Tuesday, March 20, 2007

March 25th Meeting

Be sure to tune in! Mrs. Joyce Rogers is scheduled to be on Dick Bott's "The Complete Story" broadcast on WCRV radio AM640 today at 3:00 p.m.


Special Ministry Celebration Service and

Annual Congregational Meeting

March 25, 10:00 a.m.

A Ministry Celebration service will be held Sunday, March 25, at 10:00 a.m. This will be a special time as we look back and celebrate the ministry victories of 2006. There will be no Bible Fellowship, and overflow seating will be provided in the Fellowship Hall.

This Worship Service will be followed by the Annual Congregational Meeting. Items to be discussed are:


  • Nominations from the Committee on Committees for members to serve on all church committees

  • Presentation of the church’s proposed budget for fiscal year 2007-08 from the Budget Planning Committee in conjunction with the Finance Committee

  • Any other business properly the subject of consideration by the congregation may be brought forward at this meeting

Even if you're attending a different church but haven't moved your membership, please plan to be there this Sunday, at least for the first annual meeting portion.

792 comments:

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DON said...

Ode to the Watchers on the Wall...

They are the watchers. Tirelessly they stand on the wall and watch ... sometimes blowing their horns to warn of danger and creeping dragons. The people shake their heads and just walk away... "Don't believe everything you see, foolish watcher!" they say, even though the watchers can see what they can't. Foolishly, the people naively open the gates and welcome the dragons in now. Proudly they walk by flaunting their green guests. "See, this is a good guest," they sneer, oblivious to the puff of smoke wafting behind them. The watchers know that it's only because of their swords that the dragons don't devour the whole village at once. Watchers are never well liked ... they don't apply for this job, but the King grants such a position only to those He chooses. They must accept the honor ... it's not that they are worthy, but they have each been rescued from the mouth of a fierce dragon ... so they know the stench and recognize the sounds of a dragon ... and now they watch for them ... because they owe their lives to the King and his family.

AS EXCERPTED FROM lIGHTHOUSETRAILSRESEARCH.COM

DON said...

THE TERRIFYING DUTY OF WATCHMEN

Ezekiel 33: 1-9

1 Again the word of the LORD came unto me, saying, 2 Son of man, speak to the children of thy people, and say unto them, When I bring the sword upon a land, if the people of the land take a man of their coasts, and set him for their watchman: 3 If when he seeth the sword come upon the land, he blow the trumpet, and warn the people; 4 Then whosoever F159 heareth the sound of the trumpet, and taketh not warning; if the sword come, and take him away, his blood shall be upon his own head. 5 He heard the sound of the trumpet, and took not warning; his blood shall be upon him. But he that taketh warning shall deliver his soul. 6 But if the watchman see the sword come, and blow not the trumpet, and the people be not warned; if the sword come, and take any person from among them, he is taken away in his iniquity; but his blood will I require at the watchman's hand. 7 So thou, O son of man, I have set thee a watchman unto the house of Israel; therefore thou shalt hear the word at my mouth, and warn them from me. 8 When I say unto the wicked, O wicked man, thou shalt surely die; if thou dost not speak to warn the wicked from his way, that wicked man shall die in his iniquity; but his blood will I require at thine hand. 9 Nevertheless, if thou warn the wicked of his way to turn from it; if he do not turn from his way, he shall die in his iniquity; but thou hast delivered thy soul.

truth rules said...

NBBCOF, Please be aware that the main auditorium will be overflowing with excess capacity going to the fellowship hall. If one was to come later then they would be unable to easily make a motion, second a motion, or take part of the discussion from the fellowship hall. If you will recall David announced at the Budget meeting last Sunday that the preaching would only be about 15 minutes. I am sure that those who oppose Bro. Steve could manage to handle that limited time. Additionally if all those who are in opposition sit in the fellowship hall their presence will not be known to those of us in the main auditorium.

New BBC Open Forum said...

truth rules,

Do you really care? It seems to me they'd rather anyone not in lockstep with Steve Gaines and the administration be confined to the fellowship hall -- or better yet the parking lot.

"Additionally if all those who are in opposition sit in the fellowship hall their presence will not be known to those of us in the main auditorium."

That sentence speaks volumes.

Support Brother Steve said...

Come on Bellevue. You can do better than this. We've got a huge majority standing with us. Sign your name and make a public statement in support of our pastor.

Please show your love and support for Brother Steve today!

Support Brother Steve said...

Thank you to the brave men who have already signed. Please pass word along to everyone you know. We can have thousands of signatures by Sunday the 25th. Let's show our support.

Deacons and staff members, now is the time to let everyone see you publicly support our pastor.

Regardless of how you feel, I love you all.

imaresistor said...

NBBCOF,

Truth rules said...
"Additionally if all those who are in opposition sit in the fellowship hall their presence will not be known to those of us in the main auditorium."

NBBCOF remarked, "That sentence speaks volumes."

Does the word 'predetermined' come to mind?

New BBC Open Forum said...

ima,

I was thinking of "us" and "them" and "out of sight, out of mind." But "predetermined" is good, too.

Come, LORD Jesus! said...

WatchingHIStory,

There is a post we addressed to you at the end of the last thread. Hope you find time to read it.

WatchingHISstory said...

We need watchers who can descern self-determination and understand the path of destruction it leaves.
Buglers have to give a distinct sound if we are to do battle. The message is in a foreign tongue and the Holy Spirit must give the understanding and he seeks out the humble to make his truths known. Otherwise when the tongue is given the hearers will not nor cannot understand. The Holy Spirit alone gives the understanding. Diligent study of the text and its context will not suffice but the understanding must be given to the hearer.

Amy said...

Truth Rules,

The only references to the RW quote we were discussing, were two that stated pretty much what I did, and the context was not included. I did find out it is on page 75 - if anyone with a PDL book would like to read that page and share thoughts. You can download for free the first seven chapters of PDL from pastors.com, but it only goes up to pg 60 something.

Anybody?

New BBC Open Forum said...

Interesting article.

WatchingHISstory said...

come,LordJesus!

Thanks for you words and your admonition however I must obey God and not man. I believe you understand. Let's all pray for one another.

Come, LORD Jesus! said...

New BBC Open Forum,

Our dear Administrator,

You are surely one for understatements when you called the article you gave us "interesting". It is AWESOME and a "MUST READ" for every saint in The Body of Christ Jesus.

THANKS!!!

Good night for now. Heading to bed. Have a gloriously delightful and joy-filled Jesus Day!!!

Amy said...

Does anyone know how they plan to hold a true business meeting with overflow in the Fellowship Hall? How will people be recognized to speak?

Also, usually members only can be in attendence. How will they know who's a member and who's not?
They may have ballot voting for the committees, but how are they going to hear the priviledged motions from folks in the fellowship hall.

Will there be childcare provided after the service for the meeting? Little ones are going to be bored and hungry if not and that could be distracting. If it's the first membership business meeting in a long time, and true RR's of Order are implace it can be verrrry long. Bring snacks!

Karen said...

Amy,

All I've heard is that Robert's Rules of Order will be used. How they plan to address people in the Fellowship Hall - I can't even fathom a guess. I'm getting there early and wearing comfy shoes. We've waited so long for a business meeting, I ain't leaving until everyone is heard. If that means packing a lunch, so be it!

karen

imaresistor said...

karen,

You might need to go Saturday night, take a pillow and blanket with you and camp out in one of the seats in the sanctuary.

You people may well have a stampede Sunday.

I am praying for all of you and will be with you in spirit.

Ima

imaresistor said...

"I cannot agree with those who say that they have 'new truth' to teach.
The two words seem to me to contradict each other;
that which is new is not true. It is the old that is true,
for truth is as old as God himself" -- Charles Spurgeon

WatchingHISstory said...

Self-reliance caused Jacob to walk with a limp and say "few and evil have been the days of my life". It caused Moses the loss of the promise land. David's one big dream to build God a Sanctuary was lost. Self-reliance is not nitpicking words that God winks at as though cute.

I sought God for the understanding of this and I found myself face down begging God to take my life because of the awfulness of God's vengeance. What I found was the truth and it was greater than I could stand.

This pursuit has been going for 5 or 6 years.
When the Bible says it is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God, it is not an understatement.

Amy said...

I called BBC and was told there would only be child care for 0-3 years old during the BSF time 10-11:30. At 11:30, parents will be asked to pick up their children so the workers can be released to go to the business meeting.

Karen said...

If I'm listening online to Bott Radio Network, am I gonna hear Mrs. Rogers? There's a lady on right now talking about Family Management - is this right? Thanks!

karen

Karen said...

IMA,

Thanks for the suggestion - I think the most extreme thing I'm going to do is ride with my parents and husband in 1 car.

Amy,

It's amazing to me that you have to call BBC to get that information when this info could have been sent to its membership on the big postcard we all received about the Celebration Service. I'm glad I don't have kids to have to deal with the hassle of having to go get them during a business meeting.

What chaos will that cause to have parents leave the service then have to come back with their kids? Amazingly short sighted I think.

karen

MOM4 said...

karen said...
"What chaos will that cause to have parents leave the service then have to come back with their kids? Amazingly short sighted I think"

Or amazingly well planned...

Karen said...

mom4,

Can I get WCRV online? Help!

karen

imaresistor said...

Ahhhh....just listened to Mrs. Joyce Rogers on the Dick Bott program. She is a lady in every way possible! I enjoyed hearing her sing so very much.

My phone rang just as they were telling how to order her CD. Can anybody help me out here. I'd like to have it.

You people at Bellevue were so very fortunate to have this sweet lady all those years. You were very blessed, indeed!

Ima

imaresistor said...

NBBCOF,

Thank you for giving the information to be able to get this program to us on the blog. Being outside of Memphis, I would have never have known this was available to us today. I truly did enjoy the program.

God bless you Mrs. Rogers...

Support Brother Steve said...

We are a 30,000 member mega-church. We can do better than the handful of signatures we've got now.

Please show your love and support for Brother Steve today!

Advice from Lucy! said...

imaresistor said...
Ahhhh....just listened to Mrs. Joyce Rogers on the Dick Bott program. I enjoyed hearing her sing so very much.

CD?

You can go on-line at www.LWF.org
The name is "Walking With Jesus".

Lucy
5 Cents please!

New BBC Open Forum said...

It's called "Walking with Jesus," and she said you could order it from LWF, but I can't find it on their site. You may have to call them, 901-382-7900 or 800-274-5683.

imaresistor said...

Advice from Lucy!,

Five cents is a great price for a CD...thanks!

NBBCOF,

Thanks...I'll get it ordered.

Ima

Karen said...

I can't believe you people would start a petition about Steve Gaines! Why can't you just be quiet and support Steve Gaines in silence? Don't you know you're being divisive? Why don't you get off this blog and focus on Jesus instead of focusing on a man?

Please know the above comments were cut and pasted here from emails I personally received from BBC members for signing the petition against the Ordination of David Coombs. All I've done here is substitute "Steve Gaines" for "David Coombs".

I could have cut and pasted the email senders names, but that wouldn't serve any purpose now woud it? Why is the "Steve Gaines" petition okey dokey and when I voiced my opinion about how I felt about the timing of the ordination of David Coombs, I'm thrown to the wolves by members of BBC - people I've known or sat next to in church, or seen in the halls? WHY?
karen

Piglet said...

Karen,

Clever and thought provoking.

bill loney said...

to the support petition managers:

I am greatly offended that you have removed me from your petition. It seems you have no room for Bill Loney. I was certain that you were Bill Loney 'people'. You will rue the day when you cast aside Bill Loney.

As my aunt, Ivanna Herl, used to say, "Bill Loney, don't worry that you have no friends, because your family will one day remove the restraining orders". O, the comfort that only a family can give.

Anyway, I'm going to go stand outside the preacher's house and clap. I'll show my support one way or another, that is until 5-0 shows up.

William T. Loney

concernedSBCer said...

Karen, I guess it's all in what side of the "itty bitty" fence you are on.

Perception is truth to many. However, we know the Truth is the scripture. To follow scripture, one might have to be humble, repent, change, allot time for study and prayer, rethink priorities....wouldn't it just be easy to be comfy and stay where they are?

Trollcakes said...

This is worth repeating here. So often the truthseekers are made to defend themselves against charges of hatred or worse, when doing so is wasted breath; a simple digestion of what little to which they've grudgingly admitted is a legitate response to the Padre and his backup dancers' mess.

The burden, actually is upon the sycophants--tell us why, oh tell us why. Why do some truly destructive behaviors from some seemingly get the kidd gloves, but those that question the same are treated like heretics and have the Book thrown at them by the very same empty suits?

You have unfinished trust and accountability issues, Bellevue, and your bidness will never be finished if you conflate, coven-like, to fini your bidness. It will forever be your albatross, your final legacy that cannot be lived down by a million people people making a profession of faith.

The shoe is on the other foot. I know you wish to feel like everything is ok again and want to move on, but you cannot move on if you won't take an honest look at the problem. You'll just have to revisit it over and over.

This is a repeat:

Can you articulate the gravity of the leadership's wrongdoing (or even, the lack thereof)and credibly argue that they have, indeed, been made accountable commensurate to their failure(if you choose to argue, that yes, letting the pedophile walk was pretty irresponsible); that they deserve, not just your trust and respect as leaders, but all members?

I get the "they cannot abide a difference of opinion" jag, I just haven't heard you apologists plainly state:

"Yes, Pastor Gaines, although he really screwed up, has my renewed and absolute trust, plus everyone should follow suit, because of X"

Or, "Dear Leader and other dear leaders have been accountable for their irresponsible leadership by X."*

Or, "What they didn't do for 6 months wasn't so bad given X."

*No Kim Jong Il reference is intended.

Trollcakes said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Trollcakes said...

Yeah, they threw mine off too, but you notice they kept the same tab on the votes.

HA!

solomon said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
WatchingHISstory said...

If you are going to resist the emergent church you must trace it back to Dallas and Fuller Theological Seminaries. Back thru American Fundamentalism and Darby-Scofield Dispensationalism.

Warren's ideas are not new they are carried over from Fuller's Donald McGavran, C Peter Wagner and John Wimber.

Rick Warren hasn't started anything new with Purpose Driven material he is just magnifying what has been there for years in most large fundamental churches.

All the terminology you are hearing about started early with McGravan and has been a terrible influence on the preaching you have been hearing for years.

You started hearing about resistance to it when Warren employed large advertising firms to market his material. Probally one of the most successful christian marketing efforts ever. The reason he was so successful is because the preaching you have been sleeping thru has laid the groundwork.

Come, LORD Jesus! said...

"SupportBrotherSteve" is but an attempt at distracting all of us from the matter at hand...March 25th's scheduled meeting at Bellevue.

Let us simply ignore satan's tactics.

They (or "SHE") finds pleasure in our attentions.

bill loney said...

Solemon said,

"Bill Loney,

Are you by any chance related to Hubert Jazz? (Hugh for short.)

You're acting like it."

Solemon,
Your wisdom is exceeded only by your inability to be smart. As my third cousin, Dean Gulberry, would say, "If you aint got nothing nice to say, then say something mean but in a nice way".

Solemon, when the light begins to fade in your wit, then all you have left is a dim wit.

The preacher is going to be hearing about your rudeness, and after remaining silent for a few months, and then after checking with the lawyers, and after consulting with Mr. Coombs, he still probably wont do anything, but needless to say, you wont be tangling with Bill Loney again, because by then you probably will have forgotten. I think you get the point.

Sorry I had to get tough with you, but in time, you may mend. Just remember, when you grab the bull by the horns, the tough get going.

Call me, we'll do lunch!

William T. Loney M.D.

solomon said...

I thought I had grabbed 'bill' by the horns.

bill loney said...

Solomon,

Apology accepted.

William T. Loney M.D.

Koragg said...

I've noticed that most of the names on the "petition" supporting Gaines all have comments criticizing Gaines and his band of goons. That petition's about as effective as a squirt gun on a forest fire.

BTW, and this is completely off topic but, praise God tonight. I just shot my first ever 300 game at the bowling alley!!!!!!!!!!

bill loney said...

Koragg,

That's not criticism, it's just tough love.

The pastor loves that kind of stuff...his ineptitude and lack of discernment and action is just to keep us on our toes.

Check his track record...he's been doing this for a long time...just think of how many churches he has sharpened with his poor pastoring skills.

Things will probably die down after our fiesta on Sunday...but dont fear, he'll get us back on track with some blatant show of arrogance or some major ministerial blunder. And support for him will be larger than ever. Instead of standing O's, there'll be bowing O's.

And in another tidal wave of irony, he'll be the good guy, and everyone else will be gossipers.

What a guy!

William T. Loney M.D.

Come, LORD Jesus! said...

"Dr. Loney",

God Almighty has His ways of ending "track records".

bill loney said...

cmoe lrod jseus,

I argee wtih yuor cmmoent, and his tarck rcerod wlil porbbaly not lsat lnog, but on a lgihetr sdie,

Waht I fnid anmzaig is taht yuor bairn wlil atouamtccily usncarmble wrods taht you raed if the wrods taht you are raeindg hvae the fsirt and lsat lteter pordived. So eevn if a pseron cnat sepll vrey wlel, you wlil stlil be albe to raed it. Tihs is how I wirte all the tmie, utnil I hit sepllcehck. We are turly wndoerflluy mdae. Wlel, tmie to tkae my mdeincie. Hvae a good nghit eervynoe.

Wlliiam T. Leony

imaresistor said...

eda08karen...

About your post to me...no problem Don't give it a second thought. I know you are grounded and seem to understand the damage of the RW movement.

DON said...

Seeker sensitive Spring Creek Church from Wisconsin ...

hosts " RETRO " day...
and invites ELVIS impersinator on Sunday morning to sing " how Great Thou Art ...with choir accompanying..

Truly...

This is the falling away and apostasy .

URL is below ...COPY AND PASTE IT INTO YOUR BROWSER

http://www.springcreekonline.org/site/cpage.asp?sec_id=1992&cpage_id=8781&time=9:31:36%20AM

Elvis bit begins 5 minutes into video clip

WEEP AND MOURN...

The spirit of error is IN the Church

imaresistor said...

Don...

I just got through watching this heresy! You forgot to mention the man calling himself the pastor referring to his wife as the 'hot pastor's wife'!

All I can say is ... people need to wake up.

DON said...

2nd Corinthians 11; 11-15 says it all

For such are false apostles, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into the apostles of Christ. 14 And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light. 15 Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also be transformed as the ministers of righteousness; whose end shall be according to their works.

imaresistor said...

Don,

And this is EXACTLY where we are!

DON said...

I would like to re-name these churches..
Rather than Emergent Churches

They are Regurg-ant churches Gag

imaresistor said...

Don...

I do agree with them about one thing...and one thing only. And that is, I would like to see the word 'church' taken off what they are called. They are no longer churches...

DON said...

Oh...VICTORY in JESUS

My Saviour ...Forever

He sought me...

and bought me...

with His redeeming Blood


He loved me ere' I knew Him

and ALL MY LOVE is due Him

He plunged me to VICTORY

beneath the Cleansing flood.

Piglet said...

Okay, I've GOT to tell you about my nightmare, folks. And this is for real - not made up for a snicker.

Last night I dreamed that it was several years into the future at BBC and Jamie was leading the congregation. The song we were singing was "Da Doo Ron Ron".

Scared me to death! :)

Piglet said...

Well, now everybody is gone. :(

Guess I'll go to bed, too.

zzzzzz

Support Brother Cakes said...

Oh man, did I miss everybody--that's what I get for playing pool so late.

truth rules said...

"The Holy Spirit gives us the ability to understand scriptures. Why not go to scripture first?

Paul commended the Bereans for checking and testing everything he taught." wrote lin

Lin, just curious about that last comment. And where were they to check what Paul taught? He was teaching the Gentiles who didn't have the knowledge from the Jewish Scriptures (Old Testament), the New Testament wasn't published at this point plus Paul is credited with much of that. You inference is that Paul was saying test what I'm teaching against the Scriptures. I am not being argumentative but just curious.

allofgrace said...

truthrules,
How do you know they didn't have copies of the OT?...I think it can be inferred that they did...otherwise Paul would not have commended them for doing so and exhorting his hearers to do the same....I don't know the dates of all the writings of the NT, but it's possible one or more of the gospels had been written and could have been circulating..or for that matter an epistle or two.

WatchingHISstory said...

I should't have watched that silly video. Now I have an ear worm that will be with me all day, "My Redeemer Lives"

truth rules said...

AOG, that would be a difficult inference. The printing press wasn't invented at this point of time, that would be many, many years later. Everything was hand copied. Why would you assume that anyone other than Jewish people would have the Old Testament? That is a difficult assumption. I doubt that you have a copy of the Koran even though it's easily obtained in today's time. Again why would a Gentile possess a Jewish Bible? Most Jews received their knowledge of the Books of the Old Testament from their Rabbi. Not many Jews would even have had a copy of those books. The Gospel was spread by the early Christians by testimony. And that is still in my opinion the best way to share the Gospel. One's testimony of their own salvation can be more impactful than just giving another a pamphlet to read.

Amy said...

WHS Said,

I should't have watched that silly video. Now I have an ear worm that will be with me all day, "My Redeemer Lives"

I liked how they put the words on the screen so we could sing along at home!

WatchingHISstory said...

"I cannot agree with those who say that they have 'new truth' to teach.
The two words seem to me to contradict each other;
that which is new is not true. It is the old that is true,
for truth is as old as God himself" -- Charles Spurgeon

Could Charles Spurgeon have been refering to dispensationalism?
Just a thought.

WatchingHISstory said...

Oh well probally not. He was resisting unitarianism and socinianism however he would have recognized strains of each in dispensationalism.

ezekiel said...

truth rules said,

Lin, just curious about that last comment. And where were they to check what Paul taught? He was teaching the Gentiles who didn't have the knowledge from the Jewish Scriptures (Old Testament), the New Testament wasn't published at this point plus Paul is credited with much of that. You inference is that Paul was saying test what I'm teaching against the Scriptures. I am not being argumentative but just curious.

4:32 AM, March 22, 2007



Acts 17:10 And the brethren immediately sent away Paul and Silas by night unto Berea: who coming [thither] went into the synagogue of the Jews.

17:11 These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so.

Scripture is never wrong, only our ignorance of it misleads many. In the end, the WORD is the only reliable teacher of His truth.

WatchingHISstory said...

Scripture is never wrong, only our ignorance of it misleads many. In the end, the WORD is the only reliable teacher of His truth

The Holy Spirit is the only reliable teacher of the WORD.

Here I go nit-picking again but "itty-bitty" words are important.

concernedSBCer said...

I just watched the video. It isn't as overt as some services I've seen/been in. I thought the Elvis routine was over the top. However, looking at the surface, I *guess* it was okay. His words *sounded* right....it was just so...basic. Like he was talking to children. Did anyone else notice that? His voice had a sing-song quality that kind of lulled. The story about Mabel was good but he never really told how you could have a relationship like that...just said don't you want to be like Mabel. Well, I kind of thought about that....yes, I wish I could rest in Jesus' arms like Mabel but I want to be like JESUS.

I read 2 Thessalonians this am and several verses stand out:
2:15 Therefore brethern, stand fast and hold the traditions which you were taught, whether by word or our epistle.
3:13-15 But as for you brethern, do not grow weary in doing good. And if anyone does not obey our word in this epistle, note that person and do not keep company with him, that he may be ashamed. Yet do not count him as an enemy but admonish him as a friend.

"hold the traditions"....that's food for thought

and so is "admonish him as a friend".....it seems that has been tried and is continuing to be tried in the case of BBC

Just thinkin'

ezekiel said...

Proverbs 4:1 Hear, ye children, the instruction of a father, and attend to know understanding.

4:2 For I give you good doctrine, forsake ye not my law.

4:3 For I was my father's son, tender and only [beloved] in the sight of my mother.

4:4 He taught me also, and said unto me, Let thine heart retain my words: keep my commandments, and live.

4:5 Get wisdom, get understanding: forget [it] not; neither decline from the words of my mouth.

4:6 Forsake her not, and she shall preserve thee: love her, and she shall keep thee.

4:7 Wisdom [is] the principal thing; [therefore] get wisdom: and with all thy getting get understanding.

4:8 Exalt her, and she shall promote thee: she shall bring thee to honour, when thou dost embrace her.

4:9 She shall give to thine head an ornament of grace: a crown of glory shall she deliver to thee.

4:10 Hear, O my son, and receive my sayings; and the years of thy life shall be many.

4:11 I have taught thee in the way of wisdom; I have led thee in right paths.

4:12 When thou goest, thy steps shall not be straitened; and when thou runnest, thou shalt not stumble.

4:13 Take fast hold of instruction; let [her] not go: keep her; for she [is] thy life.

4:14 Enter not into the path of the wicked, and go not in the way of evil [men].

4:15 Avoid it, pass not by it, turn from it, and pass away.

4:16 For they sleep not, except they have done mischief; and their sleep is taken away, unless they cause [some] to fall.

4:17 For they eat the bread of wickedness, and drink the wine of violence.

4:18 But the path of the just [is] as the shining light, that shineth more and more unto the perfect day.

4:19 The way of the wicked [is] as darkness: they know not at what they stumble.

4:20 My son, attend to my words; incline thine ear unto my sayings.

4:21 Let them not depart from thine eyes; keep them in the midst of thine heart.

4:22 For they [are] life unto those that find them, and health to all their flesh.

4:23 Keep thy heart with all diligence; for out of it [are] the issues of life.

4:24 Put away from thee a froward mouth, and perverse lips put far from thee.

4:25 Let thine eyes look right on, and let thine eyelids look straight before thee.

4:26 Ponder the path of thy feet, and let all thy ways be established.

4:27 Turn not to the right hand nor to the left: remove thy foot from evil.

ezekiel said...

Proverbs 8:1 Doth not wisdom cry? and understanding put forth her voice?

8:2 She standeth in the top of high places, by the way in the places of the paths.

8:3 She crieth at the gates, at the entry of the city, at the coming in at the doors.

8:4 Unto you, O men, I call; and my voice [is] to the sons of man.

8:5 O ye simple, understand wisdom: and, ye fools, be ye of an understanding heart.

8:6 Hear; for I will speak of excellent things; and the opening of my lips [shall be] right things.

8:7 For my mouth shall speak truth; and wickedness [is] an abomination to my lips.

8:8 All the words of my mouth [are] in righteousness; [there is] nothing froward or perverse in them.

8:9 They [are] all plain to him that understandeth, and right to them that find knowledge.

8:10 Receive my instruction, and not silver; and knowledge rather than choice gold.

8:11 For wisdom [is] better than rubies; and all the things that may be desired are not to be compared to it.

8:12 I wisdom dwell with prudence, and find out knowledge of witty inventions.

8:13 The fear of the LORD [is] to hate evil: pride, and arrogancy, and the evil way, and the froward mouth, do I hate.

8:14 Counsel [is] mine, and sound wisdom: I [am] understanding; I have strength.

8:15 By me kings reign, and princes decree justice.

8:16 By me princes rule, and nobles, [even] all the judges of the earth.

8:17 I love them that love me; and those that seek me early shall find me.

8:18 Riches and honour [are] with me; [yea], durable riches and righteousness.

8:19 My fruit [is] better than gold, yea, than fine gold; and my revenue than choice silver.

8:20 I lead in the way of righteousness, in the midst of the paths of judgment:

8:21 That I may cause those that love me to inherit substance; and I will fill their treasures.

8:22 The LORD possessed me in the beginning of his way, before his works of old.

8:23 I was set up from everlasting, from the beginning, or ever the earth was.

8:24 When [there were] no depths, I was brought forth; when [there were] no fountains abounding with water.

8:25 Before the mountains were settled, before the hills was I brought forth:

8:26 While as yet he had not made the earth, nor the fields, nor the highest part of the dust of the world.

8:27 When he prepared the heavens, I [was] there: when he set a compass upon the face of the depth:

8:28 When he established the clouds above: when he strengthened the fountains of the deep:

8:29 When he gave to the sea his decree, that the waters should not pass his commandment: when he appointed the foundations of the earth:

8:30 Then I was by him, [as] one brought up [with him]: and I was daily [his] delight, rejoicing always before him;

8:31 Rejoicing in the habitable part of his earth; and my delights [were] with the sons of men.

8:32 Now therefore hearken unto me, O ye children: for blessed [are they that] keep my ways.

8:33 Hear instruction, and be wise, and refuse it not.

8:34 Blessed [is] the man that heareth me, watching daily at my gates, waiting at the posts of my doors.

8:35 For whoso findeth me findeth life, and shall obtain favour of the LORD.

8:36 But he that sinneth against me wrongeth his own soul: all they that hate me love death.

solomon said...

truth rules said,

Lin, just curious about that last comment. And where were they to check what Paul taught? He was teaching the Gentiles who didn't have the knowledge from the Jewish Scriptures (Old Testament), the New Testament wasn't published at this point plus Paul is credited with much of that. You inference is that Paul was saying test what I'm teaching against the Scriptures. I am not being argumentative but just curious.

4:32 AM, March 22, 2007


After the time of Alexander the Great, Greek was spoken in most of the world. The Jewish scriptures were translated into Greek around 300 B.C. The Greek language version of the OT (called the 'Septuagint') was widely available by this time. Only the wealthy would have had their own copies, but the Jews in Berea were likely Hellenists, and their copies of the scripture would have been in Greek.

solomon said...

BTW, I think the key to understanding Acts 17 is to understand that the Bereans first listened to what Paul was saying. They didn't condemn him beforehand. They had a teachable spirit about them.

"Now the Bereans were of more noble character than the Thessalonians, for they received the message with great eagerness and examined the Scriptures every day to see if what Paul said was true. Many of the Jews believed, as did also a number of prominent Greek women and many Greek men."

allofgrace said...

truthrules,
Then the question must be answered...Was Paul instructing something that couldn't be done by his hearers?...that question raises another...Are the scriptures then in error?...Was Paul?...opens up quite a few cans of worms.

allofgrace said...

Could Charles Spurgeon have been refering to dispensationalism?
Just a thought.


No..I think he was just referring to the fact that there is no new revelation...only that which has already been given.

WatchingHISstory said...

Could dispensationalism be a new revelation?

Just a question

charlie fox said...

Robert's Rules of Order REQUIRES ALL members to be in the SAME room during a business meeting. There is an exception, but that exception MUST be addressed in the BYLAWS before it can be exercised. This exception is NOT addressed in the BBC Bylaws, therefore to conduct a business meeting with OVERFLOW SEATING in the Fellowship Hall is in DIRECT VIOLATION of RRoO.

allofgrace said...

Dispensationlism is a view of Biblical revelation...not revelation itself.

solomon said...

Charlie,

What are the alternatives?

MOM4 said...

Charlie,
Having such a lengthy meeting will also exclude those with handicaps that will not allow them to sit or stand for so very long. Having a permanent handicap, I cannot sit or stand more than 15-20 minutes, therefore I usually have to sit in the back where I can get up and leave when I have to. There is no way I can sit up front to be heard and remain seated the entire time without having assistance which will be not only a distraction to others, but an embarassment to me. This is not to mention the children that will be present to disrupt the meeting. That time of day is difficult for any child and the parents will have to leave or find somewhere for their children if they do not want to disrupt the meeting. That is not the parent's fault or their children's fault. It is just the nature of a child and the leadership is using it to their advantage.
I honestly believe the leadership will drag out the "celebration" just to put folks like me in a position NOT to be able to attend the full meeting. I think they must be trying to wear us out to shut us up.
Does RRoO have anything to say about abuse?

Lindon said...

Ez: Thanks for posting the scripture

Truth,

The Bereans Paul was referring to were Jews. And they were considered of Noble Character because they searched the scriptures to check Paul's teaching.

The Apostles taught from the OT all the time. (Even to the Greeks and Romans)

The OT has tons of references to Jesus..even in the Psalms. The OT is really about the coming of Messiah

There is more to it, such as what the Jews were expecting in the Messiah, etc. But I hope this helps.

solomon said...

I'm going to approach the meeting with an open mind. I've talked to enough members to believe that most of them won't stick around for it. I'm confident there will be enough room in the sanctuary.

If not, this is one thing we'll have to make an allowance for. It's not physically possible to fit 30000 people into a room that holds 7000.

I'm sure that Rick Warren and the architects who drew up the plans didn't conspire together back in the 80s to build an auditorium that would further their cause, so I'm not going to condemn the meeting before I see it.

Come now, let us reason together!

charlie fox said...

solomon said...
Charlie,

What are the alternatives?

REPLY:

It is in accordance with RRoO to have members in a seperate room, as long as those members can see and hear ALL that is taking place in the main room. They also MUST have a means of communicating directly with the main room. This exception is allowed ONLY if it is addressed in the BYLAWS.

charlie fox said...

solomon said...
I'm going to approach the meeting with an open mind. I've talked to enough members to believe that most of them won't stick around for it. I'm confident there will be enough room in the sanctuary.

If not, this is one thing we'll have to make an allowance for. It's not physically possible to fit 30000 people into a room that holds 7000.

REPLY:

You CANNOT make allowances for or excepts to RRoO and be in strict compliance of RRoO. You CANNOT pick and choose what parts of RRoO you wish to adhere to, and which parts you will make allowances for. It's ALL or NOTHING.

Amy said...

Solomon,
I think your option is to wait and see if everybody doesn't fit in one room. If they do, then proceed with your meeting.
However, if there is need for overflow, you have the right to stand and say,(you do not need to be recognized by the chair)
"Mr. Chairman, I rise to a Parliamentary Inquiry."

Chair: State your Question

You: My name is Solomon. According to RR of O, 10th addition, Page___ Line____ ALL members are required to be in the SAME room during a business meeting. There is an exception, but that exception MUST be addressed in the BYLAWS before it can be exercised. This exception is NOT addressed in the BBC Bylaws, therefore to conduct a business meeting with OVERFLOW SEATING in the Fellowship Hall.

I quess their parlimentarian would address the issue and tell the chair how to procede.
I found my RRoO and I will look this up- if Charlie doesn't answer soon.
It's been my experience the Parlimentarian is up on the stage as a resource for the chair to inquire how to procede if he's not sure. Members have the Right to
a Parlimentary Question, however, the Parlimentarian will not step in if the meeting isn't going according to rules. So learn your Robert's Rules! I'll find the site I posted on the blog a couple of days that goes over the basics.

Amy said...

Charlie,
your post must of gone up while I during my mutiple attempts to copy the squigly letters! Do you have the page and line for the meeting assembly. Also, Solomon it's to everyone's advantage to be together, how else can you be recognized if you have a privilideged motion?

Amy said...

Robert’s Rules

truth rules said...

Lindon, I actually knew the answer. We have been studying Paul's writings and I was aware that his teachings were different in syle as he spoke to the different groups. With the Jews he was more comparative with old Scripture but for the Gentiles all the teachings about God were new to them. But the point I wanted to make was that taking Scripture of of it's context is to make a statement isn't always proper. The Bible needs to be understood within the time and context of the writing.

Amy said...

You CANNOT make allowances for or excepts to RRoO and be in strict compliance of RRoO. You CANNOT pick and choose what parts of RRoO you wish to adhere to, and which parts you will make allowances for. It's ALL or NOTHING.
That's right. Just like the Tennessee rules for a non-profit organization!

truth rules said...

Can you ever be satisfied? One has to ask this question in light of the recent posts. Everyone wanted a business meeting, now we are going to have one. But the negative comments made me ask the first question. Here are some of the things I've noted:

They shouldn't have it on Sunday morning, too many of the membership at the morning service are not enlightened.

Everybody can't fit in the room...Robert's violation.

It will last too long...

I can't sit in the back and have my voice heard..

What about the children..

We'll get hungry...

As if all these problems are planned by those on that conspiracy committee..

As John Stossel would say....Give Me a Break!!!

Folks, just what will it take to satisfy you? You don't have to attend (oh, now the posts will fly about this being part of the plan), you don't have to be a member, and you certainly can have your day on Sunday. Just don't gripe about getting what you wanted.

New BBC Open Forum said...

And since our bylaws were written in 1929, long before the days of TV, etc. and since back then the entire congregation would fit in one room, obviously the bylaws don't address that. I cannot believe that in a congregation the size of BBC that somewhere along the line, someone didn't see the need to update the bylaws in the past 78 years! Looks like this church has been flying by the seat of its pants for many years and that perhaps things weren't working as well as a lot of people thought. Of course I suppose it was working for a select few, but we're just now seeing the results, and it ain't pretty.

DON said...

It's so incredibly odd how people end up thinking when they have lost total trust in leaders due to having been poorly treated and routinely betrayed.

I say ...make lots of fun at em
and call them whiners.

Yeaaa...Yeaaa....

lots of good will come on Sunday..

Im certain of it...

Cue the flying monkeys

New BBC Open Forum said...

Give it a rest, "truth" rules. You need to change your name to "power and money rule."

Yes, we're having a "business" meeting, but Sunday morning after sitting (and standing) through a whole worship service and pep rally isn't the time for it, and you and they (if you're not one and the same) know it. People are merely pointing this out. Why does that bother you so much?

I agree we have to try to be there. I've already stated it's disingenuous to have asked for a business meeting all this time only to say you're boycotting it. It's all we've got at this point, but unless you're blind or delusional, you have to admit the setup isn't geared towards getting any serious business done, at least not the congregation's business. It's a farce, and it's obvious. How stupid do they think we are?

Sunday morning is a time for worship, and many of the people who attend on Sunday mornings don't darken the door of the church the rest of the week and couldn't care less about church "business." What would be wrong with scheduling a separate business meeting for Sunday afternoon and let it run into the evening if need be? Provide nursery care for those who need it. I'm sure you could find enough paid workers and volunteers to staff the nursery for a few hours who wouldn't care if they missed the meeting. I doubt you'd have to worry about overflow crowds. Actually, I'm not sure we're going to have to worry about an overflow crowd Sunday morning, but I could be wrong.

charlie fox said...

Amy said...
Charlie,
your post must of gone up while I during my mutiple attempts to copy the squigly letters! Do you have the page and line for the meeting assembly. Also, Solomon it's to everyone's advantage to be together, how else can you be recognized if you have a privilideged motion?

Reply:
Robert's Rules of Order
Newly Revised
10th Edition
Chapter IV
Meeting And Session
Explanation of Terms
Pages 79 & 80

Support Brother Steve said...

If everyone will pass this along to their friends, we can have 10,000 signatures by Sunday. At best these dissenters only have a few hundred supporters. We love our pastor, let's show the world.

Please show your love and support for Brother Steve today!

Come on deacons, Bible Fellowship teachers and Bellevue staff, we expect you to lead the way. If you don't support the pastor, how can anyone else be expected to? Sign for Brother Steve now.

Amy said...

Truth,

You're right, people are getting a business meeting, and from what I can see, people on both sides of the issue have been asking for one. RRoO is the format. RRoO is a very appropriate because it was created so the minority is heard, and the majority rules. That being said, I think their are justifiable concerns about the time and set up. If you are in two different rooms, how can people make a priviledged motion if the chair can see them?
It might be distracting if infants and children are there, as it is lunch time and kids can complain loudly when they are bored.
It may be long, and I believe I brought that up. The members vote when the meeting ends, and I am sure there will be lots of motions- and each motion can take time as people debate and ammend them. I wanted folks to know they may be there awhile.

I would advise going to the meeting with an open mind. And, as it should be, if people get offensive in their remarks, or start addressing irrelevant matters, the chair, as well as the members, have a right to call the member to order, and they may have to sit down, or leave.

I truly pray that the members of your church feel positive about BBC moving forward after this meeting, and the motions that were passed. I see the addition of the parliamentarian, and the fact that it is stated members can then bring business to the floor after the business on the agenda is a positive sign.

I think the best way for this to happen is prayer and know your RRoO.

Amy said...

Thanks.

Support Brother Steve said...

No one is surprised to see Ace, Mike Bratton, Derrick Calcote, or Wendy Weatherwax Crouch sign my petition. Where are the rest of you? Come on, we can do this. Help me today!

MOM4 said...

It's a crying shame when we have to rely on RRoO instead of God's Word to have a meeting in a church.

Amy said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
General Henry M. Robert said...

Did you guys know General Robert started his rule book after a particularly bad church meeting he was asked to moderate?

Anyways...

Parliamentary Procedure
Charts & Articles


Parliamentary Motions Guide

Parliamentary Strategy

Motions

Robert's Rules of Order Revised
4th Ed., Public Domain

FYI the 10th edition is the current edition

National Association of Parliamentarians

FWIW - Robert's Rules are intended to get business done. In other words to reflect the will of the majority of members present at the meeting with respect to the business of the assembly. They don't protect the minority that much. If the minority is less than 1/3 of the members present then there is not much protection at all. When 2/3 of the members present want to do something it will pretty much get done. If the Moderator is not interested in being fair then the moderator + 50% + 1 person can also get a lot of things done.

One last thing it is abbreviated RONR for Robert's Rules Newly Revised (10th edition), not RRoO. Not that it matters much, just that's how people do it. The rules are good, but are only as good as the willingness of membership and the moderator to follow them.

solomon said...

You CANNOT make allowances for or excepts to RRoO and be in strict compliance of RRoO. You CANNOT pick and choose what parts of RRoO you wish to adhere to, and which parts you will make allowances for. It's ALL or NOTHING.

The only way into get all 30000 members in one room in Memphis is to use the Liberty Bowl, which technically isn't a room at all.
That being the case, RRoO can't be followed down to the last letter at Bellevue. Is that a hill worth dying on? Instead of scoffing at this attempt before we even see it, why not go with an open mind and discern whether or not any funny business is going on?

What would be your suggestion? Cancel the meeting?

BBC Refugee said...

Who is able to attend this business meeting?

Who is able to speak at this meeting?

Who is able to vote at this meeting?

One may say, "a church member, of course". Active or inactive?

The answers are found in most churches By-Laws.

Without By-Laws, this is left up to arbitrary decisions. With By-Laws, these things are spelled out and everyone knows what to expect. There is not a reason to be cynical.

Should children be at this business meeting? up to what age?

How old should a youth be to cast a vote?

If children are able to vote, how young should they be? 3...6..9?

If a previous member came and voted, is it against any "rule"?

Once again, what is the standard? Is there a standard or is this a standard of convenience...what fits the moment?

Is it possible for anyone to show up at this meeting and vote?

Who will determine this?

Lindon said...

"Come now, let us reason together!"

All the 'reason' you need is in scripture which your pastor chose to ignore. Be careful your definition of 'reason' does not morph into 'compromise'.

Come, LORD Jesus! said...

TruthRules,

Saw your morning posts about Paul's Gentile audience not having Scriptures to refer to though The Holy Ghost through Paul had told them to test Paul's teachings by Scripture.

You were in essence stating that there is an error in God's inerrant and infallible Word.

You need to quit blogging this morning and fall to your knees.

At what depths have you descended
in order to cause division while knowing that the world is reading this blog. There is a precious person called "Trollcakes" reading it who is not saved. To imply that God's Word is in error is to place a stumblingblock before a lost person that God has reading a Christian blog. "Cakes" soul is precious and God is reaching out to "Cakes" and so many many many other lost souls through this blog.

Blast us all out if that is your choice but PLEASE leave our Father's Word alone. It was paid for by The Blood of The LORD Jesus.

Zeal without knowledge is ignorance. It is for this reason that The Holy Spirit instructs us in God's Word to study to show ourselves approved as workmen that need not be ashamed before God. This instruction is not just given for you but for ALL of us in our quest to understand The LORD Jesus' inerrant and infallible Word.

ilovebbc said...

Perhaps the meeting will be done like a teleconference - those in the Fellowship Hall can speak to and hear those in the sanctuary and vice versa thanks to the big screens in both rooms and modern audio/video technology.

charlie fox said...

ilovebbc said...
Perhaps the meeting will be done like a teleconference - those in the Fellowship Hall can speak to and hear those in the sanctuary and vice versa thanks to the big screens in both rooms and modern audio/video technology.

REPLY:
That is allowed ONLY if it is ADDRESSED and PERMITTED by the BYLAWS!!!!!

Lindon said...

Truth wrote:Lindon, I actually knew the answer. We have been studying Paul's writings and I was aware that his teachings were different in syle as he spoke to the different groups. With the Jews he was more comparative with old "Scripture but for the Gentiles all the teachings about God were new to them. But the point I wanted to make was that taking Scripture of of it's context is to make a statement isn't always proper. The Bible needs to be understood within the time and context of the writing."

???????? Huh? So your post about the printing press, etc was just a ruse? You sure?

I am not sure why you decided to go on this roller coaster ride... so how was Acts 17 used out of context on the blog?

Also, I am still wondering where the part of Tamera's book I asked for on the last thread. I have not recieved your e-mail yet.

Lindon said...

"Folks, just what will it take to satisfy you?"

That is pretty easy, huh, folks? A pastor who never ignores scripture.

Amy said...

BBC Refuge,
I would call, or email DC and ask.

Those are good questions.
Also, are all 30,000 "members"- Baptized by emersion, and/or letter from another SBC, or is that the entire congregation- people on the roll but not true members?

Amy said...

I have a present for my NBBCOF friends to download. I am just sorry I can't inscride a personal message on each copy!

Official Robert's Rules Pocket Manuel

Come, LORD Jesus! said...

Thanks, Amy!!!

Lin said...

Truthrules: Here is a very interesting exposition on the Bereans and scripture just posted today.

http://teampyro.blogspot.com/

DON said...

You could not sell being RELEVANT

without first selling the Bible as
being IRRELEVANT

And that

is just what the enemy has done

sold " relevance" ..in tandem with underming SCRIPTURAL AUTHORITY

wHILE MOST SLEPT..

This is the legacy of liberalism in seminary and leadership positions.

Nothing is absolute..

All is relative

Pragmatism reigns..

and Fear of The Lord is replaced by a spirit of haughty arrogance.

Romans 1 calls it a reprobate mind..

2nd Timothy calls it a seared conscience..

I call it...the most amazing fulfillemnt of Bible prophecy these eyes have seen..to date

Maranatha..

junk99mail said...

RE: The Bereans

Just a point of clarification, since the subject of proper context of the Bereans came up.

Paul never commended the Bereans for checking to see if what he taught was in accordance with the scriptures.

Acts 17 states that the Berean Jews were more noble than the Thessalonian Jews because the Bereans received Paul's message of the gospel and they studied the scriptures to see if what Paul was saying was true.

Thus it was not Paul, but it was Luke, the author of Acts, by inspiration of the Holy Spirit, who commended the Bereans for checking Paul's teaching against the scriptures. One can speculate whether Paul commended the Bereans too, but the Bible doesn't say that.

Just sayin' ... but I'm somewhat hesitant to correct others, as Lindon has asked me to assure her that I don't teach anyone. :)

By the way, of course the scriptures referred to were the Bible of the Jews (our Old Testament), which would have been available for study by any of the Jews via the synagogue. The implication is that the Berean Jews studied these things together, collectively, according to the normal practice of synagogues of the day. This would be akin to what we would call a Bible study and discussion.

Lin said...

"Why I can't preach on Wed nights:

Why don’t you preach on Wednesday night? (audience laughs)

Why did we use Dr. Agee with all these preachers we have here?

Dr. Agee is one of my dearest friends. First of all, why don’t I preach on Wednesday night…good question...I’ll tell you why.

I have children. I have school-aged children...I can’t be out every night of the week. (audience applauds)

I have volleyball games…I have things to go to….and I am there every time I can be there…and I don’t miss much…because they’ve got one person that can be their Daddy, and that’s me. And so I chose…..(applause)….I chose on Wednesday night to save that for I wasn’t preaching…

And I go to committee meetings…every three weeks I have a …right now I’m trying to get to meet all the deacons… every three weeks I meet with five deacon couples and we have a dinner and, uh, we get to know one another….that’s been wonderful.

I have committee meetings on those nights and also during the entire fall I, I went to meetings like the groups, the youth and the, uh,….I’ve had all those age groups, I’ve had all kind…and we are doing…listen to me…we are doing every…Donna and I…we are doing everything we know to try get to know you folks. Wednesday night is a night that I need to .I go visiting on Tuesday night and then I go…I, I, I’m meeting on those Wednesday nights.

If I didn’t do what I do on Wednesday night, I’d be gone four or five nights out of the week. I cannot raise a Godly family and be gone every night of the week. (audience applauds)"

This transcript cannot be for real.

Just a thought: Forget Volleyball and meetings. Prayer and Worship are more important to being a 'godly dad'. Church is very inconvenient when it comes to children's sports and meetings, huh?

Are you guys really sure you want this man as a 'shepherd'? He has some strange beliefs...for a shepherd.

Support Brother Cakes said...

"There is a precious person called "Trollcakes" reading it who is not saved. To imply that God's Word is in error is to place a stumblingblock before a lost person that God has reading a Christian blog. "Cakes" soul is precious and God is reaching out to "Cakes" and so many many many other lost souls through this blog."

Hey, hey--that's one vote.

But please don't ask for augmented behavior for my benefit from Gaines supporters. I've lived most of my 44 years in the church and amongst evangelicals, since they are everywhere around here; so I've seen the worst examples of Christ, believe me, but I've witnessed amazing acts of generosity and loving-kindness too.

I imagine that y'all read my conversion to Buddhism as a reaction to Christians. It may well be, but it is not any antagonism for hypocrites. Growing up, both my father and mother were very staunch in the supremacy of their religious beliefs; the caveat being that they didn't share the same religion. The situation at home--one parent insisting that his or hers is the truth; the other insisting, no, quite the opposite, that is heresy--became even worse when they divorced. Like, which parent are you going to stab in the back?

Eventually, I saw that these kinds of diadactic convictions regarding matters that cannot be deduced ether plausably or conclusively on this side of the veil (that's why it's called faith), as the root of so much conflict and suffering spanning time itself, from the division of families to horrible wars.

I came here simply as one curious, as a survivor of childhood sexual abuse and as an advocate for children, not looking for God nor friends, only to find sympathy with the small faction of members seeking an open and accountable resolution to the failures at BBC.

My hand stretches toward you. I am here as a watcher, and as always, I'll watch your backs.

Support Brother Cakes said...

I failed to add--having grown to know you, virtually, I gladly call you my friends.

sheeplessatbbc said...

CAKES,

Blessings to you.

solomon said...

This transcript cannot be for real.

Just a thought: Forget Volleyball and meetings. Prayer and Worship are more important to being a 'godly dad'. Church is very inconvenient when it comes to children's sports and meetings, huh?

Are you guys really sure you want this man as a 'shepherd'? He has some strange beliefs...for a shepherd.


The pastor of Bellevue has not preached regularly on Wednesday nights since 'DiscipleLife' started. Dr. Rogers faithfully prepared sermon after sermon (even preaching the Wednesday that his father passed away), and the attendance was horrendous. It took a church program to bring people out.

I've heard it said that you can tell how much a church loves Jesus by their Wednesday night attendance. Unfortunately, it takes church programs like DiscipleLife and 'Awesome August' to bring us out now.

Just watch how much the attendance will drop when the 'semester' ends.

Shame on us.

Lin said...

Dittos Cakes...(our resident wordsmith).

junk99mail said...

support brother cakes,
So, where is your petition for support? I bet it would get more signatures than the one for SG. :)

Lin said...

sol wrote "The pastor of Bellevue has not preached regularly on Wednesday nights since 'DiscipleLife' started."

Does he attend Wed at all? Other than a 'meeting'.

Does it really matter how many attend on Wed nights? If three are gathered...well, you know the rest...

Support Brother Cakes said...

Oh Junk,

I know; I'm just poking fun and it is as easy as editing ones profile, but actually going to the trouble of making a petition would be extreme; besides, I'm lazy.

MOM4 said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
junk99mail said...

Per Acts 2:42-47, the early church met daily to study, pray, fellowship, and "break bread" (most likely meaning fellowship meals accompanied by observing the Lord's Supper). They did this in various venues (the temple, synagogues, homes). This is the true "old fashioned" way.

WatchingHISstory said...

AOG

Is dispensationalism one of many views of Biblical revelation?

If there are many views is one right or are they all theories?

charlie fox said...

WatchingHISstory said...
AOG

Is dispensationalism one of many views of Biblical revelation?

If there are many views is one right or are they all theories?

Reply:

This is OFF TOPIC.

MOM4 said...

NASS,
Perhaps we need to repost the list by 25+ since the posters keep getting off topic?

WatchingHISstory said...

funny, why is being off-topic now a problem? Where have you been?

Is dispensationalism one of many views of Biblical revelation?

If there are many views is one right or are they all theories?

Seems this question needs answered.

New BBC Open Forum said...

charlie,

I think "dispensationalism" is going to have to go on our list of "banned" words!

Seriously, those discussions are great, but they have their place, and I'm not sure this is it. "Allofgrace" has a fantastic blog for those sorts of discussions. This is the link, and it's always been on the front page in the list of links.

Speaking of banned words, let's put "Kool-Aid drinkers" and its variations on the same list. It's offensive to some and not gaining us any credibility. And yes, I know there are words from the other "side" which are just as offensive, but there's no need for anyone to stoop to that level.

New BBC Open Forum said...

With pleasure:

25+yrs@BBC said...

Here are a few important changes that would help during these days of crisis in leadership:

I. Pastoral Accountability to the Congregation:
1. A business meeting in accord with Matthew 18 to deal with the issues that remain related to Mark Sharpe and "the Dream"... and any other loose ends that should have been dealt with months ago!!
2. The giving records of the membership and the ministers on staff at Bellevue should never be for pastoral review in any shape, form, or fashion.
3. No church credit cards.
4. An admission Dr. Gaines should have never given $25k to FUMC and an explanation of policy changes to prevent a repeat.
5. A policy for open books on Holy land trips and no overcharging of members. Free tickets for the host and wife are fine but not for anybody else.
6. Full disclosure of ministerial compensation: salary + benefit breakdown, etc.
7. Timely removal from office of ministers guilty of sexual immorality with immediate and timely coordination with the appropriate authorities if any laws have been broken by a minister (no matter how long ago), including thorough investigation of the matter when the minister’s conduct may have affected other church members or their children.

II. Congregational Church governance:
Some of the congregation has awakened to the reality that our church has a set of "lay-elders," a close knit group of men who manage to be appointed to key positions year after year. The rest of the congregation needs to be awakened.

1. Those who are part of this lay-elder "power block" need to step down from positions of influence for a long time. Bellevue needs “new blood” in these key positions.
2. There needs to be the signing of a public conflict of interest form for any member that has any business contract to provide services for the church. These people should not be allowed to serve on committees that review bids for their services.
3. Congregational nomination of and election of all of the Board of Directors as called for in the 1929 bylaws.
4. A quarterly business meeting with open mike Q&A with each committee chairman. **The current bylaws mention "monthly" business meetings! When were they changed??
5. A good updated set of bylaws similar to GBC.
6. A transparent committee selection process.
7. Much greater congregational oversight of the current budget with a transparent policy for consideration of non-budgeted expenditures exceeding a reasonable amount.
8. Thorough communication with the Congregation for ANY capital project well in advance of any vote. Building prayer buildings or any other type of building should be brought through proper channels to the congregation for prayerful consideration--not coerced "rubber stamping." [By the way, Dr. Rogers taught us quite a bit about prayer. As a matter of fact, I believe all of the current buildings ARE prayer buildings already. He and Dr. Whitmire also taught us quite a bit about worship also... but that's another topic].
9. Bellevue needs to reject Warrenism fully and finally.
10. Higher standards should be put in place for the hiring of "ministers." Seminary training should be considered a normal prerequisite.

III. Treatment of ministers on staff at BBC and members:
1. A whistle blower policy for ministers, staff, and members.
2. The end of heavy handed dealing with ministers, staff, and members; and the end of signing non-disclosure statements. All ministers who have been pressured or asked to sign such non-disclosure statements should be released from them in writing by BBC! Former staff should be allowed to address the congregation and/or the deacon body either in writing or in person without any fear of reprisal regarding their exit from BBC. Gaines has confessed to mishandling Dr. Whimire's exit... The congregation now needs to hear from Dr. Whimire--and several others--by letter or in person IN THEIR OWN WORDS. The congregation needs to know how their leadership has treated and is treating ministers who leave the service of our Lord through BBC.
3. Forgiveness for those in leadership who have allowed this to deteriorate to this point--AND consequences for their actions.

All in my opinion as usual.

Amy said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Amy said...

25+ Said

A good updated set of bylaws similar to GBC.

Actually,you could get the majority of your wish list in an updated version of your bylaws. GBC's is 30+ pages long.

WatchingHISstory said...

How could a church like Bellevue go for so long with a 1929 by-laws?

Seems to me there is some awful neglect somewhere?

solomon said...


Does he attend Wed at all? Other than a 'meeting'.

Does it really matter how many attend on Wed nights? If three are gathered...well, you know the rest...


Actually, there have been very few Wednesdays that I haven't seen SGs vehicle parked in his parking place. I haven't seen him in the service but a couple of times, though.

Of course, if attendance isn't really that important, I don't guess it matters whether he's there or not. Where two or more are gathered...

WatchingHISstory said...

How old were GBC by-laws when they revised them?

How old are by-laws of other large SBC churches?

How could a large SBC, congregationally ruled church not have current by-laws?

Is it just neglect of leadership?

These are some questions that need to be asked.

maybejustmaybe said...

NASS, thank you for banning the "beverage partakers" comment.

Amy said...

WHS,
You have mail!!!

GBC bylaws were ammended in 2005 and re-written in 1994(pretty sure)

I doubt those 1929 bylaws were the most current set. Especially how the Powers the Be made the BBC member(forgot who)jump through hoops to see them.

WatchingHISstory said...

amy

This should be viewed as an embarrassment for Bellevue!

I was impressed with what you sent me, thanks.

Amy said...

WHS,
Actually GBC bylaws are due for a little overhaul some time in the near future.

WatchingHISstory said...

With the help of my Websters' Dictionary I spliced together some words:

The congregation granted to the leadership exclusive or special right, power or privilege with no other authority than the claim of prerogative. The assumption was that the leader would always be benvolent.

So a lot of the fault lies with the congregation.

Lin said...

"Of course, if attendance isn't really that important, I don't guess it matters whether he's there or not. Where two or more are gathered..."

Do you really mean that in regards to the pastor?

charlie fox said...

WatchingHISstory said...
funny, why is being off-topic now a problem? Where have you been?

REPLY:

I've been right here watching posters get OFF TOPIC.

imaresistor said...

Is there any effort ongoing to encourage the strayed sheep to come to the meeting. I would imagine there are those who have been gone for sometime now, who are pretty much 'settled in' elsewhere?

imaresistor said...

Does anybody have any idea how many of these strayed sheep have actually moved their letter to another church?

gmommylv said...

IMA,
No idea of a total number but have been calling and emailing from old lists and most I have reached can't stomach coming back. Some haven't been back since the PW report,others since the DC ordination. One very faithful family said they cried all the way home when they realized they would not even have the opportunity to vote no at the DC "unity sermon" night.
God has more experience with all this than we do. We just need to be faithful to what we know and not run or play dead. I am sure the "leadership" has been working overtime to stage Sunday morning just right. Nothing like some business after playing to the emotions. That's fine tho. God uses the humble to shame the proud.
BTW,can we trade names....imaresistor too.

Amy said...

I asked this question earlier-

Also, are all 30,000 "members"- Baptized by emersion, and/or letter from another SBC, or is that the entire congregation- people on the roll but not true members?

Does anyone know?

Amy said...

I know there are quite a few at GBC (like my good BBC friend who told me this) who are worshiping with us, but haven't moved their membership so they could vote, and see if things improved. I told her they were welcome to worship at GBC anytime- just tithe to us while your doing so! JUST KIDDING!

Not a member of a church said...

I really think you all at BBC should just leave, forget it this church sounds like it is a big mess, and you all can not fix it only the LORD himself can. leave it up to him he will do it. it sound like your church is a big mess.

And a mess like BBC only leads people to sin more. give up, just cry to the LORD. and do not condemn them BBC from the pastor on down just pray to the LORD and cry also forgive them. forgivness does not mean you approve of what they say or do.

Koragg said...

I've been going to Faith.

I got invited to a Bellevue beach retreat Memorial Day weekend but I told him no and told him specifically that I will not participate in any Bellevue activities while ungodly men are leading the church.

WatchingHISstory said...

Actually, the leadership is without any real by-laws to guide them. So they will have to resort to a strict guide of RROO. It is obvious that many on this blog will not be satisfied but Bellevue will be returning back to a SBC congregational rule and this will be the first step toward a revised by-laws. The question is what kind of rule has Bellevue been under?

junk99mail said...

At 8:49 PM, March 22, 2007
Amy said...
Also, are all 30,000 "members"- Baptized by emersion, and/or letter from another SBC, or is that the entire congregation- people on the roll but not true members?

junk99mail says...
Amy, I'm confused by the question. The way it was asked, the answer would be "both". Everyone on the role of a SB church is considered a "member". Bellevue has about 30,000 people on the membership roll, and all of those would have become members by immersion and/or by transfer from another church that immerses (usually from a SB church but not always). But since you asked it as either/or, I'm guessing you must have meant something else. The 30,000 members on the roll are not all active, regular participants in the church (for various reasons), if that's what you meant. For example, when I left BBC some years ago, I joined a church of another denomination (gasp!), so there was no transfer of membership (by "letter") as is done when moving from one SB church to another. So for a time, until I called BBC and notified them I had joined a non-SB church, I was on the membership list of both churches. Hope that helps answer your question.

Amy said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
sheeplessatbbc said...

Two new letters on savingbellevue.com, very good reading from Mark Sharp and another person.

Sunday should be a very awakening experience. If the fiasco doesn't wake and shake people, I fear nothing will.

We should all pray that God will move in mighty ways on Sunday and His will be done and for His glory.

Amy said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
concernedSBCer said...

I saw two interesting comments from the SavingBellevue site letter concerning the meeting:

Those members who would like to speak and make a presentation should be well prepared with their motion for action presented to the moderator in written form.

and

It is important that concerned church members be present and give full support toward overcoming the problems at Bellevue. With so many issues at hand and such little time to conduct actual “business” it may be necessary to schedule monthly or quarterly congregational business meetings to bring everything up-to-date. Maybe someone will make that motion!

Seems to me written motions better be in hand. Just a heads up......

solomon said...

"Of course, if attendance isn't really that important, I don't guess it matters whether he's there or not. Where two or more are gathered..."

Do you really mean that in regards to the pastor?


Why not? If the congregation doesn't care enough about the church God has prepared for them to turn off the TV on Wednesday night and worship corporately, what does it matter who preaches?

You'd think with all the bellyaching about the pastor and Jamie that people would be coming out in droves to hear Joe Jernigan preach and Jon Tyner lead the music. You won't find more authentic worship music and preaching anywhere, so why don't people come?

Why is it that when our church has these Wednesday night 'discipleship' classes junk like 'Experiencing God' packs people in so much that we need the sheriff's dept. to help with traffic, but plain old church doesn't hold anyone's interest?

Why was it that the auditorium was jam packed the Sunday night the personel committee gave the PW report, but one-third full the rest of the time?

There's Bellevue's real problem. Paul and Silas worshiped in prison. Daniel worshipped while captive in Babylon.

David said "I was glad when they said to me, 'Let us go to the house of the LORD.'"

I'm afraid those days are over and done with.

charlie fox said...

"The church has hired a special “parliamentarian” to conduct the meeting in an orderly manner according to “Robert’s Rules of Order”.

REPLY:

The above was copied from Savingbellevue, and it needs clarification. The Parliamentarian will NOT conduct the meeting. The moderator WILL conduct the meeting. The sole purpose of the Parliamentarian is to render a ruling on correct RRoO procedure, IF called upon to do so. If he sees an error being made, he will NOT say a word. It is up to the moderator or a member of the assembly to REQUEST a ruling from him.

oc said...

I'm baaaaaack!! Concerned, thanks for advice for fixin' my pooter!

Amy said...

Concerned said:
Seems to me written motions better be in hand.

They need to be written and handed to the moderator because he will need to read it back for the debate, change wording if it's ammended, and vote.

socwork said...

welcome back, oc!

oc said...

Why in 'the world' does it have to be so complicated?

oc said...

Hey Socwork, missed you, glad to be back. By the way...... uh, uh, car?

socwork said...

Nothin' for ya, my friend.

junk99mail said...

charlie fox,
You've stated that according to Robert's Rules of Order, the only way a church can have a meeting that includes members in overflow seating in another room connected in via video conference is if the by-laws state this can be done (which BBC bylaws do not). Plus you said that if a ruling on procedure from the parlimentarian is desired, the moderator or a member must request it. So...if overflow seating is used, what would be the appropriate timing and method and wording for a member to request a ruling on the validity of the meeting? And what would happen if the parlimentatian ruled that it was out of order? Would that require an immediate cessation of the meeting? Or could the parlimentarian rule that it was acceptable to continue with the meeting even if the meeting was in violation of the rules? Or can the moderator and/or members of the meeting choose to ignore or override the parlimentarian's ruling and choose to proceed even if there is a ruling of a violation? In essence, I'm asking what are the rules about what should happen if the meeting itself is found to be in violation of the rules? Or am I straining at gnats?

sickofthelies said...

I"m thirsty.

junk99mail said...

Hi, SOTL,
Try some Living Water ...
:)

oc said...

Socwork,
Concerned told me to trust you, that you would come through. Now you're acting like you're not 'socwork Winfrey.' I'm starting to get irritated and so are my feet. You need to 'git er done!' Ma feets be bleedin',



Your friend and mine,

oc.

oc said...

Concerned!
Need your help! Socwork is not cooperating

oc said...

Why in 'the world' does it have to be so complicated?

junk99mail said...

oc,
Where is it that you keep walking to and from? What about taking a bus? Or hitchhiking?

Did you have a car and get rid of it in anticipation of the benevolence of socwork?

oc said...

Why in 'THE WORLD' does it have to be so complicated?

junk99mail said...

SOTL! Are you not talking to me anymore?? Did I do something wrong?

oc said...

Junk,
You got it right. I live on empty promises. I walk to and fro, waiting for the next 'bus' hoping to take me to truth. I hitchhike the highway of broken dreams, and yet there is no free ride. Yes, I have trusted a friend and a promise, yet both have failed me.

Heck no bro! I just wanted a free ride!

junk99mail said...

oh, ok, oc! "Good luck" with that!

junk99mail said...

oc, by the way, does oc stand for obsessive compulsive? 'cuz that's how you seem about this whole car thing! just sayin'.... :)

sickofthelies said...

junk,

I have comcast for my IP, and it is not letting me post on here very often..

You didn't do anything wrong!!!

((((( junk)))))))

Comcast, on the other, hand, well, don't get me started!!!

junk99mail said...

SOTL,
Ok, thanks, just checking! Hope you are doing well. Still praying for you. {{{{SOTL}}}}

I used to have Time Warner RoadRunner and it was ok, but when I moved last summer it was going to take weeks to get cable connected, so I went with DirecTV and Bellsouth DSL. That's ok, too, but I've been thinking of switching back to cable. Now that it is owned by Comcast is it any worse than when it was Time Warner?

Oh, and just to stay on topic...business meeting! There, that oughta do it!

oc said...

Junk,
well, let's see...when I started walking, I was 6'4, now I am 5'8, my knees are my new feet. They call me 'stumpy'. Wouldn't you want a car?

junk99mail said...

oc, at least you are in good company. See this:
http://www.jokeswarehouse.com/
cgi-bin/viewjoke2.cgi?id=20060331

And now it is time for me to go to sleep. l8r!

oc said...

Yeah, right! Get my 'pooter fixed, and everyone goes to sleep. You sissies!!!!

Bepatient said...

Junkmail,

Comcast should be paying ME for this internet service. Even then I would consider switching....

but a few people I know have not had too much trouble with it.

oc said...

And by the way....


Why in THE WORLD does it have to be so complicated?

oc said...

Goodnight, SISSIES!

Support Brother Cakes said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Support Brother Cakes said...

Cakes here (thesaraus.com),

"Seems to me written motions better be in hand. Just a heads up......"

You are root'n toot'n (this g-rated exclaimation is killing me) you'd better have it in writing, not just for the sake of getting past the floor show, but this is going to be a hostile atmosphere in which to introduce anything that throws cold water on the "celebration." Like, what's your problem, troublemaker.

Write the statement; read the statement. Then whatever cross words or actions might follow will not diminish the proclamation nor its definitive motions so easily dismissed.

Simplifify the communication to a few, if exhaustively articulated, points and hone the motion so as to pierce only those matters most grevious and for which the evidence is categorical.

If the shock troops here are any indication, they would love the opportunity to discredit a bunch of malcontents spilling a litany of complaints over Rick Warren, church music, donations, salaries, labrynths, etc., and I suspect even attempt to draw fire there. (This is not to say they should not be important to you.) Do not be goaded into debating minutia; and remain calm and meassured in your words and behavior.

If I can be of any help editing the motion or with the writing even, just holler.

gmommylv said...

Cakes,
You are wise and sweet!

concernedSBCer said...

BePatient, junk, SOTL: Comcast is the pits. You are right....they should be paying me.....random outages, long waits for customer service...but they have a monopoly. I've gotta have broadband for my job...and I think Comcast stinks.

Back on topic.....in addition to written motions, I'd pack a snack with a bottle of water as well. And if you have kids, a bag of coloring books, snacks, quiet games probably wouldn't be a bad idea....

With regarding to voting, earlier someone asked about who would be allowed to vote. I think every member carries the same weight in most churches. If a 6 year old has been saved and joined the church, they are a member just as the 65 year old committee chairman. Right or wrong, they are all members of the body of Christ.

Have you received a list of committees and the people recommended to be on those committees yet?

WatchingHISstory said...

The congregation granted to the leadership exclusive or special right, power or privilege with no other authority than the claim of prerogative. The assumption was that the leader would always be benevolent.

Actually, the leadership is without any real by-laws to guide them. So they will have to resort to a strict guide of RROO. It is obvious that many on this blog will not be satisfied but Bellevue will be returning back to a SBC congregational rule and this will be the first step toward a revised by-laws.

The question is what kind of rule HAS Bellevue been under?

sickofthelies said...

junkmail

BUSINESS MEETING.

:)

Now,

Cable with Comcast has not been too bad. HOWEVER, my phone will go out and will be out for DAYS!! DAYS!!! did you hear me? DAYS!!!
And when I FINALLY get them on the phone, after waiting on hold on my cell phone for 45 minutes, they are in no hurry to get it repaired...told me they would be out in the middle of the NEXT week.

The Internet Service is worse than the phone service. For some reason, it will not allow me to pull up any page that is secure.
I can no longer get my bank statement online, and it will only let me post on this blog occasionally. It's like there's a little comcast man in my computer and sometimes he takes a nap, and that's when I can post :)

Thanks for your prayers. :)

imaresistor said...

"someone asked about who would be allowed to vote"

I believe this to be a matter of great concern. When the service has concluded, are the non-members going to be dismissed? Anybody know? How about this Charlie? Anything in RRoO on this?

Ima

Brady said...

We have been operating under "Dr. Rogers Rules" for the past few years and that worked just fine. Changing things is going to be extremely difficult.

Just a little hint: the moderator (who will probably be Dr. Gaines) will immediately rule you out of order if you make a personal attack or sound malicious in your statements. You also need to remember that just because you make a motion isn't the final step. The moderator will then ask for a vote if the motion should be voted upon and your motion can disappear in a second.

I hope we all behave on Sunday. It would be a disgrace to the Lord if we didn't.

WatchingHISstory said...

A pedophile walked the halls of the stately and gallant ship of the SBC for seventeen years. Were there no crew on board to detect this pervert.

Was the captain blind or blinded. Did God allow the pedophile to roam freely to expose the "sin on board". Did the captain not see nor hear the fierce, deeper speech than a mortal man can perceive?

Was there a stiring in his Spirit to seek God? Was God silent?

concernedSBCer said...

and also a disgrace if God's Word was not honored in the treatment of His sheep....

truth rules said...

"I believe this to be a matter of great concern. When the service has concluded, are the non-members going to be dismissed? Anybody know? How about this Charlie? Anything in RRoO on this?"
Wrote Ima

Ima, not Charlie, but there is no way to separate members from non-members without a role call. How do you see this as a matter of great concern? The non-members would not make enough of a difference in a vote to matter unless there is a vote which is close. In that case some could call for a ballot vote where all voters receiving ballots would have to establish their membership. The church database would be that basis.

Dane said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
onlyamember said...

Just wanted to give you an update on the teen being escorted out of the church.

That is how it is being told......

Eleven days after the fact; dad finally gets to speak to someone. Never spoke to Steve; but did talk to David Coombs. Nothing is being done. David says an apology from him is an apology from the church and security. Noone is being fired! Most of our security are 'Rent-a-Cops'. They rotate. So the one that cussed and cuffed her has been 'rotated off'. David Coombs said that the security guard says he apologized to her; the child can't remember one. The church never would have called this family if this family had not stayed on the church to address this. BUT NOTHING HAPPENED! This family is trying to do the right thing. They have been searching the Word for answers. They would like to stay at Bellevue; so they feel their hands are tied. Just please pray for this family. Pray for this child as she continues to walk the halls at Bellevue. I have seen a tremendous growth in her, and I pray that she will be able to accept the fact that her church failed her.

Brady said...
This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
concernedSBCer said...

Only: I am appalled and sadened that this incident is not being addressed better than this. We should expect more from our churches....they should want to be "more" than the world. That may be the problem with having so many in leadership that are from the world's view of things rather than men who have been called by God to be "not of the world".

concernedSBCer said...

oops: saddened

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