If this doesn't infuriate you, I don't know what will. Read one staff minister's account of the state of things at Bellevue today.
Here's an excerpt:
"I am one on staff who does not agree with the current direction of our beloved church home. I want everyone to know that there are a small group of us on staff, ministers and staffers alike, that are working to get a heart to heart meeting with Dr. Gaines to have our say about how we feel concerning the recent issues concerning Bellevue Baptist Church. We are encouraged that this may be happening in the near future.
"However, we have recently been informed that we are not allowed to have any meetings with Dr. Gaines alone. We have been informed that Mr. David Coombs must be involved in any meetings concerning the direction and future of Bellevue Baptist Church. Most of us do understand this from a managerial standpoint, as Mr. Coombs is Administrative Pastor. It is still somewhat of a strange consideration as we reflect on our past experiences with Dr. Rogers and his ministry."
Remember to sign the Petition to Call Bellevue Baptist Church into an Open Business Meeting and forward the link to your fellow Bellevue members.
646 comments:
1 – 200 of 646 Newer› Newest»My prayers will be with you. I pray the holy spirit goes before you and ears will be opened as a result. Please know that you are appreciated by many hurting sheep.
I pass BBC everyday and am filled with saddness daily as I reflect on were she has been and were she is today. I know others have mentioned this and I, too, feel like there should be a funeral of some kind for her.
I guess until this Easter I was appalled and angry at the decline of our beloved church. Now I am filled with grief and extreme loss.
Oh, great and awesome God, please help us.
sooooooooo
If Steve Gaines has to have DC as his babysitter, who is babysitting DC?
You do not understand why they would not want Brother Steve meeting with a group that is against him, alone??
You do not understand why they would not want Brother Steve meeting with a group that is against him, alone??
2:43 PM, April 29, 2007
Of course we understand. It is because the group is PRO SCRIPTURE and Gaines does not want to have to explain why he ignores it.
For those who are seeking a new church home, be sure to check this out:
A Church for You
...
Just following the troll from the previous thread, folks:
Piglet said...
I find it sad and amusing that anyone is still attempting to take up for Steve Gaines - especially here.
The facts are out and we know what he is. Go try to mislead some folks who don't know and quit wasting your time here, troll.
4:37 PM, April 29, 2007
Piglet said...
Oh, excuse me, the troll must be at the book signing - which I hear, by the way, is actually a fictional novel. :)
4:41 PM, April 29, 2007
Piglet said...
Dear Silent Witness:
My heart goes out to you and I wish you well. But if you all don't get Gaines to fall on his knees, repent, and become a submissive servant to the Lord, all is in vain, my friend.
I might add that if this meeting happens INSTEAD of a larger meeting to inform church members, you've just been had.
Seems we've been working toward that for some time now, and don't think they won't promise you the moon and the stars to keep it from happening.
Not to mention a court order for the documents they have withheld in contmpt of the law - if those documents have to be surrendered it would be a huge embarrassment for them.
BTW, I hold in my hands the minutes to the last meeting at GBC which was April 15th. Boy - you wouldn't believe the details in there - and the pastor's salary! Imagine that! I thought we BBC folks had no RIGHT to this kind of information.
Gee, I guess GBC gives their congregation a little more respect over there.
BBC!! STAND UP AND DEMAND A BUSINESS MEETING AND THESE DOCUMENTS!!!!!! GET A BACKBONE, FOR HEAVENS SAKES - THESE SELF APPOINTED MUCKITY MUCKS ARE RUNNING ALL OVER YOU!!!
(I say YOU because they have not received a penny of our tithe for months now - much to the benefit of MABTS, Lifechoices, and LWF - I might add.)
Piglet: If you are not going to Bellevue and your tithe is going elsewhere, why not run along? Also, have you asked Dr. Spradlin his thoughts on the $3 million motion or this blog?
yes yes yes... sheesh!
what, pray tell, is your point?
sickofthelies said: SG was DELIGHTED to find things the way they were, and has had NO desire to change them. It has put him squarely in charge where no one is ALLOWED to question him. The deacons are not allowed to even SPEAK in the deacons meetings.
Reply: Those are bold faced lies!!
Three thoughts:
1) With what appears to be a more corporate emphasis in the heirarchy of BBC,seems that one of the critical qualifiers for a new pastor would have been to find someone who not only was a skilled preacher but also had the managerial ability to effectively lead a large congregation. If he had that ability perhaps I could understand the excessive salary.
2) A basic principle for effecting change in organizations is "if it ain't broke, don't fix it." This is especially true for consultants who are asked to analyze an organization and make recommendations about how to take it to the next level. Seminaries teach that a pastor going into an existing church shouldn't make any major changes for two years.
3) It appears that the reverend has his own agenda. I would think the pulpit committee agreed with him that major changes should be made immediately, or on whatever time table he deemed necessary. Point is that staff members who disagree are wasting a lot of emotional and mental frustration. The ship has set sail. And as the reverend would say, "If you don't like it, leave."
From my perspective the last 18 months have shown a total lack of mature management skills....spiritual issues aside.
Why,
why don't you respond to socwork????
You keep asking and she/he keeps answering and you continue ignoring.
BTW,really stupid choice of names this time around....same script.
wistq,
Most have "moved on along"...or are you blind? Your two silly and inane questions sound like a broken record..who cares what his thoughts are on either?..and what does it have to do with anything?...it's time for you to move along. I haven't seen one thing you've added to this discussion, except the same tired bologna as your buddies hisserpent, 4545, etc. Run along home...your boss wouldn't like you being here.
Lost. Confused. Frustrated. Embarrassed. These are just some of the feelings that were roaming through the choir this morning. We did not know the SONG we sang but were expected to sing it loud and clear. Why did we not know it? Because we first need to practice it and not by listenting to a CD. Listening to a CD is fine but we need to practice. Also with a little practice we would not sound like a bunch of 6th graders. Jamie needs to understand that some of the older people cannot go up and down stairs like we did this morning. That is an accident waiting to happen. What a good way to get rid of the few choir members that are left. Lost. Confused. Frustrated. Embarrassed. Not too much longer.
truthseeker,
What happened with the stairs?
Do you think there was some intent to weed out any older members?
I understand the emotions you expressed and am so sorry.
We were uncertain on why we went to the stage and lined up and then left and went to the balcony and sat for 15 minutes and then went back to the stage and sang and then left again. Weird.
truthseeker.....
maybe you are getting it finally! The choir is a backup group for the miked singers. I saw that coming the 1st month and when it became more frustrating than fulfilling to participate, I dropped out. You have more grace than I!
witq said
Piglet: If you are not going to Bellevue and your tithe is going elsewhere, why not run along? Also, have you asked Dr. Spradlin his thoughts on the $3 million motion or this blog?
Piglet says:
You'd like us to run along and get out of your way, wouldn't you? :)
What is your hang-up with this 3 million? I don't care, haven't asked and won't.
More importantly, haven't you been banned under another name?
Truthseeker: I can't understand why you would not rehearse for several weeks. I seem to remember it working that way with Dr. Whitmore. So what goes on during choir rehearsal now?
Why: Truthseeker was well within a member's rights to wonder what is going on. It shows a lack of respect and consideration for choir members from the choir director, something that seems to be quite contagious among the leadership.
Eprov: From my perspective the last 18 months have shown a total lack of mature management skills....spiritual issues aside."
Eprov, Long time lurker here...I have to agree with you. Although I do not believe business organizational methods transfer to the Body of Christ...even though most do these days.
However, Just from lurking my suspicion is that the decision was made to bring in Gaines and he has proven to be a BIG embarrassment and probably a liability at this point.
There are most likely some in leadership who see this BUT as in business, people will do anything to save face from bad decisions or from not dealing with it sooner.
They promoted and supported an incompetent (who does not even know scripture) for so long...through trespassing, dreams about Amen's, supporting a pedophile minister and dissing the victim, etc., etc., that it has become crisis managment.
Ergo bringing in the steely 'businessman' to keep the incompetent CEO in line. (Hey, just ordain him!) That is why they cannot have a meeting with Gaines without him there. Gaines is NOT trusted by the circle of leaders who are probably putting their heads together to save not only face but their power. (What is it about mega's that bring out the power brokers? Did Bob Buford start all of this???)
What these staffers think they are going to accomplish with a 'meeting' is beyond me..these folks have proven they have NO respect for staff who do not follow blindly OR for the congregation.... although many will still believe their empty words because they have no scriptural wisdom or discernment.
I really do believe this about grown people saving face. What else could it be? Even they have to see what an incompetent he really is. If you think about it...anyone could train themselves to 'preach'. Being holy is another matter.
You bought yourselves a pig in a poke. A very expensive one who does not even have to work on Wed's!
(Yes, I know that is mean...but know what? I have this deep disgust for men who call themselves pastors who do not care if one of their ministers sodomized his own son. Then ignoring the victim countless times. I have BIG HUGE problems with ignoring scripture by the very ones who are to model and teach it. So call me mean. I call them mockers and Pharisees)
Lydia: Preach on! Welcome to blogland!
lin said:
"I still cannot understand how you think any of that releases Gaines from willfully ignoring scripture and harboring a pedophile minister. We are in the here and now...lets deal with what is happening right now."
"And, you never answered my question: What is Gaines a victim of?"
AR's negligence. He failed to exercise the care of the Church that would made the transition for a new pastor. A prudent person would have seen the comming delima many years earlier and prepared for it.
SG was not released from following scriptural guidelines and though He erred greatly in willfully harboring a pedophile for six months, AR unwillfully harbored him for seventeen years. SG inherited this problem. AR ruled with a soft hand, nevertheless he ruled and SG rules with an "Iron fist" as you say.
You have two different men with very different personality styles and so SG is partially a victim.
Also he is partially a victim of a congregation that put emphasis on a charismatic and loving personality rather than Christ. The leader should not have let this happen and the Church should have seen it. Many of the staff saw it (I'm guessing) and it led to a lot of jealousy and SG walked into this. This does not excuse SG's responsibility for his behavior.
Luke 12:48 . . and to whom men have committed much, of him they will ask the more.
What is in the here and now is a result of what was in the past.
Lydia,
You are singing my song,friend.
I not only think you are right on but I also think the power brokers brought in DC to cover for the financial blunders and deals they made. No other reason to hide the books and get rid of the financial guys.
Unless the people who saw the unaltered books step forward,all is covered and lost now.
Watching History,
Is PW a victim, too?
Ok,
I need for someone who supports Gaines, NO MATTER WHAT to step up to the plate and PLEASE answer this question:
I really really need to know:
Please explain to me how you square SG allowing a pedophile to stay on staff while saying nothing.
Please explain to me how he was not totally repulsed by what PW did to his son.
Those are two questions. Someone, please step up and answer them.
I really need to know how a CHRSTIAN could put other children in danger and then wink at the sodomy of one's own son.
What are you telling yourself about those sins that are allowing you to continue to support SG?
Watchinghisstory said:
SG was not released from following scriptural guidelines and though He erred greatly in willfully harboring a pedophile for six months, AR unwillfully harbored him for seventeen years. SG inherited this problem. AR ruled with a soft hand, nevertheless he ruled and SG rules with an "Iron fist" as you say.
Lynn Responds...
Watchinghisstory....How many times do you have to be told that Rodgers DID NOT KNOW about PW. Mrs. Rogers has said it, even PW himself said so. Given Rogers track record, its safe to say that had Rogers known about the sin...he would have taken care of it IMMEDIATELY!!!!!!!
Get a life!!!
truthseeker said...
Lost. Confused. Frustrated. Embarrassed. These are just some of the feelings that were roaming through the choir this morning. We did not know the SONG we sang but were expected to sing it loud and clear. Why did we not know it? Because we first need to practice it and not by listenting to a CD. Listening to a CD is fine but we need to practice. Also with a little practice we would not sound like a bunch of 6th graders. Jamie needs to understand that some of the older people cannot go up and down stairs like we did this morning. That is an accident waiting to happen. What a good way to get rid of the few choir members that are left. Lost. Confused. Frustrated. Embarrassed. Not too much longer.
Granted, I am not there to observe in person, but having just watched the video of this morning's choir presentation, I'm not too sure what the problem is with the presentation of the song. From the above description, you would think it was a train wreck. Seems like this was bit of a special situation as you were singing along with the Hoppers on one song, which may explain the lack of rehearsal time. I understand the problem with the stairs and Seniors, but like I said, this seemed to have been an unusual situation. Perhaps I would have just given the choir the day off if they were only going to sing one song with the guest artists.
FYI, the most frustrating thing for a minister is being the last to find out (sometimes from the Personnel Committee chairman!) that someone has a problem or frustration with something. While I know you may not initially have access to Jamie, may I suggest trying to speak to your section leader or Choir officers (in a group that size there has to be some sort of organization) to express your concern.
Today was kind of a strange day at BBC and it started with a guest musical group called the Hopper family which sung several songs and everything took place kind of in a strange order. Then the message today was called running the race and oddly enough the oldest daughter of the Gaines family ran in some big race in Nasville yesterday and Steve and the other family members were in attendance at the race so we heard quite a bit about that being compared to the spiritual race in life. Steve mentioned being kind of annoyed by this group of cheerleaders at the race and then they showed a picture of the first place female winner and male winner of the race on the screens at Church and I felt that was kind of an odd thing to show at a Church service on Sunday morning. Then tonight was the night for the preteen musical and I felt it was one of the best ever put on and it was about Nascar and before the musical there was a display of race cars at Church. The bad thing was attendance for the musical was only fair and some people left when they realized it was a Childrens musical and not a regular service and to me I felt that was sad and the musical ended just barely after seven and a sermon by Gaines would have lasted longer.
sotl
yes, the pedophile was himself abused by his father as I remember the statement. So he was himself a victim and as victims sometimes do they continue the sinful cycle. This does not excuse him at all but in a way, help to explain it.
I know that SG really erred in hiding the pedophile. What led him to this error is beyond me.
WatchingHistory,
Ok, I'm only going to say this to you once. So read my words VERY carefully:
Not all adult survivors of incest become perpetrators, but many, if not most, perpetrators were abused.
I do not like re-victimizing those of US who were victimized as children by painting us as though we grew up to become perps.
Let me tell you something: If anyone, and i mean anyone EVER touched my child, I can guarantee that they would not live to do it again.
Which brings us to Mrs. PW. She should go to jail, too. It takes two parents to perpetrate sexual abuse against a child: one to do it and one to FAIL TO PROTECT THEIR CHILD.
The fact that PW made the CHOICE to become a perpetrator is no excuse for his behavior. They should put him UNDER the jail for what he did.
And the same can be said for SG, who became an accomplice to any crime that PW may have perpetrated in the 6 months that he was winking at the sin of PW.
PW lost his " victim" status when he chose to victimize his child, or any other children that he may have victimized. The average number of victims that a pedaphile has is 117. One in 3 girls and one in 4 boys will be sexually abused before their 18th birthday.
Given those numbers, it is highly doubtful that PW had only one victim. There is a reason why he was not allowed to be around his grandchildren, yet SG felt that he was perfectly safe to be around the children of BBC.
But sorry, your selling of PW as a victim isn't going to cut it with me. I am not buying it.
inmemphis said
The bad thing was attendance for the musical was only fair and some people left when they realized it was a Childrens musical and not a regular service and to me I felt that was sad and the musical ended just barely after seven
Yes this is very sad.....I can remember when the childrens musical programs would have a great attendance. Parents, Grandparents, Friends and just church members would all be there to watch and listen.
Inmemphis said...
Then tonight was the night for the preteen musical and I felt it was one of the best ever put on and it was about Nascar and before the musical there was a display of race cars at Church. The bad thing was attendance for the musical was only fair and some people left when they realized it was a Childrens musical and not a regular service and to me I felt that was sad and the musical ended just barely after seven and a sermon by Gaines would have lasted longer.
*******
Nascar?!!! Are you kidding me? And you think they left because it was a children's musical?
Where's the focus now at Bellevue?
Nevermind. I already know the answer and I can't even see the hearts of those involved; but, I know WHO can.
A display of RACE CARS?
Now that's about the dummest (SP) I ever heard of.
lynn said:
Watchinghisstory....How many times do you have to be told that Rodgers DID NOT KNOW about PW. Mrs. Rogers has said it, even PW himself said so. Given Rogers track record, its safe to say that had Rogers known about the sin...he would have taken care of it IMMEDIATELY!!!!!!!
How many times have I said that I knew that AR didn't know. He should have had the spiritual prudence to have found out about it. It is a sad epitaph that a pedophile was able to conceal his sin before such a great man. Whether it was you, me or AR it would be a sad legacy.
It is a wrong assumption that you say that given AR's track record he would have taken care of it immediately. He did not know and we have no idea what he would have done. We can only say what we hope he would have done.
sotl, I am as mystified and repulsed as you about why SG would harbor a pedophile and put to risk the children at the church. It was absolutely wrong and I do not support him at all.
It just seems to me that God has a purpose in all this and I shutter to think of the reasons.
It should cause us all great and small to fall on our face before God and have him search our hearts.
Dear WatchingHistory: Tell me you are kidding? I have just read several of your last posts. Steve Gaines is a victim of Adrian Rogers? No way.
Yes, there was an admission that PW was abused as a minor but NO WHERE did it say it was his father. But he does not get a free pass even on that. I too was abused but I have not abused. Neither has SOTL and many other victims I know. It is wrong to "assume" that victims will abuse. Sure some do but not like you are implying. And to use that as an excuse to excuse him abusing his son is WRONG!! There is nothing to explain not when it comes to protecting our children.
As for Steve Gaines' excuses; it is time for him to go. Period. I am sick of the continued excuses.
David Brown
Come on folks...it was a children's musical. Every children's musical written for the last 40 years has had some sort of theme to it. Even the old Psalty ones. I would imagine the theme to this one was actually race cars in general than specific NASCAR references.
sotl
you did not read my reply correctly. I never tried to sell you anything about him being a victim and I agree with you completely, including the wife and SG.
Many victims break the cycle and are healed by a loving God. Your testimony supports that and I praise God.
db
couldn't agree with you more. There is no excuse for the abuses of the pedophile and I am sorry that you read it that way.
Dear Watching: Neither SOTL nor I read your post wrong. You were giving it as explanation" for his action.
And there is no "cycle" to break.
David Brown
watchinghistory said:
He should have had the spiritual prudence to have found out about it. It is a sad epitaph that a pedophile was able to conceal his sin before such a great man. Whether it was you, me or AR it would be a sad legacy.
sotl says:
I find this statement repulsive. To expect that AR should have been able to look into this sick guy's head and know what he was doing to his son is BEYOND THE PALE.
BHOK ( banging head on keyboard)
Watching,
What's up? Is someone else posting for you now or did you get that pill from Charlie Fox?
You have done your best to beat up on US because of your hang up on Bro R not foreseeing all the sins that would come to BBC .
Now you are agreeing with SOTL.??
Not buying the switch. You will turn again.
And by the way,
Even tho I was personally asked by a deacon officer
WHEN
I wanted to abuse my children....
because that is the C they are feeding these blind mice.....
I also have never abused mine....
they would both be in your face for even thinking anything like that about their mom.
Go back to pushing your theology which you make uninviting when you keep switching personalities.
I for one won't buy anything from you
so you see ....you mess up your own forum to cram your theology down our throats when you revert back to bashing someone we loved.
You are not God and do not see all or know all ...either.
SOTL: Be careful; you're fixin' to get a headache!
watching history
Let me ATTEMPT to explain what is so RIDICULOUS about your statement.
Those of us that were abused suffered in silence. If it were possible that there was a human being that could have looked at ME and known right offhand what was going on in my life, then I wouldn't have suffered in silence would I?
If there had been a human being that could have looked at my stepfather, a well respected man in the community, and known by looking at him what was going on, then I wouldn't have suffered in silence.
In a way, you are denying that children are REALLY abused becuase in your mind, somehow, you think that that perps carry some trademark that someone with a certain insight or certain wisdom would be able to see...like they have this invisible "666" on their forheads that only the spiritually gifted can see.
If what you are saying is true, then none of us were REALLY abused. Because after all, no one saw the " secret code" on the abuser, so therefore, it must not have happened.
So knock it off about AR!! You are offending all of us by your innane comments. And it proves that you know NOTHING, i mean, ABSOLUTELY NOTHING about child sexual abuse.
Watching history
Are you into "word of knowledge" - because I know you're not expecting an SBC pastor to be psychic.
I'm really tired of your repeated barbs at Dr. R - especially on this topic. Have you not EVER misjudged anyone?
ALL ...
because accuracy matters in this area.
PW is a sexual predator....
not a pedaphile.
He was and is a threat to the weak and the vulnerable....
not just the young ones.
He preyed on at least 6 women that I am personally aware of.
Does it bother any of you thinking people
that sexual ABUSE ,SIN,CRIME, of a child was called
by the BBC bogus investigative board...
SEXUAL ACTS.
Is a child victim ABUSED by an adult sexual predator ?
or do we...
the ones called to protect the weak and the wounded ....
call abuse of a child sexual acts?
Don't eat what this corrupt admin feed you...it is contaminated.
Acts 5:1-3
1But a certain man named Ananias, with Sapphira his wife, sold a possession,
2And kept back part of the price, his wife also being privy to it, and brought a certain part, and laid it at the apostles' feet.
3But Peter said, Ananias, why hath Satan filled thine heart to lie to the Holy Ghost, and to keep back part of the price of the land?
Peter misjudged people at Antioch and we all do but the Holy Ghost revealed this to Peter. This is not psychic powers.
Ananias did not wear the words "thief" on his forehead.
where's johnny carson and carniac the magnificent when you need him?
Watching....just shut up about sexual abuse and Bro Rogers.....
go obsess about your theology
and stop adding to the injury BBC has inflicted on us.
gmommy,
you tell him!
FACT:
A BBC ordained minister of 34 years sodomized his son for 18 months 17 years ago.
FACT:
God knew about it.
watching history:
P.S.
AR isn't God.
sotl
Peter wasn't either
Ok, WatchingHistory, you win:
Unless a spiritually gifted person can see some kind of hidden symbol on a sexual pervert, they aren't abusing anyone and if someone accuses them of same, they are lying becuase the symbol isn't there.
You happy now?
watchinghistory,
So a pastor should know everything God does? What are you really saying? Do you even know?
Does anyone know how many ministers on staff at bellevue have been caught looking at porn on the internet at church and are still on staff?
Watching....
What do you expect people to do...call Dionne Warwick and her psychic friends!?!?!?
Seriously though....if you go through the history books.....a lot of criminals have put up fronts that have fooled even the most discerning of people. No one is perfect. Last I checked, unless this planet has been taken over by people from Betazed, we cannot read minds!
SOTL,
The "melt down" I experienced
compliments of the lies and minimizing language
of the JOKE
called the investigative board,
the orchestated shut down of the bogus meeting
while the victim of the
staff sexual deviant ...
was again ignored by the unqualified Sr Pastor of BBC
who believes scripture qualifications for a minister is a "slippery slope"
has progressed to more than a few bad days and a some anxiety issues.
you are having major headaches since SG failed to do his job.
What about the other victims...
and the most important one ...
who have suffered because of this stupidity and incompetance and willful disobedience of scripture!
Then this guy gets on here and further injures with his vendetta against the SBC and Brother Rogers. NO!
I am mean..
I don't put myself on a holier than thou pedastal.....
so Watching and WHY
jump off the one you put yourself on....or fall off,
whatever.
bonds,
Do you mean since SG has come?
I only know of one that was caught when AR was there and he was fired.
all,
I have come to the conclusion that WH has to have been rebuked by Dr Rogers at some point and he has yet to "get over it"! Why else would he continue to attack a dead man who is not here to rebuke his attacks? This is the lowest of the low. What kind of Christian would harbor such anger and remain indwelt with rage against a dead man of God? I understand some events in our lives, such as those who have been sexually assaulted, will leave deep and lifelong wounds that well up rage inside our hearts, but how in the world did WH become "victimized" by Dr Rogers?? I cannot imagine the reason - pray tell WH, please tell us what he did to you PERSONALLY that would cause you to harbor such hatred?
God didn't tell Peter everything but he did tell him about Ananias and Sapphira's sin.
I know of more than 1 under AR and still on staff. My understanding is that they have recovered and have been going through therapy for a while.
bonds,
Then why would 1 get fired and the others not?
What is it with these folks who want to attack AR when he is not here to defend himself?
You people need to move on.
bonds,
I believe the truth about that one would be staggering.
Several deacons and power brokers that support SG
KNEW about the 5 year affair of a certain decision power broker.
Had some of our true elder members not pushed the issue...
he would still be making decisions for BBC while having his knee slapped under the table.
There is deep sexual sin in the leadership.
Watching said, God didn't tell Peter everything but he did tell him about Ananias and Sapphira's sin.
reply: So with your superior spiritual insight, you know that God told AR about PW. Well, since you are blessed with this superior insight,why didn't you take care of it?
What planet are you from?
OK Bonds,
If you are going to piggy back watching.....NASS,call 911 for me now!
No more ,please.
yeah, what oc said.
I am not saying anything against AR(as I cannot explain what he ment in my life), but I am saying that most everyone does deserve a second chance. SG has made mistakes but alot of the issues that have come up were here before SG.
Why can't people just behave themselves?
Dr. Rogers once said that if you are busy rowing the boat, you won't have time to rock the boat.
Straighten up!
Bonds,
Ok, you now have my attention.
Are you insenuating that SG should be given a second chance, EVEN THOUGH he KNOWINGLY allowed a pedophile to roam the halls of BBC, putting our children at risk?
Tell me, Bonds, with that attitude, what would you say to a child that was molested by PW during that time period?
Would you say that he deserved a second chance? Would you STILL say that SG deserves a second chance?
So adults deserve second chances, even though they pose a risk to children....Their second chance is more important than protecting children.
Do you have children? Do you protect your children? Do you think that the children of BBC deserved protecting?
You can't have it both ways. Either you think that SG and PW deserved second chances OR you think that the children deserved protection.
Which side are you on?
I'm thinkin that you would not say such an ignorant thing if you had ANY idea AT ALL about what you are talking about.
....lets pay the guy tons more money and big bucks to the sr Brute that covers for him
so he can have a second chance
at bringing MORE national shame to BBC....and not believe he did a thing wrong.....
what else can he do??? right???
How about he agrees to work for free to restore integrity to the church???
How about the leaders that control all step down?
That may constitute a 2nd chance!
bellevue staffer,
Whether sickofthelies is who you think or not, it is NONE OF YOUR BUSINESS...
What kind of an insensitive clod are you?
When NASS, the blog administrator, sees that you are delving into personal names, your post will be deleted.
Bogus BBC staffer,
That game has been played...so go play with your little friend.
torturing any animals yet,C???
This is a blog.
Go to SOTL's face if you want to play stupid games. I'll come along so you can try and intimidate me too....my son reminds me often that he would love to have a nice discussion with you about your issues with other people's mothers.
I will reveal my name to you, sickofthelies, if you email me.
Watching...
happy with the results of your agenda????
jump right off that know it all box of yours.
sickofthelies said...
Bonds,
Ok, you now have my attention.
Are you insenuating that SG should be given a second chance, EVEN THOUGH he KNOWINGLY allowed a pedophile to roam the halls of BBC, putting our children at risk?
First of all I am glad I got your attention. Second there are pedophiles or past pedophiles most likely walking the halls of most churches and that is very disturbing thing for me. Do I think SG made a bad decision when he first found out about this? Most likely he did but he did correct his mistake. I was not there when he was told the information, but can only imagine how it was presented to him after 17 years. The anger should be geared towards PW and his wife for not bringing this forward years ago.
Third, I do have children at bellevue and I feel 99% confident that they are extremely safe. I cannot feel 100% anywhere because there are no background checks of peoples heart, but Bellevue has always been good at putting at least 2 people in every childs room and putting our children first and that has not changed. I love my children more than I my life and I would hope that no one on the website will question that.
gmommylv,
Could you please expand on what you are talking about? Torturing animals? Where did that come from?
I think you have me confused with someone else. You are free to email me too.
gmommylv,
Let me go with you. Please.
Bonds,
Is this staffer one of the creeps you think is recovered???
gmommylv said...
....lets pay the guy tons more money and big bucks to the sr Brute that covers for him
So what did you have to do to get your second chance?
watching hisssstory...
You sir are a coward. Your constant attack on AR is sickening. No one here worships AR. The members of Bellevue I have known have more respect for him and his family than to degrade his legacy.
If you know Christ you will meet AR again one day. That's the thing about the resurrection from the dead. That should be an interesting encounter.
I hope that you are not in leadership at Bellevue. Your smug, condescending attacks are predictable as they are repulsive. You are adding nothing to any discussion here.
bonds,
let me try again with you:
STEVE GAINES ALLOWED A MAN THAT HE KNEW HAD SODOMIZED HIS OWN SON WALK THE HALLS OF BBC.
THIS PUT YOUR CHILDREN AT RISK.
WHAT PART OF THAT DO YOU NOT UDNERSTAND?
I am still waiting for a reply or at least an email with a reply to my questions....an answer will be appreciated.
bogus staffer,
No confusion and no playing stupid with you.
OC,thanks....I will certainly take you up on it.
Bonds,
I am trying to think of a Biblical word to describe what I am thinking.
None
so maybe know it all ,holier than thous, from the blog can help out..
OH, no chance....they are only interested in kicking the wounded....and the dead.
bellevuestaffer,
That's enough. Take a hike.
The children at Bellevue have been at great risk for the last 17 years.
I'm thinking I will gather up Cary Sidham's emails and blog posts and send them to his parents.
I think that if I were his mother, I would want to know what my child has been up to.
But right now, I think I should go and get packed for the CRUISE!!!
SOTL,
lets back off.
These cowards are not worth it.
at least 2 real men are present now.(25+ and OC)
Bellevuestaffer...
how do you like the atmosphere of Bellevue nowadays? Do you have any idea how many people have left? Do you have any idea how many decades of their lives were spent as members of Bellevue? Do you have any idea of the pain that is being felt by those who see their church dying? The finances are in full nose-dive... the staff is divided.... the membership is divided... the community is looking on in utter disbelief at a melt-down that NO ONE would have ever predicted for Bellevue. Do you care?
I have already said that SG most likely made a mistake (wasn't there in the meeting). Do you know the background of everyone in the church or even your class? I NEVER felt that my children were in danger because if the OUTSTANDING leaders that we have in the childrens area. I put my trust in God. I felt that if SG would have been given all the information at first he would have taken care of it right away. He has children. You also have to ask yourself what SG had to gain by keeping him on staff in the first place. The answer is nothing.
25,
He doesn't care. He's just a kid who thinks he knows it all.
" I have already said that SG most likely made a mistake "
well, Bonds, that pretty much says it all.
How's that sand down there..tell me, does it get in your eyes, I mean, with your head SO FAR DOWN IN IT!!!
bonds...
you don't know what you are talking about. You are way behind... Read the timeline at IDC. Integritydoescount.com
Integritydoescount.com
is that in the old or new testament
sickofthelies said...
25,
He doesn't care. He's just a kid who thinks he knows it all.
12:03 AM, April 30, 2007
Response:
Ohhhh... Bonds is ACErtain poster... should've known.
nuff said.
Bonds said, You also have to ask yourself what SG had to gain by keeping him on staff in the first place. The answer is nothing.
reply: Maybe keeping the scandal quiet? Could this be possible?
25
And we set sail soon.
Me thinks that a little boy is going to be doing some pouting, thinking about what could have been.
OH my gosh...nothing to gain.......
25+,
I went to an SBC church today. The pastor was as nice as he could be.....not arrogant,open,loving...
BUT
he used basically the same outline of a sermon that SG used and preached. The scriptures were pulled from all over the Bible...with no explanation of the text...to fit the point of the message.
This pastor was very careful to preface..."only if the pastor is a man of integrity that obeys scripture.."....but it was still the same Unity,authority,grow in numbers baby food with an agenda sermon.
I didn't get to open my Bible.
The music ....(this is a personal taste thing,I know) was really close to "Santana"....I am so afraid this is the trend dripping down from the top.....I wanted to cry.
encouragement????
How come when someone does say something negative about AR's ministry it is attacking the dead, but most people on this website use alot of what he said that is positive. As much as I loved AR, I know that he was a human and has made mistakes.
And YES there are many people at BBC that worship AR, lets get get real
bonds,
we are waaay past not knowing what was said in ' the meeting'..
" the report" told us what was said and what was known when.
You are obviously avoiding the truth so that you will not have to deal with it.
oc said...
Bonds said, You also have to ask yourself what SG had to gain by keeping him on staff in the first place. The answer is nothing.
reply: Maybe keeping the scandal quiet? Could this be possible?
This happened 17 years ago! Maybe people would have thought of PW as being forced out by SG and PW would have been a victim? Wow good point.
OC,
It appears to me that people with secret sin in their own lives....cover for other secret sin keepers...just my experience,
Anytime scripture is just a guideline or a slippery slope to a minister....big trouble.
what else did he have to gain...big bucks.
Thanks for the backup,friend.
Hey ACE Bonds,
I hear those cruises are reeeallly nice. Ever almost been on one?
Inquiring minds want to know.
Bond said:
"How come when someone does say something negative about AR's ministry it is attacking the dead, but most people on this website use alot of what he said that is positive"
LOL, ok...I'm starting to think that i am talking to a brick wall.
When you say negative things about a dead person, that's not nice. Because he is not here to defend himself.
When you say nice things about a dead person, that's nice, and is perfectly acceptable behavior in polite society. You are not putting the dead person in a position to have to defend himself.
SHEESH....
bonds,
You just don't get it. I'm done.
gmommylv,
Not all SBC preachers agree with the PDL circus. I know quite a few who like to see families worship together and who enjoy hymns that are theologically correct and that don't repeat the same line until you are whirling like a dervish.
25
ROFL!!!!!!!!!!!
ahhh, i can hardly wait to feel the ocean breeze and the smell of coppertone!!!
The first thing I"m going to do is get me one of those red drinks with a little umbrella in it!!
17 years ago there were important SBC meetings beginning with San Antonio and committee meetings, strategy sessions, committee meetings, 2000 BF&M to promote, conventions and transitions to maintain so there was not much time to devote to regular pastoral duties. It would be easy for a pedophile to walk the halls freely and the children put in danger.
Its Barry Bonds, you know the steroid user or at least that is what has been reported. WOW reminds me of someone else?
NON ALCOHOLIC, of course!
I also read the news about SG's having another job? Is that true?
You gotta hand it to that watchinghistory dude, he just isnt' gonna give it up. Whatever beef he had with our dear Dr. Rogers didn't die with him. He's determined to keep that grudge going for an eternity.
Only cowards attack the dead.
Sotl,
Happy Cruisin' :) At least if you play cards, you won't have an ace up your sleeve.
watchinghissssstory,
Your constant attempt to provoke this board fits the troll profile to a "T"
Provoking fellow christians is not exactly a fruit of the Holy Spirit. What is its source for you? The flesh or the devil?
Hey, I"ve been told that BBC put in their bulletin today a correction about the lie they told at the " non-celebration day"..where they said that they had 1500 to join the church. Today they admitted that it was just over 1300.
Has anyone EVER seen a correcton in the BBC bulletin before now?
Thank you Steve Gaines for another first!!!
25+
It is so hard still to drum up what it takes to visit and end up wanting to cry or run out.
I know I could go to GTB while MS and JW are there but have my reservations about getting comfortable there.
Any chance you would pass a few suggestions onto NASS???
I really thought today while in the service that I would go home ,sit on my floor and sing from my blue hymn book and read scripture out loud.
my daughter insists that I cannot stay home.
I wonder if Thing 1 Bonds and Thing 2 Watchinghisssssstory have the same last name?
OC,
Shall i send you a post card from THE CARIBBEAN????
It will say:
The scenery is here, wish you were beautiful!!!
( not really, we all know you are beautiful)
25+yrs@BBC said...
gmommylv,
Not all SBC preachers agree with the PDL circus. I know quite a few who like to see families worship together and who enjoy hymns that are theologically correct and that don't repeat the same line until you are whirling like a dervish.
Why would families not worship together? And have you not opened up a hymnal in a while.
bonds,
A HYMNAL????
When was the last time you went to church? About 10 years ago?
Wow, now I am really confused. SG's counted those figures himself and fired someone to keep them quite and then someone else came along and broke the real news. So instead of thanking our Lord and Savior for the CORRECT number of souls saved we will bash SG's for creating this lie. SG's sure is busy in this church.
gmommylv...
I think that people thought for a long time that bigger meant better. You may find that there are still some smaller churches out there that are not on the PDL koolaid.
sotl,
uh, sure, thanks,...I think. :)
Hey ACE Bonds,
Do Viola's have a sad sound when cruise ships leave the harbor? Ot do they just screech?
Bonds said, SG's sure is busy in this church.
reply: not on Wednesdays.
Actually I went to a church out of town last month with hymnals and I even went to Bellevue who still has hymnals but they also still have those big screen movie tv's. Wow not sure about having those big screens in church. Next thing you know we will be watch Barney recite the pledge of allegiance.
Bonds,
When was the last time that a hymn # was posted so that you can turn to your hymnal?
You are not given a choice anymore.
There is no corresponding number in the bulletin to the hymn.
I'm starting to think that you haven't been to church in a very long time.
oc said...
Bonds said, SG's sure is busy in this church.
reply: not on Wednesdays.
To busy counting everything and watching videos of who voted against his agenda.
By the way did AR preach every Wed night? Can't remember
25+,
You are cracking me up...I needed that,thank you!!!
You used the liguid beverage word...shhhh....maybe NASS is in her parents basement and won't catch it!!
I want small...no more megas...but still need help.....
I am whispering this so no one else can hear.....desire a certain level of education or deep scripture study
(forgot PHD's guarantee nothing)....want to go forward,not backwards.
Before the PW thing brought me into this nightmare...that was my gut on you know who...was a move backwards not forward.
bonds,
There seems to be alot you don't remember. Like the fact you were banned for being an idiot before and will soon be again.
WEll, I'm off to bed to dream of warm ocean breezes, sand between my toes, the hot sun beating down on my shoulders, the gentle rocking of the ship, red drinks with little umbrellas.
Ah, such is life.
oc said...
bonds,
There seems to be alot you don't remember. Like the fact you were banned for being an idiot before and will soon be again.
Wow, how Christ like. Sorry to tell you though I am a first timer here on this website. Calling me an idiot is kind of out there since you don't know me. But I will let this one slide and I forgive you. And why would one get banned from this website? Is there a dictator here?
relax and be safe!!!
oc,25+,nass in the basement.....
good night!
"Rick Warren has been used to challenge my thinking in the area of church growth in an incredible way. This book is on the must-read list for every pastor."--Adrian Rogers, Pastor, Bellevue Baptist Church, Memphis, Tennessee
AR preached a CGM sermon on a WED night 5 or 6 years ago. That was when red flags went up for me about Bellevue. I knew then why Bellevue was a mega-church and AR clearly enunciated it that night.
Of coarse if I am against CGM and Warrenism I harbor anger, and full of hatred, smug, rage, devil inspired and told to "shut up" and I am "superior spiritually"
All because I just see the obvious.
Oh brother, Goodnight.
Watchinghisssssstory said:
"All because I just see the obvious."
Reply:
No... all because you are a coward who attacks someone who cannot answer for himself.
I should be in bed already, but I have a few things to say.
I am SO thankful and blessed to have sat under Dr. Adrian Rogers for these last 25 years.
He loved his flock. He had time for people and took a genuine interest in them.
He was an honorable man who never brought shame upon the Lord or His church.
He had the love of Jesus always in his face. His countenance shined.
His focus was on Jesus alone, never himself. Jesus was glorified in the life of this man, not perfect, but blameless.
He brought the scriptures alive for me as a young married woman (just a baby then) and made me hunger for the word.
He valued the truth over unity. Jesus said "I am the way, the TRUTH, and the life.." To deny truth is to deny Christ.
I loved my pastor. I have grown to love the Lord more because of his example.
He is sorely missed by our family.
watching,
Brother I don't know what's going on these days, but you seem to have departed from the demeanor which you exhibited when you first appeared on my blog. I don't understand why your focus is so intent on all that's wrong at BBC or the SBC. Understand, I agree that things are in a mess, but to lay all that's wrong with both institutions at the feet of Adrian Rogers is just wrong. As far as the SBC is concerned and the fact that it's been overrun with CGM philosophy, cannot be laid at the feet of AR. You're going to have to go back a lot further to see what set this denomination up for that...about 100 yrs. It was around that time that the SBC began to be led toward a more experience-oriented theology, and the denomination itself was seen as something to be promoted. As for BBC, while I will readily admit that I was often at variance with Dr. Rogers on some theological points, I never doubted for an instant his integrity, his love for Christ, his family and Christ's church. Dr. Rogers, just like you and I and every other human being who's ever lived, are not afforded the ability to see around corners, so to say that he "should" have seen what was coming is ludicrous. Even the most discerning person on Earth cannot see all things...if that were true, then God would have to give up His throne, which ain't gonna happen. The current BBC by-laws can only suffice when a man of integrity occupies the pulpit, and is surrounded by men of the same character. In some sense, I guess he may have done BBC a disservice by not strengthening those by-laws before his departure, but then again these are the same by-laws in place under Drs. Pollard, and Lee, and presented no problems. I agree that there are many BBCers who worshiped and in some sense still worship at the feet of AR, and that I do not agree with, but neither do I agree with besmirching his character, when he is not here to defend himself. The condition of the churches and seminaries of the SBC when the "battle for the Bible" took place is well documented. It was real. Was it the whole war?....no...the need for revival and reform goes on, but God grants revival and reform one heart at a time..when individual hearts are revived, then our churches and denomination will follow. There are forces and trends at work in this world more powerful than Dr. Rogers, you or I, or anyone else. Only the power of God can change things. Should we stand?...of course, but we must always remember who our source and resource is...only God can change hearts. Try focusing on the source of the solution, for "the fervent effectual prayer of a righteous man availeth much." jmo
James 5:17-20 (King James Version)
17Elias was a man subject to like passions as we are, and he prayed earnestly that it might not rain: and it rained not on the earth by the space of three years and six months.
18And he prayed again, and the heaven gave rain, and the earth brought forth her fruit.
19Brethren, if any of you do err from the truth, and one convert him;
20Let him know, that he which converteth the sinner from the error of his way shall save a soul from death, and shall hide a multitude of sins.
History Lesson of who is WHS,
WatchingHISstory said...
My intro was in the 70's and as a pastor for 25 years I recognized a Church growth message at Bellevue on a Wednersday night five or six years ago. As a former pentecostal minister who was looking for a good Baptist church I knew that Bellevue was deffinitely not the place for good solid preaching which is my main criteria for a church. The good Word must be declared! Everything else takes back seat. I was opposed to the emerging church and Belevue was emergent in my opinion. The sermon I heard that night was what most of you are opposing. You might be biting off more than you can chew.
9:33 PM, March 20, 2007
GMommy: Come visit with me.
25+: Please email me.
Aog
With all my heart and to you of all people who post here who I believe has a like minded-heart, I say that I am crying to God for a solution to todays problems. It is the God of Elijah I am focusing on. What Bellevue needs desperately is for the God of Elijah to intervene and he is not looking for Elijahs.
He is looking for people like you and me who are subject to the same passions as Elijah and like many others on this blog. His solutions are not found in great men like AR (and he was great) but in men like us who are willing to post our passions as uncomfortable as thoes passions are to the unbelievers and believe that the God who starts and stops the rains will respond.
AR failed to understand this truth when he needed it most. And God put a pedophile in the way to draw us to him and away from men.
God hates self-determination even when it is found in the very best of men.
WHS,
A former pentecostal minister, with a lot of venom.
AR is not worshipped as an idol, by members of BBC. He was and is, RESPECTED AND LOVED.
He is very much respected as a man of God, who was after God's own heart.
He was a man of exemplary integrity. He was a pastor that EARNED the respect of his congregation.
Please make peace with God and yourself with whatever "the thorn in your side is with AR".
You were, at one time, a minister. Why do you come on here and cause further pain to all of us that are hurting over what is happening in our church?
Please, please drop this vendetta once and for all, for your sake and ours.
17 years ago when the "drop out dad" was being introduced to the SBC, the church was told that the father should be the primary source of teaching in the home and the absentee father was criticized for neglecting his role.
The man who stands before God right now knows that what I am writing is the truth. He understands negligence and He knows that his negligence is the primary source of BBC's problems.
He like many father's today are so busying saving the world that they forget the home.
gmommylv said, "I want small...no more megas...but still need help....."
Reply: Small is not necessarily a refuge either sorry to say.
watching.....
All I can say is WOW. Unless you are a prophet which is doubtful, your comments are reckless and divisive. Your words are not healing, encouraging, uplifting or even necessary. I was not a 'fan' of AR, but that had to do with personal taste. I have no unction from the Holy Spirit to allow thoughts like you are writing, and certainly not to write them down for others to read. Dr. Lee said in his declining years, when asked what he would change about his ministry, that he would 'try to be a greater blessing to people.' That's good advice for all of us!
In our congretational approved Church ?? like Bellevue, answer this.
When did we vote on giving severance packages to six current staff members because they don't fully support the Pastor?
This is in a sense paying them off to speak their minds "behind closed doors".
How much cash are we paying in severance to these six staff members?
If we don't ask questions now, it will be done and toooo late!
The man who stands before God right now knows that what I am writing is the truth. He understands negligence and He knows that his negligence is the primary source of BBC's problems.
He like many father's today are so busying saving the world that they forget the home.
Mr. Page,
Do I understand you to accuse AR of neglecting his family? And therefore, to be primary source of BBC's problems?
While any Pastor and his family must deal with "life in a fish bowl" to some degree, I have heard each of the Rogers' children proudly say that the man we saw in the pulpit was the same man they saw at home. (Although I never saw him in his pj's, I do know he put them on one leg at a time!)
I don't think they suffered neglect of the magnitude that it has made them bitter... like you are.
I will pray for you -
Abba, Father, Please make Yourself known to Charles today? Let him see Your love, expressed through someone with skin on.
Allow him to bring his own hurts and sorrows to you, because he chooses to. Let his free will be used for Your glory. You do not force Your perfect soverign grace upon anyone ~ You are too much a gentleman for that.
Woo Charles with Your Holy Spirit, and wrap him in the love of a perfect Father who knows the needs and wants of His Son.
Thank You for loving us so much that Your Son came down here to invite us to come Home with You.
May this be the day of salvation for someone reading this blog.
In Jesus' Name, I pray.
Amen
Watchinghisssstory said:
"aog
With all my heart and to you of all people who post here who I believe has a like minded-heart, I say that I am crying to God for a solution to todays problems."
Response:
Then do so in your prayer closet and stop mentioning the former pastor in nearly every post.
Watchinghisssstory said:
"He is looking for people like you and me who are subject to the same passions as Elijah and like many others on this blog. His solutions are not found in great men like AR (and he was great) but in men like us who are willing to post our passions as uncomfortable as thoes passions are to the unbelievers and believe that the God who starts and stops the rains will respond."
Response:
watchinghisstory....
God isn't going to "respond" to you on this blog directly. Try prayer.
There are quite a few who post on here who hold the doctrines of grace AND who see the lack of discernment and balance in any poster who comes here to place the focus on the former pastor imo.
aog gave you good and biblical advice to pray about your concerns rather than further embarrass yourself and not help your cause. If you continue to fire away at the former pastor, you will just become a messy, emotional squeeky wheel churning out a predictable sound--but accomplishing only hurt feelings on the part of those who loved the former pastor.
These severance packages are currently being worked-up. I would guess in the next month or so it will be announced to the church which staff are opting to take the money and run.
What a sad display of faith. My dad always said money will make people do or not do just about anything.
CC, You seem to know something that is not yet common knowledge. What would you suggest we do with the "information" you are feeding us?
Perhaps calling the Church and ask that the congregation have a vote in this. Don't be surprised if you find that no one knows "yet" of this.
Voice your concern of this anyway.
If you figure these 6 staff making maybe $70,000 to $80,000 each and you give, oh say a 6 month severance. That comes to a total of well over $200,000 payment plus insurance, do the math.
I'm not even sure if all of the current staff members know this is being worked-up.
Let's pray they will not take it and instead speak out.
Call the Church and ask that the congregation vote on any severance packages.
CaptainCook said...
In our congretational approved Church ?? like Bellevue, answer this.
When did we vote on giving severance packages to six current staff members because they don't fully support the Pastor?
This is in a sense paying them off to speak their minds "behind closed doors".
9:58 AM, April 30, 2007
Response:
Six more staff members leaving... Just because no one has the courage to deal with the one who really needs to go. Uprooting the lives of thousands of members... uprooting the lives and ministries of many staff... villifying anyone who objects... demonizing anyone who wants the members to have a real business meeting where problems can be dealt with... Bellevue has been turned inside out... By the time people wake up, the church may have a new name on the sign... That would just make formal what many already know--Bellevue has changed beyond recognition.
jmo
sotl and gmommylv,
GOOD GUYS:
concernedformerstaffer@hotmail.com
BAD GUY:
bellevuestaffer@gmail.com
DO NOT e-mail the gmail account
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
yet!
;o)
Has anyone noticed that BBC is running services on TV from over a year ago - could attendance be down and they don't want people on TV to see it?
Just wondering.....
karen
Why said...
Why is the question? said...
You do not understand why they would not want Brother Steve meeting with a group that is against him, alone??
2:43 PM, April 29, 2007
Steve refused to meet with Mark Sharpe and Richard Emerson over a year ago - now he refuses to meet with a bigger group. If he had met with Mark and Richard, do you think the need for this blog, savingbellevue.com, newspaper articles, the need for an Administrative Pastor could have been avoided?
karen
25
Then do so in your prayer closet and stop mentioning the present pastor in nearly every post.
truthseeker said...
Lost. Confused. Frustrated. Embarrassed. These are just some of the feelings that were roaming through the choir this morning. We did not know the SONG we sang but were expected to sing it loud and clear. Why did we not know it? Because we first need to practice it and not by listenting to a CD. Listening to a CD is fine but we need to practice. Also with a little practice we would not sound like a bunch of 6th graders. Jamie needs to understand that some of the older people cannot go up and down stairs like we did this morning. That is an accident waiting to happen. What a good way to get rid of the few choir members that are left. Lost. Confused. Frustrated. Embarrassed. Not too much longer.
I hear there are no tenors singing anymore. Can you confirm this?
karn
Karen
Do the cameras even SHOW the audience (and I use that term on purpose)?
I haven't watched in eons and my dad, who is homebound has long since stopped watching also but when he did, he said the cameras don't pan the audience, but retty much stay on Steve or Jamie.
NASCAR GOES TO CHURCH
Here is another example of BBC's poor decision making. True, Nascar is all the rage, and no doubt has many fans at BBC. This motor sport industry, which has its roots in whiskey running, tax evasion, and high speed chases to avoid the law, is now role-modeling for our children. From BBC's website: "Race to Win " features an exciting NASCAR environment... Of course the redeeming feature is a racer who was led to the Lord.
Nascar has recently started to use liquor companies as sponsors, companies such as Jim Beam and Jack Daniels. This has caused some of their anti drunk driving and anti underaged drinking advocates to withdraw their sponsorship from Nascar. They are worried about the bad image it gives to consumers. The following is a quote from the MarketWatch website, Sept 14, 20006
"If the spat seems like a tempest in a pot still, for the players involved it is about big money, image making and the continued move of liquor marketing into new, more-mainstream outlets. The industry, relegated largely to print ads until relatively recently, has burst into electronic media and event sponsorships as it seeks to boost its products and exploit changing tastes, especially by luring consumers away from beer." (to hard liquor)
(see link below)
http://www.marketwatch.com/News/Story/Story.aspx?siteid=google&guid=%7BAD6486DC-2B3B-40DE-B284-924823D958EA%7D&print=true&dist=printBottom
I guess this is an example of symbiotic relationship.The liquor industry uses Nascar to expand its advertising market. Nascar uses BBC to mainstream its image. BBC uses Nascar to attract the "unchurched". And the liquor industry makes more money. Everyone is happy.
25
"There are quite a few who post on here who hold the doctrines of grace AND who see the lack of discernment and balance in any poster who comes here to place the focus on the former pastor imo."
Since you have such discernment for anyone with the lack of balance why couldn't AR have had it when he needed it?
Are you greater than AR?
Piglet said...
Oh, according to a source willing to put on their hip boots and wade through Gaines' book, Bellevue is packed on Sun. nights and God is really blessing....
25
"aog gave you good and biblical advice to pray about your concerns rather than further embarrass yourself and not help your cause. If you continue to fire away at the former pastor, you will just become a messy, emotional squeeky wheel churning out a predictable sound--but accomplishing only hurt feelings on the part of those who loved the former pastor."
How much prayer goes into hurting the present pastor?
Isn't it interesting that the appeal to prayer is always when someone says something we don't like. I'm a 60 YOM who's heard that cliche mannnny times!!!
Piglet said...
"Karen
Do the cameras even SHOW the audience (and I use that term on purpose)?"
Response:
They have been using footage from the past of the audience... I know because a family member who left months ago saw themselves in the audience long after they departed Bellevue. Presenting the good old days in bad old times...
jmo
25+
My chin just hit the floor.
tn
Mr. Page,
Do I understand you to accuse AR of neglecting his (Church) family? And therefore, to be primary source of BBC's problems?
Yes
and thanks for the prayer, you recognize that I am just a sinner saved by grace.
Piglet,
According to Steve Gaines on page 25 of his new book, we are really packing them in on Sunday nights at Bellevue.
Steve Gaines mentions church growth experts who say Sunday nights are a thing of the past need to visit Bellevue to see for themselves the people flocking into the church on Sunday evenings.
He also tells his reading audience how we sing "There's a Sweet Sweet Spirit in this Place" each Sunday night at the conclusion of the service and how the congregation breaks out into spontaneous applause after the song is sung because they are so happy.
Sunday nights USED to be sweet and beautiful at Bellevue before Steve Gaines came.
Now, the attendance on Sunday evenings is down at least 40% from where it was when he came and no, there is not a Sweet Spirit" in the church any longer.
I'm not sure if Steve Gaines is delusional or if it was just an honest mistake of his writing hand when he wrote page 25.
We are all saddened over what's transpired over the past 20 months at Bellevue. Who would have ever thought BBC could have changed and fallen so quickly?
watching,
I have read through all your posts. I am not getting it. Please help me out, I apparently do not have your spiritual insights. What is your real problem?
Watchinghisstory,
I too hold to the Doctrines of Grace, but I loved Dr. Rogers. I know of many others who have posted here who would say the same. Your continued brow-beating of such a beloved and respected man serves only to marginalize your voice on this blog. I urge you to stop or post elsewhere.
25,
Could any of us who are shown on tv splices from last year claim invasion of privacy or false advertising or defimation of character for showing the world our faces when we may not actually be there.
Isn't this misleading to the people of Memphis to make them think people who are not happy and not attending are actually there?
Can BBC claim copyright on something that is a fabricated lie?
Does the FFC have rules against deception in TV?
Has anyone looked at the official numbers being put out by BBC on attendance.
I know ushers who say the official number attending the Worship Services is being inflated by 1,500 people. How hard would it be to have designated counters in the services to hold the leadership accountable on numbers.
Already, when called on their official numbers of new members this past year, they had to admit they inflated the number by a large percentage.
nathanb said,
I'm not sure if Steve Gaines is delusional or if it was just an honest mistake of his writing hand when he wrote page 25
reply: I'm sure it was a mistake of the head, not the heart.
Watchinghisstory said...
"How much prayer goes into hurting the present pastor?"
Response:
I believe that the blogs today are serving the purpose that pamphlets long ago served during the reformation. They are a call to reform to institutions that have grown too large to listen to the voices in the wilderness... unless they are embarrassed by pamphlets that accurately portray their error.
That can be constructive when you address the LIVING. Gaines is still alive and can answer if he chooses.
On the other hand, your chosen target cannot respond...
I think my words hurt you... Rebukes do hurt sometimes, but it's all about what you do with the rebuke when it comes from a brother.
AOG used kit gloves, but you continued. I meant to make contact.
nathanb
Did you go to the book signing? :D
I have experienced and heard other accounts of people waking up - I guess because of the mass exodus still occurring.
My hairdreser finally pressed me for information. A friend of mine was stopped in the hall by a staunch Gaines supporter and asked questions. Another friend talked to a staff person in support of Gaines and they admitted they are supporting him mainly because they like their job and plan to keep it - it's easier to demonize the other side and rationalize Gaines' actions (as if any of it is rational).
I know MANY teachers leaving. Someone in the center of the Gaines support group is starting to question (since the bogus meeting) and MAY have come to the big meeting that WE JUST SHELVED.
I think it is too little too late to save Bellevue - but it may be the beginning of Gaines' eventual demise - I can dream, right?
Gaies will reap what he's sown in this life or the next. If he gets away with it on earth - well, you can guess what that would mean.
MB - another one for you, bud. :)
I have been lurking all last night and this am and I want to know why SG's "mistakes of the mind" have become AR's. Don't see how that jump can be made, or should be made. AR was a man, just like any other man...but he was a Godly man, searching and studying God's word. He himself would have told you he wasn't perfect, and I don't think anyone here thinks he was. However, he EARNED our respect, trust and love. End of discussion as far as I'm concerned.
25+ said
They have been using footage from the past of the audience... I know because a family member who left months ago saw themselves in the audience long after they departed Bellevue. Presenting the good old days in bad old times...
jmo
Piglet says:
I guess this must have been the solution to the problem they were having - showing empty seats or only focusing the camera on Steve so that it looks like he's stuck on himself.
(Pause for effect)
Who would have made this decision? Can you imagine the editors searching for large audience shots and editing them in?
Pathetic. Well, now the editors may be leaving.....
WatchingHISstory says AR neglected his Church family?
Hmm ~ Well, that would have included me for around 15 years. I never had a problem with addressing my Pastor in the church hallway or the bookstore or in public.
He made time to hug my beautiful little girls, making us all feel like Princesses.
He and his wife made time to visit hurting members without climbing over fences.
He and his wife made time to pray with church members.
He made time to walk the halls and the grounds, praying for our church.
He always allowed us to bring him oatmeal cookies (without raisins), but he only ate one... giving the rest to the housekeeping staff.
He was a busy man, with more real responsibilities than I care to even think about.
However, he did not ever tell me that "If I don't like it, just leave."
AR exhibited more humility in his little toe than SG has in his whole body, lunch box included.
Piglet,
What you say is sad but correct. The Godly faithful both members and staff have already left or are hanging on hoping Steve Gaines and company will either repent or resign.
Each week finds more and more godly members leaving to worship elsewhere. The body of believers is the church.
I believe BBC is an apostate church at this time because of the following reasons. There are more reasons I don't have time to get into but here is a start.
1. Absolute unity is more important than absolute truth.
2. Feelings are more important than faith and facts.
3. "Love" is measured not by one's loyalty to Christ and obedience to His Word but by one's loyalty to Steve Gaines and his band of "elders".
4. Steve Gaines uses the Word out of context to justify his sinful acts and to intimidate Truthseekers.
Piglet,
I forgot to answer your question.
Steve Gaines did not sign my book because I didn't attend. (:-)
nathanb
Add to that:
5.) The end justifies the means - deception has become part of the MO.
And there's more but gotta run..
(offline til later)
25
"AOG used kit gloves, but you continued. I meant to make contact."
We wrestle not with flesh and blood . . . sounds Biblical
tn_lizzie2000 wrote:
"AR exhibited more humility in his little toe than SG has in his whole body, lunch box included."
Wiping the water off my screen... !
It IS biblical:
2 Samuel 10:12
Be strong and let us fight bravely for our people and the cities of our God. The LORD will do what is good in his sight."
1 Chronicles 19:13
Be strong and let us fight bravely for our people and the cities of our God. The LORD will do what is good in his sight."
1 Timothy 1:18
Timothy, my son, I give you this instruction in keeping with the prophecies once made about you, so that by following them you may fight the good fight,
1 Timothy 6:12
Fight the good fight of the faith. Take hold of the eternal life to which you were called when you made your good confession in the presence of many witnesses.
Even a dog growls when his master is attacked.
25
"I believe that the blogs today are serving the purpose that pamphlets long ago served during the reformation. They are a call to reform to institutions that have grown too large to listen to the voices in the wilderness... unless they are embarrassed by pamphlets that accurately portray their error."
...and I am not a voice in the wilderness? Could your statement be self-serving?
Psalm 141:5
Let a righteous man strike me--it is a kindness;let him rebuke me--it is oil for my head;let my head not refuse it. Yet my prayer is continually against their evil deeds.
Grrrrrr
tn
"Even a dog growls when his master is attacked."
Remind me, who is your master in this sentence?
Concernedsbcer said,
I have been lurking all last night and this am and I want to know why SG's "mistakes of the mind" have become AR's. Don't see how that jump can be made, or should be made. AR was a man, just like any other man...but he was a Godly man, searching and studying God's word. He himself would have told you he wasn't perfect, and I don't think anyone here thinks he was. However, he EARNED our respect, trust and love. End of discussion as far as I'm concerned.
11:21 AM, April 30, 2007
reply: This is the jump. Some people are working hard at deflecting the blame. And what an easy target to deflect to, someone who is not able to defend themselves. This is the ultimate definition of a bully, in my opinion. And the definition of cowardice. But, they didn't count on people like you and others who have discernment and do know a man of God when they see one. What I can't figure out, though, is why do do these same people call loyalty 'idolatry', yet they are quite as fervent in their loyalty to 'their man of God'. Makes me want to ask them,"Can you say 'hypocrite?"
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