Sunday, January 07, 2007

Let's Continue...

Note: The purpose of this forum is for discussion of serious issues in a civil and respectful manner, which most of the people who've come here have maintained, and for that, I truly appreciate all of you and your efforts! However, the past two nights a small group of sheep not only chose to run amok but just about everywhere else sheep shouldn't tread. Let's just say I do not want to ever see a repeat performance of the last two night's sessions. I also do not need advice about which comments I should or should not delete and will not respond to any "encouragement" of that nature. I don't tell anyone else how to moderate any other forum and would appreciate the same courtesy in return. Any post containing the phrase hate-filled or grow up or the word precious, cookie, attack, or similar sentiments or silliness will be subject to deletion. I would also like to ask our serious posters to not respond to these sorts of comments in any way. In other words, don't feed the trolls!

Another note: We've seen this "troll" tactic before, and they've even threatened to change just a letter or two in the screen name to throw people off. So carefully read the screen name before responding. In fact, check the profile. If the name is familiar (or exactly the same but the message sounds out of character) and the profile view number is low, it could be an imposter. I've no doubt "blessne" is someone on the "pro-SG side" who is trying to make "us" look bad. Don't fall into their traps!

To those who are using these tactics, I would ask you, if we're such a small number of "disgruntled" members, then why bother with us? Surely we couldn't pose any threat to anyone.

Let me remind everyone with legitimate concerns to really think about the tone you use and not to throw out unfounded accusations or suppositions not based on fact. If you're angry when you write something, take the time to cool off before you publish it. It'll be much easier to separate the wheat from the chaff if you'll maintain a civil, respectful tone regardless of your opinions.

Now, having gotten those unfortunate but necessary statements out of the way, shall we continue?

I have received a couple of intriguing e-mails in the past week or so from someone with the partial e-mail address of "TLineman33." Unfortunately, this brave soul did not sign his or her name, but I get the impression he or she is not a member of Bellevue. However, I thought I'd share his or her rather interesting thoughts anyway.

The first was apparently forwarded to this mystery person by our own Grandma Billie and contained an attached letter which Mr. Dave Shreve, a Bible Fellowship teacher at Bellevue, sent to Mark Sharpe. In it Mr. Shreve states that he "doubts" he'll see the letter published on Mr. Sharpe's website. Since I'm not aware of Mr. Sharpe having a website, and since Mr. Shreve seems to desire his letter be published on such a site, I thought I'd oblige.

The second document consists of two letters from "Lineman33" which I think speak for themselves. The January 6th letter refers to the letter to Mark Sharpe from above.

Then yesterday at least two posters received this letter from "Will":

Date: Sun, 7 Jan 2007
From: Wranglerguy8 wranglerguy8@yahoo.com
Subject: Letter from Will
To: xxxxxxxx

I have been reading your posts on the anti-everything blog. You are one sick woman. I would tend to think you need to get some counseling for deliverance from your evil and wicked spirit.

You are a sad excuse for a believer.

674 comments:

1 – 200 of 674   Newer›   Newest»
Outsider said...
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Anonymous said...

Our prayer is that God will be with us in our Churches THIS MORNING the way that God wants to be with us and not the we way we want him to be with us. AMEN

Anonymous said...

I read the posts NBBCOF had in the heading of this newer thread. This is indeed sad. This is no more than 'marking' a man for persecution. These people are saying literally, "Here, this is Mark Sharpe's picture. When you see him, be sure to point him out and persecute him for us".And this is Christlike? Once again I must say that somebody's fruit is showing.

John 13:35 "By this shall all men know that ye are my disciples, if ye have love one to another."

What I just read in these posts was vengence. And you do remember what the Lord said about that don't you?

Koragg said...

Yeah, that sickened me to see that. Once again, there is a lack of honor among Gaines supporters.

BTW, if any of you go to the 9:30 service, please let me know what happens.

Anonymous said...

MARK SHARPE...

Mark, I have tried for about three months to reach you. I have had no luck in doing so. My husband has much in common with you in these church matters, poor name but best I can come up right now. :( If by chance, you should come across this post, I'd like you to email me here:

imaresistor@yahoo.com

I'd just like to talk with you for a couple of minutes.

Anonymous said...

Hi All! I had intended to be at BBC today but I am home sick instead. :( Please let me know how everything went.

Anonymous said...

I think Lineman33 had his wording confused:
SG is now a marked man and everywhere he goes around Memphis people will say there he is - the one who destroyed Dr. Adrian Roger's integrity and years of labor all because he hated to be open and truthful. He is the man who exaggerated (lied) distorted truth, tortured many godly people all while claiming to be a Christian.
Yes, SG had better have a face lift soon!

Anonymous said...
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Anonymous said...

Koragg,

BTW, if any of you go to the 9:30 service, please let me know what happens.

Great music (worship) + a great message...and that's all there was to it. :)

Anonymous said...

Concerning the letter that was sent out by BBC to parents telling them that the safety of children is their utmost concern.

P U H L E E E E E E E E E E Z E

Would someone help me to square that with the fact that SG hid from his congregation that there was a KNOWN, CONFESSED pedophile in our midst?

And further, he would STILL be among us if SG had not been forced to admit it.

AGAIN...SG did one of these two things:

1) he went home and told his wife and children about PW and advised his OWN children to stay away from PW.. ( and why wouldn't donna have 'dropped a dime' on him )

2) he did not go home and tell his wife and children about PW, thereby putting his own kids at risk

if he chose #1:

one can only conclude that he would protect his OWN children, but not yours

if he chose #2:

If he failed to protect his own children, what makes you think he would protect YOURS?

Pedophilia thrives in secrecy

Anonymous said...

The sermon today was self serving in that it's time to move on folks...nothin to see here..

I'm happy to report ( much to the dismay of SG, i'm sure) that there was no standing ovation for the hider of the pedophile.

I did not see John Caldwell. I have to wonder if that is why there was no standing O, since he IS the head cheerleader.

MOM4 said...

fedup,
How was the attendance - total?

New BBC Open Forum said...

Well, folks. We weren't treated to any statements or apologies or standing O's for the pastor in the 9:30 service this morning although I thought they were going to a couple of times. David Brown was there and reportedly the first person he ran into was David Coombs. That must have been interesting, and I imagine word spread quickly that David Brown was in the building.

NASS just had to escape to that inner "happy place" in the middle of the sermon when "those who remind us of the past" were equated with Satan. There were lots of good points about forgiveness and being "covered by the blood" and not dwelling in the past, but no mention of the earthly consequences of sin. I guess if no one finds out, there are no consequences.

Jim Haywood reportedly had a minor encounter with security in the balcony. Seems he was spotted preparing to videotape the anticipated post-invitation statement by the pastor, and "security" frowned on this and kindly offered to escort him out of the service unless he "ceased and desisted." {sigh} Just another Sunday at Bellevue.

Attendance appeared to be down, much as it has been the past couple of months.

Anonymous said...

mom4

Since "we" were sitting down front, it was hard to gauge the attendance..I can tell that better when I am in the balcony.

I looked around and tried to determine attendance, but I cannot give you an accurate answer.

Anonymous said...

Mom4,

How was the attendance - total?

There was a decent crowd in both services, in my opinion. The 11am was not as packed, though.

Anonymous said...

NBBCOF,

Jim Haywood reportedly had a minor encounter with security in the balcony. Seems he was spotted preparing to videotape the anticipated post-invitation statement by the pastor, and "security" frowned on this and kindly offered to escort him out of the service unless he "ceased and desisted." {sigh} Just another Sunday at Bellevue.

Hasn't this always been Bellevue policy? I wanted to record something years ago and I was told I couldn't...

MOM4 said...
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Anonymous said...
This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
Anonymous said...

LOL..

When I watch Jamie up there with his big ol grin, I am reminded of somthing that my papaw used to say to us as kids

" It's vulgar to show your teeth when you smile"

We used to laugh at him and give him a hard time about that statement, but now i think i understand what he was talking about.

Of course, that explains why in all those old photos from the turn of the century ( 19th to 20th) they all look so mad.

MOM4 said...

outsider,
There are those of us who have committed to fasting and praying during the times the Lord has led us according to Isaiah 58. If we fast out of our own desire, then it is a fast WE have chosen. I believe the Lord calls us to fast, and when he does, I do.
While I have no doubt your intentions are good, I will follow the Lord's leading.

MOM4 said...

I set up my video tripod and taped both my son's baptisms from the front row and no one said a word. What's up with that?

MOM4 said...
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New BBC Open Forum said...

If it's against Bellevue's policy to take photographs or videotape short portions of a service or program for personal use (i.e. not for resale), then I've been violating that policy for several years. If this is the case, more than one person is violating copyright laws by posting video from Dr. Rogers' sermons on YouTube and other sites. The only "rule" I've ever heard them mention is "no flash photography." Someone please correct me if I'm wrong -- preferably with a copy of the church's written policy.

Anonymous said...

Personally I thought today's sermon was quite good. I didn't see him rip anything out of context like others charged him of doing... before he even preached the sermon. There was also no post-sermon apology like everyone was talking about; any news on what happened with this, or was it just a rumor?

Anonymous said...

It was such a blessing to me to get to meet David Brown today. I admire him for his hard work in protecting children from pedophiles.

David, if i can ever do anything to help you in that effort, please do not hesitate to call on me!

Anonymous said...

Moderator,

Could you please check your email or at least address the posts that you've been deleting of mine? I need to understand the rules of this forum but I need your help in doing that.

Anonymous said...

Recording at BBC: At the Wednesday night performance of the SCT, the man in front us recorded the entire first half, all the way through where the Wise men come in. Security kept walking by and looking but never said anything to him.

allofgrace said...

Here's something I found to be dangerous in this morning's sermon:

The fact that particular sins keep coming to mind in a person is not necessarily the work of the devil. I've always been taught..and I believe this to be true..that the devil accuses us more in a general way...the Holy Spirit points out particular sins...calls it what it is..such as...you lied, that's stealing, etc..always pointing us to where and how we sinned. I would agree that the enemy will try to keep us defeated in a number of ways...including reminding us that we're sinners...however repeated reminders of particular sins could be 1)that the person is a Christian, and perhaps has confessed, but restitution has not been made 2)The person is lost, has a false sense of assurance, and the Holy Spirit is convicting that person. To make a blanket statement that sins coming to a person's mind is always the work of the devil, is dangerous in my view. If I'm wrong about this, then correct me.

Anonymous said...

Do some of the same people attend both services? That would be a little deceptive in the actual attendance would it not? Why would anybody go to both services other than to boost the numbers?

allofgrace said...

imaresistor,
We don't know that anyone does..or at least I don't know..what brought that up?

Anonymous said...

My wife and I have used our camcorder many times throughout the years during Sunday services (morning and evening) and Wednesday evenings, and we have never had anybody tell us to stop. We’ve been on the front row, in the balcony, etc., and we have never had any problems.

Also, it was a refreshing change this morning to not have to witness any standing ovations for our pastor. Perhaps, more people are finally seeking the truth….

My family and I continue to pray for our church. We continue to pray that God will open the eyes of all to see what is going on. Also, my wife and I have had many discussions and lessons with our children over the past several months to discuss the topic of integrity. They already realize now at their very young ages why it is important to tell the truth, stand up for the truth, and to remain focused on God. Integrity is important even if it is unpopular at times.

Anonymous said...

Some passing thoughts:

i-flyaway said...
I think Lineman33 had his wording confused:
SG is now a marked man and everywhere he goes around Memphis people will say there he is - the one who destroyed Dr. Adrian Roger's integrity and years of labor all because he hated to be open and truthful. He is the man who exaggerated (lied) distorted truth, tortured many godly people all while claiming to be a Christian.


You may not have heard this before, but those of us who are Christians don't get to make pronouncements on the salvation of another individual--whether the subject of the speculation is Mark Sharpe or Pastor Gaines.

Koragg said...
Yeah, that sickened me to see that. Once again, there is a lack of honor among Gaines supporters.


Almost sounds like a Klingon response, which--being a Star Trek fan--is always cool. But careful with the labels, and please don't suggest that others' behavior is pristine.

BTW, if any of you go to the 9:30 service, please let me know what happens.

A shame you weren't there--it was a wonderful service.

imaresistor said...
MARK SHARPE...

Mark, I have tried for about three months to reach you. I have had no luck in doing so.


I've been at it awhile myself. No response as of yet.

fedupatbbc said...

AGAIN...SG did one of these two things:

1) he went home and told his wife and children about PW and advised his OWN children to stay away from PW.. ( and why wouldn't donna have 'dropped a dime' on him )

2) he did not go home and tell his wife and children about PW, thereby putting his own kids at risk

if he chose #1:

one can only conclude that he would protect his OWN children, but not yours

if he chose #2:

If he failed to protect his own children, what makes you think he would protect YOURS?


And there are no other options, just those you say are available?

Fascinating...

New BBC Open Forum said...

Jim Haywood reportedly had a minor encounter with security in the balcony. Seems he was spotted preparing to videotape the anticipated post-invitation statement by the pastor, and "security" frowned on this and kindly offered to escort him out of the service unless he "ceased and desisted." {sigh} Just another Sunday at Bellevue.


Please don't try to equate Jim's behavior with taping a relative's baptism, folks. If that's what happened, he should've been asked to cease and desist.

And Jim, if you're reading this, I must tell you at how disappointing it is to hear about what you attempted to do.

MOM4 said...

I watched online and could barely get past Jamie's routine. It is a shame he could not have been the cruise director for Carnival - he does such a good job being the only voice you can hear on the microphone.


It is a shame that you couldn't have actually attended church this morning. Just as with the television broadcasts, the Internet stream is for those who want to attend, yet are unable to do so--not so that people can hurl shallow insults at those fellow believers involved in worship.

MOM4 said...

While I have no doubt your intentions are good, I will follow the Lord's leading.


Is it "the Lord's leading," then, to make such remarks as you made about Jamie Parker?

I have no doubt that in your heart of hearts, whoever you are, you desire to follow the Lord. In that light, please reconsider your previously-quoted remarks.

Church is at 6 tonight, folks. I hope to see you there!

--Mike

Anonymous said...

If anyone wonders if there is anyone "SavingBellevue" won't associate with in order to execute it's vendetta against Steve Gaines, wonder no more.

They have a link there to an article from James Sundquist.

Mr. Sundquist's entire "ministry" is geared towards attacking other Christian leaders with whom he disagrees.

His latest slanderous attack?

Attacking "Focus on the Family" as being "fortunetellers and soothsayers whose foundation is build on sorcery and evolution..."

But hey... SavingBellevue give these attacks on Focus on the Family "ink" because they are from someone who doesn't like Dr. Gaines.

Shame on James Sundquist. Shame on Jim Haywood. Shame on those who condone slander.

Tim said...

Concerning this morning sermon, I must say it was the best delivery that I have ever seen Steve Gaines accomplish.

Unfortunatley what was witnessed was a $20 delivery of a 10 cent sermon.

Anonymous said...

mom4 said:

"I watched online and could barely get past Jamie's routine. It is a shame he could not have been the cruise director for Carnival "

That cracks me up! Thanks for making my day.

Anonymous said...

Tim said...
Concerning this morning sermon, I must say it was the best delivery that I have ever seen Steve Gaines accomplish.

Unfortunatley what was witnessed was a $20 delivery of a 10 cent sermon.

1:48 PM, January 07, 2007


Then by all means, Tim, prepare a "$20 sermon" and preach it someplace. What good does it do to make such evaluations in the first place?

--Mike

Anonymous said...

lucy said...
mom4 said:

"I watched online and could barely get past Jamie's routine. It is a shame he could not have been the cruise director for Carnival "

That cracks me up! Thanks for making my day.


Why do you find that funny, much less day-making?

--Mike

Anonymous said...

allofgrace said...
"imaresistor, We don't know that anyone does..or at least I don't know..what brought that up?"

This did:
ace said...
"There was a decent crowd in both services, in my opinion. The 11am was not as packed, though."

This was a norm at my former church. :)

Anonymous said...

Tim, Did he follow the outline you posted?

Tim said...

Mike Bratton

I suppose that would be my business and not yours. Now wouldn't it.

No one has appointed you God of the blog. or God of the internet or God of Bellevue.

Good Day!

Anonymous said...

I don't believe that Dr. R's integrity has been destroyed. The people who would say his reputation is now destroyed would be the same people who have always looked for something to criticize him about.

The current mess only exemplifies a strong contrast between a man who lead with integrity and one who leads with little.

allofgrace said...

imaresistor,
As ace said it was his opinion..it's been my experience that the early service is usually larger than the 11 o'clock..that can vary depending on the number of visitors and which service they choose to attend...I've only attended both services once a couple of years ago, and I can't remember what my reason was at the time..but I don't think that's the norm for most folks...I'm not saying that what you're driving at isn't possible, but neither do I want to chase shadows, when we have issues before us that are confirmed.

Anonymous said...

Mike

No need to be so cranky - sounds like you need a little nap. Nothing beats a nice Sunday afternoon nap on a rainy day!

I love my church said...

For the record, in the 9:30 service there was an attempted standing ovation when SG stood and began walking toward the podium (right after Lalania's song). I watched a group stand to my left. They were definitely not standing for Lalania because they waited too long. They were definitely standing for the pastor. A small percentage of those toward the front stood for him. The majority kept their seats. At best the standing ovation was a bust.

SG said some things that made me wonder if he does not believe he will be pastor of BBC much longer. He said nothing directly on point; just some hints.

Anonymous said...

Tim said...
Mike Bratton

I suppose that would be my business and not yours. Now wouldn't it.


That's the sticky part of making negative public evaluations of someone else's sermons, Tim. If you can't do better, your evaluation has a hard time holding water, wouldn't you agree?

No one has appointed you God of the blog. or God of the internet or God of Bellevue.

Nice, measured response.

Again, what good comes out of the statements you've made?

--Mike

Anonymous said...

Yeah... come on Mike!

Loosen up! What could be more fun that hurling insults at your pastor or the minister of music?

Give it a try! It is a hoot!

Anonymous said...

AOG...
No, no...let us not make more out of this than what was intended. No harm meant in my remarks. Just that I have seen this actually done by a church to try to make numbers larger. That is all I saw there and couldn't help but wonder. I apoligize profusely if I offended you or anyone else. Simply was not my point or my intention.

Anonymous said...

lucy said...
Mike

No need to be so cranky - sounds like you need a little nap. Nothing beats a nice Sunday afternoon nap on a rainy day!


Projection is never a good thing, Lucy.

My question was anything but "cranky," so I'll ask it again, but more specifically: How is mocking Jamie Parker as he serves the Lord Jesus Christ in worship in any way funny?

--Mike

allofgrace said...

imaresistor,
no offense taken...just trying to keep the issues from being clouded by possibilities.

Just My Opinion said...

Tim wrote: "Concerning this morning sermon, I must say it was the best delivery that I have ever seen Steve Gaines accomplish.

Unfortunately what was witnessed was a $20 delivery of a 10 cent sermon."


Tim, I am surprised that you would place a value much less a lesser value on God's Word being preached. Bro. Steve was preaching from God's Word today and whether you value the presenter or not, you should never devalue that which is invaluable to His children.

Anonymous said...

I love my church said...
For the record, in the 9:30 service there was an attempted standing ovation when SG stood and began walking toward the podium (right after Lalania's song). I watched a group stand to my left. They were definitely not standing for Lalania because they waited too long. They were definitely standing for the pastor. A small percentage of those toward the front stood for him. The majority kept their seats. At best the standing ovation was a bust.


For the record, the ovation was for the special music.

--Mike

Anonymous said...

Mike,

Hey, Jamie has a great stage presence. My friends who have worked as entertainers on cruise ships would appreciate Jamie's style.

I won't elaborate any farther because it isn't necessary nor helpful, so you can give up picking a fight with me.

And who doesn't love those adorable dimples!

Anonymous said...

JMO,

That's probably the best thing I've seen you post yet!

Anonymous said...

IWasThere said...
Yeah... come on Mike!

Loosen up! What could be more fun that hurling insults at your pastor or the minister of music?

Give it a try! It is a hoot!


Well, all right.

Hey, Jamie! You're, um... not as tall as I am!

No, that's no good--let me switch gears.

Hey, Pastor Gaines! You're, uh... roughly as tall as I am!

See? I'm no good at it.

--Mike

Anonymous said...

Quote: "Tim, I am surprised that you would place a value much less a lesser value on God's Word being preached. Bro. Steve was preaching from God's Word today and whether you value the presenter or not, you should never devalue that which is invaluable to His children."

My prayer is that the pastor did not preach the outline I saw from online yesterday. If he did, he left out a large part of the pure gospel by the verses he published in the outline. It is my prayer that everyone there will go home and read through each book of the Bible where the pastor only provided 1 or 2 verses. Read each one in context.

Anyone can take random verses from many places in scripture to fit a premise. A 'New Beginning' requires sanctification which is a very hard process. We are required to become more holy. According to the outline, much was left out. I posted on this last night in the last thread with specifics from Micah where the pastor refers to one verse at the end of Micah! And with Jeremiah, where he leaves out a very important verse that changes the whole context of verse 11. Scary stuff.

allofgrace: "The fact that particular sins keep coming to mind in a person is not necessarily the work of the devil".

Very true. God only chastizes those who are His. It would be horrible not to test the spirits. If it is the Holy Spirit convicting us but we blow it off as only satan, as taught in the outline, we cannot grow in holiness.

Folks, this is serious stuff. I am hoping he did not use the outline that was presented. Please be Bereans.

Anonymous said...

allofgrace said...
"imaresistor,
no offense taken...just trying to keep the issues from being clouded by possibilities."

Understand...and it gets old after a while doesn't it!

I yearn for the days of yesteryear when we all went to Sunday School at 9:45 and church at 11:00, came home and ate Mom's pot roast! When we all gave thanks for being able to worship in this wonderful country and troubles were few. Or did I dream all of that? :)

I love my church said...

Mike Bratton said...
I love my church said...
For the record, in the 9:30 service there was an attempted standing ovation when SG stood and began walking toward the podium (right after Lalania's song). I watched a group stand to my left. They were definitely not standing for Lalania because they waited too long. They were definitely standing for the pastor. A small percentage of those toward the front stood for him. The majority kept their seats. At best the standing ovation was a bust.

For the record, the ovation was for the special music.

--Mike


Not those I am referring to. They specifically waited until Lalania was long finished to stand. There was no ambiguity about it. They were clapping and standing for SG. Several around me discussed this exact point after the service. Sorry to disagree with you.

Anonymous said...

lucy said...
Mike,

Hey, Jamie has a great stage presence. My friends who have worked as entertainers on cruise ships would appreciate Jamie's style.

I won't elaborate any farther because it isn't necessary nor helpful, so you can give up picking a fight with me.

And who doesn't love those adorable dimples!


If and when I ever feel the need to "pick a fight," it will be beyond obvious. What I did, Lucy, was ask you a simple question. Since you haven't answered it, it's my enthusiastic hope that you have reconsidered chiming in with the mockery.

Although left-handed compliments about "style" and "dimples" tend to dampen my enthusiasm...

--Mike

I love my church said...

Yes, he used the outline previously posted and discussed.

Anonymous said...

I love my church said...

Not those I am referring to. They specifically waited until Lalania was long finished to stand. There was no ambiguity about it. They were clapping and standing for SG. Several around me discussed this exact point after the service. Sorry to disagree with you.


It isn't a matter of agreeing or disagreeing. Unless you're in the choir, you didn't have the full view of the congregation.

The quasi-standing ovation began as the song concluded, by some folks sitting down close (and some folks further back simultaneously) on the stage-right side of the worship center. It moved from stage right to stage left, largely limited to the front sections, and when it didn't achieve "critical standing-ovation mass," the people took their seats.

To paraphrase Freud, sometimes a quasi-standing ovation is just a quasi-standing ovation. :)

--Mike

Tim said...

Are there any that would be in agreement that the context of Scripture is important?

Since Mike Bratton and JMO have chose to chime in perhaps they would like to answer.

I love my church said...

I believe we should leave Jamie out of all of the discussions. Jamie has plenty of talent and I like him. He has a big title, but he can do nothing to reign in Steve Gaines or the other leaders. I may disagree with his philosophy of worship, yet I don't think we should vilify him. I would love to have a civil discussion with him about his philosophy. There is no reason for it to be anything other than an exchange of ideas between brothers. No one has ever told me one thing that made me think he has compromised his integrity. So, even though I don't love the change of direction of our music program, we would have virtually no conflict at BBC if that was the biggest problem we have.

This fight is not about music. It never has been and it never will be.

I love my church said...

Mike,

We must agree to disagree. There was a group seated behind Donna Gaines who intentionally stood. I was right behind them and I KNOW what I am talking about. They definitely stood for the pastor then they sheepishly looked around and sat down. I promise you it happened.

Anonymous said...

I have just read the posted remarks by tlineman33. I think he makes it very clear who he is and what he stands for. His judgements and false accusations of attributing sg's works to Mark Sharp is what we can expect from the enemies of God. Who is the liar and his children? We are told who they are.

Has Bellevue become the new gistappo? It has beyond a shadow of doubt with these actions.

Look at the works of these men and compare them with the truth of God's Word.

Look at the threats of sg and Belleuve leadership and ss teachers. They are the exact opposite of children of God. Right before our eyes and ears they threaten and hate monger.

NEVER have they heard one unkind word from Mark Sharps mouth and to say so is to lie and gossip monger.

It reminds me of the communist party when they wanted people to believe their party line they just lied and said; that's the turth.

The evil and wickedness from the bellevue leadership is extremely firghtening. Why? Becauses they have by their own sins and cover ups and lies and deceits and bullying torn down a church, (not of Adrian Rogers as they have said) but of Jesus Christ, and then blamed those who have not kept silent about their deeds.

If it is true, the abominable thing that teacher did with the photo of Mark Sharp, then I sit and wait to see how the Lord will defend Mark Sharp against this attack. God has made a promise: vengence IS MINE, says the Lord. I WILL REPAY.

So, we can watch and wait.

If for no other reason, I wanted to know truth from error, all I would have to do is to look at the character of Mark Sharp and Dr. Spradlin verses the character of sg and his henchmen. That tells the entire story in a nut shell.

One of the best things Bellevue could do for itself is to get rid of these zealots without conscience or morals fighting for the status quo. It is truely causing the leadership to sink deeper into trouble. They have enough troubles without these thugs doing their bidding.

Anonymous said...

Lindon, did you attend this morning's worship service at Bellevue at 9:30 or 11 a.m., or did you listen to Bro. Steve's sermon via internet feed?

Anonymous said...

Mike

As far as the two options..he HAD to have done one or the other..think about it...

HE either warned his children or he didnt'...

What else can you say?

He either did ONE or THE OTHER...

what other options could there be?????

HE did 1 or he did 2

PERIOD

Tim said...

Tim said...
Are there any that would be in agreement that the context of Scripture is important?

Since Mike Bratton and JMO have chose to chime in perhaps they would like to answer.

2:52 PM, January 07, 2007

Over 10 Minutes gone and no response. So I will have to assume that both of you (MB or JMO) would prefer not to answer this.

Anonymous said...

quote: "Lindon, did you attend this morning's worship service at Bellevue at 9:30 or 11 a.m., or did you listen to Bro. Steve's sermon via internet feed? "

I am strictly going by the outline.

If he delivered each verse in context, you would still be at church. :o)

Anonymous said...

Tim, you didn't address your question to me, but I'll be glad to weigh in with a vote. The context of Scripture is vitally important.

Anonymous said...

Rod Almondmartanti said...

...

Has Bellevue become the new gistappo? It has beyond a shadow of doubt with these actions.

...

Look at the threats of sg and Belleuve leadership and ss teachers. They are the exact opposite of children of God. Right before our eyes and ears they threaten and hate monger.


Never met you Rod, that I know of, and I don't know you. Nevertheless, I tell you out of Christian love and compassion that making declarations about who are and aren't Christians is a horrible idea--just as it's a horrible idea to compare Bellevue's staff and leadership to the Gestapo.

People, I had hoped that the level of discourse on your end would've improved after the New Year began, but I'm concerned that old habits are dying hard. Yet the same old personal insults are here, just as the same old Nazi references.

There are legitimate issues that need to be discussed, particularly after next Monday's report is issued from Bellevue. Don't let name-calling and bitterness cashier you out of the discussion.

--Mike

Tim said...

mjm,

Ok good enough so

Psalms 14:1
1 ...There is no God...


Although certainly Biblical has an entirely different meaning than,

Psalms 14:1
1 The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God. They are corrupt,
they have done abominable works,
there is none that doeth good.

Would you agree with that as well?

allofgrace said...

tim,
both context and exegesis of the text are important..example: Martin Lloyd-Jones once preached 6 straight weeks on 2 verses in Ephesians.

Anonymous said...

From the perspective of one who was actually in the worship service this morning and actually had the privilege of hearing the sermon, and not only filling in the blanks on the provided outline but taking additional copious notes (as I did last week with Dr. Jernigan's message) -- it was a great sermon. Since I have been home I have looked up all the cited text, and in my opinion, I saw nothing in Bro. Steve's use of Scripture that was out of context.

He preached a message "God had laid on his heart," it challenged me spiritually from the standpoint of a) asking God to help me be more accepting of His forgiveness and to be more discerning when Satan hurls condemnation my way, b) I have studied the cited Scriptures in depth since I've been home -- I have NOT taken anyone's word for what verse proves what, c) and the pastor's admonition that we focus on JESUS was perhaps the most needed point of all.

What is there with which to disagree unless disagreeing with God's Word? There was no misapplication of its truth.

Tim said...

allofgrace,

Exactly! I had really wanted to address the "concern" of a couple of people that had the idea that it was improper to point out errancy in the sermon preached today. The point that I am coming to is that taking Scripture out of context is nothing short of heresey. I believe that the church should hold a preacher accountable to preach the Word and not his ideas.

Anonymous said...

Tim said...
Tim said...
Are there any that would be in agreement that the context of Scripture is important?

Since Mike Bratton and JMO have chose to chime in perhaps they would like to answer.

2:52 PM, January 07, 2007

Over 10 Minutes gone and no response. So I will have to assume that both of you (MB or JMO) would prefer not to answer this.

3:10 PM, January 07, 2007


Horror of horrors, I don't sit and stare at a single site (much less sit and stare at my computer) on a Sunday afternoon.

Over ten minutes and no response?!? Call 911!

Tim, you didn't start out wanting to dispassionately discuss Scriptural context and sermon preparation, so the 180 you're doing really is disconcerting. You started out wanting to throw brickbats at Steve Gaines--which pretty much leaves heavy theological discourse out in the cold.

Or, today, "out in the mild."

If you'd like to repent of your previous bomb-toss, we might be able to have a serious discussion. Of course, you'll have to respond in thirty seconds, or I'll know you have cooties... :D

--Mike

Anonymous said...

Quote: "There are legitimate issues that need to be discussed, particularly after next Monday's report is issued from Bellevue. Don't let name-calling and bitterness cashier you out of the discussion."

Mr. Bratton, Had your church handled this situation scripturally(1 Corinthians), there would be no need for this blog.

That last sentence is illuminating: Who gets to decide who is part of the 'discussion'?

Please, I beg everyone reading here to be Bereans.

Tim said...

MJM,

So you are in agreement that,

Phillipians 3:13
13 Brethren, I count not myself to have apprehended: but this one thing I do, forgetting those things which are behind, and reaching forth unto those things which are before

is in agreement with:
2. Forget Your Past (Philippians 3:13a).
A. The Devil Reminds You of and Reprimands You for Past Failures.
B. The Lord Redeems and Releases You from Past Failures.
(1) He Forgives Your Sins.
(2) He Cleanses Your Sins.
(3) He Erases Your Sins.
(4) He Removes Your Sins.
(5) He Passes Over Your Sins.
(6) He Covers Your Sins.
(7) He Forgets Your Sins.
“Let Your Past be Past – at Last!”

Anonymous said...

Bratton: There is a difference between who is and who is not a Christian, vs who acts like a Christian and who does not act like a Christian. FYI a Christian can act like he is not a Christian. Stop, as you are so fond of saying, putting words into my mouth. For you to think for one second it is ok for a ss teacher to put up a photo of Mark Sharp and say those wicked things about him and mark him out is beyond the pale.

O, but thzt's ok. What isn't ok is for me to tell you it is wicked and not Christian behavior. What a truth spinner you are and trouble maker and your sarcasm is sickening.

Yes, I'm angry at you and your ilk who mock the problems by your sarcastic retorts and twist the truth. You take what is ligitimate and twist it to suit your game. You have self appointed yourself to represent what is God's place alone.

Anonymous said...

fedupatbbc said...
Mike

As far as the two options..he HAD to have done one or the other..think about it...

HE either warned his children or he didnt'...

What else can you say?

He either did ONE or THE OTHER...

what other options could there be?????

HE did 1 or he did 2

PERIOD


Have you stopped robbing convenience stores?

Think about it--either 1) you're still robbing convenience stores, or 2) you're not still robbing them.

And as for what other options Pastor Gaines had available, perhaps you should ask him?

--Mike

Anonymous said...

Tim, did you hear the sermon?

Anonymous said...

If you use the tactics of the gstappo, of strong arm and allow only one sine to be heard, if you villify those who don't agree with you and mark out and slander anyone you deem to be against your cause, then yes Bratton, the adjative fits. So, lf you don't like it, leave. Isn't that how it goes?

allofgrace said...

tim,
I'm a little more cautious about naming something heresy..there's error and there's heresy..sometimes it's a thin line to be sure...heresy is much more serious than error, though of course neither is desirable, and both can be dangerous..the one concern I mentioned in an earlier post, I consider error...a dangerous one...but error. Heresy would be something such as a denial of the Trinity, the divinity of Christ, etc., which would be beyond orthodox Christian belief.

New BBC Open Forum said...

Hey Mike,

I thought Harry and the CC told y'all to stay away from the blogs and websites.

NASS

Tim said...

Mike Bratton,

I had already been thru this in some detail on several occassions over the past couple of days. Since, it appears that the casual observor chooses to jump in with unfounded opinions on it, then I suppose that I will cover the topic again.

Anonymous said...

I"m going to post this again, because i feel it is important.

SG had a choice when he found out about PW regarding the safety of his and other children.

Choice A:

go home, tell your children to stay away from PW

Choice B:

say nothing to his own children

He had to have either told his children or he didn't.

If he told his children, that would mean that he chose to protect HIS children and not yours.

If he did not tell his children, that would mean that he did not care enuf to protect his own children from a pedophile, so why would it occur to him to protect yours?

It is an established FACT that he did not protect the children of BBC from PW. I am NOT going to argue that point. The very fact that he sat on it, and allowed PW to roam the halls of our church speaks for itself.

HE EITHER TOLD HIS CHILDREN, OR HE DID NOT...CHOICE A OR CHOICE B.

Mike Brattton says there are other options..tell me, MIke, please inform me, what is between telling your own kids or not telling them.

He either DID or he DID NOT.

New BBC Open Forum said...

Is anyone here in Mr. Shreve's SS class? I was just curious about this morning's lesson.

NASS

Anonymous said...

Lindon said...
Quote: "There are legitimate issues that need to be discussed, particularly after next Monday's report is issued from Bellevue. Don't let name-calling and bitterness cashier you out of the discussion."

Mr. Bratton, Had your church handled this situation scripturally(1 Corinthians), there would be no need for this blog.


Let me check... Yes, I'm on record as completely agreeing that the handling of a number of situations that have faced the Bellevue staff and leadership over the past year has been poor. When next I post at my site, that observation may (or may not) be reinforced.

That last sentence is illuminating: Who gets to decide who is part of the 'discussion'?

Good question. I would suggest, though, that Nazi references and other disparagements go a long way toward taking someone out of the running, wouldn't you agree?

--Mike

Anonymous said...

Some have asked about the worship service this morning. We attended the 9:30 service and sat in the front center section a few rows behind Josh Manning, David Brown and friends.

Perhaps Josh will post his impressions later, but believe me, extreme notice was taken of the presence of Josh and friends by not only all sitting near them, but by SG. I was in direct line behind Josh and SG's eyes locked on those rows several times.

One lady even said to me, "Do you see who is here this morning? That's Josh Manning and he's here to cause trouble." I just smiled sweetly and said, "I really doubt that".

Josh, I truly believe your presence, and that of those who sat with you and of those of us who were with you all in heart and refused to stand, caused a change in whatever was planned.

I, too, felt there was an "aborted standing O" that combined with the recognition of Lalania's beautiful solo, which was worthy of recognition. The "fans" seemed very tentative about what to do.

Perhaps I was watching too closely, but there seemed to be a slight change of program at the end. I welcome every opportunity for more prayer in any service, but I don't think I ever recall SG having another prayer in that particular place right before he calls Mark Dougharty to give the benediction.

The sermon was mediocre at best. IMO, it was more defense using scripture for justification. I made that remark to my husband on the way home and he reminded me that right now, given the climate of all the facts and allegations surrounding SG, there was virtually no sermon that could be preached that wouldn't sound defensive. I think he's right!

That's just my impression and I really think that if SG and Company don't realize that this is no "4 or 5 people causing trouble", they must be blind.

Tim said...

mjm,

Yes, I was there and I heard the sermon. It was perhaps the best delivery that Steve Gaines has ever presented.

Allofgrace,

Heresy, can also take the form of misleading a church with unsound doctrine or even mere erroneous information if it is intentionally delivered for such a purpose with full knowledge of the error.

Anonymous said...

Steve Gaines,

Did you warn your own children about PW?

If so, why would you warn your children and not the rest of the children at BBC. Do you not feel that they warrant protection?

If you did NOT warn your OWN children about PW, why didn't you?

Why in the world did you not take pedophilia seriously?

Children DESERVE to be protected. They are ENTITLED to our protection.

You have NO EXCUSE for not protecting our little sheep from the wolf.

Do you have ANY idea how devasating sexual abuse is?

If PW did not abuse anyone in the past 6 months, it won't be becuase YOU did anything to stop him.

PEDOPHILIA THRIVES IN SECRECY

Anonymous said...

REPOST:

maybejustmaybe said...
Tim, did you hear the sermon?

3:30 PM, January 07, 2007

Anonymous said...

Sorry, Tim -- you were posting as I was ... my bad.

Anonymous said...

Mike-
In order to improve the debate, what other viable and acceptable options were available to Dr. Gaines when PW first came to him?

Anonymous said...

Tim said...
MJM,

So you are in agreement that,

Phillipians 3:13
13 Brethren, I count not myself to have apprehended: but this one thing I do, forgetting those things which are behind, and reaching forth unto those things which are before

is in agreement with:
2. Forget Your Past (Philippians 3:13a).
A. The Devil Reminds You of and Reprimands You for Past Failures.
B. The Lord Redeems and Releases You from Past Failures.
(1) He Forgives Your Sins.
(2) He Cleanses Your Sins.
(3) He Erases Your Sins.
(4) He Removes Your Sins.
(5) He Passes Over Your Sins.
(6) He Covers Your Sins.
(7) He Forgets Your Sins.
“Let Your Past be Past – at Last!”

3:28 PM, January 07, 2007


Yes, I agree with it. What part of it do you disagree with?

Anonymous said...

At the prayer at SG gave after the alter call, I noticed that he motioned for Carter Threkeld to come forward to the altar. He summoned him and pointed at the altar.

I was sitting very close to the front, so I saw the entire thing unfold.

In his prayer, he prayed for those " at the altar"..Carter Threkheld did as he was TOLD and knelt down at the altar.

My point is, there would not have been anyone at the altar had SG not commanded Carter to kneel...

It was staged...I watched it unfold before my very eyes. Did anyone else notice this?

Anonymous said...

Quote: "He preached a message "God had laid on his heart,"

Didn't someone say that he plans his January sermons way in advance? Just asking.


"it challenged me spiritually from the standpoint of a) asking God to help me be more accepting of His forgiveness and to be more discerning when Satan hurls condemnation my way,"

You either believe and have faith of the sacrfice for sin or you don't. His Work was done on the cross. It is Finished. There is a great sermon by Paul Washer on the meaning of the cross I would recommend everyone hear.(google it) What you are describing here is a variation of the 'self forgiveness' heresy that is being taught all over this country. The sacrifice for sin is there, it is finished...we must work out our salvation with fear and trembling.

Not all condemnation is from Satan. Did he mention this very important fact? Quite frankly, He could have spent 3 weeks on the Jeremiah 29:11 verse in context. They had to spend 70 years in Babylon for their sin before we get to verse 11.

I say this with love: Discernment comes from scripture. PERIOD. You cannot test any spirits outside of the Word.

"b) I have studied the cited Scriptures in depth since I've been home -- I have NOT taken anyone's word for what verse proves what, c) and the pastor's admonition that we focus on JESUS was perhaps the most needed point of all."

There is no way, you could have studied all the scripture IN CONTEXT he cited in the outline since you have been home from church. You would still be reading. Even if you are Evelyn Wood! :o)

"What is there with which to disagree unless disagreeing with God's Word? There was no misapplication of its truth."

What is important is the WHOLE Counsel of God.

Paul to the Ephesian Elders in Acts 20. (please read all of Acts):


27for I did not shrink from declaring to you the whole counsel of God.

28Pay careful attention to yourselves and to all the flock, in which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers, to care for the church of God,[a] which he obtained with his own blood.[b] 29I know that after my departure fierce wolves will come in among you, not sparing the flock; 30and from among your own selves will arise men speaking twisted things, to draw away the disciples after them. 31Therefore be alert, remembering that for three years I did not cease night or day to admonish everyone with tears." ESV

MOM4 said...
This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
Anonymous said...

Steve Gaines:

Did you tell your OWN children about PW?

check one:

yes

no

Anonymous said...

allofgrace,
"The fact that particular sins keep coming to mind in a person is not necessarily the work of the devil. I've always been taught..and I believe this to be true..that the devil accuses us more in a general way...the Holy Spirit points out particular sins...calls it what it is..such as...you lied, that's stealing, etc..always pointing us to where and how we sinned. I would agree that the enemy will try to keep us defeated in a number of ways...including reminding us that we're sinners...however repeated reminders of particular sins could be 1) that the person is a Christian, and perhaps has confessed, but restitution has not been made 2) The person is lost, has a false sense of assurance, and the Holy Spirit is convicting that person. To make a blanket statement that sins coming to a person's mind is always the work of the devil, is dangerous in my view. If I'm wrong about this, then correct me."

I believe Dr. Gaines was discussing sins which we have already repented of and been forgiven of, and indeed it is the devil's work to accuse us and drag us down with past mistakes. As Dr. Richard L. Pratt writes in his book Designed for Dignity:

"Satan's deception takes many forms in the Christian life as well. We forget the glory of forgiveness and the privilige of adoption as God's children. ... Christians can lose a sense of dignity by concentrating too much on their failures. All of us need correction and encouragement to be obedient. When we stray far from Christ, we need sharp rebuke. But a steady diet of judgment and correction - "holy wormism," I call it - leaves us believing a deceptive lie. We confuse humility with self-degradation. We see ourselves as good-for-nothing, miserable, detestable worms, not as highly prized, redeemed images of the Creator."

I don't think Dr. Gaines was trying to minimize the importance of confessing our sins before God. In fact he quoted several verses about God forgiving us if we confess our sins. But he was right on by saying that we should not dwell on these mistakes.

allofgrace said...

graceupongrace,
my objection was to making a blanket statement concerning the issue..would you not agree that the 2 other possibilities are a reality?

Anonymous said...

Rod Almondmartanti said...

Bratton: There is a difference between who is and who is not a Christian, vs who acts like a Christian and who does not act like a Christian. FYI a Christian can act like he is not a Christian. Stop, as you are so fond of saying, putting words into my mouth.


Then I will quote you thusly, and like so: "Look at the threats of sg and Belleuve leadership and ss teachers. They are the exact opposite of children of God."

Since a threat cannot be a child of God, Rod (hey, that rhymed!), your statement can only mean that you consider Steve Gaines, along with Bellevue leadership and Sunday School teachers (unless "ss" was another Nazi reference?) to be "the exact opposite of children of God."

For you to think for one second it is ok for a ss teacher to put up a photo of Mark Sharp and say those wicked things about him and mark him out is beyond the pale.

Since I've done the honor of quoting you, please return the favor, would you, Rod? Where, precisely, have I condoned such behavior?

O, but thzt's ok. What isn't ok is for me to tell you it is wicked and not Christian behavior. What a truth spinner you are and trouble maker and your sarcasm is sickening.

Words you write, yet in public I know you would be far more cordial and considerate--one of the hazards of the Internet.

Yes, I'm angry at you and your ilk who mock the problems by your sarcastic retorts and twist the truth. You take what is ligitimate and twist it to suit your game. You have self appointed yourself to represent what is God's place alone.

How, exactly, is making pronouncements about who is--and who isn't--a Christian anything other than "representing what is God's place alone"?

If you use the tactics of the gstappo, of strong arm and allow only one sine to be heard, if you villify those who don't agree with you and mark out and slander anyone you deem to be against your cause, then yes Bratton, the adjative fits. So, lf you don't like it, leave. Isn't that how it goes?

That may be descriptive of how the Democrat Party conducts itself. But Rod, if you think that's an exhaustive description of how the Nazi Gestapo conducted itself, I don't know what to tell you except to Google "Gestapo" and refresh your historical memory.

--Mike

Anonymous said...

My goodness, Lindon. I guess the fact that I've been a Christian for 42 years, have taught the Bible at both the youth and adult levels, and have read the Bible through several times doesn't count for much. I also intend to continue studying it for the rest of my life ... in case that is something else you question.

I agree that the punishment for sin was taken care of at Calvary, as the pastor clearly said this morning and as you so beautifully stated in your last response. I also contend and agree that that is implicit in the meaning of Christ's words from the cross when he said, "It is finished" (in other words, that's not just a song by Bill and Gloria ...)

The argument by many on this blog for the past week or so disputes Christ's atonement for our sin as being "complete enough."

And the whole point Bro. Steve made about the devil bringing our sin up to us as a reminder was that such is done by Satan with the express purpose to defeat us concerning confessed and forgiven sin. He is the author of lies, remember? He loves to counterfeit that which is of God, including the work of the Holy Spirit in convicting us of sin that is not yet confessed. It is only the most mature and attentive believer who can be aware and discerning of the difference.

Again, I submit to you that one should have heard Bro. Steve's sermon in its entirety instead of just criticizing an outline. The Holy Spirit was there this morning and He spoke to my heart in a mighty way, and it has nothing to do with the "mess" at the church right now -- it was the personal ministry of the Holy Spirit in my heart regarding things I needed to hear. I thought I had already said that, but perhaps that point got missed.

Anonymous said...

allofgrace,
"my objection was to making a blanket statement concerning the issue..would you not agree that the 2 other possibilities are a reality?"

I addressed that question in my post:

"I believe Dr. Gaines was discussing sins which we have already repented of and been forgiven of, and indeed it is the devil's work to accuse us and drag us down with past mistakes."

In other words, no, I don't think Dr. Gaines made a blanket statement at all. He was talking about things which we have confessed and been forgiven of. I do not think having past sins brought to mind is always of the devil, but Dr. Gaines I am convinced was discussing the scenario above.

Anonymous said...

maybejustmaybe,
"And the whole point Bro. Steve made about the devil bringing our sin up to us as a reminder was that such is done by Satan with the express purpose to defeat us concerning confessed and forgiven sin. He is the author of lies, remember?"

Good words. I agree with you completely.

Koragg said...

I actually watched the 9:30 sermon online. I was listening to it as I was working on some homework for school. It was a good sermon, but I think the message got lost due all of the chaos surrounding him.

And Mike, yes, I am a trekkie :). I like Star Trek...well all but Enterprise :p

Anonymous said...

aslansown said...
Mike-
In order to improve the debate, what other viable and acceptable options were available to Dr. Gaines when PW first came to him?


From what we know of the situation, the only "viable and acceptable options" were to suspend Mr. Williams from the staff and telephone the authorities.

Immediately.

Which is why both a business meeting and a full, unvarnished report from the internal investigation is vital--because we as a congregation don't know enough of the particulars.

--Mike

blink07 said...

fedupatbbc,

Have a little respect! These are the kind of comments that should not be allowed on this site. Totally ridiculous and uncalled for. Really shows how disrespectful you are.

Anonymous said...

What difference does it make about his sermon today?

You are all missing the point.

The man allowed a pedophile to roam the halls of our church. This means that SG gave his consent.

His sermons ring hollow to me.

He belongs in jail.

Anonymous said...

jcsuit said:

Have a little respect! These are the kind of comments that should not be allowed on this site. Totally ridiculous and uncalled for. Really shows how disrespectful you are.
****

oh really?????

Why don't you explain yourself.

Anonymous said...

01-06-07

TLineman33 wrote:

I received a very interesting letter from another Bible Fellowship teacher in Bellevue. This teacher refers to Mark Sharpe as, "Demas" "Demetruius" "Alexander"
I believe if I were Mark I would have a face lift this teacher has his number and he/she has a very large class and is showing your picture. Mark is now a marked man like Cain and everywhere he goes around Memphis people will say there he is the one who destroyed Dr. Adrian Roger's integrity and years of labor all because he hated to have a new pastor overturn his power and influence at Bellevue Baptist Church. He is the man who exaggerated (lied) distorted truth, tortured a godly man, Dr. Steve Gaines all while claiming to be a Christian.

Mike Bratton said...
Some passing thoughts:

i-flyaway said...
I think Lineman33 had his wording confused:
SG is now a marked man and everywhere he goes around Memphis people will say there he is - the one who destroyed Dr. Adrian Roger's integrity and years of labor all because he hated to be open and truthful. He is the man who exaggerated (lied) distorted truth, tortured many godly people all while claiming to be a Christian.

You may not have heard this before, but those of us who are Christians don't get to make pronouncements on the salvation of another individual--whether the subject of the speculation is Mark Sharpe or Pastor Gaines.

My response: This was my feeble attempt at sarcasm. I am a Christian and in no way would I attempt to make a pronouncement on the salvation of another individual.

For the record, Adrian Rogers' integrity can never be destroyed as he was a man who lived what he preached.

Anonymous said...

Koragg said...
I actually watched the 9:30 sermon online. I was listening to it as I was working on some homework for school. It was a good sermon, but I think the message got lost due all of the chaos surrounding him.

And Mike, yes, I am a trekkie :). I like Star Trek...well all but Enterprise :p


You know Enterprise is about to crank up in reruns on Sci Fi, do you not?

And you're quite accurate in your observation. The surrounding static is working against the clear transmission of the message--which is why the static needs to be dealt with as soon as possible.

Qa'pla!

--Mike

blink07 said...

Tim,

Disrespecting not only the man of God but the message from God's Word...quite big of you!

Anonymous said...

jcsuitt:

let me tell you what is disrespectful:

ALLOWING A CONFESSED PEDOPHILE TO ROAM FREELY AMONG OUR CHILDREN.

How much respect did SG have when he allowed THAT?

How much integrity did it take for SG to allow THAT?

Don't you EVEN accuse me of being disrepectful to a man that does not deserve one iota of respect from me.

NONE!!! NADA!!!

you might feel differently if your child or grandchild, niece, nephew were molested by PW

His silence equated consent.

PEDOPHILIA THRIVES IIN SECRECY

blink07 said...

fedupatbbc,

Disrespecting Jamie is uncalled for, childish, mean-spirited and NOT in the spirit of this forum. The mean-spirit that you have displayed and quite honestly not only you but others as well should be ashamed of your actions and idle talk. You discredit anything that you might say that has credibility

Anonymous said...

jcsuitt

It is NOT idle talk to discuss how SG put our children at risk from a CONFESSED PEDOPHILE>

You are in denial.

I note that you don't mention that. Is it not a big deal to you?

Koragg said...

Sci-Fi lost its credibility when they allowed Vince McMahon to put one of his shows on the channel.

But back to the topic at hand, originally I thought a lot of this was a result of Gaines not being Dr. Rogers (Hard to follow the foot steps of a legend). I thought that there was great progress being done in resolving the issues (Fence jumping, changes being made, etc...).

Then when the Paul Williams matter came up, that was, in my estimation, the straw that broke the camels back. I understand where you are coming from Mike, but I feel at this point, leadership needs to be changed if Bellevue is to survive this situation.

allofgrace said...

graceupongrace,
I don't see that you addressed my question (the 2 other possibilities) in your post. With all due respect to Mr. Pratt, the only dignity, the only righteousness, the only thing right or good about any of us, is the dignity, the righteousness and goodness of Christ revealed in us..and that's His work, not ours. The endless search for self esteem is responsible for the lack of understanding of what grace even is, much less the magnitude of that grace extended to worthless, sinful...yes..worms..such as I...imho.

Anonymous said...

And i did not disrespect Jamie.
I like Jamie.

I only mentioned what my grandfather said.

I do not have a problem with Jamie.

If you will notice, at the bottom at that post, i also mentioned how ugly the people looked who did NOT smile.

Tim said...

MJM,

The context of Phillipians 3:13 ..forgetting those things which are behind.. is in,


Phillipians 3:4-9
4 Though I might also have confidence in the flesh. If any other man thinketh that he hath whereof he might trust in the flesh, I more:
5 circumcised the eighth day, of the stock of Israel, of the tribe of Benjamin, Rom. 11.1 a Hebrew of the Hebrews; as touching the law, a Pharisee;
6 concerning zeal, persecuting the church; touching the righteousness which is in the law, blameless.
7 But what things were gain to me, those I counted loss for Christ.
8 Yea doubtless, and I count all things but loss for the excellency of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord: for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and do count them but dung, that I may win Christ,
9 and be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith:

Steve Gaines in his sermon went on to descrip the many sins of Paul. The mistakes of Paul, the things that Paul had done wrong concerning Barnabas and John Mark.

The context of the Scripture is vastly different than what was preached. In the context of the Scripture, the things that Paul has forgot and put behind are every righteous work, deed or creed that he had to his credit. The Scripture in this case does not have any reference to putting sin behind us and pressing on in spite of it.

The context of the Scripture goes on to say:

17 Brethren, be followers together of me, and mark them which walk so as ye have us for an ensample.
18 (For many walk, of whom I have told you often, and now tell you even weeping, that they are the enemies of the cross of Christ:
19 whose end is destruction, whose God is their belly, and whose glory is in their shame, who mind earthly things.)

Paul is stating again what he has stated before, follow me as I follow Christ. He has also warned that there are many that walk and obtained followers that are in reality enemies of the Cross of Christ. He then goes onto to describe how to identify such men.

So as a question for consideration, could we say that we should follow Paul in the same manner that he followed Christ? Suppose we followed the example of Paul, what type of church would we have?

Another question for consideration, could we say that we should follow Steve Gaines in the same manner that he has followed Christ? Suppose we followed the example of Steve Gaines, what type of church would we have? And in fact is that not exactly where we are at.

Study the other scripture references in their context, read the verses before and after (at a minimum). It would be far better to read entire chapters or books of referenced scripture to gain the entire context of that scripture.

The one statement that I heard more than anything else from Dr. Rogers was this. "Don't take my word for it. Go home. Read the scriptures find out for yourself."

Early on in my time at Bellevue there were many times that I did just that because I didn't believe it, but testing the scripture myself served three purposes, one it convinced me of sin, two it convicted me of sin and three it confirmed that there was a need for repentance.

I expect that if Dr. Rogers could have taught one thing and one thing only it would have been this.

"Don't take my word for it. Go home. Read the scriptures find out for yourself."

Anonymous said...

fedupatbbc said...
jcsuitt

You are in denial.


And you have a one-note song. There are many other viable and important issues.

Anonymous said...

Maybejustmaybe

That's easy to say when you do not know first hand how devastating childhood sexual abuse is.

And your attitude is part of the problem..

Shrug of the shoulders..nothing to see here, folks, move on.

There is NOT anything more important than the fact that SG FAILED TO PROTECT HIS LITTLE INNOCENT sheep from a sexual predator.

Everything that comes out of his mouth to me now is blah blah blah, yada yada yada..

He CONSENTED to a pedophile roaming our halls.

He has lost all credibility.

Anonymous said...

Tim, thanks so much for your help with that passage. I guess Paul only had righteousness in his "past" that he needed to forget. Never mind that he also persecuted the church and called himself (post-salvation) "chief among sinners." Also never mind what God's Word says about our "righteousness." If the very best we can do (our righteousness) is no better than the rags used to bind the purulent wounds of lepers, no wonder Paul said he considered his past (all of it) as worthless, or dung.

And I will certainly take your advice on how to read contextually under advisement.

Anonymous said...

fedup,

And you are hurting your own every time you say the words "let a confessed pedophile roam the halls."

I am sorry for the abuse you suffered, but please remember you are not the only one who knows this particular pain personally.

Anonymous said...

fedupatbbc
You are soooooo right the protection of our children from these animals is THE most important issue..

Anonymous said...

maybejustmaybe

" let a confessed pedophile roam the halls"

ISN"T THIS WHAT HE DID???????

If not, please explain

Anonymous said...

MOM4 said...
Oh Mikie B,
There you go again, doing what you do best. What happened to your irk over the sins that have beset BBC?


I'm patient. Since there is a report forthcoming, I will wait to see it.

Am I not irked enough? :)

Let me respond to your responses to my posts.

1. RE the FAST - I will do as I said I would do. It is not for you to question the Lord's leading in that aspect of my life. However, it is YOUR choice in posting your diatribes on this blog when you have your own blog to post your rants and critizisms against us, or is coming here the Lord's leading in your life?


Since I never addressed fasting, your remarks don't really match up. And yes, I do come here as I feel led of the Lord to do so.

2. My observations and opinions of Jamie Parker's style are just that, MY observations and MY opinions, which I have every right to do.

No, actually, you don't.

Have the right to mock people, that is--particularly since you are interested in following the Lord's leading in your life.

Since you do not feel the same way, you can begin your praisesong by posting your little heart out on your personal blog.

If you can't defend a statement you make, perhaps you should reconsider making such statements in the future?

3. As far as whether I watch BBC online, TV or attend, that is between me and the Lord, and none of your business.

As I said earlier, people who lead in worship do not do so to facilitate anonymous mockery. If you access Bellevue's worship services live, via television, or over the Internet, you must do so for purposes of worship, not to jeer and snicker.

I have never critized any of your performances, your blog or your attendance or lack thereof for any reason. I don't interfere in your affairs, keep your nose out of mine.

Again we see an example of smack-talk from someone who would, no doubt, be anything but confrontational in public.

You folks have really got to reconsider the use of pseudonyms. (Except for Koragg the Klingon poster--his is a marvelous, honorable name.) And for the record, whoever you are, when you decided to mock my friend in public, you included me in your "business."

--Mike

Anonymous said...

"graceupongrace,
I don't see that you addressed my question (the 2 other possibilities) in your post. With all due respect to Mr. Pratt, the only dignity, the only righteousness, the only thing right or good about any of us, is the dignity, the righteousness and goodness of Christ revealed in us..and that's His work, not ours. The endless search for self esteem is responsible for the lack of understanding of what grace even is, much less the magnitude of that grace extended to worthless, sinful...yes..worms..such as I...imho."

The possibilities were addressed; go back and read the post carefully. And *Dr. Pratt is talking about the dignity that comes from being in made in the image of God. God made man out of dirt, but he also was the one who gave life to him and he is more special than the rest of the creation. This is what he refers to by dignity, being made in the image of God.

And while in one sense we are "worms" before we become Christians, in another sense, no, even non-Christians are not worms. We are created in the image of God, unlike worms. As Dr. Schaeffer has said, we are NOT a zero. While we are cruel, we also have nobility that comes from being created in the image of God. See his discussion about the "mannishness" of man.

Anonymous said...

fedupatbbc said...
maybejustmaybe

" let a confessed pedophile roam the halls"

ISN"T THIS WHAT HE DID???????

If not, please explain

4:33 PM, January 07, 2007


The investigations will explain. Do you know something factual that will not be revealed by the authorities?

Tim said...

mjm,

Choosing to ignore the sarcasm and refrain from responding to it.

If you fail to see the immediate contextual reference that Paul was making then so be it.

If you chose to associate the context with other New Testament Scripture then you must be completely unaware that most New Testament writings were not copied and distributed to all churchs at the time of there writting. The only writing that they quite possibly may have had was this one. Therefore the necessity of keeping Scripture in context.

Anonymous said...

mjm
Your comments were very insensitive to Fedup, And I might add myself and other parents who worry about that molester roaming the halls of Bellevue.You cavalierly have dismissed her concerns for her children and for that fact those of us who want to protect them as being a side issue that is as you say And you have a one-note song. There are many other viable and important issues.
What are the other viable issues that are so much more important than the protection of pour children?



4:30 PM, January 07, 2007

Anonymous said...

Your interpretation of Paul's contextual meaning is subjective, Tim. I choose to believe when Paul said he was "forgetting the past," he meant his whole past. You choose to believe he means only the righteous part. Let's agree to disagree and move on. No one has a corner on this one.

allofgrace said...

graceupongrace,
I wanted your answer to the 2 possibilities I raised, which I still don't see your answer in your post...it's really a yes i agree or no I don't agree answer...I can go to Mr. Pratt or Mr. Shaeffer if I want what they think...I was hoping to get your response...another time perhaps.

Anonymous said...

trucker,

The practice of applying double standards is the first one that comes to mind.

Jumping to conclusions and accepting rumor as fact is another.

Then some we all probably agree on, namely, the need for updated bylaws, transparency, and open discussion of issues in a business meeting.

I am a parent. I am not in fear for my child's safety at Bellevue, nor have I ever been. Those who are afraid for theirs are entitled to their fears just as I am entitled to the absence of mine.

I did not intend to appear dismissive of fedup's pain as an abuse victim. Many have shared their stories, and they are all heartbreaking. No one has said otherwise, nor would they.

Anonymous said...

trucker

Thank you.

Anonymous said...

Allofgrace,
My response was yes, I agree what you said is true, but no, I do not think Dr. Gaines was ignoring those or was being dangerous in any stretch of the imagination. He was talking about Satan bringing up sins which have already been confessed and restituted. I am not sure what was hard about my response earlier, but hopefully this helps.

Tim said...

maybejustmaybe said...
Your interpretation of Paul's contextual meaning is subjective, Tim. I choose to believe when Paul said he was "forgetting the past," he meant his whole past. You choose to believe he means only the righteous part. Let's agree to disagree and move on. No one has a corner on this one.


Reply:

Subjective implying that by reading the context and placing Scripture within the context of its writing. The immediate context was concerning the righteousness which he had forsaken and counted as loss.

So it appears that you are reversing your statement that you believe that Scripture should be taken in context?

Ok..I agree that we should disagree.

MOM4 said...

mike said...
"when you decided to mock my friend in public, you included me in your "business.""

I did not mock Jamie Parker, it may have been jest, but not mockery. And if he (and SG) had not already made a mockery of the music ministry, it would not be an issue being discussed and it IS being discussed. People from all over the country have talked about how degraded our music ministry has become in comparison to what we had prior to Jaime taking over. My own teens say it is "high schoolish".

I am offline for a while, you rile my anger and that is of the devil.

I know NASS, don't feed the trolls. Sorry, I will stop now.

Anonymous said...

MJM,

Paul Williams aside...we all need to be very concerned for our children's safety at BBC.

It is a big building, and anything can happen there. Think about it.

When children go into the bathroom alone, during a service, how do you know they are safe? Anyone can enter the building and be lurking in there..the same as an office building or at the mall.

Just becuase it is a church does not mean that your children are safe, sadly.

It is the day and age we live in.

We are charged with the protection and safety of our children. Regardless of where that might be.

I don't know how old your chlldren are, but please, for their sake, don't just assume they are safe just because it's church.

Anonymous said...

Tim, Scripture should be taken in context.

No, I do not agree that it has to be Context According to Tim.

Amazing.

WOUNDEDANDBLEEDING said...

Greetings to you in most holy name of Jesus, who is my salvation!

Brother Mark Sharpe you are a beautiful part of our Spiritual family and we thank GOD for your willingness to die for the TRUTH of CHRIST JESUS without hesitation.

What joy it gives us to know that you do not care about your own reputation but that you would in fact volunteer to be cursed by men for CHRIST`s cause!

Brother Charles and I are ever so grateful that you are committed to following the scripturual commands of our dear LORD and SAVIOUR no matter what men say or do to you!

It is truly wonderful to know that you are not ashamed of the gospel of JESUS CHRIST and that you will continue to do as the LORD bids you to do reguardless of what other`s may surmiZe about you, your intentions, motives, or actions.

Rembering that JESUS was crucified for walking out HIS FATHER`s will and knowing that those who follow in HIS footsteps must also be willing to be crucified for HIS NAME SAKE, we count it an honor to know one who who is part of saintly few.

So Brother Mark, It is with great joy that Brother Charles and I travel right along beside JESUS with you though we all be together slain for the Glory of GOD alone!

Be of good courage dear brother and Keep the Faith!

Under HIS wings and in HIS love,

Brother Charles and Sister Pam Gremillion

Anonymous said...

Fedup, my child doesn't go to the bathroom alone. She's 2. But I agree with you regarding the need to exercise wisdom and caution in the day and age in which we live.

BR said...

fedup said....
"My friend wanted to go to winter camp as a chaperone with her 8th grade daughter. She refused to sign the pledge to SG..She was told by Jason Pyron that she would have to go and talk to guess who?
PAUL WILLIAMS.

This was in November."

WHAT! A pledge to SG....by a chaperone???

Why was that a requirement???

WHY WAS PAUL WILLIAMS EVEN INVOLVED WITH THE 8TH GRADE CHILDREN - AT ALL???


Folks, This is a serious issue and if the church leadership thinks they can smooze this past the DA, and DPS, they are sorely mistaken, no matter how many of the congregation they "convince".

Anonymous said...

To Mark Sharpe:

I concur with Sister Pam and Brother Charles.

She said it better than I could..

Tim said...

maybejustmaybe said...
Tim, Scripture should be taken in context.

No, I do not agree that it has to be Context According to Tim.

Amazing.

4:56 PM, January 07, 2007

Reply:

Once again refusing to be drawn in by the sarcasm.

I believe that the context of Philipians 3:10-13 can clearly be seen in Philipians 3:1-9. I suppose if you see that as my interpretation then your disagreement is not with me, but perhaps with the Bible itself.

Anonymous said...

Tim said ...
I suppose if you see that as my interpretation then your disagreement is not with me, but perhaps with the Bible itself.

5:00 PM, January 07, 2007


Thanks, Tim. So much.

Anonymous said...

BR

Before my friend could go to winter camp, she was told that she would have to sign a form that said that she 'supported' sg and blah blah blah..I saw the form with my own two eyes. It was sorta what has been described to me like the deacons were asked to sign.

Now keep in mind that this was in November, and we did not know anything about PW and his agregious acts at that time. She showed me the form, sitting in the fellowship hall, and we both thought how stupid it was.

This happened either at the end of November, or the very first week in December.

And then the story broke. She ended up going to winter camp, but she did not have to sign the form, for obvious reasons.

As far as what he was doing with the 8th grade, I don't think that is the issue. I think that he was just in charge of volunteers for youth, for judging their " fitness" which in itself is sick sick sick.

I will talk to my friend and see if she will post her story on here.she lurks alot :) but has not posted.

WOUNDEDANDBLEEDING said...

Greetings to all our dear brothers and sisters in the LORD!

The Sea of Forgetfullness is full of my sins and yours but take heed dear ones, there is no SEA of Forgetfullness for anyone`s unrepented sin.

Under HIS wings and in HIS love,
Sister Pam

Anonymous said...

BR said
Folks, This is a serious issue and if the church leadership thinks they can smooze this past the DA, and DPS, they are sorely mistaken, no matter how many of the congregation they "convince".

5:00 PM, January 07, 2007

In November, huh this was after the focus groups got together to protect our children!!!!!!

Anonymous said...

Let me expand on that, Tim. In one short afternoon (actually about 2 short hours) you have condescendingly instructed me on the proper context and meaning of a passage of Scripture that I had already clearly stated I had read, then progressed to berating me for what the Holy Spirit revealed to me about the truth of that passage during both the pastor's sermon AND my subsequent private Bible study at home. Then you disregarded the fact that I said I had studied it at home already by telling me that I should do just that ... and when I extended the olive branch of "agreeing to disagree," you insulted me further by telling me that I don't disagree with you, but with the Bible itself.

Let me make this perfectly clear. There is no sarcasm implied or intended. There is no point in attempting to have civil discourse about Scriptural or any other matters with someone who insists that there are two opinions on the given subject -- theirs and the wrong one. I actually had given you a little more credit than that from your history here, but I suspect now that was misplaced. Your insistence on dissecting and discrediting Bro. Steve's sermon based on his outline and before he even delivered it are more telling about your motives than I thought.

Anonymous said...

(offline)

Anonymous said...

maybejustmaybe said...
trucker,

The practice of applying double standards is the first one that comes to mind.

Sorry but I believe my childs safety overrides concerns over double standards.Do you agree?

Jumping to conclusions and accepting rumor as fact is another.

If PW is a rumor why the investigation by the DA and DCS???Why did SG bother to give him a paid vacation with no end in sight?
Any investigation by these guys is a warning that I need to be extra vigilant about the safety of my children,And lets not forget that SNAP in involved in this

Anonymous said...

maybejustmaybe

I have a 15y/o son, who, up until now, has stayed late on wednesdays to help take stuff down and put stuff away, and is in every nook and cranny of that church, just trying to help the adults.

I am VERY concerned for his safety now. I'm wasn't before, but i am now. I suppose that I should have been all along.

My first thought when this story broke was, ' was he around PW' ever.

Since your child is 2, you did not have to go thru that thought process. You know where your child is every minute he/she is away from you in that church.

If y ou look at the stories of abuse coming out of the catholic church, many are boys about my son's age. This terrifies me.

It never occured to me, in a million years, that the leadership at BBC would allow this to go on, unchecked. But apparently, after reading and researching for these last few weeks, it's a BIG problem in the SBC.

Knowing that PW was allowed to participate in the bible drill memory awards was especially sickening. Why was he allowed to be around kids? My son is so friendly, and will talk to anyone..will run any errand he is asked...he is so eager to be helpful..would this make him a target for a pedophile?

How is this situation with PW any different than what we heard about in the catholic church? Sadly, it's not. But when that story came out, I have to admit, that i was so smug.." well, i'm glad that WE dont' have THAT problem"

How prideful i was!!!

I saw bumper stickers on cars that said, " we support our priests", and i felt then like i feel now about SG. But of course, in my own mind..i KNEW that WE would never be faced with anything like that..After all, WE are Baptists, and what's more, WE are SBC!!

How very very foolish and naive I was! I'm ashamed of myself.

Tim said...

mjm,

I suppose that if anyone could prove that Phillipians 3:1-9 do not immediately precede Phillipians 3:10-13 then I would have to admit my error.

Sorry, it is not about my way or your way. It is the way that God chose that His Word be inspired and recorded.

God has already been extremely narrow in his ways and I am excepting of that.

Anonymous said...

Fedup, you may find this hard to believe, but in a very small church we attended before coming to Bellevue, my then-teenage daughter was caught more than once having ... um ... "moral failures" with the youth minister's son in an upstairs closet. Not one of my proudest moments as a parent, I assure you. I thought at the time she was helping in the nursery or going to the restroom. Church, with all its nooks and crannies, has NEVER been a "safe" place when it comes to our children. I think we've ALL had a wakeup call, wouldn't you agree?

Anonymous said...

Maybe just maybe

Dr. Rogers taught us to look at context and not leave ourselves open to everyone's interpretation of scripture. He encouraged us to check HIM.

I think this is what Tim is doing.

This should reveal Tim's desire to do what Dr. Rogers always taught us to do in order to protect ourselves from false teaching.

Somewhat like the costitution that some judges call a living and breathing document so they can twist it to support abortion rights.

The Bible and the constitution mean what they mean but only one is the word of God so I would tend to think that calls for a more careful study and handling of it.

MOM4 said...

Tim,
In my research, I have found notes from a sermon Dr Rogers preached on Phil 3:13. That specific verse relates back to Phil 2:12 in context with "working out your own salvation" in that the Greek references a process as in "working down to a point of completion". Paul refers to salvation here as in Phil 3:13 as an ongoing process thru which we grow and develop in faith. In other words, this is a process where by we grow by setting each days labors behind us as a foundation whereby we grow in faith.

Anonymous said...

I"m looking for a job like PW has..anyone know where i can apply?

Sleep late, chat on line..go shopping, talk on phone..lunch with friends....

AND GET PAID!!!!!!

WOUNDEDANDBLEEDING said...

Loving greetings to you once more in Jesus` name!

Some admonish me to forget my past but let me share my tender thoughts with you today.

Brothers and Sisters. If I were to forget my past, I might forget
how much I need my Saviour!

Looking back into the valleys of my life and remembering the LORD`s deliverance for me helps me to know how far the LORD has taken me!

Reviewing my life often encourages me and increases my faith.

If the apostle Paul forgot his past, I would never know the depths of Paul`s conversion!

If Peter did not look back at his past, he would never remember what it meant for the cock to crow thrice!

The Bible would never exist if we did not look back into history to see how the those whom the LORD highlighted lived their lives for the good and the bad.

If it were not for the broken glass of my own past, I would have no personal testimony for the Saving Grace of Christ Jesus.

The LORD did not call me to have amnesia dear ones, but rather that I would share all the things HE has done for me and through me and in spite of me, by being open and transparent with my own sin with those whom he brings my way to listen.

I feel it my spiritual duty to share my testimony about my own sinful life with others, so that I can testify about the goodness and mercy and grace of the LORD JESUS CHRIST.

Where there is no evidence of change, there is no testimony of a changed life, so I must remember my past in a way that brings GLORY to GOD and reaches forward as I go.

I will not dwell in the guilt of my past sins but I must remember them as stepping stones that have brought me into a deeper walk with JESUS.

No matter who teaches you to forget, remember JESUS reminded many of their past as HE ministered to them, do likewise my dear brethren!

Under HIS wings and in HIS love,
Sister Pam

Anonymous said...
This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
Anonymous said...

MJM,

I'm sorry about your daughter, we can bring them up right and they still make their own choices.

Yes, I have been brought out of my naivite'.

But now the question is..do i follow him around at church? Do i not allow him to do his volunteer work?

I don't know the answer to those questions.

Anonymous said...

WOUNDEDANDBLEEDING
Great points,I remember that old axiom that went somthing like this "he who forgets history is doomed to repeat it".I never want to forget my sins ,the shame of rembering them is often what keeps me away from them.
You are right a sign that one has truely repented is a change in direction from those sins.

Anonymous said...

maybejustmaybe.

Calm down. Tim has been very civil and ordered in his words to you. He is simply trying to help you understand how he came to his conclusion.

Simply, it makes no sense that Paul would have referred to something he didn't immediately write and have you ignore what he had just written.

In our language today, conversations build most significantly and logically on what was most recently said. Certainly we are to take in the all available information but not at the expense of refusing the most obvious relevant and recent statement.

Please, for your sake, consider this.

Andrew

Anonymous said...

Fedup,

I think accountability ... for us as parents to our kids, for them as kids to us, all-around accountability between youth workers, children's workers, volunteers, kids, parents, and ministers. My prayer is that that is one of the positive things that will come out of all this. And that, my dear sister in the Lord, is true protection of our children.

And let's not forget the faith that it takes to be parents in 2007. I know it's always taken a lot of faith, but it certainly seems like the "days are evil" in a much more sinister way now than ever before.

But then, abuse and all of the sin that thrives in secrecy has been around all along, has it not?

We were discussing this issue at work the other day. I'd be interested in your opinion (and will take it as such). Is there more child sexual abuse now than ever before? Or do we just HEAR about it more now? And if there is more now, why do you think it is increasing? Your thoughts?

Tim said...

mjm and others that have read,

To sum up the reasoning behind the discourse concerning this sermon.

It has never been my intent to convey myself as a spiritual authority. I have no credentials do such a thing. None.

This is perhaps what has been so disheartening to me. For over 20 years, I sat under Dr. Rogers. I studied many of his sermons with the same intensity and some of them with much more intensity and never came away with the idea that I or anyone else had been misled.

For 20 years before that I sat under other pastors. I studied many of those sermons with great intensity and not once came away with the idea that I or anyone else had been misled.

As a layman of the church, I would expect and should expect that the senior pastor of a church with the reputation and size of Bellevue present a message that is Scripturally based and Scripturally sound. Many months ago I had commented to my wife after another sermon that it should not be that a layman feel that he need to address his pastor over incorrect docrinal issues. I still believe that it should not be this way.

However, when a message is verified against the Word and found to be misleading, it is imperative that it be addressed. If this vilifies me because something was wrong and I chose to address it then I am villified. I can only speak what I have seen and heard.

MOM4 said...

Tim,
Thank you for your diligence. If it were not for you and those like you who recognize error and are not afraid to confront it, those who preach and practice error would continue to lead the blind right off the cliff.
On another note, have you or anyone else here seen the DVD of Dr Rogers' 75th birthday celebration. It is ironic that it has excerpts of his teachings of what NOT to do as a pastor. Speaking of which, Steve Gaines was front and center and even spoke words that went overboard on how much he revered and honored his mentor. What a contrast to his behavior!

Tim said...

MJM,

I had no intention of offending you. Sincerely, I did not. My intentions were only to speak of something that I saw as wrong.

Anonymous said...

Wounded said: "The Sea of Forgetfulness is full of my sins and yours but take heed dear ones, there is no Sea of Forgetfulness for anyone`s unrepented sin."

Sister Pam, This is true for so many things. Thank you for this thoughtful and thought-provoking post.

Anonymous said...

DAVID BROWN

THANK YOU for being with us today. Don't go away. This "investigation" might yield an attempt to backtrack and cover up the facts as they were.

Anonymous said...

Fed up

Does it worry you when many have come on this blog and said "wait until the investigation is done" as though it will change the facts?

David Coombs admitted to David Brown that child molestation did occur (even if he misrepresented the time frame of the discovery).

If this was not already substantiated,I doubt David Brown and others would be wasting their time.

Why do I get the idea that they intend to chage what we already
know?

It makes me wonder what Steve Gaines was going to say but didn't because David Brown was there?

Anonymous said...

Piglet said: "The Bible and the constitution mean what they mean but only one is the word of God so I would tend to think that calls for a more careful study and handling of it."

Very well said, Piglet. And there's the rub, isn't it? As a society, we've become so busy that maybe many of us haven't studied our Bible like we should have. We have relied on our pastors to give us a "Reader's Digest Condensed Version." Guess what? That's not what we are supposed to do...it's not working. I really appreciate your point and if nothing else, as fedup stated, we've ALL been given a huge wake-up call.

Anonymous said...

Fed up

And let me add (I hope you're still out there..):

Since the molestation has been substantiated there is NO reason to have kept PW on staff and NO reason to give him paid leave.

I believe the current investigation would be to see how many ADDITIONAL victims there might be.

Anonymous said...

Piglet

Oh my...i'm sitting here contemplating your questions ( that doens't mean i am in contemplative prayer :) )

Anyway,

Something that DC said to me. When I asked him point blank..about how SG covered up the crime...he said to me,

" law enforcement has told us that he has not broken any laws"

THIS IS ONLY MY OPINION:

This makes me wonder if the statement that was prepared by a lawyer and read by SG on 12/17 left him some "wiggle room" He never admitted that what he was told was child molestation, although DC admitted it to David Brown.

If the above is true..i guess its gonna depend on what the meaning of IS is.

Anonymous said...

mjm..

To answer your question about ' the more or less'..

I think that nothing is new under the sun. I think that people are just talking about it now. And that's a good thing.

Anonymous said...

Fed up must be gone :(

Concernedsbcer

Thanks for your response to my post.

So much for the church being a safe haven in a sin sick world.

But I guess God should have always been our "Mighty Fortress", our shelter, our rock.

Anonymous said...

Sorry Fed up - Ididn't wait long enough.

If what you are saying is the case, David Brown's testimony is very critical.

I understand he is very committed..

David Brown said...

MJM: If you would allow me to interject here as to whether there is more abuse today than in years past.

This "moral failure" has been around for a very long time. That is the nice name for it. Not only have we had to endure a physical rape but we also suffer a spiritual rape. Many people used to feel that this was primarily a Catholic issue due to the priests not being allowed to marry. That is so far from the truth. I pray we now know the SBC is just as bad as the Catholic Church when it comes to dealing with child sexual abuse. And to tackle one more issue, many feel that most homosexuals are pedophiles. That also is not true. Most pedophiles are heterosexuals.

You are hearing about it more now becasue there people are becoming aware and there is more available now to help the victims. But you are still seeing victims remain slient for years before speaking out. Back when I was abused there was nothing in place to report it and more important who would have beieved a 15 year old speaking out this very popular priest?

So to answer your quesiton, I am not sure there are more now. But really what difference does that make? If there was just one pedophile that is one too many. What you see today are more brazen pedophiles. And we are certainly living in our last days.

You are right when you suggest all this discussion is good. I pray that parents are more aware but also that they do talk about this with their children. Somehow make your child understand it is ok to talk to you about this and that you are willing to listen. That is the hard part to do as a parent.

And as I have always said, if you err, then do in on behalf of the children. You will never have say your sorry to anyone if you do. I am so tired of hearing religious leaders coming forward after the "barn door" is open and saying they are sorry for not acting more quickly. Well yes they are sorry but I don't mean with regards to forgiveness. There isn't any good excuse to delay reporting suspected abuse.

I ask once again all to be in prayer. A lot of innocent souls (victims) are opened up again over this. But that is how we as victims grow and become suriviors.

I love you all and thank for your prayers and support.

Anonymous said...

Piglet

I've been thinking about something today..also based on my conversation with DC.

Let me preface this with saying that this is JUST MY OPINION. I am a NOBODY and leadership doesn't share inside information with me :)

I was told that the reason that PW was being kept on the payroll was so that he would cooperate. Those were his exact words. THat part of this is FACT.

Here's a question I am asking myself as i ponder things :

Would the number of victims he has had in the past 17 years be determined by whether or not he is on the payroll?

The more victims, the more liability of BBC.

Another question:

In what way would keeping him on the payroll make him more or less cooperative or uncooperative?

Just to take his statement by itself.." we are paying him so that he will cooperate" doesn't seem like a prudent thing for BBC to say.

And this is why I have a call into the DA :)


I'll pass along the information and then I will allow the DA's office to sort it out.

Anonymous said...

Fed Up

All points to ponder.

We need to really pray hard that the truth will be revealed.

And I know you won't forget to make that call. :)

Anonymous said...

Piglet

Going to watch a sermon of Dr. Rogers.

We have many sermons on VHS from the 80's when Tommy Lane was music director.

Offline until later......

Anonymous said...

About the labyrinths...are there any of these in the Baptist churches in the Memphis area? Seems somebody said the Second Baptist in Memphis?

allofgrace said...

concerning labyrinths, icons, contemplative prayer and all the other medieval practices that are enjoying a revival in our time...there's that old saying...i forget who coined it but.."if we fail to learn from history, we are condemned to repeat it."

Anonymous said...

Piglet said:


And I know you won't forget to make that call. :)
****

Gurrrrll...8:30 AM can't come soon enough!!!

I'm all over it!!! I will defend preserving the innocence of children until i am the last man, er, woman standing. I can't seem to find the energy to make up my bed, but when it comes to this..i have unlimited energy.

MOM4 said...

FROM THE PREVIOUS THREAD...
MOM4 said...
JMO said...
"I will not be able to respond this evening until late in that I must be at the church. Bro. Steve has asked me to read a series of potential releases to be presented tomorrow. He wanted me to provide some input. Additionally he said it would help to know where best to have the applause leaders and stand up leaders react. So oft to market the message…."

I don't think you realize just how right on the mark you are dear sir!

Of course, we will have to wait and see...

JMO,
I just read your posts on my failure to note that the comments you made were in jest. I assumed folks were reading along and it did not occur to me that there would be a question about it being in jest.
Please accept my apologies for my mistake - dare I say it - of the mind. JK
Actually, I had no idea you would take offense and I am truly sorry for my failure to completly quote your post. Please forgive me and I will try to be more careful in the future.

Anonymous said...

Nass said:

Jim Haywood reportedly had a minor encounter with security in the balcony. Seems he was spotted preparing to videotape the anticipated post-invitation statement by the pastor, and "security" frowned on this and kindly offered to escort him out of the service unless he "ceased and desisted." {sigh}

****

It appears to me that if 'we' want to record the pastor, we will just have to be more stealth about it.

I dunno, put the camera in a purse that has a special hole in it :)

Anonymous said...

trucker said:

fedupatbbc
One more benefit--ne can afford two Toyota camreys

****

Trucker, those toyotas aren't gonna do him any good when he is in jail..

Anonymous said...

David Brown,

I want to thank you for participating in this blog during these very dark days.

Do you think the widespread availability of pornography and ease of attaining child pornography via the web as contributed to an increase in crimes against children?
Many of the crimes we hear of today actually occurred 15, 20, or 30 years ago. How many more crimes are being committed against children today yet to be reported?

I ask this question because before the Internet, obtaining access to illegal pornography was risky and somewhat difficult. The Internet has allowed the porn and child porn industries to explode. I am concerned that there is actually more risk to children today because of the easy access to pornography.

I keep my babies close.

Anonymous said...

I'm just a backsliding buddhist, so you may well dismiss my opinion, yet I am interested in your plight, being both a recovering Southern Baptist and veteran of childhood sexual abuse.

My family and many friends are Southern Baptists and Bellevue members; I know that they feel as stained and humiliated by these events. Yes, the safety of children, or anyone vulnerable, is a matter of concern to anyone with a conscience.

I find ironic the extent to which Dr Gaines' supporters, like Mr. Bratton, parce the words and expressions of those commenting here. Hyperbole is always a poor substitute for substantive dialog, which is why "morale failure" rolls off the tongue like spoilt milk, the language seemingly drafted by an attorney.

I just don't think you are going to win back Bellevue, whether Dr Gaines survives this chapter or not. Everyone is digging in their heels already, and alliances and animosities will not just depart if he leaves.

Those that are in dissent do so on a very sound and compassionate premise--there's no excuse for endangering children, period. All this other stuff--respect-my-athoritii, chapter and verse, Nazi-baiting, standing ovations, etc--it's just going to kill you. Nothing good will come of it.

Y'all need to start anew and wash your hands of this business.

My (Buddhist) prayers are with you.

(I know, keep them.)

David

Anonymous said...

DAvid,

LOL, until tonight, i never realized that Buddahists can backslide.

Thank you for your comments.

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Anonymous said...

Friendinjax here, signing off of the blog...this forum has seriously digressed. I highly recommend that the owner of the blog take this whole blog off line until there is new news in the SG/PW saga, such as BBC makes its investigation findings known, or the DA communicates something. Until then, you all need to spend your time doing things more worthwhile.

David Brown said...

Lucy: Many of these reports you are hearing are from victims of years past. And there was no internet back then.

Yes the internet is source of much filth today. Most churches in their care groups have a ministry that deals with that. The problem is admitting you have a problem with it.

And I think it just shows how sinful man can be if left to their own devices. I am not a Blibical scholar by any means. In fact I am a work in progress. But if man would spend real time in the Word of God where He resides, we would not have some of the problems we have now.

As I said the other day. If Dr. Gaines had stood on the Word of God in June, he would not have to lean on the words of men (attorneys) in January. But you now what? If we just substitute our own name for Dr. Gaines, it would fit us too.

One thing I know was that Dr. Rogers stood on the Word of God. Long before Bellevue was on Appling Road I would fish on the ponds in that area and on more than one occasions I would encounter Dr. Rogers out there working on his sermons. I had to joy of visiting him at those times. That was one man that truly stood on the Word of God. It was reflected in his walk, his talk, his family. And I will say this, I for one am not ready to forget that past.

MOM4 said...

4545...
I agree that some of us have said things that should have not been said, usually a result of being attacked by the likes of ace, MB, maybe and (gulp) 4545, and others. I have received personal emails from the gaines camp that are so vile and nasty one would think Larry Flynt himself wrote them.
I want to make something very very clear, SO READ MY LIPS - NO CHARGES APPEARING ON THIS BLOG HAVE TURNED OUT TO BE UNTRUE. Just because you do not like the posts, does not mean that they are rumors. Perhaps you should do some homework, or just wait until the DA's office and the CPS gets thru with THEIR investigation before YOU make unfounded accusations.
Without the input from those I mentioned above, we seem to get along just fine in a worsipful, respectful spirit of deep concern for our church - so who is generating the strife here?

Anonymous said...
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Anonymous said...

David

I would agree with you on Dr. Rogers standing on God's Word. I remember him telling us often to "never check our brain at the door". Even Dr. Rogers wanted us to follow his sermons with questions and some scripture searching. He realized that he was only human and wanted to be held accountable to the Bible by those he taught.

I wonder if you have any statistics or have noticed a correlation between increased access to porn and child sexual abuse. My fear is that the availability today puts my children at more risk than they would have been 20 years ago. Is there more risk in the year 2007? Do you think that many years from now we will be hearing even more stories about those who are being abused today?

Custos said...

Hi Ema,

Thank you for your post, and my thanks also for doubting any purported intentions on my part to make trouble. David and others can certainly attest that we were not there to disrupt, but simply to present a presence.

I agree that it seemed that there was possibly an aborted apology/standing ovation. On the other hand, it may not have been in the works in the first place. There’s no real knowing I don’t guess, but it did seem that there was some sort of departure from the norm at the end.

You know, what struck me most this morning, was the one-sidedness of the sermon. The other side was missing: the side that says while all is forgiven us because of Jesus' precious blood, there are still consequences to sin, prices to pay as far as credibility, accountability, and trustworthiness. There are also things we can do that, while forgiven, would disqualify us from serving in the office of Pastor or church leader.

The point is that while believers will always be forgiven and fellowship with God can be restored through confession and repentance, there are still potentially prices to pay for sin. God pays the penalty for our sins (redeeming and justifying us) in the person of Jesus and His death, but He may not prevent the consequences of our sins from catching up with us--witness any number of biblical characters.

I'm rambling at this point. I can't stay online tonight, so again I want to thank you for your kind words to your friend on my behalf. (And before I run, a question you might want to ask her if the opportunity presents itself: Friend, how do you define a troublemaker? By your definition, friend, would the Lord have been considered a troublemaker? Most of the prophets? What about the Apostles? It's just a thought.)

Best wishes,
Josh

Anonymous said...

To Mark Sharpe:

I also agree with Sister Pam and Brother Charles.

May God continue to bless you.

concerned

David Brown said...

Lucy: The answer to all of those questions saddly is YES

Anonymous said...

Quote from Bratton: "There are legitimate issues that need to be discussed, particularly after next Monday's report is issued from Bellevue. Don't let name-calling and bitterness cashier you out of the discussion."

Lindon: That last sentence is illuminating: Who gets to decide who is part of the 'discussion'?

Bratton
Good question. I would suggest, though, that Nazi references and other disparagements go a long way toward taking someone out of the running, wouldn't you agree?

Lindon: Would being a pedophile or even harboring one, take someone out of the running, too? I guess being called a Nazi kind of pales next to this, wouldn’t you agree?

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