Let's try this again:
Resolution passed at the 2002 Southern Baptist Convention:
On the Sexual Integrity of Ministers
A separate thread for discussion of Calvinism vs. Arminianism is below.
Resolution passed at the 2002 Southern Baptist Convention:
On the Sexual Integrity of Ministers
A separate thread for discussion of Calvinism vs. Arminianism is below.
790 comments:
1 – 200 of 790 Newer› Newest»Comments moved from previous thread:
MOM4 said...
It is working now! The resolution contains the perfect answers for ALL of the problems we are having at BBC. From the business to the integrity to accountability to perversion issues. It is only one page - if they don't know the scriptures well enough to operate biblically, they can at least have this to go by for a start.
WHY DON'T THEY GET IT???
2:28 PM, March 14, 2007
Come, LORD Jesus! said...
Dear MOM4,
You ask with such heartfelt and earnest sincerity, "WHY DON'T THEY GET IT?"
The LORD Jesus answered this in Matthew 13: 15,16. Our Father said "For this people's heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them. But blessed are your eyes, for they see: and your ears, for they hear."
We hope this helps you, Dear Sister.
Stephen and Bonita Ann Richie
Living Hope In Jesus
www.livinghopeinjesus.com
3:09 PM, March 14, 2007
Tim said...
From the SBC June 2002 Resolution;
...RESOLVED, That we call on our churches to discipline those guilty of any sexual abuse in obedience to Matthew 18:6-17 as well as to cooperate with civil authorities in the prosecution of those cases;...
To understand the full weight this resolution you need to realize how few resolutions are actually passed and how discussed this item would have been at the convention. Logic would dictate that this meeting in St. Louis would have been attended by those from Memphis, Nashville, Birmingham, Gardendale...etc. It would be virtually impossible to have attended this convention and not been aware of this resolution.
2:48 PM, March 15, 2007
oc said...
Tim,
We need a resolution such as this?
Then I'm going to go ahead and say it....GOD HELP US! We are too much like the world...NO! We ARE the world!!! I'm gettin' sick.
3:13 PM, March 15, 2007
Tim & MOM4,
It was just a "mistake of the mind" of mortal men.
oc said...
Tim,
We need a resolution such as this?
Then I'm going to go ahead and say it....GOD HELP US! We are too much like the world...NO! We ARE the world!!! I'm gettin' sick.
REPLY:
WELL HELLOOOOOOOO!!!!!!!!
It is sad that there is a need for a resolution such as this, but sadder that it isn't being adhered to in the SBC.
Charlie,
I'm not naive, but this makes me sick. I'm serious. Feel like going to Montana and hiding in a cave. Not kidding, makes me want to puke!!! This is embarrassing.
oc,
I hear ya, brother!!! It is to be expected, when the church becomes like the world.
Uh, Charlie, by the way, don't do this to me again...
WELL HELLOOOOOOOO!!!!!!!!
I'm 49 years old. Don't need it. Thanks.
oc,
Heh heh. Would you have preferred "duh"?
OC: You've got mail.
nbbcof,
'Duh' wouldn't work for me. Not blonde. More kinda like bald. What word would work for me? Probably 'shine your head for a quarter'. But that's more than one word. Oh, well...
oc said...
Uh, Charlie, by the way, don't do this to me again...
WELL HELLOOOOOOOO!!!!!!!!
I'm 49 years old. Don't need it. Thanks.
REPLY:
I gotcha by 15 years. It was not meant to be condesending, but in TOTAL AGREEMENT with you. Sorry, you misunderstood.
Hey guys! How about less resolutions and more following scripture??? It's all in there. :o)
This is something that should not have required a resolution by the SBC. However, since it was less than 5 years ago it would hardly be considered "uncharted waters".
Charlie,
Please forgive my misunderstanding. I have been dealing with the likes of JMO, etc, and so am probably a little sensitive for an old fart. Oh, wait, can I say that? Well, I did, and that's me. Love me or leave me.
oc said...
Charlie,
Please forgive my misunderstanding. I have been dealing with the likes of JMO, etc, and so am probably a little sensitive for an old fart. Oh, wait, can I say that? Well, I did, and that's me. Love me or leave me.
Reply:
I understand completely. We've all been there. I thought I was going to have to make to you the same suggestion that you made to "reporter" 2 threads back. LOL.
Don't say OLD, when I've got those 15 years on ya.
My choice is the Love You as a fellow brother in Christ.
Thanks for choosing that, Charlie. But maybe not your wisest choice. But thanks again, and 'back at ya'.
Cakes here--get out your Handlist of Rhetorical Terms.
I don't believe Padre is stupid; there's definitely a piquant backstory as to why he sat on his hands for six months.
Maybe he just became overwhelmed and shut down at yet another scandal under his padreship--and this ain't no itty-bitty fence; perhaps Williams had something on BBC or staff member and levied it as a counter. He could simply have been well-liked, even, enough to be protected.
Who knows? If no exhaustive, independent investigation of the pedophile scandal ever occurs, it will always be up for speculation. But don't go gossiping now.
What is not under speculation is that the aboved occured. And whatever the justification, those ministers, along with padre, who chose to do nothing exhibit a lack of discernment and integrity; thus, have forfeited expectations to leadership or continued trust.
MUAH!
PS--Some debate on predestination and free will, there. Whu-wee! I'm more a proponent of Calvin-n-Hobbsism, myself. Come back Mrs. C.; how's the Fonz?
Hey Charlie...
I wondered what age bracket you are in. Now I know. You are an old geeser aren't ya!
*grinning*
Ima
imaresistor said...
Hey Charlie...
I wondered what age bracket you are in. Now I know. You are an old geeser aren't ya!
*grinning*
Ima
Reply:
Yep, I am. Not a youngster like yourself. Good thing is NO PEER PRESSURE!!!!!!!
Trollcakes, just for you...
http://atheistempire.com/
entertainment/humor/
calvin-565x191.png
HA!
Although I don't think that is the boy scout way.
?boy scout way? sorry, ya lost me there ...
Ima,
Back off Charlie about his age. He just hired me to protect him, and I'm 5 years the other side of dirt. So, if you mess with him, you mess with ....OOOOWWWWCH!!!! Think I just got a hitch in my get-along! Well, ok, guess I'll threaten you another day. Maybe. OHHH! Sorry Charlie, you're on your own.....
oc,
Thanx for the effort. Go rest your get-along. I may need ya later. BTW, I know ima.
Re: the subject of this thread ...
Resolutions passed at the annual SBC meetings represent an agreement that a matter is important and that the Convention messengers desire to send a message to the world and to the churches that the matter deserves special attention. Resolutions are also intended to apply the teachings of scripture to real situations facing the church and the culture. As such, resolutions are good--but, like any other truth, the good they do is only in proportion to the extent to which they are applied. Hopefully some churches and pastors took notice of the resolution and took steps to put the relevant biblical principles into practice. But I believe that the resolution itself stopped short of all that could be said or done.
Although SB churches, as independent entities (autonomous) can not be forced to comply with any external directive, nor even to make use of denominational resources available to them, if sexual integrity of ministers is to be taken seriously across the denominations, then the national denominational organization needs to develop an office for promoting ministerial integrity and for reporting and investigating any lack of integrity. The SBC has programs, organizations, and agencies to promote the education of ministers (seminaries) and of members (Bible study curricula), to promote missions (International Mission Board, North American Mission Board), to train for evangelism (FAITH), and on and on ... none of which any local church is required to use or participate in, but all of which any church can use and is encouraged to use, and which most churches are wise to use, given the greater resources available to them through their pooled Cooperative Program funds than what most churches can accomplish on their own. One of the existing organizations is called The Ethics & Religious Liberty Commission, which is "an agency of the Southern Baptist Convention that is dedicated to addressing social and moral concerns and their implications on public policy issues from City Hall to Congress" (from erlc.com). A primary role of this agency is to provide information to the churches, as their mission statement says, "To awaken, inform, energize, equip, and mobilize Christians to be the catalysts for the Biblically-based transformation of their families, churches, communities, and the nation." But the current focus of the organization has been to impact public policy and laws related to abortion and homosexuality. Surely it would be worth the relatively minimal cost and additional effort required to establish an office within this agency to maintain information on proven and documented ministerial misconduct, provide churches with such information, assist with background checks, etc. It is a shame that such an office is needed -- but an even greater shame that the need is known and nothing is being done about it!
A question:
Has the Southern Baptist Convention ever ousted a Southern Baptist Church due to nonadherence to the Southern Baptist Convention's standards?
As a follow up to my previous post .... go to
http://erlc.com/erlc/
topics_list/
... in the left column, under the heading "Faith", click on "Pastoral Integrity" ... and see just how much resource material is available there for that topic ...
At 7:40 PM, March 15, 2007
Come, LORD Jesus! said...
Has the Southern Baptist Convention ever ousted a Southern Baptist Church due to nonadherence to the Southern Baptist Convention's standards?
junk99mail says ...
Not to my (admittedly limited) knowledge. I have known of local Baptist associations that excluded specific congregations, but that does not impact their membership in the state or national conventions. But even if the national convention did "oust" a local congregation, it would just be a symbolic gesture, since the local congregations are all independently governed. It would basically be saying to the local church, "We don't want you to send us money anymore."
junk99mail said.....
One of the existing organizations is called The Ethics & Religious Liberty Commission.
Reply:
Richard Land has been prez of ERLC since 1988.
Charlie,
Correct, and Richard Land is a good guy. I don't know if he personally has the authority to develop an office like I proposed, or if it would have to come from a vote of the messengers at a Convention meeting. But so far I don't think it has been on anyone's radar. One way BBC leadership could really make a difference throughout the convention would be to take up this issue and begin working now to bring it to the floor of this summer's annual SBC meeting in San Antonio.
Way back in 1992, there was a minister in our church who was involved in adultery. He was removed from his position, stripped of his ordination and we were told that under SBC rules, he could never serve in a ministerial position again. Although, if he repented, he could be restored to the fellowship and with guidelines, he MAY be able to serve in a lay capacity.
I wonder what happened to those rules?
Mom4,
I think the rules are more a matter of general practice than anything specifically documented or binding. Most Baptist churches would still not accept as pastor or ministerial staff someone with a known history of adultery (specifically committed while in ministry).
j99m,
Thanks, I appreciate the info. I am wondering why ANYONE would be allowed in the ministry with adultery or anything similar in their past. I know that pre-salvation sins are "under the blood", and that what Jesus cleanses is clean indeed, but I firmly believe that a minister of the gospel has to be totally above reproach in every way. That would include his history, if not, it would be a stumbling block for those that are weak, including the lost. I know that a minister is human, but I cannot help but believe that in order to be an ordained minister of the gospel of Jesus Christ, one would have to be able to present himself as an example to the world, above reproach and fully accountable in all his ways.
An elderly Friend of mine that attends a Baptist church over near Nashville was telling me that the congregation elected a deacon that had cheated on his wife, divorced her and married his girlfriend. When my friend went to the preacher, the preacher's comment was, ' well, i know it's wrong, but the people have spoken"
SOTL,
Just another example of weak leadership and ignorance of the scriptures in the congregation. The pastor should have stepped up and prevented the man's name from ever being presented for a vote. He has scriptural grounds for it. Wonder why he didn't?
This is my mental image Unchartered Waters
SOTL,
Well, at least it is apparently a "congregationally approved" church! :) Goes to show that any form of government (church or otherwise) is only as good as the character and convictions of those making the decisions.
What bothers me about that story is that apparently the pastor is more concerned with letting the people do what they want than with taking a stand for what he believes to be right. Perhaps he's afraid if he made an issue of it he'd be out of a job. Can you imagine Moses or Elijah or Elisha or Isaiah or Jeremiah or Peter or Paul saying, "Well, I know its wrong, but who would pay the bills if I get fired for saying so?"
ok, update on that story
My friend has informed me that the man is NOT married, but rather, living with the girlfriend.
Good Grief!
I don't want to get fussed at, but I do feel I need to say that I recognize that there are many different views (interpretations) on many passages of Scripture, including those that give qualifications for ministry (elders/overseers/pastors). Sometimes things that seem very clear to us only seem that way because of our own limited frame of reference, our cultural biases and assumptions.
The Holy Spirit can and does provide illumination and insight as we study Scripture, but there is a reason why some matters are considered "essentials" of the faith (the Trinity, deity of Christ, His substitutionary atonement, etc.) while others are considered "secondary matters" (Calvinism vs. Arminianism, the proper mode, meaning, and participants of baptism or the Lord's Supper, etc.). We recognize that a person can be saved (and even a very devout and holy believer) who does not agree with us on how to interpret certain passages. That said, I know that some say that a pastor or deacon must have never been divorced and remarried, because he is to be the "husband of one wife", whereas others say that passage refers only to polygamy. Likewise, some say that the phrase "above reproach" means he has never committed certain sins (e.g., adultery), while others say it refers to a consistent pattern of life over time, or even refers just to the specific matters outlined within the context of the passage. (I've been doing my own study and reflection on that for some weeks now and still have a ways to go before I feel I have a handle on it in my own feeble mind.)
If someone has the “main things” right, and is genuinely searching for the truth of God’s Word comes desires to obey His Word, I can accept that person as a beloved brother or sister in Christ, even when they come to different conclusions than I do about what the Scripture is teaching. But I am more skeptical of the genuineness of the faith of someone who claims to be a Christian and agrees with me on what the scriptures teach, but then denies that what it teaches is true (that is, they know what the Bible teaches, but they think it is mistaken and has errors in it), or denies it in practice by refusing to obey it (not just that they sin, but that they are not bothered by their sin or they refuse to repent of their sin).
(I also recognize that folks differ on what are the “main things”, but for myself all I can say is that my own list has gotten shorter over time.)
Mom
You have to wonder when a pastor doesn't step up to the plate (clearing throat here) what sins THEY are hiding. Remember Pastor Ted Haggart in Colorado. HE spoke out about homosexuality and his gay lover ratted him out.
Hmmm
Changing Gears...Been off the blog awhile...Question..The mail out from Bellevue "Special Ministry Celebrations and Congregational Annual Meeting Service" overflow seating provided in fellowship Hall...Can we get ordained there in the fellowship Hall or should we get ordained in overly crowded sancutuary?Is this the second annual special ministry celebration?Maybe I missed The Ministry victories there this past year?Will DaviD Smith be there ?will?will Bruce Brooke be there?Will Rob Mullins be there?Will Jim Whitmire Be there?Will Paul Williams be there?Will Harry pull the microphones or just cut the celebration short?Will security monitor the subject of consideration by the congregation that may be brought forth at this meeting...just food for thought... and uh do we need to bring food to this celebration to the overflow in the fellowship Hall or in front of the library or in the choir room...will we be creating more committees?Im really excited because the flyer says "this will be an exciting time as we look back and celebrate the ministry victories of this past year." Should we not look back and celebrate people coming to Jesus instead?Folks what do you see looking back this past year???MINISTRY vICTORIES OR VICTORY IN JESUS... WHATS MORE IMPORTANT....?
Charlie Fox said, "Not a youngster like yourself."
Just now getting in and saw your post. Youngster? Me? You should know my age. It was in the WSJ article if you read that. Lets just suffice it to say that we grew up on the same music. *grinning again*
Boy! Oc is really in there watching out for ya isn't he! I should have such a watchdog!
fallethntheditch wrote:
"Maybe I missed The Ministry victories there this past year?"
Not to worry. SOTL compiled a list for you:
"hmmmm, the ministry victories...let's review:
"1) SG and his 'let's lock the pastor emeritus out of his office he has had for 32 years'
2) SG and his ONE visit to see his best friend, his 'mentor' Dr. R. while he was in the hospital
3) SG and his 'I had a dream'
4) SG and his itty bitty fence
5) SG and his Union City tour
6) SG and his nonapology to Jim Whitmire
7) SG and his pedophile buddy
8) SG and his 'I want to still be your preacher' speech (complete with bill clinton-style trembling lip)
9) SG and his brilliant idea of 'I didn't know what the policy is for a pedophile on staff, so I just sent him back into the halls, unsupervised to be around children.' (By the way, the average child molestor will victimize 117 children)
10) SG and his 'let's make our head goon a minister'"
Junk: I do think you made a good point in your 10:14 post. As I get older, I realize more that ultimately the main thing is,"Is Jesus your Lord and Savior?" I think the integrity you show after making this declaration is paramount. Also, leadership in the church is held to a high standard. With regard to the roles for a pastor, for example, I always ask myself, "What would God want?" I don't mean a takeoff on the flippant WWJD craze not too long ago, yet that's kinda what I mean. I go back to 1 Cor. 14:33 " For God is not the author of confusion...." What kind of leader would God want in the pulpit? I think if we are honest with ourselves, we know the answer to this.
Boy, number 5 sounds like a band,:
"And headlining for one night only, SG And The Union City Tour! Get your tickets at Ticketmaster while supplies last!"
As a matter of fact, lots of those sound like they could be bands.
oc,
LOL, yeah, contemporary Christian music bands ... "SG and the Union City Tour" ... LOL
I just thought of this ... if some of y'all knew the kind of music at my current church (and the background of the pastor), I don't think I'd be welcome here anymore! :)
Hey, and...Nawww.. I'm not touchin' number 7!
number 7 sounds like a B movie.....
JMHO
Sad part is......well, you know.
I have a question......can regular members get something on the SBC convention list? Why couldn't we ask for a clarification of these terms and for a department to maintain the confidential records so ministers don't church jump?
OC: You've got mail. :)
concerned,
There are procedures for getting something onto the convention agenda, but I don't know what they are. If you aren't comfortable asking somone on staff at BBC how it is done, you could check with the folks at MABTS across the street.
Great idea! Thanks, junk.
concerned,
Perhaps with recent events. Dr. Spradlin would be willing to help promote such an effort. Maybe not, but it might be worth asking him about. A face to face meeting would probably be the most productive, if you could arrange it. Feel free to use anything I've written here if it helps in communicating the concept.
I appreciate that. Thanks again!
:)
Concerned,
Thanks for the mail,you got some too.
Concerned,
My pleasure. It would be wonderful if God used to turmoil at BBC and the discussions on this blog to spur something positive for the whole SBC.
OC: Back at ya!
Junk: That's exactly what needs to happen. There are so many issues that the SBC needs to take a leadership role in addressing. There needs to be some accountability somewhere, especially when it comes to the protection of our children. I understand each church is autonomous, but as part of the larger organization, it still seems to me that some guidelines could be set and enforced. After all, wayward churches negatively impact the entire SBC.
Concerned,
Even if standards can't be enforced on a local church by the national organization, they could still be set. Well, the standards are already set by scripture, but I mean they can be clearly spelled out, and some means provided to check into someone's background to see if there is any known problem. Doesn't seem like too much to ask.
I'm going to make a large leap. I've been up since 2AM. I can't sleep. Honestly, I have no axe to grind nor stones to throw. I'm acting by an inner compulsion that I can't determine whether I'm sane or sanctified. I know I'm saved. There is something on the inside that wants to get out. I could be a prophet or a "madman"
I am in a position that I don't care whether you believe me or not. I am not trying to change anyone. I'm just wanting to express myself and this forum seems to be the place to do it. Lately I'm awake this same time with renewed spiritual energy and seemingly clear spiritual immagination.
This morning I awake to the realization that the closest thing to N T Christianity (which I think wants to come out of me) maybe the black churches downtown.
In my enthusiasm for Christ a while back I patted the shuttle bus driver (total stranger) on the back and said: "Jesus is Lord and God and I'm excited about that." The next time I saw him he inquired as to why I said that and I told him that I had prayed and ask God for boldness and He wonderfully answered my prayer!
He said, "I'm a pastor of a church downtown and would you come and tell my people what you told me."
We set a date and I was one white guy in an all black church. There was a small sanctuary with an amplifier for a large church turn up high. It was crowded. Loud and joyful singing. They were Praising and shouting in black baptist style. Mothers and children going back and forth to the rest room. Teenagers crowded on the back rows. He preached a long and loud sermon. He ask me to sit on the platform with him while he preached and refered to me as "elder Page", I've never been mored honored! I had a view of the back of his pulpit stuffed with all kinds of church supplies including a used coffee cup and plate.
There are baptist, methodist and all kinds of denominations all together. The common denominator is that when you mention Jesus they all rejoice.
That maybe the closest thing to N T Christianity in Memphis. That large stately mansion with those three large lighted crosses on I-40 and Appling maybe the furtherest thing from N T Christianity there is. It could be the greatest monument to American fundamentalism with a legacy of the greatest preachers (present excepted) American fundamentalism has produced.
The major reason that blacks don't attend Bellevue (there are a few) is not a cultural or racial but a spiritual issue. When they need church they know where the Holy Spirit is. The reason whites don't go downtown to black churches is cultural and racial and they have no idea where the Spitit is at!
junk99mail
The Calvinist vs Arminianism matter is the primary issue. If we don't get it right the Holy Spitit WILL NOT provide illumination and insight as we study Scripture. Remember, the demons recognize Christ's deity. On our own in the flesh we cannot handle the truth! John 16:12-15
NBBCOF has wisely separated the discussions and though the other gets bogged down with bulky theology this discussion will remain uncharted waters if the other doesn't cause Bellevue to depart its Arminianism. It is sink or swim.
Oh yes . . there are 68 entries here and 173 over there.
In an ideal church perverted ministers would not be allowed to minister. We don't live in an ideal world but a world where the unfortunate takes place and a pedophile walks our halls. That in itself does not make our church necessarily bad but says there are bad people in our church.
In our ideal church we think that the right committee and proper resolution will solve our problems. We might even memorize all the right Scriptures to guide our committees. But in the final analysis the Holy Spirit who walks the halls also is the one who makes the church an ideal church. And if we don't recognize his authority he will just laugh at our calamity.
You have to understand that the SBC is not a denomination in the way that others like the Presbyterians and Methodists, Episcopals, etc. are. There's no hierarchy of governing authorities. Only a loose association of churches...no institution with authority over those churches. In other words no ecclesiastical courts in which to settle matters "in house", or institute policy for it's independent autonomous churches. Passing resolutions has no meaning unless the churches decide to abide by them.
"The major reason that blacks don't attend Bellevue (there are a few) is not a cultural or racial but a spiritual issue. When they need church they know where the Holy Spirit is. The reason whites don't go downtown to black churches is cultural and racial and they have no idea where the Spirit is at!" said watchinghisstory.
No disrespect intended here but that may be one of the dumbest blogs I've read. Maybe the early hours or "madness" as you said is getting to you. But to imply that white people don't know where the Holy Spirit is, is just crazy. By the way the Holy Spirit resides in us Christians not in a building called Bellevue nor a building downtown. Your implication would be the same whether it was under Dr. Rogers or under Dr. Gaines.
truth rules : mega dittoes
It would appear that watching history has " issues".
Healer heal thyself.
whs wrote:
"They were Praising and shouting in black baptist style."
"The common denominator is that when you mention Jesus they all rejoice.
And I think you summed it up in that first sentence. It's about "style." I dare say the Holy Spirit doesn't care whether the parishioners are white, black, or purple. And shouting and the raising of hands and other displays of "outward worship" are not necessarily an indication of the presence of the Holy Spirit. (Are you reading this, Jamie?)
In your example it sounds like a matter of style first. The rest is not for me to judge. Personally I find such displays distracting and even disrupting of what I think should be a solemn time of worship. I realize that others have different opinions and practices, and I'm not criticizing them for that, just saying that's not my style. I can and do rejoice on the inside!
truth rules wrote:
"By the way the Holy Spirit resides in us Christians not in a building called Bellevue nor a building downtown."
Amen.
In 1991 (when The LORD Jesus brought this 'ole girl back into His fold), He sent a wonderful and Holy Spirit-filled black woman to invite me to her Church. The minister there was white. The Church overflowed with mainly black people and they indeed treated me wonderfully. But that Church did not escape what The LORD Jesus said in His inerrant and infallible Word when He said that tares would indeed grow up with the wheat. NO Church escapes that.
Worshipping with black people is a glorious experience indeed. They are not ashamed to celebrate The LORD Jesus in their worship. God honors that, I am sure....BUT the same Holy Spirit is available to manifest in just as spectacular manner in ANY Church that will honor and praise Him for Who He is.
Tares grow heartily at black Churches, though, (just as in any other Church) as satan sows them in places of worship to The LORD Jesus. Black Churches have their problems just as ALL Churches have problems. It is not the color of the congregation that brings about The Holy Spirit's overwhelming Presence. It is worship and praise of God's beloved Son Jesus Christ that brings this about.
What black Churches have in worship is available to ALL of us as God's children. He truly doesn't care whether the songs are my beloved husband's favorite...contemporary...or the grand old hymns...or even my favorite...country gospel music. He wants only that His people PRAISE Him with all that they are for all that HE is....for He ALONE is worthy of ALL praise and glory and honor.
It comes down to this....Do we want to show God our adoration and love for Him and true appreciation for all that He has done for us by praising Him OR do we want to stand as Michal did when she peered out of the window and despised King David for dancing and praising The LORD Jesus before the ark of God as it entered the city? The Bible says that she was barren (as a judgement from God) from that day forward. Shall we withhold praise and despise those that DO praise and find ourselves left spiritually barren?
It is something to think about and pray about. Let us resolve to miss out on NOTHING that The LORD Jesus has for us in our Churches...or rather, in HIS Church.
Let us never silence the one glorifying and praising God for His Word by "amens" as Gaines did. We can see what followed after he did such a deed to a beloved Brother. God is not a play-toy and Gaines is continuing to find that out...as are his "yes men". May we never suffer the same fate. Let us HUMBLY walk before our God and Savior Jesus Christ.
We love and serve a God Who is to be reverently feared.
Guess I will head onto bed shortly, LORD Jesus willing for all things. Have a glorious Jesus Day today filled with the majesty and splendor of Him.
Bonita Ann Richie
Living Hope In Jesus
www.livinghopeinjesus.com
Any resolution passed at the SBC is less of a rule and more of a guideline (apologies to fans of Pirates of the Caribbean) for churches in the SBC since they are self-governing. In fact, fifty years ago many Southern Baptists proudly proclaimed that we were not a denomination in the truest sense because of our structure. Each of the 44,000 churches is allowed 10 messengers (delegates) to be seated at the annual convention in June. Each church is allowed one messenger for every 250.00 given to the SBC, and the limit is ten messengers per church. If a church member wants to make a resolution, he/she should contact a messenger from their church to follow through. Of the fifteen resolution made last year, number 5 seems to have struck a nerve in SBC life. It might do well for some of our "ministers" to read it:
Resolution No. 1
ON THE MARRIAGE PROTECTION AMENDMENT
Resolution No. 2
ON THE NOMINATION AND CONFIRMATION OF FEDERAL JUDGES
Resolution No. 3
ON CHINA’S TREATMENT OF NORTH KOREAN REFUGEES
Resolution No. 4
ON THE CONFLICT IN THE WESTERN SUDANESE REGION OF DARFUR
Resolution No. 5
ON ALCOHOL USE IN AMERICA
WHEREAS, Years of research confirm biblical warnings that alcohol use leads to physical, mental, and emotional damage (e.g., Proverbs 23:29-35); and
WHEREAS, Alcohol use has led to countless injuries and deaths on our nation's highways; and
WHEREAS, The breakup of families and homes can be directly and indirectly attributed to alcohol use by one or more members of a family; and
WHEREAS, The use of alcohol as a recreational beverage has been shown to lead individuals down a path of addiction to alcohol and toward the use of other kinds of drugs, both legal and illegal; and
WHEREAS, There are some religious leaders who are now advocating the consumption of alcoholic beverages based on a misinterpretation of the doctrine of "our freedom in Christ"; now, therefore, be it
RESOLVED, That the messengers to the Southern Baptist Convention meeting in Greensboro, North Carolina, June 13-14, 2006, express our total opposition to the manufacturing, advertising, distributing, and consuming of alcoholic beverages; and be it further
RESOLVED, That we urge that no one be elected to serve as a trustee or member of any entity or committee of the Southern Baptist Convention that is a user of alcoholic beverages.
RESOLVED, That we urge Southern Baptists to take an active role in supporting legislation that is intended to curb alcohol use in our communities and nation; and be it further
RESOLVED, That we urge Southern Baptists to be actively involved in educating students and adults concerning the destructive nature of alcoholic beverages; and be it finally
RESOLVED, That we commend organizations and ministries that treat alcohol-related problems from a biblical perspective and promote abstinence and encourage local churches to begin and/or support such biblically-based ministries.
Resolution No. 6
ON THE CRISIS OF ILLEGAL IMMIGRATION
Resolution No. 7
ON HUMAN SPECIES-ALTERING TECHNOLOGIES
Resolution No. 8
ON ENVIRONMENTALISM AND EVANGELICALS
Resolution No. 9
ON OFF-CAMPUS BIBLICAL INSTRUCTION
Resolution No. 10
ON ENGAGING THE DIRECTION OF THE PUBLIC SCHOOL SYSTEM
Resolution No. 11
ON BIVOCATIONAL, VOLUNTEER, AND PART-TIME MINISTERS
Resolution No. 12
ON SOUTHERN BAPTIST DISASTER RELIEF
Resolution No. 13
ON PRAYER FOR THE PRESIDENT AND THE MILITARY
Resolution No. 14
ON THE ONE HUNDREDTH ANNIVERSARY OF LIFEWAY RIDGECREST CONFERENCE CENTER
Resolution No. 15
ON APPRECIATION
Bulletin point:
President and CEO of M.O.P.S.
( Mothers of Preschool children ) endorses new book by Willow Creek mystic .
Link to full story below:
http://www.fromthelighthouse.com/blog/index.php?p=564&more=1&c=1
My 2 cents worth....(not even worth 2 cents, really!)......I had to do much soul searching on this subject of worship 10 years ago when my former church split. Our pastor stood at the pulpit and said if we did not worship in the hand-waving style, we did not have the Holy Spirit. I can not believe that to be true. I believe there is a reverence and awe one needs in approaching the Throne of God. An example of what was happening during this time is that I had a senior in high school (now a pastor) say to me, "When I get to Heaven, I'm going to give God a high five." to which I replied, "I believe when you get to Heaven you will be on your face at the feet of your Lord." How presumtuous of us to think we will give God a high five. He is our Creator and Master! I believe one of the most heartbreaking culture shifts is the loss of our fear and reverence when approaching God. He is HOLY.
I have been to different churches that worship in different styles. I have decided that this is, to a large degree, a personal decision. However, in the midst of so many casual, seeker-friendly, watered down churches, there have to be some that remain for those of us that feel our Worship needs to be reverent and respectful. Church is for the saved and we need to be able to worship without the circus.
JMHO
Bonita Ann: I loved your post of 8:49. You are so right on so many counts. Thank you for sharing.
AOG, you are right about resolutions. Those resolutions to boycott Disney World proved that the 'baptist' folks were going to do what they wanted in that regard. I knew baptist ministers who was taking their family to Disney World during the so-called boycott. Resolutions are a lot like our own New Years resolutions. Sounds good, important stuff, but they have no consequences should we break them. Well no consequences other than not losing the weight or gaining more pounds.
Don
He who is without issues let him cast the first stone.
Try to focus . . .a pedophile has been walking the halls of Bellevue for 17 years. The issue before us is how did that happen and I am posting my ideas. I do have issues and Christ is providing healing solutions. But that is not for this forum. If you are without issues my e-mail is available for you to reach out to me.
NBBCOF said...
"And I think you summed it up in that first sentence. It's about "style." I dare say the Holy Spirit doesn't care whether the parishioners are white, black, or purple. And shouting and the raising of hands and other displays of "outward worship" are not necessarily an indication of the presence of the Holy Spirit. (Are you reading this, Jamie?)"
Okay...I realize I am probably asking for it and probably am going to catch it for going here, but...
I certainly don’t have a problem with color…that isn’t a statement for me. My topic of conversation is ‘and shouting and the raising of hands and other displays of ‘outward worship’ are not necessarily an indication of the presence of the Holy Spirit.” I share with you NBBCOF in that I am more ‘reserved, perhaps subdued’…I think reverence is in maintaining a ‘spiritual’ solitude of quiet respect in the presence of God…in our worship. Now…here is what I see in my mind’s eye when I consider this topic personally. When I worship in the privacy of my home, which I do…I maintain this same quiet vigil. So, what I am saying here is that I worship the same wherever I am…be it in a church building or in my home. My question is … “those who do use the practice of ‘raising of hands and other displays of ‘outward worship’”…is this their mode of worship at home as well as in the church building, or wherever they might be? I have seen some displays on some of these televised evangelicals where I can’t help but think I am witnessing public display of bringing attention to ‘one’s self’. And I have also witnessed this is the churches of the SBC. I realize that we are different in respect to our styles of worship, but I do have a little trouble with some of the ‘styles’ I see from time to time.
Concernedsbcer...said
"I have been to different churches that worship in different styles. I have decided that this is, to a large degree, a personal decision. However, in the midst of so many casual, seeker-friendly, watered down churches, there have to be some that remain for those of us that feel our Worship needs to be reverent and respectful. Church is for the saved and we need to be able to worship without the circus."
Boy! did you summarize it up well in you post!!! Amen, amen, amen!!!
Ima
imaresister
When you go to darkest Africa as a missionary how do you teachs thoes people reverance and respect? Will they have to forgo their cultures and styles in order to conform to your idea of respect and reverance. You sound like a conformer rather than a resister.
Do you understand the extensive traing a person like you would have to go through to be a missionary.
Anyone who has experienced true worship, being in the presence of the Holy Spirit, is on their face, humbled and in awe.
I know the "praise" thing (music, clapping, swaying, etc.) is popular now, but it is no where near true worship.
watching: I think those God calls to be missionaries, He equips with the wisdom to minister and evangelize. We were talking about our personal woship.
OC: You've got mail. :)
oops...."worship"
Mom4: Amen and Amen.
whs,
No one's talking about "darkest Africa" or changing anyone's culture. We're merely discussing styles of worship. I'm just as offended by someone trying to force me to change my style of worship as someone in "darkest Africa" would be with one of us trying to change their culture.
Unless I'm mistaken, "ima" is talking about her personal style preference, and I don't see her trying to force that style on anyone else. She's also never stated she ever felt called to the foreign mission field, so that's a non-issue.
This goes back to the "transitioning" movement where people, who think they've got God's Carte Blanche to do whatever they want, come into an existing church and try to change the culture of that church. By all means, go start your own church if you think that's the way to go. Just don't hijack an existing church and force it down people's throats. Perhaps some of these poaching, Purpose-Driven-influenced "pastors" with that mindset could use some "extensive training" as well -- in sensitivity.
Watching said, “When you go to darkest Africa as a missionary how do you teachs thoes people reverance and respect? Will they have to forgo their cultures and styles in order to conform to your idea of respect and reverance. You sound like a conformer rather than a resister.
Do you understand the extensive traing a person like you would have to go through to be a missionary.”
Hello Watching History…thanks for responding to my post.
1. “When you go to darkest Africa as a missionary how do you teachs thoes people reverance and respect?”
Reply: I don’t have to give this much thought because it is not likely I will be going to darkest Africa. However, if I did…I wouldn’t even try to teach those people reverence and respect: it wouldn’t be my place to do that. God would lead me. God would lead them. He is in control…not me. I realize that aspect of my life every waking moment I have.
2. “Will they have to forgo their cultures and styles in order to conform to your idea of respect and reverence.”
Reply: Certainly not.
3. “You sound like a conformer rather than a resister.”
Reply: I am both. I conform only to Truth…and, I resist the heresy so prevalent in the church of today in stark contrast to Truth. I will stand for Jesus at all costs.
4. “Do you understand the extensive traing a person like you would have to go through to be a missionary.”
Reply: No
Question: I take it you have served as a missionary in darkest Africa.
I merely replied to a post by NBBCOF…in sharing with her our mutual worship styles. You are judging me. Why? I am not sure where you are wanting to go with this post?
concernedsbcer
And you are doing a fine job without him equipping you for personal worship? Why do missionaries need equipping and you don't?
NASS,
"Poachers" is a good word for them. I could never understand the need to hijack someone elses church until it was explained to me that they could not plant their own church with the doctrine they espouse. I am also concerned that the discussions on the previous thread have now bled over onto this one. Not all of us are bent toward those discussions and feel that they are better left on a single thread or another blog entirely. Many are reading this blog and I am wondering if we really want those discussions from non-members of Bellevue to permeate the opinions of the readers and may lead them to think that BBC may be leaning one way or the other. We are a conservative fellowship of believers in Jesus Christ. Let's leave it at that.
NBBCOF
Hahaha!!! Can you believe our posts? ROFL
Okay watching...I guess you got the message.
You did a much better job than I NBBCOF!
By the way watching...are you purpose driven? Hahaha... If you aren't...you need to be. You'd fit in well at pastors.com! ROFL!!!
whs,
I say this in kindness when I say I think you need to catch up on some of that sleep you missed last night.
I am purpose driven by the Holy Spirit, however someone from Bellevue gave me a copy of the Book about 5 or 6 years ago. I shelved it and never have opened it yet.
Watching said: And you are doing a fine job without him equipping you for personal worship? Why do missionaries need equipping and you don't?
First of all, I do not understand this post at all.
The Holy Spirit and the Word of God equips me. I do what He tells me to. He has not called me to be a missionary, except to my own family. He has called me to tasks I could not have completed without His strength. He has equiped me in my daily life.
With regard to personal reverent worship:
Hebrews 12:28 Wherefore we receiving a kingdom which cannot be moved, let us have grace, whereby we may serve God acceptably with reverence and godly fear.
Leviticus 26:2 Ye shall keep my sabbaths, and reverence my sanctuary: I am the LORD.
Psalms 89:7 God is greatly to be feared in the assembly of the saints, and to be had in reverence of all them that are about him.
Mark 12:6 Having yet therefore one son, his wellbeloved, he sent him also last unto them, saying, They will reverence my son.
ima,
I don't perceive WHS to be PD, just sleep-deprived. I know I am!
I'm not sleepy and I am wide awake
and excited about our dialogue. I love discussions like this except when people resort to ad hominen attacks.
concerned
"I do not under this post at all"
Do you want me to rephrase it so you can understand it or is it that you just don't want to understand it.
imaresistor said...
Charlie Fox said, "Not a youngster like yourself."
Just now getting in and saw your post. Youngster? Me? You should know my age. It was in the WSJ article if you read that. Lets just suffice it to say that we grew up on the same music. *grinning again*
Boy! Oc is really in there watching out for ya isn't he! I should have such a watchdog!
Reply:
Oh, I know, and have known since long before the WSJ article. Like April 2006.
oc and I are new found brothers. Don't mess with him either. LOL
Watching: No, I really don't understand. I love a good discussion too, but please leave the snide comments somewhere else.
And if I did understand you correctly, I think I answered your question.
NBBCOF
I am seriously concerned about the issues facing Bellevue Baptist Church and come here to comment and exchange ideas in a respectful Christian Spirit. I am passionate about my views and am bold to present them. I am not a poacher nor just a lurker, though I am not a member. My daughter and her family are and are ardent SG supporters.
However there are so many times that posters forget the real issue and go for the messenger rather than the message. I have to ask myself if this is indicative of the posters here how much worse is the real situation at Bellevue. If this blog crumbles because of attitude what help is there for Bellevue?
I'm going to see my granddaughter.
watching: I thought we were having a great discussion until your comment to me about "you don't want to understand." I didn't think I understood the post you made and I wanted clarification. That's all. I try to learn and grow, not ignore facts.
God will equip his Saints for their intended purpose.
whs,
Nobody called you a poacher! I requested the Calvinism vs. Arminianism discussion be confined to the thread set up for that since some people (I'm not among them) are offended by that. As for your comment, "And you are doing a fine job without him equipping you for personal worship? Why do missionaries need equipping and you don't?", I'm afraid I don't get it either. It came across as kind of smarmy, although I'm not convinced you meant it that way, but like "concerned," I didn't understand the point.
Non-members who follow the guidelines (which you have) are always welcome to join the discussion. It's been my observation that sometimes non-members can see things more clearly than those of us who are "up close and personal."
Have a nice visit!
NBBCOF,
No, I don't think he is PD either.
charlie fox said...
"Oh, I know, and have known since long before the WSJ article. Like April 2006.
oc and I are new found brothers. Don't mess with him either. LOL"
Gotcha!
"Poachers" is a good word for them. I could never understand the need to hijack someone elses church until it was explained to me that they could not plant their own church with the doctrine they espouse.
I'm a newbie here, and I've missed a lot. What doctrinal changes have been made at Bellevue?
?Do we have new trolls?
Concerned, you have mail :)
mom4 said...
"Poachers" is a good word for them. I could never understand the need to hijack someone elses church until it was explained to me that they could not plant their own church with the doctrine they espouse.
arminius said...
I'm a newbie here, and I've missed a lot. What doctrinal changes have been made at Bellevue?
to which MOM4 said...
?Do we have new trolls?
mom4,
What kind of response is that? I asked a legitimate, reasonable question and get that for an answer?
Didn't you say:
Many are reading this blog and I am wondering if we really want those discussions from non-members of Bellevue to permeate the opinions of the readers...
I wonder what the readers' opinion of this is?
?Do we have new trolls?
Is this a forum for discussion or not?
Does anyone know the address of "Mike's Blog" that I've heard about?
Hey Charlie...
email me...
I asked a simple question, didn't mean to make you mad. I apologize.
Do you mean Mike Bratton's blogspot? I don't have it, sorry.
NASS, do you have it?
ima,
You have YAHOO email.
arminius: I think the changes might not be as completely new as SG but have been highlighted because of some of the poor decisions and behavior that has been exhibited since he came. When there is someone in leadership that has great integrity, there is no reason to micromanage so the rules are different than when there is someone who seems to lack integrity. Responsibility for our actions is paramount to a mature Christian. When a leader fails to exhibit the leadership qualities listed in Timothy (to begin with) his ability to affect people on Sunday morning is diminished as well, I think.
NASS, can we post 25+ list again? That might help as well.
OC: You've got mail. :)
GO TIGERS!!!!!!
At 7:40 PM, March 15, 2007
Come, LORD Jesus! said...
A question:
Has the Southern Baptist Convention ever ousted a Southern Baptist Church due to nonadherence to the Southern Baptist Convention's standards?
response:
1970's Memphis,TN Prescott Baptist Church, now Prescott Church. See their history at:
www.prescottchurch.org/index_files/history.htm
Interesting how the disassociation is spun,er...presented. As with job actions, it begs the question; was he/she asked to resign, or was he/she fired? Even more interesting is the not so subtle reference to the SBC takeover by the "fundamentalists".
In any case the congregation decided what they wanted and that's fine. Just don't insist the rest of the denomination do the same, which they didn't. BTW I was around there during the 70's, visited when Dr. Sehested preached. I must say she was a very good preacher and was also very active and supportive of the InterFaith activities in the area. Also I know Dr.Ramsey and you'd be hard pressed to find a finer Christian servant. He is admired by his peers as a selfless counselor.
I'll bet you thought this was an Ad for them? I report; you decide.
15yr Bellevue member -- I ain't leavin' yet!
concerned,
Allow me in Nass's absence.
25+yrs@BBC said...
Here are a few important changes that would help during these days of crisis in leadership:
I. Pastoral Accountability to the Congregation:
1. A business meeting in accord with Matthew 18 to deal with the issues that remain related to Mark Sharpe and "the Dream"... and any other loose ends that should have been dealt with months ago!!
2. The giving records of the membership and the ministers on staff at Bellevue should never be for pastoral review in any shape, form, or fashion.
3. No church credit cards.
4. An admission Dr. Gaines should have never given $25k to FUMC and an explanation of policy changes to prevent a repeat.
5. A policy for open books on Holy land trips and no overcharging of members. Free tickets for the host and wife are fine but not for anybody else.
6. Full disclosure of ministerial compensation: salary + benefit breakdown, etc.
7. Timely removal from office of ministers guilty of sexual immorality with immediate and timely coordination with the appropriate authorities if any laws have been broken by a minister (no matter how long ago), including thorough investigation of the matter when the minister’s conduct may have affected other church members or their children.
II. Congregational Church governance:
Some of the congregation has awakened to the reality that our church has a set of "lay-elders," a close knit group of men who manage to be appointed to key positions year after year. The rest of the congregation needs to be awakened.
1. Those who are part of this lay-elder "power block" need to step down from positions of influence for a long time. Bellevue needs “new blood” in these key positions.
2. There needs to be the signing of a public conflict of interest form for any member that has any business contract to provide services for the church. These people should not be allowed to serve on committees that review bids for their services.
3. Congregational nomination of and election of all of the Board of Directors as called for in the 1929 bylaws.
4. A quarterly business meeting with open mike Q&A with each committee chairman. **The current bylaws mention "monthly" business meetings! When were they changed??
5. A good updated set of bylaws similar to GBC.
6. A transparent committee selection process.
7. Much greater congregational oversight of the current budget with a transparent policy for consideration of non-budgeted expenditures exceeding a reasonable amount.
8. Thorough communication with the Congregation for ANY capital project well in advance of any vote. Building prayer buildings or any other type of building should be brought through proper channels to the congregation for prayerful consideration--not coerced "rubber stamping." [By the way, Dr. Rogers taught us quite a bit about prayer. As a matter of fact, I believe all of the current buildings ARE prayer buildings already. He and Dr. Whitmire also taught us quite a bit about worship also... but that's another topic].
9. Bellevue needs to reject Warrenism fully and finally.
10. Higher standards should be put in place for the hiring of "ministers." Seminary training should be considered a normal prerequisite.
III. Treatment of ministers on staff at BBC and members:
1. A whistle blower policy for ministers, staff, and members.
2. The end of heavy handed dealing with ministers, staff, and members; and the end of signing non-disclosure statements. All ministers who have been pressured or asked to sign such non-disclosure statements should be released from them in writing by BBC! Former staff should be allowed to address the congregation and/or the deacon body either in writing or in person without any fear of reprisal regarding their exit from BBC. Gaines has confessed to mishandling Dr. Whimire's exit... The congregation now needs to hear from Dr. Whimire--and several others--by letter or in person IN THEIR OWN WORDS. The congregation needs to know how their leadership has treated and is treating ministers who leave the service of our Lord through BBC.
3. Forgiveness for those in leadership who have allowed this to deteriorate to this point--AND consequences for their actions.
All in my opinion as usual.
Charlie: Thanks!
Also, we don't need to forget the situation that occured on Sunday night and broke here on the blog Tuesday night regarding the 15 year old girl escorted out of church and handcuffed by 7-9 security men. How this is handled by the leadership, I think, is extemely important. After the complete mishandling of the PW case, this should prove to be interesting. A confessed pedophile was allowed to roam the building unchecked for 6+ months, while a 15 year old girl, approved by Gregg Hauss and Phil Newberryto be there, was handcuffed and had the police called on her. There is so much wrong with these situations, it's hard to know where to begin.
1)SG didn't know PW's job description? Maybe this was a time to find out.
2)This was "uncharted waters"? As has been proven at the top of this thread, no, it wasn't. (Or you could always read the paper regarding the similar incidents at the Catholic church- should have given sg an idea of how to pursue.)
3)The security didn't know the girl was removed from the "banned" list? WHY do we have a banned list for a church? If someone has been a problem, shadow them while they are in church. But call the police and handcuff them?
It's an integrity issue, a leadership issue. And because of that, the church's ability to minister is compromised.
As always, jmho
MOM4 said...
I have come to believe that SG thinks himself above reading any of the guidelines and recommendations set out before him. Maybe that is why he felt like he was in "uncharted waters", he never read the map.
What else would account for his lack of knowledge and reasoning skills?
2:43 PM, March 16, 2007
concerned,
you got mail:)
Mom4: How sad. All the information we need is right there; we just have to be humble enough to go get it.
At 2:25 PM, March 16, 2007 klavierfrau said...
1970's Memphis,TN Prescott Baptist Church, now Prescott Church.
junk99mail says...
Just to clarify ... Prescott was never ousted from the SBC; they chose (in 1994) to withdraw from it themselves. In the 80s the local Shelby Baptist Association "disfellowshipped" the church over its choice to have a woman pastor. But that is not the same as the national SBC removing a church, which, to my knowledge, that has never been done.
arminius wrote:
"I'm a newbie here, and I've missed a lot. What doctrinal changes have been made at Bellevue?"
Well, then, welcome! I suppose I'd start with a senior pastor not realizing that everything he needed to deal with and keep a confessed pedophile from roaming the halls of the church for 6 months was found between the covers of his Bible, and a senior pastor not realizing (or perhaps just not caring) that trespassing is against the law even if it is an "itty bitty" fence (which brings up the subject of lying).
From there I'd invite you to go back to the "Here and There" thread and read Parts 1 and 2 of "a former pastor's" comments which are linked in the topic heading.
There's handing $25,000 to a church whose pastor is actively involved in and supportive of the pro-choice and pro-gay movements.
Then you might want to go to Bellevue's website and listen to the Sunday evening sermons from 9/24 and 10/8/06, as well as the one from the evening of February 25th.
"I believe one of the most heartbreaking culture shifts is the loss of our fear and reverence when approaching God. He is HOLY."
Oh boy, Amen and Amen.
(I do not think HE is amused when someone references something as a 'God-thing'. Ever hear someone say that? I heard a pastor say that we would melt like tiny wax figurines in front of a HOLY GOD. Check out how the OT prophets handled an encounter with God. Isaiah: I am undone.)
watchinghistory,
The whole issue about those (or any) churches having the Holy Spirit cannot be confirmed by their worship. It is confirmed by their daily lives.
I know people who go to church, wave thier hands in worship and then go home and watch mud wrestling on TV.
"I take it you have served as a missionary in darkest Africa."
I have 2 cousins there now. Literally living in the bush. They are kind of busy combating witch doctors and 'hexes' using chicken feathers and goat blood, so I doubt this would be an issue.
mom4 said,
What else would account for his lack of knowledge and reasoning skills?
REPLY: A-R-R-O-G-A-N-C-E.
Concerned,
you got mail.
junk99mail wrote: "One way BBC leadership could really make a difference throughout the convention would be to take up this issue and begin working now to bring it to the floor of this summer's annual SBC meeting in San Antonio.....It would be wonderful if God used the turmoil at BBC and the discussions on this blog to spur something positive for the whole SBC."
junk99mail - You speak words of wisdom. You and others at Bellevue will be in my thoughts and prayers. I'm hoping a motion will be brought, and not a mere resolution.
Does it have to be "darkest Africa?" They have daylight over there, you know; and indoor plumbing.
Y'all make it sound like a Tarzan movie. Ha!
Hey Cakes, where have you been? We've missed you! Did you read about the latest "incident"????
OC: You've got mail
:)
(And I apologize in advance for the length)
You mean the girl? Ja.
I'm still here, just lurking in the darkest shadows of NBBCOF.
Cakes: well, jump in whenever!
Hey sweet cakes,
(((( sweet cakes)))))
Good to see you.
concerned,
you got some mail..
trollcakes, my friend,
ok, where are you when I need you?
I need info about 'deepest, darkest Africa'. Is this east or west of Memphis? Is it north or south of my intellectual reasoning? What am I talkin' about? Who cares, welcome back!!!
Well, I've never felt so loved.
Muah!
Nass, Is that a picture of the SS Minnow of Gilligan's Island? A three hour tour?
(thanks a lot...I have that stupid song in my head now)
Is SG Mr. Howell?
No, SG is Gilligan. Clueless.
OC: Mail box is full!
Cakes, Of course you are loved! Were you out on spring break?
Okay, if SG is Gilligan.....
Coombs is Skipper? Or Professor (trying to find a way out of the predicament)
Is anyone going to the budget meeting Sunday afternoon at 4:00?
Lin said...
"I have 2 cousins there now. Literally living in the bush. They are kind of busy combating witch doctors and 'hexes' using chicken feathers and goat blood, so I doubt this would be an issue."
Hey Lin... Oh well, if this is all it is, it shouldn't be such an issue for me. This is similar to what I did at my former church !!! :) :) :)
Lindon said...
"I know people who go to church, wave thier hands in worship and then go home and watch mud wrestling on TV."
Oh my word! You know 'em too?
"I know people who go to church, wave thier hands in worship and then go home and watch mud wrestling on TV."
I know it isn't me--I don't go to church.
concerned, you got mail. ;)
The weather started getting rough, The tiny ship was tossed.......Yada Yada Yada...
Concerned,
oc says you've got mail.
Just say'n.
Thanks, Cakes, for your assistance.
Lindon said...
"I do not think HE is amused when someone references something as a 'God-thing'. Ever hear someone say that?"
I am repulsed at the heresy out there today in using God's name as if we were talking about Donald Duck! I will never ever forget the first time I saw the title, "Experiencing God" on the screen...you know the Power Point. I felt such shame for those in my church that were responsible for putting that up there! I will never settle for less than giving my precious Lord the respect He deserves. Reverence has emptied itself in the churches today...and the result is jumping through the hoop entertainment, drama, loud rock music, ... in short 'the gong show' at its best! Surely folks don't think this is the way to worship God! The show going on in churches today is to entertain man, not God. Christians in awe of our Magnificent God should be on their knees...faces in the dirt worshipping Him in all His splendor. Reminds me of when Moses came down from the mountain.
"I know people who go to church, wave thier hands in worship and then go home and watch mud wrestling on TV."
Oh no! Hope that's not me! Mama, get away from the TV!
lin,
a three hour tour, a three hour tour... deal with it, all night long. :)
The ship struck ground on shore of this uncharted desert isle...with......
Ima: To be frank, I hate hearing "Awesome" get tossed around.
Hey Cakes, please tell OC mail is coming.
Thanks! :)
concernedSBCer said...
"Ima: To be frank, I hate hearing "Awesome" get tossed around."
I'm sorry I offended. To me, God is awesome. Maybe I stand corrected...don't know. Why does this offend you? Maybe there is something here I need to know that I am not aware of?
concerned wrote:
"To be frank, I hate hearing 'Awesome' get tossed around."
Wow. I understand just what you're saying. I thought maybe it was "just me." Ima, think of it like the word "gay" which used to just mean "happy." Today it has an ugly, cheap meaning. I think "awesome" has been cheapened in much the same way. I've always thought of God as "awesome." Anything less... isn't.
NBBCOF...
Sorry, guess I am just out of the loop on this one. But I am gay you tried to clear it up for me.
Ima
Ima: I'm sorry, that did sound confusing. The way you used awesome was correct. I agree with Nass; I hate the way it's thrown around now...
"The shirt is awesome"
"My paper was awesome"
"That room is awesome"
That's what I was talking about.
lin wrote:
"Nass, Is that a picture of the SS Minnow of Gilligan's Island? A three hour tour?"
I wondered how long it was going to take someone to notice that.
"The ship set ground on the shore of this uncharted desert isle...."
You get the idea....
ima wrote:
"But I am gay you tried to clear it up for me."
Uh... okay.
Concerned,
You are AWESOME! :)
I don't think "oc" gets it.
1. God is awesome.
2. "Concerned" isn't God.
3. Therefore, "concerned" isn't awesome which I'm sure she'll be the first to tell you!
4. "Concerned" is great though! :-)
Concerned and NBBCOF...
No problem.
Concerned...I really am out of the loop. My teens are grown now. But I get the jest of what you are saying. :)
NBBCOF.."Ima, think of it like the word "gay" which used to just mean "happy.""
When I said, ""But I am gay you tried to clear it up for me.""...Just used gay instead of happy. Just funning you.
Goodness...I probably should turn in for the night! This is getting too complicated!
ima wrote:
"Just funning you."
I know. :-)
"Goodness...I probably should turn in for the night!"
As should I. G'night!
I don't think "oc" gets it.
Hey, at least I didn't call concerned 'gay'. What???...
g'night NBBCOF...
g'night concernedsbcer...
g'night oc...
Boy, wasn't that awesomely gay?
Night, Ima.
Goodnight, John Boy....
NBBCOF said...
2. "Concerned" isn't God.
reply: But God is concerned.
Now what, smartie pants?
Boy, I guess I am tired. sorry.
Goodnight!
I have lived in Europe for 13 years not as a missionary but as a civilian pastor of a denominational ministry to the military. I did not live in darkest Africa but I did live for five years in Turkey and lived in the midst of the Turkish population while ministering to American servicemen at Incirlik Air Base in Adana, about 30 miles from Tarsus. I did become involved with a group of dedicated American and European missionaries working all over Turkey discreetly. Many had been jailed and had endured hardships. Last I heard many are still there, embedded like terrorist cells working quietly in
hopes of winning souls for Christ. That had a deep impact on my life and with the exposure of good Muslim people their food and hospitality it deepened my appreciation of cultures and traditions and the reasons that we are the "Ugly American" and why the world sees us that way. When my mother-in-law was dying of cancer we moved back home and I was appointed the pastorate of a small church in a suburb of Chicago. I have joked about being able to adjust to all kinds of cultures in many countries but the hardest culture was the country of Chicago. The people in this small church were Tennessee and Kentucky transplants who years earlier had left struggling economies to make a fortune in Chicago and then retire back home. They seemed to hate Chicago and the natives of Chicago and their church was their little world. Their greed and self-centeredness made them hard and judgemental Christians. "Bless me and my family and I don't care about anyone else." A year with thoes people and I was ready and eager to move back to Europe.
So I have a big issue with American arrogance and that which makes us the ugly Americans we are. And while I am a died in the wool conservative republican who thinks Bush is doing a great job as a president (great as compared to others) we are ugly americans over in Iraq doing it "Our Way". We are winning one war and loosing another. We have overcome many political obstacles thru military strength but we have never overcome the war against our own uglyness. As American it will always be the other man is wrong and we are right. Whether it is politics or religion. So several months ago I earnestly prayed to God, please show me what is wrong with American fundamentalism. So this morning my eyes opened as the digital lights flashed 1:59 and I watched it change to 2:00 AM. "Lord, why me, please I don't want to go back to that computer. I hate that thing. I want my sleep." I am lying in bed with my heart pounding and pulse racing.
Jesus is talking to the woman at the well. He said, "Woman, believe me, the hour cometh, when ye shall neither in this mountain, nor yet at Jerusalem, worship the Father.
Ye worship ye know not what; we know what we worship: for salvation is of the Jews. But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father SEEKETH such to worship him."
Like the disciples, we don't discuss our own pride problems. We dare not ask Jesus why is he even talking to the Samaritan woman. We know deep inside of us the truth, incidently the same place where living water springs forth is the place where pride hideth concealed, hindering the release of the flow of the waters of everlasting life.
Yesterday I witnessed the raising of that same uglyness in many of your post. That uglyness has infiltrated Bellevue and mudded the waters that want to spring forth.
I'm going back to bed!
watching: I admire your service around the world and can appreciate the broad base of your experiences. I have re-read the posts from yesterday and really can't see the pride or ugliness you spoke of. There are many ways to worship and since God made each of us individually, and knit us together in our mother's womb, He made us who we are. Do I think emotional worship is wrong? Not at all. I don't think any kind of worship is "wrong," as long as it is sincere and worships our Heavenly Father. And that does include the reverent style of worship. Reverent and traditional worshippers need a place to worship too. I can't tell you how often many of us have been told we aren't Christians, or we aren't filled with the Holy Spirit UNLESS we worship in a loud, emotional way. That's not right, no more than it would be right for me to force people in deep dark Africa to worship like me. I think Ima made a good point, though, yesterday about personal worship vs. corporate worship. Is some worship done in public for show? Not for me to judge; only God can do that. However, if their Sunday actions and their Friday actions don't add up, I think there's a problem.
We all come here with a desire to help BBC work its way through a myriad of issues facing her right now. I think it all boils down to a lack of knowledge and obedience to the Word of God. The worship style differences are miniscule compared to the meaning behind them. Because if the shepherd were taking care of his sheep, doing the best thing for BBC, he would not be changing a culture that was working for BBC. As my daddy used to say, "If it ain't broke, don't fix it." I'm sure there are areas that could stand some adjustments, but the entire system wasn't broken and certainly didn't need a complete overhaul, imho.
SG has shown a lack of good judgment on almost every issue he has faced since coming to BBC. Many of these issues are addressed in scripture, so it can lead us to a conclusion that is not flattering. Either SG does not know scripture, or he is not humble enough to seek it. Either way it is a problem. Example of lack of leadership: a confessed pedophile is allowed to roam the halls for 6+ months, while a repentant 15 year old girl in worship service is handcuffed.
Culture Crashing
Culture crashing occurs when a pastor (or any other staff mem-
ber accepts a position in a church with an established culture, then
tries to radically change the culture. This is primarily seen in efforts
to make old churches young, traditional churches contemporary, or
worship services "seeker friendly." The intent to draw sinners, not
saints, to God is good but should not be at the expense of an exist-
ing culture, unless, of course, the church is dying and in desperate
need of some kind of change to become effective again.
You have every right to develop any cultural church style you want, provided you start your own church. But, when you crash an estab-
lished church, you seriously violate Christ, ripping the garments of
his bride. That's sin. Here's why. First, it is a moral violation to crash
a culture. Missionaries have learned the hard way that their job is to
take the gospel into a culture, not change the culture. If ethics demand
that foreign cultures remain intact, then the same ethics demand
that an established culture in any church be honored. Second, it's egotistical immaturity to tear down a culture just because you didn't
help to build it. Third, it's downright stealing to take a salary under
the guise of pastoring a certain culture, then violate and trash it.
Your work is to root out sin, not destroy culture. It is ruthless igno-rance to pound people with guilt for clinging to a thirty-to fifty-year
pattern of life instead of supporting your desire to dress, sing, and
worship differently. You must honor the culture in which they
learned to follow the Lord Jesus Christ.
Firestorm
by Ron Susek (Pg. 97)
Published by Baker Books 1999
CAN ANYONE ANSWER THIS QUESTION, PLEASE?
SITUATION:
A Church, according to its denomination and The Church's creed (statement) of beliefs, decries abortion and homosexuality. This same
Church professes to support Christian missions, Christian projects, etc., etc., etc., with the monies that people give this Church to do The LORD Jesus' work.
As a result, people have given The LORD Jesus' tithes and offerings to this Church to be used for The LORD Jesus' Work ("His Work" defined as that which is in accordance to The Word of The Living God Jesus Christ, of which this Church professes to believe and practice.)
This same Church, without the knowledge and approval of the congregation, has taken 25,000 dollars of The LORD Jesus' money and has given it to a "church" that supports abortion rights and supports homosexual rights. This, of course, constituting misuse of funds.
QUESTION:
What legal recourse do the people have that were giving The LORD Jesus' tithes and offerings to this Church during the time period that this blasphemous gift was given to the pro-abortion and pro-homosexual "church"? (Noting, of course, that the same Church calls itself a corporation and also noting that corporations are held legally accountable for their use and misuse of other people's monies. Example: Enron.)
Stephen and Bonita Ann Richie
Living Hope In Jesus
www.livinghopeinjesus.com
Charlie: Great post! EXACTLY!
Alright,watching,
I am sick of the "ugly American" tag. Yeah, if I were a Turk, I would be jealous of a country who has been in existence for a little more than 200 yrs and has achieved much more than Turkey has in a couple thousand years. We're advanced and they are retarded. Deal with it.
Even though you throw out your 'pedigree' of being a missionary, you speak like a liberal wacko, 'America sucks, we need to look better. We are ugly.' Yeah, 'ugly American', guess what? There are those poor people in Iraq who are so thankful we are there, building schools and hospitals, feeding people, educating people(even women), giving them the right to vote on their leaders (even women). Giving medical help never even considered by the 'beautiful' country of Iraq.
Nowwhat? God bless America. My son in law, admittedly not as as missionary, but serving at the request of the United States of America, says you are wrong,we're not as 'ugly' as you and the snotty Europeans say we are.
Yeah, I'm going to say this,although not 'PC'. You want to bash this country, you can go north or south, there are borders you can run to in order to escape 'ugly America'.
Please take advantage of 'ugly America's' silly freedom thing, and excuse yourself from 'ugly America'.
You say,
God, please show me what is wrong with American fundamentalism.
Why did't you pray to see what's right? Liberal, anti- American poop. Pretty arrogant to think that God would tell only you how to 'fix' fundamentalism. Maybe you need fixin'. Ever consider that?
And this,
"Lord, why me, please I don't want to go back to that computer. I hate that thing.
Yeah,right. God forced you to the computer to right all wrongs with America and fundamentalism. Boy. Ain't you imporant. And you have the nerve to talk against arrogance. Hmmm...
You said,
Yesterday I witnessed the raising of that same uglyness in many of your post.
Can't say silly things around here without being confronted. Go figure. And of course, if no one agrees with you, much like Europe you conclude Americans to be ugly.
Go figure again.
As a matter of fact, you have the great option provided by the blood of many 'ugly Americans' to do just that, go figure somewhere else. Tired of your whining. Go ahead, go back to bed... in Mexico.
What is a CULT Leader
1) Does the person say, "Never question me?"
2) Does the person say, "What ever I say just do it?"
3) Does the person say, "If I tell you to do something and you do not do it then you are not humble?"
4) Does the person try to embarrass people who do not do exactly what he wants?
5) Does the person contradict themselves allot?
6) Does the person make promises and then reneges on those promises at later point in time?
7) Does he say that he is responsible to God but behaves in a manner that he is accountable to no one?
8) Does he provoke and intimidate to get people to do what he wants?
9) Does he have to flatter people to get people to look over what he does wrong against people?
10) Does he behave as though he is the mouth piece for God? The Bible gives plain warnings about adding and taking away from the Bible.
11) Does he behave and talk like he is the Holy Spirit?
12) Does he behave like he does not care what people think and behaves like he does not respect people’s convictions?
13 Does he demand respect instead of trying to earn respect? Cult leaders have very little patience and expect everyone to serve them. Cult leaders have very little time for people only for their own aims.
14) Does he seem to have a pre-occupation with preaching at the congregation to give him more respect.
15) Does he wear a phony cheesy grin all the time, and acts like everything is all right all the time when things are falling apart in your church. This means he does not know how to handle problems that he has probably caused so he try's to overlook them thinking they will all just go away.
16) Is he always trying to make himself look good in front of the congregation?
oc,
I've got your back covered!!!! LOL
OC,
We may not want to think of ourselves as "ugly Americans" but if we are truly Holy Spirit-filled and Bible-believing Christians living in the U.S., then we of all people know that we are living in a spiritual Babylon. The U.S. is the top exporter of pornography, ungodly movies, ungodly music, ungodly books, etc., etc., etc. The list is endless. Most of our Churches are so dog-gone lukewarm and compromising to the point that one cannot distinguish their members from the world. (Even the ungodly pagans in the world know this and laugh at it...as does satan himself!!!)
This nation is a spiritual whore against The Living God Almighty and His Son Jesus Christ. May The LORD Jesus hasten the day of The Rapture when He will His Bride out of this evil place.
Stephen and Bonita Ann Richie
Living Hope In Jesus
www.livinghopeinjesus.com
Come,Lord Jesus.
Yeah, there are things wrong with America. No doubt. But go somewhere else if need be. If there is a better country, then name it. Then move there. And call America a whore while enjoying the benefits given you by those who died for it. No, Jesus wouldn't approve that. Maybe He would tell you to leave the country and wander for 40 years in the wilderness.
Ray Saba has a great letter on SavingBellevue....What do we have to Celebrate at BBC for the year 2006 that calls for a Celebration Sunday. A lot of broken hearts..
OC,
Hebrews 11:16 "But now they desire a better country, that is, an heavenly: wherefore God is not ashamed to be called their God: for He hath prepared for them a city.
Hebrews 13:14 "For here have we no continuing city, but we seek one to come."
Patriotism does not equate with Christianity. If it did so, Jesus would have taught undying patriotism to Rome. He nor His disciples would have ever spread the Christianity that ultimately destroyed the ungodly pagan idol-worshipping homosexual-loving and sexual immorality-loving Roman Empire.
You can believe this or choose not to believe this but this nation on earth called the U.S. is going to fall just as the Roman Empire did and it is for this reason that one finds no reference to the U.S. as the world power in Biblical prophecy. If you have a problem with this, you need not try to blast us on this blog. Take your blast to The LORD Jesus and see how HE reacts to your carnal temper fits. You have written evil and ugly things to a sincere Brother in The LORD Jesus this morning (WatchingHIStory) and you are no better than the rest of us that have to go to The LORD Jesus to repent of such things.
As for us, the administrator of this blog sent us an email INVITING us to return to the blog and here we are going to stay until The LORD Jesus says otherwise.
Write to us what you choose but WE choose to ignore such evil carnal outbursts from you towards us. We will not address your carnality again. We love you, Brother, but this is ungodly behavior and it is bringing shame upon this blog which is supposed to be a place of honoring our LORD and Savior Jesus Christ. Fix you some coffee, relax, read some Scriptures, pray and then you will once again feel refreshed and relaxed.
In the meantime, we are still hoping that there is someone who can answer our question we posted earlier this morning.
Stephen and Bonita Ann Richie
Living Hope In Jesus
www.livinghopeinjesus.com
I guess I'm a little confused, again! Why is the state of "the church" the "ugly American fundamentalist” fault? Yes, America was founded by Christians based on Christian principles and I pray we return to those principles. Our country as a whole has strayed far from our beginnings but there is still a strong remnant so all is not lost yet.
I agree with OC: Many in the world have much to be grateful for when America lends a helping hand. No, America is not perfect, but it's still the best there is, IMHO. To quote the gifted Christian comedian Brad Stine (and if you've never heard him, check out his first DVD "Put a Helmet On") “if there are more people trying to get in than trying to get out, it's a good country!” I have only been out of the country twice and I'll be honest, I was ready to get back to the good ole' USA. Many countries couldn't have a blog like this to debate freely. These freedoms have been bought and paid for by American blood and we need to remember that.
However, let's not confuse American with Christian. There are Christians in every part of the world. America just puts feet to our Christian principles.
Thanks for the post, Concerned.
We have Sky Angel satelite and we do not watch secular t.v. unless there is an occasional football or basketball game that simply "has" to be watched by a certain someone in our home. :) We used to listen to Bellevue's t.v. program on Sunday mornings at 8 a.m. but it is hard to listen to Gaines now. As a result, we do not even know of the man of whom you speak.
We work at night so it is definitely bedtime for us.
May this day be a blessed one in The LORD Jesus for all of His children.
Stephen and Bonita Ann Richie
Living Hope In Jesus
www.livinghopeinjesus.com
I'm going to jump in here and say something to everyone. The discussion has drifted onto a topic that's a hot, push-button issue for many. I can see valid arguments on both sides of the debate, although I lean more towards the "love it or leave it" camp. However, it really doesn't matter because that's not the purpose of this forum. Please, everyone, let's either return to the subject of the topic or change topics, but first go to your respective corners and cool off a while. These types of discussions are distracting from the real reason this forum exists.
Thank you,
NBBCOF
(Let me make sure I've got my flack jacket fastened before I post.)
concerned,
If I'm not mistaken, you're confusing terms. The 'fundamentalism' that WHS is berating is 'Fundamentalist Christianity' which has greatly influenced the American protestant church. The movement started around 1900, but changed direction around 1920. If you read a little about it you'll see some of the issues that have been mentioned.
WHS is not belittling the United States government. Our country was founded firmly on biblical principles, which is why God has blessed us so.
The ever wise NASS has spoken!!! Back on topic. Reference my earlier 2 posts on Culture Crashing and A Cult Leader.
Yes we do need to get back on topic and yes the Ray Saba letter is on topic. Maybe Nass can link it. I don't know how...DUHHHH
Very good thoughts......What do we have to Celebrate????
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