Let's try this again:
Resolution passed at the 2002 Southern Baptist Convention:
On the Sexual Integrity of Ministers
A separate thread for discussion of Calvinism vs. Arminianism is below.
Resolution passed at the 2002 Southern Baptist Convention:
On the Sexual Integrity of Ministers
A separate thread for discussion of Calvinism vs. Arminianism is below.
790 comments:
«Oldest ‹Older 601 – 790 of 790don, you must not be a member of Bellevue. PDL is not the issues at Bellevue at this point in time. That is why it's not the time nor place as we have other issues more pressing. I've asked you but you have not answered. Are you a member of Bellevue Baptist Church? Have you even joined with us for worship on Appling Road?
don,
Pass me some too! I read an article yesterday about Europe looking to go completely paperless with regard to money in the next 5 years! It says in Revelation that in the last days, people will pay for goods and services without money. Visa is planning to make big changes to the way services are paid for - I'll admit I use my ATM card all the time now. I rarely carry money around. So this one world church movement far reaches beyond BBC and Memphis; it's scary!
karen
I'm getting slee-eee-ee-eepyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy
Don,
Don't say that! I'm on SERIOUS decongestant medicine that makes me more dizzy than usual! :) I could fall asleep behind this desk and not feel one bit guilty.
karen
As I recall...Webb Williams was one who stayed silent about a confessed child molestor being on staff at BBC.
TR you are sounding more like JMO now....watch you don't blow your cover/s.
You don't dictate what Don can post. Plenty post that are not members. You don't rule the blog.
Karen
You would think that being a member of The Body of Christ in an open forum would suffice.
Shrug...
Cue the flying monkeys
11 days until OPENING DAY !!!
gmommylv said...
TR you are sounding more like JMO now....watch you don't blow your cover/s.
Anyone checked the blogg profile of Truth Rules and Just My Opinion.Same person.....
Nass anyone checking??????
Cue Mission Impossible theme
Lucy tried to tell us Sunday that the "leaders" were treating us like idiots. So this new JMO/TR/PLANT is throwing staff members names around again....AND suggesting we call them... again!!!! Guess he/she forgot what the leaders reported about Webb.....forgot about his/her "itty bitty temper" too! The replacement will arrive soon....under what name this time????
Lucy! I think the leaders need your help too!!!
Repost with spelling corrected (hey truth!) Anyone care to comment on the content?
aslansown said...
At the time we were about to go through PDL I had a discussion with the staff member responsible for Median adults (Webb Williams I think). I expressed concerne about participating in a popular movement as it made room for much emotion and little about knowing God deeply. The minister assured me that PDL was ok, but that Dr, Rogers had reservations about it and that he had to be convinced that the study would be beneficial to Bellevue. Dr Rogers did not launch the drive to study PDL, he merely gave his approval while stsing that the results would be up to God and that we would see where HE led us.
With this said, I would like to say that I feel that all of the discussion regarding the PDL and PDC poison is in and of itself pointless and a waste of our time. The problem with Bellevue is not from without but from within. We have lost our focus both here on the blog and generally within our church.
What we lack both individually and as a body is an absolute surrender to the Father. We have no depth of worship because we have no depth of Fellowship with Christ. We seek after an emotion driven worship service because we are not willing to give our whole intellect to studying our God (2Ti 2:15).
When we were praying for GBC and looking for a new pastor, I challenged my BFC to make sure we would not wake up one day and find ourselves a mile wide and 2 inches deep. Sadly the warning came too late.
11:58 AM, March 20, 2007
gmommylv,
I hope whoever the replacement for "JMO/TR/PLANT" is brings their critical thinking skills with them.....this is gettin old...
gmommylv, it doesn't pass the smell test when you deflect away from the truth. You indeed posted the $30,000 statement as fact. How can you challenge others while your honesty is in question?
Don, yes it is important that you are not a member. You speak as if you know the situation but you base it on this blog. How does that work?
You feared JMO because he challenged your dishonesty and now you challenge others. What does that say about those who proclaim that they were searching for the truth?
The thing about truth is it filters through a lot of gossip and slander.
Please allow me to speak to those who post here frankly and in love as my brothers and sisters in Christ.
Our Lord taught us in John 13:34-35
"A new commandment I give to you, that you love one another, even as I have loved you, that you also love one another.
By this all men will know that you are My disciples, if you have love for one another."
The vitriol that I see spewed forth at our fellow believers really concerns me on several fronts.
1) It concerns me for your own spiritual health.
and
2) It concerns me that it is demolishing any witness that many here may be able to have among the lost.
I've seen my pastor slandered ruthlessly.
I've seen my church's staff called a "goon squad."
I've seen my brothers and sisters who love and support our pastor called "howling moon bats."
I've seen Rick Warren called unspeakable things, up to and including being a tool of Satan.
Brothers and Sisters, we all need to get our eyes on Jesus, and stop slandering other members of the body of Christ, and LOVE one another so that all men will know that we are His disciples.
I love my pastor and am fully convinced that he is God's man for Bellevue.
I love the the church staff, and thank God for their service to our Lord and His church.
I love my brothers and sisters in Christ, even those who by their actions sometimes disappoint me.
And yes, I love Brother Rick Warren. His book, "The Purpose Driven Life" was meaningful to me personally, and I have also found it to be a useful tool in sharing my faith in Jesus Christ.
Recently the Lord led me to give a copy of that book to an acquaintance who was in deep turmoil. We discussed it from time to time as he went through the study. Through that he has committed his life to Christ, has joined a local church, and has been baptized. While at this moment I do not know if his wife has made a similar commitment, she is now also attending church with him.
So please, I do not ask you to heed my words, but heed the words of our Lord.
Ephesians 4 31-32.
"Let all bitterness and wrath and anger and clamor and slander be put away from you, along with all malice. Be kind to one another, tender-hearted, forgiving each other, just as God in Christ also has forgiven you. "
In His service and yours,
Derrick Calcote
dcalcote@msn.com
sitting here thinking:
re: SG's sermon on Acts 2 where he "inSINuates" that we are go give to others who dont' believe in what we believe.
I have this response:
If I want to give money to Planned Parenthood, INC. ( NOT that i EVER would) I'll write them a check myself. I dont' need BBC giving it to a 3rd party to give it to them.
Well, there you go again with the gossip and slander thing.......do your homework!!! ....I know NOTHING about 30,000 and that is not my platform. I do not post info about finances on this blog.
I care about is a SR. Pastor that disobeys,perverts and twists scripture to further his agenda.........That "pastor" does not take sexual sin seriously and does not understand that forgiveness includes repentance and consequenses. Call in your replacement.....
reposted due to errors!
aslansown,
I'll comment.
Aslansown said:
What we lack both individually and as a body is an absolute surrender to the Father. We have no depth of worship because we have no depth of Fellowship with Christ. We seek after an emotion driven worship service because we are not willing to give our whole intellect to studying our God.
Your concerns are what bothers the PDC critics. I am afraid it is inside your church, and what you posted above is the by-product. On savingbellevue.com there are some very good links on Church Growth Movement I would recommend you at least be informed and discerning regarding PDC.
Thanks for praying for GBC last year. Please know we are praying faithfully for BBC. I am sorry so many people are hurting, and I will continue to pray for healing.
Amy,
I am very familiar with PDC,PDL and GCM.
My concern is that we seem to be using criticism of these movements to replace our personal responsibility to The Body of Christ. It is like the person that blames the carrier of chicken pox for our child's illness when we have neglected to make sure that their vaccinations were current.
Bonita, Does God speak today? Please read what I have written here on this very subject that happened with my own mother (also my best friend) before and after she died. I pray that it will be a blessing to you.
http://coffeetradernews.blogspot.com/2006/12/does-god-speak-today.html
(Just copy the url into your browser, I can't do link thingies in comments for some strange reason)
Amy,
My concernes are best summerized by the Apostle Pual in Galations. He was conemning of the Judaisers, but was most concerned by the lack of spiritual discernment and growth of the churches in Galatia. He held them personnaly responsible for the state of error in which they found themselves. In fact he was highly critical of them for allowing themselves to be carried away by false doctrine (Gal. 3)
I am in no way attempting to diminish or excuse the state in which we find ourselves. I am asking all of us to allow The Spirit to do His work in us to bring aboout healing and restoration, by focusing on the root of the problem rather than a perceived conspiricy. There are elements of spiritual and scriptural error in these movements, but they are not the root of our problem at BBC or any other portion of The Bride of Christ.
Again, RW is not our problem. We are.
Don, Acts 20 convicted my soul about 3 years ago reading alone in my LR. I had been actively promoting seeker "theology". As I was becoming convicted, the Lord used that verse to send a spear through my heart.
I knew reading that verse that I had to search out the FULL Counsel of God. I am still searching it out and what a glorious journey! (I want NO blood on my hands)
Thanks for posting those verses.
Because TRUTH bears repeating :
ACTS 20; 26-32
Paul declaring that he is not guilty of the blood of all men...becuase he has preached " all " of the counsel of GOD..ALL OF IT
not just the love and good feelings stuff
Wherefore I take you to record this day, that I am pure from the blood of all men. 27 For I have not shunned to declare unto you all the counsel of God. 28 Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood. 29 For I know this, that after my departing shall grievous wolves enter in among you, not sparing the flock. 30 Also of your own selves shall men arise, speaking perverse things, to draw away disciples after them. 31 Therefore watch, and remember, that by the space of three years I ceased not to warn every one night and day with tears. 32 And now, brethren, I commend you to God, and to the word of his grace, which is able to build you up, and to give you an inheritance among all them which are sanctified.
truth rules wrote:
"If I recall you were the one so adamant that Donna Gaines got $30,000. And that was false as well. Your statement was "The disbursment DID occur, so if someone tells you it didn't, they are telling a falsehood - again." And now we know that this didn't happen. Those who attended the budget meeting heard the question asked and answered. You were wrong then and now."
Are you certain about that? The person who claimed to have witnessed the order to cut the check seemed very certain about it. Now, will that person ever come forward? Probably not. People with information that could damage the administration seem to get cold feet when push comes to shove. Wonder why that is?
But until I see proof to the contrary, I will continue to believe someone with no apparent agenda over someone with a very big agenda.
NASS
Truth wrote: "One of the more interesting aspects of her writing was that she found that by bringing all our burdens and laying them at Christ's feet that we were making worship man centered."
Would you please copy that part of Tamara's book and e-mail it to me. I would like to see where that teaching is in her book. (That I have read, btw)
My e-mail is in the meta. Also, you can use the html version of her book to copy the part you quoted above.
Aslansown said,
I am very familiar with PDC,PDL and GCM.
My concern is that we seem to be using criticism of these movements to replace our personal responsibility to The Body of Christ. It is like the person that blames the carrier of chicken pox for our child's illness when we have neglected to make sure that their vaccinations were current.
Aslansown,
I see your point and I think it's a very good one. I think it's our responsibility to the Body of Christ to be discerning and accountable to each other for our actions-staff and members alike. Your right, it's not fair to put all the blame on a CGM when things go in a bad direction when folks have been asleep at the wheel.
I stated above in a post the proposed Bylaws last year were a wake up call to a lot of other issues that went on when we were a fat and happy church.
NASS, the question was asked twice at the budget meeting. It was stated that there were no money given to Donna Gaines, no secretary was paid for on her behalf either but that her travel expenses as well as some others were paid for by the church for the India trip. The $30,000 was the total budget to be used for the trip. It would include the purchase of shirts ($40 per) and food for the meetings. Many of these women needed clothing and had to walk to get to the meetings. That was the reason for shirts and the provision of food. Also, while on Donna Gaines, the church does pay for the upstreaming on the website of her Bible studies. The feeling was this is money well spent to carry the gospel around the world via webcast. The church receives emails from around the world thanking the church for providing Donna's Bible study. There was no doubt in my mind that the $30,000 paid to Donna as posted on this blog was nothing more than gossip. Check you source for clarification.
lnogDerrick Calcote...
said, "And yes, I love Brother Rick Warren. His book, "The Purpose Driven Life" was meaningful to me personally, and I have also found it to be a useful tool in sharing my faith in Jesus Christ."
Mr. Calcote,
I address you with an humble spirit and mean no disrespect...so please take my comments in the way they are intended and presented.
Why would you use a book which you know to be extremely controversial...and there is tremendous doubt to some as to its validity and accuracy in the presentation of our Lord, as a tool is sharing your faith in Jesus Christ, when you have at your disposal the Bible...God's own Word?
I must ask you if you have even searched through the 'pastors.com' website and read the things in there by Rick Warren and the pastors trained by Rick Warren? Have you seen "Filled With the Spirit" by Smity...the video used and endorsed by Rick Warren to open the 2006 Youth Conference? Are you familiar with 'Purple Haze', the song Rick Warren actually sang himself to open the celebration of his 25 years at Saddleback?
Can you not see that the church is becoming 'worldly' and the world is becoming 'churchy' as a result of Rick Warren's purpose driven movement and Bill Hybel's seeker sensitive movement?
Last but not least, why don't you use the Bible (only) to share your faith in Jesus Christ instead of words by mere man?
Do you not feel a little embarrassed to admit on a blog being read nation wide that you used this book as a witnessing tool in lieu of the Bible? You did not mention the Word of God, by the way.
Again, I mean no disrespect in my post to you. I do readily admit however, that I am always a little offended as a child of God to learn that a brother/sister in Christ will turn to Rick Warren (Bill Hybels, etc.) and his words before or instead of God's Word. My heartrate does escalates a little on this...solely because I dearly love Jesus Christ and am offended in his behalf when I see this. I am especially surprised to see your post about this and feel let down because of it.
My husband, like you, is also a deacon. He stood for Jesus Christ against the teaching of Rick Warren and you know the rest of the story. God should never have to share the pulpit with man...never.
If I offend you, please understand it is not intentional. I hope you will see the error in what you are doing.
Ima
NASS, by the way did you get gift certificate that I sent to you?
"Please allow me to speak to those who post here frankly and in love as my brothers and sisters in Christ."
As a perveyor of a path whose chief aim is to accentuate both wisdom and compassion, you are a gentleman, sir.
"The vitriol that I see spewed forth at our fellow believers really concerns me on several fronts."
"1) It concerns me for your own spiritual health."
I think what the truthseekers are confronting is a loss of trust in their leadership; and it cannot be argued, nor is it even visited by your ilk, as to why that is not a legitimate response from deeply introspective and spiritual people. Given the repeated foibles and song and dance stage management (qualifier: Coombs "congregationally approved" ordination vote), the burden has always been upon the leadership--who unwittingly birthed the issues in the first place--to show contrition and seek to renew trust and openness with the flock.
BBC has simply yeilded to stage management and damage control, and it only adds wood to the fire.
That is not wisdom, love nor anything remotely spiritual or divine. It is ego-grasping and self-dillusion. People of a true spiritual temperament will do what he or she thinks is right, no matter what, and will not be wooed or goaded into just being a team player.
"2) It concerns me that it is demolishing any witness that many here may be able to have among the lost."
No, as a non-Christian who has too often been on the short end of smiling church people wearing out their "saved by grace ticket"--in business and in my personal life--I generally distance myself from such. I haven't entered a church for 20 years, except for funerals, until I came to BBC (not that I'll be back).
Yet these Christians, who have the strength of character, who really believe in something enough to face alienation and hostility from their own, are obviously incredibly brave and introspective. It is not wisdom to parse their spiritual discernment and doing so indicts yours, sir; no matter how kindly you do so.
I've seen my pastor slandered ruthlessly.
Do you consider this slander?
For a period of six months, Pastor Gaines not only did nothing in response to a pedophile in his midst, he was incurious as to the whereabouts and duties of the man.
If you do, go here:
dictionary.com and look up slander.
Then, rebuke Coombs and the PC, because they started the rumor.
"I've seen my church's staff called a 'goon squad.'"
Several ugly confrontations warrant the colorful signifier. Were you as hard on the events that spawned the designation? If it walks like a duck...
"I've seen my brothers and sisters who love and support our pastor called 'howling moon bats.'"
There are worse names for the blithe and loyal.
"I've seen Rick Warren called unspeakable things, up to and including being a tool of Satan."
Maybe he's not a tool of Satan, rather perhaps just a tool. I've known some tools in my day.
"Brothers and Sisters, we all need to get our eyes on Jesus, and stop slandering other members of the body of Christ, and LOVE one another so that all men will know that we are His disciples.
I love my pastor and am fully convinced that he is God's man for Bellevue."
Well, now there's your Ace--no one can argue with God's man, now can they? May you expound upon why anyone else might assume that he's "God's man," or should we just take your word for it?
So, we got tools of Satan and tools of God, but I prefer to just think of them all as tools--a priori (because I said so).
"I love the the church staff, and thank God for their service to our Lord and His church."
Amen
"I love my brothers and sisters in Christ, even those who by their actions sometimes disappoint me."
I'm sure the feeling is mutual.
Please show your love and support for Brother Steve today!
Come on gang. It's time for the majority to speak out and make their feelings known.
Amy said...
"I emailed the excutive pastor about my concerns and he emailed me back assuring me GBC’s vision did not include being a PDC. This I found this:"
Thank you Amy. I am MOST ASTOUNDED by this: "emailed me back ASSURING ME GBC's vision did not include being a PDC." THE LIES!!! I am most astounded by lies escaping the mouths of these pastors, ministers, preachers...whatever title one would most like to attach to them. I, like you with your experience, will never forget the first time I realized that my pastor was lying! I knew that nobody would believe me. I even knew better than to try to confide in anybody about it! It was one of the most troubling times I have even been involved in.
amy said
I responded to your post about GBC last night this am. Have you read it?
Piglet says:
Yes, I did. Thanks for filling me in. I always knew the vote was over changing the bylaws to provide for an elder led system of church government but was not clear on the rest. It makes perfect sense. Thanks!!!
ima,
Thank you for your post.
I am not hear to defend everything that Bro. Warren has done, written or said. But I do affirm his as my brother in Christ and do take exception with those who call him a tool of Satan.
Throughout my life as a Christian, I have used many tools which the Lord has provided to share my faith.
Obviously I have often used only the Bible. This is most effective when witnessing with someone face to face.
I have used gospel tracts, with both scriptures and illustrations in them. Most frequently the Evangelism Explosion tract.
At times I have used various books.
The Lord used the book, "Mere Christianity" to lead a dear friend of mine to a saving knowledge of Christ.
I have also used "More Than a Carpenter" and "Evidence that Demands a Verdict."
This individual I know only casually and he is in another state. The Lord through His Holy Spirit impressed on me that in this particular case, "The Purpose Driven Life" would be meaningful to this person.
I was obedient to do this and the Lord has blessed it by calling this person to be saved.
I wish I were at liberty to share some of the background of this person and his wife, but I am not able to do so. Suffice it to say, that many of my brothers and sisters in Christ would have presumed that these people would not have been receptive to the Gospel message at all, and in fact would have presumed them to be very hostile.
So the short answer is, I shared that with him because I felt the Lord's leading to do so.
The person got committed his life to Christ, to God be the glory, so I am not inclined to second guess my act of obedience.
In His service and yours,
Derrick Calcote
truth rules said
When did we get so proud that we cannot find the means to take Christ to the world. I would rather have a church that is friendly to sinners that one that limits the Gospel only to the saved. The Word is still preached at Bellevue and I'm all for more coming to hear that Word preached.
Piglet says:
I notice you said Jesus went OUT. He didn't try to lure sinners into the church by appealing to their tastes. If we overhaul the church to appeal to the unsaved, then where, may I ask, do christians go to be fed and to grow?
Evangelism is great. Go out, convert them, and THEN bring them in.
Dr.Rogers fed us meaty sermons and then held an invitation for those attending who might be lost. I dare say that a pastor should EQUIP the saints.
truth rules wrote:
"NASS, the question was asked twice at the budget meeting. It was stated that there were no money given to Donna Gaines, no secretary was paid for on her behalf either but that her travel expenses as well as some others were paid for by the church for the India trip."
I heard it.
"The $30,000 was the total budget to be used for the trip."
I must have missed the part about it being the "total budget" for the trip.
"It would include the purchase of shirts ($40 per) and food for the meetings. Many of these women needed clothing and had to walk to get to the meetings. That was the reason for shirts and the provision of food. Also, while on Donna Gaines, the church does pay for the upstreaming on the website of her Bible studies. The feeling was this is money well spent to carry the gospel around the world via webcast. The church receives emails from around the world thanking the church for providing Donna's Bible study."
Again, I heard it.
"There was no doubt in my mind that the $30,000 paid to Donna as posted on this blog was nothing more than gossip.
Then you're satisfied, and nothing would likely change your mind. It doesn't make a conflicting account "gossip." You know, that word gets tossed around rather freely here whenever someone disagrees or doesn't want to consider s/he could be mistaken. And why, if the explanation was so innocent, did Steve Tucker respond to someone's question about it with no information, only with loud, angry accusations of "spreading gossip"?
"Check you source for clarification."
I already did but intend to again.
I noted that DC skipped the question about whether or not the church paid five figures for a set for the filming of DG's "women's studies" which she will potentially profit from the sale of. He began to read it but then discarded it.
sbs,
You're not going to post that every 10 minutes. Once or twice a day is sufficient.
NBBCOF
amy said
I don't know when the CGM hit full tilt, but I don't think because a church studied PDL or 40 Days of Community, it meant it was willing to change it's complete structure to Rick Warren's model. I can't imagine Pastor Rogers telling a member, "If you don't like it here anymore leave" and being dismissive of someone's concerns.
Piglet says:
Amy, I thought it strange that the entire church went through this book at the same time - I didn't recall us EVER doing that.
I didn't find PDL offensive by itself, just very surface, like kindergarten christianity, full of the basics for the new christian, in my opinion. At the time, I wasn't overly impressed but not overly concerned either.
My concern comes from the tool kit and the attitudes and secret agendas of pastors who applaud Rick Warren. I also see his attempts to pull all religions together under one tent and his endorsement of pro-homosexual, pro-abortion democrat Obama very revealing.
His direction is clear.
amy said
But, we as a church are also obligated to reveal all of God's word, even the parts that are politically un-correct and make us un-popular with the world. To truly grow as a believer and receive all the blessings of a relationship with God, you need to make precious all of God's Word, not just the part that appeals to the lost.
Piglet says:
AMEN!!
Anyone here remember Ashley Smith? She supposedly used PDL to save the man who held her hostage.
We are talking Larry King show, Fox, CNN, etc interviews with Warren and Ashley. She even got a book deal.
Only one tiny problem. Eventually the truth came out: She gave him methampethamine when he requested weed. He also let her leave at 9 am and she came back at that time without contacting police. Then we find out later that Nichols, the criminal, converted to Islam in prison!~
Unfortuantly, this part of the story never made it to Larry King or to headline news. I wonder why?
Karen said
So that's the part I'm talking about - could Dr. Rogers have been wrong in his support of Rick Warren?
Piglet says:
If all I had was PDL, I would have little problem with Rick Warren.
I just have to believe that Dr. Rogers could not have known his ultimate agenda.
NASS,
You've got mail!
Thank you
NASS,
You allow those other petitioners to advertise their petitions, please show equal time to the opposition. Let us show our support for our pastor. Are you afraid of the truth?
sbs,
You've got equal time. You posted the link to your petition, and I have no problem with that. I didn't delete the first posting. I simply stated that you're not going to post it every 10 minutes, and I stand by that.
NBBCOF
sbs,
Please stop the e-mail games. I'm not amused.
1Cor 9:22
To the weak became I as weak, that I might gain the weak: I am made all things to all [men], that I might by all means save some.
What about people who are saved by simply listening to Christian music? What about individuals who come to the Lord because they respond to what they see of God in His creation? I know Christians who were saved by reading "The Hiding Place" by Corrie ten Boom, and "Run, Baby, Run," by Nicky Cruz, and others who were saved simply through God's use of another believer's testimony. Yes, it is the power of God's truth that draws them -- but what about all those people in the first century who had no written Word? Were they not genuinely saved because a printed copy of the Bible was not used?
God can use anything to draw someone who's lost to Himself. Praise God that we have deacons at Bellevue who are sharing the Good News with others and God is saving the lost -- by all means.
aslansown said
With this said, I would like to say that I feel that all of the discussion regarding the PDL and PDC poison is in and of itself pointless and a waist of our time. The problem with Bellevue is not from without but from within. We have lost our focus both here on the blog and generally within our church.
Piglet says:
I respectfully disagree. We need to see this for what it is - a conspiracy of SATAN to destroy the church. The sheep are starving or driven from the church while the lost are lured in and fed self help sermons that make excuses for sin by calling it a mistake. This is happening all over. We are not fighting flesh and blood, but a crafty and subtle serpent that comes to us and says "Hath God said?"
This is too prevalent all over America. Our pastor is not the only one on an "annointed ego trip".
Have you gone to pastors.com?
Hear me out. I've told my kids that the best way to defeat the enemy is to blow his cover. Can you say the excuses for sin that we have seen and the willingness to unite with churches who serve his purposes by spreading lies does not go lock stepwith what PDC has shoved down the throats of believers everywhere?
Aslansown said:
What we lack both individually and as a body is an absolute surrender to the Father. We have no depth of worship because we have no depth of Fellowship with Christ. We seek after an emotion driven worship service because we are not willing to give our whole intellect to studying our God (2Ti 2:15).
Piglet says:
I know who you are and do respect your opinions :). I do feel that what you stated is why this deception is so wide spread. Discussing the ramifications of this on a broader scale only exposes Satan and his plan. It should not keep us from dealing with it in our own midst.
It will take, as you said, a complete surrender to God and a saturation of His word to protect us. As we've discussed before - the full armor.
NASS,
I'm not trying to amuse you or irritate you. I don't want to pick a fight with anyone in CDI. I just want fairness for Brother Steve. The posts against him are plentiful. Please let those with my point of view show our love for a godly man.
Thank you
derrich calsote said
And yes, I love Brother Rick Warren. His book, "The Purpose Driven Life" was meaningful to me personally, and I have also found it to be a useful tool in sharing my faith in Jesus Christ.
Piglet says:
I don't doubt that the PDL book could be useful.
But before you smother Rick Warren with kisses, do you know what he is about?
His PEACE plan unites all faiths to rid the world of poverty, war, ,hunger,and disease without giving them the truth of the gospel (you know- arranging the deck chairs on the Titanic). Tell me how Rick will testify of the gospel out of a mosque?
He endorses liberal democrat Obama because of his social programs while ignoring Obama's support of gay marriage, open gays in the military, and gay clergy- while he proudly supports the right of a woman to choose death for their baby throughout nine months of pregnancy, and supports the hate crimes bill that will silence preachers who preach scripture as it is written.
Have you been to Pastors.com and read the posts there? The preachers who follow Warren sneak in their agendas secretly and drive out their sheep without remorse!! They are spiteful and bitter!
Warren came in with sheeps clothing as the author of PDL but his costume is ripped and torn.
Ok, if SG is the godly man you say he is, when is he going to come before the flock he is charged to shepherd with humble repentance for his less-than-Christlike behavior?
I'm waiting.
derrick said
I am not hear to defend everything that Bro. Warren has done, written or said. But I do affirm his as my brother in Christ and do take exception with those who call him a tool of Satan.
Piglet says:
What would you call a man who is hastening believers toward a one-world church - mischeivous?
You need to get over this "tool of Satan" phrase because I will not take it back and don't regret saying it.
Rick has been very subtle and whether he realizes it or not, is bringing prophecy to pass.
Interesting that Satan would START his agenda with a Baptist minister. Ingenious, actually,and it seems to be working on the best of us.
It does not surprise me that Gaines has such a loyal following after all he has done.
AND, unlike Don and Imaresistor,I AM a BBC member who reads my Bible AND the newspaper.
Get informed.
'You allow those other petitioners to advertise their petitions, please show equal time to the opposition. Let us show our support for our pastor. Are you afraid of the truth? "
Reminds me of the libs complaining about Rush when they own the major media :o>
SupportBroSteve,
Where do we send his support? Shall we send it via pro-abortionists or via pro-homosexuals? Or shall we send it via "pedophiles anonymous"?
Get off of this blog with your devilish propoganda. You are not welcome here.
"Support Bro.Steve" ...yeah...support the one who stole The LORD Jesus' tithes and offerings from Him and gave it to those who support that which God abhors. (And that just skims the surface of all that he has done to defame and deface our precious LORD and Savior Jesus Christ Who laid down His life for us!!!)
The LORD Jesus rebukes you.
I would like to retract the following:
Interesting that Satan would START his agenda with a Baptist minister. Ingenious, actually,and it seems to be working on the best of us.
***********************************
I am aware that it started in the garden.:)
Here is 1 Corinthians 9 in context
15But I have made no use of any of these rights, nor am I writing these things to secure any such provision. For I would rather die than have anyone deprive me of my ground for boasting. 16For if I preach the gospel, that gives me no ground for boasting. For necessity is laid upon me. Woe to me if I do not preach the gospel! 17For if I do this of my own will, I have a reward, but not of my own will, I am still entrusted with a stewardship. 18What then is my reward? That in my preaching I may present the gospel free of charge, so as not to make full use of my right in the gospel.
19For though I am free from all, I have made myself a servant to all, that I might win more of them. 20To the Jews I became as a Jew, in order to win Jews. To those under the law I became as one under the law (though not being myself under the law) that I might win those under the law. 21To those outside the law I became as one outside the law (not being outside the law of God but under the law of Christ) that I might win those outside the law. 22To the weak I became weak, that I might win the weak. I have become all things to all people, that by all means I might save some. 23I do it all for the sake of the gospel, that I may share with them in its blessings.
24Do you not know that in a race all the runners compete, but only one receives the prize? So run that you may obtain it. 25Every athlete exercises self-control in all things. They do it to receive a perishable wreath, but we an imperishable. 26So I do not run aimlessly; I do not box as one beating the air. 27But I discipline my body and keep it under control,[b] lest after preaching to others I myself should be disqualified.
IN context: Paul was a Jew who was commanded to take the Gospel to the Gentiles...the Corinthians were Genitles...this verse is NOT about using other teaching outside scripture.
Don and Imaresistor
I didn't mean to imply that you DON'T read the Bible or the newspaper.
(Actually,I watch the news)
piglet
As Charlotte the spider once weaved a message to another famous piglet..
I echo her finely woven sentiments..
" RADIANT "
&
" HUMBLE "
There ...
Hope that curls your tail !
hahahahahahahaha
No problems with me piggy !!!
Piglet..."I don't doubt that the PDL book could be useful."
Hey Piglet! You are right...it is useful for something. It makes a GREAT bonfire!!! That is truly the only thing I can think of it would be good for. That would be it's rightful place...fire! I received an email from a lady that read something I'd had to say...she had done some studying on Rick Warren. She emailed me to say that she had burned her PDL book and had made a bird 'thingie' to scare away birds with the purpose driven CDs and hung it on the outside of her picture window! Hahaha!!! She said she was ashamed to put either the book or the CDs in her yard sale! Don't blame her...I would be too!
Piglet,
It is inaccurate to say that Rick Warren endorses Obama.
Here is their statement on the subject off the Christian News Wire.
AKE FOREST, Calif., Nov. 29 /Christian Newswire/ -- Beginning tomorrow, Saddleback Church will host the second annual Global Summit on AIDS and the Church. As far as we know, this is the only conference focused on how the Church should respond to this global pandemic that has already infected 40 million people. To-date, more than 25 million have died, leaving 16 million orphans in Africa alone.
There will be nearly 60 speakers at the Summit from every walk of life – including medicine, science, the church and government – who are authoritative experts actively engaged in a leadership capacity in the response to HIV/AIDS.
Two of the participants, U.S. Senators Barack Obama (D-Ill) and Sam Brownback (R-Kan), represent two different political perspectives.
Though he is not a keynote speaker, Purpose Driven and Saddleback Church are acutely aware of the strong opposition to Democratic Senator Barack Obama being one of many featured participants on the program.
While knowledgeable about HIV/AIDS, the speakers at the Summit do not necessarily reflect the beliefs of Saddleback Church, its pastoral leadership or the congregation. As a result, we're not making an endorsement of Obama or any of the other speakers. Rather by coming to Saddleback, the Summit speakers are affirming and supporting the vital role of the Church in fighting the pandemic of HIV/AIDS.
In fact, the following disclaimer is printed at the front of the Summit syllabus: "We do not endorse everything every speaker might say. With nearly 60 speakers representing different backgrounds and expertise, you'll undoubtedly hear statements you disagree with. We will, too. Each speaker represents himself or herself, not Saddleback Church or the Purpose Driven Network."
Obama was invited to share his views on AIDS, not abortion or any other issue. And he is not speaking to the Saddleback congregation, but rather to a conference comprised of ministry leaders, social workers and health professionals all gathered to focus on this one topic – the HIV/AIDS pandemic. Let it be made very clear that Pastor Warren and Saddleback Church completely disagree with Obama's views on abortion and other positions he has taken, and have told him so in a public meeting on Capitol Hill.
Anyone who has read The Purpose Driven Life, specifically chapters two and 22, knows the Warrens are staunchly pro-life, because it's the biblical position. In a letter to all pastors in the Purpose Driven network before the 2004 election, Pastor Warren called this one of the five non-negotiable moral issues, writing, "God's purpose for your life precedes your birth, according to Psalm 139, so abortion short-circuits God's purpose for that human being. To be truly pro-life means far more than opposing abortion. It also means doing everything in our power to keep people alive, so they might respond to the grace of Jesus Christ. Sometimes that means working with people you disagree with. With AIDS killing 8,000 people a day, saving lives is more important to us than political alignment."
The speaker roster for the Global Summit on AIDS and the Church includes representatives from health organizations, non-government organizations (NGOs), humanitarian/relief efforts and ministries. Participants at the Summit will include Republicans and Democrats, Christians and non-Christians, pastors, business leaders and leaders from around the world, including the Harvard professor who did the landmark studies on abstinence and faithfulness to one's spouse as the best prevention against AIDS.
Kay Warren and Pastor Rick Warren will speak four times, including: "How God Got Our Attention," "What Your Church Can Do," "The Global PEACE Plan" and "Because Of Love." Rick Warren will share what it will take to S.T.O.P. the pandemic, including important controversial, but biblical behavioral elements: S-Save sex for marriage; T-Train men to treat women and children with respect; O-Offer treatment through churches; P-Pledge yourself to one partner for life.
Our goal has been to put people together who normally won't even speak to each other. We do not expect all participants in the Summit discussion to agree with all of our Evangelical beliefs. However, the HIV/AIDS pandemic cannot be fought by Evangelicals alone. It will take the cooperation of all – government, business, NGOs and the church. That is the purpose of this Summit – to marshal the policy of the government; the finances of business; the expertise of the health organizations; and the compassion, volunteerism and reach of the church in order to care for the sick and save lives.
************
And I see that you are still calling Brother Warren a tool of Satan and you want me to "get over it."
I would invite you to heed the words of our Lord.
"A new commandment I give to you, that you love one another, even as I have loved you, that you also love one another.
By this all men will know that you are My disciples, if you have love for one another."
Ephesians 4 31-32.
"Let all bitterness and wrath and anger and clamor and slander be put away from you, along with all malice. Be kind to one another, tender-hearted, forgiving each other, just as God in Christ also has forgiven you."
Piglet..."I didn't mean to imply that you DON'T read the Bible or the newspaper."
Don't go wallering in the mud over that one sweetie! I KNOW you know that I read my Bible! And I am sure Don does too! I've more important things to oink about than this!
imaresistor said...
Hey Piglet! You are right...it is useful for something. It makes a GREAT bonfire!!! That is truly the only thing I can think of it would be good for. That would be it's rightful place...fire!
Or I guess you could use it like I did. To lead someone to a saving knowledge of Christ.
Here are his words to me verbatim from an E-mail he sent.
"I have offered my life to the Lord Jesus Christ, prayed with an earnest heart for the forgiveness of my sins and asked to become a member of God's family.
Thank for you sending a book that has truly changed my life."
Moses was a very good man renown for his meekness. But one isolated incidence denied him entrance to the Caanan land with the children of Israel.
The people complained that there was no water and God told Moses while he and Aaron were lying face down at the door to the tent of meeting to speak to the rock and it would yield water for the people.
Moses in anger responded to the people, "Hear now, you rebels; shall we bring forth water for you out of the rock?" He struck the rock twice and water came forth abundantly.
The way he spoke denoted carnal self-importance in his guestion to the people. This cost Moses dearly. He had disobeyed God and offended the people.
Christ said that his disciples were to be wise as serpents. That means that one needs to be able to respond quickly in a moments notice. Under the Spirit's leadership there is a need to be sensitive at all times.
A preacher ministers to the needs of the people and the Spirit oversees that process. A minister's ego can easily get in the way of meeting peoples's needs.
I did a quick search of most of the sermons in the book of Acts and with a clock I timed the sermons as I read them aloud and to my surprise they were very brief and almost without exception they were interrupted by the hearers. If a preacher's carnal self-importance gets in the way he will take offence to interruptions. When Luke wrote Acts he appartently interviewed a
first hand witness to the event.
He seem to report, "As Peter was speaking the Holy Ghost feel on all them which heard the Word." It was a divine interruption. Carnal self-importance can get in the way of divine interruptions. Peter could have stopped them because he had not given his closing illustration and benediction. The Holy Spirit had other plans and one isolated incidence can make all the difference.
MaybeJustMaybe,
Thanks for the kind words.
It bothers me that people are so quick to slander their brothers in Christ.
It bothers me even more because I have seen first hand how these brothers who are slandered have been used by our Lord to further His kingdom.
And thank you also for bringing up Christian Music. The Lord has allowed me to use that as a tool to share His gospel with others.
NASS, I am sure you got my certificate. Can you prove that you didn't receive it? I am sure you get the point. There is no pay to prove something that didn't happen other than to know it didn't happen. You know you never received it but if I post that one of your friends who will be nameless tells me that you did get it you are left with no recourse. A lot like saying someone inside reported Donna receiving the $30,000 check. Which didn't happen.
I don't recall David beginning to read anything about the set. But as he said...if you still have an unanswered question to call him. WOW, a novel idea. Talking the time to search out the answer from one who will know. Oh, that's right, nobody against our church believes anything a leader says. And that my sister is sad.
lindon, why don't you continue on a few verses following as Paul writes against the complainers in the church. That may make some interesting reading for this blog.
"Faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the Word of God."
"God has chosen through the foolishness of preaching to save them which believe."
"Free from the law -- O happy condition!"
Try it ... you might like it.
I don't see anything there about saving people through music, PDL, drama..or any other means but by the preached Word.
Lindon,
I can't thank you enough for sharing "Does God Speak Today?" with me. God certainly DID speak to you....just as He has certainly spoken to me in times past. He has used the same way that He used with you so many times and even now He does it. I do treasure these times. I also treasure the times He has spoken to me in words before I have awakened from sleep.
Our God and Father simply doesn't fit into the box that so many have tried to put Him into by saying that He doesn't speak anymore except through His written Word or through sermons, etc. Perhaps He looks for the faith of a little bitty child in one that He shares these special times with. Perhaps He looks for those that will not destroy the experience by questioning and by intellect. Though He WANTS to test EVERYthing by His Word, He does not want to give out His pearls to be trampled on. How I hope that I never do such to Him. He has been so faithful to me. I love Him so very much....SO very much.
I don't know...but I know they surpass anything here on earth for they come from The One Who has condescended to speak to the tiny grains of sand that we are. We are nothing and He is EVERYthing. We have only been made "something" before Him because and ONLY because of Jesus.
Your Momma was precious, Lindon. I am so happy that you got to spend that time with her with The LORD Jesus present with the two of you.
There is nothing down here on earth that can compare to the riches that God gives to His children. Oh, what a Father. Oh, what a Savior.
Thanks, Dear Brother. Thank you so very very much. Stephen and I
both thank you, Lindon.
Stephen and Bonita
Come on gang. It's time for the majority to speak out and make their feelings known.
I think they already have been..don't ya think? Standing O's, "why can't we just forgive and move on?", etc etc.
I think everyone gets it by now.
"..."I don't doubt that the PDL book could be useful."
A friend of mine at church uses it to prop up his old work table in the basement. :o>
Derrick, that statement was made because so many Saddlebackers, who are in very conservative Orange Co, had a cow when he invited Obama there.
IT is a lot like his 'Syria' statement...after the fact.
allofgrace said...
I don't see anything there about saving people through music, PDL, drama..or any other means but by the preached Word.
7:23 PM, March 20, 2007
If this is the case, then Bellevue has had no business doing the Memphis Passion Play either in years past or now!
musicguy,
Take it up with God brother...He wrote the book.
I have the CD version of the PDL....it broke my CD Player :p
Makes a dandy coaster for my soda though :)
Then by all means they better find those people all over the country who have been saved after seeing one of these presentations and tell them that they are not really saved becaused the Gospel was presented to them through music and drama.
Brother,
I presented nothing to you but the Word. Argue with it if you want.
MusicGuy,
Excellent point. As I recall well over 1,000 people indicated they accepted Christ through the ministry of the Passion Play and Singing Christmas Tree this year alone.
The Lord blessed me by allowing me to be involved in the telephone counciling during the Singing Christmas Tree on Christmas Day and I was able to see some of these professions first hand.
As a random aside, I was sitting next to a dear brother in Christ, Chuck Taylor, who took the last call of the day. Although the person didn't call looking for salvation, Bro. Taylor lovingly turned the conversation there and over the course of about 30 minutes was able to lead this lady to Christ.
He and I were the last ones there. He was sharing the gospel and I was praying for him and the lady on the phone.
While Bro. Taylor would be the first to say that it is the Lord working through him, I must say that he shares the gospel as well or better than anyone I have ever seen. It was inspiring and frankly convicting at the same time.
But getting back to your point... the Lord used the Singing Christmas Tree to set up that divine appointment.
Moses was a very good man and a very good man spoke rashly to the people and struck the rock twice. In a single moment of carnal self-importance he lost a chance to enter the promise land.
God can and does use all means to set up, as you say a "divine appointment" to hear His Word...but the LORD says, "Faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the Word of God."...I'll stand on that rather than human experience.
Socwork said: Ok, if SG is the godly man you say he is, when is he going to come before the flock he is charged to shepherd with humble repentance for his less-than-Christlike behavior?
Excellent point, socwork. This is where the rubber meets the road. I find it difficult to believe that the Holy Spirit is letting him rest at all. I am uneasy when I even think I hurt or mislead someone. To truly be a leader, I believe he would address these issues sincerely and completely, with repentance and humility, then let the church make the decision what to do next.
"Free from the law -- O happy condition!"
Try it ... you might like it."
Matthew 5
17"Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. 18For truly, I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not an iota, not a dot, will pass from the Law until all is accomplished. 19Therefore whoever relaxes one of the least of these commandments and teaches others to do the same will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever does them and teaches them will be called great in the kingdom of heaven. 20For I tell you, unless your righteousness exceeds that of the scribes and Pharisees, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven.
Musicguy,
To compare the Passion Play to PDL ideas is like calling a cat a dog.
The Passon Play...based on scripture. PDL is twisted scripture.
Nass
I thought JMO was banned from the blog....Since Truth Rules and JMO are the same person and could possible be Derrick Calcote since he has junmped right in there with both feet Why are they being allowed to cause nothing but aggravation on the blog....Since Derrick Calcote and Bratton signed the petition first it is they who are trying to cause the turmoil. Thing must be getting tough on their Pastor Gaines for them to get so hot headed tonight...The Cat must be getting close to their birdie.
"twisted scripture"
Wasn't that a bad 80's hair band?
Trollcakes,
That hairband is Twisted Sister :). But their song "We're Not Gonna Take It" does seem fitting for how many of us feel about whats going on at Bellevue :).
What exactly is this PDL?
Pwaise da Lord?
I can no longer sit on the sidelines and watch the unfairness of this blog. I see where posters are allowed to call others derogatory names only if they are part of the dissenters group. The faithful members like Derrick, JMO, Mike Bratton, and others are either banned or constantly attacked. Do you guys fear the truth so much that you'd rather reside in your bitterness and ignorance rather than open your eyes and ears to others opinions?
This Sunday I doubt that the dissenters will be a trickle in the audience. Yes you will come to this board and announce the majority of Bellevue is blind to what is happening. But if we are so unenlightened then why does it bother you that these faithful post on this open forum?
Mr. Calcote,
Seems you are trying to get my attention...so,you have it. You trying to prove a point? That 'The Purpose Driven Life' is a good tool to bring the lost to Christ? Okay...let us dissect this. You didn't want to use the Bible because it might offend your friend...that is what you said. He would not be receptive to God's Word, or so you implied. However, something as watered down as Rick Warren's book, 'The Purpose Driven Life' would work because it wouldn't be as offensive as the Bible. Right? Need to get through to this man by some means other than the Bible...and Rick Warren's book will do the trick. Okay...so you give this man the book...Warren's book. Let us look at the first page...the first one will do. We don't even have to go beyond the first page Mr. Calcote. It says...
"It All Starts with God"...okay nothing wrong with that. Then, "For everything, absolutely everything, above and below, visible and invisible,...everything got started in him and finds its purpose in him. Colossians 1:16" (He left out'rank after rank after rank of angels') This text is shaped by the hand of a pastor (or so he says), a paraphrase called The Message. Okay…so far we have Warren’s book in lieu of God’s Word AND a paraphrase of the Bible, man’s word as he sees it and how man has written it, not God’s Word inspired by Him. Oh…and even there Warren left some of it out. Two strikes so far. What does the King James Bible say? It says, “For by him were all thing created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:” Several things to expound upon here…everything got started in him? No, all thing were created BY him. Finds its purpose in him? No…everything was created FOR him. Purpose? Not there. Purpose is not there. Hear me Mr. Calcote? Purpose is not there. Mr. Warren used fifteen different translations in his book…all to benefit him and his agenda. They are The Amplified Bible, The Contemporary English Version, God’s Word Translation, King James Version, Living Bible, The Message, New American Bible, New American Standard Bible, New Century Version, New International Version, New Jerusalem Bible, New Living Translation, New Revised Standard Version, New Testament in Modern English, and Today’s English Version. And then he uses his own paraphrases too. Why does he use so many translations? Well, he says two reasons: (1) Different translations have limitations, and (2) more importantly, we often miss the full impact of familiar Bible verses, because they are so familiar. (Go figure…) Then he adds that he has used paraphrases in order to help you to see God’s truth in
new, fresh ways. (By all means, we need Mr. Warren to show us how to do things anew don’t we! Like transitioning established churches to a purpose driven church. I’d say that is new and fresh. Okay, let us move on to the next thing in the book, page 1. Just below Colossians 1:16, it says “Unless you assume a God, the question of life’s purpose is meaningless.” That was it… a God? Listen to that again…it doesn’t say ‘Unless you assume God’. It says,
Unless you assume a God’. Catch it? Big difference in ‘God’ and ‘a God’. ‘God’ means ‘God the Father’. A God means ‘idol’…you know, like what Moses found the Israelites worshipping when he came down from the mountain…graven images. That is the difference. Big difference wouldn’t you say? This is what Rick Warren put on the first page of his book, page 17. Go look. Oh, I almost forgot. This last one was written by Bertrand Russell, atheist.
What? What was that? Did I say atheist? Let me look…yes! It says Bertrand Russell, atheist. So, Bertand Russell also said, “About two years later, I became convinced that there is no life after death, but I still believed in God, because the "First Cause" argument appeared to be irrefutable. At the age of eighteen, however, shortly before I went to Cambridge, I read Mill's Autobiography, where I found a sentence to the effect that his father taught him the question "Who made me?" cannot be answered, since it immediately suggests the further question "Who made God?" This led me to abandon the "First Cause" argument, and to become an atheist.” – (Bertrand Russell, Autobiography of Bertrand Russell, Vol. 1, 1967.) Okay…did you hear that? You read it correctly…atheist! Bertrand Russell was indeed an atheist.
Another: “Russell thought it very unlikely that there was a God, and he maintained that religion is little more than superstition and, despite any positive effects that religion might have, it is largely harmful to people. He believed religion and the religious outlook (he considered communism and other systematic ideologies to be species of religion) serve to impede knowledge, foster fear and dependency, and are responsible for much of the war, oppression, and misery that have beset the world.” Information about Bertrand Russell are taken from Wikipedia…please go there for more comfirmation on this atheist. Is there any doubt that Warren used on the first page of this book an atheist? Not a good idea. Was this a new and fresh idea you think? What? There is no purpose for me to go on…this is enough Mr. Calcote. You are the perfect profile of purpose driven congregant…you want to bring a man to Christ, but you don’t want to offend him, so you offer him a ‘worldly’ book as a means of an approach to salvation. So, next are you going to take the crosses down from the Bellevue landscape? They might be offensive to the seekers you know. And you might want to change the name from Bellevue Baptist Church to Bellevue Worship Center, or something like that. You might even want to finish the construction on the labyrinth in the Worship Center you have already built? Or is it ready? That is a good place for centering prayer. There is a name for this type of salvation Mr. Calcote…it is consumerism. Consumer salvation. You have watered down the gospel to bring a friend to Christ, so what is the end result of his salvation do you think?
This situation you have in the world…this purpose driven, seeker sensitive movement, contemplative spirituality; it is borne by Satan. He is the winner today in the churches and he is using people with scales on their eyes as tools for his folly. What is his folly? Who is his folly? Search your soul for the answers. I pray you will find them.
You need not worry yourself with discussion with the resistors Mr. Calcote…they understand.
Koragg,
Well, don't go banging your head on locker doors.
Wait, that's a different 80's hair band. Bad, I must ammend.
Regarding " not using " the Bible to win people to Christ because it may offend.
THUS SAITH THE LORD:
Whosoever therefore shall be ashamed of me and of my words in this adulterous and sinful generation; of him also shall the Son of man be ashamed, when he cometh in the glory of his Father with the holy angels.
Mark 8 : 38
Do you guys fear the truth so much that you'd rather reside in your bitterness and ignorance rather than open your eyes and ears to others opinions?
Could you elaborate on the "truth" that you speak of?
How does someone named Rick become so powerful and influential? All the Ricks I know are good ole boys that like to go fishing or play mud football.
ima,
You've certainly placed quite a few words in my mouth that aren't mine, and incorrectly conjectured quite a bit about my thoughts.
sbs says:
Please let those with my point of view show our love for a godly man.
sotl says:
I'm having a difficult time
'squaring' your terminology of a
'godly' man with a man that allowed a pedophile to roam around BBC unchecked for 6 months, with NO concern for the children that came in his path.
The Bible is very clear on who is and who is not qualified to serve in the ministry. If YOUR PASTOR is so " godly" as you put it, why did he ignore scripture?
HMMM?
upside down,
Please rest assured that it does not matter to me how many people are on " my side" . I know wrong when I see it.
And wrong is STILL wrong if EVERYONE is doing it and RIGHT is STILL right if no one is doing it.
I am prepared to stand alone for the sake of rightousness.
I am prepared to be persecuted for standing for the truth.
I am prepared to be mocked at, spit at, glared at, and hauled off in handcuffs.
But there is ONE thing that I will NOT do:
I will NOT, under ANY circumstances, follow the crowd, because it appears to be the cool thing to do, or becuase I want to keep my friends.
I will stand for Jesus and HIS HOLY WORD.
PERIOD.
How bout you?
Topic suggestion"
What Jesus is Rick Warren following in light of Matthew 10:34
Ima, The Word divides and offends. It was meant to..wasn't it.
Mr. Calcote, I pray you will use the discernment tool and really go through the PDL with a good translation like NASB or ESV using the discernment tool. It will be worth the effort. It was for me.
http://cicministry.org/berean.php
Be a Berean.
Grace and Peace
Lindon and Imaresistor
To be fair to Rick Warren (gag), I did not see anything overtly heretical in PDL and I DO believe one could understand the gospel if they read it. This is why I don't find it particularly alarming that Dr. Rogers allowed it to be taught at Bellevue.
We can disagree and still be buds!! :)
Now, to Mr. Calcote:
Warren has repeatedly found opportunities and made excuses for aligning himself with those who support abominations and those who worship false gods. If you read about his PEACE plan you will see how he plans to buddy up with the "global neighborhood".
He made a retraction, as Lindon said, after sharing a platform with Obama, yet he will continue to join ranks with non-believers.
He buddies up with non-believers and justifies - no - gives TIPS on how to get discerning christians out of the church so it can be hijacked and the culture changed to attract the lost.
These old fuddy duddy christians just aren't hip and cool enough to attract a wordly bunch. How many churches have been torn asunder, the believers thrown out to make room for people who subscribe to an emotional, fuzzy religion? He has created a following and now is doing his "global outreach".
These guys on pastors.com are all in the process of implementing his hijacking tips and proud of themselves for running off any opposed - kinda like so many are being run off at BBC.
I'm not so sure he's a brother, Derrick, or he wouldn't be molesting the bride this way.
Apparently, you approve of these hateful tactics if you can call Gaines a godly man....
I want to share something with ya'll that happened on Sunday night.
I went to Faith Baptist Church to watch my son play violin with the Annie Moses Band. They are a Christian, family group that plays violin, viola, piano, etc.
The music was fine. They did a lot of hymns, etc.
But I have to tell you...when one of the young men stood to do his " act" I started to squirm in my chair.
Meant to be funny, he took different parts of the Bible and strung a " funny" story out of it.
Mixing it all up, and advising any preachers in the crowd that they could have his notes. Some of his statements started with " verily verily I say unto thee" and then would say something really " funny"
The longer it went on, the more uncomfortable I became. I felt like he was taking God's word and mocking it. Yet, the crowd was going wild.
My heart hurt for my savior, who died on that cross for me. There was nothing funny to me about mocking God's word.
Is this the watered down version of the gospel that we are getting now? Where it's ok to laugh and mock at God's word?
Concerned,
You have mail....!
Last Nov 4-6 100 students, pastors, and church planters were at Fuller's Theological Seminary to learn about the Emerging Church.
http://www.fuller.edu/news/htm/church_growth04.asp
Before Rick Warren I was opposed to the new methods of Donald McGavran, C Peter Wagner and John Wimber. My intro was in the 70's and as a pastor for 25 years I recognized a Church growth message at Bellevue on a Wednersday night five or six years ago. As a former pentecostal minister who was looking for a good Baptist church I knew that Bellevue was deffinitely not the place for good solid preaching which is my main criteria for a church. The good Word must be declared! Everything else takes back seat. I was opposed to the emerging church and Belevue was emergent in my opinion. The sermon I heard that night was what most of you are opposing. You might be biting off more than you can chew.
Sickofthelies, when Jesus told us to love one another was there to be exceptions?
Please,
Use paragraphs, especially if, like me, your exposition expounds toward the volume of a Dostoevsky tome.
My poor eyes cain't take it.
Ima,
And to answer your question about what the end result of his salvaion is...
I think the end result is that he will spend eternity in heaven with Christ.
When I look at his testimony to me, "I have offered my life to the Lord Jesus Christ, prayed with an earnest heart for the forgiveness of my sins and asked to become a member of God's family," I have no reason to doubt his salvation in light of scripture.
Since you obviously feel that the Word of God was watered down here, would you care to point out what one must to to be saved other than the following?
Offering your life to Jesus Christ, praying with an earnest heart for the forgiveness of your sins, and asking to become a member of God's family.
What is watered down there?
truth rules said
lindon, why don't you continue on a few verses following as Paul writes against the complainers in the church. That may make some interesting reading for this blog.
Piglet says:
Yeah, imagine the gall of us malcontents to complain about the leadership keeping the financials a secret ILLEGALLY.
Gee, and just because some of our best folks got humiliated, fired and/or run off - why the fuss?
And who cares if we're conservative but Steve decides to support liberal causes with OUR MONEY?
And it was kinda cute when he and three other adult men scaled a fence to bully a troublesome deacon. Reminded me of some neighborhood punks -hee hee.
Why, it was flat entertaining to hear him trash us to other congregations.
Oh, and that story about not preaching on Weds. to be with his family - just an iddy biddy white lie. Why preach HERE on Wed.when you can get an extra check somewhere else?
And just because our kids have been hanging out at church with a pedophile for 6 months with Steve's approval is no big deal, right? We can just let that tiny oversight go- he's only been preaching 20 years. He needs experience.
And these tax laws are just confusing. After 20 years, I can imagine being a little fuzzy on the comingling of funds - all that red tape. What's a guy to do?
upside down,
Thank you for making my point for me.
SG was not showing much love for his sheep when he allowed PW to roam thru the halls of BBC around unsuspecting, innocent children.
And "Upside Down"
I would be remiss if I didn't thank you for your kind words.
Feel free to e.mail me anytime...
dcalcote@msn.com
Oh, and upside down,
You are certainly upside down in your thinking if you think that parents were interested in having
PW " LOVE" on their children.
sotl said
Is this the watered down version of the gospel that we are getting now? Where it's ok to laugh and mock at God's word?
Piglet says:
That kind of thing bothers me too. I've seen it some in our youth group at BBC. As a result I'm having a hard time training my boys that some things are holy and not to be laughed about. Very discouraging.
Don
I appreciate your efforts to educated us about the PDL movement, but quite frankly, that issue has been discussed, cussed, and any other "ussed" you can think of in this forum.
I honestly think that anything further is a distraction at this point. I'm really beginning to feel that Bellevue's problems are deeper than some man's movement out of california.
Pastor Steve preached a good sermon last Sunday on what a church should be. While I'm not sure I have a level of trust that we hear exactly what he believes from the pulpit, or what he thinks we want to hear, that's between him and God. As for me, I'm going to pray that he truly believes in his heart and practices what he said last Sunday.
SOTL,
There are many things that offend me that do not offend others. There is a certain preacher whom I respect as a person and I respect his Biblical teaching, but I detest hearing his humor from the pulpit. My personal preference. Other people love him.
I saw that performance too, and personally was not offended. It was funny. (IMO) His monologue was presented as fiction, not fact, and could possibly spur those who don't know the Bible to find out what the Bible really said. The humor was for me a welcome relief.
Just sayin'
I'm over here wonderin' if there's going to be a new thread soon....? Even my DSL is having trouble with this one. Reading this on dial-up would be impossible.
And has anyone noticed the recordings on savingbellevue yet? Under ACT, then under the picture of the vault?
please sign the support petition; I did already...we're picking up steam!!
Re-reading my 10:41 post... I sound like I get offended easily! LOL! Perhaps that post was not articulated as well as I had hoped. tee hee!
Well, good night. Time for me to disappear again. Poof! (Charis now returns to the deep dark shadows of "The Lurking Zone")
Were up to 5...and it looks like one of the dissenters has had a change of heart! Miracles do happen!
William T. Loney
Sign the petition guys!
"Come on in fellers, the water's fine"
(From 'O Brother where art thou?')
William T. Loney
derrick calcote wrote:
"Since you obviously feel that the Word of God was watered down here, would you care to point out what one must to to be saved other than the following?
"Offering your life to Jesus Christ, praying with an earnest heart for the forgiveness of your sins, and asking to become a member of God's family."
Ummm... repentence maybe?
Say it out loud -- "Bill Loney."
Mr. Calcote said, "Since you obviously feel that the Word of God was watered down here, would you care to point out what one must to to be saved other than the following?"
We are both adults, Mr. Calcote, and we both know the road to salvation don't we? There is no need to go into this other than I will say I believe in today's world, in these church movements we have a strong tendency toward easy believism. Possibly even so as we have always known it. With everything that is going on today in our churches, I feel it would behoove all of us to look long and hard at our beliefs to be sure we know in our hearts that we have it right. The Bible tells us that the gate is narrow…and I think we need to realize that it is, indeed, narrow. I believe that too many Christians are of the impression they are safe…when they might not be safe at all. That is what I am saying. I am saying that we don’t want to hear the words when the time comes, “Depart from me…I never knew you.” Stay in the word, discern, seek the truth, the light…don’t be deceived. Be a watchman…sound the warning. Look at the fruit. We will know. We must give Jesus one hundred percent. Who is right and who is wrong? Look at the fruit. In my estimation, a pastor should be without blemish. It is that simple. Rick Warren? I really am surprised that a man of your stature would be taken in by this man. Look at his fruit. Have you read him? Have you read the Purpose Driven Church and Transitioning by Dan Southerland which is promoted by Rick Warren? If you haven’t, then you must! Do extensive study on this man before you buy into him. A man should not have the following he has who blatantly gives written instructions on how to rid your church of the brethren. My Bible tell me in 1Jo 3:14 “We know that we have passed from death unto life, because we love the brethren. He that loveth not [his] brother abideth in death.” The pastors.com website alone should be enough that anybody would avoid using him or anything he has written to offer a salvation plan to the lost. It is misleading…can’t you see that? Before I even knew who Rick Warren was, I bought this book and started reading it...I had heard how wonderful it was. The first page had red flags all over it. On Rick Warren…I don’t want to kill the messenger, just the message. I hope I have answered your question. Oh…and I do believe that it is Jesus…plus nothing. Only the Bible.
I come from a long line of honorable Loneys, Nass. My grandmother, Maw Larkey, instilled within us a sense of family pride. Please do not belittle our name, as they did the name of my uncle, the honorable Harold Mann. And BTW, sign the petition!
William T. Loney
Bill Loney,
I know you are underappreciated, so I just want to tell you that I love you; especially with mustard and cheese.
May I ask a personal question? Do you happen to be fried?
You still got more respect than souse.
DON said...
11 days until OPENING DAY !!!
Oh, come ON don! Give us a hint. The suspense is killing us. What's so special about April's Fool Day?
NASS,
Indeed there was heartfelt repentance. Furthermore, I've seen a desire to grow in Godliness.
Also have seen fruit in that he has sought out a local fellowship, and has presented himself for baptisim, and has sought to share his faith with others.
It saddens me that some here instead of rejoicing that this person got saved, is casting rocks at him, calling his salvation into question because they do not like the tools God chose to use to bring this man to Christ.
Sad indeed.
Trollcakes,
I am not understanding you. Are you asking me over for dinner?
If so, I'll need to clear it with my girlfriend, Clara deRoom...she's french and may not approve. BTW, sign the petition!
William T. Loney
Yeah, yeah, and my Irish aunt was named Patty O'Furniture and I read a book called "Exercising" by Ben Dover and ... that's all I have to say about that.
lwood,
you took my remarks out of context
William T. Loney
Sickofthelies,
Will you email me so I can tell you something in private? (At your convenience, of course.)
Thanks,
Dee
NASS,
I think I'll start a site called savingsavesavingbellevue.com ... whatdya think? Maybe not...
finance guy said
I honestly think that anything further is a distraction at this point. I'm really beginning to feel that Bellevue's problems are deeper than some man's movement out of california.
Piglet says:
I know Don is not a member, but I am and I believe the problem IS deeper than "some man's movement in California" and much broader than just Bellevue.
The enemy is at work everywhere and if you look at pastors.com you will see our pastors attitude is all over America in scores of pulpits. This is not the work of one man but THE enemy.
Yes, the problem goes very deep and is not isolated to Bellevue. If we truly believe we do not wrestle flesh and blood, it should not surprise us that a very successful strategy of the evil one would manifest itself in many places.
This ego/power trip our pastor is on and his agenda to make sin look like a mistake, tailoring the church to attract the world, the end justifies the means, stomp the opposition, ....it is everywhere because Satan is everywhere and he will eventually succeed in bringing tolerance and unity in the form of a one world church.
Men of conviction and integrity are not equipped with the evil necessary to carry out this plan.
Gaines defended his alignment with FUMC in his sermon the other night according to many on this blog...a step toward this tolerance and unity gospel.
A distraction? I don't think so. Blow the enemy's cover and flush him out. It should only help us to suit up and go into battle better prepared.
2006huldah,
Hey, welcome back...haven't see you here for a while. I was wondering if that other Dee had run you off!
Hi, SOTL,
How are you tonight?
Howdy, 'Cakes!
And hi to everyone else, too...but I'm going to bed soon (that's the plan anyway).
I once wanted to try a chitlin sandwich, but couldn't find a bun long enough.
Just say'n.
What up, Junk99yahoooooo!
Mr. Calcote,
No, no...my last post to you was in general.
If you say your friend is saved...I rejoice with you. I won't make a judgement like that. My heart is burdened in that I want the Word, not RW's word, used in winning the lost. I am sickened that the PDL book has replaced the Bible all over the world. I can hardly stand it. There was one man who was asked to leave a SS class because he brought his Bible instead of the PDL book! You know enough is enough! And I would venture to say that your friend is in the Word. I hope.
Joke name?
Cant you show more sympathy?
You cant even imagine the torture I went through in high school...cheese left in my locker...mayonaisse in my shoes during gym class...pickles tossed at me during the prom.
Joke name? In your callous eyes maybe, but as my grandmother, "Maw" Larkey used to say, 'Bill Loney, your as good as anybody, and no, you weren't made with the worst parts of the cow'... O, what soothing words. BTW, sign the petition!
William T. Loney
I just discovered that if you enter "Purpose Driven Pancakes" (with the quotes) into Google, it comes back with no matches. What's up with that???
Wow, but there are actually porpoise-driven liferafts.
Really enjoyed Bill Loney's beautiful words on the petition.
Brought me to tears. :)
Piglet,
I can see that you are someone who knows what Bill Loney is all about:)
As my uncle, Harry Mann, used to say,"Bill Loney, you may not be that smart, but you make up for it with your stupidity"... O, what I wouldn't give to have more Harry Mann's.
William T. Loney
solomon
opening day - Major League Baseball - April 1
Guys,
Our petition is up to 5. By tomorrow, that number will be doubled to 8, and then tripled to 12. In a few days, we'll be in the teens, and then look out for the snowball effect. What are you gonna say when 30, maybe even 32 names are staring you in the face, all saying the same thing... we haven't decided what that is yet, but when we do, I assure you, it will be overwhelming.
So, why not just stop the tomfoolery and jump on board?
When you do, you'll see even more Bill Loney.
William T. Loney
PDL-
People Don't Listen
Prolifigate Drinking of Lemonade
Preachers Don't Lie
Pass the Bill Loney
trollcakes wrote:
"I once wanted to try a chitlin sandwich, but couldn't find a bun long enough."
This should accommodate it (them?) nicely!
Ima
Thanks for not smacking me about because I didn't dissect PDL. Sounds like you've done your research.I just read it through and tossed it aside after a yawn.
Thanks for being gentle. :)
Bill Loney
Thanks for the chuckles. I needed them, with all this spiritual warfare and whatnot...sometimes I think all this armor is giving me blisters but we must press on fellow warriors. :/
(offline)
NASS
LOL!!! Really going to bed now!!
oops... that should read...
PDL
Pass Da baLoney
Unfortunately, it is very easy to get distracted from the key problem of Purpose Driven.
It is this..
In the name of relevance, the CHURCH IS NOW BECOMING WORDLY,something God abhors, and results in being designated an enemy of GOD>
and in the name of reaching the lost, the cultural surrender to worldliness by the Church leadership is now melding and is converting THE CHURCH to WORLDLINESS.
This is also a certain guarantee that TRUE believers will be moved by The Holy Spirit to EXIT , rather than be assimilated.
And...
All of this is called " good " by
Herr Warren.
God despises it from cover to cover.
So do I.
It is a well-hatched scheme from hell, and one of the supreme tests of our Faith.
May we be found Faithful
Amen
One more thing...
In the name of NOT OFFENDING MAN
The Church is now OFFENDING GOD.
God never told man to strip His message of its' conviction and of its' Divinely instituted offense.
The offense is there by GODS HAND.
1st Peter 2 8-11
And a stone of stumbling, and a rock of offence, even to them which stumble at the word, being disobedient: whereunto also they were appointed. 9 But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light: 10 Which in time past were not a people, but are now the people of God: which had not obtained mercy, but now have obtained mercy. 11 Dearly beloved, I beseech you as strangers and pilgrims, abstain from fleshly lusts, which war against the soul;
Purpose Driven churches are not abstaining from fleshly lusts...
they are employing fleshly lusts as new " tools " and meeting "felt needs" (sensuality) to attract and gain "numbers" and thus ,,,,money".
Holiness and Separation and Sound Doctrine and preaching of the whole counsel of GOD are now considered ancient non-enlightened traditions worthy of trash...which have allegedly harmed the Church, rather than been a sure sign of GODS Blessing and approval.
Basically, ....
Brutish and arrogant men have decided God and His Word needed an extreme makeover.
so much for FORD AUTO COMPANY which used to say...
FORD HAS A BETTER IDEA...
Now , deceived hirelings are living out the blasphemous lie with fists raised to Almighty GOD....
declaring to GOD..in the sight of all men
Man has a " better idea"
Who hath bewitched you ?
Charis,
And has anyone noticed the recordings on savingbellevue yet? Under ACT, then under the picture of the vault?
Those are great- worth looking at.
If BBC administration doesn't want to follow the law, then they can cease being a non-profit status. IMHO.
don
"In the name of not offending man The Church is offending God."
I believe God is greatly offended and his judgement began at the house of God and will spread through out American Fundamentalism.
God has allowed a Pedophile to walk the halls of Bellvue as his judgement against the church in the same way he used the Assyrians to trample Jerusalem.
This judgement is greater than we can realize.
Please show your love and support for Brother Steve today!
Come on, take a stand today!
I reject all ad-hominem attacks , both overt and subtle..upon fundamental faith and beleif in GOD.
It is that very same fundamental faith and practice as guided by Gods Holy Spirit that succesfully and correctly identifies the spirit of error in the midst of the visible evangelical Church.
May I be found faithful and doctrinally fundamental, without compromise.
Amen
Semi-pelagianism has so infiltrated American fundamentalism that is is hard to find a place where it is not had an influence.
**********************************
**THE WORLD IS READING THIS BLOG**
Clarification below!!!!!!!!!!!
**********************************
WatchingHISstory said...
My intro was in the 70's and as a pastor for 25 years I recognized a Church growth message at Bellevue on a Wednersday night five or six years ago. As a former pentecostal minister who was looking for a good Baptist church I knew that Bellevue was deffinitely not the place for good solid preaching which is my main criteria for a church. The good Word must be declared! Everything else takes back seat. I was opposed to the emerging church and Belevue was emergent in my opinion. The sermon I heard that night was what most of you are opposing. You might be biting off more than you can chew.
9:33 PM, March 20, 2007
Sheepless says,
One thing that everyone reading this blog needs to be aware of that WatchingHISstory did not make clear and some may misconstrue is..
DR ADRIAN ROGERS would NOT have been the minister in the pulpit on the night WatchingHISstory is speaking of.
Dr Rogers at this point in time was affording other ministers of Bellevue the opportunity to preach on Wed nights as well as some visiting ministers from time to time.
With this said let me also clarify
that Dr Rogers was not shirking his duties of pastoring Bellevue Baptist Church. For many, many, many years he preached 5 times per week. 3 services Sunday morning, 1 Sunday night, 1 Wednesday night.
Plus all of his other responsibilities of pastoring and leading Bellevue Baptist Church.
Bellevue Baptist Church under the pastoring of Dr Adrian Rogers was most certainly a church of good solid preaching. Dr Adrian Rogers preached the Bible, believed in the inerrant word of the Bible, lived and breathed by the Word of God.
Dr Adrian Rogers was a man of principle, integrity, honesty and discipline. He loved the Lord, loved his precious wife Joyce, loved his children, grandchildren, friends and he loved his sheep.
When Dr Adrian Rogers was in the pulpit of Bellevue Baptist Church, the Word of GOD was preached and preached as written.
Dr Adrian Rogers was "a good and faithful servant of our Lord Jesus Christ"
^^^^
please see above declaration
DON said...
One more thing...
In the name of NOT OFFENDING MAN
The Church is now OFFENDING GOD.
Sheepless says,
AMEN!
oops..hope that wasn't too loud
AMEN!!!!!!AMEN!!!!!!AMEN!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Turn your eyes....upon Jesus
Look full in His wonderful face...
And the things of earth will grow strangely dim
In the light of His glory ..and grace
Sheepless
God Bless You !!!!!!!!!!
You get it !!!!!!!!
Who ever thought embracing anti-GOD humanism would ever be re-packaged and sold as a chief duty for all churches and Christians to embrace and impliment in order to not be " offensive " to man?
My allegiance is to THE KING
not the crowds..or the spiritually perishing "brotherhood" of man
Other than that...
nothin much goin on
: ))))))
Derrick Calcote,
I have been reading your posts and want to comment. We did a church wide PDL study of the book in all the adult Sunday Schools at GBC several years ago. I had a few problems with the book. Here is an example that I found from a site that had quotes from the book.
"You only bring [God] enjoyment by being you. Anytime you reject any part of yourself, you are rejecting God's wisdom and sovereignty in creating you"
I think this is in direct conflict to what the Bible tells us. Deny Self- Take up the cross.
(Don’t know exact passage, pretty sure Matthew, but it’s in the N.T! ) And I won’t even get into the sinful nature of “being you” as it relates to God’s enjoyment.
However, I could see how the book led people to Christ, and hopefully to a church that will disciple them in their relationship with God.
My greater issues are with the PDC (and these are just a few):the steps of transitioning an established church ; the emphasis that is places on numbers, and the ”Anything It Takes” (tm Rick Warren) to get your membership up, even if it’s at other believers’ expense. The PDC, in my opinion, really compromises discipleship, by making an atmosphere more appealing to the world, and not delving in to the meat of the scripture that might offend some. Go out into the world and bring them in, welcome any person seeking God, regardless of their lifestyle, into your church,- but don’t sell short the word of God.
Please look into the links I provided. You may still not agree with me, but maybe you might understand why some folks seem, myself included, hyper-vigilant about CGM.
Please also look at my posts on 3/19: 9:09pm and 8:46 PM and 3/20; 7:31am- if for no other reason it took me forever to find them!
As excerpted from Lighthousetrailsresearch.com
Ode to the Watchers on the Wall...
They are the watchers. Tirelessly they stand on the wall and watch ... sometimes blowing their horns to warn of danger and creeping dragons. The people shake their heads and just walk away... "Don't believe everything you see, foolish watcher!" they say, even though the watchers can see what they can't. Foolishly, the people naively open the gates and welcome the dragons in now. Proudly they walk by flaunting their green guests. "See, this is a good guest," they sneer, oblivious to the puff of smoke wafting behind them. The watchers know that it's only because of their swords that the dragons don't devour the whole village at once. Watchers are never well liked ... they don't apply for this job, but the King grants such a position only to those He chooses. They must accept the honor ... it's not that they are worthy, but they have each been rescued from the mouth of a fierce dragon ... so they know the stench and recognize the sounds of a dragon ... and now they watch for them ... because they owe their lives to the King and his family.
Amy, can I make another stab at the meaning of what you pulled from the PDL book? I will assume you will allow since you've always seem so kind in your posts.
Could this not mean that we are to accept ourselves as God has made us. If I were born blind wouldn't that mean that I was to understand that is how God intended me to be. Rather than to reject my blindness as being a curse I should see it as God's blessing to me. How many parents of a Downs syndrome child have we heard tell us what a blessing that child was to their family. I think that what Rick Warren was saying is that God made each of us to be unique. What does it say to God when we reject the way He created us?
Don,
Scary....Sad.....True
Bill Looney,
Great post in support of Bro Steve.
Guys, check it out, they were up to SEVEN!!!
Amy,
Where is GBC in the pastor search?
Has the short list of 10 been narrowed any further?
Thanks
Don,
yes :(
Yes, with fear, trembling and a very heavy heart it was Dr. Rogers who was speaking that night. It was a church growth message of the sort you are discussing on this site.
Also a lone woman down front broke into applause when he mentioned how many baptisms that Bellevue had that year. He immediately stopped her and proceeded in making his point. Her applause haunts me every day.
It was not that he offended her but there was a note of self-importance and pride in him. Like Moses he struck the rock and in a slight moment he revealed his self determination and this comes from semi-pelagianism.
His point was that water baptisms are an indication of church growth and that Bellevue should have more.
Her resonse was the stiring of the Spirit within her (I'm sure she was not the theologian he was). Her response was intune to what Jesus told the returning disciples, "rejoice that your names are written in the book of life." He was refering consciously to the outer sign of baptism and she unconsciously was responding to the inner work of grace. You rarely see exibitions of rejoicing when people are baptized in water by a minister but when a person is baptized by the Holy Spirit into the body of Christ there is great rejoicing by the converted and great rejoicing at the throne when just one invidual's name is added to the roll up there!
Like Peter's sermon at Cornelius' house I can't help but believe that the first person to interrupt the sermon was a woman and then others joined in.
Truth,
I would always welcome your opinion, a different point of view, or questions. I am harmless, and sometimes even wrong!
I do see your point. To be honest, I had remembered that statement in the book (not verbatum of course) and found the what I was looking fort on a RW quotes web site ( what I posted was the direct quote), so it was taken out of context. I don't have a PDL book anymore, but I will search around the web and let you know what I found.
And, regardless of the context of RW statement, I do agree: we shouldn't reject the way God made us,
using any disabilities to glorify God.
I know this isn’t from a Christian source, but I thought it was sweet, and what you said reminded me of it, so I will share.
Last month the comic strip B.C showed the peg legged caveman under a tree, chiseling on his stone tablet.
He wrote:
I am thankful I have one leg
To limp is no disgrace
I may not be number one
But I’m still in the race
It’s not the things we cannot do
That makes us who we are
But doing good with what we’ve got
That lights the morning star.
Calcote: It saddens me that some here instead of rejoicing that this person got saved, is casting rocks at him, calling his salvation into question because they do not like the tools God chose to use to bring this man to Christ."
Not true. None of us know who is elect in the end. All we can do is look for fruit.
You are the one who said your friend was saved by reading PDL. Unless your friend got into the Word, there is cause to be concerned. Keep in mind that even the BGEA people know that only about 5% of the 'decisions' for Christ at a Crusade bear fruit a year later.
Some great verifiable research has been done on this in Evangelism Divided by Ian McMurray. Scripture tells us to make our 'calling and election sure' and to 'work out our salvation with fear and trembling'.
Piglet wrote:A distraction? I don't think so. Blow the enemy's cover and flush him out. It should only help us to suit up and go into battle better prepared."
Amen. It is a battle fought with prayer and scripture in context. And NOT Eugene Peterson's translation of a translation of what he thinks the Bible said.
Amy,
Sheepless Said,
Where is GBC in the pastor search?
Has the short list of 10 been narrowed any further?
Not that I've heard. The Pastor search committee's not talking at all!
"Truth rules: “can I make another stab at the meaning of what you pulled from the PDL book?”
Why? What is the point? Why not spend our time searching what the authors, who were Divinely inspired, wrote in the scriptures?
Warren has proved himself in the Ladies Home Journal articles and Synagogue3000 (and other places) where he failed to mention the name of Jesus. A pastor who teaches and does not mention Jesus?
"Why? What is the point? Why not spend our time searching what the authors, who were Divinely inspired, wrote in the scriptures?"
wrote lin
I had the privilege of sitting under Dr. Rogers. He had the ability to enable my understanding of Scripture in a way that help me to have new understandings. Also, I do not read Greek or Hebrew. Those that do have helped me to understand the meaning and utilization of particular words. For instance the word rock as written in the English actually has two meanings depending on the Greek word. Therefore it helps simple people like me to have a more through understanding of God's Word. I am sure that you are better equipped and gifted than I in the study of God's word. But I don't have a problem asking those who are more learned than I.
Dear WatchingHistory,
God indeed did give you discernment and a word of knowledge about Dr. Rogers. You are not the only one to whom He had revealed this. But to mention this pride accompanied by his name is to cause almost every eye that views this to quickly shut as though it was never written. So we shall "pretend" after this post that it wasn't named by you (or us)in order that Dr. Rogers' stance as God's assistant maintain its place in hearts and minds that choose to idealize him. Perhaps for many he was such a fine example of a man of God that it is a good thing to have his example in front of one's eyes minus his flesh. He certainly was a wonderful example of a man of God before our eyes also. How we loved him. How we miss him.
Treasure what God revealed to you and do not answer the accusations that will follow. We shall do the same.
But we indeed did love precious Dr. Adrian Rogers. He was a mighty man of God. He was human, yes. He would admit that we ALL struggle with our flesh in our fight to walk and live in The Spirit. Winning that fight by The LORD Jesus Christ and enduring to the end as Bro. Rogers did is what we all seek to acheive.
Pride is in all of our ugly flesh and must be put to death by The LORD Jesus and our submission to Him. It is also in your flesh as well as in ours. Fighting the flesh does not mean that God's children are not for real. It merely means that we all are brands plucked out of the fire that was prepared for the devil and his angels.
As for Bro. Rogers' mention of baptisms being a sign of growth in the Church, God isn't into nit-picking people's words apart. He sees the heart...and He does indeed seeks more and more baptisms into His Kingdom. It kinda goes along with the "you will know a tree by its fruit" statement that The LORD Jesus made versus the "we will know our financial picture by the number of baptisms" that PDL covertly teaches.
Truth rules,
You said "But I don't have a problem asking those who are more learned than I."
I may have missed something in the dialogue, but just in case I didn't, may I suggest to you going to some of the websites such as the one by Bob DeWaay or John MacArthur or perhaps Blue Letter Bible. There are many good sources for commentaries available both online and off. I would personally suggest that more study in the Bible and less in PDL would be beneficial. There is really no good reason to be trying to understand Rick Warren's word, but rather the Word of God. Everybody would be better off to lay down the Purpose Driven Life book, pick up their Bible and go on with their lives. The turmoil and strife this book has caused in our churches should be evidence enough that it needs to be abandoned. Quit trying to understand what Warren means. ..and get into what God is telling you.
come,Lord Jesus!
Shutting my eyes to the pride that is associated with my name has led me through years of tribulations. We all need to open our eyes or let God open them for us.
"But I don't have a problem asking those who are more learned than I."
I don't either but I am very careful 'who' I ask. When we rely on that, we have the responsibility to know exactly what they are teaching and if it is scriptural...hence back to scripture!! If I do not understand something and have not been illuminated by the Holy Spirit, I search what 2000 years of teaching says. My favorite is Spurgeon. He is dead and cannot change his teaching! :o) Even then, it is my responsibility to pray and seek truth. The most important thing we do...more important than witnessing is seeking and knowing Christ.
The Holy Spirit gives us the ability to understand scriptures. Why not go to scripture first?
Paul commended the Bereans for checking and testing everything he taught.
Isaiah 2:22
THERE'S A NEW THREAD IF ANYONE WANTS TO MOVE UP.
Thank you,
NBBCOF
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