Friday, January 19, 2007

About that "Check"...

Before you continue, I'd like to ask that you scroll down to January 7th's "Let's Continue... " topic and read the information in the top two sections (in bold red and orange, respectively). Then scroll back up to January 16th's "New Poll" topic, read and think about the comments referenced in the first sentence, and then continue. There was a lot of unnecessary trash that had to be taken out last night, and your cooperation in not adding to the volume would be greatly appreciated!

Many people have mentioned a "check" in their spirits about Dr. Steve Gaines and/or the things they perceived happening at Bellevue during the last year and a half. Whether you call it a "check" or a "catch" or a gut feeling or just a hunch, I've heard numerous people say they thought they were alone in their feelings and perhaps just imagining things. I've heard wives and husbands say they each felt "something" but didn't say anything to each other until months later. I felt it myself walking through the halls. There was "something" wrong, but I just couldn't put my finger on it. I felt like if I even scratched the surface of all those smiling faces that I'd learn all was not right at Bellevue. Finally in August I began to learn the truth and discovered it wasn't "just me."

Here are several people's accounts of their own "checks." If you experienced this phenomenon yourself, please consider sharing when your "Aha!" moment came and what prompted it.

And a poll:

Have you felt a "check" in your spirit about Pastor Steve Gaines and/or the direction our church has taken any time since the middle of 2005?
Yes, I felt it before Steve Gaines came to Bellevue.
Yes, I felt it soon after Steve Gaines came to Bellevue.
Yes, but I haven't felt it until recently.
No, I've never felt any different than before.
Free polls from Pollhost.com

655 comments:

1 – 200 of 655   Newer›   Newest»
Anonymous said...

Dear Administrator, please forgive the duplicate post from the last thread. Good job, dude...er, dudette!

Karen,

I've seen churches with especially large and ornate stoops with such, and the reference to pillars threw me, but now I know these are inside, like in Samson and Delilah.

Ja, I'll see you there. I'll be in black, wearing a P-coat and carrying my notebook.

Anonymous said...

Your attention, please!!!!!

I STRONGLY encourage those that have OPPOSING VIEWS to post on this forum. True debate is HEALTHY. I STRONGLY urge BOTH SIDES to engage in a HEALTHY DEBATE on the SERIOUS ISSUES that face BBC.
However, I just as STRONGLY urge those, such as ACE and DEACON 4545, who frequently post for the sole purpose of being antagonistic and disruptive, not to attempt to detract with their antagonistic posts. Should they do so, which is their right, I STRONGLY urge posters on BOTH sides not to respond to those types of antagonistic posts that serve NO CONSTRUCTIVE PURPOSE, but ONLY attempt to detract from the SERIOUS ISSUES that face BBC.

Bereans said...

Progressive "checks":
1. Sept 4, 2005 Sunday evening service (Charles Billingsley did a concert.) SG showed up, explained how and why to clap after each baptism.
2. Sept 2005: An usher told us that the new pastor had instructed them to keep the doors to the sanctuary open during the baptisms (which took place prior to the official start of the service).
This was not a big deal, but it struck me as odd that a pastor would get involved in that detail, especially not considering all the noise in the hallways prior to the start of the service.
3. Sept 11, 2005: The bulletin and the actual order of service had been changed to match Gardendale's (we had visited GFBC earlier that year while SG was still the pastor.)
4. Fall, 2005: changes to the music, again, just like Gardendale
5. Nov, 2005: Announcement of Whitmire's "retirement". Jim had to toot his own horn, more excitement about Jamie coming than Whitmire going.
6. Dec, 2005: We started comparing notes with others, heard stories about how SG had been rude to people, was very much "my way or the highway."
7. Early 2006: the number of staff departures started to become more noticable. David Smith's departure seemed especially suspicious.
8. The dream, the fence, the salary, the de facto elder rule, the credit cards, etc.
9. The Sept 24 info meeting was the last straw (though the straws have continued to be piled on even since then - FUMC, PW.)

If it had just been the music and other changes to the worship service, I would have toughed it out, but when it got to the issues about integrity, enough was enough.

Pardon the pun, but my wife and I had separate checks.

Anonymous said...

From the BBC website:
Please refrain from photography,audio,and video recording
during Worship Services without permission.

This statement does NOT say you are PROHIBITED from photography,audio,and video recording. The definitive word is REFRAIN.
Merriam-Webster definition of REFRAIN: to keep oneself from doing, feeling, or indulging in something and especially from following a passing impulse.

Anonymous said...

When did David Smith leave the organization, and under what circumstance, if you don't mind me asking?

Anonymous said...

Charlie,

Your link isn't working - I think it's just because it has one too many "http://"'s in it.

Funny video though!

Anonymous said...

"Pardon the pun, but my wife and I had separate checks."

Meaning the check is not, solely, in the male.

Harharharhar!

Karen said...

Trollcates,

I will look for you tomorrow!

Looking forward to it!

Karen

Karen said...

bearens,

You experience in the "check department" sounds really close to mine. I talked to my mother about it first who had had the same experience in her quiet time. People in the choir were discussing Jaime among themselves - when Jaime told the choir that he had to go to Gardendale to learn how to worship, my mom about fell out! My husband (we weren't married yet so it was sometime before Sept. 2006) had said something to me one day after church that Steve Gaines reminded him of Bill Clinton - he and I hadn't discussed BBC too much yet. So he was getting a "check" too even though he didn't know about stuff that I knew about at that time. David Smith's departure really did put up a red flag for me-the wording in the bulletin just sounded really defensive and vague to me.

Karen

BTW, for ace - I got this in an email this morning:

"To answer the question about when the statement "under the Blood" was made by the pastor, it was during the 9:30 morning service the day the pastor announced about PW . I was there and I heard it."

Anonymous said...

"To answer the question about when the statement "under the Blood" was made by the pastor, it was during the 9:30 morning service the day the pastor announced about PW . I was there and I heard it."

I don't remember hearing that. But wasn't it used on this forum prior to him addressing the congregation?

Anonymous said...

As I sit here today, doing filing and paperwork at my desk, I'm listening to Ken Varner's organ cd and wondering why, why, why those of us who enjoy that type of music can never hear our mighty organ played the way it was meant to be played anymore. Talk about something that I miss tremendously! Once in a while would suit my fancy!

The glory days have passed! How I miss my dear old BBC!!! How grateful I am to have been a part of them!

Anonymous said...

Maybe y'all can get the mighty organ in the divorce.

I love my church said...

"Under the blood" has been rumored because Steve said it in June.

This is a FACT!

Anonymous said...

Standing, I apologize, I'm a lover of good music too.

Anonymous said...

Troll...no apology needed. I was just thinking how sad it is that things have come to this! I took your "divorce" comment for exactly what it is b/c it does seem as though that's what's happening!

Anonymous said...

If this link doesn't work, I quit. This video is TOO FUNNY!!!

Baptism

Anonymous said...

The following is a post I wrote almost a year ago now. I left off the last as I wrote it then because things took a drastic turn and the pleasant ending I originally wrote about gave way to utter chaos and tragedy. It gives only a small amount of detail of what my husband and I, and others, went through during that time in our lives in our former church. So much happened before I wrote this and so much more happened after I wrote this. It would literally fill up too many pages here and in actually I have not up unto this point even written it all down. That is something I must get done. I am sharing this with you because the similarities of what we have gone through and the treatment we have received are incredibly like the ones ongoing with those at Bellevue now. Our story was chronicled in the Wall Street Journal in September and if you have read the story, you know a little bit more than I have posted here. However, the WSJ only skimmed the surface…the story in its entirety has not yet been told. This is something I don’t normally write about on the internet, but as I read through this blog…and especially in reading about the moderator’s “check in spirit”, I felt a need to share at least this portion with you (the post below). My husband’s story is amazingly like that of Mark Sharpe’s story.
As I read through the blog, I am sometimes amazed at the loss in tone of seriousness. This is about the Lord’s work…please do remember this and try to find a common ground among you so that you can stand for Jesus in the coming days of persecution you may be subject to. This situation does not need to be made light of, even if you have opposing views.
________________________________________________________________________________
March 27, 2006
For my husband and I to be having any problems whatsoever in our church was absurd, to put it mildly. Nevertheless, it was there…something was amiss, but we just could not identify exactly what was wrong, but we knew it centered on our pastor. My husband is a mild mannered, Godly man, has always gotten along well with people and is the most humble person I have ever known…he is a deacon in our church and has been a member there for fifty-nine years, and I for forty-four. When we first met this man, I felt a keen sense of ‘uneasiness’. In retrospect, it is easier to identify now.

At first, he seemed okay, though I didn’t vote for him. Most of the congregation seemed to like him. It was not long though that I started picking up on odd things. He soon started a series of sermons on the spiritual gifts. One night after one of these sermons, my husband and I went to speak to him as we normally did, and I told him that I had enjoyed the sermon…that, in fact, he had preached on my spiritual gift that night, discernment. He looked at me…no, he looked through me and said that he knew that was my gift and that he knew I could see straight through him. I stood there, not stunned at all…but knowing that the two of us had connected on a plane that was frightening. Agreeing with him, I turned and walked away. I knew then there were problems ahead... After that, things began to happen to my husband and me.

We were singled out and mistreated by this man. This was very hard for us to comprehend and had no clue as to how to deal with it. He caused trouble for us off and on for the next two years. His anger, evident from the pulpit was enough cause for us to leave. His counsel was, of course, not something we would have sought out during a time of need should we have needed it. Actually the need did arise notably during deaths in our family when we should have been comforted, but we were again treated very badly.

He tried to get rid of us in numerous ways. He was trying to turn people against us and in some instances was succeeding in this attempt. These were some of the most traumatic times of our lives. He attacked us personally from the pulpit…he started rumors about us. Simply put...we were targets. All this time, there were things going on in our church independent of the personal attacks on us. Things in our church were changing…slowly at first. Things like…we were no longer voting in the new members; they started a church oriented class led by the pastor; we didn’t know exactly when this happened. There was no invitational hymn played at the close of the service anymore. He went to two Sunday morning services, the first being different to the second. People from smaller area churches started coming and joining our church, which was hurting the small churches…they are dying out. The music was changing…there were more praise and worship teams and new choruses being organized and more emphasis put in that area, especially in the first service. We sang less and less from hymnals and more from a projection screen…Powerpoint. More recently, the music has gone to more of a ‘hard rock’ Christian style being played through the sound system on DVD…and loud. Too loud. In the midst of all this, the pastor continually did things to us that would have caused most people to leave, but we stayed. Other members were leaving and we have since learned they were treated in much the same manner we were. But, through only the Grace of God, and sheer determination, we remained steadfast…and held on. In the meantime, he ‘buddied up’ with some…it was evident that the ‘buddy system’ was in place. The buddies were compromised mostly of “new” members. I kept thinking to myself and discussing with my husband that he was ‘brainwashing’ people. I would sit in church and look at everybody and could see people developing a tremendous fondness for this man…I remember I kept thinking of Jim Jones and David Koresh. And then, he would throw darts at us. The status quo were overlooked and mistreated. Slowly, the buddy system was formed and it was these people who were being put on the committees. We have in place today the same people, over and over, on committees. It was easy to see that a coalition had been formed…and the entire control of the church was by the hands of a select few people, or core, and the pastor. It reached the point that committees were selected from existing committees. I saw ‘flattery’ being used on members by the pastor to get them to fall prey to his manipulation. Most of the church staff itself had fallen into this seductive snare of the enemy. Right in the middle of this, this pastor resigned and left our church. However, his long time confidant, friend, and seminary classmate, who we had allowed to be brought into our church, stayed and continued the same mission and agenda. This man continued to make personal attacks from the pulpit as recently as yesterday. He told the people, seventy and over, from the pulpit yesterday that the music was about to change…that the young people deserved to listen to the loud, contemporary music they liked and that it might be in their best interest to bring ear muffs with them to the services. He has continued the vision.

In the midst of all this, through much prayer, I started to research…trying desperately to find out what was wrong. I turned to the Internet. Month after month, after entering various things in the search engines, I kept coming up empty. I really had nothing concrete to go on. Finally, the pastor formed a committee to look into long range plans. I put this into the search engine and came up with an article that gave me some insight into the problem, but still not enough. Then, some of the ‘key leaders’ called a special business meeting to introduce a new way of doing business…introducing church team ministry, a new concept. ‘Change-a new way of doing things’ became the norm in our church. The old way of handling the church just had to go they said. So, I entered ‘church ministry teams’ into the search engines…and I hit pay dirt. I continued on with this search and found the problem…THE PURPOSE-DRIVEN-CHURCH-MOVEMENT. There was no doubt about it…that was it. I continued in my search…totally at a loss as to what to do about this. Paul Proctor directed me to ‘How to transition an established church’ by Chuck McAlister from Rick Warren’s Ministry Toolbox and this proved to be an invaluable resource in that it pinpointed the scheme of things going on in our church. Mr. Proctor’s articles were helpful as well. By this time, there were other members involved with my husband and me. Though they were few, these newly formed allies were strong in the faith, convicted and steadfast. I continued looking and started running across various articles…and found James Sundquist’ website: http://www.abrahamic-faith.com/False-Teachers.html which led me to Southwest Radio Church: http://www.swrc.com and listened to the interviews. I also ordered and read Who’s Driving the Purpose Driven Church, along with Redefining Christianity and others. Our minds started clearing because we started realizing what and where the problem was.
_________________________________
Continued from above…I pray for all of you. The atrocities resulting from the Purpose Driven Life/Church Movements, from any church growth movement are horrible and nobody should have to be going through any of this. There is much more to my story but I am stopping here…this is about my ‘check’. It is about a different church, but it is the same story. This story is going on all over the United States…and world. God help us!

Anonymous said...

imaresistor...

I'm so sorry for the pain caused you.

Our family has discussed recently that if we lose the battle to reclaim our churches from the Purpose Driven/Seeker Friendly Movements, there is no telling where our grandchildren will be worshipping!

The world and its ideas have definitely infiltrated our churches and in such slow, unobvious ways, we were almost boiled like the frog in the pot! Thank God He has awakened some of us to these issues!

Anonymous said...

On-topic question: To those of you who have had this "check" in your spirit, is there anything in God's Word to back this up as being a valid "from-God" phenomenon? Aside from the potentially widely interpreted verses on discernment, which can be applied and understood in several different contexts, that is.

Rationale: Pentecostals believe in a "second baptism" experience, during which they receive the Holy Spirit. Most of us do not believe there is a Biblical basis for this experience and discount it on the basis of not being supported Scripturally.

Disclaimer: I am not negating anyone's claim on what they have experienced, nor am I trying to label anyone as following or not following the Bible. I am sincerely curious as to whether the "check in your spirit" is valid from the standpoint of God's Word.

Thanks in advance for your assistance in understanding this.

allofgrace said...
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Anonymous said...

Thanks, AOG. I have had the same experience in other situations and I understand your explanation. However, if the "check" in the spirit is to be such a vital part of the discernment process, then shouldn't there be even one or two obscure Scriptural references to validate it? That's more what I'm seeking -- less subjective, more objective from the standpoint of Scripture. Does that make sense?

Anonymous said...

Also, if there is no clear Scriptural directive, would not the "check" be something that could be (and would be) counterfeited by Satan for his purposes?

Many have wondered, on this blog and elsewhere, how you can have one group of godly people who see things so "clearly" one way, and another group of godly people who sees those same things so "clearly" another way. If we can point to something solid from a Scriptural standpoint to give us guidance, I would think it might help in the potential healing of our broken fellowship. Again, not trying to point fingers, just trying to assist in the sorting out of how we got here and what we do next.

Anonymous said...

But the process of the "check" itself is not specifically addressed in Scripture that you know of, is it?

Anonymous said...

I apologize for seeming like I'm putting you on the spot, AOG. I'm actually sitting here with my Bible as we're considering this and looking up references myself.

Anonymous said...

"From the BBC website:
Please refrain from photography,audio,and video recording during Worship Services without permission.

This statement does NOT say you are PROHIBITED from photography,audio,and video recording. The definitive word is REFRAIN.

Merriam-Webster definition of REFRAIN: to keep oneself from doing, feeling, or indulging in something and especially from following a passing impulse."

I can't tell if you're being sarcastic or not, but if you're being serious, that's just silly. If you see a sign that says Please Do Not Smoke Inside the Building (not that you smoke, but just an example), what do you think it means? Are you going to smoke because it was phrased as a request and not as a command?

Reminds me of a sign at a small church I pass by on the way to Birmingham sometimes, which says "NO BIG TRUCKS ALLOWED." It always makes me chuckle a little bit; it's like they're turning away truck drivers from worshipping with them.

Anonymous said...

The "check" poll is very revealing. If you look at the results the majority of anti-Steve Gains people vote that they had a problem immediately after his arrival. Not when he jumped the fence or you found out about his parting Gardendale words...not even the salary issue. The check was right after he arrived. Amazing....

allofgrace said...
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Anonymous said...

It doesn't matter what you call it. Check, disdain, bitterness, hatred....it's all the same.

Anonymous said...

Speaking of hatred! What happened to Rod AlmondMartini and Fedup? Were they run off?

allofgrace said...
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Anonymous said...

Proverbs2:3-22

3  Yea, if thou criest after knowledge, and liftest up thy voice for understanding;
4 If thou seekest her as silver, and searchest for her as for hid treasures;
5  Then shalt thou understand the fear of the Lord, and find the knowledge of God.
6 For the Lord giveth wisdom: out of his mouth cometh knowledge and understanding.
7 He layeth up sound wisdom for the righteous: he is a buckler to them that walk uprightly.
8 He keepeth the paths of judgment, and preserveth the way of his saints.
9  Then shalt thou understand righteousness, and judgment, and equity; yea, every good path.
10  When wisdom entereth into thine heart, and knowledge is pleasant unto thy soul;
11 Discretion shall preserve thee, understanding shall keep thee:
12  To deliver thee from the way of the evil man, from the man that speaketh froward things;
13  Who leave the paths of uprightness, to walk in the ways of darkness;
14  Who rejoice to do evil, and delight in the frowardness of the wicked;
15  Whose ways are crooked, and they froward in their paths:
16  To deliver thee from the strange woman, even from the stranger which flattereth with her words;
17  Which forsaketh the guide of her youth, and forgetteth the covenant of her God.
18 For her house inclineth unto death, and her paths unto the dead.
19 None that go unto her return again, neither take they hold of the paths of life.
20  That thou mayest walk in the way of good men, and keep the paths of the righteous.
21 For the upright shall dwell in the land, and the perfect shall remain in it.
22 But the wicked shall be cut off from the earth, and the transgressors shall be rooted out of it.

Anonymous said...

AOG -- until OFG and telos showed up, I thought everyone else was probably either napping this afternoon or at Kroger buying bread and milk ...

allofgrace said...
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Anonymous said...

My sheep recognize my voice; I know them, and they follow me.

Anonymous said...

mjm & aog,

Call me a troll, but really I'm someone who disagrees. Surely we can debate.

allofgrace said...
This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
Anonymous said...

AOG

Must be something to the Holy Spirit?

allofgrace said...
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Anonymous said...

gug,

I am quite serious.
"Please Do Not Smoke Inside the Building" is a POLITE legal order.

DO NOT SMOKE is the definitive phrase, that makes it an order.

REFRAIN is NOT a legal order, but a POLITE request.

Anonymous said...

AllofGrace, you should mind; this is exactly what I was saying earlier regarding the parcing of words to muddle the issue.

As far as I'm concerned, they're asked you to give them scriptural justification for your God-given common sense.

I got my Bible here, and I cannot find a scriptural basis for endangering children "under the blood."

Anonymous said...

AOG,

allofgrace said...

telos,
Well there's only one Bible, so naturally we're both going to come from the same resource eh?

Good question - let me repent and seek his word and I will get back to you : )

Anonymous said...

Give me a break!!!

If Adrian were preaching a sermon series on Abortion and one of the local channels were trying to secretly film the service, you would be outraged. So don't question why we don't Haywood filming the service. He has aligned himself with the Godless Memphis media. Do you really think they are friends of the Christian. They are the Devils workers and your calling them asking them to do stories on our situation. They only want to see the church fail...they love this.

allofgrace said...
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Anonymous said...

charlie fox,

Well even if you weren't being sarcastic, you're still quite funny.

allofgrace said...
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Anonymous said...

AOG,

Repent - It was a joke, although I do struggle with sin.

My point was that when I do sin - My heart is hardened. When I sin -His voice is obscured until I repent.

Anonymous said...

Your attention, please.

I STRONGLY encourage those that have OPPOSING VIEWS to post on this forum. True debate is HEALTHY. I STRONGLY urge BOTH SIDES to engage in a HEALTHY DEBATE on the SERIOUS ISSUES that face BBC.
However, I just as STRONGLY urge those, such as ACE,OVERFLOWINGGRACE and DEACON 4545, who frequently post for the sole purpose of being antagonistic and disruptive, not to attempt to detract with their antagonistic posts. Should they do so, which is their right, I STRONGLY urge posters on BOTH sides not to respond to those types of antagonistic posts that serve NO CONSTRUCTIVE PURPOSE, but ONLY attempt to detract from the SERIOUS ISSUES that face BBC.

Anonymous said...

mjm,

I too can only tell you what I have observed in my life over my Christian walk for the last 34 years.

John 16:13 says, "But when he, the Spirit of truth, comes, he will guide you into all truth."

When I accepted Christ as my Lord and Savior, the Holy Spirit came to reside in me. He is the one who will guide me into all truth.

Psalm 25:4-5 says,

"Show me your ways, O Lord, teach me your paths; guide me in your truth and teach me, for you are God my Savior, and my hope is in you all day long."

I have relied upon the Holy Spirit residing in me to lead me in truth for many years now. Often, I will have a "check" in my spirit about a certain situation and, as allofgrace said, as I begin to check things agains Scripture, I will begin to see why I had the "check" to begin with.

I had a "check" soon after Dr. Gaines arrived at Bellevue. I did not speak of this to anyone for a long, long time, but my husband and I finally began to speak of specific things that seemed wrong to us.

I will try to enumerate a few:

1. Dr. Gaines seemed to have a way of demanding we do certain things instead of leading us in love. The Bible says in 1 Peter 5:3, "...not lording over those entrusted to you, but being examples to the flock"

2. Tithing undesignatedly--early on Dr. Gaines began to tell us to tithe udesignatedly. There is no Scripture to back this up and we had always enjoyed giving as an act of worship. We rarely gave undesignatedly, but there have been a few times that we felt led to give to a certain ministry funded by BBC.

3. Standing on the Shoulders (my name sake) - I had always been taught to honor and revere those who were older than I and who had sacrificed for me to be able to enjoy what I have had at BBC for so many years. Instead of showing us that by example, things were changing fast and furiously to make things more "accomodating" for visitors and younger people. Our seniors were feeling like strangers and no one seemed to care--after all, they wouldn't be around much longer anyway.

Romans 12:10, "Be devoted to one another in brotherly love. Honor one another above yoursleves."

3. Another problem with seniors-- Harry Smith was chairman of the deacons the fall of 2005 when Bro. Steve came. Not long after Bro. Steve came, there was a desire to make inactive all deacons over the age of 65 so that there would be more "young" deacons. This plan ended up being tabled; however, how does that fit with Proverbs 16:31, "Gray hair is a crown of splendor; it is attained by a righteous life."

We are to honor those older than us and learn from them.

4. If you don't like it leave--this was stated from the pulpit and to me from other leaders. What about

Heb. 13;1, "Keep on loving each other as brothers."

1 Thes. 4:9, "..for you yourselves have been taught by God to love eatch other."

And, my personal favorite--John 13:34, "A new command I give you: Love one another. As I have loved you, so you must love onte another."

These were some of the initial "checks" that of course, as time went by became larger due to the disrespect shown Dr. Whitmire, fence jumping/trespassing, the PW debacle, the refusal to publicly report that Dr. Rogers had no knowlege of the PW incident even after Mrs. Rogers had asked for them to say so and other things that I won't delve into now.

respectfully,
standing

allofgrace said...
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Anonymous said...

Charlie Fox,

You can't handle the truth

Anonymous said...

allofgrace,
"gug,
Interesting thread on divorce & remarriage on your blog."

I'm glad you found it interesting, I just encountered John Piper's view on divorce a few days ago, and it made a lot of sense to me.

Anonymous said...

Some friends of mine in the choir said that Jamie Parker has worked up some great songs for tomorrow. They said he was really excited and wouldnt be so reserved like he normally is.

Anonymous said...

Graceupongrace,

Are you divorced?

ezekiel said...

Overflowing,

I am not sure about the check stuff. But I can say that if we are truly filled with the Spirit, we won't like secrecy, we won't like any brother exalting himself and we won't like a leader leading us to Idol worship. The Bible is full of scripture telling us this happend slowly and quietly... That is how the Great deceiver works is it not?

So when we have secrecy, when we have lying like "I don't know" or "what dream" or "itty bitty fence" that can't be of God and it can't happen if one is truly representing Christ. Sure, sin happens...but when confronted with this the Christian response would be repent (stop doing it). Instead we see a shepherd attacking his sheep..scattering them. Sheep don't scatter because they are well fed and well watered. They scatter at perceived threat or they wander off in search of greener pastures..Either way the Bible clearly mandates that leaders are responsible for returning them to the fold. Shepherds don't beat the sheep either. And they protect them from predators.

Since you sit with a bible, you may want to review Jer 23, EZ 34 and Mat 23. Let me know if you can't see any similarity.

Anonymous said...

overflowinggrace,
The name you choose and the words you speak seem to not jive with each other.
When people realize what they're seeing and hearing from their pastor is wrong, they get an uneasy feeling about it. (check)
It's unsual at Bellevue because we've had in Dr. Adrian Rogers a man of integrity and wisdom for so many years. Shortly after Steve Gaines arrived, his own words and actions seemed to start bothering a lot of people including me.
People can call it a "check" or whatever they wish. For me, it's simply discerning right from wrong. There are certain qualities a pastor is supposed to have and not have.
I saw early on that we had a big problem. As the months have passed, the obvious is becoming clearer to many others.
If you don't see anything wrong with Steve Gaines, that's fine. But you can't deny the convicting nature of the Holy Spirit in the lives of others.
To beat people over the head for listening to what they describe as having a discerning spirit about Steve Gaines is wrong.
Personally, I don't understand how people who know the Word can hear and see his actions and not be concerned. It's more puzzling to me now than 6 months ago.
If you don't see it, you don't see it but don't let hate creep into your heart for those that do.
I hope you can understand this.

allofgrace said...
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Anonymous said...

To everyone who loved, admired, respected and grew under the teaching and preaching of our former beloved pastor, Dr. Adrian Rogers,

Do you believe he was a man of God?

Do you believe he was inspired of God?

Do you believe he was imparted with wisdom from God?

Do you want to know what he personally envisioned from God for this church to become?

Do you want to know what he knew we (Bellevue Baptist Church) would go through to get there as we press forward?

If you believe, if you want to know his thoughts, and if you want to hear a word from God, from a man of God, then I challenge you to listen to these sermons he preached in January & February 2005. Each message is inspired and certainly the Steadfast Church is prophetic.

I pray you will be enlightened and encouraged as our new man of God continues with the vision to be a praying people who worships the LORD Jesus!


The messages are listed below with the link to the sermon archive.
http://www.bellevue.org/templates/cusbellevue1103/details.asp?id=1360&PID=5182


01/02/05 - A Unified Church (Ephesians 4)

01/09/05 - A Steadfast Church (Nehemiah 4)

01/16/05 - A Spirit-Filled Church (John 14:12)

01/23/05 - A Praying Church (Matthew 7:7-8)

01/30/05 - A Worshiping Church (John 4:23-24)

02/06/05 - A Conquering Church (Ephesians 1; Genesis 1)

02/20/05 - A Bible-Believing Church (Matthew 5:17-18)

02/27/05 - Our Great Savior (Matthew 12:42-45)

Diana Hart said...

There were many things I noticed very early on but the thing that has bothered me the most (and that is not to diminish any of the other things that have been stated here) is the twisting of the Scripture to promote an agenda. Twisting Scripture is blasphemy. If you want to argue with me about this, I would refer you back to your Bible. It has all the answers you need.

Respectfully,

Diana

Anonymous said...

overflowinggrace,
"Graceupongrace,

Are you divorced?"

Nope, I'm not married yet actually.

Anonymous said...

If the Holy Spirit lives within us, is it so difficult to understand His directives? A good analogy would be: When as a young child, I would start to do something I knew my parents would disapprove of, I would know immediately this was against my raising. And also, as a young child, if somebody else started to do do something I knew my parents would disapprove of, I would know immediaately this was against my raising. Same goes of my Heavenly Father...is it so hard to know or "feel" when something is or is not right by His standards? Is His teaching of me from His Word not greater than what I learned from my parents as a child? I will ALWAYS be a child of God and I will ALWAYS continue to grow in truth under His directives. So, should a "check in spirit" be so difficult to understand? I should just think that our insticts are parallel to the check in our spirit if the Hold Spirit dwells in us? Being grounded in His Word is the clincher here.

Here are just a few scriptures that might be beneficial on this subject:

Every believer can be led by the Spirit of God. Paul said, "They that are led by the Spirit of God are the sons of God. " (Romans 8:14)

Jesus said, "My sheep know my voice and another they will not follow." (John 10:27) If we are the sheep of His pasture, we will certainly be able to distinguish between the voice of Satan and the voice of Jesus our Shepherd.

"Trust in the Lord with all your heart and lean not to your own understanding. In all your ways acknowledge Him and He shall direct your path." (Proverbs 3:5-6) Trusting in the wisdom of the world will nullify God's guidance. He wants to guide us, but if we are putting our confidence in our own understanding, in principles of this world, in human advice, we will often miss God's plan for us. If we will only acknowledge Him and trust His word to us, HE WILL DIRECT OUR PATH!!

"Be not unwise but understanding what the will of the Lord is. " (Ephesians 5:17)

"A voice behind you saying, 'this is the way, walk in it "' (Isaiah. 30:21)

"The sheep listen to His voice. His sheep follow Him because they know His voice. They do not recognize a stranger's voice." (John 10:3-5)

“Commit thy works unto the LORD, and thy thoughts shall be established.” (Proverbs 16:3)

Ima

Diana Hart said...

Would someone please remind me when Jamie has ever been reserved since he's been there? Just curious.:)

Karen said...

I know I'm gonna get slammed for this, but here goes: If there is a sign on a fence that says "No Tresspassing", doesn't that include the pastor of Bellevue Baptist Church? I guess I'll heed the "Refrain from photography..." request as closely as the pastor did that "No Tresspassing" sign.

If anyone asks about my recording or filming, I'll just say "it's just an itty bitty camera" or "it's just an itty bitty bit of tape"

Karen

For the record: I was cleaning my clothes closet out in preparation for my move to MY NEW HOUSE! (not that I'm excited or anything!)

Diana Hart said...

imaresistor,

I thought I knew you. It seems we lost touch over Christmas. Email me sometime!

Diana

Anonymous said...

A couple of points...

There is no more secrecy now than when Dr. Rogers was here. No one knew his salary.

How is it that the Holy Spirit is only speaking to a couple 100 people in a group of 8500. Some of the leaders of that 200 were against Steve Gaines before he was ever called to be our Pastor. Thats a fact because I heard with my own ears.

Anonymous said...

Trying to define a "check" in the spirit is like trying to define faith. But, when Jesus said that He would send us the Spirit, He said, "He will guide you into all the truth" and "will take of Mine and will disclose it to you." John 16:13-14.

Also, Romans 8:16 says, "the spirit testifies with our spirit" not only that we are children of God but as I understand Him--anything that He wants us to know--the truth.

Anonymous said...

AOG,

Has anyone commented on Micah 3

Karen said...

overflowinggrace said...
Some friends of mine in the choir said that Jamie Parker has worked up some great songs for tomorrow. They said he was really excited and wouldnt be so reserved like he normally is.


Does this mean he's finally breaking out the snakes and poison? I've been wondering when they'd show up.

karen

Anonymous said...

Diana,

Jamie is always so shy and sad looking.

Diana Hart said...

Karen,

I was glad to hear you got good news from the dr. And glad to see you back on here. We missed you!!

AOG,

You have mail, as usual. Also I agree with your posts on the "checks." I can't say it better than that!

Di

Anonymous said...

imaresistor,

You have YAHOO email waiting for you.

Diana Hart said...

overflowinggrace,

Are you in the services? I have been MIA for months however I watch on tv and I haven't seen one sad moment yet. Now I did hear he shed some tears over the PW incident and I was glad to hear it but he is far from shy. I was in the choir. He was astompin' his feet and running around all over the place the first few weeks of practices not to mention what was going on during the services. I think you have the blinders on or something.

Karen,

You are too much girl! I laughed and laughed.

Di

allofgrace said...
This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
Anonymous said...

overflowingwithgrace,
How do you account for the 3,000 to 3,500 that are missing each Sunday? You must be related to the Communications Committee members since you live in fantasyland.
This is a major reason why you are on this blog. If it was the number you mentioned, I dare say you would have better things to do than to be here wasting your time.
I can see now why you are clueless to what Steve Gaines is doing and saying vs. where it lines up with scripture.

allofgrace said...
This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
Anonymous said...

AOG,

Pretty powerful words....

Diana Hart said...

AOG,

I don't think so. I have a very bad memory so don't hold me to that. heh heh heh

Karen said...

diana,

Thought that was pretty witty if I do say so myself. :) Had to call mom and tell her that one!

Thanks for the good wishes.

karen

allofgrace said...
This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
Anonymous said...

Your attention, please.

I STRONGLY encourage those that have OPPOSING VIEWS to post on this forum. True debate is HEALTHY. I STRONGLY urge BOTH SIDES to engage in a HEALTHY DEBATE on the SERIOUS ISSUES that face BBC.
However, I just as STRONGLY urge those, such as ACE, OVERFLOWINGGRACE and DEACON 4545, who frequently post for the sole purpose of being antagonistic and disruptive, not to attempt to detract with their antagonistic posts. Should they do so, which is their right, I STRONGLY urge posters on BOTH sides not to respond to those types of antagonistic posts that serve NO CONSTRUCTIVE PURPOSE, but ONLY attempt to detract from the SERIOUS ISSUES that face BBC.

ezekiel said...

overflowing,

How is it that the Holy Spirit is only speaking to a couple 100 people in a group of 8500. Some of the leaders of that 200 were against Steve Gaines before he was ever called to be our Pastor. Thats a fact because I heard with my own ears.

I have heard it said that the path truly is narrow......

Maybe a poll would be in order. Maybe we can find out just how many of thse 8500 have read the WORD cover to cover. Find out just how many truly abide in Him.

Karen said...

Whoever suggested reading Micah 3 - WOW!! I've never read that before and I really am amazed at God's powerful words.

Thanks!

karen

ezekiel said...

Micah 3:1 And I said, Hear, I pray you, O heads of Jacob, and ye princes of the house of Israel; [Is it] not for you to know judgment?

3:2 Who hate the good, and love the evil; who pluck off their skin from off them, and their flesh from off their bones;

3:3 Who also eat the flesh of my people, and flay their skin from off them; and they break their bones, and chop them in pieces, as for the pot, and as flesh within the caldron.

3:4 Then shall they cry unto the LORD, but he will not hear them: he will even hide his face from them at that time, as they have behaved themselves ill in their doings.

3:5 Thus saith the LORD concerning the prophets that make my people err, that bite with their teeth, and cry, Peace; and he that putteth not into their mouths, they even prepare war against him.

3:6 Therefore night [shall be] unto you, that ye shall not have a vision; and it shall be dark unto you, that ye shall not divine; and the sun shall go down over the prophets, and the day shall be dark over them.

3:7 Then shall the seers be ashamed, and the diviners confounded: yea, they shall all cover their lips; for [there is] no answer of God.

3:8 But truly I am full of power by the spirit of the LORD, and of judgment, and of might, to declare unto Jacob his transgression, and to Israel his sin.

3:9 Hear this, I pray you, ye heads of the house of Jacob, and princes of the house of Israel, that abhor judgment, and pervert all equity.

Anonymous said...

"overflowingwithgrace,
How do you account for the 3,000 to 3,500 that are missing each Sunday? You must be related to the Communications Committee members since you live in fantasyland.
This is a major reason why you are on this blog. If it was the number you mentioned, I dare say you would have better things to do than to be here wasting your time.
I can see now why you are clueless to what Steve Gaines is doing and saying vs. where it lines up with scripture."

Just wondering,

Has anyone compared the recent numbers to 2-3 years ago when Dr. Gaines wasn't new and thus interest wouldn't have been as high as when a new minister comes? They may have been higher then too, but just a theory.

Anonymous said...

"overflowinggrace,

Are you in the services? I have been MIA for months however I watch on tv and I haven't seen one sad moment yet. Now I did hear he shed some tears over the PW incident and I was glad to hear it but he is far from shy. I was in the choir. He was astompin' his feet and running around all over the place the first few weeks of practices not to mention what was going on during the services. I think you have the blinders on or something."

Di, I think overflowingwithgrace was making a joke.

Anonymous said...

Diana,

I am only joking about Jamie. He is a little over the top for me too, but he is growing on me.

Ezekiel,

How amazing that you make statements questioning the salvation of Bellevue.

To the rest...

The 9:30 service is about the same to me. Where are the attendance numbers published?

Anonymous said...

Charlie Fox,

This is called debate. You need to win some folks over to your side. The poll shows around 100 people...that's not going to be enough.

I think you are ACE. You just set that up and you are trying to work your way into the "private blog" . Good Idea

Karen said...

This was so good I had to post it from BibleGateway.com:

Micah 3
Judgment against Israel’s Leaders

1 I said, “Listen, you leaders of Israel! You are supposed to know right from wrong,
2 but you are the very ones who hate good and love evil. You skin my people alive and tear the flesh from their bones.
3 Yes, you eat my people’s flesh,
strip off their skin, and break their bones.You chop them up like meat for the cooking pot.
4 Then you beg the Lord for help in times of trouble! Do you really expect him to answer? After all the evil you have done, he won’t even look at you!
5 This is what the Lord says: “You false prophets are leading my people astray! You promise peace for those who give you food, but you declare war on those who refuse to feed you.
6 Now the night will close around you, cutting off all your visions.
Darkness will cover you, putting an end to your predictions. The sun will set for you prophets, and your day will come to an end.
7 Then you seers will be put to shame, and you fortune-tellers will be disgraced. And you will cover your faces because there is no answer from God.”
8 But as for me, I am filled with power—with the Spirit of the Lord.
I am filled with justice and strength to boldly declare Israel’s sin and rebellion.
9 Listen to me, you leaders of Israel! You hate justice and twist all that is right.
10 You are building Jerusalem on a foundation of murder and corruption.
11 You rulers make decisions based on bribes; you priests teach God’s laws only for a price; you prophets won’t prophesy unless you are paid. Yet all of you claim to depend on the Lord. “No harm can come to us,” you say, “for the Lord is here among us.”
12 Because of you, Mount Zion will be plowed like an open field;
Jerusalem will be reduced to ruins!
A thicket will grow on the heights
where the Temple now stands.

Can't you just the Cordova property covered in thickets and bushes once again? Sad, sad, sad!

karen

Diana Hart said...

Ezekiel,

We all know there are more than 200. However you are right. It would be interesting to know how many have actually read the Bible. I have read it cover to cover and I read it a lot faster during 2006 than I ever had before. I usually only got through about half of it in a year. We have to make it a priority.

Thanks for Micah 3.

Diana

Karen said...

ezekiel,

God really is good, isn't he? He put on the same brain wave today!

karen

Anonymous said...

EZ said,

I have heard it said that the path truly is narrow......

Maybe a poll would be in order. Maybe we can find out just how many of thse 8500 have read the WORD cover to cover. Find out just how many truly abide in Him. EZ,

I am no Bible scholar and I fall way short of holding any office - but very few people that I know read their Bibles everyday, or at all, for that matter.

I like what Dr. Rogers said - We need to Possess our Possessions

Karen said...

That should be:

Can't you just SEE the Cordova property covered in thickets and bushes once again? Sad, sad, sad!

karen

Diana Hart said...

Apparently I'm having a dingy day. Sorry overflowinggrace. I think I should move on before I completely disgrace myself! ha ha

Di

ezekiel said...

Di,

I was saved back in...or was I? Or do I become saved when I abide in Him and He abides in me? He is the WORD. (John 1) If I have the WORD in me then I think it is safe to say that I am in Him. :)

I agree, estimates suggest we should have 850 to 1600 there. Why do we allow the others to dictate worship and define it?

cjesusnme said...

Charlie,

Thanks for the laugh! I don't know what we would do without you giving us something to laugh about in all this mess because You can't make this stuff up and that is why I wanna cry most of the time, so your humor is a welcomed post for us all!

Anonymous said...

I am told that the estimate at GBC was ONLY 200 or so also. BOY, did that estimate turn out to be wrong.

ezekiel said...

Overflowing,

I question out of love. I want to see everyone I know in heaven one day. I mean no disrespect by questioning your salvation. But I still ask and only out of love, no condemnation....

Have your had your daily bread today? Do you eat every day? Do you abide in Him? Does He abide in you?

Or do you think like I used to, that just because I was convicted in one service one day and went down and joined the church and got baptised that I posessed my salvation?

Koragg said...

Diana Hart said...

Ezekiel,

We all know there are more than 200. However you are right. It would be interesting to know how many have actually read the Bible. I have read it cover to cover and I read it a lot faster during 2006 than I ever had before. I usually only got through about half of it in a year. We have to make it a priority.

Thanks for Micah 3.

Diana


Diana, I was over at Barnes and Noble near Wolfchase yesterday afternoon killing time before I had to be at the bowling alley and I saw a book where the bible is laid out where you can read the entire bible in 90 days. Its by Zondervan and is in the NIV translation.

Anonymous said...

overflowinggrace said...

I think you are ACE.

Reply:
For the 1047th time, I am not Jim.

Karen said...

charlie,

You're not following your own advice, but your reply was funny!

karen

Diana Hart said...

Charlie,

Part of the problem is people want to talk but only a few want to actually do anything. I think if more of us would commit to DOING something things would turn around. I mentioned several months ago that everyone should educate everyone they know. A handful of men can't solve this problem. As we know, ultimately only God can solve the problem but he does choose those He will work through. Are any of you out there feeling led to be part of the solution? I'm including lurkers in these comments. I have friends who want to sit on the sidelines. I'm sure most of you who are really involved have the same types of friends. Just a thought! I also thank the people who give us some comic relief. I am finding myself turing into a far too serious person. We all need a laugh once in awhile.

Diana

Anonymous said...

Karen

I am making myself sit facing the corner for a hour. That will teach me.

Diana Hart said...

Hey Koragg!

I have never seen a Bible like that before. I was reading a post on a different site today where someone said they used to read a lot of novels and even though they weren't a fast reader they decided to start reading the Bible through and quit reading all those novels. They read it through 7 times in one year! I felt convicted. I have mostly quit reading anything else but I'm not reading the Bible through 7 times in one year! My goodness.

Did you bowl today?

Diana

Anonymous said...

"graceupongrace said...
"overflowingwithgrace,
How do you account for the 3,000 to 3,500 that are missing each Sunday? "

Response: I believe that is a gross exaggeration. Unless you know the actual numbers, I would suggest shying away from any estimations you might be inclined to make.

Anonymous said...

diana hart said:

There were many things I noticed very early on but the thing that has bothered me the most (and that is not to diminish any of the other things that have been stated here) is the twisting of the Scripture to promote an agenda. Twisting Scripture is blasphemy. If you want to argue with me about this, I would refer you back to your Bible. It has all the answers you need.


Diana,

I was under the impression you were young, but this shows a lot of wisdom and love for God's word.

When you take God's word out of context it's not God's word anymore but the culprit claims it is. Blasphemy is exactly what it is. In the OT we'd be rounding up the stones whenever someone did that.

h

allofgrace said...
This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
Anonymous said...

"Karen said...
overflowinggrace said...
Some friends of mine in the choir said that Jamie Parker has worked up some great songs for tomorrow. They said he was really excited and wouldnt be so reserved like he normally is.


Does this mean he's finally breaking out the snakes and poison? I've been wondering when they'd show up.

karen "


I'm assuming this is meant as humor. I continue to be amazed that someone would continue to worship where they felt this way.

Anonymous said...

Diana,

My understanding is that GBC had a VERY WELL ORGANIZED core group of about 100. But when it was time to stand and be counted, there were about 2500.

Anonymous said...

Please don't accuse me of being Charlie boy... that is such an insult to me.

I only post as Ace...I don't create other usernames to post with just for the heck of it. I have better things to do with my time than that.

Anonymous said...

faithnhope said...
diana hart said:

There were many things I noticed very early on but the thing that has bothered me the most (and that is not to diminish any of the other things that have been stated here) is the twisting of the Scripture to promote an agenda. Twisting Scripture is blasphemy. If you want to argue with me about this, I would refer you back to your Bible. It has all the answers you need.

Diana,

I was under the impression you were young, but this shows a lot of wisdom and love for God's word.

When you take God's word out of context it's not God's word anymore but the culprit claims it is. Blasphemy is exactly what it is. In the OT we'd be rounding up the stones whenever someone did that.

h

5:30 PM

Response:
Perhaps you both could be more specific about Steve's "blasphemy". Maybe I was absent the day(s)that he blasphemed. How about some examples?

Anonymous said...

The only basphemy and twisting of sciptures around that I have seen is on Mr. Haywood's website.

Anonymous said...

aog wrote,

As for reading the Bible...it's not so much how much you read, as it is how much you actually apply. jmho.


So you're saying it's all about works? (Just kidding, aog)

You're exactly right. What good does it do me to know that the speed limit is 55 if I drive 155?

Anonymous said...

ace said...
Please don't accuse me of being Charlie boy... that is such an insult to me.

Thanx ACE. I already made a DISCLAIMER for us.

Anonymous said...

ezekiel said:
"Or do you think like I used to, that just because I was convicted in one service one day and went down and joined the church and got baptised that I posessed my salvation?"

Response:
This needs some clarification as it does sound like you are questioning his salvation. If this occurred at Bellevue, then he was counseled with the gospel and was only allowed Baptism after sufficiently demonstrating that he understood his decision for Christ.

What exactly have you done beyond this to "posess your salvation"?

MOM4 said...

overflowinggracesaid...
"If Adrian were preaching a sermon series on Abortion and one of the local channels were trying to secretly film the service, you would be outraged."

I doubt that Dr Rogers would have minded his message against abortion getting out into the world. We should be shouting it from the rooftops! I also would have seen it as another mode of outreach, so please don't lump all of us into your speculations of what we would or would not do. Most of the posters on this blog are well taught, well versed and very discerning in their spiritual walk. We have given plenty of people the benefit of the doubt, and it only served to lose precious time while those who would attack Bellevue proceeded to dismantle it.

If you were on a first name basis with Dr Adrian Rogers, you would know that. You have no right to show him so little respect.

Anonymous said...

Charlie,

Thanx ACE. I already made a DISCLAIMER for us.

No problem. And did you? I didn't see it yet...

allofgrace said...
This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
Koragg said...

Hey Koragg!

I have never seen a Bible like that before. I was reading a post on a different site today where someone said they used to read a lot of novels and even though they weren't a fast reader they decided to start reading the Bible through and quit reading all those novels. They read it through 7 times in one year! I felt convicted. I have mostly quit reading anything else but I'm not reading the Bible through 7 times in one year! My goodness.

Did you bowl today?

Diana



I didn't bowl today, all I did was go to my Weight Watchers meeting then to Wal-Mart to pick up some medication.

Anonymous said...

Ezekiel,

I am saved.

You folks should all go to GBC....But 200 is all you have at best.

Koragg said...

Overflowinggrace,

Others have started attending other churches besides GBC. I know that I'm visiting Faith Baptist, and others are probably visiting or moved their membership to other churches as well.

Anonymous said...

herdenuf,

I was not refering to Dr. Gaines. Just because I'm posting here does not mean I'm opposed to him, and you shouldn't assume that. We do have spiritual discussion here quite often that don't involve the pastor.

ace,

If the only twisting of scripture you've seen is on Jim's site, you must think very highly of the blog.

Anonymous said...

FaithNHope,

If the only twisting of scripture you've seen is on Jim's site, you must think very highly of the blog.

Oh, yeah, I forget about this site, as well....

Diana Hart said...

Ace,

We all know how much you love Jim Haywood. Please just give us all a break.

Heardenuf,

Take it up with your Bible.

faithnhope,

I am part of the younger crowd however I am quite fed up with what is going on with the Church at large. I'm tired of people getting up to pray and asking God to "show up," I'm tired of being called a "worship leader" when I am nothing but a servant and a lowly choir member, I am tired of sermons that are taken completely out of context, I am tired of songs that are all about me instead of about Jesus, etc. etc. etc.

Diana Hart said...

There are more than 200 at GBC. Karen and I were there one week and we were surrounded by BBC folks. Supposedly there are only 500 GBC members left and they are running 2000 at the services. There could be 500 from BBC or there could be 1500 from there. There are definitely more than 200.

Anonymous said...

Diana,

I've often wondered exactly where people think God has gone when they ask him to "show up".

Anonymous said...

Diana Hart said...
"Ace,

We all know how much you love Jim Haywood. Please just give us all a break.

Heardenuf,

Take it up with your Bible. "

Response: Once again, when asked for specifics, many are unable to give them. It is very easy to say something, but more difficult to back it up with facts. If Steve Gaines blasphemed it should be easy to document at which point you would gain much credibility with me and others as well. If you are unable to document it, then please refrain from calling our Pastor(yes he's still the Pastor) a blasphemer.

On a more personal note, how can you sit in the choir behind a blasphemer?

Anonymous said...

diana hart said...

I am part of the younger crowd however I am quite fed up with what is going on with the Church at large. I'm tired of people getting up to pray and asking God to "show up," I'm tired of being called a "worship leader" when I am nothing but a servant and a lowly choir member, I am tired of sermons that are taken completely out of context, I am tired of songs that are all about me instead of about Jesus, etc. etc. etc.


Reply:

It is amazing how much we have made church "all about me" instead of all about "Him." All the while we are trying to be convinced to think that what we are doing is making it "all about Him." Sometimes I wonder what God must think as He views us on Sunday mornings! (or Sunday nights and Wednesdays for that matter.)


We have been attending a very small church lately and it's amazing how my focus has been turned back to Jesus and God's Word b/c there are not many "external forces" at work vying for my attention.

standing

Diana Hart said...

faithnhope,

Yeah, I go to a different church now and thankfully I never have to hear my pastor say that, however we had a visiting music group in and two different guys mentioned something about it. My husband and I feel like if we are there (where 2 or more are gathered) He is with us and if he is not with those people asking Him to "show up" then they have a problem. One of the guys was a pastor's son (all grown up now)who I would think would know better than that.

Karen said...

I'll back Diana up on that one - those who still think there are only a handful or 100 or 200 are so sadly mistaken. You should see the emails of support I get (please don't send me emails if you're going to be mean to me!), the emails than Jim H. and NASS and WTB and Tim and AOG get - I could go on and on....but more folks are coming to the TRUTH and I bet that scares the jeepers out of some of the leadership.

About visiting other churches, at GBC and Faith it's like old home week. My best friend's boss goes to Kirby Woods Baptist and she reports of the "Bellevue refugees". I know of former members going to church in Lakeland and Millington. Just because they've chosen to worship elsewhere doesn't mean they've thrown in the towel.

Karen

Anonymous said...

"Diana Hart said...
There are more than 200 at GBC. Karen and I were there one week and we were surrounded by BBC folks. Supposedly there are only 500 GBC members left and they are running 2000 at the services. There could be 500 from BBC or there could be 1500 from there. There are definitely more than 200. "

Response: I think this is a great start and I am not trying to be funny. If I was unable to worship etc. or if I thought the Pastor was blaspheming, I would go to another church. I am honestly glad that those who are unhappy are finding another church where they can worship.

The next step is in not trashing their former church after they have left.

Anonymous said...

karen said:

"I know of former members going to church in Lakeland and Millington. Just because they've chosen to worship elsewhere doesn't mean they've thrown in the towel."

Response:

Why not "throw in the towel"? If those that remain are happy, why not just leave them alone? If Steve is as bad as everyone says and God does judge our church, then you can all say "I told you so".

Will there be a point, where you "throw in the towel"?

Anonymous said...

heardenuf,

You asked us to provide evidence of the Pastor twisting God's word.

I'm asking you to show us evidence from this thread that anyone has accused Dr. Gaines of that.

Fair enough?

Anonymous said...

"Diana Hart said...
faithnhope,

Yeah, I go to a different church now ..."
Response: Sorry Diana about asking the question "How can you sit in the choir behinbd a bvlasphemer?"

I did not realize you were going to another church. I apologize.

Karen said...

heardenuf,

It will be hard for me, but I still feel connected to BBC enough that I will be there tomorrow. I find it so unfair that a man and his leadership can run off all these people who have been at BBC way long before Steve Gaines showed up. I would think your attitude would include some compassion toward these people who have left thusly: Gee, I wonder what's missing at BBC that made these people who had been here so long leave after the new pastor has only been here 15 months or so? The thing that kills me is that NO ONE at BBC has shown me any kind of "we miss you", "we understand you're not happy right now", "what can we do to bring to you back to BBC full-time". There is NO attitude of from the leadership that makes me want to stay - it's my strength in God alone that keeps me at BBC. Like "imaresistor" alluded to earlier today in their post, why should I leave after being there for 20+ years?

karen

Koragg said...

Karen Said:

I know of former members going to church in Lakeland and Millington. Just because they've chosen to worship elsewhere doesn't mean they've thrown in the towel.

Exactly. Those who have left Bellevue to me are trying to be in an environment where they can focus on God.

Karen said...

To continue, I've asked God dozens of times "am I doing the right thing" and He keeps saying "stick with it", so who I am to question? The reason I go visit other churches is so that I can get revitalized so I can stay at BBC for the long run. Steve Gaines is a blip on the radar screen in the life of Bellevue Baptist Church - I ain't leaving over no blip!

karen

Anonymous said...

"faithnhope said...
heardenuf,

You asked us to provide evidence of the Pastor twisting God's word.

I'm asking you to show us evidence from this thread that anyone has accused Dr. Gaines of that.

Fair enough? "

Response:

Yes that is very fair. If you look at my original post you will see quotes directly from Diana Hart and I believe...you? Are you h?

Here's the post in case you can't find it:

faithnhope said...
diana hart said:

There were many things I noticed very early on but the thing that has bothered me the most (and that is not to diminish any of the other things that have been stated here) is the twisting of the Scripture to promote an agenda. Twisting Scripture is blasphemy. If you want to argue with me about this, I would refer you back to your Bible. It has all the answers you need.

Diana,

I was under the impression you were young, but this shows a lot of wisdom and love for God's word.

When you take God's word out of context it's not God's word anymore but the culprit claims it is. Blasphemy is exactly what it is. In the OT we'd be rounding up the stones whenever someone did that.

h

5:30 PM

Response:
Perhaps you both could be more specific about Steve's "blasphemy". Maybe I was absent the day(s)that he blasphemed. How about some examples?

5:33 PM, January 20, 2007

I'll even pull the quotes out for you:

Diana says "Twisting Scripture is blasphemy"

faithandhope says:"When you take God's word out of context it's not God's word anymore but the culprit claims it is. Blasphemy is exactly what it is. In the OT we'd be rounding up the stones whenever someone did that."

Now, how about those examples?

Fair enough?

Koragg said...

Karen,

You have mail :)

Anonymous said...

Diana hart...

Hey! Yes, it is me. You would have never known my reference would you? :)

Sorry about not getting in touch. Have been up to my ears! Staying busy for Jesus! And humbly so.

Ima

Karen said...

koragg,

you have returned mail! :)

Anonymous said...

Karen said...
heardenuf,

It will be hard for me, but I still feel connected to BBC enough that I will be there tomorrow. I find it so unfair that a man and his leadership can run off all these people who have been at BBC way long before Steve Gaines showed up.

Response: I know you and others think "that a man and his leadership can run off all these people who have been at BBC way long before Steve Gaines showed up" but I don't see it as running people off. If they don't like him and thousands of others do, then they should feel free to go somewhere else. I honestly don't see that as running people off.

Now, if it is true, as some say, that Steve forced staff out, then I could see how you think that is running people off.


"I would think your attitude would include some compassion toward these people who have left thusly: Gee, I wonder what's missing at BBC that made these people who had been here so long leave after the new pastor has only been here 15 months or so? "


Response: Who says that is not my attitude. How about if I said, " I would think your attitude would be more along the lines of, I'll leave quietly if I'm unsatisfied so I won't disrupt those that are satisfied."

It goes both ways. I do feel sorry for those that have to leave the church they "loved" but in the same note, I would leave too, if I was unhappy and I have been there for 20 years also.

"The thing that kills me is that NO ONE at BBC has shown me any kind of "we miss you", "we understand you're not happy right now", "what can we do to bring to you back to BBC full-time". There is NO attitude of from the leadership that makes me want to stay - it's my strength in God alone that keeps me at BBC."

Response:
Well, I don't know who you are, but have you said these words face to face to these people so that you will let them know how you feel? If someone told me to my face they were hurt, it would be easier to help them than if they just "disappeared".


"Like "imaresistor" alluded to earlier today in their post, why should I leave after being there for 20+ years? "

karen

Response: You should leave because you are unhappy. No one ever said that leaving was easy, but if you are unhappy in one fellowship, you can always find another. I would not want to attend a church where I felt unloved, unwanted, etc or that the Pastor was a problem. It would be hard, but I would leave.

Anonymous said...

heardenuf,

Sorry, but I don't see Dr. Gaines name connected with that quote.

I can't speak for Diana, but I've never heard the Pastor misuse God's word and I've never said he has. That's all it would take to chase him off.

Some people would say that some of Steve's sermons have been timed for his own benefit (such as the one on forgiveness). Personally, I just think that he's preaching from what God is putting on his heart at the time.

Seriously, heard, this blog isn't filled with anti-Steve people. We just want what's best for the church. Spend a little time getting to know the bloggers, and you'll be see that.

Diana Hart said...

heardenuf,

Thank you for your apology. I joined another church in September. We left before all the savingbellevue stuff started up and I assumed from responses I had gotten that no one was ever going to step up to the plate. I am not sorry I left. I felt called to go serve elsewhere. Now to your question for examples. I said I wasn't going to do this but you are going to cite my comments no matter whether I talk to you or not (Charlie is going to post his comment again I just know it). Here is one of the first things I noticed. He kept saying, "some of you aren't freed up to worship because ________. He filled in the blank every week. Nowhere in Scripture does it say we are going to be "freed up to worship." I knew this in my heart and then someone who knows the Bible backwards and forwards told me that was definitely not in the Bible. We are freed from sin by the blood of Jesus if we are Christians. Worship is NOT an emotional experience. Dr. Rogers and Dr. Spradlin have taught me that over the years. Christianity is not a "feeling." It is a relationship. If you are not reading your Bible and praying daily, no matter what else you are doing or how you are serving you are not in right relationship. I finally understood what the victorious life meant when I got serious about reading the Bible and following what it says. It is very hard to take up your cross and surrender all. In fact, without the supernatural power of Jesus it is impossible. I have spent the last year turning off the tv and immersing myself in the Bible and I have learned through this blog and savingbellevue as well as other websites that there are many many false prophets out there. In fact, Scripture is full of warnings about false prophets. They are everywhere! We all need to ask the Lord for wisdom and discernment daily. We need to die to self daily. We need to take up our cross daily. We need to ask God to use us daily. We need to put on the full armour daily. I could go on and on with this. I used to spend a lot of time praying for others. I have finally realized I need to spend some time praying for myself to do all these things before I can intercede for anyone else. I hope this example is helpful. I can't give you a scripture verse for the "freed up" comments because there isn't one.

Diana Hart

Anonymous said...

Karen said...
To continue, I've asked God dozens of times "am I doing the right thing" and He keeps saying "stick with it", so who I am to question? The reason I go visit other churches is so that I can get revitalized so I can stay at BBC for the long run.

Response: So you feel like God wants you to attend one church so that you can "get revitalized so I can stay at BBC for the long run" ? Wouldn't God want you to be in a fellowship where you can be blessed and be a blessing all of the time?

Steve Gaines is a blip on the radar screen in the life of Bellevue Baptist Church - I ain't leaving over no blip!

karen

Response: What if he isn't a "blip"?

How long do you intend on worshipping underneath the authority of a "blip" and are you being blessed by it?

Diana Hart said...

Ima,

I thought it was you a long time ago - just wasn't sure! I meant to email and ask you but I'm up to my eyeballs as well. I'm working on my mileage for taxes while I'm reading this. I might as well relax while I'm dealing with that, right? ha ha

Karen said...

faithnhope,

Well said! I've never said "it's all Steve Gaines fault" - I find major fault with the leadership as well. When you've got a Finance Committee that won't even pray over a $25,000 contribution suggestion (regardless of where it went), then there is something wrong.

When you've got a pastor that convince 3 other guys (or if it was the other way around - the 3 guys could have convinced the pastor) to climb over a fence on private property, then something is wrong.

I could go on, but I hashed all that last night and it didn't convince anyone to change their mind (hey, if it did, please let me know) so I'll leave it for now.

karen

Anonymous said...

Diana Hart said...


Charlie is going to post his comment again I just know it.

Reply: Nope, not as long as it is a healthy debate.

Anonymous said...

I have been lurking and reading your posts – I have not posted before now – I have not had a catch in spirit. Mine is all from seeing, reading and hearing Pastor Steve Gaines.

We moved here from another city where we lived for many years. Bellevue Sunday Services Telecast was available on cable to us. With our Bibles open, we were able to listen and learn from Dr. Rodgers preaching. What a blessing for us early on Sunday mornings!

Upon moving here we started attending Bellevue. We stopped attending shortly after Steve Gaines arrived. We just could not continue to be under his authority and leadership. How can anyone sit and take sermon notes of his preaching? He has lost all integrity by demonstrating his arrogance, deceitfulness, contempt, and selfishness. Biblically he no longer meets the qualifications of a Pastor.

He has been dishonest to the congregation and told members to leave the church if they don’t like it. But the indefensible act is his careless endangering of our children at Bellevue by keeping a confessed pedophile a secret and employed. Our entire community continues to be in harms way of this pedophile because to this day he is free to roam the streets. While, in the meantime Dr. Gaines is protecting the pedophile and pays him with your tithes. How many more pedophiles that we don’t know about is Gaines protecting/harboring secretly? If he says “none” can you believe him? And on top of all this, we have now learned that Gaines is refusing to cooperate fully with law enforcement investigators.

Please ask yourselves these questions:

1.Why would anyone want to follow this man’s leadership?
2.Why would anyone want to take notes of what this man is preaching?
3.Why should this man’s sermons be televised in our community?

Dr. Gaines, since you are the leader and pastor of Bellevue Baptist Church. Please ask yourself – Why would anyone want to follow me? Please give us some reasons – Thank you.

Diana Hart said...

I forgot to say this before. Gaines is not the only pastor to twist Scripture. It is happening all over the place. When I was talking about the terms "worship leader" and asking God to "show up" these are terms that are showing up in churches all over the country. I was talking about the Church in general. In some ways, I don't think it is totally Gaines fault. He is doing the Warren playbook - for those of you new around here - Rick Warren is the king of twisting scripture around. Gaines seems to be following his lead. We heard on this blog from someone either from W. Jackson or Gardendale who said his sermons have changed since he's been at BBC. I wouldn't at all be surprised. I spoke to someone who was at every SCT performance who said he only mentioned the word "sin" one night. This is someone who is listening very carefully to Gaines. I believe this person. That is the "easy believism" that is invading most of our churches. It goes along with the contemporary music which is also springing up everywhere. These things seem to go hand in hand.

Heardenuf,

You must have not been on here long. We have heard testimony after testimony from people who have been told if they don't like it to leave. Karen isn't being led to leave. She is being led to visit and get what she needs and then come back and support her church. She is doing what God tells her to do. She is a godly woman and I admire her. Please quit questioning her.

Tim said...

Greetings Folks,

I have had a number of activities that have kept me from being as active on the blog as of late.

There are those that have most definetly resolved to move outside of the world-wide-web with these issues and perhaps there are some things that would be of interest to a few here.

Anonymous said...

heardenuf said...
Why not "throw in the towel"? If those that remain are happy, why not just leave them alone?

Reply:
AH, another version of the "If you don't like it then leave" attitude. If would be much better to have said, "Let us BOTH find a way to solve this problem.

Anonymous said...

Diana Hart said:
"He kept saying, "some of you aren't freed up to worship because ________. He filled in the blank every week. Nowhere in Scripture does it say we are going to be "freed up to worship." I knew this in my heart and then someone who knows the Bible backwards and forwards told me that was definitely not in the Bible."

Response: How is that "twisting scripture"? If it's not scripture, then how can it be twisted? Did Steve say it was scripture? I understand your point,(although I don't necessarily agree) but you said he twisted scripture and that that was blasphemy.Those are really strong words, especially in the Christian world and I would hope that you would have specific examples before laying such charges against another christian, especially a Pastor.

"I can't give you a scripture verse for the "freed up" comments because there isn't one. "

Response: I believe what Steve said would be considered a figure of speech. Please don't think I am attacking you, I just want everyone here to be clear in what they post.

Unless Steve referred to these comments as scripture, I don't see how this fits your accusation of "twisting scripture" and "blasphemy". Once again, very strong accusations without proof or documentation.

Anonymous said...

IMHO, part of the problem at BBC stems from the pulpit committe wanting to steer BBC in a different direction.

After watching the DVD of Bro. Steve resigning from Gardendale, I knew that the pulpit committee knew the direction he would take us and they knew that there would be many who would be blindsided by this direction.

Say what you will, but the culture of BBC has definitely changed in the last 15 months. It is not the same church it once was.

I knew that whomever followed Dr. Rogers would not be like him. However, I did expect that person to be humble, wise, prayerful and full of integrity. As the months have passed, there have been serious lapses in judgement in Bro. Steve in these areas.

To me, the staff and leadership are much more concerned with "appearances" than in actually doing what is right so that "appearnaces" take care of themselves.

allofgrace said...
This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
Anonymous said...

"charlie fox said...
heardenuf said...
Why not "throw in the towel"? If those that remain are happy, why not just leave them alone?

Reply:
AH, another version of the "If you don't like it then leave" attitude. If would be much better to have said, "Let us BOTH find a way to solve this problem. "


Response:
The only problem with your logic is that I and others do not think there is a problem, so that makes it a little difficult to "Let us BOTH find a way to solve this problem."

Anonymous said...

diana hart said:
"I was talking about the Church in general. In some ways, I don't think it is totally Gaines fault.
Response: You're not coming to the dark side are you? ;)

He is doing the Warren playbook - for those of you new around here - Rick Warren is the king of twisting scripture around. "

Response: How many times does Steve have to say he has nothing to do with Warren?

Anonymous said...

overflowinggrace said...
Give me a break!!!

If Adrian were preaching a sermon series on Abortion and one of the local channels were trying to secretly film the service, you would be outraged. So don't question why we don't Haywood filming the service.

---

Dr. Rogers would not back down from taking a stand against killing babies...and he would appreciate the extra publicity against something that is wrong.

Andrew

Anonymous said...

Karen said...
faithnhope,

Well said! I've never said "it's all Steve Gaines fault" - I find major fault with the leadership as well. When you've got a Finance Committee that won't even pray over a $25,000 contribution suggestion (regardless of where it went), then there is something wrong.

Response: Did someone from the Finance Comm. tell you there was no prayer?

"I could go on, but I hashed all that last night and it didn't convince anyone to change their mind (hey, if it did, please let me know) so I'll leave it for now.

karen "

Response: I think this is a good point. We're not going to convince each other. I'm just trying to hold people accountable for what they say. If things can be documented that are detrimental to the Lord and His church, I want to know them. But, I don't want people's feelings or "checks" (that I personally do not have)to persuade people who read these forums.

Let's just keep to the facts.

Diana Hart said...

If you are a pastor and you are telling people week after week that they are not "freed up in the spirit" for a different reason every week that is twisting scripture. The masses assume this is in the Bible. He may have backed it up. I was there MONTHS ago. I do not remember. You wanted an example and this is the one I choose to cite. All I can tell you is that my pastor does not make comments like this. I have watched him like a hawk and analyzed his every word since I started and I can find nothing out of order with what he says. We have things that we disagree on that we have talked about outside the realm of his sermons and we agree to disagree on some things. We just see some things differently. I don't just see some things differently with Gaines. I heard wrong theology. These comments were originally about a check in MY spirit. Your spirit may tell you differently. This thread is about checks in our spirit, I have given you an example, and you continue to smear me.

Anonymous said...

Overflowing grace said

How is it that the Holy Spirit is only speaking to a couple 100 people in a group of 8500. Some of the leaders of that 200 were against Steve Gaines before he was ever called to be our Pastor. Thats a fact because I heard with my own ears.

Piglet says:

I do know of some people who left immediately after Steve Gaines came. They had prior knowledge of his character flaws. It took me almost a year to see it for myself.

Any problem I had with Dr. Gaines,I attributed to my sorrow over the loss of Dr. Rogers. I did not trust my own discernment because of this. I felt I was not giving him a chance....

As for numbers:

God doesn't usually have the majority. Hence, the narrow gate.

Remember the story of Gideon's army?

Anonymous said...

heardenuf said...
The only problem with your logic is that I and others do not think there is a problem.

Reply:
My brother, there in lies THE problem. When 2 sides disagree on an issue , THERE IS A PROBLEM. It is up to BOTH sides to understand that a problem exist and work TOGETHER to solve it.
If you and others don't recognize that a problem, as defined above, exists, then YOU and the OTHERS have a much more serious problem.

Anonymous said...

Did Dr. Gaines do a Forty Days of Purpose at FBC Gardendale?

Anonymous said...

Overflowing grace said

You folks should all go to GBC....But 200 is all you have at best.


Piglet says:

More about numbers. Where does God fit into all this for you?

Memphismom02 said...

An announcement apparently will hit Channel 5 news at 10 o'clock tonight. Just gave a brief news flash at 7 pm.

Anonymous said...

charlie fox said...
heardenuf said...
The only problem with your logic is that I and others do not think there is a problem.

Reply:
My brother, there in lies THE problem. When 2 sides disagree on an issue , THERE IS A PROBLEM. It is up to BOTH sides to understand that a problem exist and work TOGETHER to solve it.
If you and others don't recognize that a problem, as defined above, exists, then YOU and the OTHERS have a much more serious problem.

Response: . I should have said "The only problem with your logic is that I and others do not think there is a problem... with the Pastor" I thought that was inferred enough to make sense.

Oh there's a problem alright, just not with the Pastor in my opinion. The problem as I see it and you see it are completely different.

MOM4 said...

Charlie Fox,
There are many people who do not have the gift of discernment. Perhaps that is why the division within the church exists. I would say that perhaps they need to compare the actions of the pastor and staff with the Word and seek the truth that way. They are obviously not of the mindset to hear the truth from us, so perhaps the Lord can convince them. I am always reminded of the rich man and Lazarus. The rich man, being in torment, wanted the Lord to send someone to warn his brothers. The Lord said that they already had sufficient warning, but they would still not believe. I am afraid that such is the way of BBC.

Diana Hart said...

Piglet makes a very good point. I think there were many people who were so wrapped up in their grief, they may not have been paying that much attention to what was being said. Others were taught to follow the pastor no matter what and thought they were doing what was right even though they noticed something was wrong.

allofgrace said...
This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
ezekiel said...

heardenuf,

You said, This needs some clarification as it does sound like you are questioning his salvation. If this occurred at Bellevue, then he was counseled with the gospel and was only allowed Baptism after sufficiently demonstrating that he understood his decision for Christ.

What exactly have you done beyond this to "posess your salvation"?

So your definition of salvation is "he was counceled with the Gospel" by BBC....? When did BBC get into the salvation business? Just becasue that person could answer the questions doesn't mean anything. People take and pass tests every day.

And even the evil spirits know who He is... I don't think that knowing and making a decison to confess Him as the Christ is in itself an end to the salvation experience. And before you jump me about works....I go to the scripture and Jesus himself says abide in Me and I will abide in you.

Abide means dwell, or live. So if I live in Him can you explain how you or I do that without eating Him daily? Or do you want to sit around and feel that you know Him and live any way you want as long as you show up on Sunday and support your annointed and put a sacrifice in the plate?

It says repeatedly, IF you follow my commandments and statutes, you will be my people and I will be your God. How do you make that work if you don't even know his commandments and statutes?

I am not saying you don't. It is not my place to judge. But you can't tell me that you don't know people that claim to be saved or have their ticket that could not be further from God. That never read their Bible and live as they want. Their salvation is tied to a brief experience or feeling and walking down the isle. This sure does make His sacrifice pretty cheap don't you think?

Sorry I did not reply sooner, the rib eye was waiting and the kids were lining up like birds in a nest. :)

Anonymous said...

Heardenuf

Why not "throw in the towel"? If those that remain are happy, why not just leave them alone? If Steve is as bad as everyone says and God does judge our church, then you can all say "I told you so".
Piglet says:

We love our church. We do not want to be scattered to the four winds.

We do not want to relinquish what God has built to a man with an earthly agenda.

My love for Jesus, and our former pastor compels me to stay and spread the truth that is being covered up.

Anonymous said...

Diana Hart said:

"I don't just see some things differently with Gaines. I heard wrong theology."

Response: And I would disagree, but thank you for posting what you consider "twisting scripture".

These comments were originally about a check in MY spirit. Your spirit may tell you differently.

Response: It does, but that doesn't make either one of us bad. You have done the right thing by going to a church that has a Pastor that "I have watched him like a hawk and analyzed his every word since I started and I can find nothing out of order with what he says. We have things that we disagree on that we have talked about outside the realm of his sermons and we agree to disagree on some things. We just see some things differently "

I would just encourage you to go a step farther and refrain from calling Steve a blasphemer who is "twisting scripture" The example you gave is not "twisting scripture", I'm sorry. It may be "wrong theology" as you stated , but not "twisting scripture" as you originally stated




This thread is about checks in our spirit, I have given you an example, and you continue to smear me.

Response: I am merely stating what you stated. I don't see how I "continue to smear me" by asking you to give examples of blasphemy. By your own words, you have said that your example was not even scripture. Twisting scripture would be along the lines of the "name it and claim it crew".

Anonymous said...

Heardenuf

Let me add:

These power seekers, these egotistical leaders who follow after the PD model to build their own empires see the large exodus at the beginning of their "reign" as a purging of those who "stand in their way" öf ultimate control and wealth.

Get rid of those with discernment, and then you have those who will stand for nothing but will fall for anything. Plenty of empires built on this premise - just watch TBN.

I, personally, do not want to cooperate with this part of the plan!

Diana Hart said...

Ezekiel is right. I remember being very thoroughly questioned when we joined BBC. I was born into a Southern Baptist Church where I was taught all the "right" answers. I remember thinking during that interview that I could answer those questions in my sleep. That doesn't mean I'm a Christian. That just means I know the right answers. Practically everyone can recite John 3:16.

Diana

Anonymous said...

piglet said:

"We love our church. We do not want to be scattered to the four winds."

Response: Finally someone has said it. Do you love "your church" more than you love Lord? Of course not, no one would say that. It is not "our church", it is not "my church" and not "your church". I assume you know that too, but many here continue to talk about "our church" and their love for it, yet they continue to belittle the man that God has called to lead it. (Yes, I do believe that God has called Steve.) If you do not, then why not find another part of the body (the Lord's church) to be a part of? I'm sure there are many Methodists/Episcopalians etc. who have had to consider the same thing.

"We do not want to relinquish what God has built to a man with an earthly agenda."

Response: Why not, if God is in it, it will survive, if God is not, His church (the body) will still survive. Once again, I disagree with your conclusion that Steve is "a man with an earthly agenda." Who's right? One day we'll know completely.


"My love for Jesus, and our former pastor compels me to stay and spread the truth that is being covered up."

Response:

My love for Jesus, and our former Pastor compels ME to hold many accountable for their words on this forum.

Anonymous said...

Diana Hart said...
Ezekiel is right. I remember being very thoroughly questioned when we joined BBC. I was born into a Southern Baptist Church where I was taught all the "right" answers. I remember thinking during that interview that I could answer those questions in my sleep. That doesn't mean I'm a Christian. That just means I know the right answers. Practically everyone can recite John 3:16.

Diana

Response: Correct, but his salvation was being questioned and only God knows all of our hearts. However, when we "know the right answers" and we bear fruit, we humans can believe a person's words until proven otherwise.

Anonymous said...

piglet,

You are so right on...I was told that BBC was being purged and when the Lord was done, those who were left were the ones who God wanted to be there.


I'll never understand how people can tell you to "just leave." When my children or my husband for that matter and I have a disagreemnt, we work through it--I don't tell them to hit the door and don't come back!

The church is the same way--we're a family. The problem is that instead of having loving "parents" we have leadership that says, "My way or the highway" and they could care less which sheep leave. In fact, they would rather the sheep leave.

Disagreements are not fun, but they are normal and healthy. How you handle them is very imporant and very telling.

Anonymous said...

Heardenuf

Response: How many times does Steve have to say he has nothing to do with Warren?

Piglet says:

Sorry,but if it quacks like a duck...

I don't care what he calls it, it's following the playbook whether HE knows it or not.

Maybe he's being led by the same "spirit" as Warren.

Besides, I doubt he would EVER give credit to ANYONE ELSE for something he does. He's too proud.

Anonymous said...

Another "check" is why SG is pursuing additional stations for Bellevue services.

Expansion seems oddly timed when we have more important issues on the table and money to pay the bills in slowing down.

Anyone?

Tim said...

Piglets message...
"We do not want to relinquish what God has built to a man with an earthly agenda."

Heardenufs Response:

Why not, if God is in it, it will survive, if God is not, His church (the body) will still survive. Once again, I disagree with your conclusion that Steve is "a man with an earthly agenda." Who's right? One day we'll know completely.


Tim Says....
Perhaps it has not occured to you and I am certain that it has not, but is it not possible that God is involved in the leading of those that are seeking truth and transparency.

Anonymous said...

Piglet said...
Heardenuf

Let me add:

"These power seekers, these egotistical leaders who follow after the PD model to build their own empires see the large exodus at the beginning of their "reign" as a purging of those who "stand in their way" öf ultimate control and wealth."

Response: And your opinion is that Steve is in this group?

"Get rid of those with discernment, and then you have those who will stand for nothing but will fall for anything. Plenty of empires built on this premise - just watch TBN .

I, personally, do not want to cooperate with this part of the plan! "

Response: I know you'll be mad at this but... then why not go somewhere else and let the rest of us fall for this plot? I don't go to TBN.

Anonymous said...

heardenuf said...
"How many times does Steve have to say he has nothing to do with Warren?"

Meaning no disrespect to you whatsoever mam/sir (?), but you really don't understand. Transitioning an established church from a program driven church to a purpose driven church is done under the veil of darkness. Just the pastor and the few elect power brokers are on the team. Don't take my word for it. Purchase the book by Dan Southerland, "Transitioning-Leading Your Church Through Change". It is all there for you in black and white. You also need to read The Purpose Driven Church by Rick Warren.

Anonymous said...

AOG said

What some should realize is that these issues reach beyond Bellevue's walls..as many have noted..the world is watching..they're watching to see how this all ends up. Bellevue, in her position as one of the most high profile churches in the SBC, has influence..like it or not. How this plays out will set precedence. Some of you say.."why not just go elsewhere?"...well here's the thing..as I and many others see it..if the way things are currently being done at BBC succeeds in remaining in place...pastor rule, with no accountability, secrecy, etc...there will be a domino effect on the churches of the SBC...in short..there'll be no "elsewhere" to go.

Piglet says:

AMEN! Many in our same dilemma are watching and hoping for a solution to all this, not surrender.

Anonymous said...

"Tim Says....
Perhaps it has not occured to you and I am certain that it has not, but is it not possible that God is involved in the leading of those that are seeking truth and transparency.

Response: That's a good point. Perhaps it has not ocurred to you and I am certain that it has not, but it is possible that God IS NOT involved in the leading of those that are SUPPOSEDLY "seeking truth and transparency."

It goes both ways.

And for the record, I have thought of it and rejected it.

allofgrace said...
This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
Anonymous said...

Overflowinggrace said:

You folks should all go to GBC....But 200 is all you have at best.

5:42 PM, January 20, 2007


REPLY:

Then why is it that some of your paid leadership is having secretaries to monitor the blog? Evidentially they are worried about our "200" enough that they are keeping tabs on our movements. From what some of them have told us, it's part of their job description now! That's right folks! They are monitoring the blog with your tithes! Doesn't that make you feel good about dropping more money in the plate tomorrow?

As far as the number 200, you might be surprised to know just how many there are....and it's bugging you and the others and that's why you are monitoring us, right?! You might fool others, but you don't fool me!!!!!!!!!

Tim said...

heardenuf,

I have been at Bellevue over 25 years. I don't believe that God has always called people to be where they are most comfortable, as a matter of fact God calls people many times to do what is uncomfortable.

This is an analogy of your argument:

Perhaps I could come by your house this evening and cart out your television set. Of course, it would be much easier if I just came by and moved in and you left.
Seems kind of crazy doesn't it?

Anonymous said...

imaresistor said...
heardenuf said...
"How many times does Steve have to say he has nothing to do with Warren?"

Meaning no disrespect to you whatsoever mam/sir (?), but you really don't understand. Transitioning an established church from a program driven church to a purpose driven church is done under the veil of darkness. Just the pastor and the few elect power brokers are on the team. Don't take my word for it. Purchase the book by Dan Southerland, "Transitioning-Leading Your Church Through Change". It is all there for you in black and white. You also need to read The Purpose Driven Church by Rick Warren.


Response: No disrespect taken. I was just responding to those who call Steve a "Warrenite" and continue to propigate "his desire" to follow Rick Warren.

By the way, I thought these few "power brokers" were the same people that many here claim to be the people who have always been on the same committess and have always run the church.

Which is it? Did Steve just happen to come in and identify those that were already in position of leadership and then convince them to follow his diabloical plan or is Steve the pawn himself?

Anonymous said...

Heardenug

If you personally knew of the corruption within the leadership in your church, would you sneak quietly away like a coeard? I HOPE NOT>

I hope you would tell my family about it so we would not be misled.

The corruption continues to flourish if left unconfronted.

Anonymous said...

Tim said...
heardenuf,

I have been at Bellevue over 25 years. I don't believe that God has always called people to be where they are most comfortable, as a matter of fact God calls people many times to do what is uncomfortable.

This is an analogy of your argument:

Perhaps I could come by your house this evening and cart out your television set. Of course, it would be much easier if I just came by and moved in and you left.
Seems kind of crazy doesn't it?

7:41 PM, January 20, 2007

Response: If I really was the OWNER of the TV yes, but if God owns it, I'd leave it up to Him to decide what to do. Poor analogy...apples and oranges.

allofgrace said...
This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
Tim said...

heardenuf,

And could you elaborate on what basis you choose to reject that notion upon.

Anonymous said...

Which is it? Did Steve just happen to come in and identify those that were already in position of leadership and then convince them to follow his diabloical plan or is Steve the pawn himself?

7:41 PM, January 20, 2007

It seems they fell in love at first, or second or third sight.

Anonymous said...

Diana,

Please ck your email.
God Bless

Anonymous said...

Piglet said...
"Heardenug

If you personally knew of the corruption within the leadership in your church, would you sneak quietly away like a coeard? I HOPE NOT>"

Response: Does this mean you are going to give me some "personal information" or just more I heard/I think/I feel statements?

And who says that I don't know "personal information" that contradicts all you say, but am unwilling, as you are" to share it and end all of this.

"I hope you would tell my family about it so we would not be misled."

Response: If it is factual and backed up, not just feelings or hearsay/innuendo/insinuation/exaggeration/gossip etc., then I would gladly tell your family. But if it was any of those things I would keep my mouth shut for fear of leading you astray in my attempt to keep you from being misled.

The corruption continues to flourish if left unconfronted.

Response: Examples please.

Anonymous said...

Heardenuf:

Response: And your opinion is that Steve is in this group?

Piglet says:

A guy that shows up and just in the door demands a salary almost double that of his RETIRED predecessor,

one who says in a close door meeting with some deacons "I am accountable to none of you"...

one who disobeys laws concerning comingling of funds, tresspassing, and reporting child abuse...

Yeah,I think he's part of that group.

Anonymous said...

Tim said...
"heardenuf,

And could you elaborate on what basis you choose to reject that notion upon"

Response: I have no "check" in my spirit and I trust those involved in the selection of our Pastor. I believe Steve has a heart for the Lord and the lost. That is my basis.

Diana Hart said...

I agree with AOG.

ezekiel said...

heardenuf,

1)I am missing something here. Just whose salvation do you think I am questioning? I thought I was making general statments not directed at any one personally. Sorry if it was taken any other way.

Anonymous said...

Hearenuf said:

Response: I know you'll be mad at this but... then why not go somewhere else and let the rest of us fall for this plot? I don't go to TBN.

Piglet says:


That's really not up to you, now is it? I think God alone will decide this for us.

allofgrace said...
This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
Anonymous said...

piglet,

I think heardenuf is the real swine here.

The name says it all..."I aint got no ears to hear and my words are constant contention."

Sometimes you need to leave some folks to themselves and the Holy Spirit.

IMHO

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