David Brown has requested that a story he received from a woman who for privacy purposes calls herself "Rachel" be featured in it's own topic heading. David introduces her to you here...
My dear brothers and sisters:
Much has been said in regards to the handling of this "moral failure." Most of you know I am critical of it.
I am attaching an email from a hurting family. I received it this morning. I do have permission as you will see to publish it. It will rip your heart out. They are not members of Bellevue as I understand, yet the actions, or rather inactions, of Dr. Gaines have inflicted hurt on them. Every parent should read this and take heed. We must do EVERYTHING we can possibly do to protect our children. Any less is to fail them. And that is not acceptable.
Once again if you SUSPECT abuse you report it, immediately! Not six months later. The subject line in Rachel's email to me was this: "Just another example of how the Pastor's delay has hurt."
David Brown
SNAP coordinator of West Tennessee and Memphis
Related articles:
Voice to Stop Baptist Predators
Associated Baptist Press
Wendi Thomas in the Commercial Appeal
Stop Baptist Predators Blog
Subscribe to:
Post Comments (Atom)
613 comments:
1 – 200 of 613 Newer› Newest»RACHEL'S LETTER
There was a day not so long ago when I would never believe anyone could read this first hand account of child rape and not sob. Today I am not so sure....I am sickened at the responses I have gotten from some of the very people I call brothers and sisters at BBC.
The only good part of that real life drama (if you can call it good) is that the family knew immediately.
THE WORLD IS WATCHING HOW WE HANDLE THIS CHILD MOLESTATION IN OUR CHURCH!!
We cannot just say it was 17 years ago..
We cannot say Oh it was compassion or mercy from SG for PW..
WE cannot accept 'it is under the blood'
We cannot accept it was a mistake to not tell the church.
We cannot accept PW being left in his position for 6 months..
We cannot accept him being put on paid leave so he will cooperate..
We cannot accept he was invited back to BBC for meetings and who knows what else by SG right under our noses..
WE cannot dare allow him to get hush money or anything else.
WE NEED A SHEPHERD TO PROTECT US FROM UNREPENTANT WOLVES!!
PW COULD HAVE REPENTED AND LEFT THE MINISTRY 17 YEARS AGO , BEEN RESTORED AND BROUGHT BACK AS A BROTHER AND NOT A MINISTER! he choose not to do what is right even by worldly reason..
SG and PW are men who know GOD'S WORD. They know they are not following it.. This is not about ignorant people making ignorant mistakes.
We cannot run from one church to another looking for a church home thinking we will be safe..
We can stay or leave as God directs but WE MUST STILL FIGHT TO SAVE THE CHILDREN AND OTHER VICTIMS....THEY NEED US...
WE NEED EACH OTHER!
We must press on for truth, transparency, honesty with the full armor of GOD!!
JESUS IS THE KEY
http://www.abpnews.com
/www/1633.article
Praise GOD for men like
DR. MIKE SPRADLIN and others like him!
WE MUST SUPPORT THOSE WHO STAND FOR REAL TRUTH AND LIGHT, JESUS THE CHRIST.
Jesus is the Key
Oh, Rachel--
My heart is broken for you. I have thought and felt the EXACT same things you have shared in your letter--you are not alone! I will pray for you and your family every day as I pray for my own family. I wish I could comfort you. I'm so sorry, my sister, that this horrible sin has affected your lives! God Bless You and thank you for sharing your story. Many people just don't fully understand the impact of the actions of pedophiles and those who keep their behaviors "in confidence." Your experience will hopefully bring a greater understanding to some of those people. I'll be praying for God to give you and your family His peace, comfort, healing, protection, and strength.
keynoteseeker--I agree with your post. I am grieved by the responses of my church "family" members almost as much as I am disgusted and furious at Paul Williams and Steve Gaines.
I guess I'll stop here--I can hear my heart pounding in my ears.
David Brown--Thank you for sharing Rachel's story. Thank you for your unwavering determination to help the precious children who have been ravaged by pedophiles. God Bless You and I'm praying for you too.
Yes, thanks David and "Rachel" for sharing this story. It's powerful, to say the least.
If you guys haven't read it yet, please take a few minutes to do so. It could not be more relevant right now.
Fascinating and perhaps very timely sermon on "Avoiding the Pitfalls of Superficial Forgiveness."
http://www.rbc.org/uploadedFiles/
Bible_Study/Discovery_Series/
PDFs/avoiding_the_dangers_of
_superficial_forgiveness.pdf
(Sorry, NASS, but can't make a link ...)
I know it's been said ad nasem, but what a sad sad day it is when Dr. Spradlin and his family are ostracized and slandered by the pulpit and pulpit supporters because he spoke the truth, yet the pulpit and supporters are working overtime to defend and 'protect' PW. (To say nothing for the apparent lack of concern for CW).
Why is it that in these sorts of situations, the tendency is to "blame the victim"? It shocked me when this first came out, that some people I spoke with, including a current deacon, said things like "Why's he (CW) bringing this up now?" The implication was that CW forced this issue back in June, just to bring down the pastor!!!!!! I couldn't believe my ears!! This boy had been raped by his father, a well respected minister of the gospel. WHAT a betrayal! Who knows what CW has been going through for 17 years? And all we are concerned about is political fallout for the church leadership!!! My response was that he and I could not understand the psychology involved in such a situation, but I was taken aback by this attitude from someone I still think of as a godly man.
I'm going to present a theory. Most people today have "secret sins" of their own. Sins that they would be mortified if others found out about. Combine that with the effect of the pop culture with it's humanistic theology of "immorality is cool" through movies, music and television (e.g. "Friends") has dulled our sense of outrage at "moral failures". We watch these people get "caught" and we see ourselves getting "caught". We don't want to see consequences, because then we have to face the fact we might have to suffer them ourselves. This is exactly why there must be public censure of this sin in our pulpit! It sends a loud and clear message to everyone that sin is sin, and will have consequences. Who knows who out there might be on the edge of committing some similar sin? This might be the testimony and message they need to hear to pull them back from the brink!
Growing up, I observed many inconsistencies in Christian ministries in the areas of sexual sin. On one hand, it was taught that to engage in sexual activity outside of marriage was almost tantamount to spiritual suicide. Even if no one found out, God put a big huge "mark" on you, and you would be forever scarred.
And then on the other hand, there sure seemed to be a lot of sexual activity outside of marriage within these churches (including my time in the Singles at BBC) and other ministries, and the people involved more often than not (unless it reached the scandal level) seemed to lives fairly consequence free lives. In fact, I was involved in one Christian ministry at one time in my life that is a nationwide ministry not based in Memphis, where there were some top leaders who had "moral failures", and the head of the ministry had to be forced to deal with it, because they were "favorites". However, until public pressure and his Board of Trustees forced the issue, he was doing all he could do to just make it go away.
(of course, sometimes you do remain pure, but suffer consequences, but what father of a daughter can't sympathize!)
This was all very confusing to this teenager and young single adult, who somehow managed to survive that time period. But there were times when I was like "God, what's the deal??"
We have collectively lost our moral compass's. Power and Position are more important to us than Purity. It's a sad truth, but the truth.
Dr. Spradlin, remember, score in this conflict is being kept in heaven. Don't listen to those who tell you that your responsibility is to "maintain unity" and show "support" for the Pastor no matter what. Following Jesus sometimes means division, even in the Body. Matthew 10:34-39 and Luke 12:49-53.
Sorry for the link to Wikipedia, but I kinda liked the commentary attached. I prefer commentaries that aren't written (as far as I know) by professional theologians.
Just a reminder to everyone that Steve Gaines is still a keynote speaker at the Conference for Pastors at Jacksonville, FL which starts the first week of February. I encourage you to email the pastor at First Baptist of Jacksonville, Mac Brunson, to kindly ask him to reconsider having Steve Gaines on the agenda until this dark cloud has passed and questions have been answered. You can email Dr. Brunson by going to their website at this link: http://www.fbcjax.com/about_us/contact.html and scrolling the "To" list to "Pastor" and send him a message. Please be polite in your request; perhaps if enough people email him he might reconsider.
friendinjax
I appreciate your spirit, but I really don't think that this appropriate. Mac Brunson is surely well aware of this situation, and hopefully he is Spiritually sensitive enough to discern who should and shouldn't speak at his conference.
Also, bringing pressure on Dr. Gaines in this manner would be counter productive. It really smacks of vindictiveness.
Keep in mind, Dr. Gaines constantly speaking outside of Belleuve is a separate issue. First year as pastor of a large church like Belleuve, and he grumbles about how hard it's been to get his arms around it, and learn Belleuve and get to know us, you'd think he'd focus on us first. And over the past 6-7 months, as the church has been on the edge of falling apart, I really think his responsibility is to stay here. Aren't we paying him enough where he doesn't have to "moonlight" to pay the housenote?
But whatever.
financeguy said:
I prefer commentaries that aren't written (as far as I know) by professional theologians.
response: because hebrew and greek is a waste of time?????? Because after all the original language of the bible was english. So really all we need is english teachers!
the mormon church doesnt have "professional theologians" or professional ministry staff.
financeguy
I disagree. There can be no vindictiveness on the part of a Christian respectfully emailing Mac Brunson to express a conviction that it would be wrong for Steve Gaines to given a platform to speak to thousands of pastors from literally around the world while this matter is still being investigated by BBC and the DA. Neither can it be vindictive on the part of Mac Brunson calling Steve Gaines and explaining that he believes it best for Steve to not speak this year given the circumstances, and Mac's desire not to have Steve Gaines appearance as an issue at the conference. I'm sure Steve Gaines would understand that.
fg,
I appreciate your spirit
I really don't think
focus on us first
get to know us
I really think
Aren't we paying him enough
But whatever.
And who is the center of the universe?
FG, did you ever get to post on the by-laws vs congregationally approved post for me? If so I might have missed it.
Heavenly Father, please help us follow the Ten Commandments. Help us to read today's text from the Bible (USA english) ("thou shalt" english). Please be with Rachel's family and CW's family. Please let the Great Commission move forward today in Bhutan. In Jesus's name, Amen.
Thank you for this new thread, "Rachel's Story - The Risk of Ignoring a "Moral Failure""
friendinjax wrote:
I disagree. There can be no vindictiveness on the part of a Christian respectfully emailing Mac Brunson to express a conviction that it would be wrong for Steve Gaines to given a platform to speak to thousands of pastors from literally around the world while this matter is still being investigated by BBC and the DA.
It all depends on the motivation of the heart, because that's what God cares about. If you feel like it's inappropriate for Dr. Gaines to speak, then you should write.
If you see this as another opportunity to lash out at SG in anger, then think twice before writing. Mac Brunson can probably tell the difference and you'll do more harm than good.
EZ, thanks. :)
friendinfax,
Would you email me please?
Thanks...Ima
financeguy wrote:
I'm going to present a theory...
fg,
Am I to interpret your theory as suggesting that those who don't want PW and SG to receive the third degree are the ones hiding their own secret sins? Surely that's not what you meant. Our brothers and sisters have already taken enough abuse, I think.
I'm sure you realize how legalistic your solution is. It's not a bad short-term solution, but it won't really solve anything. Didn't Paul say that no law could save us? Only growing up in Christ has permanence.
A careful study of Galatians 3 might be in order.
terry smith,
I do not understand your hostility and unnecessarily hateful sarcasm, and refuse to get in a 'flame war' with you. I'm going to address your comment, but only to clarify to others, since you apparently have an ax to grind against me. Unless you are the Terry Smith that was in the BBC choir years ago, (were you?) I don't even think you know me.
First, I think you misunderstand the purpose of Bible Commentaries in the academic sense. They are not to teach the hebrew and greek, but it's to provide thoughts on current application of Scripture passages. Something a lay person is quite capable of doing.
Second, as my father graduated from a Southern Baptist Seminary, I had and have access to a large library of Bible commentaries from "professional theologians". While they are useful in study, you have to be careful. They are full of the attendant opinions slanted by the views of the author on contemporary culture and values. I don't even have to get into explaining the various bias, including simply the need for people in the academic community to get published, and be considered "respected" in their fields. Ask yourself this question. For instances, why is there the need for multiple commentaries on the book of Psalms?
Third, "commentary" from lay people is helpful because they don't have academic bias. You don't have the "I have a PhD in theology, and you are just a ditch digger" card thrown at you. As they are in the "ditches" with you, they can often provide better practical application observations than the highbrow who never gets his hands dirty enough to have to wash them.
the Mormon church doesn't have "professional theologians" or professional ministry staff.
Fourth, this is just a silly statement. Are you saying that since probably 90% of the Sunday School teachers at Bellevue and other churches are not "professional theologians", they are not able to give good "Bible Commentary" and are no better than Mormons? Since there are a number of members of Bellevue "professional ministry staff" that haven't been to seminary, any Bible teaching from them is suspect? I suppose Dr. Rogers was wrong to have Bob Sorrell preach as he was not a "professional theologian". Find his seminary degree at that link. I couldn't. In your hateful world, Greg Addison, who was the Singles minister before he went to pastor a church in Arkansas is "no better than a Mormon" because he doesn't have an Academic, Seminary education.
Lastly, even assuming you are correct, even professional theologians write in English in this country, and I know I'm making a big assumption here, but I assume your average church member isn't fluent in Greek and Hebrew, hence in this county, most commentary is in English.
And since you are so concerned about lay people having access to Greek and Hebrew, my Strong's concordance is sufficient for this purpose. In fact, I find myself using it more often these days, because Dr. Steve Gaines has a tendency to "shoehorn" Scripture to fit what he wants to say, picking and choosing among translations to find the "right" wording. I know of others besides myself who do this, and discover that he isn't always accurate to the original languages. I challenge all of you, if a verse he puts on the screen doesn't seem "quite right", with what he's saying, look it up at home in a good Greek/Hebrew concordance. I've found errors before, the latest Sunday night two weeks ago.
Terry,
I suggest you repent of your hateful spirit, and then engage in discussion on here.
friendinjax - I have to agree with you. I think people blogging here would understand the point of writing Mac Brunson much better if they look at it from a different perspective. What if I was hosting a conference and they saw the headliner speakers to be 4545 and Ace. Immediately they would draw the reasonable inference that I agree with, and support, the views and actions of those two bloggers. I would think some of them might even question my motives for having those two speak. I certainly wouldn't be surprised if a few of them emailed me to ask that I not give ACE and 4545 the platform in front of thousands of uninformed pastors while this matter is ongoing.
The self-serving nature of this blog has became very evident to me. I posted a brief message last night--my first one--about treating each other with respect and that Christian maturity calls us to a higher standard than bad-mouthing each other, etc. I also said that people like ACE and MIKE BRATTON were not the enemies here (even though they are picked on unmercilessly like they were the devil himself.) So what happened? My post was quickly deleted!
It is so apparent that bike-biting, slander, harsh words, and hate can be spewed about on here but common sense and decency cannot be tolerated unless one is a "Gaines hater."
By the way, I am not saying that I am a "Gaines lover" (he has certainly made mistakes). But the blog administrator must think I am; otherwise, why would he have deleted my post?
This is all very hypocritical to me and leaves a very bad taste in my mouth!
Financeguy,
You posted recently that Mike Spradlin had been "slandered by the pulpit." How so? (I am asking this as an honest question, not to be confrontational.)
Ralphie, I saw your post last night and I have no idea why it would be deleted. Maybe you could email NASS and find out her thinking as to why it was taken off the forum.
faithnhope
Am I to interpret your theory as suggesting that those who don't want PW and SG to receive the third degree are the ones hiding their own secret sins? Surely that's not what you meant. Our brothers and sisters have already taken enough abuse, I think.
I think you misunderstand my point. I believe the Bible teaches that we all have sinned. I believe that most people have sin in their past (or present) that they would prefer not be a 5 oclock news item, or front page above the fold news item. Add human nature to the desensitizing of the culture by Hollywood and it's cohorts, and you have a recipe for the flesh to not want to deal with any sin in a Biblical manner.
If you don't like my theory, why don't you suggest another reason there have been so many people who have sought to push this under the rug, and attack both the victim and those who wish to hold him accountable. Since I posted the last comment, I was told there is a very hateful rumor going around about the current emotional and physical state of the victim. I know for a FACT this is untrue, and can only be designed to further attack his credibility.
You say that my solution is legalistic? Legalism is an interesting word. Like the word "Liberal", it can mean different things to different people in different situations. Maybe this is legalistic to some people, but it's certainly Biblical. Jesus must have been the original legalist, as he taught such public repentance and restoration. I suppose Dr. Rogers was legalistic when he brought JG to the stage and had him read his letter of resignation.
I'm not even going to comment on your suggestion that I'm abusing brothers and sisters in Christ.
ralphie said...
Financeguy,
You posted recently that Mike Spradlin had been "slandered by the pulpit." How so? (I am asking this as an honest question, not to be confrontational.)
If you only knew about the meetings in the Pastors' conference room, the phone calls to the seminary, the vicious attacks by David Perdue, the way his wife is being treated like a pariah at Bellevue, the conversations amongst deacons and others calling his character into question.
For instance, someone related to amember of the Pastors search committee said to me "I guess that he and the seminary have sucked all out of Bellevue they can huh? hahahah". Another comment "How is this any of his business? He's biting the hand that feds him." Another person told me "he's just mad because he wanted to be pastor of Belleuve."
It goes on and on. How Dr. Gaines and the "inner circle" as well as their supporters in the deacons have reacted to Dr. Spradlin should be very telling to honest people.
Guys,
Trying to get Dr. Gaines kicked out of the Jax conference is not a good use of energy. You will be perceived as interlopers with an ax to grind. It won't work and will continue to make you/us look bad. If you are so opposed, then just don't go! Max Brunson is well aware of who Steve Gaines is and this situation. In fact, if I were Max Brunson I wouldn't rescind the invitation for no other reason that I don't want to be a headline on Haywood's site!
memphis,
no I haven't, but I will.
Financeguy,
I thought you meant that Steve Gaines had slandered Mike Spradlin from the pulpit. I knew I had not heard that; only the Wednesday night comment right after the Commercial Appeal article when he said he still loved Mike Spradlin--or something to that effect.
How reliable are your sources about these things being said about Spradlin? (Again, just an honest question--no confrontation intended here.)
FG, feel free to email me with it whenever you get time if you would prefer. Thanks
david s,
I say this out of pure Brotherly Love. You need to lighten up and back off on imaresistor.
1. I know who imarsistor is and imaresistor's story. You have imaresistor figured ALL WRONG.
2. As a pastor, you are seriously damaging your credibility and witness.
henry,
Pastor's Gaines comments from the pulpit are are odds with his private comments and actions.
There were a number of people present in the December 23rd meeting, and that story has been corroborated to be by people directly involved, but I'm not going to repeat it on here.
I cannot speak as to how I know his wife is being treated without breaking confidences, but let's just say that I don't understand why she continues to come to BBC and teach Sunday School and MAC.
My dear brother and sisters: Today this blog is being followed by the entire nation. Rachel's story had been picked up and being re-published nationally. The enitre country is watching. I have been contacted by several media outlets not from Memphis. This hurting and wounding sister is trying to tell you something you need to hear.
And what is happening? We have fellow saints going at each other with a lot of passion. Where is your passion for what is going on in most of our Baptist churches? If you doubt me, click on the links at the start of this thread.
Please let's not look stupid to a world that thinks we are a bunch of nuts anyway. PLEASE LET'S STAY ON THIS THREAD'S TOPIC and quit getting into arguments because someone disagrees with you. They are entitled to their opinons. Let it go at that. Go back and look on the last thread to the comments 4545 made about me. Learn from it. PLEASE?
Thank you 4545.
David Brown
SNAP coordinator of West Tennessee and Memphis
financeguy wrote: "Growing up, I observed many inconsistencies in Christian ministries in the areas of sexual sin."
I agree with your comments. If anything it seems leaders err on the side of quick, easy forgiveness and totally ignoring the teaching of regeneration and sanctification.
Of course, I will be slammed for saying this but it is very true whether we want to believe it or not: Someone who sodomizes their son has no fruit. Add to that a minister who did not publicly repent and remove himself from his position and we have to ask ourselves: Was he pretending to be a Christain for all those years?
We are so quick to label anyone a Pharisee who dares point this out. But Jesus told us that you would not find thorns on a fig tree.
We have really bought into the cheap grace of: Sinners sin. Yes they do but if they love the Lord with all their heart, they are appalled by their sin and are in continual repentance growing in Holiness.
For pastors to dismiss these henious sins so easily really blows my mind. Rachal's story really got to me because I allow my young daughter to run out to the restroom all the time while we are doing something at church (not during worship). Not anymore.
For this pastor and Steve Gaines to keep these dark secrets is a crime in two ways. Number one, protecting the innocent (Millstone anyone?) and Number two: 1 Corinthians.
We have also cheapened repentance thinking it is words such as, 'I am sorry' and 'Please forgive me'. It is not. It is an action. A turning away and a change of heart. It could take years to know if true repentance has taken place. And yes, we are allowed to judge that. Otherwise, He would not have taught, By their fruit, you will know them.
Gaines has shown a lack of respect and love, not only for scripture, but for the victim, the congregation (his sheep) and even Paul Williams.
All of this because he refused to follow scripture.
FinanceGuy said...
I cannot speak as to how I know his wife is being treated without breaking confidences, but let's just say that I don't understand why she continues to come to BBC and teach Sunday School and MAC.
Reply:
Oh, but you do understand!!!!
I doubt that Mac Brunson will reconsider having SG on the agenda at First Baptist of Jacksonville, Fl.
However, ask your self what are these people going to be thinking about when he gets on the platform to speak to thousands of pastors around the world?
They may choose to tune him out-under the circumstances surrounding BBC.
jmho
David, Does the SBC have a central office were people can report these things? Then if a pulpit committee wants to inquire about a prospective pastor they have a place to check and see if there has been any abuse or protecting of abusers?
Does the SBC cooperate in these matters?
Dear Friends, Years ago, a friend of mine who was a rape crisis counselor invited me to tag along while she and some other counselors interviewed pedophiles at a prison so I could write about it.
It was the most harrowing experience of my life. I am disgusted even thinking about it.
Each pedophile told of how they plotted and planned each encounter and always on the look out for prey.
Each one told how they used 'threats' and 'bribes' to keep the victims silent. (Wonder if CW had that done to him as a child or teen?)
And each pedophile admitted it was all they thought about even in prison. It was almost as if counseling made them think about it more!
I will be the first to admit that in Christ anything is possible. But we have not seen the fruit of that in PW. How could that man teach scripture to anyone? It boggles my mind.
Gaines needs to go. He failed to take this situation as serious as it warrants. He failed to follow the precepts of our Lord in scripture.
finance guy said: but let's just say that I don't understand why she continues to come to BBC and teach Sunday School and MAC.
Because the girls she is teaching are seniors and she has been with them since 11th grade. It was tough for us to leave our 3rd graders that we'd had for only 5 months. I'm sure her love for the girls she's taught for the last year-and-a-half makes it worth enduring any ill-treatment she might be enduring. (I have no knowledge of any such treatment, just addressing financeguys' statement and question.)
My dear Sister in Christ, Rachael,
I sit here weeping. I wish that I could put my arms around you and your sweet family, especially your precious, innocent son.
Please, to the rest of you, STOP IT!!!
This is OUR problem...not just Rachael's..
Let's all join together to fight this. This is NOT the time to attack one another.
Let's not focus on the things we disagree on, but rather, let's focus on the things we can agree on: and that is this:
WE NEED TO FOCUS ON CHILDHOOD SEXUAL ABUSE IN OUR CHURCHES!!!!
There are children at BBC that are being sexually abused by someone. What message do we send them when the adults fight among ourselves over things that don't matter. Are we going to look the other way? Are we going to send them the message that their abuse doesn't matter to us as much as whether or not someone's post was deleted on here?
Please, my brothers and sisters in Christ, PLEASE...!!!! I am begging you...please can we focus on the REAL problem?
Rachel, you are being held up in prayer at this very moment by my family and by me. I will never forget you or your son.
I pray that God will find a way to heal your pain, and use it to his glory.
jcsuitt,
Just wondering, do you see any correlation between Rachel's story and what has happened at BBC?
sickofthelies wrote: "There are children at BBC that are being sexually abused by someone. What message do we send them when the adults fight among ourselves over things that don't matter. Are we going to look the other way? Are we going to send them the message that their abuse doesn't matter to us as much as whether or not someone's post was deleted on here?"
Boy, this is so true. What message is this church sending some little girl or boy sitting in the pew who has been molested? Or even an adult who is still carrying this secret with them?
As of now, the message is: What happens to the perpetrator seems much more important to the adults than what happened to me.
That is the message being sent. Not only to your congregation but to congregations all over the US.
Who could blame them for thinking that? We have heard every excuse known to man why it was ok for Gaines to keep this a secret. "Under the blood" is especially insulting to not only victim but to our Lord.
david s said...
David,
What can pastors do to protect children when we KNOW preditors attend the church? Obviously we don't let them work with children... what more should we be doing?
Reply:
Read Rachel's letter and you will find your answer!!!!!
Just for the record,
If Dr. R. had ignored the confession of PW and allowed him to stay on staff, I would be calling for HIS head, too.
This is not about trying to bring any ADULT down. It is about protecting our children from child predators.
That stands alone. To suggest that all of this is just to bring down Steve Gaines is a slap in the face to anyone who has ever been sexually abused. It minimizes the trauma of the abuse. It's as though the person is saying,
" oh, big deal...you just want to try to ruin SG"
Childhood Sexual abuse IS a big deal! It's not about SG, it's about keeping the children safe from predators!!!
It's not about Steve!!! It's about the children!!!!!
When I see comments that indicate that all of this is just about bringing down SG, it makes me wonder why the person cannot grasp the fact of how horrible childhood sexual abuse is. They just skip over that part and go straight to the defense mode of protecting SG..
Are our children not worth protecting?
Why does SG warrant more protection that our children?
Esther,
Thank you my sister. You said it best when you said:
As of now, the message is: What happens to the perpetrator seems much more important to the adults than what happened to me.
Response:
I have been searching, groping for the right words, and you are exactly right!!!
I hope that all will read Esther's words and think about what these children in the pews are thinking.
One in 5 children are sexually molested. That means that on any given Sunday morning, there are children in those pews that are watching..hoping that this crime will be recognized, to give their pain and hurt validation.
Right now..all they can do is sink lower in their chair, knowing that what is happening to them is not nearly as bad as what happens to the perpetrator and the one who would protect him.
May God have mercy on us.
Interesting article in Baptist Press today:
http://www.baptistpress.org/bpnews.asp?ID=24831
Dear Rachel,
Your letter just breaks my heart. We have no idea the pain you and your son and family suffered. May God less you and wrap his arms around your family as I am weeping with you. Thank you for sharing with us your horrifying experience.
Please folks, read Rachel’s letter and be in prayer for her, her precious son, and her family. They need your prayers. So please – call out to our Lord and pray for them.
David, also thank you for bringing Rachel to our attention. We do so much appreciate your work with God’s abused children.
And, those of you posting and arguing about whatever – please in the name of our Lord – stop it. Please stay on the subject for posting. God bless you each.
Lindon,
"Of course, I will be slammed for saying this but it is very true whether we want to believe it or not: Someone who sodomizes their son has no fruit. Add to that a minister who did not publicly repent and remove himself from his position and we have to ask ourselves: Was he pretending to be a Christain for all those years?"
Now wait a second... Judah slept with his prostitute daughter in law (by marriage to his dead son)... and Jesus reduces Himself to be called "Lion of the Tribe of Judah!"
Jacob was a polygamist, and yet we are all children of the "God of Jacob."
Shall we mention David, "The Man after God's Own Heart?"
What you said about him having "no fruit" is not true; it is validated nowhere in Scripture and you had no right to say it.
ed_t
I mean that rhetorically. Of course she loves those girls and children she serves. I also didn't mean to say she was being mistreated, it's just that reports are people who were once her close friends, are now working to put distance between them and her. At least those who are pulpit supporters.
moving on...
Dear Lindon, Christa Brown last year pleaded with the SBC in Nashville to do that. I think they claim to have one but do not give out information about it. That makes about as much sense as jumping out of an airplane without a parachute.
They claim each church is independent and the SBC assocation has no control over the church. Once again that is a lot of bull.
I cannot think of anything more important than seeing that our churches are safe for our children. If they can't be safe in church where can they be safe?
David S.: Read one of the last paragraphs in Rachel's letter and you will have your answer. To do anything less is a recipe for disaster. You run the risk of Rachel's story happening again and again and again.
I wish I could share you with you all the calls and emails that are coming in from all over the country. We are being watched. To those that have similar stories as Rachel, you are in my prayers. My heart aches for each and everyone of you.
I share with all of you this verse, 2Cor. 1:3-7. It will explain why I do what I do.
David Brown,
SNAP coordinator of West Tennessee and Memphis
secret meeting:
Here are the fruits of the spirit:
love, joy, peace, longsuffering, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, self-control.
Which one does the rape and sodomy of your son fall under?
Last night "ralphie's" post was deleted only because s/he hadn't made his/her profile visible at that time. Please read the rules before posting.
NBBCOF
jcsuitt,
Reading your comment, I can't help but think of the often repeated observation that Steve Gaines has become the measure of what's right and wrong. If you agree with him you are right, if you disagree your wrong.
If you think it's nonsense, then that's your progrative.
To address your comment:
First, It's been made abundantly clear by the pro-pulpit crowd that Dr. Gaines isn't Dr. Rogers, so he shouldn't be held to the same standard, so I would say it's "nonsense" to compare speaking schedules.
Second, Steve Gaines needs to decide if he wants to be pastor of Bellevue Baptist church, or just use us as a springboard for whatever ministry it is he's trying to launch, as well as gain prominence in the SBC. We are a hurting flock. Our beloved pastor died, there is open conflict in the church and he seems to be more focused on building an empire than tending the flock.
Again, just my humble opinion.
Thank you Esther and sickofthelies...this has been the issue my heart has been grieving about since the announcement about PW and SG's silence. The victims of PW are reinjured everytime someone makes light of this crime....(it was 17 years ago...where is the love or forgiveness....under the blood)or deflects away from the wrong done....all this compassion and mercy for SG and PW!! Maybe we are finally getting it??? Our passion,concern,and love SHOULD be for the victims! CW and the children we don't have names for... and the women who were used by PW for his sick agenda under the umbrello of protection of BBC.I am one of those women. I know how degraded I feel by the mindless comments of people so determined to defend SG or PW. Imagine how this precious young man feels....and the others. We all need to stop deceiving ourselves and deflecting away from the horrible reality. There is no way to excuse the decision made by SG. He can be unwise and classless and jump all the "itty bitty" fences he wants to but this action shows the lack of character,lack of wisdom,and lack of leadership ability and so many other things NOT fitting for a minister. Whatever the comment from D Coombs was ...again,protecting/defending PW and SG...would it be the same had one of his daughters fallen prey to PW????? How Mike Spradlin became the enemy in all this is beyond me. Thank you Mike for having the courage these other men do not have. Thank you David B. for standing in the gap for so many of us and thank you esther for putting the spotlight where it belongs.
Is pedophilia a form of idolatry?
We see people who get into false religions (I include atheism) or cults. Some of them become very obsessed, especially the "fundamentalists*." We even see such obsessions in the Bible with the various false religions that existed back then. We already saw mention of a "temple prostitue." This would mean that sex was part of a false religion as documented in Genesis. Temple prostitution actually was also part of some of the Greco-Roman cults like the cults of Aphrodite, Venus ("goddess of love").
People who become obsessed with false religions seem to close themselves off from hearing the gospel or even considering it.
When loving God is not 100% obeyed as our number one priority, we are at risk for falling into idolatry just as quickly as people in false religions. We have to constantly be on gaurd not to set up our religious leaders as idols. Our religious leaders have to constantly be careful to turn down praise that is too high.
Money, power, reputation, career, sex, sports, food, material posessions, etc.
So many things can become obsessions, even things that are not inherently wrong.
Of course obsessions are even worse when they involve things that ****are**** inherently against God's will such as violations of the Ten Commandments: stealing, telling lies, dishonoring parents, coveting, murdering people in our hearts, misusing the Lord's name, not having a weekly day of rest (either Saturday or Sunday), adultery.
In Christ alone is our hope of being saved from our fallen sin nature. And only through keeping Christ first is our hope of changing our fallen sin nature.
*"Fundamentalist" is a good word ***when talking about Christians.*** But to be a fundamentalist of some other religion is to be far away from Christ. That is a bad place to be.
finance guy wrote:
"If you only knew about the meetings in the Pastors' conference room, the phone calls to the seminary, the vicious attacks by David Perdue, the way his wife is being treated like a pariah at Bellevue, the conversations amongst deacons and others calling his character into question.
"For instance, someone related to a member of the Pastors search committee said to me 'I guess that he and the seminary have sucked all out of Bellevue they can huh? hahahah'. Another comment 'How is this any of his business? He's biting the hand that feds him.' Another person told me 'he's just mad because he wanted to be pastor of Belleuve.'"
It seems MABTS has a vacancy on its board now. David Perdue reportedly resigned from the board of trustees of MABTS this week.
Love Worth Finding is reported to have a couple of vacancies on their board of directors as well since Mark Dougharty and Charlie Brand resigned last week.
Is there something going around? Or is it coming around?
David Brown said...
David S.: Read one of the last paragraphs in Rachel's letter and you will have your answer.
David Brown,
RIGHT ON!!!!! I told him the exact same thing about an hour ago.
Sick,
"Here are the fruits of the spirit:"
It's fruit, not fruits.
"love, joy, peace, longsuffering, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, self-control."
Which one does the rape and sodomy of your son fall under?"
Rape and sodomy fall under the category of sin.
I assume that you are a spirit-filled Christian... do you ever sin? Do you ever struggle as Paul did in Romans 7 with a "body of death?" Ever wanted to do one thing and ended up doing the opposite?
Look, what PW did was wrong, evil, etc.; everyone knows that, and I'm not trying to debate that point...
but for you to question the entirety of his life/ministry and legitimacy of salvation is dead wrong. But I am wasting my breath, because you already know this.
david S said...
Charlie,
I appreciate your answer, my question was addressed to Mr. Brown who has experience beyond the story. I was simply asking for clarification... from Mr. Brown.
Reply:
And David Brown answered you exactly as I did.
Praise God for people like sickofthelies and esther...Again, I say Praise the Lord!!
Every day that the sun rises and sets I pray for someone/everyone that was/is being molested as a child.
Their pain does not go away as a child, as a teen nor as an adult...
The pain is not only from being molested physically but emotionally, and spiritually ...over and over by memories...by adults that do not protect them..by adults that praise the very ones who did it...by adults who protect the ones who did it...yes, brothers and sisters look around Sunday at the children in church...some of them are being abused...look around at the faces of our brothers and sisters who see hundreds of people standing and clapping for a man who hid a child molester and the admitted he felt compassion for the child molester...look into their eyes and see if you can ever again stand for someone who perpetuates this sin of secretcy...God have Mercy on us all....Then go home remember those eyes you looked into and write letters to everyone in charge of BBC,the decons, the Sunday School teachers, and the SBC...lets pull together...we need one another..we are one body...
We're not one body.
But we should be.
Racism is evil. God hates it.
Exodus 21:2-11 discusses a non-racist form of slavery of Israelites to other Israelites (servant for six years or for life).
Why did God allow slavery? As you ponder that, consider...
BBC is "seeker sensitive" because BBC plays music meant for "white people" and our sermons are written "for white people." Go visit a "non-white" church and see if the sermon, music is different.
Racism is evil and it is dividing the Body of Christ all around the world.
Yes, this is a problem at BBC.
Charlie: with all due respect I did understand where David S. is coming from. As I have said, we are being looked at today from all across America. We must act proper.
I have been asked that question many times today from quite a few pastors.
David S. I was not trying to be smart. I had not seen Charlie's ealier post. I am sorry that you are being hit on now. I will have a more formal answer as to your question in the next few days. I want to talk with some other people that have been doing this longer than me. But for the time being do not leave those people alone.
I have been asked if the membership should vote someone out if they are a pehophile. I have seen comments that have come from the gut and not the heart. On that issue to I will get back to some of you later also.
Both responses require wise counsel and pray. I am not prepare to give a proper answer just now.
To all those pastors and leaders that have contacted me, thank you so much. I appreciate your concern to protect our children and may God bless your ministry. You are truly Godly men that love the Lord and our children.
David Brown
SNAP coordinator for West Tennessee and Memphis
a side note...
The decision to fire Paul Williams was made before Sunday night services at BBC then...
Why did Gaines have Coombs give the news of this firing in interviews on the TV and newspaper before telling the BBC family?
Especially since Gaines has stated this is only a BBC concern>
We were kept in the dark once again...
SECRETCY...
PLEASE LOOK INTO THOSE LITTLE EYES AND WRITE THE LETTERS AND MAIL THEM !
...(maybe even have them sent certified mail)
Keynoteseker said
God have Mercy on us all....Then go home remember those eyes you looked into and write letters to everyone in charge of BBC,the decons, the Sunday School teachers, and the SBC...lets pull together...we need one another..we are one body...
4:03 PM, January 25, 2007
Not only are we one body, we are one family. Who among us would not stand for the defense of mother, fathe, brother or sister in our biological family? How much more should we stand for and with those of our family with whome we will be spending eternity?
Now is the time to stand and be counted for righteousness' sake. As Dr. Rogers used to say "If we stand for nothing , then we will fall for anything."
Lindon, the answer is unequivocally NO - the SBC does not cooperate. The SBC wrote me that it had no record my perp was still in ministry. Many months later, I found him at a very prominent megachurch in Florida. Eventually, I even obtained a recording of him standing in the pulpit of another megachurch talking about how he was there to work with them in their children's ministry. No one stopped him. I went to Baptist leader after Baptist leader after Baptist leader - in 4 different states and at national headquarters - nobody helped me - and some tried to bully, intimidate, and further shame me. You can see the names of all the Baptist leaders I went to on my website - www.stopbaptistpredators.org/blind_baptist_leaders. And bear in mind, my report of abuse was immediately and readily substantiated by another Southern Baptist minister who knew about it when I was a kid. Oh...he called it "consensual" (which it wasn't) and said I shouldn't talk about it, but in the very process of doing so, he substantiated my story. Ultimately, he swore an affidavit talking about how the perp himself had told him about it. The Baptist General Convention of Texas wrote me that it had the man's name in its secret file of ministers for whom there is either a confession or substantial evidence of abuse - and yet even after that, no one did anything and the man continued in ministry. The church finally made a written apology for the "very serious sexual abuse" inflicted on me as a kid and acknowledged that its music minister had knowledge of the other minister's sexual contact with me as a kid. My point in all this is that I don't think anyone ever even doubted my story. And yet no one was willing to step in and stop him from continuing as a minister. I think I might have actually felt better if someone had simply called me a liar. Their inaction would have then seemed more rational. Instead, it seemed apparent that they knew what I was saying was true, and yet no one thought it mattered enough to do anything about it. Incidentally, when the SBC gathered 50,000 messengers in Atlanta in 1986, my perp was the minister in charge of the child care arrangements for the children of all those delegates. I'm told that he also served on a committee at one of his Florida churches for adopting policies to protect kids, and that, like PW, he also used to counsel people who said they had been abused and wanted to work in the church's children's ministry.
Last September 26, I and other SNAP leaders hand-delivered to Nashville a letter requesting the creation of a centralized office to which clergy abuse victims could submit reports of abuse and which would provide an independent objective professional review board that could then consider the allegations, investigate, and inform congregations. (The letter is posted on my website.) That request has been completely ignored...not even the courtesy of a response. And my story is just one of dozens. I hear from Baptist abuse survivors all over the country. My heart breaks for every story I hear, not only because of the abuse and the impact on their lives but because of the complete betrayal by denominational leaders who do nothing or worse when people attempt to report abuse. I could go on and on....but you can look at my website - www.stopbaptistpredators.org.
keynote seeker
Bless you for saying this:
look around at the faces of our brothers and sisters who see hundreds of people standing and clapping for a man who hid a child molester and the admitted he felt compassion for the child molester...
Response:
You have hit the nail squarely on the head. The degration that these children feel when they hear the pastor feeling compassion for the one who raped and sodomized his son is overwhelming to me, as an adult. Can you imagine the confusion the child must be feeling? There are SECULAR people that can understand this.
The child must wonder to him/herself: " if i told, would they turn on ME, and praise and protect the pedophile?"
So the child keeps the secret, being confused about where adults stand on this issue. Confused about who is the real victim.
The child in the pew is screaming out to us:
WHAT ABOUT ME??????????
Our church pulpit should speak loud and clear: PEDOPHELIA IS WRONG AND SHOULD NOT BE PROTECTED AND NOT TOLERATED!!!
Is that what we are hearing from behind the pulpit at BBC? If your answer is NO, then join us in trying to change this.
Aslansown,
How do you know the facts about this situation?
How are you so sure we should stand when the facts are not even available?
Isn't that a little hasty?
Christa,
Bless you for your words today - I don't think a lot of people on this blog can see past the troubles at BBC. I didn't until I read your story (I read it with a "not in my backyard" sort of attitude - for which I apologize to you).
I cannot in good conscience be silent about this issue anymore.
People, we have had a pedophile among us for the past 17 years and our current pastor has known for the past six months - we cannot punish Dr. Rogers even if he did know (which I believe he did not) - but we can punish those who have known.
The report we are to hear this Sunday has better name names and offenses and who knew what and when. If these people are still on staff, they should be shown the door. Pedophiles are crafty and conniving - they will stop at nothing to get their "fix". So don't settle for any more "under the blood" explanations. Your children's safety is at the very core of this issue. If you don't fight for them, then God help you.
karen
I didn't realize I was logged in under my other account - but the Karen Marshall post is still me.
Karen
jcsuitt said...
Friendinjax,
Dr. Brunson is NOT going to reconsider having SG at FBCJax nor should he. I have emailed Dr. Brunson and offered my full support...one of many I can assure you. I will be there and will support MB as well as SG. It is ashame that you and others are dead set on doing all you can to bring SG in all he does.
***
Finally, JCSUITT is back. I am still waiting for you to tell us who you are. Since you have lended your reputation to SG. Tell us who you are so based on your reputation we can see the eror of our ways.
You can all be sure that it will be a wase of time to discuss SG appearance in FL since JCSUITT has called and given HIS FULL SUPPORT. It is now time for all of you to move on to another topic. This guy carries serious weight!
Since we are all to trust you, please, tell us who we are trusting...
Bible in a year....Hasty????? Where have you been???? We are late!!!
aslansown, David,.....HOW do we stand together against this???? I volunteer!!
sECRET said:
assume that you are a spirit-filled Christian... do you ever sin? Do you ever struggle as Paul did in Romans 7 with a "body of death?" Ever wanted to do one thing and ended up doing the opposite?
response:
Are we back to: ' if you have ever sinned, you shouldn't criticize pw for what he did?"
Just becuase I have sinned does not mean that we should not hold our leaders accountable.
Just becuase I have sinned does not mean that PW should continue to counsel women who have been sexually abused.
Just becuase I have sinned is no reason to justify SG's decision to protect PW's dirty little secret.
Just because I have sinned is no reason to give SG a standing ovation for exposing our children for 6 months to a confessed pedophile.
Please, Please, Please, think about what you are saying. My sin has NOTHING to do with what PW did to his son. It has nothing to do with what SG did to his flock.
Do not confuse the two.
Christa wrote: Incidentally, when the SBC gathered 50,000 messengers in Atlanta in 1986, my perp was the minister in charge of the child care arrangements for the children of all those delegates. I'm told that he also served on a committee at one of his Florida churches for adopting policies to protect kids, and that, like PW, he also used to counsel people who said they had been abused and wanted to work in the church's children's ministry."
Christa, this is unbelievable. I apologize for not reading your site and will this evening. I have many more questions about how this may play out legally, etc. You may already have the answers on your site.
May God Bless the work you are doing on the behalf of the 'least of these' who cannot defend themselves. And that is it, folks. Children only have adults to protect them.
secretmeeting: I would respectfully refer you to Hebrews 10: 26-31 for starters.
sickofthelies,
Don't let people pull you into the "well, you're a sinner, too, so we shouldn't judge" game. Let them expose their children to whomever they choose - pedophile or not. You are right in your beliefs and I am 100% totally behind you. Stand strong, sister/brother! There are many here who are like minded!
karen
secretmeeting wrote: Now wait a second... Judah slept with his prostitute daughter in law (by marriage to his dead son)... and Jesus reduces Himself to be called "Lion of the Tribe of Judah!"
Jacob was a polygamist, and yet we are all children of the "God of Jacob."
Shall we mention David, "The Man after God's Own Heart?" >>
I do not want to get into a exposition on each one of these and the consequences for each in scripture here. But I will say that Jesus told us in scripture that our righteousness was to be 'more' than that of the Scribes and Pharisees.
Jesus set a higher standard of what is in the heart. PW did not remove himself from ministry 17 years ago and acted as if nothing happened. For whatever reason it has surfaced.
I have no idea of his election in the end. As of now, I can safely say, there is rotting fruit on the tree. And, yes I am a sinner who is being sanctified. And it ain't easy.
Joseph,
If you are questioning whether the child molestation took place, I know for a certainty that it did. Should we stand up for integrity whether from the pulpit or in our personal lives, Yes!
The facts are available. You have to look for them. I am not merely jumping on the bandwagon.
The circumstantial evidence alone speaks to the veracity of the claim. For instance, this summer a "thorough revue" of child security procedures was instigated. Ask Mark McDaniel. Ask David Brown.
On general spirtual principles alone, we should stand for a pure corporate church body.
If all that PW did was to lie about something for 17 years, this alone was enough to disqualify him from service. This we know he did. We heard this from the pulpit.
Another piece of circumstantial evidence is that fact that we have not had a repudiation of the incest/ pedophilia story. You will not hear this from the pulpit Sunday because it is impossible to do. To do otherwise would be to lie.
We should talk privately. Ask NASS for my e-mail.
Thanks for your concerne for my integrity.
As
I agree that it's a waste of time to email Brunson in Jax.
I took a few minutes, wrote out an email, added some links to this blog, local tv stations articles and the CA articles. I then emailed it to the local jax tv stations. Don't know if anyone else had done it. Since Brunson ignores email, maybe he'll answer calls from the local jax tv stations.
jcsuitt said:
It is ashame that you and others are dead set on doing all you can to bring SG in all he does.
response:
Jc, my brother/sister in Christ, is there ANYTHING that SG could do that would persuade you differently?
Could you consider, just for a moment, that perhaps, we are not interested in making it personal against SG, but rather, we find child sexual abuse to be so reprensable that we find SG's response ( or non-response) to be equally reprehensable?
If you choose to support SG, that is your perogative. However, please do not minimize child sexual abuse by accusing us as just being out to get SG. NOthing could be further from the truth.
Child sexual abuse stands alone, all by itself, as being reason enough. period. WE are TRULY disgusted with what PW did. Can you understand that? WE are not just ' grasping at straws' to come up with ' any ol thing' to try and oust him.
What he did, by protecting PW was reprehensable, PERIOD.
How can we trust that SG won't do it again if he has people that continue to support him even after he put our children in harm's way?
My children are too precious to me to trust that SG can be trusted to make the right decisions the next time this happens. And if you have read Rachael's letter, you now know that churches are often safehavens for pedophiles. Why? because they don't take it seriously and they ignorantly think that 'it won't happen' to them.
It would be naive to think that it could not happen again. Especially if SG gets by with it this time.
He would have already written the rule book for pedophiles at BBC...
It will be in the chapter labeled:
" Don't ask, Don't tell"
Our church will be a magnet for pedophiles. They will know that the head pastor will keep their secret. He will consider it to be ' under the blood'and send them out to prey on our innocent children.
.
I cannot tell you how many unchristian like thoughts I have swirling through my mind after reading Rachel's letter. It litterally made me sick to my stomach. Especially since the basic actions paralell what is going on at Bellevue. You have pastors who turn a blind eye to pedophiles and using Clergy Priviledge as an excuse for failing to take action. I can't comment any further because if I do, NASS might remove the post for a rather poor choice of words.
Karen, you have mail :)
bible-in-a-year wrote:
"Isn't that a little hasty?"
I believe that's what is called, in the words of a recent poster, "lobbing a turnip." I'd duck if I were you.
NASS
This is quoted from a post on Mike Bratton's Blog. (Not from Mike Bratton,but a poster there.)
**********
I came across this dedication page in the book written by Dr. Adrian Rogers called "Standing For Light and Truth", published in 2003. It is as follows:
" This book is warmly and gratefully dedicated to the following men who have served as deacon chairman since I have been pastor of Bellevue Baptist Church. To be the Chairman of deacons at Bellevue Baptist Church is a great honor and a tremendous responsibility. The deacons at Bellevue Baptist Church have incredible fellowship. They do not see themselves as managers of the church, nor men appointed to oversee the pastor. They present themselves with a Christ like spirit to serve the churhc. Bellevue Baptist Church is operated under this philosophy: The church is pastor-led, deacon served, committee-operated and congregationally approved. That works wonderfully well for us.
The following men are some of my dearest friends, and I thank God for them. Some are already in heaven but are still held in my heart. Would to God every pastor could have deacons like these:
Jeff L Arnold, Bryan Miller, Chuck Taylor, Harry Smith, Steve Tucker, Gene Howard, Dr. Robert Vincent, David Perdue, Jim Glover, Charles Brand, Roland Maddox, Jim Angel, Bob Dawkins, Robert Fargarson, John Crockett, R. L. Sorrell, Paul Stovall, Dr. Dewey Burton-deceased, William B Mills-deaceased"
There you have it. Some of the men listed as Dr. Rogers's dearest friends are now being maligned in some form or fashion.
It also gives an insight as to how Dr. Rogers saw Church government. It seems like it was more a "philosophy" not a set of bylaws. It also helps us see the mindset of the deacons who served with Dr. Rogers over the past 32 years. "They do not see themselves as managers of the church, nor men appointed to oversee the pastor"
********
SSBG,
When I see that picture (which has also been displayed on the imag), it makes me sick to my stomach.
I can only picture those men with knoves in their hands ready to stab AR in the back.
Who would have ever thought the men whom Dr Rogers condifered his dearest friends could say the things they have against Dr Rogers since his death. Spoken against his legacy. Refered to him as a "spinmeister".
There you have it. Once again, I am not impressed.
sbg wrote:There you have it. Some of the men listed as Dr. Rogers's dearest friends are now being maligned in some form or fashion.>.
With all due respect to you, what does this have to do with men who have been siding with a pastor who protected a pedophile?
Is that still NOT a fact to you?
Sickofthelies worries that "our church will be a magnet for pedophiles." Sadly, I have now seen and heard so much from all across the country that I conclude Southern Baptist churches already ARE a magnet for pedophiles. The autonomous structure indirectly shields perpetrators and provides a near perfect paradise for predators. Predators have figured that out. And no one in Southern Baptist leadership is doing anything about it other than endlessly saying "we can't....congregational autonomy." Meanwhile, predators remain in pulpits and in positions of trust. Bellevue has the potential to be a powerful force on this issue. I hope that after you deal with this in your own church, you will stand up and make yourselves heard. Write to Morris Chapman. Write to Richard Land. Write to Frank Page. Write to the Executive Committee members. Let SBC leaders know that you are fed up with their can't do/won't do/won't even try style of leadership on this. If a church with the human and financial resources of Bellevue still has this much difficulty in dealing with this, can you imagine what it's like for smaller churches with less resources? How easy it is for clergy perpetrators to stay hidden...or to move on to another church? And no one in denominational leadership is stepping up to the plate and helping congregations when they are confronted with this....much less helping victims who attempt to make reports. Why not? The SBC maintains an archive of documents on Baptist history and has a budget for maintaining that archive. Why can't they also maintain an archive of ministers reported for child molestation? Why can't they provide congregations with an independent professional panel for reviewing and investigating clergy abuse reports - a panel that could then provide congregations with objective information? Why does SBC leadership not demonstrate leadership on this issue that is so critical to the safety and well-being of children? Why do they turn a blind eye?
secretmeeting
So you believe that a man who raped his son and no telling who else( I do not believe that these perverts do it only once)exhibits fruit of the spirit!!!!
Please tell and explain to me all the fruits of the spirit that Paul Williams has.
David B or Christa,
I don't know if either of you has any stats to answer this question. I read earlier an estimation that 1 in 5 children is a sexual abuse victim. Any idea how many ministers 1) may have been sexually abused themselves or 2) may be sexual abuse perps? The hard numbers on this may not exist at this point, as I am unaware of any studies that have been done within the SBC in this regard, but the thought ran through my mind while reading Christa's last post. There has to be some logical explanation, however shaky, behind the failure of the "good ol' boys' network" to deal effectively with this horrendous problem, and I wonder if having been victimized themselves or being themselves victimizers might be the key.
Your thoughts?
ssgb
yes but no...
Ecclesiastes 1:9 The thing that hath been, it is that which shall be;and that which is done is that which shall be done: and there is is Nothing NEW under the sun.Solomons heart also turned from God to acknowledge other Gods
and to appease his wives.Is it possible that some of this stalwart men you mentioned turned their heart from god and got on that Cabbage truck after Dr Rodgers died &when Steve Gaines started to reign?Do some of these men realize the damage they did to their selfsrving agenda at the ill fated Communcations meetings?We are not here to malign any one.By their own words they maligned them selves.....
secret,
but for you to question the entirety of his life/ministry and legitimacy of salvation is dead wrong. But I am wasting my breath, because you already know this.
3:28 PM, January 25, 2007
Go to the world and tell them that it is ok to have a child molester on the staff because we all sin,and after don't you speed sometimes.Try that for a few days and see how many "worldy people you can convince to agree with you.
"There has to be some logical explanation, however shaky, behind the failure of the "good ol' boys' network" to deal effectively with this horrendous problem, and I wonder if having been victimized themselves or being themselves victimizers might be the key."
Two thoughts come to mind: Lack of teaching on regeneration and sanctification.
You have proof of it at Bellevue. Your pastor said, "It is under the blood". That means PW asked for forgiveness and it is over. There was no accountability and no public repentance or removal from ministry. Cheap Grace.
These actions send a message to everyone that forgiveness is that easy. No consequences. No working out our salvation with fear and trembling as scripture tells us. Pauls tells us over and over to 'examine ourselves'.
But because SG does not really believe in or or teach sanctification or regeneration, he looked no further than PW telling him he asked for forgiveness.
Think of the past sermons you have heard on forgiveness from this man. Were there any on sanctification to go with it?
We have taken the work Christ did on the Cross so lightly. (I include myself in that statement)
"Cheap Grace" - Hallelujah! Thank you Lindon. That sums it up so well.
Way too many Baptist ministers have seen my website and responded by emailing me with a mini-sermon on forgiveness. As if any amount of forgiveness on my part would ever serve to make any other kid any safer. It's "cheap grace." It's self-serving grace. It's a completely faulty forgiveness theology.
I am saying this again because it is a BIG DEAL. I was not able to protect Paul Williams son from PW 17 years ago because I did not know him. But I can speak out about this, no more anyone putting Paul William's son name nor or G.W. (Guess What)? Do you get it. For the sake of Love please listen to me people. God is Love, the Bible says so. show your care for PW's son where ever I.T. (It)
is please delete. You people do what the news media will not because of the fear of the law, I am asking you please stop D.O.I.N.G. (Doing) it ok? I have been reading these posts since last year, and I know who you are talking about. Awhile back ago, there was a man who paid a woman so he could have sex with her child, they arrested him and the mother but did not give the name of the mother for keeping the name of the child private. Somebody else should hate people doing this to and should not typing another message saying they agree with me. I love PW's son with a Holy love. This is how I show my love.
Maybejustmaybe asked about numbers. My site reports on some studies at www.stopbaptistpredators.org/alarmingnumbers.html
The Jenkens study, which specifically addresses clergy pedophiles is a 1996 study. It showed 2 to 3 percent of Protestant ministers are pedophiles. I suspect that, a decade later, such a study might show higher numbers. The Journal of Pastoral Care survey was done in 1993 and did not focus on child predators but simply on inappropriate sexual conduct by clergy. That showed 14.1 percent. I think it's a multi-faceted problem, but I sometimes wonder whether one part of the explanation may be that, with such a high percentage of pastors having engaged in some sort of inappropriate sexual conduct, that means a lot of them may feel they have something to hide. And that fact may make them more inclined to stay quiet or look the other way when sexual misconduct allegations are raised against a colleague - even when those allegations involve a child - for fear that their own conduct might be exposed.
This post by Rachel is heart wrenching. I really am at a loss for words. Rachel, please know that you and your sweet son (and family) will be in my family's prayers. This is one area I have never had to deal with...and cannot even begin to understand the pain coming out of something of this magnitude.
I would just have to say that from all the atrocities Bellevue has undergone under such poor leadership of Steve Gaines, it would seem to me that for the best interest of the Body of Christ, he would have the decency to resign and let this church begin to heal. The lost sheep will not find their way back home otherwise.
I just read on savingbellevue.com that David Cox has just resigned from First Baptist Church of Daytona, another megachurch. He had caused great turmoil similar to that of Bellevue under Gaines leadership. He stated in his resignation to the congregation, "Given present dynamics and poised circumstances, I believe that any continued service and ministry here, on my part, would not be productive toward future growth and health." His resignation was effective at midnight after the speech was read.
Steve Gaines should do the same. His leadership at Bellevue has been a catastrophy.
Christa wrote: "Way too many Baptist ministers have seen my website and responded by emailing me with a mini-sermon on forgiveness."
This just stuns me. Wanting pedophiles, abusers and those who protect them removed from ministry is unforgiving?
Christa Brown
Said..."with such a high percentage of pastors having engaged in some sort of inappropriate sexual conduct, that means a lot of them may feel they have something to hide. And that fact may make them more inclined to stay quiet or look the other way when sexual misconduct allegations are raised against a colleague - even when those allegations involve a child - for fear that their own conduct might be exposed."
I think you are right. But if I told BBC people about PW being bad they would say no you are wrong. But I did not know he was a child molester.
I think a big issue is that people think that the bible says Forgiveness replaces consequences. While the bible says to forgive, it does not say forgiveness replaces consequences for our actions.
David Brown said...
Charlie: with all due respect I did understand where David S. is coming from. As I have said, we are being looked at today from all across America. We must act proper.
David S. I was not trying to be
smart. I had not seen Charlie's ealier post. I am sorry that you are being hit on now.
REPLY:
David Brown,
I did nothing more than attempt to answer the question from david s. Like you, I was NOT trying to be smart either, nor was I "hitting" on david s. but was simply providing an serious answer to a legitimate serious question.
david s,
There was NO MALICE in my answer. Whether or not you thought there was, I humbly and sincerely apologize.
Christa, I could not find the letter to the SBC on your blog.
In the cases you have seen, does the victim usually report the abuse first to the church before reporting it to the law? I noticed the use of confidentiality agreements and settlements. These could not be agreed upon if this is reported to the law, could they?
And what about those who knew about the abuse but did not report it. Aren't they subject to the law for not reporting it?
One thing I am noticing is that victims are expecting the church to support them and it is just the opposite! It is supporting the perp at all costs!
(Is anyone else thinking: "Millstones around the neck" as mentioned earlier?)
I got to thinking about this.... I took my daughter in for her yearly check up for Kindergarten.
The female doctor examined her but then started asking her very specific questions about who touches her and where...all in front of me. She did it in a very non threatening way that a kid would not even find strange.
Later, the doctor explained privately that they are now doing this with all children 5 and above because molestation has become so prevalent.
They can tell by a childs answers if they need to dig deeper. This fits with the information we got from the crisis centers. False reports from children on molestation are pretty rare.
I used to be offended that people were 'looking' for abuse. But not anymore. There are too many right under our noses. We need to be looking and praying.
Kind of shocking that secular doctors are more concerned about our kids than pastors who are soul doctors.
Folks, Rachel let her 5 year old go to the bathroom at church. We have all done that! That poor childs life has been altered forever.
memphismom02 said
"Just a "heads up" for those of you with youngsters, so you can plan ahead. I would like to be in the sanctuary, but I don't know what I can do with my pre-teens. I DARE NOT leave them alone anywhere in BBC -- you just never know who might be patrolling the halls....."
Give me a break!! All of you! Rachel's story, while very sad and horrible, has nothing to do with Bellevue. There has never been a claim of child molestation on the grounds of Bellevue. Our children are safe at Bellevue and always have been.
If you are so scared to leave your children in Bellevue's childcare program then you really should leave, because even if SG steps down the nursery workers will be the same.
I just spent some time reading many of the posts from today. Wow! Some of you guys have become sorta mean-spirited... I guess it is not new but it does seem to have reached a new level....
christa brown wrote:
but I sometimes wonder whether one part of the explanation may be that, with such a high percentage of pastors having engaged in some sort of inappropriate sexual conduct, that means a lot of them may feel they have something to hide. And that fact may make them more inclined to stay quiet or look the other way when sexual misconduct allegations are raised against a colleague - even when those allegations involve a child - for fear that their own conduct might be exposed.
Christa,
We've never exchanged posts. Me and my accountability partner and sister in Christ, Hope, have been following the blog since the beginning. Neither of us were abused as children, but we've both got our own unique testimonies of pain and suffering.
I am in no way diminishing anyone's hurt, but do you realize how your post reads? This is a thread about our pastor ignoring child abuse, and your statement suggests that many pastors ignore abuse because they are guilty of it themselves.
How am I supposed to interpret that? How should I apply your statement to the current situation? There's really only one way. You said that my pastor covered up PW's sin because he was guilty of it himself. I suppose I should be angry, but frankly I'm too exhausted to care.
Over and over again, I've seen my brothers and sisters insulted, attacked, and called every name imaginable. There's been the clear innuendo that anyone who supports SG is unsaved. Every time I read that, I get so incredibly angry I want to hit someone.
My church is incredibly important to me, but I'm starting to suspect that maybe I've made it into an idol. If so, I need to walk away. Bellevue isn't an end, it's a means to an end. Perhaps I should pursue that end elsewhere.
I really hate to leave, though. A lifetime ago, I was married and living in another state. Me and my 'wonderful' husband were expecting our first child, and we had just found out it was going to be twins. Unknown to me, my husband was a polygamist and an alcoholic. When I found out and confronted him, he went off the deep end. He tried to kill me. He shot me over and over. You'll have to get the police report to find out how many times. I lived, but my babies didn't. My husband disappeared, and I haven't seen him since. He's probably still out there somewhere.
The bullet wounds healed, but not the wounds to my soul. I spent several years in a mental hospital. I prayed every day for death, and I was angry at God that I still lived.
I eventually got moved back home to Memphis. It was here that I met Hope. She was so wonderful to me, even though I was consumed by hatred. I remember thinking how smart she was, and how kind. She was always sharing what the "Big A" had preached about Sunday.
Somehow, through her love and kindness, I did something incredible. I forgave. I released my husband from the debt he owed me. It was truly an act of God, because I never could have done it alone. I was instantly set free. I was finally well, and although I had no blood family left, the friends I met through Hope were more accepting and supportive than anyone I had known in my life. Bellevue was like heaven to me. God has used our church to touch so many lives, and I hope her days aren't over.
Brothers and sisters, can we start treating each other like brothers and sisters? I'm not a theologian like Hope, but the Bible does say to love and respect one another. It also says to forgive. I read a post that asked "if Jesus was here what would He think". Jesus IS here. I wonder what he's thinking?
Your sister,
Faith Jackson
Predictions for Sunday night:
1. No live radio broadcast (just a repeat of a prior service), no live streaming on the web, no news media allowed, no children allowed, no visitors allowed, no recording or videotaping allowed.
2. David Coombs will explain why they fired PW but will not attempt to explain why it took 7 months for this decision to be made.
3. Most of the congregation will clap like trained seals when Coombs says it's time to move on and support our pastor.
4. Harry Smith will once again tell the congregation that we need to ask SG for his forgiveness for the way we have treated him.
5. SG will instruct the congregation to join hands and sing "Sweet, Sweet Spirit" and most folks will go home happy as a clam.
The reasons Coombs will not attempt to explain why this decision was not made sooner are:
1. There's no reason he could state with a straight face.
2. For the vast majority of BBC members (who think SG can do no wrong), no explanation is necessary.
3. Jim Barnwell has already said something to the effect of, "the important thing is, SG now knows he should have acted sooner" (which makes it okay).
"Rachel", thank you for sharing your story, and David Brown, thank you for all you are doing.
outahere,
"trained seals"?
I thank God that you're out of here.
Faithnhope,
Amen!!!!!!
Somebody, anybody, please give me a plausible explanation for SG's failure to fire PW 7 months ago. I have yet to hear one from the pulpit, from SG's defenders, or anyone else.
I'm like Faith, Exhausted!!!
Whatnext,
Just Forgive....Forgive your pastor, and give it to God. He is big enough to handle it. Forgive him for everything...lets be a church again.
faithinhope: "I am in no way diminishing anyone's hurt, but do you realize how your post reads? This is a thread about our pastor ignoring child abuse, and your statement suggests that many pastors ignore abuse because they are guilty of it themselves"
Christa was answering a question someone put to her about why they hide this kind of sin in churches. If you looked at an earlier post, she gives some numbers on the incidence of 'sexual immorality' of pastors that ties in with this post.
I have been doing some checking and find that adultry, pedophilia, rape, etc are lumped into the 'sexual immorality' category by many churches or state conventions.
Knowing that may help understand why she answered her question like that.
Personally, I think sexual abuse of children needs its own category. They are totally defenseless. Adultry takes two in agreement.
Can someone please tell us why he protected a confessed pedophile for 6 mos?
Faithnhope, Overflowingwithgrace,
I have to ask, do you plan to stand and applaud SG for his handling of this situation? If so, why?
Overflowinggrace
There has been a confession of a child molester On THE GROUNDS of Bellevue...(PW)And the stats show they have a HIGH percentage of repeating their perverted fiendish crimes Again.I say never take yours of your kids and scan defencely.Steve Gaines should resign just for this one cover up that allowed 6 months for someone he knew was a confesed child molester and that he (PW)would still be under Steve Gaines secrect umbrella.From what I read on site called childsafe network you cannot trust what childmolesters say about repentance or reform.Childsafe Network has lists of address of convicted child molesters as they have to register their address.I checked the address zipcode of convicted molesters in my neighborhood and was shocked the close prox of these criminals is scary.If you go to their website its hard to get thru their advertisments to sign up as member but I think this website is worth the trouble.Please read Megans Story.Esther and overflowing we hear both of you, back off a little sisters.each of you is not the problem.Satan is the problem.Let"s all work together to keep our children safe.I am a father of 3 boys.check out childsafe network I thought iwould share this with you sisters.He Reigns!
Overflowinggrace,
I posted: Somebody, anybody, please give me a plausible explanation for SG's failure to fire PW 7 months ago. I have yet to hear one from the pulpit, from SG's defenders, or anyone else.
You replied: Just Forgive....Forgive your pastor, and give it to God. He is big enough to handle it. Forgive him for everything...lets be a church again.
I take this to mean that you do not have a plausible explanation for SG's 7 month delay. Is my interpretation correct?
Outahere so you mock your brothers and sisters in Christ who support our pastor calling them "trained seals?"
Shameful.
fallintheditch,
I have been to a similar website and was stunned to see 5 convicted child molesters within 3 miles of my home in my suburban area. I recongized one of them.
Here is the link:
http://www.familywatchdog.us/
But this site only lists the ones who were caught and reported.
Just a thought,
If Paul Williams were a CPA and fiancial officer at BBC and had confessed to SG in June that 17 years ago he stole 6 million dollars from the church but only did it one time and was now in therapy . Does anyone really believe that SG would have let him keep that position for an additional six months????
I doubt it, he would have been terminated that day.Sadly at BBC the safety of children is overlooked for six months, I'd love to know why.
outahere,
Why do you care what I do? Are you trying to please men, or God? I don't plan on standing. For your information, I can't.
You can also go to the TN Sex Offenders Registry.
I think you will find out a lot Sunday night. Will I stand? Who knows.
I'm really tired of this back and forth...it's the holier than thou attitude out here that turns people away from church and they never come back.
Dear Overflowing: Here is the subject line from my first email from Rachel: "Just another example how the Pastor's delay has hurt."
You say it has nothing to do with Bellevue? Rachel would respectfully disagree. She and her family has been hurt over this Bellevue situation. That was the purpose of her letter to let people know.
As for folks continually mentioning the minister and his son's name, I totally agree. It needs to stop, but I must point out that the first person to publically mention his name was Dr. Gaines on Sunday, Dec. 17th in front of the entire congregation. I was stunned when he did. It was not necessary.
David Brown
SNAP coordinator of West Tennessee and Memphis
Whatnext,
You don't have a clue what happened in June. Either way I'm going to Forgive.
David,
Did he mention the father's name or the son. I can't remember.
overflowinggrace said...
Whatnext,
You don't have a clue what happened in June. Either way I'm going to Forgive.
9:18 PM, January 25, 2007
Iwonder how forgiving you would be if your child was molested at the church
quitlyingsg,
We are faced with a lot of things where it is very hard to forgive. You make that claim as if someone was molested at Bellevue. There are no claims that anyone has been molested please don't insinuate that there have.
quitlyingsg said: I wonder how forgiving you would be if your child was molested at the church...
Why in God's name would you say something like that?!? Was your child molested at Bellevue?!? When? By whom? Have you contacted the authorities? Why not? Are you protecting someone?
Lord, forgive us!
Outahere,
1. No live radio broadcast (just a repeat of a prior service), no live streaming on the web, no news media allowed, no children allowed, no visitors allowed, no recording or videotaping allowed.
And why exactly would they broadcast their report via the radio or online? That would serve no purpose. Why would someone need to record that part of the service? Maybe to put it up on a website and hopefully get thousands of hits because of it?
2. David Coombs will explain why they fired PW but will not attempt to explain why it took 7 months for this decision to be made.
Gaines already admitted waiting 6 months was a mistake....what else do you want him to do than to resign? Why are people here concerned with "getting his head" (as one person said earlier)? You need to move on over the 6 months issue...are you going to be talking about this for the rest of your life?
3. Most of the congregation will clap like trained seals when Coombs says it's time to move on and support our pastor.
Nice attack. Comparing members of BBC to animals. That's sad.
4. Harry Smith will once again tell the congregation that we need to ask SG for his forgiveness for the way we have treated him.
Guess what? The majority of people here do need to apologize to Gaines and ask for his forgiveness. Why would you people be exempt from doing that? Does forgiveness apply to everyone except for the NBBCOF bloggers? I don't think so...
5. SG will instruct the congregation to join hands and sing "Sweet, Sweet Spirit" and most folks will go home happy as a clam.
If you don't like that song, then you don't have to sing it. Nobody is forces you. Remain seated. Or maybe you should just leave when the children are excused. You could protect them from the "bad guys in the hallway" waiting for them to be released from the service (another sad thing I read from this blog tonight).
Oh well...
QuitLying,
Iwonder how forgiving you would be if your child was molested at the church
Noone was molested at the church. This post was way out of line.
overflowinggrace said...
quitlyingsg,
We are faced with a lot of things where it is very hard to forgive. You make that claim as if someone was molested at Bellevue. There are no claims that anyone has been molested please don't insinuate that there have.
9:25 PM, January 25, 2007
You are avoiding the question. I asked . How forgiving would you be if your child had been molested at church , of for that matter anywhere?????
OverflowingGrace,
Did he mention the father's name or the son. I can't remember.
He announced that PW was on-leave for investigation related to a family member. No other names were given...he just told us to pray for P and his entire family.
lindon said:
Adultry takes two in agreement.
Well, it might take two, in my case it involved three, plus my children. I still forgave.
quitlying,
You should apologize for insinuating that children have been molested at BBC.
Moderator...please delete
I asked a hypothecial question you are trying to avoid answering it by changing the subject.A favorite tactic of the SG supporters when the don't to answer hard questions.
quitlying,
All can say is that I forgave the murderer of my children.
Any other hypothetical questions?
FJ
Dear Overflowing: He did mention the father's name. That was totally unnecessary. He did not mention the victim's name thankfully.
Let me make this clear, please it is not necessary to mention names. Please put yourself in this victim's shoes. He loves his father and some here are ready to nail his father to a cross. How do think that makes this dear son feel? Please, please think first.
I have said this many times and I will say it one more time: There are, nor, will there be any winners in this situation.
Please be passionate in defending our children but do not take it out on each other. As I said eariler today this blog is being watched nationwide. Let's act like the fellow brothers and sisters we are.
If someone says something you don't agree with, accept it as their opinion, aruge your side but doing it in a kind loving manner. It can be done. I have an email from a dear sister that proves it.
I love you all and please do not forget to be in prayer.
David Brown
SNAP coordinator of West Tennessee and Memphis
Dear Ace: Thank you brother, you must type must faster than me.
You are correct. But you knew that. ;)
Does that get me a cookie?
David Brown
Faith
Thank you for your answer, I have to admit that If my children were molested I would not rest until that person was arrested and spent the rest of his life in prison.
overflowinggrace , What about you????
quitlying,
If my husband were captured, I'd still demand that he be put to death for murdering our children. My forgiveness means that he doesn't owe anything to me. I released him from his debt.
He still owes society and God his life, though. If the time comes, I'll do EVERYTHING in my power to make it so. (forgive me, Hope)
"Well, it might take two, in my case it involved three, plus my children. I still forgave. "
Did you overlook it?
I think I just answered that.
Faith,
I believe SG needs to step down for allowing the molester to remain on staff.
fatithwrote: "I think I just answered that."
oops, sorry, our posts crossed in cyberspace. Forgiveness does not mean overlooking SG's very bad unscriptural decisions. His lack of care for his sheep. He still may have to answer to the legalities of this, too. They certainly do not overlook these things. Forgiveness is NOT always reconciliation nor is it always fellowship, as you well know.
I can understand why you argue this from emotion. You have been through a horrible horrible tragedy.
NBBCOF!!!!
Please read this note from me: 6:56 PM, January 25, 2007
This is serious, it is not my post but to let that person know not to do that and for that person to clean it up. Please do this A.S.A.P.
for the L-RD sake.
After reading Please Delete this:
10:48 AM, January 25, 2007
Delete this also please : 3:13 PM, January 25, 2007
Delete Please: 12:07 PM, January 25, 2007
David Brown said:
As for folks continually mentioning the minister and his son's name, I totally agree. It needs to stop, but I must point out that the first person to publically mention his name was Dr. Gaines on Sunday, Dec. 17th in front of the entire congregation. I was stunned when he did. It was not necessary.
David Brown
SNAP coordinator of West Tennessee and Memphis
Response: Was Paul's name not mentioned on this blog before that? I thought it was on here before the 17th. Maybe I'm wrong.
Going to bed. No more posting for me tonight. I'll check for the answer tomorrow.
Thanks.
quitlying,
Honestly, if he knew that PW was a child molester and let him have access to the children of BBC, then I agree with you. I'll tie the millstone around his neck myself, gladly.
We don't know that, though. We won't know it after Sunday. I don't really trust the DA, either.
David Brown has shown himself to be a Christlike man. I trust him, and I trust that he won't rest until the facts are exposed. I suggest we pray for him and his work. It was no accident that he got involved. God has provided for us, and we need to wait for Him.
Faith,
I agree with that,
good night
I became aware of the minister on Monday night the Dec. 11th. There was NO mention of his name on the blog at that time. I reported it to the DCS investigator on Tuesday 12th.
I urged NASS to guard this blog and not allow any reference or mention of his name. They attempted to do that. And for the record I got the name of the minister from 2 different sources and neither one was NASS.
It was not until it hit that Sunday that his name was all over the place. Several of the first media reports did not use his name.
I still say this, it was not necessary for Dr. Gaines to mention his name that Sunday.
David,
Does that get me a cookie?
Sure, if you want! I have a batch in the oven right now...it'll be done in about 10 minutes! :)
Dear Ace: I also know you must be much younger than me. I cannot hang with the big boys like some of them do here. I am headed to bed, do some Bible reading and hopefully get some beauty rest. Goodness knows I need it.
Love you and don't get beat on too much.
Amos 8:4 ¶ Hear this, O ye that swallow up the needy, even to make the poor of the land to fail,
5 Saying, When will the new moon be gone, that we may sell corn? and the sabbath, that we may set forth wheat, making the ephah small, and the shekel great, and falsifying the balances by deceit?
6 That we may buy the poor for silver, and the needy for a pair of shoes; yea, and sell the refuse of the wheat?
7 The LORD hath sworn by the excellency of Jacob, Surely I will never forget any of their works.
8 Shall not the land tremble for this, and every one mourn that dwelleth therein? and it shall rise up wholly as a flood; and it shall be cast out and drowned, as by the flood of Egypt.
9 And it shall come to pass in that day, saith the Lord GOD, that I will cause the sun to go down at noon, and I will darken the earth in the clear day:
10 And I will turn your feasts into mourning, and all your songs into lamentation; and I will bring up sackcloth upon all loins, and baldness upon every head; and I will make it as the mourning of an only son, and the end thereof as a bitter day.
11 ¶ Behold, the days come, saith the Lord GOD, that I will send a famine in the land, not a famine of bread, nor a thirst for water, but of hearing the words of the LORD:
12 And they shall wander from sea to sea, and from the north even to the east, they shall run to and fro to seek the word of the LORD, and shall not find it.
13 In that day shall the fair virgins and young men faint for thirst.
14 They that swear by the sin of Samaria, and say, Thy god, O Dan, liveth; and, The manner of Beersheba liveth; even they shall fall, and never rise up again.
1st Peter 5:1 ¶ The elders which are among you I exhort, who am also an elder, and a witness of the sufferings of Christ, and also a partaker of the glory that shall be revealed:
2 Feed the flock of God which is among you, taking the oversight thereof, not by constraint, but willingly; not for filthy lucre, but of a ready mind;
3 Neither as being lords over God’s heritage, but being ensamples to the flock.
James 3:13 ¶ Who is a wise man and endued with knowledge among you? let him shew out of a good conversation his works with meekness of wisdom.
14 But if ye have bitter envying and strife in your hearts, glory not, and lie not against the truth.
15 This wisdom descendeth not from above, but is earthly, sensual, devilish.
16 For where envying and strife is, there is confusion and every evil work.
17 But the wisdom that is from above is first pure, then peaceable, gentle, and easy to be intreated, full of mercy and good fruits, without partiality, and without hypocrisy.
18 And the fruit of righteousness is sown in peace of them that make peace.
Ephesians 5:1 ¶ Be ye therefore followers of God, as dear children;
2 And walk in love, as Christ also hath loved us, and hath given himself for us an offering and a sacrifice to God for a sweetsmelling savour.
3 ¶ But fornication, and all uncleanness, or covetousness, let it not be once named among you, as becometh saints;
4 Neither filthiness, nor foolish talking, nor jesting, which are not convenient: but rather giving of thanks.
5 For this ye know, that no whoremonger, nor unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, hath any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God.
6 Let no man deceive you with vain words: for because of these things cometh the wrath of God upon the children of disobedience.
7 Be not ye therefore partakers with them.
8 For ye were sometimes darkness, but now are ye light in the Lord: walk as children of light:
9 (For the fruit of the Spirit is in all goodness and righteousness and truth;)
10 Proving what is acceptable unto the Lord.
11 And have no fellowship with the unfruitful works of darkness, but rather reprove them.
12 For it is a shame even to speak of those things which are done of them in secret.
13 But all things that are reproved are made manifest by the light: for whatsoever doth make manifest is light.
14 Wherefore he saith, Awake thou that sleepest, and arise from the dead, and Christ shall give thee light.
15 See then that ye walk circumspectly, not as fools, but as wise,
16 Redeeming the time, because the days are evil.
jcsuitt,
Hello Larry Ray.
NBBCOF,
10:52 PM, January 25, 2007 isn't me. Please delete.
Gaines already admitted waiting 6 months was a mistake....
When did Gaines admit this? To whom?
Rachel's story, while very sad and horrible, has nothing to do with Bellevue. There has never been a claim of child molestation on the grounds of Bellevue. Our children are safe at Bellevue and always have been.
How can you be so sure?
Other Ace - Please change your name. You are breaking the forum rules here and it is VERY low on your part to do such a thing.
1st Thessalonians 4:1 ¶ Furthermore then we beseech you, brethren, and exhort you by the Lord Jesus, that as ye have received of us how ye ought to walk and to please God, so ye would abound more and more.
2 For ye know what commandments we gave you by the Lord Jesus.
3 For this is the will of God, even your sanctification, that ye should abstain from fornication:
4 That every one of you should know how to possess his vessel in sanctification and honour;
5 Not in the lust of concupiscence, even as the Gentiles which know not God:
6 That no man go beyond and defraud his brother in any matter: because that the Lord is the avenger of all such, as we also have forewarned you and testified.
7 For God hath not called us unto uncleanness, but unto holiness.
8 He therefore that despiseth, despiseth not man, but God, who hath also given unto us his holy Spirit.
SadTroll said...
I just spent some time reading many of the posts from today. Wow! Some of you guys have become sorta mean-spirited... I guess it is not new but it does seem to have reached a new level....
7:57 PM, January 25, 2007
I agree. The church has been torn asunder. We tried to sweep the problems under the rug last summer when they surfaced. They've been simmering since. Now people on all sides have had it. The leadership blew it by their lack of openness and honesty. Steve would not be hammered nearly so hard on the PW matter if he had been more open and responsive on others matters. I do not believe his Bellevue ministry would be in jeopardy over the Paul Williams matter if he had handled the other matters properly. He believes he isn't accountable to anyone. Sadly, he is finding out the hard way that he is. We all are.
Rev. 21:8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.
ATTENTION EVERYONE - to know if a post is from the real 'Ace' or not, click on the userprofile (click on their name). - If the view counter has more than 1,000 views, that is me...the real Ace.... if it's a really low number, please know that it is the fake imposter. It's sad that the other side is willing to resort to such low tactics.
NBBCOF, an updated list of posts that aren't mine:
10:52 PM, January 25, 2007
10:55 PM, January 25, 2007
10:57 PM, January 25, 2007
11:02 PM, January 25, 2007
ace said...
Other Ace - Please change your name. You are breaking the forum rules here and it is VERY low on your part to do such a thing.
10:57 PM, January 25, 2007
You've shown so much respect for this forum...NOT! It's laughable for you to mention forum rules.
Ace, you are not a bad guy (or gal). You are, however, not here to add to the discussion. You are here to disrupt and keep and eye on the blog. Are you Mark Dougharty's secretary? Are you Mark D. himself? How about David Coombs? I don't know who you are and it does not really matter. What matters to you is winning.
1st Peter 4:12 ¶ Beloved, think it not strange concerning the fiery trial which is to try you, as though some strange thing happened unto you:
13 But rejoice, inasmuch as ye are partakers of Christ’s sufferings; that, when his glory shall be revealed, ye may be glad also with exceeding joy.
14 If ye be reproached for the name of Christ, happy are ye; for the spirit of glory and of God resteth upon you: on their part he is evil spoken of, but on your part he is glorified.
15 But let none of you suffer as a murderer, or as a thief, or as an evildoer, or as a busybody in other men’s matters.
16 Yet if any man suffer as a Christian, let him not be ashamed; but let him glorify God on this behalf.
17 For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if it first begin at us, what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of God?
18 And if the righteous scarcely be saved, where shall the ungodly and the sinner appear?
19 Wherefore let them that suffer according to the will of God commit the keeping of their souls to him in well doing, as unto a faithful Creator.
FakeAce said:
You are here to disrupt.
And exactly what are you trying to do???
With that being said becuase one defends SG against the attacks of people who want nothing more than him out does not equate to one who is a promoter and accepter of child rape or sexual misconduct. That is a line of reasoning that amazes me about this forum.
Jcsuitt,
I agree with you on that one. That is faulty logic and ridiculous. I don't believe Steve Gaines or any of our leadership or their defenders accepts child rape. Their response may have been inadequate. They are not the first ones to give a half-hearted response to sexual predators. That does not mean they condune the behavior. Please drop those statements.
The Fake Ace
jcsuitt - I agree with you that "SG will preach at FBC Jax" since these mega-church pastors cover for each other to protect each others speaking tours, Holy Land trips and quid pro quo conferences. Gaines and his $30 million dollar budget are at the top of the financial pyramid so they would invite the pastor of BBC no matter who it was. I hope you can make it down so that SG gets that standing ovation he deserves. I saw the same type of hoopin and hollerin two other times, when O.J. Simpson was freed, and when Michael Jackson was being tried for child molestation. Criminal acts always seem to bring out the emotional supporters of the accused. I hope the pastors attending the conference don't "drink the cool aid" SG's followers have and won't be giving him the standing ovation his fleeced sheep at BBC keep giving him. SG is reaping what he sowed, no matter what his supporters are so gullible to believe. God is not mocked by SG or any of us. Sooner or later, SG will reap the whirlwind and hopefully take those who chose to blindly look the other way, down with him.
Change your name to 'The Fake Ace' for all I care, just stopping deceiving other people that you are me...because in the end, all your posts are just going to get deleted and it makes you look foolish.
Memphis,
It's real simple. I am here to get under the skin of Ace. No other reason. I read this blog for months and he got under my skin every time I read it. Until the Paul Williams thing I wasn't on a side. I read the blog because I was trying to find out what was going on. Ace bugged me so much I finally decided I would begin to post and get under his skin a little.
Ace,
You have the nerve to think someone else will look foolish. That's rich!!!!
Looking foolish never stopped you. Thank you for your advice.
Fake Ace,
It's real simple. I am here to get under the skin of Ace. No other reason.
Well, isn't that wonderful?
Ace,
It's obvious my plan is working. You're a hyper fella (or gal) aren't you.
Lindon, Letter to SBC leaders is in lower part of right column. Yes, in most cases I've seen, the victim tries first to report to the church. That's really the saddest part for most. It's the complete betrayal by other church leaders that remains so incomprehensible to many victims. It is not far less difficult to come to terms with the reality that some individuals wear masks and do evil behind those masks. But the silence of the many - that's the part that remains incomprehensible.
In many, many cases, it is difficult to prosecute criminally because of limitations issues. So civil suits wind up being the only way to expose it (since churches so often keep it under wraps). And then church lawyers often press for confidentiality agreements. Most victims I've encountered would do almost anything to avoid filing a lawsuit - but without any process through the denomination - and backed into a corner by church and denominational recalcitrance - and seeing the perpetrator still in the pulpit - people file lawsuits because it seems the only way to try to protect others. Yes, there are reporting statutes in most states, but non-reporting is very seldom prosecuted.
To faithinhope: I was not making any sort of specific statement at all about Gaines. To the contrary, I was trying to put what's happening at Bellevue in context a bit, because it's happening all over, and to answer some very specific questions raised earlier.
I agree, Lindon, that sexual abuse of children shouldn't be lumped in with all the other sorts of sexual "misconduct" - and yet that seems to be how Baptist leaders handle it. In Texas, there is even a confidential file kept at the state convention with the names of ministers for whom there is either a confession or substantial evidence of "sexual misconduct." But the contents of that file are kept secret, and people in the pews aren't told, and child molestation is among the "misconduct" that's included in that file. That makes no sense to me and I can't imagine any way under heaven that it can be morally or ethically the right thing. My own perp was in that file at the Baptist General Convention of Texas, and he was still standing in a pulpit in Florida. Why could I not find a single church or denominational leader who cared about those kids in Florida enough to warn people in the pews??? I realize that the Texas convention isn't your problem there in Tennessee. But realize this: the Baptist General Convention of Texas brags that it does more than any other statewide Baptist organization in the country to prevent clergy sex abuse. I believe that's probably a true statement. They're proud of it. But I think it's a terribly frightening statement precisely because it is true, and it shows just how little of nothing is being done in this denomination.
Fake Ace, maybe ACE is nit the problem. Maybe you should email him and work it out.
I know I have emailed several people that I have had disagreements with and it has worked out for the both us (at least form e it has, can't speak for them)
Ephesians 4:23 And be renewed in the spirit of your mind;
24 And that ye put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness.
25 Wherefore putting away lying, speak every man truth with his neighbour: for we are members one of another.
26 Be ye angry, and sin not: let not the sun go down upon your wrath:
27 Neither give place to the devil.
28 Let him that stole steal no more: but rather let him labour, working with his hands the thing which is good, that he may have to give to him that needeth.
29 Let no corrupt communication proceed out of your mouth, but that which is good to the use of edifying, that it may minister grace unto the hearers.
30 And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.
31 Let all bitterness, and wrath, and anger, and clamour, and evil speaking, be put away from you, with all malice:
32 And be ye kind one to another, tenderhearted, forgiving one another, even as God for Christ’s sake hath forgiven you.
Lindon, To clarify, the letter to the SBC leaders with specific requests for action is on my website, NOT my blogsite. It's at www.stopbaptistpredators.org.
Memphis,
Since I don't know who Ace is I don't know if he is the probem. We know he defends men who are the problem. I could assume he does not realize what he is really defending. I like to believe he doesn't. I sense a kind and caring person who is deceived. Same goes for you. Ace bugs me, yes. However, he isn't mean-spirited like 4545 and a few others. He bugs me because I believe he has decency. I believe he knows better than to defend some of the actions he has been forced to defend.
Matthew 15:18 But those things which proceed out of the mouth come forth from the heart; and they defile the man.
19 For out of the heart proceed evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts, false witness, blasphemies:
20 These are the things which defile a man: but to eat with unwashen hands defileth not a man.
well Fake Ace if you would like to know anything from me, please feel free to email me and I would be happy to speak with you and answer any questions. I would prefer that before you blast me on the blog actually! :)
Luke 18:9 ¶ And he spake this parable unto certain which trusted in themselves that they were righteous, and despised others:
10 Two men went up into the temple to pray; the one a Pharisee, and the other a publican.
11 The Pharisee stood and prayed thus with himself, God, I thank thee, that I am not as other men are, extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even as this publican.
12 I fast twice in the week, I give tithes of all that I possess.
13 And the publican, standing afar off, would not lift up so much as his eyes unto heaven, but smote upon his breast, saying, God be merciful to me a sinner.
14 I tell you, this man went down to his house justified rather than the other: for every one that exalteth himself shall be abased; and he that humbleth himself shall be exalted.
Memphis,
Are you a Bellevue insider? Do you work for the church? Are you a deacon officer? Are you married to any of the above?
Are you a Bellevue insider?
Nope
Do you work for the church?
Nope
Are you a deacon officer?
Nope
Are you married to any of the above?
Nope
Matthew 13:10 And the disciples came, and said unto him, Why speakest thou unto them in parables?
11 He answered and said unto them, Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given.
12 For whosoever hath, to him shall be given, and he shall have more abundance: but whosoever hath not, from him shall be taken away even that he hath.
13 Therefore speak I to them in parables: because they seeing see not; and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand.
14 And in them is fulfilled the prophecy of Esaias, which saith, By hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see, and shall not perceive:
15 For this people’s heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.
16 But blessed are your eyes, for they see: and your ears, for they hear.
17 For verily I say unto you, That many prophets and righteous men have desired to see those things which ye see, and have not seen them; and to hear those things which ye hear, and have not heard them.
Hey Memphis and MJM
I was wondering if you read Rachael's story, and if so, if you have taken a different position.
Has it changed your opinion as to the way that SG handled the PW thing at our church?
I'm just a nobody in the pew trying to figure out what has been happening in my church. I'm not buying the political spin I hear from men I've loved and respected. It doesn't sit well with me. Anyone who can add two plus two knows something is wrong at Bellevue. It isn't all Jim Haywood's fault either. He just brought it to everybody's attention.
I was born at night, just not last night.
An Updated List for our lovely moderator:
10:52 PM, January 25, 2007
10:55 PM, January 25, 2007
10:57 PM, January 25, 2007
11:02 PM, January 25, 2007
11:06 PM, January 25, 2007
11:10 PM, January 25, 2007
11:13 PM, January 25, 2007
11:14 PM, January 25, 2007
11:16 PM, January 25, 2007
11:23 PM, January 25, 2007
11:31 PM, January 25, 2007
amos,
I do appreciate the bible verses that you post, but really, I have no idea how they are relevant to the discussion.
Please spell it out for me and others like me, or dont' post them.
I dont mean for that to be harsh, but I just don't get what you are trying to say by posting those verses.
sickofthelies,
Do you remember a time when Steve Gaines admitted waiting 6 months was a mistake? That's what the real ace said. I don't remember that. I don't think it has been said to the church.
SickOfTheLies,
I have to agree with you about Amos...the verses haven't been making much sense to me either.
-real ACE
Amos,
One other thing :)
My cat is named Amos. :)
sickofthelies, I am not sure what position you are thinking I have.
I have said several times that I thought it should have ben handled differently, and that (the minister, yes leaving out his name like was requested here) should have been fired when this cam up 17 years agao. I have also stated that I think he should face legal action if found guilty. I have also said that we should wait for the reports to come out and find out exactly what hey say before we make any decisions.
Why Ace I do believe you see what it is like to have someone come along and disrupt the blog. Not much fun is it/
Fake Ace,
I don't remember him saying it, but that doesn't mean that he didn't say it.
My memory is pretty bad. I'm sure that somewhere between this blog and the savingbellevue website is a log of what he said.
Fake Ace,
Why Ace I do believe you see what it is like to have someone come along and disrupt the blog. Not much fun is it/
I don't disrupt this blog. You on the other hand, are. Why don't you email me and we can talk? You seem to have very bitter feelings towards me. We can talk, I respond to ALL emails sent to me. acefrombbc@gmail.com
Memphis,
He would have been fired 17 years ago. No questions asked. The reason I know no one knew is his continued employment. I was around then. I know what the church was like. There is no way anyone knew, especially Dr. Rogers.
Fake Ace, it has been said on here that he confessed 17 years ago to someone, that is what I based my opinion on him being fired then on.
I do not know who knew what when during that time.
Memphis,
I can appreciate your position.
However, based on all that has happened, do you have confidence that the report that will be given on sunday night will not be 'whitewashed'?
The leaders have shown themselves to not be trustworthy, as evidenced by the communications committee meetings. They were sickening.
If the report is going to be anything like that, we might as well all stay home.
Ace,
I'm not bitter towards you. I consider you something like a pesky little point guard who is quick and worrisome to play against. You know they are good players and you don't hate them. Brother, you sure hate playing against them.
I don't hate you. I think you know a lot more than you ever say here. I think you know of lies that have been told. If you leveled with us about some of those things we might listen about others things.
Fake Ace,
Why don't you just be "fake Ace"- it is easy enough to tell you apart even without checking the profile views. There is no point that I can see to continuing to post under someone else's name. For all you know, people will be so confused they will think Ace's views are yours! Do you really want people thinking you are a SG supporter?
OKAY, ENOUGH! ATTENTION ALL ACES... REAL, FAKE, OR OTHERWISE, PLEASE JUST CUT IT OUT! YOU'RE ALL ACTING LIKE CHILDREN. I'M TIRED, AND I DON'T HAVE TIME FOR THIS GARBAGE!
FAKE ACE: IT'S NOT FUNNY, AND I DON'T APPRECIATE IT. CHANGE YOUR SCREEN NAME OR DON'T POST, BUT STOP PESTERING THE REAL ACE.
REAL ACE: CHANGE YOUR SCREEN NAME, JUST DON'T POST, OR IGNORE IT, BUT STOP WHINING.
Everyone else: My apologies for the meltdown. Please carry on.
And this day was going so well... why me, Lord?
GOOD NIGHT!
NBBCOF
Mrs. NASS,
I am sorry to disrupt your website.
sickofthelies, I am going to listen to what they say and then decide if it is "whitewashed" not before.
I am afraid that if people go in there with an attitude that they are being lied to, then no matter how truthful the report is, it will be perceived as lies.
JMHO
Fake Ace,
I have to agree wtih bepatient. It is confusing for those of us that agree with you. It makes us have to think harder than we need to.
You've made your point..Cuddit out, ok?
Post a Comment