Thursday, February 01, 2007

Today's Media Coverage - February 1, 2007

New Commercial Appeal column by Wendi Thomas.

Original Wendi Thomas
column.

New FBC Jacksonville blog.

Associated Baptist Press
article.

Baptist Press
article.

Please bookmark this site:

http://newbbcopenforum.blogspot.com

669 comments:

1 – 200 of 669   Newer›   Newest»
David Brown said...

I posted this earlier on the other thread. I want to be sure all see it again before they start going off on others.

Dear brother and sisters: I am so saddened to see these attacks and threats from the last few days but mainly yesterday. I was in touch with the DA's office helping this new victim when I read some of the threats. I told them about it and have asked that they review them. They are. I understand that some of you have received some very threatening emails. Would you please send me copies? I will forward them on to the proper authorities.

NASS I would ask that as untasteful as it may be you leave the posts of ACE up at least for the time being.

It is ok to aruge and disagree but when you step over and make personal threats as some of you have, that may very well border on criminal activity. And for those so stupid enough to email threats, your IP address can be traced. I don't care who you are using.

If any of you want to take your shots at me instead, I welcome it. I have been through that meat grinder when my story was publish in 2005 and I am still here.

Please ALL of us, let's consider our tongue. Much has been said in Scripture about it. You may call it typing but it is the tongue that is directing it.

I love you all and it hurts to see the kind of things I have seen the last few days. We are after all fellow believers and saints in His wonderful Body. We must act it. Please.

David Brown
SNAP coordinatior of West Tennessee and Memphis

9:37 AM, February 01, 2007

Lwood said...

Testing....

Lwood said...

After several attemps....Finally got connected.....
Cold morning across the bridge but no snow.....

Psalm 43:3 said...

testing

2006Huldah said...

David Brown...

Thank you for your thoughtful words and for the work you do. I have never personally thanked you before, so I just wanted you to know where I stand and how much I admire the task you attend to daily.

When bad things happen to people, some live the rest of their lives in anger, grief and bitterness. Others use the bad things to learn from and continue on through life. I think about the death of Phillip, Dr. and Mrs. Rogers' little baby boy who died of crib death. If we are wise in the Lord, we look to His purpose to overcome evil with good. We take the bad thing and use it to come to the aid of others who are suffering. The Rogers did this, and you are doing this. It is an honorable thing. God's promise is true as He tells us in Isaiah 61:3...

"To appoint unto those who mourn in Zion, to give unto them beauty for ashes, the oil of joy for mourning, the garment of praise for the spirit of heaviness, that they might be called trees of righteousness, the planting of the Lord, that He might be glorified."

That would be YOU, David.

AMEN AND HALLELUJAH!

Dee

Come, LORD Jesus! said...

Living Hope In Jesus
www.livinghopeinjesus.com

Site index link: The CULT Of "DO NOT JUDGE"

A MUST read!!!

David Brown said...

This was my second post of earlier today on the other thread. Dee you are too kind. If there is any praise, glory or honor it should only go to one person, and to HIM alone. I pray we all know HIM personally!

Dear Logan: You are right about how DCS handles these cases. Unless there are arrests, NO ONE except those involved will know the results. And I sincerely doubt and hope there are NO arrests in this case.

I know a lot of people are wanting blood, more action and such. I only want the truth. But there has been much good to come out of it. Several victims from other abusers from other churches have come forward and are seeking help and they are presently Bellevue members Now Saints: we should all rejoice it that! That always happens when an abuse case becomes public. That is why I speak out as I do. That is to let other victims know there is help.

Now these hurting and wounded saints can go from being a victim to being a survivor. They no longer have to hide their hurt and shame in secret. Praise the Lord! HE is on the Throne. We do not serve a God of accidents, we serve a God of Purpose. It is for HIS Purpose. Nothing else.

Please join me in prayer for all that have come forward and for those thinking about it. Also please be in prayer for all those that post on here. Much prayer is needed.

I love you all and to HIM be all the Glory and Praise!!!!!

David Brown
SNAP coordinator of West Tennessee and Memphis

10:00 AM, February 01, 2007

Esther said...

From the Cult of Do Not Judge:

"There has been a trend going on for a number of years that has dulled the spiritual senses of the church and leavened the convictions of many a Christian. It has risen to new heights as of late where if anyone has anything to say about another they are told, “Don't judge, “touch not my anointed” “do my prophets no harm” etc. Maybe if some of the people that quote these verses would look at what they actually say “in context,” they wouldn't have such flawed arguments, they would not find themselves becoming entangled emotionally. Its not just finding a few words to prove a position, but what do they mean in the Scripture in its context and can they apply to us today.

What is ironic is that to tell people they are judgmental is to judge them. What people are doing is recommending for us not to judge by the word of God, but dispense with any discernment, just like they do it.

What they argue is just don't test it, or don't say this because I know such and such for years and they are doing great things for God. That's judging isn't it? And it is done by appearance. Then when this does not work they will respond by calling names and threatening people using Bible cliché's as “don't judge” “don't touch God's anointed,” “do my prophets no harm,” etc., all taken out of context. If they were to think biblically they would realize we are all anointed, not just some, and to come against another brother or sister that is trying to obey Scripture means they too are coming against God's anointed. Everyone in the body of Christ is anointed; nonetheless what someone teaches is to be tested. How do we know this? Paul commended the Thessalonians for doing so, even when it was Paul himself that was being examined by Scripture (Acts 17:11).That is a right Spirit.

So many have been indoctrinated into the constraint of don't say anything against another no matter how far off they are. Let God will deal with them. If this were true, then why are we given all the commands in Scripture to judge? Why all the warnings that deception and falsehood will permeate the Church in the end and we are to be on guard? We are told to deal with it and not allow it to continue. It's not to say that we make mountains out of molehills, but some are already mountains that need to be moved.

So lets speak to the mountain, speak to those who congregate at the foot of it and tell them.
Protectors of false teachers will say Jesus said, “not to Judge,” quoting Matthew 7:1, therefore that we cannot “judge.” At first glance it appears that Jesus does forbid judging, but lets continue to read the passage. Matthew 7:1-5: “Judge not, that you be not judged.” For with what judgment you judge, you will be judged; and with the measure you use, it will be measured back to you.” And why do you look at the speck in your brother's eye, but do not consider the plank in your own eye?” Or how can you say to your brother, 'Let me remove the speck from your eye'; and look, a plank is in your own eye?” Hypocrite! First remove the plank from your own eye, and then you will see clearly to remove the speck out of your brother's eye.”


In other words you can judge as along as you are not doing the same thing. If you want to help another and have taken care of yourself in this area, then you are able to see and operate on your brother. Jesus does not say don't operate under any circumstances, but allows us to remove the speck when we can see. But Jesus goes on and says in v:6: “Do not give what is holy to the dogs; nor cast your pearls before swine, lest they trample them under their feet, and turn and tear you in pieces.” What He is saying is that we need to make sure whom we are engaged with.

When you try to correct someone with the Holy Word and they are haters of truth they will not receive the pearls and will turn on you. So we are to weigh out whom we give the Word of God out to."

So Scripturally, if you have been protecting a pedophile while at the same time critisizing Gaines, you are wrong and should not judge him until you take that log out of your eye.

Ironically, those that say, "Do not judge" are actually judging!

pinker socks said...

David,
Just curious, are you referring to the PW case that you hope doesn't have any arrests? If so, why?
Thanks

charlie fox said...

pink piggy aka piglet said...

Then I had to reregister for my screen name today. Anyone else having weird problems?

Not I!!

Mr. said...
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ace said...
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ace said...
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allofgrace said...

ace,
last night in a post to overflowinggrace, you wanted to compare notes with her..and that after she alluded to the fact she had info on some people...don't even try to say you weren't trying to make people feel threatened or intimidated...if that wasn't your intent you would have messaged her privately.

ace said...
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socwork said...

testing

socwork said...

That's funny... in my experience, I haven't seen DCS "drop" an investigation before. I have seen them come to different conclusions about whether allegations are substantiated or unsubstantiated, but never forfieting an investigation. Hm...

ace said...
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ace said...
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Piglet said...

Hey,you guys:

Last night after Charlie's 11:09 post I lost the ability to refresh. I went out of the forum and came back in but still could not refresh. Hence the following messages:

Where is everybody?

(crickets chirping)

Then I had to reregister for my screen name today. Anyone else having weird problems?

It took me an hour to get the above reposted....

Piglet said...

David Brown

You have important mail

Lindon said...

Ace, It will not be up to you if it is considered a threat or not.

What I witnessed last night from the posts from you and overflowingwhatever were not wise. It is documented forever. It was made clear that investigations were going on to ruin people.

This is not a game. I do not know how old you are but I would suggest you stay off of here if you have so little self control or do not understand the ramifications of what you write.

Please do not respond to me with your typical mantra. It holds no weight anymore. What you say and what you do...do not match.

Piglet said...

Ace said

And how exactly is that a threat? I just want to know what he/she was uncovered. It's doing exactly what everyone else here it doing about Steve Gaines + company.

If people have information on me, feel free to send it to whoever you want, I have absolutely nothing to hide. What are you people here hiding, though? That makes me start to wonder.

Piglet says:

What Steve Gaines does with The tithes is the business of the church members.

People's personal finances are NOT the business of the membership.

charlie fox said...

Bloggers,

ACE OFTEN posts for one purpose and one purpose only. OFTEN, ACE's sole purpose is to be antagonistic. As long as ya'll waste your precious time and talent feeding ACE, ACE will continue to play that game. If you ignore ACE, then ACE will soon go away. Ya'll need to FOCUS, FOCUS, FOCUS on the problems at BBC and quit playing into their hands by playing their game. I know that it is hard to resist taking the BAIT, but you must RESIST THE TEMPTATION.

Piglet said...

David Brown,

Are we still waiting for the second report you mentioned last week?

ace said...
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socwork said...

And how much experience do you have with the DCS?

A lot.

ace said...
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ace said...
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charlie fox said...

Dr. Fox sez,
Ignore the agitator. It's good for you health. It'll help keep you blood pressure down!!!!!

ace said...
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Lindon said...

Ever heard of Google cache?

ace said...
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The Great Knock said...

Man and women of Bellevue.

Where is our outrage? Where is our shame? Our pastor thought it was right to allow a minister to remain on staff that raped his own son. Don't you understand what that means? So often we talk about moral issues such as abortion so much we forget the evil that is actually being discussed.

There are so many unanswered questions. Why does Steve Gaines believe child rape does not diqualify someone from the ministry? Does he believe adultery does? Does he really mean he has not dealt with ministers guilty of moral failure before?

I believe we have not been given an explanation for his actions because he knows you cannot defend the indefensible.

I call on our deacons to demand explanations and hold him accountable at the next deacons meeting. I know they have no "power" in this church. However, in lieu of an open business meeting that's the closest I'll get to finding any answers to this scandal gripping our church.

Deacons, think of your children. What would Steve Gaines have told you personally if Paul Williams had molested your child because you were not given the knowledge necessary to protect your family?

Lindon said...

They were up long enough....if one knows what one is doing.

david S said...

If Ace is going to be allowed to post, why not address his arguments instead of calling what he is doing "threats." If he is threatening someone, NASS had been removing his posts. I think it's good to hear what ACE has to say, shows the weakness of their argument. However, to just scream at every post: "THREAT" is getting old. Easy to pick on him because he stands alone.

Ace, the best thing to do to keep yourself from being taken out of context when you email is... DON'T EMAIL people!

Piglet said...

People's personal finances are NOT the business of the membership.

Then why it SG's? He is a member of BBC and you are digging into his personal finaces, his salary, etc.

Why can't we dig up Jim Haywood's past salary info, and etc? I think a lot of people here are hypocrites.

Piglet says:

Are you paying Haywood's salary? NO.

The membership is PAYING Gaines salary and should KNOW what it is.

I don't have personal knowledge of the shoes isssue but I beleive it was about whose money he used to buy them with.

You are becoming increasingly viscious and desperate.

If you have faith in the pastor and his credibility, you would encourage this meeting so all can be resolved, and not be so obviously nervous that people might know things...

Piglet said...

My 1:08 post was addressed to Ace.

charlie fox said...

PIGLET!!!!!!!

ace said...
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Esther said...

"If Ace is going to be allowed to post, why not address his arguments instead of calling what he is doing "threats."

One does not debate with children

snowbird said...

lindon:

Not to mention the running archive backups at blogspot.com

Piglet said...

Oh, Charlie...I just couldn't help myself. I'm trying....

I will sit in the corner for a half hour.(Piglet hangs little head)

But I'm taking my laptop.

ace said...
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ace said...
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charlie fox said...

snowbird said...
lindon:

Not to mention the running archive backups at blogspot.com

BINGO!!!! snowbird collect your prize.

Bepatient said...

That tithe money is God's not OURS.

david S said...

Ace,
What reason can you think of to keep a salary secret?

Our DOM recently lumped all "staff" into the same financial catagory, thus hiding his salary. I encouraged the church to lower its giving to associational missions and give more to other missions works. Why give to someone who has something to hide?

4545 said...

I have been through alot in my life also, in different ways. That still does not justify the lies, rumors, attacks, hate, etc that many of the posts on the wonderful Christian blog are filled with. There is no excuse!

You and others try and justify everything you say and do with what Dr. Gaines and others at Bellevue might or might not have done. BUT, you then hold their feet to the fire any chance you get.

BIG double standard! BIG. We are all in control of our own actions and what we say and do.

It DOES NOT matter what someone else does. This has been the attitude of this blog and so many people from day one. To try and justify all the hate filled attacks and rumors and slander and on and on by things OTHERS have done or have not done.

We are suppose to represent Christ at all times, not just when things are going well. The Bible is clear and there is NO way to defend the actions of many on here and other places over the past several months.

Many need to stop pointing fingers at others and look in the mirror. You will be held just as accountable for the stuff you are doing and saying.

David, what do you mean, do not go there? So some get a free pass?

charlie fox said...

It is my understanding that NBBCOF has permantly banned ACE from posting. NBBCOF is deleting ACE's posts on a regular basis.

david S said...

Ace,
Are you over 25?

Piglet said...

somebody said:

I posted this a bunch already, but I will be at your meeting with my wire. That's not a threat, just a fact. I am giving you the common courtesy to let you know it will be recorded in it's entirety

Piglet says:

Why do you assume that recording us is scary? We welcome it. We, unlike others, welcome the truth to come out. Audio AND video would be great.

ace said...
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charlie fox said...

Bloggers,

ACE & DEACON 4545 OFTEN post for one purpose and one purpose only. OFTEN, their sole purpose is to be antagonistic. As long as ya'll waste your precious time and talent feeding them, they will continue to play their game. If you ignore them, then they will soon go away. Ya'll need to FOCUS, FOCUS, FOCUS on the problems at BBC and quit playing into their hands by playing their game. I know that it is hard to resist taking their BAIT, but you must RESIST THE TEMPTATION

allofgrace said...

bepatient,
Who writes the checks on God's money?

ace said...
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ace said...
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Piglet said...

be patient said

That tithe money is God's not OURS.

Piglet says:

All the more reason to keep pastor salaries in check so that the love of money is not an issue. A great way to do this is to make it known to the members like OTHER churches do.

David Brown said...

Dear Ace: DCS never really "drops" a case as you claim, rather they will close or make it inactive. Let me explain further, often in sex abuse cases the victim will wait a long time before coming forward in talking about their abuse. Now before you go jumping on me, I am not suggesting that this is going to happen in this case. I pray it does not.

But yesterday I heard from a victim who was basically silent for almost 30 years. My point is that the shame, guilt and horror for victims is so great, they just choose to be silent.

In the situation I am working on now, their perp is a serial offender and may still being doing it today. He has been reported and the authorities are dealing with it now.

My dear brother ACE: I wish I could make you see how hurting some of these victims are. But you really want to live and walk in their shoes to fully understand. Have you read my story? It is on my profile under "wishlist". It might give you some insight how we deal with our abuse. We all deal with our abuse in many different ways. Some are really wounded and yes some are posting on here very passionately and perhaps shouldn't. But for you and others to take out after them is wrong. I know you have your side and I do respect it. I have told you that. But that is you and I.

Do you or even some of them think we will ever convince someone when you are shouting at them, calling them names, etc.? Not a chance in He--. But I know that and I think you do too.

Someone asked me earlier about my comments about not wanting to see anyone be arrested. I sincerely mean that too. I will explain that more later. I do have a real job and requires me to work some.

ACE, 4545, & OFG: I love each of you and I have told you that and you know I am being truthful. I just wish somehow you would cut some of them some slack as I wish they would you. I give you credit, you know the buttons to push. And some of them do too. Who gains or wins?

Look I am very human and frail too. When I heard about the length of time this vicitm was abused it ripped right through me. But I knew what to do. I got off the blog and got in HIS Word. I have to do it often.

Please would each and everyone of us BEFORE we blast someone that disagrees, STOP and ask if what I am about to post is going to hurt.

ACE: brother I have your emails but I won't have a chance to read them today. Thanks for forwarding them. I am going to try to head to Pickwick and in the quiteness there get back in HIS Word. I need it.

I love you all and please be kind.

David Brown

david S said...

Ace,
I'm glad you know it's not about you. You seem to keep controversy swirling around you 24/7... then when asked a question you declare: "this isn't about me!" The question is simple enough: Are you an adult? Grown up? To you pay for the house you live in, or are you under someone elses roof?

charlie fox said...

IGNORE THE ANTAGONISTS!!!!!!!!!!

ace said...
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david S said...

Maybe yours get the spotlight because you're not acting like a "normal" person, brother. No one else claims to "know" the people here.

4545 said...

Also, so some of you know, MANY of the members of Bellevue do not want any of you to have their names and addresses in order to send out what many consider junk mail.

There is more to it, but because TN Law might allow something does not make it right. You can use that as a crutch all you would like, but that will never make it the right thing to do.

Piglet said...
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ace said...
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4545 said...

David S- Try and justify all you want.

Bepatient said...

Yes, seeing as God doesn't have a checking account here on earth :) He does rely on men to be stewards of that money. We will probably never all agree on how the tithe money is spent. Personally, I would like to see more given to local missions than to foreign missions, and some people don't like the TVs in the church, and some people think we shouldn't have softball fields. But either get involved in how that money is spent, move your membership somewhere else where you can have more control, or trust God that He will make sure "your" money is spent in the way He wants it to be.

ace said...
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2006Huldah said...
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david S said...

david: "What reason can you think of to keep a salary secret?"

Ace: "To get to the point quickly, it's because it's none of our business."

Friends, I completely disagree. You have every right to know what your pastor gets paid!

Our deacons oversee my salary and recently moved it up in order to better refelct a medium income for our congregation. Everyone who gives can know that everything they give isn't going to support one man.

In his book "Too great a temptation" Joel Gregory warns that a pitfall of mega church's is that they do not disclose what their pastors make.

Also, the Bible warns that pastors are to not to be "greedy for money, but eager to serve" 1 Peter 5:2

This idea that it's none of your business what he gets paid is nuts. I want people to know what I get paid! i want them to see what I drive (a mini van) and know where I live. I want them to know I don't live above them and don't lord over them a secret salary.

ace said...
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Bepatient said...

There are people in the church that know how much the pastor makes. It is not like he is just writing out checks to himself for however much he thinks he should get paid. That would certainly be a problem. I don't think it should be a "secret" in that sense, but I don't think there is any reason that all 30,000 members need to know.

4545 said...

David S- But somehow, you and others had no problem with Dr. Rogers salary being kept secret. You seemed to have no problem, where he shopped and what he spent on shoes and I could go on and on.

Piglet said...

be patient

The membership is being abused.

If the only bylaws we have are the 1929 version, we are STILL not following those. We should be having regular business meetings.

The church is supposed to be congregationally approved. We no longer have a say. This has to be changed.

There have been some abuses of power and these will continue if left unchecked.

The leadership has ignored Matt. 18 and left this open wound to fester 18 months.

They have broken federal and state laws on four separate occasions and ignore our only set of bylaws.

We have a responsibility as members NOT to stand for it.

I am well aware that those in power want us to leave. Wouldn't that be just peachy for them? :)

Bepatient said...

Also, I just wanted to mention how much I hate how cold it is. I don't see how people survive up north where it is cold like this all winter. Of course, they say that about us in the summer!

charlie fox said...

Your attention, please.

I STRONGLY encourage those that have OPPOSING VIEWS to post on this forum. True debate is HEALTHY. I STRONGLY urge BOTH SIDES to engage in a HEALTHY DEBATE on the SERIOUS ISSUES that face BBC.
However, I just as STRONGLY urge those, such as ACE , DEACON 4545 & others, who frequently post for the sole purpose of being antagonistic and disruptive, not to attempt to detract with their antagonistic posts. Should they do so, which is their right, I STRONGLY urge posters on BOTH sides not to respond to those types of antagonistic posts that serve NO CONSTRUCTIVE PURPOSE, but ONLY attempt to detract from the SERIOUS ISSUES that face BBC.

David Brown said...

Be Patient: I agree too. My dear wife is from South Dakota. I think you know how cold it gets there. Let me sweat anytime. I love it. Give me some shorts, sunglasses and sandals as I sit on my dock at Pickwick fishing.

2006Huldah said...
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nanasboys3 said...

Ace,
I am only going to address you once and then I will move on. No it doesn't matter what Dr Gaines does with his money. He should be able to buy whatever he wants. With his own money and credit cards. That is not anyone's business. But he shouldn't use the church's credit card for anything other than church business. PERIOD!!!!

My issue is with many things that have been done such as the pastor stating that he would look at the tithing records. He shouldn't have anything to with the money PERIOD!! That is none of his business. That is God's business and the tither or non-tither. Also not wanting to meet with a deacon who would dare to ask questions. Told to leave if he didn't like it. That didn't work so he tried intimidation--the itty bitty fence fiasco--every time I see that I want to scream.
The mistreatment of Dr and Mrs Whitmire(yes I know he apologized)
The mistreatment of Mrs Rogers and her request about Dr Rogers knowing about the PW mess. And the handling of the PW mess. That alone is enough for me. Oh and one more thing, Dr Gaines lack of compassion for the flock. He went to other churches and disrespected every member of BBC with his comments.

This is heartbreaking to me. I don't understand why it is so hard for some to understand why this is tearing people apart. God help BBC.

2006Huldah said...
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Piglet said...

4545

You don't need a cop until there's a law broken.

We had no integrity problems with Adrian Rogers.

He was never caught in a lie, was not out at other churches badmouthing us, preached on MOST Wednesdays for many, many years, never left problems within the church unresolved, did not bully his deacons or staff...

His salary was not an issue. The same person that quit his job over Gaines salary was well aware of Dr.Rogers' salary. He also knew Gaines was being paid substantially more at "entry level" than Dr.Rogers was being paid at the time of his retirement.

We need updated bylaws, regular business meetings, new people rotating into committee positions to keep internal affairs on the up and up..

Most would agree that openness and transparency is a good thing because it is scriptural....and the law of the land concerning nonprofits.

Why was this law made? Because of the potential for corruption at the top in a large nonprofit organization, which is what we are seeing.

4545 said...

Also, so some of you know, MANY of the members of Bellevue do not want any of you to have their names and addresses in order to send out what many consider junk mail.

There is more to it, but because TN Law might allow something does not make it right. You can use that as a crutch all you would like, but that will never make it the right thing to do.

ace said...
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2006Huldah said...
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BBC Refugee said...

Ace,

Are you Tim Whitehorn?

charlie fox said...

Your attention, please.

I STRONGLY encourage those that have OPPOSING VIEWS to post on this forum. True debate is HEALTHY. I STRONGLY urge BOTH SIDES to engage in a HEALTHY DEBATE on the SERIOUS ISSUES that face BBC.
However, I just as STRONGLY urge those, such as ACE , DEACON 4545 & others, who frequently post for the sole purpose of being antagonistic and disruptive, not to attempt to detract with their antagonistic posts. Should they do so, which is their right, I STRONGLY urge posters on BOTH sides not to respond to those types of antagonistic posts that serve NO CONSTRUCTIVE PURPOSE, but ONLY attempt to detract from the SERIOUS ISSUES that face BBC.

ace said...
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david S said...

4545: "But somehow, you and others had no problem with Dr. Rogers salary being kept secret. You seemed to have no problem, where he shopped and what he spent on shoes and I could go on and on."

I never said BOO about Dr. Rogers salary. I never talked about where gaines shopped. I plainly said: A congregation should know what their pastor is paid. I didn't say: "unless your name is A. Rogers..." So drop your accusations. My statement was plain, don't muddy it up.

blink07 said...

charlie fox,

That was a lot of yelling to get a simple point across.

Piglet said...

Charlie

I know you are dissappointed in me, but aren't I being well behaved in my responses? I am using much restraint and my blood pressure is normal. :)

2006Huldah said...
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Piglet said...

Dee

Thumbs up from the pig!

charlie fox said...

blink07,

I don't yell.

david S said...

Dee,
Do you recall exactly what it is he said about shoes? Was it specifically about shoes?

ace said...
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Phil Edmiston said...

Years ago, while Dr. Rogers was pastor, I was told that even though it wasn't public information, if a member wanted to know the pastor's salary, they would tell you.

I just never had a reason to go and ask.

ace said...
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Trollcates said...

Ace, a lot of the things you write on this blog tick me off, but lately it is "and etc" throughout your posts. Et cetera is latin for "and the others," so when you say "and etc," you are basically saying "and and the others." Sorry to be a pedant.

Don't get me started on the stupid title, "The da Vinci Code."

ace said...
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Phil Edmiston said...

sorry Ace, I don't remember who told me. It was a long time ago.

Trollcates said...

Argh!

Trollcates said...

Who, lil' ole moi, threaten?

Ngek, ngek, ngek, ngek.

BBC Refugee said...

4545 said...
David S- But somehow, you and others had no problem with Dr. Rogers salary being kept secret.

45,
If I was told that Dr Rogers was renegotiating his salary, asking for more than that was agreed to, I WOULD HAVE ASKED, I can assure you. This does not mean I would have been told.

However, this is not a fair comparison to SG. AR did not drive flashy or expensive cars. AR kept his cars for a long time. I could be wrong, but it was my understanding that he had refused salary increases in his early years. It was also my understanding that he never asked for his salary before he accepted God's leading at BBC. I would not think it would have been wrong to know, just not a fair comparison for your point.

This is also part of the problem. It is just not fair to SG to make these comparisons because history does show how AR handled himself. There is no good comparisons to make. SG is a different person and he will have to determine what kind of man (not just preacher or annointed man)he will be. He has had terrible judgement decisions(jumping a private fence, covering it up, speaking of his dreams, PW, No apology to victim of PW, anger towards staff, etc)

It seems he has not yet completely decided.

Remember too that much of the discourse and lack of trust is also with the "leadership" of BBC. Once again, look at the past Deacon Chairman who once stood behind AR that are now turning there back on LWF and AR's widow. Some (ST, CT) have refered to Dr Rogers as "the old spinmeister". How do we come to regain respect for these men?

These are the men (MD and those who put him in his position)who started working on BBC's "Culture Change" before Dr Roger's ever resigned. They did this behind his back.

I understand that there are some that are excited these changes have taken place, but to others of us, it is a shock. We trusted the men that served Dr Rogers would continue to be the same men on integrity to serve past Dr Rogers. What happened? Why was our trust misused?

People keep refering back to why these questions were not asked when Dr Rogers was here. It is simple:
There was not a reason to ask. We felt that trust in BBC was intact.

I remember Dr Rogeres explaining to a group that because of sin on a staff members part, "they have made a huge withdrawal in the BBC Trust Bank", he went on to explain that the staff would have to make many more deposits in the trust bank in order to restore the level of trust on deposit.

This is true with all of us and all our relationships.

The questions being asked today are only being asked because the questions asked over a year ago were either not answered or not answered until they felt there was not another option.

But to your point, it is not fair, especially now, to try to compare Steve GAines and Dr. Rogers. The good news is SG (like all of us) still have time to change this.

Piglet said...

(piggie offline)

2006Huldah said...

David S said...

Dee,
Do you recall exactly what it is he said about shoes? Was it specifically about shoes?

************

If you are referring to what Steve Gaines said about "shoes", then, yes, I can recall almost exactly and, yes, it was specifically about shoes. I am sure this sermon is on tape if someone would take the time to find it. It was one of Steve Gaines earliest sermons at BBC.

Keep in mind, though, that the main thing here is not the shoes themselves. It is the fact that he emphasized to the congregation NOT to do something (in principle or reality) that HE would himself do. What he says is loftier than what he does in his own life. His actions set a bad example. We cannot look at him and see a man who is living for Jesus because of his own doings i.e. climbing fences of posted property, making light of his own flock at Bellevue, failing to report a confession by a staff minister that he had raped his own son. How long will it be and what else has to happen before the rest of the congregation sees what's going on? Lord help us!

Dee

charlie fox said...

Your attention, please.

I STRONGLY encourage those that have OPPOSING VIEWS to post on this forum. True debate is HEALTHY. I STRONGLY urge BOTH SIDES to engage in a HEALTHY DEBATE on the SERIOUS ISSUES that face BBC.
However, I just as STRONGLY urge those, such as ACE , DEACON 4545 & others, who frequently post for the sole purpose of being antagonistic and disruptive, not to attempt to detract with their antagonistic posts. Should they do so, which is their right, I STRONGLY urge posters on BOTH sides not to respond to those types of antagonistic posts that serve NO CONSTRUCTIVE PURPOSE, but ONLY attempt to detract from the SERIOUS ISSUES that face BBC.

BBC Refugee said...

Someone help me.

Is it out of line to ask ACE if he is Tim Whitehorn (David Perdues Son-in-Law)?

Do you know Tim W?

Isn't he the one who interupted the off campus meeting?

Is Tim W the one who is in charge of SG Television Ministry that will be launching?

IS it wrong to ask this? I was just looking for a yes or no. Why would the answer be different by emailing him?

2006Huldah said...
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Phil Edmiston said...

Hey Charlie Fox, is that your real name or are your initials CF and you use the aviation alphabet charlie foxtrot as your identity?

ace said...
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ace said...
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ace said...
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charlie fox said...

bbc refugee,

Ace likes to play games. He is merely baiting you.

ace said...
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2006Huldah said...

bbc refugee said...

But to your point, it is not fair, especially now, to try to compare Steve GAines and Dr. Rogers. The good news is SG (like all of us) still have time to change this.

2:36 PM, February 01, 2007

*************
Who wants to compare Steve Gaines to Dr. Rogers? There is no comparison. "The good news is" Steve Gaines has not yet been charged for two incidents he has committed that were against the law and for which he could have been charged. I would think that would be very good news indeed for him and his family to say the least. I cannot say that Bellevue Baptist Church can be very proud of that fact--and remember--it IS FACT.

And, how long had he been our pastor when these particular things occurred? Less than a year, you say? Well, that is just wonderful, isn't it?

Dee

charlie fox said...

Bloggers,

ACE OFTEN posts for one purpose and one purpose only. OFTEN, ACE's sole purpose is to be antagonistic. As long as ya'll waste your precious time and talent feeding ACE, ACE will continue to play that game. If you ignore ACE, then ACE will soon go away. Ya'll need to FOCUS, FOCUS, FOCUS on the problems at BBC and quit playing into their hands by playing their game. I know that it is hard to resist taking the BAIT, but you must RESIST THE TEMPTATION.

Bepatient said...

I agree that it is not appropriate to ask who Ace is here, if you have a question for him, just email him. All that is going to end up happening is that the conversation will wind up being about Ace for hours on end and NBBCOF will get mad and delete it all. It is pointless. Just email him. He will answer it.

Phil Edmiston said...

Charlie Fox,

Is that your real name or are your initials CF and you use the aviation alphabet charlie foxtrot as your identity?

Bepatient said...

And for those that would complain about comparing Dr. Rogers and Steve Gaines, I do agree that arguments about what Dr. Rogers would have done, etc. are inappropriate. But I think in the case of the salaries, we are pointing out the attitudes of people ABOUT Dr. Rogers, not the man himself. That is the difference.

JMO

David Brown said...

Brother Ace and 4545: You be good while I am gone, cause if you aren't, I am not going to invite you the catfish fry I am going to have when I get back from Pickwick. Now you know I am crazy. No body in their right mind would sit on a dock in freezing weather and fish. But I am. ;)

Love you all!! Even the good ones and the bad ones. Wait! Someone already said that. HIS name was JESUS.

David Brown, now known as the crazy fisherman of Pickwick and
SNAP coordinator of West Tennessee and Memphis

2006Huldah said...

charlie fox...

If we let Ace get away with distorting the truth and trying to make things that are not the main thing the main thing, then we err.
He belittles others and makes light of our convictions and tries to discredit our statements with his condescension. If we are going to allow him to post here, then we must be able to expose his misleading statements.

Dee

overflowinggrace said...

yawn

2006Huldah said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Esther said...

Bepatient: I agree that it is not appropriate to ask who Ace is here, if you have a question for him, just email him. All that is going to end up happening is that the conversation will wind up being about Ace for hours on end and NBBCOF will get mad and delete it all. It is pointless. Just email him. He will answer it."

Not appropriate to ASK, you say? Did you know that Ace posted NASS’ name last night? He did not 'ask' her, he posted it.

Whether it is really her name or not does not matter. He was planting a seed.

His Eddie Haskell-like behavior obviously worked with his mother growing up.

Hezekiah said...

The reason they don't publicize Dr. Gaines' salary (or any other staff member) is just for the very reason you see on this blog. You would pick it apart no matter what he made and criticize anything and everything he bought. I do not know of any megachurch in America that publicizes staff salaries.

In a church the size of Bellevue it must be run by committees (which are authorized by the church). An open mike business meeting in BBC would be a disaster.

Go back and read what Dr. Rogers said. BBC is committee run and it should stay that way.

Karen said...

Ace,

For the record, keep my name out of your posts unles we are debatinga post. I have every email you've ever sent me (and mine back to you). If NASS ever wants them, she can have them. You apologized to me via email the other night and we've had no further comments to each other since. Don't attach my name to anything you post to bolster your arguement with another blogger here. I want no part of you.

karen

socwork said...

I shared this verse yesterday, but I keep coming back to it...

Jeremiah 6.14
They dress the wound of my people
as though it were not serious. 'Peace, peace,' they say,
when there is no peace.

Please take a minute and read the rest of the chapter - it's so good, but I don't want to post it on here because I know I have a tendency not to read really long posts when I'm in a hurry. So out of courtesy for the attention deficit in the crowd, I'll keep it short.

BBC Refugee said...

Ace,

I have emailed my question to you.
Thanks.

notonaside said...

I usually don't jump in on the back and forth conversations about individuals, but as I sit here glancing over these I can't help but think about my children. Often one child is aggravating the other and really getting the others goat just with words. This amazes me because I tell the other one, just don't let it bother you and it will get old and they'll stop doing it. The purpose is to get your dander up and if the purpose is served then they keep on.

On a personal note, I have had email contact with Ace and found it to be very cordial.

notonaside said...

On the subject of the pastor's salary. If it is not our business to know what he makes or how he spends his money, then why is it his business to look into his employees personal information to see if they are tithing? Just a thought.

david S said...

Interesting: I was watching Fox News. they were stating that it is a problem right now in the business world that many CEO's are hiding what they make. I think the church should rise above the business world. How scary, event he world can see the problem in an indisclosed salary.

And it's good to know that Dr. Rogers salary wasn't really such a secret. Try asking what current admin makes.

Bible-in-a-year said...

1)
For any "long-time Bible-owners/first-time Leviticus readers":

Please hang in there. Here is what I hope you get from the text, (over-and-over):

Jesus died for our sins ("attoned for our sins") as the perfect blood sacrifice.

Each one of these animal sacrifices is one more reminder of all that Jesus was able to do in his one-time-forever payment on the cross at Calvary.


I invite others to wax more theologically than I.
----
2)
I did notice that a while back were talking about ordinations.

Here in Leviticus 8:14-36 (see also Exodus 29:1-35) we have the first real ordination ceremony in the Bible. Of course since Jesus, we do things differently.

david S said...

Dee,
I think the most important thing is not to check Ace. He's lost credibility anyway! The important thing is to get focused on what really matters. Get that list back out (forgot whose list it was) and revisit the key issues. Hold staff's feet to the fire on those. (and, personally, I would probably drop the shoes thing... not that it's not valid, it is, but nothing can be done about it now and it sounds petty even if it's not).

Bepatient said...

esther, My point is that while you cannot control what ACE does, NASS has stated over and over that she doesn't want that stuff posted here, this blog is not about Ace...

Bible-in-a-year said...

David Brown said...

Look I am very human and frail too. When I heard about the length of time this vicitm was abused it ripped right through me. But I knew what to do. I got off the blog and got in HIS Word. I have to do it often.

Please would each and everyone of us BEFORE we blast someone that disagrees, STOP and ask if what I am about to post is going to hurt.

...

I am going to try to head to Pickwick and in the quiteness there get back in HIS Word. I need it.


-----

David Brown,

You have inspired true greatness in many people around you.

We will forever owe you a debt.

When Joseph (in Egypt) got together with his brothers, he told them that what they had meant for evil, God had used for good.

You have truly taken the evil that was done to you and let God work through it for good.

BBC Refugee said...

Some of the issues:

GREAT POST FROM 25+

Here are a few important changes that would help restore the trust of many members during these days of crisis in leadership:

I. Pastoral Accountability to the Congregation:
1. A business meeting in accord with Matthew 18 to deal with the issues that remain related to Mark Sharpe and "the Dream"... and any other loose ends that should have been dealt with months ago!!
2. The giving records of the membership and the ministers on staff at Bellevue should never be for pastoral review in any shape, form, or fashion.
3. Due to concern for potential abuse, no church credit cards.
4. An admission Dr. Gaines should have never given $25k to FUMC and an explanation of policy changes to prevent a repeat.
5. A policy for open books on Holy land trips and no overcharging of members.
6. Full disclosure of ministerial compensation: salary + benefit breakdown, etc.
7. Immediate removal from office of ministers guilty of sexual immorality with immediate coordination with the appropriate authorities if any laws have been broken by a minister (no matter how long ago), including thorough investigation of the matter when the minister’s conduct may have affected other church members or their children.

II. Congregational Church governance:
Some of the congregation has awakened to the reality that our church has a set of "lay-elders," a close knit group of men who manage to be appointed to key positions year after year. The rest of the congregation needs to be awakened.
1. Those who are part of this lay-elder "power block" need to step down from positions of influence for a long time. Bellevue needs “new blood” in these key positions.
2. There needs to be the signing of a public conflict of interest form for any member that has any business contract to provide services for the church. These people should not be allowed to serve on committees that review bids for their services.
3. Congregational nomination of and election of all of the Board of Directors as called for in the 1929 bylaws.
4. A quarterly business meeting with open mike Q&A with each committee chairman. **The current bylaws mention "monthly" business meetings! When were they changed??
5. A good updated set of bylaws similar to GBC.
6. A transparent committee selection process.
7. Much greater congregational oversight of the current budget with a transparent policy for consideration of non-budgeted expenditures exceeding a reasonable amount.
8. Thorough communication with the Congregation for ANY capital project well in advance of any vote. Building prayer buildings or any other type of building should be brought through proper channels to the congregation for prayerful consideration--not coerced "rubber stamping." [By the way, Dr. Rogers taught us quite a bit about prayer. As a matter of fact, I believe all of the current buildings ARE prayer buildings already. He and Dr. Whitmire also taught us quite a bit about worship also... but that's another topic].
9. Bellevue needs to reject Warrenism fully and finally.
10. Higher standards should be put in place for the hiring of "ministers." Seminary training should be considered a normal prerequisite.

III. Treatment of ministers on staff at BBC and members:
1. A whistle blower policy for ministers, staff, and members.
2. The end of heavy handed dealing with ministers, staff, and members; and the end of signing non-disclosure statements. All ministers who have been pressured or asked to sign such non-disclosure statements should be released from them in writing by BBC! Former staff should be allowed to address the congregation and/or the deacon body either in writing or in person without any fear of reprisal regarding their exit from BBC. The congregation needs to know how their leadership has treated and is treating ministers who leave the service of our Lord through BBC.
3. Forgiveness for those in leadership who have allowed this to deteriorate to this point--AND consequences for their actions.

All in my opinion as usual.

We are to be “providing things honestly in the sight of all men” (Rom. 12:17). Revival, reform, congregational oversight... for there is level ground at Calvary and "he who would be great among you shall be the servant of all."

Trollcates said...

Yeah, just because Ace constantly relays that he knows who people are here and passes judgement on others' motives (like garnering blog hits) is no reason to speculate about his identity or motives.

How dare you? Bwah!

Esther said...

bepatient: "esther, My point is that while you cannot control what ACE does, NASS has stated over and over that she doesn't want that stuff posted here, this blog is not about Ace..."

That was your point?

I thought you should know that your comrade did exactly what you chastized someone else for doing. Even though we are all aware that this blog NOT about him.

Esther said...

karen wrote: I want no part of you."

You go, girl.

Bible-in-a-year said...

David S


The list by 25+ is here.

It is part of a blog at here.

I contine to invite a pro-pulpit rep and a pro-pew rep to sit down and negotiate these.

I also have said that people should copy their favorite items to their own blogs and blog away.

Here is my FUMC blog .

I also am working on a anti-Warrenism blog.

I have never read PDL before.

Bepatient said...

I know exactly what he did. It is between him and NASS. She has asked everyone repeatedly not to speculate on this blog about who ACE is. She has said if you have a question for him email him.

So if you think he is being disrespectful by posting that name, perhaps the proper response would be for others her to respect what she has asked you to do.

Two wrongs don't make a right. Maybe I should change my name to that.

david S said...

BBC refugee / All:

take a long look at that list. The bottom line is: What are you going to do about it? How stirred up does it get you? Enough to rise up and take action? Either you'll read it and say:

1. "Okay, some things were mishandled... I can live with it, though."

Or you'll say:
2. "Something HAS to be done!"

To continue to talk about shoes and hint at the issues won't bring change. As a group, refine those issues down, unify and press them.

Esther said...

bepatient: "So if you think he is being disrespectful by posting that name, perhaps the proper response would be for others her to respect what she has asked you to do. "

Just a bit funny how you chastized someone else for doing that but not Ace. hmmmmmm

Maybe I should change my name to no double standards. :o)

BTW: Follow Christ, not men

Bible-in-a-year said...

(offline until tomorrow after 6 a.m.)

charlie fox said...

Bloggers,

Even though ACE is not here right now, he is STILL ACCOMPLISHING HIS GOAL. He has TOTALLY DISTRACTED us as we chat amongst ourselves.

FORGET ABOUT ACE!!!!!!!

Esther said...

david s: "As a group, refine those issues down, unify and press them."

I respect and applaud what you are saying but am doubtful. The issues really boil down to unity in scripture. If that is missing, then there can be no unity. Anything else is a false unity.

david S said...
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david S said...

Esther,
right on. So what issues on the list are SCRIPTURAL issues?

ace said...
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Bepatient said...

I have talked to Ace about it, just not on this blog. Don't make assumptions.

I do follow God, not men, and it is really hurtful for you to say otherwise. You do not know my heart.

ace said...
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charlie fox said...

Ignore ACE!!!!!!

ace said...
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charlie fox said...

ignore ACE!!!

ace said...
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Karen said...

I've finally found something positive to post about:

IT'S SNOWING!!!!!!

karen (doing a happy snowball cartwheel!

BBC Refugee said...

David S,

Isn't this what IDC is doing? This is a great reason to support IDC.

BIAY,

Good luck on getting someone to sit down with you. The only way to discuss these issues are directly with those who can answer. I laugh at all those who say "I know", when there information is 6th and 7th hand information from someone "who knows"... Isn't this how most posters from both sides have received their information?

The ones who know or can say do not want to meet because they feel it is not our business. Not just pastor salaries...anything. This is an indictment on their leadership. Look how tough it has been to get what little truth has come out. Look how difficult it was to receive almost apologies on the fence issue and PW.

I believe to get to the truth, it will take a group like IDC to get signed authentics records of fact from witnesses directly involved to press for the truth and transarency.

Now, if there is something I need to do, that I have not already done, I am open to suggestions.

Bepatient, it is okay. I have emailed ACE. I did not realize this rule. You two take it easy.

Ace did email me back and said he was not TW. Surely we can trust him....right?

ace said...
This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
david S said...

Charlie,
why don't you ignore ace and deal with the issues at hand? Stop shouting "ignore ace..." Okay, man... you're the one who keeps pointing at Ace.

So Charlie, what issues do you see as Scriptural issues that need to be addressed off of 25 list? What would you ghange?

Piglet said...

hezekiah said

Go back and read what Dr. Rogers said. BBC is committee run and it should stay that way.

Piglet says:

He also said it is congregationally approved. We have had little to nothing brought before the congregation for aproval or disapproval.

We are NOT happy with the work of the committees and we do NOT approve.

ace said...
This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
Bepatient said...

bbc,
whatever you think about Ace, I promise he is telling you the truth.

Piglet said...

davids said

To continue to talk about shoes and hint at the issues won't bring change. As a group, refine those issues down, unify and press them.

Piglet says:

We have requesteddocuments that are due us by law, as church members. That law has been broken. I believe this may be our current priority.

What are they hiding? They are outside the law already. Maybe they are doctoring the documents before they release them?

Esther said...

"So what issues on the list are SCRIPTURAL issues? "

Guidelines for a minister/elder. Gaines ignored them when he found out about PW. He is the seminary educated and trained pastor. I am an ignorant peasant and know instinctively that he would have to go immediately then inform the congregation. (No matter what the worldly costs)

This is very serious. It goes to show his lack of ability for such a position as 'shepherd'. What other biblical precepts is he ignoring?

david S said...

Piglet,

I think you hit the nail on the head. When Josh Manning asked for the documents and was refused, the law was being broken. I'm sure (or I think I'm sure) Josh would have followed up on that legally.

That should be added to 25's list: (Under open policies)

charlie fox said...

david s,

I don't shout, I EMPHASIZE. Big difference.

ACE has been permanently banned from this blog by the administrator and ACE knows it.

david S said...

Issues of serious Biblical concern:
1. That the church is not acting legally in regard to its membership.
2. That the church has not protected it’s people from known predators.
3. Financial matters are not dealt with openly. (Salary, benevolance offering)
... keep going

BBC Refugee said...

Maybe someone can shed some light while I am on the subject.

Is it true that BBC is planning to start a SG Television Ministry?

Is it true that sets have been made to tape DG for TV?

Is it true that Tim Whitehorn is involved in setting SG up for a new SG Television Ministry?

If so, what is BBC financial commitment to this?

Would something like this be voted on by the congregation?

It has been asked directly to SG and I ask here...

Paraphrased:
(Before SG got to BBC)BBC has been without a Pastor. You have been writing books, going to revivals, and other speaking engagements and have not been available to the flock. We were told that you would be more accesible than anyone before. That you would be seen all over the church because you like to be among your people. Pastor, do you have time to be our Pastor?

Esther said...

Gaines has gone to some lengths to keep his salary secret. You would think with all the hullaballoo, he would make it available. for the sake of transparancy and example of a shepherd. Sure would end lots of specualations and questions. Why hide it?

Does anyone recall Pauls words about not being a 'burden' when the church questioned him about money?

Esther said...

Members have a right to see the financials. I have heard the excuses: Committee rule and elder rule. Neither of them matter. A member should be able to request financials and recieve a copy.

What are the arguments against that?

Most Baptist churches make this available at least 2x a year.

david S said...

Esther:

"I robbed other churches by receiving support from them so as to serve you. And when I was with you and needed something, I was not a burden to anyone, for the brothers who came from Macedonia supplied what I needed. I have kept myself from being a burden to you in any way, and will continue to do so." 2 Cor. 11:8-10

Esther said...

There is a push within Baptist circles for churches to go to elder rule. Right now, can anyone tell me how Bellevue is operated? By Committee? Is that in theory?

I do not have a problem with elder rule if the spiritual guidelines of the Beatitudes, Titus and Timothy are the criteria. Usually it is not. Usually the guidelines are worldly titles.

So, how is Bellevue operating now?

charlie fox said...

David s,

I Tim. 3

Trollcates said...

What do you guys do now? Can y'all fathom a splinter church, instead of just going your separate ways into other congregations, if there is just no way to reconcile the body at Bellevue?

I hope that you will, because you have the basis here for artcles of faith, church governance, vetting leadership, etc(!). This way, You could, in fact, move on, deliberate and assertive, discuss the matter of healing and establishing trust, openly, without feeling the need to just swallow what you know in your heart to be fundementally wrong, no matter how apologists will couch it.

On a different note, I know I seem blase about this shoe business and (the clownish behavior) of Ace (bandage), but quit sniping with communications that have no other purpose than to introduce flak--as opposed to a conversation, in the sense of sober give and take--is an ill pursuit with this bunch. As long as your talking about the shoes, they're happy whatever turn in the thread.

Now, sometimes, rather than take his leads or pretend he's not there, I like to send a lil' flak bak. Sorry Charlie. ;}

Even if I still cannot buy premillinialism, you truthseekers are a real inspiration.

Esther said...

I believe Gaines is a 'hireling'. (See John). I see no evidence that he has behaved as a shepherd in any of the incidences described here.

Not only did he not act like a shepherd climbing that silly fence. I have to wonder what HIS reaction would be if four deacons who disagreed with him did the same thing to him.

Gaines has also enabled his staff to violate scriptural commands on all these things. PW, etc. That, to me, is the worst example of a shepherd of all.

david S said...

Charlie,
what are you talking about? I was answering Esther's question...

Piglet said...

My sister said that at her church the membership knows exactly what the pastor makes and she wouldn't have it any other way.

I imagine the mega churches are overpaying the pastors and can't reveal the salary for that reason.

But, why can't they give him an "adequate" salary, keeping in mind that the bigger the church, the more opportunities for extra speaking engagements, book deals, etc.

Dr. Gaines seems to be inconvenienced with pastoring, what with all the other pursuits he is involved in.

Mega pastors don't really do MORE work than the pastorsof smaller churches. They have a larger staff to delegate to.

charlie fox said...

esther said....

I do not have a problem with elder rule if the spiritual guidelines of the Beatitudes, Titus and Timothy are the criteria.

Before I reply, please define elder for me.

Piglet said...

trollcates

You are so right.

These antagonists (not you, Dee) would much rather discuss shoes.

When I brought up bylaws and the state and federal laws that were being broken, they just ignored me.

charlie fox said...

david S said...
Charlie,
what are you talking about? I was answering Esther's question...

Reply:

Sorry, sir. My apologies. I was merely answering your question to me.

Piglet said...

My little trashcan is so cute!!


Trollcates, I wish you had one.

( not that you need one as much as some OTHER people around here...)

Esther said...

charlie: VERY GOOD QUESTION!

I was reading about it in Acts just last night. David, if you see something wrong here correct me!

The 'early church' leaders were busying themselves doing administrative tasks such as doling out money to widows, etc. It was decided that 'deacons' would be appointed for these 'administrative' chores. (although those titles are not used in Acts.)

Elders were to 'minister' to the flock. Teaching, preaching, praying, evangelizing, etc. Elder rule was NEVER meant to be administrative. It was meant to be a 'shepherd' role.

As a matter of fact, no where that I can find in scriptures do churches have ONE pastor teaching and preaching to the group assembled. We are told to use corporate gifts to worship. One teaches, one prophesies, etc.

david S said...

Even if I still cannot buy premillinialism ...

Ahhhhh, music to my ears.

2006Huldah said...

David S said...

Dee,
Do you recall exactly what it is he said about shoes? Was it specifically about shoes?

2:21 PM, February 01, 2007

****
Then he said...

Dee,
I think the most important thing is not to check Ace. He's lost credibility anyway! The important thing is to get focused on what really matters. Get that list back out (forgot whose list it was) and revisit the key issues. Hold staff's feet to the fire on those. (and, personally, I would probably drop the shoes thing... not that it's not valid, it is, but nothing can be done about it now and it sounds petty even if it's not).

4:09 PM, February 01, 2007
*****

Tell me, David. If you wanted the shoes topic dropped, then why did you ask me additional questions? What was your point?

I was not the one to launch the initial conversation with Ace so why don't you address your complaint or suggestion to him. I am tired of just sitting by while he gets away with saying everything his way. His statements are misleading to those who read this blog. I will tell you just like I told him--it's not about shoes. It's about telling us not to spend our money on expensive shoes and then buying them for himself--a double standard. It's breaking laws like trespassing and failing to report or rid the BBC hallways of a confessed sexual predator, and who knows what else? He has mocked the very congregation that pays his exorbitant salary, and in so doing, he is mocking God. He thinks he is above the rules and the law. He's in charge so he is the one who is accountable for all of this mess. His lack of openness and transparency from the beginning is what has gotten us to this point. Why? Don't you wonder why? What is he hiding? Why are they holding onto so much money? Why aren't they using it for the Lord's work? That's what it's for. Personally, the Lord Himself is probably going to be behind the exit of Steve Gaines from Bellevue; otherwise, he ain't leavin'. Somebody else might get to see what's going on if he leaves, and we can't have that, can we? And, therein, lies the problem. Pray, everyone. Just pray. I am done with this blog for the evening.

Dee

Esther said...

Dee! You go, girl!

Bepatient said...

I don't ignore you piglet, I just try to keep from fighting!

I have never shied away from any of those conversations and I would much rather that we NEVER EVER EVER talk about the shoes again. What a waste of time and energy!

So, don't lump us "antagonists" all in together. Although most might argue that our "side" is not the only one with "antagonists".

david S said...

Esther,
There were specific elders who "taught", thus they were wothy of "double honor." Other elders appear to have handled Admin. Deacons oversaw ministry.

Here's the kicker: No single church had all the qualities! Some church's seem to have been pastor lead (Corinth) others like a synaogue (Jerusalem) and others with elders (Crete). No one style of church government was more sanctified than another. And I'm still waiting for a Biblical example of Congregational rule... ?

Trollcates said...

Ahhhhh, music to my ears.

Sarcasm or veracity? Please expound, brah.

Piglet said...

I've certainly been doing more praying lately, Dee.

Thanks for encouraging me when I have been discouraged. :)

Love you sister.

Til later...

david S said...

Dee,

Sorry. i missed the shoe thing... exactly what he said. It sounded petty, but then there appeared to be an actual quote. I did want to know what he said... but it doesn't appear to be the center of your concerns, I'm sure you would agree. My apologies for working both sides there!

david S said...

Trollcates,

ahhhh, so refreshing! A man who seeks after what the Bible says, not Scofield. Pre has only been around for a couple hundred years... out of 2,000 years of Chrstianity. Nice to know I'm not alone rejecting pre mil.

Thanks for asking me to expound... I will be destoryed now... the deathstar is on the horizon...

Esther said...

"And I'm still waiting for a Biblical example of Congregational rule... ? "

I think it was a natural reaction to the reformed state church and the magistrates. Burning at the stake can be painful. ;o)

Doesn't make it Biblical but I hope you get my drift. I have quite a bit of respect for those Anabaptists that burned at the stake because they refused to join the state church along with unbelievers and refused to have thier babies baptized and refused to believe the bread was really Jesus. All things that took place within the early reformed church.

I blame it all on Constantine. He 'structured' the church in a way that we have lost the NT meaning.

Piglet said...

davids

Whether we're premil or not, we're going up when HE decides. :D

I'm ready!

(Piglet looking heavenward..)

Esther said...

"Pre mill has only been around for a couple hundred years... out of 2,000 years of Chrstianity."

David, don't go there. I guess I am to believe everything happening in Isreal is just coincidence?

Trollcates said...

Well, Scofield holds no water with me. That's what I was raised on--what's the alternative?

Esther said...

(I gotta go do mommy stuff..practice is over)

David, I look forward to reading some of your responses. God Bless!

Trollcates said...

Hey, didn't mean to start an argument; just been out of the church a while--I thought premil was part of the canon in the protestant faith.

Piglet said...

(piggie offline)

david S said...

Esther,
I had a deacon come up to me during Israel's last war. "Pastor, isn't this supposed to happen during the tribulation?"

I stared at him, "Uh, what's the problem with that?"

(Try reading Worthy Is The Lamb, by ray Summers --Southern baptist seminary)

"Well! We haven't been raptured!"

I smiled, "Right. You find a rapture in the Scripture and get back with me."

Oh, he's not gotten back.

I shouldn't be going there... it's a distraction (not on purpose becuase end times is a passion)... back to subject...

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