In this thread, rather than discussing PW or his family or what he might or might not have done, please concentrate on what the administration at Bellevue now seems to be doing (or not doing) about the situation.
Kevin Rardin, Assistant Shelby County D.A., is a regular reader of this forum and saw this post by "informedatbbc" last night, prompting him to call David Brown to dispute the assertion by two BBC staff members that there was no external investigation under way. Mr. Rardin confirmed that there is definitely an ongoing investigation being conducted by the Shelby County D.A.'s office, and Mr. Brown received this letter from the Tennessee Department of Children's Services dated December 24th stating that agency is also conducting an investigation. This is the postmarked envelope (personal information omitted) it came in.
I have reposted David Brown's comments from last night here, along with some from other posters in the first comment in this thread. Mr. Rardin informed David Brown that the administration at Bellevue is refusing to cooperate with his office or the Tennessee DCS in their investigation.
Everyone needs to call the church office at 901-347-2000 and politely ask these questions:
1. Why did Mark Dougharty and Jamie Fish state that there is no external investigation taking place?
2. Why did Mark Dougharty state to someone back in December that he'd been "interrogated" about the PW situation for two hours the previous day? (He didn't specify by whom.)
3. Why aren't all members of the church administration fully cooperating with the agencies which we know for a fact are conducting these investigations?
Finally, please call the D.A.'s office and DCS if you have any information relating to this case. If you have ever been counseled by Paul Williams and have any concerns whatsoever about the nature of the questions you were asked or anything else about your encounters with him, please do the following:
1. Call the church office and politely but firmly demand they release the file from your counseling session(s) to you or your designated representative.
2. Call the officials listed below, regardless of how minor or inconsequential your concerns may seem to the case at hand. They need to hear whatever information you can give them and will decide for themselves if it's relevant or not. Please do not call their offices simply to complain about Bellevue administrators not cooperating. That's not news to them!
Kevin Rardin is the Shelby County Assistant District Attorney and can be reached at 901-888-4300 or 901-545-5935.
Larry Griffin is with the regional office of the State of Tennessee Department of Child Protective Services (DCS) and can be reached at 901-258-0268.
Subscribe to:
Post Comments (Atom)
637 comments:
«Oldest ‹Older 601 – 637 of 637I think the "birthright" was a larger portion of the inheritance for the elder son.
Bible, EZ, AOG , David, David S Andrew,
Interesting devotional this morning:
Wrestling With God
TGIF Today God Is First, by Os Hillman
The sun rose above him as he passed Peniel, and he was limping because of his hip. - Genesis 32:31
Jacob was a man who was a controller. He connived and manipulated his way to get what he wanted. It was a generational stronghold passed down through his mother, who encouraged her son to play a trick on his father, Isaac, by pretending to be Esau. This trick led Isaac to give the family blessing to Jacob, which meant Jacob would eventually inherit the land God had promised to Abraham's seed. Jacob also learned control from his uncle Laban who caused Jacob to work for 14 years to take Rachel as his lifelong mate. One must ask which was more ugly in God's sight, the self-centered nature and worldliness of Esau, or the control and manipulation of Jacob?
Control is a problem for men and women. Many women use sex to control their husbands. Many men use power and force to control their wives. Control is at the core of that which is opposite the cross-self-rule. What delivers us from this fleshly nature of control? A crisis. Jacob's crisis came when he was faced with the prospect of meeting a brother who said he would kill him the next time he saw him. Esau had built his own clan and was about to meet Jacob and his clan in the middle of the desert. Jacob was fearful, so he retreated. There he met a messenger from God who wrestled with him. Jacob clung to God and refused to let go of this angel. It is the place where Jacob was given a painful but necessary spiritual heart transplant. From that point on, Jacob would walk with a limp, because God had to dislocate his hip in order to overcome Jacob's strong will.
For workplace believers, God often has to "dislocate our hip" through failure and disappointment. Sometimes it is the only way He can get our attention. Our nature to control and manipulate is so strong that it takes a catastrophic event to wake us up. Yet God did not reject Jacob for these character traits. In fact, God blessed him greatly because He saw something in Jacob that pleased Him. He saw a humble and contrite heart beneath the cold and manipulative exterior of Jacob's life, and it was that trait that God needed to develop. He did this by bringing about the crisis in Jacob's life that led to total consecration. This event was marked by Jacob getting a new name, Israel. For the first time, Jacob had a nature change, not just a habit change. What will God have to do in our lives to gain our complete consecration to His will and purposes?
"Beware of the Christian leader who does not walk with a limp."
ace said...
Who cares about the shoes? Do people examine every portion of your life and every purchase that you make? No...so why are you doing that to Gaines?
It's his money, if he wants to buy shoes for himself or someone else, then so be it.
then ACE said this;
ace said...
Swtt,
I think J's as in J Alexander is Steve's favorite lunch place. At least he is well known there.
Everyone should boycott J Alexander's since they serve a pastor that harbored a known pedophile and wears $300 shoes!
11:57 PM, January 11, 2007
response;
I have no problem with anyone eating at J Alexanders every day if they want to. I've dined there myself and it's a very nice place to eat.
I know a lot of members of Bellevue who would love to take their family there to eat but the expense is more than they want to pay.
I don't think everyone should boycott J Alexanders (neither do you in your sarcastic answer) but I do agree with you shoe comment as applied to J Alexanders.
Steve Gaines can eat anywhere he wants to on his own money. It's wrong for him to spend tithing money to eat at such expensive restaurants all the time. If he wants to take these people out on hs own money, he can eat anywhere he wants to. I believe we are called to be good stewards of God's money whether we're the pastor or buying paperclips for vacations bible school.
The amount of money Bellevue spent on restaurants last year is incredible and abusive.
padroc said...
Mike Bratton,
Your beginning to "sound" like what I would like to "sound" like if I blogged. I cannot type. Typing and keeping a train of thought is more than challenging for me so if you will continue to help and administer CPR to some of the tortured "dialog" on this blog I for one will cheer you on.
When you lead by example as you agree to differ in an agreeable manner, which you seem able to turn on and off, we all benefit.
Thanks
And thank you.
However, I don't turn anything "on and off" in the way you mentioned. It's been my observation over the years that the vast majority of people who engage in discourse over the Internet confer the label of "agreeable manner" upon those with whom they agree; the more they agree with a writer, the more agreeable that writer's manner is perceived to be.
The only exceptions to that observation are when writers veer from addressing issues and begin disparaging individuals with whom they disagree.
Want to question someone else's behavior? Go for it.
Want to question the salvation of someone who professes to be a Christian, but has the temerity to disagree with you? Take care.
All the problems at Bellevue are going to be properly dealt with when there is an overwhelming attitude of cooperation, not confrontation.
And before anyone starts finger-pointing, that means everybody.
--Mike
ezekiel said...
Telos,
Great post! Nothing like confirmation through His Word to keep one humble.
EZ,
I agree - All praise to God!
Oh, and before I forget, this morning I found an article about two Baptists who want to "deny, deny, deny" what being a Christian of the Baptist stripe is all about.
It's up at my joint for your perusal--and when you think about it after you've read it, you'll laugh all day long.
When you're not praying for the two men in question, that is...
--Mike
swtt said:
"The annual cost of restaurant charges at Bellevue is incredible."
Would you mind sharing how much it is? I'm sure many would like to know the "incredible" $ amount you suggest.
This is a general suggestion to everyone:
Even though everyone here will readily claim they're not being hateful and just defending what's right, just about no one is (just about - there are a few people here who know better).
Why are you all attacking each other with accusations and anger? Don't you know that you're making fools out of yourselves? That's not good at all!
What we really need here at the NBBCOF is love - love for fellow children of God, and love for God Himself. All I read here are hateful accusations, especially from the
"anti-Gaines" side.
Proverbs 10:12 says:
Hatred stirs up dissension, but love covers over all wrongs.
If this really were a Christ-centered forum, then maybe there would be a little less accusations and a little more verses. All I read now are man's opinion, but to be honest, I don't care about what man has to say about all the events at BBC; I care what God has to say - and I'm perfectly willing to listen and accept the truth.
I'm not perfectly settled on the issues of BBC, but I'm not going to "take sides". It seems that people here are black or white. Anyone that is against Dr. Gaines seems not to want to look further and see if they're wrong; they don't want to be wrong.
I just encourage everyone to pray about this more than argue about it. Talking to God will get a lot more done than talking to man.
Here are a few verses on prayer we should all (including me) follow:
If any of you lacks wisdom, let him ask of God, who gives to all liberally and without reproach, and it will be given to him. Jam 1.5
(Jesus said...) I say to you, love your enemies, bless those who curse you, do good to those who hate you, and pray for those who spitefully use you and persecute you Mt 5.44
Pray for one another, that you may be healed. Jam 5.16b
If this were a time to pray for BBC, this is it!
Father in Heaven,
Thank you for another week as a member of the Body of Christ. Please help me to begin to prepare myself to approach you for worship this weekend. Help me to trust you enough to take a 24-hour rest from all things between now and Monday. Thank you for giving me the Bible and your Holy Spirit. With these two I have reference to all the information that you want me to have as I (one that you have created) try to live in this world that you created.
In Jesus's name,
AMEN.
Day 12: Genesis 34-36
American English translation ("NIV")
King James
Please pray a Great Commission prayer for today's nation of the day: Austria
ezekiel said:
"I don't care if he wears $800 gator boots. As long as I don't hear him tell us from the pulpit that our money is better off in the plate than on my own $800 gator boots....
Walk the talk....."
I understand your principle but it loses credibility when you exagerate. Before you say "walk the talk" do you know that Steve doesn't? Do you know how much he gives?
heardnuf,
Go look at the annual finance report.
tennesseebaptist,
Thanks for sharing your thoughts. It seems like you really thought about what you wanted to say in a reasoned manner.
One observation: you mentioned you are not taking sides, but it *does* seem like you are taking sides. Not that it matters, but if you have a "side," it's ok. It is hard to sit on the fence in this situation.
Also, be careful about blanket statements and generalizations on this blog. It is very difficult to communicate tone on a blog (or at least communicate tone effectively), and not everyone here has "hate" issues.
Just my .02
tennesseebaptist,
your comment, "All I read here are hateful accusations, especially from the
"anti-Gaines" side." explains a lot.
Most hateful comments come from the folks who are defending all wrong doing by the church leadership. For all we know, you may be one of them.
I agree with you that everything needs to be said in love. Facts may hurt but they are not hateful.
Everybody I know that is standing for truth are doing so out of love and they do not hate Steve Gaines. They love Steve Gaines but they want truth and righteousness to prevail.
I hope you understand.
God Bless you today.
"The annual cost of restaurant charges at Bellevue is incredible."
Would you mind sharing how much it is? I'm sure many would like to know the "incredible" $ amount you suggest.
I would also like to know the number in question please.
Please Tie this thread....My computer is grinding to a halt trying to pull it up...
Thanks
juGeneral announcement and disclaimer **especially to anybody who is "new" on this board.**
My goal in coming here is to help my brothers and sisters in Christ worship God and fulfill the Great Commission.
And I have said before and I will say again...
What we need at BBC/SBC/all the denominations in 2007 is:
a major revival.
I don't mean one of those "revival in a box" things that can be bought at the book store complete with powerpoint, bookmarks, handouts, study guides, etc.
I'm not casting aspersions on those materials. Those have helped many churches for many years.
What I'm saying is we need **more** than that.
We need something like in the book of Acts and they prayed and the **ground quaked**.
I believe that so many of us are so far away from where God wants us Christians to be that if we think the solution is to get rid of our leaders and get new (human) leaders we will simply find ourself in the same/worse problem with fewer members (a loss of the people who like the previous --mortal--leaders).
What we all need to do is to get rid of our current desire to follow our own desires and get back to following God.
This is not to cast aspersions on any current leaders any where. Leadership is a difficult task.
It is not the leaders' fault that us sheep have gotten so off course.
I believe that BBC is big enough to start a revival in the SBC. I believe the SBC is big enough to start a revival with protestants, etc.
Thank you for your attention.
swtt said:
heardnuf,
"Go look at the annual finance report."
I've seen it, but your statement was that it was an "incredible amount". I think those that read in passing should know the amount if you know it. Just the lunches mind you,not all of the expenses.
Oops that should have read "just the restaurant charges" not "just the lunches" I need to re-read old posts before posting!
swtt said:
heardnuf,
"Go look at the annual finance report."
I've seen it, but your statement was that it was an "incredible amount". I think those that read in passing should know the amount if you know it. "Just the lunches mind you,not all of the expenses."
10:10 AM, January 12, 2007
Please read this before responding to TenesseeBaptist.
(TB: welcome to this board, in the name of Jesus Christ).
Everyone please take some advice from someone (me) who has been a member of internet group discussions for multiple years and has observed some of their strong and weak points as communication tools.
"Flame" defined as a written message sent through the internet which undeniably demonstrates strong negative emotion. The Bible warns us: in your anger do not sin.
On radio talk shows there is the "long-time listener, first-time caller". On the internet these people get the term newbie. This is a person who has been "lurking" (that is not a negative term at all, it is a wise thing to do, the longer the better actually). After lurking they have built up their perspective on things. Then they keep saying "one of these days I will login and say what I'm thinking."
Well, frequently, such a person will have a "straw that broke the camel's back" moment. They will finally read something that motivates them to create a user account and login and type something and hit the send button.
I give you for example anybody who would name themself "heardenuf".
(This is not meant to cast aspersions on heardenuf. I like the name.)
The problem is that frequently a newbie's first post will be a flame.
In internet group discussions like this, please always be gentle to the visitors. They frequently will unload hours/days/weeks/ worth of opinions into the first post they make.
The forum does not need to be tossed about on the waves by the moods of any lurker that happens to post.
In fact there can be a group of lurking newbies that all flame together.
That is, several lurkers, totally unaware of each other will respond to the same "straw that broke the camel's back" item.
Or there can be a "cascade effect."
Several lurker's of contrasting viewpoints will be watching. One will have a "straw that broke the camel's back" moment and come on the board and flame everyone "because apples are the best fruit in the world and I'm not going to sit here and watch you ruin the reputation of apples and apple eaters and apple farmers."
But the strength of the flame becomes.... ready for this?... it becomes ***its own*** "straw that broke the camel's back" for some Florida lurkers who then feel the need to step up to the plate and tell the whole world "Oranges have vitamin C. Therefore apples are NOT the best fruit in the world."
Anyway, hope this explains to you several things that have been happening here over the months.
Happy blogging!
swtt said:
"Facts may hurt but they are not hateful."
I will agree with that. I am not afraid of the facts coming out but speculation should not be part of facts. Speculation/insenuation/innuendo/exaggeration can be harmful and perceived to be hateful.
I am not against anyone's opinion regarding Steve Gaine's, but I do think that this blog needs some level of accountability for what is posted for the world to see.
Here's some definitions so we can all be on the same page:
fact
–noun 1. something that actually exists; reality; truth: Your fears have no basis in fact.
2. something known to exist or to have happened: Space travel is now a fact.
3. a truth known by actual experience or observation; something known to be true: Scientists gather facts about plant growth.
4. something said to be true or supposed to have happened: The facts given by the witness are highly questionable.
5. Law. Often, facts. an actual or alleged event or circumstance, as distinguished from its legal effect or consequence.
innuendo
1. an indirect intimation about a person or thing, esp. of a disparaging or a derogatory nature.
2. Law. a. a parenthetic explanation or specification in a pleading.
b. (in an action for slander or libel) the explanation and elucidation of the words alleged to be defamatory.
c. the word or expression thus explained.
in·sin·u·a·tion
–noun 1. an indirect or covert suggestion or hint, esp. of a derogatory nature: She made nasty insinuations about her rivals.
2. covert or artful suggestion or hinting, as of something implied: His methods of insinuation are most ingenious.
3. subtle or artful instillment into the mind.
4. the art or power of stealing into the affections and pleasing; ingratiation: He made his way by flattery and insinuation.
5. Archaic. a slow winding, worming, or stealing in.
6. Obsolete. an ingratiating act or speech
ex·ag·ger·ate (ĭg-zāj'ə-rāt')
To represent as greater than is actually the case; overstate: exaggerate the size of the enemy force; exaggerated his own role in the episode.
To enlarge or increase to an abnormal degree: thick lenses that exaggerated the size of her eyes.
bible-in-a-year said:
"Well, frequently, such a person will have a "straw that broke the camel's back" moment. They will finally read something that motivates them to create a user account and login and type something and hit the send button."
My "straw that broke the camel's back moment" is actually many straws, but really started with the posting on the saving bellevue site and then the immediate removal of things that were harmful to christians in general. When the masked guys giving the "heil hitler salute" was posted and removed and that was equated to the deacons at Bellevue... well that was too much for me to bear. When people come to me with "facts" from the blog that are not what I would consider facts(see my dictionary post) well, then I think it's time to bring some accountability.
"I give you for example anybody who would name themself "heardenuf"."
From my standpoint, choosing a name like "luvmybellevue" or a scripture reference(I hope that name doesn't exist!) and then posting untruths or half truths would be like putting a "honk if you love Jesus" sticker on my car and then being angry at people when they honk!
"(This is not meant to cast aspersions on heardenuf. I like the name.)"
Thank you... hadenough and heardenough were taken at Yahoo.com
"The problem is that frequently a newbie's first post will be a flame."
I hope that I haven't "flamed" anyone by asking for full disclosure of "facts" posted for all to read.
Regarding tithing - If it were not for the IRS or pride, why record who gives what? If I tithe and give offerings without an official record to prove I've given, I have still worshipped if my heart is right before God and man. If my heart is not right before God and man, then it does not matter what is recorded where by whomever, I have not tithed or worshipped, I have made a tax-deductible donation. This issue minus the IRS, pride, distrust, and arrogance equals a moot issue!
TN Baptist - in reponse to your 9:25 post.
How can one come in peace and call people fools?
I agree that this blog is terrible. So much here is so distasteful. It is, after all, a reflection of man.
As ugly as this blog is, one needs to consider that it is an alternative building for those who have been shut out. It is a place to express thoughts, pray, share scripture, and ultimately get to the truth. Although this place is ugly, many would rather do this behind the walls at Bellevue. Yes, we look foolish?
No one will deny that there is a need for prayer; Incidentally, there is much scripture throughout this blog. Curiously, those in need of ministering are left here to protest despite, letters, emails and phone calls to sit and discuss in a "Matthew like" fashion. Let me ask you this - how does a man stand behind the pulpit and skew the truth and then threaten destruction to those who might question his sin? We are asked to forgive? We are reminded of God's grace. We are reminded of His mercy. In short, we are reminded of grace, mercy and forgiveness when it comes to the sins of the administration but we are also are reminded of the consequences of sin if we protest. And I quote the pulpit, "Look at me, they will soon be destroyed."
I am a sinner. I am ugly beyond reproach. I understand that the mercy I extend will be equal to the mercy I receive. However, may I suggest that I am not talking about misleading in casual conversation - Although, this is not acceptable either. I am talking about having people pray over you, I am talking about a person who is to be anointed with His Holy Love and Grace, I am talking about a man who has been chosen to stand in front of his brethren, a man who chose to take a path of deception over a path of truth. I am sorry, I find this unacceptable. I nervously defend the idea that the pulpit is a place for a man better than myself for I also fall short. The pulpit is a place to glorify God, it is not a place to hide sin. It is a sacred place to equip His Kingdom and it is not a place to protect our temporal positions.
If you choose to belittle the blog and those on it - so be it. However, show some compassion to those who lost their home. Show some consideration for those who have taken the appropriate steps to discuss and have been turned away. Pray for Sister Pam whose years of Christian service have been rewarded with alienation and indifference. Pray for Mrs. Rogers who quietly works through the loss of her husband and her church, while she digests the idea that this same church will dangle her husbands integrity with no clarification per her request. Pray for the children who are being modeled this form of Christian character when they come to worship. Pray for the children who will forever remember their early years at the church as a place where people cant get along. Dont blame the blog, rather petition the leadership.
In short, please dont call people foolish. Thank you for taking the time to listen to my position. Thank you for your prayers. May those who see fit, kindly rebuke me where I have gone wrong.
telos:
That was a beautiful post...so well said and exactly what needs to be said.
Thanks for your insight and wisdom!
God Bless You.
Telos,
Thank you for your post.
This blog is the last place anyone I know wants to be, but it has been a way for members to discuss the issues since the leadership refused to discuss them.
This whole thing is ugly but to stand by and let wrong go on inside the church is something that is worse than ugly.
I pray for the day when we can come together again as Brothers and Sisters in Christ and love each other and fellowship again with each other.
swtt,
Amen
ema,
you have mail : )
swtt, do you have the numbers for the restaraunt charges at BBC. I do not have a copy of the annual report. Thanks
Telos,
Thank you for your post. It is a dark day at Bellevue and possibly even darker for all of the other churches embroiled in similar events in their respective congregations. The flagship of the SBC is under attack and if we who stand for the ethical and Biblical standards that are far removed from society these days do not make a stand, who will? The leadership has forced many of us from our church home and each and every one is experiencing spiritual pain and grief. It is a abhorrent situation when the widow of Dr Adrian Rogers cannot sit in a service, welcomed and honored as her place should be. The division and degredation at Bellevue can be laid at the feet of Steve Gaines. I know there are others involved in his predetermined actions, however I agree that the blame should be his alone, for he is the person that has been placed to protect the church and its' reputation. Steve Gaines' sole goal is Steve Gaines. He has failed to protect the church from shame and scandal and for that he shall answer to Almighty God.
Memphis,
Sorry I don't have a copy I can give you. I would suggest going by Mark Dougharty or David Coomb's office. They can tell you where to pick up the information. If that doesn't work out, contact anyone on the Finance Committee. They can help you.
swtt, do you not have the numbers?? I do not understnad.
Mom4
Thanks for your post.
I know you are praying. This is an intense spiritual battle. And it's only going to heat up. We need to be adorned with the full armor of God.
If you don't stand for something, you'll fall for anything.
Romans 13:12
"The night is far spent, the day is at hand: let us therefore cast off the works of darkness, and let us put on the armour of light."
(offline until later)
Dear brothers and sisters, please consider reading what C.S. Lewis had to say about "The Inner Ring"
www.geftakysassembly.com/Articles/Perspectives/TheInnerRing.htm
Heb.13:13,.14 Therefore let us go to him outside the camp and bear the reproach he endured. For here we have no lasting city,but we seek the city that is to come. May the Lord use evil for good, and bring the church to humility in our time.
OOps, that's www.geftakysassembly.com/Articles/Perspectives/TheInnerRing.htm
swtt said- The amount of money Bellevue spent on restaurants last year is incredible and abusive.
REPLY- Care to be more specific and give some facts? What restaurants, how much etc? I sure hope you are talking more than the times Dr. Gaines took someone or a group out to eat.
Okay I have a few things to say.
1. I am tired of the "defenders" being accused of being the hateful ones. It is evenly spread out on both sides. Neither side is more hateful than the other, and the fact is this- I can think of 5 of us that post regularly these days that would truly be labeled "pro-SG"(there may have been more before but I am just speaking to what I know) ME, Memphis, Ace, maybejustmaybe, and 4545.
Find me evidence of how we are being hateful and we can talk.
2. I am also tired of hearing that this blog is the only voice that was available. Do none of you have telephones, or a pen and paper? Many churches have been through situations like this and didn't need the internet to do it. This is the forum you chose and so be it, but it is unfair to say it was the "only" option. There was a time before the internet, and if God wanted this to happen he would have helped you find a way.
ATTENTION!!!
A NEW THREAD HAS BEEN STARTED WHERE YOU CAN CONTINUE ALL THIS.
Thank you,
NBBCOF
Post a Comment