, the activity of the Father in our Salvation, and even his agency in the death of his own beloved Son (He, the Father, did not spare, He, the Father, delivered him up).

Paul's emphasis here is on the love and activity of God the Father in the delivering up of his own Son. Without in any way minimizing the love and activity of Jesus on the cross, Paul is pointing us to the Father's activity. Yes Jesus acts for us on the cross, but that is not the emphasis here. Paul's focus is on the redeeming love of God the Father displayed in his giving up, delivering over, handing over of his Son. The Father, Paul says, is the one who does not spare His own Son. It is the Father's action which is on the Apostle's mind.

This is important because of misconceptions we have about the nature God the Father and his role in redemption, and because of misunderstandings we have about what Jesus was doing on the cross. Sometimes our whole picture of God the Father is all wrong, as if our salvation was wrested grudgingly from a reluctant deity, as if Christ had to persuade God the Father to love His people. As if Jesus were pleading for the Father to become involved and to love and to spare us, through this death.

But that is not the picture Paul paints here. No, says Paul, it all began with the Father's love. He initiated, he loved, he sent, he helped, he encouraged, and, in the final analysis, it is the Father who is acting on the cross. I am not saying that the Son was not acting on the Cross (nor am I espousing some sort of patripassianism), but so often the Biblical emphasis is on the work of the Father on the cross. John 3:16; Acts 2:23; Isaiah 53:10. The focus, in other words, is on the priesthood of God the Father.

The NT emphasizes this regularly regarding Jesus's death. Consider: 1. Jesus says he will be delivered up (Matt 26:2), that Judas will deliver him up (Matt 10:4), but in the final analysis, Matthew indicates that it is the Father who delivers him up (cf. Matt 27:46, Rom 8:32).

2. Peter never forgets this. He never forgets the sovereignty of God in the death of Christ and emphasizes it in his Gospel preaching (Acts 2:23). Peter explicitly asserts the activity of the father in Jesus's death - a death according to predetermined divine plan.

Acts 2:23 this Man, delivered over by the predetermined plan and foreknowledge of God, you nailed to a cross by the hands of godless men and put Him to death.

3. The early church understood this too, and it profoundly impacted and was explicitly manifested in their prayer. they acknowledged God's activity in the crucifixion of Jesus.

Acts 4:27-28 "For truly in this city there were gathered together against Your holy servant Jesus, whom You anointed, both Herod and Pontius Pilate, along with the Gentiles and the peoples of Israel, 28 to do whatever Your hand and Your purpose predestined to occur.

And note the explicit NT emphasis on the positive action of God the Father, not just the negative action (the allowing), but the cost-positive action of God the Father. "He made Him who knew no sin to be sin" (2 Corinthians 5:21) It is not simply that the Father abandoned Him to dereliction and curse. It is the Father who is bruising the Son, as Isaiah had prophesied (Is. 53).

Lin said...

"Then walked Him to the cross and killed him for a one time sacrifice for our sins."

No. You killed Him. I killed Him. We killed Him."

Reply: How else could it have happened? God is totally Sovereign. Jesus is God. Jesus existed before the foundation of the World. Why are prophecies about the 1st and 2nd Coming all through the OT?

Jesus is in Genesis:

Genesis 1

In the beginning, God created the heavens and the earth. 2The earth was without form and void, and darkness was over the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God was hovering over the face of the waters.

The Hebrew word for 'God' is actually plural. See Matthew Henry:
"(2.) The author and cause of this great work—GOD. The Hebrew word is Elohim, which bespeaks, .... The plurality of persons in the Godhead, Father, Son, and Holy Ghost. This plural name of God, in Hebrew, which speaks of him as many though he is one,..."

Here is another one:

Isaiah 6

8And I heard the voice of the Lord saying, "Whom shall I send, and who will go for us?"

The 'us' in this verse is the "Godhead".

There are many more but I hope you get the point. God is perfect Justice so instead of just letting us off for sin...HE took the punishment for us. Who wants a judge that lets people off for crimes? Justice was demanded and because of HIS MERCY..He became our propitiation.

Jesus was man and God. On the cross, HE took on the full wrath of God. He experienced it for us. that is why HE said....

It is FINISHED!!

It all took place according to HIS PLAN. I get chills just thinking about it. Praise HIS HOLY NAME.

oc said...

Of course God offered His Son, but the point is that it would have never been needed if not for sin. And sin is in us, not Him.

Lin said...

Wow, as you can see by EZ and Westbarrister posts, there is SO much to this question! I forgot about Romans 8!

Please do not get angry...let us study the Word and let the Word teach us!! Let us all be as the Bereans.

Grace and Peace.

Lin said...

"Of course God offered His Son, but the point is that it would have never been needed if not for sin. And sin is in us, not Him. "

Do you think God KNEW Adam and Eve would sin? Just curious...this is NOT a trick question.

oc said...

Westtnbarrister,

Who is arguing against that? God is sovereign. Of course man didn't force God's hand. God gave His Son. (John 3:16). Freely. My point is that it would have never been necessary except because of sin.

gmommylv said...

Lin....that sounds like a trick question...
so explain why you are asking that..???

oc said...

Lin said,
Do you think God KNEW Adam and Eve would sin? Just curious...this is NOT a trick question.


Of course He did.

Lin said...

Lin said,
Do you think God KNEW Adam and Eve would sin? Just curious...this is NOT a trick question.


Of course He did.

5:57 PM, May 04, 2007

I agree because He is totally Sovereign.


Another question I found very interesting is why God created man in the first place. I think the answer to that is the answer to this whole issue.

allofgrace said...

God did indeed offer up his own Son. Christ's death on the cross was to propitiate the wrath of God against our sin...to satisfy His justice...just as He provided the lamb for Abraham in Isaac's stead, so He offered up Christ in our stead. God purposed to save from all eternity..it wasn't an afterthought, or a plan B after the fall...He purposed to save a people for Himself through a redeemer..the LORD Jesus Christ...and that redemption required His blood.

oc said...

Lin, AOG,

AMEN!!!!

oc said...

Lin said,
Another question I found very interesting is why God created man in the first place. I think the answer to that is the answer to this whole issue.

I bet you know the answer. It is because He loves. Not that He needs to, but that He wants to. That is why it is so wonderful.

Lin said...

"Lin....that sounds like a trick question...
so explain why you are asking that..??? "

I am reluctant to discuss it here...but I know that I used to have a very wrong view of God as some sort of kindly Grandfather. I now believe that everything God has done and will do is for HIS OWN GLORY. And that includes allowing the serpant to deceive Adam and Eve and 'allowing' sin and evil.

He is perfect Holiness. There is NO sin in Him. No evil. He allows it.

Here is a verse that may seem off topic but it really isn't. It is about allowing evil in the church. I was reading this the other night and cannot get it off my mind:

Jude 1:(ESV)

" Beloved, while I was very diligent to write to you concerning our common salvation, I found it necessary to write to you exhorting you to contend earnestly for the faith which was once for all delivered to the saints. 4 For certain men have crept in unnoticed, who long ago were marked out for this condemnation, ungodly men, who turn the grace of our God into lewdness and deny the only Lord God and our Lord Jesus Christ."

This verse is saying that there are people ..."who long ago were designated for this condemnation"

Think of the meaning of this! God allows this...they are people 'marked for condemnation' long ago. He did not say...save them...HE is telling them to CONTEND for the FAITH despite them!!

Read the whole book of Jude. It is an eye opener about false teachers.

I pray that if I am wrong about these verses, the Lord will set me right and punish me for writing this!

Lin said...

Lin said,
Another question I found very interesting is why God created man in the first place. I think the answer to that is the answer to this whole issue.

I bet you know the answer. It is because He loves. Not that He needs to, but that He wants to. That is why it is so wonderful.

6:14 PM, May 04, 2007

We are going to disagree here because I think 'love' is only half the answer.

The full answer is that He created us to Glorify Him and to SHOW His Glory through His Saints.

Again, I pray that if I am wrong, I will be rebuked.

oc said...

Lin said,
We are going to disagree here because I think 'love' is only half the answer.

The full answer is that He created us to Glorify Him and to SHOW His Glory through His Saints.

REPLY: Isn't that love?

Lin said...

OC, Friend, I am always leery of the word 'love' these days. We have so perverted it's meaning that I am reluctant to use it anymore.

God is LOVE. God is WRATH. God is MERCY. God is JUSTICE.

If we mean love in a 'God Centered' way and not a 'man centered' way, then I would agree.

Grace and Peace. (offline)

oc said...

Lin,

I understand you being 'leery' of the word 'love' being thrown around. But I don't mean it like the world. We are in agreement, my friend, because love is initiated from God, perpetuated by God, and is finished in God. Man would know no love except God allow it and initiate it.

Just my unhumble opinion, OC.

maybejustmaybe said...

Now, don't y'all drop your teeth at what I'm about to say -- but thank you for these posts and this particular discussion. Very good stuff.

concernedSBCer said...

Sorry, MJM....teeth fell out when jaw dropped. ;)

It has been a good discussion.

maybejustmaybe said...

Concerned,

Keep tongue firmly in cheek at all times. Helps hold teeth in.

:) MJM

concernedSBCer said...

MJM: THanks for the great advice! I'll remember that!

:)

westtnbarrister said...

oc said...
Westtnbarrister,

Who is arguing against that? God is sovereign. Of course man didn't force God's hand. God gave His Son. (John 3:16). Freely. My point is that it would have never been necessary except because of sin.

5:48 PM, May 04, 2007


I don't know that anyone was arguing against that. I was just throwing my two cents in, not arguing. I won't bother next time. However, to me the point I made was much less obvious than the fact Jesus death was necessitated by our sin. If anyone reading this blog does not know that God is holy and we are sinners, born of the corrupted seed of Adam, then they probably do not need to concern themselves with my post.

Why so combative?

oc said...

westtnbarrister,

Brother, I think we are saying the same thing. I didn't think you were arguing with me. Please forgive me for seeming combative.I wasn't fighting you. Sometimes I really get too excited about some things, and I come across wrong. I did it again tonight. Forgive me, brother.
Still trying to walk the walk. Stumbling a bit.

OC

allofgrace said...

lin,
God created all things for His own glory. You are right on. "For of Him, through Him, and to Him are all things." The first question in the Westminster catechism..and many Baptist catechisms as well is this: "What is the chief end of man?" Answer: To glorify God and enjoy Him forever."

oc said...

AOG said. What is the chief end of man?" Answer: To glorify God and enjoy Him forever."

I have that written on the first page of my Bible. Means alot to me.Thanks for the reminder.

OC

ezekiel said...

"And Yes, He lives. And He is coming back some day, Hosea, Joel or Amos tells us it will be a dark and cloudy day. Tells us woe is the man looking forward to His coming....I will quote it when I find it. Read it just this morning."

Amos 5:18 Woe unto you that desire the day of the LORD! to what end [is] it for you? the day of the LORD [is] darkness, and not light.

Ever hear anyone saying "come Lord Jesus"?

westtnbarrister said...

OC,

No problem, brother. It's forgotten.

gmommylv said...

Yeah....we are going to "out" our blog admin....(IF we knew who he/she was)...we have stupid on our foreheads!

oc said...

westtnbarrister,

Thankyou. Means alot to me.

Lily said...

It has been a blessing to luck on this particular part of the blog today. Thank you to those posters who are scripturally sound!

sickofthelies said...

I think it's a man from Minnesota, who was a member of BBC about 15 years ago.

Lily said...

P.S. 'luck' should haave been 'lurk'.

Lin said...

"The first question in the Westminster catechism..and many Baptist catechisms as well is this: "What is the chief end of man?" Answer: To glorify God and enjoy Him forever."

I have the Baptist Catechism (1859?) in song on CD for my daughter. Am singing that particular one in my head right now. As a matter of fact, for those of us who did not grow up memorizing a catechism it is a great way to learn it because it is easier!

OC, Thanks for a great discussion. Blessings to you.

allofgrace said...

lin,
Not sure which catechism you're referring to..there are several Baptist Catechisms...Benjamin Keach wrote one which I have printed off somewhere..you can find it online...Spurgeon wrote one...the Charleston Association had one...and you're right...they're useful teaching/learning tools.

Lin said...

EZ Amos 5:18 Woe unto you that desire the day of the LORD! to what end [is] it for you? the day of the LORD [is] darkness, and not light.

Ever hear anyone saying "come Lord Jesus"? "

Yikes, I say 'Maranatha' all the time. But what about the Doctrine of Assurance and Perseverence of the Saints? Won't His coming be a relief to the Saints?

Lin said...

"the Charleston Association"

That's the one! A professor at SBTS put this to song and made a CD. He did it to help his children learn it.

concernedSBCer said...

Lin: Absolutely His coming will be a relief to the Saints! I can't wait!!!

gmommylv said...

Lin,
You have a complicated...or stupid...email from me.

oc said...

Lin said,
OC, Thanks for a great discussion. Blessings to you.

REPLY: No Lin, thankyou. You have been a blessing to all of us.

Lin said...

gmommylv "You have a complicated...or stupid...email from me."

And you have an even more complicated and stupider reply. :o)

Oc, you are going to make me cry. Isn't God Good!!!

Concerned: I cannot wait, either. I read Revelations 21 again recently...the descriptions of the New Heaven and Earth in it are so beautiful.

gmommylv said...

Where is Trollcakes?????

allofgrace said...

lin,
Benjamin Keach was one of the signers of the 1689 LBC.

Lin said...

"Benjamin Keach was one of the signers of the 1689 LBC."

I am not familiar with Keach. I would also be very interested in reading Spurgeon's Catechism. I did not know he wrote one. I am going to look that up. (I hope it is in the Spurgeon Archive)

I am really starting to love Spurgeon. I recently read about his role in the 'down grade' controversy in Truth Wars. Amazing parallels to today.

(offline)

Lin said...

Trollcates? I wish he would visit us! At least check in now and then.

g'nite all.

oc said...

westtnbarrister.


email me please.

Churchmouse said...

Last night I attended an event in the Bellevue sanctuary. We had not been in the church since last October. I grabbed my old parking spot and entered the northwest end of the building. The corridors were filled with booths celebrating the Missions Fair. In the West Foyer, the fringes of a crowd of younger people spilled in and out of one of the fireside rooms. The young people dressed in evening wear were surrounded with the sounds of beating music and the smell of rich food. Along the next corridor were more booths. As I approached the Grand Foyer, a photo in one of the booths jumped out at me. It was the LWF booth, small like the others. It had a photo of Dr. Rogers, taken while he was preaching. His hand was in the air and his thumb and forefinger were pressed together as he made a point. I could not take my eyes off of that hand.On the table was a leaflet with the words. “Where will you be when you get where you are going?” My throat tightened until I could hardly breathe. On into the sanctuary, I noted that the choir loft that once seated 300 was now only four rows deep and not nearly as wide. I wondered if this is the “norm”. The sanctuary orchestra was present for the event. It was composed of young people that I remembered from Wednesday night children’s choir a few years ago. Sitting among them was “Ace” from the blog. After the event ended, I greeted two old friends who were talking in the isle. One asked me, “Where are you attending church?” I could not even speak. I hope she understood.

concernedSBCer said...

I miss Cakes too.

My heart breaks for the changes at BBC. I pray for you all daily.

oc said...

Sheepless said,
Cakes,

We need some lightenin' up, please come back.


Reply: You got lightnin', ....me, OC. And maybe a little thunder, too. :)

Seriously, we all miss Cakes. Come back soon, friend.

ezekiel said...

lin,

"EZ Amos 5:18 Woe unto you that desire the day of the LORD! to what end [is] it for you? the day of the LORD [is] darkness, and not light.

Ever hear anyone saying "come Lord Jesus"? "

Yikes, I say 'Maranatha' all the time. But what about the Doctrine of Assurance and Perseverence of the Saints? Won't His coming be a relief to the Saints?"

Lin, I I think the saints are going to persevere and I think the saints are assured salvation.

BUT...

See Romans 2:28-29. Circumcision is that of the heart. That is what makes you a Jew.

Then look at Romans 2:7-10. Looks like we are judged by our works. We can be assured of salvation, perseverence of the saints and still will be judged by works.

See also OB 1:15-16
Joel 1:15
Jer 9:25-26, 4:4
Isaiah 66:15-16

Yikes is the word....

gmommylv said...

Churchmouse,
Thanks for that post.....I didn't get from you that you thought it was "beautiful". What were the feelings that came from what you saw?? I heard sadness or...where is my church??
Please share more.

sheeplessatbbc said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
concernedSBCer said...

I am so glad everyone is enjoying this beautiful day. Hope it's been fun for everyone! Unless of course you've been doing yard work..........

Churchmouse said...

gmommylv,
It was a bittersweet evening. We have so much to be thankful for, despite the "loss" of our church. At least God has allowed us to see the truth.

gmommylv said...

Churchmouse,
I agree. It is a blessing that we see the truth.

gopher said...

As the CEP is always away during the week, so no one would miss them if they went missing, did anyone know about their infirmity this week?

Churchmouse said...

What infirmity?

New BBC Open Forum said...

gopher,

If you're talking about the rumor about Steve Gaines being in the hospital this week, (1) yes, I heard it, and (2) no, I don't know if it's true. All I heard was he had a stomach virus and had to miss this week's Morning Manna.

Churchmouse said...

I think someone said he wasn't preaching Sunday. I am not sure where that came from. Maybe the conversation about the next week's Bellevue Today?

lovecakes said...

Tashi Delek, truthseekers (and y'all that berate them)--I haven't left you. Ah, it touches my heart so--all the kind thoughts and words.

Rely on that rock that doesn't roll. You must hold each other up and know that you have done what you can to restore fellowship in your church that you love so--even those who've taken the path of ruin are deserving of our compassion too. Arrogance and deflection are manifested of suffering and self-preservation, self-grasping.

Sorry to lay it on thick, but I think this could be a time to deepen your faith, to support one another and that this might even strengthen you.

All my love and best thoughts to you.

David

PS--If you'd like to email me personally, I trust NASS to offer my communication info wisely--drop me a line.

oc said...

Hi Cakes.

Missed you. Welcome back.

Lin said...

Cakes, I have missed your lyrical wordsmithing. It is a beauty what you do with words.

Lin

concernedSBCer said...

Cakes!!!! Glad you're back! :)

socwork said...

Hi Trollcakes! Nice to "see" ya.

oc said...

Hey Socwork!

socwork said...

Hi OC :)

Lynn said...

Churchmouse said...

I think someone said he wasn't preaching Sunday. I am not sure where that came from. Maybe the conversation about the next week's Bellevue Today?

6:00 PM, May 05, 2007


Gaines will not be preaching tomorrow, however he will be there or at least he will be for the Sunday Night Service. According to the Bellevue Today bulletin, Dr. Jerry Rankin, president of the International Mission Board will preach the Morning services, and then at the Sunday Night Service it will be a showcase of some of the different missions including a presentation by Impact Ministries in Frayser. Gaines will be making some closing comments at the end of that service according to the bulletin.

gopher said...

Food poisoning and 2 days in the infirmary.

Apparently it must have been some of that spiritual food he's been writing about.

gmommylv said...

Hey Cakes!
Just got in and saw you visited.Will email you!

My deacon friend said Steve was sick Thursday and my niece saw him yesterday at Walgreens buying shampoo....so when would he have been in the infirmary??

sickofthelies said...

armenius said:

Ummmmm,

Are we supposed to celebrate?


SOTL says:

well, armenius, none of US suggested it, but if you feel you MUST, have at it...but , personally, I think that's a little, ummmm, sick.

gmommylv said...

Looks like everyone has life going on ....the blog has been slow today.

sickofthelies said...

hey gommmy...

Hope you've had a good day.

New BBC Open Forum said...

remember...

Go away!

New BBC Open Forum said...

Sorry for the comment moderation, folks. We've had one of these today.

Charlie Fox said...

TROLL, TROLL, TROLL. I feel better now!!!!!

sickofthelies said...

hmmmm, sounds like someone has issues, to me....

Maybe he's still pouting?

Charlie Fox said...

I attended GBC this AM. What a powerful message Dr. Spradlin preached. The man is 150% ALL ABOUT JESUS!!!!!!!

Churchmouse said...

QUESTION FOR ANYONE:

Is anyone concerned for BBC's widows and seniors? I have two long time friends who have lost their husbands. They both moved out of Memphis to be near friends or extended family, after being pushed out of their area of service at BBC. They were young enough to take care of themselves. Some of our seniors are very dependant on their church family for love and emotional support.In many cases, the church family is their only family. The church family is now fractured. I wonder if anyone is helping these folks settle into other churches. BBC's focus seems to be on the perceived needs of the young.

Amy said...

When I pray for your church, I specifically pray for the elderly members. I even get choked up when they pan the BBC audience on TV, and I see the older folks. Those are the shoulders BBC stands on, and they should be appreciated for the treasures they are. The wisdom and experience our seasoned members add is invaluable.
Imagine having the rug ripped out from under you after decades of faithful service. I am sure it is especially sad, and scary, to think of starting over in a new church at this stage in their lives. I am praying the senior adults pastor at BBC is especially aware and sensitive of their extra needs during this time.

maybejustmaybe said...

Amy,

He was, but unfortunately he resigned a few weeks ago. Does anyone know if the responsibility for senior adults has been reassigned to one of our other ministers since Jason left?

Standingontheshoulders1973 said...

Quite a few of my grandparents' friends have had to find other places to worship. Others are hanging on b/c they have no other options--it's tough to look for another church when you're in your 80's & 90's!

My grandparents go to BSF and then come to worship service where we go. They are also coming with us on Wednesday nights. It has been heartbreaking to watch them go through this. They are very perceptive though, and have set a good example for our family in their attitude through it all.

Churches/families definitely need to begin teaching a respect for the elderly again! We are certainly trying with ours!

32yrs@bbc said...

Observations of services at Bellevue today: So many empty seats it was both shocking and sad.
I wonder what SG's thoughts are as he looks out over that vast sanctuary and sees so many unoccupied seats. Is he alarmed?
Or does he see this as just part of the process of change? The parking lots which once were packed with cars are now half empty. This is a matter of preference, but it was difficult standing and singing "Jesus Saves"
to a rip-roaring beat instead of the original melody. Mrs. R is still in attendance but looking as sad as I felt. We are watching a once great church slowly dying and so many just seem to be in denial. Sad.

New BBC Open Forum said...

32yrs wrote:

"Mrs. R is still in attendance... "

Recent sightings at other churches seem to indicate otherwise.

"This is a matter of preference, but it was difficult standing and singing "Jesus Saves"
to a rip-roaring beat instead of the original melody."


Ouch. I'd say that sounds more like a matter of taste... or the lack thereof.

32yrs@bbc said...

New BBC Open Forum said...
32yrs wrote:

"Mrs. R is still in attendance... "

Recent sightings at other churches seem to indicate otherwise.

REPLY: She was there. She sits near our family. She does attend
GBC on Wed. nights and possibly Sun. nights. But she is finishing up her children's new member's class. She has told others she will be leaving once this series is completed.

New BBC Open Forum said...

32yrs,

Thank you. That confirms what I've heard.

Who would have ever dreamed?

New BBC Open Forum said...

churchmouse,

You have mail!

Proverbs 12:22 said...

But she is finishing up her children's new member's class. She has told others she will be leaving once this series is completed.


Her class finished today. Unless she has changed her mind, today was Mrs. Rogers last day at Bellevue.

Proverbs 12:22 said...

But she is finishing up her children's new member's class. She has told others she will be leaving once this series is completed.

Mrs. Rogers finished her New Member's class today. Unless she has changed her mind, today was her last day at Bellevue Baptist Church, marking the end of a glorious era.

I'm crying!

Churchmouse said...

I really encourage people who have moved to take a senior friend to your new church for a visit. Show them around and help them check out the availability of transportation and services that would meet their needs.

sheeplessatbbc said...

I attended GBC this morning and tonite, when I leave I feel I have been to church and heard the word of God preached and without a self-serving agenda.

There is a sweet spirt in that place like we used to have at Bellevue.

I spoke with a 29 yr BBC member tonite that he & his wife had moved their membership to GBC, they both were faithful servants at BBC for many years. He said they had considered waiting to see who the new pastor would be and maybe to be able to vote on issues at BBC, but decided to join now rather than waiting. We were talking about there would probably never be a real vote on anything at BBC and he said he had heard a lot of things from a lot of people since the meeting 3/25.

If Mrs. Rogers does leave if will be as if the last bell tolls.

sheeplessatbbc said...

FYI,

For anyone that is considering Germantown Baptist as their new church home, there is going to be "a real business meeting" the night of 5/20/07.

Patrick Clough said...

I just wanted to say thank you to everyone who has shared their experiences with Dr. and Mrs. Rogers.

I too have fond memories of his laugh, his one-liners, and love for the sheep.

I find myself tearing up with I think of how much he loved Mrs. Joyce and Jesus. He was a real man. He wanted so much to be faithful to them both, and he was!

Brothers and sisters, love Jesus first and foremost. Love your families. Serve one another. Glorify God in your bodies and life.

Don't just know about Him, make sure He knows you.


Matt 7:13-23
13 "Enter by the narrow gate; for the gate is wide, and the way is broad that leads to destruction, and many are those who enter by it.
14 "For the gate is small, and the way is narrow that leads to life, and few are those who find it.
15 "Beware of the false prophets, who come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly are ravenous wolves.
16 "You will know them by their fruits. Grapes are not gathered from thorn {bushes,} nor figs from thistles, are they?
17 "Even so, every good tree bears good fruit; but the bad tree bears bad fruit.
18 "A good tree cannot produce bad fruit, nor can a bad tree produce good fruit.
19 "Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire.
20 "So then, you will know them by their fruits.
21 "Not everyone who says to Me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven; but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven.
22 "Many will say to Me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many miracles?'
23 "And then I will declare to them, 'I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness.'
(NAS)

allofgrace said...

It's heartbreaking to read some of the posts...I've been through this before so I know how hard it is. But I also know that there are good churches out there, and God does not leave His sheep unattended...keep trusting and looking...He'll get you there. For everyone determined to stick it out at BBC, my prayers are with you daily. Grace and Peace.

Lin said...

"I really encourage people who have moved to take a senior friend to your new church for a visit."

Thank you for posting this. This is a real soft spot for me in all the GCM takeovers I have seen. It breaks my heart to see what is happening to the seniors.

concernedSBCer said...

Hi Truthseekers: In the worship service this morning, our pastor said several things that made me think of everyone here on the blog. I jotted them down and thought I would share. The pastor is going through II Timothy.

Here is one quote:
When is truth ever up for a vote? We have to make sure our lives line up with scripture.

Then, to make a point, he referenced I John 2:27:"But the annointing which you have received from Him that abides in you, and you do not need that anyone teach you; but as the same annointing teaches you concerning all things, and is true, and is not a lie, and just as it has taught you, you will abide in Him."

The Holy Spirit will let you know when something is not right and the Holy Spirit will warn us of things that are not accurate. Just like the thread on "checks in the spirit" Christians have the Holy Spirit abiding in us, teaching us. Those checks are from Him. Never doubt them.

(you can download this sermon; if anyone is interested, email me and I'll give you the link.)

I thought this would be encouraging as so many are searching now, both in BBC and out of BBC.

sheeplessatbbc said...

In our grief for our own losses it has been easy to overlook the needs of our seniors.

We need to be in special prayer for the entire Rogers' family and our seniors.

May God show us any way that we may be of service to our seniors or any members with special needs.

Charlie Fox said...

Lin said...
"I really encourage people who have moved to take a senior friend to your new church for a visit."

Thank you for posting this. This is a real soft spot for me in all the GCM takeovers I have seen. It breaks my heart to see what is happening to the seniors.

REPLY:
FWIW, for the most part, it was the "seniors" that stood in the gap during the struggle at GBC.

concernedSBCer said...

Charlie: In the PDC split I was involved in, it was the Seniors that got disenfranchized the most. They were told it didn't matter what they thought; to leave. How heartbreaking after pouring all that time, wisdom, and money into a church......

Amy said...

Charlie said,

FWIW, for the most part, it was the "seniors" that stood in the gap during the struggle at GBC.

So true.. I also thought they weren't treated very respectfully by the former staff. As a whole, our seniors remained a class act, and I learned(and still learn) a lot by watching them.

all2jesus said...

32yrs@bbc said...
Observations of services at Bellevue today: So many empty seats it was both shocking and sad.
I wonder what SG's thoughts are as he looks out over that vast sanctuary and sees so many unoccupied seats. Is he alarmed?


He addresses this question in his new book. From two topics ago:

"The longer I live, the less interested I am in how many people we have in the sanctuary. What is far more important to me is how much of God we have in the place. If He comes, we will have a wonderful service, no matter if there's only a handful. I know some preachers who think if a thousand people come to their morning services, or fifteen hundred, or two thousand, they've had a great Sunday. Not necessarily. I say to them, 'You haven't had a great Sunday unless God shows up!"

Maybe it's just hyperbole, but at face value Steve thinks varying amounts of God are present during worship. We can no longer trust Jesus when he says "if two or more of you are gathered together, there am I in the midst." No, to get a lot of God (patently an on experiential basis) we need to first supply a lot of... something of our own. And a personal invite from a great man of God like Steve wouldn't hurt either, I guess.

FallethNtheDitch said...

ust a note on service this morning and evening service at BBC...Lot of people trying to stick it out...But the sweet spirit was gone.I guess if we buy steves new book oh well...I was wearing a 25 year sticker celebrating Love worth finding which I got at their booth during service Steve Tucker(came over cuz I was in his vincinity during handshake time)He said" whats the 25 years for? ...And I said"Love Worth Finding"He seemed perplexed and oily and mumbled some
thing and floated back to his seat.Its like they don"t want to acknowledge anything to do with our former pastor unless it serves their agenda .How many times did Steve Gaines go to see Dr Rodgers in his last days? .During invitation David Coombs had some people come down close to where he was standing
as they got closer he just stood there looking straight ahead not seeming to notice them as if he was expecting a barefoot teenager to start jumping seats..During Evening service several speakers(missons folks and pastors)Had Jamie Parker interupt with "The Jamie Parker Show"Starring Jamie Parker"after Jamie drowned out the others with his voice leading and interjecting several croakings I that I saw Lawrence Welk bubbles floatin all over the stage....Then several guest pastors said Steve Gaines was the best Pastor in America today...But feared for any remaining staff members would have to go thru David Coombs to affirm this.I am sorry if I am being critical it honestly looks like the same old dog and pony show.I am the only out there that sees this?I think the only Missions these guys go on is to races in Nashville and to J.Alexanders.....And yes I forgot Gatlinburg......Another staff member gone....Still the same old picture....Except theres hardly any one left in the frame anymore ...That is except old Stevie and of course Lawernce Welk....

gmommylv said...

Fall....
I didn't understand the DC thing....he didn't acknowledge the people he asked to come up????Or he expected trouble???
So sorry,just want to get that part....thanks for the report.

sickofthelies said...

Faith,

Are you still attending BBC and if so, why? It doesn't sound like you are being fed..

I'm not being critical...Just curious...Please don't just stay there becuase you are comfortable there...you need to go somewhere that you can be fed.

Were there a lot of empty seats thre today?

FallethNtheDitch said...

To gmom and sick of the lies
To clarify Dc is a interfernce man for Sg he was improperly ordained he simply looks out of place when we have altar call.He is rude and they
will ordain anyone they choose.They will interpet scripture any way they see fit.Sick of the lies GBC is not been ruled out completly.I love Dr.Mike Spradlin .I still will visit you all again soon I hope.God bless
&Good nite...

32yrs@bbc said...

"The longer I live, the less interested I am in how many people we have in the sanctuary. What is far more important to me is how much of God we have in the place. If He comes, we will have a wonderful service, no matter if there's only a handful. I know some preachers who think if a thousand people come to their morning services, or fifteen hundred, or two thousand, they've had a great Sunday. Not necessarily. I say to them, 'You haven't had a great Sunday unless God shows up!"

REPLY TO All2Jesus:
This may sound a tad carnal but is thoroughly practical - numbers equate to tithes and offerings. We have a friend who ushers and he said the passed plates are coming up with very few envelopes and only some scattered dollar bills.
Wonder how the budget is doing these days?

Lwood said...

We have a friend who ushers and he said the passed plates are coming up with very few envelopes and only some scattered dollar bills.
Wonder how the budget is doing these days?

6:25 AM, May 07, 2007

There was very few there Sunday. In our section of the balcony there were a total of 9 people where it use to be full. From where you walk down and on our left nearly to the curve there was 39 and a few more came in as the service was nearly over...The offering plates in our section I am told all 3 plates had 3 envelopes in them.....No any smilling faces like people were happy to be there....

New BBC Open Forum said...

all2jesus wrote:

"He addresses this question in his new book. From two topics ago:

"'The longer I live, the less interested I am in how many people we have in the sanctuary.'"


Well, I suppose that's one way of dealing with it. Funny, seems like that used to be a big deal.

allofgrace said...

It's a sad day when a church has to splice old footage into it's broadcast tapes to make the crowds look bigger than what they are. Sounds like a case of denial to me...not to mention deception. I heard from someone who sings in the choir that looking out into the congregation is a sad sight...so many empty seats. Didn't someone who posted here say they saw themselves on the broadcast recently who hasn't attended BBC in months?...very, very sad.

Churchmouse said...

Another 'practical' question. Will a much smaller congregation of younger, less financially established worshippers be able to support this huge church campus? The church is successfully ridding herself of her financial backbone. If Gaines begins to target the inner city poor and minorities, will that pull the church out of the financial ditch? It will be some years before this younger congregation begins to bequeath their wealth to the Bellevue Foundation. I am sure the PD people have crunched the numbers, but I don't understand how this works.

MOM4 said...

Fall said...
"I was wearing a 25 year sticker celebrating Love worth finding which I got at their booth during service Steve Tucker(came over cuz I was in his vincinity during handshake time)He said" whats the 25 years for? ...And I said"Love Worth Finding"He seemed perplexed and oily and mumbled some
thing and floated back to his seat.Its like they don"t want to acknowledge anything to do with our former pastor unless it serves their agenda "

Not too very long ago I was at LWF and there is a picture in their lobby of Dr Rogers' retirement. He and Joyce are surrounded by men who all have laid hands on them in a final prayer. Among these men are some of the very same men who were laying in wait for his retirement in order to pursue their unholy agendas. One in particular that stood out to me was Steve Tucker. It makes me wonder what he was thinking as he laid hands on the man whose ministry and legacy he betrayed. Judas comes to mind..

New BBC Open Forum said...

aog wrote:

"It's a sad day when a church has to splice old footage into it's broadcast tapes to make the crowds look bigger than what they are."

They deny this is happening. Many of the local broadcasts are from services from last year when attendance was higher, so crowd shots would naturally show people who haven't been there in a while.

Karen said...

Good Morning All!

I attended Faith Baptist yesterday and Rev. Siquefield preached on "Unity In the Church" based on Ephesians 4:1-4.

I think the things that stood out the most to me where these:

* Unity does not mean Unison - we don't have to agree on everything to be a family of God.

* Unity does not mean Unanimity - we don't have to walk in "lockstep" - we are allowed to have differing opinions

Ephesians 4
Unity in the Body of Christ
1 As a prisoner for the Lord, then, I urge you to live a life worthy of the calling you have received.
2 Be completely humble and gentle; be patient, bearing with one another in love.
3 Make every effort to keep the unity of the Spirit through the bond of peace.
4 There is one body and one Spirit—just as you were called to one hope when you were called— 5one Lord, one faith, one baptism; 6one God and Father of all, who is over all and through all and in all.

It was a very interesting sermon and one I really needed to hear - we actually had no intention of going to Faith, but God had a different idea. Danny also said that EVERY last Wednesday of the month, Faith has a "town hall" type meeting where any member can ask ANY question they would like. Now isn't that refreshing? He said if there's nothing to hide, why shouldn't the membership ask questions?

He also talked alot about Matthew 18 and how that applies to us. He talked about it should apply to anyone who has a conflict. It was refreshing to me that Matthew 18 is SUPPOSED to work like that, but unfortunately as BBC members, we've been told that Matthew 18 doesn't apply to Steve Gaines.

I wish I brought the sermon notes to work with me, but if you'd like to get the sermon notes, I'd be more than happy to email them to you.

karen

charis said...

Karen,

If you or anyone else wants to hear it, Bro. Danny's sermons will eventually show up on the Faith Baptist website. www.faithbaptistbartlett.org

Look under Resourses: audio messages..

Sometimes it takes a couple of weeks.

Finance Guy said...

I do not want to start another PDL discussion, I just wanted to point something out to those that may need more evidence that Rick Warren and the methods of the PDL movement violate Scripture, (or at least demonstrate one of God's Principles outlined in Scripture), specifically James 4:4.
If this isn't 'Friendship with the World', what is?

Karen said...

charis said...
Karen,

If you or anyone else wants to hear it, Bro. Danny's sermons will eventually show up on the Faith Baptist website. www.faithbaptistbartlett.org

Look under Resourses: audio messages..

Sometimes it takes a couple of weeks.


Thanks - I called the church to see if it was online and I found the spot. I saw you yesterday, but there were too many people in the hallway just to yell at you! :)


I LOVED that sermon - I think the people around me got the idea I enjoyed it. I was nodding my head and "amening" and taking notes like crazy!
karen

eprov said...

The Great Paradox.....
1) A church seeks a Pastor to be 'undershepherd' of the flock. They, innocent like sheep, assume that the new shepherd has a heart for the sheep that make up the flock. They go thru the process of 'seeking' the Will of God and place their faith in a select few who make up the Pulpit Committee to represent their best interests. The innocent sheep (and I mean that in a spiritual sense) can only rely on the good faith communication from the committee and the potential Pastor.
Here's the shocker -
2) Once the new Pastor arrives, the innocent sheep discover that he had no intention
of 'shepherding' the existing flock. He suggests that changes must be made, that there is a 'world' out there to reach. And one assumes that the committee must have been included in this plan.
This blows any credibility to the value of the 'one lost sheep' and the 'ninety and nine' that we were all raised to believe.
What an insensitive, unloving, uncaring, calloused approach to the holy calling of a true 'undershepherd.' The prevailing philosophy of 'if you don't like it, leave!'
I don't think the Good Shepherd would do his sheep that way.

sickofthelies said...

I wonder if King Steve, standing there with his imaginary crown on his head, looking out into the "audience"m even notices that there are empty seats?

sickofthelies said...

Eprov said:

What an insensitive, unloving, uncaring, calloused approach to the holy calling of a true 'undershepherd

SOTL says:

AMEN and AMEN

Truer words were never spoken!!!

all2jesus said...

In the month of May, many rural Tennessee areas have "Decoratin' Days" at various cemeteries to place flowers, spruce the place up and enjoy a sort-of family reunion. Not being from the South originally, this was not a tradition I knew growing up. But having married a GRITS, I kinda expect to make the pilgrimage every year. The first Sunday in May (yesterday) is the day at Duke cemetery.

There's a nice chapel on the grounds and the day begins with a worship service. Yesterday's was good: heartfelt singing of some cherished old hymns and a simple Gospel presentation by a guest preacher who had traveled all the way from Alabama.

Church was followed by a large picnic potluck of fabulous food, share and share alike, come one come all.

A "Singin'" was scheduled for the afternoon, but first there was a business meeting for all concerned with the upkeep of the grounds. Robert's Rules were in effect (without saying so), reports were given, old and new business was handled efficiently and everyone had an opportunity to be heard. Then one of the officers said he needed to address a bit of controversy. Some work had been done that he thought was volunteer, but it turned out the individual expected payment. He didn't realize it because the person never submitted an invoice, but it would be taken care of and he humbly apologized for the misunderstanding and lack of diligence on his part. Finally, the treasurer gave a succinct report and said she had all the books, checks and other documents with her should anyone desire to inspect them. The transparency, openness and integrity of these dear folk was refreshing and humbling. My wife and I just looked at each other in amazement. If only BBC had this much integrity.

Finance Guy said...

In case you are unable to see the link posted earlier.

Angelina Jolie Keeps the Faith With New Charity

Angelina Jolie was just named one of Time magazine's 100 most influential Americans, not for acting but for her world politics.
All of this does create a plausible question about her: With Time citing her for activism, what is her future in Hollywood? Will audiences still accept her as a fictional character and not a lightning rod for discussion about obsessive adoption and child welfare?
The answer may come as soon as May 21, when Jolie's new movie, "A Mighty Heart," based on the memoir by Mariane Pearl about the murder of her journalist husband, Daniel, premieres at the Cannes Film Festival.
In the meantime, Jolie has recently picked up some new allies in her quest to save children around the world and stamp out AIDS. She has taken an interest in a three-year-old group called Global Action for Children, and with it a new partner in the war on AIDS: Kay Warren, wife of California super pastor Rick Warren of the Saddleback Church.
Saddleback, if you don't know about it already, is the hottest big-time Christian church to come out of the West coast since the Crystal Cathedral.
The Warrens oversee a $50 million operation and highly popular weekly services. Rick Warren's best-selling inspirational book, "The Purpose Driven Life," could easily also be used as a description of Jolie's career as goodwill ambassador to the world.
And Rick Warren, described as a "regular guy," also has aspirations to be the new millennium's Billy Graham in a Hawaiian shirt.
Ten days ago, Jolie came to New York, she said, "to launch the Global Action for Children campaign" — even though it had already been launched. The launch included a party at restaurant/hotspot Gin Lane where she boogied with French actor Oliver Martinez. But it also included many press releases about how Jolie was launching the campaign with Kay Warren, the woman responsible for Saddleback taking on AIDS in the first place.


A pastor once told me that you can judge the quality of a ministry by the quality of those who are attracted to it. In other words, Godly people are attracted to ministries where God is present.
My grandfather put it this way. “You are known by the company you keep”. Pop culture knows this principle as “Birds of a feather, flock together”.

In case you don’t know much about Angelina Jolie, she is not a friend to the Children of God. She flaunts her immorality in ways that I will not mention here. Just do a quick bit of googling on her if you need evidence. There were news reports last week of her lewd conduct in a public setting.

That’s evidence of her character. As far as evidence of her beliefs, in 2000, she was asked about her belief in God. This was her response.

Hmm... For some people. I hope so, for them. For the people who believe in it, I hope so. There doesn't need to be a God for me. There's something in people that's spiritual, that's godlike. I don't feel like doing things just because people say things, but I also don't really know if it's better to just not believe in anything, either”

This is textbook from the religion of Humanism.

In August of 2003 she told AsianConnections.com
“Angelina Jolie regards Buddhism as an important part of her son's Cambodian heritage and considers him a Buddhist. She has said, ‘We spend a lot of time [at our house in Cambodia]. And I’m learning about Buddhism and I’m teaching him what I can. He spent a lot of time in temples with monks and he's learning.’”
From The Sun, December 29, 2004 she was quoted as saying:
"I have a Buddhist son and I'd like a Christian and a Muslim child, too."

In July of that same year, USA today reported the following:
“Shortly after adopting Maddox, Angelina tattooed a prayer for protection for him on her upper back in Khmer script (left). She said, ‘I asked for it to be done in Buddhist Sanskrit, which is part of (Maddox's) history.’

The Bible tells us in Proverbs 22:6 “Train up a child in the way he should go..” Not to train up a child in the way he wants to go.

When these sort of people are attracted to your ministry, not because they want to be saved, or learn about the truth, but because they feel like you are interested in the same goals that they are, I feel that there is a very strong Biblically based argument that there is a problem.

Rick Warren and his allies believe that you work to meet the physical needs of people, and then you have “credibility” to meet their spiritual needs. Sounds good, not entirely wrong. It’s true that one way to bring people to Jesus is to show them Jesus, and then they will (hopefully) want to know more about what motivates you, and then you can share Christ.

However, the Great Commission was to “Go ye into all the World and preach the Gospel”. Not “Go ye to the U.S. Congress and the United Nations and lobby for more money for Aids research.”
The “social gospel” that is so prevalent in our church in this century is on the verge of taking over the evangelism focus of the last.



When a Southern Baptist Church that is considered the most influential church in Americaconsiders a Pagan Movie actress a “Missionary” for it’s efforts,( that it is spending God’s money on), in my humble editorial opinion, the Church has serious problems.

Karen said...

Finance,

It's not surprising that Saddleback and the Warrens would align themselves with Angelina. She is looking for something to fill her "God shaped hole" in her spirit and she may be trying to fill it with these adopted kids. I wonder if the Warrens have asked her about her spirtual condition? I wonder if they've explained the "Roman Road" or given her the plan of salvation? Probably not as they are accepting of any and all - by whatever means necessary.

It's not a wonder that celebrities go looking for the most spiritual thing they can find - Madonna and Kabbalah, Tom Cruise, John Travolta, Kirstie Alley and Scientolgy. Reminds me of an old "What's Happening" episode where Reruns joins a cult that worships a head of lettuce!

karen

Charlie Fox said...

New BBC Open Forum said...
aog wrote:

"It's a sad day when a church has to splice old footage into it's broadcast tapes to make the crowds look bigger than what they are."

They deny this is happening. Many of the local broadcasts are from services from last year when attendance was higher, so crowd shots would naturally show people who haven't been there in a while.

REPLY:

Why are they airing LAST YEAR'S services?

Karen said...

Charlie,

They are airing current (maybe a week behind) sermons, but splicing in shots of audiences from last year. My mom saw a lady on TV who used to be on the Praise Team (she left over 8 months ago or so) on last week's broadcast. They are showing old music and audiences, but airing new sermons.

As to why they are doing this? Could be the choir is wearing thin (I've heard it's over 50% down), couild be the seats are more than a little empty in the sanctuary.

Weird, huh?

karen

Lin said...

"I am sure the PD people have crunched the numbers, but I don't understand how this works. "

It is called 'niche marketing'. You market to 'unchurched Harry and Harriet', who are in a certain income range, by promising to meet their 'felt needs'.

It works.

Karen said...

Nass,

They deny this is happening. Many of the local broadcasts are from services from last year when attendance was higher, so crowd shots would naturally show people who haven't been there in a while.

Well, unless the girl who sang with Ken Reich on yesterday's broadcast has been pregnant since last year (highly doubtful), they need to come with another excuse for the crowds containing people who I know have left BBC.

karen

Charlie Fox said...

karen sais:
Well, unless the girl who sang with Ken Reich on yesterday's broadcast has been pregnant since last year (highly doubtful), they need to come with another excuse for the crowds containing people who I know have left BBC.

REPLY:
karen,
Are you saying that the girl is pregnant NOW, which indicates that it is a RECENT service with old crowds spliced in.

stylix said...

http://www.local6.com/news/13265407/detail.html

Meanwhile in Orlando!

stylix said...

And now youth director PN and staff are throwing a big going-away party for MD and wife. All-staff at the pavilion lake Thursday @11. They are even taking up a collection to help send MD away. But what about BM? I guess he don't get no party.

32yrs@bbc said...

Churchmouse said...
Another 'practical' question. Will a much smaller congregation of younger, less financially established worshippers be able to support this huge church campus? The church is successfully ridding herself of her financial backbone. If Gaines begins to target the inner city poor and minorities, will that pull the church out of the financial ditch?

REPLY: I wonder - is there any alarm from the leadership over the empty seats (I saw rows of seats empty), the loss of teachers, the loss of ushers (and thus far no one willing to take their places), and the loss of tithes and offerings? Or is this just part of a process, and they are counting on new people gradually filling the voids? Really curious about this.

Bryson McQuiston is the latest staff member to leave. Another good and godly man leaving our presence. Do those in leadership positions comprehend the great loss of losing people like Bryson? Our loss will be someone else's gain just as it was with Jason Tallent, David Smith and others. I pray for Bryson and his family that the Lord will be gracious to them and be their shield of protection, their provider and their peace in the days ahead.

stylix said...

BM will surely be missed. Only the good Lord above knows how much I'll miss that man! It is a travesty to let him leave and I am hoping it'll be the wakeup call Bellevue needs to put a stop to this.

solomon said...

Charlie Fox said...

karen sais:
Well, unless the girl who sang with Ken Reich on yesterday's broadcast has been pregnant since last year (highly doubtful), they need to come with another excuse for the crowds containing people who I know have left BBC.

REPLY:
karen,
Are you saying that the girl is pregnant NOW, which indicates that it is a RECENT service with old crowds spliced in.


Charlie,
Don't know if I'm welcome here, but Rachel and Jimmy are currently expecting their first child. I assume that Karen saw crowd footage from last year, and it included members who have left.

Since Rachel's name has come up, I thought I'd mention she is still grieving from the loss of her sister, former staff member Meleisa Lutz. As a church, we should pray for her and her family.

The bond of love has been stretched, but I hope it hasn't been broken.

New BBC Open Forum said...

This is the broadcast schedule for April and May. Dates in parentheses are the original service dates. Some of these are about a year old; others are about two weeks old. There doesn't seem to be a pattern to it.

4/1/07 (3/18/07) Encouragement for Doing God's Will

4/8/07 (4/16/06) He is Risen! (Easter 2006)

4/15/07 (4/1/07) The Death of Jesus

4/22/07 (4/8/07) He is Risen! (Easter 2007)

4/29/07 (6/11/06) God's Treasure Chest

5/6/07 (4/15/07) Waiting on Jesus

5/13/07 (5/14/06) The Power of a Godly Mother

Karen wrote:

"Well, unless the girl who sang with Ken Reich on yesterday's broadcast has been pregnant since last year (highly doubtful), they need to come with another excuse for the crowds containing people who I know have left BBC."

Interesting since yesterday's broadcast originated on 4/15/07.

all2jesus said...

stylix said...

Meanwhile in Orlando!


Good grief. The guy claims to be both Jesus Christ reincarnated and the Anti-Christ. Let's see, he's an ex-con who served time for heroin abuse and petty theft, says there is no such thing as sin or hell and his followers tatoo themselves with 666. We report, you decide...

New BBC Open Forum said...

SOTL wrote:

"I wonder if King Steve, standing there with his imaginary crown on his head, looking out into the "audience" even notices that there are empty seats?"

Apparently when he greeted the First Family Emeritus that night at the MPP he failed to notice the empty seats where they ordinarily would have been seated.

New BBC Open Forum said...

Karen wrote:

"They are airing current (maybe a week behind) sermons, but splicing in shots of audiences from last year. My mom saw a lady on TV who used to be on the Praise Team (she left over 8 months ago or so) on last week's broadcast. They are showing old music and audiences, but airing new sermons."

Last week's broadcast service was from 6/11/06.

nathanb said...

Steve Gaines,

In your book that just came out, you say on page 108 "Preachers who harbor sin in their lives undermine both their prayers and their sermons. They cannot expect God to bless their work without dealing with their own transgresssions. I am not saying that we earn the blessings of God. I am simply saying that He puts a high value on integrity. He is also gracious, however, and if we repent of our sins, He will cleanse and forgive."

Reply: I agree with you that preachers that harbor sin in their lives undermine their ministry.
I also agree that God places a high value on integrity.

You are destroying Bellevue and you are destroying the reputations of many men who have surrounded you. You shouldn't be blamed however for these men who's reputations are being destroyed. They have chosen to follow a man instead of the Word. For that, they only have themselves to blame.

I actually heard one of our deacons who is highly educated (in man's eyes) say God was getting rid of all of the week Christians at Bellevue who are leaving because they don't like Steve Gaines.

All I can say is that God is going to deal with Bellevue in His own time and in His own way.

Perhaps people who know wrong is destroying Bellevue need to flee so God can bring down His judgement.

concernedSBCer said...

Nathan said "I actually heard one of our deacons who is highly educated (in man's eyes) say God was getting rid of all of the week Christians at Bellevue who are leaving because they don't like Steve Gaines."

How much strength does it take to follow blindly, to accept what someone says instead of studying for yourself.........

nathanb said...

On page 111 of "When God Comes to Church", the title of Chapter 9 that Steve Gaines uses is:

"What Attracts the Presence of God"

All I can say right now about the title alone, not to mention what follows is WHAT?

concernedSBCer said...

Nathan: Is it just me or does it sound like he's not read his Bible very much? Or doesn't believe in the Priesthood of the Believer?

nathanb said...

concernedsbcer,

I'm not sure how to describe my thoughts while reading his book.

I'd like to know if these words are his, Dean Merrill's or someone else.

If they are his, our church needs to have some serious discussions as to exactly what he believes on certain issues.

I've heard that Steve has bragged about being the top of his class in seminary. I really doubt the validity of that statement.

I doubt very seriously if he believes in the Priesthood of the Believer from what I've heard him say on his authority over the church. His word trumps the Word on several issues.

charis said...

Karen said...

I saw you yesterday, but there were too many people in the hallway just to yell at you! :)

Charis says:
I know who you think I am, and she's great! but, I am another Bellevue refugee who wasn't at church Sunday morning, either, so it wasn't me.

Karen:
I LOVED that sermon - I think the people around me got the idea I enjoyed it. I was nodding my head and "amening" and taking notes like crazy!

Charis:
Thanks for the heads-up :) I'm going to make sure that I listen to it too.

concernedSBCer said...

Nathan: That would certainly explain some of his actions of late. However, that is a cornerstone SBC belief, and if he helped on the Baptist Faith and Message, and he doesn't believe that, that is a concern I would think. It must be difficult for you to plow through that book but I think it's great that you are.

Karen said...

Faith Baptist Church May 6. 2007

Ephesians 4:1-6

Introduction: The unity of the church must be protected by the members of God's family. It is an urgent matter that should be a priority of every believer.

What Unity is NOT:

1. Unity is NOT unison.
2. Unity is NOT uniformity.

I.We Must Be Honest with Ourselves.

*Avoid the pitfalls of pride.
-Be gentle and meek.
-The shepherd must love, lead and correct the sheep with sensitivity.

II.We Must Be Patient with Others.
*Avoid the curse of criticism.
-Use your authority in the spirit of patience.
-Don't try to find fault.

III. We must be Diligent in our Duty.
*Avoid the Graveyard of Gossip.
-Don't be a person who will receive gossip.
-Use Matthew 18 - I about lost it on this one - He didn't get into how you are supposed to do this if your Pastor isn't held to Matthew 18.

IV. We Must Be Focused on the Truth.
*Avoid the Divisiveness of Disunity.
-If you are not happy with the church you are in, saturate the place with your absence. (Dr. Rogers quote)

Hope you enjoy the notes. I really loved this sermon.

Karen

Karen said...

Charlie Fox said...

karen,
Are you saying that the girl is pregnant NOW, which indicates that it is a RECENT service with old crowds spliced in.


Yes, that's what I'm saying. My mom said the girl should be about 7 months pregnant and when the panned the crowd, we saw people who have left long before that. Also, you can tell by the dress - lots of folks in long sleeves and more winter/spring dress. Then the girl singing was dressed for the present weather.

karen

Charlie Fox said...

Karen said...
Charlie Fox said...

karen,
Are you saying that the girl is pregnant NOW, which indicates that it is a RECENT service with old crowds spliced in.


Yes, that's what I'm saying. My mom said the girl should be about 7 months pregnant and when the panned the crowd, we saw people who have left long before that. Also, you can tell by the dress - lots of folks in long sleeves and more winter/spring dress. Then the girl singing was dressed for the present weather.

karen

REPLY:

Thanx, karen. It appears that you and solomon have confirmed that there is some deception taking place.

Karen said...

nathanb said...

I actually heard one of our deacons who is highly educated (in man's eyes) say God was getting rid of all of the week Christians at Bellevue who are leaving because they don't like Steve Gaines.


So who are they going to blame next? When the "week Christians" are all vanquished, who fault will the lack of money, spiritual growth and unity be blamed on then?

I am really tired of people saying "they don't like Steve Gaines". I don't have a personal problem with Steve Gaines. I do not, however, approve of how he is leading Bellevue. Let Steve climb your fence after dark sometime and see how much your approval rating of him goes down. Let him call you "hez" and see if your respect goes out the window. Let him give money to an organization that you disapprove of and see if you "like" him less. Let him lavish himself and his family with a new home in Fayette County when you're barely getting by and see if you invite him to your home for dinner, let him allow a sexual predator authorized access to your kids (let that one sink in a minute) and see if you don't lose your cotton picking mind over it.

It's not that I don't like Steve; it's that I have lost respect for him as leader because of his actions.

karen

Piglet said...

I admit I don't like Steve Gaines. :)

concernedSBCer said...

Piglet: Ditto.

Tim said...

Karen,

My honest opinion is that I couldn't warm up to this guy if we were cremated together.

Piglet said...

Who I like and don't like is beyond my control. Sometimes I don't like my own kids if they are being little rascals but I always love them. The difference is - I can't stop loving my kids and I have to choose to love Steve Gaines.

I know I do NOT hate him - and honestly wish him no harm unless that is what it takes to bring him back into submission to the Lord.

In my opinion, he is still "beating the granny" and we should get him to stop. If he STOPS and repents, I can forgive. I don't hold a grudge.

But the current leadership has promised that things are not going to change.

Maybe this will be the new wording in the updated bylaws that Coombs is supposed to be working on for us. "We like running things OUR way and we don't want the peon membership sticking their noses in or looking over our shoulders so BUTT OUT!"

lovecakes said...

Please forgive me if I take a serious moment with you, truthseekers. Reading the thread, I am beginning to sense a little battle fatigue. My advice is to stop fighting--not to give up, but to move on. There's really nothing new to engage, except to parse every new outrage or editorialize (and I am the biggest sinner of all); only to reinforce already held opinions and assumptions regarding Bellevue's leadership.

I don't know how much y'all actually engage in face time, but I hope that the forum has been a conduit to drawing you together beyond the virtual realm. I've enjoyed meeting several of you and it is both beautiful and heartbreaking to know a fragile, precious heart behind the words.

Without BBCOF, there would be no true voice of what must be a considerable number of the congregation deeply aggreived by the apparent coup. Yet I fear that a circuitous discussion of matters like Gaines book, PDF, shrines, speculation regarding Mrs. R., etc. will dilute the forum's real worth--love and support for for one another, integrity, solidarity--and be simply reduced to white noise.

Y'all need to assert a definitive punctuation to the situation at BBC--not to disolve the forum, but to end the endless Monday-morning quarterbacking.

Love, D.

Karen said...

Tim,

Now that's some serious dislike! :) Do you have a plan on when to turn in the petition? Shouldn't the membership be able to bring up other business in the May 20th meeting? And how can Mike Spradlin be on the list for SBC if he's interim minister of GBC? Is he still a member of BBC? Also, how can the leadership prevent a member from bringing up new business if said member really has something to say? Oh wait, I really don't want to know the answer to that, do I?

Piglet,

You always make me laugh.


karen

imaresistor said...

Charlie Fox, Lindon, and all...

The True Church Conference was tremendous...

I can't describe it because there are no words.

Ima

Amy said...

What is the Bellevue Foundation? Is it separate from BBC church and the money members tithe? The reason I am asking this is I started thinking on my morning walk, that it would bother me if my church gave $500,000.00 to ECS. Please don’t think I am knocking ECS, not at all. We had looked into sending our first child there when she started Kindergarten (1996), and on the application you had to write your testimony, as well as get a statement from your pastor saying your family was active in church. They made it clear they weren't a missionary school, and wanted a Christian population. The tuition was very expensive, especially when we added three kids x 12 years. The children that attend ECS are not from families that can’t provide for them. ECS may even offer financial assistance to some families. However, I think they can raise the extra funding, and any resources they might need, from their own body of families. I would feel differently giving them half a million dollars if they reached out to children from impoverished backgrounds, and their mission was to provide a safe, loving environment to learn about Jesus, as well as receive a good education. Also, would there be a conflict of interest since Brian Miller is Chairman of the Deacons?

Amy said...

Lovecakes,
You write so beautifully, and have really been a sweet encouragement to many on the blog.
The reason I got interested in the blog was the PDC stuff that split my church, GBC, last year. My heart really broke when I realized how powerless BBC members are. Then of course I became absolutely outraged over how Steve Gaines, (and I also think the other two staff members that knew are just as guilty), handled PW.
Anyway, like you, I feel people's pain and frustration. I also enjoy fellowshipping with them very much, and have met several myself. If I remember correctly, you were going to come eat at GBC on a Wednesday night too- the offer still stands, and like I promised, you can still sit by me!

Anyway, I think it's important to have a place to vent, and to question, the direction BBC is headed, even if others see it as beating a dead horse. This is the only forum where they can honestly express their feelings and be heard. There are a lot of people that read these blogs and don’t post. This may be the only source they have apart from the BBC spin machines, where folks can learn, and start to piece together what is really happening to their church.

I know this blog has the reputation for being a forum for legalistic, anti-Bellevue gasbags. But, it's been a healing place for a lot of people, and I don't think anyone can truly deny the folks make some very good points.

The seat next to me will have your name on it (Brother Cakes is my favorite) tomorrow night! How bout the rest of you guys?

gmommylv said...

Cakes...
just sneaking a quick peak in between things ...only to read your sweet encouragement...again.
Thank you. You are a blessing.


Blog friends,
I would personally like some sort of symbolic closure.
My ideas are very much scaled down from my original wild,"call in the media" thoughts. Maybe a small group of us could do this together. I will discuss with NASS.

lovecakes said...

Amy,

I can dig that. I've been wanting to get by GBC to look for truthseekers, but I seem to always be working between my two jobs; and as a staunch Midtowner, I have trouble venturing east of E. Pkwy.

But I should.

Karen said...

Amy,

Lovecakes is just a midtown snob! :) Don't let him fool ya! Seriously, D, if you can venture to Cordova to 2000 Appling, you can suck it up and venture to GBC on Poplar. C'mon, try it; you'll like it! :)

BTW, Amy, send me an email so we can arrange to meet up this Friday.

karen

lovecakes said...

Yea, but BBC is on the hwy, and have their own exit--it's idiot-proof. GBC, who knows?

You know, I've heard worse about Midtowners--like we're all gay. HA!

Amy said...

Brother Cakes,

GBC is on Poplar (9450 Poplar Ave). You may not have a "quick escape route" since it's not off a big highway like BBC, but if you just get on Poplar and go East, you can't miss it! Please join us!

Karen, you have mail!

lovecakes said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
lovecakes said...

Thank you for discerning my comfort with escape routes. The night after the Coombs travesty, I really had to get my keister out of the BBC perimeter (can I say that?); though not before I snagged one of those big chocolate chip cookies at the after-to-do. One's got to have priorities.

I've alway thought Bellevue's spread on a hwy exit, and so many billboards was a little over the top anyway. But it makes getting in and out of Sodom (te he) easy.

New BBC Open Forum said...

'cakes wrote:

"The night after the Coombs travesty, I really had to get my keister out of the BBC perimeter (can I say that?); though not before I snagged one of those big chocolate chip cookies at the after-to-do."

"Perimeter" is perfectly acceptable.

They had big chocolate chip cookies? Mmmm!

gmommylv said...

I just had my first face to face with a true "colored beverage drinker". Or as this person put it...a die hard Steve fan...

Just when I think I am adjusting or accepting this nightmare.

The script must have been copied and handed out for all to memorize....the first comment that got my heart racing ....

"this is a GOOD thing.BBC is being cleaned out!"

I said...do you realize how hurtful that is to people like myself???

Then it was all about "feelings" and "happiness".....
"if you aren't HAPPY at BBC and you are going around talking about the situation....you are gossiping"

and the real kicker for me...
"sexual abuse is just like all other sins"...I don't know that Bro. R didn't know what PW did....I don't know what PW told SG...I don't mess with that stuff....I am not in a position to judge...I trust leadership to take care of all that.....

With all that deflection and all the feelings stuff...my one question was...do you think that a minister should be held to scriptural qualifications?
Do you think PW should have remained as minister ???

this person said yes ,PW should keep his job .
And scripture was being followed.

This would be easier to tell if I could put all the inflections and act it out for you but I was CRUSHED.

Even people with their heads in the sand knew what was right when it came to the handling and sin of PW.
I want to move from the city....or planet.

concernedSBCer said...

GMommy....I am astonished....although I don't know why I should be. I can't imagine how thinking adults can believe that stuff. What did you say in response?

concernedSBCer said...

OFG: Where is this fact published so it can be verified?

nathanb said...

gmommylv,

Don't get too down about folks who don't see any wrong with what's going on at Bellevue Baptist these days.

It really all boils down to trust. Can you trust your pastor? Can you trust the pastor to handle the Word of God? Can you trust what he says?

There will always be leaders and members who look the part but don't get it.

I believe BBC is an apostate church like so many others have said on this blog and it's time to run as fast as you can away from the place. The church has been confronted with the Truth and the church leadership has rejected the Truth.

If you stay, you will probably get to see the worst of the worst as they tell themselves and others that everything is great and the Lord is getting rid of all of the Truthseekers.

The trust is gone and I don't beleive it will be restored with Steve Gaines at the helm.

I use helm because he is driving the cruise ship Bellevue towards disaster.

For people that are at Bellevue and may be reading this, be careful not to listen to folks like Steve Tucker give his folksy reasons as to why the ship is sinking but it's a good thing.

Get inside the Word and cry out to the Lord to give you discernment. The Bible does not condone sinning at will amongst the leadership.

nathanb said...

Overflowinggrace doesn't know what he is talking about.

THE $500,000 WAS NOT FROM THE ROGERS ESTATE.

CALL BOB DAWKINS AND ASK HIM.

nathanb said...

The gift to the foundation was from someone's estate but it was not the Rogers.

They asked that the money be used designated for education.

ECS was in the middle of a building project fund raiser so the Bellevue Foundation voted to give $500,000 to ECS.

Ask Harry Smith and his son-in-law Rex Jones. Rex Jones works for ECS and can verify the $500,000 didn't come from the Rogers estate.

junk99mail said...

nathanb said...
On page 111 of "When God Comes to Church", the title of Chapter 9 that Steve Gaines uses is:
"What Attracts the Presence of God"
All I can say right now about the title alone, not to mention what follows is WHAT?


Let me guess ... the outline of the chapter goes something like this ...

The Spirit is attracted to unity (Acts 2:1).
A. Unity brings the blessing of anointing.
Psalm 133:1-3
B. Unity provides a witness to the lost.
John 13:34-35
C. Disunity is a sign of spiritual immaturity.
1 Corinthians 1:10-13; 3:1-7; Jude 1:16-19
D. Unity is to be a primary goal of Christians.
Ephesians 4:3
E. Christians should turn away from divisive people.
Titus 3:10-11

gmommylv said...

Concerned,
I can't say I did a good job at whatever I said.
She was more in the control role....saying several times to whatever I said..
"NO,my name
NO,my name"
I felt my face getting really hot and when I walked away I got in the car and cried.
I wasn't mad so much as something else.....????
it was a GOOD thing for me to leave and all the names I could name of other people that have long,FAITHFUL, histories at BBC.

It was hearing the "non issues" being the issues and not the true issues.
You know, after WE are all gone and the church is CLEANSED.....

all the predators and manipulators and simple thinkers...or NON thinkers ...will be very comfortable there.

I will have to be prepared for this next time.

What was interesting is that at this business meeting I was at,

I sat by another long time BBC person that said her husband was hanging on...he teaches youth....
BUT that SG could NOT be her pastor. She wanted to leave and they have not been going to service for some time....

The differences in these 2 people gave a good picture of who the SG's team WANT to remain.
Those that don't question their authority or understand scripture.

My thing about hopping over to GBC is that I don't know if that will be an atmosphere I can heal in.....BUT I don't want to be pulled away from ALL of the core believers I love......


what kind of non human is SG that he cares nothing for the walking wounded!!!!!!

nathanb said...

gmommylv,

Don't worry about your encounter with this member. It's them and not you that are wrong.

You are not normal if you can't accept a pastor that breaks the law.

You are not open if you can't accept a pastor who lies.

You are not normal if you can't accept a pastor that makes an income in the top 1/2 of 1 percent of wage earners in the United States but tells you as a member that it's none of your business what he makes and it's none of your business to know the details of how he's spending tithe money at Bellevue. Also, it's not between you and God about tithing but between you and the pastor.

You are spiritually immature if you can't accept giving to a pro-homosexual and pro-abortion church by your pastor.

You need to leave the church if you expect the church to actually have business meetings.

Of course I'm being absurd to make a point.

YOU are not the one who is wrong. You are loved by so many people who you don't know and you don't know them.

The Bible is filled from front to back of the faithful that stood when it appeared the masses would not stand. These faithful warriors sounded the warning that the people needed to change from their wicked ways and return to God.

I'm grateful for you and everyone who has the courage to take a stand for righteousness even if it means being persecuted.

God bless you this evening.

lovecakes said...

gmommylv,

Take on day at a time, and do what is beneficial and healing today for you and the others for whom you love. When you think of others, how one proceeds becomes clearer and more precise. There is peace in that too.

Love, D.

gmommylv said...

lovecakes...
you are such a sweetheart.

New BBC Open Forum said...

nathanb wrote:

"You are not normal if you can't accept a pastor that breaks the law.

"You are not open if you can't accept a pastor who lies.

"You are not normal if you can't accept a pastor that makes an income in the top 1/2 of 1 percent of wage earners in the United States but tells you as a member that it's none of your business what he makes and it's none of your business to know the details of how he's spending tithe money at Bellevue. Also, it's not between you and God about tithing but between you and the pastor.

"You are spiritually immature if you can't accept giving to a pro-homosexual and pro-abortion church by your pastor.

"You need to leave the church if you expect the church to actually have business meetings.

"Of course I'm being absurd to make a point."


Actually, I don't think you're being absurd at all. That seems to be exactly the "leadership's" mindset now. It doesn't mean those things are true, but it does seem to be the prevailing attitude.

"...it's time to run as fast as you can away from the place."

You aren't the first person I've heard say that! Apparently a lot of people have already followed that advice.

32yrs@bbc said...

Jude, the servant of Jesus Christ...Beloved, when I gave all diligence to write unto you of the common salvation, it was needful for me to write unto you, and exhort you that you should earnestly contend for the faith which was once delivered unto the saints...Now unto Him who is able to keep you rom falling and to present you faultless before the presence of His glory with exceeding joy, to the only wise God, our Savior, be glory and majesty, dominion and power, both now and forever. Amen. Jude 1,2,24,25.

"The Lord is good, a stronghold in the day of trouble, and He knoweth those who trust in Him." Nahum 1:7

"There is no panic in Heaven; only
plans." - Adrian Rogers

"Just because you can't see God working, does not mean He is not at work." - Adrian Rogers

"The groans we endure are temporary; the glory we expect is
eternal." Adrian Rogers

"Trouble can be a seminary to teach us the provisions of God."
-Adrian Rogers

"When we were born again, we were born to win!" - Adrian Rogers :-)

New BBC Open Forum said...

gmommylv,

Like I've said before, trying to convince people like you encountered today to even consider pulling their heads out of the sand is like trying to teach a pig to sing. It wastes your time and annoys the pig.

ezekiel said...

2 Thess 2:1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and [by] our gathering together unto him,

2:2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.

2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for [that day shall not come], except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

2:4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.

2:5 Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?

2:6 And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time.

2:7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth [will let], until he be taken out of the way.

2:8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:

2:9 [Even him], whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,

2:10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.

2:11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:

2:12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

2:13 But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:

2:14 Whereunto he called you by our gospel, to the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ.

2:15 Therefore, brethren, stand fast, and hold the traditions which ye have been taught, whether by word, or our epistle.

2:16 Now our Lord Jesus Christ himself, and God, even our Father, which hath loved us, and hath given [us] everlasting consolation and good hope through grace,

2:17 Comfort your hearts, and stablish you in every good word and work.

GOTO NEXT CHAPTER - KJV SEARCH ENGINE

ezekiel said...

Isaiah 66:1 Thus saith the LORD, The heaven [is] my throne, and the earth [is] my footstool: where [is] the house that ye build unto me? and where [is] the place of my rest?

66:2 For all those [things] hath mine hand made, and all those [things] have been, saith the LORD: but to this [man] will I look, [even] to [him that is] poor and of a contrite spirit, and trembleth at my word.

66:3 He that killeth an ox [is as if] he slew a man; he that sacrificeth a lamb, [as if] he cut off a dog's neck; he that offereth an oblation, [as if he offered] swine's blood; he that burneth incense, [as if] he blessed an idol. Yea, they have chosen their own ways, and their soul delighteth in their abominations.

66:4 I also will choose their delusions, and will bring their fears upon them; because when I called, none did answer; when I spake, they did not hear: but they did evil before mine eyes, and chose [that] in which I delighted not.

66:5 Hear the word of the LORD, ye that tremble at his word; Your brethren that hated you, that cast you out for my name's sake, said, Let the LORD be glorified: but he shall appear to your joy, and they shall be ashamed.

ezekiel said...

Jer 4:1 If thou wilt return, O Israel, saith the LORD, return unto me: and if thou wilt put away thine abominations out of my sight, then shalt thou not remove.

4:2 And thou shalt swear, The LORD liveth, in truth, in judgment, and in righteousness; and the nations shall bless themselves in him, and in him shall they glory.

4:3 For thus saith the LORD to the men of Judah and Jerusalem, Break up your fallow ground, and sow not among thorns.

4:4 Circumcise yourselves to the LORD, and take away the foreskins of your heart, ye men of Judah and inhabitants of Jerusalem: lest my fury come forth like fire, and burn that none can quench [it], because of the evil of your doings.

4:5 Declare ye in Judah, and publish in Jerusalem; and say, Blow ye the trumpet in the land: cry, gather together, and say, Assemble yourselves, and let us go into the defenced cities.

4:6 Set up the standard toward Zion: retire, stay not: for I will bring evil from the north, and a great destruction.

4:7 The lion is come up from his thicket, and the destroyer of the Gentiles is on his way; he is gone forth from his place to make thy land desolate; [and] thy cities shall be laid waste, without an inhabitant.

4:8 For this gird you with sackcloth, lament and howl: for the fierce anger of the LORD is not turned back from us.

4:9 And it shall come to pass at that day, saith the LORD, [that] the heart of the king shall perish, and the heart of the princes; and the priests shall be astonished, and the prophets shall wonder.

4:10 Then said I, Ah, Lord GOD! surely thou hast greatly deceived this people and Jerusalem, saying, Ye shall have peace; whereas the sword reacheth unto the soul.

4:11 At that time shall it be said to this people and to Jerusalem, A dry wind of the high places in the wilderness toward the daughter of my people, not to fan, nor to cleanse,

4:12 [Even] a full wind from those [places] shall come unto me: now also will I give sentence against them.

You are either a circumcised Jew or an uncircumcised Gentile.....No middle ground. Romans 2, Circumcision is of the heart.

Piglet said...

NBBCOF said

Like I've said before, trying to convince people like you encountered today to even consider pulling their heads out of the sand is like trying to teach a pig to sing. It wastes your time and annoys the pig.


Piglet says:

Who says pigs can't sing? :0)

We received our first phone call from a dear friend at BBC today, inquiring as to our whereabouts.

I was so touched. Especially since we've been gone....mmmmm...about six weeks and our TEACHER has YET to call. I think he must be relieved that we are not there to correct his spin on things. :)

Piglet said...

NBBCOF

Oh, and if you REALLY want to annoy a pig, just tell them that "there ain't gonna be no business meetin'". :0(

Lynn said...

Piglet says:

Who says pigs can't sing? :0)

We received our first phone call from a dear friend at BBC today, inquiring as to our whereabouts.

I was so touched. Especially since we've been gone....mmmmm...about six weeks and our TEACHER has YET to call. I think he must be relieved that we are not there to correct his spin on things. :)

10:36 PM, May 08, 2007

Lynn Responds:

Hey Piglet,

I've gone 8 months without anyone calling to see how I am doing. That really tells me they're concerned about me (insert heavy sarcasm here).

Piglet said...

Lynn

That's AWFUL!! Please accept my virtual hug.

sickofthelies said...

My SS teacher told me that PW ' only did it one time" indicating that it was an overeaction to get bent out of shape over it.

Piglet said...

SOTL

Was this before or after it became common knowledge that it occurred over a long period of time?

And besides - once is a sure sign something is REALLY WRONG. You don't just "slip up" and molest your child. Oops, didn't mean to do that (?)

Lynn said...

Yeah. And people wonder why I'm grouchy and stay in a corner. I'm the kind of person who isn't really inclined to socalize with people who don't really have any concern for me.

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