Let's try this again:
Resolution passed at the 2002 Southern Baptist Convention:
On the Sexual Integrity of Ministers
A separate thread for discussion of Calvinism vs. Arminianism is below.
Resolution passed at the 2002 Southern Baptist Convention:
On the Sexual Integrity of Ministers
A separate thread for discussion of Calvinism vs. Arminianism is below.
790 comments:
«Oldest ‹Older 401 – 600 of 790 Newer› Newest»Mr. Fox,
If ya don't think that next Sunday is going to be better, then why would you think the football incident would be different?
5 cents please. Your balance is escalating at the speed of BBC's counselor & attorney fees . . . not to mention your chiropractic fees from the big game.
Lucy
...cakes
attorney fees quoted by DC at "several tens of thousands"!!
Counseling fees, one bill for $550, still on going for four counselees.
truthseekers there ... there were less than 60 people there, not counting staffers. Of the 58+, fully 20% were truthseekers that I recognized.
gw
Advice from Lucy! said...
Mr. Fox,
If ya don't think that next Sunday is going to be better, then why would you think the football incident would be different?
5 cents please. Your balance is escalating at the speed of BBC's counselor & attorney fees . . . not to mention your chiropractic fees from the big game.
Lucy
Reply:
TOUCHE!!!!!
As for the balance, Joseph Lee said it was OK to run it up. I can pay it later.
Trollcakes,
..the question was asked about the legal fees from the PW "incident"...tens of thousands was the answer
He didn't include PW's raise after he confessed to SG he was a child molestor
Sorry Gentle Warrior!! You are much faster at this...and all the finances!!!
Cakes....a circus!!!
Well, it appears the everybody agrees that today's "session" was a joke.
What was with DC acting like he couldn't read very well and then leaving out parts of the questions????? One nice lady asked him to please read her entire question! Was that to waste more of the time???
charlie fox said...
Well, it appears the everybody agrees that today's "session" was a joke.
10:25 PM, March 18, 2007
A joke, and not my idea of honesty, integrity, purity, character, etc. For a few minutes, I want to feel sorry for leadership, because they can't seem to get the rose colored glasses off their faces. Then, all of a sudden I come back to reality & realize that they have chosen a different path for themselves - a scary one. Wonder what God thinks?
5 Cents Please!
Lucy
I'm not surprised, but what will it take for people to see through this?
Lucy, you've done such a good job, I'm going to pay you a quarter.
Lucy,
AUGH!
Charlie
Lucy,
I just read your profile. I'm thinking you are an imposter ... the real Lucy would have listed Schroeder first under "Interests".
concernedsbcer,
Wait a minute. If you pay Lucy a quarter, she'll go up on the rate for the rest of us. NOT FAIR.
Lucy,
In your professional opinion...what was wrong with DC tonight??? Needing new glasses???
What about their lack of understanding about tonight being a question and answer time????
Why was JP clapping when it was his turn???
Help me Lucy!!!
concernedSBCer said...
I'm not surprised, but what will it take for people to see through this?
Lucy, you've done such a good job, I'm going to pay you a quarter.
10:43 PM, March 18, 2007
Probably they won't see clearly until pain enters the picture, like the false foundation crumbling beneath BBC. I think for sure it's begun. Now, how long until it pulls their rose colored glasses off their faces is the question??? Only God knows.
25 Cents? Finally, someone who sees my worth! Gee, what a nice tip :) Thanks!
Lucy
gmommylv wrote:
"Why was JP clapping when it was his turn???"
Glee? I don't know. Why were he and CF sitting there giggling like a pair of schoolgirls a lot of the time? I must have missed the joke(s).
junk99mail said...
Lucy,
I just read your profile. I'm thinking you are an imposter ... the real Lucy would have listed Schroeder first under "Interests".
10:48 PM, March 18, 2007
Hey, what do you mean? I'm still editing my profile, and Schroeder isn't my first love.
Lucy
Lucy,
How soon we forget...
http://www.whatacharacter.com
/p-s/s1204058.jpg
"Well, it appears the everybody agrees that today's "session" was a joke." blogged Charlie Fox
I went to the meeting today with an open mind. The first hour or so was about as boring as it can get. I did ask someone on the finance committee why the lengthy show. I was told that they felt if each of the department heads explained their area of responsibility it would help to correlate that with the expenses of that area. I think that he was being truthful but I could have gotten just as much from the mailing.
My observations on the meeting and in no particular order:
Not many members took the opportunity to participate.
Jamie Parker doesn't know when to be serious and/or he can't tell a joke.
I would rather watch paint dry than listen to Phil Weatherwax speak.
The use of index cards was ok but some questions needed clarification.
A few of the questions were just silly..
The question of $30,000 to Donna Gaines asked and answered. No money to Mrs. Gaines. And the church isn't paying for her a secretary.
David Coombs appeared to be straight forward in his answers. He said that no salary information would be made available. A side note the same finance guy told me that the figures people are quoting are not close to what Bro. Steve is paid. Since no reasonable person would assume he's making $500,000 you can assume lower than the $300,000 tossed about.
One member gave $750,000 in stock to the church last year. He gave $250,000 this year.
Offering and attendance are down 12-13%. Membership is up 700. Somebody may correct that 700 but that's pretty close. We are receiving offerings to meet a budget of $23 million currently.
Lawyer fees were $275 per hour and the cost is "very expensive" according to David Coombs. The church as spend $550 in counseling due to PW situation and anticipate a couple thousand more.
Overall, David Coombs answered all the questions on the cards except some of a personal nature. A lady said that she had provided a type list. It wasn't pointed out until the end and church was starting. David Coombs told her to call Monday and he would answer all her question. He told everyone that he was open to being called with your questions.
There will be quarterly reports outlining budgets expenses. It may be put on the Webb. They are looking at different options and open to suggestions.
One lady suggested that Bible verses or the Ten Commandments be on our billboard ads. Bellevue pays nothing for the billboards. We provide the two sites on the property in return for the free ads.
Overall I thought that the format wasn't great. They should just have had an Q&A rather than try to go through it by department.
One last thing, the meeting next week with conform to Roberts Rules of Order according to David Coombs. Motions will be allowed from the floor. Study those rules.
And finally, it appears that there were about 43 people voicing concerns to the budget. I know most of the leadership by face and many of the questioners by face due to the Communications Meetings. I expected the fellowship hall to be packed. I was disappointed it was not. The finance guy told me that they expected to see more. The overall feeling is that those with concerns are now a very small group. A 1000 they said has left but another 1000 has joined. Maybe the most vocal have left...either way next Sunday will be a telling point. I did speak with some in leadership at the meeting....all are not pleased by pastor's past actions. I think he's been given some feedback on his action from what I gathered from the conversation. Nobody was saying anything directly but the inference was certainly there.
gmommylv said...
Lucy,
In your professional opinion...what was wrong with DC tonight??? Needing new glasses???
What about their lack of understanding about tonight being a question and answer time????
Why was JP clapping when it was his turn???
Help me Lucy!!!
10:55 PM, March 18, 2007
Wrong with DC tonight? He doesn't need new glasses. He needs lasic surgery.
Lack of understanding of Q & A? Are you kidding? I do believe they are highly intelligent. You know manipulative people are some of the most intelligent people you'll ever know.
JP Clapping? He really wanted to dance across the floor & hop over a pew - that sitting really gets to him. He wanted to PTL, you know! He seems like a nice guy & I do like his joy - if it is for real? I like real joy. I think real Christians are joyful people.
Speaking of joyful people. Have you ever seen SG exhibit joy? I'm praying for him (I promise I'm crying out to God)& waiting...
Lucy
P.S. That will be 5 cents please.
Me thinks me needs an accountant. Wonder where I can find one that's slick, but honest, of course.
Some stats from the budget review meeting:
Passion Play 2006 - 1470 prayed to receive Christ (ptrc)
Singing Christmas tree 2006 - 600 ptrc
600 baptisms last year.
700-800 increase in membership in the past year (no comments about how many memberships transferred out or cancelled.)
Attendance down 12-14% (that one defies every observation I've made)
Offerings down 10-14%
Current lower offering average is sufficient to fund the proposed $23.8 million budget.
January offerings in 2006 and 2007 both totalled about $1.7million.
Budget requires $440,000 per Sunday offerings. Offerings recently have been $550,000 and $400,000 (spring break weekend).
No unusually large gifts from a few top givers to keep up the giving level.
$30 million in the bank is a myth - $6-7 million in undesignated reserves, about the same amount in designated reserves (including $2million for prayer chapel).
LWF, MBTS, are budgeted the same amount of support as last year, MBTS is up from two years ago.
More later.
gw
Only 43 people in attendance and no telling how many of those were part of this group. And you actually think the leadership of BBC is worried about you and what you think? You've got to be kidding.
Staffers reporting at the budget review meeting:
Chip Freeman - church administrator
Scotty Shows - recreation
Jim Barnwell - communications
Jame Parker - music
Mark Gates - Adult education
Sarah Jerkins- Child ministries
Phil Newberry- Student ministries
Marge Lenow - Women's ministries
Web Williams - Member development
Joe Jernigan - Pastoral ministries
Phil Weatherwax - missions
David Coombs - budget development process,
John Crockett - Budget planning committee chair
Gasp, gasp - after an hour and a half, finally - the opportunity for questions.
A summary of a few of them in a minute.
gw
No brady,
I think most on here think it's been quite apparent from the beginning that leadership could give a flying leap at a rolling donut what we or anyone else thinks, So stand down your goads big guy. You and your cohorts have taunted folks here enough...ya think?
I thought it was interesting that they've decided to replace the new members' "Discovery Class" with a series of "step" classes, each emphasizing one of the four "B's" that were mentioned by a couple of the speakers. The first is required for church membership while the other three are optional.
Step 1 - Membership (Belonging)
Step 2 - Maturity (Becoming)
Step 3 - Ministry (Behaving)
Step 4 - Magnification (Believing)
What?...no classes in hand waving and clapping?...no free rose-colored glasses?..what's this church coming to?
Brady said...
Only 43 people in attendance and no telling how many of those were part of this group. And you actually think the leadership of BBC is worried about you and what you think? You've got to be kidding.
11:23 PM, March 18, 2007
Sorry. I counted 68 plus the hirelings. I don't know anything about any group except BBC. Aren't we supposed to be a group of believers, following Christ, obeying His Word, listening to His voice? I don't really care if the leadership cares about what I think. I don't care what they think. God cares. He is watching. I have a daughter who tells her friends when she knows that I am praying about something, "Be afraid. Be very afraid."
I follow Christ above all. Some seem to be forgetting that God is bigger than Bellevue. Bellevue was once a wonderful church. In those days, following Bellevue was synonymous with following Christ. Now . . . that is not the case.
I wonder what God is thinking? I want to be faithful to Him.
Lucy
Don't worry about the 5 cents. This was for free.
Time for Lucy's beauty rest now. Good Night!
Brady,
We have ALWAYS known the leadership was NOT concerned or worried about any of us....If SG had a pastor's heart and calling ,he would be broken hearted or at least embarrassed for the NATIONAL shame he has brought on BBC.
How disappointing to think that some of the ministers listed as present by Gentle warrior were once seen as wise and trustworthy. Now they are PLEASED by SG's work this past year.?????
Are we going to have a second service to grieve our losses this past year under the non leadership of SG. How do we get back our heritage of scriptural integrity???
Questions / answers -
Salaries not to be released, DC did note that BBC uses pay grades set by outside consultants. He did not clarify whether that was just for hourly staff, or included at least some professional staff.
Prayer chapel plans - designated to long-range planning committee.
Life Choices was given a special gift of $50k a while back for a new facility project, which has now been completed.
DC deftly sidestepped the question about review process of the $25k gift to FUMC. He emphasized that in the future all special gifts would be approved by the missions committee. Pretty apparent that the new process was not used in the FUMC case.
Annual report will be produced (my guess is in late summer, after the audit is completed). Annual report will include balance sheet, and income/expense reports.
Average 3% salary increases, if you were below mid-point in your grade level, you could get up to 5% increase with an excellent performance report.
Senior Pastor increase was 3%.
If revenues fall short of budgeted expenses, finance committee would have authority to tap reserves.
Finance committee reviews every month receipts and expenses (budgeted vs actual).
The special projects fund functions as a discretionary fund for new ministries, expenses above budget. I2 was initially funded out of special projects during its first year, and now is in the regular budget. Morning Manna this year came out of special projects, and moves to budgeted line items in proposed budget. About $500,000 of the $600,000 in last years special project line has been spent.
What sort of steams my glasses is that DC noted several times that quarterly reports are forthcoming, in which they will compare current year to last year. He even suggested they might be on the website. That's nice, but a little late. They have known for months that financial transparency was lacking and being demanded. Getting quarterly figures for current budget is probably just changing options on the computer financial software. Honestly, this should have taken the financial staff a day or two at the very most. If they had provided that with the budget proposal, many questions would have been answered immediately.
But the real implication here is that the quarterly comparisons will probably begin in April - beginning of fiscal 2008, comparing April 2007 to April 2006. The data for the year April 2004 to March 2005 will be omitted, which is a comparison that would tell us much more clearly what changes have been made since the last year under Dr Rogers. I think its a deliberate move. I hope they prove me wrong and disclose comparisons of fiscal 2008 (beginning next month) to both fiscal 2006 and 2007.
DC totally omitted questions posed regarding conflict of interest and any method they might have for identifying disqualified persons (an IRS defined term for insiders) and assuring that any transactions with insiders is completed on fair market value.
A public speaker DC is not, as he stumbled over words, reading, and answers. I do think he answered them truthfully as he understood the facts to be - though he parsed words very, very carefully a few times.
Of course he may be like the IBM salesmen I used to work with in the 70's -- of them we used to say "It's not that IBM salesmen aren't knowledgeable, it's just that most of what they know just isn't true!" Seemed to fit some of the answers today -- although I wouldn't accused DC of deliberately saying untruth -- avoiding it maybe, parsing carefully, to the point of probable misleading -- and that's just another integrity question added to the pile.
And honestly, if they had shortened the do-good reports to 15 minutes, we would have had plenty of time to answer the rest of the questions --- another deliberate ploy -- use up most of the time so people won't ask as much? You're call -- either intential manipulation, or stupid planning -- neither one very complimentary to the newly ordained admin pastor. He lost ground on style points, integrity points, and planning.
Oh well, for the rest of the congregation who like the kool-aid, when you can't ask any questions about 55% of the budget (compensation)and the celebration emotes good numbers, the message is "trust us, we won't give you any details, but we mean well and try hard." Oh that trust thing ... fading fast.
aog wrote:
"I think most on here think it's been quite apparent from the beginning that leadership could give a flying leap... "
I think you meant "they couldn't give a flying leap." And you're right. They couldn't care less. What's sad about it is, they seem to be proud of not caring.
"What?...no classes in hand waving and clapping?"
Well, Jamie tried to get the crowd worked up, but it fizzled.
I thought they dodged the question about the PW legal expenses well. Okay, not very well, but they dodged it nevertheless. In attempting to answer other questions, whenever David Coombs didn't know the exact answer, he'd defer to Chip Freeman who'd always pipe right up with a number. Yet, when DC said he didn't know how much had been spent on legal expenses because of the PW situation but that "it was a lot -- probably in the tens of thousands," he looked at Chip Freeman who didn't seem to have a clue. Then he said, "At $275 an hour it adds up quickly." All because the senior pastor seemed to have found himself in "uncharted waters." What's wrong with this picture?
Truth Rules said:
"I expected the fellowship hall to be packed. I was disappointed it was not. The finance guy told me that they expected to see more. The overall feeling is that those with concerns are now a very small group. A 1000 they said has left but another 1000 has joined. Maybe the most vocal have left...either way next Sunday will be a telling point."
Maybe the most vocal have left, and many of the more spiritually atuned ... when I consider the number of really spiritually mature people who are already elsewhere -- and I've talked with a number of them, I grieve for the loss to Bellevue. But other churches are gaining such great spiritual hearts and minds, and will benefit greatly.
"The overall feeling is that those with concerns are now a very small group."
Well, those with concerns are still a sizeable group, and growing . . . its just that many consider the train to already have left the station, and its too far gone. They have serious concerns, valid ones - spiritually discerned ones, but the 'ignore them -- stonewall them strategy' has worked -- many have moved on -- and don't consider the current leadership - both lay and professional -- to be open to hearing their concerns anyhow.
The 25th will be telling . . . many will stay away because they just don't want the physical nausea of a watching celebration in the midst of a tragedy. They want nothing to do with it. The Pastor's Rocky illustration on Jan 24 will be prophetic - take the punches and hang in there. They'll tire and go away. It's happening folks.
As Ross Perot used to say -- "That giant sucking sound" is spiritual gifts exiting Bellevue to be used elsewhere in Memphis -- the blessing of many other people.
Here, Lucy.
"Seemed to fit some of the answers today -- although I wouldn't accused DC of deliberately saying untruth -- avoiding it maybe, parsing carefully, to the point of probable misleading -- and that's just another integrity question added to the pile." said gentle warrior
In all fairness I thought that Mr. Coombs was honest in his answers. It seems to be that he is a breath of fresh air especially to anyone who attended a Communications Committee Meeting. All you heard there was "I don't know". He answered the vast majority of the questions. I am not sure where you get the question of his integrity from this meeting. The only questions he didn't answer were on specific salaries, no surprise there. Nor did he answer when staff lived which I don't think is much of a question anyway.
"Only 43 people in attendance and no telling how many of those were part of this group. And you actually think the leadership of BBC is worried about you and what you think? You've got to be kidding." posted brady
Just for clarification. The 43 was not the total group of people there just the people outside of the staff and committee members. I think someone counted 68 in all. But there is some concern or else why have these meetings. The budget meeting in the past took place in a BBF room and only about 5 people ever came by. They obviously anticipated more but it does appear that when you get down to it there are few left in opposition. By the way, someone posted that they didn't address number of new members. They did and said the new members had pretty much off-set the losses. I think it was a plus side of 700 more members than last year despite the losses.
There will be an open floor next Sunday to place any vote in front of the church. It only takes two people to place something into vote. Now a motion can be placed to table that motion but the church will still vote on one or the other. But for anyone who has asked to bring something before the full membership, this is your time....so speak up next Sunday or lose your right to complain.
The 1000 who have left can be misleading...that's probably a 1000 who have already moved their memberships to this point...there are many who have stopped attending, but haven't moved their memberships as yet. I'm just guessing, but I imagine after the 25th there'll be more of an exodus. I haven't attended in over 2 mos. now. I'll be there the 25th...which will be a day of decision for me. There are many, including myself, who for all practical purposes have already left BBC...we're members on paper only. Perhaps SG and co. along with those in the "majority" who support them should wait till AFTER the 25th to celebrate. If things go as I expect they will, they'll have more to celebrate as the "malcontents" make their final exit....that is if they don't decide to "de-church" them..which for my money would be a badge of honor to be de-churched by the lot known as the "majority" at BBC.
The scuttlebutt is that leadership has hired a parliamentarian for the 25th...if you want to be heard you better know Robert's Rules inside out...or hire your own parliamentarian...they have a professional. Which seems a waste of money..seeing they already have security guys on the payroll..they can just throw anyone out who tries to speak. But I guess hiring a professional RR guy is the PC thing to do..plays much better in the press.
They have the money and the control folks..as "brady" so sweetly reminded everyone last night...they don't care what you think. One thing about that though...all the money and control in this earth can't trump the Sovereign Lord..there's a consequence for everything..for good or evil...you always reap what you sow...maybe not today...maybe not tomorrow...one day for sure though.
gentle warrior said...
$30 million in the bank is a myth - $6-7 million in undesignated reserves, about the same amount in designated reserves (including $2million for prayer chapel).
Sheepless says,
It was 7 - 8 Million in designated and 7 - 8 Million in undesignated, specifically addressed back to Chip Freeman as 14 - 16 Million total, not 30 Million as rumor has been. Chip was forthcoming with answers when addressed specifically (as 14-16 Million total and not 30 million), as most accountants have a problem not being exact & precise, when pinned down with a direct question.
Still that is a spread of 2 MILLION DOLLARS!! I would think they would have better accounting than where 2 Million dollars may or may not be!!
David Coombs did answer that Donna Gaines did not receive 30,000, but with head down, looking at his notes, and more of a moving right along demeanor. Would have thought this answer would have been more effective with direct eye contact with "audience" and less weak tone..JMHO.
Jamie Parker thought he was going to make this Jamies show!! Nobody but some of staff took the bait!!
A lot of play on emotions with the cost of insurance, including insuring the 3 Crosses..like Lucy said it was as if we were idiots, anyone with half a brain knows the importance and necessity of insurance..we all have it, hope we never have to use it, pay too much, but it's one of those necessary evils.
Also emotional play on the childrens department and youth departments. Who wouldn't agree we need comfort, security and protection for our children.
This budget has already been presented to staff...(to help them understand the inner workings of the church as a whole, not just their department/area)ha,ha,ha,ha,ha,ha,ha,ha,ha.
This meeting was nothing more than another dress rehearsal for Sunday morning.
TAP DANCING AND EVASION, the more they do it, the better they will get.
AOG, considering that Bellevue has on record 26,000+ members and that the best attendances only averaged about 10,000 people I guess you could say that there have always been a lot of paper members. It is hard for anyone to judge the potential impact that could occur after the 25th. Based on yesterdays meeting it seems to be a small number of those concerned enough to turn out to ask questions. I am not blaming anyone who didn't come but it seems to me that if you want to be heard then it's better to go rather than just sit in your home blogging.
AOG, I agree that next Sunday will be somewhat telling. The meeting will be an opportunity for IDC and those who want to voice concerns to have that chance. I think that the full membership after hearing the concerns will once and for all decide the outcome. I am not one of those who will not question the spirituality of others nor their integrity. I trust that the process will be fair and open. I think that to make assumptions about the process or to make condemning remarks about other members are wrong. Many on this blog was complaining that we didn't have a chance to vote on anything that the powers that be made the decisions. Well now is our chance to vote. If you want someone on a committee then nominate them. But if you don't work within the system then don't complain later. Hope to see all there on Sunday. So if you see someone nominated from the floor vote for her/him. You just might be voting for me and I will need all the votes I can get.
An observation from an outsider:
Having followed Bellevue's woes since all of this came to light, I am first of all, very sympathetic to all the pain of the faitful Bellevue members who have seen their church plummet in front of yours and this nations eyes.
I , too, was a member of a non-denominational Bible Church which was suddenly and abrubtly overrun by hirelings conditioned to follow the church growth seeker sensitive mindset.
Rick Warren and Bill Hybels may be getting the largest portion of the flak from true believers since they are conspicuosly leading and training pastors and youth pastors and lay leadwers into their unholy and unbiblical redefinition of The Church.
That said...
What I would tell Bellevue after much research following our churches takeover, is that you are fighting against a "vision" , not a book, and not an author.
This "vision" is one of "being relevant " to the culture ( The World ) , ...in the hope that by being " relevant "( imitating ) the world, ( ie: spiritually removing any and all Biblically supported divisions and barriers between lost sinners and redeemed Christ followers) that some spiritual benefits to God will accrue to that Church or Churches in spite of their disobedience to GOD.
And here is the trillion dollar answer straight from Gods WORD>
We are not called to be " OF THE WORLD " ...
We are called " OUT OF THE WORLD " ..by OUR GOD.
If ye were of the world, the world would love his own: but because ye are not of the world, but I have chosen you out of the world, therefore the world hateth you. John 15 : 19
God meant for His Bride to be the " called" and "seperated" and to be unspotted and not " of the world ".
God never changes...
Gods WORD plainly teaches and unashamedly declares that those who " love the world " make themselves an enemy of GOD.
What the sheep at Bellevue have not fully yet figured out...is that a spiritual brainwashing via mysticism has long ago swept our nations seminaries. This is critical to understand and even more critical to read and research what this mysticism entails..what it looks like, how it is presented as a spiritual aid, and how mysticism alters and flips ones' view of THE WORLD...AND TRUTH.
I used to identify the Purpose Drive program alone , as if it were the true culprit...
IT IS NOT ..IT IS JUST THE NATURAL OUTGROWTH OF THE NEW AGE ' VISION "
It ( PURpOSE DRIVEN ) is a blueprint...and a program that is both unholy and pragmatic and will seek to destroy the Holy Spirit leading and guidance in any church that employs it, ....but...and this is critical to understand...
it is the caboose on a much bigger engine..
The engine is the wholesale distribution and teaching of altered state of consciousness and rank new age spirituality that has been camofauged and seductively spoon fed by wolves posing as spiritual guides and gurus and church growth experts , peddling supposed enhancements to Christian prayer life, and promising means to suddenly offer previously hidden secrets...ways to come directly into " Gods presence " by stilling the conscious mind..., and ...by doing so ...finding enlightenment and empowerment and a " new vision " for the Church and THE WORLD .
This new enlightened "vision", ...once mystically obtained...removes all Biblcally based fear of God...removes any and all Biblically based barriers to " loving the world " ( imitating and joining with the world ) ; and ...leaves the " visioneer " ...in a state of mind that now looks at all who would not UNITE with the world ..as being " hateful and divisive...and unloving.
Completely ignoring Gods commands in Scripture to " come out from among them " ..and be ye seperate ..saith the LORD>..these new "visionaries" now look through fresh new eyes at all who seek to obey Gods Scriptural mandates of seperation as being mean spirited 'RESISTERS " ...AND ..even go so far as to identify obedient Beleivers as satans children.
Bottom line..
This is an end times spiritual deception on the scale of Hiroshima and Nagasaki and the Black plague.
God Himself is allowing this end times strong delusion and deception to grow like cancer .
The Holy Spirit foretold it...
Now The SPIRIT speaketh EXPRESSLY ..
That in latter times, some shall depart from THE FAITH, ...giving heed to seducing spirits and doctrines of devils, having their consciences seared as with a hot iron. 2nd Timothy 4: 1,2
Do you know how much evil and worldly influence a seared conscience resists ?
Right
It doesnt. Its' seared.
Bellevue is just one of tens of thousands of churches that are cleaning house according to the new paradigm..the new vision ...ie : WORLD " good " ...
Biblical Holiness and seperation from the WORLD and its ways : BAD .
I commend those who call on GOD for deliverance, ..and I also exhort those same said brothers and sisters to be prepared to " come out from among them " ...and be ye seperate...saith THE LORD.
All who name the name of Jesus Christ are being fully tested to see whether we will yield and submit to a false unity and the MYSTICALLY based utopian " brotherhood of man " ..over the devotion to FATHER GOD THROUGH HIS ONLY SON, JESUS CHRIST.
Hear the WORD of THE LORD:
24 Then came the Jews round about him, and said unto him, How long dost thou make F22 us to doubt? If thou be the Christ, tell us plainly. 25 Jesus answered them, I told you, and ye believed not: the works that I do in my Father's name, they bear witness of me. 26 But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you. 27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: 28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand. 29 My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand. 30 I and my Father are one.
Finally,..
If God does not see fit to rescue Bellevue from its current course..
Thank The Lord for His plain guidance and protections, even while grieving the loss...
It is a test of your love and faith and trust in GOD and HIS WORD.
Many , many churches are have fallen and/or all falling as we speak...
The spirit of error and compromise , moral relativism and worldliness has enterred the Church from the front doors , while the back doors were being guarded and watched.
The Church is now making itself to be an enemy of GOD...by willful disobedience and by LOVING AND IMITATING THE WORLD...against the CLEAR TEACHING OF GODS INNERANT AND INFALLIBLE WORD.
Let all who hath ears...hear
Truth Rules said:
"I expected the fellowship hall to be packed. I was disappointed it was not. The finance guy told me that they expected to see more. The overall feeling is that those with concerns are now a very small group. A 1000 they said has left but another 1000 has joined. Maybe the most vocal have left...either way next Sunday will be a telling point."
Of note is the lack of attendance by the masses that will be voting on the budget and committees on the 25th. Are they not interested or are they just going to vote ignorantly like expected for a Sunday morning crowd. Perhaps they did not attend the budget meeting because they were not interested in another dog and pony show(Communications Committee Era).
Indeed next Sunday will be a telling point! Every issue will be shut down if the topic is too hot for the administration to handle..there are a lot of people who are ready to leave and I actually don't think the leadership cares how many sheep they run off - that is Steve Gaines' playbook, it has worked well for him in the past and he doesn't care for the flock, he is all about the power and how he can feather his own nest - with fleece from the Lord's sheep.
According to Donna, we are just "trash", why would he care if that is how they feel.
I will say that more than likely, Steve Gaines is damaged goods in the SBC and that is by his own hand, he let Paul Williams remain on staff for a reason, we need to know why!
I am praying the Lord will intervene and show the congregation the truth, regardless of what it is.
I am just sick over the idea of having to sit thru a shallow sermon and Jamie's song and dance routine to get to the guts of the service when I could be hearing Dr Rogers on TV. Even from the grave, he is superior to SG in every way.
don, I think that you might just be too far outside. Based on your post you are certainly over the top with your thoughts. We don't have a church problem so much as we have had a pastor problem. I don't see any of this PDL in our midst as much as I see a pastor who from pride and lack of judgement has made some big blunders. But all that has been pointed out here and in front of the church. I am hoping that Bro. Steve has learned from his errors. Only time will tell but I don't think that he could survive another series like we just went through. But for you an outsider to be projecting the fall of Bellevue is far from the truth. Aside from what some of my fellow bloggers may believe the fact of the matter is that we have the same leadership now that we had 10 years ago when Bellevue was growing. These are men strong in their faith and have proven their ability to lead us. While I agree with many of the concerns on this blog I do realize that the blog is not filled with key church leaders. If people decide to leave after the 25th it will not cause a fall in Belleuve so the rumors of the death of Bellevue have been overly exaggerated.
The ' engine " of this deception is the new wordly mindset ...
ie: choosing "relevance "( imitating and appealing to the WORLD by becoming more like the world ) over commands for Holiness..( SEPERATION)"
Purpose Driven , Church Growth , or seeker sensitive is simply the inevitable outcome or " outgrowth " of the globally promoted unholy vision of cultural surrender and compromise with the worlds systems and ideologies that mysticism packaged as spiritual enhancement fosters.
DON said...
The same tired babble. (paraphrase mine)
I hope no one is letting this PDL hysteria distract them from the real issue.
The problem is with Bellevue's pastor, NOT Saddleback's. He's prideful and arrogant, and refuses to humble himself.
Did anyone go to the p.m. service? Did you catch the drift that from Acts 2 that we should share with churches who believe differently? Like FUMC, maybe?
THAT'S what's wrong. SG still refuses to admit that he made a mistake. And that's the problem that needs to be fixed!
truth rules said...
Now a motion can be placed to table that motion but the church will still vote on one or the other.
REPLY:
The motion to table is actually the motion to "Lay on the Table", and you use it to set a pending motion aside TEMPORARILY in order to take up something else more pressing or urgent.
allofgrace said...
The scuttlebutt is that leadership has hired a parliamentarian for the 25th...if you want to be heard you better know Robert's Rules inside out...or hire your own parliamentarian...they have a professional. Which seems a waste of money..seeing they already have security guys on the payroll..they can just throw anyone out who tries to speak. But I guess hiring a professional RR guy is the PC thing to do..plays much better in the press.
REPLY:
Having a parliamentarian is a GOOD thing. He should NOT be the Moderator, but only a consultant for ALL parties involved, should a question on RRoO procedures arise. If you know RRoO, a parliamentarian can be your friend.
I agree with Charlie about your new friend the parliamentarian. One thing is if it's a true RR forum, the meeting can't adjurn until the majority of the members vote to adjourn. So no 30 minutes for questions unless that's how the majority rules. Show up!
Chrlie Fox, thanks for the qualification on Roberts Rules of Order. Can any motion be made and seconded and come to full vote of the membership?
charlie, may I ask one last question? If a motion "lays on the table" can the meeting be adjourned while this motion is tabled? Can the meeting be stopped at any point with a motion, second, and majority vote to end the meeting? I would look all this up myself but while I have your knowledge available it's quicker! LOL
Don,
Sorry for some that are not able to see the big picture as a whole yet. When believers go thru what you and Lindon have experienced...things get really black and white and that isn't a comfortable place for most people. It will be clear after the fact.
SG is most definitely not our only problem.(he does need to go!). More research should be done on those leaders that have been in place for 10 years....not what I ever expected to find.
My son asked me if I had heard of Gnosticism. He has been at a Christian college for the past 2 years. He did not understand why I refused to study this false doctrine ....I used to read the sports page so I could talk to him about sports....what was the difference????? I told him I had to spend my time studying God's pure word.....
As I have been researching and studying, this Gnostisism keeps showing up....along with other "mystical" feel good ,and watered down gospel. I became so convicted to go back to the black and white Truth....none of todays culture sneaking in the back door.
Even tho I was hammered with legalism as a child,I GOT the fear of the Lord !
The way the churches are handing out the love of the Lord without the fear of the Lord is worse than preaching forgiveness without consequences and repentance. I believe along with you that this will be the downfall of BBC. SG and the others SHOULD be fearful. God will not be mocked. Scripture should not be perverted and taken out of context. Our church and others are no longer God centered but man centered.
I never intended to go back to my black and white upbringing. My fear of the Lord has brought me out of the gray. I pray the Holy Spirit will continue to open my eyes and teach me.
truth rules said...
Charlie Fox, thanks for the qualification on Roberts Rules of Order. Can any motion be made and seconded and come to full vote of the membership?
ReplY:
Yes. It should be written, with a written copy for the Moderator, and read at the time the motion is made . The motion should start with "Mr. Moderator, I move that---". If it is seconded, it then becomes property of the assembly and has to be voted on. Once the motion is seconded, the maker of the motion has the first opportunity to speak in favor of the motion.
If you were at the evening service last night, you heard the gospel preached powerfully. You sang songs about the cross, and heard that the blood of Christ is the only atonement for sin.
You also heard a man put himself in opposition to many in the congregation by underhandedly defending a donation to a church that supports abortion rights and active homosexuality.
Please understand that the problems facing Bellevue are not some 'big picture' conspiracy. If you plan on going to the meeting and standing up to say:
"The Church is now making itself to be an enemy of GOD...by willful disobedience and by LOVING AND IMITATING THE WORLD...against the CLEAR TEACHING OF GODS INNERANT AND INFALLIBLE WORD.
Let all who hath ears...hear"
Then do Bellevue a favor and stay silent. We'll cross that bridge when we get there.
Solomon,
Don't worry...no plans for that. I was just sharing with Don.
We asked a question on March 17 @ 9:02a.m. on this thead that we have not seen an answer to from anyone.
Is there anyone who can answer it? (Charlie????)
Thanks. Have a glorious day in The LORD Jesus.
truth rules said...
charlie, may I ask one last question? If a motion "lays on the table" can the meeting be adjourned while this motion is tabled?
REPLY: If it is a motion to "Lay on the Table", the answer is NO.
Can the meeting be stopped at any point with a motion, second, and majority vote to end the meeting?
Reply: YES, if the announced agenda is complete, there are no outstanding motions and no new business is pending.
gmommylv,
Sure did appreciate your 10:10 a.m. post!!! Thanks!!! It was refreshing!!! Thenk You, LORD Jesus!!!
QUESTION:
What legal recourse do the people have that were giving The LORD Jesus' tithes and offerings to this Church during the time period that this blasphemous gift was given to the pro-abortion and pro-homosexual "church"? (Noting, of course, that the same Church calls itself a corporation and also noting that corporations are held legally accountable for their use and misuse of other people's monies. Example: Enron.)
Stephen and Bonita Ann Richie
REPLY:
Unless this is addressed in the Bylaws, which it is not, there is no recourse. Once you give an undesignated tithe, it can be used in ANY way, as long as it doesn't violate the Bylaws. This by no means addresses the MORAL ISSUE!!!!
gmommlyv..
God Bless You
It was neer " black and white " TRUTH that was the problem...
It has always been legalism..
( promoting new doctrines that were never there ) that has offended many.The devils chief weapon against TRUTH has been to try and " equate " black and white TRUTH " with something offensive like " legalism ".
There is no equivalency.
One is God breathed and thus worthy of emulation...the other is a man inspired enemy of TRUTH .
They are not synonymous.
They are distint and seperate.
The devil knows that a phony linking of the two produces public acrimony and fosters distrust of Black and White or Dogmatic TRUTH.
Truth has always been a chief target of the enemy.
Also, ....to my detractors..
God Bless You
I have no illusion that most will not heed nor hear my warnings relating to mysticism and gnostic spirituality now sweeping the planet.
If they all agreed with me...it wouldn't be called a "great delusion" now...would it ?
To quote a Godly woman..
" I would rather be divided by TRUTH, than to ever be united in error."
Maranatha
Don,
You tend to hit whatever target you aim for. Our hope and prayer is to have a man of integrity in our pulpit once again. Best wishes with the conspiracy.
BTW,
DON said...
Psalm 94: 22
But the LORD is my defence; and my God is the rock of my refuge.
And......On a much lighter note:
30 days til opening Day
11:49 AM, March 02, 2007
How much longer till April Fool's day?
Thanks, Charlie!
It does seem, however, that there would be a way of holding Gaines and Co. legally responsible for the misappropriation of funds by giving monies given in good faith (given based upon the denominational and statement of beliefs of Bellevue) to a "church" that pets abortion and homosexuality. NONE of us giving our tithes and offerings to Bellevue during that time period would have ever given it had we known our money given specifically to The LORD Jesus would have been given to such an organization. We know that God will not hold that to our account but this home ceased tithes and offerings to Bellevue as a result. We simply could not deal with it. The LORD Jesus' tithes and offerings are sent elsewhere.
Bellevue's wolf-in-residence and the other hirelings care not what the congregation thinks about its ploys. (If they care not for what The LORD Jesus thinks, why would they care about what WE think?) The ONLY thing they seem to care about is bad publicity or legal actions, etc.
While we are speaking on this, whatever happened to the assistant d.a.'s threat to prosecute according to TN law those that kept P.W.'s secret?
Our hearts continue broken over ALL that has transpired at Bellevue under this wolf and several other hirelings. We are still visiting other Churches in order to find us a Church home. God has not turned a deaf ear, however, to the prayers of His children that are crying out to Him about all that has transpired at Bellevue.
Don,
I don't even pretend to be able to articulate God's word the way I need and want to but that is why I am studying!!
The quote I used with my son came from the same source....
"It's better to speak the truth that hurts and then helps than falsehood that comforts then kills."
It is interesting that when my son tried to talk to his sister about this popular "new" doctrine...he would say, ..but Bro. Rogers always said ..... and that sounds like what this is saying.... she was able to take what he was taught by "his preecher" (as my son called him as a child)and lead him back to the pure truth. !!!
I have also been under strong conviction from all this playing out that our Christian men are no longer men. Forgive my bluntness, but MANY not all, appear to be "sale outs"... so I have taken a very hard stand with my son. I have challenged him to be rebellious and passionate for the only cause worth dying for. Our young people WANT to be passionate and know their life has a purpose....but we continue to feed them milk....now a "unity" of error and falsehood.
It is always best when dealing with a disease in the body, ...to treat the root cause ,rather than merely treating the visible symptoms.
and that root
is
UNITY CONSCIOUSNESS...GNOSTIC ONENESS...AKA/NEW AGE ENLIGHTENMENT
mystically becoming ONE ..
with the WORLD...
Now taught in a seminary near you..
Solomon said,
"Did anyone go to the p.m. service? Did you catch the drift that from Acts 2 that we should share with churches who believe differently? Like FUMC, maybe?"
Another part of the under current...brainwashing. Slow boil. Frog in the kettle. My former church's new pastor is talking the same thing as are many hundreds of others. Their 'vision' is one world order. In order to achieve this, all the denomination must all become 'one'. Many churches have already dropped their denomination from their name. It is no longer 'Yada Yada Baptist Church'...it is just 'Yada Yada Church' or better yet, 'Yada Yada Worship Center', etc.
At 12:12 PM, March 19, 2007
DON said...
and that root
is
UNITY CONSCIOUSNESS...GNOSTIC ONENESS...AKA/NEW AGE ENLIGHTENMENT
mystically becoming ONE ..
with the WORLD...
Now taught in a seminary near you..
junk99mail says...
The closest seminary to BBC is MABTS, and I am quite certain that of all the things taught there, "new age enlightenment" is not among them.
Another part of the under current...brainwashing. Slow boil. Frog in the kettle. My former church's new pastor is talking the same thing as are many hundreds of others. Their 'vision' is one world order. In order to achieve this, all the denomination must all become 'one'. Many churches have already dropped their denomination from their name. It is no longer 'Yada Yada Baptist Church'...it is just 'Yada Yada Church' or better yet, 'Yada Yada Worship Center', etc.
Actually, there was no unity conspiracy at the heart of this statement. SG was once again trying to justify a major-league, boneheaded screwup instead of admitting he made a mistake.
I hear what you're saying, and there's truth in it. It is not at the heart of the Bellevue conflict, though. Let's concentrate on the real issue instead of chasing ghosts.
The Bible describes a one world religion, and a one world government, ruled and run by the forces of antichrist.
Not one of these end time concepts could be adapted by open , truthful , and transparent means.
They are done slowly, in secret and in stages.
Conspiracy ?
Thats your words..
God calls it
PROPHECY
come Lord Jesus says "Bellevue's wolf-in-residence and the other hirelings care not what the congregation thinks about its ploys."
Not trying to stir up a hornet's nest but some of your stuff is just too bizarre for my taste. I don't think they don't care what the membership thinks. Remember come Sunday two members can bring to a vote the termination of Bro. Steve. If he doesn't worry about what we think he should be worrying about how we vote. Sunday can be a day that allows the membership to voice as a group the direction of the church. Afterwards, one can determine her/his membership but if you don't voice and vote then don't complain after the opportunity you will have Sunday. And don't tell me that it's all prearranged. Charlie Fox can explain how to get a motion to vote...everyone has a voice Sunday.
The Bible describes a one world religion, and a one world government, ruled and run by the forces of antichrist.
After the rapture, if I'm not mistaken.
Did we miss something?
A not so famous quote by Herr Warren :
"Thank you that there is a movement, a stealth movement, that's flying beneath the radar, that's changing literally hundreds, even thousands of churches around the world."
For further research on this quote and its' implications:
http://www.feasite.org/Foundation/fbcsdlbk.htm
solomon said...
"Actually, there was no unity conspiracy at the heart of this statement. SG was once again trying to justify a major-league, boneheaded screwup instead of admitting he made a mistake."
I want to know how Steve Gaines can make so many mistakes if he is walking with the Lord and praying over his decisions?? It sounds like he is shooting from the hip and thinking with his wallet instead of seeking the Lord? WHY?
Don,
Don,
If I could put things into words as I would like…this (your post of 8:35 AM, March 19, 2007) would be exactly how I would have described the situation in the church today. I almost disagreed with you on mysticism having come before purpose driven and seeker sensitive, but upon giving this more thought, I realize that of course you are correct in your assessment of this. Mysticism has been in play for hundreds of years, whereas purpose driven has not. I do believe however, that the mysticism aspect of the purpose driven movement has been downloaded into play since the movement was first introduced at Saddleback. In other words, I believe RW went PD first, and has since added the mystical element to his movement.
I have been on this blog for some time and was lurking before that. My strong suspicion is that people are not accepting the seriousness of this thing. You have presented it so well…I pray that many will see all of this for what it is. I pray your post will move them to do their own research. I added a post a few days ago I was in hopes would wake many about mysticism, but don’t think it has.
You and I have apparently walked down the same path.
Now The SPIRIT speaketh EXPRESSLY ..
That in latter times, some shall depart from THE FAITH, ...giving heed to seducing spirits and doctrines of devils, having their consciences seared as with a hot iron. 2nd Timothy 4: 1,2
Thank you so much for sharing your knowledge/experience on this blog with others. We both know, as does Lindon and others, that we are not chasing ghosts.
"I want to know how Steve Gaines can make so many mistakes if he is walking with the Lord and praying over his decisions?? It sounds like he is shooting from the hip and thinking with his wallet instead of seeking the Lord?" says mom4
BINGO, we may have a winner! Let's check the cards...LOL
truth rules said...
"I want to know how Steve Gaines can make so many mistakes if he is walking with the Lord and praying over his decisions?? It sounds like he is shooting from the hip and thinking with his wallet instead of seeking the Lord?" says mom4
BINGO, we may have a winner! Let's check the cards...LOL
Truth rules (or does it),
Why do you mock people so badly? Does it make you feel better to beat up on women? the elderly? or do you do it in jest? Just for the fun of being mean? I believe MOM4 had a valid point? Do you not agree?
truth rules: after further review by the judges, I do believe Mom4 is our winner! Ding, Ding, Ding!
Seriously...excellent description, Mom4. Now what?
"Why do you mock people so badly? Does it make you feel better to beat up on women? the elderly? or do you do it in jest? Just for the fun of being mean? I believe MOM4 had a valid point? Do you not agree?" says mrs. c
mrs. c, do you play bingo? When someone says bingo it means that there is a winner. I thought mom4's description was spot on except for replacing his wallet with our wallet. I guess I just beat up on my kind if that's what you think. Think about that for a while.
Ima..
God Bless You
1 post like yours makes 10,000 to the contrary worth it.
Ima..
What came first ..the chicken or the egg ?
Answer:
The mysticism and the resultant " unity conscioussness" came first, the purpose driven chicken program came afterward as a cunningly crafted cloak and cover for the unity conscious induced hirelings to coalesce power and to attract a world full of unity conscious lemmings uhhh er... I mean " seekers " ...into their "worship centers", and provides the needed published seemingly noble cover necessary to banish those older ,faithful , discerning , Bible believing beleivers from their fellowships, for the crime of not being "unified" in PURPOSE or ...
as the mystics say...
unity conscious
Im a resistor too : )))
TRUTH TRUMPS UNITY
JESUS IS TRUTH
ANYTHING LESS...ANY UNITY NOT BASED ON TRUTH IS BABEL
CONFUSION..
OF WHICH,
HOLY GOD IS NOT THE AUTHOR
concerned...
As long as the congregation and staff is ignorant of the facts and refuses to listen to the truth, the Lord only knows what will happen. One would think that this alone would be a reason to fire Steve Gaines, but we know that he is in a financial cushy position and he will never resign unless someone found out something so terrible that he had to save face and resign discreetly. Even then, there would be those who would blame it on the "dissenters" (that would be us truthseekers). LOL
Mom4: Yes, you are right. Therein lies the issue. Don and Ima are correct in that this attitude of importance is self-serving and certainly not God-honoring. I still remain flabbergasted at the "rose-colored glasses" AOG spoke of earlier. I can't understand how a church as strong as BBC has been brought to her knees so quickly. And please don't even try to confuse anyone with the scriptures.....
Hey ...
TRUTH TRUMPS UNITY
That would make a great button.
testing
"Please understand that the problems facing Bellevue are not some 'big picture' conspiracy. If you plan on going to the meeting and standing up to say:"
Solomon, The ONLY problem facing BBC is that the leaders do NOT follow scripture. That alone is evidence they are NOT walking in the light. Everything else is a symptom of NOT following scripture.
Who could sit under a pastor when there is verifiable proof that he does not follow scripture? Perhaps he really does not know scripture and spends very little time there. His sermons are such a hodgepodge of out of context scripture. (Your Acts example is just one of many)
Gaines is an ambitious hireling. As far as the other leaders go...I have watched with my own eyes leaders change when a new top guy comes in. It is called: Follow the leader. Where else are they going to make that kind of money for what they do?
If these men had been following Christ, they would have resigned months ago...mortgage or not.
Dear TruthRules,
Is it not true that the strength and volume of the applause determines whether a motion is passed or defeated at Bellevue?
Now THAT is BIZARRE
---------------------------------
Dear Don,
Thanks so much for your posts. It is obvious that you study The Word of The LORD Jesus at His feet. Your posts are a blessing. Thanks.
lindon: that's the bottom line.
Sign if you think they should go
We can begin to heal if they all go. Don't let a small group of men drive the entire church into a ditch. They need to step aside so trust can be restored. It takes courage to sign your name to my petition. If more of us had courage this crisis would have ended months ago.
Sign if you think they should go
"Is it not true that the strength and volume of the applause determines whether a motion is passed or defeated at Bellevue?" wrote come Lord Jesus
I will expect charlie fox to correct me if I'm wrong or to clarify my answer. I believe that one can call for a written vote if there is sufficient reason to believe that the vote will be close. Also a show of hands can be used. It is ok to have a yea/nay voice vote but that is usually when it's assumed a clear majority vote. I think one can ask for a point of privilege and request the vote be counted in a particular way but let's wait for charlie who seems up to date on Robert's Rules of Order to confirm. Maybe someone else familiar with Robert's Rules can confirm or clarify on voting.
I agree with Don that PDL, seeker, GCM are only outgrowths (methods) of worldliness brought into the church. I do disagree about the mysticism. I doubt many could put that together... although Jung has had incredible influence our churches in America.
What I see happening is a transfer of worldly business growth principles brought into the church. This coincides with Christians becoming such a big market niche. This has been going on for quite a while. YOu can listen to some 'sermons' by people like Ed Young, Billy Hybels, Andy Stanley, etc. and if you close your eyes, it is like listening to a motivational speaker. There is a bit of scripture but mainly it is funny stories about them and it is topical: How to raise kids, have a good marriage, etc. It is self help stuff. Everyone loves it and leaves church feeling great about themselves and wanting to be like their leader.
Success is measured by people joining or Baptisms. (Not by growing in Holiness) The new member 'classes' are really indoctrination on how to be a good 'church' member. (At my former mega they taught this: 1 hour of worship, 1 hour of study, 1 hour of service, tithing each week) That is a joke my friends if we are walking in the light.
The pastors are CEO's and have 'teams'. The church becomes an 'organization' instead of the 'organism' it was meant to be. We start worshipping the 'church' and not God. The church has become an 'idol'. Notice how so many say, I support BBC. Or, I support Gaines. What they should really be saying is that I follow Christ no matter what the cost. They are NOT the same. Any pastor worth his confession would tell you that.
I could go on and on with examples of bringing business principles into the church but won't except to say that like the 'world', following the leader is of utmost importance. But the worst of all is the 'false consensus' that is used. Or the 'majority' rules. Neither are scriptural.
An understanding of scripture would help people realize that very rarely have those that submitted to God been the majority. In both the OT and NT. As a matter of fact, I fear being in any majority. If the world likes it something must be wrong with it!
Here is the bottom line: BBC will grow bigger. And bigger. Just like Willow Creek, Saddleback and the others. The race is on. Being a pastor of these sort of churches is like being a celebrity CEO.
People love this false brand of 'Christianity' because it requires so little of them. They are entertained and feel good when they leave. They lie to themselves and say, 'the Word is being preached here'.
People love it because the focus is on God's love without the full counsel which includes God's wrath, our sin and repentance. (Unless of course you disagree...then you are a big time sinner) Wrath/Love. One without the other is a false Christianity. Don't ever forget that.
If pastors preached a sermon from Spurgeon or Edwards, the pews would empty and they know it.
Matthew 7 is in the scriptures for a reason, folks. It is a warning to be taken very seriously.
TruthRules,
Thanks.
Just a note for all attending Sunday. The meeting will follow according to David Coombs the Roberts Rules of Order. You may want to read up on these rules in order that your voice and concerns will be effectively presented. I haven't gone over those rules since high school civics so I'm just trying to remember back more years than most of you younger folks. But by using these rules it gives a voice to anyone willing to step up to the mic so to speak. Charlie fox mentioned in an earlier post that you will need to have a written copy of your motion. Maybe someone smarter than I can point us to a site with all the rules. I cannot emphasis enough how important it will be to know the rules.
For instance...one could stand and make a motion that the pastor's salary be reduced 30% in light of the problems he has caused. If there is a second then the membership will vote on it. This is something that could possible carry a majority. Maybe a motion just to pass a resolution on how funding is spent. There are a number of possibilities but one needs to do their homework first. As they say in weddings....speak now or forever hold your blog
lindon: You have addressed some of the most distressing aspects of this entire situation. It all goes back to the fact that believers are never given more than milk. Why? They don't want to hear it. They want to feel good about themselves without having to address personal issues that grieve our Heavenly Father. Repent means "to turn away from." Sin has to be faced and lifestyles have to change. That's too hard for those in the world determined to stay there. Accepting Jesus as our Savior is easy; the hard part comes in living to have the Mind of Christ.
lindon said...
"If these men had been following Christ, they would have resigned months ago...mortgage or not."
These men are not following Christ or His Word. If they were, we would not be having the problems we are having.
My son has a saying he keeps, I am not sure where it is from but it is not scripture, still it is a word worth review:
"People change the truth of what other people say to what they are able to understand with the knowledge of the truth they possess".
I am afraid that there are people who have changed the truth to what they believe it to be because they are not comparing it to the truth of God's Word.
Just for clarification purposes I want everyone to know that 3 years ago I was actively promoting these business growth principles in churches. (I am very ashamed of this now)
There was a 'check' in my soul (as you guys like to say) but I could not put my finger on it. I thought I was helping to 'further the Kingdom' but something was not right.
In His Grace, He chose to show me through scripture what was wrong with what I was doing. I had to learn this in a very hard way I would not wish on anyone else.
I say all of this because I want people to understand that I am not some know it all. The more I study scripture the more I realize I don't know a thing. Scripture is so deep!!!( (BTW: I think we will spend eternity studying scripture)
Here is where I am: I really do fear for people caught up in all of this 'churchianity'. I fear for their eternal souls. I see myself in them. And, I do pray for them always.
Grace and peace.
Charlie Fox,
Junk had a good question 3/17 6:08pm
For example, if the first motion is to call for an immediate vote of confidence for the pastor and leadership, and that motion is passed, then any later attempt to call for an open forum meeting to discuss issues would likely be defeated.
Amy says:
If someone did make a motion for a "vote of confidence toward the staff", saying the administration and staff have answered all questions and concerns to the majority's satisfaction. This motion would allow the staff to move forward in the jobs they were called to do, and not get their schedules bogged down with un-necessary Q&A meetings from a minority of un happy people.
How would someone respond? Would you just line up to debate? Call a point of Information?
Also, I think someone can move to adjourn any time after scheduled business is done, they just can't interrupt any one speaking. My understanding is even if it's un finished business, or not everyone has had a chance to be recognized, if the motion to adjourn is called, and passes, the meeting is over. I could be wrong and I can't find my RRs book. I would be afraid someone would call to adjourn and it would pass before some one can debate against the motion. Like a lot of folks, I think the Admin. wants the standing ovation people there when this is brought up and that is why it is Sunday after church and the Celebration Fest
How do you think something like this should be handled?
amy, one thing I can assure you is that the best way to see a call for an adjournment and the majority voting to adjourn is for members to start making inflammatory motions. I think that one has to have some merit to his motion and feel that when presented properly before the membership it will have a chance of passing. For example if someone were to make a motion to fire the pastor, it wouldn't win and it would just incite people to want to end the meeting. But if someone had an issue where common ground could be found...maybe not allowing Bellevue funding to go to a church which supports gays and homosexuals then it has more interest for the majority. The point being is that a motion should be something that affects everyone and not just a statement making motion.
Robert's Rules on nominating:
Closing and Reopening Nominations. Before proceeding to an election, if nominations have been made from the floor or by a committee, the chair should inquire if there are any further nominations. If there is no response he declares the nominations closed. In very large bodies it is customary to make a motion to close nominations, but until a reasonable time has been given, this motion is not in order. It is a main motion, incidental to the nominations and elections, cannot be debated, can be amended as to the time, but can have no other subsidiary motion applied to it. It yields to privileged motions, and requires a two-thirds vote as it deprives members of one of their rights.
Robert's Rules on Voting:
When the vote is taken by voice or show of hands any member has a right to require a division of the assembly by having the affirmative rise and then the negative, so that all may see how members vote. Either before or after a decision any member may call for, or demand, a count, and, if seconded, the chair must put the question on ordering a count. In organizations where it is desired to allow less than a majority vote to order a count or tellers, a special rule should be adopted specifying the necessary vote. Where no rule has been adopted a majority vote is required to order a count, or that the vote be taken by ballot or by yeas and nays (roll call).
sheeplessatbbc said...
ydoesit matter
You have mail.
Please email me back. Thanks
5:23 PM, March 19, 2007
Lindon
Mysticism is the largely unseen glue that holds all of the positive mental attitude, high energy, motivational Business seminars and methods and quite recently church growth princiiples and agendas together.
It is that " bonding and uniting " burst of human potentiality and fresh new harmony with nature that springs from age-old mysticism that softens the practitioners into readily rejecting Biblical prohibitions that Biblically prohibit humanistic harmony with unbeleivers.The church growth movement could never have convinced 40 to 50,000 pastors worldwide of such a program as is found in Rick Warrens new paradigm, ...unless the recipients had been " prepared to accept " this new paradigm, ...long before it showed up in bound books.This new wholesale embrace of what 200 years of Christian Faith and Biblical adherence and practice would have quickly and assuredly called abomination,...is a sure sign that the minds of the adherents were " prepared" long in advance.
The glue is the mysticism ..and it(mysticism ) is at the core and root of all so called " positive " mental attitude ideologies...
These vain philosophies are emanating from the world of the occult and not from THE HOLY SPIRIT
The Holy Spirit has already spoken about who to bond with and with whom the redeemed are to avoid fellowship with.
Unity conscious mysticism plainly destoys the God given malleable conscience that warns of Biblical dangers.
That is what spiritism does..
It sears consciences...
making previously held evil and Biblical bominations ,....tolerable
aka ..
The Vanishing Conscience...
Satan hates a properly working Holy Spirit led conscience...and seeks to feed spiritual mystical poison to it...
to still it...or deaden it...
Blessings to you
Come, LORD Jesus! said...
Dear TruthRules,
Is it not true that the strength and volume of the applause determines whether a motion is passed or defeated at Bellevue?
Now THAT is BIZARRE
REPLY:
Applause is NOT a Robert's Rules recognized method of voting. A voice vote is the normal method. If you doubt the results of a voice vote, you can call a "Division". That requires the vote to be taken again by rising.
Amy says:
If someone did make a motion for a "vote of confidence toward the staff", saying the administration and staff have answered all questions and concerns to the majority's satisfaction. This motion would allow the staff to move forward in the jobs they were called to do, and not get their schedules bogged down with un-necessary Q&A meetings from a minority of un happy people.
How would someone respond? Would you just line up to debate? Call a point of Information?
REPLY:
Once a motion is made and seconded, it is open for discussion and possible amendments. The discussion should alternate between those for the motion and those against the motion. The discussion continues until all parties are heard, or someone "calls the question". If the question is "called", then you vote on whether to cease discussion or not. Depending on the results of that vote, you either continue the discussion or vote on the question.
amy said...
Also, I think someone can move to adjourn any time after scheduled business is done, they just can't interrupt any one speaking. My understanding is even if it's un finished business, or not everyone has had a chance to be recognized, if the motion to adjourn is called, and passes, the meeting is over.
Reply:
You cannot adjourn with unfinished business or an open motion.
truth rules said...
amy, one thing I can assure you is that the best way to see a call for an adjournment and the majority voting to adjourn is for members to start making inflammatory motions. I think that one has to have some merit to his motion and feel that when presented properly before the membership it will have a chance of passing. For example if someone were to make a motion to fire the pastor, it wouldn't win and it would just incite people to want to end the meeting. But if someone had an issue where common ground could be found...maybe not allowing Bellevue funding to go to a church which supports gays and homosexuals then it has more interest for the majority. The point being is that a motion should be something that affects everyone and not just a statement making motion.
REPLY:
I TOTALLY AGREE!!!
"Here is the bottom line: BBC will grow bigger. And bigger. Just like Willow Creek, Saddleback and the others. The race is on. Being a pastor of these sort of churches is like being a celebrity CEO."
Lindon is exactly right in her statement here. Reason being...it is now appealing to the world, not the Christians. You will see mega entertainement in the manner you would never have imagined seeing inside a church building. Willow Creek recently had a scantily cladded young woman soaring above the congregation on a flying trapeze. Rappers are commonplace in the mega-churches these days. But understand this...the Body of Christ will have already cleared the building...they will have already have 'separated themselves' from the world inside the church by then. So...resistors, don't dismay. This is the way it is...the bible is clear on it. The road has been rough, the journey long...but you will have endured the persecution and your reward will be great. Charles Spurgeon said something to the extent that God abhors the church that the world loves. So, yes BBC will grow just as Lindon says...just you wait and see. But resistors, count yourselves amond the blessed that you will not be among those left.
ima,
You have mail.
Charlie
Solomon, The ONLY problem facing BBC is that the leaders do NOT follow scripture. That alone is evidence they are NOT walking in the light. Everything else is a symptom of NOT following scripture.
Lindon, have you ever been to Bellevue? I really think you are speaking out of turn.
Did I say the leaders follow scripture? If so, let me correct myself - they have NOT! N-O-T.
Some seem to feel like they are under some occult force that prevents it. I disagree. I agree with your later post about the business principles.
Why haven't they followed the Word? Pride. P-R-I-D-E. Plain and simple. More money. More people. The philosophy of "if God hasn't stepped in yet, he probably won't. Besides, he's a God of Grace..." is all over the place! Come and see for yourself.
When the sentence for a crime is not quickly carried out, the hearts of the people are filled with schemes to do wrong."
Oh how true the words of King Solomon are in our church!
Solve the pride problem first, and go from there. You do no one any favors by muddying the waters with PDL hysteria.
Don said...
"Im a resistor too : )))"
The initiation is a little rough, but the membership is grand. You need to email me and tell you your story.
"1 post like yours makes 10,000 to the contrary worth it."
Thanks...
So comical the remark you make about the chicken and the egg. I had included that in my post to you and took it out at the last minute. :)
"But resistors, count yourselves among the blessed that you will not be among those left." say imaresistor.
ima, I am sure the Bible has some specifics on judging other Christians. Let those who choose to leave, leave. But to be so bold and prideful to place yourself as the spiritual judge of those who remain is wrong, wrong, wrong. To say this would be like saying that the majority of members at Bellevue are not as spiritual as ones that leave. I think that comes across as more sour grapes than as genuine love for other Christians. Most of the members in my BBF I have know for at least 15 years. They are very spirit filled Christians. Most are committed to remain at Bellevue. I would not dare say to one of them that they are lacking in spiritual discernment or anything else because of their choice. And you certainly do not know the personal relationship to Christ of the majority of the members who are staying. What you are saying should offend all who love Christ.
Truth Rules,
Shouldn't we love our friends enough to make an attempt to show them HOW scripture is not being followed??? Or that being loyal to BBC may not be loyalty to Christ and His word???
I appreciate when the people that love me share their discernment or wisdom with me ..even when they tell me I am out of line.
I would not listen to someone that didn't love me or that is not an example in their own life but I feel loved and grateful when I am guided by my true Christian friends.
When Jesus talked with 'Nick' in John 3. Jesus was God his Savior not teacher. Nicodemus' assumption was that Jesus was a teacher come from God. Nicodemus erred in two ways. He assumed that Jesus was a subordinate one who came from God. He also thought that Jesus' primary goal was to be a teacher. While Jesus had a teaching role it was a limited one. Jesus primary mission was to be the Savior of the world. Jesus said, "Verily, verily I say unto thee, We speak that we do know, and testify that we have seen; and ye receive not our witness. If I have told you earthly things, and ye believed not, how shall ye believe, if I tell you of heavenly things."
The Holy Spirit and Jesus are triune members of the Godhead both sent from God. Jesus said if I remain on earth with you and teach you, you will not be able to bear it. But if I go away I will send you a teacher. You will be born and taught by him.
"All things that the Father hath are mine: therefore saith I, that he shall take of mine, and shall give it unto you."
Charlie,
You cannot adjourn with unfinished business or an open motion.
Thanks! I stand corrected!
Greetings, fellow strangers and aliens.
I’ve seen a little bit of dismay that preachers feed their congregations milk instead of meat. I agree, and I think it’s up to us to study God’s Word ourselves.
I read a really good quote from a preacher on the west coast:
“The Bible teaches us that we cannot be disciples of Jesus Christ if we do not have a regular intake of the Word of God. On one occasion Jesus said to his followers, ‘If you continue in my word, then are you my disciples indeed; and you shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.’ As we look back through the history of the Christian church, we find that the common denominator of every great man and woman of God is that they knew the Scriptures and spent consistent, regular time with the Lord in his Word.
“Never before in history has the Bible been more available to the Western world. Yet never before has there been such a famine of God’s Word… We live in a day of biblical illiteracy, even among many people of God.”
He goes on to say, ”The average American watches more than 4 hours of TV each day – which packed together would be 61 days of TV viewing per year… By age 65 the average American will have spent 9.5 years in front of the tube.
“If, on the other hand, a person went to Sunday school regularly from birth until age 65, he would only have had a total of four months of solid Bible teaching. Is it any wonder that there are so many weak Christians in Western society? We have to discipline ourselves and make specific time for Bible study, and not let anything get in its way.”
Rick Warren, “Rick Warren’s Bible Study Methods”. Zondervan, 1981, 2006.
Now if you’ll pardon me, I’m going to take Mr. Warren’s advice and go study my Bible.
This is certainly off of the subject, but is there anyone that will please pray for me?
Last March 31st, The LORD Jesus took my precious Daddy home to be with Him. Less than 2 months later, He welcomed my beloved Momma Home to be with Him for all of eternity.
My heart is breaking over this today and the grief is overwhelming me. The LORD Jesus will help me, I know this, but right this moment it is as if I am not a 54 year-old woman but, instead, a little 5 year-old girl. My beloved husband has and is praying for me. I know I am not grieving as one who has no hope, but it sure is hurting. I need to take my nap before work tonight and simply cannot rest well.
Will you please pray for me, too?
Bonita Ann Richie
"Shouldn't we love our friends enough to make an attempt to show them HOW scripture is not being followed???" wrote gmommylv
And not being followed by whom? Our pastor? I think that has been pointed out more than once. He has acknowledge as much and asked for the church's forgiveness. But the implementation was that we have individual members who are less spiritual than those who blog on this site. That is where my issue lies. Quite frankly I could spend most of the day showing many bloggers on this site how they are not following Scripture in some of the things they post. But that is not my place. I will allow God's Word and the Holy Spirit to guide them in their walk.
The problem I have is that feeling of "if you're not with us then you're Scripturally wrong". John McArthur wrote a book a number of years ago. I believe it was called the "Lordship Salvation". It was strong on fruit bearing and works oriented because of having Jesus as Lord of our lives. But it was weak on grace which diminishes our foundation at the cross. Another writer, I believe his last name to be Bryant wrote a counter book to McArthur's. It was called I think "Saving Grace". But it took a strong position on our salvation by grace but was not as strong on works or the Lordship of Christ. I can't say that either was totally right or totally wrong in their positions. Both had merit and both agreed that Christ was Lord and Christ's blood was shed for our salvation. The point being is that we all have varying degrees of opinion on Scripture. I just know too many members that are spirit filled Christians which know the Scriptures far better than I and/or most on this blog. They see the same problems as you but they also see that forgiveness is better than bitterness. And Christ didn't say just forgive them once...
God, may the richness of the memories of Bonita's parents and the promise of their eternal home with You comfort her is a special way today. While her parents have the joy of sitting at Your feet may she have the joy in the knowledge of knowing that she one day will experience that same joy....and no more sorrow for eternity. Amen.
arminius
your preacher misquoted the word or you misquoted him. There is not a famine of the Word there is a famine of hearing the Word.
Also this famine is not a neglect of Bible readers to diligently study the Word but is a famine sent by God. God withholds the hearing and understanding of it. They will run to and fro to seek the Word of the Lord and shall not find it.
Bonita Ann: I have just prayed for you, and I will continue to do so. Sometimes the grief washes over us, doesn't it? I'm sorry for your loss.
Bonita Ann, I too am praying for you. Others of your church family know the pain of such personal loss, and know too the comfort of our precious Heavenly Father at such moments when the "remembrances" are so strong. May He give you comfort and peace, and may your sweet memories of your beloved parents be a never-ending source of joy to you. Remember, He has promised to never leave you or forsake you, and you can rest in that assurance.
mjm
come, lord jesus!,
My Momma went home this past Dec. 20. It was the best Christmas she has had in years. She got to spend it with our LORD, my Dad, her Mom, Dad and siblings. Plus she had no pain and suffering.
Bonita,
I am praying you especially experience God's grace as you grieve. I know it is with thanksgiving to God when you think of His wonderful promise of eternal life, and the glory your parents are in. I loved the prayer Truth Rules prayed, and I will pray in the same manner. Thank you for sharing and giving us an opportunity to pray for you.
"Why haven't they followed the Word? Pride. P-R-I-D-E. Plain and simple. More money. More people. The philosophy of "if God hasn't stepped in yet, he probably won't. Besides, he's a God of Grace..." is all over the place! Come and see for yourself."
Sorry Sol, You just described the GCM perfectly. It comes in all shapes and sizes. But it is about money, growth, celebrity. It is NOT hysteria. It is a fact. So, I ask you, how come your leaders have not fallen on their faces in shame for ignoring the Word? There is a good reason.
What is the root of all sin? And where does all this "Pride" come from?
Have I been to BBC? I have been to hundreds of them. That is the problem. It is the same thing over and over. Some wear ties and some wear big flower shirts...yet, underneath, they are all the same.
"If, on the other hand, a person went to Sunday school regularly from birth until age 65, he would only have had a total of four months of solid Bible teaching."
Arminius, We would have to assume they were actually studying scripture in context in SS. Not some fluffy false teaching like 'self forgiveness' or something like that.
Perhaps you can explain Warren's bizarre teaching of scripture in the PDL?
here is a tool you may find helpful
http://cicministry.org/berean.php
Don, you are right. The roots of all of this come from the Gnostics all the way to the Enlightenment: MAN CENTERED
"The point being is that we all have varying degrees of opinion on Scripture. I just know too many members that are spirit filled Christians which know the Scriptures far better than I and/or most on this blog. They see the same problems as you but they also see that forgiveness is better than bitterness. And Christ didn't say just forgive them once... "
You may want to do a study in the NT on false teachers. No one should be 'bitter' about a false teacher: They should be petrified. And, they should warn others to get into scripture.
I guess you and I will always disagree about a pastor with 20+ years experience allowing one of his ministers who raped his son to stay on staff in the capacity of a minister. He ignored quite a bit of scripture to come to that decision. That would scare me. Yes, please do forgive him... but to sit under his teaching? That does not scare you?
"The problem I have is that feeling of "if you're not with us then you're Scripturally wrong"."
On essentials?
" John McArthur wrote a book a number of years ago. I believe it was called the "Lordship Salvation". "
All you have to do is study Matthew 5-7. It is quite clear and it is NOT works. It comes from a love of the Lord.
Don said,
A not so famous quote by Herr Warren :
"Thank you that there is a movement, a stealth movement, that's flying beneath the radar, that's changing literally hundreds, even thousands of churches around the world."
Below is a link to a thirty second spot aired over Christmas nationally on FOX NEWS. It goes hand in hand with the quote Don posted
PDL Commercial
Bonita, Please go read Psalms 116:15.
Also,
2 Corinthians 1: 3-7
These will bring you comfort: The promises of God
Lin,
Couldn't get to the cicministry.org/berean.php BUT got to alot of other wonderful articles!! Saving and studying!! I knew nothing about these great places to get study materials before this blog now I can't get enough!! No excuses for me anymore!!
Amy, I saw a clip not long ago where the president of Rwanda said that PDL brought 'healing' to his country. Not the Bible, mind you. The PDL.
Scary.
Here's another video from my PDL links
Grow Your Church
It's taken from the Willow Creek Website about Growing Your Church.
It's longer, but just as scary. Especially the part about telling preachers they don't have to waste their precious time writing sermons- use these!
Oh- Grow Your Church video is best seen when you enlarge the video to full screen
gmommylv said, "Couldn't get to the cicministry.org/berean.php BUT got to alot of other wonderful articles!! Saving and studying!! I knew nothing about these great places to get study materials before this blog now I can't get enough!! No excuses for me anymore!!"
Oh gmommylv! Isn't this site just wonderful! Bob DeWaay is just incredible...wonderful, wonderful pastor! You need to go there and download his CD's..."Redefining Christianity-Understanding the Purpose Driven Movement"; there are several of them. I have the book by the same title and have read it...it is great. I recdommend it highly. This man stays with the Scriptures! Great teacher. Also go to oneplace.com for his messages.
After our article came out in the WSJ, and Suzanne Sataline had mentioned Bob DeWaay's book in the article because she had sought his counsel, I called Lifeway to get Bob DeWaay's book for a friend. They told me they didn't have this book and it wasn't in their catalog. So, I emailed Lifeway about this and asked why they didn't carry this great book. Their reply in a return email to me, in part was:
" The main reason we do not carry this book is that it attacks The Purpose Driven Life by Rick Warren." "I participated in a "Purpose Driven Life" study in our church. Frankly, I was uneasy with some parts of the study, especially the section on salvation. The issue that this book is weak on sin and repentance has been reported to Rick Warren, and we have been given assurance that the next edition of the book will strengthen the discussion of sin and repentance."
So...they didn't carry Bob DeWaay's book because it attacked Rick Warren's PDL, even though he said that they were uneasy about it. So...you tell me. :)
Dear TruthRules, Concerned SBCer, Maybejustmaybe, Charlie Fox, and Lin,
I can't find words to express to you the gratefulness and thankfulness I have for each one of you and your words to me and your prayers for me tonight. I also appreciate the glorious scriptures that were given to me by Lin. They indeed are a comfort to the heavy and burdened soul. I am ready to go to work and while I did not nap, I did rest and The LORD Jesus has taken that overwhelming flood of grief off of me. I have asked Him to bless each one who has prayed for me tonight. Oh, how thankful I am for each one of you!!!
Bro. Charlie, I will pray for you in this time of your earthly loss of your Momma. May The Holy Spirit comfort you as ONLY The Holy spirit can do.
Maybejustmaybe, I know there are so many that say that The LORD Jesus does not speak to people anymore but your words to me were that I was to remember that He had promised me that He will never leave or forsake me. What you did not know when you reminded me of this was that about 12(?) or so years ago, I was in a state of depression for several days and one evening I took my nap before work and before I woke up I actually heard a beautiful tenor-sounding male voice that said "I will never leave you and I will never, ever forsake you." I wondered to myself "Was that The LORD?" I went on to work and was doing my nightly chores in the nursing home I was working at in Kentucky (I didn't move to TN til after Stephen and I married last April 2006). I went into a room to take care of a patient with a feeding tube as I did every night there. Her roommate had her t.v. on and while I was there in the room, a break came that had a minister on the t.v. Out of the minister's mouth I heard the words, "Let us remember that He has promised never to leave us or forsake us." I KNEW then that it was indeed our Father that had spoken this to me before I woke up that evening. Oh, what comfort He gave to me. Thanks for reminding me of something He had said to me not only in His Word but also as I rested so many years ago. I needed to be reminded. I am so thankful He spoke this to me through you tonight.
May the eternal God and Father of our LORD and Savior Jesus Christ bless and keep each one of you.
Once again, I thank you, my Brothers and Sisters. THANK YOU!!!
Bonita Ann Richie
Some on this blog have stated that there is no conspiracy and that the issues at Bellevue are isolated. I think this is very niave.
Don and Imaresistor have made very legitimate points. Whether our pastor has read the book or not is beside the point. Whether he is consciously implementing PDC at Bellevue does not matter. Ultimately it is SATAN who is the father of lies, the author of deception, with a burning lust for power and the building of empires that bow to man and pad the pockets of political darlings who call themselves pastors.
Satan is the conspirator who destroys the church using the arrogance and greed of men.
Prophecy shows us a one-world church and this is where all this tolerance, the gospel of unity and ecuminical trash is taking us.
No, a motion making reference to this would be laughed to scorn.
Those deceived by this hijacking cannot see beyond their noses. The attitudes we have seen from our own leadership are the same ones we see on Pastors.com - this is not just BBC. This hijacking is going on all over.
As Dr. Rogers stated, it is growing gloriously dark.
Last year I stumbled on Pastors.com searching for something else and I was shocked when I read the steps on transitioning your church, I had never heard of the PDC movement. Our church was following those steps to the letter. Even before I understood what the PDC was about, it bothered me that the steps were so calculating, deceptive and arrogant. I noticed on Pastors.com they don't have those articles posted anymore- I guess to many church members caught on. The savingbellevue site copied them and has the steps on it's Church Growth Links. Worth a look see.
Piglet said, "As Dr. Rogers stated, it is growing gloriously dark."
Piglet...It is, it is growing gloriously dark. And for good reason. Time is short...Jesus is coming for us soon.
Ima: I am ready. Come, Lord Jesus, Come.
Amy said
I had never heard of the PDC movement. Our church was following those steps to the letter.
Piglet says:
Didn't you mention that you were at GBC? Please tell me you are talking about another church(?)
Imaresistor and Concerned
I'm ready for the trumpet sound!!!
Me too, Piglet. The thing is, until it blows, we have to continue serving and working for Him, even when we would really wish to be "somewhere else." That's the hard part, I think. To be so ready, so heartbroken, so disgusted.....yet know we still have a job to do until He takes us up.
Concerned
I know what you are saying is true. Our family has been hard at work in the midst of this , trying to get the truth out.
This has strengthened my faith in God but severly hurt my faith in man. Maybe that is a good thing but I am fighting cycicism.
Still, I believe we need to encourage one another in these dark days and "be ready to give a reason for the hope the we have".
We have suffered little for our stand in comparison to Christ's sufferings! A few scathing letters, dirty looks and rebukes from the leadership...what a privilege if we have suffered at all.
We have witnessed the body of Christ at work in all of this and we have seen the attacks of the enemy. The truth of scripture is unfolding before our very eyes. Praise God. In many ways these are exciting days.
Oops.
Above should say "I am fighting cynicism" :)
Piglet: brilliant post. exactly.
"This has strengthened my faith in God but severly hurt my faith in man." I know exactly what you mean.
When man or a building is elevated to a position reserved for God only....it is and should be a very fearful thing.
We fear man more than God.
We honor men who disobey God.
We HAVE suffered little.
The amazing thing about God is that he knows the number of hairs on my head. Yet he is not concerned about the number of people who are saved. Men are anxious about numbers. We hold to the view of sin entering the world through one man and thus all have sinned. So one man means the world to God! God so loved the world that WHOSOEVER believeth. .
God is not concerned about 99 just people, he "layeth it (the one lost sheep) on his shoulders rejoicing."
We say that the angels are rejoicing in heaven over the lost soul who is saved. I believed the angels are silent but there is one in their midst rejoicing and that is God himself giving an end zone victory dance while the angels stand dumbfounded. David danced before the people alone while everyone else watched. It was an embarrssing spectacle to sofisticated people.
Does God view Bellevue differently because 800 people were baptized over a small struggling country church where one was baptized in one year? Does God view Billy Graham better than the missionary who may have only one convert in a year or even a lifetime.? The last shall be first.
I married one of the prettiest girls at our small christian college in 1972. I fell in love with her in 1970 before we ever dated. Our school had mandatory chapel services every Tuesday and Thursday. On one occassion in order to envolve the basketball team in 'spiritual' matters they were put in charge of the service that day. It was a spectacle to see all the team (not very enthused) take their seats on the stage. Several were designated to give their testimony and one who was asked to share his faith broke down and started weeping. The next moment weeping broke out through the student body and students were rushing to the altar. This activity lasted 72 hours. The faculty sat dumbfounded in their designated seating in the balcony. The administration suspended all classes and activities and from dorm to dorm there was revival. Every available space on campus was made into a sanctuary. My wife was on her back on the floor (if she knows I'm telling this she will kill me) of the science floor auditorium with her hands raised to heaven praising God. It was just a glance on my part but she won my heart. God gave her to me.
Yesterday, for the first time, I told my 30 YO daughter about this.
She was in her kitchen and I put my arms around her and said, "did I ever tell you about your conception?" She said, "daddy, don't even go there with this, I don't want to hear about it!"
I said, "I mean your spiritual conception, when you were just a gleam in your fathers' eye."
I related this story to her. I had never told her. Untold stories could be told about this great awakening on our campus. Missionaries and ministers and my little clan of daughters and grandchildren were begun.
The thing about this is that It began with one 'backsliden' basketball player with a contrite and broken heart sensitive to God. The facutly sat cross-armed in their seats for the most part knowing the chaos and confusion that would break out. and it did. Rather than resist this movement they suspended activitities and went to their ivory towers to wait it out probally prepared to form committies to undo the damage done. What they did was very commendable on their part. What a great school!
According to Paul only an ignorant person or an idiot would resist the move of God with his people. The person that would resist it would be a foreigner or barbarian even if he were a pastor or administrator.
Piglet said:
Didn't you mention that you were at GBC? Please tell me you are talking about another church(?)
Amy says:
This was last year when the new bylaws were proposed that would change GBC into an elder led church. That is one of the steps btw- change the bylaws.
Anyway, I emailed the excutive pastor about my concerns and he emailed me back assuring me GBC’s vision did not include being a PDC. Then I found this:
GBC Pastors.com
I remember thinking, “We’ve met the enemy, and it is us!”
We are not a PDC, but were on our way to becoming one.
Warren reveals his goal and love for a kingdom on "earth",
On the occasion of Saddleback’s 25th anniversary celebration, Warren stated that his “P.E.A.C.E. plan will be a ‘revolution’ for global Christianity” and “I’m looking at a stadium full of people who are telling God they will do whatever it takes to establish God’s Kingdom ‘on earth as it is in heaven.’” ...and ..willingness to do " whatever it takes" to establish one. [end quote]
Gods Word instructs:
My kingdom is not of this world
and
I marvel that ye are so soon removed from Him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel: Which is not another, but there be some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ. But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed." Galatians 1:6-9
Two Christs , Two Kingdoms, Two Paths, Two Eternities
Brothers and Sisters
I implore you to read this comparative chart showing the true Jesus Christ and contrasting Him with the false universal or global Christ "consciousness"
URL is below
http://www.crossroad.to/charts/two-paths.htm
The coming of the "universal christ " for the many who are ONE
versus the coming of the LORD Jesus Christ for the " few" that are HIS
http://inthenameofpurpose.org/chp24.htm
• The Lord Jesus Christ is the truth, not relativism.
• The universal “Christ” is relativism, not the truth.
• The Lord Jesus Christ’s narrow way is the Kingdom of God.
• The universal “Christ’s” broad way is the kingdom of the god of this world, the Angel of light.
• The Lord Jesus Christ’s narrow way leads to eternal life.
• The universal “Christ’s” broad way leads to eternal destruction.
• The Lord Jesus Christ’s narrow way is the way of the faith, as set forth in His Holy Scriptures.
• The universal “Christ’s” broad way is the way of works in any faith.
• The Lord Jesus Christ’s narrow way is the way of repentance and forsaking the world’s ways and thoughts.
• The universal “Christ’s” broad way is the way of preserving and conforming to the world’s ways and thoughts.
• The Lord Jesus Christ’s narrow way is the way of believing.
• The universal “Christ’s” broad way is the journey of becoming through doing.
• The Lord Jesus Christ unites through faith in the eternal Word of truth.
• The universal “Christ” unites through spiritual experience, purpose, vision, and mystery apart from the truth.
• The Lord Jesus Christ is coming for the few separated from the broad way.
• The universal “Christ” is coming for the many united on the broad way.
• The Lord Jesus Christ is coming for those who are in Him by faith and being born again of the Holy Spirit.
• The universal “Christ” is coming for those who have relativistically “centered” around Jesus apart from scriptural doctrine.
• The Lord Jesus Christ is coming for those who yield their lives and selves to Him as Lord.
• The universal “Christ” is coming for those who pattern their lives and works after Jesus but do not follow Him as Lord.
• The Lord Jesus Christ is coming for those who have an eternal relationship with God on the narrow way.
• The universal “Christ” is coming for those who have a temporal, seeming relationship with God on the broad way.
• The Lord Jesus Christ is coming for His faithful believers in true Christianity who abide in His doctrine of the faith.
• The universal “Christ” is coming for his followers in the New Spirituality who abide in their own doctrine of any faith (religion).
• The Lord Jesus Christ is coming for the few who are His.
• The universal “Christ” is coming for the many who are ONE.
Which one is coming for you?
"Some on this blog have stated that there is no conspiracy and that the issues at Bellevue are isolated. I think this is very naive." writes piglet..
The thing about conspiracy theories is that it almost always based on inferences rather than facts. The fact is our former pastor introduced the church to the PDL movement and our current pastor has never read the book. But it is assumed our current pastor rather than our former is leading us to this direction. It amazes me what flavored coffees and comfortable seating can do to one's imagination. I went through PDL with members of our BFC. I don't recall anyone being fearful that we were going through a movement. And I am far from being naive and would be one of the more cynical persons you would meet. I would like someone to show me where something in the PDL book is an outright conflict with Scripture.
One thing about perceptions is it depends on which side of the "itty bitty" fence you're sitting. Two of my good friends are members of the churches of Christ fellowship. Mind you that in their mind it is not a denomination but the true church. They tell me that instrument music and special music is wrong and distracts from the worship service. They tell me that the Holy Spirit and salvation comes at the point of baptism. I would tell them that we are baptized because we are saved and not in order to be saved. As Dr. Rogers would explain, "you don't get a speeding ticket so that you can speed, you got one because you were speeding". My point here is that they question my salvation and that our church is not following Scripture (this back during Dr. Rogers time). But what they think and/or believe doesn't make it so. And if someone thinks our church is on the path of being a PDC doesn't make it so. And yes piglet, I think our issues are isolated, isolated to our pastor's actions or lack thereof.
Amy said...
Last year I stumbled on Pastors.com searching for something else and I was shocked when I read the steps on transitioning your church, I had never heard of the PDC movement. Our church was following those steps to the letter. Even before I understood what the PDC was about, it bothered me that the steps were so calculating, deceptive and arrogant. I noticed on Pastors.com they don't have those articles posted anymore- I guess to many church members caught on. The savingbellevue site copied them and has the steps on it's Church Growth Links. Worth a look see.
REPLY:
amy,
It is still there. Ya just gotta know where to look.
How To Transition
Amy,
Thanks for your post. Took a look at the article you cited.
While we are enemies of the Purpose Driven theology, we do rejoice that God used GBC to help those so desperate for help. So many lost souls.
It sure beats what our lying pastor (who is "purpose driven" with himself and his pocketbook as his obvious PURPOSE while DRIVEN by his pride and covetousness) at BBC did when he gave 25,000 dollars of The LORD Jesus' money to a pro-abortion and pro-homosexual group that masquerade under the name "church".
We have STILL not recovered from THAT shock!!!
Heading soon to bed. Have a glorious and blessed day in Jesus, Amy. You are a very special treasure from God to all of us.
Top ten million reasons Purpose Driven Life is in direct conflict with Scripture
http://www.inthenameofpurpose.org/page2.html
Thanks Charlie!
I don't know why I couldn't find it. I am old and weary.....
gentle warrior said...
Senior Pastor increase was 3%.
Has anyone figured what a 3% increase would be to the Senior Pastor..Most members do not even make the 3% amount he would receive. How sad!!!!!!!!!
Has anyone watched the number of people that go to accept Christ or move their membership to Bellevue on Sunday mornings in comparision with a few years ago. I do not believe their numbers at all. I remember the days when the counceling room would be overflowing and people would be streaming down from the balcony. Not anymore folks. Remember the days we were asked to move in and leave the seats on the end of the rows for the late comers...Not anymore.. Plenty of seats...I remember the days when they would have to put more seats in the choir because of so many wanting to sing in the choir... Not any more.....Has anyone taken a look at the 11 o'clock service. You could park a 1047 inside. I remember the days when we would leave the 9:30 service and have people waiting for a parking space.. Not anymore. Park close as you want....And they want us to believe the numbers are there.What a farce.
Truth Rules said...
"I went through PDL with members of our BFC. I don't recall anyone being fearful that we were going through a movement."
I went through PDL with my GBC SS class too,I thought it was O.K- I did notice there was one scripture where only the first part was quoted about God's love, and the part about justice for wickedness was left out. I can't remember the passage, but growing up with years of Bible Memory Drills(two years I won my age division!) I thought "I think there is more to that verse."
I just didn't know there was a whole movement to change your church, and that the measure of a sucessfull church was all about numbers. I remember reading an interview with Rick Warren where he was questioned about some of his spiritual interpretations and he said God was blessing his ways- the proof was in the numbers! I remember thinking what about the Mormons, they have had a huge growth explosion- should would we take up their beliefs?
Truth Rules,
The name you use is deceiful. You are not posting to bring truth but confusion. God over rules you....we are seeking God's truth NOT man's truth.
If no one mentioned the words purpose driven ....BBC still has a Sr. Pastor who has disobeyed God's word not once but many times.
You say he has asked for forgiveness. Where is his repentance and shame AND FEAR of the Lord?? Where are the consequences that a contrite heart would be more than willing to accept.
This is not about a conspiracy....those are the words you inject to deflect.
This is about rejecting false teaching.....Biblical...not conspiracy.
Truth does and will rule.
gmommylv
Amen
I salute your Biblical discernment
"Top ten million reasons Purpose Driven Life is in direct conflict with Scripture" wrote Don.
Don, I don't know if you are a member of our local fellowship called Bellevue Baptist or not. But if you were you would know that Dr. Rogers had all the BFC (Sunday School Classes) go through the Purpose Drive Life. He also preached messages from the pulpit during this time based on concepts from the book. I don't have the time today to devout to Tamara Hartzell's rendition of what's wrong with the PDL but I did read enough of her writings to realize she would have had an issue with Bellevue Baptist Church during the time Dr. Rogers was our pastor. One of the more interesting aspects of her writing was that she found that by bringing all our burdens and laying them at Christ's feet that we were making worship man centered. She would probably have had an issue with Jesus who met people at their place of needs and provided healing for the body before healing for the soul. Placing one's burden's of the flesh at Christ's feet is not man centered it is man acknowledging that Christ and only Him has the power to work within our lives. What she calls man centered I would call emptying one of his fleshly concerns and replacing that with the filling of the Holy Spirit. Unless we empty ourselves of us we have no place for the Holy Spirit.
And a side note to Amy...Jesus didn't say go into your local homes or your local neighborhoods, He said go to "all nations" (the world). So maybe the measure of success should be numbers. As Dr. Rogers would say when Bellevue was criticized about our numbers, "growth is the results of a healthy church and we shouldn't get sick just to make others happy". Jesus didn't teach in the church buildings of his day. He went out to the people at their place and postion in live. When did we get so proud that we cannot find the means to take Christ to the world. I would rather have a church that is friendly to sinners that one that limits the Gospel only to the saved. The Word is still preached at Bellevue and I'm all for more coming to hear that Word preached.
Don, When I am weak...HE is strong.
This whole thing broke me....literally..... The Potter is reshaping me as He sees fit ...making me into a new vessel. Praise God He is not finished with me yet!!!
"This is not about a conspiracy....those are the words you inject to deflect." wrote gmommylv.
You must go back and read my post to determine who injected the conspiracy factor. It was piglet not I. But you my friend have now done what you've accused me of doing.
rule #1
Stop referring to Bro. Rogers to deflect from Steve Gaines. Mrs. R is still grieving for her husband and you show no respect to her by dragging her husband and our beloved teacher into this pitt that Gaines has put BBC in.
Bro Rogers was a man also...not Christ. But he was a "man." He would have already stepped down had he brought the national public shame to the church he pastored.
Unlike Gaines who believes he has done nothing wrong and throws tantrums and demands apologies and resignations from those who speak against him.
Stop speaking against a man you wouldn't have to guts to say these things to if he were alive.
Stop disrespecting Mrs. Rogers. She is suffering enough. Cowards operate like you and Gaines do. Not God's men.
"The name you use is deceitful. You are not posting to bring truth but confusion." wrote gmommylv
Just for your clarification...Truth Rules is in reference to our Lord and Savior who is the Truth. And yes He does indeed rule over us. I also use it because Dr. Rogers would tell us that it doesn't matter what we think of the truth, that the truth is still the truth. So therefore what you thought my sign on meant wasn't the truth. I make no claims that my posts are absolute truths but my words are the truth as I understand it to be. I don't assume that those who post on this blog are always in fact truth. But I do know it to be what they believe to be true. And finally just because one takes a position counter to your doesn't mean she is causing confusion. Am I not entitled to my position even though it may differ from some?
"Stop speaking against a man you wouldn't have to guts to say these things to if he were alive." wrote gmommylv
I don't have a clue as to who or what you are referencing. Dr. Rogers was a friend and my hero. If you are referencing me show me one time I have shown any disrespect for Dr. Rogers. To bring Mrs. Rogers grief into this discussion is disingenuous and reprehensible.
The fish arent biting .
Praise The Lord
new bbc open forum, I respectfully ask you to review the remarks by gmommylv and consider deleting her post. To call one a coward from behind a computer screens only reflects back to that person.
2nd JOHN 9-11
Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God. He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son.
10 If there come any unto you, and bring not this doctrine, receive him not into your house, neither bid him God speed: 11 For he that biddeth him God speed is partaker of his evil deeds.
So..
Even greeting one who does not abide in the "doctrine of Christ "
makes one a partaaker of his "evil deeds".
Hmmm
I wonder what sending them 25 grand does?
ACTS 20; 26-32
Paul declaring that he is not guilty of the blood of all men...becuase he has preached " all " of the counsel of GOD..ALL OF IT
not just the love and good feelings stuff
Wherefore I take you to record this day, that I am pure from the blood of all men. 27 For I have not shunned to declare unto you all the counsel of God. 28 Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood. 29 For I know this, that after my departing shall grievous wolves enter in among you, not sparing the flock. 30 Also of your own selves shall men arise, speaking perverse things, to draw away disciples after them. 31 Therefore watch, and remember, that by the space of three years I ceased not to warn every one night and day with tears. 32 And now, brethren, I commend you to God, and to the word of his grace, which is able to build you up, and to give you an inheritance among all them which are sanctified.
PAULS ADMONITION ???
TAKE HEED TO YOURSELVES..
grievous wolves are coming , not sparing the flock
INDEED
th Rules,
I have never been a member of BBC, however I have been active in LWF, and loved Adrian Rogers, like a lot of the Memphis community did. I can speak for a great number of folks outside BBC that have felt the loss of this great man.
I don't know when the CGM hit full tilt, but I don't think because a church studied PDL or 40 Days of Community, it meant it was willing to change it's complete structure to Rick Warren's model. I can't imagine Pastor Rogers telling a member, "If you don't like it here anymore leave" and being dismissive of someone's concerns. Or, following a plan set up by a man instead of seeking God's will for the church God entrusted to his care. Based on the tapes I've listened to, Dr. Rogers didn't see writing sermons and the study of God's word to prepare them as "wasting precious time"- that was his precious time.
I think I'm going to jump in on this discussion:
Truth rules, you said that Dr. Rogers had BBC read and study The Purpose Driven Life. What if Dr. Rogers was wrong for doing that? Have you not ever made a decision that you thought was sound later to discover it was wrong? I'm not saying Dr. Rogers was wrong, I'm just asking you to consider the possibility. Dr. Rogers passed the mantle to Steve Gaines; what if Dr. Rogers was wrong in doing that? This thought has bothered me for a long time - lots of folks have put their allegience behind Steve Gaines (at all costs) because Dr. Rogers said Gaines was God's man. I'm just asking folks to consider the possibility that Dr. Rogers was wrong. We'll never really know now, but it's worth considering, don't you think?
karen
Don Said:
10 If there come any unto you, and bring not this doctrine, receive him not into your house, neither bid him God speed: 11 For he that biddeth him God speed is partaker of his evil deeds.
So..
Even greeting one who does not abide in the "doctrine of Christ "
makes one a partaker of his "evil deeds".
WhoooooWhat a deep thought to ponder......Thanks Don
Truth Rules said,
Jesus didn't teach in the church buildings of his day. He went out to the people at their place and postion in live. When did we get so proud that we cannot find the means to take Christ to the world. I would rather have a church that is friendly to sinners that one that limits the Gospel only to the saved.
Please don't think because I have a problem (and I will admit I am not very objective about PDC movement based on my experience) with the PDL methods of growing your church, or I am for a church only preaching to the saved, and never going out in the world to help spread the gospel. I have been on several mission trips with GBC and am going again to the DR in May. We have a commission to reach out to all people, sharing the saving grace and forgiveness that is offered to all sinners. But, we as a church are also obligated to reveal all of God's word, even the parts that are politically un-correct and make us un-popular with the world. To truly grow as a believer and receive all the blessings of a relationship with God, you need to make precious all of God's Word, not just the part that appeals to the lost.
Truth Rules said,
As Dr. Rogers would say when Bellevue was criticized about our numbers, "growth is the results of a healthy church and we shouldn't get sick just to make others happy".
I meant to comment on this too. Growth is one of the results of a healthy church. All churches want more people to receive Christ and encourage them to be part of their fellowship. But what about a church in say a working poor neighborhood, that doesn’t have the financial resources to reach much beyond their community, but their pastor truly disciples his people to grow in Christ and share the Word with those they come in contact with. His church may not get big numbers, or build big buildings, but that wouldn’t mean it’s not healthy.
To only measure God’s work by growth is not right, IMHO.
Karen, I don't easily accept that Dr. Rogers would have been wrong. First because I didn't find any personal issues or concerns as we went through PDL. Secondly I have years of trust built from observing Dr. Rogers. Unlike Bro. Steve with whom I haven't had years to build any trust, I saw the integrity and walk of Dr. Rogers. I am sure that Dr. Rogers was not perfect. He often spoke to those who found fault with Bellevue by admonishing them with the words, "if you want to find fault look at me". He knew, he like us, all to be sinners. But I grew in my faith under Dr. Rogers and cannot recall anytime that I felt he was not preaching God's Word as it should be taught.
Amy, my response would be like that of our pastor Dr. Rogers. Bellevue has been given great blessings by God and we are expected to give back as we've been given. Bellevue gives 23% to missions or about $5+ million dollars. That is a hugh number as a percentage when compared to many church budgets. I think that the members of Bellevue have always felt that our church was blessed and through that blessing we were to be more so a blessing to our community. By the way there are more decisions made for Christ through the ministries of Bellevue outside our building on Appling than within our building. That is what taking it to the world is all about.
truth rules,
I agree with you - it's hard to swallow that such a man of God as Dr. Rogers was could be wrong. But let's remember PDL is not the word of God; it's the missives of Rick Warren. So that's the part I'm talking about - could Dr. Rogers have been wrong in his support of Rick Warren?
karen
At the time we were about to go through PDL I had a discussion with the staff member responsible for Median adults (Webb Williams I think). I expressed concerne about participating in a popular movement as it made room for much emotion and little about knowing God deeply. The minister assured me that PDL was ok, but that Dr, Rogers had reservations about it and that he had to be convinced that the study would be beneficial to Bellevue. Dr Rogers did not launch the drive to study PDL, he merely gave his approval while stsing that the results would be up to God and that we would see where HE led us.
With this said, I would like to say that I feel that all of the discussion regarding the PDL and PDC poison is in and of itself pointless and a waist of our time. The problem with Bellevue is not from without but from within. We have lost our focus both here on the blog and generally within our church.
What we lack both individually and as a body is an absolute surrender to the Father. We have no depth of worship because we have no depth of Fellowship with Christ. We seek after an emotion driven worship service because we are not willing to give our whole intellect to studying our God (2Ti 2:15).
When we were praying for GBC and looking for a new pastor, I challenged my BFC to make sure we would not wake up one day and find ourselves a mile wide and 2 inches deep. Sadly the warning came too late.
aslansown said...
At the time we were about to go through PDL I had a discussion with the staff member responsible for Median adults (Webb Williams I think). I expressed concerne about participating in a popular movement as it made room for much emotion and little about knowing God deeply. The minister assured me that PDL was ok, but that Dr, Rogers had reservations about it and that he had to be convinced that the study would be beneficial to Bellevue. Dr Rogers did not launch the drive to study PDL, he merely gave his approval while stsing that the results would be up to God and that we would see where HE led us.
You are 100% correct! Wasn't Dr. Rogers still on leave from his triple bypass when PDL got "launched" at BBC?
karen
asiansown said :
Dr Rogers did not launch the drive to study PDL, he merely gave his approval while stsing that the results would be up to God and that we would see where HE led us.
It would appear that the " RESULTS " are in.
Karen,
I am not sure of the timeline, but I know that Dr. Rogers was at first very resistant to PDL and that some time did pass before he gave his approval. Bringing PDL to Bellevue was not Dr. Rogers idea, but that of the staff. It was thought at the time that Bellevue was in need of a revival of depth of belief. It was hoped that the PDL would light the fire of a study and desire to deepen our walk with Christ.
truth rules said
You must go back and read my post to determine who injected the conspiracy factor. It was piglet not I. But you my friend have now done what you've accused me of doing.
Piglet says:
If you do not believe there is a conspiracy of Satan in this world then you need to read your Bible.
This is not isolated - I could not care less if Gaines has read PDL or PDC. Go to Pastors.com and you see his same attitude refected in the posts of "pastors" all over America.
Satan is behind the one-world church and Rick Warren may only be one person he is using to bring this about - PEACE plan, unity without truth. Get a grip.
Look at what happened at GBC with Steve's buddy Sam Shaw.
Do I care that Mark Dougherty brought in PDL under Dr. Rogers watch? No. I am looking at where Warren is headed and where our church is headed.
It's pretty clear.
Don,
I would not blame PDL for a lack of depth at Bellevue, but rather an unwillingness of God's people to participate in His life. Since you are not a member of Bellevue, your view of the outcome may be one sided.
Remember, each of us is responsible to The Father for our own spiritual growth.
offline
Truth Rules said:
Amy, my response would be like that of our pastor Dr. Rogers. Bellevue has been given great blessings by God and we are expected to give back as we've been given.
I don't understand what you are responding to. Bellevue has been very blessed financially and I don't think anyone has said they haven't given back, or been poor stewards of God's money. (not including very recent events)
My point was (if this indeed was the point you were commenting on) that because a church isn't blessed with the resources, or growth like BBC doesn't mean it's not healthy.
Piglet,
I responded to your post about GBC last night this am. Have you read it?
Piglet said:
Look at what happened at GBC with Steve's buddy Sam Shaw
Textbook PDC study of transitioning your church. Pastor Sam's proposed bylaws were a big wake up call. And if it wasn't for our current bylaws we wouldn't have had any protction.
Karen,
You are correct. Mark Dougharty was "in charge" when the PDL study was launched. He was also "in charge" after Dr Rogers retired and he brought in the famous circle of wealthy men to advise him. Mark Dougharty was also promoting Steve Gaines' book before the man ever arrived, and Harry Smith and Steve Gaines go way back - farther than most would ever realize.
There is a lot to be said about the undercurrents at BBC, Dr Rogers was out of the loop for a very long time while Mark Dougharty was working back room deals with the very same men who are now in leadership positions. But yet, the majority of the congregation is ignorant of most of this and could care less as long as they can "soak and sour" (as Dr Rogers used to put it;) and not let the facts get in their way.
CHURCH ' HEALTH " AWARD
FROM RICK WARREN ? OR JESUS CHRIST ?
EXCELLENT BIBLICAL INSIGHT INTO THE WHOLE " HEALTHY CHURCH " MANIPULATION
http://cicministry.org/commentary/issue86.htm
Karen,
No Dr. Rogers was not on leave. Dr. Rogers preached a series of sermons on PDL during the time we were studying this in BFC. But I agree with aslanson when he stated "With this said, I would like to say that I feel that all of the discussion regarding the PDL and PDC poison is in and of itself pointless and a waist of our time. " Or as I would say a "waste" of time. But I shouldn't criticize because I have made numerous grammar mistakes as well.
Hmmm
Let me see if I get this right.
40,00 plus pastors are all onboard with the Rick Warren agenda and the Rick Warren Global peace plan.
Rick Warren is thankful there is a stealth movement that is rapidly changing thousands of churches worldwide...
The internet is throbbing with millions of articles and stories detailing the misuse of Scripture and misapplication of Scripture by Rick Warren, along with untld stories of heartache and misery inflicted on the Body of Christ by implimenting this " new program ".
Bellevue has a staff member who is still in a leadership role who facilitated this programs entry into Bellevue.
and discussion of this is a waste of time.
Ok..
I think I get it now.
pass the kool aid
mom4, you are so wrong in your assumptions that I wouldn't know where to begin. If you think that Mark Dougharty could lead us in anything you've over estimated his impact. The same lay leadership we have today is the same lay leadership we had under Dr. Rogers. To say differently exposes one to their lack of knowledge of the inner workings of Bellevue. And to make the statements you have with your understanding makes it very suspect to being near the truth. And no Mark Dougharty was not in charge during the PDL launch. That is just flat and out a false belief. Call Webb Williams at the church if you want clarification. When I have a doubt I call and ask those whose names are mentioned to clarify. If I recall you were the one so adamant that Donna Gaines got $30,000. And that was false as well. Your statement was "The disbursment DID occur, so if someone tells you it didn't, they are telling a falsehood - again." And now we know that this didn't happen. Those who attended the budget meeting heard the question asked and answered. You were wrong then and now.
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