Yes, folks. Blogger messed up the blog. It's been pestering me to convert to the new version of Blogger (which is out of the beta phase but shouldn't be), so finally last night I went ahead and did so, mainly so that the search feature would be available. Well, it worked BUT it changed over half your screen names to "anonymous"!
Come to find out, after the fact, that this is a known issue in the "new and improved" Blogger. See this for the gory details. Whether there's a fix or not remains to be seen, but in the meantime you may want to put your screen name at the top of each comment.
My apologies for the inconvenience.
Some have said the problem has to do with the version of Blogger that the commenter is using when the switchover takes place. Please take the following poll to better help determine the problem. Whether you're using the old Blogger or the new version is determined by how you log in. If you use your Blogger.com account, you're still using the old version. If you use your Google account, you're using the new version.
Questions:
1. Why has it asked several times if I want to display nonsecure items? Is that OK???
Yes, it's aggravating, but apparently you can click "Yes" or "No" with no difference in results.
2. Why isn't the link for the blog still on the Saving Bellevue site?
It was a personal decision on the part of the owner of that site, and you would need to contact him about that. However, all you need to do is bookmark this site:
http://newbbcopenforum.blogspot.com
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306 comments:
1 – 200 of 306 Newer› Newest»Today is wed.just testing
Testing Testing Testing
Oh my lord I finally got the trashcan!
why has it asked several times if I want to display nonsecure items? Is that OK???
Thanks for explaining this to us! It was very surprising this morning to find that our 10:14 a.m. post of yesterday 1/30/2007 was under a different post name called "Anonymous". Now we are able to understand what happened.
May Jesus give you a glorious day in Him.
Sincerely in The LORD and ONLY Savior Jesus Christ,
Stephen and Bonita Ann Richie
Living Hope In Jesus
www.livinghopeinjesus.com
testing as well
gmommylv,
Does it say something about POSTDATA?
It comes up for me whenever you have typed something in the comments section and try to refresh. You can simply go back to the main forum page and then come back in here by clicking on the link (instead of refreshing) and it should go away.
Assuming that is the message you are getting!
Blogmiester, I feel your pain :o)
Beta has been a nightmare not only for blogowners but for commenters. this blogger/google deal has been very confusing.
In comments sign in my google e-mail account does not work unless I sign into my own blog first! I still cannot figure that out. It is attached to my blog. The whole thing is a nightmare.
You probably have one of the biggest blogs out there with 600-800 comments in a thread. That is pretty incredible.
Why did the link get removed from savingbellevue?????
Miriam, That was a beautiful comment on the last thread. I think you are very sincere in your comments.
Can there be reconciliation outside of scriptural precepts? As Ezekial pointed out on the last thread, The Word IS God. Why would the leadership ignore it in such a situation. This points to something very serious within the church. If God's Word is not all consuming and powerful in the hands of a trained pastor, then what does that tell you?
I also posted some teaching from Sprugeon which speaks to this issue. There can be no unity outside of scripture. We either believe the Bible or we don't. We either follow it's precepts all the time as a church or we don't.
Reconciliation is one of those concepts that is impossible to achieve unless it is with scriptural unity. 1 Timothy has quite a bit about this. Paul really warned Timothy about false teachers and NOT allowing them to teach at all (even in private! He was to thawrt all wrong teaching!) because they failed to follow scriptural teaching.
This is going to sound wacky but it is true: When your leadership ignored Titus, Timothy and 1 Corinthians in dealing with PW, they were saying that Christ is not Christ. His Words are meaningless. They were telling you the Holy Spirit is not in their hearts.
Quite frankly, they are not that different than many other churches out there. Sadly so. We bring out the scriptures when it is convenient and fits the situation to our liking. But then we conveniently ignore it at other times, too. There are many things in scripture I do not like. I have tried to rationalize them to fit my thinking. That is sin. I fight that daily.
You can reconcile with these brothers but not as a pastor or ministers. If you really love the Word.
I think Sister Pam put it the best. It is unloving not to tell the full truth of scripture.
You know, as Christians, if we see twisted or false teaching, we are to call it out. We are to rebuke it. We are to honor God's Word. Not exactly a popular position to be in and you had better be right in God's eyes when you do! But where does it say following Christ will be popular? It says the opposite.
Good Morning just testing 3
Is the legal noose tightening? The savingbellvue sight is not linking this blog or any other blogs anymore and has removed the link to the report because Barnwell at BBC told him not to.
What is going on? Has Heywood been threatened with legal action?
Dear Brothers and Sisters: Several people have asked me to explain my comments to the media that is was my contention that neither the Investigative Team, the Personnel Committee, or the Belleuve leadership created an environment wherein victims can feel safe coming in and reporting their abuse.
Here is why I say that. Would someone show me in either of these reports, the comments from the Pastor that they did ONE thing for this victim? I rest my case.
Yes, I do see admissions that there were many mistakes but then they go on and try to explain those mistakes away. What message does that send to victims?
NO, the buck does NOT stop here. Not until we have total truth and transparency. Making excuses for behavior that was unexcuseable is unacceptable.
In the past few days, I have been contacted by several victims hurt by all of this. I have urged them to contact the church for assistance but to use a counselor they feel comfortable with and not use one of the ones the church wants you to use.
Let me explain further why I say that, last night I was contacted by a victim that was abused by a minister from another church in past. They were telling me of their abuse for the very FIRST time. They had never told anyone before. They contacted me in hopes I could help. They are a member of Bellevue. Why didn't they just contact Bellevue directly? They told me they do not feel comfortable in light of the reports, with the present counselors there. My point again why they failed victims.
Uncharted waters? Just ask any 3rd grader from the schools of the city of Memphis. They know what to do. They are taught to SCREAM and then tell someone in authority.
To the leadership at Bellevue I am SCREAMING for the victims.
David Brown
SNAP coordinator of West Tennessee and Memphis
Testing...
And also a thought this morning for those who are suggesting we all forgive and move on. I wonder if this thought has relevance for us...
Jeremiah 6.14
14 They dress the wound of my people as though it were not serious. 'Peace, peace,' they say, when there is no peace.
I have a trash can!!!
David, We are screaming and praying with you. Thank you for your work.
socwork: thanks for the reminder.
:)
ok...it is not refreshing...what am I doing wrong?
this is a test of the emergency blogging system..this is only a test.
ok...another test....
ok...good job!
How are you this am, AOG?
concerned,
Tired but ok..you?
Hi,
I have posted here before under name of bballermom but have had to change my name because of problems logging on here. I am sorry for any confusion. I have only posted 3 times I believe. I am now posting as nanasboys3. I am a nana of three grandboys thus the name.
I used to be a member of BBC back in the 1980's. Still keep up with BBC and watch LWF on Sundays after church. Love my DVR. I would like to share my thoughts on what continues to happen at BBC.
I am appalled that the leadership is still there. It is like the Clinton presidency. Integrity doesn't seem to count for much. Even before the situation with the staff member came to light, there was enough there to say the pastor has to go.
I can't believe that there are staff members who are not ordained or seminary trained. It boggles the mind. The arrogance of the staff is UNBELIEVABLE. The treatment of the members is heartbreaking.
I know that Dr Rogers was not perfect but He was a man of integrity and the recent issues at BBC would have been handled differently and swiftly. He would have also called it what it was "SIN" and not a moral failure.
I am praying that leadership in the church(deacons) will have their blinded eyes opened. Step up and be men of God. Integrity and character do count. As Dr. Phil would say"Own it". Mistakes have been made but I have not seen much true repentance from those making the mistakes.
For those who want to come on this blog and try to destroy people who are truly wanting truth and integrity, it is very sad to see this from those who claim to know Christ and yet think the past actions of the leadership is not that bad. The remark "Can't we all just get along?" comes to mind.
Stay strong my sisters and brothers in Christ and know that there are many people all over the world who are watching and waiting. We are also praying with you and for you. We are standing in the gap.
Tammy
* sniff *
Still testing...
I'm sorry. :( I hope you get some rest today!
My internet is going off and on (broadband) so it's kind of hard to get my work done! However, I'm thankful to be working from home today so I don't have to be out in this COLD!!!!
concernedSBCer said...
Sunday in Sunday School we read a verse from Proverbs 28. I found it interesting, so I continued to read. (sorry teacher!)
Proverbs 28:5 "Evil men do not understand justice, but those who seek the Lord understand all." Then my Bible has a note to go to John 17:17- "Sanctify them by Your truth. Your Word is truth."
Then, going back to Proverbs 28, verses 9 and following:
(9) One who turns away his ear from hearing the law, Even his prayer is an abomination.
(10) Whoever causes the upright to go astray in an evil way, He himself will fall into his own pit; but the blameless will inherit the good."
After this verse, my Bible says to see Matthew 6:300 "But seek first the kingdom of God and His righteousness, and all these things shall be added to you."
These is more meat in Proverbs 28, but I thought I would share this taste.
David- What more do you want from Dr. Gaines and Bellevue? Please be specific and thanks.
There was no one to my knowledge that was a professional doing interviews...as BBC alledged...however,maybe because I was in a good place emotionally for a long time and because Mike,the HR guy,was not a member of BBC....but kind and honest that he had no background with people who had been abused...I was comfortable but do not feel that most people would have been....not even a woman on this committee much less a trained advocate. Sadly,my strength/courage melted Sunday as my body screamed that I was in danger sitting in my church hearing words that minimized the SIN (was that word used at all) committed by the abuser and the pastors with knowledge of the crime. Never mind the rehersed,orchestrated,manipulative "presentation" from the baptism to the mention Of Brother Rodgers,Lisa's song,the hammering of scripture not a sermon.....everytime the word "incident"(there were other carefully chosen words and phases that minimized the SIN as well) was used my body jerked,tears flowed,until my chest was burning so bad,head and stomach attacking me.... I didn't know if I would throw up or pass out or scream...like I said that night,I had to leave before kumbaya. The physical pain continued...the feeling of danger,that I had to get somewhere safe....I was in my own home! I did call Mike yesterday morning. I am sure I totally freaked this nice ,untrained man out since the person he had always spoken to was a fighter and blunt and confident. Whatever thing I mentioned about the meeting,he really did try and explain...all seemed logical to him...again because no one involved in this process has a clue about the effects of sexual abuse/SIN/crime. I insisted that I go to my own therapist and there be NO accountability to BBC.....he called me back in less than a minute with a yes from DC......unfortunately,since I have not been to my therapist in 4 or 5 years...I haven't even been able to get thru to him. But Mike was very responsive to the best of his ability......now the other part to this is that a precious couple FROM THE BODY with no 1st hand experience in these "unchartered waters" brought me to their home,fed me a healthy meal,loved me,and by about 10 or so last night,I realized my body had gotten the message that I was safe . For most out there that are confused by what I experienced....maybe it was PTSD symptoms....maybe the hugest,longest panic attack.....even I can't explain completely but if I experienced this after years of only "managable" panic/ fear attacks.....what were others going thru that have never told their story...as David mentioned....or had been afraid to go to the committee....or PW's acknowledged (very courageous) victim. How it could all get down that night to the pastor of a flagship church with several dgrees and 20 years of experience...supposedly dealing with SINNERS.....being ill prepared,needing new policies now that IT IS A "NEW DAY" and then we just move on....?????that term itself is one of the most wounding to someone bleeding as a result of this SIN/CRIME committed against them.This will post much later than when I began to write after reading david's post.....my head and chest have been pounding just to get this written. Ace or others like you.....how dare you be so heartless and cold...all of you who want to "protect" Bellevue and your great...but ignorant and innocent pastor......how dare you...you protect no one that needs protecting. You are not men of courage and integrity. I was in the home of a gentle WARRIOR last night...with no agenda but to love and serve and protect....David Brown is a WARRIOR. Some of you may have begun pure but you are vile and corrupt now. I think when men in the church leadership cannot call sin sin it is a "new day" indeed. God bless the body of Christ whose "agenda" is to preserve and protect the precious purity of the Lord Jesus Christ....
test
JU said...
Oh my lord I finally got the trashcan!
9:51 AM, January 31, 2007
Hooray! So did I!!!
\0/
AOG, I heard the TESTING siren and had to come see what was happening now! LOL
What a relief to find it was just the computer misbehaving!
Bibleinayear kept posting something yesterday about "Good News" that the investigation did not uncover any other abused children.
I have been unable to post, but wanted to say that, quite frankly, I don't accept their word as truth. Just because they didn't hear from any victims does not mean that there aren't any.
Any idea when the outside investigations will be over and how their findings will be presented?
gmommylv, I am so sorry for your past and present pain. Please know that you are being lifted to our Father's throne room. I can't do much to really help, but God can. You are not alone in this!
4545: Dear brother I thought I have been making it clear. I want them to create an environment that when a victim feels they are strong enough to speak out, they can. I want an environment where they will feel safe, be trusted and believed, be loved on and given the help they so desperately need.
As for your inquiry what more would I require of Dr. Gaines? Nothing but what I have said above. Dear 4545 those stories I explained about in my earlier post are true. Do you think that in a church of over 30,000 that there are just a few victims as members? I suggest to you there are many more. I heard from one last night.
I tried to meet with Dr. Gaines when this thing first became public. I wanted to help them understand from a victim's point of view. There are other more qualified people that do this full time that could have helped. But what happened? Not one word from him. It was not until ACE intervened did I hear from from Bellevue in an official capacity. And that it David Coombs that called me.
In light of the report, don't you think having a victim's advocate helping them might have been a good idea?
No, we have not had truth and transparency when there are so many excuses. That is not just my opinion, but of too many other victims also.
David Brown
SNAP coordinator of West Tennessee and Memphis
gmommylv
Oh my goodness!!! I felt like I was writing your post. I have never known what a panic attack was, but apparently, that is what I was having sunday night, too.
Under no circumstances should you see a BBC counselor. They are already biased. Their first job is to make SG look good. For that reason, they will NEVER be able to validate any pain or heartache or hurt you are feeling. I pray that no woman that was hurt by PW would trust BBC with their personal information again. As you know, my file left the counseling office and was on D.C.'s desk. When I went to counseling 11 years ago, I was under the impression that it was CONFIDENTIAL... I was ASSURED over and over that it was CONFIDENTIAL...and we see now that it was only confidential as long as it was convenient for them.
I am trying to get in touch with the church's attorney to let them know that my file left the counseling office. Perhaps they would have a different view of that than DC or his cronies, who dont' seem to understand that this was a breach of trust.
My heart breaks for you, Gmommy...please take care of yourself.
To the other women out there: STAY AWAY FROM THE BBC COUNSELING OFFICE: IT IS JUST ANOTHER PROPAGANDA TOOL FOR SG!!!!
gmommylv: I am so sorry...your pain was palpable and I want you to know I am praying for you this minute.
Remember: II Corinthians 12:10 "Therefore I take pleasure in infirmities, in reproaches, in needs, in persecutions, in distress, for Christ's sake. For when I am weak, then I am strong"
(Not sure about that "pleasure in" part ;) but I do know the Bible is Truth. You are strong, my friend.
sotl said...
" am trying to get in touch with the church's attorney to let them know that my file left the counseling office. Perhaps they would have a different view of that than DC or his cronies, who dont' seem to understand that this was a breach of trust."
Please get in touch with your OWN attorney as well! This is more than a breach of trust!
So what exactly needs to be done about the victims? Specifically, who are you considering victims?
To be honest, to many it would not matter what Bellevue does at this point, they will find a reason not to trust them.
sickofthelies said- They are already biased. Their first job is to make SG look good. For that reason, they will NEVER be able to validate any pain or heartache or hurt you are feeling.
REPLY- That is NOT true! Period.
test 1,2,3
45,
And you know this HOW?
4545....trust is a precious thing. Once it has been betrayed, it is very hard to rebuild. I didn't say impossible...but VERY hard. IMHO, Much has to be proven from the one who has broken, or betrayed, the trust to be able to begin rebuilding it.
I realize this is a simple example, but when our children repeatedly lie to us, over a period of weeks or months, even when they are convicted and change their habits, as parents, it takes quite some time to completely trust them again. And it takes a rebuilding of the trust brick by brick. Slowly. With repentance. With responsibility.
To those victims that have already contacted me and to those that are not sure what to do, please contact me. My phone number and email address are on my profile.
I have spoken with Anna Whalley of Shelby County Crime Victims Assistance today. We are going to have support group meetings soon. You will find it helpful and you do not have to say or do anything. Often it just helps to listen to others and how they are dealing with their pain. If someone they wants to share they can. Nothing is required. All meetings are confidential and anything that is said in those meetings are confidential. I know they do help. I could not do what I do what I do today without them.
It is just another tool that the Lord has given us to help us heal. It helps us go from being a victim to being survivor.
If you are interested, please contact me.
David Brown
SNAP coordinator of West Tennessee and Memphis
As long as Jamie Fish is still on staff and with no consequences for what he did, there will never be any trust from incest survivors. He cared MORE for the perp than he did the victims.
And now we are supposed to trust him?
If you stick your hand in fire, do you do it again? ???
4545
you are right...as far as this minority member goes....too little too late.....there is NO TRUST left because there is no integrity in these men . Any presentation by SG,and the power brokers under him would be as bogus as the sunday night sermom/meeting. They are still in control of the money. That gives them the power and they know it.Those that oppose them are seen as ants...easy to step on. A pastor CALLED with his focus on the Lord would be completely broken and ashamed....especially after his actions and decisions (along with the men too drunk with power or too weak and spineless that follow him) have destoyed our credibility,friendships,our message,focus,integrity............They all need to leave... but their arrogance will keep them there and keep them strong....for a season.
I feel like OSCAR THE GROUCH with my VERY OWN TRASHCAN!!!!!! LOL
gmommylv,
I am praying for you as well this afternoon. I'm very sorry for your pain.
"Cast your cares upon the Lord and He will sustain you;
He will never let the righteous fall." Psalm 55:22
"From the ends of the earth I call to you,
I call as my heart grows faint;
lead me to the rock that is highter than I.
For you have been my refuge,
a strong tower against the foe." Psalm 61:2-3
"Keep me as the apple of your eye;
hide me in the shadow of your wings." Psalm 17:8
"How priceless is your unfailing love!
Both hi and and low among men find refuge in the shadow of your wings." Psalm 36:7
"Because you are my help,
I sing in the shadow of your wings.
My soul clings to you;
your right hand upholds me." Psalm 63:7-8
I pray today that both you, gmommylv, and sickofthelies as well as anyone else who is struggling will today find peace and comfort under the shadow of His wings--Praise God that he cares, loves and watches over His precious children!
IMA SAID...
David Brown,
God bless you for your ministry in this area. There is no telling how many you have been instrumental in helping just by your post on this blogsite. I don't happen to have a need in this area, thank God, but my heart certainly breaks for those who do. Isn't it amazing how God uses us to bring about good from such horrid areas in our lives. That one I can attest to in other areas.
I am but only one, but please know that my prayers are with you and the work you do. We may not have met in person, but we have met in spirit. God bless you again.
Ima
Me too, Charlie! We can take out our own trash now! Yippee..........
We have moved up in the world!!Oops! Need to watch that word.
I also am praying for both those hurting, who have posted, as well as those who have not.
MANKIND will let you down, but GOD will not!!
Charlie,
Another post I agree with. Family, friends, leaders, etc. All those things have in common is they will let you down at times. It's a fact because none of those people are perfect. The only Person never to let ANYONE down is God...He is always trustable and will never let you down.
For those reading, if you don't have a relationship with Jesus Christ, please post away and I'm sure people here will be glad to help you get one! And more information about that is available at http://www.lwf.org/site/PageServer?pagename=dis_WhoIsJesus
gmommylv- I know that you are hurting and going through a great deal, but that in no way justifies the name calling, attacks, lies, etc that is in every single one of your posts.
Ya'll can see the trashcans, because NBBCOF converted to the NEW version of Blogger EARLY this AM.
Last night just before the blog went out, I had posted a link to what I consider to be a very good article that is most relevant to the situation at Bellevue...and to all the other churches out there today that are seeing abuse leveled against some of the membership by the pastor and his power brokers. I pray that you will please take the time to read this...for those of you who need understanding, this may well be what provides it for you; for those of you who already have that understanding, this will only strengthen your resolve.
May I ask that you say a short prayer before reading it asking that God will help you to heed the message. It is a very short article and will not take up much of your time. This is the article right here by Bob DeWaay. Thanks...
Ima
ok, folks, I just had a harrowing experience...i had to call the fire dept becuae my son,the
mad scientist was building something with some batteries and they had a short in them, so he threw them out the window, which caught the grass on fire and it was headed for the trees near the deck...
The hoses were frozen, so we had to run a bucket brigade and then the fire dept came.
We're good, though, Praise the Lord.
Ace: I do love you my brother. But, I would be less than honest, you have appeared to be mean-spirited at times. That hurts because I know you do care and you are passionate. That is good. That holds us all accountable.
But we all should tone it down just a little, even when we see something that we don't agree with. Myself included. That is not the time to type, it is the time to be in prayer. There are days I am not on here because I am hurting and I need to be in His Word.
May we all learn and heal from this. Continue to aruge your points but please do it in love. I would never be able to win someone to my side if I attacked them and tried to make them look stupid.
I do have proof if we are kind, passionate, and very loving we can win ones over. I have an email from a very dear, passionate saint that was really after me a few weeks ago. But after we exhanged several emails we both ended in it love. And what is so important we are now both praying for each other. That is what I call win-win.
Ace: you know you are in my prayers brother. I do love you. Please continue to hold me accountable.
David Brown
SNAP coordinator of West Tennessee and Mempphis
Dear 4545: Please don't go there. This dear victim has been through a lot. You have no idea how hard this have been on some precious, wounded victims.
Please read my previous post. And let's you and I agree to practice and follow it. Ok?
David Brown
4545, I want to thank you for posting here. You are doing more to prove the point about Gaines and his defenders than anyone else. Thanks for your support.
gmommy said:
you are right...as far as this minority member goes....too little too late.....there is NO TRUST left because there is no integrity in these men . Any presentation by SG,and the power brokers under him would be as bogus as the sunday night sermom/meeting. They are still in control of the money. That gives them the power and they know it.Those that oppose them are seen as ants...easy to step on. A pastor CALLED with his focus on the Lord would be completely broken and ashamed....especially after his actions and decisions (along with the men too drunk with power or too weak and spineless that follow him) have destoyed our credibility,friendships,our message,focus,integrity............They all need to leave... but their arrogance will keep them there and keep them strong....for a season.
my response:
AMEN SISTER!!!
I have always had a trashcan. I wonder why some did and some didn't?
Please scroll up and read the link that imaresistor has provided. This is excellent Biblical teaching about elders/pastors.
Your attention, please.
I STRONGLY encourage those that have OPPOSING VIEWS to post on this forum. True debate is HEALTHY. I STRONGLY urge BOTH SIDES to engage in a HEALTHY DEBATE on the SERIOUS ISSUES that face BBC.
However, I just as STRONGLY urge those, such as DEACON 4545 & others, who frequently post for the sole purpose of being antagonistic and disruptive, not to attempt to detract with their antagonistic posts. Should they do so, which is their right, I STRONGLY urge posters on BOTH sides not to respond to those types of antagonistic posts that serve NO CONSTRUCTIVE PURPOSE, but ONLY attempt to detract from the SERIOUS ISSUES that face BBC.
I posted this last night, but due to the problems with the blog, I repost:
This could quite possibly be my last post here. In the past I have been called a troublemaker myself for trying to get clear, straight verified answers from some of you for your posts.
I have not posted on this blog in many days. This blog, for the most part, seems to be more about being right than about anything else to me. I think both sides have some apologies to make to each other. There is no conversation on this blog anymore, it has only become I am right, you are wrong.
I also think that secretly tape recording someone else is a lowly cowardly thing to do. I think the way you have ganged up on S. Coombs is terrible also. I think the way people are censored is weak. I think to assume that someone on here has changed their screen name to post is probably true.
Personally I do not want a letter from the IDC group, and the main reason for that is the attitudes people pushing for it has shown and if I get one, I will probably mark it for return to sender. You speak of arrogance from BBC leadership, yet you do not think it is shown here from all sides? Anytime you end a post with "Duh” that loses creditability in my opinion. I was talking with some I really respect the other day about this blog. He had nothing good to say about it and the reason he said that, was that Christians should build each other up. Disagreements are fine, but this blog, which may have had good intentions when it started, has really gone downhill in my opinion.
I wish you each the best. I will continue to pray for BBC, the BBC leadership, the members, and I will continue to support my pastor. Again these are my opinions. Good night and Rest well
Memphis
Bepatient said...
I have always had a trashcan. I wonder why some did and some didn't?
Reply:
You registered in the OLD Blog world. Those without a trashcan, until now, registered in the New Blog world.
offline until this evening
I have been through alot in my life also, in different ways. That still does not justify the lies, rumors, attacks, hate, etc that many of the posts on the wonderful Christian blog are filled with. There is no excuse!
You and others try and justify everything you say and do with what Dr. Gaines and others at Bellevue might or might not have done. BUT, you then hold their feet to the fire any chance you get.
BIG double standard! BIG. We are all in control of our own actions and what we say and do.
It DOES NOT matter what someone else does. This has been the attitude of this blog and so many people from day one. To try and justify all the hate filled attacks and rumors and slander and on and on by things OTHERS have done or have not done.
We are suppose to represent Christ at all times, not just when things are going well. The Bible is clear and there is NO way to defend the actions of many on here and other places over the past several months.
Many need to stop pointing fingers at others and look in the mirror. You will be held just as accountable for the stuff you are doing and saying.
David, what do you mean, do not go there? So some get a free pass?
Bloggers,
DEACON 4545 OFTEN posts for one purpose and one purpose only. OFTEN, DEACON 4545's sole purpose is to be antagonistic. As long as ya'll waste your precious time and talent feeding DEACON 4545, DEACON 4545 will continue to play that game. If you ignore DEACON 4545, then DEACON 4545 will soon go away. Ya'll need to FOCUS, FOCUS, FOCUS on the problems at BBC and quit playing into his hands by playing his game. I know that it is hard to resist taking the BAIT, but you must RESIST THE TEMPTATION.
Esther said...
"4545, I want to thank you for posting here. You are doing more to prove the point about Gaines and his defenders than anyone else. Thanks for your support."
Esther...I certainly agree with you. They are doing a great job.
charlie- Try reading my last post and responding.
4545 said...
charlie- Try reading my last post and responding.
Reply:
I did both.
Oh, so you think the posts on this blog from "your side" of the issues are good and glorify Christ?
***passing 4545 my mirror***
Sorry Deacon 4545,
I'll DEBATE with you, But I WON'T ARGUE with you.
I am not wanting to argue. My post before was very clear. What in my long post above was incorrect and what do you have issues with?
ace wrote:
"David,
"Will you please tell these kind folks that I really am not a bad person? It would be appreciated. They don't respect me but if they heard it from someone they do respect in might open their minds up a little."
I don't know if you're a "bad" person or not because I don't know you, but perhaps the kind folks would like to see some of the e-mails you've been sending me in the past 15 hours or so. Questioning my salvation, for example. Wanting to play a game of "20 Questions" with my identity (or with yours). Piously claiming that you "tried" to talk your "less mature" friends into not hijacking the blog last night, but you weren't sure they would listen to you.
Puhleeze! You've been banned from posting here permanently because of the discord you've caused in the past. You've "apologized" ad nauseum and just keep repeating your disruptive behavior. Now, kindly stop posting, and stop e-mailing me.
Thank you,
NBBCOF
4545 said...
I am not wanting to argue. My post before was very clear. What in my long post above was incorrect and what do you have issues with?
Reply:
My Brother, if you don't know, then nothing that I can say will help you.
I have been through alot in my life also, in different ways. That still does not justify the lies, rumors, attacks, hate, etc that many of the posts on the wonderful Christian blog are filled with. There is no excuse!
You and others try and justify everything you say and do with what Dr. Gaines and others at Bellevue might or might not have done. BUT, you then hold their feet to the fire any chance you get.
BIG double standard! BIG. We are all in control of our own actions and what we say and do.
It DOES NOT matter what someone else does. This has been the attitude of this blog and so many people from day one. To try and justify all the hate filled attacks and rumors and slander and on and on by things OTHERS have done or have not done.
We are suppose to represent Christ at all times, not just when things are going well. The Bible is clear and there is NO way to defend the actions of many on here and other places over the past several months.
Many need to stop pointing fingers at others and look in the mirror. You will be held just as accountable for the stuff you are doing and saying.
David, what do you mean, do not go there? So some get a free pass?
Sorry for the double post.
Deacon 4545,
Use your trashcan.
Charlie, Do you all really have deacons who are not familiar with the guidelines laid out in Titus and Timothy? Deacons who think it is hateful to point out unbiblical behavior of ministers and leaders?
It is interesting but when Paul is giving Timothy the guidelines he does not feel he has to rehash what was written in Acts about teachers and the Beatitudes that Jesus taught the 'disciples'. But he did feel the need to warn him many times about those teaching something other than what is in the scriptures. And not just parts of it, either.
Then we have John calling out Diontrephes in a letter to be read for all time about abusing his authority. Not mention calling out Peter! There is so much meat in scripture to guide us in dealing with false teaching if we just take the time to study.
People keep throwing out being Christ like. What was Christ like?
Ok folks, a post regarding the legality of recording conversations:
But first, my sincere thanks to all of the positive posts re the recordings and the press coverage. Praise God for anything good that came out of that stuff, and I'll take the blame for anything bad that happened.
Now, about legal issues:
My actions were completely covered under Tennessee Code, Section 39-13-601(a)(1)(C&D) and 39-13-601(b)(5).
39-13-601(b)(5) says: "(5) It is lawful under §§ 39-13-601 — 39-13-603 and title 40, chapter 6, part 3 for a person not acting under color of law to intercept a wire, oral, or electronic communication, where the person is a party to the communication or where one of the parties to the communication has given prior consent to the interception, unless the communication is intercepted for the purpose of committing any criminal or tortious act in violation of the constitution or laws of the state of Tennessee."
As for dissimination of recordings, 39-13-601(a)(1)(C&D)
Subsection C&D: "[A person commits an offense who:] Intentionally discloses, or endeavors to disclose, to any other person the contents of any wire, oral or electronic communication, knowing or having reason to know that the information was obtained through the interception of a wire, oral, or electronic communication in violation of this subsection (a); or
"(D) Intentionally uses, or endeavors to use, the contents of any wire, oral or electronic communication, knowing or having reason to know, that the information was obtained through the interception of a wire, oral or electronic communication in violation of this subsection (a)."
Since the recordings were obtained legally under 39-13-601(b)(5), 39-13-601(a)(1)(C&D) does not attach.
That said and cited, my actions were completely within the bounds of the law. I recorded for self-protection and a record of the truth, not for criminal or tortious purposes.
Now, a question: Why is it that many are focused on the legal issues behind a tape recording of a Pastor instead of why that pastor refuses to release financial records under TC 48-66-102? Or better asked, why are many concerned not about the fact that a pastor at BBC says he's not interested in the law, but in the fact that someone recorded him saying that. Come on folks.
esther- Way to try and dodge my post.
Esther said...
Charlie, Do you all really have deacons who are not familiar with the guidelines laid out in Titus and Timothy? Deacons who think it is hateful to point out unbiblical behavior of ministers and leaders?
Reply:
Sadly there are those, both deacon and nondeacon, male and female, that are blinded and will follow a MAN irregardless. I answer only to GOD. I will only follow a MAN as long as HE FOLLOWS GOD!!!! If MAN'S path isn't straight, he walks it without me.
I should also add the the Tennessee wording looks like it's lifted almost exactly from 18 USC 2510, "The Electronic Communications Privacy Act of 1986." That being the case, my actions were covered under both state and federal law.
esther said,
People keep throwing out being Christ like. What was Christ like?
That, my friend, is an excellent question.
GREAT POST, JM!!!!!!!
Josh,
I agree. We have seen one act in public and one act behind the scenes. It is hard for them to play the shell game when you have it recorded.
Anyway, we are always being watched by God and should act accordingly. I think the recording is a wonderful illustration of what many have been saying for months. This leadership has no desire to be transparent.
custos
Bravo!
Unfortunately,in the current atmosphere at BBC it would seem a good idea to include a pocket recording device in each new member packet -- you know,just to keep those pesky leaders in line...
Don't know whether to laugh or cry.
I'm at the point of both. :(
Maybe we should sell them in the bookstore,too.
Josh,
Could you refresh my memory? How long did it take to get the BI-laws. Did you not have to cite some statute to get them? Who was the leadership trying to protect in this case?
gmommy,
It was our pleasure to share our place of refuge and safety with you last evening - to share fellowship, understanding and Christ's love.
We lift you up in prayer during this week, which includes an anniversary in your painful story. Those who haven't experienced (or been very close to) excruciating personal violations have no way to understand the depths of physical trauma that can be reintroduced by later incidents that remind us of our pain. It was a privilege to pray God's continued healing in your life as we enjoy fellowship together.
Call or email anytime. My email address is in my profile.
David B: Thanks so much for your diligent, courageous work as an advocate for gmommy and others. Your Warrior spirit and strength no doubt grows from your own experience and trauma. God's amazing love and grace reaches down in His redeeming bad circumstance too. Your trauma has been transformed into gmommy's blessing. God's blessing on you, David, for your faithfulness to Him and all victims.
May God use all of this pain in our faith community to grow powerful, courageous warriors for His kingdom. And for now, there are many wounded who just need safehaven and comfort.
Statistics would indicate the probability of hundreds of victims in BBC - a very sobering thought indeed. What do they all sense as a result of how this is handled? My heart goes out to all of them, known or unknown.
Does anyone know why Gaines was removed from the conference at Union University in February? If you go to the website you'll see that Gaines has been replaced by a pastor from Colorado, speaking on the exact same topic. What's interesting is that the November 2006 press release announcing the speakers has been modified, replacing Gaines with the new speaker, as though Gaines was never scheduled! Even the .pdf file conference brochure has been reposted without Gaines!
I don't know for sure, but it sure looks like the Sunday report opened up UU's eyes....and as you all know Gaines is an alumnus!
FBC Questions has written an article on this, and has requested Mac Brunson follow suite at:
http://fbcjaxquestions.blogspot.com.
Dear Brothers and Sisters in Christ Jesus,
Could it be that Bro. Jim Haywood wanted the link to Bellevue's site deleted from the Saving Bellevue site because he has discerned, by God's Holy Spirit, a danger lurking therein? If Bellevue's leadership cannot be trusted (which indeed they CANNOT be trusted), why would we think we could trust their website??? Since the leadership there at BBC CANNOT be trusted, why would anyone want a link directly to their site? We removed our link to their site from our website back in late November or December. Bro. Jim is quite able to have the pages of the "Investigative Team and Personnel Committee Reports" placed on Saving Bellevue's site without us going to Bellevue's site at all. Perhaps he will do this for everyone. Bro. Jim is a mighty man of God on whom Jesus' guiding Hand rests.....thus he does not bow to any man upon the earth in anything that God had put upon his heart to have on his website. It is to Jesus ALONE that he bows. Only in Heaven will we know all of the rewards he will have as a result of all that he has done at the Saving Bellevue site. We love him and appreciate him so very much. Let us lift Bro. Jim up in prayer faithfully.....faithfully praying for David Brown as well.....and ever praying faithfully for ALL that are praying that God will save Bellevue Baptist Church from utter destruction with "Ichabod" written, by God's Own Hand, over the door should The LORD Jesus find that His Holy Spirit must leave the building. Perhaps, if this should occur, God will allow His faithful remnant to meet in the Fellowship Hall as my husband dreamed a couple of weeks ago.
"For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God; and if it first begin at us, what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of God? And if the righteous scarcely be saved, where shall the ungodly and the sinner appear?" I Peter 4:17-18.
God has not forgotten all of us. He has lifted His mighty Hand against the "leadership" at Bellevue and His best is yet to come. It is sooner than we realize. He has come down as a mighty warrior to dispel the spiritual darkness and devil's playground that presently dwells hidden away in Bellevue. He truly is doing a marvelous job. His Name WILL be exalted and His Name is above ALL Names. It is the glorious, majestic, and matchless Name of our LORD and eternal Savior...JESUS!!!
Let us lift up our eyes and hearts for our redemption is on the way. Once again we state..."It is sooner than we realize."
Blessed be the Name of The LORD Jesus....and may He bless each one of you.
Sincerely in The LORD and ONLY Savior Jesus Christ,
Stephen and Bonita Ann Richie
Living Hope In Jesus
www.livinghopeinjesus.com
FriendinJax,
He (Steve Gaines) was also scheduled to speak at a church in Corinth, MS, Wheeler Grove Baptist Church on the 26th, last Friday in the afternoon as a part of the Bailey Smith Ministries, Conference #2. I can't tell you why, but he didn't show. The brochure says on the front, Real Evangelism-Feaaturing America's Favorite Preacher and Musicians. Gaines picture was printed in the brochure.
friendinfx,
let me clear up...there was someone who spoke in his place.
Ima
I applaud UU's decision to remove him from the convention. It would not be good to set the example that you can fail to protect your own sheep and there are no consequences. Other pastors look to BBC for leadership. Sadly, we dropped the ball, and if this, and other conferences, allow SG to speak, it will only set the wrong example for THOSE pastors how to handle something like this if it should happen at their churches.
Having said all that...I feel very bad for SG. He did it all to himself, but I still feel bad for him. I am sorry that, for whatever reason, he made very poor decisions. Maybe he WAS in over his head. He tried to tell our committee that he did not want the job, but they kept at it. He probly should have stayed at Gardendale. With the money that has been reported that they offered him, I'm sure it was very appealing.
But his actions have consequences. He failed to follow the Bible in what he should do.
This is one of those things that, even though I am hurting over the events, I get no pleasure AT ALL from watching this man destroy his own career.
I am praying for SG and his family.
socwork: esther said,
People keep throwing out being Christ like. What was Christ like?
That, my friend, is an excellent question. "
I am dead serious about the question. I thought I knew what being 'Christ like' was all about, too.
As I have really studied over the past 2 years, I have been astonished that much of what I was taught is just not the full picture. And without the full picture we cannot be saved. It is quite scary.
We have made Jesus into this effeminate hippie nice guy who never showed anger and who only speaks of love, peace and forgiveness. There is another side we have conveniently forgotten. We have reduced Him to what WE want Him to be like. He was God in the flesh!
We even have pictures of Jesus that make him look like a handsome movie star yet Isaiah tells us he was 'comely'. (Should we have pictures of 'God' in the flesh at all?)
He had the attributes of His Father in heaven. The God of the OT. He tell us all through John that everything He says and does comes from God. The same God of the OT.
His first sermons were ones of 'repentance' not love. He did not come and say, Love me. He came and said, Repent, Follow Me. His 'love' was manifested on the cross.
The prevalent teaching of the 'carnal' Christian, which is a lie, says we are righteous with God because of our 'position before God' because of the Blood of Christ. We said a prayer and got baptized so we have 'position' before God.
But the Bible says different. If we do not desire Holiness we will not see God. If we do not have a new nature, we are not Born Again. So if we are not righteous in 'practice', our nature was not changed. If our nature was not changed, we need to question if we indeed are Born Again.
Do we hate what God hates? Do we love what God loves? We are to hate sin. Our sin…sin all around us. It should make us mourn and weep. It should make us sick.
Evidences if we are really Born Again are if we can see throughout our lives that God has faithfully been cleansing us of all our filthiness and tearing out all the 'idols' out of our lives. Cleansing us of our worldliness, selfishness and carnality with discipline and chastisment. This is regeneration. (He removes our heart of stone and gives us a heart of flesh. A heart of flesh views sin differently than a heart of stone)
We see the doctrine of the carnal Christian taught in so many churches. It is not true.
Folks if we do not mourn over the smallest of sins, we should question our salvation. This is very hard teaching for me.
Your best friend is the one who tells you the most truth. Hard truth. I thank God my best friend, did.
Salvation is not a ticket to heaven. It is a supernatural work of God. It changes us. Our very nature changes. He puts His Spirit within us. He is dwelling there. We are changed. We are never perfect but we are obviously growing in Holiness. It is obvious to all.
The attributes of Christ are not clichés. They are deadly serious. We cannot walk in the broad way and be saved. If pastors preached the real truth, there would be a mass exodus from churches all over this country.
Jesus told us we could judge a book by its cover. Yes. He said, "You will know them by their fruit". Not by what they 'say' but by what they do.
He said, if you do not have the 'fruit', you are not a Christian. A good tree cannot produce bad fruit. This is NOT works, it is the Words of our Savior. We call people 'good trees' all the time that are producing bad fruit. (Good fruit is a supernatural Work of God)
He does NOT say: Everyone who does not profess me as Lord is cut down and thrown in the fire.
Think about that.
He says: Every tree that does NOT produce good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire.
That is the ‘practice; of Christianity that comes from regeneration and sanctification which is a supernatural Work of God
“He says, Depart from Me, you who have practiced lawlessness. (No law) He says, I never knew you. Depart from Me those of you who CALLED THEMSELVES MY DISCIPLES BUT YOU LIVE AS THOUGH I NEVER GAVE YOU A LAW TO OBEY. Where do we find that ‘law’? In Scripture. He is talking about commands and precepts of the NT.
Does that scare anyone? It scares me. I FEAR God.
Are we the wise man who builds the house on the rock? Or are we on sand?
Jesus said, Go and make your election sure.
Our professions of Faith are worth nothing unless a supernatural Work of God has taken place in our hearts.
When we get to heaven and see Jesus, we will not be facing a stranger. Because we will have known Him for a long time before that.
I pray the Lord will discipline me if I have said anything that is NOT the full truth.
Tammy..(RE: 11:38 AM post)..
Thank you for your wonderful message of love and support. We need all the prayers we can get from everybody--member or not. It is good to know that there are many out there reading this blog who can see the truth and are willing to say so to us.
Please continue to pray for all matters, members, and victims surrounding this situation.
Dee
ComeLordJesus said...
"God has not forgotten all of us. He has lifted His mighty Hand against the "leadership" at Bellevue and His best is yet to come. It is sooner than we realize. He has come down as a mighty warrior to dispel the spiritual darkness and devil's playground that presently dwells hidden away in Bellevue. He truly is doing a marvelous job. His Name WILL be exalted and His Name is above ALL Names. It is the glorious, majestic, and matchless Name of our LORD and eternal Savior...JESUS!!!"
*******
AMEN AND HALLELUJAH!, Brother and Sister Richie. We appreciate your wonderful messages of hope and encouragement and ask that you please continue to pray your mighty prayers for all of us at Bellevue.
Dee
esther said,
I am dead serious about the question.
I figured. I was too. That's why I said it was an excellent question.
Ace... I left a message for you...
please check!
Okay...I am doing it. I am posting this article here BECAUSE I think it is important you all read it. I am leaving now going to church and supper there, so you can all get me while I am gone. :) This fits Bellevue and your situation there as it does so many other churches around the world...including the one my husband and I were in most of our lives.
Where Are the Elders Who Guard the Flock?
By Bob DeWaay
This past weekend I received a call not unlike many dozens of previous communications from Christians concerned about unbiblical practices being introduced into their local churches. This particular one expressed a committed Christian’s concern that their large evangelical church was introducing mysticism and eastern practices under the guise of youth ministry. This church had even created a shrine of sorts in the church basement for young people to practice this mysticism.
The caller had researched this subject for several months, documented her church’s new practices and described why the practices were dangerous and unbiblical. Confident that her findings would help correct the church’s direction, she brought her research to the church leadership, only to be mollified and warned about having a bad attitude. In response she asked the leaders to compare these practices to Scripture, but to no avail. The story is all too common; why does it continue to happen?
Most evangelical churches have elders; these elders are responsible for the Lord’s flock. My interviews with people who have witnessed their churches being infiltrated by unbiblical teachings and practices have opened my eyes to a serious problem in our evangelical movement: elders who do not think that what is being taught and practiced in their church is important enough to judge biblically. This is serious. In many cases, these elders consider their primary job to be—support the senior pastor and his reputation at all costs. Their secondary job—watch over the financial well being of the church as a corporation. Their tertiary job—make sure no one rocks the boat. Thus, in these elders’ interpretation of their job description, the problem in the church becomes those concerned members who care about the integrity of the gospel message.
Most evangelical churches take seriously most of the qualifications of elders as listed in passages like 1Timothy 3. This means that they look for good family men who are faithful to their wives, have a good reputation, and are not guilty of scandalous behavior. And they do well to follow these guidelines. But these qualifications are not the end of the story. As a matter of fact, many unconverted people meet most of these guidelines. But a more important matter has been pushed aside: the requirement that elders guard the Lord’s flock from the wolves.
Let us consider Acts 20 where Paul gathered the elders in Ephesus and gave them instructions. Here is what Paul said:
Be on guard for yourselves and for all the flock, among which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers, to shepherd the church of God which He purchased with His own blood. I know that after my departure savage wolves will come in among you, not sparing the flock; and from among your own selves men will arise, speaking perverse things, to draw away the disciples after them. (Acts 20:28-30)
Paul is telling us that elders MUST guard the flock against wolves who bring false teaching. In this most important role, many are failing.
For example, someone recently told me of his frustrations with the elders of his church. The church, traditionally very conservative and solid biblically, began promoting Theophostic ministry—a ministry that involves teachings and processes that are not Biblical.[i] So he appealed to the elders, giving them evidence of serious error in this movement’s teachings and of the harmful consequences of allowing it. Rather than searching the Scripture and comparing the teachings of Theophostics with the Bible and making a decision, they referred the member to the counseling pastor who was promoting the ministry. The elders had no desire to concern themselves with this matter. If the reports I have received from dozens of people are true, this is too common.
Many elders are successful businessmen, but being a successful businessman neither qualifies nor disqualifies a man from being an elder. Churches seem to lean toward selecting such people because churches want to be successful businesses. But did Paul tell Titus to select businessmen-elders when he said: “holding fast the faithful word which is in accordance with the teaching, so that he will be able both to exhort in sound doctrine and to refute those who contradict” (Titus 1:9)? No. If a man has no willingness to study and learn sound doctrine, is content to have only a superficial knowledge of the Bible, and is unwilling to correct false doctrine—that person is NOT QUALIFIED to be an elder. So a remedy for many of our church ills would be for our churches to select biblically qualified elders who are truly ‘apt to teach’ (1Timothy 3:2; 2Timothy 2:24 KJV). If we required this of all elders, we would not have all the false doctrine coming into the church that we see today. We would have elders with backbone who would even stand against the senior pastor if necessary should that pastor depart from the truth. A pastor who loves the truth and desires integrity in the church would earnestly desire to have elders like that around him, not merely people who are committed to whatever program he wants to promote.
Paul’s warning to the elders in Ephesus came true. Studying 1 and 2 Timothy, we find that false teachers did arise “from their own midst.” So Paul instructed Timothy about how to deal with the situation. He wrote: “As I urged you upon my departure for Macedonia, remain on at Ephesus, in order that you may instruct certain men not to teach strange doctrines” (1Timothy 1:3).
The Greek word translated “doctrine” or “teaching” is found 15 times in Timothy and Titus out of 21 total references in the New Testament. The so-called “pastoral epistles” emphasize the importance of doctrine. Paul said that elders who “work hard in word and doctrine” should be given special honor. Elders must be “apt to teach.” Those who go astray in doctrine are to be corrected and if they refuse to repent they are to be rejected (Titus 3:10).
Combining what we know about elders from Acts 20, 1 and 2 Timothy, and Titus, it is clear that guarding the flock from false doctrine and teaching true doctrine is the elders’ most important role. Churches endanger the flock when they choose elders based on their business acumen, that they seem to be moral men and “nice guys,” or are likely to support the senior pastor at any cost while ignoring the importance of doctrine. Pastors who do not teach sound doctrine from the pulpit exacerbate the problem by making it unlikely that a pool of men qualified to teach the truth and correct error will ever arise in that church.
The answer is simple: we need to teach sound doctrine from the pulpit and as God raises up men trained in sound doctrine who love the truth and are willing to defend the truth against the wolves (and who meet the other qualifications) should be appointed elders. Paul’s words emphatically summarize this:
All Scripture is inspired by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, for training in righteousness; that the man of God may be adequate, equipped for every good work. I solemnly charge you in the presence of God and of Christ Jesus, who is to judge the living and the dead, and by His appearing and His kingdom: preach the word; be ready in season and out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort, with great patience and instruction. For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but wanting to have their ears tickled, they will accumulate for themselves teachers in accordance to their own desires; (2Timothy 3:16 – 4:3)
Pray that God will raise up people in our evangelical churches who will do what Paul instructs and that local churches would have godly elders who will guard the well being of the Lord’s flock.
http://cicministry.org/commentary/issue79.htm
friendinjax 3:10pm :
ima 3:49 :
Interesting to note that Gaines is also scheduled to be opening night speaker at Bailey Smith Ministries conference in Woodstock, Ga next week Feb 7 -- yeah, that's a Wednesday!
Will he show?
http://www.baileysmith.org/conf_c07.asp
Telos,
Good question. After others tried for months to get copies of the bylaws, I called the church in late August and asked. They said they didn't give them out but I could come in and view them. That policy is against the law (not giving them out), so I wrote a letter citing the statute. They complied immediately. As for who they were protecting, I could only speculate that it might be their own grip on the church. When rules come into play, everyone is bound. Our leaders would do well to reread the Magna Carta.
But the above creates an interesting time line:
Pre-August, multiple people try to get copies of the bylaws, and all are denied.
Late August: I cite the law (48-66-102) to the church, and they comply, releasing the bylaws.
January: I and others request materials covered under 48-66-102. Those request are flatly denied, with the following admission from David Coombs: "I'm not interested in what the Tennessee Code says."
What changed between the August and January other than multiple indication of further mismanagement at BBC?
If there is mismanagement, wouldn’t it make sense to deny access to records that could prove even greater impropriety?
snowbird,
Is interesting isn't it? Seems he is on the road more than he is at Bellevue anyway.
Perhaps everybody, including him, would be better off if he'd just join the circuit? A thought...
Ima,
Thank you for that incisive article. What a ray of light on the modus operandi of BBC.
2006huldah,
you are most welcome. Those of you standing for truth are such great examples of standing alone and being put through the fire. You inspire me to be stronger in my faith and to stand even when it is not easy nor popular but the RIGHT thing to do. Dr. Rogers taught about teaching our children to stand alone. It is hard but I tell you that you can look in the mirror a lot easier and sleep well at night too.
To me it is a no brainer as to what should happen in the coming days at BBC. Hopefully more and more people will have their eyes opened to the truth and will come along side of those who have stood for the truth.
God bless,
Tammy
re: snowbird's 4:40 PM post:
I have emailed that conference in Georgia, advising them of the Paul Williams situation and respectfully asking them to rescind their invitation to SG to speak. We do not want Steve Gaines to redefine to the pastors of this nation how to handle a pedophile on staff.
Still praying for SG.
My dear brothers and sisters: Today I have heard from yet another victim that remained virtually silent about their abuse for almost 30 years!. This person has been a member of Bellevue for some time. They still are.
Later tonight I will post a link to more about their story. If someone wants to know how to handle a situation as this when you become aware of abuse, print it out and follow it. It is the only way to do it.
Remember my comment earlier today about SCREAM and then call someone in authority. We did. I will tell you more later.
David Brown
SNAP coordinator of West Tennessee and Memphis
Opps: There is NO connection with the present case at Bellevue and this one. Entirely different perp. But this one is a serial perp.
David Brown
custos,
Are you aware of any investigation into the revised by laws being locked in the offices of Bob Fargason/Bruck Brooke. Have you heard any thing that would suggest that we actually have revised by-laws. Would Mrs Rogers or Bob Sorrell know? I am still having problems believing that what they gave you is ALL we have. Dr Rogers used the SBC by-laws to turn them around. I cannot help but believe he felt a need to protect the church. Who would know the truth of this?
Mom4
That is a GREAT question that I have wanted the answer to...
Hi all. I just wanted to post something that happened to me today. But first I'd like to say that I had no first hand knowledge of what it felt like to be treated in an "uncivil" manner by a Christian brother or sister such as the way I was treated. My spouse kept telling me that friends were being treated this way by people in high positions at our church and I kept shrugging it off as, they must be overly sensitive. Well, now I know what they were talking about. (and I apologize for thinking that) I am going to post this in generalities because I don't won't to name the names or establishment, but I have no doubt that the people who I am speaking of will probably read this. So to you I say, thank you for showing me your true colors. It was very eye opening. I'll be sure and let others know about your establishment.
We were considering our family being part of an establishment that we had been a part of before but had to leave due to unforeseen circumstances. We had some concerns about some things that had happened before while we were there, and then as we left, but we did not address it at the time because we did not think we were going to go back and didn't see any need in opening a can of worms. (BTW, these concerns were just some little personal things that we wanted to address, no major sinful issues) Well, when we decided we might want to go back, we first wanted to address these concerns. So we contacted the person in the top authority at this place, (someone that is also in positions and committees at our church) I was told this place had an open door policy, so I left a message for this person.
I was contacted back by someone under this person and asked if I could address the concerns with them instead. I politely declined and said "I'd rather not speak with you, I'd rather speak directly with so and so" I was told that this person was too busy to speak with me and I should just tell them my concerns. Again I politely declined. To make a long story short, I was yelled at and called names because I was asking to speak with this person.
So I sent a 4 page email to this higher up person and poured my heart and concerns out to them. I in turn received a short response that basically said, "we can't do anything to make you happy because your expectations are too high, all of my responses my seem to be defensive, and we do not appear to be a good partner for your family. May God lead you to that place that fulfills your needs and expectations."
WOW, does this sound vaguely familiar?? Kind of like the "if you don't like it you can leave it" mentality of some in authority at our church. What ever happened to trying to "discuss" things in order to come to a decision that both sides can be comfortable with?
The moral of this story is, that some Christians are all lovey dovey as long as your going along with them, but if you have questions or concerns you better hit the road.
I am soooooo saddened by all of this. Thanks for listening.
notonaside,
WOW, that smells of arrogance and what do we do about it? Who do we talk to?
light,
Your welcome to email me if you'd like more detail. Click on my name and my email's listed in my profile.
sickofthelies at 4:46 PM,
Would it be more effective if you contacted Bailey Smith Ministries directly? Not sure how much control the host church has over the guest speakers arriving.
Just a thought . . . .
Imaresistor -- mmmm, keep him out of town on the circuit, eh? I'm torn between the attractiveness of that (for us), and the value of SOTL's efforts here. Maybe he could speak there on Sunday too. :)
Here's the First Baptist Woodstock webpage about the evangelism conference, Gaines leading off on Wednesday.
http://www.fbcw.org/events/1513.html
testing
So that's what that trashcan looks like... I almost believed that it was a cousin of the snipe and ya'll had me huntin for it ;)
imaresistor said...
FriendinJax,
He (Steve Gaines) was also scheduled to speak at a church in Corinth, MS, Wheeler Grove Baptist Church on the 26th, last Friday in the afternoon as a part of the Bailey Smith Ministries, Conference #2. I can't tell you why, but he didn't show. The brochure says on the front, Real Evangelism-Feaaturing America's Favorite Preacher and Musicians. Gaines picture was printed in the brochure.
snowbird said...
friendinjax 3:10pm :
ima 3:49 :
Interesting to note that Gaines is also scheduled to be opening night speaker at Bailey Smith Ministries conference in Woodstock, Ga next week Feb 7 -- yeah, that's a Wednesday!
Reply:
Looks like the common denominator is Bailey Smith Ministries.
25+yrs@BBC said...
So that's what that trashcan looks like... I almost believed that it was a cousin of the snipe and ya'll had me huntin for it ;)
REPLY:
I made a comment earlier about feeling like OSCAR THE GROUGH with my OWN trashcan!!!
notonaside- Can you please give more details? It was very hard to follow and does not really tell us anything.
I have been through alot in my life also, in different ways. That still does not justify the lies, rumors, attacks, hate, etc that many of the posts on the wonderful Christian blog are filled with. There is no excuse!
You and others try and justify everything you say and do with what Dr. Gaines and others at Bellevue might or might not have done. BUT, you then hold their feet to the fire any chance you get.
BIG double standard! BIG. We are all in control of our own actions and what we say and do.
It DOES NOT matter what someone else does. This has been the attitude of this blog and so many people from day one. To try and justify all the hate filled attacks and rumors and slander and on and on by things OTHERS have done or have not done.
We are suppose to represent Christ at all times, not just when things are going well. The Bible is clear and there is NO way to defend the actions of many on here and other places over the past several months.
Many need to stop pointing fingers at others and look in the mirror. You will be held just as accountable for the stuff you are doing and saying.
David, what do you mean, do not go there? So some get a free pass?
Do some of you not have anything better to do, than to spend your time finding out where Dr. Gaines is every second of every day?
Bloggers,
Deacon 4545 OFTEN post for one purpose and one purpose only. OFTEN, his sole purpose is to be antagonistic. As long as ya'll waste your precious time and talent feeding him, he will continue to play his game. If you ignore him, then he will soon go away. Ya'll need to FOCUS, FOCUS, FOCUS on the problems at BBC and quit playing into his hands by playing his game. I know that it is hard to resist taking his BAIT, but you must RESIST THE TEMPTATION.
4545,
I was mostly just venting. If you don't get anything out of it it's ok. Like I said, the moral of the story is that I expect to be treated better by a Christian establishment than I might would be treated by a worldy one, especially when the person at that establishment is a fellow church member, but as I was told, I guess my expectations were just too high.
notonaside- So because of what happened, you are just going to come to the conclusion that all the rumors and things you have heard are automatically true? Trust me, they are not.
Would you not expect something different from a Christian blog than you see on here?
Bloggers,
Deacon 4545 OFTEN post for one purpose and one purpose only. OFTEN, his sole purpose is to be antagonistic. As long as ya'll waste your precious time and talent feeding him, he will continue to play his game. If you ignore him, then he will soon go away. Ya'll need to FOCUS, FOCUS, FOCUS on the problems at BBC and quit playing into his hands by playing his game. I know that it is hard to resist taking his BAIT, but you must RESIST THE TEMPTATION.
So, how many of you think that Bellevue should give out a list of all the members and their personal information WITHOUT each members permission?
Bloggers,
Deacon 4545 OFTEN post for one purpose and one purpose only. OFTEN, his sole purpose is to be antagonistic. As long as ya'll waste your precious time and talent feeding him, he will continue to play his game. If you ignore him, then he will soon go away. Ya'll need to FOCUS, FOCUS, FOCUS on the problems at BBC and quit playing into his hands by playing his game. I know that it is hard to resist taking his BAIT, but you must RESIST THE TEMPTATION.
"For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged; and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again." Matthew 7:2
This statement is not a haphazard guess, it is an eternal law of God. Whatever judgment you give, it is measured to you again. There is a difference between retaliation and retribution. Jesus says that the basis of life is retribution - "with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again." If you have been shrewd in finding out the defects in others, remember that will be exactly the measure given to you. Life serves back in the coin you pay. This law works from God's throne downwards (cf. Psalm 18:25-26).
Romans 2 applies it in a still more definite way, and says that the one who criticizes another is guilty of the very same thing. God looks not only at the act, He looks at the possibility. We do not believe the statements of the Bible to begin with. For instance, do we believe this statement, that the things we criticize in others we are guilty of ourselves? The reason we see hypocrisy and fraud and unreality in others is because they are all in our own hearts. The great characteristic of a saint is humility - Yes, all those things and other evils would have been manifested in me but for the grace of God, therefore I have no right to judge.
Jesus says - "Judge not, that ye be not judged" if you do judge, it will be measured to you exactly as you have judged. Who of us would dare to stand before God and say - "My God, judge me as I have judged my fellow men?" We have judged our fellow men as sinners; if God should judge us like that we would be in hell. God judges us through the marvellous Atonement of Jesus Christ.
Oswald Chambers
If only more on this blog read Oswald Chambers
Bloggers,
Deacon 4545 OFTEN post for one purpose and one purpose only. OFTEN, his sole purpose is to be antagonistic. As long as ya'll waste your precious time and talent feeding him, he will continue to play his game. If you ignore him, then he will soon go away. Ya'll need to FOCUS, FOCUS, FOCUS on the problems at BBC and quit playing into his hands by playing his game. I know that it is hard to resist taking his BAIT, but you must RESIST THE TEMPTATION.
4545,
Have you ever been a Bible Fellowship teacher?
Overflowing said:
"4545
I'm outta here for awhile. There are about 20 of these little people that have internet addictions(especially New BBC) and spend all day on here. I'm not reducing myself any longer to their level."
25+ wrote:
"these little people" Jesus died for. I'm glad He humbled Himself for us. Paul did write that there were "not many mighty"... I guess that explains why you are upset. jmo
Overflowinggrace wrote:
"If you only knew the damage you are doing for the cause of Christ.
Please stop."
10:36 PM, January 29, 2007
25+ wrote:
"Overflowing... you just spoke in the most condescending way... do you even understand what you said? If you really want this to stop, then I can help you from the side of those disillusioned with SG... Do you want to know the solution?"
10:41 PM, January 29, 2007
No response
25+ wrote:
"I hope that you want to know. It would not be painless, but I believe it would glorify God. Well heregoes:
Transparency, real two-way, loving communication face to face with those who are upset. No communications committees, everyone allowed there, make peace with Mark Sharpe, Craig Parker, J. Haywood, etc. Make things right--whatever it takes. Let the light shine on what happened with the "dream" and let the former CFO put everything on the table and make things right. Remove suspicion. Provide things honestly in the sight of all men. Let the buck stop with the pastor... read the list I have posted. It was not posted for the purpose hurting, but like surgery--to cut to heal. Transparency, honesty, a new beginning to rebuild integrity... all jmo-- but all in accord with His Word."
10:55 PM, January 29, 2007
No response
25+ wrote:
"Dear God in heaven, please, please, give them ears to hear."
11:01 PM, January 29, 2007
blotter?
For it is time for judgment to begin with the household of God; and if it begins with us first, what will be the outcome for those who do not obey the gospel of God? 1 Peter 4:17
If some on this blog would only read the Word of God more.
Whah! I still didn't get a trash can.
We do, however, speak a message of wisdom among the mature, but not the wisdom of this age or the rulers of this age, who are coming to nothing. No, we speak of God's secret wisdom, a wisdom that has been hidden and that God destined for our glory before time began. None of the rulers of the age understood it, for if they had, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory. However, as it is written: "No eye has seen, no ear has heard, no mind has conceived what God has prepared for those who love him"--but God has revealed it to us by his Spirit. The Spirit searches all things, even the deep things of God. For who among men knows the thoughts of a man except the man's spirit within him? In the same way, no one knows the thoughts of God except the Spirit of God. We have not received the spirit of the world but the Spirit who is from God, that we may understand what God has freely given us. This is what we speak, not in words taught us by human wisdom but in words taught by the Spirit, expressing spiritual truths in spiritual words. The man without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him, and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually discerned. The spiritual man makes judgments about all things, but he himself is not subject to any man's judgment: "For who has known the mind of the Lord that he may instruct him?" But we have the mind of Christ. 1 Cor 2:6-16
overflowinggrace said...
4545,
Have you ever been a Bible Fellowship teacher?
7:59 PM, January 31, 2007
This chapter referenced from Matthew 7 on judging others is referring to a judgement of condemnation under the law, something the Pharasees were quite good at. Jesus was admonishing them for their judgement of others according to their religious works rather than the condition of their hearts. He goes on in John 7:24 to tell us that while we should not judge one another by outward appearance of religion or religious works (piety), but by their deeds of righteousness from their hearts - fruits if you will - and that we are gifted with the Holy Spirit's discernment to divide the bad (spiritual)fruit from the good (spiritual) fruit.
This is a favorite verse that a lost person or one that is out of fellowship and is reprimanded will use to divert attention away from those pointing out their sin (rotten fruit).
I am not surprised in the use of that verse on this blog due to the fact that so many of our sermons have been taken out of context to beat us over the head. The acorns don't fall far from the tree...
25+ - please weigh in here if I am wrong. This was from my memory of a sermon Dr Rogers preached.
Hebrews 10:26-31 (English Standard Version)
26For if we go on sinning deliberately after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, 27but a fearful expectation of judgment, and a fury of fire that will consume the adversaries. 28Anyone who has set aside the law of Moses dies without mercy on the evidence of two or three witnesses. 29How much worse punishment, do you think, will be deserved by the one who has spurned the Son of God, and has profaned the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified, and has outraged the Spirit of grace? 30For we know him who said, "Vengeance is mine; I will repay." And again, "The Lord will judge his people." 31It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.
1 Corinthians 5
Sexual Immorality Defiles the Church
1It is actually reported that there is sexual immorality among you, and of a kind that is not tolerated even among pagans, for a man has his father's wife. 2And you are arrogant! Ought you not rather to mourn? Let him who has done this be removed from among you.
3For though absent in body, I am present in spirit; and as if present, I have already pronounced judgment on the one who did such a thing. 4When you are assembled in the name of the Lord Jesus and my spirit is present, with the power of our Lord Jesus, 5you are to deliver this man to Satan for the destruction of the flesh, so that his spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord.[a]
6Your boasting is not good. Do you not know that a little leaven leavens the whole lump? 7Cleanse out the old leaven that you may be a new lump, as you really are unleavened. For Christ, our Passover lamb, has been sacrificed. 8Let us therefore celebrate the festival, not with the old leaven, the leaven of malice and evil, but with the unleavened bread of sincerity and truth.
9I wrote to you in my letter not to associate with sexually immoral people-- 10not at all meaning the sexually immoral of this world, or the greedy and swindlers, or idolaters, since then you would need to go out of the world. 11But now I am writing to you not to associate with anyone who bears the name of brother if he is guilty of sexual immorality or greed, or is an idolater, reviler, drunkard, or swindler--not even to eat with such a one. 12For what have I to do with judging outsiders? Is it not those inside the church whom you are to judge? 13God judges[b] those outside. "Purge the evil person from among you."
Mom4
You have mail.
Let me ask you folks something:
What would you do if you had a painter that was doing a cruddy job, kept not showing up, and was trying to overcharge you?
What if you had a babysitter that forgot to feed the kids, had her boyfriend over, and broke a family heirloom playing ball in the house?
What about a yard guy who mowed over your petunias, left beer cans in the driveway, cut down your favorite tree, and ran over your mailbox?
I would hope you would treat all these people with kindness and forgiveness. But I dare say that you would probably get a new painter,babysitter, and yard guy.
And Oswald Chambers would applaud your common sense.
How much more we should expect from those to whom we entrust the role of spiritual leadership for our families.
Trena who?
Thinking about the idea of "judge not," I thought I'd copy a very short excerpt of an article by Brannon Howse of Christian Worldview Network. (...for the sake of having another perspective on the matter)
I wish I had a dollar for every time I heard someone say, “you know we are not to judge people; even the Bible says ‘judge not lest you be judged’.” Americans had better start getting comfortable with politically in-correct, non-humanistic forms of making intelligent judgments on moral issues because even if we don’t make them, I’m concerned there is Someone very willing to hold our nation accountable for what we allow. And He doesn’t respond well to intimidation, name-calling, flawed logic, or being quoted out of context.
ace,
for someone who was begging to be allowed back on here, you sure have a funny way of making yourself welcome...change of heart?
Ace said:
"She is a hippocrite and a liar."
25+ says:
Please don't come on here feigning repentance and lecturing others here about hate, lies, gossip when you have this in your heart. Remember, what comes out of the keyboard comes from the heart. PS... "hippocrite": is that a compound noun from "hippo" and "crite"? hmmm
jmo
Ace,
Thats good to know. I have been studying the leaders of IDC, Congregation Approved and Saving Bellevue. I am finding out some interesting things, especially about how they handle their finances, pay taxes, and pay their debt. My only reason for doing this is that our leaders need to be held to a higher standard and if these folks are the future of BBC, these are very important facts.
Some might say this is harassment of some kind, but I don't think so. If calling and emailing every church that Brother Steve is preaching at is not harassment, then neither is this.
Open records are great!!!
..." but by their deeds of righteousness from their hearts - fruits if you will - and that we are gifted with the Holy Spirit's discernment to divide the bad (spiritual)fruit from the good (spiritual) fruit."
Matthew 7 must be studied in totality for the whole message. It is very scary. It is clear that He is talking to those professing to be believers. And He says to them, Depart from Me, I never knew you. This is in relation to the fruit. The fruit is NOT what we do. It is the result of the new nature we recieve upon regeneration.
Which means I could be a missionary for 40 years and not be saved. Scary stuff.
Ace,
You're (like) a lilly-livered putz.
I may be Abraham Lincoln, but I won't confirm or deny it.
Scary thought:
Judas heard Jesus' teachings
Overflowing...
God sees what you are doing to those you called "little people." One minute you speak of love and forgiveness and the next you issue threats. Now that's consistent... with someone who wants to control people with scripture but wants no accountability. jmo
25,
How are my actions any different than yours.
"I am finding out some interesting things, especially about how they handle their finances, pay taxes, and pay their debt."
Overflowing what?
I thought NASS was Trini, not Trena.
NASS
4545 said: So, how many of you think that Bellevue should give out a list of all the members and their personal information WITHOUT each members permission?
Doesn't matter what we think. TN law doesn't say our permission is needed to have our names and possibly addresses released. You may not like it - and I'm sure you don't mainly because of the circumstances surrounding the issue - but BBC is required to provide such a list.
I don't really consider name and address to be personal information.
You can rest happy, however, in the fact that they'll get about 12,000 of anything they mail out returned....some of those "ghost members" the church has lost over the years.
Bloggers,
ACE OFTEN posts for one purpose and one purpose only. OFTEN, ACE's sole purpose is to be antagonistic. As long as ya'll waste your precious time and talent feeding ACE, ACE will continue to play that game. If you ignore ACE, then ACE will soon go away. Ya'll need to FOCUS, FOCUS, FOCUS on the problems at BBC and quit playing into their hands by playing their game. I know that it is hard to resist taking the BAIT, but you must RESIST THE TEMPTATION.
If your weatherman gambles on Friday, gets drunk on Saturday, and skips church on Sunday, does that mean you don't take cover if he predicts a tornado?
The messenger may be flawed, but the message still needs to be heard or calamity will fall.
Overflowing said:
"Ace,
Thats good to know. I have been studying the leaders of IDC, Congregation Approved and Saving Bellevue. I am finding out some interesting things, especially about how they handle their finances, pay taxes, and pay their debt. My only reason for doing this is that our leaders need to be held to a higher standard and if these folks are the future of BBC, these are very important facts. Some might say this is harassment of some kind, but I don't think so. If calling and emailing every church that Brother Steve is preaching at is not harassment, then neither is this.
Open records are great!!!"
25+ says:
Thanks overflowing... please keep posting. That one borders on black mail. Your desperation to keep BBC's leaders from making the past right is showing and it should be painfully obvious to anyone reading this that such a post could not come from godly leadership. You are one of the best things going to prove exactly what IDC is about.
BTW... The Lord Jesus taught us to return good for evil. He taught us to bless and not to curse. He taught us to love one another--without Communications Committees... jmo
Charlie Fox often post the same comment because people disagree with him. He doesn’t like it when people disagree with him. He really can only function in an environment without debate. Please avoid upsetting Charlie by having a different opinion.
25,
I'm not a leader of BBC. All I see on this board is hate. One of the main posters actually made the comment that SG was not a man of God. He may not be a lot of things but he is a man of God, just as I am a Christian. Someone else said that the DHS report will be a "good day". How on earth can that be a good day. Have your people not repeatedly harassed SG?
ed_t,
If the church wants to get permission that is not required by law, that would be their choice. But no one but the church should have to pay for it. I guess they have some money left??
What happened to the repentent ace from last night?
IDC members do not aspire to be church leaders but do want leaders that walk the talk.
It goes without saying that this will make these leaders (the one's with things to hide) unbelievably LIVID.
The increase in demeaning dailog, threats, and shots at peoples kids is evidence of this.
It serves to strengthen resolve.
Overflowing... wrote:
"25,
How are my actions any different than yours."
25+ says:
I appealed to you the other night in love. I called on you to recognize the blatant pride of your post calling others "little people." I asked you if you wanted to know the solution. You have not responded to my post that offers a solution. It seems that you would rather intimidate and threaten rather that come together as brothers and sisters in Christ and solve this no matter what the cost--in an open, loving dialog--pastor with people (minus buffers like Comm. Committees).
I wrote earlier that a real solution for the church may still be possible if leadership were willing to follow this plan:
"Transparency, real two-way, loving communication face to face with those who are upset. No communications committees, everyone allowed there, make peace with Mark Sharpe, Craig Parker, J. Haywood, etc. Make things right--whatever it takes. Let the light shine on what happened with the "dream" and let the former CFO put everything on the table and make things right. Remove suspicion. Provide things honestly in the sight of all men. Let the buck stop with the pastor... read the list I have posted. It was not posted for the purpose hurting, but like surgery--to cut to heal. Transparency, honesty, a new beginning to rebuild integrity... all jmo-- but all in accord with His Word."
There are no threats there. Just an invitation to heal... individuals and the fellowship as a whole. It's not too late.
This may not stop the legal fallout from "failure to report"--but it would be doing the right thing.
sincerely,
25+
Mom4
You have mail
NASS
You too.
Verses that scare me:
Rev 21
Also he said, "Write this down, for these words are trustworthy and true." 6And he said to me, "It is done! I am the Alpha and the Omega, the beginning and the end. To the thirsty I will give from the spring of the water of life without payment. 7The one who conquers will have this heritage, and I will be his God and he will be my son. 8But as for the cowardly, the faithless, the detestable, as for murderers, the sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars, their portion will be in the lake that burns with fire and sulfur, which is the second death."
More good news tonight, guys.
A friend of mine who was solidly in SG's camp last september, has done a 180!!!
After sunday night, she is LIVID.
This is not the same person I talked about last night.
This is another person.
The rats are fleeing the ship.
Custos,
Thanks for taking the time to recreate that time line.
This statement echoes my thoughts:
"If there is mismanagement, wouldn’t it make sense to deny access to records that could prove even greater impropriety?"
It will be interesting if they turn over membership roles. It seems you could validate current membership and determine whether or not the church is actually growing.. How many left vs. how many joined. So much clarity could be gleaned with this info.
Additionally, what better way to educate and communicate concerns then to mail information to each home and schedule a church meeting?
Ez, I was just reading that earlier tonight! Notice that Jesus said he was blind not from sin but so the Glory of God is revealed. Strange how we are reading the same thing at the same time....
25
If you will plead for your people to quit calling SG speaking engagments, questioning his salvation, talking about the way his daughter dresses, saying he is self medicating causing his actions. Nothing on here is Christlike.
Proverbs 10:8 ¶ The wise in heart will receive commandments: but a prating fool shall fall.
Proverbs 10:10 ¶ He that winketh with the eye causeth sorrow: but a prating fool shall fall.
Proverbs 10:18 ¶ He that hideth hatred with lying lips, and he that uttereth a slander, is a fool.
19 ¶ In the multitude of words there wanteth not sin: but he that refraineth his lips is wise.
20 ¶ The tongue of the just is as choice silver: the heart of the wicked is little worth.
21 The lips of the righteous feed many: but fools die for want of wisdom.
Proverbs 12:15 ¶ The way of a fool is right in his own eyes: but he that hearkeneth unto counsel is wise.
Proverbs 14:16 ¶ A wise man feareth, and departeth from evil: but the fool rageth, and is confident.
17 ¶ He that is soon angry dealeth foolishly: and a man of wicked devices is hated.
Proverbs 18:6 ¶ A fool’s lips enter into contention, and his mouth calleth for strokes.
7 A fool’s mouth is his destruction, and his lips are the snare of his soul.
8 ¶ The words of a talebearer are as wounds, and they go down into the innermost parts of the belly.
SOTL
I'm glad eyes are opening.
It takes longer for some than others.
We need to keep talking to our acquaintances, many who STILL don't know the full story.
I would also challenge those with first hand knowledge to realize that at some point you may have to speak out if what you know can't be told by others and be credible.
Many are standing in the gap for you, but please pray about what YOU should do.
Ace,
I can't wait for the IDC meeting, I'm bringing my video camera.
by the way, you have mail.
So, how many of you think that Bellevue should give out a list of all the members and their personal information WITHOUT each members permission?
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