Wednesday, March 07, 2007

Here and There

A Tale of Two Cities by Don Boys.

Comments by "a former pastor":


Part 1

Part 2

The Ramifications of the Corporate Mindset in the Church

The Cult of "Do Not Judge"

457 comments:

1 – 200 of 457   Newer›   Newest»
Trollcakes said...

I'm on top, I'm on top. TeHe

New BBC Open Forum said...

cakes,

Congratulations!

Lindon said...

http://christianresearchnetwork.com/?p=773

Nightline expose on Rick Warren and PDL...ought to be interesting...the media loves this guy.

New BBC Open Forum said...

ABC News Nightline tonight at 10:30 on Channel 24.

WatchingHISstory said...

junk99mail
1217 AM Mar 7
If Bellevue won't release any information we can still figure it out. (ex. no. of empty seats or no. of occupied seats, depends on size of crowd)
One mega church counted the amount of starbucks coffee served to determine the size.
You could count the no. of cars in the parking lot sports cars x 1; BMW, MB, etc x 2; SUV x 4; clunkers or hoopties x 8
Or no. of lawyers x no. of billing hours x $800 at say 5% of the budget (Lawyers at Bellevue would be offended if they got less than the church gave to the Tennessee Baptist Association - less than 3%). How many tithers would it take to support such a church?

solomon said...

???

koragg, watchinghisstory,

I don't understand your posts. Should I pray for more wisdom, or could you explain what you mean?

S

New BBC Open Forum said...

whs,

Depends on the depth of the pockets of the tithers, I'd think. But that's already being checked, isn't it?

WatchingHISstory said...

solomon

pray more

sickofthelies said...

Does anyone know what SG spoke about tonight at exit 15?

allofgrace said...

Just read the article on the ABC website...classic pragmatic thought...so what if some churches divide?..ends justify means....these guys have lost their way.

Koragg said...

"Warren said that if some churches may suffer as a result of applying some of those principles, then "that's the price."

"Every church has to make the decision. … Is it going to live for itself, or is it going to live for the world that Jesus died for?"

When asked if he thinks that some of these splits are actually because Christians themselves are indulgent and refusing to change, Warren said, "Oh, without a doubt."

And when asked if he blames them, he replied, "I do blame them.""




That section right there really offends me. Its basically saying "If you don't like it, go somewhere else, we don't need or want you here".

socwork said...

A reminder for everyone:

The level of hostility seems to be intensifying on this blog, especially in the past few weeks by some posters. I figured we could all stand to take a minute and be reminded of the following:

1 Peter 3:8-9
8 Finally, all of you, have unity of mind, sympathy, brotherly love, a tender heart, and a humble mind. 9 Do not repay evil for evil or reviling for reviling, but on the contrary, bless, for to this you were called, that you may obtain a blessing.

In other words, watch your tone, attitude, etc. We don't have to agree on these issues (which clearly, we don't), but that does not give us permission to be condescending or nasty to another person, regardless of whether or not they are our "brother/sister."

Take the high road, everyone. (Not the haughty one).

My two cents...

Piglet said...

Warren said:

"Every church has to make the decision. … Is it going to live for itself, or is it going to live for the world that Jesus died for?"

Piglet says:

Anybody else notice the two choices here?

I think there needs to be a third.
How about living for the Jesus that died for the world?

I don't think living "for the world" is the mark of a Christian.....

Maybe he just got tongue tied(?) :/

Rob Ayers said...

I appreciate your linking my post from December to your site, yet sadly that you believe it concurs with your situation. My prayers are with Bellevue Baptist Church during this time of trial.

Rob Ayers

socwork said...

piglet, that's exactly what I thought when I read that at work today :)

Piglet said...

AOG said

Just read the article on the ABC website...classic pragmatic thought...so what if some churches divide?..ends justify means....these guys have lost their way.

Piglet says:

I'm not sure that the ends are even scriptural. Help me out here..

Isn't the church FOR the saved who then GO OUT into the world as a witness?

It appears that the mature Christians are being thrown overboard to make room in the boat for the lost...seems backward to me.

Are there going to be churches for the lost and churches for the saved? He says there will be all kinds of churches.....Sounds bizarre.

New BBC Open Forum said...

rob ayers wrote:

"I appreciate your linking my post from December to your site, yet sadly that you believe it concurs with your situation. My prayers are with Bellevue Baptist Church during this time of trial."

Uh, were you not making the case yourself when you defined "crisis of mode" and then wrote this?

"One of the flagship churches of the SBC, Bellevue Baptist Church of Memphis Tennessee, home of a beloved saint of the faith Dr. Adrian Rogers is now also going through a "crisis of mode." I do not know the particulars, and so I hesitate to make comment. Yet it seems the same 'ole thing I have seen over and over again."

New BBC Open Forum said...

piglet wrote:

"Warren said:

"Every church has to make the decision. … Is it going to live for itself, or is it going to live for the world that Jesus died for?"

Piglet says:

"How about living for the Jesus that died for the world?

"I don't think living 'for the world' is the mark of a Christian....."


Out of the mouths of little pink piglets. Amen!

Rob Ayers said...

Dear Forum,

You misunderstood me my friend.. Let me restate. I am not disagreeing with you. It is sad that you are forced to concur with me. I am sad and grieved that what I have written you are living – and you should never have been forced to. My tears of grief are mingled in my prayers on your behalf, as well as my fellow spiritual kin who are suffering with you.

God bless.

Rob

New BBC Open Forum said...

Thank you for clarifying, Rob. It is sad so many churches have reached this state. Thank you for your prayers.

Koragg said...

If following the word of God is considered indulgent then I am guilty as charged. I'm sorry, but after watching that interview....my opinion of Rick Warren is that he's a barking moonbat. Liberalism has infected the church folks.

Piglet said...

koragg

Welcome to the clique. :)

socwork said...

I missed the interview - was it the same as the article posted on ABC News today?

Piglet said...

socwork

Yes, it was exactly the same so you didn't miss much.


Goodnight all!

junk99mail said...

SOTL,
You are on my heart tonight. I have been hearing (reading) your frustration with recent circumstances, events, and experiences. I can understand how all this can lead you to being disillusioned with "church" in general. I'm concerned about the effect that all this has been having on you. I am sure you have your happy and pleasant times, with family and loving friends, and that not all is dark and discouraging for you all the time. But I’m also sure you have had more than enough hassles of late from all this “stuff”. Just know that God loves you deeply and that many people care for you. No one could possibly want as much good for you as our Father, who in His inscrutable wisdom has allowed all this to come to pass, and who can be trusted to work good from evil, and His holiness in your life from trials. You are part of the church that He loves, that Jesus bled and died for, and that will one day be presented as His pure and spotless bride. Please do not allow the sinfulness that plagues all of us to keep you from the fellowship and service with His people that He has planned for you. And please do not allow the father of lies (the lies that you are so sick of) to have any victory by so discouraging you as to keep you from being and doing anything that our Father wants. I’m not saying you should place yourself into any situation that is too painful or hurtful for you to bear at this time … only encouraging you to look for opportunities to stay connected to the family of God (wherever that make take you), both for your own sake and for the sake of the rest of His children.
Blessings,
“junk”

socwork said...

Thanks little piggy :)

Trollcakes said...

I love the church lady, NASS. I just knew Bratton reminded me of someone!

Bepatient said...

'Jesus' is alive and well in Houston?

New BBC Open Forum said...

"But he does draw the line: no drugs, and he says no getting drunk."

Well, at least he's got some principles.

all2jesus said...

My tent is plundered,
And all my cords are broken;
My children have gone from me,
And they are no more.
There is no one to pitch my tent anymore,
Or set up my curtains.

For the shepherds have become dull-hearted,
And have not sought the LORD;
Therefore they shall not prosper,
And all their flocks shall be scattered.

Behold, the noise of the report has come,
And a great commotion out of the north country,
To make the cities of Judah desolate, a den of jackals.
Jeremiah 10:20-22

concernedSBCer said...

A response to the article linked by BePatient (unbelieveable, huh?)

Matthew 24
3 Now as He sat on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to him privately, saying, "Tell us, when will these things be? And what will be the sign of Your coming, and of the end of the age?"
4 And Jesus spake and said to them: "Take heed that no one deceives you.
5 "For many will come in my name saying 'I am the Christ' and will deceive many.

WatchingHISstory said...

piglet

I was up this morning at 3AM (couldn't sleep) I was debating in my mind the very issue you addressed at 10:19 last night.
You said, "Isn't the church for the saved who then go out into the world as a witness"
Yes we have it backwards!

concernedSBCer said...

Piglet and watching: Exactly! I believe the whole idea of "drawing them in" is because we've been too lazy to "go out." jmho

concernedSBCer said...

socwork: please email me (no, it's not about oc's car!!! ;) )

WatchingHISstory said...

are we lazy or not properly equipped?

WatchingHISstory said...

being equipped is not training to bring them to the evangelist so he can lead them to a decision, but for us to be the evangelist and bring our convert to the Church for equipping and edification. Seems maybe the evangelist at church does not want us to know that. Job security!

concernedSBCer said...

Watching: excellent point! I do, however, feel incompetant and I guess that's silly. Every one of us knows what Jesus has done for us and we all know the way of salvation....maybe we make it seem too hard? (just pondering outloud)

concernedSBCer said...

However, I do think the reason so many are being deceived all goes back to the watering down of the Word. People (in a general sense) no longer search and study; they want it to be easily fed to them which makes them ripe for being deceived. And maybe that goes back to being lazy or not committed to study on their own?

sickofthelies said...

Junk,

Thank you so very much for your sweet words.

I know you are right. I'm sure that these feelings will pass.

I have just been so disappointed in the way that "Christians" have treated not only me, but others, too. The betrayal has cut like a knife. I just know that I cannot sit in the same pews with people like that and worship in the right spirit.

I'll work it out. But I do appreciate your encouraging words and I do covet your prayers.

:)

sickofthelies said...

BePatient,

' De Jesus of Houston' is laughing all the way to the bank, don't you think? :)

WatchingHISstory said...

God is looking for simple witnesses not theologians. EE leaves the impression that you have to be a theologian.
I've spent the last year just walking up to anyone and simply say, "do you mind if I tell you something? Jesus is Lord and God and I am excited about that." I've repeated that phrase over 500 times to people since Jan 06 and the Holy Spirit takes over from there. It has opened the door to set down with about 20 people for a two or more hour conversation. I don't look to results I just am obedient to tell. The greatest result is that it has changed me!

sickofthelies said...

WatchingHISstory said...
God is looking for simple witnesses not theologians. EE leaves the impression that you have to be a theologian.
I've spent the last year just walking up to anyone and simply say, "do you mind if I tell you something? Jesus is Lord and God and I am excited about that." I've repeated that phrase over 500 times to people since Jan 06 and the Holy Spirit takes over from there. It has opened the door to set down with about 20 people for a two or more hour conversation. I don't look to results I just am obedient to tell. The greatest result is that it has changed me!

7:59 AM, March 08, 2007


SOTL says:

A W E S O M E!!!!!!!

DON said...

The false prophet appears on Nightline:

The nations attention was again hijacked last night by the appearance of that jolly ol elf, Rick Warren.

In yet another display of unholy doublespeak and satanic lies..,,,Rick went on to blurt out this little lie from the caverns of hell.

" "Every church has to make the decision. … Is it going to live for itself, or is it going to live for the world that Jesus died for?"

Re-Read that statement Christian ...

In that satanic twist of words and meanings,...Rick has sought to pull the satanic wool over all of Christs foloowers...

Jesus Christ warned that those who LOVE the WORLD , are enemies of The Father, and that if we Love the WORLD, the LOVE of THE FATHER is not in us.

But..you say...Isnt Rick just saying we need to " care " about the unsaved?

No ..he is not.

The entire Purpose Driven Satanic attack upon the Church...is an enticement to abandon Sound Doctrine , Holiness , Purity of Devotion to The Lord and His commands , allegianc eto The Lord Jesus Christ alone ( Warren endorses loyalty oaths to men ) ;
use of Rock Music, hip hop, film, drama , and anything else that the Christ hating orld has found to be " exciting or sensually attractive " , is now considered to be a suitable enhancement and an unholy replacement for the rich history of worship and Biblical faith and practice of all of our forefathers.
The Church is under Satanic assault , and we have Rick Warren using the death of Jesus in a " manipulative " measure to entice Christians to do the very thing that Our crucified LORD commanded us NEVER to do.

Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm


who do you suppose is the catalyst behind that Catch -22 propoganda enticement Christian ?

Welcome to the false prophets on Prime time .

It is never a sign of our devotion to Jesus , nor our gratefulness for His death on the Cross...to become an enemiy of The Father through disobedience..

Mr. Warren..

you sir..are a liar...

The Lord rebuke you

Lwood said...

DON said use of Rock Music, hip hop, film, drama , and anything else that the Christ hating orld has found to be " exciting or sensually attractive " , is now considered to be a suitable enhancement and an unholy replacement for the rich history of worship and Biblical faith and practice of all of our forefathers.

Folks were any of you at the 9:30 service Sunday morning when we were asked to sit down to watch the video....Just wondering what some of you thought of it???

MOM4 said...

In relation to Warrenism, one of the chiefest complaints I have heard from those who were engulfed by this methodology (not theology!), was that while there is a call for committment to the church (not necessarily Jesus)and works, there is no biblical dicipleship of the converts to Warrenism. There is plenty of entertainment and "exercises" in the faith, but no discernment and dicipleship to teach them the way to live other than to live "above the level" of previous Christians. One would think that the driving away of the older saints (which is promoted in the PDL, PDC, CGM and the Warren World P.E.A.C.E plan), that with them goes their years of experience and knowledge gained by their walk with the Lord. There is an effort to silence the "hoary heads" of the older, wiser Christians. How can this be scriptural?
I wonder how the seniors at Bellevue like this plan?

Piglet said...

be patient

This guy in Houston needs a vocabulary lesson if he thinks he's Christ AND anti-christ.

His type don't surprise me but a MILLION followers?!!

Wonder if he'll start a website....

DON said...

Amen Mom4

The "god of this world " ( Satan ) ..is the architect behind the Purpose Driven model..

Just a simple look at the Bible and its' admonitions to the young to repect and honor your elders...

and

The admonition for " older women " to instruct the young...is being slain on the altar of Satanic Purpose..

If the devil came in wearing red silks and a pitchfork, ...he could do no worse than a chubby guy with a goat-tee and mass media following does, using Christian terminology,,,but twisting the meanings of words and Scripture, and seducing Christians to follow in Warrens unholy paths.Bellevue needs to jettison all of the purposedriven rat poison from its' feeding trays.

And they also need to tell the membership just why they are NOT purpose Driven..but they are seeking to be HOLY SPIRIT LED..only.

Maranatha

DON said...

Churches are Opening the Door to Antichrist

Through Outcomes Based Religion
( Purpose Driven )

Link to article

http://cuttingedge.org/news/n1506index.html

sickofthelies said...

Someone asked about the video that was shown in the 9:30 service. Of course, I wasn't there, but I did just pull it up online to see what it was about. It was about " Disciple Now" weekend.

I vowed last year, after a deacon's kid called my son a racial slur ALL WEEKEND, that he would NEVER go back. No one attempted to stop the kid. After all, his dad carried weight in the church and they did not want to risk loosing favor with the BBC millionaires club.

Proverbs 12:22 said...

Lotta links for lovers of the Lord

What Happens When Churches Go Purpose Driven

State of the Church

True Christian Music

Music and Worship Today

State of the Church

Is Your Church Going Purpose Driven

Christian Worship

To Judge or Not to Judge

keynoteseeker said...

“I am sorry.” Easy words to say; It’s another thing to mean them. How do you know if a person who has hurt you is really sorry? This is hard to answer in cases involving repeated offenses.

A disingenuous and unrepentant offender will resent your desire to confirm the genuineness of his confession and repentance. He may resort to lines of manipulation. “I guess you can’t find it in yourself to be forgiving.” “You just want to rub it in my face.” “I guess I should expect that you want your revenge.” “Some Christian you are, I thought Christians believed in love and compassion.” These lines reveal an unrepentant attitude.

Don’t be manipulated into avoiding the step of confirming the authenticity of your offender’s confession and repentance. Use the seven signs below carefully and with much prayer. It is also recommended (in difficult cases) to seek the help of a wise counselor. You must be as certain as you can of your offender’s repentance—especially in cases involving repeated offenses. It is hard to genuinely restore a broken relationship when the offender is unclear about his confession and repentance.


Remember, even God will not grant forgiveness to one who is insincere about his confession and repentance. The person who is unwilling to forsake his sin will not find forgiveness with God (Proverbs 28:13).Of course, only God can read hearts– we must evaluate actions. Jesus said, “By their fruit you will recognize them” (Matthew 7:16a). We must not allow superficial appearances of repentance to control our response. Displays of tears or appearing to be sorry must not become substitutes for clear changes in attitude and behavior.



Seven signs of genuine confession and repentance:

The offender:

1. Accepts full responsibility for his or her actions. (Instead of: “Since you think I’ve done something wrong…” or “If have done anything to offend you…”).

2. Accepts accountability from others.

3. Does not continue in the hurtful behavior or anything associated with it.

4. Does not have a defensive attitude about his or her being in the wrong.

5. Does not have a light attitude toward his or her hurtful behavior.

6. Does not resent doubts about his or her sincerity- nor the need to demonstrate sincerity. (Especially in cases involving repeated offenses)

7. Makes restitution wherever necessary.

Note on restitution: Restitution gives the offender an opportunity to demonstrate by actions that he or she wishes to be restored to the injured person and to society in general. The harder you work to make restitution and repair any damage you have caused, the easier it will be for others to believe your confession and be reconciled to you.

Forgiveness does not necessarily release an offender from responsibility to repair the damages caused by his or her actions. An injured party may exercise mercy and choose to waive the right to restitution, but in many cases making restitution is beneficial even for the offender. Doing so demonstrates remorse, sincerity, and a new attitude, which can strengthen reconciliation. At the same time, it serves to establish lessons that will help the offender avoid similar wrongdoing in the future.
This is from Christian Worldview Network.

My heart is broken knowing our brothers and sisters are being labeled 'lost' for calling sin...sin!

Karen said...

Proverbs,

Thanks for those links. I went to the 1st one and found a booklet called "Is Your Church Going Purpose Driven". Let me list the sign to look for:

1. Change in music to a contemporary rock style - BBC is getting close.

2. Removal of hymn books; eliminating the choir - not yet, but the Praise Team does take center stage.

3. Replacement of organ and piano with heavy metal instuments - doesn't matter if we have a piano or organ; you can't hear them over the drums.

4. Repetivive singing of praise lyrics - good ole 7/11 choruses

5. Elminiating of business meeting, church committees, council of elders, board of deacons, etc. - when was the last business meeting???

6. The pastor, or a new leader with a few assistans, usually four, take charge of all church business - Gaines, Coombs, Daugherty, Smith, enter your personal favorite here.

7. A repetitive 40-day PDC study program stressing psychological relationships with each other, the community or the world begins - the College Dept "revisited" the Purposd Drive Life book.

8. Funded budgeted programs are abandonded, or ignored, with ambiguous financial reports made.- we'll see what they say at the "business meeting" coming up on the 24th. The FUMC donation could be under this heading.

9. Sunday morning, evening and/or Wednesday prayer meetings are changed to other times; some may even be eliminated - watch and see.

10. Sunday School teachers are moved to different classes, or replaced by new teachers more sympathetic with the changes being implemented - ask Riad Saba his take on this.

11. The name "Sunday School" is dropped and classes are given new names - it's been "Bible Fellowship" for awhile now.

12. Crosses and other traditions Christian symbols may be moved from both the inside and outside of the church building. The pulpit may also be removed - if the 3 crosses go missing, I'm outta there!

13. In accordance with Dr. Warren's instructions, new version Bibiles are used; or noly verses flasshed on the screen are referenced during regular services. - what version is Steve using?

14. PDC films, purchased from Saddleback, precede or are used during regular services.

15. The decor, including the carpets, may be changed to eliminate any resemblance to the former church - our carpet and seats are pretty new; this may not happen for awhile.

16. The words "Church" is often taken from the name of the church, and the church may be called a "campus". Denominational names may also be removed.

17. An emphasis on more fun and party sessions for the youth - I don't have kids so I can't speak to this, but didn't the Singles have a "Hollywood New Year's Eve" party?

18. Elimination of altar calls or salvation invitations at the close of the services.

19. The eliniation or such words as "unsaved", "lost", "sin", "Hell", "Heaven" and other gospel verities from the pastor's messages - I do know Steve only makes "mistakes". Guess that beats calling it "sin."

20. The reclassification of the saved and lost to the "churched" and "unchurched".

21. The marginalizing or ostracizing of all who are not avid promotors of the new Purpose Driven progam - "If you don't like it, find another church"

22. Closed meetings between the pastor and chosen staff members without any reports made to the general membership - if this is happening, I'm pretty uncomfortable with that.

23. Open hostility to members who do not openly embrace the new program, or who may have left for another church. - Check with Mark Sharpe and Josh Manning. They've been pretty beat up. Also, IDC receives nasty emails all the time.

karen

9.

Karen said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
DON said...

" MOTHER EARTH " ???????

Hmmmmmm

.....Just what would be the point of putting a chorus up in here with such openly new age terms?

Karen said...

OOOH Don,

I didn't notice that! I thought the chorus was good. I'll take it down.

Thanks!

karen

Karen said...

This is the chorus of "Future Generations" by 4HIM - I didn't realize the verse referred to "Mother Earth", which I don't condone, but the chorus was posted to reiterate my post about the PDL movement. I hope I didn't offend too many people!:

We won’t bend and we won’t break
we won’t water down our faith
We won’t compromise in a world of desperation
What has been we cannot change
But for tomorrow and today
We must be a light for future generations

MOM4 said...

Karen,
This movement sure is subtle at first glance, isn't it!!!!!
I wonder if that is why so many at BBC don't recognize it.

Karen said...

mom4,

Yeah, it even got me! I posted the whole song by 4HIM without even thinking twice. Hey, they play it on KLOVE, must be an okay thing. I sure bit me in the hind end right quick! If this PDC movement showed up with flashing lights and sirens, I still think most people would think it okay. Quite scary!

karen

DON said...

Regarding Satans " SUBTLETY"

Genesis 3: 1-5

Genesis 3:1-5
1 Now the serpent was more "subtil" than any beast of the field which the LORD God had made. And he said unto the woman, Yea, F19 hath God said, Ye shall not eat of every tree of the garden? 2 And the woman said unto the serpent, We may eat of the fruit of the trees of the garden: 3 But of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden, God hath said, Ye shall not eat of it, neither shall ye touch it, lest ye die. 4 And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die: 5 For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil.

Lin said...

http://www.sacredsandwich.com/headline20.htm

Just a little humor.

Karen said...

Don,

I just had a thought - Eve wasn't scared of the serpent. If I saw a talking snake these days, I'd either run or call Ripley's. Do you think that's why God made snakes scarier than say a fuzzy puppy - so that we would know it's a bad animal. Am I making sense? Or is this just a really random "only you, Karen" thought??

Karen

DON said...

I do not believe that the " serpent " described in the Bible can automatically be assumed to be a " snake " .

There are tons of Christian publishings that show the serpent as a "snake"..in the garden,...

but the jury is out on this one...as I do not beleive the wording is " snake specific " ..it simply says... serpent

LibertyinChrist said...

RICK WARREN ON NIGHTLINE LAST NIGHT

Re Rick Warren was interviewed on Nightline last night from ABC:

"Warren also admitted that it can be difficult to strike a balance between the concerns of modern life and a focus on the Bible."

"When you're preaching and teaching the good news, you walk a very fine line where you're taking the world of the Bible and the world of today, and you're building a bridge between those [worlds]," he explained. "Now, it's easy to be biblical if you don't care about being relevant … And it's easy to be relevant if you don't care about being biblical. I happen to want to be both.","

My Comment:

And contrary to what Warren said on the show, there is NO balancing relevance to the 21st Century with the Bible. The Bible and the same false teachings warned about in the End is equally relevant to First Century as it is to the 21st Century. Furthermore, Warren's balancing concept reminds me of the same Yin-Yang balancing that is embedded in his SHAPE Personality Profiling Divination that he derived from Carl Jung's occultic teachings which he obtained from a spirit-guide named Philemon. "A double-minded man is unstable in all his ways!" Don's description on Warren's appearance last night which he posted above on this blog hits the nail on the head!

Pastor Bob DeWaay's Comment on Warren's appearance on Nightline:

"I read the transcript of the interview. His theology is worldly. He is not balancing, he is compromising. We do not need bridges to the world, we need to preach the gospel so God will save people out of the world. At the end he blames the people being kicked out of churches. He accuses gospel preaching churches of not wanting to reach people. That is a lie. We just don’t believe that you have to attract people by worldly methods. He is totally deluded and believes his own lies."

imaresistor said...

Piglet said, "I'm not sure that the ends are even scriptural. Help me out here.."

Hey Piglet...what you have here is Rick Warren, plain and simple. He never makes any sense. Have you not noticed before now? :)

I'll have a little more to say on this subject shortly...

Ima

LibertyinChrist said...

If this is the best ABC or FOX News can do in interrogating Rick Warren, you can't help but wonder what they are keeping from us on other fronts. None of these so-called journalists are even grounded enough in God's Word to even ask the right questions. So Lighthouse Trails rightly condemns ABC for still keeping us in the dark and those who interview Rick Warren are just as blind as Warren leading all who believe this report into the ditch! Here is Lighthouse Trails report:


Rick Warren on ABC Nightline - ABC Misses the Mark

Source: Lighthouse Trails

Once again, the secular media has missed the mark in their reporting about Rick Warren. ABC News Nightline interviewed Warren on March 7 and kept only to the surface when addressing the reasons some Christians are concerned about Warren's teachings (Rick Warren and Purpose-Driven Strife).

While the report said that "Warren's 'outside in' approach to church growth is now causing rumblings," it only touched on some of the symptoms of Warren's theology, such as "Madison Avenue" marketing approaches and loud music that catered more to young people and disregarded older members.

The article did not mention things like Rick Warren's goal to bring about a new reformation that includes all religions, his continued promotion and embracing of contemplative spirituality and the emerging church, his dominionist views as well as his disregard for biblical prophecy, the cruel treatment by Purpose Driven pastors towards those who do not go along with the program, and his connections to and influence by New Age sympathizers like Ken Blanchard and Robert Schuller.

The article stated: "When asked if he [Warren] thinks that some of these [church]splits are actually because Christians themselves are indulgent and refusing to change, Warren said, "Oh, without a doubt." And when asked if he blames them, he replied, "I do blame them. Every church has to make the decision. ... Is it going to live for itself, or is it going to live for the world that Jesus died for?" (Watch this video where Rick Warren says this.)

Once again, Rick Warren has publicly denounced those who resist him. So that the rest of the story can be told, we post below some of the stories we have covered regarding Rick Warren and the Purpose Driven program:

Wall Street Journal on Purpose Driven Resisters Tells Just Part of the Story

Is Rick Warren Promoting Contemplative Prayer?

Why Has Fox News Interviewed Rick Warren So Much Lately?

Rick Warren Distorts the Instructions of Jesus to Fit His Global Peace Plan

Purpose Driven Resisters - Must Leave or Die

This article or excerpt was posted on March 7, 2007@ 10:01 pm .

From: http://www.lighthousetrailsresearch.com
Category: * Purpose Driven

imaresistor said...

piglet said, "I don't think living "for the world" is the mark of a Christian....."

"Maybe he just got tongue tied
(?) :/"

No...that is the problem with PDC/CGM. They ARE like the world. They want the churches to incorporate the world into them.

Got his tongue tied? Not a chance. He said exactly what he meant to say. He said exactly what he means.
This is the problem!

DON said...

We are so close to The Return of The Lord for His faithful few...

I agree 100% with James Sunquists remarks and Pastor Dewaay's remarks regarding Rick Warrens patently offensive lies and his belief of his own lies.

Warren is under strong delusion...

The bible speaks of an end times strong delusion...
2 Thessalonians 2:3-12
3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; 4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God. 5 Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things? 6 And now ye know what withholdeth F5 that he might be revealed in his time. 7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way. 8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming: 9 Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders, 10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved. 11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: 12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

Look UP

Our Redemption draweth NIGH

The Lord never forsakes His OWN

That is HIS COVENANT

Karen said...

Liberty,

I totally agree with what you say. We cannot as Christians water down the Gospel so unbelievers will "get it". Unbelievers have been "getting it" for thousands of years without dumbing down the Gospel. Also, the belief of bringing in the masses by any means necessary has allready been proven to be a bad idea at BBC. By allowing the rock music and darkness of I2 to continue, BBC will continue to post security guards at the bathrooms to prevent the kids from having sex in them.

Dr. DeWaay's comment of "We just don’t believe that you have to "attract people by worldly methods." gave me this thought: Strippers and Go-Go cages are most certainly worldly and most certainly would attact (some) people. But at what cost and what message? Hey, if you want rock music and Starbucks, why not stripppers - when is the line drawn that says that's "too worldly"?

karen

Mike Bratton said...

Karen said...

...

1. Change in music to a contemporary rock style - BBC is getting close.


Last Sunday's music list included "Crown Him Lord," "All Creatures of Our God and King," "Holy, Holy, Holy," "Take My Life and Let It Be," and "Just As I Am." Any assertion that Bellevue's music is moving to "rock" isn't supported, well, by Bellevue's music.

And as for "contemporary," "Amazing Grace" was "contemporary" at one time, was it not? Are we as the Christian church never again to allow new music, on the grounds that it's all tainted with the mark of being "contemporary"?

2. Removal of hymn books; eliminating the choir - not yet, but the Praise Team does take center stage.

Why do hymn books make a lot of sense (and I'm a fan of hymn books, by the way) in churches where the lyrics can be projected on a screen?

And obviously, the choir isn't about to be dispatched. But why are praise teams a horrible, terrible, no good, very bad thing? I've never really gotten a straight answer from anyone else who's lamented their existence.

3. Replacement of organ and piano with heavy metal instuments - doesn't matter if we have a piano or organ; you can't hear them over the drums.

We have a virtually full orchestra, and a program to train orchestra members for the future. Is it intuitive, much less logical, to say we'll be eliminating the orchestra for "heavy metal" when we're working to ensure its continuation?

And with regard to the organ: Since I've heard concerns about it in the past (and since I'm a fan of organ music), I asked about its future. The organ is staying right where it is, and it will continue to be a part of the music program. No need to be concerned about its presumed demise.

4. Repetivive singing of praise lyrics - good ole 7/11 choruses

Now we're getting back to the heart of things, as this is the fourth "point" in a row that's been about matters of taste and personal preference.

5. Elminiating of business meeting, church committees, council of elders, board of deacons, etc. - when was the last business meeting???

There's one coming up of sorts, isn't there?

And when's the last time a single committee was eliminated, much less several?

6. The pastor, or a new leader with a few assistans, usually four, take charge of all church business - Gaines, Coombs, Daugherty, Smith, enter your personal favorite here.

Please define how Pastor Gaines has "taken charge of all church business."

7. A repetitive 40-day PDC study program stressing psychological relationships with each other, the community or the world begins - the College Dept "revisited" the Purposd Drive Life book.

So, don't tell me, Karen, that you're bashing Pastor Rogers for advocating the first PDL study--surely that's not the case, is it? And if not, why was it all right then and the embodiment of evil now?

8. Funded budgeted programs are abandonded, or ignored, with ambiguous financial reports made.- we'll see what they say at the "business meeting" coming up on the 24th.

I thought there weren't any of those things? You know, business meetings?

The FUMC donation could be under this heading.

Excellent. That would be a marvelous time for this little cadre to stand up, state their names, and espouse the dogma that no one under any circumstances should ever get financial assistance from Bellevue Baptist Church unless they score at least 85% on the "Do You Believe As We Believe?" checklist.

Or 90%... I'm just spitballing there. Whatever threshold the Salvation Vigilantes want to keep from actually lending assistance to other Christians is their decision to make.

Which works well for them, apparently--it seems to be easy for them to dispatch others with "oh, they're not saved" or "oh, they're apostate."

9. Sunday morning, evening and/or Wednesday prayer meetings are changed to other times; some may even be eliminated - watch and see.

Because, of course, it's sinful to make the 8:00 a.m. classes start at 8:15 a.m.?

Again, matter of taste masquerading as "signs of the encroaching eeeeeeeeeeevil."

10. Sunday School teachers are moved to different classes, or replaced by new teachers more sympathetic with the changes being implemented - ask Riad Saba his take on this.

I'm not interested in commenting on Mr. Saba, but there was more to it than your remark suggests, Karen.

11. The name "Sunday School" is dropped and classes are given new names - it's been "Bible Fellowship" for awhile now.

Because "Sunday School" is Scriptural, and "Bible Fellowship" isn't?

12. Crosses and other traditions Christian symbols may be moved from both the inside and outside of the church building. The pulpit may also be removed - if the 3 crosses go missing, I'm outta there!

The pulpit's over 100 years old, if my failing memory serves, and it isn't going anywhere. Since you cannot specifically point to any cross or symbol that's been removed, this "point" is merely alarmist.

13. In accordance with Dr. Warren's instructions, new version Bibiles are used; or noly verses flasshed on the screen are referenced during regular services. - what version is Steve using?

And is he using it on orders from Rick Warren? Did he get a coded e-mail? A secret message sent via carrier pigeon? Telepathic signal? :)

Seriously, though, this is yet another matter of taste. Pastor Gaines often quotes extemporaneously from the KJV; just because he's chosen a more easily-accessible translation means zip, zero, nada. Unless you can find that carrier pigeon...

14. PDC films, purchased from Saddleback, precede or are used during regular services.

Have we used one--ever? I ask because I don't know. Is there anything we've ever run that was a Saddleback movie?

15. The decor, including the carpets, may be changed to eliminate any resemblance to the former church - our carpet and seats are pretty new; this may not happen for awhile.

You forget, though, that we've already changed the decor once. But again, isn't this a matter of taste?

16. The words "Church" is often taken from the name of the church, and the church may be called a "campus". Denominational names may also be removed.

Someone e-mail me when this is even remotely considered.

Thing of it is, every SBC church I've ever known of that's done that has taken great pains to make sure they're known as a Southern Baptist church.

17. An emphasis on more fun and party sessions for the youth - I don't have kids so I can't speak to this, but didn't the Singles have a "Hollywood New Year's Eve" party?

And parties are evil--why, exactly?

If the young people (and even the singles, though by definition they're single adults) aren't being fed and challenged, that's one thing. Is that a problem? And if so, does anyone here plan on bashing Phil Newberry?

18. Elimination of altar calls or salvation invitations at the close of the services.

Why, yes! That's... wait, something else that isn't happening at Bellevue.

19. The eliniation or such words as "unsaved", "lost", "sin", "Hell", "Heaven" and other gospel verities from the pastor's messages - I do know Steve only makes "mistakes". Guess that beats calling it "sin."

Mockery doesn't help to evade the fact that the messages include the words your list suggest are, or will be, excluded.

20. The reclassification of the saved and lost to the "churched" and "unchurched".

Are we getting into predicting the future here? We must be, since it's certainly not the present.

21. The marginalizing or ostracizing of all who are not avid promotors of the new Purpose Driven progam - "If you don't like it, find another church"

Since there's no "new Purpose Driven program," what in the world does this have to do with anything?

22. Closed meetings between the pastor and chosen staff members without any reports made to the general membership - if this is happening, I'm pretty uncomfortable with that.

Because, of course, any time Pastor Gaines meets with anyone, everyone should know all about it?

23. Open hostility to members who do not openly embrace the new program,

That should be changed to "from," rather than "to," as anyone who's slogged through this Forum and other affiliated sites can attest. And again, there's no "Purpose Driven" program to be embraced!

or who may have left for another church. - Check with Mark Sharpe and Josh Manning. They've been pretty beat up. Also, IDC receives nasty emails all the time.

"Nasty e-mails" like "Gee, you're violating copyright--could you stop?"

And as for Mr. Sharpe and Mr. Manning, they're anything but "pretty beat up."

--Mike

Karen said...

Mike,

Whatever - I'm not going toe to toe with you today. You believe what you want; enjoy Birmingham.

karen

imaresistor said...

koragg said, "If following the word of God is considered indulgent then I am guilty as charged. I'm sorry, but after watching that interview....my opinion of Rick Warren is that he's a barking moonbat. Liberalism has infected the church folks."

Very good koragg! But...'barking moonbat'? Not quite good enough. False teacher...deceiver would work well. The churches are infected with Warrenism. And now he is pushing comtemplative prayer. Guess we all need to go walk the labyrinth today and calm down. :(

imaresistor said...

"And again, there's no "Purpose Driven" program to be embraced!"

Famous last words...

Karen said...

ima,

thank you!

karen

Lin said...

In actuality, Rick Warren and others like him such as SG are really legalists.

They have more in common with the Catholic church than they do with Baptists.

The music, etc, does not really matter. To me Purple Haze is a far cry from Amazing Grace. But, I refuse to die on the music hill...the apostasy is far worse.

The members of the Body become an audience. They no longer have any say in anything. They are no longer part of the royal priesthood. They are there to be entertained and keep their mouths shut unless they are willing to blindly follow. (sound familiar?)

At Saddleback, members sign a pledge or oath saying they will never criticise the church. This is convenient because the Church at Saddleback is EVERYTHING. The church is Rick Warren, his few who make decisions. etc. As your very own Coombs said, if you want say, become part of the leadership. But one can't if one disagrees with the annointed one.

If you read the threads on the pastors.com you will see this thinking...."We have been called by God to lead this church" So they think they are special and annointed in spite of so many things being unscriptural! Sound familiar?

These guys, who want you to think they are so relevant, are really big into human hierarchies. Just look at how hierarchical BBC has become. YOu are no longer a real member of the Body of Christ where Christ is the head...you are one of the audience and what you say has no merit. Even from scripture.

Oh and another 'Catholic' similarity is the focus on works. Boy, this one is Big Big Big. I could spend a day just on this one.


The gospel is always relevant.
Now, they use all the right code words, servant evangelism, etc. but their actions are very different. Just try disagreeing with them on scripture and see.


Scripture teaches different:

But Jesus called them to him and said, "You know that the rulers of the Gentiles lord it over them, and their great ones exercise authority over them. It shall not be so among you. But whoever would be great among you must be your servant, and whoever would be first among you must be your slave, even as the Son of Man came not to be served but to serve, and to give his life as a ransom for many." Matthew 20: 20-28


But you are not to be called rabbi, for you have one teacher, and you are all brothers. And call no man your father on earth, for you have one Father, who is in heaven. Neither be called instructors, for you have one instructor, the Christ. The greatest among you shall be your servant. Whoever exalts himself will be humbled, and whoever humbles himself will be exalted. " Matthew 23: 8-11

quote from the ABC News ARticle:

"When you're preaching and teaching the good news, you walk a very fine line where you're taking the world of the Bible and the world of today, and you're building a bridge between those [worlds]," he explained. "Now, it's easy to be biblical if you don't care about being relevant … And it's easy to be relevant if you don't care about being biblical. I happen to want to be both."

Sounds so good doesn't it? It is pure apostasy. There is NO fine line. There is Christ and the World.

Rick Warren and his minions are much more dangerous than Jose de Jesus could ever dream of being. Jose is insane.

Warren is doing his work as an Angel of Light. Much more subtle....he includes a bit of truth here and there to confuse and confound those who do not know the full counsel of God. It is REAL easy to get sucked into Warren's apostasy because it is built on the premise that he wants people to be saved.

But his actions are doing the opposite: Many will think they are saved and may not be. You cannot be saved without a full realization of sin and repentance. And after years of reading Warren and listening to his sermons, sin and repentance are rarely mentioned.
Only God can regenerate a person's heart and He does this through His Word. Not Rick Warren.

2 Corinthians 11:13-15

13For such men are false apostles, deceitful workmen, disguising themselves as apostles of Christ. 14And no wonder, for even Satan disguises himself as an angel of light. 15So it is no surprise if his servants, also, disguise themselves as servants of righteousness. Their end will correspond to their deeds.

Memphis said...

Mike, I have to say that I agree with your post about the newest list that has been thrown on the blog today.

socwork said...

concerned, I will e-mail you when I get home. I don't have access to my e-mail here at work, but I did want to let you know I saw your message.

Karen said...

FYI, please don't think that I came up with the list I posted. I copied it from a brochure. This stuff is happening all over the country - just because all the steps have not been implemented at BBC yet, doesn't mean they are not subtly being implemented.

karen

imaresistor said...

Karen,

Anybody can get a brochure right herewhere it says 'Brochure:Are You Going Purpose Driven?'. Just scroll down a few lines to find...it is easily visible.

Karen said...

Ima,

Yup - that's the one.


karen

Amy,

I didn't get your email - could you resend it?

karen

concernedSBCer said...

socwork: Thanks! :)

oilfield trash said...

Not a Rick Warren fan - however can anyone show me where altar calls are scriptual?

DON said...

Evidence That Demands a " New Verdict"


Josh Mcdowell puts his endorsement on mystic Dan Kimballs newest book that elevates an Unbiblical and " different Jesus" and that puts down beleivers who take the Word of God literally ".

This newest book also takes open swipes at Christians while praising same-sex advocates.
Link to article :

http://www.fromthelighthouse.com/blog/index.php?p=546&more=1&c=1


Josh...Didnt you hear ?

The Kool aid was poisonous.

Mike Bratton said...

imaresistor said...
koragg said, "If following the word of God is considered indulgent then I am guilty as charged. I'm sorry, but after watching that interview....my opinion of Rick Warren is that he's a barking moonbat. Liberalism has infected the church folks."

Very good koragg! But...'barking moonbat'? Not quite good enough. False teacher...deceiver would work well. The churches are infected with Warrenism. And now he is pushing comtemplative prayer. Guess we all need to go walk the labyrinth today and calm down. :(


"False teacher"?

"Deceiver"?

So, you're on record that Rick Warren is not a Christian?

imaresistor said...
"And again, there's no "Purpose Driven" program to be embraced!"

Famous last words...


Then please find it at Bellevue, and give something more substantive than personal predilections as evidence.

Karen said...
ima,

thank you!

karen


Karen, my friend, you posted a great big list of things to look for at Bellevue. Most of that list is nothing but preferences and tastes; if you didn't want to discuss it, why did you post it?

All I did was examine your list, provide some information, and ask some questions. If your only answer is "whatever," that's just not substantive enough. Again, why would you post something you didn't want to discuss?

--Mike

Mike Bratton said...

Lin said...
In actuality, Rick Warren and others like him such as SG are really legalists.

They have more in common with the Catholic church than they do with Baptists.


The fashionable play around here is to say that Mr. Warren isn't a Christian; some even like to pin that on Pastor Gaines. Is that your intent, also?

The music, etc, does not really matter. To me Purple Haze is a far cry from Amazing Grace. But, I refuse to die on the music hill...the apostasy is far worse.

Apparently.

The members of the Body become an audience. They no longer have any say in anything. They are no longer part of the royal priesthood. They are there to be entertained and keep their mouths shut unless they are willing to blindly follow. (sound familiar?)

No, actually, it doesn't.

At Saddleback, members sign a pledge or oath saying they will never criticise the church.

Know where I can view a copy?

This is convenient because the Church at Saddleback is EVERYTHING. The church is Rick Warren, his few who make decisions. etc. As your very own Coombs said, if you want say, become part of the leadership. But one can't if one disagrees with the annointed one.

Actually, Mr. Coombs didn't say precisely that. Quoting thusly and like so, "those members who disagree with certain decisions made by those duly appointed by the entire congregation are entitled to strive to move into positions of influence and leadership by convincing the congregation of their worth and entitlement to such positions."

Such "convincing" would have to be done in public, though, so that might be problematic for most of the Bellevue members who are "regulars" here.

If you read the threads on the pastors.com you will see this thinking...."We have been called by God to lead this church" So they think they are special and annointed in spite of so many things being unscriptural! Sound familiar?

No, not in the least.

These guys, who want you to think they are so relevant, are really big into human hierarchies. Just look at how hierarchical BBC has become. YOu are no longer a real member of the Body of Christ where Christ is the head...you are one of the audience and what you say has no merit. Even from scripture.

I forget... are you a member of Bellevue?

Oh and another 'Catholic' similarity is the focus on works. Boy, this one is Big Big Big. I could spend a day just on this one.

I look forward to it.

The gospel is always relevant.
Now, they use all the right code words, servant evangelism, etc. but their actions are very different. Just try disagreeing with them on scripture and see.


We've seen how you and yours respond when someone disagrees with you and yours on Scripture. "Salvation Vigilantes--Go!"

Sounds like a Saturday morning cartoon, almost. "Saturday mornings, right after the Legion of Super-Heroes, it's the Salvation Vigilantes! Swooping into church disagreements--using their special powers to revoke the salvation of people they don't like! Don't cross them, or your goose is cooked!"

Scripture teaches different:

But Jesus called them to him and said, "You know that the rulers of the Gentiles lord it over them, and their great ones exercise authority over them. It shall not be so among you. But whoever would be great among you must be your servant, and whoever would be first among you must be your slave, even as the Son of Man came not to be served but to serve, and to give his life as a ransom for many." Matthew 20: 20-28


But you are not to be called rabbi, for you have one teacher, and you are all brothers. And call no man your father on earth, for you have one Father, who is in heaven. Neither be called instructors, for you have one instructor, the Christ. The greatest among you shall be your servant. Whoever exalts himself will be humbled, and whoever humbles himself will be exalted. " Matthew 23: 8-11

quote from the ABC News ARticle:

"When you're preaching and teaching the good news, you walk a very fine line where you're taking the world of the Bible and the world of today, and you're building a bridge between those [worlds]," he explained. "Now, it's easy to be biblical if you don't care about being relevant … And it's easy to be relevant if you don't care about being biblical. I happen to want to be both."

Sounds so good doesn't it? It is pure apostasy. There is NO fine line. There is Christ and the World.

Rick Warren and his minions are much more dangerous than Jose de Jesus could ever dream of being. Jose is insane.


I think you're being too kind to Mr. de Jesus.

Warren is doing his work as an Angel of Light. Much more subtle....he includes a bit of truth here and there to confuse and confound those who do not know the full counsel of God. It is REAL easy to get sucked into Warren's apostasy because it is built on the premise that he wants people to be saved.

But his actions are doing the opposite: Many will think they are saved and may not be. You cannot be saved without a full realization of sin and repentance. And after years of reading Warren and listening to his sermons, sin and repentance are rarely mentioned.
Only God can regenerate a person's heart and He does this through His Word. Not Rick Warren.

2 Corinthians 11:13-15

13For such men are false apostles, deceitful workmen, disguising themselves as apostles of Christ. 14And no wonder, for even Satan disguises himself as an angel of light. 15So it is no surprise if his servants, also, disguise themselves as servants of righteousness. Their end will correspond to their deeds.


So Rick Warren is a servant of Satan because you don't like the way he preaches?

"Salvation Vigilantes--Go!"

--Mike

New BBC Open Forum said...

Mike, do you ever listen to yourself? Enough of your diatribes! You don't want to discuss anything in a civil (or civilized) manner. You just want to scream at people and argue. Do you not have enough traffic on your own blog? I suppose not these days. Whatever. Just take it somewhere else -- anywhere else but here. You've worn out your welcome.

DON said...

Three cheers for NBBCOF

Truth Rules said...

Mike,

I have been following your posts for quit some time. I must say that you state your opinions in a such a way that your opponents are unable to refute most of your facts. But I've noticed that rather than refute facts with a counter argument they change the direction of the debate. That seems to be problematic for anyone searching for truth. Keep up the good work. There are many of us who enjoy your posts. You have more civility in your debate than the poster who calls herself "just my opinion". She may not have the intellectual side of the debate down as well as you but she can certainly take it down a notch and fight on their level. And that probably is the way to get to some of these guys, fight as dirty as they do. Well back to reading, I don't like this writing deal.

Truth Rules said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Lin said...

Phil 2

12Therefore, my beloved, as you have always obeyed, so now, not only as in my presence but much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling, 13for it is God who works in you, both to will and to work for his good pleasure

New BBC Open Forum said...

I could refute several of Mike's "facts," and in fact I started to, but why waste my time? He'd just come back and say I'm wrong. I have more important things to do, but if you really insist... maybe I'll find some time later tonight.

Trollcakes said...

One fact alledged on Bratton's BBC apologists forum is that the primary victim was interviewed by the investigative commitee--I seek some clarity on this. Was he interviewed by the commitee or not?

concernedSBCer said...

You know, it's funny, I don't remember anyone, except Mike, stating Rick Warren wasn't a Christian. I heard people questioning his direction, motives, and basis on what scripture, but I don't recall it being said he wasn't a Christian....

Tim said...

NBBCOF,

Amen! I refuse to argue with those that make an argument of what "is" is. That kind of attitude might work in a court room but I bet that it would probably get someone thrown in jail for contempt. As a matter of fact contempt is fairly accurate.

American Heritage Dictionary
con·tempt
n.
1. The feeling or attitude of regarding someone or something as inferior, base, or worthless; scorn.
2. The state of being despised or dishonored; disgrace.
3. Open disrespect or willful disobedience of the authority of a court of law or legislative body.

Trollcakes said...

That's because the cut-n-paste vigilante needs to demonize you and cast aspersions on your motives, because he cannot defend with any substance a pastor that sheltered a pedophile and the commitee that hemmed its investigation to protect him.

He would love to derail the debate with these strawmen forever than have to back up his blind loyalty to a bunch of sniveling hypocrites; precisely because he cannot.

Trollcakes said...

And what is the "copyright violation" to which the cut-n-paste vigilante refers on his blog?

Piglet said...

concerned sbcer said

You know, it's funny, I don't remember anyone, except Mike, stating Rick Warren wasn't a Christian. I heard people questioning his direction, motives, and basis on what scripture, but I don't recall it being said he wasn't a Christian....

Piglet says:

I caught that, too.

He also accused us of "revoking" salvation because we said that words and actions are a reflection of what is in the heart.

I'm not sure how he could deny something so obvious is true if he didn't twist it like he does. Very devious.

Piglet said...

trollcakes sid

And what is the "copyright violation" to which the cut-n-paste vigilante refers on his blog?

Piglet says:

I believe it might be the pictures of Bellevue on the IDC website...which have been removed.

Trollcakes said...

Yeah Bratton,

Why not cut-n-paste the actual allegation, since that is your forte?

allofgrace said...

truth rules,
The reason no one refutes what Mr Bratton says, is he never actually makes a statement..or makes an argument...he only plays off someone else's work..parsing paragraphs and throwing in a few sound bytes, ala Limbaugh. How can anyone argue with this:

sentence

sound byte

half-paragraph

sound byte

sentence out-of-context

soundbyte

paragraph

sound byte

3 word-2 sentence "commentary"

try refuting that kinda guff sometime...there's nothing to refute.

Trollcakes said...

Huh,

The cut-n-paste vigilante is getting his tights in a wad over some pictures of BBC on a website?

I quote the super-hero thusly and like so:

"Heh heh heh."

But still no outrage that the willfully ignorant pastor let a admitted pedophile roam the halls of BBC for 6 months, or the slanted PCIR.

That's priceless. No wonder he didn't clarify the accusation. Bwah, bad people post pictures--bwah! Pastors, however, without common sense--AOK.

New BBC Open Forum said...

trollcakes wrote:

"Was he interviewed by the commitee or not?"

It depends on what the definition of "interviewed" is.

Piglet said...

AOG

Love your post!!! LOL!!

Trollcakes

"tights in a wad" -- love that, too!!

You mean you got a problem with Mike's priorities? :b

Piglet said...

NASS

What's with the sheep on this thread? Is he watching a ping-pong tournament or is he ADHD? :)

solomon said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Lin said...

"Was he interviewed by the commitee or not?"

And the definition of 'committee'?

Lin said...

Aog: I long to be in your league. :o)

concernedSBCer said...

Solomon....didn't overlook it; just don't know, to be honest. I thought that was a Baptist "culture" thing....and I may be stepping in it big time....so don't cream me, because I really don't know. Have to study on it.

concernedSBCer said...

lin...you do pretty well yourself...but I do concur!

Lin said...

solomon wrote: "oilfield trash said...
Not a Rick Warren fan - however can anyone show me where altar calls are scriptual?"

Nobody wants to go there. There are no altar calls in scripture that I can find. the closest one I can find is where it says, If you confess with your mouth...

Also, no where in scripture can I find Jesus saying, "Won't just accept me into your heart"

A historical reading of Christianity makes alter calls a fairly new thing...aog probably knows more about this than I but my reading shows they became very popular after Finney.

Lin said...

"You know, it's funny, I don't remember anyone, except Mike, stating Rick Warren wasn't a Christian."

Quote enough scripture and that is the conclusion they come to. Ironic, huh?

DON said...

You know...

I was listening to a radio show about the very sad State of The Church ....with all of this redefining going on in the name of "relating and being relevant "...

You know...it just hit me ...what could ever be more RELEVANT to this world than " S I N "

The world and the culture just LOVE SIN..they can all relate !!!!


Yet...as "RELEVANT" as SIN is...

Rick tolerates and ignores its' effects and actually welcomes it IN by ommission and commission.

Curious hypocrites..

They arent seeking relevance..
They are seking to make the Holy Church as profane as they can...in order to neutralize it.

Emperors with no clothes

New BBC Open Forum said...

piglet wrote:

"What's with the sheep on this thread?"

As the topic title says, he's "here" and he's "there." At least that's the most creative thing I can think of right now.

concernedSBCer said...

thanks, lin...whew, dodged a bullet there....... ;)

imaresistor said...

Bratton said, "So, you're on record that Rick Warren is not a Christian?"

Reply: Those are your words, not mine. You are really good at putting words into people's mouths Mike. You will have to ask Warren himself that question. Knowing what he promotes in transitioning established churches to purpose driven churches, I would have to say that I think his fruit is certainly bruised. Suffice it to say that my husband's and my story speaks for itself as it appeared on the front page of the Wall Street Journal last September.That should be statement enough.

"Then please find it at Bellevue, and give something more substantive than personal predilections as evidence."

Reply: I have many times over. It is your turn to prove that it isn't. Anybody famililar with PD will see it all over the church's website alone. Not to mention all the stray sheep that have been abused...that alone is enough. Anybody that knows the moves of Rick Warren like I do doesn't have to prove anything to Mike Bratton. When you have walked in my shoes, then we will talk. You are coming here stabbing people who already have stab wounds. I would think you should be embarrassed to add insult to injury.

Since NASS has already asked you to move on, I am going to stop here. I know she is right...I am wasting my time on you as well. I really get the impression you like to show your intellect...and that is prideful in and of itself. I pray that you will take a long look at the issues presented and remove the scales from your eyes.
I have nothing more to add.

LibertyinChrist said...

Footnote on Rick Warren's appearance on Nightline....

Warren ends the interview by blaming the victims of his invasion and theft of their churches. If this is not the height of arrogance. It is they who are blessed. This reminds me of the Southern Baptist Press (Warren propaganda tool) article which reported the ousting of 165 members of Gardendale Baptist Church in Corpus Christi, TX, which effectively said they deserved it. Disposable Christians that's the mantra from a despot! Think it can't happen you? Think again!

imaresistor said...

Lin said...
"You know, it's funny, I don't remember anyone, except Mike, stating Rick Warren wasn't a Christian."

No, I don't either Lin. Rather a dramatic remark to make, huh...and taken out of context.

imaresistor said...

liberty said, "Think it can't happen you? Think again!"

Amen! We know about that one don't we! :)

solomon said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
allofgrace said...

Finney's "anxious bench" was the precursor to the altar call..before that time, the Church knew no such practice. The invitation is in the message. Altar calls are an invention...a product of the revivalism of the 2nd Great Awakening. The anxious bench was part of Finney's "new methods"..actually I consider Finney to be the father of both seeker-sensitivity and open theism...he was a pure Pelagian.

Lin said...

"It is easy to be Biblical if you don't care about being relevant".

--Rick Warren


(Tell that to Stephen)

IWTK said...

A Ministry Celebration service will be held Sunday, March 25, at 10:00 a.m. This will be a special time as we look back and celebrate the ministry victories of 2006. There will be no Bible Fellowship, and overflow seating will be provided in the Fellowship Hall.

This Worship Service will be followed by the Annual Congregational Meeting. Items to be discussed are:

Nominations from the Committee on Committees for members to serve on all church committees
Presentation of the church’s proposed budget for fiscal year 2007-08 from the Budget Planning Committee in conjunction with the Finance Committee
Any other business properly the subject of consideration by the congregation may be brought forward at this meeting

allofgrace said...

solomon,
LOL...looks like we were both on the same page at the same time.

4545 said...

Is this blog about "issues" at Bellevue or Saddleback??

IWTK said...

From the Bellevue Web Site:

A Ministry Celebration service will be held Sunday, March 25, at 10:00 a.m. This will be a special time as we look back and celebrate the ministry victories of 2006. There will be no Bible Fellowship, and overflow seating will be provided in the Fellowship Hall.

This Worship Service will be followed by the Annual Congregational Meeting. Items to be discussed are:

Nominations from the Committee on Committees for members to serve on all church committees
Presentation of the church’s proposed budget for fiscal year 2007-08 from the Budget Planning Committee in conjunction with the Finance Committee
Any other business properly the subject of consideration by the congregation may be brought forward at this meeting

Lin said...

I recommend this post about the church flirting with the 'world'

http://thinkerup.blogspot.com/2007/03/shes-flirt.html

Brady said...

I will definitely be in church on March 25th!!! When the meeting is all said and done then perhaps this blog can disappear for good. But then I have serious doubts that the people who are so adamant on here will have the courage to actually stand up and say something.

This should be quite an experience!

4545 said...

Amen Brady, amen!

junk99mail said...

A Purpose Driven sheep ...

http://www.wayneandwax.com/blog-stuff/sheep-beats.JPG

allofgrace said...

4545 said...

Is this blog about "issues" at Bellevue or Saddleback??

4545,
Does it really matter to you what the subject matter is? The only thing you have to add anyhow is your unequivocal 100% USDA approved backing of SG and the rest of the administration....oh yea and the occasional offering of these jewels:
"WOW"

"hate-filled gossip"

concernedSBCer said...

Thanks Solomon and AOG for the info...I knew it was "tradition" or culture if you will, but I didn't know where it came from. Hummmmmm...lots to think about.....

imaresistor said...

A blogger emailed me and asked me to enter this on the blogsite. This is in reference to the story I mentioned to Mike Bratton which appeared in the Wall Street Journal in September. It is relevant in that we are the people Rick Warren was referencing on his ABC interview and also the people that ABC is referring to in the WSJ. In fact, the morning after Christmas we received a phone call from ABC News Nightline producer Deborah
Apton about appearing in this very program. They got the story from the WSJ. She interviewed my husband and me via phone and told us that when she asked to interview the parties who voted us out of the church, they didn't want to be interviewed nor be seen on camera. Can't say that I blame them. You see, when these people in leadership do this to their fellow church members...they don't care what happens to them. They never repent. They literally have intent to possibly destroy the lives of their brothers/sisters in Christ and have no concern about what becomes of them. I have written this in here before...you can read my comments about it. It also appears on line.

Our story is parallel to the situation at Bellevue.

Here is the link to that story.




http://www.fromthelighthouse.com/blog/index.php?p=179&more=1&c=1

concernedSBCer said...

4545, you might be surprised that the two are connected. I know, I know...don't confuse with facts....

solomon said...

aog,

I crossed the finish line first...

:-)

4545 said...

You could not be more wrong, they are not even close! PLEASE post the facts on how the two are connected. PLEASE, I cannot wait. And please do not post some random links about Warren/Saddleback.

New BBC Open Forum said...

iwtk wrote:

"This Worship Service will be followed by the Annual Congregational Meeting."

Annual? On what date was the one held last year? I must've blinked or something.

aog,

Thank you. You beat me to the draw.

allofgrace said...

solomon said...

aog,

I crossed the finish line first...

:-)

And it's solomon..by a nose!! ;)

concernedSBCer said...

That has already been established. Go back and read for yourself.

New BBC Open Forum said...

Mr. Deacon wrote:

"PLEASE post the facts on how the two are connected."

You might start with Karen's 10:32 a.m. comment. I don't think anyone's saying we've arrived there yet, just that we seem to be on a very slippery slope. If you don't see it, then all I can say is, "Wow."

4545 said...

I have read everything and NO it has not been established, not even close. This blog gets worse and more desperate every day.

concernedSBCer said...

Then maybe your time could be better spent elsewhere.....we'd hate to keep you from important stuff.

Brady said...

Does anyone know if you have to get on the agenda for the 25th or do you just stand up and ask whatever you want? That should prove to be interesting.

concernedSBCer said...

Not being mean, just speaking the truth in love. :)

allofgrace said...

4545,
Perhaps you read this, perhaps not...but this HAS been discussed concerning BBC:

allofgrace said...
I promised a few days ago that I would post and state why I think a PD/seeker-sensitive/church growth type movement is underway at Bellevue. I’ll just begin by telling when I first started seeing signs of it…and it was before Dr. Rogers retired and Steve Gaines ever got here, although I think it’s definitely shifted to high gear since he took the pastorate at Bellevue.

I listed in an earlier post, the various movements that have taken place in evangelicalism over the last 10 or so years, beginning with John Maxwell’s writings and going through Experiencing God, George Barna’s comments on marketing the church, Promise Keepers, WWJD, PDC, PDL, Prayer of Jabez, etc, etc. All these I believe helped to set the stage for what is going on at Bellevue and has been happening in many SBC churches as well as other evangelical churches. Quite frankly, at my former church we went through some of John Maxwell’s stuff, and at the time, I was buying into the idea of neighborhood surveys, as a means of getting lost people into the church. At the time I couldn’t really see what was wrong with that mindset, but all these other books had yet to be published, and I didn’t have the foresight to see where it would lead.

Before I left my former church, they had adopted a worship band and introduced a lot of new praise choruses…some weren’t too bad…some were so repetitive and shallow I couldn’t stand it…not to mention repeating the choruses so many times it kept you standing till your feet got numb (is God really impressed with vain repetition?). Anyhow, after 9 years there and 3 major upheavals similar to what Bellevue is now experiencing, I felt the Lord leading me elsewhere. I began visiting Bellevue because of its stable history. 3 pastors in 75 years is very impressive for a Southern Baptist church, especially in this day and age. I enjoyed the worship very much…it’s true Dr. Whitmire started introducing some different music into the worship service, and a praise team, but I had no problems with it…I always felt he used all the gifts God had given him to help draw us into a spirit of true worship. I’m not really the hand clapping, hand waving type, but I have no problem with it as long as it’s not done for show, or to appear super spiritual, or it’s not crammed down my throat. Of course Dr. Rogers was someone I had always admired as a man who would stick to his guns no matter what. I felt I had found where the Lord wanted me to be, so after visiting for a few months, I moved my membership.

I know this is probably uninteresting, and everyone may be wondering when I’m going to make my point, but I felt it’s important to just share from the standpoint of what I’ve seen leading up to this point. I’ll continue in my next post to keep from taking up so much room. I hope you’ll forgive my long-windedness.
6:54 PM, November 29, 2006

allofgrace said...
I have to say once again, that I was totally taken by surprise when Dr. Rogers took us through the PDL, seeing that he was always a man of THE book. That’s not a criticism…just honest thoughts. During that time it seemed that’s all anyone talked about…everyone carried their books to church… sometimes sans Bibles…always quoting from it…as though it were scripture itself. I kept hearing things like “life-changing” (anytime I hear that about a book I get suspicious)…I can’t remember the last time I heard someone say that about something they read in the Bible. SS classes were going through it…small groups in homes…all at the same time….it seemed like a mass indoctrination….I remember thinking it almost comical. I objected to it mostly because I was tired of every study we did, being around some book someone wrote…which had been going on before PDL and after as well. I notice some classes are still doing “Bible” study around a book of some kind (is the Bible not enough anymore?) I have already shared in earlier posts about the young pastor from the church plant in Florida, which Bellevue supports…and how he shared about not using the words “repentance” or “Jesus” when witnessing to their “target” group. Frankly, that was downright scary to me…and especially since Bellevue supports it.

Soon after Dr. Gaines came to Bellevue, I noticed a lot of billboards around town. I know that Bellevue has had them before, but what caught my attention was the content: “Feel like giving up?”…give it to Jesus”, “Tired of trying but losing?”…..”Tried religion? …get a relationship with Jesus.” I’m honestly not one to go around looking for something wrong, but these little slogans sounded….well…a little too “felt needs” oriented to me…I mean is Jesus just one more option among other options? Maybe I’m wrong and I’m open to correction…but did Jesus die to make us feel better about ourselves?...our lives?...meet our “felt” needs? Are our felt needs our basic problem? I think that sends the wrong message about who Jesus is and what he came for… a lost person will no doubt connect with the sentiment of the billboards…a lost person’s life is completely self-centered…but what Jesus are we leading them to?...someone who’s going to make their lives all better? The Christian life involves a cross…dying to self and all our “felt” needs…counting the cost. I can tell you my everyday life got a lot tougher after coming to Christ…because the gospel has these demands…that’s the gospel that Jesus preached… it’s the gospel we should preach…whether on a billboard or from the pulpit.

Ok, another breather.
8:03 PM, November 29, 2006


allofgrace said...
Besides the billboards, there's i2 memphis..we were told there wouldn't be a dividing into contemporary and traditional services...but in reality that's what i2 memphis is..at least the age group it targets is the target group for contemporary services is it not? It's just held on thursday nights instead of Sunday morning. I just don't see a Biblical warrant for dividing a church's worship into young and old...how can there be unity like that?...a deacon claimed the church was dying under Dr. Rogers..and that the young folks were leaving and none of them joining...so does that mean the problem is with the church..or with the young folks? The world outside has been trying to separate the young from the old for some time...why do we buy into the same philosophy?...it reminds me of the 60's.."don't trust anyone over 30". I would think by the time someone is 18-29 yrs old they could worship with the rest of the grownups. Now the singles department has a coffee shop...widescreen tv's everywhere..what is all this stuff about? Is it just gimmicks to attract people to the church? What's next.."themed" worship services? With all the information that's out there..and with all that's appeared in this church..it's very hard for me to not believe that Bellevue is going PD/seeker-sensitive. Call me an alarmist if you want...or you can just write me off as a grumbler or a nutcase..but I ask you to think on these things beloved. I've said all I'm going to say on this subject.
10:10 PM, November 29, 2006

New BBC Open Forum said...

Mr. Deacon wrote:

"I have read everything and NO it has not been established, not even close."

I repeat, "Wow."

4545 said...

Just what I thought, NOTHING!

4545 said...

Those are your "facts"?

Brady said...

I've just been reading this blog for a little while but it seems like everyone is demanding and screaming for an open business meeting. Well, we're gonna have on the 25th!!! Praise God.

My grandma used to tell me to either "put up or shut up" and that's what will happen on the 25th. Remember--if you want to stand up and talk, you will have to give your whole name. Somehow or another I think most of those who are demanding everything will not stand to be counted on that day.

concernedSBCer said...

4545...Bless your heart.

Remember AOG, don't confuse with facts......

maybejustmaybe said...

Anyone noticed that the sheep illustrating this thread is yellow? Aren't you glad God doesn't promise to make our sin as "yellow as snow?"

I know, I know ... there's a joke, but I'm NOT going there ...

concernedSBCer said...

maybe...thanks for the laugh...

4545 said...

Continue to do everything but post the facts.

Brady said...

Now that I've gotten brave enough to write on here, I wanted to share some more stuff. I am 32, married, and have 2 kids but I love the new methods BBC is using. I realize many of you hate the new music but some of us love it. I used to get so tired of hymnals and the same old songs every time I came to church. I love the new methods our church is using to reach my lost friends. Its working and we can all be thankful for that. I loved Dr. Rogers and I also love hearing Dr. Gaines. I don't think either one of them watered down their sermons.

What worries me a lot more than this PDL stuff is the attitude that is in our church. I always taught my kids we were to love one another and be nice but that sure isn't happening these days. I'm not sure who is right and who is wrong but I know its really hurting the cause of Christ and wounding the hearts of a lot of children who are watching the adults in our church.

I am hoping and praying that this business meeting on the 25th will finally put an end to this fighting. I'm not leaving and plan to do all I can to grow our church and reach people for Jesus. If that means using new methods, then that's fine with me. I'll always check with Jesus first to see if its ok.

I hope you'll all be there on the 25th and let's ask all our questions openly and honestly, repair some broken relationships, and then get on with growing our church for the glory of God.

allofgrace said...

4545,
Ok let's hear what you've got..anything?..that is besides WOW.

4545 said...

Great post Brady! MANY of us love Brother Steve and love what God is doing at Bellevue.

IWTK said...

1. Change in music to a contemporary rock style - BBC is getting close.

Response: Half hymns/half new is our format. Rock style? Listen to some Petra and get back to me on "rock style at Bellevue"

2. Removal of hymn books; eliminating the choir - not yet, but the Praise Team does take center stage.

Response: Praise Teams were there with Whitmire. Where was the outcry then?

3. Replacement of organ and piano with heavy metal instruments - doesn't matter if we have a piano or organ; you can't hear them over the drums.

Response: Drums are heavy metal? I learned something new.

4. Repetitive singing of praise lyrics - good ole 7/11 choruses

Response: see #1

5. Eliminating of business meeting, church committees, council of elders, board of deacons, etc. - when was the last business meeting???

Response: We never had Business meeting under Dr. Rogers (at least in the last 15 years). We have one on March 25. Last I heard, we had 160 Deacons.

6. The pastor, or a new leader with a few assistants, usually four, take charge of all church business - Gaines, Coombs, Daugherty, Smith, enter your personal favorite here.

Response: See Committee on Committee Report on March 25.

7. A repetitive 40-day PDC study program stressing psychological relationships with each other, the community or the world begins - the College Dept "revisited" the Purpose Drive Life book.

Response: Dr. Rogers led PDL during his tenure. Where was the outcry then?

8. Funded budgeted programs are abandoned, or ignored, with ambiguous financial reports made.- we'll see what they say at the "business meeting" coming up on the 24th. The FUMC donation could be under this heading.

Response: Be there March 25. Total transparency coming

9. Sunday morning, evening and/or Wednesday prayer meetings are changed to other times; some may even be eliminated - watch and see.

Response: No indication this is happening

10. Sunday School teachers are moved to different classes, or replaced by new teachers more sympathetic with the changes being implemented - ask Riad Saba his take on this.

Response: Riad used his teaching position to openly criticize his pastor and the church. That is not the place to do that. I guess that is why blogs where created? Teachers are to teach God's Word.

11. The name "Sunday School" is dropped and classes are given new names - it's been "Bible Fellowship" for awhile now.

Response: Once again, Dr. Rogers. He must have been a Warrenite???

12. Crosses and other traditions Christian symbols may be moved from both the inside and outside of the church building. The pulpit may also be removed - if the 3 crosses go missing, I'm outta there!

Response: The three crosses can withstand a 170 mph wind.

13. In accordance with Dr. Warren's instructions, new version Bibles are used; or noly verses flasshed on the screen are referenced during regular services. - what version is Steve using?

Response: If you have to ask what version of the Bible Steve is using, do you attend regularly? He uses the NAS. He also quotes the NIV, KJV, NKJV as well. The original Bible was not in English. If you want KJ or die, go to an Independent Baptist church

14. PDC films, purchased from Saddleback, precede or are used during regular services.

Response: Have not seen evidence of that

15. The decor, including the carpets, may be changed to eliminate any resemblance to the former church - our carpet and seats are pretty new; this may not happen for awhile.

Response: Dr. Rogers picked the colors (not my favorite) we have now and I believe we will get 15-20 years out of our current decor.

16. The words "Church" is often taken from the name of the church, and the church may be called a "campus". Denominational names may also be removed.

Response: Bellevue Baptist Church - always has been, always will be

17. An emphasis on more fun and party sessions for the youth - I don't have kids so I can't speak to this, but didn't the Singles have a "Hollywood New Year's Eve" party?

Response: Call Phil Newberry or Tim Shelton

18. Elimination of altar calls or salvation invitations at the close of the services.

Response: Alter calls still given. We give alter calls at bake sales

19. The elimination or such words as "unsaved", "lost", "sin", "Hell", "Heaven" and other gospel verities from the pastor's messages - I do know Steve only makes "mistakes". Guess that beats calling it "sin."

Response: I hear the words "sin" and "hell" most sermons

20. The reclassification of the saved and lost to the "churched" and "unchurched".

Response: Not happening to my knowledge. Ask the folks in EE if they use these terms.

21. The marginalizing or ostracizing of all who are not avid promotors of the new Purpose Driven program - "If you don't like it, find another church"

Response: Those who have left did not leave due to this "PDL movement at Bellevue" dream. When they were unable to worship or serve at Bellevue, they found a church home where they could worship and serve.

22. Closed meetings between the pastor and chosen staff members without any reports made to the general membership - if this is happening, I'm pretty uncomfortable with that.

Response: See Committee on Committee Report on March 25.

23. Open hostility to members who do not openly embrace the new program, or who may have left for another church. - Check with Mark Sharpe and Josh Manning. They've been pretty beat up. Also, IDC receives nasty emails all the time.

Response: To my knowledge, Mark Sharpe left on his own. I have seen Richard Emerson recently at Bellevue. Josh does not even live here does he? How about petitions that are based on bad information? Is that not nasty?

Summary: Out of the "23 Ways You Know Your Church is Going PDL" handbook, I think Bellevue is 0 for 23. I may give you #23, but there is plenty of nasty on both sides.

So how is it we are going PDL? This seems to be the "topic of the decade". In the 70's, it was tongues. Warren, Calvinism, all these will pass.

New BBC Open Forum said...

4545,

Do you love us "hate-filled" bloggers, too?

Trollcakes said...

Here's a couple of facts--the Pastor and staff sheltered an admitted pedophile for 6 months until forced into action by the victim. Then the PCIR whittled the scope to only address the pedophile in question, not the numbskull inaction of the leadership.

How much you love or support the pastor and others have no bearing on the fact that they has forfeited their right as credible leaders.

I imagine the openess of the bidness meeting will be like that of the congregational "vote" on the Coombs ordination.

I laugh at these sniveling goons and their speaking for God. Share a laugh with me.

Is this another of the great things God is doing at BBC?

Koragg said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Koragg said...

I agree with you Trollcates....

Harboring the pedophile reduced their level of integrity from a respected pastor to barking moonbat crooks.

Truth Rules said...

Brady, thank you for posting. I made my first post on this blog today as well. I usually post on some other blogs but have read this one for months. It is hard to understand how these who profess Christ's love in their hearts can be so anger with anyone who says anything positive about our church. They jumped all over Mike today for his posting. We used to have a deacon named Derrick who posted but they discounted all he said as well. There have been some who go toe to toe with the more angry posters but they are personally attacked.

Anyway it is always good to see some of the positive posts on this board. Keep teaching your children to love so they don't end up like many on this board with bitterness in their hearts. Hopefully on the 25th they will get their say and realize how much support our leaders have. At that point they should either accept it or go their own way in peace. Life is too short to stay and be angry. Especially among those of us who are enjoying Bro. Steve's preaching and the music program. Maybe after the 25th we can get back to what we need to be about.

FallethNtheDitch said...

ITWK
Question.........
If God SAys That Steve Gaines shall come to pass shall he come to pass?

IWTK said...

FallethNtheDitch: If God wants SG gone, I think He is more than capable of doing that. Agree?

concernedSBCer said...

Isn't it odd how it is now PC to think all disagreements are rooted in anger and hate......when they aren't.

Trollcakes said...

That's right, don't address the "facts," after hammering people here for a lack of them.

Love your mantra--"them's jest haters." We have mantras on my path too (boodhist), but they are directed to more compassionate ends.

It is humorous to me that those claiming ultimate grace are devoid of exhibiting here. Don't even try to look down your nose at my path.

solomon said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
IWTK said...

solomon said...
Signs of CGM #3. Replacement of organ and piano with heavy metal instruments - doesn't matter if we have a piano or organ; you can't hear them over the drums.

Is Bellevue replacing the pianos? The $80,000 Steinway pianos? All 3 of them?

And the $100,000 organ, that dates back in church history all the way to 2001?

Response: I hear Warren has 4 Steinways and has a $5,000 keyboard. My gosh, we are Saddleback! On steroids!!

sickofthelies said...

brady said:

If that means using new methods, then that's fine with me. I'll always check with Jesus first to see if its ok.

sotl says:

Umm, did you check with him regarding the scripture referring to when someone is no longer qualified to be a minister? Did you check with Jesus when SG failed to follow scripture and allowed PW to stay on staff?
Did you check with Jesus when SG said that he had no "policy in place" to deal with a child predator? Did you check with Jesus when SG climbed over the ITTY BITTY fence? Did you check with Jesus when SG went to Union City and slammed his OWN sheep?

What do you think Jesus is saying about this pastor who CONTINUALLY ignores scripture?

solomon said...

My gosh, we are Saddleback! On steroids!!

Steriods are illegal.

FallethNtheDitch said...

We shall all come to pass and have to give an account to Jesus who shall Judge righteously...SOME TO Eternal Life and some to Everlasting Fire....Every knee shall bow and Every tongue shall Confess that Jesus Christ is LORD!

IWTK said...

FallethNtheDitch said...
We shall all come to pass and have to give an account to Jesus who shall Judge righteously...SOME TO Eternal Life and some to Everlasting Fire....Every knee shall bow and Every tongue shall Confess that Jesus Christ is LORD!

And all God's people said AMEN

Trollcakes said...

"Steriods are illegal."

Yes, but the hot wind of sanctimony is not.

socwork said...

God is a God of justice. Does that mean He's a hater too?

Psalm 89:14
Righteousness and justice are the foundation of your throne; steadfast love and faithfulness go before you.

Is 59:4
No one calls for justice; no one pleads his case with integrity. They rely on empty arguments and speak lies; they conceive trouble and give birth to evil.

Is 59:15b
The LORD saw it, and it displeased him that there was no justice.

Those who have issues with the leadership of BBC are not hating the leadership - they are wanting to see justice and righteousness and integrity. What is so very wrong with that? Seriously?

And those of you who think we are just relentlessly attacking the leadership of Bellevue, do you think your condescending attitudes are pleasing the Lord you claim to serve and love?

Is 66:2
All these things my hand has made,
and so all these things came to be,
declares the LORD. But this is the one to whom I will look: he who is humble and contrite in spirit and trembles at my word.

solomon said...

Yes, but the hot wind of sanctimony is not.

Depends on whose law you're following.

concernedSBCer said...

socwork, you've got mail. :)

Lin said...

"I can tell you my everyday life got a lot tougher after coming to Christ…because the gospel has these demands…that’s the gospel that Jesus preached… "

Dittos.

My 'felt needs' had to go.

He must increase. I must decrease.

I heard one pastor refer to what we are seeing as 'churchianity' instead of Christianity. We can literally make church an idol. (The building, the programs, events, etc.) A 'ministry' can become an idol. (The numbers and money...God is blessing us! Like Laodicea? That is NO blessing)

I can certainly understand what is happening now. The deep study of scripture in context is rare in churches across this land. People literally do not know basics. And are led astray easily.

If they took scriptural commands seriously, they would have a hard time sitting under the teaching of Gaines who has ignored scripture. They would be scared. But, now that church is 'cool', it hardly matters to them.

Don't ever forget: What you win them with, is what you win them to.

sickofthelies said...

iwtk said:

A Ministry Celebration service will be held Sunday, March 25, at 10:00 a.m. This will be a special time as we look back and celebrate the ministry victories of 2006

sotl says:

hmmmm, the ministry victories...let's review:

1) SG and his " let's lock the pastor emeritus out of his office he has had for 32 years"
2) SG and his ONE visit to see his best friend, his ' mentor' Dr. R. while he was in the hospital
3) SG and his " I had a dream"
4) SG and his itty bitty fence
5) SG and his Union City tour
6) SG and his nonapology to Jim Whitmire
7) SG and his pedophile buddy
8) SG and his " I want to still be your preacher" speech ( complete with bill clinton-style trembling lip)
9) SG and his brilliant idea of " I didn't know what the policy is for a pedophile on staff, so I just sent him back into the halls, unsupervised to be around children.
( By the way, the average child molestor will victimize 117 children)
10) SG and his " let's make our head goon a minister"


ARE THESE THE ' MINISTRY VICTORIES' THAT BLIND AND THE DEAF WILL CELEBRATE?

I'm thinkin i'll pass.

IWTK said...
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IWTK said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
sickofthelies said...

OH OH OH

and let's not forget " THE REPORT"

Yeah, what a celebration those folks are gonna have!

Trollcakes said...

Let's all attend on the 25th, wearing eye patches--celebrating one blind eye. It will be a glorious time of fellowship!

IWTK said...

sickofthelies: I'm thinkin...I do hope you have taken your spiritual gifts to another church. Maybe God can use you there.

sickofthelies said...

iwtk,

I dont' like ' church people' anymore. I have no desire to be aorund them.

I have seen the sausage being made, and I can worship at home, without pedophiles, without the goons, without the preacher/law breaker, without the bill clinton style politics.

Thanks but no thanks.

( no offense to my friends on here who are trying to restore truth and integrity to the pulpit)

Trollcakes said...

SOTL,

I sincerly hope you don't isolate yourself from those Christians who live their faith with integrity and humility--even I know they are around.

You need the fellowship, dear girl. If I can help, let me know.

Lin said...

2 Corinthians 7:9-10

As it is, I rejoice, not because you were grieved, but because you were grieved into repenting. For you felt a godly grief, so that you suffered no loss through us.

For godly grief produces a repentance that leads to salvation without regret, whereas worldly grief produces death.

Trollcakes said...

Awe, did I run all the snivelers away--boohoo!

sickofthelies said...

Sweet Cakes

Thank you for caring. The problem with going to another church and finding " real Christians" would mean that I would still be setting myself up for more abuse from the pharisees.

I just can't take it anymore. I can't do it.

But, sweetcakes, Buddist or not, I would take YOU as a friend over many of these " christians" that post on here, you know which ones I am talking about.

solomon said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
FallethNtheDitch said...

A Visual gift to both sides tonite...Take a Blog break type in apod archive and look at some of the things your heavenly father created....surf the archives at your lesiure bookmark it then read Psalm 19 in its entirety...nite to ya!

solomon said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Trollcakes said...

SOTL,

Well, I hope you do consider me a friend and I am so sorry for the abuse you've recieved; those pharasees should know that they have tendered their witness to the world, and it does no service to Christ, nor does it even live up to their own articles of faith.

After the sex scandal in my Sangha's leadership, I had to take a powder from attending; I didn't even know what to feel anymore. Even now, I meet with a small group in homes to practice the sadhana; so I am still protective against being urged into blind unity and kowtowing to self-appointed leaders.

There is a verse I remember from so long ago regarding where "two or more are gathered in my name, there I will be also (hope I'm not bubbling it)." If nothing else, you can rely on that, dear.

Trollcakes said...

bumbbling I mean.

Tim said...

Brady & 4545,

The fact of the matter is that there are far fewer die hard supporters of this administration than you believe. The majority is not concerned one way or the other, however the truth will bring many people out of their shells. On the 25th that will become more than apparent. If a fiasco such as the Communication Committee and the pat answers;

"Who told you that?"
"I don't know"
"We'll get back to you on that."
"Next Question."
"That's not true."
"We didn't know."
"We didn't pray."
"We don't have enough time for that"
"This needs to be the last question"
"The buffet ends at 3:00."
"Where's Waldo?"

Quite a few folks will become concerned with the direction or lack thereof that is exhibited.

Just wanted to make sure you weren't too surprised at how far support has dwindled since the last standing "O".

sickofthelies said...

I honestly don't think that Jesus would expect me to be around people who are cruel and hateful on a regular basis.

Jesus knows my limitations. He, above all, knows that I have no business around people who would laugh in my face, who would look the other way when a pedophile is in the lose. He knows how I have been betrayed with my " floating file". These occurances do not strenghten my Christian walk. They tear it down.

I'm much better off watching DR. R. on Love worth Finding.

But thank you for caring.

Trollcakes said...

Tim,

I thank you for your integrity and longsuffering in your pursuit of truth and accountability. You are a gentleman and measure in your words. May you be blessed for your beautiful meekness and brave leadership.

Trollcakes said...

SOTL,

I understand beyond any measure that may be stated.

sickofthelies said...

tim,

What sweetcakes said.

:)

sickofthelies said...

sweetcakes,

What I WOULD be willing to do is to meet on Sundays in someone's home. No self-appointed pharasees, no millionaires club, no required counseling where the goons have the keys to the file cabinets, no bill clinton politics, no quivering lip, no twisted scripture. JUST worshipping Jesus, straight from the Bible.

If any of you know of such a "church" please email NASS, she can get in touch with me.

MOM4 said...

In With The King said...

"1. Change in music to a contemporary rock style - BBC is getting close.

Response: Half hymns/half new is our format. Rock style? Listen to some Petra and get back to me on "rock style at Bellevue"

Reply: Very few of the hymns have their original wording and/or music. Just because the name is the same, does not mean everything else is. They have even "jazzed" the great hymns of the faith.

2. Removal of hymn books; eliminating the choir - not yet, but the Praise Team does take center stage.

Response: Praise Teams were there with Whitmire. Where was the outcry then?"

I understand that Dr Whitmire was told he HAD to bring in a praise team. I know choir members who left over it. Why don't you ask "WHO" made Dr Whitmire bring it it?

3. Replacement of organ and piano with heavy metal instruments - doesn't matter if we have a piano or organ; you can't hear them over the drums.

Response: Drums are heavy metal? I learned something new.

Reply: Not only do the drums overpower the rest of the musicians, Jamie has his mike (not you Bratton) right under his dimples and he is all you hear - besides the drums) We used to have the drums behind a glass shield so as not to distract from the other instruments. What happened to it? AND the music style is changing in the YOUTH to more heavy metal.

I understand that Dr Gaines has been solicitating buyers for the organ? If he is not planning on getting rid of it, WHY does he have an eye out for a buyer?

4. Repetitive singing of praise lyrics - good ole 7/11 choruses

Response: see #1

Reply: OK, so why are we singing the same chants over and over - standing 30 minutes of the service while Donna Gaines claps and sways to the new age drivel?

5. Eliminating of business meeting, church committees, council of elders, board of deacons, etc. - when was the last business meeting???

Response: We never had Business meeting under Dr. Rogers (at least in the last 15 years). We have one on March 25. Last I heard, we had 160 Deacons.

I remember business meetings - oh yeah, the last one was when we were deceived by the search committee and voted in the crown prince of the almighty dollar.

6. The pastor, or a new leader with a few assistants, usually four, take charge of all church business - Gaines, Coombs, Daugherty, Smith, enter your personal favorite here.

Response: See Committee on Committee Report on March 25.

Reply: and how does a normal member - not a millionare - get a copy of the Committee on Committee Report or any other report supposedly available to the congregation?

7. A repetitive 40-day PDC study program stressing psychological relationships with each other, the community or the world begins - the College Dept "revisited" the Purpose Drive Life book.

Response: Dr. Rogers led PDL during his tenure. Where was the outcry then?

Reply: The PDL series was instituted under Mark Dougharty while Dr Rogers was on medical leave - check it out.

8. Funded budgeted programs are abandoned, or ignored, with ambiguous financial reports made.- we'll see what they say at the "business meeting" coming up on the 24th. The FUMC donation could be under this heading.

Response: Be there March 25. Total transparency coming.

Reply: IF it is to be total transparency, will Steve Tucker reveal a line item report of where his 5 million dollar budget is going?

9. Sunday morning, evening and/or Wednesday prayer meetings are changed to other times; some may even be eliminated - watch and see.

Response: No indication this is happening

Reply: We have already changed Sunday School to BFC, who was responsible for that?

10. Sunday School teachers are moved to different classes, or replaced by new teachers more sympathetic with the changes being implemented - ask Riad Saba his take on this.

Response: Riad used his teaching position to openly criticize his pastor and the church. That is not the place to do that. I guess that is why blogs where created? Teachers are to teach God's Word.

Reply: The teachers who are Gaines supporters openly criticize members of the congregation and demonize the "troublemakers", so tell me what the difference is please?

11. The name "Sunday School" is dropped and classes are given new names - it's been "Bible Fellowship" for awhile now.

Response: Once again, Dr. Rogers. He must have been a Warrenite???

Reply: Once again, see who was responsible for that???

12. Crosses and other traditions Christian symbols may be moved from both the inside and outside of the church building. The pulpit may also be removed - if the 3 crosses go missing, I'm outta there!

Response: The three crosses can withstand a 170 mph wind.

Reply: At one point, the cloth with the cross on the pulpit was removed and put back after someone asked about it. Can you tell me why?

13. In accordance with Dr. Warren's instructions, new version Bibles are used; or noly verses flasshed on the screen are referenced during regular services. - what version is Steve using?

Response: If you have to ask what version of the Bible Steve is using, do you attend regularly? He uses the NAS. He also quotes the NIV, KJV, NKJV as well. The original Bible was not in English. If you want KJ or die, go to an Independent Baptist church

Reply: Is the scripture presented on the IMAG verbatim? Are the sermon scriptures used in context? See "former pastor's" posts. Very telling!!

14. PDC films, purchased from Saddleback, precede or are used during regular services.

Response: Have not seen evidence of that

Reply: What are the youth and children watching?


15. The decor, including the carpets, may be changed to eliminate any resemblance to the former church - our carpet and seats are pretty new; this may not happen for awhile.

Response: Dr. Rogers picked the colors (not my favorite) we have now and I believe we will get 15-20 years out of our current decor.

Reply: Dr Rogers office had been redone shortly prior to his retirement. I saw it - it was very nice. Why was it not good enough for Steve Gaines? Just give him time, he will change the worship center whether it needs it or not!

16. The words "Church" is often taken from the name of the church, and the church may be called a "campus". Denominational names may also be removed.

Response: Bellevue Baptist Church - always has been, always will be

Reply: How do YOU know that? Why is it being referred to by the leadership as Bellevue Baptist Fellowship?

17. An emphasis on more fun and party sessions for the youth - I don't have kids so I can't speak to this, but didn't the Singles have a "Hollywood New Year's Eve" party?

Response: Call Phil Newberry or Tim Shelton

Reply: "Hollywood" parties are a trademark of PDC - the emphasis is that "you too can be a star"

18. Elimination of altar calls or salvation invitations at the close of the services.

Response: Alter calls still given. We give alter calls at bake sales

Reply: Time will tell (and it is ALTAR)

19. The elimination or such words as "unsaved", "lost", "sin", "Hell", "Heaven" and other gospel verities from the pastor's messages - I do know Steve only makes "mistakes". Guess that beats calling it "sin."

Response: I hear the words "sin" and "hell" most sermons

Reply: Steve Gaines has never admitted that he sinned against any of the people he has sinned against so he must not take it too seriously.

20. The reclassification of the saved and lost to the "churched" and "unchurched".

Response: Not happening to my knowledge. Ask the folks in EE if they use these terms.

Reply: Again, Time will tell, but the term "unchurched" has been used from the pulpit.


21. The marginalizing or ostracizing of all who are not avid promotors of the new Purpose Driven program - "If you don't like it, find another church"

Response: Those who have left did not leave due to this "PDL movement at Bellevue" dream. When they were unable to worship or serve at Bellevue, they found a church home where they could worship and serve.

Reply: NOT! Many left over the PDL style of worship and music, many more left over the lies and deceptions from the pulpit. Most are holding onto their membership in order to cast a VOTE when the time comes.

22. Closed meetings between the pastor and chosen staff members without any reports made to the general membership - if this is happening, I'm pretty uncomfortable with that.

Response: See Committee on Committee Report on March 25.

Reply: No report in 15 months.

23. Open hostility to members who do not openly embrace the new program, or who may have left for another church. - Check with Mark Sharpe and Josh Manning. They've been pretty beat up. Also, IDC receives nasty emails all the time.

Response: To my knowledge, Mark Sharpe left on his own. I have seen Richard Emerson recently at Bellevue. Josh does not even live here does he? How about petitions that are based on bad information? Is that not nasty?

Reply: Mark was "kicked to the curb" and many others have as well. Start asking more people how they feel and what they know if you really want the truth.

Summary: Out of the "23 Ways You Know Your Church is Going PDL" handbook, I think Bellevue is 0 for 23. I may give you #23, but there is plenty of nasty on both sides.

So how is it we are going PDL? This seems to be the "topic of the decade". In the 70's, it was tongues. Warren, Calvinism, all these will pass.

Reply: I agree that Warrenism will pass as will all things. And the Anti-Christ will be ushered in and only the "remnant" of believers will know the truth and the rest are blinded by the light of the angel of light. (and Calvinism is alive and well at BBC)

Brady said...

Sickofthelies,

I did check with Jesus and He said, "Let him who is without sin cast the first stone." That sure holds true in your case. Since you won't be coming to BBC any longer I don't guess we have to worry about your opinions.

New BBC Open Forum said...

Review.

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